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謝謝主席我請我們台北市代表 現在是財政局局長嗎那另外就是主計長"},{"start":20.646,"end":46.284,"text":"委員好我先請教我們台北市財政局局長在刪除了台北市的一般補助款之後請問一下台北市的教育經費例如學校的水電費例如親韓學生的營養午餐費有沒有受到影響跟委員報告因為就教育的部分我們被刪了12"},{"start":48.847,"end":66.748,"text":"那在這個包括我們親韓學生的午餐費都可能會受到影響那另外老人的福利也受到很多的影響所以我們在內部討論的時候我們的社會局長教育局長都愁眉苦臉不知道要從何下手"},{"start":68.922,"end":97.004,"text":"我想請問一下清涵學生大概是多少人呢大概有1.6萬戶就是1.6萬戶的清涵學生的營養午餐受到影響然後老人的福利也會受到影響那老人福利主要是在哪一個部分是在包括老人的乘車補助收容安置長照以及包括我們健保自負額的補助等等都受到影響所以"},{"start":99.755,"end":123.832,"text":"按照現在中央這樣一刀砍下去雖然台北市是財政比較好一點因為我所知道像包含宜蘭跟苗栗恐怕都要舉債度日那即便是台北市的話我們其實倒楣的又是我們的孩子跟我們的長者我們過去一直在講就說窮不能窮教育 苦不能苦孩子"},{"start":124.312,"end":149.021,"text":"所以這次這樣砍下去對台北市確實包含我們的長者跟我們的孩子學校會受到影響所以我在這邊也應該呼叫一下我們台北市另外兩位立委吳思瑤委員和吳佩奕委員他們知不支持行政院這樣胡砍亂砍的一個方式然後直接影響到我們台北市的孩子們苦了我們尤其是親韓學生的營養午餐讓他們吃不飽"},{"start":153.143,"end":171.276,"text":"好 我們這些 如果今天這些大人們吃得飽飽的然後呢 那我們的孩子吃不飽這是不是我們民進黨台北市立委兩位立委 他們認為這是應該的好 那我想 我再請教一下我們主計長主計長那個Paul Poe 你準備一下"},{"start":178.51,"end":198.488,"text":"這個法定義務 法律義務支出明細表這是不是主計處提供的是是主計處提供的 對不對那請問在一百一四年度的法律義務支出明細表裡面有沒有對地方的一般補助款有沒有 有有金額多少兩千五百零一"},{"start":201.77,"end":216.334,"text":"兩千五百零一億 對不對那所以這個項目也是你們這次砍的項目嘛 對不對啊 那奇怪了既然是法律義務支出這個是你提供給立法院的嘛 對不對為什麼提供給立法院為什麼要把這個明信表提供給立法院"},{"start":224.011,"end":248.145,"text":"因為告訴我們立法院說這些不能刪嘛 對不對就是你送到立法院來審預算的時候 我們不能砍這些預算 對吧是不是原則上是希望盡量不要刪啦就是不能砍嘛 不然什麼叫做法律義務支出呢就是告訴你立法院這些你不要砍 你不能砍因為它都有相關的法律依據嘛 你們還有法律依據嘛 對不對"},{"start":249.686,"end":267.417,"text":"為什麼立法院不能砍你們行政院可以砍呢因為以往立法院審查還是有刪減的一個案例譬如說國債複息譬如說拆團法兩維權統治所以你們可以砍你自己說是法律義務之初然後你自己砍"},{"start":268.769,"end":284.253,"text":"不是因為我們盡量不要砍但是你不得不的時候你怎麼叫不得不為什麼不得不要去砍到法律因為你要砍636我們的確有問題是這樣子所以有什麼問題呢我們剛才也講請問一下我們刪除了636億裡面有11項這11項裡面有沒有對地方補助有沒有有"},{"start":295.697,"end":300.869,"text":"我們砍掉的636億裡面的桶山一共有11項這11項裡面哪一個是對地方補助"},{"start":304.295,"end":317.419,"text":"她是沒有 但是她說她另外刪減補足那不是就是在你那個所有統刪的項目裡面去統刪嗎統刪項目沒辦法這樣刪統刪項目沒辦法刪 特別費你沒辦法刪對不對請問一下統刪項目裡面有沒有特別費有沒有主管的特別費所以主管特別費沒有刪 沒有辦法刪"},{"start":326.921,"end":352.242,"text":"好 行政院的這些長官的特別費不能刪然後孩子的營養這個親韓學生的這個午餐 營養午餐可以刪你這告訴我這個意思嗎蛤 是不是長官的特別費不能刪好 那我請問一下我請問一下在這個桶山項目裡面有沒有包含公務車的有沒有公務車沒有"},{"start":356.872,"end":385.493,"text":"公務車沒有嗎它是設備級投資啊對啊 相關的設備啊相關的支出啊有沒有它有刪設備級投資但是沒有指定說要刪車輛對 但是包不包含公務車嘛包不包含嘛應該是包含包含好 所以你又告訴我這些行政院高官的公務車不能刪但是呢 