{"error":false,"id":["162237"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":162237,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162237","日期":"2025-06-04","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-3-26-15","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":3,"會次":15,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-06-04T12:32:18+08:00","結束時間":"2025-06-04T12:44:16+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:58","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b9828c902bbec38dda6b069516374867620cee4d45e0249ca52278c2082ecc2dcd8fa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"12:32:18 - 12:44:16","會議時間":"2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長就「勞工退休金制度改革，含勞保、勞退執行現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.70596875,"end":2.6634687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.37096875,"end":29.190968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.27534375,"end":31.097843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.82346875,"end":32.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.12284375,"end":36.025343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.227843750000005,"end":40.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.81784375,"end":59.329718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.970968750000004,"end":62.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.03784375000001,"end":64.66221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.21909375,"end":65.67471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.94034375000001,"end":68.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.33221875000001,"end":71.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.95221875,"end":73.48784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.06159375,"end":79.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.00159375,"end":82.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.92096875,"end":87.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.09721875000001,"end":98.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.05409375,"end":95.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.35784375,"end":95.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.39159375000001,"end":95.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.00284375000001,"end":103.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.03596875000001,"end":103.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.74471875,"end":103.86284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.87971875000001,"end":105.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.27596875,"end":108.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.27971875,"end":110.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.62971875000001,"end":114.20721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.66284375000001,"end":125.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.59721875,"end":130.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.11596875,"end":131.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.44909375,"end":134.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.81159375000001,"end":135.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.97596875000002,"end":136.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.80284375000002,"end":146.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.45534375,"end":159.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.30971875,"end":166.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.08096875,"end":166.43534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.97534375,"end":169.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.43471875,"end":171.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.27409375000002,"end":178.26471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.93971875,"end":194.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.80221875,"end":196.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.68784375,"end":199.32471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.66221875000002,"end":201.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.29909375000003,"end":204.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.64034375,"end":210.