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﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":2037.861,"end":2039.162,"text":"二、審查司法院函請審查司法院函請審查司法院"},{"start":2054.795,"end":2056.877,"text":"議員：一、審查司法院函請審理法部分條文修正草案：一、審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":2077.978,"end":2107.978,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":2108.678,"end":2114.319,"text":"以及自己撤銷或變更還款處分來徹底解決紛爭不用像以往一樣要來來回回另外一個是要增強行政法院的審理效能我們也設置了稅務審查官因為既然要推進課稅行政法院的專業能力應該要有專業的輔助提升所以我們設置了稅務審查官參加其他國家的制度"},{"start":2136.005,"end":2155.426,"text":"另外他可以在訴訟中基於他的專業知識對於當事人證人跟鑑定人去做說明跟發問。其實我們優化了這個暫時權力保護的這個制度特別規定了這個擔保制度一個擔保制度那麼可以平衡的保護我們的租稅的保全以及人民就業的這個實效性。"},{"start":2156.54,"end":2178.365,"text":"其實為了要促進訴訟我們也規定了在稅務行政訴訟中當事人的協力義務由當事人跟法院共同來釐清楚事實的這些責任包括說當事人要協助提出資料以及沒有進行協力義務的時候相關的這些法律效果我們都有做相關的規範其次是為了要強化稅務行政訴訟的專業性"},{"start":2185.726,"end":2210.092,"text":"擴大了強制律師代理這個範圍那麼對於一審的這個稅務行政訴訟規定當事人必須要委任律師來做訴訟代理人那麼這個是關於稅審法的部分那麼行政法院組織法的部分也配合了這個審理法那麼我們去申請了這個稅務審查官包含他的任用資格、禁用規定、官職等跟職權那麼以及因應的高等行政法院跟最高行政法院這個相對的這個原額的調整另外"},{"start":2213.373,"end":2233.539,"text":"我們也參照了法案組織法這一次的修正把法官助理的這個禁用讓它更多元化所以除了原來的的聘用的話我們也增加這個願用那麼增加人員運用這個彈性這個以上是簡單報告關於這個稅務事件審理稅務行政事件審理法及行政法院組織法這份草案那請委員指導以上報告好謝謝黃副秘書長接下來請財政部政務次長李慶華次長報告"},{"start":2245.632,"end":2263.758,"text":"主席、各位委員、先進、大家好。今天會委員會來審查司法院所擬據的稅務行政事件審理法的草案以及行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案。那我們就本部涉及的業務部分來簡要說明進行指教首先是針對這個稅務行政事件審理法的草案部分"},{"start":2264.598,"end":2270.062,"text":"這個草案本身第12條到第15條它規定加強當事人的協力義務以及第25條規定設置稅務審查官第26條、28條、29條規定了行政法院應該依職權來調查課稅的事實推計稅額並自為決定因那的稅額及罰款等部分都有助於釐清課稅的真實避免案件來回於行政機關與法院"},{"start":2291.135,"end":2294.558,"text":"發揮行政訴訟終局解決紛爭的功能,本部競表贊同。對於草案第19條到24條及第31條規定,也是60納稅者權力保護法第21條規定總額主義訴訟上配套的措施部分,也有助於徵納雙方就同一個課稅事件的爭議在一次行政訴訟程序徹底解決,降低訴訟成本及程序的勞費。"},{"start":2318.237,"end":2323.859,"text":"那草案第20條就行政訴訟系署中另發現應課徵稅捐,要求稅捐監事官應與原徵送課稅處分,合併作成新處分,並就該另發現應課徵的稅捐,無論那稅務人有無爭執,無需申請複查以及提起訴願。"},{"start":2338.303,"end":2341.987,"text":"直接進入這個行政訴訟成為程序的標的這部分我們是有點疑慮覺得是不是會影響納稅務人的審極利益那我們建議應該要並於審酌不過我們本部也是尊重貴委員會審查的結果"},{"start":2353.36,"end":2366.045,"text":"第二個部分,針對行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案的部分對於第五條,草案第五條,二十條之一,二十條之二,二十條之三的規定,曾並聘用承認或者是借調現任內地稅積增機關的人員來擔任這個稅務審查官的部分"},{"start":2370.166,"end":2388.774,"text":"那我們也考量有助於行政法院審查這個帳部憑證、會計記錄以及財務報表等等資料來釐清稅務或者是會計的事實或者就課稅的基礎數額作為推計增強行政法院審理的效能這個部分本部也競表贊同那以上說明祭旗各位委員會議指教謝謝好謝謝李次長現在詢問關於上次會議議事錄詢問有意義"},{"start":2398.8,"end":2409.486,"text":"好沒有的話我們上回議事錄就確認好那麼其餘提出書面報告之列其機關如口頭補充報告其書面內容列入公報記錄"},{"start":2411.451,"end":2425.597,"text":"那麼機關代表報告完畢相關書面內容均列入公報記錄現在開始詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘標識得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10時30分截止發言登記現在請登記第一位黃委員國昌發言"},{"start":2451.349,"end":2466.874,"text":"憲律師麻煩有請司法院的副秘書長。請黃副秘書長。然後權敍部的代表。權敍部代表。委員好。OK那個廖專門委員。"},{"start":2480.035,"end":2499.697,"text":"副院長,今天審查這個有關於稅務行政案件的審理法的草案,那個會牽涉到有關納稅者權益的保護。我相信司法院非常的清楚,行政法院在處理稅務案件的時候,人民的勝訴率是非常非常低。"},{"start":2500.778,"end":2525.467,"text":"2017一七年我們在財政委員會的時候制定納稅者權利保護法那上路了以後一路觀察看起來的表現看起來的表現似乎是跟我們當初期待的差距還蠻遠的原因可能非常的多啦我們等一下再細細的討論因為如果當人民就稅務案件提起行政訴訟勝訴率這麼低的時候"},{"start":2529.108,"end":2550.27,"text":"到底行政訴訟是不是有辦法發揮公平救濟這樣子的一個目的會騷擾很多人的質疑今天這個法案看起來是蠻重要的我看你們之前也花了錢請了學者做了一個研究計畫這個研究計畫不是通常都要上網嗎?你為什麼沒公開?"},{"start":2552.689,"end":2568.757,"text":"委員報告應該會有上網,那我們回去去...你們去確認一下好不好,因為我只要上網查得到的東西我基本上都不會特別請你們提供但我就是上網查不到嘛,因為所有政府機關委託學者做的研究報告"},{"start":2570.103,"end":2585.263,"text":"那所有人花的錢這個東西就要公開嘛那這個東西公開很重要啊因為你如果認真要處理稅務行政訴訟事件審理法的話那你就要看一路以來這個法條到底是怎麼演變的嘛"},{"start":2586.284,"end":2611.942,"text":"比如說教授當初怎麼建議的司法院是怎麼審議的最後送到立法院的條文長什麼樣子在什麼階段基於什麼樣子的理由做了變更這些紀錄都很重要嗎副秘書長贊不贊成這個我完全贊成那我們回去了解因為我們好你完全贊成那我們再繼續看你們針對這個審理法的草案開了幾次公聽會"},{"start":2614.437,"end":2640.988,"text":"只有辦一次嘛8月12號的時候才辦嘛8月12號的時候除了財政部啊就負責在剋稅的代表國家高權行為啊在剋稅的公務員以外民間的人是請了幾位我上面秀給你看了啦請了五位啦"},{"start":2643.267,"end":2656.235,"text":"議會七幾個人政府機關代表68個人全部都是在代表國家行使高權行為的民間代表只有五位突然排審了這個案子以後我接到很多陳情覺得司法院怎麼辦一個工地會辦都偷偷摸摸的"},{"start":2664.738,"end":2690.834,"text":"然後民間的代表只有五位有很多人啊對我們剋稅的這件事情以及行政訴訟的這件事情啊非常的關心而且強烈的不滿強烈的不滿認為我們的司法院啊開一個公聽會是在走過水的哦民間人士只請來五個大家連參與的機會都沒有甚至啊來看一下看一下"},{"start":2692.285,"end":2711.96,"text":"連政府機關的代表啊都覺得這個公聽會召開的時間非常的緊迫啊來看一下我們財政部負稅組的代表啊主席不好意思啊今天的公聽會召集的比較急迫啊這不是我說的啊連政府機關的代表都這樣講啊這個公聽會組織稿可不可以上網這組織稿還是我去跟你們要的欸能不能上網"},{"start":2721.619,"end":2738.248,"text":"這不是公聽會嗎?還是私聽會?回去會員因為我們公聽會有蠻多的會員是不是都組織搞上網因為有一些他們與會的他們並不希望被陳述的意見那這不叫公聽會嗎?公聽會都不公開還叫公聽會喔?回去檢討這個會有困難嗎?因為有一些司法院要搞黑箱嗎?當然不是有不可以公開上網的理由嗎?"},{"start":2751.533,"end":2755.862,"text":"再往下看為了這個審理事件成立一個委員會"},{"start":2758.223,"end":2783.967,"text":"我找了半天我找不到你們研修會討論的記錄我發函給你們要結果司法院回給我的文字是這個樣子來我唸給副秘書長聽關於此部分的資料本院向來不提供因為會議討論過程結論是本院研修參考涉及決策過程的內部意見溝通或思辨資訊所以不便提供這個是理由嗎"},{"start":2789.573,"end":2797.918,"text":"因為我們的研修的這個紀錄以往的慣例是這樣你確定嗎?司法院以前我們在做民事訴訟法研修的時候啊民事訴訟法研修會的紀錄出了幾本啊"},{"start":2810.984,"end":2819.891,"text":"主秘書長你知不知道?那為什麼民事訴訟法的可以公開這個不行?沒有啦 這不是上網公開我已經發函給你們要了你們不給我欸這個研修委員會在討論法條是有什麼國家機密嗎?為什麼不能提供?"},{"start":2839.301,"end":2841.463,"text":"我們也都提供了什麼時候提供的這個研修會的紀錄有給我不是你怎麼講話在立法院裡面反反覆覆的所以我就問你嘛為什麼民事訴訟法的可以公開"},{"start":2861.937,"end":2867.001,"text":"我問一個最根本價值的問題嘛不管是事後會診成策事後為什麼要會診成策就讓所有關心這個法律的人知道這個法條形成的過程是什麼嘛這件事情有這麼困難嗎"},{"start":2890.936,"end":2893.459,"text":"回去會去檢討研議請你們公開好不好立法院裡面所有的公聽會委員會的審查院會全部都公開啊怎麼司法院自己在搞黑箱這樣對嗎委員報告應該也不至於因為後來會長成長不至於很簡單啊就把東西所有公開我為什麼會問這件事情"},{"start":2914.909,"end":2943.764,"text":"一個法案怎麼形成的特別是司法院提出來的我一定會去拜讀我特別發言去跟你們要的這個研究計畫我不是要來玩的是要來看的我要看老師們當初提什麼條文跟你們提出來的條文對照我為什麼會要研討會的紀錄因為中間有很大的落差那這個落差是怎麼發生的理由是什麼"},{"start":2944.881,"end":2957.705,"text":"完全找不到啊來我進一步請教你你們今天所提出來的這個稅務行政案件審理法除了租稅債務以外有沒有包括租稅處罰案件審理範圍啦有嘛那如果有包括租稅處罰的話當事人的協力義務在租稅處罰的要件證明有協力義務嗎"},{"start":2971.99,"end":2996.236,"text":"我們的那個協力義務包括當事人然後沒有特別去區分那個處罰跟那個所以答案是有沒有包括租稅處罰包括也許是特別強調稅審法跟民事訴訟法跟行政訴訟法不一樣的地方你如果齁因為我看這個法條當事人的協力義務包括在租稅債務我沒意見啦包括在租稅處罰"},{"start":2998.144,"end":3021.09,"text":"這可能就必須要深入討論但你們在法條完全沒區分我為什麼說在租稅處罰需要深入討論來 我們來看一下這個是最高行政法院的見解針對租稅債務跟租稅處罰兩者之間本質上面的不同最高行政法院在歷來的判決裡面寫的蠻清楚的 來看一下"},{"start":3023.24,"end":3051.883,"text":"最高行政法院的判決認為財閥相對人對於租稅處罰這件事情沒有鮮豔的協力義務這個立場司法院是不是要透過這一次審理法的修正予以辯更因為處罰那一部分並沒有確如委員所講並沒有做特別的區分所以你們是不是要藉由這一次修法去辯更最高行政法院的見解立法理由是沒有特別去講說不是啊"},{"start":3053.103,"end":3079.45,"text":"那你們提這個法案明定了當事人的協力義務而且穿透力很強喔那個穿透力啊到了無罪推定原則在稅法的領域裡面通常叫做移責無罪的原則都排除掉了欸都排除掉了欸那這租稅處罰到底有沒有適用我為什麼做這個完整的對照表給司法院看"},{"start":3080.475,"end":3090.44,"text":"因為我就很狐疑啊你們今天提這個審理法是要排除要變更最高行政法院判決的見解嗎?租稅處罰沒有協力義務變成有協力義務租稅處罰本來有無罪推定原則的適用你們這個法下去就變成沒有無罪推定原則的適用"},{"start":3105.148,"end":3120.793,"text":"你們真的有這個修法的意圖嗎?沒有準用啦我拜託法律人在上面講話不要胡說啦哪一條寫準用適用就適用嘛還準用"},{"start":3132.5,"end":3151.867,"text":"我跟委員抱歉不是啊我現在跟司法院講喔這件事情啊知識體大知識體大在租稅處罰的部分是不是要藉由這個法律的修正變跟向來最高行政法院的見解這個對於納稅權利人啊納稅義務人啊影響非常的深遠影響非常的深遠因為就你們"},{"start":3159.912,"end":3176.589,"text":"本來在上面的第14條啊第14條的這個條文其實我從當初的研究計畫裡面我沒有看到這個條文啊那顯然是在後面你們司法院研修的過程當中把條文加上去嘛"},{"start":3177.441,"end":3204.789,"text":"要不然送來立法院的版本不會蹦出來這個條文嗎那我就很好奇啊當初你們花錢請聖子榮教授做研究計畫沒有這個條文現在送到立法院裡面來的有這個條文這個條文從何而來基於什麼樣的立法考慮有沒有參酌最高行政法院判決的意旨最後把這個條文送到立法院來了"},{"start":3207.444,"end":3232.839,"text":"這些立法的資料我現在完全找不到請你們會後提供最後我要講一個很關鍵的問題什麼關鍵的問題你們要涉稅務審查官結果稅務審查官從稅政機關找人這個事情我可以直接跟你講民間團體有很大的疑慮但更重要的重點還不是這個"},{"start":3234.848,"end":3246.568,"text":"你們這個稅務審查官是有關等的吧?見認7等到9等嗎?有關等的 有關等的人可以用聘用人員條例聘用嗎?來請一下選區部的"},{"start":3248.775,"end":3268.888,"text":"有關的人可以用聘用人員條例聘用嗎?請簡單回答依照聘用條例第7條的規定有關於聘用人員他是不得充任就是列有職稱檢認兼任職稱的職務也不得兼任列有職等的職務來再請司法院的權序部的說不可以啊你們今天提來的草案這樣搞"},{"start":3271.42,"end":3276.884,"text":"是要創設黑官嗎?對啊但是聘用人員條例可以這樣繞過去喔?是要搞黑官嗎?全區部都反對了,現在司法院立場如何?"},{"start":3291.124,"end":3312.34,"text":"我們當然是希望說我們會跟全序部溝通看看不是嘛以後所有的公務機關是只有司法院可以我用偏用人員條例搞有官等的人是只有司法院可以還是全中華民國各個行政機關大家都公平都可以這樣搞來許全序部表示意見對這個條文贊成還是反對"},{"start":3316.038,"end":3339.437,"text":"基本上就是聘用條例裡面的規定,如果你符合聘用條例裡面的規定,你就可以用聘用條例去禁用人員。是,這個我了解,這不是我的問題。基本上就是說,如果有需要他要去聘用這樣子類似紀審官的,這樣職稱的人,原則上不宜用紀審官,因為他是列有職稱官等之等的部分。