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謝謝 現在我們介紹在場的委員和官員齁我們蔡易瑜委員齁 謝謝黃珊珊委員顏寬仁委員羅明才委員 謝謝我們在場的官員齁財政部莊瑞雲部長財務部法制處的姚瑩處長國庫署的陳柏成署長負稅署的宋秀玲署長"},{"start":1977.199,"end":2003.3,"text":"行政組織總署陳淑芝組織總署的公務預算處的徐永毅處長內政部的董建宏次長內政部民政司的劉立芳專委內政部國土管理署的朱偉庭檢任司長"},{"start":2006.252,"end":2031.587,"text":"國發會的國家發展委員會的高仙貴政務副主委國發會的經濟發展處郭永騰專委原住民委員會的杜章梅莊政務副主任委員環境部的施文貞次長環境部大氣環境司的謝仁碩科長"},{"start":2033.55,"end":2056.902,"text":"融業部的黃昭清政事長、融業部會計處的蘇文樹處長、農民輔導師的王東良檢任基政、資源永續利用師的吳兆陽檢任基政、農村發展及水土保持署的黃國峰檢任政工程師、"},{"start":2059.071,"end":2081.66,"text":"法務部的林峰文參事還有我們王洪威委員今天議程是安排繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具的財政收支劃分法修正草案等22案請議事您宣讀修正動議議案預計宣讀時間一分鐘宣讀完我們就開始進行協商"},{"start":2090.977,"end":2118.649,"text":"修正動議、委員黃珊珊、陳益生、顏寬仁等3人提案第8條刪除貨物稅及礦區稅第二項將但以不超過該直轄市及縣市自籌財源之10%為限期超過部分而中央統籌分配直轄市及縣市刪除"},{"start":2121.269,"end":2122.27,"text":"區域經照現行法條文先轉閉"},{"start":2155.069,"end":2162.033,"text":"蔡、等一下蔡委員不能做那個議員會那就這一位就好了齁一位等一下就繼續一位啦齁就一位啦齁三分鐘"},{"start":2171.445,"end":2187.04,"text":"好謝謝召委那召委我們延續上個禮拜針對這個財化法那事實上我們在上個禮拜很多委員的發言都可以知道這一部財化法的一個修法他除了"},{"start":2187.7,"end":2217.006,"text":"中央跟地方的垂直分配之外他還涉及到了垂直分配的事權的部分那事權的部分事實上我們事實上也想要聽財政部跟內政部他們就到底有哪些事權是屬於過去在經省之後原本是屬於地方的業務那由中央吸收那未來如果這部財劃法應該要把部分事權也要下放"},{"start":2217.586,"end":2234.117,"text":"那到底有哪些業務是應該是要下放到各地方政府的?那就我們現在的了解你說包括說這個健保的這個補助過去是地方那在經審之後由中央來吸收"},{"start":2234.918,"end":2252.339,"text":"這個金額就高達了915億那如果是健保的這樣的一個關係的話事實上我們今天是傳喚我們今天請來的單位沒有衛福部我們事實上今天衛福部沒有來所以我們也沒有辦法知道"},{"start":2253.48,"end":2265.956,"text":"今天就少了這些部會所以我在想說我們在討論財劃法首先還是要先確認到底有哪些事權那這些事權要回到地方的時候相關的部會也應該都要在"},{"start":2267.238,"end":2280.649,"text":"在現場要隨時我們委員需要詢問然後需要徵詢都需要相關的部會在所以我想我們再進入等一下如果真的主席要走主條討論但是有很多部會他沒辦法針對事權的部分去討論這個是蠻重要的一個程序上的點"},{"start":2286.674,"end":2313.2,"text":"因為我們財劃法現在要討論了,這個就關係到了整個未來那我們也希望中央政府要講清楚到底你們吸收了多少原本是屬於地方應該要去執行的一些業務的部分你們現在都盤整起來,那這些業務到底涉及到了哪些部會比方說那天有講到老農,今天的地方也有吸收所以我們上禮拜有要求農業部要到,那今天看起來農業部是有到"},{"start":2314.48,"end":2335.536,"text":"那我剛剛講這個健保的這個支出的部分衛福部就沒有到了所以這些部會我們是不是要先確認好到底要有哪些部會應該要一起來開會那我們這個進入主條我們才會有實質上有推進否則這樣的話就會變成說在這個程序上就會有卡住"},{"start":2336.657,"end":2356.583,"text":"都會有卡住的地方,等一下主條就變得很難進行。所以我的意見是以上是這樣。我們還是希望主席的部分,針對我剛剛說的有相關部會要討論事權的部分,這部分是不是要有主席做一個裁示,我們才進出主條。"},{"start":2366.98,"end":2383.045,"text":"我先回答蔡議員的,再請你們上來喔,請坐喔等一下等一下,還沒有到那個程序嘛,還沒有到這個程序我先回答,我會讓你們暢所欲言,你們一定都可以講,請坐你要站這邊也可以來,好我先回答蔡議員,我會讓大家發言"},{"start":2385.966,"end":2403.754,"text":"會 等一下因為蔡議員的問題他叫我先回答我先回答嘛齁蔡議員的發言很好齁就說上次跟我們這個委員會報告齁我們上一次事實上這個會已經開過我們這個財化法的修正在羅明才召委的時代就已經開過公聽會我也開過啦齁"},{"start":2405.615,"end":2424.889,"text":"然後羅廷開昭的時代也做過已經做過詢答了那上次我們做廣泛討論的時候的確就是有提出來因為有其他相關事權的包括除了財政部以外包括內政部像今天次長就來了嘛內政部有關的"},{"start":2425.769,"end":2435.86,"text":"次長可能要注意聽到,上次有講有關內政部講到的地方制度法當然我們財政部還有稅法通則還有財政紀律法是財政部的有四個"},{"start":2444.549,"end":2461.887,"text":"還有地方支付款我剛講了齁所以我們今天開會的時候你們應該要準備相關的資料因為等下我們進行討論的時候像陳如我們蔡議員所說的你們資料要來你們可能要發表意見我想市長都有做充足的準備不過蔡議員所說的沒錯齁這個今天沒有邀請到"},{"start":2462.768,"end":2469.789,"text":"委員會現在通知衛福部看有哪一位可以過來問看看可不可以那我們其他委員是不是還要詢問哪一位我們先做會議詢問會議詢問完再程序發言好嗎都可以齁還有哪一位要做會議詢問的嗎那現在我們請委員會通知衛福部看他們有沒有辦法派人出來主席我的意思是說我只是列舉其中一個還有你繼續講"},{"start":2491.354,"end":2507.153,"text":"有,我們都會交到還有呢?還有嗎?還是其他委員的?沒有,等一下,等一下還沒有到那個...還沒有開始登記啊你現在登記也沒用啊我都還沒有說開始登記啊好不好請等一下,現在還..."},{"start":2508.154,"end":2530.394,"text":"現在還在會議詢問的階段登記當然是按照沒有衝突但是請大家照資訊來嘛又不會不跟你講好嗎照資訊來現在會議可能還有還有其他委員因為要登記說登記的時候說起跑的時候可能每個人都要跑過來就讓大家再跑過來嘛一定會讓您發言的不要擔心我先問還有沒有其他要"},{"start":2532.296,"end":2543.683,"text":"還有其他人要做會議詢問的沒有一樣一樣來每個人都可以發言不用擔心除了蔡議員以外可能還有其他委員其他不是本委員會可能要做會議詢問陳培毅委員比如說你要不要做會議詢問"},{"start":2546.359,"end":2563.669,"text":"我的裁示就是我的風格齁請尊重主席主持的這個風格沒有我就是依照程序來做好嗎還沒有人要做會你你問還有沒有人還有什麼委員會還有什麼不我可以講什麼我的意思是說是不是要先讓呃那個等一下那個等一下下一步你現在是你再詢問我這邊嘛齁因為我沒辦法知道我現在沒有辦法知道我剛剛現在先裁示齁大家應該沒意見我們趕快請我只是單舉齁這個健保的一個支出好OK這個這個這個建議很好齁915億"},{"start":2575.795,"end":2595.371,"text":"各位我們再請衛衡委會現在馬上通知衛福部可以派最少次長一上過來請聯絡什麼東西他如果不能來他會跟我們講我們會問詢問隨便找一個人就可以來決定這麼大的事情馬上來馬上決定我覺得吳秉銳說得最好請最少次長一上過來請通知至少次長一上過來"},{"start":2603.988,"end":2626.766,"text":"啊對對對,所以一樣一樣來,那換下一位委員會選因為已經,剛剛已經過了,剛剛時間已經過,不過沒關係各位委員會,等一下喔,各位委員,請等一下,請等一下現在,來請大家尊重,請尊重秩序"},{"start":2630.18,"end":2653.426,"text":"主席我們剛剛是說我一定會讓大家可以發言請尊重秩序我們先裁定他這件事情這個蔡宜說的並不是只限縮在衛福部那你還要提哪個部位你可以告訴我們事實上有一些部位你這要給大家我也稍微再理解一下因為我也不知道要問哪些事情那你詢完畢我先回答可以嗎你可以先回座我來回答謝謝"},{"start":2655.866,"end":2677.215,"text":"這個一樣樣來要再問的還有機會不用擔心各位我們有三天時間日夜的大家不用擔心來這個怎麼會程序有問題我主持會我的程序有什麼問題我就照此例子我不要不跟你發言請尊重秩序好嗎來請等一下等一下一位一位來我先採視蔡議員所說的"},{"start":2678.135,"end":2697.445,"text":"他說這個衛福部要過來我們要邀請衛福部我已經請我們委會要邀請衛福部然後吳秉瑞委員所說的的確如果隨便一個來時在衛街太低所以一定要請市長過來主席你這樣講就不對了不要用這個衛街的問題只問我這個衛街的問題好了請歐亞人來收拾馬上這個處理就有問題了"},{"start":2705.889,"end":2706.749,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":2732.839,"end":2750.755,"text":"第二輪再換,還有別人沒問題,林主委都已經起手了,好嗎?對,可以再問,你下來換別人可以嗎?一分鐘看還有誰要問,看有哪個問題,好,你可以問了,我們本委會請等一下好嗎?主委委員陳旭花言不能只有一分鐘啊"},{"start":2756.056,"end":2764.904,"text":"每個人尊重,大家可以一直講,每個人可以講,三如四同,請不要用麥克風等他講,請林處議員你也可以做會議詢問嘛,你會議詢問我們再做程序嘛,一樣一樣的"},{"start":2776.135,"end":2778.897,"text":"本委員會要先,怎麼會是這樣子咧?楚逸,你不是本委員會的啊?"},{"start":2796.368,"end":2816.698,"text":"主席已經給他發言位置了林群委員請發言一貞主席你怎麼可以隨時就是林群委員已經舉手了請發言他剛剛他先表示要會議詢問了主席你的材質很奇怪陳培宇他叫陳培宇陳培宇委員先的你怎麼可以讓林群委員先來那培宇先來"},{"start":2824.813,"end":2833.978,"text":"對不起,誰有發言地位是我的居然。你先講,你要讓他先講,請等一下。你先講一分鐘而已,講一講。好,那下一個是陳培恩,好。好,那這樣子,要做會議詢問請到前面來登記嘛,好嗎?每一位都過來,來。"},{"start":2850.128,"end":2869.142,"text":"本委會不但可以做會議詢問,還可以再做程序發言,好嗎?他們是剛剛做菜的牌子啦,你怎麼這樣換來換去啦?會議詢問本委會可以做,可以,所以說多來,沒關係,誰翻也可以,歡迎多多發言喔!"},{"start":2872.206,"end":2888.454,"text":"多多花言就不可以限制一分鐘啊!怎麼可以限制一分鐘啊!你那個一分鐘從上來到下去上來開始講才算啊!不用擔心繼續講繼續講!多講一點喔!大家暢所欲言多講一點!我們是尊重其他委員!可以講五分鐘啊!"},{"start":2898.238,"end":2923.734,"text":"現在議事規則就是一分鐘啦!遵守議事規則啦!這個一分鐘就是從站準到現在議事規則還要公佈喔!自己看議事守則!議事規則還要公佈嗎?來開會又不懂議事規則那你當然啊!你要公佈啊!哪有這個樣子的!議事規則哪裡需要公佈的?在守則裡頭!你又一直講陳怡貞公佈!請大家去問主席!主席給你發言!因為你才能發言!大家都說過陳怡貞不能發言的!請大家過來簽名!"},{"start":2927.956,"end":2940.665,"text":"我們的支持啊、程序怎麼樣是、會議怎麼進行是我決定好嗎?請大家多多來發言,多多來,可以嗎?我們有我們開會的權利,不是你能夠決定,程序發言要先拿主席,主席決定誰可以發言好嗎?這不是你可以決定的,這是我們的權利,不是你可以決定的,OK?"},{"start":2952.253,"end":2978.265,"text":"尊重發言的委員好嗎?好,那我延續剛剛蔡議員的發言喔蔡議員講的是說等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下"},{"start":2980.95,"end":2990.823,"text":"召登記本委員會跟外委員會就是召登記的一個順序所以本委員會沒有優先這個是陳奕辰的一個風格"},{"start":2996.852,"end":3020.315,"text":"好啦,那就是最後20秒我只想問的就是過去我們在財委會審查跟地方相關的時候比如說吞房稅啊房屋稅啊的時候地方政府都會列席因為這攸關到地方政府的權益那麼在水平分配的部分現在地方政府到底達成共識了沒有如果沒有達成共識主席是不是應該邀請地方政府一起列席這非常重要"},{"start":3021.676,"end":3049.001,"text":"也攸關到地方政府的權益不能我們中央到時候講了因為上一個禮拜上上禮拜你在質詢的時候我曾經問過財政部的政次碼他說地方還沒有達成共識那如果沒有達成共識我要求其實今天地方政府也應該要派他們的相關部會首長來做列席免得我們今天逐條審查完之後地方不認帳或不買單或者是有疑義的時候那這樣子其實在修法就會不夠矜持"},{"start":3050.903,"end":3075.288,"text":"謝謝林處理委員請回座這個我來回答林處理委員問題這個地方政府的部分要發言請登記來那個根據地方政府我們已經開過好多次會地方都有派各個財政處處長財政局局長都有派很多人過來已經開了很多次了那大家不要這個妄自菲薄我們是中央民意代表有各個選區選出來的民意代表不管是哪個縣市都有民意代表"},{"start":3076.508,"end":3098.221,"text":"各個縣市的聲音在中央都要反映出來就是靠各位民意代表就靠我們地方的民意代表而且我們還有部分區的人代表全國的聲音所以不是什麼事情我們都要聽地方政府的但是他們如果沒有辦法達成共識那當然是由我們全國最高民意立法院來決定所以這個問題大概是這樣子下一位是哪一位呢"},{"start":3101.509,"end":3122.496,"text":"會議詢問是哪一位呢?吳秉瑞委員,請發言。主席,還是要跟你再建議一下,一分鐘的會議詢問,這個時間太短了,大家沒有辦法充分的去討論。好,如果大家減少干擾時間,他就會,所謂立法委員應該要有辦法在一分鐘內把自己要表達出來,不是沒有第二天,可以登記第二天嗎?"},{"start":3123.516,"end":3129.797,"text":"我為了尊重同樣是主席同樣是財政委員會上一次3分鐘你為什麼改成1分鐘啊你有沒有經過會統的同意就執行裁決變成1分鐘我為了尊重今天來的委員這麼多每個人都可以唱索一言如果你想要講我們還可以讓你登記第二輪唱索一言一分鐘怎麼唱索一言一分鐘怎麼唱索一言"},{"start":3149.642,"end":3163.749,"text":"我第一個每個委員都應該訓練自己可以在很簡短的時間內表達完自己的意識不是啊陳怡君你不可以這樣講啊你現在講錯已經超過一分鐘了你要人家超所欲言然後你自己講要超過一分鐘第二你如果要繼續發言你登記第二輪讓每個人都有機會講來五位委員請發言謝謝"},{"start":3178.245,"end":3182.067,"text":"本委員會的了不起長久在這邊的賴氏寶委員他最得意的財政紀律法"},{"start":3193.73,"end":3209.755,"text":"這2019年通過的,到現在也還未滿,就這5年而已啦。那這是還是很新,那當年通過的時候,他非常的得意啊,說這個因為在我的要求之下,所以我們這個財政紀律,以後會有嚴格要求。財政紀律法,"},{"start":3211.089,"end":3234.434,"text":"如果我們要尊重它的話,它是一個法律,立法委員要守法嘛。它的第五條就明明規定,中央政府各級機關立法委員所提的法律案,大幅增加政府稅出或減少稅入,因具體指名彌補資金是來源。那我想喔,這個今天我們要討論問題的時候,這個也是一個前提啊。"},{"start":3235.094,"end":3260.221,"text":"那你現在要告合大家的提案都是中央的這個錢要大幅的減少然後要給地方那問題是那中央的財源減少的部分有沒有依照這一條的規定那如果沒有依照這一條的規定我們現在在這邊討論的東西就不符合財政紀律法嘛那這樣子我覺得對我們賴世保委員也是不好意思再來你剛剛講的喔我剛剛你主席你一開始用誤會我的意思"},{"start":3261.081,"end":3278.448,"text":"你今天說 衛福部有沒有來 衛福部不是哪一個單位承起的問題你今天叫部長來 他之前沒有被通知要討論這個東西 這個內容他都不了解今天部長來了坐在那邊 他上來馬上就可以回答說我要怎麼樣怎麼樣怎麼樣嗎"},{"start":3280.047,"end":3292.94,"text":"這不是這個不是哪一個政府官員的層級的問題啊而是你事先有沒有就開會的內容讓大家有預先可以準備可以準備資料可以準備對於這些問題的那個內容的問題再來你剛剛說地方政府的意見已經開過公聽會了所以"},{"start":3299.967,"end":3318.868,"text":"只要我們這邊聽到決定就好,我覺得這個說法我很不以為然啦。你說我們,我以我們新北市為例,我們新北市12個立委啊,那你這裡面你們的版本裡面財政收支劃分法,給我們增加的機會我們如果不滿意,我們新北市政府的財政局如果不滿意,新北市政府不滿意,"},{"start":3320.53,"end":3338.612,"text":"難道你們這邊要多就欺負少我們立法委員只有十幾個啊你們多數就要把我們決定掉嗎你還是要請這些地方政府他的財政方面的負責人得到地方政府授權的人來這邊表達他的意見呢我要問問他啊"},{"start":3339.273,"end":3353.727,"text":"我問他多出來錢要怎麼花啊那不夠的錢要怎麼補啊這些都是會議很重要的東西而不是我們這幾個人坐在這邊就傳出了就決定要國家幾千億上兆元的這些財源的這些問題啦我覺得這樣子的會議我是覺得不能接受啦"},{"start":3357.93,"end":3373.158,"text":"謝謝吳秉瑞委員我先回答你的會議詢問這個財政區法是規定政府如果也要大幅增加必須要提出相關的財源對對對沒錯來來來他說的是政府我們現在沒有涉及整個政府是包括中央跟地方可是也沒有講清楚這個說出來的是沒有給你這個錢怎麼補回來啊這個錢怎麼補回來啊"},{"start":3381.022,"end":3382.203,"text":"你坐一下,等下會輪到你回答,好嗎?"},{"start":3399.574,"end":3400.175,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":3422.837,"end":3447.036,"text":"代委員你當召委員你也可以繼續排我只是打算繼續排問題就是說你把遊戲規則就亂掉了為什麼要一分鐘呢財政紀律法它說政府是指中央跟地方我們今天沒有大幅減少政府的收穫支出我們只是做是分配的問題你沒有減少中央政府的收入不能問財政部總理嗎"},{"start":3450.379,"end":3473.581,"text":"不然我們的分配就要造成紀律的問題,不是不是,你在稅源上面直接就把它分配掉,這樣不是遣走中央政府的稅率嗎?政府是一體的,中央跟地方都叫做政府,只把中央的錢撥給地方,不表示大幅延長。那這樣子為什麼要關鍵中央跟地方的稅率增長必須要?那這樣關鍵政府就好啦,為什麼要分別中央跟地方?"},{"start":3476.323,"end":3498.442,"text":"第二個問題,你剛剛說衛福部的問題我覺得很好,所以我們衛福部我們已經邀請次長,你說他沒有辦法馬上回答,那如果這個來的我們請要派比較懂的,如果衛福部的官員對自己的業務這麼不賢熟的話,那是他不適格,大家不要妄自否認。今天討論的是國家的稅收的分配,財政部比較了解,你說衛福部的"},{"start":3499.543,"end":3509.497,"text":"委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員"},{"start":3515.165,"end":3518.586,"text":"你這是胡扯啦,我今天自己定一個問題我明天自己定一個問題叫你馬上來你是立法委員,你對中華民國的法律又很賢守"},{"start":3544.557,"end":3545.718,"text":"因爲你不選擇我來出席,這個怎麼這樣?這樣講沒有什麼道理!"},{"start":3574.497,"end":3594.936,"text":"二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷"},{"start":3598.882,"end":3621.228,"text":"我比駱石堅大了!我比駱石堅大了!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個"},{"start":3629.014,"end":3629.795,"text":"主席、主席、主席"},{"start":3730.578,"end":3745.168,"text":"這樣可以講嗎?這樣有聲音嗎?有聲音嗎?主席,你現在會詢問嗎?主席,鄭宇甄沒有啦,你要休到什麼時候,你要跟他說嗎?沒有啦,你要休到什麼時候?鄭宇甄,我不是很贏耶"},{"start":3758.837,"end":3783.645,"text":"休息休息休息休息到什麼時候休息到當平靜、冷靜下午下午晚上你們等到晚上,等到晚上陳一貞,等到晚上陳一貞陳一貞你是要開沒啦"},{"start":3788.749,"end":3800.914,"text":"啊你休息一直在給人家收麥克風你在收什麼啦 陳毓正休息了啦你不要在那邊吵啦 你要休息就休息啦 動作那麼多你自己營營 你動作我都營營喔"},{"start":3814.574,"end":3822.599,"text":"這個樣子的把麥克風抽回去因為你們一直乾腦發不乾腦發每個人都可以每個人都有機會好好講講到"},{"start":3825.431,"end":3842.346,"text":"主席,你怎麼變成法警、變成議事人員,說我的麥克風什麼意思啊?你什麼意思啊?你怎麼可以這樣子?你到底是法警還是議事人員啊?還是主席啊?你怎麼可以隨便拿我的麥克風啊?麥克風是我的發言權欸,你怎麼可以剝奪我的發言權?"},{"start":3846.273,"end":3855.359,"text":"這個不是法定!我沒有給你發言地位你不能發言!你懂嗎?我沒有給你發言地位你不能發言!主席是決定發言地位!沒有發言地位你就該拿!為什麼?為什麼?"},{"start":3866.045,"end":3883.595,"text":"為什麼你歧視我?你就歧視我?你封鎖我嗎?為什麼拿我的麥克風?他給我麥克風,他手上戴會員的麥克風,你為什麼不拿他的?你搶他的啊,你搶他的啊,為什麼搶我的?你為什麼搶我的麥克風?為什麼?麥克風交出來,一十人交出來"},{"start":3885.211,"end":3907.029,"text":"交出來!欸!章偉沒有那麼大連麥克風都在管!嘿!你要不要把我的茶杯收走?我的茶杯你要不要收走?我的茶杯還有我的椅子你要不要收走?我的椅子我沒有給你發言地位你不能發言地位他可是我醫師的工具啊!茶杯跟椅子都是我醫師的工具為什麼你收走我麥克風?你告訴我!我...你不要影響醫師進行啦你那影響醫師進行是你啦!不是我啦!"},{"start":3918.557,"end":3933.744,"text":"我願意要輪到誰誰講嗎?到順序來。往往的答案是嗎?來,還我麥克風。我麥克風還給我。還我麥克風。你要拿回去金門嗎?誒。誒。誒,你不要,你不要來。陳昇,來,麥克風還給我。誒,現在是怎麼亂掉的啊?"},{"start":4060.677,"end":4084.223,"text":"好,我們繼續,這個吳秉慧委員的,我們已經發文邀請這個衛部次長了吳秉慧委員的第2個,第3個,我講一下,聯部有來,次長有來,來那個,吳秉慧委員的第3個問題就是新北市的,新北市12位委員沒有請地方過來那委員們應該自己提議啦,這是委員的提議啦,接著我們請第3位"},{"start":4087.564,"end":4090.906,"text":"王定宇、委員王定宇、委員王定宇、委員王定宇、委員王定宇、委員"},{"start":4112.68,"end":4122.505,"text":"沒有機會問他啊!我們沒有機會問他!所有手上的麥克風都被消音了,為什麼呢?我的意思是說我們新北市的財政局長來的時候,我們沒有機會問他!他沒有要主動發言,不代表我們沒有權利問他問題吧!"},{"start":4139.079,"end":4153.578,"text":"我們的監督對象是中央官員不要把自己坐低了來王帝委員請發言不要把自己坐低了我們有全力邀請地方政府的官員來來列席啊我們已經邀請過多次那我邀請你還要再邀請啊警隊的王帝委員發言我邀請你還邀請啊他一口氣要給我們拿幾百億他不要來喔"},{"start":4157.93,"end":4175.344,"text":"我還要問他這麼多錢他要怎麼用?那這個錢夠不夠?雙一黨還要用得更多啊?我一定會回選區問你選區的意見請王定宇委員發言王定宇委員為什麼我不能主張我選區的權利王定宇委員請發言啊為什麼我不能主張我選區的權利王定宇委員有"},{"start":4177.356,"end":4189.004,"text":"吳秉樂委員你不要干擾王帝委員的發言吳秉樂委員你是不是願意讓王帝委員去發言我的問題你沒有回答,我是跟王帝委員無關吳秉樂委員你為什麼不邀請新北市政府來我沒有在這邊跟你們討論啊"},{"start":4209.712,"end":4224.701,"text":"來這個,這個,那你不要講話,五體委員會我來回答你的問題齁,各個縣市的財政處長什麼各個單位都已經來過很多次了,我們已經多次敦請他們發言,他們都表示不要發言了,我問這是我的權利,我現在問都不在啊!"},{"start":4234.708,"end":4244.601,"text":"對不起,我們執行的部的單位是中央部會,地方的話,你應該記住地方基層的民意代表的權利"},{"start":4248.254,"end":4270.528,"text":"三次為什麼來?本來就有權力邀請啊!不能讓三次為什麼來?我們已經邀請三次了。他們已經來過。我不能讓我們新北市政府選自己的問題嗎?新北市政府你覺得你不能代表新北市的民意嗎?我為什麼不行?我是新專選的咧!所以你來代表就像現在一樣。"},{"start":4274.593,"end":4282.046,"text":"各地方政府的財政局的相關單位也要來啊!沒有沒有!今天沒有官員還沒有!現在還沒有!黃帝維!我們這邊沒有官員!"},{"start":4286.041,"end":4307.173,"text":"我請你到這邊發言,我決定你到這邊發言,他要幹那你就當他要幹那因為今天是主條審查,我會問很多的意見,這個地方政府代表一定會來你上次問過不代表我沒問過了那我問一下大家一下好不好,你們可不可以回過要請他們都來,讓我市長授權的代表來,因為今天會有很多主條審查會處理到很多細節的部分"},{"start":4308.174,"end":4315.278,"text":"我委員會要求高雄的市長、副市長、人才坐下來,好不好?請你來坐。你們坐下我來採釋好不好?請我來坐。這個委員會委員,你提出的是說,大家可以安靜嗎?我們來回答。吳秉樂委員你的意思是說,希望各個地方還是要派代表來參加這個修法嗎?是不是?"},{"start":4334.251,"end":4336.096,"text":"我的意思是你注意聽我講什麼請他不要跟喔"},{"start":4340.62,"end":4364.351,"text":"新北市政府的財政局或是新北市政府要來為什麼我要問他說如果他多得這麼多錢他要怎麼花那他多得這些錢夠不夠他跟台北市說有的版本說台北市一定要保障3%他滿不滿意他不服務服務期之後決定為什麼台北市可以框定3%我們新北市不能框定5%"},{"start":4365.932,"end":4382.958,"text":"這些問題難道我不需要問他嗎?那你說到來這裡,來過他沒有意見不代表我現在不能問他啊!可以喔?我可以回答了嗎?好,請。你要問的這些問題,你身為一個地方的立法委員,你本來就應該在地方問清楚,來代表地方的民意,到中央來反映。"},{"start":4383.658,"end":4386.979,"text":"但我沒有你說話的地位,我先請,我沒有發言地位,還沒到,還沒到"},{"start":4410.259,"end":4437.188,"text":"主席的權力沒有那麼大吧?主席的權力有大到這種程度嗎?我要求邱雄的代表要來到現場。我要求邱雄的代表要來到現場。你還要教人家怎麼當立委?你再怎麼討論啊?你有那麼大?你就財政就有什麼意思嗎?我們一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十。"},{"start":4439.588,"end":4442.65,"text":"主席,你還不記得這一天?主席,你還不記得這一天?"},{"start":4463.832,"end":4469.377,"text":"朱立倫沒有那麼偉大啦!不用那麼聽朱立倫的啦!朱立倫沒那麼偉大啦!"},{"start":4488.609,"end":4515.074,"text":"而且你開會的通知是一、三、四喔!有三天的會議喔!你今天沒有開你可以邀請地方政府來啊!你也可以當財司啊!為什麼不能當財司?這也非常奇怪餒!難道今天就要強度關章嗎?是誰下給你的指令?要這麼聽話?這樣就非常的匪夷所思啊!難道是我們黨黨中央要指揮國民黨的立法院黨團嗎?有機會這麼聽話嗎?委員跟委員"},{"start":4516.766,"end":4538.774,"text":"我們財政委員會都沒有不如好好充分討論嗎?有這種道理嗎?兩個禮拜前你怎麼這樣說的啊?要讓大家倉儲議員啊?今天為什麼一定要進入主條?這沒有道理嘛!我這樣說你啊!陳一中委員!我再說你啊!這沒有道理嘛!哎啦!沒有開過這樣主持會議的啦!"},{"start":4540.162,"end":4556.951,"text":"等21人等22人等23人等24人等25人等26人等27人等27人等28人等28人等29人等30人等31人等32人等34人等35人等35人等36人等37人等38人等39人等40人等41人等42人等45人等45人等46人等47人等48人等49人等49人等50人等50人等51人等52人等53人等54人等55人等56人等56人等57人等57人等58人等58人等59人等59人等59人等60人等60人等60人等61人等61人等62人等62人等63人等63人等64人等65人等65人等67人等67人等68人等68人等69人等79人等70人等70人等80人等71人等71人等71人等71人等72人等71人等72"},{"start":4559.07,"end":4572.567,"text":"等23人等24人等25人等26人等27人等28人等29人等30人等31人等32人等34人等35人等36人等37人等38人等39人等40人等41人等42人等45人等45人等46人等47人等48人等49人等50人等51人等52人等53人等54人等55人等56人等56人等57人等57人等58人等59人等59人等59人等60人等60人等60人等61人等61人等62人等63人等63人等64人等65人等67人等67人等68人等68人等68人等69人等79人等70人等70人等70人等71人等71人等71人等72人等72人等72人等73人等73人等74人等74人等78人等78人等78人等79人等79人等79"},{"start":4575.754,"end":4589.172,"text":"發言地位我說沒有發言地位是我沒有主席沒有給發言地位你是不能發言的這是會會的ABC我給誰發言地位誰才可以發言我會讓每個人都有機會發言你要尊重其他委員也要發言好嗎"},{"start":4591.714,"end":4607.842,"text":"我沒有這樣講,我請他回去詢問民意,你應該回去地方詢問民意。陳一貞,陳一貞,我跟你講這個是金門的ABC,沒有是陳一貞講的算的,那又是這樣子啦,金門的ABC。"},{"start":4609.568,"end":4624.241,"text":"我講一個基本的點吼高雄的污染這麼多現在高雄還在舉警台北是綠的沒有空污的影響就台北直接分3%高雄連零都沒有這樣的事情不用請高雄市政府來說一下不用請台北市政府來說一下嗎"},{"start":4625.748,"end":4647.33,"text":"不要完全剝奪掉立委蓋的權限我再強調高雄現在空污嚴重高雄的空污是因為送電到中北部來高雄的空污是因為鋼鐵高雄的空污是因為石化產業付出這麼多這件事情不用做討論嗎?連高雄市政府要邀請他來陳玉珍都不接受邀請主席沒這麼大啦"},{"start":4648.82,"end":4652.324,"text":"阿如果全部都回去討論的話我沒有說不邀請喔是你們一直干擾喔"},{"start":4658.203,"end":4685.32,"text":"我再強調一次我再跟你說明一下立法院的職權行使法有必要的可以邀請各單位不是只有中央單位連地方政府也可以邀請第二個我有很多的問題想要問新北市的財政局局長包括說臺北市匡列的3%新北市為0他居然來這邊的時候他都沒有意見"},{"start":4686.501,"end":4708.829,"text":"這樣沒有愧對新北市的國市民嗎?這樣的財政局長不用下台嗎?新北市12個立委,為什麼我們的框的是0,台北市8個立委,他要框3%?那高雄、台南、台中、桃園都沒有框,其他的落後縣市也都沒有,那個財政比較弱勢的地方也沒有框,只有台北市框3%"},{"start":4710.826,"end":4734.186,"text":"吳秉瑞委員我沒有說不要邀請但是你一直干擾因為你的其他同仁一直干擾會議進行我都還沒有機會講所以如果大家都可以安靜下來每一位都有發言的機會我們會做採釋好嗎像我剛要採釋的時候賴樂榮、郭國英要一直干擾每個人都有我會邀請那可以讓我採釋嗎你們可以不要一直干擾會議進行嗎我會邀請可以我會邀請那我們現在"},{"start":4736.935,"end":4755.813,"text":"所以說你有那麼多自賣客房結果你還去搶了人家的花園民進黨民進黨都搶很久了沒有沒有沒有也沒有人到賴瑞榮賴瑞榮比我晚到那麼久啊對不對就是女生不想沒有意見不想意見"},{"start":4757.715,"end":4760.676,"text":"每一件事我當面要看是我們的因應方案是什麼嘛﹖他對於高雄"},{"start":4773.622,"end":4788.145,"text":"沒有分配到!他無重演奏!為台灣的環境服務這麼多!臺北直接可以拿3%!高雄0%!對!高雄4個!臺北1次!講到3%就只有臺北的3%了!你能讓他們講不出來只有3%!不接受的都不用多!"},{"start":4790.127,"end":4809.277,"text":"為什麼台北市金孫條款可以多3%?其他的縣市都沒有?台北市明明財政的自有財源最多、最高財政狀況最好為什麼他可以多3%?國民黨一直講不清楚這是金孫條款嗎?大孫搬到廁所?大孫給3%?哪有這種道理?阿今天要關市咧?要怎樣?"},{"start":4816.161,"end":4839.233,"text":"對嗎?