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這個案子的時候外聘專家就已經提出了警告可是國發會充耳不聞然後又沒有保存發言的記錄作為事後苛責的一個基礎那我進經濟委員會以來的時候坦白說我有注意到另外一個個案就兆元案"},{"start":1821.661,"end":1843.87,"text":"趙遠按之,國發基金從第一次政策評估到會議通過決定投資只花了三個月的時間三個月之後投資了兩億零四百九十六萬進去之後有要求我們要有一席的董事跟一席獨董結果趙遠拿了錢之後什麼都沒有做拖了一年多之後才讓董事進駐同時在進駐的同時還宣布了減資57.97%"},{"start":1849.493,"end":1855.691,"text":"所以等於是拿了國發基金的錢進去之後呢國發基金什麼都還沒有做就已經損失掉了百分之"},{"start":1858.084,"end":1881.387,"text":"將近50%左右的一個錢那麼在兩年之後再次減資50.05%就投資國家基金投資了三年之後呢遇到兩次減資就直接虧準了80%然後1.6億的公帑就這樣不見那麼在這裡面的時候我就發現我們在基金委員會當中我們曾經要求拿到一些當時這省政案的一些細部資料那其實也沒有辦法取得"},{"start":1882.608,"end":1905.319,"text":"當時只是說有一個體制很好的大公司環球金他也投入了環球金投入跟我們國發基金投入是不是就是一樣的一個一比一的條件就可以直接去做我們不曉得重點是我後來再發現國發會在長期虧損的列管表當中的時候趙遠他竟然已經變成了一個正常戶我們虧損了80%之後然後變成正常戶為什麼變正常戶是因為"},{"start":1909.421,"end":1935.716,"text":"環球金把它併購了那這樣子莫名其妙走下來之後我們就損失了這麼多錢然後感覺好像就是也沒有太多的一個苛責的情況那我們希望就是國發會、國發基金對於整個投資的一個部分都能夠有更好的一個performance那當然就是我們知道國發基金他某一個部分有創投的概念在這裡頭可是這過程當中不能說他是創投"},{"start":1936.696,"end":1960.871,"text":"所以風險就沒有辦法去控管我覺得這是不對的所以對於今天我們民眾黨這邊提出希望成立國發基金的不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會那本席這邊是強力的一個支持的以上謝謝好 非常感謝鄭正前委員那接下來我們是不是請我們民主進步黨的黨團的幹部蔡宇宜蔡委員"},{"start":1962.142,"end":1979.958,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們今天在處理這個針對國發基金的這個調查委員會那我們知道立法院來成立調查委員會那從4至729號以及最近的憲判之第9號"},{"start":1981.039,"end":2009.636,"text":"基本上都講到了說他主要要針對跟立法院行使法律案或預算案的特定議案有重大關聯的事項當然民眾黨提案有他列舉的一個關聯的方向但是主要是說因為宪判是第九號後未來這樣的調查委員會是由院會來成立那是宪判是第九號後"},{"start":2010.416,"end":2029.092,"text":"那這大概是一個制度上的一個改變因為過去是由委員會來成立這個調查委員會所以我們的具體建議是希望可以由韓國瑜院長那秘書長先來是不是跟大家溝通未來這樣的調查委員會他所行使"},{"start":2029.412,"end":2050.741,"text":"他所成立的我們未來的成立的形式或者是未來這樣的委員會他如何運作以及他的內部的成員的一些分配這個我想這個可能有需要以院長然後來說院會層級的調查委員會要如何來運作那所以我們具體是說是不是這部分"},{"start":2051.941,"end":2068.035,"text":"是不是有待由我們韓院長再來協商那之後再來討論我們未來立法院所成立的這個調查委員會因為這個是第一個所以我想是不是這部分我們還是先先去如同我剛剛所說的好謝謝"},{"start":2069.315,"end":2087.111,"text":"好那個所以民主進步黨黨團蔡委員的立場是說目前沒有贊成也沒有反對主要的意思是希望有韓國院長來召集協商是嗎沒有錯因為調查委員會的部分是要他是屬於院會層級的所以他未來他的整個"},{"start":2087.791,"end":2108.076,"text":"成立的條件是怎樣所以在還沒有這個院長說明這個調查委員會的時候基本上我們是反對今天的這樣要今天就要來協商然後要來成立這樣的調查委員會基本上我主持協商我的立場都跟以前一樣"},{"start":2109.176,"end":2128.05,"text":"雖然對這件事情我自己有非常強烈的意見跟看法但在主席的位置上我把自己強烈的意見跟看法都保留在自己心中我不太適合在主席的位置上面做太強烈的宣告那只不過說跟這個協商有關係的事項還是要跟大家報告目前"},{"start":2129.051,"end":2142.633,"text":"由台灣民眾黨黨團所成立的這個國發基金的調查委員會的確就是在院會的層級下面的確就是在院會的層級下面我們要設這個調查委員會所以這個是院會層級沒有問題"},{"start":2144.255,"end":2160.863,"text":"那第二個部分今天之所以會召集協商其實也不是我們吃飽太閒沒有事要找事做因為這個就是經由院會的決議交由台灣民眾黨黨團來負責召集協商那既然是院會的決議"},{"start":2162.083,"end":2184.282,"text":"那我就要執行院會的決議所以今天也非常感謝三個黨團的代表都派了代表來出席這個協商那當然三個黨團的代表輪流都發言過了但今天還有其他的委員好像也很關心來參與那我是不是先請教一下其他委員是不是有想要發言表達一些意見的"},{"start":2186.211,"end":2202.146,"text":"大家不要有壓力就想講話就講話但如果不想講話我也都尊重那我們接下來請鄭天才政委員好非常謝謝這個除了提案案由裡面所提的這些案子需要調查之外"},{"start":2205.025,"end":2221.372,"text":"這個張錫凱委員特別提到的那個電影那個部分因為這個國發基金是根據這個產業發展條例第29條規定最主要的目的就是要加速產業創新加值促進經濟轉型經濟轉型及國家的發展"},{"start":2227.955,"end":2230.756,"text":"好,非常感謝鄭天才委員接下來我們有請張家俊張委員"},{"start":2260.728,"end":2284.495,"text":"主席、各位委員還有主委那其實這個國發基金我想大家都希望說他是真的對國家發展有幫助的但是我也要提醒一下主委成立這個不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會其實對於主委是一種保護因為你根本不理解說"},{"start":2285.615,"end":2288.698,"text":"在你之下會發生什麼事包括說之前這個盧新廠大賠慘賠的時候國發會的主委龔明星他在被尋的時候他就坦言說他是被騙了你知道嗎所以這件事情成立這個委員會對於主委對於國發會的這些行政人員其實是一個保障"},{"start":2308.517,"end":2336.365,"text":"尤其過去包括聯合債生賠了30億等等其實非常多的案件讓國發會淪為紓困基金真的是不應該包括審查的時候審議的過程應該要出席的人員不是請假就是代理擺明他們就是知道有問題官商勾結所以他們也在撇清責任主委我建議你"},{"start":2337.045,"end":2352.396,"text":"能夠支持我們成立這個委員會因為這個委員會的成立才能夠讓這個國發基金真正展現它的這個用途謝謝好非常感謝那個張家俊張委員我們接下來有請麥玉正麥委員"},{"start":2356.082,"end":2376.552,"text":"謝謝主席和各位委員我們希望真的是要成立一個獨立調查委員然後以展開全面的調查工作確保就是我們國發基金的投資運作也符合國家的利益就是未來在發展發生這一些弊案"},{"start":2377.512,"end":2397.817,"text":"也有像我們的張委員說的就是要有調查委員來幫忙我們就是有建議幾個必要性就是獨立性的透明度還有調查委員會將由律法院獨立應做確保調查的過程不受任何的行政單位的干擾還有對外公開調查結果"},{"start":2401.578,"end":2406.682,"text":"提升透明．增加社會對政府的信任．徹底揭露事實的真相．通過委員會的深入調查．全面透露基金的投入．還有管理．還有退場機制上的"},{"start":2423.575,"end":2435.703,"text":"協視以便誠心責任歸屬協保未來改善的措施第三就是修法與政策的建議調查委員會將根據調查的結果向立法院提出修法建議及政策的建議確保未來國發基金運作更加嚴謹有效以符合就是產業發展還有長遠的規劃"},{"start":2452.794,"end":2473.422,"text":"強化基金的運作還有成立調查委員會有助於查找目前基金管理的流程還有我們的制度的問題還有改善基金的管理運作因為都是在賠錢所以希望確保基金的使用"},{"start":2474.382,"end":2483.852,"text":"和法所以我們希望就是我們的同仁還有我們國發會的基金能承載著就是提升國發競爭力還有我們的經濟的發展還有就是我們如何負責"},{"start":2489.797,"end":2508.835,"text":"負責這個國發基金的監督還有運作我們合理性我們要成為成立一個調查委員會就是真正為徹底為國家監督的職責還有真相還有就是一些腐爛我們都是要有這個基金可以"},{"start":2510.977,"end":2520.334,"text":"要監督還有應做的信任所以希望大家去支持我們希望就是這個可以正式的去成立以上謝謝"},{"start":2521.943,"end":2538.887,"text":"好 非常感謝麥委員那因為剛剛那個民進黨黨團的代表蔡瑞瑜蔡委員舉手好像有什麼話想補充來有請蔡委員來我二次發言齁那因為我還是要強調齁因為調查委員會他一定要在呃憲法729號跟憲判之第9號"},{"start":2541.164,"end":2561.907,"text":"事實上它的要件就是說就立委行使職權的那第二是要特定議案有重大關聯且有調查之必要所以我在想因為剛剛包括我們提案人的時候他在他事實上提案裡面是列舉了三個包括盧鑫包括再生能源包括"},{"start":2563.048,"end":2576.764,"text":"東北那所以如果是叫特定事項那應該就是這三案但是後來又講到凌日攻擊那可能這部分就超出了所謂特定議案他所要調查委會所要調查的範圍"},{"start":2578.105,"end":2602.407,"text":"因為這個調查委員會他也不應該就是未來國發會在審理國發基金的時候變成他的保護傘還是怎樣我覺得這個都不是調查委員會的目的他要成立的目的所以我認為我們真的是有需要韓院長我們再次確認由院的層級成立的調查委員會那他的目的性以及他的一些"},{"start":2604.288,"end":2623.398,"text":"內容就是他的一個規範是如何那否則的話不可能成立一個調查委員會然後他就是掛在那邊然後他可以吼無窮只進媒案都可以來調查因為這是憲法第9號就講得很清楚他的特定議案就是說他的特定性要先把他框定住這樣好不好謝謝"},{"start":2626.778,"end":2641.229,"text":"那個謝謝蔡議員委員當然每一個委員有每一個委員個別的意見我們都尊重那現在黨團協商我基本上只是要確定各位黨團基本上面所抱持的立場"},{"start":2642.17,"end":2663.61,"text":"那有共識就有共識沒有共識我一向的立場是不希望在黨團協商變成了一個辯論或是互相攻擊的大會對於議事的效率對於委員彼此之間的和諧都不好所以我自己沒有表達太強烈的意見但我們確定各個黨團的立場這樣就好那今天非常感"},{"start":2665.351,"end":2686.846,"text":"我沒有說你有空氣來拜託我的主持會議這麼中立這麼平和這麼理性你應該聽得出來啦那個我們接下來非常今天也感謝我們的國發會的主委有到現場那我們是不是也不要讓您枯坐在這邊給主委是不是希望講幾句話"},{"start":2696.366,"end":2697.328,"text":"謝謝主席還有各位委員"},{"start":2705.174,"end":2728.215,"text":"謝謝委員還有主席我想表達幾件事第一個我覺得我們用詞一定要精準我們在電視前面國發基金不是全部賠錢剛剛委員說我們都在賠錢去年我們賺了288億我們今年預估也會超過265億那第二個如果投資私利就是有罪的話那巴菲特也有罪"},{"start":2730.209,"end":2751.16,"text":"但是請注意投資的公司違法請問你投資人有沒有罪我們現在是認定被投資的公司違法投資人有罪因為我們先認定是不當的投資跟失職所以我比較擔心我們同仁會因為這樣而先認定罪再去找"},{"start":2752.02,"end":2777.49,"text":"找出證據這個我不是那麼我是建議直接如果你們真的要查那就是查國發基金而不是說不當投資我不希望我們沒有罪就列了一個罪在上面這對我們同仁不公不公平第二個如果你今天只看投資失利的這幾個案子對我們是不公平的那我希望各位也要獎勵一下我們賺錢的部分對員工是不公平那再來第三個部分我也想講一下就是說"},{"start":2778.73,"end":2807.417,"text":"臨日攻擊到底是不是有罪是不是一個錯誤那我先講一下我們是依據文創條例我們我們把錢撥給了文化部文化部進行這樣的文創投資那這是這個程序我們從來沒有沒有沒說清楚過那這個程序的部分我們後來也把那個文化部的資料也送交委員身上了所以資料是還是存在的但是但是請注意喔他沒有被定罪之前不要說我們有罪因為"},{"start":2808.497,"end":2831.832,"text":"領略攻擊是一部電影它是一部電影是一個投資那能不能成功我們並不清楚我們尊重文化部的決定那盧鑫聯合再生等等我們認為這些公司有問題盧鑫我們也跟著去告了我們也去告了那我再講一遍就是說我們每一個評選都有評審委員的簽名投票裡面有反對的那"},{"start":2832.692,"end":2850.705,"text":"過去的是過半就通過所以一定有這個多數同意少數反對的問題那不能說這個案子沒有人同意那是他過去的遊戲規則那我也跟各位報告我已經把它改成三民之二同意跟四民之三同意兩個不同的階段那我們希望把它整個過程變得更嚴謹"},{"start":2851.866,"end":2877.822,"text":"那各位講的是沒有錄音的部分我們現在也錄音了都已經錄音了那每一個投票都有親自的簽名都有親自的簽名那我只是在表達第一個我們先建議沒有明確的政績我們先不要汙名這個團隊這個對大家不好第二個我們的確賺錢288億扣除台積電還賺了90多億非台積電的部分還賺了90多億那再來我們過去的管理我們認為這個公司這個這個獲利不好"},{"start":2881.624,"end":2897.89,"text":"然後我們就認為他不好但是其實不是的投資的時候還是要看被投資的股價舉個例子我們投資藥華藥他現在還沒賺錢但是我們已經賺了45倍股價600多那這些東西我想說我們可能要用比較正確的觀念來看他會比較好一點這是我想表達的"},{"start":2900.406,"end":2922.847,"text":"謝謝主委的發言那當然國發會有國發會的立場我也尊重國發會的立場所以也給主委發言的空間那當然裡面你所講的很多內容其他委員未必有跟你一致的看法那只不過說可能說要有一些正確的理解或正確的觀念我想在場每一位委員"},{"start":2923.687,"end":2949.898,"text":"大家都有正確的理解也有正確的觀念只是看的角度不太一樣我也不會說主委你要有正確的理解或正確的觀念這樣子恐怕也對主委不是很尊敬那因為剛剛張祺凱委員又舉手那我本來就想要把他結束掉了但因為剛剛蔡議員委員我有給他第二輪發言所以這樣馬上不給張委員第二輪發言的機會對張委員不公平那是不是請張委員就盡量剪短"},{"start":2951.86,"end":2978.286,"text":"主委不要不要太擔心啊你的努力我沒有看到只是我們要提醒你的上一任有說他被騙的我們希望你不要被騙我們是保護你啦那你剛提的不是國發基金都是不當的投資就是我們是你剛有賺錢的有正確的我們當然是肯定啊先是針對為什麼陳一正委員會是針對有不當投資的那一塊或者有失職的那一塊去做調查而已不是全部全部說國發基金投資的都都是不對的好不好"},{"start":2978.866,"end":2987.358,"text":"阿第二剛剛在講這個凌日攻擊這個事情這個事實上那天我看最近很多朝野立委都在提醒你就是他是一個兩岸戰爭騙"},{"start":2989.105,"end":3017.955,"text":"那國發基金本來就是為了國家發展啊你這個補助那麼多錢給他然後拍出來一個兩岸戰爭的對外資來投資真的好嗎那你前面把它丟給文化部這就是我們要調查的啦讓你有充分的講法然後讓民眾知道說為什麼你要去做這個投資可是目前看起來很多人沒有這個等一下沒關係很多案子啦那我提一下我們是講的是一個原則就是說為什麼要成立這個委員會那個毅我先停一下我先不好意思"},{"start":3019.161,"end":3035.078,"text":"我現在要實施主席的職權就拿到麥克風的請講話沒有拿到麥克風的請仔細聆聽謝謝大家那個張啟凱委員請繼續只是希望說看緊人民的這個納稅錢第二個國發基金真的要發揮它正當跟正常"},{"start":3035.658,"end":3055.956,"text":"而且確實是幫人民有幫助的國家發展所以至少有四個點我覺得是要強化為什麼今天要成立這個委員會第一個就如果有一部分是缺乏省慎的投資評估的這個機制那這個委員會就應該去把它查清楚第二個在審議過程裡面有沒有不透明例如說剛剛講的為什麼那麼多人都在請假或者老是在代理"},{"start":3056.616,"end":3078.277,"text":"他在逃避責任嗎?那第三個有沒有監督國力或者應變不足的地方?像剛剛講的為什麼丟下去的時候之前不曉得他這個公司已經有幾兩年就虧了一兩億然後就下市了然後還有這個有沒有秘密結社的問題有沒有牽扯不明因為在調查像我們剛剛講這三個案子裡面很多啊都牽扯到這個府院高層關係是密切的"},{"start":3079.349,"end":3089.441,"text":"而且後來很多虧損是很嚴重的我覺得就是說我們可以肯定就是說有些投資是正常正確的我們可以肯定可是相對如果有不當的我們希望把它查清楚好不好謝謝"},{"start":3091.089,"end":3109.695,"text":"好,非常感謝各位黨團的代表那從大家發言的結果可以很清楚的看得出來我們今天的協商沒有辦法達成共識沒有辦法達成共識所以我們的協商會議就結束那接下來我們就按照立法院相關的議事規則來加以處理謝謝,散會"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:30:34.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:30:50.864000+08:00","text":"非常感謝各位黨團的代表出席今天的黨團協商，因為表定的時間是 1 時 30 分開始，現在時\n間已到。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:30:52.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:31:25.837000+08:00","text":"我先介紹一下今天在場黨團代表的委員，首先是中國國民黨的鄭正鈐委員，也非常歡\n迎鄭天財委員，台灣民眾黨黨團的代表張啓楷委員及麥玉珍委員，也非常感謝民主進步黨黨團\n幹部蔡易餘委員。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:31:28.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:32:02.246000+08:00","text":"今天也非常感謝行政院官員列席，首先介紹的是國發會主委劉鏡清主委，以\n及國家發展基金管理委員會的執行秘書汪庭安執行秘書，其他還有一些組長、署長、副組長和\n簡秘，那我就在這邊一併表示歡迎，不一一介紹，因為時間的關係，請見諒。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:32:03.