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"text":"所以保證在這裡我重點要講到四分之一你如何要讓百姓知道嗎說實在對一個百姓來說有的有錢人聽到沒有什麼對一個百姓對我來說我做到百姓說的話是非常心疼的保證是不是你有什麼好辦法"},{"start":274.26,"end":279.904,"text":"報告委員啦,很感謝委員的關心啦尤其是這間的部分,一般聽說就是叫做爛尾樓啦但是呢,這19戶裡面已經全部賣掉了但是呢,他那時候有拆出一個叫做戒金信託,價金信託啦就是從我來講,沒有在裡面選定一間"},{"start":299.557,"end":314.143,"text":"那價金信託的部分呢我們怎麼樣從這個地方來拆解包括說未來可能要走到民事訴訟的部分相關的處理機制我可不可以牽起我們地政司長幫你報告一下好不好我們再來看要怎麼好的改革好不好因為 司長因為補充解說這樣啦那我要跟你說是覺得說我們未來這個環不是保障健康啦在我所了解啦"},{"start":329.429,"end":332.371,"text":"他的地域已經有第二台第三台了所有19號買的人完全沒有辦法請出任何什麼錢所以說在這個規定裡面,我們的手法裡面漸漸世代的變化,我們北省的人民,我覺得有信託"},{"start":355.28,"end":361.805,"text":"跟健相拿回去,我找小孩就好了結果沒去過,第五條的這個找小孩的時候小孩說,跟他去交代,跟我就給他娘,跟他一娘了了"},{"start":370.461,"end":388.966,"text":"市長你知不知道那個委員一直很關心這個案子所以那個嘉義市的部分已經在昨天有召開消保的一個調處那這個房子的話建案其實是已經蓋好可是實在還拿不出來那因為昨天因為建商他們也沒有出面所以以至於調處不成"},{"start":390.146,"end":411.459,"text":"那其實嘉義市政府之前也在有透過工會在看有沒有建商有續建的機制這個也是另外在處理的一條路那委員特別關心就是有關預收履約保證機制就是要怎麼樣照顧好我們買方保護好我們買方其實我們內政部從去年前年就開始去做一些相關的檢討"},{"start":412.219,"end":424.787,"text":"那因為那會涉及到...那相關的檢討到現在有檢討到什麼出來嗎因為現在的部分要涉及到修正預修定型化契約的規定那你現在說的就是還沒修出來的嘛那風雲都出來了風雲都出來了風雲都出來了 要不然再加27%這件事都沒辦法做到啦"},{"start":434.377,"end":437.139,"text":"市長,我們有研究要怎麼改善,不是一組研究兩組研究,部隊也要研究,職員也要研究,不是這樣啦,我們發生事情,覺得沒有辦法保障社會這件事,我們就要過程處理啦"},{"start":457.708,"end":462.09,"text":"你現在這樣在那裡煩人了,發動的聲聲鼓鼓都說我們應該要關心民生啦,的事情啦大家記住了,記住了,市長,說實在,我身為在家裡的妻子的時候我看到這個來發生的時候,我相信我們為了不是在家裡的妻子而已"},{"start":485.009,"end":486.351,"text":"很多地方都有,結果沒辦法,必須沒辦法啦!市長,在這裡我也知道你還沒提出啦,我先跟你在這裡談到的時候,我問你多久可以提出?"},{"start":505.209,"end":511.771,"text":"我們現在已經說了差不多了,存一些細節再去處理我老公啦!因為我三個月內,我們有一個方案三個月喔?只有三個月以來,如果發生什麼事情,他們就憑什麼不說我也是把自己的事做成這樣的案件,是不是會斷更快?"},{"start":526.195,"end":541.264,"text":"那個委員報告一下嘉義市的部分我們先請嘉義市政府協助民眾看是不是從什麼相關的法律途徑先來合理是啦,如果可以改革開放的時候可以還是可以你們看我後面不會在這裡發這麼大的脾氣啦因為說實在找的問題都找了啦這是我們覺得說我們這個說話難聽的啦,正經的啦"},{"start":555.196,"end":570.165,"text":"一定要保護健康啦所以未來一定要保護賣家的人啦我們現在的風險就是保護消費者賣家的消費者市長你剛才說三公尾你還可以提早多久"},{"start":580.171,"end":586.395,"text":"有涉及到那個消費者其實我知道啦我才不知道它有涉及這很多的問題即使我不是在這裡要幫你挖螞蟻啦它說三個月、兩個月、一個月我們負責任外省就可以負責任幫助一些人買房子"},{"start":600.083,"end":606.608,"text":"當場賣的建築可以