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.73221875000002,"end":212.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.43221875,"end":215.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.52471875,"end":227.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.09659375,"end":229.58159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.34096875,"end":232.66971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.75409375,"end":233.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.57659375000003,"end":235.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.28096875000003,"end":238.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.97659375,"end":246.82784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.65471875000003,"end":257.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.69096875,"end":262.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.01096875,"end":265.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.40284375000005,"end":267.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.55034375,"end":268.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.16596875,"end":270.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.56659375000004,"end":272.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.30471875,"end":274.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.82346875,"end":275.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.97096875,"end":288.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.44159375000004,"end":291.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.20471875000004,"end":294.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.69784375,"end":297.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.85784375000003,"end":299.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.88284375,"end":302.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.43096875000003,"end":306.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.66221875,"end":308.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.61971875,"end":317.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.80409375,"end":333.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.97034375000004,"end":338.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.89346875,"end":351.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.04346875000005,"end":353.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.59159375,"end":360.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.20659375,"end":366.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.19721875000005,"end":370.92659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.09534375000004,"end":378.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.53284375000004,"end":380.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.70971875000004,"end":388.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.71284375000005,"end":390.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.67034375000003,"end":391.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.39159375,"end":398.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.63534375,"end":399.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.30596875000003,"end":402.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.14096875,"end":404.25471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.90409375,"end":407.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.32159375000003,"end":409.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.65471875000003,"end":410.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.42659375000005,"end":411.81471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.25346875,"end":414.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.03784375000004,"end":426.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.49596875000003,"end":431.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.05284375,"end":427.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.22971875,"end":430.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.99284375,"end":452.77034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.21159375,"end":437.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.67971875,"end":440.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.99971875000006,"end":444.