列有官等就不能這樣搞嘛。"},{"start":3340.097,"end":3343.981,"text":"你書面就寫得這麼清楚了嘛上來講得含含糊糊的怕得罪司法院喔司法院喔再回去想一下全中華民國是只有你們司法院有特權還是各個行政機關都可以這樣幹"},{"start":3358.826,"end":3376.716,"text":"謝謝謝謝黃委員謝謝黃副秘書長在這裡呢針對剛剛的詢談內容主席這邊先做個宣告因為關於到公聽會的部分那的確我們各方的意見需要更進一步的參酌那請司法院思考一下那在這裡呢也提醒我們委員會的委員"},{"start":3378.379,"end":3386.271,"text":"那因為根據憲法第57條啊行政院依左列規定對立法院負責包括行政院長跟各"},{"start":3387.791,"end":3411.564,"text":"行政院各部會的首長我們是質詢另外根據我們憲法第71條立法院開會時關西院院長及各部會首長得列席陳述意見所以待會我們行政院的部分我們是屬於質詢至於司法院的部分是陳述意見在這裡一併續名接下來有請羅委員志強發言羅委員志強發言"},{"start":3419.198,"end":3423.1,"text":"委員請尊重主席的職權我尊重你的八年內你主席少來這一套"},{"start":3441.789,"end":3455.056,"text":"我幫你翻白話啦今天司法院退席都沒關係啊不用你立法院啦我幫你翻白話啦我幫你翻白話欸給我我還沒開始時間已經開始啊給我計時啊對啊我還沒講完會議詢問對不對主席啊你官位是不是很大你官位有沒有很大黃國昌講完話給他回馬槍補他一槍"},{"start":3471.752,"end":3498.03,"text":"好啦隨便啦問你也沒有用啦我知道你是新宿派大弟子啦我請司法院副秘書長請黃副秘書長委員好剛剛主席講啦我們只能質詢行政院啦我不知道副秘書長你來這裡幹什麼當然委員有隨興我們都會盡量回答嘛那他說你不需要啊"},{"start":3499.13,"end":3518.442,"text":"主席都說你不需要我不知道你為什麼要在這邊我說真的對嘛今天立法院審議法案跟審查預算本來就對各院各部會有所謂質詢之權啊我們親愛的我們親愛的鍾佳冰主席又變大法官了"},{"start":3521.125,"end":3531.77,"text":"華國昌在那邊質詢還以為現欸好厲害喔嚇死我了了不起啊超級無敵強的主席啊你不要當立法委員去當大法官快一點啦第二個我想要請教一下我們的副秘書長剛剛聽到華國昌委員齁質詢啦"},{"start":3541.144,"end":3557.966,"text":"不管是說聘用條例包括說無罪推定包括說今天到底有沒有公開的讓大家公眾周知的公聽會看起來今天我們的司法院準備抱歉我覺得是不夠的喔不足的喔"},{"start":3559.257,"end":3582.538,"text":"我們是召集的研修委員會由最高行政法院院長然後各方的這個意見都有參佐啦所以我看剛剛黃國昌問你一堆問題沒辦法但是沒關係我問你一個問題喔剛剛黃委員號他有說啦他是說像司法院號來去要有關於委員會審議的討論記錄嘛結果你就說不提供嘛"},{"start":3584.65,"end":3593.238,"text":"我跟你講這是我站在你這邊你知道為什麼嗎黃國昌算什麼請問你不要講你啦任何行政機關立法院跟他要資料不提供請問你的法律效力是什麼法律效果是什麼按照這次大法官會議解釋"},{"start":3609.656,"end":3633.954,"text":"有要負什麼責任?大法官會議解釋出來了有沒有要負什麼責任?大法官會議是說因為這個是一個政治上面的這個責任我幫你翻白話你講的太好了就是沒有責任啦所以換言之你不提供資料給黃國昌算什麼?反正黃國昌也拿你沒責啊"},{"start":3635.612,"end":3650.159,"text":"就像我跟經濟部要資料 對不對我要會議資料他給三份少一份他也沒事啊他最關鍵長期還不給我請問我能拿他怎麼辦來我請教一下副秘書長"},{"start":3652.932,"end":3680.575,"text":"跟委員報告齁因為這次大法官的解釋說因為這個五院之間是共同對人民負責啦所以說將來他都要去面對人民我告訴你啊副委員長我也不再為難你啦這大法官就是憲政的毒瘤啦這樣白了今天你也不過就示範大法官的憲法判決告訴大家我不提供資料其實也沒關係"},{"start":3682.366,"end":3710.783,"text":"你真的沒關係啊我也搞不懂今天有關於我們今天審查的法案的公聽會跟委員會討論的資料到底是哪一門的秘密要保密不能給我也搞不懂啊今天納稅人給司法院來去研議法案來去找學者來寫報告來開委員會來去做所謂的相關的研修討論這些本來就是可以公開的意見啊"},{"start":3712.062,"end":3723.755,"text":"我們立法院今天本於要幫人民看守荷包的這個職責所以才來去向您來要資料想辦法去精進這樣的一個所謂的修法的過程啊結果你資料不給我們"},{"start":3725.222,"end":3750.727,"text":"然後現在你告訴我們我們怎麼去幫人民來去做監督來去幫人民去看守荷包來去幫人民去審定更精緻的法案呢所以今天在這裡我也跟副秘書長講我不認為是你的問題啦抱歉啦就像主席都可以上來跟你講啦說你沒有關係因為基本上不要講行政主席也客氣了啦什麼行政院我們對他可以質詢對你們不能質詢連行政院質詢都不行啦"},{"start":3755.945,"end":3770.708,"text":"反正質詢你今天照我們現在大法官會議解釋出來官員說謊也沒事啊請問官員在立法院說謊依照大法官目前的解釋要負什麼責任政治責任我幫你講完啦 對不對還有什麼別的責任嗎我問你有什麼責任嘛請教就教你嘛你也只能尊重我的意見啦我就幫你回答啦沒有責任嘛"},{"start":3784.707,"end":3800.631,"text":"就是大法官赤裸裸示範跟大家講說從小教你不要說謊這是一個天大的罪惡啊我們小時候教育是錯的官員今天在立法院不說謊是錯的官員在立法院說謊是天經地義的今天就赤裸裸示範這件事情啊我想請財政部謝謝副秘書長來請財政部理事長請"},{"start":3817.842,"end":3837.807,"text":"市長昨天有網友爆料說財政部推廣民眾使用的雲端發票的抽獎活動雲端種樹去一起集點樹那似乎三期活動有四位民眾重複種獎很多人質疑不公那昨天晚上我看"},{"start":3839.253,"end":3865.748,"text":"財政部發新聞稿說抽獎都在律師的見證下進行公平公正公開至於有沒有不公的行為還在查證中我想請問財政部現在查的怎麼樣報告委員目前我還在查證中還在查證效率可以快一點我們會積極請那個主辦單位趕快辦理而且我們會將查證的結果對外來公佈我現在就直接問一件事財政部應該馬上可以回答了"},{"start":3866.431,"end":3880.16,"text":"有網友爆料其中一位重複中獎的人是財政部的員工如果不是請現在好好的澄清不要傷害財政部的信譽有沒有財政部員工在裡面這部分我不清楚"},{"start":3881.762,"end":3907.062,"text":"財政部的員工你們稍微核對一下裡面的人但是我跟委員報告我們財政部的員工也是可以參加這個抽獎活動當然我不是我沒有質疑財政部員工不可以參加這個抽獎我問你是一個事實問題啊你不要跟我講昨天到現在已經一天了你連中獎的人是不是財政部員工都答不出來報告委員我真的不知道你真的不知道我真的不知道那我們還相信你的查證的能力啊連你的員工"},{"start":3908.523,"end":3925.511,"text":"議員們的名單都有,財政部的員工名單也有。議員們的名單都有,財政部的員工名單也有。議員們的名單都有,財政部的員工名單也有。議員們的名單都有,財政部的員工名單也有。議員們的名單也有。議員們的名單也有。議員們的名單也有。議員們的名單也有。議員們的名單也有。議員們的名單也有。議員們的名單也有。議員們的名單也有。議員們的名單也有。議員們的名單也有。議員們的名單也有。議員們的名單也有。議員們的名單也有。議員們的名單也有。議員們的名單也有。議員們的名單也有。"},{"start":3933.274,"end":3949.305,"text":"我等一下就請我們同仁轉資我們主辦單位馬上查證等一下給委員會我再請教齁你們新文稿我想齁第一期結束可以參加第二期第三期嘛只要繼續參加就有機會再中嘛對不對是不是是那請問這三期有多少人中獎嗯那個"},{"start":3952.301,"end":3977.031,"text":"我幫你講,如果我有講錯你幫我更正網站上來看三期中獎人數將近1700人其中1680人是抽到50元到100元的禮券只有19個人抽到特殊大獎包括iPhone、手機、吉安特、腳踏車可是這19個人裡面竟然有4個人可以連續兩次抽到大獎我想請問這個機率有多高"},{"start":3982.496,"end":4008.51,"text":"嗯,這個當然如果用一般抽獎的機率,機率其實到底是多少我不確定,但是應該是沒有那麼高的機率啊,所以我們也...好,我告訴你,你要看母數啦,對不對?因為抽獎、中獎那個連續中獎的人數四個人齁,這已經是一個所謂的數字喔,但是要看母數齁,那我想請教你,查了一天齁,第一期、第二期、第三期分別抽獎的人數是多少?應該有了吧?可以給我一下嗎?"},{"start":4011.477,"end":4018.108,"text":"議員可不可以讓我...你們昨天新聞稿有啦,報名註冊9萬多人啦,符合抽獎資格在12萬到13.6萬人嘛,這數字有錯嗎?第一期...對不起"},{"start":4027.084,"end":4031.707,"text":"請問四個人中獎兩次的機率有多少?我不知道,可能要算一下我告訴你啊,我來念給你聽好了那機率低到什麼程度啊?"},{"start":4055.922,"end":4074.192,"text":"我後來有找這個用CHAT GPT來演算那AI跟我講一個數字我也有請那個統計學的教授幫我問了一下他只是跟我講說這個已經小到基本上很難比尼出來然後我跟你講我看到CHAT GPT給我的答案你聽聽看是多少他告訴我答案將近十萬億分之一我想請教你"},{"start":4086.154,"end":4114.088,"text":"這個幾乎在生活上統計上不可能發生的事情只剩下為什麼人民會懷疑原因是什麼原因為什麼會懷疑因為在自然上基本上是不會發生的那只剩下一個可能性了嘛什麼可能性就是舞弊啊人民為什麼會覺得但機率上幾乎不可能發生所以人民會懷疑是舞弊那我要跟市長講這件事有多嚴重你知道吧"},{"start":4115.25,"end":4140.025,"text":"你知道這件事嚴重在哪裡嗎?請委員指示這件事在攸關財政部將來辦的任何活動的公信力啊是了解所以如果說今天這件幾乎在機率上不會發生的事情發生了不是舞弊就算了那你要交代清楚為什麼機率上不會發生的事情竟然發生而且不是舞弊查清楚"},{"start":4140.831,"end":4153.948,"text":"會,這個部分我們已經會盡量趕快...其實我們成本...但如果是舞弊,我跟次長講,財政部這件事情受創是非常嚴重的。這個事情不可以輕易看待。謝謝您。謝謝委員指導,謝謝。好,謝謝羅委員,謝謝李次長。"},{"start":4159.71,"end":4174.634,"text":"先作宣告今天由委員提出臨時提案稍後預計在上午11點處理如屆時委員正在質詢則於該位委員詢答完畢之後即進行處理臨時提案接下來有請省委員發會發言"},{"start":4190.331,"end":4211.525,"text":"主席我們請副秘書長有請黃副秘書長我很好副秘書長早今天我們這個主席排定來審查這個稅務行政事件審理法草案跟這個行政院組織法部分條文修正草案這個"},{"start":4213.962,"end":4242.8,"text":"在剛才幾位委員的詢答裡面大概有提了幾個可能值得大家討論的地方但是我想今天是會排這樣子的法案有關這個我們目前這個稅務行政事件的這個審理這部分我們會做這樣子的修改跟這樣子的改革其實最主要"},{"start":4244.161,"end":4254.988,"text":"我所知道的啦,個人所知道在當初這個107年5月的這個司改國事會議裡面,事實上這是司改國事會議裡面的一個重要的結論,對不對?是,好好問一下。那這個從107年到現在也經過這麼多年的"},{"start":4265.165,"end":4292.912,"text":"我們的司法院的研議那有今天終於我們在主席的排定之下是不是有機會在今天能夠審查就我們目前的這個稅務事件的這個稅務行政事件的這些相關的這樣子的法案的修改是不是能夠在今天來完成當然剛才委員所質疑的幾個部分我也是希望說能夠在今天的審查當中來釐清"},{"start":4295.342,"end":4316.732,"text":"至於說程序上面的問題,說你們為了這個修法裡面你們所召開的這個研修會,這個究竟是不是公聽會的性質,這個秘書長是不是要解釋一下你們,副秘書長解釋一下你們一般你們這樣的法案的修改,你們所召開的這樣子的研修會跟所謂公聽會的性質是一樣的嗎?"},{"start":4320.735,"end":4343.341,"text":"委員報告研修會跟公聽會的性質並不一樣研修會大概都是專家學者那麼在比較屬於內部的一個司法院的這個會議那研修會通常會持續帶狀的開開像我們研修會這個法案的研修會就開了將近兩年那可能是一二十次的會那麼"},{"start":4344.241,"end":4364.649,"text":"比較成熟之後要送到大院的時候我們會正式的法案召開公聽會那這個法案有沒有召開過公聽會有召開過一次公聽會但是研修會開了兩年對我知道研修會開了兩年那你們現在你剛才副院長意思大概就是說公聽會的部分這個內容當然他是所謂公聽那當然這個內容是公開"},{"start":4369.131,"end":4397.79,"text":"公開讓社會大家來看這才是公聽會的意義但是研修會不一樣研修會不一樣研修會這個內部的研討的意見大家可能會針對各種不同的狀況在各個每一個職務不同的立場大家會提也許甚至研修的結果是沒有結果只是提出問題也都有可能所以研修會你們的處理方式是研修會你們沒有公開但是公聽會一定要公開對不對"},{"start":4399.091,"end":4415.217,"text":"其實說實在啦你們這樣已經不錯了啦你們有召開過一次啦雖然說有他們質疑說這個民間參與的人數太少但是你看他們憲法訴訟法要修改憲法訴訟法召開公聽會嗎有召開一次嗎在這邊講得這麼大聲沒有召開公聽會自己要去修憲法訴訟法一次公聽會我們要求開一次公聽會他們都不要"},{"start":4427.27,"end":4429.035,"text":"這程序的問題啦齁那但是實際上實質上面齁剛才大概"},{"start":4434.454,"end":4456.716,"text":"有兩個問題我認為比較關鍵一個就是這一次的整個修法你有關負稅處罰的部分是不是當事人的協力義務按照你們的法案是包括在負稅處分跟負稅債務這負稅處分都包括在當事人的協力義務裡面這個部分我覺得是值得探討另外一個就是說"},{"start":4457.932,"end":4472.262,"text":"有關這個你們要新設置這個稅務審查官到底能不能用這個聘用條例來試用這個部分可能包括你們在跟考試院之間的這個"},{"start":4474.844,"end":4475.405,"text":"稅務行政事件審理法草案案"},{"start":4500.546,"end":4515.638,"text":"現行的那個技術審查官智慧財產法院的技術審查官他們也是除了借調以外也是用聘用條例來聘用嗎?有嗎?用借調是借調而已啦那借調的部分是?"},{"start":4517.602,"end":4539.258,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":4539.418,"end":4564.684,"text":"如果說進入主條的時候我們可以來討論。在整體而言,這有些爭議,在整體而言我還是要請這個今天排的這樣法案我還是要請副秘書長講一下我們這個為什麼我們不是假把行為我們去修改這個稅務行政的這些這個行政事件的處理法案。那事實上這個修法本身是一個進步,它還是司法改國是會議本身的一個結論。"},{"start":4566.124,"end":4590.963,"text":"那尤其是這個我們要落實這個總和主義的這個部分我想在這次的這個整個修法裡面我相信是有利於未來不管是這個政府機關在激增或者是這個人民有關這個納稅債務的相關的這些行政訴訟我相信是有很大的幫助啦這部分是不是能請秘書長你稍微闡釋一下"},{"start":4592.011,"end":4612.386,"text":"那個跟委員報告齁那這次主要當然是銜接那個納稅者權益保護法實施之後那麼引進總和主義那把紛爭一次解決那大部分的爭議希望在行政法院的部分就能夠確定不要像以往以往會行政法院就撤銷違法的這個這個訴訟員過去是撤銷然後再再再請稅務機關你重新重做處分來來回我像乒乓球一樣對他就就造成萬年稅單的問題對對對那就是一個一個一個一個稅務爭議他可能要拖拖了好幾年"},{"start":4621.673,"end":4622.934,"text":"議員．