為甚麼?為甚麼?台北市多3%?對嗎?蔣家第4代多3%?就這樣子?台北市可以多3%?為甚麼?道理從哪邊來?為甚麼可以多200多億?為甚麼?沒道理嘛!講不出來!其他縣市不能讓人家發言,哪有這種道理?"},{"start":4845.256,"end":4858.414,"text":"這裡向陳一貞委員抗議。我們所有手上拿的麥克風都沒有聲音。都沒有聲音。議事人員配合陳一貞主席消音。"},{"start":4861.549,"end":4889.056,"text":"非常沒有道理!議事人員!台北市可以多3%?那我問一下,謝榮介為什麼台南不能多3%?柯志恩、高雄為什麼不能多3%?很奇怪啊!你這裡這兩個人都選高雄市長、選台南市長的為什麼說台北市可以多3%?謝榮介應該出來講個話啊!對不對?柯志恩應該出來講個話,為什麼謝榮介、柯志恩都沒有來?怎麼服從金村條款嘛?"},{"start":4890.677,"end":4891.137,"text":"我們現在繼續開會齁剛剛的議程齁"},{"start":4911.188,"end":4930.065,"text":"剛剛的議程我們是進行到這個吳秉瑞委員的這個會議詢問嘛齁那剛剛本席還沒有回答結束啦齁但是因為受到其他委員的干擾但是我要先再澄清一下我馬上就要講了誰干擾你呢我要協商了你請等一下好嗎不要干擾好嗎我要協商了主席誰干擾你呢"},{"start":4931.306,"end":4931.526,"text":"主席是有權利給誰發言,第一位"},{"start":4960.046,"end":4964.807,"text":"等23人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋"},{"start":4984.612,"end":5009.625,"text":"我把程序讓大家清楚大家不要慌張我們今天有很多會議詢問我們還有請問10點前登記還沒有登記的請來登記每一位都有機會講每一位都有機會發言請其他人不要干擾會 等全部講完再第二輪好嗎等一下喔 等一下蔡議員說要協商你也可以登記會議詢問好 然後"},{"start":5013.379,"end":5031.167,"text":"然後呢剛剛說這個吳秉瑞委員是說回去問選區的意見不是回他家問回選區去問意見是應該的含量登記的可以來登記喔到這個10點以前截止登記我們要讓每個人都可以發言好嗎阿第二輪請等一下我不是說我回選區我說叫他來這邊我要問他來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":5037.37,"end":5051.146,"text":"都不要亂塞到我的嘴巴裡面我剛剛講的是要請新北市政府的財政局或是新北市政府來或是說我要回去地方那你不要說是我說我沒有這樣講啦是他說回家"},{"start":5055.49,"end":5058.733,"text":"黨團派代表來這裡協商一下,我們協商20分鐘,休息20分鐘協商"},{"start":5085.154,"end":5110.285,"text":"等一下開始開會要按鈴啦!欸,主席,我照規則沒等那麼久,現在是我自己直接上來就好了。不是啦,好好,我跟你講,這個法要好好立啦。地方政府的平行分配根本還沒有談好。我們這裡來自地方不分黨派的委員,地方分配就是因為太重要才會這麼多年這個法,很難討論嘛。"},{"start":5112.486,"end":5120.491,"text":"啊你現在只是協商方法地方財政局要不要表達意見地方的平行分配要不要讓委員來詢問然後這樣開會強度關山了陳先生委員"},{"start":5126.072,"end":5133.2,"text":"我跟你講你今天準備的程序不足啦我跟你講你不能你不能你不要當作這個倒過就好啊知識體大"},{"start":5145.294,"end":5153,"text":"所以我意思說我們今天就先...那還是有這麼多會議詢問還是要問啊?會議詢問讓他們問啊!剛剛吳秉銳說,今天有3、4、3天的會議嘛,你今天不用嘛,你可以到下禮拜嘛,他說今天就請大家講"},{"start":5169.813,"end":5171.014,"text":"我一定要新北市的財政局長以上"},{"start":5196.048,"end":5197.349,"text":"現在我沒辦法一致,我沒辦法"},{"start":5222.759,"end":5223.099,"text":"市長市長市長市長市長"},{"start":5243.822,"end":5250.764,"text":"還有地方制度法、還有公債法、還有地方...對!就是還沒有一定礙堂...那你怎麼...那你怎麼...那你怎麼...那你怎麼...那你怎麼...那你怎麼...那你怎麼..."},{"start":5266.038,"end":5287.821,"text":"主席時間還沒到啊時間還沒到還在協商啊你不用急著上台啊不用那麼快上班等一下等一下我們再協商一下不是單位要來而已還有包括上次有提到的事權跟財權相關的相關的法案跟意見要提出相關的部會意見它有沒有夠時間準備包括地方制度法包括公債法"},{"start":5288.422,"end":5312.633,"text":"包括地方稅法通則相關的法案當中要一併提出這是兩個禮拜之前陳玉珍召委所下的結論陳玉珍召委兩個禮拜下的結論不至於這個禮拜就忘記吧都還沒有執行對不對我在慎重的提醒不是相關單位還沒有你讓他休息一下因為你剛剛才是休息30分鐘有的不在場有的不在場齁"},{"start":5313.934,"end":5327.822,"text":"二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋"},{"start":5342.09,"end":5364.863,"text":"二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員羅明等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋"},{"start":5369.445,"end":5390.452,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":5403.319,"end":5417.974,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5425.379,"end":5450.404,"text":"你們倆剛剛在罵縣市那個我都有幫你們排上團給黨團應該黨團會幫你們撿出來我們不是在罵團我們不需要真的我們要問你啊第一個 剩下這麼多錢你要怎麼用第二個 剩下這樣你夠不夠啊第三個 台北市政府匡列了3%啊你沒有 新北都沒有你為什麼不表示意見主席說你沒有表示意見你為什麼不表示意見"},{"start":5460.012,"end":5465.478,"text":"我覺得第一個問題他們就回答不出來 增加那麼多選票怎麼用 他就回答不出來對啊 那這樣就證明說你這個程序就是要"},{"start":5478.831,"end":5480.212,"text":"挖中央的錢去浪費財政"},{"start":5508.642,"end":5518.745,"text":"人家配合我比較好。我被老公麥克風幫你關機,然後他那個小房間他把我閃了。什麼小房間?因為那個是陰控室。剛才我問那個異常人,他們說他們配合他。"},{"start":5548.239,"end":5560.007,"text":"喂喂喂喂,聲音測試小房間被神秘的打開了誒,議事人員又把音控擋開囉有沒有得到陳一貞委員的同意"},{"start":5561.284,"end":5563.266,"text":"議事人員又把音控打開囉!"},{"start":5581.144,"end":5588.031,"text":"我們也要想說快三打,我們要先打打,馬上就進入了對阿,對阿,對阿就問各個地方的教育局長阿"},{"start":5602.619,"end":5608.381,"text":"二、本院台灣民眾黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員"},{"start":5635.265,"end":5642.619,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":5669.906,"end":5698.285,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":5704.59,"end":5707.761,"text":"委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員洪孟楷等20人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅"},{"start":5755.105,"end":5767.054,"text":"二、本院台灣財政委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會"},{"start":5783.473,"end":5810.718,"text":"二、本院台灣財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會"},{"start":5816.664,"end":5827.102,"text":"二、本院台灣民眾黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋"},{"start":5841.049,"end":5853.602,"text":"二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委"},{"start":5861.146,"end":5874.414,"text":"二、本院台灣民眾黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員"},{"start":5882.159,"end":5909.497,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":5915.418,"end":5930.696,"text":"二、本院台灣民眾黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋"},{"start":5947.654,"end":5971.684,"text":"二、本院台灣財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》23案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》23案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》24案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》25案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》26案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》27案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》27案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分"},{"start":5977.671,"end":6004.701,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6007.09,"end":6026.566,"text":"二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷�"},{"start":6036.329,"end":6049.303,"text":"二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋"},{"start":6050.825,"end":6065.592,"text":"所要求、要來問的東西都是掛、掛、就不在稿委裡面。你為什麼要讓我進來訪問你?你為什麼要讓我進來訪問你?你為什麼要讓我進來訪問你?你為什麼要讓我進來訪問你?"},{"start":6069.313,"end":6085.078,"text":"二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋"},{"start":6086.498,"end":6106.149,"text":"二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋"},{"start":6111.032,"end":6118.66,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6133.549,"end":6153.287,"text":"二、本院台灣財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》23案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》24案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》25案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》26案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》27案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》28案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》29案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》30案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分"},{"start":6154.108,"end":6172.273,"text":"二、本院台灣財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》23案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》23案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》23案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》23案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》23案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》23案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》23案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》23案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分"},{"start":6181.664,"end":6187.858,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6190.657,"end":6195.118,"text":"二、本院台灣民眾黨黨統統委員會第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：繼續審查"},{"start":6216.277,"end":6222.774,"text":"二、本院台灣財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：繼續審查"},{"start":6232.108,"end":6253.575,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6260.087,"end":6280.244,"text":"國民黨本身最瘋狂跟最懲罰的就是公交,他們的懲罰法要求要不正確,公投他們沒有要求要來亂的啊。"},{"start":6283.596,"end":6287.752,"text":"等23人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人"},{"start":6294.882,"end":6311.609,"text":"我剛剛的講法是說我一定會對著黨團的承諾去選下一屆我問他下一屆說有需要下個會期或是下一屆我再來選我會宣告說我下個會期下次要他來選我來辦理這個法案我會選這個法案"},{"start":6320.151,"end":6344.589,"text":"我們現在繼續開會為了維持會場秩序請議事長把麥克風的音控關掉然後剛剛吳秉瑞委員所提出的就是各個縣市政府我們現在發函邀請各個地方尊重吳秉瑞委員的意見就是發函邀請各所有縣市政府派"},{"start":6346.61,"end":6357.046,"text":"二、派相關人員到本會來列席。現在發公文。還有尊重在……他要派誰我沒有辦法決定嘛。"},{"start":6359.952,"end":6383.268,"text":"我這是尊重地方縣市長說話因為我派財政局長他不派我也不能對他怎麼樣我的監督單位是中央部會嘛我這樣寫太不尊重地方縣市長了我們請派財政相關人員列席嘛你要尊重地方縣市長他自然知道哪個相關人員嘛我們尊重一下地方縣市長好不好我們怎麼可以要求他一定要派誰"},{"start":6385.967,"end":6408.553,"text":"不是,這個是地方政府在決定的嘛,我們怎麼可以僭越我們的,僭越,那你可以這樣做,你可以這樣,你可以說他不來你要扣10%,我沒有意見啊。對,我當然是給他自己,當然啊,是啊,當然啊,代委員說好,如果市長要來呢,對不對,那我們都尊重嘛。對對,我們都尊重地方政府,不能聽他決定什麼。"},{"start":6409.913,"end":6430.945,"text":"對啦 那反正我們發函邀請嘛 這個是這樣子嘛我當然不能指定誰來啊 我沒有這個權利啦好 他們會來是尊重他們然後接著還有剛剛胡平樂委員所說的衛福部次長以外我想大家都會覺得各個部會可能都有相關我們發函請各個部會喔 政務次長以上要來齁然後這個請我們就發函喔 禮拜三啦齁"},{"start":6432.866,"end":6454.238,"text":"主席,你登記一下發言好嗎?然後這個財化環節這麼重要的話,你就應該把麥克風關掉主席,在這裡再一次提醒你,如果財化環節這麼重要的話,你總是要維持一個秩序維持秩序就是不要用手持麥克風搶,每個人都沒有上來講,都有機會"},{"start":6457.299,"end":6472.702,"text":"當然是都要上來才能發言尊重其他委員的發言我為了要維持秩序不得已一定要請大家上來發言你現在也不應該站在這裡發言接著我們請范雲車請范委員發言做會議詢問請你的麥克風把它開出來聲音這個聲音非常重要的"},{"start":6485.986,"end":6487.732,"text":"竟然財化法是這麼重要的話"},{"start":6491.129,"end":6517.35,"text":"主席我有會議詢問主要是詢問主席為何不讓各界充分參與討論審慎規劃等到有一個有共識的草案之後我們再來推動修法我有幾個理由第一個理由是我想我們剛剛已經上一次也非常多人討論我也講過了目前我們看到光國民黨自己立委的版本"},{"start":6518.271,"end":6534.478,"text":"就是中央要釋出多少財源就南圓北側。曾政前委員的版本是中央應該釋出財源7633億。陳玉珍委員,我們今天的主席是328億。你們兩個人之間的差距就是7200億。"},{"start":6537.259,"end":6552.449,"text":"那同一個縣市剛剛我們有講地方政府沒有代表在這光雲林我們出生雲林的張家俊委員的版本是6612億那選出的丁學忠的委員的版本是3035億差距兩"},{"start":6556.035,"end":6582.637,"text":"好 接下來我來回答范委員的提問如果要繼續講請那個 如果要繼續講就請登記下一個提示好 我來回答范委員的提問你說的我們開會就是不能會而不意 意而不覺所以我們也尊重大家意見請各個地方縣市政府大家知道國土計劃法也沒有邀請各個縣市政府過來發言但是我們還是邀請啦好 接著請張雅琳委員 謝謝張委員"},{"start":6587.853,"end":6596.045,"text":"時間已經到,尊重下一位,等一下還有第二輪,可以繼續登記,可以繼續登記喔,等一下,等一下我們還會繼續登記喔,尊重後面的委員。"},{"start":6604.767,"end":6624.892,"text":"張雅琳委員,不在喔,張雅琳委員,那你請發言,我對不起,你不要站到發言台位置,請張委員發言,謝謝,請那位委員不要干擾張委員的發言時間,時間太短了,太短可以繼續登記,等一下有第二輪、第三輪、第四輪,好!"},{"start":6625.652,"end":6635,"text":"本期這樣宣布,如果大家都有這個意見,今天就開會,不會到5點半齁,繼續開齁,繼續延長,延長開會時間有沒有意見,沒意見,好,就這樣,來,請問張雅琳委員,對,會延長發言,會,會讓每個人有第二輪、第三輪、第四輪、第五輪,今天一定會開到5點半齁,開到12點齁繼續開,我們有三天的時間,會讓大家"},{"start":6652.875,"end":6668.854,"text":"大家唱首預言,大家可以準備挑燈夜戰。議事組,他們各位官員聽到,今天要挑燈夜戰喔。來,這個張海靈委員,我會讓大家唱首預言,講到大家不想講為止,來。各位部會要注意喔,今天要延長喔。"},{"start":6671.008,"end":6692.998,"text":"請正委員我想上次其實10月21號我們才開會來討論就是說要邀請地方縣市來跟做一些討論來做一些更清楚的去整合那上次呢其實我有詢問過財政部就是說地方其實意見非常非常難整合那我就非常擔心因為現在我們可以看到我們現在地方財政紀律很"},{"start":6693.578,"end":6708.464,"text":"他紀律不佳的案例例如我們創造很多的文資館、博物館、訓練場浪費了20多億元那現在呢在我們這個如果我們要用這種現在這一種不討論事權只拿錢不辦事的方案去執行的時候"},{"start":6709.224,"end":6733.48,"text":"我們現在可能會受到影響的方案就會有少子化、少子女化計劃等學前教育0到2歲的托育津貼、托育公共化及准公共化服務暨托育還有我們現在颱風剛過我們現在其實非常需要排水防洪的計劃可是我們現在完全不知道這些財政機率不佳的縣市要怎麼執行例如可能"},{"start":6735.224,"end":6735.764,"text":"王定宇委員"},{"start":6765.914,"end":6782.103,"text":"請王定義委員,謝謝主席,建議你不要卡麥克風,我們都希望把這個法修好因為大家一直干擾會議進行啦,大家軍政會議...好,重新開始可以啊"},{"start":6801.823,"end":6826.619,"text":"我們會加時間給你啊事實上他不開麥克風是他自己的錯誤,也也人家他不想開,好,尊重他從來啦從來啦從來啦從來這一個,欸,那個有閒雜人等阿桑在講話拜託制止一下啦嘿"},{"start":6830.011,"end":6830.211,"text":"財政劃支法"},{"start":6841.974,"end":6863.216,"text":"不管誰執政當總統其實都有提到過為什麼多年來難以去把他修法完成各位親愛的同事不管你是哪個黨派這個牽涉到地方的財政而今天我們必須了解地方政府對於平行分配的準則比方說像苗栗"},{"start":6864.177,"end":6883.82,"text":"秒立他的財政困難,他要怎麼分配比較好?比方說縱北、青南、高雄跟台南應該怎麼分配比較好?為什麼首都莫名其妙多了3%?為什麼沒有?這些都應該要討論可是我們看到的是,地方財政首長沒有來以外我直接問了台南市的財政局長,他反對啊"},{"start":6885.309,"end":6899.7,"text":"這個不是多數決這不是分財產用表決的方式這牽涉到國家制度第二個中央跟地方的垂直分配牽涉到中央統籌的不管是福利、交通、國防、外交"},{"start":6900.18,"end":6927.951,"text":"重大經貿政策等,這個分配比例,它既科學又藝術,這也是多年來在討論的,這也應該好好討論。第三個,它牽涉到法律,不管是公債法、地方的稅收法,還是我們的財政劃支法,牽涉到部會者重。所以今天我很遺憾的,我們會議請問的是,為什麼我們不能質詢相關的官員?今天我們沒有登記質詢單。我相信每一個委員,不管他來自哪個..."},{"start":6929.712,"end":6955.189,"text":"我回答王定義委員的發言王定義委員是第一次到本委員會來發言吧地方縣市政府已經來了兩次以上了台南市財政局長或是代表也有對不起已經到我給了你兩分鐘請回去看錄影帶我已經給了你兩分鐘了然後台南市的財政單位上次有上來講話我給了你兩分鐘好謝謝"},{"start":6959.113,"end":6987.909,"text":"我給了你兩分鐘比其他人還多因為剛剛你說比較晚開始你問一下我們議事人是不是寄了兩分鐘給他寄了兩次的一分鐘給你第一次你說有少好接著我們請賴銳龍委員發言賴銳龍委員發言請發言你做會議請問我回答你請賴銳龍委員發言你可以登記第二次因為我竣動後面的委員讓每個人都有機會"},{"start":6989.892,"end":7013.274,"text":"等大家問完就第二次,不用擔心,你可以來登記,等大家發言完了,現在第一輪已經有二、三十個了,沒有衝突,來,現在有,來,熱衡委員請發言,謝謝。請來熱衡委員發言。那這樣子,如果,我現在宣告,如果有人站在主席台,站在發言台,那請到這邊發言。好,我們兩邊都可以,沒關係。好,請來熱衡委員發言,謝謝。"},{"start":7017.298,"end":7018.12,"text":"尊重每個委員發言的權利"},{"start":7035.293,"end":7040.935,"text":"主席各位同仁我想財劃法相當重要那我認為當在做主條的時候特別在大體或主條的時候一定要讓所有的充分來討論因為每一個都會牽涉到"},{"start":7054.64,"end":7078.019,"text":"這個不容易啦 如果那麼容易的話不會經過5次的都沒辦法通過啦所以這件事情知識體大對地方政府、對中央都很大的影響我認為一定要好好充分討論那也一定要邀請地方政府的代表市長願意來很好副市長願意來也很好或者他授權財政局來都可以但是一定要來因為每個立委針對每一個條文都會有充分的意見要去詢問他這個一定要做到所以我期望"},{"start":7078.539,"end":7107.578,"text":"等到所有的這些首長們來了以後再來進行所以我希望今天要不就等到他們來要不就等到禮拜三再來處理我希望大會主席做個才事第二個是我還是要強調高雄今天早上出發從高雄來到台北的時候高雄是局景這個超過100空氣的局景而台北是綠的這個是冬天的常態高雄的局景是因為高雄過去以來它的重工業城市它的鋼鐵、它的石化、它的台電"},{"start":7109.139,"end":7133.352,"text":"台電電力一發往中往北送,高雄只擁有60%的電力,40%的電力是往北送天然氣跟燃煤都在做,所以這些都是高雄不斷為台灣經濟所付出的而在這些財政的劃分的比例上面,我過去從來沒有重視過這件事情所以我的提案,我希望能夠慎重重視這個問題但是我看到了國民黨提案在16條之一,因為首都就加了3%"},{"start":7134.392,"end":7152.861,"text":"對於一個首都直接加3% 佔盡了所有的優勢而高雄作為共眾工業城市 污染對台灣的經濟富裕這麼多 完全沒有所以我認為這件事情 我要聽高雄市政府的想法 我也要聽所有各部會的想法同時間我希望在審查的時候 各委員都能夠審酌來討論我認為 這個才是一個公平正義的一個狀態所以我希望 第一個"},{"start":7158.744,"end":7170.255,"text":"等到他們來,再來審。禮拜三再來做這個進行程序。第二個,我希望能夠慎重的聽到我們的意見。慎重聽到我們的意見。不要讓重工業的城市..."},{"start":7179.805,"end":7180.265,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":7197.313,"end":7222.86,"text":"的那個版本你如果對高雄也應該增加3%、2%你也可以提出來喔好接著我們請陳俊宜委員發言你第一個是好有我們已經尊重大家的意見就是邀請各縣市相關的人不管他們要縣市長來、財政局長來我們都邀請那今天大家都還沒有講完看大家講到幾點對不對你今天叫他來也不好意思嘛那我們請他禮拜三要過來對是的謝謝賴委員"},{"start":7225.741,"end":7233.887,"text":"禮拜三會邀請各縣市的相關人員還有各部會政務次長以上來這邊列席禮拜三財化法這麼的重要我希望能夠有比較完整完善的一個討論因為財化法已經25年未修了希望未來的這個修法可以符合大家的期待"},{"start":7256.038,"end":7280.932,"text":"因為財政是肅政之母那缺乏健全的財政作為後盾的話政府的一切施政將無法順利的展開那我有幾項建議第一項就是希望在穩健的財政的基礎條件之上我們的統籌分配稅額規模可以擴大"},{"start":7281.857,"end":7293.642,"text":"第二、對於直轄市還有縣市的標準應該是要一致第三、要考量區域的平衡適度地針對各縣市的需求調節營需第四"},{"start":7297.523,"end":7313.052,"text":"希望這個同時來檢視地方的政府財政努力的程度給予合理的補助那我希望說我們針對這個部分應該是有比較完善的討論能夠讓所有的立委能夠表達我們的意見"},{"start":7315.553,"end":7337.203,"text":"謝謝陳俊宇委員發言會我們會給大家充分發言時間不管會詢問程序發言會有逐條討論大家都有充分的時間那因為我們會控制時間是因為還有第二輪嘛講完還要講像上次講到第三輪都沒人要講啦所以因為我們要讓每個人都有發言的機會接著我們請李昆城委員李委員謝謝"},{"start":7351.257,"end":7366.894,"text":"等一下主席在我會議詢問之前齁我先來一個權宜問題我們每個委員講完之後可不可以請你不要做評論每次講完之後你就做評論啊我一次回答會議詢問我沒有評論是你們問我我只好回答你不要問我就不用回答你這個問題已經問過很多次了你怎麼可以再問"},{"start":7369.657,"end":7398.528,"text":"我沒有說你可以再問,你們當然可以再問每個委員都是獨立的個體每個委員他有怎麼問是他的事情阿對不對那你信不信要你的問題我來回答,如果不希望我就沒有你就不用不用我講完之後你就回答好你講完你只是要講話每個每個委員都一樣那李昆哲委員我就不回答了因為你這個是會議詢問阿你不是針對會議詢問你每次都針對個別委員會議我會很冤枉欸我回答會議詢問也不行喔沒有阿你這個不是會議詢問的答覆那你進入會議詢問吧你每一次都是"},{"start":7398.928,"end":7400.59,"text":"請你進入會議請問有問題耶"},{"start":7420.373,"end":7430.4,"text":"全議問題啊!時間重來啊!我這個不是問題館長!李坤正維你要不要進行會議詢問?你要不要進行會議請開始啊!時間重來!重來!重來!好!重來!開始啊!我這個是全議問題,不是會議詢問啊!好!請開始進行會議詢問!不是啊!你要先答應我啊!我的全議問題要先做才是啊!如果你們不問我,我就不會回答!等一下!時間用!我這個是全議問題,不是會議詢問啊!"},{"start":7443.929,"end":7453.437,"text":"如果你們不問我,我是不會回答。剛剛代理人委員就要求我一定要回答。所以我一定要回答。時間暫停啦!時間暫停啦!你又在跑!我會補你,你不用擔心。我這個是全委員會提出的會議詢問。"},{"start":7462.124,"end":7488.458,"text":"等下喔所以我這個權宜問題你要開始講了嗎等下我要先要求你啊可不可以個別委員講完之後你不要去做價值評論委員每個委員如果不詢問我你是要查會議詢問我當然就要回答你如果放棄會議詢問我也可以不用回答不是人家不是會議詢問我也很辛苦啊好不好會議詢問你回答你可以回答比如說人家讓你回覆就回答那你不需要我回答對吧不要不要OK好那你開始詢問吧你不用答覆我好我不用答覆"},{"start":7488.598,"end":7497.564,"text":"可以嗎?每個委員也都是一樣每個人有自己的權利,你決定自己的你要開始問了嗎?你要開始問了嗎?你要開始問了嗎?你要開始問了嗎?你要開始問了嗎?你要開始問了嗎?你要先回答我啊,先回答我啊你現在要我回答"},{"start":7512.714,"end":7517.158,"text":"主席尊重李村城委員,在你做完詢問以後我不回答,那我們現在開始會議詢問,謝謝"},{"start":7537.538,"end":7564.757,"text":"好 今天齁 在談這個談話法那其實呢 我之前已經有提過了齁 這個是跟權 錢跟權要一起來談嘛那今天呢 這個地方制度法我看也沒有在談啊齁 而且呢 很重要的是說齁現在為什麼要讓台北市有這個3%好 先讓3% 先框3%給台北市這個不是什麼首都條款吶這個是金孫條款吶為什麼台北市還可以有3%"},{"start":7565.698,"end":7587.772,"text":"我看喔,上次的這個新北市的財政局局長來,他說讓3%沒有關係,因為他說什麼?他說侯友宇說,侯友宇市長說,當老大哥就要老大哥的樣子,所以他說可以讓利。新北市為什麼可以讓利?新北市為什麼可以讓利?莫名其妙嘛,所以如果禮拜三,"},{"start":7589.065,"end":7600.503,"text":"新北市財政局局長來,我就要問他為什麼洪瑋瑜說新北市老大哥還可以讓利三趴?為什麼可以讓利?我們新北市人口最多啊!為什麼要先讓利?"},{"start":7604.409,"end":7629.078,"text":"然後因為要會議詢問的委員很多第一輪剛登記完畢等一下我們就開始開放第二輪登記到11點然後會議詢問結束有誠信發言然後還有會議詢問的第二輪好嗎然後接著我們請如果要登記的剛才我看沈博洋委員要上來登記第二輪就可以上來登記好嗎接著請郭益勳委員謝謝對不起你看我們是郭益勳委員"},{"start":7630.931,"end":7641.241,"text":"國疫情委員有在嗎?要發言可以登記第二輪,我們還有第二輪等委員會有程序發言,請發言國疫情委員"},{"start":7647.116,"end":7666.321,"text":"你少講一點就會比較前面你不要我回答第二輪可以開始登記登記到11點第二輪可以來登記歡迎大家來登記第二輪請郭一行委員發言李坤貞委員不要侵犯到郭委員的權利請尊重後面的委員好嗎請每個委員都有發言機會大家輪流來來請郭委員謝謝"},{"start":7673.615,"end":7698.308,"text":"等一下我發言之前,主席可以不要評論我的那個...我不回答你的會議詢問就對了,好,OK,謝謝希望要說到做到喔對,對,對,沒有啦,郭議員不對嗎?是我啊,是我,呵呵呵,好好好郭議員有兩位啊,郭議員兩位啊,你要講清楚啊郭議員啊,這個有寫啊,郭議員,上面有寫啊,郭議員好我說的是郭議員委員嘛"},{"start":7704.659,"end":7732.246,"text":"就說他們長得很像嗎?