到三天補貨啦所以市長這件事要緊好不好好謝謝委員在這我要跟我們的部長跟他討論我們今天的建築法裡面有第73條第一項的規定就是說我們這間它的建築物"},{"start":626.826,"end":630.427,"text":"能夠申請這麼多錢,但是地方為了照顧他弱勢的家庭他要去違章,要去申請,但是他那麼弱勢他沒有水沒錢,說實在也可憐所以在這個過程當中,我們台北市長83年以上"},{"start":655.145,"end":658.347,"text":"從1992年以後,有的事都沒有在認可,結果在這個過程當中,我認為如果有特殊弱勢,我們本來就要到三天後,我們中央照顧這個弱勢,出多少錢,關心多少"},{"start":681.38,"end":687.705,"text":"但是也不可以亂北部啦像這個問題當中,我覺得我們要一視同仁我們不能做爛好人啦李署長,我先跟你講一下要如何去這個問題做好全台灣合併幫的條例,來"},{"start":706.816,"end":717.051,"text":"跟委員報告,其實當時這個母法的規定本來就會預留一個預留一個就是說有特殊條款啦也就是說,我們就很了解有一些稍微偏軟啦或是說有一些地方,它有可能這個"},{"start":721.798,"end":747.553,"text":"有一些透過一個傷害 尤其是骨瘤的處啦它如果經過地震或有傷害過 它如果要停職它總不可能說 我一個停職 我的處要停卡住 還要停下來我相信我們有很多的情形是 原來這個辦法就停不住所以我們原來在這個條文裡面就是希望說你地方政府如果確實有迫切民生需要的那這一些其實就會變成說 它是本來就可以除外條款"},{"start":748.493,"end":755.14,"text":"那所以就這個部分我們也是希望讓地方政府有自己的經過自己的需要啦因為每一間市的經營確實沒工所以這一點我們為什麼在...阿那阿那台北市給他通過他中間炒九檔是阿所以... 阿那他會在一個八成覺得比較倒霉"},{"start":768.523,"end":778.772,"text":"應該這樣說啦 因為我想在很多地方他也會有一些除外條款那除外條款當然地方政府會去一時之間請請去認啦不會說一定要強制去做因為我覺得我們中央的手法是要專門照顧全台灣的百姓尤其這條是照顧全台灣百姓若是"},{"start":791.445,"end":796.79,"text":"所以我們問問,如果照顧好,既然要修緩的時候,我們就要注意,不好好的變性是一個太過親切的條款啦,好不好"},{"start":808.376,"end":815.462,"text":"因為這件事你要特別注意因為我講這樣 應该署長你做得很久了我去台南來你了解我講的問題出一台因為我們股市有正經的我們股市有正經的部分太多了"},{"start":825.111,"end":828.214,"text":"他這時候都看民生都做得好我也不需要說當這個當這個說你有遇到任何傷害或什麼的時候你就要過整個課長庭來這始終...市長我會說這樣你要去相公的主委我們要修的選不要覺得說有問題"},{"start":844.229,"end":844.469,"text":"王美惠委員的質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":348,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（9時58分）主席，請部長跟國土署署長。"],["主席：劉部長、吳署長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員早安。"],["王委員美惠：部長早安、署長早安。署長跟部長應該知道最近嘉義市跟雲林都有發生建商蓋房子的問題，說實在的，我覺得我們的百姓存錢去買一間房子，以前怕自己買房的時候會被人家騙，所以中央政府有一個信託，信託裡面有五個方法讓建商選擇，不過在我看來，這五個方法都是在保障建商，完全都沒看到在買房子之後，萬一建商倒閉或是建商沒錢可以蓋的時候，政府要如何幫助我們的百姓？尤其這五個方法不是買房子的人選擇的，而是建商自己選擇的。","尤其嘉義最近發生一件事，這個建商選擇用基金互相保的……在這個規定裡面，雖然我們沒在蓋房子、沒在做什麼，也知道他們建商有很多公司會互相作保，這間如果倒閉，他們有連帶關係的就都倒閉了。所以部長，在這個過程中，我真的看到二十幾個來我們服務處陳情的民眾，他們對我們寄予厚望，經過了解之後，說實在的，我比他們還難過，他們省吃儉用，有的人繳了80萬、有的人已經繳兩百多萬，我們有辦法保障他們什麼？老百姓認為建商有信託，所以不會怕，結果沒預料到那棟房子已經蓋到95%，已經要到手了，建商竟然倒閉。