一、審查司法院函請審理法部分條文修正草案案案"},{"start":4648.504,"end":4662.583,"text":"那這個撤銷之後你們也沒有自為判決也沒有判決說那你到底應該是繳多少沒有啦你們就是把那個這個訴願處分把它撤銷掉之後請稅務機關你重新重新核科"},{"start":4666.152,"end":4693.16,"text":"對對對對對來來回回啦齁那所以這也是那時候市改國是會議為什麼認為說我們的這些稅務事件的審理齁這必須要改革啦齁那改革這一次我看你們大致上把這些這個總和主義齁這把把這個所謂總和主義把他明文化了齁把他明文化了把他放到這個包括第8條第19條齁我看都是的修改都是這個這個總和主義的的一個一個落實啦齁一個落實落實明文化"},{"start":4693.76,"end":4721.01,"text":"那這個改變之後他對人民的權益有什麼樣的改變我想人民不用像以前這樣子打一個行政訴訟打一個稅務行政訴訟那要緊著救濟要這樣子來來回回法院打官司行政訴訟贏了結果他只是撤銷那個複查權益回去行政主任原主任搞不好還是一樣再讓他合格那他還要再奮武一次對但是所以這個就就我們要落實這種主義的最後你如果說要"},{"start":4722.028,"end":4736.803,"text":"要不是只是單純的撤銷這個處分你要在這裡自為判決你就必須要有專業的協助你要專業一定要專業協助你法官你怎麼去算算你到最後你到底這個負稅債務是多少"},{"start":4739.505,"end":4762.47,"text":"所以你們才會因為基於這個原因所以你們要提出要設置這個稅務審查官所以是基於這樣子的這是一整套的啦也就是說我們今天如果說我們今天能夠順利大家在立法過程中把這些剛剛所提的幾個爭點大家把它稍微釐清甚至做一些文字的修正"},{"start":4763.19,"end":4791.951,"text":"這個部分我請因為我們到等一下的組條討論可能還會有一些時間請你們就剛才所講的兩個爭議的部分你們能夠事前你們稍微研究一下是不是假設例如說你們剛講的說目前智慧財產的這個事務官目前大致上是用借調的那你們是不是在這個聘用的部分你們就在文字上面雖然說過去的法令是這樣寫但是你們未來至少我了解你們未來初期的目標是用借調的"},{"start":4793.112,"end":4808.644,"text":"還是用戒掉了。聘用的是一個是一個說未來如果說在業務再擴大你們才才會才才才會使用了那這部分是不是能夠做一些做一些修訂了齁那這個我想齁這還是最後這個"},{"start":4810.693,"end":4834.619,"text":"除了我們今天要做的這個稅務事件的審理的部分我另外比較關心的還有一個問題就是我們有關這個現在的這些新興的這些虛擬資產相關的新興犯罪案的審理這個部分其實也相當專業有關這個虛擬資產新興犯罪的部分甚至原本我們現在目前我知道是"},{"start":4835.697,"end":4854.691,"text":"一些地方法院都有設置專庭或者是專股在處理商業金融金融專股有金融專股但金融專股裡面的有關虛擬資產的這些相關信心犯罪這個恐怕也不是現在的商業專股他們能夠負擔了目前當然有關虛擬資產"},{"start":4860.609,"end":4889.388,"text":"我看你們現在目前這個這個商業專股你們按照按照這個這個設立這些專庭齁你們是按照這個各級法院法官辦理案件年度司法事務分配辦法在辦的嘛齁阿裡面的規定你們其實是依據什麼樣的案子進入這狀況其實是依據法律法令齁你們按照這個付表我看到這個付表是金融專專業案件齁裡面有違反銀行法信用合作設法這個你們是以這個違反的法令作為依據啦但現在目前虛擬資產沒有專法"},{"start":4891.45,"end":4901.156,"text":"目前虛擬資產沒有專法,所以按照這個辦法他現在是沒有辦法進入這個金融專股。即使進入金融專股,這個虛擬資產的新興犯罪,他跟傳統的這些金融商業的這些專業知識他也..."},{"start":4910.026,"end":4929.599,"text":"議員．"},{"start":4930.902,"end":4946.926,"text":"謝謝委員當然跟委員報告其實虛擬資產雖然沒有專庭專股但是我們的法官學院已經安排了很多的關於這個虛擬資產的研習課程那麼讓法官們在審理這案件的時候有這方面的專業知識跟我們報告謝謝陳委員謝謝黃副秘書長"},{"start":4962.145,"end":4991.174,"text":"好,接下來我們請登記第四位中嘉賓委員上台質詢。主席、站長委員先進。列席的政府指揮官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。首先要先邀請財政部理次長。那第二段的部分呢要請司法院的黃副秘書長以及人事行政總署的蔡專委和主計總署的劉副處長。首先先請理次長。"},{"start":4993.458,"end":5006.966,"text":"委員早安早安今天的第一部案先請教最近就是前兩天發生一個大事情就是報宅6歲女童繼承了1500萬的遺產卻要被課5000萬的遺產稅請問次長知道這個新聞事件嗎"},{"start":5014.349,"end":5038.105,"text":"知道它的來源就是在10月28日司法院記者會對於現判113現判11號的判決做出了一個說明這當中我們看一下這個圖這個圖說什麼呢?說這個有一個先生他生前把股票贈予給他的配偶但是他在不到兩年內就過世了"},{"start":5038.871,"end":5066.863,"text":"那另外呢他的配偶跟他的另外的婚生子女呢通通都拋棄了繼承那以至於說呢後來查出他有一個女童是他外面的私生女所以他變成唯一的繼承人那因為他沒有拋棄繼承所以合計啊三億兩千萬的遺產因為他贈予的股票在生前兩年內贈予的都算入遺產那因此呢他合科五千萬的遺產稅請問次長對於這事情有什麼看法這樣合理嗎"},{"start":5068.356,"end":5094.305,"text":"這只能講說這是依照我們現行遺產稅證與稅依證稅法上面的規定目前是按照現行的法律在執行的是的那你覺得現行的法律我們看到他實際他留下的遺產扣掉股票實際留下的遺產可被繼承的只有1500萬但是這個唯一的繼承人沒有拋棄的六歲女童他繼承的1500萬之後要繳5000萬的遺產稅那另外呢他的夫人他的太太那個"},{"start":5095.09,"end":5096.99,"text":"議員．一、審查司法院函請審查司法院函請審查司法院函請審查"},{"start":5123.178,"end":5151.433,"text":"最後只剩下這個6歲的小孩因為你們規定嘛他生前兩年內的贈餘還是要回到遺產稅來課稅嘛好那我們看一看大法官怎麼說憲法法庭說立法的目的是為租稅公平但不能成為絞殺性的租稅什麼是絞殺性的租稅你認為大法官意思是什麼就政府不能對人民啊絞殺啊他繼承的遺產少於遠少於政府要跟他收的稅啊這是絞殺你認同憲法法庭的判決嗎"},{"start":5152.846,"end":5178.086,"text":"現在憲法法院法庭的判決我們基本上我們都尊重法院的判決要遵守啦我們都要遵守對好第二個授證配偶是繼承人那結果呢大法庭那個憲法法庭是什麼要依比例課稅也就是說如果他沒有拋棄繼承這3.2億當中他去授證也是繼承了3億的股票那這一個價值呢他要依照比例課稅你認同嗎"},{"start":5180.015,"end":5208.778,"text":"我們會以司法院的判決來做出來。好。那如果說他們拋棄繼承了,這個受證朋友不是繼承人。他拋棄繼承了,他就不用去負擔這個繼承的遺產稅了。那麼因科的遺產稅能夠轉移到對其他會拋棄繼承的繼承人去增加稅額嗎?不可以嗎?這也是司法院解釋認為是不可以的。所以呢我這裡有兩點要求。第一,我們目前的稅制當中還沒有其他由憲法法庭所形容的絞殺稅,有沒有?"},{"start":5210.031,"end":5229.291,"text":"bedingt審查實務上寄承人寄承的金額少於依法你們要跟他合克的稅額,請審查,可以嗎?好,這個我們可以來通盤盤點一下。第二跟第三就是說我們目前是採總遺產稅的稅制,但是由憲法法庭的判決,他認為這個總遺產稅我們只認定說你這些"},{"start":5232.875,"end":5253.507,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":5254.058,"end":5266.377,"text":"這樣的一個判決意思好像是說好像有印含著繼承人他繼承了多少應該有一個分攤依比例分攤這些遺產稅的這樣的意味您覺得有沒有"},{"start":5267.281,"end":5287.539,"text":"大法官的解釋應該是有這樣一個意思那就是一個分遺產稅的稅制但是這個姿勢體大請你們回去研議好嗎這個部分我們會研議但是也跟委員報告因為我們民情不同那我們目前在這個民法規範的遺產繼承的制度裡面並不是必須以主為準所以我們在設計的時候才會採這個並沒有說總遺產稅制不對"},{"start":5290.501,"end":5315.222,"text":"但是現在大法官的這個判決有這樣的意涵的時候往這個方向去研議而且很重要要開公聽會好不好會我們會來思考要不要把做這樣一個這麼重大稅制的變動好你們去研議好謝謝接下來我們請副秘書長以及兩位專門委員和副處長好所以我們從這個案例我們看一下你好憲法法庭的是人民權利最後的守門人"},{"start":5315.899,"end":5337.69,"text":"在這個案件當中我們看到經過了訴願拜訴確定然後提出了違憲申請審查然後呢廢棄判決而且宣告法律違憲立即失效限期改正這就是憲法法庭對人民權利保障的最重要的貢獻但是如果沒有憲法法庭的判現判現行的稅務事件的救濟流程你要課稅處分"},{"start":5338.936,"end":5361.962,"text":"然後呢要經過復查、訴願、行政訴訟。如果行政訴訟訴願決定後呢撤銷復查然後呢原機關可以再提起就在這邊循環。那麼請問副民長這樣的一個循環不只的對人民的一個折磨是不是就是你們這次要新創我們的這個稅務事件審理法的主要宗旨?"},{"start":5373.319,"end":5389.31,"text":"所以如果沒有今天的這個修法人民只能透過憲法法庭來救濟如果有了今天的立法未來不需要走到憲法法庭人民一樣可以透過這個事件來救濟是不是這樣所以比較起原來沒有這個事件審理法我們是往前踏出了一步"},{"start":5389.85,"end":5417.092,"text":"好 那我們看一下你剛剛講到的處理萬年稅單的問題而且法院得自行推計課稅不需要再由機關核課強化了法院認定的一個義務而且機關做成新儲分不用再是輸入是不是這是你們的主要的一個目的報告是好 那我們回家看齁但是呢你們剛剛提到兩個一個重點一個是司法事務官的能量不足啊因為目前呢目前我們的司法人員不具備稅務專業背景所以沒有辦法充分來協助推計課稅是不是這樣"},{"start":5418.035,"end":5431.066,"text":"所以你們才有要戒掉嘛,是不是?要做推計科,所以這個要非常有這個稅務審查實務經驗才可以但是呢,我也剛剛呢,我也認同,雖然呢該名委員對我有個人的偏見,但是我認為就是論事的確這裡面"},{"start":5433.888,"end":5448.281,"text":"包括由原來的稅務機關你們去商界他的專業來幫你們做這樣的一個事件處理的審理難免有一些這個立場上的問題那未來你們如何去確保不會有這種求援兼裁判的情況"},{"start":5450.046,"end":5476.252,"text":"那個跟委員報告齁,類似制度在那個那個技術審查官也存在。那麼剛開始也許也有技術審查官大概已經差不多20年了。當初確實也有這樣子的﹖你說的技術審查官是智慧財產﹖後來操作這麼久齁,操作這麼久其實反而是技術審查官在在那個法院這一邊他知道是獨立審判,反而常常撤銷廢棄他們的智慧"},{"start":5479.093,"end":5500.725,"text":"稅務上的結果方向你要說明 然後我們來看一下 你們這裡提到說怎麼徵聘稅審官第25條你要借調或聆聘 在原來你們有借調嘛 對不對 那實務上有去聆聘嗎 因為借調還是公務員稅務機關是公務員 借調還是公務員 他是7到9指等的專員 介紹過來還是7到9指等的專員 是不是這樣 有沒有用過聆聘的方式"},{"start":5501.525,"end":5526.096,"text":"目前實務上有沒有發生?沒有。根委員報告,當初本來有這樣的想法,但後來確實...那沒有,那就你們這個靈病既然沒有用到,有沒有需要再放進去,你們思考一下好不好,這我們會審查。好,那我們往下看。但是呢,你要到稅務機關去借掉人才啊,你看理事長在那邊眼睛瞪得很大,你要跟我調什麼人?為什麼?我們遇到公務機關借掉啊,原機關很痛。怎麼說?假設有一群人,假設只有10個人。"},{"start":5527.156,"end":5549.441,"text":"你們要戒掉的人當然是戒掉裡面你們認為最專業的。你們越想掉,員機關越不捨得放,是不是這樣?那你怎麼說服這個人到你們這裡來?他還是同官等啊。他有沒有升遷呢?他考慮他第一年的考期員機關打啊。他未來兩年後戒掉起碼他再回去,別人可以有機會升科長。他還是當專員啊。你們用什麼方式誘因來吸引這個人讓你們戒掉?"},{"start":5550.614,"end":5567.29,"text":"包括我們以往在技術長官的時候是介紹過來我們會多給加級這個加級是合法的嗎?那個我們人總跟我們的組織處可以這樣嗎?可以嗎?所以兩位不知道今天要討論這個事情,兩位就算了"},{"start":5569.091,"end":5573.232,"text":"這是與法符合的啦,你們可以給他比較高的加級嘛,對不對?"},{"start":5573.232,"end":5595.799,"text":"有的加薪,多的加級他願意來。但是問題是,好在他啊,他的機關首長,比如說李次長,我們10個人,你多2萬塊的加級,把這個人挖過去,他本來薪水6萬。你花了2萬挖過去,他得了8萬。其他的9個人少了1個人。欸,工作更多啦,機關怎麼同意?是不是這樣?那你們對委員機關怎麼補償?下一頁。"},{"start":5599.229,"end":5599.249,"text":"怎麼補償?"},{"start":5612.657,"end":5633.741,"text":"我告訴你,其實在學術界有一個方式,大學教授借到有義務授課,產學合作工學術有回饋金。所以通常在學界借到出去之後有返校授課的義務,而且借到單位會給原單位什麼?學術回饋金。有沒有回饋機制作為誘引請員去換同意借到?你覺得應該要不要有這個制度?"},{"start":5634.48,"end":5637.722,"text":"所以另外我很快的結束還有一個第三人提供資料的協力物你們這裡還有一個很重要的精神剛剛也提到"},{"start":5658.018,"end":5683.622,"text":"就是我們的稅務的這個行政跟稅務的審查有一個一個是補稅一個是罰是處罰對不對那稅務的處罰那稅務人他變成是怎麼樣是變成是犯罪的犯罪人啊那你們要他自己提供資料給你們所以你們在條文當中有怎麼樣有要求他協力又以不自證己罪的調和你們就你們的結論是吧要他把資料拿出來證明他有罪嗎"},{"start":5685.489,"end":5700.25,"text":"跟委員報告目前條文是包括包含一般的那個合克跟那個處罰都包含在內的協議那剛才黃昌偉也有質詢我們回去我覺得這個很重要那不管最後我們討論的結果怎麼樣我覺得"},{"start":5702.557,"end":5729.039,"text":"如果大家覺得納稅義務人有協力的義務但是基於不治政局的情況之下我們很難勉強他那思考一下我們打詐條例他這裡說的他說金融機關對虛擬資產的人員防詐措施的時候免除其業務上保守秘密之義務有些財稅資料不見得是當事人納稅義務人的帳冊有些是金融機關留有的往來資料他是第三人"},{"start":5729.946,"end":5756.572,"text":"那他就可不可以要求他有這樣的提供免除他對當事人的一個保密義務你覺得這樣子是不是比較不會讓我們去不知正己罪的衝突這個方向可不可以思考一下我們回去研究因為對當事人本身跟對第三人那可能也有一些要去檢討因為第三人來講通常其實他沒有自己有罪除非他是為被告所以他是共同被告所以他是共同協助洗錢"},{"start":5757.552,"end":5786.616,"text":"所以今天我覺得今天的討論包括從前面幾位委員不管他們的質疑態度如何我們就事論事我們這個新創法很重要但是要很慎重所以本席這邊也提出了一些補充的內容希望未來在我們委員會我會進一步的希望能夠更聽取更多的社會意見來做更審密的一個完備它的法制的立法您同意嗎所以你們沒有很急喔我是覺得完備的話我們寧可怎樣求好而不要求快同意嗎"},{"start":5787.637,"end":5788.698,"text":"好,接下來我們請吳釗偉中線發言"},{"start":5813.822,"end":5832.099,"text":"主席我有一件事要先那個會議詢問一下請教主席一個問題就是主席一直很喜歡開公聽會那這一件有沒有考慮要先開公聽會剛剛我已經宣告了喔有是不是沒有沒有我說我待會等今天的詢答發言之後我會處理"},{"start":5833.26,"end":5855.383,"text":"因為我要聽聽其他每個委員的意見所以是今天巡查完畢才會決定要不要這樣走是不是而且事實上我們有一個臨時提案大概跟主席剛剛的宣告方向上是一致的所以我覺得待會我們一起來處理好嗎就是黃委員那個提案是的因為我覺得其實不管怎麼樣召開公聽會這件事情就是論事是合乎道理的"},{"start":5855.723,"end":5869.679,"text":" ﹏也符合大家的期望﹏該怎麼處理﹏我們由委員會這邊共同來討論,好嗎?