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馬上有請法務部部長 司法院副秘書長好 馬上部長 副秘書長委員長安兩位好 今天 召會所排的這個主題我相信兩位都不陌生 針對"},{"start":25.097,"end":52.599,"text":"沒有辦法有保護自我能力的小朋友遭到虐待並進一步發生死亡或者是重傷的結果社會上面以凱凱案發出了非常強烈的怒吼這不是今天才發生的事情過去這段時間我相信社會各界很多NGO團體甚至非常多的媽媽"},{"start":54.096,"end":60.903,"text":"站出來齊聚在台北地方法院的門口為了要關心凱凱案"},{"start":62.557,"end":87.826,"text":"大家都站出來發聲怒吼也有立法委員跑到台北地方法院加入這個抗議的行列表達人民的憤怒我覺得這都是公民表達意見健康的行為但重要的是當這些悲劇發生了以後我們的主管機關應對到底是什麼第一時間"},{"start":89.79,"end":104.037,"text":"民眾超過13萬將近14萬的公民在政策平台提出這樣的建議法務部第一時間是不予採納應該沒錯吧這公共政策的平台有寫錯法務部的意見嗎部長"},{"start":106.967,"end":125.126,"text":"呃的確是有勾到那個不予採納的現象但是我們的內文我們是有把各那個廣納社會意見今天還是不予採納嗎我們現在是採納我們有今天採納了沒有我們就是尊重我們各委員的一個提案所謂法務部沒有立場我們有自己的版本我們有在哪裡"},{"start":125.786,"end":146.426,"text":"我們在那個昨天跟明天會做一個研修的一個會議昨天跟明天會做研修的會議對 昨天有提到刑法的修正小組的一個會議那今天有在一個延伸的一個什麼時候版本要提出來我們盡速提出來什麼叫盡速提出來 今天就要審啊要等你們嗎那另外因為我們那個修法的一個要等你們嗎"},{"start":147.833,"end":170.326,"text":"需要等你們嗎 請針對問題回答 今天要不要等你們是不是可以 我們可以提出我們一個法案來當然可以 大家都在等啊 東西在哪裡那另外因為我們有在不好意思啊 請你針對問題回答好不好我問你東西在哪裡 然後你跟我講另外明天還要開會嘛 明天有那個所以今天要不要等你們今天要等你們嗎"},{"start":173.919,"end":199.019,"text":"如果委員的話我們會提出我們一個版本因為我想這個經過今天會提出來是不是明天有一個研修會對嘛所以我在一直問你今天要不要等你們嘛我剛才一直在講說5號明天有研修會所以今天要不要等你們今天就要審啦然後你跟我說你明天要開會昨天就開跟明天有兩次的一個會議是嘛所以今天要不要等你們要審檢變選嘛是今天要不要等你們"},{"start":201.018,"end":229.745,"text":"你還是沒有回答問題啊請問我的問題有很刁鑽嗎你說你昨天有開會明天要開會我們今天要審法案我說今天要不要等你們部長沒有立場喔委員如果要等我們那個法務部的一個研修的一個草案的意見那當然我們是很樂見這是拖多久啦這是拖多久啦從公共政策平台開始到現在多久啦"},{"start":232.523,"end":259.381,"text":"明天要開會那今天要不要等你們今天我再問一個問題所有委員這麼多委員的提案有沒有哪一個版本是法務部贊成的因為我看你們的書面報告我看了半天啊每一個版本你們全部都有批評那我看完了以後就剩下一個問題每一個版本法務部全部都有意見全部都批評那大家再問那法務部的版本在哪裡"},{"start":260.754,"end":275.126,"text":"今天委員提案的版本有沒有任何一個版本法務部是贊成的有還是沒有各委員的一個版本你們都尊重嘛我們會當作你們研議的嘛有沒有任何一個版本是你們贊成的有還是沒有有還是沒有我們會重整各委員的一個版本是是是啊東西在哪裡現在在還在研議嗎"},{"start":290.589,"end":304.803,"text":"我聽你講這種話講很多次了啦大家聽不下去了啦你的立法方向就是要嚴懲重罰你的立法方向嚴懲重罰你的版本在哪裡我一直問你版本在哪裡所以繼續研議嘛公共政策平台到現在多久啦"},{"start":310.506,"end":323.315,"text":"你今天在這邊還在打官腔我沒有打官腔齁這個委員我們也就在你身上你沒有打官腔把東西交出來嘛對那你把東西交出來嘛你講形容詞講空洞的"},{"start":324.352,"end":327.734,"text":"每一個委員的版本你全部都罵叫你自己拿版本出來沒有關係啦 今天你在這邊講的大家聽得下去 聽不下去每一個公民自己有自己的判斷啦好 來 下一個請示法院"},{"start":349.924,"end":355.385,"text":"請你先停一下好不好主席請他先停一下好不好現在是我的質詢時間欸我問的問題他不回答然後他在那邊故事的講你要開記者會請你等下後法務部你出去開記者會跟全民交代"},{"start":372.95,"end":387.295,"text":"我問的問題你有沒有回答還是在浪費我的時間透過直播大家都有一把尺可以看啦我們時間先暫停所以大家先冷靜下來那我們現在再繼續開始沒有主席我只要求一個最基本的規則"},{"start":388.735,"end":407.443,"text":"現在是尋答捏我問問題他不回答在那邊自顧自講他自己的部長麻煩一下因為是備詢麻煩就委員的問題去你找我部長要開記者會看你要講多久隨便你啦在那邊浪費我的質詢時間來請司法院我收到一個澄清喔是凱凱的網路爸媽澄清書阿他們有提出很具體修法的建議"},{"start":419.704,"end":435.396,"text":"但是第二點 