親韓學生的營養午餐可以刪"},{"start":386.892,"end":388.335,"text":"因為你告訴我 你這些都不能刪嘛合理嗎"},{"start":391.96,"end":420.356,"text":"我們已經講過這個桶山的項目裡面就是在那十一項啊那十一項裡面沒有對地方的補助款那十一項裡面含有我剛講的包含高官的特資費包含公務車特資費公務車你不能砍你可以砍對地方補助款你可以砍掉對長者不管是敬老老人年金農保的補助或者是"},{"start":421.955,"end":429.461,"text":"親韓學生的這些營養午餐你告訴我就是這些啊 合理嗎還不要講什麼中正路了誒該生不生我問你嘛我問你 主席長主席長我問你當你這樣亂刪的時候刪到親韓學生的營養午餐你覺得你於心何忍"},{"start":450.063,"end":476.665,"text":"你覺得應該嗎如果是我們在處理我們不衛生青函學生的那個午餐啦可是這就是包含他的項目就在這裡面啊對 但是我們可以准結其他不必要的開支啊那請問為什麼你們都不准結其他你們必要的開支呢你們請問一下我們統生項目裡面有沒有包含媒體宣傳會有沒有媒體宣傳會 已經刪了百分之六十了還可不可以刪呢"},{"start":480.84,"end":495.428,"text":"不能刪 又已經刪了百分之六十了特別會也刪百分之六十了我問你喔 高官是不是很多都是做商務艙啊出國會也刪百分之六十了大陸也刪百分之八十了"},{"start":496.548,"end":514.045,"text":"高官坐商務艙不能刪高官的坐車不能刪高官的特製費不能刪但是親韓學生的營養午餐可以刪這就是你們今天亂砍地方補助款最後的結果可惡了真的很可惡"},{"start":515.424,"end":543.613,"text":"你說要用一些補救措施喔請你補救措施最應該要做的就是你們先把你們自己啊先好好重新檢視一下六百多億我不相信欸在中央將近三兆元裡面你說你六百多億你沒有辦法遵截一定要去砍一定要去摳住這些教育費或者社會福利的這些相關費用這個實在是太超過以上"},{"start":545.026,"end":545.538,"text":"謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1233,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（14時12分）謝謝主席。請臺北市代表──財政局局長，還有主計長。"],["主席：請臺北市的胡局長、陳主計長。"],["胡局長曉嵐：委員好。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：我先請教臺北市財政局局長，在刪除了臺北市的一般性補助款之後，請問一下臺北市的教育經費，例如學校的水電費、清寒學生的營養午餐費，有沒有受到影響？"],["胡局長曉嵐：跟委員報告，因為就教育的部分，我們被刪了12億，包括清寒學生的午餐費都可能會受到影響。另外，老人的福利也受到很多影響，所以我們在內部討論的時候，我們的社會局長、教育局長都愁眉苦臉，不知道要從何下手。"],["王委員鴻薇：我想請問一下，清寒學生大概是多少人？"],["胡局長曉嵐：大概有1.6萬名學生。"],["王委員鴻薇：就是有1.6萬名清寒學生的營養午餐費受到影響，然後老人的福利也會受到影響？"],["胡局長曉嵐：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：老人福利主要是在哪一個部分？"],["胡局長曉嵐：包括老人的乘車補助、收容安置、長照，以及健保自付額的補助等等，都受到影響。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以按照現在中央這樣一刀砍下去，雖然臺北市是財政比較好一點，但是就我所知道的，像宜蘭跟苗栗，恐怕都要舉債度日，即便是臺北市，其實倒楣的還是我們的孩子跟長者。我們過去一直在講，窮不能窮教育，苦不能苦孩子，所以這次這樣砍下去，對臺北市來說，包含我們的長者、我們的孩子跟學校，確實都會受到影響。","所以我在這邊也應該呼叫一下我們臺北市的另外兩位立委──吳思瑤委員和吳沛憶委員，問他們支不支持行政院這樣胡砍亂砍的方式，直接影響到我們臺北市的孩子們，苦了他們，尤其是清寒學生的營養午餐費，讓他們吃不飽。如果今天這些大人們吃得飽飽的，然後讓我們的孩子吃不飽，民進黨的兩位臺北市立委，他們是不是認為這是應該的？","我再請教一下主計長，這個法律義務支出明細表是不是主計總處提供的？是主計總處提供的，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：請問在114年度的法律義務支出明細表裡面，有沒有對地方的一般性補助款？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，金額多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：2,501億。