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:32:47.738000+08:00","text":"今天我們所召開的黨團協商，主要是要處理台灣民眾黨黨團為了要合理監督國發基金使用規\n劃，確實了解國家產業發展策略跟投資的評估，保障納稅人的權益與國家的資源，建請院會作\n成以下的決議：「成立『國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會』，要求國家發展委員\n會及行政院國家發展基金管理會等有關機關就特定議案涉及事項提供相關調查資料，於必要時\n依立法院職權行使法第五十九條之一舉行聽證會，以落實國會監督，保障納稅人之權益。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:32:52.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:33:12.214000+08:00","text":"」這\n個案子經由 113 年 7 月 16 日立法院第 11 屆第 1 會期第 22 次院會決議，交付黨團協商，由台灣\n民眾黨黨團負責召集協商，那我們首先是不是可以先請提案的黨團代表說明？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:33:12.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:33:19.318000+08:00","text":"是不是由台灣民\n眾黨黨團的代表先跟其他的黨團說明一下提案旨趣？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:33:20.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:33:20.639000+08:00","text":"請張啓楷委員說明。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:33:25.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:33:26.082000+08:00","text":"大家好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:33:30.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:33:37.127000+08:00","text":"今天我們要談的是人民的納稅錢到了國發基金有沒有被善加利用。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:33:37.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:34:37.239000+08:00","text":"我們台灣\n民眾黨做的統計發現，國發基金最近這幾年投資的標的差不多有超過一半是嚴重虧損，例如：\n2017 年投資如興，2018 年投資聯合再生能源，2019 年投資東貝光電科技，現在國發基金好像變\n成是一個紓困的基金了，尤有甚者，如興還出現了坑殺投資人，聯合再生不只是官商勾結，還\n有中國製造產品出現在我們的軍事要塞這個問題，所以現在看起來，國發基金問題一大堆，包\n括我們台灣民眾黨開了好幾次的記者會，還有包括投資「零日攻擊」，前幾天大家一直在討論\n說國發基金投資了「零日攻擊」這部影片，投資了 4,170 萬元，到目前為止，決策方式都沒有一\n個好好的交代。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:34:37.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:34:51.395000+08:00","text":"我剛剛臚列的這些案子，我發現在國發基金審查的過程裡面，很多委員都是請\n308\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 94 期 黨團協商紀錄\n假的，然後過程裡面看起來黑箱也滿多的。","quality":0.703},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:34:51.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:34:57.479000+08:00","text":"我剛剛提到的，光是如興，後來被發現洗錢洗到大\n陸去了。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:34:58.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:35:07.587000+08:00","text":"然後聯合再生不只採取了中國製造的逆變器，還裝設在蘭陽指揮部跟國防大學。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:35:08.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:35:15.452000+08:00","text":"東貝\n在 108 年投資的時候，不到兩年就因為嚴重的虧損，導致證券交易所將其下市。","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:35:17.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:35:37.365000+08:00","text":"所以今天我們\n鄭重地提出來，希望我們可以依照立法院職權行使法第八章調查權的行使，建議院會作成決議\n，成立國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:35:37.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:35:45.570000+08:00","text":"我剛剛只是臚列了四個重要的案子，還\n有非常多的問題，第一個，是不是在審查的過程裡面有問題？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:35:45.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:35:53.655000+08:00","text":"主委上任之初就有特別提醒，以\n前的投資審查過程可能有一些問題，要怎麼精進，這是一部分。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:35:54.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:35:58.698000+08:00","text":"第二個，剛剛講的，在這個過\n程裡面虧損為什麼這麼嚴重，甚至發生了弊案？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:35:59.058000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:36:16.669000+08:00","text":"我們很期待朝野能夠一心把人民的納稅錢看緊\n，而且既然是國家發展基金，就應該是對國家發展有用的，我們希望把這個虧損的問題可以解\n決，把裡面的弊案可以查清楚，所以建請大家可以強烈地來支持這個案子，早一點成立。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:36:17.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:36:32.456000+08:00","text":"今天\n不要變成好像又等於要各說各話，又要送交表決，好像也不見得好，如果能夠期待的話，今天\n或許大家可以在委員會裡面這次的朝野協商有一個共識，我們早一點在院會成立國家發展基金\n不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會，謝謝。","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:36:34.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:36:36.364000+08:00","text":"好，非常感謝張啓楷委員。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:36:36.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:36:42.788000+08:00","text":"我補充介紹，歡迎中國國民黨的張嘉郡委員也來出席這一場黨團協商。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:36:43.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:36:47.891000+08:00","text":"那接下來我們是不是請中國國民黨的代表？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:36:48.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:36:49.572000+08:00","text":"不曉得哪一位委員要發言？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:36:49.572000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:36:50.693000+08:00","text":"來，請鄭正鈐委員代\n表發言。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-05T13:36:53.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:37:01.110000+08:00","text":"主席、所有的委員、國發會劉主委、汪執秘。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-05T13:37:02.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:37:44.047000+08:00","text":"我想說，我們今天希望能夠成立國發基\n金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會，我覺得其實是有它的必要，說實話，劉主委上來之後，我\n知道現在對於整個國發基金的投資有趨嚴的一個方向，可是，其實我們看到，監察院在 112 年 1\n月的時候才對東貝和如興兩家上市公司導致國發基金及廣大股民受損一事提出糾正案，在這裡\n頭，監察院也直接提出國發會有五大缺失，包括：一、政策評估會議不公開透明、沒有留錄音\n發言紀錄。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-05T13:37:44.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:37:49.431000+08:00","text":"二、國發會產發處缺乏評估依據及過程。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-05T13:37:50.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:37:55.096000+08:00","text":"三、決策軌跡及可課責之內控機制付諸闕\n如。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-05T13:37:56.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:38:00.560000+08:00","text":"四、盡職調查及企業價值評鑑未確實執行。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-05T13:38:01.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:38:04.944000+08:00","text":"五、忽視外聘專家學者警示意見。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-05T13:38:04.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:38:21.576000+08:00","text":"所以簡單來\n說，這五個裡面就特別提到，在審這個案子的時候，外聘專家就已經提出了警告，可是國發會\n充耳不聞，然後又沒有保存發言的紀錄，作為事後課責的一個基礎。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-05T13:38:21.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:39:19.919000+08:00","text":"我進經濟委員會以來，坦\n白說，我有注意到另外一個個案，就是兆遠案，兆遠案就是國發基金從第一次的政策評估到會\n議通過決定投資只花三個月的時間，三個月之後，投資了 2 億 496 萬進去之後，有要求國發基\n金要有一席董事跟一席獨董，結果兆遠拿了錢之後什麼都沒有做，拖了一年多之後才讓董事進\n駐，然後在進駐的同時，還宣布了減資 57.97%，所以等於是拿了國發基金的錢進去之後，國發\n基金什麼都還沒有做，就已經損失掉了將近 50%左右的錢，在兩年之後再次減資 50.05%，就是\n國發基金投資了三年之後遇到了兩次減資，就直接虧損了 80%，然後 1.6 億的公帑就這樣不見了\n。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-05T13:39:20.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:40:38.425000+08:00","text":"在這裡面我就發現，在經濟委員會會議中，我們曾經要求拿到一些當時審這個案子的細部資\n料，其實也沒有辦法取得，當時只是說有一個體質很好的大公司環球晶也投入了，環球晶投入\n跟我們國發基金投入，是不是就是一樣的 1：1 的條件，就可以直接去做，我們不曉得，重點是\n309\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 94 期 黨團協商紀錄\n，我後來才發現，國發會在長期虧損的列管表當中，兆遠竟然已經變成了一個正常戶，我們虧\n損了 80%之後，它變成正常戶，為什麼變成正常戶，是因為環球晶把它併購了，這樣子莫名其\n妙走下來之後，我們就損失了這麼多錢，然後感覺好像就是也沒有太多課責的情況，那我們希\n望國發會、國發基金整個投資的部分都能夠有更好的 performance，當然我們知道國發基金某一\n個部分有創投的概念在裡頭，可是在這個過程當中，不能說有創投的概念，所以對風險就沒有\n辦法去控管，我覺得這是不對的，所以對於今天民眾黨提出希望成立國發基金的不當投資暨管\n理失職調查委員會，本席是強力支持的。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-05T13:40:38.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:40:40.486000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:40:40.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:40:43.108000+08:00","text":"好，非常感謝鄭正鈐委員。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:40:43.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:40:47.871000+08:00","text":"接下來請民主進步黨黨團幹部蔡易餘委員。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-05T13:40:50.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:40:50.523000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-05T13:40:51.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:42:34.835000+08:00","text":"我們今天處理針對國發基金成立調查委員會一案，我們知道，立法院成立\n調查委員會，釋字第 729 號及最近的憲判字第 9 號基本上都講到，主要針對跟立法院行使法律\n案或預算案的特定議案有重大關聯的事項，當然民眾黨提案有列舉關聯的方向，但是憲判字第 9\n號提出之後，未來這樣的調查委員會是由院會來成立，這大概是制度上的一個改變，因為過去\n是由委員會來成立調查委員會，所以我們的具體建議是，希望可以由韓國瑜院長、秘書長先來\n跟大家溝通，討論未來這樣的調查委員會成立的形式，或者是未來這樣的委員會如何運作，以\n及內部成員的分配，我想這個可能有需要院長來協商院會層級的調查委員會要如何來運作，所\n以我們具體是說，這部分是不是有待由我們韓院長來協商，之後再來討論未來立法院所成立的\n調查委員會，因為這個是第一個，所以我想這個部分是不是如同我剛剛所說的？","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-05T13:42:35.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:42:35.035000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:42:36.315000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:42:47.385000+08:00","text":"好，所以民主進步黨黨團蔡委員的立場是說，目前沒有贊成，也沒有反對，主要的意思是希\n望由韓國瑜院長來召集協商，是嗎？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-05T13:42:47.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:42:47.785000+08:00","text":"沒有錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-05T13:42:47.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:43:11.415000+08:00","text":"因為調查委員會的部分是屬於院會層級的，所以未來整個成立的條件是怎樣\n，在院長還沒有說明的時候，基本上我們反對今天就要來協商，然後要來成立這樣的調查委員\n會。OK。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:43:11.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:43:49.633000+08:00","text":"基本上我主持協商時，我的立場都跟以前一樣，雖然對這件事情我自己有非常強烈的\n意見跟看法，但在主席的位置上，我把自己強烈的意見跟看法都保留在自己心中，不太適合在\n主席的位置上面做太強烈的宣告，只不過是說，跟協商有關係的事項，還是要跟大家報告，目\n前由台灣民眾黨黨團所成立的國發基金的調查委員會，的確就是在院會的層級下面，的確就是\n在院會的層級下面，我們要設這個調查委員會，所以這個是院會層級，沒有問題。