請你看一下他們現在訴求啊廢除死刑一字決現在該怎麼辦 從司法院的觀點台灣是一個憲政民主的國家嘛現在人民發出怒吼啦"},{"start":437.842,"end":466.041,"text":"這些爸媽團體要求要廢除死刑一字決啊來 司法院可不可以告訴全體台灣的公民憲法法庭說死刑各審期一定要一字決那現在人民發出怒吼說要廢除該怎麼做告訴大家該怎麼做因為這些爸爸媽媽大家很痛心看不下去大法官的這個要求提出了這樣的訴求"},{"start":467.338,"end":488.756,"text":"台灣的人民有權利知道面對這種自己擴權的大法官現在人民能夠怎麼辦還是沒有辦法大法官說了算你們都拿我沒皮條立法院乖乖聽話人民不滿你們也沒有任何的手段可以做來 請教司法院"},{"start":490.014,"end":501.754,"text":"那個報告委員齁那個因為委員所垂詢的這個問題已經涉及到我國那個憲政各機關職權這個部分司法院呃 尊重 奇怪憲法法庭不就在司法院嗎"},{"start":503.98,"end":529.388,"text":"如果司法院沒有辦法回答那是誰要回答 行政院回答嗎還是總統賴清德出來回答這跟考試院監察院絕對沒關係啦因為有關於大法官所做的這一個判決呢就是依照我國上來的那個釋字185還有那個645的那個解釋它是有一定的那個效力的所以就是說"},{"start":530.748,"end":544.691,"text":"呃 委員所垂詢的就是說這個不是我垂詢的啊是這一群爸媽垂詢的啊他們沒有機會站在這邊請教司法院所以我們作為民意代表有機會站在這邊請教所以我幫他們請教現在該怎麼辦誰能夠怎麼辦誰拿這些大法官有皮條請教司法院我接到陳情我一定要幫他們問啦這不是一兩個人欸"},{"start":560.669,"end":587.779,"text":"是一群憤怒的爸媽他們提出這樣的訴求要我們立法委員想辦法我也在想辦法該怎麼辦現在把法庭在司法院這沒有問題嘛所以我今天拜託司法院給這些陳情的爸媽示意該怎麼辦他們能夠做什麼還是回家抱著棉被哭就可以了來請司法院"},{"start":592.052,"end":620.454,"text":"委員這剛剛已經回覆過了因為你沒有回覆啊我請教的是司法院說這些憤怒的人民該怎麼辦回家抱著棉被哭嗎司法院的立場就是尊重那個大法官所做的那個解釋啊對嘛但是人民憤怒嘛人民無法接受嘛也不想接受嘛大家都在問啊我國憲法什麼時候給大法官這麼高的權利啊手伸得這麼深啊"},{"start":623.732,"end":644.47,"text":"我之前已經請教過司法院了全世界有哪一個國家要求死刑一字決要各省級全部都要一字決你講個立法例出來給大家聽嘛大家看不懂啊不要說他們看不懂連我都看不懂啊這個判決出來第一時間我就問這個問題啦現在是他們說怎麼樣就怎麼樣"},{"start":650.956,"end":655.318,"text":"立法院拿他們沒皮條這些憤怒的爸媽也拿他們沒皮條他們現在是以為他們是台灣民主憲政的太上皇人家提這樣的陳情出來了現在我們這些掌握權力的人怎麼面對怎麼面對我該怎麼回答這些爸媽"},{"start":682.894,"end":691.179,"text":"對不起 你的陳情完全沒道理 大法官說了算我們立法委員沒有辦法 司法院也不知道該怎麼辦就是他們說了算我希望喔今天在這邊的質詢這一些爸媽所提出來的疑問所有參與這個憲判制8號的憲法法庭的大法官我希望他們都能看到"},{"start":710.888,"end":720.939,"text":"我也希望他們能夠發揮所謂憲法守護者的精神勇敢的站出來告訴這些爸媽你們能夠怎麼辦你們能夠拿我們怎麼辦今天的法律案我不知道趙薇等不等"},{"start":733.939,"end":739.608,"text":"但我代表台灣民眾黨黨團表達立場我們支持如果今天要出委員會就要出委員會好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":258,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時18分）謝謝主席。麻煩有請法務部部長、司法院副秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩部長、副秘書長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員，早安。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好。今天召委所排的這個主題，我相信兩位都不陌生，針對沒有辦法有自我保護能力的小朋友，遭到虐待並進一步發生死亡或者是重傷的結果，社會上以剴剴案發出了非常強烈的怒吼。這不是今天才發生的事情，過去這段時間，我相信社會各界、很多NGO團體，甚至非常多的媽媽站出來，齊聚在臺北地方法院的門口，為了要關心剴剴案，大家都站出來發聲怒吼，也有立法委員跑到臺北地方法院加入抗議的行列，表達人民的憤怒，我覺得這都是公民表達意見的健康行為。