因為主席之前在上個禮拜其實一直主張要開共同會﹏包括到這個禮拜一﹏所以我想說主席應該是"},{"start":5870.74,"end":5890.489,"text":"公聽會愛好者應該這件其實我不是公聽會愛好者你說我是那個流浪犬的愛好者我會收容流浪犬這我接受公聽會是有必要不是因為愛好的關係還有就是那個禮拜一你不是一直說我不同意開公聽會我回去反覆看那個影片就可能你聽錯了我當作你聽錯"},{"start":5891.569,"end":5908.645,"text":"欸對不起你真的要跟我討論這個問題嗎我看到網路上大家幫忙整理的譯文是你的確有說過你不同意我們要在這裡談論這個問題嗎我跟你講齁你自己看你不要去看人家整理的因為我反覆看那我也是建議你自己看也可以看看人家整理的"},{"start":5909.645,"end":5911.327,"text":"最後一個會議詢問問題就是因為剛剛主席在那邊有"},{"start":5932.125,"end":5932.585,"text":"我剛剛沒有引述憲判9號,我剛剛是拿著我們的"},{"start":5954.426,"end":5982.527,"text":"立法委員首冊第14頁宣讀第57條以及第18頁第71條你可以看一下錄影帶跟主席報告一件事情如果主席剛剛講了關於來這邊是接受我們的詢問而不是質詢他們說明我想一下請主席想一想你禮拜一是怎麼對周恩來秘書長的到此為止"},{"start":5983.973,"end":6008.131,"text":"我還是要對你的詢問啊你既然詢問我要回答啊周萬來秘書長是立法院的幕僚長我們是合意製的立法委員的形成的立法院的議址在委員會跟院會秘書長都有來跟委員跟大院跟本院做報告的義務我這樣跟你說明我沒有說他沒有來的義務啊我沒有這樣講啊那我尊重你的感覺啦剛剛的第71條是得列席陳述意見沒關係啦"},{"start":6011.833,"end":6029.81,"text":"我只是說啦,做人誠信是最基本啦,至少我這樣講,至於其他的委員,從來不把誠信當一件事,說謊造謠當做人處事,那就算了,我沒有說你,那就算了。謝謝,我也沒有說你,但是我們希望大家共同尊重。請黃副秘書長。"},{"start":6041.088,"end":6050.872,"text":"兩位早安我想先請教一個問題就是說請教兩位一個問題加一個最基本的問題就是說為什麼要偵測稅務審查官簡單說就好"},{"start":6071.925,"end":6091.233,"text":"因為現在這個新法之後,為了要落實總和廚藝,而且擴大行政法院的這個審理職權,他可以自己做最後的判斷,也就是自己去核到底要多少錢,那他自己必須要有那個計算法要有這個計算的這個能力,所以他必須要有專業有這種審查稅務的這個經驗的這些輔助的人員,"},{"start":6095.134,"end":6096.095,"text":"但是我想請教一下稅務官他的來源是什麼?"},{"start":6115.069,"end":6117.23,"text":"稅務機關本身有稅務審查和合克經驗的這些人員到我們這邊來幫忙法官。稅務機關、稅務單位。"},{"start":6132.975,"end":6154.354,"text":"好,就是原本從國稅局這些稅務機關那邊過來嘛。好,那我想請教次長,這些稅審官他如果被領選上了,他在福利上面有什麼?因為剛剛中委員有請教這個問題嘛。那他們的福利會有什麼樣的不同?所以目前可能要請我們秘書長來回應,因為這個部分我們稅務機關本身不會有什麼福利。好,謝謝。好,那那個..."},{"start":6155.975,"end":6182.778,"text":"委員報告因為現在稅審官我們是參考既有那個制裁法院技術審查官他們過來以後通常我們會給他額外的這個這個這個加級那麼大概大概可以跟他原來的工作的那一個待遇有相當的這個然後通常進行以以往的這個經驗他們借調過來這個專業法院之後熟悉這個訴訟熟悉訴訟這邊操作借調往他回原單位也通常會得到不自拔著的這個機會"},{"start":6184.44,"end":6196.173,"text":"我懂,我也幹過20幾年、24年的公務員,所以我也懂這個道理。所以呢,依照草案大概戒掉是3年嘛,對不對,依照你們的規劃是3年,那它會不會再延長啊?"},{"start":6198.183,"end":6217.005,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":6219.13,"end":6237.512,"text":"目前只有行政法院而且通常情形稅務的案件可能都集中在臺北高等行政法院那最高行政法院他也有需要那目前的臺北高等行政法院有四位的是司法事務官但是他專業程度跟我們將來的稅務官當然是不一樣"},{"start":6238.673,"end":6239.654,"text":"獲得全國的反映"},{"start":6258.473,"end":6277.449,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":6278.444,"end":6306.123,"text":"就像我們禮拜一的狀況一樣有人問祝安南秘書長然後叫了兩個律師兩個行政院以前憲法訴訟案件的告訴代理人立場就已經偏頗嘛我是說在人民的角度會不會覺得說你今天法官來審理我的案子我的對照是稅務機關結果你又從那邊叫了幫手來那變成是兩個維歐我就像禮拜一的那個狀況一樣"},{"start":6307.964,"end":6313.781,"text":"在修理周恩來秘書長再找兩個律師來一起修理會不會變成讓人民有這個感覺會不會"},{"start":6316.295,"end":6340.537,"text":"委員報告齁那這一個稅審官制度是參考既有的制裁法院的這個紀審官那麼紀審官在20年前在制定的時候曾經也有人因為他也是一樣從自衛局自衛局借料過來確實也有人曾經有這個懷疑但是我們知道這個懷疑的時候我們在在內部倫理上面對我們的紀審官是高度要求這一個倫理你絕對不可以結果現在變成操作了十幾年以後"},{"start":6341.118,"end":6360.589,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":6360.629,"end":6379.542,"text":"因為我想說這部分我們將來會做嚴格的了解謝富密講的沒有錯那你引用的那個制裁局那裡也沒有問題我自己也在制裁局實習過那我要講的一個是因為這些人三年到他要回歸到原單位嘛所以他在法院的時候他"},{"start":6380.702,"end":6392.348,"text":"這是一個人性的問題你要去反駁原來的原來機關的他的一些想法甚至可能因為這樣然後讓他的以前的長官覺得困擾那這個是一個比較反人性的設計當然從從這個"},{"start":6395.469,"end":6411.63,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":6411.75,"end":6436.605,"text":"既然說每個人不是天使那你今天叫了一個將來三年後要回歸他原單位的這個人他一天回去他一定是面對還會升遷嘛就在公務機關都這樣外調回來常常就是升遷那這樣他有沒有可能持平的去看待每一個稅務案件他的獨立性夠不夠這個是我擔心的更何況我們今天那個監察院他在那個"},{"start":6437.806,"end":6461.485,"text":"108年提出的納稅人權力保護法的調查報告其實它本來就是要保護納稅人它不是保護稅務機關或保護法院為主軸所以今天這樣子的設計會不會反而讓人民覺得我之前被法官一個人K就算結果我現在被法官跟稅審官兩個人K我想次長你們有沒有什麼意見"},{"start":6463.351,"end":6487.012,"text":"我覺得委員關心這個問題當然是一般人民的想法但是如果我們今天真的優秀的同仁被借調到法院去擔任這個稅審官的話我相信他們會本於公正而且變成公平公就是合理的方式來處理這事情市長你講的都是理想就像我們覺得大法官應該是憲法的守護者但是他一連串的下來"},{"start":6488.243,"end":6507.484,"text":"我是打問號啦,那人性跟理想還是有差距像這個監察院的調查報告談到我們納保官的事情其實後來監察委員有約詢我們現任的納保官經過約詢以後他們其實都很了解納保官就扮演了一個真正符合納稅者權利保護的角色"},{"start":6509.75,"end":6528.16,"text":"我覺得我自己的了解這個狀況下有沒有可能就是說因為這些人將來還要回歸到原單位而且還要在那邊升遷有沒有可能這三年他不敢去對抗自己的原來的單位然後再來因為法官對於稅務的理解性他的專業度不夠所以反而對這些稅審官會言聽計從"},{"start":6529.821,"end":6559.181,"text":"正常狀況是這樣就像以前我行文去行政機關詢問問題他回來給我的東西當然我會列為最主要的參考但是以前我們就是用行文的方式行文你回來然後我自己再做個研判那如果說將來在法院裡面去設計一個稅審官甚至他還可以對當事人直接去詢問我跟各位保證一件事情就像這個社會永遠搞不清楚法官跟檢管官有什麼不一樣一樣人民也搞不清楚法官跟稅審官會有什麼不一樣我跟你們保證人民一定是這樣子"},{"start":6559.881,"end":6584.971,"text":"你我不會嘛但是人民一定會搞不清楚這個設計是什麼這樣會變成說大家會不會認為說是合起來一起修理這個民眾我想說這可能是兩位可能還要去思考一下的這個問題啦就會不會說我們講說是對於納稅人的權利保護結果反而到最後變成是納稅人們覺得人民們覺得我們是合起來修理他"},{"start":6585.771,"end":6608.033,"text":"他覺得我繳稅給你們付薪水就你反而結合其他人回來修理我所以我後來反而覺得剛剛那個複密所說的制裁局的部分的那個審查官到最後他變成是自己來培養然後他就是專屬在制裁局這樣我反而也許是一個更好的設計或者是說你們有沒有朝這個方向去思考"},{"start":6610.06,"end":6628.899,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":6629.079,"end":6630.14,"text":"我最後再提一個東西就是說"},{"start":6651.67,"end":6668.18,"text":"其實這次有一個就你們草案第20條是不是有提到說人民的稅務糾紛譬如說那個稅務單位要你補20萬然後你們內部救濟程序就是復查訴願之後走上法院嘛那這時候同一個稅務事件如果稅務單位發現還要再補徵5萬塊那這所以是重開一張補稅單20萬還是開單5萬然後併案一起審查是什麼樣的狀況"},{"start":6678.442,"end":6701.811,"text":"委員報告,如果說發現有別的,那是用數字變最佳的部分,再補開一個嗎?沒有沒有,他是說另行做成新處分。稅是多少?只是不需要,就是一個25萬。那你們有沒有想過說,這個新的處分他沒有經過復查訴願,他就可以取代原來的稅單。這是不是一個問題?我想請教兩位。"},{"start":6709.468,"end":6730.275,"text":"我想其實這個是基於程序經濟就像其實他的科稅基礎事實原則上大部分是相同的所以其實之前被取代掉的那個處分他已經經過複查跟訴願那我們免除的只是他起訴的前置的程序而已那後面的審極利益是完全不受影響的"},{"start":6730.695,"end":6741.006,"text":"當然啦我沒有提到省籍利益啦我只是說復查書院的這個會不會大家覺得我後面補的你補開給我的那個東西我卻漏掉了那兩個救濟的程序齁"},{"start":6742.486,"end":6770.224,"text":"好吧那所以這個東西也麻煩你們稍微注意一下因為這是我看你們草案之後我覺得這是一個問題因為他變成說新的這一塊變成他反而掃掉了他原本有原有的救濟程序後面審期我沒有意見那我跟你說齁這稅務爭議解決的方式其實還有很多種不是只有訴訟啦比如說你們那個你們107年有設置那個納稅權力保護官嘛然後行政訴訟也有一個調解"},{"start":6770.964,"end":6791.049,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":6791.309,"end":6806.122,"text":"兩位都能夠注意這個不是只有訴訟才能解決稅務糾紛還有很多其他的途徑那個對人民比較有利好不好因為一般人民到法院都還要請律師還有很多成本支出好謝謝各位謝謝副秘書長謝謝次長也謝謝我們吳昭偉也在這裡回復剛剛吳昭偉在諮詢當中所提出的關於本週一本委員會邀請的那兩位"},{"start":6816.852,"end":6834.707,"text":"是依憲法第67條,邀請社會上有關係人員到會被尋。至於說,如果有人自認為是律師的兒子,又認為律師是拿錢辦事,那純屬他個人的經驗之談,不是本席、本召委邀請他們到會的目的,是基於他們的法律專業。"},{"start":6836.465,"end":6854.464,"text":"你說的我都認同啦,是我們是依據憲法請他們來但是你們的做法其實是讓很多人不齒啦你怎麼會叫兩位來然後跟你一起修理那天羅志強委員講了一句話他說主席如果你有一根毛的公正性"},{"start":6855.225,"end":6877.385,"text":"你就不會只請這兩位來,你可以兩兆都請嘛,對不對?而不是說單請,單方面來...就請就是辦公聽會了,你就可以邀請,國民黨同意就可以邀請來參加公聽會了我依據憲法喔,你剛剛講你是依據憲法...憲法是委員會,那公聽會是各兆都可以邀請,包括委員...吳昭偉你上週也邀請了兩位法律專業人士"},{"start":6878.406,"end":6896.522,"text":"議事公正議事公正請吳宗憲召委自己把這句話回送給自己議事公正這件事情請把這句話回收到你自己身上好嗎我反對吳委員對於中委員的這種不當的指涉欸主席我抗議欸"},{"start":6897.483,"end":6898.824,"text":"接下來我們請陳委員俊宇發言"},{"start":6933.083,"end":6954.92,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們有請黃副秘書長請黃副秘書長秘書長早我很好我們今天要審查的是有關稅務行政事件的這個審理法還有我們行政法院組織法相關的條文那對於當前這個制度下稅務事件繁雜且難以勝訴的這種這個弊病做"},{"start":6958.984,"end":6969.361,"text":"判整和制度的改善那尤其我們改制與民眾息息相關那有關於納稅義務人的權利是否受到充足的保障"},{"start":6971.431,"end":6993.435,"text":"既然這部草案是由這個產官學的各界專家組成委員會研擬超過兩年的時間就是期待能夠建立起一個更具專業也更具效能的這個稅務行政訴訟的制度那未來新制上路對納稅的這個民眾來說應該也是相當有感的一個稅務改革而這一部的草案內容"},{"start":6993.755,"end":6995.076,"text":"議員：一、審查司法院函請審理法部分條文修正草案．"},{"start":7015.273,"end":7023.966,"text":"各跑一次的這個復查還有訴願訴訟那看到這一次的我們草案當中提出相關配套盡可能讓稅務紛爭能夠一次解決"},{"start":7027.642,"end":7044.259,"text":"不過對民眾來說我們這個長年被訴訟所困的最麻煩的是怕繞入這個無限的這個循環所以我想請教蜂蜜實施新之後如何來增進效率來避免訴訟的這種曠日廢時"},{"start":7047.239,"end":7066.98,"text":"公務委員報告那基於這個總額主義的這個要求那麼以往以往是採所謂爭點主義爭點主義說一個爭議點我法行政法院是審這個爭議點那其他有沒有爭議點我們法院就不管那這個爭議點爭議我覺得有問題我就把它針對爭議點把它圓拉除那個"},{"start":7068.721,"end":7094.335,"text":"但撤銷也只撤銷那個復查決定也沒有去動到原處分所以只處理那個爭點回去以後那其他爭點冒出來在原處分機關他還會再重做處分甚至原來處分可能還是對納稅一人不利那些又會再產生爭議到到行政法院行政法院再審那個爭點所以現在才總和主義說反正我就是多少你要扣我多少稅就是一個這個總額你又有個總額的答案"},{"start":7096.556,"end":7118.459,"text":" ﹏那不要在那邊去切分增點去弄,那這樣子才可以糾紛不要像以前這樣子﹏針對增點來來回行政法院跟稅店機關之間,這樣子才能夠把分層一次解決﹏快速的、迅速的給人民的權利得到保障。