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以這個項目也是你們這次砍的項目，對不對？奇怪了，既然是法律義務支出，這個是你提供給立法院的，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：為什麼提供給立法院？為什麼要把這個明細表提供給立法院？應該是要告訴我們立法院這些不能刪，對不對？就是你們送到立法院來審預算的時候，我們不能砍這些預算，對吧？是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上是希望儘量不要刪，不得不的時候我們也是只好刪。"],["王委員鴻薇：就是不能砍嘛，不然怎麼叫做法律義務支出，就是告訴立法院，這些你不要砍，你不能砍，因為它都有相關的法律依據，你們有法律依據，對不對？為什麼立法院不能砍，你們行政院可以砍？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為以往立法院審查還是有刪減的案例，譬如國債付息、財團法人威權統治時期這些。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你們可以砍？你們自己說是法律義務支出，然後你們自己砍？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，我們儘量不要砍，但是不得不的時候，我們沒有辦法，只好……"],["王委員鴻薇：什麼叫不得不？為什麼不得不時要去砍到法律義務支出？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為你們要砍636億，我們的確會有問題，是這樣子。"],["王委員鴻薇：有什麼問題呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個金額很龐大，我們要刪減是有它的困難。"],["王委員鴻薇：我們剛才也講了，請問一下，我們刪除的636億裡面有11項，這11項裡面有沒有對地方的補助？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有。"],["王委員鴻薇：我們砍掉的636億裡面，統刪的一共有11項，這11項裡面，哪一個是對地方的補助？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它是沒有……"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是它是說要另外刪減補助。"],["王委員鴻薇：那不就是在所有統刪的項目裡面去統刪嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：統刪項目沒辦法這樣刪。"],["王委員鴻薇：統刪項目沒辦法刪，特別費你沒辦法刪，對不對？請問一下，統刪項目裡面有沒有特別費？"],["陳主計長淑姿：特別費刪了，已經刪60%了。"],["王委員鴻薇：有沒有主管的特別費？所以主管的特別費沒有刪，沒有辦法刪？"],["陳主計長淑姿：已經刪60%了。"],["王委員鴻薇：行政院這些長官的特別費不能刪，然後清寒學生的營養午餐費可以刪，你告訴我的就是這個意思，是不是？長官的特別費不能刪……"],["陳主計長淑姿：包括出國旅費刪60%……"],["王委員鴻薇：我請問一下，在這個統刪項目裡面，有沒有包含公務車的？"],["陳主計長淑姿：公務車沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：公務車沒有嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它是設備及投資。"],["王委員鴻薇：對啊，相關的設備，相關的支出啊，有沒有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它有刪設備及投資，但是沒有指定說要刪車輛，設備及投資的項目很多。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，但是包不包含公務車？"],["陳主計長淑姿：應該是包含，但是有些單位自己決定。"],["王委員鴻薇：包含，好，所以你又告訴我，這些行政院高官的公務車不能刪，但是清寒學生的營養午餐費可以刪，因為你告訴我那些都不能刪，這樣合理嗎？我們已經講過，這個統刪的項目裡面，就是在那11項，那11項裡面沒有對地方的補助款，那11項裡面還有我剛剛講的，包含高官的特支費、公務車。特支費、公務車你不能砍，你可以砍對地方的補助款，你可以砍掉對長者的補助，不管是敬老、老人年金、農保的補助，或者是清寒學生的營養午餐費，你告訴我的就是這些啊！合理嗎？還不要講什麼中正路咧！該刪不刪！"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，這個部分影響的是歲入而不是歲出……"],["王委員鴻薇：主計長，那我問你……"],["陳主計長淑姿：歲出的刪減是縣市自己決定。"],["王委員鴻薇：當你這樣亂刪的時候，刪到清寒學生的營養午餐，你於心何忍？