但重要的是，當這些悲劇發生了以後，我們主管機關的應對到底是什麼？第一時間，超過13萬、將近14萬的公民在政策平臺提出這樣的建議，法務部第一時間是不予採納，應該沒錯吧？這個公共政策平臺有寫錯法務部的意見嗎，部長？"],["鄭部長銘謙：的確是有勾到不予採納的選項，但是我們的內文有廣納社會意見……"],["黃委員國昌：今天還是不予採納嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們現在是採納，我們有……"],["黃委員國昌：今天採納了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，我們就是尊重各委員的提案……"],["黃委員國昌：所以法務部沒有立場？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們有自己的版本，我們有……"],["黃委員國昌：在哪裡？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們在昨天跟明天會做研修的會議……"],["黃委員國昌：昨天跟明天會做研修的會議？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，昨天有提到刑法修正小組的會議，那今天有在一個研商的……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候版本要提出來？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們儘速提出來。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼叫儘速提出來？今天就要審了，要等你們嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：另外，因為我們修法的方向……"],["黃委員國昌：要等你們嗎？需要等你們嗎？請針對問題回答，今天要不要等你們？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是不是可以讓我們提出一個法案來……"],["黃委員國昌：當然可以，大家都在等啊！東西在哪裡？"],["鄭部長銘謙：另外，因為我們有在……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，請你針對問題回答，好不好？我問你東西在哪裡，然後你跟我講：另外！"],["鄭部長銘謙：明天還要開會，明天有研商會議。"],["黃委員國昌：所以今天要不要等你們？今天要等你們嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會提出我們的版本，因為這個經過……"],["黃委員國昌：今天會提出來，是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：明天有一個研修會議。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以我一直問你今天要不要等你們嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我剛才一直講說，5號、明天有研修會議……"],["黃委員國昌：所以今天要不要等你們？今天就要審了，然後你跟我說你明天要開會。"],["鄭部長銘謙：昨天就開以及明天，總共有2次會議。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛，所以今天要不要等你們？"],["鄭部長銘謙：要審檢辯學……"],["黃委員國昌：是，今天要不要等你們？你還是沒有回答問題啊！奇怪，我的問題有很刁鑽嗎？你說：你昨天有開會、明天要開會。可是我們今天要審法案，我說：今天要不要等你們？部長沒有立場喔？"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果委員要等我們法務部的研修草案意見，當然我們很樂見。"],["黃委員國昌：這件事拖多久啦？從公共政策平臺開始到現在多久啦？明天要開會……"],["鄭部長銘謙：昨天……"],["黃委員國昌：那今天要不要等你們？","今天我再問一個問題，有這麼多委員的提案，有沒有哪一個版本是法務部贊成的？因為我看你們的書面報告看了半天，每一個版本你們都有批評，那我看完以後就剩下一個問題，每一個版本法務部都有意見、全部都批評，大家在問：法務部的版本在哪裡？今天委員提案的版本中有沒有任何一個版本是法務部贊成的？有還是沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：各委員的版本我們……"],["黃委員國昌：你們都尊重嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們也會當作我們研議……因為現在還在開會，我們當作修法參考。"],["黃委員國昌：是，都當作你們研議的嘛。有沒有任何一個版本是你們贊成的，有還是沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會綜整各委員的版本來做修法的參考。"],["黃委員國昌：是！