叫郭義勳委員你幹嘛?不要提出我為了主席!你連臉可不可以提出你們搞不好!你跟彥鑫的長相都提出你們搞不好!不要這樣啦!你會被...性別平等啦!我們這個...我請郭義勳委員發言啦!好好好!OK!好我想這個地方...好我想這個地方其實要提升自己的財政能力不是只有從中央挖錢啦!我想這個..."},{"start":7733.466,"end":7760.831,"text":"應該主席你也同意嘛我舉個例子來講現在其實光是國民黨跟民眾黨他們的整個所有的版本總共有18個18個自己都還沒有統一我用例子來告訴大家這是什麼樣的一個概念父母把小孩養得非常好提供他從小到大的整個不管是升學也好照顧也好全部幫他照顧得好好的父母還沒走喔這些小孩開始想要分遺產了"},{"start":7762.071,"end":7790.058,"text":"好分完遺產之後呢他們之後因為不善理財不善理財之後導致所謂的舉債過度我舉個例子來講齁在2016年被彈劾被監察院彈劾的苗栗苗栗縣的縣長劉正宏他就是因為在財政部好謝謝郭委員喔可以登記第二輪請洪孟楷委員發言喔"},{"start":7791.821,"end":7810.289,"text":"黃孟楷在嗎?黃碼跟誰交換?請王宏威委員發言他們兩個交換王宏威委員王宏威委員在嗎?王宏威委員可以登記第二輪王宏威委員發言郭義賢委員不要干擾後面委員的程序"},{"start":7813.072,"end":7833.709,"text":"你可以登記啦沒關係還有第二輪大家尊重如果大家覺得說不夠還有第三輪、第四輪、第五輪請王后衛委員我給你30秒你給我一聲是不是30秒呼一聲喔好啦6分鐘是6分鐘呼一聲喔這衛教宣導"},{"start":7847.823,"end":7865.918,"text":"還有第二輪嘛第二輪腳還有第三輪嘛我們今天會開到我們今天會開到超分業站吃宵夜大家不用擔心如果大家願意也可以繼續一直開沒關係齁不斷電喔來各位你再講很快講一下好嗎齁"},{"start":7869.955,"end":7896.686,"text":"我剛剛講的其實就是苗栗縣卸任劉政宏縣長他當初就是因為舉債過度造成了所謂的地方政府的財政危機嘛那到後來其實這個徐耀昌的這個縣長的時候其實光是欺欠因為前任欺欠了6億連縣府員工的薪水都發不出來是跟誰求救就是跟中央求救嘛也就是說這些孩子分了財產之後不好好的理財結果"},{"start":7898.027,"end":7925.037,"text":"在外面負債還是要爸媽來付這不對啊這是兩邊在挖錢啊所以不能不把這樣的事情放在前面剛剛其實那位委員有特別講我們的地方政府他們本身的訴求其實不一樣有人是工業他是用廢在拼經濟有的是農業說我已經犧牲我自己發展工業的一個權利每個地方的事權也都不一樣謝謝各位30秒了齁好你可以登記第二輪然後委員請發言喔"},{"start":7927.5,"end":7931.762,"text":"我看到很多委員提出很多的問題請大家去查6月5號"},{"start":7956.295,"end":7979.391,"text":"我們本委員會在羅明才召委召開公聽會之下我們所有的縣市政府的財主單位都到了我們財委會去報告那麼當時所有的縣市財主單位包含高雄、包含台南、包含屏東全部都支持來修正財劃法"},{"start":7980.692,"end":7999.169,"text":"所以我也來建議我們所有的委員你們可以到網路上有非常完整的會議記錄所有你們剛才所提的各縣市的財政財主單位都有在委員會報告都希望修正財劃法"},{"start":8000.37,"end":8021.309,"text":"而我們現在所提出來的包含新北市增加超過300億元高雄市超過300億元難道你們覺得增加是不對的嗎這樣子的一個說法真的很奇怪跟我在6月5號當天我所聽到的各縣市財組單位的話"},{"start":8024.651,"end":8033.019,"text":"謝謝王宏威委員齁謝謝齁要繼續發言請登記第二輪李彥秀委員喔欸?彥秀在嗎?李彥秀委員喔請那個李彥秀委員發言喔謝謝"},{"start":8044.575,"end":8052.963,"text":"李燕秀委員,如果大家減少會議干擾就會比較快速,可以登記第二輪,大家訓練一下,請李燕秀委員發言"},{"start":8060.316,"end":8086.604,"text":"好,歷史真的是一面照妖鏡6月5號今天不是財化法第一次的審查其實已經開過好幾次會議地方縣市首長也來過很多次但是民進黨從過去無論是賴清德自己在當市長潘孟安也好、張花冠也好還有包括李永德過去都認為財化法是不公不義要想辦法把財化法修正修大、修好"},{"start":8088.385,"end":8096.156,"text":"但是今天要修財劃法請問財政部這麼多年民進黨執政第9年了版本在哪裡?"},{"start":8097.628,"end":8124.779,"text":"中央是集權要集權地方活得像乞丐一樣每一次來到巡政院會要看關愛的眼神這一次要給多少地方永遠沒辦法做地方社福也好財政也好做更好完全的規劃更何況很多政策是中央請客地方買單所以地方真的活得非常辛苦民進黨現在的做法"},{"start":8126.4,"end":8132.664,"text":"就是以拖代變不想修直接是打臉過去的賴清德"},{"start":8151.482,"end":8173.527,"text":"好那剛剛很明顯齁這個大家都講不完齁這個希望等一下在下一次的時候我們可以講長一點齁那當然了這個我們是從國防外交的角度來看齁因為大家都一直在講說地方財政的問題齁地方財政需要多少錢但你把錢花到地方的話你中央就會少錢而中央現在少最多的其實會可能是我們的國防預算他會少2900多億那這個2900多億以國防部來講"},{"start":8176.368,"end":8191.657,"text":"他知不知道他今天會被拿走這樣的一個預算國防部需不需要出來告訴來社會大眾或者甚至來參與這個討論有可能是更重要的事所以對我們來講我們一直在提到說地方上大家應該要站出來但是卻沒有想到"},{"start":8192.057,"end":8216.657,"text":"中央現在不管哪一個部會,財源都會減少的狀況之下0到20歲啊什麼等等之類的一些原民的補助啊這些全部都會被拿掉那我想說這是各黨總召也不樂見的情形所以我建議中央其實也應該來跟地方一起來共同討論而不是只有地方來討論這件事情那最後這一個我還是要提到就是說我們現在的順位來講第二個還包含各項的這些專項計畫"},{"start":8217.998,"end":8246.064,"text":"那以花蓮來講有非常多的預算其實都沒有辦法執行那以地方政府如果說剛剛李燕秀有提好 謝謝沈伯陽委員我們有邀請這個國防部也有過來各部位都有邀請接著請羅美玲委員發言謝謝羅美玲委員在嗎羅美玲委員羅美玲委員有在嗎有在嗎羅美玲委員在嗎"},{"start":8248.357,"end":8248.677,"text":"羅美玲委員請發言"},{"start":8279.808,"end":8280.85,"text":"財政收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：繼續審查"},{"start":8299.332,"end":8321.15,"text":"財化法到底是要垂直分配先行還是水平分配先行?這個部分,行政單位跟委員的想法其實都不一樣。不單單如此,各個委員當中提出了20幾個修法的版本,每個版本其實差異性都非常的大。剛剛鳳姨委員也有提出來,"},{"start":8321.971,"end":8340.869,"text":"那連同黨同縣市的這個立委所提出的這個版本差異性都非常的大真的不知道如何要來審查我也不知道為什麼主席這個能夠排得下去那現在呢藍白要從中央搬錢到地方那只知道要錢可是事權呢"},{"start":8342.33,"end":8359.311,"text":"這些錢要怎麼花完全沒有來做討論所以本席認為要修財劃法要討論的空間非常的多不單單是權要討論提使地方自治法也要一併來討論我想相關的法案都要來通盤前面性的討論才好謝謝讀委員"},{"start":8362.114,"end":8386.004,"text":"羅委員說的有道理喔你說的這個因為上一次你沒有來不知道我們已經跟在上次委員會已經宣布財政部內政部的地方製度法財政部的地方稅法通則還有相關的這個財政紀律法都要請趕快提出修正的版本喔上一回就已經有提過了接著請莊瑞雄委員發言"},{"start":8387.364,"end":8407.818,"text":"如果要發言請登記第二輪,請莊委員喔。羅美林委員所提的上一次就已經討論過了。來,那個莊瑞雄委員不在是嗎?你們有要換的嗎?莊瑞雄?莊瑞雄?莊瑞雄不在喔?在嗎?換了嗎?換?莊瑞雄不在?換伍立華,換伍立華,好。我們請伍立華委員發言喔。"},{"start":8418.081,"end":8434.993,"text":"財化法是在國民黨執政多數的時候立的法那時過境遷需要修法也該修法但是我們都是主張說要有共識為什麼這麼說因為過了這麼久為什麼雷大不雨"},{"start":8435.794,"end":8464.471,"text":"就是因為真的地方的財主單位不是傻瓜他們都很會算真的有利可圖嗎我們明明看到這個財劃法是中央地方要通力合作那這8年呢長短期的負債是逐年的下降我們看到地方的補助款也是逐年的上升我舉一個最簡單的例子我們原住民遍佈的文件站從9年前的不到1億現在是一年13億"},{"start":8465.712,"end":8492.26,"text":"我再舉一個例子像就業服務法22年前就有提一個修法原住民人口達2萬人以上應該要設公立的原住民就業機構但是縣市政府都不設我最後是請勞動部來補助所以我在這個地方要特別講現在對我來講這些都是假議題我講一個真議題就是我從上一個屆起我就有提財化法修第三條"},{"start":8493.22,"end":8512.849,"text":"那個就是2010年我們六都合併之後曾經一度失去公法人2014恢復公法人竟然沒有給這些直轄市的園民區財政獨立我一直講你看冤枉了多少年財化法這一題我覺得才是真議題"},{"start":8513.949,"end":8530.655,"text":"無委員你這個意見很好我剛剛第三條我們已經有注意到上次也提過了齁那會這一次會以有列入修正齁大家一起來討論喔謝謝無委員喔接著我們請林楚英委員然後原委會也有來參與會議嘛林楚英委員欸林楚英委員在嗎"},{"start":8539.38,"end":8562.69,"text":"好 謝謝主席喔 因為剛剛我只有26秒但我希望能夠讓我講完主席是非常認真的這個財委會的召委喔但是本席要特別剛剛去了解了一下其實過去我們在娛樂稅、囤房稅、地方稅法通則都有邀請地方政府出席那這一次沒錯財劃法我們在首次審查跟公聽會的時候地方政府也有來"},{"start":8563.51,"end":8591.144,"text":"但是在這兩次的會議當中其實地方政府都沒有針對水平分配達成共識每一個都是講說錢拿到了我們再來考慮怎麼花但是不能有這樣的想法因為地方政府必須要先想好當錢來了之後的這個錢隨事權做轉移的時候那麼到底事權有沒有統一的做法跟想法"},{"start":8591.946,"end":8595.642,"text":"剛剛有委員說地方政府像乞丐一樣跟中央要錢"},{"start":8597.341,"end":8624.394,"text":"我相信中央地方應該都是要合作的錢給了地方,地方要想好再來本席因為是不分區所以我考慮到的是不論南北或者是人口稀少的地方每一個都要有一定的分配標準如果分配標準沒有談出來的時候我們坐在這裡討論其實是給地方更大的壓力跟彼此之間的更大的不公平"},{"start":8632.988,"end":8641.578,"text":"上一回在開會的時候"},{"start":8646.113,"end":8672.515,"text":"謝謝上一次在開會的時候我們有請所有地方政府都有過來然後我們也再次詢問他們有沒有意見一直給他們時間後來有四個地方政府上來講發言其他的也有一位用書面的報告其他現在我都不願意再繼續沒有再願意表示意見我沒有給時間然後就林主任委員意見很好謝謝林委員那也請你落實不要只是用說我沒有看到你有相關提案請你做出相關提案比較有幫助吧"},{"start":8674.137,"end":8674.737,"text":"章智倫委員"},{"start":8691.649,"end":8692.209,"text":"請張志仁委員發言"},{"start":8713.72,"end":8715.241,"text":"好,非常感謝主席啊"},{"start":8725.676,"end":8726.316,"text":"請張志榮委員發言,請尊重"},{"start":8750.926,"end":8775.035,"text":"感謝主席、各位委員、各位官員大家早大家今天非常熱烈的在討論財劃法從民國88年到現在25年的財劃法都沒有修了該是修財劃法的時間了尤其今天我拿這個看板給大家看新北市400萬人結果財劃法給過去25年來給新北的人均都是最低的"},{"start":8775.555,"end":8791.173,"text":"那今天很可惜還是沒有看到財政部推出版本不過我相信只要立法院充分的討論在我們召委這麼認真我們看了這麼多次委員會大家充分討論之下我相信全民的共識就是應該中央地方一起合作"},{"start":8791.753,"end":8818.685,"text":"所以今天非常感謝我們召委這樣的排案希望說不管朝野大家一起來努力把一些過去的一些陋習過去一些不公平在這次修法的時候大家充分討論讓六讀我們這次大家知道剛剛風最近公布台台剛過我們很多地方的災情到現在也是需要經費來讓我們家園重新再回覆所以今天如果充分討論我相信財化法通過才是全民之福拜託拜託"},{"start":8821.433,"end":8825.578,"text":"謝謝張志榮委員接著請林代化委員發言林委員在嗎?"},{"start":8827.057,"end":8850.815,"text":"林鄭萬委員在嗎?林鄭萬委員不在喔接著我們請陳培毅委員陳培毅委員陳培毅委員陳培毅委員在嗎?不發言是嗎?陳委員你要發言嗎?陳委員你要發言好大家維持秩序繼續好現在休息下午再繼續了"},{"start":8857.819,"end":8859.927,"text":"我們現在開始休息,下午2點半繼續"},{"start":8889.533,"end":8902.637,"text":"二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋"},{"start":8908.055,"end":8931.844,"text":"二、本院台灣財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員"},{"start":8940.808,"end":8967.567,"text":"等21人等22人等22人等23人等24人等25人等26人等27人等28人等28人等29人等30人等31人等32人等34人等35人等36人等37人等38人等39人等40人等41人等42人等43人等44人等45人等46人等47人等48人等49人等49人等50人等50人等51人等52人等53人等54人等56人等56人等57人等57人等57人等58人等58人等59人等59人等59人等60人等60人等60人等61人等61人等62人等62人等63人等63人等64人等64人等65人等65人等67人等68人等67人等68人等68人等69人等69人等79人等70人等70人等71人等71人等71人等71人等72"},{"start":8971.258,"end":8996.417,"text":"二、本院台灣財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員"},{"start":9002.246,"end":9006.24,"text":"等23人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人"},{"start":21606.769,"end":21612.375,"text":"第二輪,好,謝謝,現在我們繼續會議,請陳佩玉委員做會議詢問,謝謝一樣啊,要公平齁,沒有,可以登記第二輪、第三輪、第四輪、第五輪齁第三輪、第四輪可以等一下再討論齁陳委員請發言"},{"start":21630.27,"end":21653.41,"text":"在短短的一分鐘之內我還是要先謝謝主席給了我從來沒有過的體驗不管是我以前在上課或是我到立法院來上班之後所有的質詢、所有的討論都必須要在一分鐘之內完成主席剛剛在洗手間的時候還要特別的提醒我現在是會議詢問那麼我強烈要求主席"},{"start":21656.553,"end":21669.127,"text":"如果等一下你要針對每一個委員的發言都有所評論也請你控制你自己的時間在一分鐘以內我想這樣是比較公平的另外我只剩下20秒"},{"start":21671.67,"end":21671.69,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":21701.365,"end":21721.257,"text":"你要讓我...我...謝謝 謝謝陳培...謝謝陳委員下次輪到你當主席的時候你可以這樣要求齁不過今天主席是陳玉珍齁 來主席主席要再跟你做會議詢問我覺得只有一分鐘的話實在是時間太短太短了如果要讓大家充分的一個花言的話應該是時間要長一點"},{"start":21730.134,"end":21756.018,"text":"公聽會已經開過兩次而且已經請各縣市都來發言過了下一輪我們再來討論下一輪我們要第二輪嘛第二輪可以第三輪還有第四輪第五輪每個人都有發言的機會不用擔心那公聽會已經請各縣市都來過了現在都只是在進行程序就是大家是在做會議詢問的程序那大家如果趕快把這個會議的詢問的程序結束以後我們就趕快進入實際的這個討論"},{"start":21759.319,"end":21766.484,"text":"幾分鐘是主席決定下次你當主席你也可以做這樣的決定這是我的全責接著我們請蔡議員謝謝謝謝蔡議員我是皇帝啦我是女的"},{"start":21789.8,"end":21808.255,"text":"主席齁這個一分鐘的時間我想跟主席再確認一下因為我們今天的會議程序當然就是我們很強調的就是說你整個財劃法你的修法你必須要把這個水平分配然後各縣市各地方政府他要達到"},{"start":21809.436,"end":21837.149,"text":"他們基本上他們的論述到底是怎樣而且他們對於合理的分配的數目我認為這是要經過討論的包括剛剛有很多位委員也都起來說台北市它就保障3%這個在其他的六都並沒有這樣那我想這個3%它的道理到底還存不存在過去為了台北市那整個中央政府的資源事實上有很多公共建設都集中在"},{"start":21837.809,"end":21840.271,"text":"等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人"},{"start":21856.145,"end":21882.211,"text":"或者是其他縣政府說我希望有怎樣的比照那第二個我是認為說因為你既然存在這樣的一個前提我們如果禮拜三地方政府來了我們不要急著就是說好那就馬上進入主條然後從第一條開始討論第二條開始第三條這樣的話就失去了我們邀請地方政府來然後讓他們大家充分表達意見的機會所以我希望禮拜三的程序中我們一定要"},{"start":21884.271,"end":21911.409,"text":"讓地方政府表達意見然後可以讓我們在場的各位委員那也針對財劃法不管是每一個委員的版本之後會相對應到地方政府的影響範圍這部分都必須要透過這樣的一問一答絕對不是說我們大家就坐在這個主條討論的會議桌這裡就可以講出一個所以然來所以我希望主席的話你都程序面因為你一直強調會讓大家參與會議員"},{"start":21914.432,"end":21928.732,"text":"那我就認為說我剛剛講的那個幾點是非常的重要地方政府來的時候要讓每一個地方政府表達他的意見那也許有的地方政府來了會會相當支持國民黨包括主席"},{"start":21930.987,"end":21960.53,"text":"我來回答你的問題喔,謝謝你喔好,來喔第一個喔,所以我們來謝謝蔡委員的這個詢問喔很好喔那我來回答喔第一個就是我們已經發函邀請各縣市的地方政府要派這個當然他們要派什麼呢我不能決定但是我們要派相關人員過來那我覺得蔡議員這樣的提議也非常的好請在發的公表要求請求拜託各縣市政府也要提出他們的想法也要請他們,請求因為我們不能強迫嘛他可以不要嘛對不對"},{"start":21961.35,"end":21987.807,"text":"請求說他們附上我把整個回答完請求附上如果他們有意見請他們要附書面的這個報告請各地方政府要附上書面的報告那他們到這裡以後來不是啊我們大家先看嘛這樣比較好這樣對大家審查比較對我要把它講完你剛剛提的就是這個嘛第一個就是希望各地政府都可以表達意見嘛所以我們請他提這個請各地政府提書面報告"},{"start":21989.788,"end":22009.08,"text":"對對對我再回答他的然後接著呢沒有好然後接著來謝謝蔡委員那你提的這個我們到時候來蔡委員沒關係沒關係好那你好那蔡委員你先回座我也回答完你"},{"start":22011.971,"end":22034.887,"text":"蔡委員你可以先回座,我會回答完,我把它講清楚那我們會請大家提出素面報告那報告的時候呢報告的時候呢,如果各位委員有問題就可以,到時候他們在都可以詢問,好嗎?好,謝謝接著請鍾嘉斌委員沒有,我回答蔡委員很清楚了程序是這樣子對對對,好好,尊重你"},{"start":22037.773,"end":22047.164,"text":"對,我會這樣子做齁。到時候他們來,大家有問題大家可以討論喔。好。這個,中嘉賓委員。對啦,下一個禮拜就換你啦。"},{"start":22049.845,"end":22076.29,"text":"主席財務法關係重大但是因為財委會在審我們會外委員只能用詢問當然詢問就是對主席詢問那我是支持說主席你回答我你盡量講但是不要扣到我的時間我只有一分鐘很好謝謝那請問主席因為有的是關於議程案安排有的只有你能回答請問主席你知道金門的財政收支劃分是金門酒廠挹注給縣政府的收入多還是中央撥給地方政府的收入多"},{"start":22077.657,"end":22104.827,"text":"停 暫停時間 你要等著主席詢問阿你要同意回答嗎 你把時間講完齁我會同意回答你你要同意回答啦齁因為為什麼我渴望得到主席的答案呢因為大家都在說阿 這個陳委員因為他在金門金門的酒廠每年貢獻給金門縣政府的收益多於中央政府撥的那現在呢 主席知道我們屏東縣每年可以從中央得到多少挹注嗎時間暫停"},{"start":22108.166,"end":22108.186,"text":"等。"},{"start":22109.179,"end":22138.451,"text":"我繼續講那我為什麼要問這個問題呢因為大家都希望辦公廳會也希望說地方政府能夠派員參加我過去擔任過地方政府的副縣長我很清楚知道每次在談到財化法都是都跟非都在那邊吵不停地方政府的水平分配永遠大家都有意見那我再請教一下主席金門大學的預算是誰撥的金門高中的預算是誰撥的第三個問題我在那邊聽一下主席的回答"},{"start":22141.484,"end":22159.236,"text":"好 謝謝鍾嘉賓委員特別關注我們金門我跟各位委員報告金門縣的財政自主率是全國排名第三名僅次於台北、新竹是全國第三名我們的財政自主率大概之前佔6成以上那第二點您說屏東的那個那個我說酒廠的收益是佔多少"},{"start":22160.657,"end":22175.613,"text":"九場的收益佔金門縣的財政一年預算是120億我們金門縣一年捐贈金門縣政府是大概40億再加上我們所交的稅給中央的稅是30億所以金九公司佔金門財政60%的收益"},{"start":22178.135,"end":22199.351,"text":"所以我們的財政自主意義是相當高的謝謝謝謝關心第二個屏東縣的不好意思我沒有關心屏東縣這個可能是你們來回答第三個有關金門高中跟金門大學金門縣政府除了中央政府所撥的預算金門縣政府本身每一年還補助金門大學跟金門高中相關的學校營養午餐、交通費、圖書費再加上"},{"start":22205.896,"end":22225.908,"text":"大學文明還補助獎學金,還有3年10個億的預算,這是金門縣政府提供給國立學校地方補助中央的例子。好,謝謝。感謝關心。那你等一下可以繼續再問。我覺得是表達一個感受啦,表達一個感受啦。我發現以這個主席所在的金門縣政府財政太好了。"},{"start":22226.388,"end":22235.734,"text":"好到不需要中央政府啊!那因此可能主席比較不能了解到其他非督的地方的感受啊!好!那你下一次再來問!接著請陳廷飛委員喔!下一次第二輪可以再來關心我們!謝謝!感謝關心金門縣喔!陳廷飛委員!謝謝!陳廷飛!陳廷飛!陳廷飛不在喔!接著我們請賴世寶委員喔!賴世寶!"},{"start":22258.984,"end":22287.447,"text":"謝謝各位我們看到卓榮泰公開說8年來給地方政府多2000億什麼意思?一年就是250億我們的財化法一年要拨2000億下來啊所以卓榮泰的講法更凸顯財化法一定要修啊趕快修啊大家認為提出來最少2000億起跳我的版本3000億啊為什麼不審我向主席表達強烈抗議"},{"start":22288.663,"end":22309.627,"text":"主席人太好了一直被他們這樣欺負還要把自己當官員的還接受他們的巡打怎麼會這樣子欺負你們啊你們欺負他啊對不對欺負陳立正啊欺負陳立正啊你不要講話欸講話這個第二個好啦不要講話啦請尊重發言委員的發言好不好齁時間暫停他一直吵齁時間暫停好"},{"start":22318.765,"end":22323.529,"text":"主席加油啦這個為什麼本委員會的程序問題不先開始然後給會議詢問會議詢問是給其他的委員根本就弄錯了第三個趕快進入亂插你不要講話"},{"start":22350.185,"end":22372.264,"text":"不要讓人民瞧不起不要讓人民瞧不起趕快進入主條不要讓人民瞧不起趕快進入主條不要讓人民瞧不起趕快進入趕快進入主條不要讓人民瞧不起趕快進入主條不要讓人民瞧不起趕快進入主條怎麼會是這樣子嗎?"},{"start":22379.807,"end":22401.692,"text":"謝謝賴社保委員吼,我們會繼續進行接著請莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄、莊瑞雄、莊瑞雄、莊瑞雄不在接著請吳佩奕委員、吳佩奕在嗎?吳佩奕、吳佩奕、吳佩奕不在喔羅志強委員、羅志強、羅志強、羅志強不在林德福委員、林德福、林德福、林德福不在喔對不起、對不起林德福那麼早就來了"},{"start":22402.612,"end":22412.359,"text":"你欺負林德胡委員他是你們同黨的你還不給他講陳一貞你欺負林德胡林德胡早就來了"},{"start":22419.739,"end":22444.514,"text":"不好意思林委員那大家可以安靜讓林委員發言謝謝主席還有議會各位同仁我想賴總統在擔任台南市市長的時候他也曾經說過說人口持續往北往中部集中沒有達成中央政府當時所強調的為了城鄉平衡的目標"},{"start":22445.635,"end":22470.803,"text":"造成這個現象的主要原因啊主要成因是升格以後只做一半那升格後相關的配套法案包括財政劃分法就是收支劃分法公債法並沒有隨同來通過甚至還向時任行政院院長陳忠來喊話要拿出非過不可的決心現在卻還臉不認帳是忘記還是害怕"},{"start":22475.365,"end":22498.73,"text":"想起來了應該要想起來那我想國民黨阿包括其他政黨我想應該要為民來爭取權益在乎地方的發展主張推動財化法修法來強調資源應該合理的分配縮小城鄉的差距並提升地方政府的自主性其實這很公平客觀以上謝謝"},{"start":22500.995,"end":22524.137,"text":"謝謝林德福委員喔 謝謝接著我們請林月琴委員林月琴 林月琴 林月琴不在喔洪孟楷委員 洪孟楷 洪孟楷 洪孟楷不在邱毅英 邱毅英 邱毅英不在王育敏 王育敏 王育敏不在來 委員 輪到你啦一分鐘啊 謝謝你可以再登記第二輪啦"},{"start":22528.462,"end":22551.477,"text":"主席,歡迎詢問,你看,這不管是國民黨還是民進黨,每一個人一分鐘的時間都不夠,那怎麼辦啊?我們第二輪讓大家講更久一點,然後再第三輪好嗎?好,我們也希望就是說,你的第二輪時間可以給大家比較充分的時間來發揮就是說,是程序而已,又不是在問時值。"},{"start":22554.219,"end":22568.446,"text":"現實裡頭財劃法大家各自的一個看法所以我針對今天我們財劃法修正的一個審查案裡頭我還是一樣主張就是要審慎看待目前我們藍白提出的草案"},{"start":22569.046,"end":22593.206,"text":"所以我們不急著修正為什麼如果南白的草案是這麼好的話我們在現行的法規之下中央對於他們的財政對於中央對於地方的一個支持其實大家已經看到了相當充分那如果我們還要再縮小地方政府間的一個財政的差異我覺得我們應該從下面的幾個觀點來表達我的立場你看主席"},{"start":22598.15,"end":22622.752,"text":"我根本都還沒有講到我的前言我都沒有講完這個是會議詢問不是來發表演說的你對會議有什麼意見就是第二輪以後時間加長我們會加長謝謝這個我回答了還有什麼會議詢問 下一輪紀律我覺得我對於疑似程序就是在你不能講說你是從日本來你比較遠你就是可以這個樣子這跟距離沒有關係謝謝"},{"start":22629.153,"end":22644.034,"text":"下一輪可以講久一點,然後別人講的時候不要插嘴囉接著我們請邱政軍委員邱政軍、邱政軍、邱政軍不在陳金惠委員、陳金惠委員陳金惠委員到了"},{"start":22653.179,"end":22673.576,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝主席跟各位委員都討論得很辛苦所以本席今天只是來補充一段話從過去扁政府、馬政府再到蔡政府現在的執政長都希望地方可以有多一點的財源而且是法定保障的財源也呼籲要修財化法我舉例各位很多委員當時也都還在這個地方"},{"start":22674.216,"end":22701.477,"text":"蔡總統任內首位葛奎林全院長他就任後來立院備詢他不光是表態要修財化法還說他規劃了許多讓地方政府在財化法修法以後財源只增不減的方案而且能讓非直轄市再一步一步的拉起來另外林全院長還曾經分享他2002年回來台灣當陳水扁總統執政的財政部長時就有這樣子的感悟他講過很多句經典的名言"},{"start":22702.838,"end":22730.291,"text":"也相信許多委員當時都曾經聽過這些話也呼應他財化法如果不改國家是沒希望的這是邁向中央財政正軌的最初不加減法原因很簡單他有點出來說地方表面自治但財政權卻握在中央手上地方最大的動機是跟政府要錢政府也沒給地方開源節流的環境變成一種惡性循環根本達不到地方自治的境界時間到了好謝謝"},{"start":22731.951,"end":22741.676,"text":"謝謝陳金輝委員,接著我們請林思銘委員、林思銘、林思銘、林思銘不在、羅明才委員、羅明才、羅明才、劉永才不在、陳秀寶委員"},{"start":22752.302,"end":22768.4,"text":"謝謝主席在今天的這個整個從早上參與到現在我真的覺得很疑惑為什麼是一分鐘我節省我自己的時間首先本席這邊要表達其實國家的財政在中央與地方合理的劃分這應該是不分黨派共同應該努力的方向及目標"},{"start":22769.201,"end":22775.266,"text":"但是沒有經過充分的討論要用這樣子的方式我覺得我看到說這麼多的版本差距這麼大而且沒有共識竟然我們還要進入這個審查的程序這麼多國眾兩黨的版本沒有詳細的說明地方所需財源的規模也沒有地方政府提出合理以及建設的這個說明只用這樣子倉促的手法要來跟中央討錢沒有細緻討論地方政府應該負擔能負擔的項目"},{"start":22799.184,"end":22821.198,"text":"那就在這樣的情況之下要求中央政府要釋出財源將會使許多重大的建設規劃困難而且許多跨域的、跨縣市的公共工程、交通工程以及公共建設都是由中央政府統籌、規劃並主導如果因為釋出了財源需要扣減相關經費會使許多重大的建設停擺"},{"start":22824.176,"end":22830.503,"text":"謝謝陳秀白委員我回答您的詢問不是只有藍白立委提出修法你不是要揮詢又不要我回答"},{"start":22831.656,"end":22857.484,"text":"我們還有五立法委員、二院委員都有提出修法版本我們會議詢問結束我們接著進行程序發言程序發言我們按照早上登記的這個順序那個沒有 接著是等一下程序 因為本委會委員李坤正會有說我們程序還沒有跑一下 讓他跑一下然後還有第二輪是等一下請尊重本委會委員程序發言了"},{"start":22859.167,"end":22881.221,"text":"三分鐘,好,然後接著我們請吳秉瑞委員做程序發言吳委員,吳秉瑞,吳秉瑞,吳秉瑞不在李昆城委員沒有,接著還有下一輪早上就講了,不知道去問一下你的同志沒有,你先講啊"},{"start":22883.515,"end":22905.8,"text":"已經練完了,他都練過了,他可以再來登記來李坤城委員,你跟你們同志講一下三分鐘齁,本委員會的齁你幾分鐘啊那個螢幕要改一下,哈囉伊斯聯把那個螢幕改一下好嗎他現在正在改齁,請等一下沒有啊,等他改完我再講啊"},{"start":22911.681,"end":22912.902,"text":"等一下第二輪的會議詢問我希望能夠比照程序發言三分鐘好不好主席可以嗎"},{"start":22937.987,"end":22948.262,"text":"我會支持的你是主席啊 你知道怎麼投票就好了啊可以可以 還有第四輪、第五輪大家繼續可以越來越久"},{"start":22951.691,"end":22957.153,"text":"等下 這個算是會議詢問 我在程序發言中的會議詢問啊我是程序發言中的會議詢問啊 所以還是從3分鐘開始啊不會補你好不好"},{"start":22969.916,"end":22996.116,"text":"這早上我們在講就是說現在禮拜三各個縣市的這個財政局局長以上的人要來因為等一下你禮拜三可能就會進入開始進入主條討論的我們就要開始來問啊那各個縣市他拿到這麼多的這個統籌分配款之後要做什麼大家提出個計畫出來嘛你提不出一個計畫出來我就給你這個4千多億那到底各個縣市要做什麼"},{"start":22996.636,"end":23019.125,"text":"那我就要問阿,跟早上一樣阿,這新北市財政局局長說這個臺北拿了3%所謂的這一個精順的條款他說沒有關係,侯友宜是老大哥,這不是侯友宜說了算這是為了新北市的市民,我有超過400萬的新北市市民嘛所以今天如果按照國民黨的版本說有3%精順條款,臺北市已經這麼有錢了"},{"start":23025.207,"end":23048.353,"text":"這還要再固定給他們3%那新北市應該要更多啊 對不對第二個按照這個財政紀律法這個賴思寶委員剛剛有在這邊剛剛早上也有委員提到這個按照這個財政的紀律法第5條中政府各級的機關、立法委員所提的法律案大幅增加政府的稅出或是減少稅率"},{"start":23048.993,"end":23063.974,"text":"要先具體明確指出彌補資金的來源在哪裡?我們現在看不到啊!現在看不到就是說按照這個國民黨版本的這個財務法那你現在從中央挖走了這個4000多那請問一下少了這麼多錢請問一下"},{"start":23067.238,"end":23086.037,"text":"彌補資金的來源在哪裡?