好,那我想請教副秘友,未來我們推行實施的這個新制會比舊制還省事嗎?"},{"start":7120.496,"end":7128.001,"text":"因為依照這個規定他在訴訟中對相關的這些爭議點你就算沒有在那個稅政機關的時候去講你在訴訟中去講甚至剛才也有講到說今天發現有其他這些稅額你也可以透過去追加的方式去清科不用再回到原稅單單位可以讓這個程序更快速對對然後雙方都可以去做兵跟追加這一個訴訟就把這一個稅務的這一真正的爭議在這邊就得到終結解決不需要來來回回"},{"start":7149.835,"end":7173.08,"text":"好,那我們這一次的這個草案當中還有另外一個重點是這個稅務事件專業性和複雜性的部分那法官或事務官對於這個課稅的基礎推計以及這個積增事務的經驗及量能有限不過客觀或是不夠這個準確的推計可能會損及到納稅義務人的"},{"start":7176.181,"end":7200.671,"text":"所以我們需要稅務審查官借重其稅務的專業及資深精力來協助我們辦理相關的審查案件而對於稅審官的資格我們看到組織法第20條之3有相關的任用規定那我想就叫做未來不管是要從稅務機關來借調或是聆聘是否會有公平競爭的標準"},{"start":7202.861,"end":7207.885,"text":"跟委員報告,那麼剛才有說明過這個稅審官是協助法院去做這些推計課稅那麼做最後到底要課多少稅這部分的計算,這個需要高度的這些審查專業所以我們現在規劃這個稅審官原則上都是已經有在行政單位操作這些經驗的來協助法院"},{"start":7226.481,"end":7247.501,"text":"所以專業性我們初期是這樣那大家剛才委員隨行的這些公平性的部分其實剛才也報告過這個制度其實是參考智慧財產法院的那個技術長官技術長官他的技術性甚至比稅務更高那但是以這幾年的20年來操作這一個質疑基本上目前已經比較少聽到"},{"start":7248.302,"end":7272.133,"text":"因為他在法院的指揮之下他對正當法律程序跟公平甚至迴避他自己自己原來所處單位的那一個處分讓他保持公平會在法院的法官的要求之下因為他終究是配屬法官的法官會知道你什麼樣的標準是他在公平審判可以接受的所以公平性有他的老老板也就是法官在那一邊所以以我們的這個"},{"start":7272.773,"end":7297.5,"text":"議員．1"},{"start":7298.206,"end":7325.787,"text":"那我想請教副秘友就我觀察未來這個稅審官的這個職務會不會是一個很搶手的職務?各位委員報告如果比較智慧我們當時制裁法院的那個因為剛才張委員有講我們有提高待遇所以以以前的經驗的話我當然不敢講百分之百都一樣但是他們是滿歡迎的以這20年來在智慧局調來這邊他們滿歡迎而且可以了解訴訟的這一塊"},{"start":7327.648,"end":7353.421,"text":"對於將來他們回到專業單位裡面去知道正當法律程序是什麼這一部分幫助其實是蠻大所以應該我們樂觀期待將來會應該是會是蠻搶手的我不敢講說絕對搶手但是以我們的以往的經驗應該是還蠻可以期待的會受歡迎另外就是參考我們這個草案的副表對於這個稅審官的員額最多是10位"},{"start":7354.341,"end":7364.847,"text":"那現有的這個四處行政法院我們預計各會分別設置多少位的這個稅審官那是否足以因應龐大的未來的這個稅務案件量"},{"start":7365.831,"end":7391.878,"text":"跟委員報告齁目前我們初步規劃我相信在不會太多啦齁因為說實話我們司法院的這些總緣額框住我們沒有太多的餘裕去用一些多餘的這些人力所以我們一定用在刀口上我們初步規劃應該也不會超過五位啦不會超過五位初步的案件但將來看案件的這個需求好那也有可能就一處行政法院可能編制只有一位左右的這個稅審官"},{"start":7393.286,"end":7395.387,"text":"因為我們那個原額編制好像是一處可以編0到10位嘛齁?0到10位嘛齁?那我們﹖"},{"start":7411.092,"end":7429.105,"text":"對,我們現在如果編定五位的話就是看起來就是會有一處可能其中會有幾處的這個行政法院是編制一個人的緣額那未來假設我們只有編制一位的緣額那遇到這個迴避的情況的這種情況我們要如何來因應"},{"start":7430.519,"end":7459.055,"text":"講那個稅務審查官是有其實有資源的這個制度所以其實因為他並不是像法官說你配在台北就一定是台北的像那個我們現在最高行政法院也有跟他目前沒有所以他需要的時候他向下面的那個法院的下級法院的這個司法事務官就借調到那個最高行政法院所以我們還是有這樣子機動調整的這些空間"},{"start":7461.735,"end":7480.786,"text":"我想還牽涉到一個問題就是未來稅審官都是來自我們稅務機關裡面的優秀精英在戒掉期限期滿之後稅審官還是要回歸到原任的稅務機關來任職如何來建立民眾對於我們稅審官的信任會站在保障納稅者的權利的角度"},{"start":7489.076,"end":7498.631,"text":"而對這個稅審官本身來說到行政法院來任職的表現是否也會影響到他未來回任之後的這個升遷的這個關係?"},{"start":7500.49,"end":7517.33,"text":"跟委員報告以目前已經有20年經驗的那個技術長官來講的話其實他到專業法院裡面的這些表現有法官會去做考核外界也會去觀察有沒有當他們所一律的這些情形他所做出來的協助法官所做出來這些的決定"},{"start":7519.172,"end":7549.172,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":7550.333,"end":7575.488,"text":"我認為適材適用未來這個是一個新制我們稅審官的編制是目前沒有的我也希望說我們有這個好的利益良善的想法能夠符合民眾的期待也能夠實際幫助到相關我們業務推動的過程裡面能夠更加順遂所以我也希望我們司法院這邊對這個部分應該是要"},{"start":7578.15,"end":7581.673,"text":"獲得更詳細的規範讓我們未來的稅政規範推動能夠符合我們目前所要的目標來邁進。好,以上謝謝。謝謝委員指教。好,謝謝黃副秘書長,謝謝陳委員。接下來有請莊委員瑞雄發言。"},{"start":7612.857,"end":7621.081,"text":"謝謝主席,有請我們司法院副秘書長黃副秘書長還有我們行政廳的高廳長還有財政部理事長黃副秘書長、高廳長跟理事長"},{"start":7638.106,"end":7650.751,"text":"三位好我想我簡單的來就教幾件事啦這個新制啊這個新制要上路啊我剛很仔細的在底下這樣聆聽啊我就認為要在"},{"start":7653.101,"end":7657.283,"text":"我記得我當年在念書的時候尤其是在修民事訴訟法的時候那個時候在學校裡面幾乎老師上課就跟你講我們這個訴訟的制度是要建立一個符合人性"},{"start":7680.42,"end":7707.586,"text":"讓老百姓覺得是一個富有溫暖的一個訴訟制度那這幾年整個訴訟制度一直大修一直修修修那今天我看到這樣的這個是有一點感慨國家科稅這個其實是一個高權行為我一科稅以後老百姓當然是哇哇叫這個什麼誠實繳稅什麼這個都是課本上講給大家聽的沒有繳到很多稅的人也應該都會喜歡聽這個"},{"start":7708.846,"end":7738.013,"text":"可是真正我們財政部這個稅卷機關好像在像老百姓這樣拔鵝毛的時候他當然會嘩嘩叫那今天有幾個問題要來救救當然你要解決這個萬年稅單這個問題因為困擾確實台灣民眾也非常久那這一次的稅務行政審理法裡面要改善的一個問題其實裡面涉及到不只這一些本席一直有一個疑問我昨天光看那個納保法二十幾條我看到最後就快睡著了"},{"start":7738.913,"end":7762.27,"text":"何況去比較你們這個新法我跟你講在我們司法法制委員會要審這部法律沒那麼簡單沒有幾個人有辦法審所以還是要先公聽這個還是要比較透明一點我們2016年我們納稅者保護法在我們通過以後在2017年正式實施把納稅者保護法定位為"},{"start":7763.191,"end":7763.471,"text":"可以可以可以"},{"start":7790.427,"end":7808.229,"text":"報告委員納保法當然就是它是著重在納稅者權利保護當然我們這一部的稅務行政事件稅審法其實保護納稅者權利也是我們的立法目的之一那所以其實兩部法律在保護納稅人權利的這一個部分是一致的"},{"start":7808.609,"end":7832.039,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":7832.079,"end":7835.703,"text":"我的核心問題是說我們整個稅增基增法還有整個納保法難道我們去修正完以後就沒有含塞到這個部分嗎?你們認為還沒有嗎?"},{"start":7854.492,"end":7860.997,"text":"我們這一部法律就是在訴訟程序的進行跟審理上做更進一步的規範。"},{"start":7863.666,"end":7883.573,"text":"我的核心問題就是說,其實剛幾個委員在問啊,像比如說那個稅保官的問題啊,那個怎麼樣去定位的這些人要怎麼樣在組織法裡面去把它做一個定位。我的問題倒都不是在這邊。我的問題是你們有沒有去思考過,這個會造成當事人之間武器不平等的問題。"},{"start":7884.773,"end":7903.994,"text":"你稅政機關啊,你本來就是非常有專業囉。我們當然也不會去講說法官對這些稅務全部都不懂,也不會啦。他也會去訓練,只是沒有像稅政機關那麼有實務經驗,每天實地在操作而已啊。可是呢,理論上來講啊,譬如說王滬密,今天這個案子,你今天是審辦長。"},{"start":7906.312,"end":7933.871,"text":"這個案子在你手上你在審的時候你本來就是要聽兩招來聽聽看你現在加一個稅保官進來以後啊我第一個我比較擔心的會造成武器不平等我為什麼怕擔心他造成武器不平等因為他是來自於稅政單位你把他借過來那個心態啊我每一次在協調你們財政部啊稅政機關在人民的一種稅務徵送的案件的時候啊我一看的時候我聽到你們的講法以後"},{"start":7934.858,"end":7960.158,"text":"我都心裡頭我都很大的一個感慨了我都會跟你們講我說像這種有些事實不明不用追殺到底啦心目中還是要有人民的一個存在啦那個一追殺到底到最後不是你為國家多賺盡多少稅收啊是在這個過程裡面人民想那種痛苦真的是很可怕"},{"start":7960.999,"end":7964.742,"text":"我擔心的是這個我擔心的真的會造成武器有沒有平等然後這個稅審官他到底會站在老百姓這一方還是會站在我單純不是說"},{"start":7991.236,"end":8004.099,"text":"幫這個法官來幫他說輔導他輔佐他來做出一個更好的判決我怕不是我怕是又跟回復到站在行政部門的立場就國家高權追殺我擔心的是這個所以你要嘛你就自己找無明合理吧如果要建立起一個公平的訴訟制度的話本該如此啊"},{"start":8018.911,"end":8021.804,"text":"委員報告因為這一個制度參考那個基礎審查官他當時確實有這種"},{"start":8024.913,"end":8051.47,"text":"但是後來所以才有那個聘用那聘用當時想說找民間的專利代理人但是後來發現說其實智慧局過來這些審查官在法院的在法官的指揮之下其實都還能夠保持這個公平中立公平中立那甚至會質疑說通通自智慧局過來的一天到晚再撤銷撤銷他們智慧局自己的處分反而"},{"start":8052.971,"end":8079.953,"text":"他們反正這樣的聲音那所以確實我們這個制度參考主要參考日本不管是稅審官那他們也有這一個的疑問所以在將來在操作的時候我們一定會高度注重這一個中立性這一部分吳委員長我還有四位我沒有定見但是我是站在一個民眾的立場來看待這件事情你們有空去看youtuber我常常會看到很想笑"},{"start":8080.934,"end":8095.281,"text":"美國常常就是行政部門不管是交通罰單或政府給他開一個罰單然後走到法庭裡面可以一個老爺爺他動不動那個當事人就不服嘛就看告到法院來"},{"start":8096.357,"end":8120.196,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":8120.506,"end":8135.011,"text":"但重點是你會覺得那個制度都超級溫暖。也就是說我們要解決這個萬年稅單的問題很好啊。行政訴訟本來就是一個撤銷訴訟啊。常常到最後回復到你原處分機關裡面人家自為一個處分啊。那現在變成跨機關了。我覺得也很好。"},{"start":8139.964,"end":8162.756,"text":"這個是觀念上每一個人都可以去好好去做一個突破。你就變成說與其讓老百姓這樣在跟衙門之間,就當然我們行政部門之間大家一直在那邊你做出一個處分出來,我要去申付,我要去訴願,然後再繳三分之一。來來去去那真的是痛苦。那到最後不如行政部門跟人民之間一次交給法院。法院也可以自為處分自為判決。"},{"start":8167.45,"end":8183.986,"text":"這是很大的一個突破啊連現在我們在民事訴訟跟刑事訴訟的時候你到事實審法院到高等法院你把他上訴到最高法院最高法院他也跟你自為判決啊那事實審的問題我把你丟回去啊那行政訴訟我認為這是一個突破但是核心概念我還是認為啊這個稅審官這個部分喔"},{"start":8188.027,"end":8198.092,"text":"司法院應該好好去做一個思考這個是一個定位的問題除了我剛提到的那個會造成武器不平等的狀況之下第二個就是說人性"},{"start":8199.349,"end":8199.709,"text":"市長,你的看法合不合理?"},{"start":8228.462,"end":8229.002,"text":"錯!錯!錯!我跟你錯!你的保證無效!"},{"start":8258.564,"end":8270.661,"text":"你這個錯的離譜第一個這種情況就是會發生我們不能推定每一個人都是壞人不是我是跟你說那才符合人性而且第二個是什麼你知道嗎你們的訓練"},{"start":8272.847,"end":8277.148,"text":"你們的訓練本來稅務機關本來就是要拔鵝毛的啊本來就是要增加稅收的啊然後我增加稅收以後你們的想法就是說你本來就是可惡啊你本來就是逃漏稅啊我徵收你剛剛好而已啊這種心態公務人員這樣訓練起來我沒有說不對可是如果以這種心態倒追又到法院去的話我告訴你就會造成武器不平等"},{"start":8294.229,"end":8319.795,"text":"所以我們也希望就是說如果行政法院這邊可以採用就是他自行聘用那是最好是啊我的意思就是說我們要反省啦我沒有說全部都不對這個制度我們就必須要去反省我也可以請會計師進來啊我也可以請有一些專業的人進來啊我幹嘛都讓你你光一個審判庭的一個組成就讓老百姓會覺得你不公正你們是同一掛的"},{"start":8321.926,"end":8340.216,"text":"這是個是核心問題喔所以我才建議啦因為很多問題啦當然還有涉及到計判力的問題啦我剛剛提到那個中間判決那個那個都顛覆我們的想法但是顛覆我們傳統的看法未必不對未必不對我很開放但是我總覺得這一步法就這樣子您這樣忽略了齁"},{"start":8341.735,"end":8354.56,"text":"沒有那麼簡單,這部分要修正的是因為對整個制度的一個重大的一個變革我知道是為了解決事情可是為了解決什麼事是為了解決人民的事啊不是為了解決政府部門的事啊所以要慎重好不好好謝謝"},{"start":8359.141,"end":8381.354,"text":"好,謝謝專委員、謝謝次長、謝謝副秘書長先做一個宣告稍後與吳委員、施堯詢答後一線前宣告處理臨時提案然後再做休息接續下來我們請吳委員、施堯做詢答好,謝謝主席有請副秘請副秘書長黃副秘書長委員好"},{"start":8386.988,"end":8402.324,"text":"剛剛聆聽了這個莊瑞雄委員過去是律師出身那我對於他很多對於我們稅務審理專法的一些提醒我認為都值得討論我謝謝莊委員真的替我們示範了什麼叫做舊法條論法條"},{"start":8403.846,"end":8410.793,"text":"我也很多部分被他說服所以我非常支持未來在審議的過程該開公聽會我們願意開公聽會但是我也要提醒稍後要處理臨時提案提案人黃國昌委員他說的也很正確這樣一個制度變革稅務處理的專法"},{"start":8427.088,"end":8455.248,"text":"影響層面至深且遠他認為要開公聽會我們都支持民進黨團的立場就是多元討論這是我們一貫的立場所以說同樣的也希望對於憲政制度至深且遠的憲法訴訟法也請要開公聽會我想這是我們回到一個立法院我們在"},{"start":8456.509,"end":8471.184,"text