東西在哪裡？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在還在……"],["黃委員國昌：還在研議嘛，我聽你講這種話講很多次了啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：但是我想我們一個立法方向……"],["黃委員國昌：大家聽不下去了啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們的立法方向就是要嚴懲重罰，我想我上次……"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛，你的立法方向是嚴懲重罰，你的版本在哪裡？我一直問你版本在哪裡？"],["鄭部長銘謙：另外，我們會把它列入第二百七十二條的問題……"],["黃委員國昌：所以繼續研議嘛，公共政策平臺到現在多久啦，你今天還在這邊打官腔。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有打官腔，委員，我們也真的很慎重……"],["黃委員國昌：你沒有打官腔，那把東西交出來嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們對這部分就是嚴懲重罰嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：對，那你把東西交出來嘛！你講形容詞、講空洞的，每一個委員的版本你全部都罵……"],["鄭部長銘謙：上次的詢答我已經有報告過了……"],["黃委員國昌：叫你自己拿版本出來……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們也是會嚴懲重罰，如果以凌虐為殺人手段，我們認為是一個殺人的特別加重事由……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦，今天你在這邊講的，大家聽得下去、聽不下去，每一個公民自己有自己的判斷啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：尤其對未滿7歲的兒童，我們都嚴懲重罰……致死這部分我們也尊重委員的提案，我們納入修法的參考……但是我們納入第二百七十二條……"],["黃委員國昌：下一個請司法院。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，請不要誤會我們的意見……"],["黃委員國昌：請你先停一下，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想我們……"],["黃委員國昌：主席！請他先停一下，好不好？"],["主席：大家先冷靜……"],["黃委員國昌：現在是我的質詢時間，我問的問題他不回答，然後他在那邊自顧自地講，你要開記者會，請你等一下會後法務部出去開記者會跟全民交代！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我有回答……未滿7歲的這些兒童以凌虐的方式的話……我們認為……"],["主席：部長，先等一下，委員，先都冷靜……"],["黃委員國昌：我問的問題你有沒有回答，還是在浪費我的時間？透過直播大家都有一把尺可以看！"],["主席：我們時間先暫停，大家先冷靜下來。我們現在再繼續開始。"],["黃委員國昌：主席，我只要求一個最基本的規則，現在是詢答，我問問題他不回答，在那邊自顧自講他自己的。"],["主席：部長，麻煩一下，因為是備詢，麻煩你就委員的問題回答就好。"],["黃委員國昌：你法務部部長要開記者會，看你要講多久隨便你啦，在那邊浪費我的質詢時間！","請司法院。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["黃委員國昌：我收到一個陳情，是剴剴的網路爸媽陳情書，他們有提出很具體的修法建議，但是第二點請你看一下，他們現在訴求廢除死刑一致決，從司法院的觀點來看，現在該怎麼辦？臺灣是一個憲政民主的國家，現在人民發出怒吼，這些爸媽團體要求廢除死刑一致決！司法院可不可以告訴全體臺灣的公民，憲法法庭說死刑各審級一定要一致決，但現在人民發出怒吼、說要廢除，告訴大家該怎麼做？因為這些爸爸媽媽很痛心，看不下去大法官的這個要求、提出了這樣的訴求，臺灣的人民有權利知道，面對這種自己擴權的大法官，現在人民能夠怎麼辦還是沒有辦法？大法官說了算，你們都拿我沒皮條，立法院乖乖聽話，人民不滿，你們也沒有任何的手段可以做，請教司法院。"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，因為委員所垂詢的這個問題已經涉及到我國憲政的各機關職權，這個部分司法院尊重……"],["黃委員國昌：奇怪，憲法法庭不就在司法院嗎？如果司法院沒有辦法回答，那是誰要回答？行政院回答嗎？還是總統賴清德出來回答？這跟考試院、監察院絕對沒關係。"],["王副秘書長梅英：因為有關於大法官所做的這一個判決，依照我國過去的釋字第185號還有釋字第645號解釋，它是有一定效力的。