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10:26:18","會議時間":"2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、衛生福利部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「法官如何判死（死刑量刑準則）─包括被害影響陳述（訴訟參與人意見陳述）、教化可能性、復歸社會可能性、量刑前社會調查／鑑定，及現行司法實務如何將刑法第57條第7款至第10款、第59條納入量刑鑑定因子」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員王育敏等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員張智倫等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員王育敏等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員葉元之等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員柯志恩等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【第二案（九）至（十一）如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.21971875,"end":15.235343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.590343750000002,"end":12.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.26909375,"end":18.188468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.505343750000002,"end":15.960968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.41596875,"end":21.090968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.31034375,"end":21.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.52971875,"end":22.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.54659375,"end":21.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.84596875,"end":23.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.36471875,"end":26.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.38909375,"end":31.570343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.31284375,"end":36.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.59909375,"end":47.618468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.820968750000006,"end":56.359718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.439718750000004,"end":58.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.24534375,"end":59.835968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.392843750000004,"end":68.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.89784375,"end":70.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.58096875000001,"end":74.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.88846875,"end":78.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.38159375000001,"end":79.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.83284375000001,"end":81.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.90846875000001,"end":83.02221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.42721875000001,"end":84.69284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.87846875000001,"end":85.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.78971875,"end":86.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.15659375,"end":88.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.75971875,"end":90.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.49784375,"end":91.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.16846875,"end":93.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.42971875,"end":95.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.31971875,"end":97.29846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.87221875,"end":99.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.77909375,"end":105.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.51221875,"end":107.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.65971875000001,"end":109.95471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.42721875000001,"end":112.28346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.44784375,"end":115.20284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.65846875000001,"end":116.77221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.00846875,"end":119.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.99534375,"end":121.61534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.00346875000001,"end":122.83034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.11721875,"end":124.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.14221875000001,"end":126.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.04471875000002,"end":136.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.66784375,"end":144.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.27846875,"end":151.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.80034375,"end":154.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.41596875000002,"end":160.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.44471875000002,"end":168.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.89909375000002,"end":172.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.64534375000002,"end":176.93159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.45471875,"end":178.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.82159375,"end":183.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.81659375,"end":186.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.59659375,"end":188.23784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.77784375000002,"end":191.27534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.57471875000002,"end":193.87409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.17784375000002,"end":195.