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主席長好我問有關於這一次違法濫三地方地方補助款的事情啊狗明星說這是你的主意是不是我們有提供好幾個方案給行政院來做參考你們提供幾個方案給行政院三個方案三個方案三地方補助款是其中之一是不是是那其他兩個方案呢三債息什麼債息"},{"start":204.502,"end":233.661,"text":"然後第二個方案呢各三一半那那個其他兩個方案可以提供給立法院嗎因為本身在席我們當初跟財政部協調不是啦你就針對我的問題回答就好了其他兩個方案可以提供給立法院嗎因為接下來啦我沒有打算要在今天質詢的時候去跟你爭執合法不合法的問題啦非常多的學者專家都已經站出來講了啦就明顯的違法嘛"},{"start":235.01,"end":248.162,"text":"結果你們今天財政部也好主計總署的報告也好臉皮有夠厚的說合法合規你敢寫我還不敢看愛怎麼寫就怎麼寫說服不了一般的學者專家從政大財政系的陳國良教授黃耀輝教授每一個都出來罵"},{"start":262.998,"end":291.386,"text":"但我們現在的行政院左龍泰死豬不怕滾水燙我就是要這樣惡搞要不然你們要怎麼樣現在在台灣是耍流氓最大啦不要臉最大我講的就是左龍泰接下來政治責任的追究談清楚就好了你說你提供三個方案最後挑全部三地方補助款做這個決策的人是不是左龍泰"},{"start":292.714,"end":320.654,"text":"所以行政院來做決定行政院他沒有辦法做決定一定是人做決定其他兩個方案可不可以送來給立法院可以啊今天下班以前送來可以嗎就讓全體國人看看嘛我主席長提了什麼方案給卓榮泰最後是卓榮泰選的嘛不是你的鍋 我不會要你背不是你的鍋 我不會要你背"},{"start":321.755,"end":347.452,"text":"我是要把這個責任給釐清清楚來不好意思今天有那個新北市的代表來嗎是不是可以請新北市的代表副市長新北市 劉河南 劉副市長秘書長秘書長好我想秘書長今天來立法院列席應該對於地方的財政"},{"start":348.84,"end":369.585,"text":"非常的清楚啦一般補助款基本上在處理的是財政收支差額的部分嘛我說的沒有錯吧這次行政院違法科扣百分之二十五27點多我們總共刪除的平均是27點多新北市被刪了多少30.4億被刪除了30.4億對新北市造成什麼影響"},{"start":376.627,"end":392.86,"text":"跟委員報告這一次的一般性補助款的30.4億的部分主要有三項一個是社會福利一個是教育補助的經費還有一個是基本設施其中在社會福利的部分三減的16.12億占全部占整個補助的35.86%"},{"start":395.282,"end":421.612,"text":"教育的補助的部分7.6億減幅是21.83%基本設施的補助的經費的部分3.6.72億佔24.86%跟委員這邊補充報告單單這裡面在社會福利的部分我們最主要的是包括身心障礙者的生活的補助中低收入老人津貼等等還有弱勢兒童等等相關的補助單單弱勢族群的部分影響的人數就將高達10萬人"},{"start":424.133,"end":451.573,"text":"不包括還不包括基礎建設等等教育的這些相關的這些這些我們的那個市民的這些那個影響所以這一次的那個一般性補助館的刪減的部分確實對我們影響非常的大那市長非常的重視這個問題所以昨天呢要我跟邀集各局處開了這個會跟委員報告這是我開過最沉重的一次的會因為在這個會議當中同仁提出了一個問題他們告訴我說秘書長"},{"start":452.469,"end":480.586,"text":"我們國家編列預算國家建設不就是為了保障人民的生活生命安全等等這些基本需求刪除了這些項目我們已經不知道面對市民該如何去做說明這件事情那他們也想知道當時在刪除的時候那是不是有個優先數據中央可不可以告訴我們這怎麼處理因為我們實在不知道如何去處理這件事情也希望中央能夠盡快把一般性補助款的部分撥補給地方政府 謝謝好 謝謝西北市的代表"},{"start":481.947,"end":508.078,"text":"幾個基本的立場一定要講清楚啊現在我在PPT上面秀的是什麼113年中央政府總預算通案的決議跟114年中央政府總預算通案的決議你把前後兩個年度啊通案的決議拿出來比一比啊只要看得懂中文的人啊有基本識字能力的人啊就會知道在114年中央政府總預算裡面"},{"start":509.793,"end":532.628,"text":"我們有刪一塊錢的地方補助款嗎我跟大家報告一塊都沒有刪啦一塊都沒有刪啦113年的時候還刪了4%我為什麼114年在提這個案子的時候我地方補助款我一塊都不刪因為我知道地方需要嘛"},{"start":533.717,"end":560.432,"text":"目前中央地方的財政劃分收支制度套用我20年前在民進黨的台灣智庫所參加的會議就說要改啦只是民進黨拿到權力了以後不管是錢還是權全部一把抓結果什麼我們要求要刪的中央各機關及所屬"},{"start":562.211,"end":589.687,"text":"結果把600多億刪到地方的補助款去違法妄為啊今天早上還有民進黨的立委在那邊說那誰叫你們要通刪啊你們通刪就是不曉得要刪什麼東西所以才用通刪拜託民進黨的立委睜大眼睛看啊你們113年中央政府所預算有沒有通刪是不是通刪113年的時候你地方補助款有被苛扣嗎"},{"start":591.936,"end":619.326,"text":"來 