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.78846875000005,"end":445.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.31034375,"end":459.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.75659375000004,"end":463.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.57471875000005,"end":462.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.03034375000004,"end":464.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.25784375,"end":466.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.41784375000003,"end":467.99159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.59909375,"end":469.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.11784375,"end":477.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.31909375000004,"end":481.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.31409375000004,"end":484.37721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.18721875000006,"end":486.41909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.22909375,"end":488.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.40596875000006,"end":490.28346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.90784375000004,"end":491.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.88221875000005,"end":496.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.00409375000004,"end":497.80971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.81409375000004,"end":497.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.80971875000006,"end":498.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.89409375,"end":505.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.62284375,"end":510.92159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.61346875000004,"end":514.2122187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.7647187499999,"end":518.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.02596875,"end":519.4097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.70471875,"end":522.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.52721875,"end":551.0165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":551.7590937500001,"end":559.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.84221875,"end":561.0403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.10346875,"end":563.0147187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.9765937500001,"end":564.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.2084687500001,"end":566.6428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.87909375,"end":567.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.24159375,"end":577.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.3415937500001,"end":577.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.6453437499999,"end":578.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.3203437500001,"end":578.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.4678437499999,"end":580.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.8178437500001,"end":582.1340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.6740937500001,"end":583.8215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.29409375,"end":584.6147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.85096875,"end":586.3528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.85909375,"end":590.8247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.2803437499999,"end":591.6684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.27596875,"end":597.8447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.3003437500001,"end":599.1440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.34659375,"end":608.7122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":609.4040937500001,"end":609.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":610.2647187499999,"end":612.4753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.7959687499999,"end":620.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.03534375,"end":628.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.2240937500001,"end":630.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":630.02534375,"end":630.0422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":630.0422187500001,"end":630.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":630.14346875,"end":638.9184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.3740937499999,"end":641.