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.96659375000002,"end":204.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.07909375000003,"end":207.71159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_0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早上聽了我們立法院幾位委員的這樣的一個詢答以後我是感慨很深啦 感慨很深立法院不是一個水準很高的地方但是立法院是一個多元民意的一個地方我最擔心的就是說我們今天提出來這個修法就是說叫做民意的伸張這句話聽起來真的是很可怕"},{"start":57.569,"end":68.14,"text":"為什麼說很可怕就是說民意常常像流水一樣不同的壓力團體不同的民團有它的一個主張那你站在司法部門"},{"start":71.67,"end":93.292,"text":"那你怎麼樣來採取什麼樣的一個名業我倒反而會覺得說正義要伸張啊你說虐童可不可惡可惡啊尤其是致死當然可惡啊要不要重判當然要重判啊但我最擔心的是什麼大家把那個概念給搞混掉了王一川坐在那個地方"},{"start":94.485,"end":112.24,"text":"我每天去捏他 我也是在捏他 他產生不了什麼效果啊他搞不好覺得我很討厭而已啊我一直捏一直捏一直捏一直捏捏捏到最後他搞不好輕傷一股藥而已啊搞不好我那個手段再狠一點他變重傷他有可能虐到最後他死掉了"},{"start":113.513,"end":126.234,"text":"也就是一個行為裡面常常會隨著風險的提高產生不同的結果但是主觀到底要犯意是做些什麼"},{"start":128.103,"end":147.54,"text":"我要語重心長的講啦講出在今天這樣的一個修法講出不同見解的人壓力是特別的大特別的大像剛吳宗憲委員他你也是法律人出身啊我對他的看法是我他也完全顛覆我的看法我就不認同但是也請你聽聽看你都一直認為說這個構成要件啊這個法官啊不要被他給綁住了我要跟召委報告"},{"start":155.509,"end":176.44,"text":"我們一當代法學思想在強調的就是罪行法定主義你不要以為罪行法定主義是很古老的東西你罪行法定完為什麼叫罪行法定就是我要構成要件立法者用構成要件要綁住這些法官不能讓他愛怎麼判隨著他的情緒怎麼判就怎麼判那不行啊哪怕是檢察官依法打擊犯罪起訴了以後"},{"start":183.871,"end":186.037,"text":"你起訴的罪名法官都可以變更起訴法條啊都可以變更啊那所以說 沒有這個過程要見 我才怕咧"},{"start":192.625,"end":204.289,"text":"我們今天在講說 凌虐致死可不可惡 非常可惡 民主進步黨也認為非常可惡我認為法務部一定認為很可惡啊 司法院也認為很可惡啊 凌虐把人家凌虐致死怎麼會不可惡呢那我剛看各位 你們回答之後 部長就很想去回答可是因為這個地方主戰場是立法院嘛 你們不能暢所欲言"},{"start":214.952,"end":240.632,"text":"那覆滅了又法官出身那你當然就不想多言啦那其實你們的判決書我都看過嘛你們寫的判決書是質地有深啊水準是非常高的啊可是到了立法院有時候礙於時間的因素你也不知道要怎麼說我就來進入主題啦你像譬如說以今天所提出來的你說凌虐虐童你說凌虐致死你說變成死刑跟無期徒刑我為什麼覺得"},{"start":243.829,"end":256.389,"text":"會顛覆現在的法學思潮就你去創設了一個我們一般講說殺人罪以現在來看的話在我們刑法體系個人侵害到個人法益是最高的犯罪嘛"},{"start":257.674,"end":275.259,"text":"你如果殺人罪你又沾泥,死刑無期徒刑沾泥,那你現在凌虐致死,那你創一個死刑跟無期徒刑,那你創設一個比殺人罪還更重的一個法律出來,這好奇怪,這個沒辦法說服我,我不曉得怎麼樣來說服我自己。"},{"start":279.079,"end":305.211,"text":"不能說我自己不是說我認為劣童之死是不可惡非常可惡但是體系上會錯亂所以我倒覺得刑法的正義它當然要去嚴懲但是也要符合比例原則那你用剝奪用非以奪命為目的的虐待的行為的法定型你把它設定這個極刑"},{"start":307.032,"end":330.411,"text":"負面會不會有 你會不會覺得體系混亂的問題謝謝委員我贊同那個委員的那個意見因為凌略致死 他之所以沒有構成殺人就是說他一剛開始的時候他不是一個殺人的一個翻譯是一個比較低的 就是說像那個委員講的 去捏他那所以就是說"},{"start":332.272,"end":358.948,"text":"所以說這兩個事實上他是有罪責相當的問題就是表現在他的法定刑上他是有一個層次不一樣的所以我就知道你的意思了嘛但問題你們在這邊講不清楚在立法院我告訴你你沒辦法講清楚反而你真正想我只要在立法院碰到重大爭議的法案我幾乎常常跟人家不一樣我頭腦長得奇怪還是怎麼樣我都覺得立法的東西啊"},{"start":359.915,"end":376.509,"text":"真的是不能民粹回應民意很重要但是呢但是兩邊在拉扯的時候你如果一個國家一個司法你沒有去把它守住這個整個法律的一個體系的話你會崩潰掉你真的會崩潰掉我再來舉例就好了啦"},{"start":380.097,"end":392.746,"text":"你說馬前總統執政的時候簽了兩公約嘛我也不談說兩公約要不要遵守的問題啦你那兩公約我們現在已經是內國化我們已經把它當成國內法囉那你光修這裡的話那好啦"},{"start":397.628,"end":414.838,"text":"那你兩公約裡面你講的裡面講的是在講說你締約國不得在批准公約時候其後任何時候將沒有死刑的罪行轉變為死刑好那你兩條你受罰電你這個地方修那除非你那個地方也修除非我們也去修不是這樣子嗎所以我是覺得非常遺憾的地方就是說"},{"start":425.56,"end":430.023,"text":"大家看到這些讓人痛恨的事情 