因為中共少了這麼多錢啊,國防也都受到影響啊那第7條來看,各級政府還有立法機關定定或修正法律、法規或自治法規的時候不得併定固定經費的額度或比例保障"},{"start":23086.698,"end":23109.274,"text":"可是按照目前國民黨的版本有啊就是說這個統籌分配款一般性的分配款要以這個今年的要以今年的這個版本為例那如果明年修過之後明年的這個版本後年後年那個版本要以2023年的為例那這就是訂定了一定的比例啊這個違反財政紀律法嘛還要說你要從這個撥了這個4000多億然後給這個地方你說要補我時間啊"},{"start":23115.356,"end":23136.395,"text":"那這也違反這個財政紀律法的第7條啊因為你不能訂定固定的經費的比例啊那現在這個法條財政紀律法我們自己是財政委員會欸我們自己是財政委員會然後呢你要修了這個財化法結果都違背了財政紀律法的第5條跟第7條請問一下這不是互相矛盾嗎"},{"start":23137.136,"end":23161.96,"text":"那所以呢我是認為啊如果你真的要做這個財務法的這個修改那請按照我們財政紀律法我們第五條、第七條都說得很清楚你如果說稅率減少了那問一下那你的財源的彌補在哪裡而且呢你也不能訂定一定比例的這一個固定的經費或是說比例的這個保障這個都違反了這個財政紀律法那所以我們禮拜三"},{"start":23165.482,"end":23183.996,"text":"如果真的要來討論的話,我們要先用這個財務法人在修的時候有沒有違反這個財政紀律法,先來做個討論謝謝李坤城委員那剛剛您說有關新北的希望您趕快提案然後各地有關這個程序問題我沒評論我是回答你你不是說你是程序委員中的會議我是說如果新北市財政局局長來我要問他們"},{"start":23190.02,"end":23214.901,"text":"為什麼說他割肉然後侯友宜也說沒關係只因為他是老大哥奧選總統他是老大哥我是為了我們新北市市民的400萬人來著想啊對、對、對那你有沒有提案有沒有你有什麼關係我不知道為什麼你只願意說不願意做來接著你剛剛說的我又回答你另外一個各地財政署現在有可行嘛那為什麼要按照你講的各地為什麼要按照你講的什麼叫做"},{"start":23215.781,"end":23242.536,"text":"各地財政局的局長要不要來呢不是我們可以強迫我們大家也要尊重地方自治所謂地方自治宣誓如果有的局長要來我們非常尊重縣市長要來更好但是如果有的財政委員財政局長不來那沒有辦法第三個第三個"},{"start":23244.406,"end":23262.557,"text":"你的程序,程序裡頭,來他說政府收財政紀律法的部分這個我們請財政部,財政部有聽到委員的說法請你尊重我,我當主席講得不好,我也聽你講話啦,請你尊重我我跟你們很客氣喔"},{"start":23263.918,"end":23279.967,"text":"我比你們還客氣喔!現在是我要回答你的問題!請你尊重我!我是主席喔!請你尊重我!我也請你講話嗎?我主席也要尊重我的發言啊!我只會說不會做!我只會說不會做!我只會說不會做!我只會說不會做!我只會說不會做!我只會說不會做!我尊重地方自治!"},{"start":23290.493,"end":23305.38,"text":"各地的財政局長要不要來請尊重各地的局長我們沒有辦法強制然後呢政府當主席沒有錢講話你就閉嘴因為你沒有發言地位主席還沒有錢講話請遵守秩序"},{"start":23307.081,"end":23317.027,"text":"請大家回座好嗎?尊守秩序好嗎?主席沒有錢你講話不要破壞會長秩序不要破壞會長秩序請紅三案委員回座好嗎?請大家回座回座來喔接著"},{"start":23332.706,"end":23355.893,"text":"接著有關這個李昆城委員說的齁這個有關政府財政紀律法收入減少的問題齁這個就是中央如果減少地方增加就是把錢從上口袋放到下口袋的問題齁好 謝謝李昆城委員喔下一位喔賴慧媛委員喔"},{"start":23357.782,"end":23359.086,"text":"接著請那一位委員"},{"start":23360.987,"end":23365.09,"text":"主席,主席,主席,主席,主席,主席,主席,主席"},{"start":23391.727,"end":23416.222,"text":"你這邊可以啊?五立法委員啊?五立法委員請發言啊?立法院他不發言啊?他不發言?立法院?不用不用,你請他下去啊?立法院?這邊也可以啦?這邊也可以發?請發言?可以?他不講啊?你要講嗎?"},{"start":23417.711,"end":23435.344,"text":"內委上去。內委員你要發言嗎?你要發言嗎?那請發言啊。你要這邊還是這邊?你就要發言啊?可以可以。今天既然是程序而已,哪邊都可以發言。好。你要去那邊也可以。內委員要不要發言?要發言就過去發言啊。"},{"start":23442.993,"end":23466.651,"text":"這個各地的財政局要來我沒有辦法決定你不提案是你的事情他要不要?不是啦,賴委員要不要發言啊?我再唸三次,賴委員如果你不發言我們就下一位囉賴委員你上去請他上去啊上去就有聲音啊請他上去你先上去啊賴委員委員賴委員委員發不發言?"},{"start":23473.281,"end":23492.571,"text":"現在如果三次他不發言我們就下一位了賴慧元委員賴慧元要發言請上去賴慧元第二次賴慧元委員第三次不發言好下一位武力華委員第一次五位委員你可以再登記還有第三輪"},{"start":23494.304,"end":23516.01,"text":"五立法委員發發言他不下來你們黨團決定怎麼辦你不下來已經影響了賴委員的權利喔你會不會下去五立法委員發發言他可以再登記沒關係我再讓他登記好嗎請他回座呢他不回座我有辦法五立法委員發發言你要不要發言他不發言你不上去發言喔"},{"start":23524.966,"end":23552.755,"text":"你不發言嗎?你要不要下來?你要不要下來?你已經沒有發言地位,已經別人發言了,輪到別人了。你們黨團處不處理?你就不要亂評論嘛,今天就不會造成結果嘛。你主席沒有處理好,結果造成...吳立法委員發不發言?那你上去好嗎?你上去。你上去講。你要不要上去?你不講我們就下一位囉。好,吳立法委員那不然就下一位囉。"},{"start":23555.776,"end":23580.031,"text":"李昆澤委員請你下來講好嗎?請你不要把私人的恩怨一直帶過來請你下來講現在程序輪到武力法委員武力法委員不發言的話我們就下一位囉R1案3次武力法委員武力法委員武力法委員不上去好下一位李燕秀委員"},{"start":23581.707,"end":23585.816,"text":"李燕秀委員在嗎?李燕秀不在王世堅委員"},{"start":23587.541,"end":23611.89,"text":"王思堅委員,王思堅在哪裡?王思堅不在齁來,賴世保委員,換賴世保委員,賴世保委員換賴世保委員,前面的人都跳三次不上去了要再登記沒關係,要可以繼續登記來,想發言剛剛跳過的可以再繼續登記齁來,賴委員你在那邊發言,可以到那邊齁,可以可以都可以"},{"start":23614.38,"end":23641.866,"text":"可以登記!可以繼續登記!可以繼續登記!不要霸佔主席發言台!有嗎?好!各位先進!不要吵啦!大家都知道民眾黨團的用意大家都很清楚嘛!就是癱瘓財務委會、杯葛財劃華、時髦造之心、路人皆知啊!"},{"start":23642.779,"end":23664.9,"text":"大大小小都知道嘛!不必借題花花啦!立法院這裡不是你嗆我,我嗆你,還要叫人家道歉,是要道什麼歉啊?對不對?嗆來嗆去啊!你不是有意義跟他們嗆陳立正?陳立正叫你道歉,有文沒文啊!大家都知道嘛!我沒有了解,還道什麼歉?對不對?要嗆來嗆去啊!"},{"start":23672.865,"end":23683.752,"text":"我再講話你尊重我們好不好!你尊重我們啦!好啦!好啦!好啦!好啦!整個主席啊!"},{"start":23685.458,"end":23694.146,"text":"我用主...用委員們的要求啦齁!陳主席盡量少給他們評論啦!這個我同意啦齁!這個我同意啦齁!所以...主席...主席會約束啦齁!對!為什麼說..."},{"start":23705.557,"end":23727.376,"text":"這個主席被你們欺誤啊因為我們財委會是程序問題為什麼我們不先開始然後由那個貴本委會的一個會議詢問開始這個就是主席偏心啊主席被你們欺誤啊簡單就是這樣啊再來我們看啊"},{"start":23728.618,"end":23749.545,"text":"主席已經排了公平會,我們也開了兩場公平會財政局長都來過,不是沒有來過地方首長有的也來啦地方的意見都有,然後財政部長你去問他找地方政府開了幾次會所以老實講就很簡單,就是因為卓榮泰下令"},{"start":23750.99,"end":23770.934,"text":"不要這個財劃法要杯葛財劃法要實質的把中華民國的憲政體制變成一個道道地地的皇帝制那就是中央集權又集錢我再強調一遍卓榮泰說了國會說八年來給了2000億一年只給250億我的版本一年就是要丟出來3000億啦"},{"start":23780.269,"end":23782.092,"text":"現在國民黨黨的版本也就3200億啊民眾黨也是3200億啊所以更加的凸顯這個草案法非修不可"},{"start":23789.813,"end":23817.451,"text":"至於有人在講說哎呀什麼條款什麼條款省了又再來組條現在講就是主席宅心仁厚變成讓各位啊予取予求一直配合你們來拖一直拖一直拖趕快進入組條趕快進入組條這個否則台灣人民會笑我們的立法院特別財政委員會說這個財政委員會是無農的"},{"start":23823.285,"end":23830.539,"text":"謝謝賴司法委員我們現在都還在進行程序還沒有進入主條大家稍安勿躁接著我們請王洪威委員"},{"start":23832.028,"end":23852.686,"text":"好 謝謝主席主席非常辛苦從今天早上到現在大家看得非常清楚民進黨黨團今天出動了非常多位的立委來關心財劃法事實上早上我就跟大家報告財劃法在我們財委會已經歷次了兩次的"},{"start":23853.527,"end":23859.552,"text":"公聽會而且大家一直所引述的地方的意見事實上在6月5號的時候我們幾乎本委的委員都不發言我們把所有的時間留給地方的財主單位"},{"start":23870.041,"end":23885.391,"text":"那麼你們可以到網路上去看所有的地方的財組單位都非常支持要修正財劃法所以我想我們尤其是區域的立委以我們現在大家所討論的版本可能每一個它的大餅畫的方式不一樣"},{"start":23892.876,"end":23909.42,"text":"但是幾乎都是要反映地方的財政自主的比例應該要提高那麼其實包含在高雄跟在台南市那天發言也是如此甚至高雄市市長陳其邁之前還鄭重拜託過海院長"},{"start":23914.901,"end":23917.424,"text":"希望韓院長能夠推動在立法院財劃法能夠修正所以我們在這一次的修正裡面其實討論的程序是相當完備的我剛才講"},{"start":23930.198,"end":23938.948,"text":"開了兩次的公聽會我當然非常遺憾在座很多的委員在之前不聞不問從來沒有關心過但是今天或許在民進黨團的"},{"start":23944.974,"end":23966.92,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":23967.06,"end":23987.787,"text":"你不要回答我的問題。然後呢,隔兩秒鐘之後,主席你回答我的問題。我覺得對主席來講啊,到底回不回答都是一個很難的一個抉擇。那麼我希望的是,我希望的是,我們今天針對...你看來了吧?來了吧?當我在...當...李昆城,你在程序發言的時候,我有插你的嘴嗎?"},{"start":23996.83,"end":23998.492,"text":"我又插你的嘴嗎?你看,沒有風度!所以,我在這邊跟你講,在今天,我們民眾黨黨團不管是區議委員"},{"start":24012.603,"end":24016.564,"text":"或者根本不是本委委員或者過去也沒有關心過但是大家都給你們充分的時間發言我們也充分的尊重所以也請大家能夠尊重主席能夠尊重議事規則不要在那邊只是想要用拖延戰術這個不是真正反映地方政府的民意我再講一次6月5號"},{"start":24042.552,"end":24068.769,"text":"的宮廷會各縣市政府意見在網路上清清楚楚。非常地清楚。好不好?謝謝王後輝與。好,謝謝請林德福委員,因為剛剛李坤貞委員插嘴,所以大家維持秩序,不要插嘴,讓每個人都可以講。你想別人也不插嘴。"},{"start":24076.363,"end":24095.058,"text":"拜託 已經換人了齁要再插嘴了齁 要講來登記齁要講人來登記齁謝謝主席 我想各位同仁 不關草野啦其實齁 我們財務法已經25年都沒有修了"},{"start":24096.018,"end":24116.815,"text":"那尤其過去民進黨在選舉期間也多次做過承諾要改革然而在執政後選擇無視這項關乎地方財政和發展的重大法案其實這個沒有草野之分那2012年當時民進黨的主席蘇貞昌也召集民進黨各縣市的首長"},{"start":24118.757,"end":24121.319,"text":"呼籲將財劃法列為優先審查的法案,強調中央與地方應該平等協商、擴大財源、縮小城鄉的差距。像這些誠心呼籲,如今卻消失殆盡。"},{"start":24137.611,"end":24156.483,"text":"然而卓院長競爭現行的財劃法就是最好的版本這種背離改革承諾的自打臉的行為徹底來踐踏了選民的信任,證明民進黨只顧權利跟利益"},{"start":24159.265,"end":24178.888,"text":"民進黨執政8年無視地方財政的困境只鞏固中央財政的控制導致資源分配失衡損害全國人民的利益卻始終不推動財化法的修訂完全背離了當初的這種承諾"},{"start":24180.129,"end":24206.694,"text":"那其實國民黨堅持推動財化法的修法主張制度化財化法的規定依據這個需求合理分配來提升各地方這個政府的財政自主性解決區域發展的不平均的這些問題那呼籲賴總統跟民進黨要拿出誠信正視人民的需求別再讓"},{"start":24207.774,"end":24213.922,"text":"那變成雙重標準,成為一個常態啊因為齁,財劃法自1999年到現在已經25年沒有修訂,也影響地方發展重大"},{"start":24221.448,"end":24243.707,"text":"而這個發展的重大真的是影響很大重點是慈霞市由北高變成六都已經有10多年了那許多規範早已不符合實務那未歡欣而賴總統先前也多次強調財化法一定要修正但是擔任行政院長到副總統後卻望光光"},{"start":24245.209,"end":24264.93,"text":"那民進黨一卡再卡就是不給修法那其實這次的主張是為了就是能夠讓地方政府爭取能夠更公平帶給我們各縣市的居民有更多生活上便利跟他的福利反倒是目前民進黨"},{"start":24266.966,"end":24274.191,"text":"做一套、說一套讓人看了很傻眼我希望說大家針對問題、探討問題怎麼去解決問題以上謝謝主席"},{"start":24296.291,"end":24320.985,"text":"各位同仁大家好早上大家一直在爭論的是程序上的問題為什麼停留在程序的問題道理非常的簡單在之前所討論過的公聽會也好或者是之前的大體討論也好大家都有一個最起碼的共識也就是說今天討論財法法不是單純一個法案的問題"},{"start":24321.986,"end":24337.562,"text":"他牽扯到了地制法、地方制度法、牽扯到了公債法、牽扯到地方稅法通則相關的地方財政諸多的問題都應該要拿出來討論這也是兩個禮拜之前陳育貞召委所下的一個結論"},{"start":24338.743,"end":24361.615,"text":"但是就在兩個禮拜之前的討論完之後呢他說還可以暢所欲言的情況底下卻接到朱立倫主席說要趕快將這個法案送出委員會的政治命令何以如此財政委員會已經接受國民黨黨主席的指揮這一點我們完全無法接受這是第一第二剛剛在談說公聽會兩次夠不夠我跟大家講絕對不夠"},{"start":24365.777,"end":24367.098,"text":"等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人"},{"start":24383.907,"end":24401.059,"text":"財政收支劃分法這一部法令它修法的正當性而是呢它修法的這個程序跟內容當中要有更多的討論兩次的公聽會都是什麼都只有財政收支劃分法的單一法令的觀點"},{"start":24402.66,"end":24430.016,"text":"從來沒有從地方制度法的角度來做切入這在兩次的公聽會當中本席都有慎重的發言本席都要求財政委員會要持續開而本委員會的召委也同意要再開結果也沒有開就馬上進入討論等了大體討論說要繼續討論也沒有就馬上要進入竹條這顯然是操之過急我可以真的斷論的說負責任的講"},{"start":24432.157,"end":24438.383,"text":"國民黨的財政委員會是史上最爛的版本啊!國民黨的財政委員會是史上最違法亂七的版本!為什麼?因為國民黨的版本當中居然把中央的錢拿掉5747億後來隔沒多久又打了誤則說可以變3208億可是如果對照明年的預算規模"},{"start":24455.84,"end":24461.907,"text":"國民黨所謂的這個73筆變成64筆會變成6612億各位你們試想整個中央政府總預算也不過是3兆1325億而已這3兆1225億當中有其中一兆要拿給地方政府"},{"start":24476.181,"end":24483.463,"text":"其中1.8兆是屬於中央的法定支出。我問你嘛,剩下的6千多億你要怎麼來?錢根本不夠。好,可以舉債嗎?可以。舉債多少?15%夠不夠?當然也不夠。所以呢,根本是凱中央的錢,請地方的課,結果還要叫中央去舉債。這何來的財政紀律啊?"},{"start":24501.807,"end":24530.163,"text":"完全沒有財政紀律的財政收支劃分法就是國民黨最大的版本啦好 謝謝郭國文委員這個我想財政部有關地方稅法通則財政紀律法公債法還有這個內政部我們上次委員會提過很多次地方製度法趕快送過來修正我們這個財政稅法修訂在前面你們要趕快跟上委員會的委員會都因應其判各位官員都要注意"},{"start":24530.743,"end":24556.145,"text":"已經講很多次了,你們動作要快一點喔好,各國委員委員,我們第一輪的程序委員、程序發言發言完畢有登記第二輪的齁?好,你要登記第二輪的可以過來登記我們本委員會齁?好,我們第二輪的第二輪我們現在開始先請,我是吳立華嗎?李坤誠,交換是不是?OK,好那第二輪程序委員也是三分鐘,請李坤誠委員齁?謝謝"},{"start":24567.708,"end":24568.989,"text":"議委員會是本委員會的齁主席我在早上已經跟你談過了所以這個委員的發言你不要去做評論"},{"start":24579.994,"end":24601.96,"text":"那我剛剛在發言之後,那你竟然說你要修,你要修《財政收支劃分法》,你要提案啊,不能只說不做啊。什麼叫做只說不做?你這樣子在霸凌我嗎?你這樣子在霸凌我嗎?不用,你不用回答。你這樣子在霸凌我嗎?你沒有資格去評論其他的委員,說你這是只說不做。同樣的啊,那我可以這樣子評斷你嗎?"},{"start":24603.34,"end":24623.948,"text":"你金門的陳玉正的委員只說不做!只說不做!只說不做!可以這樣評論你嗎?我不會這樣子評論你!因為我覺得彼此委員要互相的尊重所以請主席在我們講完話之後不要再做任何的評論"},{"start":24625.248,"end":24654.191,"text":"那今天也都要提到說這個財化法那財化法齁 如果按照國民黨的版本來看國民黨的版本這個修完這個財化法之後的自有財源啊就六度來講只有台北市修法之後自有財源佔稅數的比率百分之一百零八百分之一百零八 超過了修法之後的自有財源就是自籌的加上中央的補助的"},{"start":24655.012,"end":24678.721,"text":"六都裡面只有台北市是108%所以我說啦我們新北的97%那為什麼我們新北的人口數比台北這麼多那就是因為台北有一個3%的精選條款在裡面讓台北的這個如果按照國民黨版本修完之後他們的自有財源是108%超過了破百了"},{"start":24683.868,"end":24703.479,"text":"那請問一下臺北市多出來這些錢要做什麼?蔣萬有想到了嗎?蔣萬有想到要做什麼嗎?我相信他蔣萬是沒有啦蔣萬基本上是一個不做不錯的人他只要不做事帥帥的臉龐就可以去吸引選票了所以基本上你說你要給"},{"start":24705.055,"end":24727.62,"text":"給台北市給了這麼多錢那請問一下台北市要做什麼我相信台北市沒有想到但是我們新北咧那新北為什麼我們的分配的我們的自有的財源的比例才97%所以這問題是很多啊我只舉這個修法之後自有財源的比例那更不用說我們中央政府的這一個法定的義務支出"},{"start":24728.3,"end":24748.875,"text":"有一兆八千億你這一兆八千億是沒有辦法去刪減的因為有很多的各機關的人事費、社會保險支出還有對公立學校的補助等等但是這個法定你不能去削減它那在哪些計畫會受到影響有一些機關的專項計畫就會受到影響那我講最基本的國防的經費國防經費就會受到影響"},{"start":24755.76,"end":24777.946,"text":"國防基本受到影響的高達2900多億那更不用說還有少子女化的政策還有我們有關於治安的維護等等還有這個中央擴大租金補貼、興辦社宅等等這些都是年輕人需要的但是因為你這樣子修了之後必須迫使中央在這些專案的計劃裡面迫使他要計劃"},{"start":24779.426,"end":24801.396,"text":"他的經費必須要縮減。那請問一下,國防經費被縮減之後,請問是爽到誰?爽到誰?爽到中國啊!就爽到中國嘛!啊所以他們現在就看啊,現在就看說台灣的這個台灣財務法到底要怎麼修?而且你們很矛盾的是說,明年度的中央...這個李昆仲偉已經超過了那個,要第三輪嗎?"},{"start":24803.737,"end":24811.46,"text":"謝謝委員已經超過三分鐘五分鐘六分鐘了接著請吳立華委員吳立華委員謝謝謝謝主席我序名在先財劃法我有提案版本"},{"start":24833.123,"end":24853.526,"text":"第三條的條文修正那為什麼我要特別講這一段因為我質詢這一題啊將近四年始終得到的回應就是告訴我說要連同地制法、公債法一併的來修才能夠處理"},{"start":24855.123,"end":24874.134,"text":"所以我也是很希望啊,地制法還有公債法甚至是未來我們可能還會談到並修財政紀律法等等很多的作用法所以我在這邊要特別的說明那接下來我有一個小小的請求"},{"start":24875.094,"end":24890.082,"text":"我説至少在財劃法邀請各縣市的時候應該把我們這六都的園區要找過來啊因為我們要對抗的是縣市政府啊"},{"start":24890.982,"end":24894.525,"text":"那你找縣市政府來講他當然不會為這些園區講話啊所以我也還在等啊沒有啊所以我要再講一次2010年修財化法、地治法的時候把這些合併的園鄉讓他們失去了公法人地位"},{"start":24911.457,"end":24940.06,"text":"但是我們修法的疏漏在2014年的時候竟然恢復了公法人地位卻沒有恢復他們獨立的財政收支系統這是很嚴重的錯誤所以我一定要講要支持那另外我要再講很多地方縣市我有去問我想每個地方政府他們的財主單位也不是傻瓜"},{"start":24941.121,"end":24955.075,"text":"他們很多人告訴我說,算一算,划不來,討不到便宜,因為多年前我們在處理財劃法的時候,就是希望中央地方通力合作。"},{"start":24956.195,"end":24982.844,"text":"我們也看到這8年來長短期的負債可以說逐年的下降而我們的地方補助款一般性的補助款或者是各部會的這些計劃性補助款是逐年的上升那很多人其實是非常的仰賴中央的一個補助而不是很擔心說未來左支右促"},{"start":24983.924,"end":25008.333,"text":"窮於應付我想這個是很多人的疑慮所以未來我們是不是我舉一個簡單的例子像我們原住民現在的文建站9年前一年不到1億現在是一年13億他們就問如果這個財劃法以後不知道變成什麼樣中央會不會沒錢來做這些了"},{"start":25009.437,"end":25026.566,"text":"又或者像我們很多的法令我們都看得到啊像是就業服務法22年前定了一個原住民人口2萬人以上要設立公立的就業服務中心各縣市政府22年來沒有一個願意啊最後還不是拜託勞動部"},{"start":25028.547,"end":25028.747,"text":"接著請代會員委員"},{"start":25058.978,"end":25061.621,"text":"委員資料提供一下,6組,所有的好,謝謝主席"},{"start":25079.089,"end":25092.935,"text":"好 謝謝主席在這裡要先給主席做一個請求也做一個拜託希望本主席程序還原後請你不要做評論可以嗎"},{"start":25096.786,"end":25097.306,"text":"國民黨委員批評民進黨政府"},{"start":25120.521,"end":25125.325,"text":"就是在整個程序的一個過程裡頭就是財劃法的一個過程裡頭我們一直在擋擋擋為什麼會擋呢當然就是說這個財劃法我們也當然大家都知道經過5次的一個修法他已經面臨到很大很大的一個問題大家知道這一個"},{"start":25142.017,"end":25159.275,"text":"法有沒有辦法修?當然是沒有辦法修。如果有辦法修的話為什麼要拖這麼長的一個時間?那這個也特別特別就是說針對今天財化法的修正審查案裡頭我還是主張我們應該要認真的去看待"},{"start":25159.875,"end":25177.569,"text":"就是我們要把每一個就是不管是國民黨還是民眾黨他們所提出來的一個草案我們建議不急於修正然後在現行的法規之下中央跟地方的一個財政的一個分配那我們必須要充分的一個討論這個討論的過程裡頭我們非常敬重賴斯堡委員賴斯堡委員他其實在那個"},{"start":25187.229,"end":25213.185,"text":"之前提出財政紀律法那在第五條他就有規定他說立法委員所提出的一個法例案大幅增加政府的一個稅出或是減少那個稅入都應該要先具體並且指明彌補資金的一個來源但是這一次在草案增加中央支出給地方多達4千多億我們並沒有就是怎麼說明說要彌補"},{"start":25214.225,"end":25241.273,"text":"然後反之如果說從中央的一個稅入來看的話我們也可以說減少了地方應該交給中央的錢也就是減少了稅入那這第7條那我們也規定立法機關制定或修正法案的時候不得增加固定的一個比例的保障但是這一次的修正直接調整了財劃法在中央與地方的一個分配地方稅的一個比例"},{"start":25242.473,"end":25260.139,"text":"並且增加了地方可以拿到的一個固定的比例他就是違反了這一條的一個規定並且還直接規定台北市可以拿到3%這就是所謂那個李昆城講的這個金孫3%條款我知道"},{"start":25260.899,"end":25288.165,"text":"我在這裡也再跟大家做充分的說明台北市的3%它被保留國民黨黨團提案的第16條之一規定普通普通統籌分配稅款的分配方式的第5條他說建議台北市身為所都可以保留可提供的分配款項3%給台北市但是現行的法規就是我們在憲法裡頭並沒有明定首都"},{"start":25289.446,"end":25295.993,"text":"這個首都就是我們在講的,那因此這一條根本就是不能實施。"},{"start":25316.82,"end":25318.561,"text":"再次謝謝主席在今天給我們不同黨派甚至不管是本委或者外委都有這個充分的說明的時間那我想要回應一下剛才有一些真的是非常匪夷所思而且事實上有誤導的一些觀點"},{"start":25336.812,"end":25354.239,"text":"比如說郭國文委員他算是我們財委會之聲的委員他說今天啊國民黨的版本是史上最爛的財化法版本那麼我們本來大家就是集思廣益、精益求精我們從上個會期我們就說請財政部能夠提出相對版本"},{"start":25360.982,"end":25365.946,"text":"或者說如果民進黨團覺得我們現在國民黨團或者國民黨籍的委員提的版本不好你們也可以提你們的相對版本啊也讓我們比碰一下嘛到底怎麼樣是比較好我們是史上最爛你們史上最佳但是問題就是冷壓沒有拿出任何版本"},{"start":25386.963,"end":25410.592,"text":"那第二點就是剛才也有好多位民進黨的委員都特別提到財政紀律法也提到財政紀律法當年是由賴思寶委員提案修正的所以我想某一個程度賴思寶委員也該算是財政紀律之父吧 對不對剛才大家都很肯定他當時是修財政紀律法以他對財政紀律法之賢熟"},{"start":25415.094,"end":25431.544,"text":"那他也支持我們現在此時此刻應該去檢討修正財劃法所以拿財政紀律法當作黨鍵牌事實上是不倫不類不倫不類另外我也覺得很奇怪按照"},{"start":25437.268,"end":25441.81,"text":"民進黨同仁所說的口中所說的史上最爛的版本這個版本每一個直轄市在修法之後都可以增加200億以上每一個直轄市都能夠增加200億以上所以我就很納悶了為什麼我們這些新北或者我們高雄的委員或者台南的委員要如此抗拒"},{"start":25465.66,"end":25484.505,"text":"如果你今天所處的縣市以我台北市來講我可以增加200億以上我當然歡迎啊我當然舉雙手歡迎啊這會使得我們的地方財政更加健全我們的地方財政的自主率更加的一個健康"},{"start":25485.666,"end":25495.109,"text":"有何不可為什麼要拒這樣的一個修法於千里之外我真的覺得很奇怪如果你真的了解如果你有認真的去看這個版本每一個直轄市增加200億元以上"},{"start":25502.651,"end":25509.475,"text":"但是大家講說 哎呀 直轄市一位怎麼辦呢?也跟大家報告 統籌分配款項的67%也按人口數的比例去分配給22個縣市所以 這次國民黨團所提出來的修法版本 非常重要的一個原則"},{"start":25523.422,"end":25547.713,"text":"就是每一個縣市不分藍綠不分黨派執政的縣市所有的統籌款通通可以增加所有財政自主的比例通通可以增加而縣市能夠自主而不是養中央鼻息的這些資源通通可以增加"},{"start":25548.593,"end":25574.116,"text":"我想請問一下我們坐在這邊我們不是有很多都是各縣市的選民選出來的嗎?對不對?所以在這樣的狀況如果請我們所有民進黨的委員你們有意見的話好好用功念一下這個版本你們就知道所有縣市的分配款通通可以增加以上"},{"start":25575.097,"end":25593.151,"text":"好 謝謝王洪威委員的確這個財政紀律法那一條是說減少或增加但是中央跟地方的這個減少增加都是同樣一個政府只是錢從上一口袋拿到下一口袋並沒有真正減少或增加好 接著我們請林德福委員 謝謝"},{"start":25606.254,"end":25626.175,"text":"謝謝主席我想國民黨主張修正制的財劃法以解決地方財政的困境透過合理的分配財源來提升地方的自主性那民進黨當然只顧了政治的利益"},{"start":25627.176,"end":25642.526,"text":"沒有無視地方的發展曾在選舉期間高呼修法上台後不但是沒有作為甚至於還說現在的現行的法案已經是最好的版本"},{"start":25643.626,"end":25665.942,"text":"換句話說,維持現在,它不但可以漲權,又可以漲錢,所以說是最好的版本。針對地方財政的困境,我想國民黨提出解決的垂直這個方面,現行財劃法中,中央與地方的稅收比例差不多7比3,"},{"start":25667.464,"end":25689.183,"text":"我們應該要調高地方的所得稅、營業稅以及貨物稅等方式將中央跟地方的稅收比調整6比4其實在整個水平方面我們為了平衡城鄉的發展"},{"start":25690.344,"end":25710.121,"text":"國民黨將會根據重農業、觀光、偏鄉、離島以及工業產值高的原則來增加資源分配的比例根據各縣市已經同意的標準"},{"start":25710.842,"end":25726.655,"text":"如企業營業額、財產稅、輝稅的收入以及整個土地的面積、人口數和農業以及工業的就業人口等等來進行"},{"start":25730.27,"end":25745.601,"text":"公平的資源的一個分配我認為這是很重要那為了我們要平衡整個城鄉的發展特別來加重整個離島地區的土地和人口的比例並以平均"},{"start":25746.522,"end":25761.481,"text":"的收入低的這些農業縣市作為優先分配的對象以確保各地財源指針不減而且補助款不低於修法前的預算"},{"start":25762.242,"end":25788.391,"text":"我認為這個是很重要的一環因為為什麼要修財劃法當然很多地方各縣市他們確實這25年來他們都在較窮那你中央當然這些比較窮的縣市應該多給予他們有一些分配的比例讓他們能夠自主來發展地方以上謝謝"},{"start":25790.394,"end":25805.44,"text":"非常謝謝林德福委員謝謝接著我們請郭國文委員郭國文、郭國文、郭國文、郭國文不在我們第二輪的程序委員發言程序發言就結束了那有沒有要再登記第三輪的程序發言"},{"start":25807.281,"end":25831.879,"text":"沒有,等一下還有會議詢問,等一下,有嗎?沒有齁?我已經練過了,沒有,你可以做會議詢問齁?接著我們就進行第二輪的會議詢問齁?也是3分鐘,已經練過3次的尊重,不過在登記可以發言,沒有嗎?來?對,第三輪,沒有,會議詢問,會議詢問,來?現在就第二輪的會議詢問,就是外委員會可以開始來發言喔?來,哪一位先?"},{"start":25835.012,"end":25835.112,"text":"第二輪會議詢問"},{"start":25862.913,"end":25890.412,"text":"現在主席主席我想剛剛在上一次的這個程序發言當中本席就慎重的提醒我的問題是說為何我們在委員會在慎重的每一次的討論當中本席可以說是無語不語不論是公聽會、委員會任何討論到財政委員會的過程當我們都一再的強調與呼籲財政收支劃分法固然重要"},{"start":25891.332,"end":25913.42,"text":"但是呢你若提出一個癱瘓中央而且呢讓整個地方跟財政亂了套的一個法案其實是非常不足取的所以為什麼我們一直在強調它不是一個單純的財政收支劃分法的內容而已而是牽扯到事權以及呢這個財權"},{"start":25915.541,"end":25943.315,"text":"更何況事權跟財權之外還有一個認人的空間各位都知道在地方上有許許多多的緣兒編制以警察的人類來說雖有8萬之多但實際上編制卻只有6萬出頭而已為什麼會有如此的差距?原因在哪裡?也牽扯到中央跟地方相互偽責的結果而造成這樣的情勢為什麼?"