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:43:51.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:44:17.610000+08:00","text":"第二個部分，今天之所以會召集協商，其實也不是我們吃飽太閒，沒有事要找事做，因為這\n個就是經由院會的決議，交由台灣民眾黨黨團來負責召集協商，那既然是院會的決議，那我們\n就要執行院會的決議，所以今天也非常感謝三個黨團都派了代表來出席這一場協商。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:44:19.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:44:31.262000+08:00","text":"當然三個\n黨團的代表都輪流發言過了，但今天還有其他的委員也很關心所以來參與，那我是不是先請教\n一下其他委員，是不是有想要發言來表達一些意見？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:44:33.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:44:38.716000+08:00","text":"大家不要有壓力，想講話就講話，但如果\n不想講話，我也都尊重，那我們接下來請鄭天財委員。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-05T13:44:39.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:44:43.841000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：好，非常謝謝。","quality":0.389},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-05T13:44:43.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:45:08.352000+08:00","text":"除了提案案由裡面所提到的這些案子需要調查之外，張\n310\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 94 期 黨團協商紀錄\n啓楷委員特別提到的那個電影的部分，因為國發基金是根據產業發展條例第二十九條規定，最\n主要的目的就是要加速產業創新加值、促進經濟轉型及國家的發展，所以這個部分如果是文化\n的部分，也應該是屬於文化創意的發展，在這個辦法裡面都有明定了它的用途，投資這個電影\n，是不是有符合文化創意發展這個目的，都必須一併地列入調查。以上。","quality":0.456},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:45:14.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:45:16.496000+08:00","text":"好，非常感謝鄭天財委員。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:45:16.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:45:17.756000+08:00","text":"接下來我們有請張嘉郡委員。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-11-05T13:45:47.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:45:49.909000+08:00","text":"主席、各位委員、主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-11-05T13:45:50.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:46:14.437000+08:00","text":"其實關於國發基金，我想大家都希望說它是真的對國家發展\n有幫助的，但是我也要提醒一下主委，成立不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會，其實對於主委是\n一種保護，因為你根本不理解在你之下會發生什麼事，包括之前如興大賠慘賠的時候，國發會\n的主委龔明鑫在備詢的時候就坦言說他是被騙了，你知道嗎？","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-11-05T13:46:14.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:46:15.678000+08:00","text":"所以成立這個委員會對於主委及\n國發會這些行政人員來說，其實是一個保障。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-11-05T13:46:35.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:46:49.361000+08:00","text":"尤其，過去包括聯合再生賠了 30 億等等，其實非\n常多的案件讓國發會淪為紓困基金，真的是不應該。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-11-05T13:46:49.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:47:02.184000+08:00","text":"包括審查時審議的過程應該要出席的人員\n，不是請假就是代理，擺明了他們就是知道有問題，官商勾結，所以他們也在撇清責任。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"張委員嘉郡","start":"2024-11-05T13:47:02.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:47:14.113000+08:00","text":"主委\n，我建議你支持我們成立這個委員會，因為這個委員會的成立，才能夠讓國發基金真正展現它\n的用途。謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:47:15.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:47:17.855000+08:00","text":"非常感謝張嘉郡委員。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:47:17.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:47:19.396000+08:00","text":"我們接下來有請麥玉珍委員。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-05T13:47:23.082000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:48:11.200000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席、各位委員，我們希望真的成立一個獨立調查委員會，然後展開全面的調查\n工作，確保國發基金的投資運作，也符合國家的利益，未來若再發生一些弊案，也像我們張委\n員說的，就是要有調查委員來幫忙，我們建議有幾個必要性，就是獨立性的透明度，還有調查\n委員會將由立法院獨立運作，確保調查的過程不受任何行政單位的干擾，還有對外公開調查結\n果，也提升透明度，增加社會對政府的信任。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-05T13:48:11.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:48:35.618000+08:00","text":"第二，澈底揭露事實的真相，透過委員會的深入調查，也可以全面透露基金的投入和管理，\n還有退場機制上的缺失，以便澄清責任歸屬，確保未來改善的措施。","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-05T13:48:36.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:49:00.915000+08:00","text":"第三就是修法及政策的建議，調查委員會將根據調查的結果，向立法院提出修法建議及政策\n的建議，確保未來國發基金運作更加嚴謹有效，以符合產業發展及長遠的規劃，強化基金的運\n作。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-05T13:49:01.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:50:06.713000+08:00","text":"成立調查委員會，有助於查找目前基金管理的流程及制度的問題，還有改善基金的管理運\n作，因為都是在賠錢，所以希望確保基金的使用合法，所以我們希望我們的同仁及國發基金能\n提升國發競爭力及我們的經濟發展，還有我們如何負責國發基金的監督和運作，要有合理性，\n我們要成立一個調查委員會，真正承擔澈底為國家監督的職責，調查真相和腐敗，我們都是要\n監督這個基金，讓它的運作得到信任，所以希望大家支持，我們希望這個委員會可以正式成立\n。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-05T13:50:07.214000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:50:07.334000+08:00","text":"好，以上，謝謝。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:50:08.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:50:10.483000+08:00","text":"好，非常感謝麥委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:50:10.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:50:17.585000+08:00","text":"因為剛剛民進黨黨團代表蔡易餘委員舉手，好像有什麼話想要補充，來，有請蔡委員。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-05T13:50:17.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:51:50.398000+08:00","text":"來，我二次發言，我還是要強調，因為調查委員會一定要符合憲法釋字第 729 號跟憲\n311\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 94 期 黨團協商紀錄\n判字第 9 號，事實上它的要件就是立委行使職權，第二個就是要和特定議案有重大關聯，且有\n調查之必要，所以我在想，提案人在提案裡面列舉了三個例子，包括如興、聯合再生能源、東\n貝，所以如果是叫特定事項，那應該就是指這三案，但是後來又有講到「零日攻擊」，那這部\n分可能就超出了所謂特定議案的範圍，也就是調查委員會所要調查的範圍，因為這個調查委員\n會也不應該在未來國發會審理國發基金的時候，變成它的保護傘，我覺得這都不是調查委員會\n成立的目的，所以我認為，我們真的有需要請韓院長，我們再次確認由院的層級成立的調查委\n員會的目的性，以及它的一些內容，也就是規範是如何，否則的話，不可能成立一個調查委員\n會，然後就是掛在那邊，然後就可以無窮無止盡，每一案都可以來調查，因為憲判字第 9 號講\n得很清楚，所謂的特定議案，就是說它的特定性要先框定住，這樣好不好？謝謝。","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:51:54.419000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:51:55.520000+08:00","text":"謝謝蔡易餘委員。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:51:55.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:52:29.669000+08:00","text":"當然每一個委員有每一個委員個別的意見，我們都尊重，現在黨團協商，我基本上只是要確\n定各個黨團基本上所抱持的立場，有共識就有共識，如果沒有共識，我一向的立場是不希望在\n黨團協商變成了一個辯論或互相攻擊的大會，這樣對於議事的效率、對於委員彼此之間的和諧\n都不好，所以我自己沒有表達太強烈的意見，但我們確定各個黨團的立場這樣就好。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-05T13:52:29.669000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T13:52:32.351000+08:00","text":"我沒有攻擊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:52:32.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:52:40.257000+08:00","text":"沒有，沒有，沒有，我沒有說你有攻擊，拜託，我在主持會議，這麼中立，這麼平和，這麼\n理性，你應該聽得出來啦。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:52:44.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:52:53.846000+08:00","text":"今天也感謝國發會的主委來到現場，那我們也不要讓你枯坐在這邊，主委是不是希望講幾句\n話？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"劉主任委員鏡清","start":"2024-11-05T13:53:03.366000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:53:04.328000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席和各位委員。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"劉主任委員鏡清","start":"2024-11-05T13:53:15.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:53:30.170000+08:00","text":"我想表達幾件事，第一個，我覺得我們用詞一定要精準，\n我們在電視前面，國發基金不是全部賠錢，剛剛委員說我們都在賠錢，去年我們賺了 288 億，\n我們今年預估也會超過 265 億。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉主任委員鏡清","start":"2024-11-05T13:53:30.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:53:42.052000+08:00","text":"第二個，如果投資失利就是有罪的話，那巴菲特也有罪，但是\n請注意，投資的公司違法，請問你，投資人有沒有罪？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"劉主任委員鏡清","start":"2024-11-05T13:53:43.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:54:11.585000+08:00","text":"我們現在是認定被投資的公司違法，投\n資人有罪，因為我們先認定是不當的投資跟失職，所以我比較擔心我們同仁會因為這樣而先認\n定罪，再去找出證據，我是建議，如果你們真的要查，那就是查國發基金，而不是說不當投資\n，我不希望我們沒有罪就列了一個罪在上面，這個對我們同仁不公平。","quality":0.992},{"speaker":"劉主任委員鏡清","start":"2024-11-05T13:54:11.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:54:21.348000+08:00","text":"第二個，如果你今天只\n看投資失利的這幾個案子，對我們是不公平的，我希望各位也要獎勵一下我們賺錢的部分，不\n然對員工是不公平的。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"劉主任委員鏡清","start":"2024-11-05T13:54:22.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:54:27.370000+08:00","text":"第三個部分，我也想講一下，就是說「零日攻擊」到底是不是有罪？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"劉主任委員鏡清","start":"2024-11-05T13:54:28.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:54:29.471000+08:00","text":"是\n不是一個錯誤？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉主任委員鏡清","start":"2024-11-05T13:54:29.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:55:02.161000+08:00","text":"那我先講一下，我們是依據文創條例，把錢撥給了文化部，文化部進行這樣的\n文創投資，是這個程序，我們從來沒有沒說清楚過，這個程序的部分，我們後來也把文化部的\n資料送交委員了，所以資料還是存在，但是請注意，在沒有被定罪之前，不要說我們有罪，因\n為「零日攻擊」是一部電影，它是一部電影，是一個投資，能不能成功，我們並不清楚，我們\n尊重文化部的決定。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"劉主任委員鏡清","start":"2024-11-05T13:55:04.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:55:10.647000+08:00","text":"至於如興、聯合再生等等，我們認為這些公司有問題，對如興，我們也跟\n著去告了，我們也去告了。","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"劉主任委員鏡清","start":"2024-11-05T13:55:10.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:55:54.796000+08:00","text":"那我再講一遍，就是說，我們每一個評選都有評審委員的簽名、投\n票，裡面有反對的，過去是過半就通過，所以一定有多數同意、少數反對的問題，不能說這個\n312\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 94 期 黨團協商紀錄\n案子沒有人同意，那是過去的遊戲規則，那我也跟各位報告，我已經把規則改成三分之二同意\n跟四分之三同意兩個不同的階段，我們希望把整個過程變得更嚴謹，各位講的是沒有錄音的部\n分，我們現在也錄音了，都已經錄音了，每一個投票都有親自的簽名，都有親自的簽名，我只\n是在表達，第一個，我們先建議，如果沒有明確的證據，先不要污名化這個團隊，這個對大家\n不好。","quality":0.89},{"speaker":"劉主任委員鏡清","start":"2024-11-05T13:55:55.