其實大家心裡頭想法都一樣的啦虐童致死 我相信不管是中國國民黨 台灣民眾黨 或者民主進步黨大家都認為那個非常可惡 只是說這個法令怎麼樣來定你要定到說 虐童致死的 他就是一個刑法的太上條款"},{"start":451.337,"end":465.56,"text":"他定的比殺人罪還要重可是你又沒有辦法去說明說他的故意他不是基於殺人的故意他只是因為虐童到最後死掉了所以那個叫做帝王刑法的帝王條款你要去這樣創設道理講清楚了以後我也沒有意見喔但是大家要先講清楚喔虐童可惡虐待直系血清尊精屬可不可惡"},{"start":478.874,"end":484.218,"text":"虐童致死啦 死刑無期徒刑把父母親 把男略帶死了覺得沒有關係 比較輕一點這個也沒有辦法說服我這個也沒有辦法說服我死 我在這邊再強調尤其是中國國民黨跟台灣民眾的朋友還有我們所謂的民團你們的意見 你們的憤怒 立法院你都聽見了但是我們談的是在談一個法律的體系"},{"start":506.363,"end":526.272,"text":"你說死掉啦 照我們一般在講就是說每一次犯罪大家都講說到底衝擊到什麼樣的一個法義大一的學生最喜歡提這個所有的個人的法義集合到最後才去提到什麼什麼國家法義 那不管那我的意思就是說 你像譬如說人死掉了誰讓他死掉的如果你是碰到一個14歲以下的讓他死掉的連刑法都沒有了"},{"start":535.006,"end":552.176,"text":"死掉了可不可憐 好可憐欸你對這些家屬怎麼去做一個彌補 是喔這個時候如果說 家裡頭又沒有錢了 那怎麼辦被害人真的是很痛苦啊那如果這是致死的行為人 剛好是14歲以下的養母熊 國無賽如果碰到的是一個80歲以上的人去殺人的 你刑法設計又必檢"},{"start":562.113,"end":574.004,"text":"所以產生死亡的結果它有很多原因那這個行為人這個加害者有很多不同的態樣啊產生出來不是產生叫做必死 不會啊不然我們刑法為什麼從總則邊開始去做一個設計要講罪責"},{"start":582.133,"end":592.617,"text":"然後呢再到最後用這個過程要件把整個法律人給綁住不能讓你心情想到哪裡你覺得你很痛苦啊這個很可惡就給你亂判判處即行那也不行"},{"start":595.899,"end":613.327,"text":"那也不行所以我倒覺得說今天啊這樣的一個修法裡面啊我絕對支持啊這個強化兒童的一個保護杜絕孽童的行為我相信各個政黨大家都一樣但是讓刑法變成社會情緒的一個出口把他整個刑法的體系把它給崩潰掉善思啦我覺得這個要善思啦尤其是大家法律人都講說這個要有比例原則啊"},{"start":624.349,"end":639.593,"text":"我特別去查了不少的一個案例啊不少的一個案例啊我看最高法院有時候在講凌虐致死的部分這致死的部分他到最後也會去提升到用殺人罪去判你像譬如說我去當人家的保姆"},{"start":645.489,"end":662.362,"text":"我當保姆去把人家凌虐 把他扣毒他要把他扣毒 過夜或過午而已 也不安全也許會妨礙到他身心的一個健康健全的發展這個觸犯到刑罰那如果凌虐到最後他受傷了風險慢慢在提高有人去報警了 他怕警察追啊 好啊 沒得救 把他帶走小孩子死掉了"},{"start":675.509,"end":678.75,"text":"我看最高法院也有判處殺人罪死掉 虐童行為太陽很多啊可能是基於 我就是自己哭動而已啊有的人就是哭到就有輕傷有變成死人重傷然後到最後有可能產生死亡的結果"},{"start":693.356,"end":714.107,"text":"他因為他是一個保姆所以他有基於保證人的地位你看到他要死可能會死你去讓他死掉你不去救他你那個風險慢慢去提升這個基於保證人的地位法官會認為說那你就產生你這個跟殺人的未必故意是一樣的判處死刑這種判決我也看到了我認為這個判決很正確啊所以未必什麼都是一定要"},{"start":721.886,"end":739.899,"text":"死刑 要提升到死刑也可以我認為也可以可是去創設一個比殺人罪還更高的帝王條款真的要善失但重點還是在哪裡呢我還是覺得還是在法官給他獨立審判的空間我個人都不認為死刑是最最最嚴重的處罰"},{"start":749.062,"end":761.573,"text":"我認為最可惡的人要是我來判的話我不判死刑我判他無期徒刑讓他生不如死我們乾脆立法院來設定一個很可惡的除了死刑以外要加一個無期徒刑每天叫出來遊街示眾讓民意來宣洩這樣好嗎但可以思考喔"},{"start":776.653,"end":781.759,"text":"所以我會覺得 各位啊 今天碰到這個議題 你們都不方便講啦但是我要再強調 虐童行為要杜絕 虐童行為要重判這一題不是政治題目"},{"start":793.311,"end":801.318,"text":"這一題不是政治題目各個政黨不用去互相吐口水這個是非常嚴肅的一個議題啦就抱歉啦實在是我的才疏學淺啦不敢看夠啦剛才我其實我自認為啊我這個法學跟"},{"start":810.306,"end":834.548,"text":"那個複密 跟廳長 跟部長 跟你們比較我寫的應該都很生疏啦只是 這些基本的幾百年來法學的一個思潮還有法律人必須要嚴守的這些基本的原理啊還是要慎重啦 不然你說他可不可惡 我覺得很可惡啊要把他判到死刑 我贊成的"},{"start":835.802,"end":859.517,"text":"如果法官認為他已經提升到一個殺人的未必故意當然可以把他判給你也同樣要判處死刑也可以啊你這個基於殺人之故意直接判你殺人罪就好啊我來判我敢判他死刑啊但重點是重點是說要把他提升一個獨立的一個帝王條款都不去問他本身當初他的主觀的翻譯是什麼就是死刑跟無期徒刑兩個可以選擇這個可能"},{"start":861.584,"end":878.525,"text":"有待考慮而且跟我們整個國內法的一個會不會產生衝突我再強調一次不是要不要遵守兩公約的問題兩公約已經是國內法了那我們在修法的時候就算這個地方要過其實應該要同時是兼顧到別的法律衝突的問題以上 謝謝好 謝謝總委員那下一位我們"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":492,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時11分）謝謝召委。