},{"start":25944.716,"end":25958.54,"text":"因為大家都不想要承擔責任這也就是為什麼我們討論到財權的時候我們會強調事權那為什麼呢在去年的部分地方政府的這個稅計稅計甚於會高達642億為什麼"},{"start":25963.482,"end":25970.23,"text":"原因就是地方政府執行能力有問題執行能力有問題或許有時候不是能力的問題或許有時候是人力的問題總而言之就是財務的負擔越來越少"},{"start":25978.379,"end":26004.544,"text":"至於財政的能力相對提高財政的能力提高因此有所謂的財政剩餘的結果而明明已經這幾年的趨勢連續5年都有財政剩餘的情況底下也沒有差短的情況底下為何要此時此刻急於修改這個財政收支劃分法門本席呀完全沒有辦法理解背後的理性的原因啦我這邊慎重呼籲國民黨"},{"start":26006.764,"end":26024.254,"text":"一定要懸崖勒馬不要再註下歷史的大錯在11月25號當中大法官的會議解釋職權行司法幾乎有高達25項的違憲就告訴你們不要以多數想要轉化成是真理"},{"start":26025.094,"end":26046.529,"text":"多數未必是真理的化身多數可能是悲劇的開始我要再跟陳委員講你現在高居這個召委的位置不代表你有權力有正當性可以霸凌每個委員的評論我待會講完之後請你不要再評論本席的言論我實在非常無法接受國民黨的版本會讓整個國家體制亂了分寸謝謝"},{"start":26050.517,"end":26063.441,"text":"好 謝謝郭國榮委員 謝謝剛剛針對這個武立法委員所提出的這一個就是我們就財務法要修正要邀請下面的這個行政機關新北市的烏來區公所、桃園市的復興區公所"},{"start":26068.204,"end":26083.875,"text":"台中市的和平區公所、高雄市的茂林區公所、高雄市的桃園區公所、高雄市的納瑪夏區公所我們都發邀請,當然我們還是尊重他們,如果熟悉也看他們要不要來我們在邀請縣市的時候我們寫在裡頭邀請他們,然後據我所知這個"},{"start":26088.979,"end":26112.234,"text":"大法官釋憲從來沒有對針對上一次的立法院執權行使法說明說什麼程序有問題或是沒有討論沒有名譽我是在講我自己的發言沒有在評論任何人我只要說大法官會議這次的釋憲解釋從來沒有一句話說這個過程是違反民主從來沒有挑戰我們立法院的這個程序從來沒有過這個釋憲沒有來接著請王玉琳委員"},{"start":26119.299,"end":26137.112,"text":"好 謝謝主席 主席辛苦了從早上到現在 這個我們看到這個財化法一定要進入到主條但是看起來民進黨黨團是反對財化法的修正所以透過程序上這個杯葛其實已經第一輪第二輪大家不斷地發言"},{"start":26139.013,"end":26149.821,"text":"但是本期在這邊也希望說等一下如果大家連續發言是不是可以發言過的內容不用再重複一次畢竟官員的時間也很寶貴這些官員已經從早上做到現在聆聽各位委員的高見那已經很久了"},{"start":26155.805,"end":26163.486,"text":"我認為如果大家對於財化法有任何的意見進到實質的具體的修法內容大家好好的來論戰你認為哪邊不合理不應該這樣修然後把自己的意見充分的表達出來我想這個才是作為國會議員我們在國會問政裡面可以展現各自專業的一面那這樣子一個程序的杯葛我想適度就好"},{"start":26183.19,"end":26206.535,"text":"應該要進入到實質的討論首先關於這個《財化法》的修正事實上已經長達25年我們說法都要與時俱進一部法案如果已經長達25年沒有修正難道不應該回過頭來檢視這裡面中央跟地方的財政分配這個比例是不是有失衡的問題從今審的時候"},{"start":26210.376,"end":26215.139,"text":"當時88年是中央地方是60比40到現在113年最新的資料中央佔75地方佔25那這樣的一個情況不是已經開始傾斜嗎?是不是應該要適度的調整回來?"},{"start":26226.627,"end":26249.855,"text":"另外對於財政比較困窘的縣市像嘉義縣來講嘉義縣的財政非常的困難那難道在整個統籌分配稅款我們對於相對財政困難的縣市不應該在這一次的調整當中我們在非六都的縣市也應該要多爭取經費讓各縣市的首長"},{"start":26250.595,"end":26263.21,"text":"他們有足夠的財源可以去進行地方的建設嗎?所以這次的財化法的修正剛剛有委員提到說不應該但是你如果去問問22個縣市地方的首長"},{"start":26267.314,"end":26286.759,"text":"請問有哪一個首長認為是不應該?哪一個首長會跳出來反對?包括我們當今的賴清德總統過去在地方擔任首長的時候他也認為《財化法》有不公平之處應該要重新修正所以今天有關於《財化法》"},{"start":26288.341,"end":26301.062,"text":"這個134要進入主條的修正我在這邊呼籲我們是不是委員會大家的委員還有外委會的委員大家都可以秉持專業、公平、理性這樣的態度來思考這樣的一個修法方向以上謝謝"},{"start":26303.17,"end":26330.416,"text":"謝謝王毅民委員我們現在還在程序的過程還沒有進入逐條我們也當然希望趕快進入逐條討論而且上次立法院直線行事法大法官會議並沒有說像民進黨說什麼沒有討論不是民主大法官的解釋裡頭沒有針對這個過程做出任何的挑剔但是我們還是讓大家充分發言尊重各位委員的發言接著我們請沈博洋委員"},{"start":26341.55,"end":26368.562,"text":"好,那沈博洋第二次的會議詢問那這邊我覺得還是第一個因為我們還是在程序那這個會議詢問我還是要跟主席還是剛剛各位委員其實也提醒過了就是說呢我們不盡量評論這個詢問的部分但詢問如果是內容的部分應該沒什麼問題比如說像以前會議詢問我們有時候會說今天這個冷氣有點冷那可能主席就會才是議事人員要處理但是你不可能就開始講說"},{"start":26369.942,"end":26395.937,"text":"這個冷氣那麼冷,這個太冷的話,是不是為什麼不去提案?你為什麼自己不帶溫度計?等等之類的,那個就變成一種評論。所以呢,希望是能夠針對會議詢問的內容來說。那我回到我今天早上,因為早上只有一分鐘,還沒有辦法講完。但今天呢,我們非常重要的一件事情是在於說,這個修法的動機到底為何?如果修法的動機本來不正當的話,其實它就不應該進入到這一個主條。那理由很簡單,剛剛我們可以聽到很多國民黨的委員提到,"},{"start":26396.757,"end":26422.934,"text":"這個法律很久沒修了我要告訴大家我們憲法也很久沒修了所以我們是不是也要稍微修一下憲法其實一個法律要不要修正跟這個關係不大如果真的跟財政有關係的話那應該是中央跟地方財政之間的分界我們現在淨收入的比例中央跟地方是62比38如果支出的部分是64比36那就表示它基本上是橫平的狀態如果它是一個橫平的狀態"},{"start":26423.755,"end":26453.315,"text":"那為什麼現在要從中央挖一塊肉然後把它放下去而且現在還不知道這個肉的用途到底在哪裡而更重要的事情就是我們先不要講說每一個縣市的水平分配今天非常重要的一點是我們6月5號的那一次剛剛這一個網紅會員一直提到說6月5號已經邀請了很多這個各部會還有地方政府來問題是我上網看這個會議本身就是沒有結論啊它就是沒有共識啊"},{"start":26453.895,"end":26467.247,"text":"更不要講說中央被挖走的這一群人他沒有來發言我們今天可以看到如果按照目前的版本來看的話我們光是國防就要少掉2945億如果今天國防少掉2945億然後全部可以補給地方"},{"start":26473.732,"end":26503.068,"text":"那地方當然聽起來很開心啊我每個地方多100億每個地方多200億我當然很開心啊那你今天犧牲的是什麼2945億就是你等於要告訴民眾你在6月5號的時候就應該請國防部來說明說是不是IDF跟幻象2000現在都不用維護了今天所有的單兵戰傷救護的急救包採購也都不用了魚叉飛彈現在是不是也不用買了後備時的無線電的補充案是不是也不用做了新式的高校機能的軌跡噴煙裝置是不是也不要了"},{"start":26503.428,"end":26517.043,"text":"我剛剛唸的這一些所有我們現在軍事的投資跟作業維持加起來就已經還不到2900喔這些會全部都沒有那我們今天要很簡單我們就應該跟民眾說明也應該讓各部會來講嘛"},{"start":26519.386,"end":26536.979,"text":"你今天犧牲的金錢到底是什麼?這些東西都沒有了,那我們國安、我們的國防就不用再往下發展了那這些意見都沒有被採納,然後就把這樣的錢全部放到地方上面這樣的討論本身會是有問題的,所以我是建議要協商不要那麼快的就進入到主條,謝謝好,謝謝沈博洋委員,接著我們請張雅琳委員"},{"start":26553.534,"end":26576.641,"text":"謝謝主席喔我想就是說今天早上其實我有特別去強調說其實我們地方財政紀律不佳過去我們還有一些方法我們可以去扣減它的一些補助款但是一旦我們今天這樣子的法通過了我們中央家要用什麼樣子的方法來去約束我們地方政府呢"},{"start":26578.101,"end":26593.622,"text":"現在我們在這些地方政府浪費掉這些文子館跟博物館跟訓練場到底接下來我們要用什麼樣子的方式來去好好的讓他們可以更好好的去花錢而不是直接從中央拿了錢之後我們根本不知道他要做什麼"},{"start":26595.359,"end":26610.13,"text":"現在大家從中央挖錢挖了這這麼多錢這錢到底要從哪裡來從我自己的專業來看的話我們的少子女化對策就會少346億我們的育嬰留職、停薪加急補助就會少掉39億還有社安網134億"},{"start":26613.773,"end":26626.722,"text":"那在其中裡面還有包含了我們的中小學、教育、學錢、教育這些錢到底是要從教育部來挖嗎?還是要從衛福部來挖嗎?我想這個都非常需要有相關的部會來回應那同時呢"},{"start":26627.987,"end":26657.427,"text":"即使在6月5號的公聽會就是沒有共識沒有結論因為大家都在強調一件事情就是你不能只有拿錢不辦事事權的討論是需要非常非常清楚的所以再來另外一個部分是說我想大家其實並沒有說我們完全不可以討論而是說到底應該要怎麼樣的詳實的討論讓地方讓各個部會可以來表達意見來讓我們的每一個小孩每一個影響到我們納稅人的錢的這個部分都可以被"},{"start":26658.047,"end":26678.44,"text":"充分的得到支持再來最後一個部分我也想要去強調當我們今天地方都各自拿錢了之後呢我剛剛有講直轄市拿錢不好嗎但是我們也要去思考當我們今天錢全部集中在直轄縣市的時候那一般地方的建設要怎麼做呢"},{"start":26679.693,"end":26704.499,"text":"我們難道要就是說城市發展很好鄉村我們就不管了嗎這些鄉村的孩子現在苗栗縣財政不佳現在我們還可以透過中央的約束我們還可以去刪減他的補助款但是如果他以後財政不佳拿了我們的錢之後應該要給兒童的教育應該要給育兒家庭的補助他拿去做別的事情的時候我們到底該怎麼辦而這些小孩子的教育難道就要"},{"start":26705.279,"end":26707.862,"text":"等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人"},{"start":26726.623,"end":26742.776,"text":"還有兒少平台的營運或是我們一直在講我們要國際化我們要有台劇的內容升級這些都是會受到影響的部分所以我希望我們今天可以有再更多的討論相關的部會相關的縣市來做更多的討論因為這個影響非常的大謝謝"},{"start":26745.639,"end":26758.153,"text":"好,謝謝張雅琳委員的會議詢問,接著我們請陳金輝委員,我們現在開放第三輪的會議詢問登記請大家來登記第三輪,第二輪還有大概還有15位"},{"start":26761.023,"end":26769.348,"text":"好 謝謝主席也謝謝各位委員也感謝主席今天讓我們有充分的時間可以表達大家的意見但早上經過第一輪的會議詢問現在即將開始我第二輪會議詢問那接著講早上講到的"},{"start":26775.552,"end":26799.33,"text":"因為從以前的扁政府還有到蔡政府其實非常多的執政黨政府都曾經希望有多一點的法定的財源保障也呼籲一定要修財化法所以剛提到我們的財稅專家也是許多委員認同的林全院長他曾經講到說財化法如果不改國家是沒有希望的這是邁向中央財政正軌的最初步加減法"},{"start":26800.271,"end":26819.005,"text":"並且點出來說地方表面自治但財政權卻仍在握在中央的手上地方最大的動機是跟政府要錢政府也沒給地方開源節的環境變成一種惡性的循環根本達不到地方自治的境界這是從之前林全院長"},{"start":26819.865,"end":26839.508,"text":"國外留學回來之後呢曾經點出我們台灣很深層的問題所以以上從蔡政府到現在過了8年多的時間既然執政黨跟我們說國家的中央財政表現越來越良好那就代表中央有更多的本錢能開始讓地方政府來更茁壯了我也誠心的建議"},{"start":26840.149,"end":26862.18,"text":"不要光是把中央的錢會變少當成反對的理由因為中央的錢變少跟中央的錢不夠了這兩者還是有很大的區別的也有許許多多的委員談到說六都地方政府遭到的不公平這點我也認同畢竟現在的台灣是用還沒有六都時期的財政收支跟劃分的遊戲規則來適用當前的現況"},{"start":26865.362,"end":26883.779,"text":"如果法律沒有與時俱進的話那我們就會再走回頭路了現在地方的直轄市變多透過調高地方徵得的中央稅像是所得稅收、營業稅以及貨物稅等方式將中央與地方稅收比從7比3調整到6比4這點就是有需要的"},{"start":26884.139,"end":26902.964,"text":"而且地方政府做建設本來就沒有分藍綠所以我們希望可以廣納希望都可以benefit到所有藍綠的縣市希望財政部能夠讓地方政府好好的做事我想最後是一個結論正因為大家現在都還有不同的看法所以我也希望很多人看到"},{"start":26903.884,"end":26922.386,"text":"提到說賴總統擔任市長的時期所喊話中央的原話賴市長當初說人口持續往北中部集合沒有達成中央政府當時所強調的為了城鄉平衡的目標造成這個現象的主要成因是深隔只做了一半"},{"start":26922.907,"end":26946.67,"text":"深隔後相關的配套法案包括財政收支劃分法、公債法並沒有隨同的通過甚至還說要拿出非過不可的決心所以我們今天其實就是在反映賴總統時任賴市長當時所有的意見所以希望可以在前提上我們可能修個更好的方式希望來繼續討論下去那也感謝主席花了非常多的時間排審謝謝"},{"start":26949.835,"end":26954.222,"text":"謝謝陳金輝委員我們休息10分鐘讓官員可以伸展一下然後10分鐘後繼續謝謝"},{"start":27561.889,"end":27590.562,"text":"好 我們休息時間到了 我們繼續開會跟委會宣告我們剛剛開始了第三輪的會議詢問登記第二輪發言完畢完 我們也許再休息一下進行第三輪剛剛也早上就說過了我們今天會延長開會到晚上12點 早上就說過但是我們中間會讓大家休息吃晚餐不用擔心來 然後這個第三輪已經開放登記想要發言委員可以上來登記現在已經有登記為國公務委員了"},{"start":27591.863,"end":27594.577,"text":"好 接著陳靜雲發言完畢 我們請范瑩芬委員"},{"start":27607.557,"end":27634.366,"text":"謝謝召委首先還是要跟剛剛一樣要先抗議主席今天意識非常的不忠早上中午下午意識規則不斷的變動早上有人一次會議詢問說一分鐘可以講三分鐘可是我跟張雅琳委員不知道是不是因為我們的性別主席覺得沒有特別想要對我們友善一點我們一分鐘到的時候你就直接讓我消音了"},{"start":27635.527,"end":27649.427,"text":"可是後來男性委員上場的時候不知道為什麼就可以講2到3分鐘所以我想主席除了不斷的評論我們大家之外有嚴重的意識不忠的問題所以待會請主席不要再任意評論本席的發言"},{"start":27651.73,"end":27670.535,"text":"首先早上我講了就是為什麼不好好地讓大家審慎規劃的第一個原因現在繼續講第二個原因我想剛剛大家都已經講到就是依照國民黨的版本我們先不要講你們內部的委員差異很大以你國民黨團的版本中央稅入會少4080億中央只剩3600"},{"start":27676.417,"end":27678.379,"text":"等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人"},{"start":27695.814,"end":27715.63,"text":"到112年,就是去年其實地方已經剩餘648億了那中央財政情勢已經改變的情況下剛剛沈博洋委員等已經講到如果依照國民黨團的版本我們國防、社福等很多的部分都必須被迫刪減超過三分之一"},{"start":27717.972,"end":27728.107,"text":"那你說地方相信地方地方要錢可是我要講的是地方財政紀律非常的糟啊因為我們看到我上一次已經講到了"},{"start":27729.318,"end":27754.585,"text":"非常多的地方光是教育是法定的義務都沒有做好那教育的經費改去做別的部分那我想再講兩個議題地方財政就是紀律非常差還有一個原因是地方的監督常常被縣市首長用某些方式阻斷我以我們國民黨總召富坤集最熟悉的花蓮縣議會來講"},{"start":27756.986,"end":27779.459,"text":"花蓮縣議會質詢最有力的張美惠議員她在地方的建設建議款上居然被花蓮縣政府審查就是最後一名這是花蓮縣她對願意監督的議員是懲罰的方式新北市剛講到六都新北市的侯友毅也非常有名我們看到媒體已經不止一次報導"},{"start":27780.519,"end":27808.629,"text":"監督最有力的戴偉山他每年度的議員的地方建議款1000萬居然是年年掛鈴今年還是跟陳嵐宇兩位都掛鈴就是因為他監督很有力所以我要講的是地方的財政有嚴重紀律的問題加上監督不足在這樣的情況下我不知道就是你們又能夠讓財政歸地方可是市權又沒有增加那我覺得到目前為止"},{"start":27809.369,"end":27824.307,"text":"我們沒有看到一個合理的版本再加上這是預算會期我已經不想再譴責主席了這應該是國民黨團對我們主席交代的任務因為你主席你自己的版本陳玉珍的版本是328億跟你們黨團版本又差距甚大"},{"start":27827.791,"end":27842.758,"text":"所以我的會議詢問就是國民黨團為什麼不好好審預算需要在這個預算會期審這個嚴重沒有基本共識沒有一個理想版本的法案那請主席不要回應我的詢問我是質問國民黨團啦以上 謝謝"},{"start":27852.039,"end":27877.172,"text":"所以你不要我回答那我就不回答你的這個會議詢問但是我絕對沒有什麼會議不公正因為有時候志氣太亂就會這樣子如果志氣好我就大家知道我主持會會都讓大家唱首異言雖然三分鐘都讓大家盡量講沒關係因為而且我們還可以登記第三輪、第四輪、第五輪上一個我們討論到第三輪就沒有人登記了好請大家已經開放第三輪要記得來登記喔來接著請賴瑞榮委員"},{"start":27878.873,"end":27882.257,"text":"賴瑞榮、賴瑞榮、賴瑞榮不在接著請羅美玲委員好 謝謝主席"},{"start":27893.975,"end":27902.719,"text":"今天有委員說中央急錢又急權不顧地方政府的財政狀況地方政府像乞丐一樣因此要中央每年大幅釋出財源實際上是這樣其實從2015年到2023年地方自籌財源這樣最初比例每年都有呈現遞減而且地方政府長短期負債逐年都在下降"},{"start":27923.849,"end":27939.998,"text":"這表示中央對地方財源益處是逐年在增加的尤其明年更是來到創新高來到1兆151億比馬政府時代的5506億多出了一倍的補助那剛剛范瑩委員也說了中央透過"},{"start":27940.959,"end":27945.002,"text":"分配款、補助款、預助地方的財源整體地方財源已經由2012年的短處589億到2023年剩餘的648億那尤其近5年都是剩餘的這個狀況那當然各地方政府的這個狀況有很大的差異"},{"start":27958.092,"end":27968.039,"text":"重點就是過去8年來整體地方政府的財政狀況有很大的改善本席要再度的強調本席絕對支持大家就事論事針對25年來未修的財化法審慎的做溝通、研究、會商尤其是對於分配10個指標的權重我們必須都要取得共識之後進行更合乎現況跟未來發展的修法"},{"start":27987.813,"end":28016.334,"text":"那再來呢本期剛剛早上有提到目前委員會共提出22個這個草案的版本經過四算之後呢中央裁員釋出金額從328億元到7633億不等差異呢是非常大的舉個例子來講假設如果我們是按照國民黨團的這個版本的話修法後各級地方政府獲配裁員將由現在的4000多億呢暴增到"},{"start":28017.074,"end":28026.782,"text":"九千九百億那如果中央的財源大幅釋出到地方請問我們的勞保、勞健保還有勞農津貼誰要來負擔這個有沒有做討論那還有交通建設、教育經費、社福醫療還有針對未來氣候變遷我們可能面對的一些相關的"},{"start":28039.048,"end":28043.289,"text":"防洪治水救災重建預算這些錢要從哪裡來?還有中國軍事威脅不斷國軍出勤率增加維持戰備更是需要的經費來支應這些相關的預算將會受到非常大的壓縮這個問題不是應該要好好來做討論嗎?"},{"start":28061.314,"end":28065.98,"text":"其實現在最緊要的還是攸關這個3兆1250億的114年度總預算案。2025年的新增的預算到現在都還沒有著落,我們就趕著料來修這個財劃法,這不是本末倒置嗎?"},{"start":28079.818,"end":28090.793,"text":"謝謝羅明林委員接著我們請李昆成委員李昆成李昆成李昆成不在哦鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌不在郭育晴委員"},{"start":28106.674,"end":28130.997,"text":"謝謝主席我再次強調其實根據我們的財政收支劃分法的一個精神其實就在各級政府的財政收支的關係要被明確的劃分然後才能夠均衡區域的一個發展那其實上一次其實我已經在這個地方講過了就每一個地方他們的權重跟他們所重視的指標其實是不一樣的扣除掉20幾個"},{"start":28139.903,"end":28161.357,"text":"五十二個指標當中我們又找到共識的也只有五個指標相對的來講就是90%是沒有共識在沒有共識的情況之下到底我們的財劃法到底急著修是在修什麼意思吼那另外我剛剛有特別提到其實地方要提升自己的財政的能力的方法不是只有從中央挖錢欸"},{"start":28162.738,"end":28187.667,"text":"不是只有把分配的金額拉高就好了耶這也還包含所謂的地方制度法、公債法還有地方稅法的通則不是只修財劃法就可以解決所有的問題那中央地方其實透過不同的一個指標要確保資源公平、分配、良好的財政紀律不是只要求我要權力我都沒有義務"},{"start":28188.907,"end":28213.203,"text":"這個是不對的喔那我想呢其實剛剛有特別很多的委員也都有提到如果照藍白線型的一個版本要應修財劃法其實就會造成所謂的強者橫強比方說台北市多了3%也就是他會多了200多億那請問服務員更廣大人口數更多的新北市呢好"},{"start":28214.244,"end":28229.496,"text":"那再講到114年度的中央總預算還不包括已經編列補助地方的5,412億跟義務要支出的1兆8,144億原本中央還可以用的財源是7,769億但藍白搶走了4,080億影響到了什麼?托育政策"},{"start":28235.721,"end":28254.416,"text":"國家跟你一起養0到6歲國家跟你一起養長照3.0租金的補助、國防的預算、地方所謂的計劃性的補助還有學生的學費的補助請問地方拿走了這麼多錢這些我剛剛念的他們可以負擔嗎?他們可以有這樣的權責嗎?再來講到衛福部的部分"},{"start":28257.813,"end":28284.807,"text":"很多人在提到說建保建保如果也從中央的預算被稀釋掉請問建保還包含其他像是營養午餐的一個補貼連同我們教育政策在一直在強調的員額的補助特教助理員的補助還有離島65歲以上的老人的補助還有中低收入戶未滿18歲的兒少的補助這都是要從中央來支應啊"},{"start":28287.008,"end":28294.231,"text":"請問我們中央的錢被拿走只剩下3000多億我還夠吃硬這些嗎?以上"},{"start":28323.652,"end":28342.977,"text":"可以先不要計時嗎?主席,你等一下可以不要評論我講的任何話嗎?你是說會議詢問我不要回答?你現在不是質詢...我沒有想問你耶!我其實真的沒有想問你,但是你今天...會議詢問你要問誰?我再跟主席您說話。沒有,我是主席。那你沒有要回答就對了齁?這是會議詢問,各位..."},{"start":28344.918,"end":28345.539,"text":"關於今天會議詢問了我們非常開心總算"},{"start":28363.315,"end":28380.797,"text":"讓我們的時間從一分鐘來到三分鐘主席剛剛還說要陪大家吃宵夜我們就來看一看主席到底要跟大家討論這個事情討論到哪裡可是我覺得今天所有在場的委員或是所有來自行政院的大家應該都可以發現"},{"start":28382.574,"end":28404.211,"text":"有非常多的委員在提醒不管是因為不夠有共識或者是每一個地方政府的想像還有每一個委員所關心的議題每一個委員所來自的地區大家的需求都不同如果有這麼多的困境我們必須要一起面對那我也要提醒不管是國民黨還是民眾黨的委員也都要一起"},{"start":28404.451,"end":28431.763,"text":"面對這個問題我想要從我手上的資料來看一下一、主席您所在的縣市而且你口口聲聲的說你是金門的女兒我們來看一下如果按照國民黨現在的提案版本主席您所來自的縣金門縣會受到哪些影響呢第一個在交通建設你一直呼籲交通建設要積極從中央挖錢我必須要說你要挖錢"},{"start":28432.463,"end":28450.975,"text":"可是如果按照你們提的版本相關計劃型的補助款項目在國內香港未來發展跟建設計劃會受到影響在公路公共運輸永續及交通平權計劃會受到影響主席又很喜歡標榜自己是來自於高學歷的大學中文系我們來看一下教育經費"},{"start":28451.915,"end":28479.306,"text":"少子女化計劃等學前教育會受到影響國民中小學孩子們必要的教育也會受到影響還有校園安全跟衛生教育也會受到影響那離開了教育場域我們來看社會福利跟醫療援助民族還有離島地區醫療保健行政工作會受到影響領導未滿2歲育兒津貼也會受到影響我就想要問來自金門的女兒主席主席我剛剛說請你不用回答謝謝"},{"start":28481.876,"end":28505.804,"text":"來自金門的主席口口聲聲說自己是金門的女兒你如何對您的鄉親、對您的長輩甚至是跟你的同輩他們可能都已經在家鄉結婚生子了他們在想像自己未來美好的生活但是在主席跟您的政黨還有民眾黨的支持跟堅持底下我們會看到非常荒謬"},{"start":28507.544,"end":28528.458,"text":"而且非常不合理,而且不認真論述的財劃法,所以我想要拜託主席您今天召開這個會議,我不知道您用意何在,但是我們可以看得出來,現在願意出席持續發言的國眾兩黨委員看起來屈指可數,我們也難以期待後續,但如果國眾兩黨"},{"start":28529.679,"end":28546.711,"text":"只想要用表決強度關山用多數決這件事情來忽略該對全台灣的人民做出正常正確的論述這件事情我認為請你們要再持續加油好謝謝主席我絕對不會超時但是我也不需要主席的回答跟評論謝謝"},{"start":28548.376,"end":28565.945,"text":"好 謝謝陳培鈺委員接著我們請李燕秀委員李燕秀 李燕秀 李燕秀不在然後我不會回應陳培鈺但是我還是要這個我們要講一下我們這個採訪法的修正有一條有一條那我們讓陳俊宇先發言是吧"},{"start":28589.081,"end":28599.425,"text":"好 謝謝主席主席可不可以先不計時我想跟您溝通一下可不可以先不計時"},{"start":28600.523,"end":28603.424,"text":"其實看起來今天整個財政委員會的亂象是由您而起充分發表意見啊因為從一開始的每一位"},{"start":28620.692,"end":28629.699,"text":"我希望說您能夠尊重每一個委員的範圍那也尊重正常的議事規則對啊正常議事規則讓每個人都有發言的機會啊其他沒有輪到他不要用麥克風在下面講話那我現在開始講啊現在開始齁 重新跟他計時齁"},{"start":28650.646,"end":28677.422,"text":"好那謝謝主席啦齁這個修財劃法這個知識體大也會牽動到國家整體的這個財政的穩定性必須以最嚴謹的這個態度來溝通並尋求這個共識啦齁那我們在討論不論是這個中央地方的這個垂直分配的合理性還是水平分配權和這個指標的這個公平性都應該"},{"start":28680.245,"end":28684.76,"text":"這個橫頻來看不應該只是重於分配比例的問題那我也認為"},{"start":28685.856,"end":28711.741,"text":"先前許多委員所強調今天若要對資源分配進行討論財權跟市權也應該通盤的檢討要讓哪些錢可以回歸地方相對的工作的業務也應該要交由地方來執行地方政府也相關部會也必須充分的交換意見包括地方制度法也需要配套進行修法才能讓中央和地方的政府"},{"start":28712.714,"end":28725.503,"text":"之間能夠全責相輔那今天只是單從中央釋出更多資源恐怕會排擠到的是國防還有社福、教育等重大的預算直接影響的是國家利益和民眾的這個權益"},{"start":28728.902,"end":28750.95,"text":"各縣市的財政狀況差異甚巨公商發展的條件也大不相同我也非常了解中央的經費挹注對於農業縣市的重要性尤其像宜蘭縣農特產非常豐富但對外的交通匱乏的情況更是嗷嗷待哺對於各項補助"},{"start":28753.609,"end":28775.93,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":28776.53,"end":28794.299,"text":"打成高度的共識就進行修法更可能會影響到中央財政調適的能力不但不利國家政策的推動還可能因為憑空多出來的資源導致財政紀律不佳而浪費公帑的情形"},{"start":28795.546,"end":28817.482,"text":"所以在財化法的修法上我們還是希望能夠更審慎、更嚴謹尋求中央和地方之間最大的共識之外也必須是通過一步能夠妥善執行的法律要能夠確實縮小地方政府間的財政落差進一步來均衡區域間的發展"},{"start":28818.283,"end":28837.063,"text":"我們相信這才是這個修財化法的一個最終目標那我也希望委員會能夠在讓各方充分討論之後中央部會和地方政府之間尋求共識並且在合法合憲的架構之下再進一步來進行修法"},{"start":28844.872,"end":28862.626,"text":"謝謝陳靜穎委員國民黨的版本第30條有提到一般補助款不得地少於修正施行前一年度的預算編列書所以不會產生像金門港建設營油的計畫減少的情形地方各地的交易應該發展自己的特色接著我們請蔡議員委員"},{"start":28878.954,"end":28885.545,"text":"好,謝謝主席那我這一次發言我也是希望主席可以針對我們禮拜三"},{"start":28887.163,"end":28907.739,"text":"等會給你說沒關係,我等一下可以讓你回答我先幫你記起來看你這樣很噁心的,我會體諒一下,讓你一下就是說我們禮拜三可能會邀請各地方政府來,那我們事實上先比較一下"},{"start":28908.8,"end":28932.006,"text":"每一個委員事實上都有提出財劃法的版本就現在我相信其他未來還會有新的委員會再提出那如果以現在這種版本我們去稍微比較一下第16條就好第16條他事實上就有講到我們先從賴瑞榮委員他就有講到說各地方政府你要去比較的有包括經濟建設設置"},{"start":28936.387,"end":28961.158,"text":"配合國家整體經濟建設設置高污染產業情形所以這個就需要一個各縣市的數據的比較高污染的產業情形那我們再看國民黨的這個應該是你們的書記長林思銘的委員他事實上也有抓出一個數據叫做"},{"start":28965.302,"end":28986.353,"text":"他一樣在16條之一的時候他有講到說各縣市的基礎建設落後程度工業及科技業碳排放情形所以這又跑出一個新的要件了叫做基礎建設落後程度工業及科技業碳排放情形他這邊又講出兩個要件剛剛賴樂永是產業的這個經濟設置高污染的產業的情形"},{"start":28995.077,"end":29017.82,"text":"那我自己也有提出一個版本我是針對國土計劃法中會對應到的農一、農二以及國保一、國保二那就涉及到了糧食安全以及水源的穩定的一個狀況那各縣市政府所承擔的一個比例那希望這樣的一個比例可以把它在財劃法做出一個相對應的規劃"},{"start":29019.541,"end":29043.627,"text":"所以事實上我的版本有兩個要件那你再看一下丁學忠委員的版本事實上他在16條之一他也有列舉一個他一樣是用國土計劃法去列屬於農業發展地區的超過50%應優先補助這個是丁學忠委員的用語好我現在列舉的這些狀況"},{"start":29044.907,"end":29053.908,"text":"事實上,主席這問題就來啊。好,就是禮拜三的時候,我們來進行各縣市的時候,我們光是這裡我們需要好多資料"},{"start":29055.1,"end":29081.39,"text":"我們需要各縣市政府說明說好我們這個縣市裡面你們污染產業的分布情形還是林思銘委員說這個建設落後的情形建設落後的定義是什麼我覺得財政部光是這幾個要件要怎麼定義這個要件什麼叫做經濟落後經濟進步又是什麼"},{"start":29082.834,"end":29093.023,"text":"那我們可以想像的嘛,多期增加,當然說有的增加的建設一定比多期看慢,但是以後還有什麼?還有什麼工業及科技業碳排放情形"},{"start":29103.836,"end":29126.282,"text":"這個是科學數據吧對這是科學數據嘛還有剛剛講的這是林思銘委員的版本嘛經濟建設落後程度落後程度是什麼所以我也說財政部愛心達這些名詞你們要去思考一下因為目前沒有行政院的版本可是有好多名詞這些名詞未來在主條的時候就會"},{"start":29128.163,"end":29132.509,"text":"就必須要討論可是我們不能進入主條就是這些名詞記憶不清楚而且這些名詞現在政府也要去說啊說我這個污染狀況怎樣那我這個地方我的未來和農一農二的比例是怎樣"},{"start":29144.464,"end":29152.586,"text":"對這些東西你都要統整出來,我們大家再進一步主調,我們才有一個較分析啊!是不是這樣?我回答你的會議詢問,我們來馬上做一個採釋根據這個財政委員所提的,比如說剛提的幾點財政部要聽到,經濟落後還有這個工業及科技的什麼判排放那如果還有其他裡面可以寫下來請這個財政部在禮拜三之間"},{"start":29170.871,"end":29183.038,"text":"禮拜三我會出來,這是他們的能力,不用擔心。那沒能力也得有能力啊,這是基本。剛剛蔡委員說到你們有專心聽喔,經濟落後的程度,你們要寫出定義,還有工業及科技的碳排放喔,還有哪一點?還有呢?還有呢?天委會來說明嘛,如果天委會不說明什麼意思,但是你說要讓部會回答,我們就叫他寫功課過來。"},{"start":29200.698,"end":29214.266,"text":"對阿,所以財政部聽到那一句話嗎?那面對著這些方案,那這個會談,在討論的時候,我們要怎麼主條?