請新北市那個113年的時候我們當時的一般性的補助款是101億那那個原則上在當時其實是沒有因為到今年是很特別產生這種錢所以嘛 你就看113年中央政府總預算最後一項是什麼如果經過總算沒有到達299億就要3到299億嘛完全按照以前的方式做我還特別把地方補助款"},{"start":620.663,"end":646.492,"text":"把它拿掉就清楚的告訴我們的行政院一塊都不准刪現在卓榮泰在裝著什麼裝文盲嗎看不識字嗎目無法紀啊提案單寫得這麼清楚了然後最後我只講一件事我們那個時候就擔心就擔心民進黨政府會動手腳財政收支劃分法30條我們還加了第三項"},{"start":647.793,"end":676.181,"text":"一般補助款不可以少於修正施行前預算邊列數去年夏天今年要給地方補助款不就合訂了嗎去年就合訂了今年修法生效以後膽子好大修法生效以後還找地方政府現在卓榮他要威脅立法院什麼給我追加預算現在他搞擄人兒署喔"},{"start":677.742,"end":689.675,"text":"把地方政府當落票我希望那個新北市的代表回去轉告侯友宜市長這件事情硬起來絕對要硬起來不可以讓卓榮泰這樣違法亂搞謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":864,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時56分）謝謝主席。開始詢答以前，先請教主席一個問題。我剛剛聽委員會裡面的助理跟我回報，說談好了，今天這個案子在委員會不處理，是嗎？"],["主席：這個是今天早上的時候……具體有沒有談好，等一下要請問一下賴委員，因為我是代他當主席。"],["黃委員國昌：我剛剛到主席臺詢問……"],["主席：等一下我會詢問一下再跟你回答。"],["黃委員國昌：是，主席不要介意，因為你現在是代主席，我知道也不是你答應這件事情的，不過因為你現在在主席的位子上，針對會議進行詢問這件事情，我只能夠請教你。因為我剛剛在前面跟代主席詢問這件事情的時候，旁邊的議事人員說，似乎是財委會兩個召委就這件事情已經談好了，今天這個案子不處理。確定有這件事嗎？"],["主席：對，黨團大概有協商，就是所有的委員……"],["黃委員國昌：誰跟誰協商？"],["主席：應該是黨團，應該不會只有召委協商，是不是？"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啊！我是台灣民眾黨黨團的召委，我從頭到尾不知道這件事啊！"],["主席：黃委員，這樣子……"],["黃委員國昌：今天要處理的是台灣民眾黨黨團提出來的案子耶，沒有問過台灣民眾黨黨團，兩個人私底下喬好，不處理喔？"],["主席：這樣子好嗎？您可以先質詢，我現在打電話請教一下相關的人員，好嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：可以！我先表明一個基本的立場，如果今天民進黨的立委藉由著霸占主席臺就可以為所欲為，就聽他們的意思不處理，這還像什麼國會啊！這麼多地方政府的代表來，大家為了卓榮泰的違法濫權都炸鍋了，我們聽到大家的心聲，急著趕快提出這個決議來，也同意付委審查，幾個民進黨的立委來鬧就不處理喔？現在臺灣是什麼立法院？耍流氓的最大嗎？耍流氓最大嗎？可以這樣搞喔？我清楚地表達台灣民眾黨黨團的立場，我絕對不贊成！民進黨委員占著主席臺，就可以用威脅的方式！"],["主席：這樣子，黃委員，我現在既然代主席，我跟您回答，因為現在是進行報告事項，這件事情的議案是討論事項，討論事項等一下如果法定人數足夠的時候，我們就處理，好嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：OK，好，謝謝。有請主計長。"],["主席：請陳主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：主計長好。