像這個問題，雖然我們沒辦法去管理建商會不會倒閉，不過我們的信保是不是應該要再修改、改進？我覺得這五個方法哪有幫助百姓什麼？部長，你有什麼好的意見能讓這些想要買房子的百姓、年輕人不要……說難聽一點叫做被騙，說好聽一點的是，建商沒錢、沒辦法繼續蓋，變成爛尾樓。部長，我講了將近4分鐘，你如何讓百姓清楚瞭解？說實在的，以80萬來講，有的有錢人聽起來覺得沒什麼，80萬對我來說，我看到百姓講到流眼淚，我是非常的心痛。部長，你有什麼比較好的辦法嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，很感謝委員的關心，有關嘉義市的這件，一般來說就是叫做爛尾樓，但是這19戶已經全部都賣掉，但他們那時候有採取價金信託……"],["王委員美惠：就是剛才我說的，他們從五個方法中選擇的。"],["劉部長世芳：是，關於價金信託，我們怎麼樣從這個地方來拆解，包括未來可能要走到民事訴訟的部分，相關的處理機制我可不可以請地政司長跟你報告一下，我們再來看要怎麼好好解決，好不好？"],["王委員美惠：司長，因為部長這樣解釋，我要跟你說的是，我們未來的法律不是保障建商，就我所了解的，他的地已經拿去借第二胎、第三胎，這19戶買的人完全沒辦法爭取任何錢。所以我們的想法是，時代漸漸的在改變，百姓認為還有信託，建商如果倒閉，找銀行就好了，結果沒想到銀行卻說：他蓋到哪裡，我們就讓他領了，把錢領光光了。司長，你知道這件事嗎？"],["林司長家正：是。委員一直很關心這個案子，所以嘉義市已經在昨天召開消保的調處，這個房子的建案其實已經蓋好了，可是使照還拿不出來，昨天因為建商也沒有出面，以致於調處不成，其實嘉義市政府之前也曾透過公會在看有沒有建商有續建的機制，這也是另外在處理的一條路。","委員特別關心有關預售屋履約保證機制，就是要怎麼樣照顧好我們買方、保護好我們買方，其實我們內政部從去年、前年就開始去做一些相關的檢討，因為那會涉及到……"],["王委員美惠：做了相關的檢討，到現在有檢討什麼出來嗎？"],["林司長家正：有，因為現在的部分涉及到修正預售屋定型化契約的規定。"],["王委員美惠：你現在這樣說就是還沒修出來嘛！"],["林司長家正：方向都出來了、方向都出來了。"],["王委員美惠：方向都出來了？不過對嘉義市發生的這件事都沒有幫助，司長。"],["林司長家正：嘉義市的建案……"],["王委員美惠：我們有去研究要怎麼改善，不是說一句研究、兩句研究，半年也要研究、一年也要研究，不是這樣啦！一旦發生事情，如果覺得沒辦法保障到消費者的時候，我們就要趕快處理，對不對？你現在這樣等於落人口實，別黨口口聲聲說我們應該關心民生的事情，結果呢？司長，說實在的，我身為嘉義市的民代，我看到發生這個事情的時候，我相信爛尾樓不是只有嘉義市有而已，其實很多地方都有，但是百姓真的沒辦法了啦！司長，我也知道你還沒提出來，本席跟你在這裡探討，你多久可以提出？"],["林司長家正：我們現在已經說得差不多了，剩一些細節還要處理。"],["王委員美惠：多久？"],["林司長家正：委員，請給我們三個月的時間，我們會有個方案出來。"],["王委員美惠：三個月？"],["林司長家正：是。"],["王委員美惠：三個月以內如果再發生什麼事情，不就只能鼻子摸一摸的說我也是跟嘉義市一樣的這些案件？所以是不是可以再快一點？"],["林司長家正：委員，報告一下，關於嘉義市的部分，我們先請嘉義市政府協助民眾，看是不是從什麼相關的法律途徑先來處理。"],["王委員美惠：司長，如果問題可以解決，讓他們拿錢回來還是可以進去住，我王美惠不會在這裡發這麼大的脾氣啦！因為說實在的，該找的問題都找了啦，只是我們會覺得，說難聽一點，這個是訂假的、訂來保護建商的啦！所以未來一定要訂定保護買房子的人的規定。"],["林司長家正：我們現在的方向就是保護消費者、買房子的消費者。"],["王委員美惠：司長，你剛剛說三個月，你可以再提早多久？"],["林司長家正：兩個月，因為這有涉及到消費者……"],["王委員美惠：我知道啦！我怎麼會不知道有涉及這麼大的問題？我不是在這裡跟你討價還價，你說三個月、兩個月、一個月，我們早日完成就可以早日幫助一些買房子遇到不好建商的百姓，就可以幫忙他們、保護他們，所以司長，這件事情要快點處理，好不好？"],["林司長家正：好，謝謝委員。"],["王委員美惠：接下來本席要跟部長討論建築法第七十三條第一項的規定，就是說原則上他的建築物可以申請接水、接電，但是地方為了照顧比較弱勢的家庭，他有違章建築，他要去申請，但是他比較弱勢，他沒水、沒電，說實在也很可憐，所以在這個過程當中，我們臺北市是訂83年以前，桃園是訂92年以前，有的是都沒有訂，不過，在這個過程當中，我覺得如果有特殊弱勢，我們本來就要去幫忙，我們中央照顧這些弱勢已經出了多少錢、關心了多少，不過，這也不能亂搞啦！