禮拜二晚上就要送過來,然後發給這個委員,還有嗎?雙方服務委員說你就寫給我,我就這樣比較...所以我才會認為說,我們需要更多的討論,去把這些定義好。除了其他委員,你也可以提你的版本喔。對對對,你把所有的定義寫上來,需要定義的,我一定會請,這個不會回答。地方政府也要做這個資料的彙整阿。"},{"start":29230.595,"end":29230.755,"text":"主席"},{"start":29252.513,"end":29267.281,"text":"這個應該是環境部的喔,碳排放喔這個是環境部的蔡英文提這個這個是環境部喔記得要教功課喔禮拜三以前還有經濟落後程度喔這個應該經濟落後程度這應該是經濟部的事情吧經濟部經濟部有沒有來"},{"start":29269.093,"end":29283.858,"text":"今天我們沒有來,等一下轉達給國會委員會的請次,因為次長都要過來,我們要請他交關課蔡議員、委員也歡迎再提出更多的定義,我會請各個部會禮拜三之前交過來,謝謝蔡委員接著請王晃衛委員,謝謝"},{"start":29300.37,"end":29303.152,"text":"謝謝主席其實經過大家這麼多的發言之後我就說了這個財劃法本來就應該可以集思廣益、精益求精那麼在前面幾位委員還特別質疑有關於中央和地方的財政自治的部分、自治事項的分配"},{"start":29326.613,"end":29342.079,"text":"那我一直講就說非常歡迎我們很多位委員關心財劃法但是呢請大家也多要用功一下啦因為事實上比如大家提到的地方制度法地方制度法第18條、第19條、第20條對於中央和地方的自治事項其實都列明列得非常清楚是具體的羅列"},{"start":29354.584,"end":29357.727,"text":"另外在這個財化法剛才有講到說這個有沒有違反我們財政紀律法因為事實上不管是我們的憲法或者是我們的地方制度法剛才說了其實就已經非常明確的"},{"start":29376.204,"end":29384.228,"text":"告訴大家我們的稅分國稅、省稅、縣稅也有分中央財政和國稅其實"},{"start":29388.123,"end":29394.087,"text":"在我們的《財化法》開宗明義就是根據中華民國憲法來制定的所以之前還會有說這有沒有違憲的問題我真的覺得不要什麼萬物都要去釋憲 釋憲是上癮了因為《財化法》雖然有25年沒有修正"},{"start":29410.237,"end":29429.063,"text":"但是,它不是一部完全創新的法律,它是一個舊法。過去在憲法、在地方制度法,我剛才講,包含憲法裡面所規定相關的中央和地方的"},{"start":29430.023,"end":29433.546,"text":"職務、職權以及自治事項都講得非常的清楚所以修正財劃法沒有任何違憲違法的問題那另外大家也講到說哎呀"},{"start":29445.695,"end":29465.872,"text":"你們現在這個財化法有沒有什麼財政紀律法令找財源的問題從明年開始我們地方議會我想我不曉得各位委員記不記得我們地方議會的明代知己條例的修正我們地方明代的助理我們都薪資把它調高因為長期也是20多年都沒有調薪"},{"start":29473.098,"end":29486.139,"text":"那麼行政院也提出相關的版本。行政院也沒有提出說提高地方民代知己條例助理薪水有什麼一個"},{"start":29488.246,"end":29514.635,"text":"特殊的財源替代的財源所以我們在上個會期在所有不分政黨各黨派的委員都支持下然後提高了我們地方民代的知己條例在這樣的狀況之下也沒有違法也沒有違反財政紀律法的問題所以在這邊正本清源"},{"start":29515.555,"end":29532.558,"text":"大家關心我們很歡迎但是呢相關的財劃法的修正它本來就是一部已經存在的法律我們只是把它相關的中央和地方的財源分配來做調整既無違法更沒有違憲如果大家不理解的話建議大家"},{"start":29540.12,"end":29552.788,"text":"可以去參考憲法的107條還有我們財化法的開宗明義的總綱就已經告訴你這是依據憲法所制定的法律以上謝謝"},{"start":29554.638,"end":29580.094,"text":"謝謝王洪威委員剛剛針對這個蔡委員所提出的這幾點我再重申一下請各個部會專心聽到基礎建設落後程度這個應該經濟部工業及科技業碳排放情形這個應該是環境部然後高污染產業情形及空氣污染指數這個應該是環境部然後再加上國土計畫農業發展地區這個應該是內政部"},{"start":29586.186,"end":29611.72,"text":"還有...剛連連到這幾項基礎建設這個是基礎建設這個是交通部好交通部經濟落後程度這個是經濟部各部會都聽到了請在星期三星期二之前星期二下班之前要把這個我們蔡委員所提的這些指標的定義一定要交過來好謝謝接著我們請吳立法委員"},{"start":29614.124,"end":29618.528,"text":"吳立法委員、吳立法委員、吳立法委員不在吳立法委員、吳立法委員、吳立法委員不在"},{"start":29640.525,"end":29650.217,"text":"各位立法院的同仁我想今天我們在財政委員會的這一天其實大家剛才談了很多但重點我們感覺到"},{"start":29651.804,"end":29673.8,"text":"國民黨團還是不願意拔其實大家一直講出目前假設我們真的要好好的理性討論這個財劃法到底目前還缺乏什麼到底還有什麼問題可以聽進去所以今天為什麼這麼多的委員要在這裡面用發言的方式苦口婆心的在這邊提醒"},{"start":29674.929,"end":29697.24,"text":"在這邊要求就是因為我們知道以目前要來好好的討論理性的討論的財劃法目前版本上面看起來並不具備這樣的條件我想今天在座有很多的委員我們曾經都製作過很多的財務計劃跟財務分配請問有哪一個負責任的財務計劃"},{"start":29699.349,"end":29720.484,"text":"只需要討論挖錢不用討論如何支出或為什麼支出支出的義務為何請問在哪一個負責的財務計畫裡面你看得到這種狀況更不用說以現在國民黨的版本裡面我們已經可以預見未來很可能"},{"start":29722.369,"end":29747.376,"text":"我們的國防支出、國防預算很可能會遇到要大幅限縮的這個狀況這是為什麼大家一直在這邊提醒想要花錢想要讓地方多一點收入這可以討論但請問要不要有哪些法定的事權要來一併的調整這是大家一直不斷在追問的這個問題如果"},{"start":29751.188,"end":29772.671,"text":"當這一個垂直分配的狀況讓我們在國防的支出、讓健保的支出都出問題的時候我們要問還是地方政府願意來承擔跟分擔國防的支出、健保的支出接下來部分由地方政府來負擔、由基本權政府來負擔好不好"},{"start":29774.409,"end":29792.862,"text":"這是大家為什麼現在一直在討論事權最重要的原因剛剛郭國麟委員說目前國民黨的版本是他看過最糟糕的版本但國民黨說25年沒修了我們還是必須修但如果按照現在"},{"start":29794.244,"end":29820.462,"text":"公黨的版本修下去很可能對國家的體制、中央地方的分權造成更大的問問很多我們原本中央該做的法定支出無以為繼請問這誰要負責?請問誰要負責?公黨團要負責嗎?還是地方政府要負責嗎?對不起都沒有人說所以現在我們在立法院看到的狀況是"},{"start":29822.133,"end":29848.673,"text":"我們立法委員要求中央要承擔越來越多的責任建保點值要中央承擔、社福支出要中央承擔、建設的預算、工建要中央承擔這都是中央的責任但對不起地方我們要更多的收入但對於收到多的錢要怎麼用對不起不講的啦覺得沒有醫護提供啊"},{"start":29850.083,"end":29875.591,"text":"絕對沒有義務交代啦請問這是一個負責任的財務分配計畫嗎所以我們在這邊為什麼一講再講的原因就是因為拜託這是一個攸關國家未來發展大計的大法沒有錯啊這是憲法要求我們訂《財劃法》的沒錯啊但當你把《財劃法》搞爛了以後"},{"start":29877.191,"end":29894.559,"text":"這影響的是誰?影響的是在座的每一個人啊要修法可以但可不可以用負責任一點的方式來討論這個法條而不是用現在這種態度責任都要別人背權力都要自己拿"},{"start":29896.412,"end":29920.516,"text":"這就是現在我們看到國民黨的版本好 謝謝喔已經超過三分鐘了剛剛那個蔡議員所說還有我剛剛看到的這個農業部的農業部也要講農二跟農一農二的比例要準備喔好 謝謝接著我們請陳秀寶委員 謝謝何委員可以登記第三輪發言還有第三輪"},{"start":29931.272,"end":29957.259,"text":"謝謝主席主席你也不要一直強調說為什麼我們會詢問不讓你回答因為你這答非所問所以你就不要回答了好謝謝我要再次強調中央的財源跟地方的財源合理劃分是不分黨派應該共同努力的方向及目標但是必須要充分的討論每個區域立委都希望為地方爭取更多的經費我的立場並不是反對修法"},{"start":29960.6,"end":29979.13,"text":"但是我們必須要有周全的討論、細緻的討論我們希望能夠更周延、更綿密的來修這個財劃法今天的這個所有的法案的版本對我們地方是真的比較有利嗎?應該怎樣的分配比例對地方才是真的最有效益、最公平?"},{"start":29980.13,"end":29996.911,"text":"過去我們也曾經來到中央跟著縣長一起來到中央來爭取財劃法應該要調整但是我們願意給中央、給部會時間來研議因為沒有經過充分的討論沒有共識所修出來的法就是倉促的、粗糙的"},{"start":29998.308,"end":30019.103,"text":"看似增加了縣府的財源收入但是我們失去的是中央統籌的公共建設、交通建設、重大建設這樣子的修法對地方真的是比較有利嗎?中央的經費就是固定這麼多每個縣市分走了之後中央還有多少可以用來支應在國防、在教育、在社福、在醫療、在軍警、消防等等的業務難道可以說那既然經費分配給了縣市那這些業務也通通給縣市都領走嗎?"},{"start":30027.108,"end":30055.883,"text":"沒有稀釋的討論地方政府應該負擔的、能負擔的這個前提之下要要求中央政府釋出財源會使重大建設的規劃困難許多跨域的、跨縣市的公共工程、交通工程、公共建設都是由中央統籌來規劃並主導在我選區裡面現在正在興建的河美大橋彰化到台中兩分鐘就會到這是跨縣市的建設也是跨部會的經費有交通部、有內政部"},{"start":30056.323,"end":30074.759,"text":"如果因為釋出財源需要扣減相關的經費將會使許多重大建設停擺不僅不利國家的發展也對地方政府推動地方建設進度有所阻礙我從2020年上任就很積極爭取了美港公路高架化"},{"start":30075.66,"end":30081.488,"text":"經過不斷的關心追蹤,終於在2024年的2月由前行政院長陳建仁院長合訂後面交通部還要後續要做的還有綜合規劃環評及建設計劃如果財劃法很倉促地強行通過"},{"start":30091.303,"end":30107.196,"text":"那麼這些中央的財源釋出之後到底地方因應期盼的這個美港公路高架化該如何來繼續我們需要有更細緻周全的討論有共同的共識再來修法才是地方之福主席您不用回答謝謝陳秀寶委員我們還有第三輪的登記還沒有登記還沒想發言委員可以繼續登記好接著我們請內會委員、委員"},{"start":30118.766,"end":30119.446,"text":"主席"},{"start":30148.544,"end":30173.731,"text":"各位同仁大家好我想今天呢會討論這麼久有一部分的時間呢其實跟主席的主持議會風格息息相關主席呢喜歡評論別人但我今天也稍微評論一下主席主席今天的這個召委的角色已經形成一個歷史定位啦也就是所謂的一分真這一分真啊造成今天的議事九分亂啦"},{"start":30175.131,"end":30189.439,"text":"所以一分真的這個召委會創下本委員會歷史以來最大的惡例我希望主席在後續的討論擔任召委的期間不要再形成一分真的亂象"},{"start":30190.66,"end":30196.246,"text":"一個很奇怪,早上的時候你又comment我了,這麼急嗎?是一分言還半分言?這樣子啊,你老是這樣子都事後來審判我們我講的話你又要干擾我"},{"start":30208.179,"end":30215.627,"text":"我剛剛才提醒過你不要變成酒氛亂你又繼續來跟我亂主席你要浪費我的時間你要倒回去啊你不如用這個方式來跟我吵架嘛對不對你只想評論別人不讓人家評論哪有這種道理謝謝你希望你能夠虛心檢討"},{"start":30230.481,"end":30249.318,"text":"主席早上我還有一個就事情上的討論當中呢我就很慎重的提出說為什麼我屢屢在每一次在財政委員會討論財政收支劃分法的時候都希望透過不同角度來面對等個地方財政的問題為什麼都沒有討論今天就要進入主條"},{"start":30250.621,"end":30274.387,"text":"為什麼?今天的狀況當中我就早上就講很清楚在整個事權跟財權的過程當中有很清楚的面對啊地方政府長期以來仰賴於地方的整個計劃型補助啊包括在11、3年的計劃型補助啊就高達2600億之多在11、4年的計劃型補助啊更高達2911億就將近3000億喔"},{"start":30279.996,"end":30294.789,"text":"這種計劃型的補助啊已經變成常態化了那我要問一下主席啊這樣子的情況底下中央跟地方的權屬劃分要怎麼劃分是不是應該把這些常態性的計劃型的補助下放給地方政府"},{"start":30295.47,"end":30319.724,"text":"免得你一頭過來要跟我增加錢把我的統籌分配款全力拿下去下放給地方之後結果責任又留在中央啊中央的部分又撥錢給你天下豈有如此道理啊這更不合理嘛所以為什麼我會義正嚴詞的講說國民黨版本是史上最爛的版本不是國民黨比較厲害"},{"start":30320.825,"end":30336.337,"text":"二十五年來沒有修改的版本不是國民黨比較厲害是國民黨的臉皮比較厚而已啦不是你們比較厲害你們用一個垂直的概念就想要解決整個地方財政的問題那簡直是滑...滑...整個是天下滑天下之機嘛"},{"start":30337.378,"end":30364.653,"text":"我必須說清楚這個不是那麼簡單會拖了25年從1999年動審之後至今還沒有修改一定有它的原因其來有至其來有至的原因就是說此部法案要形成共識相當之困難嘛如果說要面對這個問題就要從長計議你們不是一個從長計議的角色你們不是為了整個制度可長可久你們不是想要建立一個良法美意都不是"},{"start":30365.714,"end":30392.168,"text":"你們只是想要癱瘓中央你們只是想要破壞體制這就是國民黨修法版本背後的真正的政治目的啦你應該讓我講久一點啦每次講到國民黨你就站起來你不是要給我更多時間嗎還有第四輪啦 對不對還有第四輪我可以等你啊好我今天第三輪在等你第四輪謝謝喔這個第三輪謝謝郭委員喔這個講得真的非常好喔不用看稿來"},{"start":30393.568,"end":30418.317,"text":"這個有沒有人要登記這個倉座俱佳?這個有沒有人要登記第三輪?說你好壞也不行喔!說你講得很好!說你很好啊!我已經從一分鐘到給大家三分鐘,可不可以再改一下?來!"},{"start":30420.526,"end":30442.126,"text":"第三輪我們第三輪有沒有人要登記?沒有我們就結束第三輪的登記了你要登記嗎?請登記我們還有第四輪大家不用擔心我們因為今天會開到12點所以大家不用擔心每一輪往下開我會給大家吃飯的時間蔡議員你要登記是嗎?好那我們第三輪蔡議員還有沒有人現場要登記的?"},{"start":30444.451,"end":30460.38,"text":"沈博洋委員有登記了吼?好,如果沒有,我們第三輪登記就結束了吼,那我們就會,我們會延長開會告辭,晚上12點吼。好,我們現在接著請沈博洋委員吼,我們今天會開到12點吼,大家要準備吼,要有心理準備吼。好,謝謝。"},{"start":30468.052,"end":30484.918,"text":"沈伯洋第三次發言那這個主席有時候還是會忍不住評論所以還是這個但是大家每次上來都已經拜託我覺得就不用再拜託一次了那我們剛剛講到就是說國民黨這次修法的一個動機那為什麼我們說這個不宜進入主條"},{"start":30485.658,"end":30514.008,"text":"最主要的原因最主要在今年年初的時候就已經有花東三法的問題當時花東三法被提出來的時候大家的聲音是什麼就是那裡的財源到底要哪裡來你為什麼可以直接挖掉那麼大的一筆的預算所以當時也是因為這樣喊停了之後結果現在新的財化法這樣的一個修正方式反而是把所有的縣市一起拖下水本來就只有在花東相關的一個財政"},{"start":30514.748,"end":30528.604,"text":"把他變成是一個全國的一個財政問題但我還是要再度強調就是地方上需不需要錢這本來就是一個假命題從103年2014年一直到現在地方上的支出是增加了8%"},{"start":30530.686,"end":30554.045,"text":"以及不管是這個所謂的統籌分配款從2400多億到4700多億還包含一般性的補助款從1800多億到2500多億各部會的計劃型補助從1200多到2900多這個增幅非常的巨大我在上一輪發言的時候也有提到就是我們現在的收入是62比38支出是64比36"},{"start":30558.989,"end":30584.018,"text":"這個基本上並沒有地方上財源不足的問題更不要講說地方上並還沒有提出相關的計劃所以如果用這個虛假的命題當作理由的話這個並不合適那再來就是呢因為這是會議詢問我不進入細節的討論但會議詢問最主要我們反對的一點就是如果禮拜三我們請到每一個不同的地方政府來這個沒有任何的"},{"start":30584.858,"end":30599.665,"text":"任何的一個比照為什麼呢?你每一個縣市政府每一個地方問他要不要100億、問他要不要200億他都欣然接受嘛但問題就是這個錢到底是從哪裡挖出來的所以被挖的人也應該要在場才對"},{"start":30601.366,"end":30615.417,"text":"所以這就是我們在會議詢問非常重要的一個訴求就是不只是法案裡面的標準不明確的問題今天是國防部被挖還是衛福部被挖我們今天是不是像我剛剛講的魚叉飛彈是不是就不要買了我們各這個什麼軍裡面的每一個我們的陸軍的海軍的空軍的裝備是不是都不要了我們0到2歲這個現在國家要補助是不是就不要了"},{"start":30626.705,"end":30642.121,"text":"我們請總召來說明是不是他現在認為花蓮的公托也都完全不要了?人民的補助是不是也都不要了?因為把這些都不要了之後才有辦法把錢全部按照這一個法案丟給地方"},{"start":30642.802,"end":30668.624,"text":"如果這一件事情沒有其他的部會來說明被挖的人沒有來說明的話我們只是討論水平分配這件事情然後說水平分配公不公平問題是那一個肉擺在那邊大家都想要吃啊但我們如果因為這個樣子去弱化我們的國安弱化我們的國防2900多億的國防預算是什麼概念我們國防預算是6000多億也就是將近一半的國防預算會這樣憑空消失"},{"start":30670.245,"end":30674.754,"text":"我覺得這個就是為什麼我們不應該進入逐條討論最重要的理由謝謝"},{"start":30675.782,"end":30704.531,"text":"好 謝謝沈博洋委員發言根據您的擔心剛剛您的擔心我們早上有做決議就是星期三的時候我們會請所有部會剛剛已經發通知了政務次長以上要報到一定要來所以如果要請假了我們你看我們這麼多委員這麼關心是不准請假的政務次長各個部會全部都發通知因為每位委員說每個部會都會影響到那大家記得一定要來接著我們請林楚英委員發言"},{"start":30706.316,"end":30706.336,"text":"是嗎?"},{"start":30717.889,"end":30744.257,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想從早上9點討論到現在為什麼需要不斷的會議詢問就是因為一開始真的只有一分鐘然後呢一分鐘的過程中現場又很混亂當時我第一次發言的時候我只講了26秒那我希望透過現在的會議詢問想大家也都逐漸的凝聚了共識首先第一個當然就是對於接下來我們的會議的進行包括禮拜三那麼禮拜三"},{"start":30746.599,"end":30764.097,"text":"呃﹑剛剛國民黨的委員一直不斷的是講說阿民進黨你要提版本阿有民進黨包括武力華委員也有版本那麼到了禮拜三之後第一個現在就是除了可能被預算被縮減的中央部會要來因為這是一個"},{"start":30765.367,"end":30766.187,"text":"等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等"},{"start":30786.736,"end":30801.71,"text":"是符合全民的利益嗎?這是第一點第二點是剛剛我們講到的一早我的那26秒當中我就提到了從過去的第一次的審查到公聽會都出現就是22個縣市有出席的"},{"start":30802.25,"end":30817.792,"text":"他們對於能夠多一點預算跟經費當然都OK但是所多出來的預算經費包括過去本席在財政委員會非常清楚的從財政部到主計處對於地方的財政是有一定"},{"start":30818.613,"end":30832.549,"text":"的所謂指標當他們的這個所謂財政紀律的指標不足的時候是會對於他們的地方政府的預算使用會有所限制"},{"start":30833.59,"end":30845.559,"text":"那麼對於現在有些地方政府會去蓋所謂的蚊子館又或者是去辦一些放煙火的活動這個也是過去多所批評但是如果現在根據國民黨的黨版你要用這種所謂的只給錢不問預算怎麼使用那麼現在本席就要問了當中央政府的官員出席了"},{"start":30856.727,"end":30872.58,"text":"地方政府的官員也來了那麼地方政府的官員是不是也應該在禮拜三的時候要好好的做出說明不能只是說有錢給我多多益善越多越好中央要表達"},{"start":30873.32,"end":30887.813,"text":"那麼到底是哪些?比如說國防預算我們不要了嗎?還是民眾最希望的社會福利預算我們不要了?或者是教育預算我們不要了?然後讓地方來執行,而地方能不能做得到?"},{"start":30888.433,"end":30909.311,"text":"所以本席要問的是禮拜三當這些中央部會跟地方政府都派員出席的時候我們雖然身為外委會的委員但是我們長期在關注國家財政的委員我們是不是還是會像今天郁真主席這樣只給我一分鐘讓我沒有辦法問沒有辦法提出我的疑問謝謝"},{"start":30913.018,"end":30935.021,"text":"你剛已經講不只1分鐘,已經3分鐘以上了不過我要再次提醒各個部會一定要回去講我們每位委員都關心各個部會剛還有一個部會,某部會還要想要請教每位委員都不准你們請教各個部會的次長以上一定都要來,大家記得喔每位委員都非常關心喔接著我們請李燕秀委員"},{"start":30944.366,"end":30971.405,"text":"好 從今天早上無論是會議詢問或者是程序發言到現在其實已經好幾輪了我覺得更重要的重點是區域立委對於各縣市都有很多不同的意見跟版本我覺得任何一個政策可以透過不斷的討論讓政策更成熟我覺得這就是溝通協調的方式但是我更遺憾的是我有看到民進黨有幾個版本出來"},{"start":30973.146,"end":30990.773,"text":"當然國民黨也有怎麼樣去討論最後就是一個溝通妥協的結果但是更重要的是坐在現場財政部部長不是第一年欸不是第一年欸你們在底下的事務官都多少年今天為財劃法這麼多年來大家都要喊包括過去的賴清德市長過去的行政院長過去的副總統"},{"start":30999.861,"end":31013.946,"text":"每一次選舉回到台南就說要修要修主計長過去也是台南的主計長也很清楚要修怎麼會換了一個位置就換了一個腦袋財換法的修正有沒有財政紀律的問題"},{"start":31016.243,"end":31041.037,"text":"政治苛責、選舉苛責無論中央或地方的首長沒有好好的花錢選民、全國民眾自然有對政治人物苛責的方式採訪法不是不能修怎麼樣去談出一個大家雖不滿意但是勉強可以接受的版本"},{"start":31042.257,"end":31059.606,"text":"這才是最進步的版本但是民進黨現在的做法就是以拖待變不想修這不是現在的民進黨政府包括現在的賴清德總統打臉過去的賴清德市長打臉過去的行政院長打臉蘇貞昌"},{"start":31061.787,"end":31086.167,"text":"打臉潘孟安等等這麼多民進黨的立委過去都喊說要修要修所以我才說歷史真的是一面最好的鏡子可以把民進黨過去跟現在的雙標看得非常的清楚現在民進黨你們可以集體施以沒有關係但是凡走過都必留下痕跡大家都看得到今天我針對台北市我有一個修正的版本出來是針對於16條之一我認為"},{"start":31090.54,"end":31109.897,"text":"大家都可以有不同的意見但是我們透過溝通協調你們也可以針對我的版本可以有不同的意見但沒有關係但是我覺得就是要透過討論法案才有機會更成熟我的想法是針對16條之一特別是六都的部分地方政府財政招商都非常努力包括鼓勵就業"},{"start":31111.318,"end":31121.265,"text":"為增加營利事業的部分應該要把營利事業鼓勵就業的營利事業所得稅額都應該要留在地方這個是我的版本16條之一我們也希望修法之後可以把權重至少維持在50%左右這個是我今天所提出來修正版本也請召委跟各位委員給我們意見跟指教 謝謝"},{"start":31141.979,"end":31159.357,"text":"謝謝李燕秀委員吼我們現在第三輪還有四位委員吼那我們現在開放第四輪的委員吼在現場第四輪吼如果要登記第四輪請來登記那我們休息十分鐘讓大家登記吼那等第三輪回答完我們進行第四輪吼好休息十分鐘吼要第四輪趕快來登記吼"},{"start":31781.325,"end":31781.786,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":31805.216,"end":31826.025,"text":"好 謝謝主席主席今天非常辛苦然後呢我們也充分的讓所有的委員對於財化法能夠做一些說明那在這邊剛才我之前也特別提到了從這個法令上的依據不管是憲法或者是那個地方制度法"},{"start":31826.565,"end":31848.683,"text":"事上都授予《財化法》它的一個修法。《財化法》它是一個原來就在的法律,不是新的法律。另外,我們也要特別提到,我們剛才很多委員都提到了說除了統籌分配款之外,那麼中央還有給地方包含一般補助款或者是計劃補助款。"},{"start":31851.525,"end":31859.374,"text":"但是不可諱言的即便是在6月5號我們的公聽會非常多的地方政府都提到了這幾年來在整個的財政的分配裡面經常發生中央請客、地方買單"},{"start":31872.629,"end":31899.217,"text":"例如我剛才所提到的我們針對地方的民代的加緊知己條例的提高不管是議員的助理薪水或者是對於里長的春節慰問金或者之前包含軍公教的調薪或者是對於警勤加緊的提高"},{"start":31900.237,"end":31908.639,"text":"那麼非常多的政策是來自於中央宣布但是並沒有給地方一個確定的財源所以大家一直在講說財政具體法很重要很重要啊確實很重要我剛才講了嘛我們的賴詩寶委員在現場"},{"start":31922.682,"end":31925.684,"text":"大家一直說財政紀律法就是由我們賴士寶委員所催生的但是我們這個財政紀律之父啊他對於財化法、財政紀律法都非常清楚所以今天我們很多的所謂的補助款"},{"start":31940.871,"end":31967.475,"text":"其實本來就應該給地方啊因為是你中央這些的政策自行宣布之後然後讓地方來做買單那麼有一些譬如可能財政狀況比較好的六都他還可以指引但是對極大多數的縣市政府當你去宣布了一個政策中央宣布一個政策之後"},{"start":31968.055,"end":31975.257,"text":"他根本連財源在哪裡都不知道所以我們地方現在面臨的問題是他的財政第一個收入不穩定還有他完全沒有辦法去能夠控制他的一個財政的支出我們甚至有一些縣市政府啊"},{"start":31990.842,"end":31992.503,"text":"他連人事費都要仰仗中央的補助款給他。中央補助款不給他,他連人事費、連薪水都發不出來。所以在這樣的一個極度扭曲的中央地方財政的分配結構之下,"},{"start":32012.518,"end":32015.901,"text":"要修正財劃法真的是當務之急那當然財劃法的修正有所謂垂直性就是中央要分多少給地方那麼接下來地方之間的分配有水平的分配"},{"start":32030.754,"end":32032.736,"text":"但是無論如何我覺得今天如果我們執政的我們各位委員如果你去回去聽一聽你自己地方財主單位的心聲你就知道在垂直分配有多麼不公平有多麼地方有多麼希望"},{"start":32051.05,"end":32068.577,"text":"能夠競速競速的能夠加速我們財化法的修正所以在這邊也希望我們今天在座所有關心財化法修正的委員們能夠直接進入今天我們用各種的理由"},{"start":32069.517,"end":32090.547,"text":"主旨財劃法的修正其實最大的受害者仍然是我們所有的地方政府也是尤其我們在整個財政能力比較差、比較弱勢的地方的選民其實他們的受害更深好 以上謝謝謝謝王洪委員 接著請黃珊珊委員"},{"start":32100.121,"end":32101.712,"text":"我們第四輪發言已經登記完畢了"},{"start":32104.758,"end":32129.563,"text":"好 謝謝主席各位同仁我想財劃法從我們上個會期提出來台灣民眾黨的版本其實我們一直很期待財政部還有行政院都能夠善意的回應對於地方政府也好還有立法委員各黨團提出來的版本的回應跟內容那財政部在上個會期也說他們要去查調查我們接下來到底有哪些"},{"start":32130.943,"end":32154.98,"text":"經由哪些項目是可以做這樣的處理也請主計總署去算出來中央政府總預算在多少額度範圍之內不至於影響到中央正式運作但是很遺憾的到現在為止我們沒有看到財政部跟主計總署把上個會期答應財政委員會要做的相關的調查明細提供給委員會做參考這是第一點"},{"start":32155.76,"end":32183.054,"text":"第二個,上個會期所做的相關的決議希望財政部在這個會期能夠提出修法版本至少要有修法的進度報告但現在看起來財政部依然是以地方政府水平分配有很多的爭執所以不願意提出相關的版本這也是我們認為從行政應該要對立法負責的態度上面是一個相當不負責任的態度第三點"},{"start":32184.415,"end":32198.692,"text":"各個版本其實現在都已經在各位的桌上了其實內容都差不了太多那唯一大家一直在爭執說那水平分配可能會因為縣市政府他的需求有一些問題這就是我們希望能夠討論的地方那當然"},{"start":32202.168,"end":32223.299,"text":"主席已經邀請各單位包括各縣市政府都來立法院這邊做說明我們也很期待能夠聽到財政部對每一個水平分配爭點到底在哪裡為什麼有這個爭點他為什麼會分配不公那你們現在的辦法既然是號稱行政院長卓榮泰說是最好的辦法那我一再說"},{"start":32224.48,"end":32252.528,"text":"台灣民眾黨沒有對於版本特別的堅持水平分配的內容我們也希望財政部把你們最好的版本拿出來這個版本我們把它入法如果你現在可以做到你們認為最適合的方法那為什麼不能拿出來在立法院讓立法委員幫你們把你們最好的方法修成所謂水平分配的公式我覺得這個部分是相當的矛盾還是財政部只想把這個權柄放在手上"},{"start":32253.368,"end":32274.466,"text":"我們來自地方議會也來自地方政府每一次中央說要軍工教加薪的那一年當年會給補助第二年以後自己想辦法同樣的中央請客地方買單的案子不勝計數非常非常的多尤其是社會福利方面"},{"start":32275.39,"end":32296.124,"text":"只要中央推一個政策地方政府就要推出相同的預算然後去排擠到更多他們本來想做的事情這才是我們今天要修財劃法的主要原因所以我想還是一樣希望財政部在審查的過程中把你們該答應財政委員會給的資料拜託在慶喜山一定要拿到我們的桌上第二個"},{"start":32296.964,"end":32314.155,"text":"對於你們認為有爭議的部分也請你一一的說明你們碰到的爭議是什麼也許委員們大家可以協助大家一起來解決你們認為沒有辦法達成的共識我覺得在這個殿堂裡面我們是可以理性的來討論而不需要互相的衝突"},{"start":32330.144,"end":32343.022,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進那麼今天一整天還有上一次一整天我們的主席啊這個有那個mercy非常的慈悲的心啊"},{"start":32344.262,"end":32372.813,"text":"讓大家暢所欲言一輪、一輪、一輪、一輪害得大家沒有話也擠話出來。結果今天發現到除了講這些之外,還有一個帽子製造工廠在這個地方出現了。一頂一支帽子丟出來。請教各位啊,財務法修了結果現在南北最大的公司就是中央撥3000億。3000億佔總預算十分之一啊,總預算三兆。"},{"start":32374.888,"end":32400.458,"text":"3000億是要幹什麼?喔!國防預算沒有了!喔!這個健保沒有了!喔!這個沒有了!那個沒有了!這個叫做恐嚇老百姓啦!只是為了民進黨要這個以為他可以長期執政所以拼命的阻擋把這個決定錢交給地方我們都了解今天錢都在那裡錢沒有少啊!"},{"start":32401.62,"end":32416.745,"text":"錢沒有少只是說這個決定權在誰的地方原來中央給你地方政府像乞丐一樣跟他要現在呢有3000億左右不要跟中央要了不要像乞丐一樣背宮屈膝這樣子跟你要了你就給地方錢都在那裡錢沒有少啊各位錢那裡有少公寓上有少嗎沒有啊健保有少嗎沒有啊青菜公共連帽子一定一定送過來"},{"start":32432.655,"end":32439.805,"text":"這個欺騙老百姓也不是這樣欺騙的啦第二點我要強調的今天財政部啊最該受大家的撻伐"},{"start":32440.885,"end":32463.959,"text":"在上個會期結束之前他明明答應了這個會期之前要送財政部的版本到現在也都沒有送然後財政部不斷地說他有個分配公司那你就寫出來啊所以我們講的各位現在用什麼水平分配改不平來反對"},{"start":32465.823,"end":32489.862,"text":"我們就講中央你給我們地方多3000億怎麼分配還是財政部來分配啊為什麼不可以就給你分配吧你有公司就去分配這3000億啊就3000億你分配啊這是第二點我想強調第三點強調包括賴清德總統包括陳其邁市長都要修財劃法"},{"start":32491.084,"end":32502.458,"text":"為什麼各位偉大的委員們拼命在這裡阻擋呢?