":"會及更多的社會專業意見有利於我們修法立法的過程當中大家要一樣的標準一樣的開放性的心胸一樣的來擁抱多元的意見不應當說選擇性的來針對可以召開公聽會的議案才開公聽會這樣就是雙標了"},{"start":8479.392,"end":8495.006,"text":"所以非常遺憾喔,憲法訴訟法呢這個黃國昌委員或是國民黨籍的委員並沒有同意委員會層級交開公聽會我認為稍後的臨時提案正是給黃國昌委員跟國民黨的委員們一個很好的"},{"start":8496.759,"end":8498.42,"text":"好進入我今天下一頁"},{"start":8514.122,"end":8539.609,"text":"依據201616年立法院三讀通過的納稅者權利保護法那個時候我沒有在司法法制委員會坦白講要藉由這個授權要定定進一步的稅務處理的專法我真的要多做功課那司改國是會議也因應一個新修的法也做出這樣子的建議我們都要來設置稅務法庭強化法官的稅務的專業能力"},{"start":8541.81,"end":8554.618,"text":"總委員剛說得很好這不是解決政府的問題是要解決人民的需要所以未來在設置稅務專業法庭的時候就要非常的嚴謹對於這個專業的意見不能偏廢下一頁"},{"start":8560.08,"end":8574.67,"text":"那這立法目的跟我們要解決的這些長年的問題譬如說萬年稅單這些問題我都認為該解決只是要更細緻思考更多相關的是"},{"start":8575.35,"end":8579.734,"text":"就是我想要檢視現在我們設置的專業法院或是法庭我們現在的專業法院包括各級的行政法院包括有了高雄少年家事法院也有了智慧財產及商業法院都是因應與時俱進我們讓司法更改革我們讓"},{"start":8595.367,"end":8595.567,"text":"議員：審查司法院"},{"start":8619.929,"end":8644.245,"text":"我要回到剛剛講的立委都支持要有專業法院或是專業法庭就是為了幫助人民落實司法改革但是呢總預算我看了你們的預算書有一個新興計畫籌設北部少年級家家事法院的計畫新年度編了一億四千三百八十萬"},{"start":8645.782,"end":8663.088,"text":"如果總預算沒有進入審查或是這筆預算因為沒有審查而持續的被阻卻在外這是新興計畫喔那怎麼辦這條沒辦法過我們北部少年級家事法院就沒有辦法來籌設那你們有什麼配套"},{"start":8667.202,"end":8685.335,"text":"還是你要對國會提出呼籲說這些目前外界非常需求的一個新的這個制度跟規劃也是大院要求我們要設是沒有錯那我們也承諾了但是相對這些經費當然希望都能夠儘速得到大院的這個支持"},{"start":8685.455,"end":8701.971,"text":"目前籌設北部少年少家法院是還找不到地嗎?還只是租的而已嗎?對不對?對 有一個中繼的地點大概在市里那一邊那接下來要成租 成租需要一些經費是 很好 所以我們在這裡對國會的在野黨的委員提出呼籲"},{"start":8705.774,"end":8722.483,"text":"因應雙北的少年相關的案件案量龐大逐年增加這也是符合立法院的要求司法院積極來籌設北部少年法、少家法院迫在眉睫不要因為據審總預算讓這珍貴的新興計畫一億四千三百八十萬在"},{"start":8730.199,"end":8731.822,"text":"還遠在天邊好嗎我們一起向國會來訴求當然民進黨作為執政黨我們全力努力來推進總預算的審查謝謝複密下一頁"},{"start":8742.677,"end":8766.127,"text":"那針對這個釋憲的結果我還是有一些需要導正的議題今天來跟副秘書長來做討論立法院要維護憲法而不是違逆憲法當大法官給了我們清楚的指引社會也給了立法院一個重考補考的機會立院就來當違憲的更生人吧"},{"start":8767.472,"end":8787.94,"text":"我們來把做錯的事、修錯的法改回來吧!切莫成為違憲的累犯了!下一頁這是無私要我本人這段時間對於遵守憲法、服從憲法法庭的宣判我的五大主張就教於父命第一停止詆毀攻擊大法官"},{"start":8789.198,"end":8812.803,"text":"第二、競訴行使合憲的人事同意權第三、終止各項已經被設立的違憲的調閱委員會或調查小組第四、憲法訴訟法應該開公聽會但是切莫再以修法來凌駕憲法應當停止審查可能再次違憲的憲法訴訟法"},{"start":8814.218,"end":8827.28,"text":"最後一個依據釋憲的結果來啟動立法院職權行使法的修法朝野合作請問我這五大主張覆秘狀有什麼指證您同意嗎"},{"start":8828.408,"end":8828.428,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":8852.299,"end":8865.15,"text":"議長的任期就到明天希望能夠產生我們司法院後續的很多的業務包含剛才委員所推行到的一些政策我們都需要新的首長來推動指示我們持續努力下一頁"},{"start":8873.444,"end":8884.598,"text":"但是很遺憾在野黨的委員似乎是不想要修法下一頁甚至有委員說沒有義務來遵守違憲的判決下一頁"},{"start":8886.566,"end":8909.159,"text":"這個我已經社會都會背了憲法78條立法院委員的行為法第三條跟釋字185號都告訴我們首先合法立委在大沒有人可以例外下一頁我這段時間去特別審視了這幾年來大法官解釋之後立法院啟動修法的時程如果以釋字585號"},{"start":8910.76,"end":8936.014,"text":"解釋出來之後立法院隨即的來重啟爭調會條例的修法我要呼喚2006年的國民黨的立法委員們那個時候民進黨是在立法院是少數但是國民黨基於國會多數的時候也遵守了釋字585號進行了爭調會條例的修法完成了13條下一頁"},{"start":8940.234,"end":8968.134,"text":"獅子六一三號立法院也很快速的重啟NCC組織法把違憲的政治力升到NCC委員的產生的這個違憲的作為導正了我真的也懷念起2007年的國民黨國會多數那個時候的國民黨欸因為即便他們是國會多數他們也遵守憲法的解釋完成了NCC組織法的修訂下一頁"},{"start":8969.46,"end":8984.233,"text":" ﹏上一屆我已經在立法院的場域了。748號解釋之後同婚法案讓台灣成為世界進步的驕傲。亞洲第一個同婚法案的通過。那個時候社會壓力何其之大。"},{"start":8985.154,"end":9008.271,"text":"但是立法院不分黨派挺住壓力讓同婚法案可以三讀通過因應回應大法官的修憲我真的認為過去的國民黨做不到做得到過去的國民黨做得到現在的國民黨為什麼就不遵守憲法呢憲法只有一步"},{"start":9009.311,"end":9036.693,"text":"憲法沒有顏色不管誰在朝不管誰在也這都是立委修法的職責下頁再下頁第二個議題我很快主席將用一點點時間喔有國民黨的委員說現在要修公投法將公投覆決的範圍可以包括憲法法庭判決的結果請問這樣公投法的修法是不是再一次用修法來凌駕憲法了複民"},{"start":9038.524,"end":9042.286,"text":"國民黨委員要做的是依據釋憲的結果啟動合憲的修法而不是在釋憲的結果之後不思悔改違憲上癮來加修惡法"},{"start":9063.237,"end":9087.112,"text":"二、修其他的法律包括公投法我舉例憲法78條很清楚的再次讓大家知道司法院解釋憲法解釋憲法是司法院的權利第二、釋字185號我也不要再贅述很重要的公投法的第二條在全國性公投跟地方性公投都載明了"},{"start":9088.012,"end":9105.182,"text":"一、憲法的規定除憲法規定以外你全國性公投可以做哪些主項目事項地方性公投他可以處理的範圍有什麼公投法第二條也告訴我們公投也不能違反憲法"},{"start":9106.226,"end":9127.401,"text":"所以我希望在野黨的委員要做的是依據事先的結果來導正現在立法院職權行使法違憲的地方而不是該修的法不修現在反而用想方設法去改修其他的法律要再一次來推翻憲法"},{"start":9128.713,"end":9151.313,"text":"憲法解釋就等同於憲法要修公投法用公投來取代憲法這也是中華民國憲法所不容唯一公投能夠介入的就是修憲的層次如果在野黨的委員對於現在的憲政有很多的運作不滿意那麼大家務實的來討論修憲"},{"start":9154.261,"end":9159.143,"text":"所以過去2006、2007或是201616、17的立法院都可以刻尊憲法能夠來把釋憲結果之後完備法制過去的國民黨做得到2024的國民黨沒有道理做不到我也補充一句2016的時代力量的黃國昌委員做得到"},{"start":9181.494,"end":9210.181,"text":"一句是字七四八號我們一起朝野合作修正定定了定定了同婚法案時代力量的黃國昌做得到現在民眾黨的黃國昌立委也應當做得到憲法只有一步我們就是做好來行使立法委員的憲法忠誠義務這是我誠懇的呼籲副院長辛苦了我們持續後續還有很多的意見要就交於您謝謝"},{"start":9211.707,"end":9220.973,"text":"謝謝主席。好,謝謝我們吳委員、司要,謝謝黃副秘書長。現在我們來處理臨時提案共議案宣讀後,再進行處理性宣讀。"},{"start":9223.45,"end":9241.055,"text":"另時提案一略以為求審慎原件請司法及法制委員會於本案諸條審查前舉辦公聽會廣大各界意見邀請相關專家學者及民間團體共同集思廣益以確保立法制周延提案人委員黃國昌、羅志強、翁曉林、謝龍介宣讀完畢請問提案委員我補充說明"},{"start":9253.123,"end":9255.205,"text":"或聯署委員沒有其他補充說明。針對臨時提案有無其他意見或說明?臨時提案"},{"start":9271.647,"end":9276.13,"text":"我非常同意立法院在任何的法案審議之前都應該好好來進行民主討論的程序所以針對稅務行政事件審理法的草案由委員會來召開公聽會我當然都支持如同提案人黃國昌委員所說的這一個專法影響層面至深且遠"},{"start":9302.227,"end":9316.077,"text":"我們民進黨團的立場一致我們支持可以開但是也在這裡要提起呼籲提案人黃國昌委員聯署人有羅志強委員、翁小林委員、謝龍介委員們希望大家能夠比較同樣的標準"},{"start":9318.418,"end":9319.419,"text":"：一、審查司法院函請審議"},{"start":9336.167,"end":9356.225,"text":"我們支持公聽會該開就開但我還是要呼籲請憲法訴訟法的公聽會我們還來得及補正程序希望有加入A案連署的委員也能來支持B案否則就是雙標好嗎?否則就是雙標明天委員會被迫召開的並不是委員會層級的公聽會"},{"start":9359.528,"end":9386.69,"text":"好我想立委要清楚我們的這個作業因為委員會層級的公聽會就是國民黨委員的總召副公席委員拒絕簽字那似乎黃國昌總召對於他已經簽字的同意交開他現在又反悔有不同意見以至於明天我們的公聽會就不是我們有比較高的效力的委員會層級的公聽會我覺得非常遺憾"},{"start":9387.21,"end":9404.234,"text":"所以我支持這個提案公聽會我們該開就開任何的法案都要同樣的標準讓多元對話可以在立法院被踐行好謝謝在那個翁委員發言之前我請教一下那個機關代表這個司法院在8月12號開的是你們叫做公聽會叫研修會要公聽會好來請翁委員"},{"start":9409.701,"end":9439.701,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":9439.701,"end":9462.457,"text":"所以希望就是這個要討論這件事情也要把議事規則弄清楚你們要開公聽會你們隨時都可以開公聽會啊你們民進黨的委員不是明天就已經要召開公聽會啦你們愛辦幾場就辦幾場但是從委員會的名義來辦基本上是要在這個法案還沒有討論之前"},{"start":9465.251,"end":9492.612,"text":"如果已經討論了送出委員會基本上是沒有這個義務一定要辦公聽會那個專委員主席還有我們在場的委員其實我其實很不想爭辯這一些但是翁委員其實你這樣講是錯的因為上次到底要不要召開公聽會就是以你現在講的就是說你草案送出去以後到最後就又沒辦法開公聽會"},{"start":9494.293,"end":9516.578,"text":"當初就是在討論這個所以才講說一定要先開空聽會不要把話點頭過來講那至於今天這個一個提案我認為是涉及到整個稅務行政審理的一個這個過程裏面這個輸送過程裏面要站在哪一方要去到底是要在"},{"start":9518.682,"end":9526.925,"text":"法律的一個設計是要增加在整個行政訴訟的時候法官審理讓他更具備專業性這當然是好事但是確實也會涉及到我剛提質詢的時候提到的所謂的武器的不平等還有我們過去這個整個長期我們所有人員都太衆於這個國家這也都好事"},{"start":9540.37,"end":9567.402,"text":"但是畢竟這是一個訴訟制度注重到有雙方的一個兩兆所以這些人員的一個組成倒不是事實上的未接的問題倒是從哪一個地方來的問題剛剛副秘也去提到說確實也應該司法院如果有餘力的話也應該自己這些人才庫他們自己本身從自己的機關裡面來做一個產生所以這一場一個公聽會這樣的一個提案我是表示贊成"},{"start":9568.855,"end":9576.82,"text":"目前沒有其他反對意見,我先請問機關代表有沒有其他的意見或說明?沒有是吧?沒有,跟我們報告,就是提這個在外公聽會當然我們是尊重只是說這個提案裡面我們是建議那個第二段那麼寫到說司法院已經2024 8月12舉辦這個公聽會之後然後後面這個委"},{"start":9591.99,"end":9607.104,"text":"參與的僅有五間民間代表然後一直到最後說我們是黑箱跟過水的政策宣傳我覺得這部分可能有點誤解啦吼那時候已經對對對那這部分是不是可以可以不要這一些的這些敘述那麼直接接到說為求審慎這樣子為求審慎再一次召開"},{"start":9611.86,"end":9624.419,"text":"我説明一下因為這個臨時提案是要求本委員會開公聽會基本上是跟其他機關無色啦但是因為機關代表有這樣的看法請問其他委員同不同意第二段做一個修正來那個委員"},{"start":9627.1,"end":9652.828,"text":"我基本上同意就是第一段跟第三段就是完整的把為什麼這個法案立法院司法法制委員會的委員們不管是提案人或是其他的委員們都同意為什麼理由在第一段第二段就是他現在的為求審議我們就要求廣納各界的意見那中間這樣子的我覺得司法院複密講的是這個"},{"start":9654.808,"end":9671.251,"text":"我非常同意了不用不用這樣子對人家做這樣子的一個指涉那我要講回來就是說今天為什麼開這場就是我們都同意開因為他關乎的是稅務行政事件審理法他是一個訴訟制度的革新"},{"start":9671.852,"end":9672.172,"text":" ﹐審查司法院函請審議"},{"start":9691.946,"end":9705.3,"text":"所以同樣我再講回來憲法訴訟法也是完備訴訟制度而不是造成憲法法庭訴訟制度的崩壞或者是癱瘓所以我不想再去針對這個程序上這個剛剛我委員講的是"},{"start":9708.063,"end":9710.384,"text":"你剛剛說的事情就知道就驗證這就是遂行你們害怕公聽會討論的做法所以您剛剛講的"},{"start":9731.249,"end":9747.757,"text":"就是你們做的事情不要現在來指鹿為馬那開公聽會不要雙標我再一次要懇求呼籲如果未來還有機會雖然明天司法法制委員會被迫只能用我們個別委員的名義來召開但是委員會層級的憲法訴訟法同樣攸關訴訟制度"},{"start":9752.319,"end":9753.22,"text":"那就要來開了。"},{"start":9765.185,"end":9788.933,"text":"那個第二段保留了但是就是後面輪迴過水之政策宣導如此黑箱作業恐難服眾這個就再改成錦衣會後發出新聞稿恐難服眾就這樣子那其他就不用說太多了"},{"start":9789.895,"end":9790.075,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":9807.286,"end":9808.347,"text":"我們就休息10分鐘,謝謝"},{"start":10882.162,"end":10885.004,"text":"好,繼續開會。我們現在有請賴委員事保發言。謝謝主席以及各位先進。有請財政部的理事長。請理事長。理事長好。"},{"start":10911.55,"end":10916.495,"text":"有關於昨天開始到今天有個事情不斷的延燒我想你知道我問你什麼?