在這個問題當中，我覺得我們要一視同仁，我們不能做濫好人。署長，本席跟你說了這些，對於這個問題要如何做到全臺灣都公平？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實當時這個母法的規定本來就會預留一個，就是說有特殊條款，我們了解有一些是屬於比較偏遠的，或是有些地方可能是透過損害的部分，尤其是舊有的房子，如果它有經過地震而有損害，如果要重接，總不可能說我要重接，我的房子要打掉再重來，我相信我們有很多情形是原本這個母法就訂不到的，所以我們原本在這個條文裡面就是希望，地方政府如果確實有迫切民生需要，這些其實就會變成本來就可以是除外條款，所以就這個部分，我們也是希望讓地方政府能夠根據自己的需要，因為每個縣市的情形確實不一樣，所以這一點是我們為什麼……"],["王委員美惠：臺北市跟桃園相差將近9年。"],["吳署長欣修：是的，所以……"],["王委員美惠：有的百姓可能會覺得怎麼這麼倒楣。"],["吳署長欣修：應該這樣說，因為我想在很多地方也會有一些除外條款，而除外條款，當然地方政府會依實際情形去認定，不會說一定要強制去做。"],["王委員美惠：署長，我覺得我們中央的修法是要專門照顧全臺灣的百姓，尤其這一條是要照顧全臺灣的百姓、弱勢族群，所以我們希望能夠照顧得更好，既然我們要修法就要注意，不要讓它變成一個太過隨便立法的條款，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：對，這個部分我們會特別注意。"],["王委員美惠：這件事你要特別注意，我這樣說，署長也做了那麼久，又是來自臺南，你應該了解我說的問題是出在哪裡。"],["吳署長欣修：我了解，因為我們舊有增建的部分太多了，這確實都跟民生結合在一起。"],["王委員美惠：對。"],["吳署長欣修：也不需要說當他遇到任何損害或什麼的時候就要整個打掉重來，這是很麻煩的事情。"],["王委員美惠：署長，我跟你說，你要非常注意。"],["吳署長欣修：我了解。"],["王委員美惠：我們在修法時候，不要覺得說有問題……"],["吳署長欣修：我了解，當然今天如果是遇到有公共安全危險的，當然我們還是要……"],["王委員美惠：重點就在這裡。"],["吳署長欣修：我們也是堅守那個原則。"],["王委員美惠：好，以上，署長，這個要注意喔！"],["吳署長欣修：我了解。"],["主席：謝謝王美惠委員的質詢。爛尾樓的問題希望內政部儘速來做研議，我們不排除到時候要用專報的方式來處理。","下一位請張宏陸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-24","speakers":["牛煦庭","陳菁徽","顏寬恒","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","黃捷","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩","丁學忠"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、建築法：(一)審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查\n委員顏寬恒等21 人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員黃建賓等16\n人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯\n等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第\n九十七條條文修正草案」案、( 七) 審查委員顏寬恒等17 人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草\n案」案、(八)審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員\n陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)審查台灣\n民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二、平均地權條\n例：審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145601_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}