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莊部長委員好主規定你2002年應該已經進入主計體系了嘛你知道2002年一樣有謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":60.593,"end":80.705,"text":"時間調回來調回來 我叫你時間調回來調回來啦 時間不過喔 不用擔心組長 2002年一樣要通山 要行政院自行調整多少錢 你曉得嗎300多億 800多億吧658億比你現在的636還多對不對那時候有沒有調整好"},{"start":89.929,"end":118.769,"text":"有三大地方補助款嗎對啊那時候中央政府的規模只有現在的大概一半耶那時候大概只有一兆五千億同樣是民進黨執政中度你沉水點啊平靜一點張靜雄要你自行調整要通商的幅度比你經濟還大為什麼沉水點行現在經濟不行"},{"start":119.878,"end":144.843,"text":"張建雄行 你中央派就不行以前主席黨行 現在為什麼你這不行咧有潛力可循啊 怎麼會自然來行咧民進黨政府是什麼 一代不如一代嗎現在還這樣對不起人民 還砍人民的錢砍的是社福 砍的是教育砍的是基礎建設 你們到底有沒有良心啊你們把人民放在心上嗎"},{"start":147.096,"end":164.128,"text":"一個是能力問題以前能夠做現在為什麼不能做第二更重要你有沒有心啊你不就是要幫人民服務的嗎怎麼去砍人民最直接的預算呢那很多是中低收入戶是長輩是小孩窮也去幫窮在教育啊你當主計長你不就是要負責把優先順序定好對不對就去砍那個最不該砍的你心裡有人民嗎"},{"start":179.535,"end":205.523,"text":"大部分就是正義裁員的一個部分那所以三項基本設施的部分是六度但是六度他本身裁員就比較好所以這個部分就是比較影響的比較少署計長跟行政院一個重責大任你最重要的你不就是施政院的優先順序嗎是對不對這會是你最該砍的嗎因為他影響你要怎麼調他影響的是順度當初立法院為什麼做這個決議"},{"start":207.063,"end":221.089,"text":"因為你的預算膨脹得太快今年都是創歷史新高而且一下子本來增加將近四千億耶你們本來編的是三兆一千多耶而且裡面一堆當費當費跟補當 甚至B&I租業訂來 輕重緩急 我問你你們在編預算之前你在主計單位這麼久你們在看審計部的決算嗎你有沒有在看審計部的決算書有嘛"},{"start":235.285,"end":261.421,"text":"每一年審計部的結算書有指出多少浪費跟不當的你不會拿來參考唷你要調636當然這個裡面不當跟浪費的一定比你現在講的地方的這個補助款更要砍嘛你不是輕重罰金哪個輕哪個重哪個急哪個緩你怎麼去砍地方的基礎建設社福跟教育呢來我來跟你討論你去翻一翻那個審計部的結算書"},{"start":264.778,"end":285.515,"text":"國發基金不只是腐爛一堆批案光是投資 聯合再生 民進黨的大金屬140億元一個投資案虧損140億元 怎麼代表起人民投資一個如心牛仔褲 不然能贏過嗎"},{"start":287.864,"end":311.776,"text":"撇了人民納稅錢 撇了一褲子 你們要看結算書你要先砍這一種啊 你怎麼會砍人民的錢呢報告委員 國化基金它是附屬單位預算 它不是總預算國化基金是腳褲的一個部份 你可以翻結算書嘛裡面看到哪些是不當的錢嘛 浪費的錢嘛就剛剛講國化基金的投資浪費 人民納稅名高之外"},{"start":316.857,"end":325.1,"text":"真的太讓人家生氣了我前面跟你講的前瞻運算一個前陣漁港要五毛給一千塊韓國瑜當高雄市長說要前陣漁港補助三千個一毛錢都不給陳吉茂上來可以給八十一億你中央怎麼會沒錢你中央錢多得有些些喔"},{"start":346.311,"end":351.373,"text":"都是圖利你們民進黨的利誘有圖利民進黨政府嘛為什麼不給一般的民眾呢最近說沒錢內政部要搞什麼改路 改什麼從政路還說沒錢 中央給你錢內政部不要改 不就錢就省下來了嗎是不是你告訴我他憑什麼現在吃肉多餓是不是"},{"start":373.424,"end":385.27,"text":"那麼多重要的事情不做,你還講說地方沒錢,你改入名,中央給你錢,去把那個錢扣回來啊搞什麼大罷免,至少發十二億,這不是民脂民膏嗎結算書裡面還檢討過一個很重要的,知不知道整個中央政府的那個基金跟財團法人,腐爛"},{"start":399.926,"end":429.064,"text":"領了一堆人民的納稅錢又不好好做事情我正在跟你說啊中央稀產會讓費我們人民的納稅錢至少讓費五億多超市雞蛋 買了雞蛋進來還沒進倉庫就壞掉了後來又銷毀發我們人民納稅錢五億多這個中央稀產會的董事長本來是無幾值欸您從前 