關於雲端種樹籌獎活動"},{"start":10925.373,"end":10927.936,"text":"我的標題就是說他是大作弊因為我們看結果嘛結果就四個人重複做大獎你說一個大獎一個小獎都是小獎還沒有關係都是大獎比如說有人抽到"},{"start":10944.377,"end":10948.38,"text":"目前我們已經在了解中"},{"start":10963.8,"end":10992.36,"text":"有結果嗎?跟委員報告因為就是昨天因為網路上面有很多的這方面的新聞以後我們已經有請台北國稅局因為這次他是主辦單位那請台北國稅局去洽廠商瞭解所有的系統還有就是所有的運作的過程那也跟委員報告其實台北國稅局已經把那個廠商的這個電腦系統抽獎系統的相關資料都已經帶回局裡面去了目前正在做這個檢視當中"},{"start":10994.602,"end":11006.63,"text":"有沒有可能駭客入侵這也一併在了解外界跟著就有人跟我提到說強烈質疑這四位重複抽到大獎的"},{"start":11008.592,"end":11010.514,"text":"你現在來講就是那個比例很低很低"},{"start":11026.565,"end":11051.374,"text":"請問你啊,你那個父母到底是多少?父母因為他的三次抽獎,因為他們可以參加就是第一次第二次第三次他只要連續有去幾點數有捐贈發票進行這個整個活動的一些遊戲規則的話都可以參加抽獎而且也可以累計抽獎的次數那這個部分因為他有涉及到一個比較細的統計資料是不是我可以會後再另外提供給委員好嗎?"},{"start":11052.401,"end":11055.624,"text":"因為原來昨天講了9萬,今天講了12萬,到底是多少?你們什麼時候可以有結果嗎?明天可以,明天以前可以公佈答案嗎?"},{"start":11074.48,"end":11096.208,"text":"那就要看今天我們那個整個調查過程就是發現他每一個環節到底實際上的狀況是怎樣這個部分我沒有辦法把握說明天一定會有結果你們需不需要法務部或者是事務發部幫你們啊事務發部這方面數字比較清楚啊事務會方面你們來做大家都覺得大家都覺得你們可能不夠力喔可不可以"},{"start":11098.349,"end":11113.359,"text":"不過我想我們先自己努力看看如果需要這個其他機關的協助我們也會麻煩其他方法三天以內可以把結果出來嗎因為明天可能放假說不定明天可能放假然後就沒有啦然後你這個然後就過來放假日"},{"start":11114.559,"end":11140.691,"text":"這個事情就沒有了外界非常關注這個事情委員這個我們一定會盡快盡快三天可以吧三天這個我真的沒有辦法在這邊承諾因為不是不是我們要看那個整個系統的狀況還有就是資料的複雜度還有就是整個驗證的情況所以我只能跟委員說明我們一定會盡快盡快應該不敢現在就說絕對沒有廠商作弊絕對不會有駭客入侵這兩個這我不敢不敢在這邊打包票"},{"start":11141.751,"end":11144.833,"text":"我們就很擔心了財政不管我們稅的資料被駭客我們所有的人幾百萬的報稅要報稅戶通通要被駭客因為這個系統是外包給廠商來設計跟處理的"},{"start":11163.285,"end":11165.046,"text":"我請問你啊,這個在民主國家是人民最大還是官員最大?"},{"start":11191.62,"end":11209.527,"text":"我想民主國家所有的政府的人都是要對民眾負責嘛對嘛所有的任何的措施就是人民最大人民做的直接民權就是公投代議事包括立委包括這個有大法官屬於代議事我這樣講我對吧公投的部分不是我這樣講我對吧我請問你公投是直接民權然後這個這個"},{"start":11220.254,"end":11227.118,"text":"我們的立委的立出來的法律以及大法官的解釋是屬於代議事這個講法對吧我想大法官應該不是代議啦當然代議啊這是蘇永青以前當過你們司法院的副院長吧他也是他公開寫的啊這個是代議事這個不是直接民權最少不是直接民權吧"},{"start":11244.124,"end":11262.078,"text":"對不對這不是直接明確所以我們很清楚現在民進黨的委員開口閉口講說哎呀你不要做違憲如果要真的講啊你給吳思耀多少時間你給我多少時間啊這個主席啊你不要站起來讓我講話不要超過兩分鐘不要緊張吳思耀委員不斷的強調說不要做違憲的壘犯民進黨就是違憲的壘犯"},{"start":11271.531,"end":11279.277,"text":"中華民國憲法講得很清楚中華民國主權包括台灣地區跟大陸地區他們打死都不承認這個就是到底的你既然要說中華民國憲法要不要違憲現在整個政策都在違憲了"},{"start":11289.991,"end":11319.974,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":11319.974,"end":11346.561,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":11347.236,"end":11375.647,"text":"最早的民進黨的先進門還要整個來講要制憲了用公投來整個推翻中華民國憲法都可以這樣做了為什麼我們不可以去對於大法官的制憲來加以公投我們真的不懂啊當大法官不斷的扭曲自己不斷的指向權力靠攏不斷的已經變成過街老鼠的時候人民要起來講話這就是公投法"},{"start":11376.307,"end":11377.407,"text":"接下來我們有請翁委員小林發言"},{"start":11409.171,"end":11417.457,"text":"主席好,還有各位委員。在這邊先有請黃副秘書長。請黃副秘書長。我首先想請教您一個比較基本的問題。請問您認為說實話、誠實是不是做人的基本道理?"},{"start":11438.121,"end":11455.783,"text":"我們期待每一個人都是一個誠實坦誠的人所以誠實應該是屬於個人的基本道德我們講說他是一個道德道德可以轉換成為法律義務嗎?"},{"start":11458.391,"end":11459.292,"text":"只是在法院之前不可以說謊。"},{"start":11481.305,"end":11499.411,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":11500.272,"end":11500.652,"text":"大法官．"},{"start":11524.517,"end":11539.214,"text":"那麼他在這次的現判之九號判決裏面也是引起這個社會覺得最訝異的然後最不可思議的一段解釋那麼"},{"start":11539.835,"end":11567.114,"text":"大法官認為說行政首長或政府人員在立法院委員會調查程序所做的陳述他就陳述內容所負的責任是政治責任無涉法律責任所以如果行政首長政府人員在立法院的陳述內容有涉及到虛偽陳述引發爭議的話乃是屬於政治性的爭議本人要受到民主問責"},{"start":11568.616,"end":11569.056,"text":"您同意嗎?"},{"start":11594.369,"end":11622.495,"text":"那大法官的判決我好像沒有這樣子寫啊沒有這樣子寫所以他說不負法律責任啊他還是要負政治責任啊所以是啊好那所以呢我現在就是從大法官這個判決裡面我們來延伸幾個問題如果說今天有人名他主張你們現在刑法裡面所處罰的虛偽陳述罪是違憲的他可以怎麼寫簽驗"},{"start":11625.472,"end":11652.245,"text":"他可以說人民就陳述內容所負的責任是屬於道德責任無涉法律責任人民在行政機關或法院所做的陳述內容若有涉及到虛偽陳述引發爭議的話是屬於道德爭議本人受到社會譴責而道德問題呢這是屬於社會關係中去解決不是屬於行使司法權的法院所宜介入"},{"start":11655.595,"end":11668.707,"text":"這段話您同意嗎?若有人提出這樣子的申請事件認為我們的新法上面現在的處罰虛偽陳述罪是違憲的您認為大法官會怎麼判?目前大法官並沒有說這個在訴訟過程中的違憲罪是違憲同樣的邏輯啊對啊那請問政治責任可不可以轉換成為法律責任?"},{"start":11683.188,"end":11696.496,"text":"跟委員報告那大法官已經做出（所以您是完全認同大法官的這個見解的跟委員報告我們是司法行政單位我們沒有那個資格跟立場去去"},{"start":11698.236,"end":11721.247,"text":"但是你們有提案修法的責任 對不對你們是不是應該要依照大法官憲法解釋的意思去提案修法勒大法官認為政治責任不是法律責任啊那同樣的道理啊那麼人民也可以主張我今天就我所陳述的內容自行負責這屬於我道德責任我說謊是受到社會各界的評價你們憑什麼要來處罰我"},{"start":11723.973,"end":11744.959,"text":"我們看一下現在刑法的第168條跟刑法的第111條才剛被大法官宣告違憲的這個條我們比較看看它的構成要件到底有什麼不同除了少了一個拒絕之外都是就所知道的關係事項為虛偽陳述而科處刑責"},{"start":11749.261,"end":11756.363,"text":"當然就像剛剛秘書長講的唯一的不同是在法院面前不可以說謊但是在立法委員面前可以說謊我知道其實秘書長您今天很為難啦看到大法官這樣的憲法判決然後再加上我們現在其實不管在行政法規訴訟法規裡面其實都有很多跟我們這次立法院職權刑事法修的條文是大同小異的"},{"start":11778.43,"end":11805.829,"text":"如果說大法官今天做了這樣的裁判理由之後一般老百姓也可以主張啊我同樣都是說謊或是我同樣我沒有說誠實而沒有說實話的義務但是為什麼在法律上受到不同的法律評價大法官在這邊有做一些理由上面的這個敘述這些顯然不太能夠用到法院的稱呼"},{"start":11807.344,"end":11822.931,"text":"是,所以還是就是大法官司法院最大嘛對不對大法官是屬於司法院憲法法庭裡面一份的所以呢無論如何就是司法院最大在司法院面前不可以說謊然後在其他的這個機關面前在立法院面前就可以說謊"},{"start":11826.26,"end":11855.265,"text":"我只是感到很遺憾像這樣子的大法官憲法裁判的理由裡面他把很多的道理把它混為一談把我們過去講的政治責任難道不是政治道德嗎我們講一般的個人的人品道德你都可以轉換成為法律責任法律義務為什麼政治道德政治責任不能夠轉換法律義務只是因為他沒有規定在憲法裡面嗎"},{"start":11858.271,"end":11867.583,"text":"我們憲法裡面有說不可以處罰我們憲法裡面也沒有講說有授權這個法院可以處罰說謊虛偽陳述的人啊為什麼我們現在可以處罰請問秘書長為什麼現在可以處罰"},{"start":11876.434,"end":11901.219,"text":"目前因為法院這個在拒絕以後要為誠實陳述這個的處罰我想大概不只是臺灣﹖ 秘書長簡單來說是因為法律保留嘛因為我們法律已經有規定了嘛對不對我們憲法裡面沒有規定的這麼具體的名義嘛就授權立法者可以去制定嘛那同樣的道理在我們立法院職權刑事法也是一樣我們是進行三讀的法律程序所制定出來的法律"},{"start":11902.421,"end":11918.911,"text":"同樣的也是把一些政治的這個道德政治責任轉換成為法律義務其實這邏輯是一樣的當然不僅是有關於這個虛偽陳述的問題然後接下來好這個然後再接下來下一頁對於不提供資料也是一樣的我想請這個陳怡聽長"},{"start":11934.472,"end":11961.511,"text":"陳庭長,在我們行政訴訟法169條裡面的規定有說第三人無正當理由不提出文書致命者的話行政法院是可以處罰新台幣3萬元以下的罰款您認為這樣的規定有沒有必要?我想訴訟法這就是明文應該是有必要才會在法律上做這樣一個規定是,如果說我們今天依據大法官的憲法的理由我們把這條廢了呢?"},{"start":11965.62,"end":11976.931,"text":"會影響到你們行政法院的作業嗎?因為大法官認為其實人民是沒有出席的義務也沒有提供資料的義務"},{"start":11981.916,"end":12008.809,"text":"因為大法官並沒有說這個行政訴訟法這個人民在法院的程序裡面必須...大法官沒有說但是他在理由裡面講得很清楚啊我們不是每個人都要遵守大法官憲法判決的意旨對不對所以呢今天立法委員或是你們應該要主動的要提出修法啊依照大法官憲法的判決的意旨要保障人民的自由保障他們有言論不言論的自由保障他們有提供資料跟不提供資料的自由"},{"start":12013.488,"end":12031.588,"text":"因為我們認為這個訴訟法應該不在這一次大法官的這個宣判的這個範圍內哦是這樣嗎那所以呢對於這個我們之前講的實質廢死的案的那個大法官宣告那四條說只有那四條條這個死刑才要一致決其他的都可以不用一致決是不是"},{"start":12033.749,"end":12039.473,"text":"我們正在研議當中如果說議址參考當然我們會去做研議那為什麼這對我剛剛講的你們不一起研議呢對啊大法官也是一樣啊根據大法官的議址未來虛偽陳述罪要檢討修正然後無故缺席的處罰不正當理由不提供資料拒絕陣營的處罰都要一併的修正啊符合大法官的憲法議址要保障人權啊"},{"start":12061.766,"end":12064.133,"text":"委員報告我們覺得這情形恐怕不太一樣"},{"start":12065.495,"end":12093.529,"text":"是到底情形哪裡不一樣我請司法院提份報告給我好不好從大法官憲法判決的一直裡面然後去檢視現在所有的我們訴訟法上的有關於無正當理由缺席然後不提供資料拒絕證言做虛偽陳述等等相關的處罰的規定好不好來比較一下到底有什麼不一樣那麻煩司法院可以一個月之內給我這份報告書好謝謝"},{"start":12094.38,"end":12100.785,"text":"好謝謝翁委員也謝謝黃副秘書長接下來請賴會員委員賴會員賴會員不在有請謝委員榮屆發言好那麼上午先處理會議時間上午會議時間繼續進行至所有發言登記委員詢答結束好請謝委員"},{"start":12127.129,"end":12132.671,"text":"感謝主席,我請秘書長請副秘書長委員好委員長辛苦啊,對你講的抱歉啊,沒辦法你呃,代理秘書長,我請問你,你一陣子要去離新啊"},{"start":12152.591,"end":12181.496,"text":"如果說能夠順利產生新的我們的長官當然當然他就可以盡早去做一個決定因為現在不是我自己能夠決定的但是已經通過了阿現在阿如果新的一定會沒有出來你剛把你調單放空中這樣喔?委員報告那也許如果沒有生意產商也許會有代理的司法院長嘛"},{"start":12183.335,"end":12199.772,"text":"對阿 有人代理阿 現在代理的村的黑白的剪到這樣 一定要代法官?到我們的那個司法院的規定是要在總統在大法官之內 你是有支持他們 你有支持到他們"},{"start":12203.476,"end":12229.866,"text":"沒有,跟委員報告,因為我們的調動都是,都是符合法官自願的,這是我們法律有保障的,所以一定是有,照各個法官自願才會鬆手。因為我來這裡,都要請你起來,大法官就不能來啊,我也沒辦法請你來啊。啊所以有人要問你的時候,我會疑心不忍啊。我請教你。因為我對大法官不一定就不是對他們的個人,你想喔。"},{"start":12231.412,"end":12252.868,"text":"憲法宣判後,這個會議後,後面其他的包括新的案,我不會因為對於那個案的判決我代表人民,我歡迎人民對於不好的聲音但是新的案件就新的,一個case,一個Case沒辦法對不對也不會因為個人"},{"start":12254.738,"end":12273.689,"text":"人人都有個人的,我們都存中意嘛。但是當你的法國違背到我代表的民意的時候,人民給我的壓力,叫我來這裡對表達人民的聲音嘛。啊所以變成只能對你表達,我不知道我整會幾半這樣,跟你聲明之後,你剛好回去給人家轉達啊。"},{"start":12281.706,"end":12304.915,"text":"憲法法庭是很獨立在運作,我也不能,我也沒有資格,你有信心嗎?我想委員在立法院在催省那些事情,其實沒有報告那個大概媒體館長都有啦。沒有啦館長有,他們不一定看啊。我也沒有在煮給大家去看清是說你有看過有看過,但是我相信...這看過沒有嘛,你怎麼想我配合啊?"},{"start":12306.335,"end":12326.711,"text":"表示給我的支持者和人民回覆,因為我晚上在台北的時候我都會說台灣都沒有卡電話來,也沒有表示意見。我請教你,很重要的,因為這個後面就牽涉到,他自然破罐之後,我們要怎麼做,這就很重要了。"