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:56:02.560000+08:00","text":"第二個，我們的確有賺錢，288 億，扣除台積電的部分，還賺了九十多億，非台積電的部\n分還賺了九十多億。","quality":0.55},{"speaker":"劉主任委員鏡清","start":"2024-11-05T13:56:02.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:56:24.870000+08:00","text":"再來，我們過去的管理，因為我們認為這個公司獲利不好，就認為它不好\n，但是其實不是的，投資的時候，還是要看被投資者的股價，舉個例子，我們投資藥華藥，它\n現在還沒賺錢，但是我們已經賺了 45 倍，股價六百多，我想說，我們可能要用比較正確的觀念\n來看它，會比較好一點，這是我想表達的。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:56:27.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:56:28.067000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝主委的發言。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:56:29.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:56:58.970000+08:00","text":"當然國發會有國發會的立場，我也尊重國發會的立場，所以也給主委\n發言的空間，你所講的很多內容，其他委員未必有跟你一致的看法，只不過說，可能要有一些\n正確的理解或正確的觀念，我想，在場每一位委員，大家都有正確的理解，也有正確的觀念，\n只是看的角度不太一樣，我也不會說：「主委，你要有正確的理解或正確的觀念。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:56:59.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:57:02.672000+08:00","text":"」這樣子恐\n怕也對主委不是很尊敬。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:57:04.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:57:16.878000+08:00","text":"剛剛張啓楷委員又舉手，我本來是想要把會議結束掉，但因為剛剛蔡易餘委員我有給他第二\n輪發言，所以如果不給張委員第二輪發言的機會，對張委員不公平，那是不是請張委員發言也\n請儘量簡短？","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:57:18.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:57:20.260000+08:00","text":"主委，不要太擔心啦！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:57:20.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:57:27.502000+08:00","text":"你的努力，我們有看到，只是我們要提醒，你的上一任有說他\n被騙了，我們是希望你不要被騙，我們是保護你。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:57:28.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:57:37.064000+08:00","text":"那你剛剛提的，不是國發基金都是不當的投\n資，你剛剛提的，有賺錢的，有正確的，我們當然是肯定，為什麼成立這個委員會？","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:57:37.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:57:45.266000+08:00","text":"是針對有\n不當投資的那一塊或者有失職的那一塊去做調查而已，不是全部，不是說國發基金投資的都是\n不對的，好不好？","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:57:45.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:58:04.568000+08:00","text":"第二個，剛剛在講「零日攻擊」這個事情，事實上，我看這段時間很多朝野立委都在提醒你\n，就是它是一個兩岸戰爭片，國發基金本來就是要為了國家發展，你補助那麼多錢給他們，然\n後拍出來一個兩岸戰爭的電影，對外資來投資真的好嗎？","quality":0.874},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:58:04.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:58:07.169000+08:00","text":"那你全部把它丟給文化部，這就是我\n們要調查的啊。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:58:08.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:58:12.050000+08:00","text":"讓你有充分的講法，然後可以讓民眾知道為什麼你要去做這個投資。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:58:16.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:58:20.893000+08:00","text":"我提一下\n，我們講的是一個原則，就是說，為什麼要成立這個委員會…………","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:58:20.893000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T13:58:22.674000+08:00","text":"易餘、易餘……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:58:22.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:58:34.149000+08:00","text":"先停一下，不好意思，我現在要行使主席的職權，拿到麥克風的人請講話，沒有拿到麥克風\n的人請仔細聆聽，謝謝大家。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:58:35.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:58:35.711000+08:00","text":"張委員請繼續。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:58:35.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:58:38.534000+08:00","text":"我只是希望看緊人民的納稅錢。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:58:38.534000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:58:48.483000+08:00","text":"第二個，國發基金真的要發揮正當跟正常，而且確實\n是幫人民有幫助的國家發展，所以至少有四個點要強化，為什麼今天要成立這個委員會？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:58:48.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:58:55.469000+08:00","text":"第一\n個，如果有一部分是缺乏審慎的投資評估機制，那這個委員會就應該去把它查清楚。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:58:55.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:58:58.312000+08:00","text":"第二個，\n在審議過程裡面有沒有不透明？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:58:59.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:59:05.378000+08:00","text":"例如說剛剛講的，為什麼那麼多人都在請假，或者老是這些人\n313\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 94 期 黨團協商紀錄\n代理，他們是在逃避責任嗎？","quality":0.608},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:59:05.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:59:08.180000+08:00","text":"第三個，有沒有監督不力或應變不足的地方？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:59:08.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:59:12.024000+08:00","text":"像剛剛講的，為什\n麼錢丟下去的時候，之前不曉得這個公司已經有問題？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:59:12.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:59:14.727000+08:00","text":"兩年就虧了一、兩億，然後就下市了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:59:16.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:59:17.429000+08:00","text":"第四個，有沒有秘密決策的問題？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:59:17.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:59:18.310000+08:00","text":"有沒有權責不明？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:59:19.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:59:27.911000+08:00","text":"像我們剛剛講的這三個案子裡面，很多都\n牽扯到府院高層關係是密切的，而且後來很多虧損是很嚴重的。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-11-05T13:59:29.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:59:36.441000+08:00","text":"有些投資是正常、正確的，我\n們會給予肯定，可是相對的，如果有不當的，我們希望把它查清楚，好不好？謝謝。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:59:38.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-05T13:59:56.695000+08:00","text":"好，非常感謝各位黨團的代表，從大家發言的結果，可以很清楚的看得出來，我們今天的協\n商沒有辦法達成共識，沒辦法達成共識，所以我們的協商會議就結束，接下來我們就按照立法\n院相關的議事規則來加以處理，謝謝，散會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T13:59:57.195000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:00:02.337857+08:00","text":"散會（14 時）\n314\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 94 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:00:02.637857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:00:06.066429+08:00","text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部，辛苦大家！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:00:06.366429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:00:34.937857+08:00","text":"也特別感謝行政院所有列席的首長，再次介紹一下，行政院\n的龔秘書長，辛苦你，謝謝，歡迎；行政院主計總處陳主計長，歡迎您，辛苦；農業部陳部長\n，辛苦，歡迎您；衛福部邱部長，辛苦，歡迎您；原民會曾主委，辛苦，歡迎，你今天學到了\n一課，下次走路要快一點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:00:35.237857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:00:38.666429+08:00","text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部，謝謝大家！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:00:38.966429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:00:58.395000+08:00","text":"我想今天特別要召集大家，剛剛也處理了延會動議，到 114 年度中央政府總預算案處理完畢之\n後才散會，所以要請各位黨團發表大家寶貴的意見，請問哪個黨團要先發言？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:00:58.695000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:01:04.980714+08:00","text":"我們先請吳思瑤\n幹事長發言，然後國民黨黨團請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-05T14:01:05.280714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:01:09.852143+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，各個黨團的夥伴大家辛苦了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-05T14:01:10.152143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:01:42.723571+08:00","text":"今天是我們針對總預算第 4 次的朝野協商，\n非常希望這一次能夠一舉突破過去的困境，民進黨黨團已經有提案，當然就是照程序，希望在\n今天完成院長的詢答之後，能夠依照往例就交付委員會審查，所以向各黨團表達我們的立場，\n我們也有這樣子的一個提案，這都是依往例來辦理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-05T14:01:43.023571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:02:19.880714+08:00","text":"至於幾個黨團對於總預算一些編列部分的指正，當然稍後各黨都還可以提出一些建議，行政\n部門也在這裡，可以提出回應，但我想一個基礎的原則，我們還是在一個大家各退一步的方式\n跟前提之下，如果在野黨委員希望尋求三大議案的預算調整，勢必也希望大家能夠在依循法制\n程序的補正上，大家一起提出解方。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-05T14:02:20.180714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:02:27.895000+08:00","text":"畢竟我想原住民族的禁伐補償這一項，是明年 9 月才會執\n行的預算。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-05T14:02:28.195000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:02:39.052143+08:00","text":"公糧收購跟健保點值的部分，健保點值當初的預估也是明年 6 月儘可能來達到這樣\n子的目標。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-05T14:02:39.352143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:02:53.923571+08:00","text":"公糧收購當然可以在預算的執行上去做一些……部長也多次說明，用其他的政策工\n具，但是同樣可以達到幫助農民的這個效用。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-05T14:02:54.223571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:03:30.509286+08:00","text":"所以我們希望大家回到一個合憲、合法、合規的\n基礎上，各種預算編列的方式都可以一起來尋求化解，相信大家都有這樣的智慧跟誠意，所以\n剛剛院會已經通過今天議案處理完才散會，我想各黨的委員都在場準備，只是也有很多國人在\n線上觀看，希望無論如何今天能夠順利的付委，再次表達民進黨黨團的立場。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-05T14:03:30.809286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:03:32.809286+08:00","text":"大家辛苦了，謝\n謝！