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["王副秘書長梅英：也就是說，委員所垂詢的……"],["黃委員國昌：不是我垂詢的，是這群爸媽垂詢的，他們沒有機會站在這邊請教司法院，我們做為民意代表有機會站在這邊請教，所以我幫他們請教，現在該怎麼辦？誰能夠怎麼辦？誰拿這些大法官有皮條？請教司法院，我接到陳情我一定要幫他們問，這不是一、兩個人，是一群憤怒的爸媽提出這樣的訴求，要我們立法委員想辦法，我也在想辦法，該怎麼辦？憲法法庭在司法院，這沒有問題嘛，所以我今天拜託司法院給這些陳情的爸媽釋疑，該怎麼辦？他們能夠做什麼？還是回家抱著棉被哭就可以了？請司法院。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員，這剛剛已經回復過了，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：你沒有回復啊，我是請教司法院，這些憤怒的人民該怎麼辦？回家抱著棉被哭嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：司法院的立場就是尊重大法官所做的解釋。"],["黃委員國昌：對，但是人民憤怒嘛，人民無法接受、也不想接受嘛！大家都在問，我國憲法什麼時候給大法官這麼高的權力？手伸得這麼深！我之前已經請教過司法院，全世界有哪一個國家要求死刑一致決、要各審級全部都要一致決？你講個立法例出來給大家聽，大家看不懂，不要說他們看不懂，連我都看不懂啊！這個判決出來，第一時間我就問這個問題。現在是他們說怎麼樣就怎麼樣，立法院拿他們沒皮條，這些憤怒的爸媽也拿他們沒皮條！他們現在是以為他們是臺灣民主憲政的太上皇，人家提這樣的陳情出來了，現在我們這些掌握權力的人要怎麼面對？怎麼面對？我該怎麼回答這些爸媽？對不起！你的陳情完全沒道理，大法官說了算，我們立法委員沒有辦法，司法院也不知道該怎麼辦，就是他們說了算！","我希望今天在這邊的質詢，這些爸媽所提出來的疑問，所有參與這個憲判字第8號的憲法法庭大法官，我希望他們都能看到，我也希望他們能夠發揮所謂憲法守護者的精神，勇敢的站出來，告訴這些爸媽你們能夠怎麼辦，你們能夠拿我們怎麼辦！今天的法律案我不知道召委等不等，但我代表台灣民眾黨黨團表達立場，我們支持，如果今天要出委員會，就讓它出委員會，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來我們請黃國昌委員代理主席。"],["黃委員國昌：你要不要請王委員？"],["主席：請問王委員有空嗎？可以代理主席？"],["王委員鴻薇：可以啊！"],["黃委員國昌：我想你們的委員在，這樣比較有禮貌。"],["主席：好，再麻煩王委員代理主席。"],["主席（王委員鴻薇代）：請吳宗憲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","王鴻薇","王育敏","張智倫","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","羅智強","林月琴","張啓楷","陳培瑜","王育敏","陳冠廷","林倩綺"],"page_start":259,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、衛生福利部、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「法官如何判死（死刑量刑準則）─ 包括被害影響陳述（訴訟參與人意見陳\n述）、教化可能性、復歸社會可能性、量刑前社會調查／鑑定，及現行司法實務如何將刑法第57\n條第7款至第10款、第59條納入量刑鑑定因子」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、併案審查(一)委\n員賴士葆等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅廷瑋等16人\n擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條\n及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員張智倫等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一\n條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(六)國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條\n文修正草案」案、( 七) 委員邱鎮軍等19 人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員王育敏等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員葉\n元之等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等21人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等16人擬具「中華民國刑\n法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}