有關於這一次違法濫刪地方補助款的事情，龔明鑫說這是你的主意，是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們有提過好幾個方案給行政院來做參考。"],["黃委員國昌：你們提供幾個方案給行政院？"],["陳主計長淑姿：3個方案。"],["黃委員國昌：3個方案，刪地方補助款是其中之一，是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["黃委員國昌：那其他兩個方案呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：刪債息。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼？"],["陳主計長淑姿：債息。"],["黃委員國昌：然後第二個方案呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：各刪一半。"],["黃委員國昌：那其他兩個方案可以提供給立法院嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為本身債息我們當初跟財政部協調……"],["黃委員國昌：不是，你就針對我的問題回答就好了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["黃委員國昌：其他兩個方案可以提供給立法院嗎？因為接下來我沒有打算要在今天質詢的時候去跟你爭執合法、不合法的問題，有非常多的學者專家都已經站出來講了，就是明顯的違法嘛！結果你們今天財政部也好、主計總處的報告也好，臉皮有夠厚的，竟然說合法合規，你敢寫，我還不敢看啦！愛怎麼寫就怎麼寫，說服不了一般的學者專家，像政大財政系的陳國樑教授、黃耀輝教授，每一個都出來罵，但我們現在的行政院長卓榮泰死豬不怕滾水燙，我就是要這樣惡搞，要不然你們要怎麼樣？現在在臺灣是耍流氓最大、不要臉最大，我講的就是卓榮泰！接下來政治責任的追究談清楚就好了，你說你提供三個方案，最後挑的是全部刪地方補助款，做這個決策的人是不是卓榮泰？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是行政院來做決定的。"],["黃委員國昌：行政院它沒有辦法做決定，一定是人做決定。其他兩個方案可不可以送來給立法院？"],["陳主計長淑姿：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：今天下班以前送來，可以嗎？就讓全體國人看看嘛！看主計長提了什麼方案給卓榮泰，最後是卓榮泰選的嘛！不是你的鍋，我不會要你背，不是你的鍋，我不會要你背，我只是要把這個責任給釐清清楚。不好意思，今天有新北市的代表來嗎？是不是可以請新北市的代表？"],["主席：請新北市邱秘書長。"],["邱秘書長敬斌：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：秘書長好，我想秘書長今天來立法院列席，你應該對於地方的財政非常的清楚，一般補助款基本上在處理的是財政收支差額的部分，我說的沒有錯吧？"],["邱秘書長敬斌：沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：這次行政院違法剋扣25%……"],["邱秘書長敬斌：百分之二十七點多，我們總共刪除的平均是百分之二十七點多。"],["黃委員國昌：新北市被刪了多少？是30.4億嗎？"],["邱秘書長敬斌：對，30.4億。"],["黃委員國昌：被刪除了30.4億？"],["邱秘書長敬斌：對。"],["黃委員國昌：對新北市造成什麼影響？"],["邱秘書長敬斌：跟委員報告，這一次一般性補助款30.4億的部分主要有三項，一個是社會福利，一個是教育補助的經費，還有一個是基本設施。其中在社會福利部分刪減的16.12億占整個補助的35.86%；教育補助的部分是7.6億，減幅是21.83%；基本設施補助經費的部分刪減6.72億，占24.86%。跟委員補充報告，在社會福利的部分，我們最主要是包括身心障礙者生活補助、中低收入老人津貼還有弱勢兒童等等相關的補助，單單弱勢族群的部分受影響的人數就高達10萬人，還不包括基礎建設、教育這些相關補助對我們市民的影響，所以這一次一般性補助款刪減的部分確實對我們的影響非常大，那市長非常的重視這個問題，所以昨天要我邀集各局處開了這個會，跟委員報告，這是我開過最沉重的一次會議，因為在這個會議中同仁提出了一個問題，他們告訴我：秘書長，我們國家編列預算做國家建設，不就是為了保障人民的生活、生命安全等等這些基本需求，刪除了這些項目，我們已經不知道面對市民該如何去說明這件事情。他們也想知道，當時在刪除的時候是不是有一個優先順序，中央可不可以告訴我們要怎麼處理？因為我們實在不知道如何去處理這件事情，也希望中央能夠儘快把一般性補助款的部分撥補給地方政府，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝新北市的代表，有幾個基本的立場一定要講清楚，現在我在PPT上面秀的是什麼？