你要稱讚就要用麥克風，你什麼都私底下稱讚我。","請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長。"],["主席：副秘、部長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：刑事廳廳長也上來一下。我今天早上聽了立法院幾位委員的詢答以後，我感慨很深！立法院不是一個水準很高的地方，但是立法院是一個多元民意的地方。我最擔心的是，今天提出修法就叫做民意的伸張，這句話聽起來真的是很可怕，為什麼說很可怕？就是說民意常常像流水一樣，不同的壓力團體、不同的民團有他們的主張，站在司法部門，要採取什麼樣的民意？我反而會覺得正義要伸張，你說虐童可不可惡？可惡！尤其是致死，當然可惡！要不要重判？當然要重判！但我最擔心的是什麼？大家把概念給搞混掉了。王義川坐在個地方，我每天去捏他，我也是在凌虐他，但產生不了什麼效果，他搞不好覺得我很討厭而已，我一直捏、一直捏、一直捏、一直捏，捏到最後他搞不好輕傷擦藥而已，搞不好我手段再狠一點，他變重傷，有可能虐到最後他死掉了，也就是一個行為裡面常常會隨著風險的提高產生不同的結果，但是他的主觀犯意是什麼？","我要語重心長地講，今天的修法要講出不同見解的人壓力是特別大，像剛剛吳宗憲委員，你也是法律人出身，我對他的看法是他也完全顛覆我的看法，我就不認同，但是也請你聽聽看，你都一直認為法官不要被構成要件給綁住了，我要跟召委報告，當代法學思想在強調的就是罪刑法定主義，你不要以為罪刑法定主義是很古老的東西，為什麼叫罪刑法定？就是立法者用構成要件要綁住這些法官，不能讓他愛怎麼判、隨著他的情緒怎麼樣就怎麼判，那不行啊！哪怕是檢察官依法打擊犯罪，起訴了以後，起訴的罪名法官都可以變更起訴法條，都可以變更。所以說沒有構成要件我才怕！","今天在講凌虐致死可不可惡？非常可惡，民主進步黨也認為非常可惡！我認為法務部一定認為很可惡，司法院也認為很可惡，把人家凌虐致死怎麼會不可惡呢？我剛剛看各位回答之後，部長就很想去回答，可是因為這個地方主戰場是立法院，你們不能暢所欲言。副秘又是法官出身，你當然就不想多言。其實你們的判決書我都看過，你們寫的判決書是擲地有聲，水準是非常高的，可是到了立法院，有時候礙於時間的因素，你們也不知道要怎麼說。","我進入主題，像譬如以今天所提出來的虐童，你說凌虐致死變成死刑跟無期徒刑，我為什麼覺得會顛覆現在的法學思潮？就你去創設了一個，我們一般講說殺人罪以現在來看的話，在刑法體系侵害到個人法益的是最高的犯罪，如果犯殺人罪，可處死刑、無期徒刑或十年；現在凌虐致死，你給他創一個死刑跟無期徒刑，創設比殺人罪還更重的法律出來，這好奇怪，沒辦法說服我。我不曉得怎麼樣說服我自己，不能說服我自己不是說我認為虐童致死不可惡，非常可惡！但是體系上會錯亂，所以我倒覺得刑法的正義，當然要去嚴懲，但是也要符合比例原則，你用非以奪命為目的的虐待行為的法定刑，你把它設定這個極刑，副秘會不會覺得有體系混亂的問題？"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員。我贊同委員的意見，因為凌虐致死之所以沒有構成殺人，就是說他一剛開始的時候，不是一個殺人的犯意，而是一個比較低的，就是像委員講的去捏他，所以說這兩個事實上是有個罪責相當的問題，就是表現在它的法定刑上是有一個層次，不一樣的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以我就知道你的意思了，但問題你們在這邊講不清楚，在立法院，我告訴你，你沒辦法講清楚，我只要在立法院碰到重大爭議的法案，我幾乎常常跟人家不一樣，不知道是我的頭腦長得奇怪還是怎麼樣？我都覺得立法的東西真的是不能民粹，回應民意很重要，但是兩邊在拉扯的時候，如果一個國家、司法，你沒有去守住整個法律體系的話，你會崩潰掉，真的會崩潰掉。","我再來舉例，馬前總統執政的時候簽訂了兩公約，我也不談兩公約要不要遵守的問題，那兩公約現在已經是內國法化，我們已經把它當成國內法，光修這裡的話，兩公約裡面講說：締約國不得在批准公約時或其後任何時候將沒有死刑的罪刑轉變為死刑。結果兩條牴觸，你這個地方修，除非你那個地方也修，除非我們也去修。不是這樣子嗎？","所以我覺得非常遺憾的地方是，大家看到這一些讓人痛恨的事情，其實大家心裡頭想法都是一樣的，虐童致死，我相信不管是中國國民黨、台灣民眾黨或者民主進步黨，大家都認為非常可惡，只是說法令怎麼樣來訂？你要訂到說虐童致死的就是一個刑法的太上條款，訂得比殺人罪還要重，可是你又沒有辦法去說明，說他的故意不是基於殺人的故意，他只是因為虐童到最後死掉了，所以那個叫做刑法的帝王條款，你要去這樣創設，道理講清楚了以後，我也沒有意見，但是大家要先講清楚。","虐童可惡，虐待直系血親尊親屬可不可惡？虐童致死，死刑、無期徒刑；把父母親虐待死，覺得沒有關係，判刑比較輕一點，這個也沒有辦法說服我。我在這邊再強調，尤其是中國國民黨跟台灣民眾黨的朋友，還有所謂的民團，你們的意見、你們的憤怒，立法院都聽見了，但我們是在談法律的體系，一般在講的就是，每一次犯罪，大家都講到底衝擊到什麼樣的法益，大一學生最喜歡提這個，所有個人的法益集合到最後才是什麼國家法益，那個不管，我的意思是，譬如人死掉了，誰讓他死掉的？如果你是碰到一個14歲以下的讓他死掉了，連刑罰都沒有耶！死掉的可不可憐？好可憐耶！你對這些家屬怎麼彌補？是喔！這個時候如果家裡頭又沒有錢了，那怎麼辦？被害人真的是很痛苦！