他下台以後他可以一年領三百萬請去看一看"},{"start":430.557,"end":454.193,"text":"審計部的結算書或者超時雞蛋的這個弊案中央續產會中央政府有多少的財團法人多少基金你跟我說的他們憑什麼領的薪水比你多中央續產會當署訂的那三百萬還配車身體檢討嘛你六百三十六億我都已經說過了幾百億了國發基金的投資浪費前瞻預算裡面的這個浪費"},{"start":458.631,"end":481.476,"text":"剛剛講的改入名這個浪費整個中央的這個基金財團法人的改革你改革這個有掌聲啊人家不只不罵你還感謝你你做改革然後去砍人家最重要的事情他都是附屬單位預算不是總預算啊他的錢是從你這邊進來嘛你為什麼不會去省不會去改革因為一般附屬單位預算你跟外國內政部 等一下來 署長你專家你聽我說"},{"start":484.278,"end":505.147,"text":"第一個 剛講的內政部那個是不是這個錢等一下我還要跟你講還有咧事務發布拿了人民納稅錢去租那個台北市最貴的星光大樓 地厚這已經減少多久了我以前當記者的時候印象還很深刻啊政府花了多少錢浪費去租了很好的辦公室那時候的省記長"},{"start":507.362,"end":532.285,"text":"蘇振平站在這位王建憲坐在外面問他他說這個問題這麼嚴重 讓我們人民納稅警去蘇辦公室蘇振平說你給我一年時間我去處理 不行我切腹自殺以前的政務官是這樣幹的啦你看以前的省紀長 處紀長是這樣幫人民勘整每一分荷包 每一分錢 做改革嘛現在不是 你們擔當到哪裡去了我剛剛講的這是不是都是該改的"},{"start":533.482,"end":552.588,"text":"不管是本來從中央政府錢要出去或者是你從附屬的這個機構你錢要從人民的錢進去啊你要找636億很容易找回去翻審計部的結算書好不好好 更重要的更重要的我現在幫你找到錢了喔我今天已經跟你講了從以前2002年有心理陳水扁可以處理"},{"start":558.061,"end":582.11,"text":"張敬雄可以處理 現在的賴清德跟中瀾跟新任的主席長 陳主席長 你們就要有辦法處理有利可行 不要講自然來行第二個 我今天連錢都跟你講了 我連方法都跟你講了都在閒省計部的結算書還有很多立法委員找出來的 浪費的 不當的還有一些弊案的你砍了哲平才會感謝你嘛 結果現在不是 現在嚴重在什麼地方你現在砍了你怎麼 你默著良心講 自規定"},{"start":584.687,"end":605.424,"text":"你本來應該去做改革 沒有結果你現在砍的都是人民最重要的事情第一個你怎麼會想到砍社福預算你如果還在台南你怎麼去面對你去跟你的台南市的市民講說我的社福預算中低收入戶你的錢不要我要把你砍掉了老人家的錢小孩的錢教育的錢你要砍掉你怎麼去面對民眾"},{"start":607.335,"end":629.205,"text":"而且更重要的,當初立法院在審這個預算,來,我給你看一下,你對著你眼睛看到可以砍地方的補助款,我們當初立法院刪減的是什麼?中央政府及所屬啊,你對著你眼睛看到有地方補助款,明明砍的都是中央政府機關跟所屬啊,"},{"start":637.298,"end":663.915,"text":"你是不要理我 還是中邪的這不是嚴重違法嗎現在還把責任甩鍋給立法院大家都知道你們行政院砍的嘛而且你們砍的跟立法院要求又不一樣而且你們在審的過程裡面地方補助館一毛錢都沒有砍耶好 接下來看裁判法剛剛國參有特別跟你們講我們在修這個法的時候就是怕你們衝康嘛所以我們法律裡面明明定的清清楚楚"},{"start":665.393,"end":686.649,"text":"去年就已經三讀通過了餒你現在還在砍另外我問你一個專業的問題現在那麼多縣市的代表都在這邊你們什麼時候給他們地方補助款的一般補助款你什麼時候跟他講的你什麼時候合訂的七年八月對不對"},{"start":688.092,"end":716.753,"text":"去年8月你把補助款核定給人家包括嘉義市 新北市 台北市 彰化每個地方把它當成稅入對不對稅入還送到各個議會去審議員都通過了你現在可以砍喔所以你三大違法第一跟立法院的規定審三讀的時候也不一樣第二個違反財務法第三個你違反你當初跟整個地方政府約定的是不是這樣三大違法你砍的又是三大最不能砍的"},{"start":718.698,"end":745.924,"text":"社福 基礎建設 教育好啦 最後說個結論台灣民眾黨今天態度非常堅決喔因為人民的反應很熱烈各個縣市政府也要求馬上要把地方這個額度要補足今天我們已經提出提案了要求行政院你要遵守我們當初我們要求要通山的 自行調整的是在中央各機關及所屬所編列的預算裡面去調整不能夠去動到地方的"},{"start":746.806,"end":769.375,"text":"那你現在砍了 請立即補儲額還給地方你太客氣了 台積一年的預算才203億砍了17.3億 