你覺得應該嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：如果是我們在處理，我們不會刪清寒學生的午餐啦……"],["王委員鴻薇：可是它的項目就包含在這裡面啊！是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，但是我們可以撙節其他不必要的一些支出來……"],["王委員鴻薇：不必要的開支？請問為什麼你們都不撙節其他不必要的開支呢？請問一下，我們統刪項目裡面有沒有包含媒體宣傳費？有沒有媒體宣傳費？"],["陳主計長淑姿：已經刪了60%了。"],["王委員鴻薇：還可不可以刪呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：再刪都不要做媒體宣傳了。"],["王委員鴻薇：不能刪！不能刪啦！對不對，不能刪啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為已經刪了60%了。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你在在告訴我們……"],["陳主計長淑姿：特別費也刪了60%了。"],["王委員鴻薇：包含這些高官的出國費，我問你，高官是不是很多都是坐商務艙啊？"],["陳主計長淑姿：出國費也刪60%了，到大陸的刪80%了。"],["王委員鴻薇：你的人是不是坐商務艙？高官坐商務艙不能刪、高官的座車不能刪、高官的特支費不能刪，但是清寒學生的營養午餐可以刪，這就是你們今天亂砍地方補助款最後的結果，可惡啦！真的很可惡！你說要有一些補救的措施，你最應該要做的補救措施就是先把你們自己好好重新檢視一下，我不相信六百多億欸！在中央將近三兆元裡面，你說六百多億沒有辦法撙節，一定要去砍，一定要扣住這些教育費或者社會福利這些相關費用，這個實在是太超過，以上。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員。","接著我們請徐欣瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":376,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-15","speakers":["賴士葆","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","李坤城","林德福","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王鴻薇","賴惠員","郭國文","李彥秀","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃國昌","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","許宇甄","張啓楷","葉元之","徐欣瑩","邱鎮軍","林思銘","蘇清泉","王美惠","陳冠廷"],"page_start":299,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團，有鑑於行政院主計總處行文各縣市政府，將中央編列給地方政府的一\n般性補助款自114年度5至12月份分配及撥付數全數改為未分配數，已嚴重違反立法院通案刪減、\n促進政府資源有效配置之決議精神。中央政府預算編列浮濫，原編列三兆一千億元，立法院通案\n刪減後仍有二兆九千億餘元之數，為中華民國史上最高之中央政府總預算，本院本於職責審議預\n算，以督促中央政府增進財務效能、減少不當經濟支出甚至浪費之目的，中央政府不思檢討如何\n有效節用分配資源，卻意圖慷地方政府之慨，緊縮一般性補助款補助事項，將直轄市、準用直轄\n市規定之縣及縣（市）基本財政收支差短與定額設算之教育、社會福利及基本設施等改為未分配\n數，此舉不僅違反原預算刪減提案之意旨，更將嚴重影響地方財政及運作，對地方長期建設造成\n劇烈衝擊。爰建請院會作成決議：「行政院主計總處應依立法院審議中華民國114年度中央政府\n總預算案通案刪減之決議意旨，由中央各機關及所屬編列之預算刪減調整，並立即將一般性補助\n款足額撥付予地方政府。」請公決案；二、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠\n雲、內政部劉部長世芳及法務部就「近十年中央政府依財政收支劃分法、地方制度法等地方政府\n之補助情形及對均衡地方經濟發展之成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145601_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}