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":641.53409375,"end":655.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":655.42221875,"end":659.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":660.1809687500001,"end":665.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":666.2390937499999,"end":668.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":669.24284375,"end":690.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":691.2647187500002,"end":695.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":696.1753437500001,"end":697.3059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":697.50846875,"end":698.6897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":699.01034375,"end":700.3603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":700.7990937500001,"end":701.3728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":701.8959687500001,"end":702.9422187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":703.2122187500001,"end":705.0515937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":706.2665937500001,"end":711.9197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":712.15596875,"end":715.3115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":715.51409375,"end":718.9734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":717.8259687500001,"end":718.0959687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.731,"end":2.339,"text":"好 謝謝主席 主席請一下黃部長"},{"start":12.518,"end":30.558,"text":"部長我們有關勞工退休金制度的改革大概講了非常非常多年其實大概就是一直在原地踏步我今天從幾個面向跟部長做一些探討第一個就是"},{"start":33.291,"end":61.23,"text":"我們法定的勞保費率將在2027年達到法定上限也就是說勞保年金它自2002009年上路依勞保條例的規定實施第三年期大概每年調高0.5個百分點調到10%以後改成兩年調0.5個百分點一直到它的上限是13"},{"start":65.286,"end":86.642,"text":"那今年已經到達了12.5%那也就是說下一次所以我一開始才說2027年就會到達法定上限我先請問一下部長會不會提出修法版本確保勞保隊永續經營"},{"start":89.127,"end":110.075,"text":"那個委員確實現在費率每兩年提高0.5%因為剛剛委員是把舊保的那1%也算進去了那如果不算的話其實是每兩年會到12%所以目前確實在116年會達到上限那你們對於保險費率的提高有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":112.054,"end":125.318,"text":"確實針對費率的提高這個確實也或者是增加這個保費的負擔的問題其實的確現在各界還有不同的一些意見也尤其也涉及到老公的一些權益那我們我們確實還在審慎的思考好那就是保險費率的部分呢還在思考對"},{"start":137.1,"end":159.355,"text":"我用你們的精算報告來跟勞保局的2024年的勞保精算報告來幾個數字提供給部長就是說假如說要攤提過去未提存負債的平衡費率大概費率要高達31%假如不攤提也要17%"},{"start":167.04,"end":190.453,"text":"也就是說照你們的精算報告你們大概每幾年就會做一次勞保精算報告嗎?三年這幾年呢也花了一千三百萬左右在做精算報告那我今天沒有那麼多時間可以跟你探討精算報告可是針對精算報告提出來的"},{"start":191.454,"end":212.584,"text":"就是現行的費率假如不改勞保的洞就會越來越大那我剛才也說了2027年以至後年就會達到法定上限那現在勞動部的態度不明我希望勞動部能夠盡快把政策的方向"},{"start":214.345,"end":237.783,"text":"確定因為很多東西我覺得我們不應該一直留在停留在委員會討論或者是說社會共識我們部長溝通的觀念不管是多繳少領延後退沒有一項是可以凝聚到社會共識的"},{"start":240.831,"end":268.727,"text":"這個就是必須要靠執政者的魄力來面對你說社會共識這幾項不可能會有因為他一定會有人出來反對費率提高的部分勞動部還沒有定案請教一下"},{"start":270.236,"end":296.758,"text":"就是這幾年我先講就是勞工的退休生活特別是以戰後嬰兒潮這一輩的人的觀念他們在多數我不是說全部多數在職業生涯裡面他是沒有自己儲蓄投資的觀念的所以他們信任國家"},{"start":297.898,"end":308.58,"text":"他們覺得國家會給他特別是勞保年金推出以後他們信任國家會給他們一個在物質生活上的最低保障"},{"start":310.273,"end":338.588,"text":"所以為什麼我一直對勞保年金的問題非常的重視其實是因為我身邊真的有很多澎湖當然在地的勞工不多可是旅外多為什麼因為澎湖早期就生活困苦也沒就業機會外出沒有主產大概都是一輩子當勞工我很不希望看到像類似的人"},{"start":340.363,"end":359.657,"text":"工作為社會國家奉獻了一輩子結果他的晚年連最低的生活保障都沒有那假如說費率的部分你還沒有決定那延後退其實現在已經高齡化是全球已開發國家都會面臨的問題"},{"start":361.277,"end":376.888,"text":"高齡化伴隨的就是身體狀況其實也都保持的還可以所以有很多國家的年金會從延後退休年齡開始譬如說德國跟美國大概都已經調整到67歲連中國啊"},{"start":381.775,"end":403.96,"text":"今年也要延後退休年齡新加坡、英國、日本也都在年齡我想要請教一下部長有沒有可能我們現在當然可以透過勞資雙方協議這個是議定的這個不是法定的我現在講的是有沒有可能"},{"start":407.22,"end":429.027,"text":"勞動部的政策在法定的退休年齡做延後的政策跟姚委員說沒有的確這段時間其實也蠻多人提到這個延後退休的議題我們也看到有些國家其實已經開始了這個延後退的這個做法也都引起很大的反彈是是是"},{"start":433.089,"end":451.416,"text":"所以確實我們其實現在也在收集其實各方的意見所以我剛才其實延後退也有分強制的部分延後退還是自願性的部分延後退所以我想我們其實現在也在收集一些各方針對延後退看法的意見"},{"start":453.417,"end":474.423,"text":"再進行一些評估不過確實這個議題就像剛剛委員說的其實在社會上面各方看法都可能有很大的差距那這個調高費率未定延後退休也還要討論那我簡單因為時間的關係我簡單再問就是因為財政收支劃分法"},{"start":483.339,"end":489.975,"text":"的修正會不會影響到明年度政府的撥補"},{"start":493.921,"end":517.49,"text":"撥補勞保年金的虧損會不會應該說因為確實勞保的撥補它在我們整體的這個財快的制度裡面它並不屬於法定支出因為它不屬於法定支出的確是有可能會有影響的但是我們會盡力爭取我們會盡力爭取能夠維持跟過去至少是相近的水位部長"},{"start":523.796,"end":549.534,"text":"會影響的話就是洞會越來越大老闆的財務黑洞越來越大然後問題會一直留著當然可能在我們的任期內都不用面對到可是總有一天會面對所以我最後還是要跟勞動部建議也跟召委建議"},{"start":552.035,"end":566.015,"text":"勞保撥補之所以是非法定支出是因為勞保基金的裁員裡面我們沒有把政府撥補列入裁員之一這個第一點我們假如說"},{"start":569.295,"end":588.502,"text":"因為我個人是有提修法版本的所以我增加了勞保裁員的項目增加了政府撥補把政府撥補的責任法定化然後我也同時把"},