他要做什麼啊而且都跟這邊有關的 都要補儲好不好主席拜託我要要求一下喔 今天一定要處理我們民眾黨 絕對要求今天要處理喔今天不要以為民進黨來耍流氓喔 背個碗以後就沒有處理"},{"start":771.399,"end":784.377,"text":"這行政已經無法無天 違法亂紀了更不允許民進黨立委在這邊亂好的我們今天要求 今天一定要處理民眾黨的提案趕快把足額的地方補助款拖補給各個縣市政府 謝謝好 謝謝張委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1031,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（13時34分）謝謝主席，請主計長及財政部長。"],["主席：陳主計長、莊部長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：主計長，2002年你應該已經進入主計體系了嘛，你知道2002年一樣要通刪，要行政院自行調整多少錢，你曉得嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：八百多億吧，六百八……"],["張委員啓楷：658億，比現在的636億還多，對不對？那時候有沒有調整好？有刪到地方補助款嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：那時候黨團有協商。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，那時候中央政府的規模只有現在的大概一半，大概只有1兆5,000億，同樣是民進黨執政，總統是陳水扁啊，行政院長張俊雄，要自行調整、要通刪的幅度、金額比現在還大，為什麼陳水扁行，現在賴清德不行？張俊雄行，卓榮泰就不行？以前主計長行，現在為什麼你就不行呢？有前例可循啊，怎麼會窒礙難行呢？民進黨政府是怎麼樣，一代不如一代嗎？現在還這樣對不起人民，還砍人民的錢，砍的是社福、砍的是教育、砍的是基礎建設，你們到底有沒有良心啊？你有把人民放在心上嗎？一個是能力問題，以前能夠做，現在為什麼不能做？第二個更重要，你有沒有心啊？你不就是要幫人民服務的嗎？怎麼去砍人民最直接的預算呢？那很多是中低收入戶、是長輩、是小孩，窮也不能窮在教育啊！你當主計長，你不就是要負責把優先順序訂好，對不對？結果你砍了一個最不該砍的，你心裡有人民嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我跟委員報告一下，我們砍的大部分就是爭議財源的部分，所以三項基本設施的部分是六都，但是六都本身的財源就比較好，所以這個部分影響得比較少，所以我們……"],["張委員啓楷：主計長跟行政院的重責大任，最重要的不就是施政要有一個優先順序嗎？對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["張委員啓楷：這會是你最該砍的嗎？你要怎麼調？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為它影響的是歲入……"],["張委員啓楷：你們就調浪費的部分，當初立法院為什麼作這個決議？因為你的預算膨脹得太快，今年度是創歷史新高，而且一下子增加將近四千億耶，你們本來編的是三兆一千多耶！"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是刪減的都是一般業務費啊！影響到一般業務的進行。"],["張委員啓楷：而且都是一堆浪費，浪費跟不當，甚至弊案！主計長，我要問你輕重緩急，你們在編預算之前，你在主計單位這麼久，你們有在看審計部的決算嗎？你有沒有在看審計部的決算書？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有。"],["張委員啓楷：有嘛，每一年審計部的決算書有指示多少浪費跟不當的，你不會拿來參考嗎？你要調這636億的部分，當然這個裡面不當跟浪費的，一定比你現在講的地方補助款更要砍嘛！你要視輕重緩急，哪個輕、哪個重、哪個急、哪個緩？你怎麼會去砍地方的基礎建設、社福跟教育呢？來，我跟你討論，你去翻一翻審計部的決算書，國發基金不只是浮濫，一堆弊案！光是投資聯合再生、民進黨的大金主，140億耶，一個投資案虧損140億耶！怎麼對得起人民？投資一個如興牛仔褲賠兩億多，賠我們人民的納稅錢賠了一褲子，你有沒有看決算書？你要砍要先砍這種啊！