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:03:33.109286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:03:35.966429+08:00","text":"謝謝吳思瑤幹事長發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:03:36.266429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:03:41.123571+08:00","text":"請國民黨黨團發言，請林思銘書記長發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-05T14:03:41.423571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:03:42.566429+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-05T14:03:42.866429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:04:04.866429+08:00","text":"我想我們還是很堅持，就是這一次的總預算如果要儘速地付委的話，對於\n原民補償條例的這個法案，三讀通過的法案，相關預算的編列我們還是堅持，我們非常堅持，\n就是一定要依法來編列。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-05T14:04:05.166429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:04:38.023571+08:00","text":"如果是用基金的方式來補足，這是我們最大的一個疑問，我們是堅決\n反對用基金的方式來支應；如果是用修正預算、用追加預算的方式或者是二備金，我想這可以\n386\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n討論，待會我們也請主計長詳細說明，到底行政院是準備要在哪一個科目來做支應？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-05T14:04:38.323571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:04:52.037857+08:00","text":"至於健保\n點值的部分，我想邱部長也有到，待會我們也請邱部長再做更充分、更詳細的說明，如何達到\n0.95 這樣的一個值。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-05T14:04:52.337857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:05:21.195000+08:00","text":"另外，公糧收購的部分，其實公糧收購的部分，我們仔細去精算只要 20 億\n，不是民進黨講的 91 億，所以這 20 億我們認為在整個總預算還有一個調整的空間，所以我們\n也是堅決要求要把公糧收購調整為 5 元，這個案子請行政院也還是要把它編補在總預算裡面。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-05T14:05:21.495000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:05:22.637857+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:05:22.937857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:05:25.223571+08:00","text":"謝謝林思銘書記長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:05:25.523571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:05:29.237857+08:00","text":"接下來請台灣民眾黨黨團發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-05T14:05:29.537857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:05:30.680714+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-05T14:05:30.980714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:06:03.266429+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨黨團的立場非常的簡單，也非常的清楚，我先從最簡單的開始\n講，當初有關於健保點值最後達成的是三個黨團的共識，在那個過程當中，衛福部部長充分實\n質的參與，行政部門當初參與，立法部門大家都簽字，為了要去兌現對基層醫護的保障，這就\n是政府該做的事情。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-05T14:06:03.566429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:06:17.280714+08:00","text":"既然是政府該做的事情，在預算的編列上，自然而然要反映上去，否則的\n話，我們無法理解上個會期大家到底在忙什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-05T14:06:17.580714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:06:24.723571+08:00","text":"三個黨團都簽了字，衛福部部長實質參與，結\n果是廢紙一張嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-05T14:06:25.023571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:06:27.880714+08:00","text":"恐怕不應該是這個樣子。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-05T14:06:28.180714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:06:54.752143+08:00","text":"公糧收購的部分，農業部有他們自己的想法，他們好好去努力，我們尊重，我們從來也沒有\n反對農業部要透過什麼樣的措施，只不過這幾年做下來，實際上面有沒有達到那樣的效果，我\n相信很多基層農民的心裡都有最直接的感受。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-05T14:06:55.052143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:07:22.766429+08:00","text":"而在公糧收購價格的這件事情上，我想在整個立\n法歷程非常清楚的反映，當初台灣民眾黨黨團提案，我們感謝中國國民黨黨團也支持，最後院\n長在上面主持院會的時候，請問在場委員有沒有異議，沒有一個人有異議，沒有一個人有異議\n啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-05T14:07:23.066429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:07:35.923571+08:00","text":"既然是沒有一個人有異議的情況之下，站在基層農民的保障上面，我們當然會要求行政部\n門如實的編列預算。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-05T14:07:36.223571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:07:49.080714+08:00","text":"禁伐補償這件事情依法行政，法律已經三讀修正通過，每公頃就是 6 萬元，你說透過基金的\n方式，就不能這樣做嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-05T14:07:49.380714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:08:03.666429+08:00","text":"我相信之前在協商的時候、在質詢的時候，過去曾經做過的決議非常\n的清楚，就請行政院就禁伐補償的部分依法編列預算。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-05T14:08:03.966429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:08:17.109286+08:00","text":"只要行政部門做到了他們該做的事情，\n台灣民眾黨黨團對付委審查沒有意見，但我們今天為什麼會走到這一步？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-05T14:08:17.409286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:08:37.980714+08:00","text":"就是行政部門沒有依\n法編列預算，沒有依法編列預算，我們真的付委審查了以後，處於一個不可逆的狀態，我也只\n能刪、只能凍，到真的審查預算的時候，我可以挪用其他的科目嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-05T14:08:38.280714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:08:39.423571+08:00","text":"也不行嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-05T14:08:39.723571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:09:15.437857+08:00","text":"因為這些事情\n其實我相信院長聽到應該都快要會背了，大家各個不管在說明上、在立場上，我們已經一而再\n、再而三的表達，非常謙卑的希望我們行政部門能夠把原住民、基層農民、基層醫護的保障放\n在心裡面，好好的編列預算，只要編列預算完了，我們當然就依法審查，這是我們作為立法委\n員應該盡的職責。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-05T14:09:15.737857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:09:29.737857+08:00","text":"這個是台灣民眾黨黨團今天開了黨團的會議以後，我們所達成共識的立場，\n跟院長還有其他各位黨團的代表報告，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:09:30.037857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:09:38.037857+08:00","text":"如果各黨團沒有補充，我們想請列席的官員來……請蔡易餘書記長發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-05T14:09:38.337857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:09:39.480714+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-05T14:09:39.780714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:10:38.352143+08:00","text":"我補充發言，我想院長主持總預算協商，今天是第四次，這幾次的協商基\n本上民進黨團都是希望，至少也要踐行預算法所要求的相對應的程序，這部分我相信在質詢的\n387\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n過程中，我看到卓院長也多次表達他的善意，他認為這些預算縱使要用任何方式，用基金、用\n第二預備金，或者用追加預算的方式，這可以來談，但是他認為預算法第九十一條的程序，也\n是一個必要的程序，所以這部分是卓院長在每位委員質詢的時候，他所強調的一個重點，這也\n是我們黨團主張的立場。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-05T14:10:38.652143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:10:53.509286+08:00","text":"這個程序要踐行，你要要求行政院編更多預算，就是要徵詢行政院同\n意，然後由他們去找彌補資金的一個來源，程序要跑在前面。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-05T14:10:53.809286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:11:15.237857+08:00","text":"站在每位民意代表立場，都希望\n可以爭取更多資源給我們的鄉親，大家都是這樣希望，但是行政院有它財政紀律的考量，基於\n財政紀律考量的前提，當然有他們應該要遵守的財政紀律。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-05T14:11:15.537857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:11:32.966429+08:00","text":"所以我們黨團是認為在這樣的前提\n之下，我們當然同意不管是怎樣的一個方案，我們也希望就總預算，現在已經拖到 11 月了，我\n們該讓總預算付委審查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-05T14:11:33.266429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:12:00.123571+08:00","text":"接下來付委後在各委員會，大家還是可以秉持專業，要求未來各委員\n會在處理預算的時候，希望機關怎麼去調整他們的行政作為，這個我想都是未來在預算審查的\n時候，大家都可以再發揮我們民意代表對於機關的一個監督，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:12:00.423571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:12:02.709286+08:00","text":"謝謝蔡易餘書記長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:12:03.009286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:12:05.866429+08:00","text":"請國民黨黨團二輪發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-05T14:12:06.166429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:12:25.595000+08:00","text":"首先，謝謝院長再度的做協商，今天整個總預算報告結束，我們當然也聽到卓院長針\n對很多委員關心的，比如原民禁伐補償條例的部分在預算上面要做什麼樣的修正。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-05T14:12:25.895000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:12:39.895000+08:00","text":"問題是不管\n用綜合發展基金，或者是用二備金，或者是用追加預算，我必須說我們並沒有聽到院長有一個\n很明確的答復。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-05T14:12:40.195000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:12:51.909286+08:00","text":"事實上，今天在座也有關心的原民的委員，他們並沒有在這次的質詢裡面聽到\n相關比較明確的答復。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-05T14:12:52.209286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:13:08.495000+08:00","text":"另外大家也知道還有公糧收購的問題，以及健保點值的問題，我們更沒\n有在這一次的質詢裡面，聽到有任何的、要怎麼樣具體的補正的措施。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-05T14:13:08.795000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:13:35.080714+08:00","text":"但是說實在，我們已經講了很多次，其實作為在野黨，絕對比執政黨更想審預算，我雖然不\n好用所謂的磨刀霍霍啦，但是所有在野黨的委員，都希望能夠在預算上面能夠看緊納稅人的荷\n包，然後作一個強而有力的監督者的角色。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-05T14:13:35.380714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:13:44.237857+08:00","text":"在野黨非常想審預算，但是在之前，有幾個包含法\n定的預算到底要不要編列？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-05T14:13:44.537857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:13:45.680714+08:00","text":"如何編列？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-05T14:13:45.980714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:14:04.837857+08:00","text":"說實在到目前為止，我們沒有聽到一個很明確、具體的\n答復，更不要說如同剛才兩位、書記長跟黃總召所講的，在健保點值跟公糧收購的部分，沒有\n任何的具體答復。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-05T14:14:05.137857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:14:32.280714+08:00","text":"所以我們還是希望行政院，能不能就針對大家關心的議題，能夠有一些比較\n具體的，怎麼樣來做補正跟修正，我們也希望在做這些補正跟修正之後，能夠儘快的讓總預算\n付委，讓我們在野黨的各個委員，也肩負起整個嚴審預算的職責。