},{"start":12328.12,"end":12339.382,"text":"我記得之前每天有報到一個詐騙集團一個線索的車手的頭就對了結果有兩個車手被抓到這兩個車手抓到之後呢跟警察就對了跟這個線索的警察說他叫我們去抓我們抓的錢都九二結果警察就一步步"},{"start":12356.502,"end":12371.756,"text":"他就要看那些非民進行的請穿好啊。請就穿好啊。不去就穿好誰啊。後來之後呢,他是用什麼那種請冠犯人那種方式啊。到處去請。"},{"start":12377.217,"end":12378.098,"text":"先把這個憲法應該是選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇"},{"start":12407.398,"end":12416.465,"text":"委員報告我一部份沒看到你知不知台海有這幾個案件的規定有用講得很詳細我大概會講在這個憲法一半的113的憲法裡面被質疑就是說必須要以犯下最嚴重的犯罪才可以判死刑對不對"},{"start":12434.534,"end":12442.997,"text":"阿像他這樣齁,事先就傳好就事先就要準備要給他們兩個死的,就事先把母親傳好死,然後再用這個手段把他打死,你看這樣有算最嚴重的犯行嗎?"},{"start":12453.759,"end":12475.873,"text":"委員報告因為因為我們受傷的過程比如說這案件還調查下去沒有 我在講的這個案件的過程嘛就是說這款的反應有算最嚴重的反應嗎?因為可能要看具體的事實啦因為你只要這樣的事實將來去調查之後又知道到底是什麼原因什麼背景再來就是說"},{"start":12483.274,"end":12494.518,"text":"一審啦齁沒給他判死刑一審給他判無期徒刑無期徒刑的意思怎麼樣你說齁啊他就欠家屬達成好戒啊因為他有欠這死者的家屬好戒所以餒給他判無期徒刑沒判死刑然後齁"},{"start":12510.64,"end":12516.745,"text":"這比格還在上手啦 要再謹慶他的罪行啦 希望再謹判啦他想說他比較合格啦 我請教你 你過去的這個判決經驗啦 他有比較合格但是沒有負責 這樣算有合格還是沒合格 我要賠你六百萬 但是我一次都沒給你 這樣算有合格還是沒合格"},{"start":12539.282,"end":12548.164,"text":"給委員報告齁 合格的時候你是說好的時候是合格 啊假設 我想說你委員剛才說的說 啊事後並沒有 並沒有流行 都沒有流行 當然 最少 按照最少去 去 譬如說 最少去國定法院 齁 啊這一年可能嘛 要判的時候 到要判過的時候 你也問一下 我說我們不能把 比個 那個比來這裡問一下說 啊這個有沒有合格 錢有沒有合格"},{"start":12567.246,"end":12574.515,"text":"啊你現在總要在算盤 總要用說他事有何概所以我認為這 我看有這麼簡單的方法"},{"start":12578.516,"end":12597.519,"text":"案的審判我沒有參與我不知道但是正常律師啦比如說律師、代理人、被害者有給檢察官講,如果在那裡講就去尋求信我們現在他台灣說的意思就是說他要沒差別啦水機殺人這個還要做嚴重的反省才有可能判死刑嘛啊如果他這個算了說他這個不是水機的也不是沒差別的就我準備要給你死的這樣才不可以判死刑呢"},{"start":12609.155,"end":12610.436,"text":"我們有兩個警察,給一個4人的兇犯"},{"start":12638.882,"end":12640.723,"text":"這兩個警察要跟他們出題﹖結果﹖他走到京阿島﹖一台17島﹖一台38島﹖你如果身為家屬就看到﹖感覺看人家死得這麼淒涼的就對了﹖家屬的無奈﹖這種的感覺算是反下最嚴重的反省﹖是不是﹖"},{"start":12666.889,"end":12693.731,"text":"我們要看他個別情形,我可以講當然這是很嚴重的事他這個選擇不是故意的喔,你不是去意的喔,如果這樣才有大法官現在的解釋,這個是不會判死刑的啦,覺得是這樣嗎?全部我剛才講那是舉例,大法官的理由是舉例,他實際上要看其他各種的這個當時發生的所有的經過因為大法官該"},{"start":12695.425,"end":12695.805,"text":"議員：一、審查司法院函請審議"},{"start":12715.842,"end":12729.514,"text":"這具體的情形我再向委員報告,剛才是一個例子,可能具體的情形我再去講,你現在...如果這樣現狀是這37個時期的情況,你看到已經台法官席還沒過月了嘛,一年過月了,你們有去查看這裡的人,這37個冬季是都有一筆刮毛"},{"start":12739.898,"end":12746.71,"text":"我沒有看到他的會長上司在審查當中沒有啦,我說你台法官解說後,他們看這37個當機時,審判有一定過嗎?"},{"start":12751.718,"end":12759.799,"text":"我最喜歡審查,因為很久了,很久了,很久了,所以要調比較早的檔案,有的檔案已經有了,有很多有很久了,他的檔案已經超過保存期限,超過保存期限,所以要用另外一個方式去查,不是都...沒有啦,有查過的啦,沒有..."},{"start":12778.983,"end":12786.047,"text":"因為若一地割離就不用再非常上手了嘛,是不是?若一地割離就可以,我要問你的意思是若一地割離,我們也牽涉到後面這37個法制61個啦,這61個有競爭比賽的、有辦會小的、有去倒台的、有去唱歌的就對了"},{"start":12807.745,"end":12818.727,"text":"我告訴你這是很惡劣的啦!所以現在我們回到好台灣已經解說了、判決了這37個我要問的就是若一帝國是不是立法院我們可以繼續下去嗎?就是這個理由一帝國的這個理由這關過嘛其他的不可能再用其他的理由當然其他的理由要經過最高檢察署、檢察總統去做審核所以若一帝國的就是法務部現在可以"},{"start":12835.325,"end":12835.645,"text":"因為這發露一個"},{"start":12864.887,"end":12867.788,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":12884.773,"end":12898.2,"text":"啊你現在你司法院你要有一個態度出來啊,所以我告訴你不要給你為難,我每次給你問的你拿回去給我看清楚啊,他意志什麼了啊,現在來,啊不好來,你說他如果沒有受訓練就對了,這條刑事訴訟法我一定要給你問嘛,這是應該你拿出來嘛,你有要拿出來嗎?"},{"start":12907.811,"end":12909.635,"text":"司法院函請審查司法院函"},{"start":12918.524,"end":12938.507,"text":"議員 議員 議員"},{"start":12938.627,"end":12939.808,"text":"因為這條先提出來,因為這條我講過了嘛。"},{"start":12965.455,"end":12979.565,"text":"對嗎?你有印象嗎?我問過你,我剛才問過你,這個這款是不是在你手上嗎?你說是嘛。受刑能力的部分一定是,因為實際上執行是檢查那邊嘛。所以我們這邊是配套的,我只要檢查看看,這條你現在沒有打開,現在沒有人要,沒有人敢動手嘛。他是不是有受刑能力?他是不是過了7天、8天、15天,過了他聖經效益啊?"},{"start":12989.733,"end":12990.615,"text":"現在沒辦法判斷,19到20,發不報,也沒辦法執行。這樣好不好?"},{"start":12997.648,"end":13025.622,"text":"我們有時候要補分喔,教育委員我們共同來推上來好不好?來,你看外國人這樣做一個說明我這補分喔,一定要,因為這次的補分不可能隨便他們單獨去處理啦因為這補分是法務部跟政府啦我知道嘛,我說你這樣很清楚啦我一個時間嘛,因為100控告你的都已經拗車案、拗嫌疑過你一定不得審出來,不得審出來兩個態度啦第一就是什麼?法部完畢啦齁,你如果還在嫌疑第二就是什麼?拼議!"},{"start":13028.124,"end":13028.785,"text":"會議員．一、審查司法院函請審議"},{"start":13041.212,"end":13041.993,"text":"接下來有請紅委員孟楷發言"},{"start":13072.281,"end":13087.692,"text":"好,謝謝周偉,麻煩請我們李慶華次長請李次長次長,這兩天財政部可能可以申請近視世界紀錄有沒有注意到?"},{"start":13089.079,"end":13109.615,"text":"我知道愚情在反映什麼事情是因為有人講說這個雲端發票的抽獎啊四人重複抽獎重複中獎以這個機率來看真的是為乎其為有網紅去用CHAP GDP還是用這些AI來去計算本席剛剛也有計算過如果說第一輪的抽獎"},{"start":13111.172,"end":13139.673,"text":"的機率跟第二輪抽獎的機率一個第一輪是五個中獎名額第二輪中獎是九個中獎名額九萬人來去參與的話那這樣子到最後得出來的結論同一人兩次中獎的機率為乎其為啊這個數字我都不會念那更何況是同一次抽獎裡面有四個人都符合這樣的一個機率那是代表什麼意思?乘四啊就是這樣的機率要乘以四次啊是不是?"},{"start":13140.646,"end":13158.406,"text":"那第一時間我看到財政部有講沒有違法那再來不到12個小時又講說來上一張沒有內定造假但是要請國稅局查證那請教國人大家都很關心阿"},{"start":13159.636,"end":13178.941,"text":"現在次長有沒有掌握到底是什麼狀況發生這樣的一個機率包委員目前我們還沒有完全掌握因為還沒有完全掌握對現在我們是國稅局已經去把那個就是承辦機關他們的那個電腦系統還有相關的資訊所以這個是委外的標案對是委外的標案對好這個委外的標案多少錢多少錢"},{"start":13181.332,"end":13194,"text":"總共是...這個委案因為說實在話本席昨天也很關心我請我們的同仁上網看一下財政部的絕標公告我們還發覺這一個標案還真的很難找到"},{"start":13195.103,"end":13200.668,"text":"所以這個標案總共多少錢?應該是450.450萬吧450萬450萬的標案總共做時間是從6月到9月嘛 對不對這是參與抽獎的時間那真正整個抽獎結束的時間是10月25號"},{"start":13214.041,"end":13234.621,"text":"450450萬有包含這些獎品、獎項以及辦理﹖都包含在裡面﹖好那出現了這樣的一個狀況當然國人就會有質疑就覺得說為什麼會這樣子因為這個機率真的是不可思議甚至有人講說可以申請金氏世界紀錄那所以什麼時候會讓國人知道我們財政部的一個調查狀況"},{"start":13235.561,"end":13259.119,"text":"目前我們已經請國稅局在積極調查中我們也希望他們盡快能夠給我們答案啦所以我們希望在短時間之內幾天之內就可以有一個你知道這個對於財政部來講我覺得對所有機關當然都不應該發生這樣的事情但是尤其是發生在財政部因為大家會同仁會認為財政國稅這都是支柱必較數字都算得非常精準"},{"start":13259.819,"end":13281.955,"text":"你不能說跟國人要納稅的時候一塊錢兩塊錢都跑不掉結果突然間你們辦一個活動九萬人參與結果機率那麼低然後居然有四個人可以直接中獎那這樣子發生在財政部我覺得這對於公信力是非常大的折扣那現在你如果說講是說不是財政部問題可能是委外廠商的問題那委外廠商會不會有相關的一個連帶責任"},{"start":13283.848,"end":13309.214,"text":"這當然就是要看我們那個後續追查的結果到底實際上的狀況是怎樣如果確實有相關確實是在這個整個程序過程當中或每一個環節當中有發生一些有問題的事件我們會依照相關的規定來處理相關規定有怎麼樣處理就看是不是我不知道他們契約當時的契約裡面是不是有追究責任或賠償或只是後續的一些其他的處理事件"},{"start":13309.738,"end":13320.385,"text":"好 那本席再跟您再請教一下像這個標案它也是用本預算的部分那所以說它是不是某種程度上它也算是侵犯到人民、國人、納稅人的一個權益"},{"start":13321.983,"end":13342.44,"text":"因為我今天早上居然還看到是說我不知道說是不是財政部正式的回應啊講說這個是用雲端發票的基金來去做辦理所以跟本預算沒關係所以這樣子即便是可能有瑕疵也不影響國人的權益是這樣嗎難道基金的預算基金的預算不是人民的納稅錢或是說我們相關的一個消費來去累積嗎"},{"start":13344.362,"end":13359.455,"text":"怎麼可能說縱容到這種程度好像不要沒關係辦活動沒關係換件iPhone反正我也沒有參與啊iPhone不是我我也沒有問題啊但重點在於是說今天辦出來這樣的活動然後被國人質疑了"},{"start":13361.028,"end":13374.328,"text":"我們還會這樣子輕描淡寫嗎?不會,這件事情我們非常重視基本上我們一定會嚴查整個流程還有就是整個環節到底有沒有任何的狀況有沒有問題有沒有廠商這一家廠商是第一次投票還是之前就有投票過"},{"start":13376.05,"end":13394.486,"text":"有投標過所以他也不是第一次來參與的廠商那既然如此的話會不會過去的活動可能沒有被人家提爆也有類似的狀況因為現在PTT上面也有講還有另外一個抽獎活動也是我們財政部辦的說有特定姓氏的人30%的中獎機率"},{"start":13397.267,"end":13413.98,"text":"那這樣子會不會變成是說到最後大家會看原本我們以為財政部應該是最支柱必較的原本以為覺得說我們鼓勵雲端發票很好啊少無止化啊但沒想到原來你們拿450萬公帑原來你們拿700萬公帑辦的活動變成是都有瑕疵"},{"start":13415.131,"end":13436.04,"text":"報告委員剛才委員提到的另外一個標案不是我們財政部辦理的案不是財政部辦理嗎網路上有知道這個訊息是不是稅捐處對自己辦的活動也都是這個稅國稅、稅捐、財政怎麼會讓國人覺得應該是最支柱必較的"},{"start":13437.312,"end":13463.274,"text":"所以查一稅查兩稅都要叫大家補稅要繳稅那結果沒有想到我們花450萬辦的一個活動居然變成是要上金氏世界紀錄我說實在話你也相對無辜啊今天部長在財政委員會還沒有來嘛那你當然我要好好的了解嘛那最後來我們看一下2025年說統一發票經費大增再加開雲端五百元獎項"},{"start":13464.68,"end":13486.368,"text":"這是次長你前幾天的新聞嗎?這樣子?如果辦下去的話會不會讓大家質疑你的公信力?可是這個是我們統一發票的抽獎的活動我們那個都是公開抽獎的而且從來沒有人質疑過這個問題以前都是非常公正公開而且非常透明而且沒有重複對講的問題次長"},{"start":13489.19,"end":13503.572,"text":"市長 你在一天前 你們在一天前不到12個小時前 你們也是這樣講啊說這一次的雲端發票活動公開透明 然後怎麼樣的部分本席現在提出來只是要告訴你就是說"},{"start":13504.173,"end":13513.02,"text":"我其實很痛心啊我說實在話沒有人想要看到你今天來這樣子備詢啊但是既然發生這樣的狀況短時間如果說還不能讓大家釐清的話只會讓大家覺得國人對於我們財政單位會以公信力大打折扣這才是最擔憂的地方啊報告委員我們一定會盡快的釐清而且會把釐清的結果對外說明清楚"},{"start":13524.329,"end":13524.629,"text":"現在有請陳廷輝委員陳廷輝陳廷輝委員不在"},{"start":13551.132,"end":13564.187,"text":"有請富坤祺委員．富坤祺委員不在．有請楊瓊英委員．楊瓊英委員不在．有請蘇清泉委員．蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在．有請吳春成委員．吳春成吳春成委員不在．有請林思明委員．林思明林思明委員不在．有請鄭振淺委員．鄭振淺鄭振淺委員不在．好"},{"start":13567.871,"end":13591.221,"text":"那麼所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢,詢答結束。委員質詢時,要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者,請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會委員林思明、胡坤祺所提書面質詢均列入記錄刊登公報,並請相關機關以書面答覆。討論事項所列議案報告及詢答完畢。決議。"},{"start":13592.722,"end":13598.186,"text":"均令定期繼續審查本次會議進行到此現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}