你怎麼會砍人民的錢呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，國發基金是附屬單位預算，它不是總預算……"],["張委員啓楷：錢也是從這邊進去嘛，也是民脂民膏嘛，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，國發基金是繳庫的部分，是歲入的部分。"],["張委員啓楷：我再給你看，你有看決算書嘛，裡面有看到哪些是不當的錢、浪費的錢，所以我剛剛講國發基金的投資浪費人民的民脂民膏之外……","真的太讓人家生氣了，我上次跟你說的，前瞻預算，一個前鎮漁港要5毛給1,000塊，韓國瑜當高雄市長時要前鎮漁港的補助3,000億，一毛錢都不給，陳其邁上來可以給81億，中央怎麼會沒錢？中央錢多得「油洗洗」！都是圖利你們民進黨的綠友友、圖利民進黨的政府嘛，為什麼不給一般的民眾呢？最近說沒錢，內政部要搞什麼改路、改什麼中正路，還說沒錢的話中央給你錢，內政部不要改，錢不就省下來了嗎，是不是？你跟劉世芳說，她憑什麼……現在「食飽換枵」，是不是？那麼多重要事情不做，他還講說地方沒錢改路名，中央給你錢，去把那個錢扣回來啊！搞什麼大罷免，至少要花12億，這不是民脂民膏嗎？","審計部決算書裡面還檢討過一個很重要的，整個中央政府的基金跟財團法人浮濫領了一堆人民的納稅錢又不好好做事情，我上次就跟你說了，中央畜產會浪費我們人民的納稅錢至少浪費了五億多，超思買了雞蛋進來，還沒進倉庫就壞掉了，後來又銷毀、花我們人民納稅錢五億多，這個中央畜產會董事長本來是無給職，林聰賢下臺以後可以一年領300萬！請去看一看審計部的決算書或者超思雞蛋的這個弊案，就像中央畜產會，中央政府有多少的財團法人、多少基金，如同那天我跟你說的，他們憑什麼領的薪水比你多？中央畜產會董事長領了300萬還配車，總體檢討嘛！","關於你的636億，我剛剛已經說幾百億了，國發基金的投資浪費、前瞻預算裡面的浪費、剛剛講的改路名浪費、整個中央的基金與財團法人改革，你改革這個有掌聲啊，人民不只不罵你還感謝你，你不做改革然後去砍人民最重要的事情！"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，這部分都是附屬單位預算，不是總預算啦。"],["張委員啓楷：什麼？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這都是附屬單位預算，不是總預算。"],["張委員啓楷：對呀，這些錢是從你這邊進來嘛，你為什麼不會去審、不會去改革？剛剛提到內政部……"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，因為一般附屬單位預算……"],["張委員啓楷：等一下，主計長，你是專家你聽我說，第一個，剛剛講的內政部是不是這個錢？等一下我還要跟你講，還有呢！數發部拿我們人民納稅錢去租臺北市最貴的新光大樓──地后，這已經檢討多久了！我以前當記者的時候印象還很深刻，政府花了多少錢浪費地去租了很好的辦公室，那時候的審計長蘇振平站在你這個位子，時任立委的王建煊問他，他說這個問題這麼嚴重、浪費我們人民納稅錢去租辦公室，蘇振平說：你給我一年時間去處理，不行，我切腹自殺。以前的政務官是這樣幹的啦！你看以前的審計長、主計長是這樣幫人民看緊荷包、每一分錢，做改革嘛！現在不是，你們的擔當到哪裡去了？我剛剛講的是不是都是該改的？不管是本來要從中央政府出去的錢，或者你說的附屬機構，這些錢還是從人民的錢進去啊！你要找636億很容易找，回去翻審計部的決算書，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["張委員啓楷：更重要的，我現在幫你找到錢了，我今天已經跟你講了，從以前2002年有先例，陳水扁可以處理、張俊雄可以處理，現在的賴清德、卓榮泰跟新任的陳主計長就要有辦法處理，有例可循，不要講窒礙難行。","第二個，我今天連錢都跟你講了、我連方法都跟你講了，就是翻審計部的決算書，還有很多立法委員找出來浪費的、不當的、還有一些弊案，你砍了人民才會感謝你，結果現在不是，現在嚴重在什麼地方？你現在砍了……你摸著良心講，主計長，你本來應該去做改革，不但沒有，結果你現在砍的都是人民最重要的事情。第一個，你怎麼想到要砍社福預算？你如果還在臺南，你要怎麼去面對、怎麼去跟臺南市的市民講？你說：社福預算、中低收入戶的錢，我要把你砍掉了。老人家的錢、小孩的錢、教育的錢你要砍掉，你怎麼去面對民眾？","而且更重要的，當初立法院在審這個預算……來，我給你看一下，主計長，你看一下……"],["主席（羅委員明才代）：時間到。"],["張委員啓楷：你哪一隻眼睛看到可以砍地方的補助款？當初我們立法院刪減的是什麼？中央政府及所屬！你哪一隻眼睛看到地方補助款？明明砍的都是中央政府機關跟所屬，你是不識字還是「條直」？這不是嚴重違法嗎？現在還把責任甩鍋給立法院，那都是你們行政院砍的嘛，而且你們砍的跟立法院要求的又不一樣，而且在我們審的過程裡面，地方補助款一毛錢都沒有砍耶！","接下來看財劃法，剛剛國昌有特別跟你講……"],["主席：好，時間到。"],["張委員啓楷：我們在修這個法的時候就是怕你們「創空」嘛，所以我們的法律明明定得清清楚楚，去年就已經三讀通過了，你現在還在砍。","另外，我問你一個專業的問題，主計長，現在那麼多縣市的代表都在這邊，你們什麼時候給他們地方補助款的一般補助款，你什麼時候跟他們講的，你什麼時候核定了？