如果這個致死的行為人剛好是14歲以下的，驗不出傷、「糊牛屎」；而如果碰到的是一個80歲以上去殺人的，刑罰設計又必減。","產生死亡的結果有很多原因，行為人、加害者也有很多不同的態樣，所產生的不是叫做必死，不會！不然我們刑法為什麼從總則編開始設計，要講罪責，到最後再用構成要件把法律人給綁住，不能讓你心情上想到哪裡，你覺得你很痛苦、這個很可惡就亂判、判處極刑，那也不行。所以我倒覺得今天這樣的修法，我絕對支持強化兒童的保護，杜絕虐童行為，我相信各個政黨大家都一樣。但是讓刑法變成社會情緒的一個出口，整個刑法體系崩潰掉，三思啦！我覺得這個要三思，尤其法律人都講要有比例原則。","我特別去查了不少案例，我看最高法院有時候在講凌虐致死部分，致死的部分到最後也會提升到用殺人罪去判。譬如我去當人家的保母，凌虐人家，今天虐待他就抹一抹藥而已，也不會怎樣，也許會妨害到他身心的健全發展，這個觸犯到刑法；那如果凌虐到最後他受傷了，風險慢慢再提高，有人去報警，他怕被警察追，說是不救他就這樣跑掉，小孩子死掉了，我看最高法院也有判處殺人罪。虐童行為態樣很多，可能是基於我就是虐待你而已，而有的人就是可惡，到最後致輕傷，有的變成使人重傷，到最後有可能產生死亡的結果。因為他是一個保母，所以他有基於保證人的地位，你看到他要死、可能會死，你卻讓他死掉，你不去救他，那個風險慢慢提升。基於保證人的地位，法官會認為那就產生你這跟殺人的未必故意是一樣的，判處死刑。這種判決我也看到了，我認為這個判決很正確。","所以未必什麼都是一定要死刑，要提升到死刑也可以，我認為也可以，可是去創設一個比殺人罪還更高的帝王條款，真的要三思，但重點還是在哪裡？我覺得還是在於法官、給他獨立審判的空間，我個人都不認為死刑是最最嚴重的處罰，我認為最可惡的人，要是我來判的話，我不判死刑，我就判他無期徒刑，讓他生不如死。乾脆立法院來設定一個針對很可惡的，除了死刑以外，要加一個無期徒刑，每天叫出來遊街示眾讓民意宣洩，這樣好嗎？但可以思考，所以我會覺得，各位今天碰到這個議題，你們都不方便講，但是我要再強調，虐童行為要杜絕，虐童行為要重判，這一題不是政治題目、這一題不是政治題目，各個政黨不用互相吐口水，這是非常嚴肅的一個議題。","很抱歉，實在是我才疏學淺，也不敢看稿，遇到你們其實我自認為法學素養跟副秘、廳長及部長比較，我已經差不多都很生疏了，只是這些基本的、幾百年來的法學思潮，還有法律人必須嚴守的這一些基本原理，還是要慎重，不然你說他可不可惡？我覺得很可惡，要把他判到死刑我贊成，如果法官認為它已經提升到殺人的未必故意，當然可以，虐童的要把他判處死刑也可以啊！你基於殺人之故意，直接判你殺人罪就好啦！我來判，我敢判他死刑啊！但重點是要把它提升到是一個獨立的帝王條款，都不去問他本身當初的主觀犯意是什麼，就是死刑跟無期徒刑兩個可以選擇，這個可能有待考慮，而且跟我們整個國內法會不會產生衝突？我再強調一次，不是要不要遵守兩公約的問題，兩公約已經是國內法了，那我們在修法的時候，就算這個地方要過，其實應該要同時兼顧到別的法律衝突的問題。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員。","下一位請沈發惠委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-19","speakers":["吳宗憲","王鴻薇","王育敏","張智倫","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","羅智強","林月琴","張啓楷","陳培瑜","王育敏","陳冠廷","林倩綺"],"page_start":259,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、衛生福利部、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「法官如何判死（死刑量刑準則）─ 包括被害影響陳述（訴訟參與人意見陳\n述）、教化可能性、復歸社會可能性、量刑前社會調查／鑑定，及現行司法實務如何將刑法第57\n條第7款至第10款、第59條納入量刑鑑定因子」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、併案審查(一)委\n員賴士葆等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅廷瑋等16人\n擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條\n及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員張智倫等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一\n條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(六)國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條\n文修正草案」案、( 七) 委員邱鎮軍等19 人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)委員王育敏等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員葉\n元之等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等21人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員柯志恩等16人擬具「中華民國刑\n法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145701_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}