而且我們要修我們要看人口、面積、財政的努力這個都是原來就是去考慮的"},{"start":32503.581,"end":32527.681,"text":"我這裡特別的強調一個先是他的努力是表現在營業額營業稅營業稅50%最少就按照現在版本現在的版本營業稅50%要放在要給地方50%不能夠再低了最後一點我還是要強調的"},{"start":32529.022,"end":32556.08,"text":"我們在沒有修支錢這個中央不僅僅把權力全部抓走錢全部抓走而且還吃地方政府的豆腐常常通過這個法案剛才有委員提到了軍工就要加薪結果最後都是地方政府在買單啊娛樂稅原來是地方的啊你也是現在說取消啊就地方買單啊就變成除了被你這樣子全部拿走之後還要吃地方政府的豆腐"},{"start":32557,"end":32582.018,"text":"中央請客地方買單這個我們這修裁判法一定要把它修掉我再強調一遍你們用分配公式真的擺不平、隨便擺不平那就按你們的公式你們來處理就好了不需要講這些啦真的只是要滿足你們以為可以長期執政這個球是圓的啦哪一天換國民黨執政啊你們就想不想裁判法啦謝謝"},{"start":32584.934,"end":32587.095,"text":"謝謝主席我剛剛上一輪發言是針對每一個委員的版本16條之一"},{"start":32607.229,"end":32629.402,"text":"那事實上他會針對於有很多項目是需要財政部、內政部甚至還有環境部他有很多指標那這些指標他因為是個別委員的提案可是財政部還是要針對這些委員提案要去讓各縣市至少他們禮拜三來到"},{"start":32630.522,"end":32641.796,"text":"我們這個財政委員會的時候他們有辦法去說明嘛就是說到底什麼是這個因為經濟配合國家經濟發展的污染指標"},{"start":32643.457,"end":32659.467,"text":"那這個指標要定在哪裡那地方政府來的時候比方說高雄市政府來的時候他說因為我們從過去高雄的重工業包括中鋼、中油這樣的一個重工業所造成的污染這個指標"},{"start":32661.388,"end":32688.345,"text":"那財政部才要從這樣的一個基準點去計算未來如果財政收支劃分的時候要如何分配然後可以去彌補過去他們這個污染指標我可以想像大概就是這樣包括我自己的版本我是用農一農二這個國土計劃法雖然國土計劃法現在還沒有上路而且很多縣市的分區工人圖也還沒有提出來所以現在這一個"},{"start":32689.105,"end":32703.947,"text":"光榮一、榮二,未來它的比例是多少,現在似乎也還沒辦法很清楚的知道。那我接下來還要講一件事情就是說,我們的財政,這一個財政規劃法,它到底還有涉及到哪一些法律?"},{"start":32705.083,"end":32716.478,"text":"要配合修法,地方制度法需要嗎?還是地方稅法的通則有沒有需要?這一些相對應的一個法律我覺得財政部也要嘗試去準備資料"},{"start":32722.405,"end":32749.831,"text":"趙偉我具體建議啦我們現在因為都是在做程序發言事實上我們比較期待的還是可以請官員上來我們跟他這個問我們詢問官員然後才有辦法得到答案因為我們現在今天大家一整天的這個程序發言我們得不到這些問題的答案當然主席你一直企圖給大家答案大家就不想聽你的答案嘛不然我等一下要聽你的啦我聽你的"},{"start":32751.411,"end":32764.807,"text":"就是我建議啦,因為白沙開始出陣燈啦,白沙所有的地方會到,所以主席你要不要,你要不要就乾脆才是說我們今天就先休息,因為我們今天,我們沒辦法,我們沒辦法問嘛,我剛剛講,我今天一直在,"},{"start":32773.497,"end":32800.028,"text":"主席 你要第四輪嗎?你先講完啦我來回答好不好?我來回答我來回答我來回答好不好?好啦 好啦 回完了齁我們現在第三輪你發言完畢後我們還有第四輪 今天也登記完畢只有一位郭國偉委員嘛主席 我的意思是說我們就讓財政部我可以讓他們回答但是我要讓郭國偉發言完畢啊你不要登記你取消是不是主席 你發功了嘛 我的意思是說"},{"start":32800.928,"end":32823.141,"text":"主戰場是在13啦我會讓他們發言我會讓他們發言不是說郭文維必須的要不要再問好那你來劃掉啊你來劃掉那你先回去我們把這個程序好你來劃掉啊沒關係沒關係那劃掉劃掉沒關係沒有劃掉你來劃一下嘛因為他有登記我不能剝奪他的權利啊郭文維你要繼續發言嗎沒有啦主席"},{"start":32826.464,"end":32837.391,"text":"主席沒關係啦,就是說我們等一下還是第16,可是我要講的一個重點我會讓他們發言我會讓他們發言是是是,我會讓他們發言,等一下不是,我們不一定要本禮拜,等一下去讓他們發言沒關係各地方政府來,我們也要跟他要討論很多數據今天財政部都來了喔對啊好謝謝今天財政部來,但是他沒有辦法告訴我們我剛剛講的啊,這個汙染指標,重度汙染指標是什麼"},{"start":32855.382,"end":32859.025,"text":"我們現在只有很直白的印象,高雄從過去以來它就承載著台灣的重工業,所以它的空氣污染是相對嚴重的。這都是很直白的印象,可是我們沒有辦法拿到數字。"},{"start":32875.316,"end":32892.108,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":32892.268,"end":32893.348,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":32921.408,"end":32945.022,"text":"我先徵求大家一件事我們第四輪登記完就不要再做第五輪登記了好不好可以嗎?沒意義我們第四輪講完就不要做第五輪登記了已經講很多了也很充分了還有誰要登記?沒有了我們到第四輪登記結束我們就有六十幾位委員今天做會議詢問和誠心發言了好,接著我們就不再登記"},{"start":32946.603,"end":32967.829,"text":"跟各位報告跟我們委員會報告今天的會議詢問就已經有登記還要發言的就有60幾位這樣程序很重 總共有70幾位我想大家就不要再進行第5輪了好 那就這樣子接著我們這一輪我們請郭國文委員第4輪的"},{"start":32977.608,"end":32990.58,"text":"我看到主席笑眯眯,我當然就不想看剛剛我聆聽了剛剛幾位委員的高見他們同時講到一句話也就是所謂的中央請客地方買單這八個字"},{"start":32993.823,"end":33014.979,"text":"這個剛剛對照於我剛才提的所謂的長久以來中央的這個計劃型補助啊常態化的狀況是不是要下放給地方其實是一體兩面的這就是我之前一再強調的中央跟地方的這個府紀關係要如何形成要如何形成一個所謂的夥伴的關係"},{"start":33016.394,"end":33043.741,"text":"那我們提到啊所謂的這個城鄉發展計畫當中呢它不過是變了八次名稱每次都是中央的計畫然後補助給地方那我要問那這是中央在請客還是地方在請客啊很顯然不是地方請客嘛那或許有一些案例是屬於地方負擔的比較多這也就是中央跟地方大家要釐清清楚這些事權"},{"start":33044.841,"end":33069.978,"text":"在制度面上當中有討論的空間這也說為什麼更加印證了我們一再強調再次的呼籲、三次的懇求為什麼要把四權放在一起一個最關鍵的一個原因可是我們剛剛聽到主席所裁示的內容當中啊往往都只是找各部門代表來而已"},{"start":33070.939,"end":33086.734,"text":"其實也沒有真正回應我們說呢,要如何從事權、財權、財權、事權、事權、財權、人與事、事與人之間的一個關聯性當中來做一個整體性、通盤性的一個探討,沒有!"},{"start":33087.595,"end":33116.156,"text":"沒有的情況底下,背後隱藏一個目的跟規劃不外乎是要趕快的把這一個法條復足於足條討論但是我還是必須說這一個條文當中的內容其實真的是令人杞人一逗我們就直接來談內容當中按照國民黨的版本當中剛剛賴委員提到所謂的3000多億,老實講我沒有看到這個版本"},{"start":33117.168,"end":33137.564,"text":"是他自己說的,確實有傳聞,聯合報確實有報,但是版本內容還沒出來。黃珊珊委員的版本是2700億,賴委員的版本一下子是3208,也一下子又4028,一下子又5777,但是換算於明年的比例是6612,總共有4個數字之多。"},{"start":33140.866,"end":33165.215,"text":"讓人家眼花繚亂不知所措到底國民黨是哪個版本但是如果就國民黨的版本條文當中所出來的結果無外乎這修法當中有8個縣市的自有財源稅出比率居然高達100%高達100%包括台北市、宜蘭縣、苗栗縣、彰化縣、南投縣、基隆市、新竹市、金門市很巧"},{"start":33166.435,"end":33193.581,"text":"這全部 全部 全部講到金門你就站起來 麥 金門縣 金門市是縣金門縣 金明縣 謝謝你的執政 很巧 這都是南白執政的縣市這麼好 有夠厲害可是最低的部分呢 在六都當中呢 最少的是哪裡就是台南 就是台南高雄是第二低 縣市最低的是哪裡 是嘉義"},{"start":33195.373,"end":33219.65,"text":"還有彭胡就很巧的最高的部分都是藍白執政最低的部分呢全部是綠營執政真是巧妙的設計啊所以我要說的是說這些版本內容當中不是有杞人疑鬥的地方嗎我就在找一個縣市的這個比較來讓主席知道這個版本內容有多麼誇張"},{"start":33221.511,"end":33246.307,"text":"以台南市來說他現在人口數是高達186萬人彰化縣是123萬人以現行的資金分配配了結果修法之後呢台南呢只配到476億彰化呢配到510人口數多50萬的地方多63萬的地方居然啊還少了34億"},{"start":33248.868,"end":33275.411,"text":"這個真的很誇張欸這套數學是怎麼算的啊雖然我叫國文我不叫數學就結果來看我也覺得是不合理嘛不是嗎主席你有沒有到底看過你們未來的版本啊你不覺得很多難以說服外界的廢話嗎為什麼版本你還能夠推上台面呢為什麼版本還如此青睞呢你要想一想你要想一想"},{"start":33275.911,"end":33302.862,"text":"我要告訴你,你要想一想,這個版本只會破壞體制而已啦!你要不要登記第五輪,我先想一下沒關係。好,這個第四輪等一下,第四輪登記發言的我都已經發言完畢啦。那我們現在問問看有沒有人要登記第五輪。"},{"start":33313.11,"end":33314.191,"text":"有沒有委員要繼續登記發言?"},{"start":33336.011,"end":33360.944,"text":"這個齁,剛剛我們今天齁,這個會議詢問跟程序發言還有連上市齁,今天已經發言70,快70位委員了啦齁,我想大家可能那個,那本次會我們就做,我們就採釋說不要再登記什麼會議詢問跟這個程序發言啦齁,沒有意見了啦齁,無意喔,無意就不要再,對,等一下我要講嘛齁,無意喔齁,那剛剛已經宣布到晚上,那我們是不是休息讓大家吃晚餐,晚上再繼續回來開會齁,好,休息吃飯"},{"start":33370.35,"end":33372.091,"text":"現在休息吃晚餐晚上再回來齁你不是要問他們回來我會讓你問他們你不是要問嗎等一下晚上回來問嗎沒有晚上回來問沒關係晚上開到12點嘛等一下回來吃飯快點回來繼續問啊阿你不是要問嗎"},{"start":33401.255,"end":33410.866,"text":"不用啦今天應該一直開沒關係他們本來就應該知道數字好不好晚上吃完飯回來再繼續讓蔡委員再繼續問你不爭氣我也沒辦法"},{"start":40899.619,"end":40905.225,"text":"今天還不夠 繼續開 等一下等一下等官員回來我們等 叫官員回來吧 官員回來我們繼續開那個聯絡人呢 叫官員回來 他們還在示範是不是 那我們等他一下我們等 等官員回來"},{"start":41093.983,"end":41096.945,"text":"五點五十二分五點五十二分的時候我跟妳走到門口"},{"start":41113.876,"end":41132.171,"text":"我問你我請教你幾點回來開會你也不肯說我說所有的官員跟我們說立法委員都要等你然後你頭也不回就走了對不起你沒有正式宣布你完全沒有正式宣布所有的官員都在等你"},{"start":41134.872,"end":41153.138,"text":"你們去吊袋子看看吊袋子出來看吊袋子出來所有的人都在等你下午有宣告晚上有晚上繼續看沒有暫時宣告沒有暫時宣告沒有暫時宣告沒有暫時宣告沒有暫時宣告沒有暫時宣告沒有暫時宣告"},{"start":41166.786,"end":41191.859,"text":"早上有講、下午有講、下午也要講、下午有講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講"},{"start":41196.101,"end":41204.37,"text":"我有宣告!我有宣告!我有宣告!我有宣告!我有宣告!我有宣告!我有宣告!我有宣告!我有宣告!"},{"start":41211.178,"end":41238.675,"text":"那沒關係我們等他們嘛沒關係嘛你完全都沒有說沒關係我們等他們回來沒關係請問你有什麼要再等他們回來可以時間都不說頭也不合就只是一句話你要去吃飯叫我們留在這裡吃便當等你我沒有情理在這裡吃便當我沒有情理在這邊吃便當啊你又不是本委員會他現在早就不在了因為你沒有財政我沒有情理在這邊吃便當啊你要去哪裡吃飯我都沒有意見我們在這裡晚上我以後晚上要開到12點了"},{"start":41241.237,"end":41246.842,"text":"你去問施法人當主席的時候去修寫的時候不要宣布什麼時候回來你去問他之前的那你就回答我"},{"start":41256.21,"end":41277.587,"text":"我也在會議結尾,會議結尾是12點,我宣布是晚上12點,我有宣布,今天宣布3次,你去看一下,如果沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有"},{"start":41278.988,"end":41279.188,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":41299.419,"end":41320.599,"text":"什麼是我的?你們不要隨便對主席啊!摘張說你是主席!我有宣告!我還問你要不要講第五輪、第六輪?有沒有?對啊!你們都不講我也沒辦法,我們休息一下,等一下休息要回來繼續講嘛!我一直有講說要開到12點我現在回來沒有開始,我們現在只是在討論"},{"start":41321.892,"end":41344.963,"text":"因為官員都不在我們等官員好不好我們現在休息等官員嘛官員我要通知阿那我們不回來就不要開始是嗎他們如果不回來我只有我的方法喔沒有什麼什麼時候就要等官員阿官員不來我們就在這個可能公開發譴責說我們無故這樣消失阿沒有阿"},{"start":41345.723,"end":41371.156,"text":"莫名其妙是主席無故相失全部的官員在這裡等你是全部的官員在這裡等你一個人選飲吃大餐你現在說是官員不見太過分了吧是你自己把整個委員會拋下你自己把整個委員會拋下跑去吃大餐現在官員不見我們現在回來就要通知他們嗎"},{"start":41373.237,"end":41381.643,"text":"等你一個大小姐!等你一個大小姐!愛回來就回來,不回來不回來嗎?你把全部的官員當什麼?"},{"start":41383.905,"end":41392.928,"text":"我們中午也是有休息,我們今天開了一整天...陳委員你一個人這樣審議,你一個人這樣審議,全部的官員要派人家回來陳委員你派人家回來,我們等官員回來,我們今天開到12點啊,我們就等啊,大家繼續等,你們繼續等什麼東西?你剛剛說什麼?"},{"start":41409.616,"end":41431.374,"text":"我們現在沒有開始開會我們通知官員回來所以官員怎麼可能在那邊痴痴的等呢當主席你什麼時候回來你怎麼會不曉得你吃一頓飯什麼時間會不能講嗎表定是12點啊表定是12點啊12點我剛才有宣布你不在現場"},{"start":41433.106,"end":41448.536,"text":"我有宣布今天開到12點還問大家有沒有意見要講繼續講講到12點今天講了至少3次媒體記者都在媒體記者都在有沒有聽到我說到12點你們看錄影帶你們沒有正式處理時間嗎主秘在旁邊啊主秘你回答"},{"start":41457.881,"end":41472.191,"text":"總理你回答啊!他有暫時處理時間!好!我還說沒有意見,我們就開到12點還沒有,你們不是要繼續講啊?5點半!5點半!5點半還在插言好不好?第3輪第4輪還在講你知道嗎?5點半第4輪還在講欸!你都有上去講欸!5點半還在講啊!還在講欸!講完之後就被委員宣佈啊!你不要堵死,你就沒關係啦!"},{"start":41484.284,"end":41510.192,"text":"主秘在旁邊你剛剛就叫我問他他將近5點半會議時間的時候主席有處理時間說今天開會延長然後到12點請與他我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同�"},{"start":41518.276,"end":41523.639,"text":"他明明在啊!那你為什麼要說人家不在呢?當主席也有那麼大啊!"},{"start":41532.656,"end":41535.298,"text":"五點半的時候你們有正式宣布嗎?"},{"start":41560.165,"end":41576.454,"text":"你沒有正式宣布說要開到12點你就是這樣子你就是把他納入評論裡怎麼會是你最久了?我待了比你還久咧?吳秉瑞就是吳秉瑞現行犯吼在哪裡?現在在哪裡?"},{"start":41590.155,"end":41596.86,"text":"等到再等他,不缺不繼續開會時間的時間就剩了,所以就請麻煩十月休息時間,所有人"},{"start":41623.999,"end":41636.965,"text":"最多人、男生、女女欺負一個陳玉珍欺負官員好不好欺負官員阿丟臉阿丟臉阿丟臉阿還敢講吳志瑤他可以掉拍我嗎不可以"},{"start":41654.426,"end":41665.297,"text":"我今天開了一整天的會哦,我沒有飯,中間休息,我一起來聊天休息吃飯,我中午請大家休息吃飯,因為今天開了一整天從早上9點到下午,中午休息吃飯,中午才去休息吃飯"},{"start":41677.244,"end":41694.787,"text":"總統總統總統總統總統總統總統"},{"start":41711.493,"end":41719.224,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":42215.356,"end":42219.052,"text":"主席 現在開會人數已足 可以宣布開會嗎"},{"start":42221.618,"end":42245.523,"text":"主席,你剛剛不是說你們要請官員回來嗎?欸,等一下,那你黨團坐一下,說現在不用官員我們可以開會,我就開始開奇怪了,你請回到你的那裡,你有你的無線麥克風,會議時間開始了,可以開會嗎?大家都在這裡等你兩個多小時,你去吃完大餐回來,人數已夠你可以宣布開會,請回到您的開會"},{"start":42247.203,"end":42271.464,"text":"你可以現在等你兩個小時你可以宣布我們都在這裡等啊我們都在等你開會啊你現在要等著國民黨的委員你要繞人回來啊誰不知道你現在在等人要繞國民黨的委員回來又要強行表決通過啊陳玉珍就是現在在等人啊你在繞你們國民黨的人回來是嗎你現在請宣告開會啊"},{"start":42273.157,"end":42274.04,"text":"開會人數已足勤宣布正式恢復開會啊你人都已經回來了"},{"start":42279.888,"end":42308.156,"text":"現場已經抽過開會人數請宣布開會好嗎?我會尊重我們市議會委員的說法等一下我們就開會不用官員嗎?你們黨要不要寫一個意思來?官員也是你請走的官員也是你請走的官員是我請走的我現在請他們走全財委會的人都等你一個人開心離開就離開開心離開就回來你把所有委員在這裡等你回來大聲嗎?你現在可以開會你要代表民進黨才能說可以開會是嗎?"},{"start":42309.156,"end":42315.24,"text":"李昆彤委員認為人數到就可以開會好那你們可以寫一張給我他等一下不要有意見嘛"},{"start":42338.956,"end":42364.226,"text":"你們寫一張說沒有官員可以開會我們就開始啊你們寫一張說沒有官員可以開會我們就開始主席你不要亂了開會人數已足啊你哪一張給過你代表黨團寫一張說沒有人數可以開會主席你是會議的主席沒有官員可以嗎你是會議的主席可以嗎你是會議的主席所以我們是主體沒有官員可以開會喔好那如果你們在場都這樣我們就開始啊你們你確定可以開會"},{"start":42366.307,"end":42387.728,"text":"好,不用官員就對是不是?不用官員嗎?我叫他們,所以我等他們一下啊!可以開會喔!沒有,會議詢問剛剛已經做了5次了!大家說不要了!不是,會議詢問剛剛大家已經決定說都不再會詢問,都第五輪了啊!你們都不要啊!"},{"start":42390.209,"end":42403.964,"text":"這都是一次會我剛問說今天這個我說這個第1次會你們還要不要再做會議許願要不要再做程序花園你們都不要啊我有問你們我有問說大家還要不要大家都說不要"},{"start":42405.427,"end":42434.194,"text":"沒有啦,你先告訴我,如果沒官員開會我們就開會嗎?沒有官員可以開會嗎?可不可以開會?可以啦,過半數,過半數沒關係,最主要...所以沒有官員過半數就可以開會是不是?你確認一下,你們協商給我,不然等下說話不算話你們協商說沒有官員,沒關...不是,我今天慶福休業又錄影你們又不認...不是會啊會啊禮拜三都沒到,你怎麼知道我禮拜三不會讓你問你為什麼現在在預知禮拜三的事情我會讓你禮拜三問啊"},{"start":42435.254,"end":42453.026,"text":"我沒有改變阿你禮拜三一定要來問不要忘記齁我沒有說禮拜三不讓你問阿禮拜三都沒有到你怎麼會說我不讓你禮拜三問我說禮拜今天會開到12我離開的時候我說我說12點我一直在說12點我說會開到12點對所以我有我一直"},{"start":42467.211,"end":42484.078,"text":"來,你注意聽我覺得你們很...啊,那我可以回答你問題了齁我剛剛說我們現在有財政部,我們就先問財政部禮拜三有地方關,其他部分你們可以繼續問啊我有說不讓你們問嗎?對,那我有說禮拜三不讓你們問嗎?有的先問啊"},{"start":42488.826,"end":42502.751,"text":"全部的人等你一個人吃飽喝足回來,你還不開會?全部的人等你一個人吃飽喝足回來,你可以上工了嗎?你可以上工了嗎?你可以全部恢復開會,你可以上工了嗎?"},{"start":42513.355,"end":42540.673,"text":"那請國道主席去宣布重新開會啊 恢復開會啊我要宣布我要宣布 你們就坐下來是要等多久你吃飽喝足 廁所也上了 脾氣牢騷也發了 你還要怎麼樣啊你是要不要開會咧 是要還是不要 要大家就坐好好不好我們讓大家坐下來吼 要開會就坐下來吼好 坐下來 坐下來吼 大家坐下來好好地講嘛"},{"start":42543.447,"end":42549.569,"text":"本委員喔 等一下看一下等一下我們會帥沒關係等一下我來帥沒關係等一下大家先坐好好不好"},{"start":42625.307,"end":42651.965,"text":"最不尊重官員就是陳玉珍自己跑去吃大餐丟官員在現場等你沒有啦我們本來就可以了啦不行啦不行啦哪有本來就是都要發在這邊了啦尊重不是一切聽你的才是尊重我都還沒有開講他就一直在那邊插嘴這樣幹嘛對不對"},{"start":42656.395,"end":42658.736,"text":"每一位誰沒有?你們是不是可以一個給他?"},{"start":42681.806,"end":42698.095,"text":"不是,那我們先稍微協商一下,那個現在官員不在,我要問,你們讓我問一下嘛,不能私下先協商,不然開始又開始吵架,馬上就停了,又幹嘛呢?我先問你們,是不是官員不在,大家也覺得可以?"},{"start":42699.936,"end":42724.736,"text":"你們說話,剛剛都已經做過這些,今天早上就宣布不要了早上就問說,剛剛已經做結束,這些今天都已經做過了,會議詢問也好,程序發言也好都說今天不要,因為剛剛要問第五輪,結果都沒人要問啊第四輪嘛,你有登記第五輪的咧第五輪要登記,你們說要休息"},{"start":42725.436,"end":42738.082,"text":"阿你等的話你不是不登記嗎?沒有阿你們要休息我幹嘛要登記阿大家叫我不要講阿大家沒有沒有主席有問有問大家還要不要去發言還要不要那個會議詢問有這個都有會議這個都有錄影啦沒問題的"},{"start":42746.437,"end":42746.897,"text":"會議詢問會議詢問要哪一個官員回來"},{"start":42773.951,"end":42778.975,"text":"他們進來了嗎?我們等一下嗎?還是我們不用他們也可以開始?你們寫一張紙跟我轉個彎就可以開始"},{"start":42781.974,"end":42801.339,"text":"你們如果...因為你們不...我不是,但是你是一直沒有今天都在這裡因為我們今天真的主持了一天...我早上也有說要開到晚上12點啊!我下午也有說要開到12點!我下午也有說要開到晚上12點!我下午也有說要開到晚上12點!我下午也有說要開到晚上12點!我下午也有說要開到晚上12點!我下午也有說要開到晚上12點!我下午也有說要開到晚上12點!我下午也有說要開到晚上12點!我下午也有說要開到晚上12點!我下午也有說要開到晚上12點!我下午也有說要開到晚上12點!我下午也有說要開到晚上12點!我下午也有說要開到晚上12點!我下午也有說要開到晚上12點!我"},{"start":42811.022,"end":42832.977,"text":"不是你聽我講如果造成這種慣例以後我們立法院會被貶低官員不在還是說我們不用你們寫一張紙來給我我同意阿如果民進黨團都同意我們以後沒有官員我們自己開我也很願意阿我們又不願意喔我是要尊重大家的意見那我們黨黨幹部也在不是要你有在嘛你是不是覺得說我們官員可以開始那我們就可以那你是不是寫一張來"},{"start":42835.038,"end":42852.309,"text":"現在人數已經變了你就宣布開會宣布開會完之後再來講那些程序的問題好不好我們現在在做事前的會前會的協商我們要沒有什麼會前會阿沒有協商了阿當然要想因為沒有官員我怕這樣開始會造成我就說會議開始"},{"start":42853.8,"end":42876.889,"text":"對不起,如果貴黨團有給我一張紙,因為我早上也沒有,所以今天沒有嘛,就是沒有,所以馬上就找到官員一定要說話啦。不是,但是沒有官員是不是要開始開會呢?早上,這是哪一個部會?你已經回來那麼久了。啊其他部會呢?部長回來了嗎?請他們,請等一下,我們去請一下吧。"},{"start":42877.56,"end":42899.541,"text":"已經回來那麼久了他們要不要坐在這裡?他們是不是坐在這邊啊?給他們坐給他們坐給他們坐沒有開會那個不坐啊他坐好我們再開會你不要緊張嘛緊張什麼啊?誰緊張?是不是緊張啊?一點都不緊張你不要那麼緊張啊對不對?我都笑著跟你講話捏"},{"start":42901.587,"end":42929.413,"text":"到底要不要開會啊?要啊!你沒有等部長!欸!他嫌你們走得太慢啦!你們是不是開步一下?一下一下!要請!要坐這邊啦!因為今天是要主條要坐這邊啦!奇怪!你不是說要讓我問!那怎麼現在主條?我沒有不讓你問啊!誰告訴你主條不能問欸!誰說要主條啊?我啊!我是主席!今天本來鐵牌三天會讓你們做主條!我們是要等到禮拜三講完啊!誰說要主條啊?"},{"start":42932.649,"end":42933.215,"text":"誰說要主條啊?"},{"start":42934.966,"end":42951.871,"text":"什麼時候變主條了?今年三年會議就是一直往前推進,大家不用懷疑沒有主條的道理嘛已經說禮拜三要討論完再討論了,怎麼會還有主條呢?主條討論也是討論,主條可以每一條...我以下承認,我說主條可以討論很久禮拜三相關單位要來備詢討論完以後才會有所謂的法案的審查的...備詢早就過了,你還在睡覺啊沒有,那禮拜三...禮拜三...沒有,不是備詢,交換意見"},{"start":42964.494,"end":42969.427,"text":"要問他們,早上就講了很多了,現在可能只是薯條,哪有薯條的道理?"},{"start":42974.215,"end":43001.186,"text":"沒有竹條哪有竹條啊!禮拜三說要找相關單位來你還叫相關單位的版本要準備哪有什麼竹條的道理?沒錯啊!那這樣也是可以竹條的啊!對啊沒有準備啊!都沒有討論啊!法條都還沒有通過相關的法令今天討論那麼多!對不對?我們今天討論那麼多就是要討論所有其他的意見來考慮這個財法法的問題啊!這些都還沒有完成怎麼會進入竹條的道理呢?你根本是預設立場嘛!"},{"start":43004.448,"end":43020.643,"text":"你根本是預設立場哪有這種道理主席部長坐好可以開始我要會議詢問啊等一下我還沒宣布開始你急什麼我就等你啊等你開始啊你笑話完了沒對你請等一下我可以了嗎好官員都來了嗎主要的官員都來了嗎"},{"start":43026.09,"end":43054.148,"text":"我確認一下各單位的你們我先確認等一下開口我先確認一下你要確認也是要宣布開會才確認呢這個會前準備大家不用擔心會前準備什麼準備了一整天了你一整天都沒有在這裡是一整天都在這裡你沒有一整天在這裡喔你是主席待在這邊剛好而已阿不然你就不要當主席阿我會待在這裡不用擔心我會陪大家到12點大家不用擔心我們要開到12點大家不用擔心"},{"start":43055.189,"end":43058.691,"text":"各位大家都知道要開到12點喔齁"},{"start":43082.79,"end":43109.94,"text":"來自我們看一下,哪個部會?各位來自我們看一下,哪個部會?各位來自我們看一下,哪個部會?各位來自我們看一下,哪個部會?各位來自我們看一下,哪個部會?各位來自我們看一下,哪個部會?各位來自我們看一下,哪個部會?各位來自我們看一下,哪個部會?各位來自我們看一下,哪個部會?各位來自我們看一下,哪個部會?各位來自我們看一下,哪個部會?"},{"start":43111.715,"end":43113.056,"text":"還有一個在這裡。不好意思。"},{"start":43151.299,"end":43154.828,"text":"簽訂的《立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查"},{"start":43184.497,"end":43213.456,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":43221.044,"end":43226.39,"text":"早上就確認過出席了他在等國民黨的人回來"},{"start":43254.227,"end":43270.484,"text":"誰要求啊?你朝委開始就開始啦,誰要求?你這樣最重要啊,你把他吊著不管跑去吃起來燈你不是重要啦,你是不可或缺啦"},{"start":43278.213,"end":43279.035,"text":"喜來針喜來針"},{"start":43288.73,"end":43295.635,"text":"我們都不需要被你尊重嗎?我們坐在這裡等你這麼久了"},{"start":43317.632,"end":43342.853,"text":"要尊重啊!你剛剛說官員我要轉,還沒嘛!等一下,休息一下,不要急!休息一下,休息很久了!又不是不開!不要12點,你以前就要說上位好不好,12點,要開到12點了!趕快開!你們撐到12點,我才相信你!我可以撐到天亮啦!天亮不重要啦,這個今天的會只到12點!"},{"start":43345.267,"end":43374.391,"text":"好啦!你趕快啦!到底要不要開會啊?等他簽完好不好?裝模作樣裝什麼模作樣?簽完了嗎?慢慢來沒關係欸!慢慢來沒關係!這不就裝模作樣?你什麼都不要講,喊開會就行了裝模作樣沒有啦,上週聚焦的是郭委員,他不用看什麼是你"},{"start":43378.086,"end":43388.094,"text":"二、本院國民黨黨團擬具:「財政收支劃分法：繼續審查財政收支劃分法：繼續審查財政收支劃分法：繼續審查財政收支劃分法：繼續審查"},{"start":43412.534,"end":43437.568,"text":"會議詢問"},{"start":43438.991,"end":43446.944,"text":"我為什麼不能再問?我會議許願每次都可以問!然後我說休息之後就不能問!有這種規定喔!沒有這個決議啦!會議許願什麼時間都可以問啊!"},{"start":43452.15,"end":43475.945,"text":"什麼決議?五點五十五點五十不符合規定現在陳宇甄好緊張喔!全天下都在等國民黨的委員急扣回來!不是啦!不用擔心!全部人就在這裡等你!在這邊!我根本就不緊張好不好!五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五"},{"start":43476.786,"end":43483.353,"text":"我一個人就可以敵你們全部我一個人就可以宣佈開會啊宣佈開會是我的權利不是你的權利你聽懂沒有誰是主席主席"},{"start":43495.859,"end":43521.485,"text":"對!不要!我是主席!我宣布開會不是你宣布開會啊!我宣布開會不是你宣布開會啊!就是在等你宣布啊!就是在等你宣布啊!全天下的人在等你宣布開會啊!法定人數...我在等官員好不好?我在看誰還沒有來好不好?"},{"start":43523.234,"end":43542.164,"text":"官員我要看一下誰沒有來,我問他們是不是要來?你在等國民黨的立委來啦,不是在等官員啦!我在等立委,等一下!還在講什麼什麼一敢就立委,來啦來啦!開會啦!開會啦!開會啦!在等國民黨的立委來啦!你不是在等官員啦!我在幫你在演廣!開會啦!開會啦!來來來!開會啦!那就趕快開吧!李坤澄在吵什麼?開會就好,開會我們就開吵啦!"},{"start":43553.752,"end":43554.313,"text":"不要再牽拖了好不好"},{"start":43572.571,"end":43581.574,"text":"法治署的處長還沒有到,我再詢問部長說,他是不是,你請等一下吧,我再詢問他一下,說他要發展。我剛也沒有請他們回去,不然他們還要再跑一趟,我也沒辦法啊,對不對,這不是我的錯啊,好冤喔,不知道為什麼有人在亂下指令,太糟糕了。"},{"start":43595.197,"end":43618.055,"text":"你們去起來吧!我去跑下車!我也請大家去吃飯,我沒有叫大家不要吃飯好不好?好,這個,那個法制處處長是會過來嗎?還是沒辦法還是怎樣?我們知道一下嗎?聯絡一下我們要等到法制處長來訪問啦!法制處,今天我們要修法,財政部法制處很重要!沒有說官員有一個人沒有來我們台會嗎?"},{"start":43622.443,"end":43623.523,"text":"五點五十的會議還不見得有效"},{"start":43648.063,"end":43667.621,"text":"不好意思,我不是在5點50才宣布,我在之前就宣布,然後一直問你主委大家開刀沒有,你那自言自語,自言自語,啊我們現在調給你看啊你們現在調,你們現在調,你們現在調我們再繼續討論自言自語哪有經過我們的同意啊你就是自言自語"},{"start":43671.611,"end":43690.203,"text":"結果你們也沒有人敢跟陳玉珍賭啊!你們誰來跟陳玉珍賭啊!