去年8月，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["張委員啓楷：去年8月你把補助款核定給人家，包括嘉義市、新北市、臺北市、彰化縣，每個地方把它當成歲入，對不對？歲入還要送到各個議會去審，議會都通過了，結果你現在可以砍喔？所以你三大違法，第一個，跟立法院三讀的規定也不一樣；第二個，違反財劃法；第三個，你違反當初跟地方政府約定的，是不是這樣？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們在公文有註明。"],["張委員啓楷：三大違反，你砍的又是三大最不能砍的──社福、基礎建設、教育。","最後，我做個結論。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：台灣民眾黨今天的態度非常堅決，因為人民的反映很熱烈，各個縣市政府也要求要馬上把地方的額度補足，今天我們已經提出提案了，要求行政院要遵守我們當初的要求，要通刪、自行調整的是在中央各機關及所屬所編列的預算裡面去調整，不能夠去動到地方的，那你現在砍了，請立即補足額還給地方。像嘉義市一年的預算才203億，你砍了17.3億，他們要怎麼做事情？而且都是跟人民有關的，趕快補足，好不好？","拜託主席，我要求一下，今天一定要處理……"],["主席：好，我們尊重各位委員……"],["張委員啓楷：我們民眾黨要求今天一定要處理，今天不能因為民進黨來這裡耍流氓，杯葛完以後就沒有處理，行政院已經無法無天、違法亂紀了，更不允許民進黨立委來這邊亂！"],["主席：好的，因為時間到……"],["張委員啓楷：我們要求今天一定要處理民眾黨的提案，趕快把足額的地方補助款撥補給各個縣市政府，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張委員。","下一位質詢請陳玉珍陳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":376,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-15","speakers":["賴士葆","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林德福","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","賴惠員","郭國文","李彥秀","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃國昌","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","許宇甄","張啓楷","葉元之","徐欣瑩","邱鎮軍","林思銘","蘇清泉","王美惠","陳冠廷"],"page_start":299,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團，有鑑於行政院主計總處行文各縣市政府，將中央編列給地方政府的一\n般性補助款自114年度5至12月份分配及撥付數全數改為未分配數，已嚴重違反立法院通案刪減、\n促進政府資源有效配置之決議精神。中央政府預算編列浮濫，原編列三兆一千億元，立法院通案\n刪減後仍有二兆九千億餘元之數，為中華民國史上最高之中央政府總預算，本院本於職責審議預\n算，以督促中央政府增進財務效能、減少不當經濟支出甚至浪費之目的，中央政府不思檢討如何\n有效節用分配資源，卻意圖慷地方政府之慨，緊縮一般性補助款補助事項，將直轄市、準用直轄\n市規定之縣及縣（市）基本財政收支差短與定額設算之教育、社會福利及基本設施等改為未分配\n數，此舉不僅違反原預算刪減提案之意旨，更將嚴重影響地方財政及運作，對地方長期建設造成\n劇烈衝擊。爰建請院會作成決議：「行政院主計總處應依立法院審議中華民國114年度中央政府\n總預算案通案刪減之決議意旨，由中央各機關及所屬編列之預算刪減調整，並立即將一般性補助\n款足額撥付予地方政府。」請公決案；二、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠\n雲、內政部劉部長世芳及法務部就「近十年中央政府依財政收支劃分法、地方制度法等地方政府\n之補助情形及對均衡地方經濟發展之成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}