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-05T14:14:32.580714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:14:34.295000+08:00","text":"以上報告，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:14:34.595000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:14:38.309286+08:00","text":"謝謝王鴻薇首席副書記長發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:14:38.609286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:14:42.323571+08:00","text":"接下來請台灣民眾黨二輪發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-05T14:14:42.623571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:15:10.623571+08:00","text":"我們立場已經說明了，其實我再度的跟院長報告，就黨團協商的現場，我想說儘量避\n免，不要成為好像大家要再進行政治的攻防，我覺得立場清楚就好了，各自對自己所做的政治\n決定向人民負責，我覺得這是民主社會，民主政治就是責任政治。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-05T14:15:10.923571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:15:29.780714+08:00","text":"至於其他的部分，我尊重院\n長等一下指揮的權責，但就我們第二輪發言的部分，我是不是可以得到院長同意，讓第二輪發\n言的時間交給啓楷委員，幫農民講幾句話？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-05T14:15:30.080714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:15:34.937857+08:00","text":"好，還是我們就先聽行政機關的說明，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:15:35.237857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:15:55.809286+08:00","text":"我知道，謝謝國昌委員、總召的提醒，個別有些列席委員，像鍾委員佳濱、張委員啓楷、高\n388\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n金委員等都很關心，但是我想先聽一下行政部門的說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:15:56.109286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:16:07.823571+08:00","text":"秘書長、主計長還有各部會首長，這是最後的黃金 10 分鐘，請大家發言，發言完，我們就要\n休息一下、協商了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:16:08.123571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:16:10.123571+08:00","text":"請龔秘書長發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2024-11-05T14:16:10.423571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:16:48.995000+08:00","text":"行政院的態度是這樣，剛剛很謝謝蔡易餘委員大致上把我們的態度也做了一些說明\n，卓院長在總預算報告的時候也特別提到，基於立法、行政平衡跟互相尊重，期盼兩院共同遵\n守憲法第七十條的憲政原理精神以及預算法第九十一條等原則、規定跟必要的程序，按照這樣\n的預算審查，共同而且唯一的原則，來共同尋找妥適的解方。","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2024-11-05T14:16:49.295000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:17:23.295000+08:00","text":"如果朝野的政黨有這樣共識的話\n，114 年度的禁伐補償經費，行政院可以考量用適當的方式來支應，這個適當的方式剛剛大家都\n提到了，不管是用綜合基金，然後我們再用預算去補這個基金；或者用二備金；或者用追加預\n算，我們都可以接受，這個就看朝野協商結果，我們都可以尊重，大致上是這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2024-11-05T14:17:23.595000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:17:36.166429+08:00","text":"但是院長要\n我特別的說明，就是立法跟行政互相尊重這件事情還是特別要提到，希望可以達成這樣的共識\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2024-11-05T14:17:36.466429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:18:00.466429+08:00","text":"至於健保這個部分在我們的認知裡面，基本上，我們已經移用公務預算 181 億，如果再加上\n健保總額明年本來就會增加 531 億，所以也超過了七百多億，這個部分我們就讓衛福部來努力\n，朝大家期待的點值方向來走。","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2024-11-05T14:18:00.766429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:18:15.909286+08:00","text":"至於公糧收購的部分，我們也尊重農業部本來就有它的一個想法，就是政策上的想法，行政\n院基本上是尊重的，以上做這樣的說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:18:16.209286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:18:17.923571+08:00","text":"謝謝龔秘書長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:18:18.223571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:18:20.223571+08:00","text":"我們請陳主計長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-05T14:18:20.523571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:18:38.809286+08:00","text":"院長，我們也是在基於立法、行政平衡和互相尊重，然後共同遵守憲法第七十條的\n精神和預算法第九十一條的原則下，我們能夠共同研商出一個妥適的解方。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-05T14:18:39.109286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:19:01.109286+08:00","text":"這一個適當的解方\n，上次我也一再的談到，第一個，我用基金併決算，然後以總預算將來做填補的一個方式來處\n理；第二個，也可以動支第二預備金；第三個，以追加預算的方式來辦理，以上說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:19:01.409286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:19:03.123571+08:00","text":"謝謝陳主計長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:19:03.423571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:19:05.995000+08:00","text":"請衛福部邱部長發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-11-05T14:19:06.295000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:19:13.152143+08:00","text":"簡要報告，首先感謝各黨團委員這麼關心醫療環境的改善。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-11-05T14:19:13.452143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:19:57.166429+08:00","text":"站在我過去擔任多年的醫\n師公會理事長，不管是全聯會全國的或者臺北市，還有我也當了七、八年的立委，現在很多委\n員前輩們在質詢的時候，都拿出我以前講的話來 review 一下，所以我覺得我們的心都是一樣，\n要把醫療環境改善，讓醫療工作同仁的待遇，他們的專業受到尊重，人民的健康得到保障，還\n有醫療院所可以順利地經營，這些部分我想我們的心都是一致的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-11-05T14:19:57.466429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:20:33.466429+08:00","text":"我在這邊還是要跟各位報告，我覺得行政院已經拿出最大的誠意，有史以來有了幾個突破的\n點，以前我們健保用了很多，其實是公務預算的事情，卻被弄到、塞到健保，在這一次幾乎全\n部被清出來，這有可能是二、三十年來第一次非常大的突破，我覺得行政院真的很願意幫忙，\n這樣的話讓總額的空間就會多很多。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-11-05T14:20:33.766429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:20:59.195000+08:00","text":"另外，當然在「健康台灣」的領域裡面也補了很多很多，\n譬如說我們過去四癌的篩檢還有成人健檢，我想大家都接受過，以前可能 400 塊，現在的預算\n是可以到 800 塊，所以很多醫院、醫療院所都願意更加積極來創造人民更大的健康。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-11-05T14:20:59.495000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:22:02.066429+08:00","text":"還有一個更重要的，總額的協商那是很重要，總額的成長高推估率 5.5%，這也是創有史以來\n389\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n最高的，等於說這個部分可以多了大概 531 億，這個跟公務預算又是另外一回事，是在總額裡\n面的成長，最感謝國發會，其實行政院也很幫忙，我們也可以用，我們當時提出來等於是最高\n的，所以是有史以來最高，大概多了五百多億，再加上剛剛提的，支出面……有關行政院挹注\n健保財務大概有 336 億，其中有些是到安全基金那個……我們現在是講支出面，公務預算大概\n提供 181 億，然後加上總額的 531 億，所以大概有 712 億可以用在支出面。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-11-05T14:22:02.366429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:23:42.366429+08:00","text":"我也跟醫界的朋友\n講，大家很感謝各位委員的幫忙，因為總額制度是一種……不是說你說一就一、二就二，它是\n可以來協商，總額有 6 區在協商，所以每一個區域有每一區域的制度，我們只要給他的資源夠\n，然後他們再好好的節省，因為我們健保是大家所滿意的，就是不要讓人民負擔太大，但是弱\n者可以得到照顧，這個連醫者的情懷都能夠堅持、都能夠了解，所以他們很願意在這樣的基礎\n之下，很努力都用在刀口上，在行政院已經支持這麼多的情況之下，把人民的健康做好，把點\n值也必須儘量節省在醫療體系的改革之上、努力之下，讓點值能夠提升到我們大家的一個共識\n，我想這樣應該是可以激發各位的照顧……各位的支持、行政院的支持，應該可以激發……還\n有一個很重要的就是我們有 60 億的深耕計畫，這 60 億的深耕計畫也是非常特別，這個是創造\n醫界的智慧，讓工作模式怎麼樣在工作環境照顧護理人員，或照顧各種醫事人員的一個創作，\n這個部分也是非常難得的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-11-05T14:23:42.666429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:24:02.952143+08:00","text":"我覺得我們醫界現在應該在各位的幫忙之下，擁有最好的再出發的\n一個基礎跟資源，所以我們很希望能夠，這樣的情況之下，讓醫界有這樣的資源，我想就可以\n做更多的事情。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-11-05T14:24:03.252143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:24:04.966429+08:00","text":"以上報告，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:24:05.266429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:24:12.123571+08:00","text":"邱部長，您這個施政報告講得非常好，重點是可不可以到 0.95？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:24:12.423571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:24:20.709286+08:00","text":"可能大家想聽這個，因為\n我覺得你已經盡了很大力，但有沒有把握到 0.95？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-11-05T14:24:21.009286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:25:09.580714+08:00","text":"報告院長，因為零點九幾其實是管理的定義，我稍微這樣講啦，譬如醫院，我說我就\n訂 0.95，但是在服務量的方面，可能它就會有一定的限制，我要訂 0.95、要訂 1.0 也沒問題啊，\n就是各區……所以總額這個制度就是這樣子，有一個數據，但我覺得是不是資源夠到我們的工\n作同仁應該有的好的環境、有應該有的待遇，還有民眾的健康得到保障，此外我們公務預算另\n外有編癌症新藥基金，這個也是有史以來讓癌症真的需要的人也有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-11-05T14:25:09.880714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:25:23.023571+08:00","text":"所以這些都是福國利民的\n事情，真的都是在各位委員大家支持之下、鼓勵之下，已經有創造一個最好的醫療環境。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-11-05T14:25:23.323571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:25:41.609286+08:00","text":"所以\n上次在協商時我才說，院長、各位委員，就容許給我們一點時間，我們把它創造到點值好，所\n以點值這件事情能不能達到，我們只能講盡力啦，只能講盡力啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-11-05T14:25:41.909286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:26:31.623571+08:00","text":"因為搞不好也可以到達 0.96\n，不一定到 0.95，最重要的是資源夠不夠的問題，做有沒有意義的事情，我身為一個臺大醫學\n院的教授那麼多年，我教出來的學生，就是讓他有資源去做專業的事情，我們不要浪費一毛錢\n，但是不夠的時候，當然也感謝大家再……還有一個是我們不忍心去提升民眾的保費，所以我\n當時比較早期就覺得我們先不要考慮提升民眾的保費，我們行政院自己先提出公務預算，然後\n也給我們在總額裡面最大的空間。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-11-05T14:26:31.923571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:26:55.066429+08:00","text":"我覺得只要管理好的話，其實點值要多少，那只是一個數目\n的處理而已，但是我覺得這樣的資源，讓我們醫界拿著這樣充分的資源趕快去衝，趕快去為人\n民的健康努力，我想這個是我們所期待的，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:26:55.366429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:27:24.223571+08:00","text":"邱部長，容我提醒你一下，上次在這裡協商，你是說給您一年的時間，你一定會全力以赴，\n390\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n講得很讓人……那時候感覺很真情流露，所以您剛剛講時間，我提醒你一下，你講一年的時間\n，你全力去衝，我今天再跟你報告一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-11-05T14:27:24.523571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:27:39.095000+08:00","text":"報告院長，我可以很負責任的願意跟醫界，而且醫界跟我講說他們一定會全力以赴來\n配合這樣的資源，達到大家最好的期望。