你們也是來賭啊!陳玉珍!我跟你賭!你要10萬票勒!你剛才講小公平!不然你就沒有政治的一個宣布!"},{"start":43691.664,"end":43700.748,"text":"每個地方有大的城市有小的城市啊你是欺負離島居民人掃就對了是不是大家比得票率好不好我得65.28你要不要開會啦你要比這個比什麼啦"},{"start":43710.532,"end":43726.326,"text":"你很幼稚喔!你很中二喔!是你們在比啊!趕快!趕快!我有事情要問部長,我趕快可以!我也要問,讓我問一下,這個,請問那個姚處長是要來不來,怎麼樣?他會來嗎?等一下喔!他要再等!"},{"start":43733.912,"end":43756.466,"text":"財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常"},{"start":43763.375,"end":43787.722,"text":"知道你跟我心有靈犀啦我覺得很不舒服我也是有這種感覺你知道嗎只是我不好意思講你吃完大蒜回來都半個小時了還很快開始"},{"start":43795.56,"end":43795.94,"text":"五點五十"},{"start":43817.695,"end":43831.683,"text":"大概要多久?我們知道一下,我們看要不要等?大概知道一下齁?稍微知道一下要不要等我?我看一下,如果10分鐘等一下,太久的話我一定要等10分鐘好了?10分鐘好了?沒有,我要看補給會銷,所以我應該已經拿到要看國民黨的委員來了沒有?10分鐘嗎?當成8點到今天就過了40分鐘嗎?不要讓人家開那個,大概處長要多久?"},{"start":43836.281,"end":43836.983,"text":"市長你可以代理嗎?"},{"start":43848.034,"end":43874.926,"text":"第一次有部長來的還要等處長來才能開會的法制數嘛我覺得法制數也蠻重要的因為它有想法然後大家已經等這麼久要開到12點不用急所以大家也不要這麼稍安勿躁齁因為我們剛剛也他就可能不知道去哪裡我們稍微等一下看多久我等他回報一下好不好看到底要不要等好不好回報一下齁法制數是你指派的欸你們大家可以還沒開始研看手上的資料可以看一下你吃飯的時候我們都看過了好很認真的鬧"},{"start":43880.794,"end":43881.114,"text":"主席"},{"start":43917.887,"end":43926.052,"text":"部長你就自己決定,如果你能夠處理就不用等到處長來了好不好這樣等等等是要等到哪個時候?"},{"start":43932.906,"end":43945.933,"text":"等你喔?還是等柯總召?等柯總召還等你啊?裝傻什麼?看起來天真無邪嗎?"},{"start":43975.888,"end":43991.611,"text":"他處長是要不要來啊?不是啊,不來,部長都來了,還要等一個處長我第一次遇到這種事情所以我等一下,我等一下是要問部長,我又不會去問處長"},{"start":43992.984,"end":44000.711,"text":"不會宣布什麼時候開會啊回來又不開那是怎樣啊?開會有那麼難喔?開會啦宣布開會那麼難喔?"},{"start":44026.263,"end":44026.763,"text":"我們在等什麼?"},{"start":44057.984,"end":44072.319,"text":"有要等處長來嗎?部長你自己決定就好啦,還要等處長來嗎?對不起,是我決定,主席是我決定,那你決定什麼?我一定要等處長,因為他沒有告訴我多久,如果他可以告訴我多久,我就可以知道多久主席是我,是我決定"},{"start":44076.601,"end":44105.721,"text":"因為這個財政部的法制處處長你剛剛休息的時候你也沒有宣布休息多久啊對啦所以我也沒有宣布開始大家也不用急我也不會趁你們離開的時候宣布開始不用擔心阿所以阿所以處長要多久來阿我不知道他沒有告訴我阿有人有聯絡處長嗎處長是要多久來阿如果他沒有聯絡上的話就不要來了阿有沒有人在聯絡有人在聯絡嗎阿沒有他如果"},{"start":44110.336,"end":44129.327,"text":"全部人要等一個處長回去也很奇怪捏我們可以先開始嗎?我們可以先開始嗎?主席就可以決定了啦,不要推給處長啦那個處長也是戴罪羔羊啦,你是在等你的國民黨立委啦國民黨立委當然更好,沒有來我也不是不能處理你們這些人,你以為你們很厲害嗎?來來來處理啊你不用擔心好不好?"},{"start":44130.888,"end":44140.535,"text":"我既然敢坐在這裡就是不怕各位我們就是民主時代多多討論嘛好不好不要急大家有耐性今天會開到12點你們不要也沒關係我們會繼續開好不好"},{"start":44148.097,"end":44169.944,"text":"你可能沒有注意我今天早上中午下午都不停的在講今天要開到晚上問大家有沒有意見尤其剛剛在那個想說第四輪第五輪的時候都有問我有問我問大家有沒有意見我還記得我說如果沒我以後要開到明年這樣就算了"},{"start":44170.604,"end":44193.145,"text":"對不起,我有問大家有沒有意義,我說沒有意義我們這樣,我有問,我有問,我肯定我有問,你可以去調出錄影帶,本席有問,我非常祝,因為我們有很好的醫事人員有跟我提醒,你們可以去調,你們也可以調啊,我可以調,你們調完再來啊,開始啊,如果你們覺得這開始是不合法,結休息是不合法,你們調錄影帶來給我看啊,可以調錄影帶過來,歡迎大家調錄影帶過來。"},{"start":44195.56,"end":44196.161,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":44218.398,"end":44241.465,"text":"我有問真的我還問說有沒有異議無異議我們就繼續開開到晚上12點我想其實在場的今天開會不是只有委員也不是只有官員還有包括這麼多媒體在這裡我一直在說今天要開到12點我不相信沒有人聽到吃午飯的時候講說我們今天要開到12點這樣也有算嗎下午也有說我下午也有說下午說我走到哪跑去買三明治當"},{"start":44242.245,"end":44266.983,"text":"三明治當典新他們也有說不是沒有說大家不要沒有耐心好不好要正式處理議會會議時間有我再說而且延長的時候我有問問的時候我又再問我這一次我這個延長開會到12點至少問了3次4次以上我也問吳秉瑞委員是你沒有在現場因為你不知道跑去哪裡我不知道我尊重你跑行程賴思寶也不在"},{"start":44269.464,"end":44293.362,"text":"羅明才也不在!袁昆龍也不在!你為什麼不點名?因為你現在回答我才回答你啊!如果他們現在問我也會回答他們啊!你一直在跟我講說我那個明明你沒在現場你一直要杜撰沒有的事情啊!對不對?他有看袋子我也...不然你拿來給我看一下啊!我都要跟你對賭你都不敢你只敢摔東西對不對?破壞公務我也沒有辦法對不對?我們都不會做破壞公務的事情啊!"},{"start":44294.352,"end":44322.344,"text":"你們的門都拆了,連那個釘子都釘進來了,他不敢破壞公務,連錢都不賠勒看到沒有?時間看到沒有?還有,後面還有嗎?阿你這矇矇死自己在那邊自言自語就算了阿沒有,我後面還有阿,後面還有阿你真的沒有問我嗎?後面還有哪一段?"},{"start":44324.656,"end":44351.076,"text":"沒有,我現在看到就是沒有啊後面哪有,就這樣子而已啊你不能說我找到你就說沒有啊,不然你去找啊,你不要叫你們自己的黨團去找不用找,我相信有啊,是你們覺得沒有啊所以他們隨便你相信有,我找...體證責任在你啦你就直接下來休息,真的啦,我沒騙你啦,你自己去看你把整段調出來啦整段啊,調給他看整段調給我啦調給你看你現在調我過去看一遍好啦你過去看反正你現在還沒有在開會你可以過去看啊我過去看好了"},{"start":44363.613,"end":44374.984,"text":"以後坐在主席台上面講早上8點半開、9點開始開會如果要開到明天早上12點、明天中午12點,自己在那邊自言自語就算了"},{"start":44380.396,"end":44390.304,"text":"你哪有問誰有沒有意義?大家有沒有意義這句話找出來?因為那時候這個議員很提醒我說要問要說要看到晚上"},{"start":44404.191,"end":44420.467,"text":"會議要結束的時間之前,要正式的處理議會的會議的時間你早上講的有算喔?中午講的有算喔?當然是會議到5點半是將近5點半的時候要處理會議時間啊"},{"start":44429.853,"end":44447.981,"text":"等21人等22人等22人等23人等24人等25人等26人等27人等28人等28人等29人等30人等30人等40人等40人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人"},{"start":44456.995,"end":44461.969,"text":"二、本院全體委員會第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查"},{"start":44468.061,"end":44487.169,"text":"因為他這裡面有提到財政收支劃分法調集、有什麼軍人區、發展委員但是因為水平分配方式都還沒有確定,所以我們希望這個地方能夠保留有羅明財政委員、徐宇甄委員、還有洪孟楷委員沒有處理會議時間啦"},{"start":44495.944,"end":44514.492,"text":"等23人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員"},{"start":44524.196,"end":44528.719,"text":"對阿正常就是讓每個都有發言的機會阿"},{"start":44551.431,"end":44557.897,"text":"其實他沒有輪到他不要用麥克風在下面講話我今天待的時間算長嘛我算很認真聽你們在講話的人問那一次吧林德武什麼時候來啦 這個比較實在啦你要不要我問問"},{"start":44570.367,"end":44576.493,"text":"你沒有問,你有講12點,但是你沒有問沒有沒有,沒有這一段了15分鐘了啦我知道他現在要問看原班很遠,沒有辦法從台中趕過來已經15分鐘了啦連新店的羅明才都叫不來,要叫台中的"},{"start":44592.791,"end":44603.903,"text":"財政委員、現前許多委員所強調,今天若要對資源分配進行討論,財權跟市權也應該同時進行。要讓大型財政委員會、國民黨、協會等工作的業務也應該要交由地方來執行。但地方政府也相反,也必須重新進行。"},{"start":44616.648,"end":44621.771,"text":"陳一貞又有另外一個人我看他的話就等誰來啊15分鐘了15分鐘了欸你要再進去不然等一下跑掉"},{"start":44640.844,"end":44666.644,"text":"蘇熙,你現在等處長還要等誰?你就講清楚好不好?等處長來就要開會了嗎?等處長來就要開會嗎?因為他叫我看我下午有沒有宣布我看一下?沒有,等處長來要...我覺得我是有嘛,如果真的沒有當然我不會找大家時間好不好?等處長來就要開會嗎?他說我看嘛,好不好?因為我就確認我有嘛,啊如果沒有我也不會擔心啊我說等處長來還是要等誰?還要等誰?啊你還要等誰?"},{"start":44668.595,"end":44675.499,"text":"好啦,那不用再看了啦!不用再看了啦!錯你也不會承認啦!不用再看了啦!"},{"start":44697.694,"end":44725.302,"text":"啊到底那個處長來了沒?你是要等處長還是要等羅明才?還是要等閻寬恆?還有等誰?林德福、賴世保、黃珊珊你要等誰你講清楚嘛好不好?你去吃大餐我們也等你"},{"start":44727.265,"end":44748.46,"text":"現在習萊登吃大餐回來都一個小時了吃飯也等你,不宣布開會時間也等你,現在也等你國家有你這種立委悲哀啊"},{"start":44754.656,"end":44767.763,"text":"你事實上在看這個還在看這個?真的啦,郭國文你都大概當他郭國文在高一文裡面講,郭明才在四方,只是你看一看就超像"},{"start":44784.286,"end":44798.013,"text":"已經17分鐘了耶!你不是說看幾分鐘決定要不要開嗎?那17分鐘可不可以開了?你的標準不是說還要看等多久嗎?17分鐘可以開了吧?他沒有回答我幾分鐘,我在等他回答我幾分鐘"},{"start":44799.772,"end":44821.506,"text":"剛剛說十幾分鐘啊!你說要等啊!現在十幾啦!自己來當師大餐回來都一個多小時了!全部的人等你一個欸!從五點多到現在!真的!三個小時了!我有宣布休息!你不休息我們對你至上最高的敬意!你要跟別人講幾點要回來啊!你要跟他講休息到什麼時候啊!對不起喔!主席的長選問一下中加評委!等一下!"},{"start":44828.632,"end":44836.971,"text":"不能叫喔!不能叫喔!不能叫喔!不大聲講他聽不到啦!選舉補助管什麼時候還啊!"},{"start":44847.709,"end":44853.294,"text":"我講話的時候這樣沒聽過我講話的時候這樣沒聽過我講話的時候這樣沒聽過我講話的時候這樣沒聽過我講話的時候這樣沒聽過我講話的時候這樣沒聽過"},{"start":44864.325,"end":44881.761,"text":"主席啊,要不要開會啊?主席啊,要不要開會啊?現在到底在等什麼啊?有同時來跟施大川把他們丟在這邊回來也已經一個多小時了,啊什麼時候要開會?"},{"start":44885.339,"end":44912.666,"text":"五委員啊!五委員啊!你東西都給人家砸壞了!你不要講其他的事情!顧左右緣啊!這個我們委員會權益啊!那你們不被黨賠了嗎?主席啊!主席啊!主席!主席可不可以坐好啊?上啦!來了啦!來了啦!好啦!組長來了啦!到底要不要開會?"},{"start":44919.916,"end":44941.206,"text":"不要再看了好不好!不要再裝了啦!不用再裝了啦!好了啦!好了啦!陳一貞!陳一貞!不用再看了啦!處長回來了!叫他口罩!處長回來了啊!證實一下!證實一下!不要再裝了啦!再裝就不像了啦!"},{"start":44943.474,"end":44969.316,"text":"這裝就不像了啦好了啦好了啦國文把那個收起來了啦不要再看那個沒有用了啦快開會主席快開會阿處長都到了你還不開會那個不用再看了啦處長沒有戴口罩了看看是不是這個是處長咧主席啊阿處長都來了啊"},{"start":44978.119,"end":44998.013,"text":"主席,你到底要不要宣布開會啊?處長都來了啊!各位委員齁,謝謝齁。啊那個,農業部這個咧?不是,啊這個咧?這位剛剛沒有去看啊。農業部沒有來嗎?來了來了。來,你看一下這個人去哪裡了?"},{"start":45000.31,"end":45021.436,"text":"還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰"},{"start":45028.097,"end":45043.507,"text":"二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋"},{"start":45045.97,"end":45064.275,"text":"二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人"},{"start":45065.495,"end":45070.598,"text":"歡迎林教育、林教育、林教育、林教育、林教育、林教育、林教育、"},{"start":45089.179,"end":45108.664,"text":"現在缺羅明才、委員顏寬恆、委員還要等誰啊?還要等誰來啊?主席,你要不要寫一張紙給你就寫給你啦,你要幹嘛?"},{"start":45111.525,"end":45113.707,"text":"沒有官員在場我們也可以繼續開會,那就寫沒關係啊"},{"start":45129.946,"end":45142.574,"text":"要等誰啊?講啊!講清楚啊!要等誰啊?農業部了解一下是怎麼回事啊?農業部!農業部!早上也說農業部要等誰啊?不是!農業部是農業部的喔?不是!農業部是農業部的喔?哪天要了解一下人會不會來在哪裡可以嗎?恢復一下你現在還沒問羅明才吧?羅明才是農業部的嗎?不是啊,我們上部的啦就剩兩個啊"},{"start":45158.098,"end":45164.101,"text":"最遠的台中延寬衡委員也到了農業部的延寬衡來了啊"},{"start":45181.528,"end":45194.698,"text":"論講話的李關晨早就來了,你幹嘛去講顏寬恆,莫名其妙!來了啊!來了啊!農業部顏寬恆來了啊!農業部顏寬恆來了啊!林丹福也來了啊!賴慈慧也來了啊!賴慈慧也來了啊!賴慈慧也來了啊!"},{"start":45205.231,"end":45227.741,"text":"我們今天要來玩一下,說什麼一、兩、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五"},{"start":45233.403,"end":45236.145,"text":"等一下,現在怎麼會詢問啊?我們有懲罰問題!我們不能懲罰問題的!我們有懲罰問題!懲罰問題!懲罰問題!懲罰問題!懲罰問題!懲罰問題!懲罰問題!懲罰問題!懲罰問題!懲罰問題!懲罰問題!懲罰問題!"},{"start":45263.393,"end":45285.118,"text":"你主持人說不公正,我陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢不能講嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回"},{"start":45289.667,"end":45303.519,"text":"委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員"},{"start":45314.217,"end":45329.442,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、九、十一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十一、二、三、四、五、六、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、"},{"start":45330.377,"end":45337.719,"text":"陳旭文你不可以不發言嗎?我們陳旭文你不能發言嗎?陳旭文你不可以發言嗎?你今天早上明明答應我們禮拜三可以詢問、可以執行,那你現在為什麼變這樣呢?"},{"start":45358.682,"end":45362.724,"text":"我們也需要大體討論!我們需要大體討論!我們程序問題不能發言嗎?程序問題不能發言嗎?"},{"start":45387.205,"end":45397.258,"text":"二、本院台灣民眾黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋"},{"start":45401.823,"end":45430.417,"text":"財政收支劃分法：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查《財政收支劃"},{"start":45438.007,"end":45453.01,"text":"二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋"},{"start":45466.423,"end":45480.718,"text":"等21人等22人等23人等24人等25人等26人等27人等28人等28人等29人等30人等31人等32人等34人等35人等36人等37人等38人等39人等40人等41人等42人等43人等44人等45人等46人等47人等48人等49人等50人等51人等52人等53人等54人等55人等56人等56人等57人等57人等58人等58人等59人等59人等59人等60人等60人等60人等60人等60人等60人等61人等61人等62人等63人等63人等64人等64人等65人等65人等67人等67人等68人等68人等67人等68人等68人等79人等79人等80人等80人等80人等80人等80人等90人等90"},{"start":45489.386,"end":45509.313,"text":"沒有人知道在宣讀什麼條文!沒有人知道在宣讀什麼條文!現在要改黑箱條文!要再改黑箱條文!要再宣讀!要再宣讀條文!要再黑箱宣讀條文!要再黑箱宣讀條文!"},{"start":45517.777,"end":45536.075,"text":"有意見!有意見!有意見!不要在這裡偷渡條文!沒有人知道現在討論的是什麼版本!沒有人知道現在在宣讀什麼條文!沒有人知道在討論什麼條文!"},{"start":45540.254,"end":45559.489,"text":"幾千億幾千億的預算沒有人知道在宣讀什麼條文可以這樣嗎幾千億的版本幾千億的預算有意見有意見"},{"start":45563.763,"end":45566.045,"text":"有意見﹖有意見﹖有意見﹖"},{"start":45583.157,"end":45603.166,"text":"幾千億的預算幾千億的預算幾千億的預算幾千億的預算幾千億的民脂民膏就這樣黑箱條文不要再宣告黑箱條文"},{"start":45611.834,"end":45615.658,"text":"請問第8條問題是什麼?沒有人知道是什麼條文,怎麼討論?"},{"start":45628.203,"end":45644.476,"text":"這是國家的預算!這是幾千億的民脂民膏!幾千億的民脂民膏!有意見!有意見!幾千億的民脂民膏!這樣子審查的!"},{"start":45645.797,"end":45672.089,"text":"幾千億的民主民國國家預算這樣搞的!不要搞黑社!有意見!有意見!有意見!不要弄我!不要弄我!我根本不知道你要怎麼弄我!最壞的事是什麼?會議無效!會議無效啦!"},{"start":45674.189,"end":45701.572,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、九、十一、九、十二、十三、十四、十三、十四、十四、十五、十五、十六、十六、十八、十八、十九、十九、十九、十九、十八、十九、十九、十八、十九、十八、十九、十八、十九、十八、十九、十八、十九、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、"},{"start":45702.702,"end":45709.107,"text":"沒有人知道陳玉珍現在宣讀的是什麼版本!幾千億的預算!幾千億的預算!就這樣惡搞!你們有沒有良心啊!你們有沒有良心啊!"},{"start":45721.686,"end":45724.389,"text":"幾千億的預算!幾千億的預算!陳宇珍你可以這樣亂搞!"},{"start":45735.926,"end":45762.238,"text":"幾千億的民脂民膏你知道你在宣讀什麼條文嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條"},{"start":45769.229,"end":45784.17,"text":"沒有人這樣亂搞的啦陳毓芬你是雙二手的命令要這樣亂搞把國家搞亂你在幹什麼啦國家預算是這樣亂搞的嗎幾千億的台灣開化法不能這樣弄"},{"start":45786.03,"end":45798.782,"text":"你去違反協調的內容,也違反立法的規則,投案法怎麼會作弄呢?請問問市法領導服,羅明才,你們是不是還想做什麼條文嗎?到底在記什麼東西啊?"},{"start":45804.026,"end":45817.638,"text":"陳玉珍今天一整個程序,大家都說要有地方政府,要有各部會,衛福部沒有來,你都同意禮拜三要傳各部會來問,你都同意,你到底在急什麼?國家財政可以亂搞嗎?"},{"start":45826.264,"end":45845.451,"text":"今天一整天大家都說程序花園、都亂講大家也都尊重你是主席喔尊重你是主席的公辦三個要來講、辦三個要給大家問電影政府要傳來、電影政府各部份都要來叫來問"},{"start":45847.601,"end":45869.274,"text":"幾天功課,你現在還擋彎腰?你是說到誰的秘密只有那麼急不可?是誰叫你這樣做?我們現在要再破壞個李昆蟲!李昆蟲!李昆蟲!李昆蟲!破壞國安!李昆蟲!李昆蟲!李昆蟲!李昆蟲!要調給吳靜悟!還不如要調來問!"},{"start":45876.46,"end":45901.959,"text":"大家都說要尊重每一個委員在發言你們哪一條自己都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道"},{"start":45902.159,"end":45904.522,"text":"主席,你很丟臉!主席,你很丟臉!"},{"start":45920.958,"end":45939.384,"text":"陳立正你這樣你不應該這樣做禮拜三禮拜三再來用了好啊你到底在舉什麼啦你在舉什麼啦禮拜三再來禮拜三大家好好討論你為什麼要這樣子呢陳立正不要亂搞"},{"start":45945.114,"end":45952.679,"text":"郭育晴你拉脖子!拉脖子!郭育晴!拉脖子!郭育晴!拉脖子!習慣性說謊欸這是"},{"start":45961.721,"end":45986.656,"text":"不要!你要保護他!保護他!保護他!他已經被...被...他早都已經受傷了!他早都已經受傷了!早上才答應我們要讓我們禮拜三可以好好問!為什麼你現在在這裏...你哪一坨都不知道!你這樣說謊啊!不丟金門人的臉嗎?等你可會等4個小時喔!大家在這兒這樣!啊你就說白衫還來開!"},{"start":45989.137,"end":46002.309,"text":"我都不用開會了,每個單位要傳來問啊!然後等全部都齊!每個單位要傳來問!阿你都是主席捏!阿主席這樣!說話不算話!"},{"start":46006.165,"end":46030.673,"text":"你們講的話沒有人相信啊!你講的話沒有人相信啊!你整天都說我們白衫!我們這裡的相關部會要調來蒙!我白衫!我白衫!我黃蒙尿!黃蒙尿也要來阻調!他的襯衫!不要讓他走光啊!不要讓他走光啊!陳立法院長真的會丟啦!丟臉啦!不要這樣啦!不要這樣啦!"},{"start":46036.028,"end":46058.364,"text":"這樣更小啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!"},{"start":46074.337,"end":46082.763,"text":"請問你剛剛宣讀的是哪一個版本?你剛剛宣讀通過保留的是哪幾條?哪些版本?沒有人知道?"},{"start":46083.564,"end":46100.801,"text":"你剛剛宣讀的是哪?這裡有22個版本。你宣讀通過保留是哪些條文、哪些版本?請問主席你知道你剛剛處理了什麼條文嗎?請問你處理的是民眾黨?"},{"start":46109.482,"end":46118.011,"text":"你剛剛22的版本你通過的是什麼條文?你保留的是什麼條文?你知道你在處理什麼條文嗎?你知道你在處理什麼條文嗎?"},{"start":46125.318,"end":46149.186,"text":"你知道你剛剛這樣亂搞一通到底是哪幾個版本被宣讀哪幾個條文被處理主席可以回答這個問題嗎?你可以說明一下你剛剛處理的條文內容是什麼嗎?"},{"start":46151.849,"end":46175.322,"text":"你剛剛處理的條文是什麼?你處理的條文是什麼?你處理的是政协裁的版本還是兵學章的版本?你處理的是民事局的版本還是內內容的版本?你處理的是民眾黨的版本還是國民黨的版本?"},{"start":46178.277,"end":46192.458,"text":"你到底處理的是誰的版本?總共有22個版本!22個版本!請問主席,你知道你處理的是哪一個版本第幾條嗎?"},{"start":46195.407,"end":46221.314,"text":"我們怎麼尊重主席啊?主席自己都是尊重別人,我覺得尊重他啊!陳怡琛都亂搞啦!不要亂搞了啦!不要再亂搞了啦!這不是啦!沒有人要吃掉了啦!不要亂搞了啦!你處理的是羅明才的版本、羅明才的版本!你到底給我五十多幾點啦!陳怡琛不要下秀線了啦!你處理的是鄭振銓的版本還是羅明才的版本?你處理的是誰的版本?"},{"start":46222.719,"end":46228.123,"text":"你處理的是誰的版本?我剛剛有人唸,你們都沒有人聽到啦!你告訴我你唸的條文通過的條款,條文是什麼?你降下惡例!"},{"start":46243.633,"end":46252.038,"text":"撞下惡例!告訴我!我們現在修法的版本!亂搞!陳昇深亂搞!陳昇深亂搞!陳昇深亂搞!陳昇深亂搞!陳昇深亂搞!"},{"start":46264.905,"end":46277.693,"text":"你可以說明嗎?你不要怕!你們連國民黨的委員都不說!你處理的是哪一個版本?你處理的是哪一個版本?你告訴我!你必須在大會說明!你處理的內容是什麼?哪一個版本內容是什麼?"},{"start":46289.78,"end":46306.817,"text":"哪一個版本?內容是什麼?請說明你是哪一個版本?你處理的是哪一個版本?各位同志請坐下。你今天早上明明說你被殺害,我們能夠實施20分鐘?今天早上講得不順序嗎?"},{"start":46313.32,"end":46326.426,"text":"今天早上說我們可以尋答的!說禮拜三可以尋答的!陳毓昇連通過的版本是什麼都不知道!他連通過的版本是哪一版都不知道!"},{"start":46331.006,"end":46345.539,"text":"陳一貞騙子、陳一貞騙子、陳一貞騙子、陳一貞騙子、陳一貞騙子、陳一貞騙子、陳一貞騙子、陳一貞騙子、陳一貞騙子、陳一貞騙子、陳一貞騙子陳一貞說謊、陳一貞說謊、陳一貞說謊、陳一貞說謊、陳一貞說謊、陳一貞說謊"},{"start":46356.749,"end":46364.433,"text":"陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞"},{"start":46388.402,"end":46409.418,"text":"兩位委員通過的是你的版本嗎?請問通過的是誰的版本?通過的是賴士寶的還是王宏威的?還是羅明才的還是鄭振前的?還是賴士寶的在場的國民黨委員提案委員沒有人知道通過的是誰的版本?"},{"start":46411.266,"end":46425.699,"text":"沒有人知道通過的是誰的版本!羅明才委員你知道你的版本有被通過嗎?請問他保留的是哪一個版本?保留是哪一個版本?無恥啊!騙人!有22個版本!無恥!說謊!無恥!說謊!騙人!說謊騙人!"},{"start":46438.357,"end":46464.273,"text":"內事保委員還有兩個版本啊!沒有人知道!沒有人知道!沒有人知道是怎麼討人!撂跑啦!陳玉珍撂跑啦!陳玉珍不要撂跑!陳玉珍不要撂跑!不要撂跑!陳玉珍!撂跑啦!不要撂跑!陳玉珍!撂跑啦!不要撂跑!騙子啊!說謊啊!騙子啊!騙子啊!連參與的感情都要騙啦!騙子啊!"},{"start":46468.325,"end":46474.016,"text":"蔡壹群的感情被欺騙了啦真的騙子啊剛剛在點水樓跟誰吃飯了騙了蔡壹群團團賺啦"},{"start":49142.43,"end":49143.394,"text":"、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等"},{"start":50053.308,"end":50053.829,"text":"哇,來一群來幹架的"},{"start":50085.851,"end":50086.212,"text":"休息5分鐘"},{"start":50101.048,"end":50107.37,"text":"主席不敢收下吳炳銳提出來的散會動議"},{"start":50129.359,"end":50147.445,"text":"主席、主席、不敢承認無比任委員提出來的散戶答應主席、主席、你不處理無比任委員提出來的散戶答應你為什麼不敢承認你剛剛有說開會?你為什麼不敢承認你剛剛有說開會?你為什麼不敢承認你剛剛有說開會?"},{"start":50159.428,"end":50180.265,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":50273.485,"end":50290.831,"text":"說你們要喊開會!優先處理散會動議不要再拖時間了!你為什麼不先處理?你為什麼不先?誰跟你講那個?"},{"start":50301.068,"end":50327.316,"text":"這是我的ABC,我也知道,我比你懂意是貴神,我做了20年的議員!還沒開始,還有1分53秒好不好,休息!對不起,我已經休息了!我已經休息了!大家要不要平和?阿官員咧?沒有官員怎麼那個?官員咧?我們還有1分多鐘喔?"},{"start":50328.783,"end":50335.733,"text":"我大會面對不用擔心我今天等下就要開到那個不用擔心我必定懂議事規則我跟你們講"},{"start":50337.165,"end":50356.698,"text":"我比你們懂!我當了20幾年的議員好不好!我比你們懂!我當了20年!你當幾年議員?你當幾年議員?你當幾年議員?我跟你差不多!沒做過的!沒做過議員啊!你沒做過!你做過幼稚園而已啊!你幼稚園喔!你好丟臉喔!不懂得會議規則請尊重主席!"},{"start":50361.636,"end":50385.557,"text":"官員都不在,到底是要怎麼開我會處理,你們不用擔心嘛尊重一下主席好不好處理商會東西我尊重你們搶了這麼多東西搶了這麼多東西還有吳秉瑞破壞了這個吳秉瑞把整個吳秉瑞破壞了這個東西吳秉瑞把這個破壞掉,大家有沒有看到吳秉瑞公務破壞到這麼厲害開到12點還這樣子"},{"start":50390.76,"end":50417.193,"text":"我有說禮拜三不給你們討論嗎?我說禮拜三讓大家繼續討論啊!我也說要開到12點啊!我沒有騙大家!我說禮拜三要繼續討論啊!有這麼多官員要過來好不好?好不好?要!禮拜三會討論!我會尊重你!禮拜三會討論!金門人臉怎麼樣不用了啦!因為你不是金門人啦齁!時間到就按百號!"},{"start":50421.121,"end":50440.586,"text":"好 休息時間結束了 可以處理了吧好 現在 等一下我講完現在繼續開會 休息喔 到禮拜三繼續 休息完全不顧議事規則 你為什麼不處理散會動議陳議員你不要走你為什麼不處理散會動議"},{"start":50451.213,"end":50451.453,"text":"處理三會動議!"},{"start":50469.825,"end":50471.166,"text":"主席,請處理散會動議。你為什麼不敢處理?"},{"start":50492.35,"end":50497.855,"text":"三位共議要優先處理!三位共議要優先處理!"},{"start":50520.486,"end":50535.693,"text":"二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}