{"start":593.276,"end":608.489,"text":"執政黨最不願意面對的政府負擔最終責任入法我覺得假如把這兩個把這個版本拿來討論趕快通過那就變成法定支出那以後"},{"start":610.485,"end":636.636,"text":"楊仁第一個我想對於大家在講到最終責任的入法我想我們是持開放的態度我們並沒有不願意面對其實是持開放的態度所以你們不會提版本可是委員的版本你們是競表贊同的我可以不可以競表尊重然後持開放的態度那我就也拜託召委就是趕快排因為我覺得"},{"start":639.537,"end":659.197,"text":"其實誰執政都不大可能讓勞保倒因為勞保涉及了台灣二分之一的人口的生活權益不可能讓他倒可是與其空口說白話不如把它明文化"},{"start":660.693,"end":681.637,"text":"與其一直對著全國的人民說有政府在勞保就不會倒那不如我們就把他入法這個是我的建議啦我相信還有很多相關的問題是我們在這個委員會會不斷討論的也希望勞動部這邊不要每一次"},{"start":688.598,"end":715.886,"text":"每一次對每一個面向你們都沒有堅定的政策決定我再重申任何一項改革像當初軍工教育連改我也不相信這個是社會大眾的攻勢只是說執政者願不願意下定決心去面對而已好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝楊偉 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":973,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（12時32分）好，謝謝主席。主席，請一下洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：楊委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長好。部長，有關勞工退休金制度的改革大概講了非常非常多年，其實就是一直在原地踏步啦！我今天從幾個面向跟部長做一些探討，第一個，我們的勞保費率將在2027年達到法定上限，也就是說，勞保年金自2009年上路，依勞保條例的規定，實施第三年起，每年調高0.5個百分點，調到10%以後，改成兩年調0.5個百分點，一直到它的上限是13%，今年已經到達了12.5%，也就是說下一次……所以我一開始才說2027年就會到達法定上限。我先請問一下部長，會不會提出修法版本確保勞保的永續經營？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，確實現在費率每兩年提高0.5%，因為剛剛委員是把就保那1%也算進去。"],["楊委員曜：對。"],["洪部長申翰：如果不算的話，其實是每兩年提高會到12%，所以目前確實在116年會達到上限。"],["楊委員曜：對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["楊委員曜：你們對於保險費率提高有沒有什麼想法？"],["洪部長申翰：針對費率的提高或者是增加保費負擔的問題，其實的確現在各界還有不同的一些意見，尤其也涉及到勞工的權益，我們確實還在審慎思考。"],["楊委員曜：好，保險費率的部分還在思考？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["楊委員曜：我提供你們勞保局2024年的勞保精算報告中的幾個數字給部長，假如要攤提過去未提存負債的平衡費率，費率大概必須要高達31%。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["楊委員曜：假如不攤提也要17%。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["楊委員曜：也就是說，照你們的精算報告，你們大概每幾年就會做一次勞保精算報告？"],["洪部長申翰：三年。"],["楊委員曜：這幾年也花了1,300萬左右在做精算報告，我今天沒有那麼多時間可以跟你探討精算報告，可是精算報告提出來的，現行費率假如不改，勞保的洞就會越來越大，我剛才也說2027年，也就是後年就會達到法定上限，現在勞動部的態度不明，我希望勞動部能夠儘快把政策方向確定。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["楊委員曜：因為我覺得很多東西不應該一直停留在委員會討論，或者是社會共識，我跟部長溝通一個觀念，不管是多繳、少領、延後退，沒有一項可以凝聚到社會共識的，這就是必須要靠執政者的魄力來面對，你說社會共識，這幾項不可能會有，因為一定會有人出來反對。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["楊委員曜：有關費率提高的部分，勞動部還沒有定案，請教一下，這幾年，我先講勞工的退休生活，特別是以戰後嬰兒潮這一輩人的觀念，我不是說全部，但他們多數在職業生涯裡面是沒有自己儲蓄投資的觀念，所以他們信任國家，他們覺得國家會給他，特別是勞保年金推出以後，他們信任國家會給他們一個在物質生活上的最低保障，所以為什麼我一直對勞保年金的問題非常重視，其實是因為我身邊真的有很多……當然澎湖在地的勞工不多，可是旅外多，為什麼？因為澎湖早期生活困苦，也沒就業機會，外出沒有祖產的人大概都是一輩子當勞工，我很不希望看到相類似的人為工作、為社會國家奉獻了一輩子，結果他的晚年連最低的生活保障都沒有。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["楊委員曜：假如費率的部分你還沒有決定……有關延後退，其實現在高齡化是全球已開發國家都會面臨的問題，高齡化伴隨著就是身體狀況也都保持的還可以，所以有很多國家的年金會從延後退休年齡開始，譬如德國跟美國大概都已經調整到67歲，連中國今年也要延後退休年齡，新加坡、英國、日本也都在研擬，我想要請教一下部長，我們現在當然可以透過勞資雙方協議，這個是議定的，不是法定的，我現在講的是，勞動部的政策有沒有可能在法定退休年齡做延後的政策？"],["洪部長申翰：跟楊委員說明，的確這段時間也蠻多人提到延後退休的議題，我們也看到有些國家其實已經開始了延後退的做法。"],["楊委員曜：也都引起很大的反彈，這個我幫部長講。"],["洪部長申翰：對，是、是、是，所以確實我們現在也在蒐集各方的意見，因為延後退也有分強制部分的延後退還，是自願性部分的延後退……"],["楊委員曜：所以我剛才講的就是議定嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：對，所以我們現在也在蒐集一些各方針對延後退的看法及意見，再來進行一些評估，不過這個議題確實就像剛剛委員說的，在社會上面，各方看法也可能有很大的差距。"],["楊委員曜：對，調高費率未定，延後退休也還要討論，因為時間的關係，我簡單再問，因為財政收支劃分法的修正，會不會影響到明年度政府撥補勞保年金的虧損？我們現在在概算……"],["洪部長申翰：應該是說，確實勞保的撥補在我們整體財會制度裡面並不屬於法定支出。"],["楊委員曜：對。"],["洪部長申翰：因為它不屬於法定支出，的確是有可能會有影響的，但是我們會盡力爭取，我們會盡力爭取能夠維持跟過去至少是相近的水位。"],["楊委員曜：部長，如果會影響的話，就是勞保的財務黑洞越來越大，然後問題會一直留著，當然可能在我們的任期內都不用面對，但總有一天會面對，所以我最後還是要跟勞動部建議，同時也跟召委建議，勞保撥補之所以為非法定支出，是因為在勞保基金的財源當中我們沒有把政府撥補列入財源之一，這是第一點。我個人是有提修法版本的，，我將勞保財源的項目增加了政府撥補，把政府撥補的責任法定化，同時我也把執政黨最不願意面對的政府負擔最終責任入法，我覺得把這個版本拿來討論並且趕快通過，那就變成法定支出，以後……"],["洪部長申翰：第一個，對於大家在講的最終責任入法，我們是持開放的態度，我們並沒有不願意面對，其實我們是持開放的態度。"],["楊委員曜：所以你們不會提版本，可是委員的版本你們是敬表贊同的，我可不可以這樣理解？"],["洪部長申翰：敬表尊重，然後持開放的態度。"],["楊委員曜：那我就拜託召委趕快排，其實誰執政都不大可能讓勞保倒，因為勞保涉及臺灣二分之一人口的生活權益，所以不可能讓它倒。與其空口說白話，不如把它明文化；與其一直對著全國人民說有政府在勞保就不會倒，不如我們就把它入法，這是我的建議。我相信還有很多相關問題是我們在這個委員會會不斷討論的，也希望勞動部不要每一次對每一個面向，你們都沒有堅定的政策決定。我再重申，任何一項改革，像當初軍公教年改，我也不相信這個是社會大眾的共識，只是執政者願不願意下定決心去面對而已。謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員，謝謝部長。","最後請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-15","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","麥玉珍","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","李坤城","楊曜","徐欣瑩","林德福","涂權吉"],"page_start":377,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「勞工退休金制度改革，含勞保、勞退執行現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00007"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}