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:27:39.395000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:27:43.109286+08:00","text":"好，謝謝邱部長誠懇的表述，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:27:43.409286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:27:47.123571+08:00","text":"接下來原住民曾主委請您發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-11-05T14:27:47.423571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:27:50.280714+08:00","text":"謝謝院長、謝謝各位委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-11-05T14:27:50.580714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:28:00.295000+08:00","text":"我想本會的意見就跟主計總處的意見一樣，我們就尊\n重大院最後的決定，謝謝大家。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:28:00.595000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:28:02.309286+08:00","text":"好，謝謝曾主委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:28:02.609286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:28:05.466429+08:00","text":"接下來請農業部陳部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-11-05T14:28:05.766429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:28:07.480714+08:00","text":"院長、各位委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-11-05T14:28:07.780714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:28:15.495000+08:00","text":"有關於公糧的議題，我們目前替代所推的 1 集 2 轉 3 加 3 方案，我\n就不提了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-11-05T14:28:15.795000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:28:35.223571+08:00","text":"我想從農業部的角度去思考這個問題，因為稻米的收購不是純粹百分之百都繳公糧\n，它有兩個部分，一個部分是繳公糧，另外一個部分是由民間的民糧去收購的部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-11-05T14:28:35.523571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:29:12.095000+08:00","text":"所以我們\n當初第一個在考慮的是如果今天公糧提高 5 塊的話，相對於一期作就是 1 公頃多 3 萬塊，然後\n二期作的話，將近大概 2 萬 2,000 塊左右；換句話說，一年的話整個稻穀本身每公頃的價格，它\n的收益提升可以達到 5 萬 2,000 塊左右，這是政府支撐的，可是它只支撐了百分之三十的部分，\n我剛才說的百分之七十都是民糧收購的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-11-05T14:29:12.395000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:29:54.966429+08:00","text":"民糧的收購以這樣子迅速去拉到 5 塊錢這樣一個強度\n的時候，民糧是跟不上的，民糧跟不上的時候，原來民糧的這些農民的契作戶，因為公糧價格\n高的時候，他就轉向公糧過來了；換句話說，公糧本身都是依靠它的品牌、它的稻米品質去支\n撐它的一個收益，當它沒有這樣一個契作的時候，那相對地，整個品牌或者是優質米的數量就\n會降低，我想這是我們第一點考量的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-11-05T14:29:55.266429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:30:28.123571+08:00","text":"第二個部分，我想歷次很多委員也都認同，那就是繳公糧的人通常都會去衝他的產量，然後\n不是那麼 care 他的品質，當他衝產量的時候，整個栽培制度，包括施用比較高的氮肥，特別是\n在氣候變遷之下，當氮肥變高，植株會突長，稍微遇到一點颱風，它就倒伏下來了，他的損失\n會更大！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-11-05T14:30:28.423571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:31:17.280714+08:00","text":"所以整個公糧裡面其實要去思考的，第一個就是我們希望引導所有種稻的人，特別是\n種公糧的人，他能夠有一些重質不重量的習慣，重質不重量的時候，我們公糧未來收的這些產\n品也可以瞬間釋放到市場去，市場也可以當品牌米，我希望民糧跟公糧的稻米品質要一致性，\n這樣的話，兩個水庫在互通的時候，不但能夠確保我們的糧食安全，也可以讓我們的稻米品質\n，包括以後我們拉外銷的時候，也會有更好的一個績效。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-11-05T14:31:17.580714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:31:55.295000+08:00","text":"所以，目前我們所推的政策其實就是去引導原來種公糧的人，嘗試去變成集團產區的契作，\n這樣的一個方式，一方面也能夠讓他去認知到重質不重量的一個種稻觀念的改變，然後對品質\n的改變，希望是透過我們的產品價值去提升他的收益，而不是靠政府直接的一個補貼，這個是\n我想我們一直希望在引導的這樣一個過程。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-11-05T14:31:55.595000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:32:55.880714+08:00","text":"所以我們院長其實也指示得非常明確，就是在我們\n目前 1 集 2 轉 3 加 3 的基礎之下，我們在明年度一定要好好去檢討整體的公糧政策，公糧的政\n策絕對不是只有提高公糧價格這一件事情而已，事實上，它也考慮到整個公糧收購的數量，因\n為我們現在有計畫輔導跟餘糧，甚至於現在因為天然災害，我們又開了一些災害穀，另外就是\n不同的計畫輔導收購有不同的價格，這個價格之間怎麼樣的一個衡平性，還有跟民糧之間的一\n391\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n個衡平性，這個部分我想是需要有一些更精準的數據跟支撐。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-11-05T14:32:56.180714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:33:26.752143+08:00","text":"第三個部分，我想要跟院長跟在座的委員說明一下，我們 100 年提高了 3 塊加 2 塊錢的烘乾\n費以後，其實這幾年來我們推的稻作四選三等相關因素，我們現在的民糧價格其實是遠比 100\n年的價格大概每百臺斤高了將近 100 塊，一百多塊一點，相當於大概 3 塊錢，每公斤相當於 3\n塊錢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-11-05T14:33:27.052143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:33:46.480714+08:00","text":"所以很多人認為我們在推的集團產區是沒有效果的，可是我們可以用實際的數據去跟委\n員說明，其實比照一下我們整個稻穀的價格，每 1 公斤大概提高了 3 塊錢，沒有錯！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-11-05T14:33:46.780714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:34:10.495000+08:00","text":"這個 3 塊\n錢大概都是用民糧去撐的；所以換句話說，民糧的價格去支撐才是讓我們產業永續經營的最重\n要目標，利用公糧的價格去支撐的時候，我想我們每一段時間就會面臨再一次的循環、再一次\n的循環。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-11-05T14:34:10.795000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:34:52.223571+08:00","text":"最後一個我要跟各位委員說明的就是，其實稻米的部分，我剛才說的，大概百分之七十是民\n糧在繳的，特別在東部地區有非常好的有機米，這些優質的米，其實他們都不繳公糧的，所以\n他們也擔心，當我公糧一拉高了以後，就回到我第一點的論述，這些原來契作的就放棄了他原\n來的有機栽培，他放棄了他原來的這些契作，他乾脆就繳公糧，他的價格會比較好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-11-05T14:34:52.523571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:35:05.952143+08:00","text":"所以這是\n從農業部的角度去看整個稻作的產業，我希望這個稻作產業是需要去進步的，大概是用這樣的\n一個方式。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-11-05T14:35:06.252143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:35:43.395000+08:00","text":"所以我才會說，也懇請各位委員支持，就是在我們現在的基礎之下，讓我們明年度\n有一整年的時間能夠去思考一下公糧收購的整個制度，我們重新去檢討，我們絕對不會廢除公\n糧制度，但是公糧的整個細部規劃跟制度，包括公糧後面的外銷跟拉力來講，是可以去做調整\n的，這是我們院長也一直要求我們這樣做的，以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:35:43.695000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:35:52.552143+08:00","text":"謝謝各位列席的官員，也都發言完畢，我想我們先休息 10 分鐘，我們來討論一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:35:52.852143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:35:53.995000+08:00","text":"謝謝，\n休息。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:35:54.295000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:35:57.152143+08:00","text":"休息（18 時 36 分）\n繼續開會（19 時 4 分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:35:57.452143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:36:08.595000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部，請坐，我們先唸一下暫時的一個協商結論，請各位黨團幹部能夠仔細聽一下\n，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:36:08.895000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:36:12.037857+08:00","text":"「時間：113 年 11 月 5 日（星期二）下午 6 時","quality":0},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2024-11-05T14:36:12.337857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:36:48.623571+08:00","text":"紅樓 302 會議室\n協商主題：研商「114 年度中央政府總預算案」及「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 5 期特別\n預算案」相關事宜\n決定事項：\n一、為維護國會尊嚴，針對原住民禁伐補償、公糧收購及健保點值等預算編列事宜，\n於 11 月 7 日（星期四）以前，由行政院院長邀請本院在野黨黨團、執政黨黨團會\n面，表示處理上開預算解決方案及誠意。","quality":0},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2024-11-05T14:36:48.923571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:37:12.352143+08:00","text":"二、各黨團同意有關 114 年度中央政府總預算案及中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 5 期特\n別預算案之各項提議均保留送院會依提案先後順序進行處理，並定於 11 月 8 日（\n星期五）列入院會議程，於討論事項前處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2024-11-05T14:37:12.652143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:37:18.937857+08:00","text":"」\n392\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n請問大家的意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-05T14:37:19.237857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:37:22.380714+08:00","text":"不好意思，主席，可以發言嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-05T14:37:22.680714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:37:51.823571+08:00","text":"就院長所預擬的這個協商結論，第二點是說兩個案子依先後順序進行處理，就是民進\n黨提一個希望付委審查的案，然後國民黨團也提出一個案，您這邊押的時間是禮拜五列入院會\n議程，也就是禮拜五來表決，這好像跟國民黨黨團的意見不一樣。喔，好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-05T14:37:52.123571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:38:07.266429+08:00","text":"院長，這個書面有一個錯誤，我們剛剛提的雙方協商，是希望在今天就做一個處理，\n不是 11 月 8 號，今天就對我們各自的提案做一個處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-05T14:38:07.566429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:38:09.852143+08:00","text":"包括民進黨的提案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-05T14:38:10.152143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:38:18.437857+08:00","text":"對，包括民進黨的，還有民眾黨的提案，今天我們就做一個處理，以上，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-05T14:38:18.737857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:38:30.166429+08:00","text":"對，對於那個處理的方式，我們會有一個正式的提案，反正大家都留下來了嘛，今天\n就把它處理一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-11-05T14:38:30.466429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:38:50.752143+08:00","text":"跟各位黨鞭報告，如果朝野協商結論大家目前有共識，等一下院會就要來進行有關總\n預算案還有前瞻特別預算案各黨團及委員所提出的提議，依提議先後順序來進行表決。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-11-05T14:38:51.052143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:39:11.052143+08:00","text":"我跟大\n家講，院會的處理方式等一下就是報告院會，現在繼續開會，處理總預算案跟特別預算的後續\n事宜，先處理總預算案的部分，請宣讀各黨團的提議，依先後來進行處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-11-05T14:39:11.352143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:39:33.066429+08:00","text":"目前民進黨所提的\n總預算案，就是正常，就是付委，這個要大家有共識，就這樣處理；接下來再處理民眾黨的提\n案，因為現在民眾黨還沒提，民眾黨如果提……國民黨有提了，那總預算就這樣處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-11-05T14:39:33.366429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:39:40.795000+08:00","text":"這個總\n預算處理完之後，就依哪個黨團的提議通過，做一個決定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-11-05T14:39:41.095000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:40:20.237857+08:00","text":"接下來繼續處理特別預算案部分，\n特別預算案部分感覺上大家如果現在就有共識，就可以簽出一個協商結論，等一下協商結論唸\n完，這個特別預算案就不用表決了，還要用大家共同提議，這要看大家要不要簽，如果要，我\n們現在就可以擬特別預算的協商結論，就簽了，特別預算就是依協商結論處理了，然後今天的\n院會就可以順利的散會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-11-05T14:40:20.537857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:40:27.109286+08:00","text":"星期五的院會草案就是另外一個問題了，大概是這樣子。