就是113年中央政府總預算通案的決議跟114年中央政府總預算通案的決議，你把前後兩個年度通案的決議拿出來比一比，只要是看得懂中文的人、有基本識字能力的人，就會知道在114年中央政府總預算裡面我們有刪一塊錢的地方補助款嗎？我跟大家報告，一塊都沒有刪，連一塊都沒有刪，在113年的時候還刪了4%，我為什麼在114年提這個案子的時候對地方補助款我一塊都不刪？因為我知道地方需要嘛！目前中央、地方的財政劃分收支制度，套用我20年前在民進黨的台灣智庫所參加的會議，就有說要改了，只是民進黨在拿到權力以後，不管是錢還是權，全部一把抓，結果是什麼？我們要求要刪的中央各機關及所屬，結果把六百多億刪到地方的補助款去，違法妄為啊！今天早上還有民進黨的立委在那邊說：誰叫你們要通刪？你們通刪就是不曉得要刪什麼東西，所以才用通刪。拜託民進黨的立委睜大眼睛看，你們113年的中央政府總預算有沒有通刪？是不是通刪？在113年的時候地方補助款有被剋扣嗎？來，請新北市說明。"],["邱秘書長敬斌：在113年的時候，我們當時的一般性補助款是101億，原則上在當時其實是沒有，因為在今年是很特別產生這種……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以你就看113年中央政府總預算最後一項是寫什麼？就是如果經過總刪沒有到達299億，就要刪到299億嘛！都完全按照以前的方式做，我還特別把地方補助款拿掉，就清楚的告訴我們的行政院一塊都不准刪。現在卓榮泰在裝什麼？是裝文盲嗎？是不識字嗎？目無法紀啊！提案單寫得這麼清楚了。","最後我只講一件事，我們那個時候就擔心民進黨政府會動手腳，在財政收支劃分法第三十條我們還加了第三項，就是一般補助款不可以少於修正施行前預算編列數，今年要給地方的補助款不是在去年夏天就核定了嗎？去年就核定了，在今年修法生效以後，膽子好大，修法生效以後還找地方政府！現在卓榮泰要威脅立法院什麼？就是給我追加預算，現在是在搞擄人勒贖喔？把地方政府當肉票喔？我希望新北市的代表回去轉告侯友宜市長，這件事情硬起來，絕對要硬起來，不可以讓卓榮泰這樣違法亂搞，謝謝。"],["邱秘書長敬斌：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員。","接著我們請羅明才委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":376,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-15","speakers":["賴士葆","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林德福","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","賴惠員","郭國文","李彥秀","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃國昌","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","許宇甄","張啓楷","葉元之","徐欣瑩","邱鎮軍","林思銘","蘇清泉","王美惠","陳冠廷"],"page_start":299,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團，有鑑於行政院主計總處行文各縣市政府，將中央編列給地方政府的一\n般性補助款自114年度5至12月份分配及撥付數全數改為未分配數，已嚴重違反立法院通案刪減、\n促進政府資源有效配置之決議精神。中央政府預算編列浮濫，原編列三兆一千億元，立法院通案\n刪減後仍有二兆九千億餘元之數，為中華民國史上最高之中央政府總預算，本院本於職責審議預\n算，以督促中央政府增進財務效能、減少不當經濟支出甚至浪費之目的，中央政府不思檢討如何\n有效節用分配資源，卻意圖慷地方政府之慨，緊縮一般性補助款補助事項，將直轄市、準用直轄\n市規定之縣及縣（市）基本財政收支差短與定額設算之教育、社會福利及基本設施等改為未分配\n數，此舉不僅違反原預算刪減提案之意旨，更將嚴重影響地方財政及運作，對地方長期建設造成\n劇烈衝擊。爰建請院會作成決議：「行政院主計總處應依立法院審議中華民國114年度中央政府\n總預算案通案刪減之決議意旨，由中央各機關及所屬編列之預算刪減調整，並立即將一般性補助\n款足額撥付予地方政府。」請公決案；二、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠\n雲、內政部劉部長世芳及法務部就「近十年中央政府依財政收支劃分法、地方制度法等地方政府\n之補助情形及對均衡地方經濟發展之成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}