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:40:27.409286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:40:35.980714+08:00","text":"現在高處長是分兩部分，麻煩等一下請各黨團幹部發言，可以加入討論。請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-05T14:40:36.280714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:40:50.566429+08:00","text":"我想確認一下，先處理我們自己的部分，就是第二點，等會兒依提案的先後順序，在\n稍後的院會來進行處理，這是第一件事情。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-05T14:40:50.866429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:40:56.866429+08:00","text":"剛剛高處長的說明是先處理總預算的部分對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-05T14:40:57.166429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:41:35.737857+08:00","text":"然後特別預算，大家如果可以加列第三點，因為剛剛院長也有一個很好的提議，就讓前瞻特別\n預算分頭去處理，就是可以付委了，因為爭取時間啦，其他總預算還卡著，大家再持續協商的\n過程，其實前瞻 703 億先審，我們非常支持，如果可以加列第三點，就前瞻基礎建設 703 億的\n特別預算可以開始付委審查，第三點如果可以預擬，希望可以加列。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-05T14:41:36.037857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:42:09.466429+08:00","text":"393\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n那我補充一下，有關第一點，因為這跟剛剛國民黨團的提案也有一些相關，其實也是一個準\n備動作，就是「為維護國會尊嚴」，其實應該是行政、立法互動的彼此尊重，針對這三件編列\n的事宜，您這邊是希望由行政院卓院長再邀請各黨團去會面，再開一次會？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-05T14:42:09.766429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:42:22.337857+08:00","text":"是這樣子很明確要\n請卓院長邀請各黨團，第一個，要看各黨團願不願意，第二個，當然因為行政院代表不在了\n……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-05T14:42:22.637857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:42:36.923571+08:00","text":"就是這個部分，我們再確認一下，因為如果這是大家協商的共識，當然院長也應當配\n合來辦理啦，只是這看看各黨團的意願。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-05T14:42:37.223571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:42:41.509286+08:00","text":"我希望第一句話「維護國會尊嚴」，好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-05T14:42:41.809286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:42:46.952143+08:00","text":"「國會尊\n嚴以及行政、立法互動的平等」好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-05T14:42:47.252143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:42:49.252143+08:00","text":"大家對話這樣子。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-11-05T14:42:49.552143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:42:59.266429+08:00","text":"是不是我再把它加一個第三點，然後大家再休息、溝通一下，再看看要不要簽，這樣\n子？","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-11-05T14:42:59.566429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:43:02.137857+08:00","text":"我加一個第三點下去。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-05T14:43:02.437857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:43:04.152143+08:00","text":"主席，就加下去……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-11-05T14:43:04.452143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:43:06.166429+08:00","text":"加第三點下去……","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-05T14:43:06.466429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:43:08.180714+08:00","text":"不要再協商了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-05T14:43:08.480714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:43:10.195000+08:00","text":"第三點 OK 啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-05T14:43:10.495000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:43:12.780714+08:00","text":"表決時間、處理時間……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:43:13.080714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:43:18.795000+08:00","text":"剛才我們高處長所報告的，國民黨團沒有意見嘛？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-05T14:43:19.095000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:43:32.523571+08:00","text":"由院長邀請這點，我們沒有意見，但是前瞻這部分，我們是認為要一併處理，我們有\n意見，如果今天要通過，我們有意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-05T14:43:32.823571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:43:40.823571+08:00","text":"前瞻的部分，我們還是認為跟總預算一起來付委，就不\n要分開啦！對啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-05T14:43:41.123571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:43:42.837857+08:00","text":"不用列第三點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-05T14:43:43.137857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:43:49.995000+08:00","text":"所以就不用列了，就是在這張，我們就想得很清楚，我們希望……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-11-05T14:43:50.295000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:43:52.009286+08:00","text":"就是第二點就……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-05T14:43:52.309286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:43:53.737857+08:00","text":"對，一起處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-05T14:43:54.037857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:43:55.752143+08:00","text":"一樣列第三點……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-11-05T14:43:56.052143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:43:57.052143+08:00","text":"一樣列？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-05T14:43:57.352143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:43:58.495000+08:00","text":"一樣列啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-05T14:43:58.795000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:44:01.366429+08:00","text":"一樣列第三點就可以。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-11-05T14:44:01.666429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:44:11.952143+08:00","text":"那就是總預算的提議均保留送院會處理，特別預算各黨團同意就交財委會去處理？沒有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-11-05T14:44:12.252143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:44:14.252143+08:00","text":"沒有，剛剛第三點……","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-05T14:44:14.552143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:44:15.695000+08:00","text":"第三點啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-11-05T14:44:15.995000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:44:17.423571+08:00","text":"第三點要加……","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-05T14:44:17.723571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:44:21.437857+08:00","text":"第三點沒有關係，就是總共三點……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-05T14:44:21.737857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:44:26.023571+08:00","text":"這是院長的好意，大家可以思量看看。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-05T14:44:26.323571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:44:49.466429+08:00","text":"總預算大家關切的部分，總預算可以再溝通，\n394\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 88 期 黨團協商紀錄\n但是前瞻只剩下最後一期了，703 億，先讓它付委審查，大家也爭取我們嚴格把關預算的空間跟\n時間，這勞煩大家可以支持。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:44:49.766429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:44:52.623571+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部請坐，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-05T14:44:52.923571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:45:00.352143+08:00","text":"我們經過溝通，現在預擬一個黨團協商結論，請各位黨團幹部仔","quality":0},{"speaker":"細聆聽：\n「時間","start":"2024-11-05T14:45:00.652143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:45:03.223571+08:00","text":"113 年 11 月 5 日（星期二）下午 6 時","quality":0},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2024-11-05T14:45:03.523571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:45:40.952143+08:00","text":"紅樓 302 會議室\n協商主題：研商「114 年度中央政府總預算案」及「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 5 期特別\n預算案」相關事宜\n決定事項：\n一、為立法、行政兩院和諧互動，針對原住民禁伐補償、公糧收購及健保點值等預算\n編列事宜，於 11 月 7 日（星期四）以前，由行政院院長邀請本院在野黨黨團、執\n政黨黨團會面，表示處理上開預算解決方案及誠意。","quality":0},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2024-11-05T14:45:41.252143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:45:52.680714+08:00","text":"二、各黨團同意有關 114 年度中央政府總預算案之各項提議均保留送院會依提案先後順\n序進行處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2024-11-05T14:45:52.980714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:46:06.980714+08:00","text":"三、各黨團同意有關中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 5 期特別預算案之各項提議均保留\n送院會依提案先後順序進行處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2024-11-05T14:46:07.280714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:46:10.995000+08:00","text":"」\n請問各位黨團幹部，有沒有意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2024-11-05T14:46:11.295000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:46:19.580714+08:00","text":"（無）沒有意見，我們現在簽字完畢之後，定 7 點 40 分進\n院會進行表決，謝謝大家。","quality":0},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2024-11-05T14:46:19.880714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-05T14:46:21.023571+08:00","text":"（散會 19 時 21 分）","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}