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王志偉"},{"start":2194.83,"end":2199.632,"text":"交通部觀光署副署長林信任運輸監理師檢任記者王基周"},{"start":2224.502,"end":2232.548,"text":"那我先因為稍微嘛先要講講講參考參這個花言來跟大家報告今天的言語喔"},{"start":2235.58,"end":2260.051,"text":"今天我們齊集討論這個是國安層次的問題臺灣在面對少子化、高齡化的人口轉型社會相關的法規、制度、產業結構都需要因應的審視過去的結構可能奠基在每年有三、四十萬新生兒的報道來思考"},{"start":2260.987,"end":2278.144,"text":"那現階段臺灣生不到一年13萬人過去70年代的時候我們的平均餘命是60幾歲現在已經活到81歲我們一直說臺灣這片土地孕育了2350萬人"},{"start":2281.747,"end":2309.309,"text":"2070可能我們臺灣只能剩下1500萬人而且大多數是在65歲以上的老人2070應該是預估不過我們文化會的預估常常都是錯的我們預估65歲以上跟65歲以下是一半一半不過2070我們全部都死光了"},{"start":2310.543,"end":2327.039,"text":"我們不得不承認,過去政府努力的少子高齡化的因應政策,效果不彰生育率低,高齡就業也低,台灣沒有真正的等骨,等不過,所以現在要怎麼把他送到等骨去過"},{"start":2328.553,"end":2344.662,"text":"台灣在這一波人口轉型的危機上各個產業如果還是在過去人口結構的基礎的思維政策的概念產業結構下恐怕短期危機海嘯就會到來"},{"start":2345.723,"end":2364.415,"text":"目前面對百業都缺工的產業危機尤其是技術人員、教育機、學校、機構陸續倒閉的危機高齡私人照護社會的沉重負擔我們吳春成委員"},{"start":2365.476,"end":2369.745,"text":"他提出來的《壯世代政策與產業發展促進法》草案是在關鍵時刻提出來的"},{"start":2376.845,"end":2405.988,"text":"長期要帖讓行政單位有個法源一致由行政院來組織各部會投入更多的資源制定因應對策積極研發來因應未來的發展改變過去臨時編組的政策推動也推翻社會對55歲以上的人口結果轉型有更積極的看法"},{"start":2407.668,"end":2434.413,"text":"法要周全,要各方的意見來完善也要社會的共識當然正反面都有今天衛行委員會召開這個正式的公聽會也請行政部門一起聽聽專家民間的意見也請在座的專家能提出具體的政策想法不要打高空放炮而已,沒有用各位都在為台灣的未來台灣的前途來貢獻希望大家踴躍的發言謝謝大家"},{"start":2442.005,"end":2443.405,"text":"臺北醫學大學名譽教授韓柏慎"},{"start":2473.872,"end":2476.215,"text":"那我們先請勞動部代表先報告"},{"start":2486.89,"end":2508.98,"text":"好 謝謝主席蘇委員 在座我們陳委員還有吳委員 IT現場所有的學者專家跟各位與會的先進朋友大家早安大家好那今天呢 衛房委員會召開的這個有關於壯世代的這個產業政策發展部分勞動部就以下的幾個問題來做一個報告那第一個部分呢"},{"start":2510.366,"end":2527.364,"text":"關於這個超高齡人口結構變遷下臺灣是否在衛福、勞動、產業、科技、金融、教育、數位、文化等各領域具有改變高齡政策思維的需求的部分我們做以下的說明那第一部分呢根據"},{"start":2528.525,"end":2545.461,"text":"國家發展委員會中華民國人口推估從2024到2070年報告顯示我國的工作年齡人口自104年達到最高峰1737萬以後即開始減少那在113年我們的工作人口預估是1617萬到了159年就會減少為660萬人到750萬人之間"},{"start":2553.368,"end":2564.217,"text":"在113年我們45歲到64歲這部分占工作年齡人口的比例預估是44.8%但是到了159年預計將會上升到49.4%到55.9%中高齡很顯然會成為未來臺灣勞動市場的主力"},{"start":2574.87,"end":2604.09,"text":"第二部分為了因應降低工作人口減少的衝擊活化中高齡及高齡者人力資本提升其勞動參與勞動部近年來重要工作之一就是中高齡及高齡者就業促進法以下簡稱中高齡就業專法我們從109年12月4日開始實施為了積極落實中高齡就業專法提高中高齡勞動參與促進高齡者再就業建構友善環境等等的目標"},{"start":2604.93,"end":2605.271,"text":"政策及產業發展"},{"start":2630.563,"end":2658.209,"text":"去年5月1日 會商10個部會 訂定《中高齡者及高齡者就業促進計畫》這個計畫從2023年到2025年 我們採取分齡分策略並穩定在職者就業 促進失業者重返職場 跟支持退休後再就業等多方面的規劃共同倡議中高齡者及高齡者 繼續留在職場跟再就業"},{"start":2659.529,"end":2679.498,"text":"第4個部分,勞動部也持續關注當前整個勞動情勢,讓我們調整相關法令,配合113年7月31日我們修正公布《中高齡就業專法》的部分條文,將推動部分公司的工作模式以及延緩退休納入就業促進計畫"},{"start":2681.219,"end":2694.819,"text":"並擴大退休者在就業這樣的一個準備措施的適用對象同時我們也結合各部會共同開發中高齡跟高齡者他的產業跟就業機會至於第二個大問題"},{"start":2696.161,"end":2710.436,"text":"也就是原本的高齡政策大部分是屬於衛福領域在新人口結構下的這個政策發展是否會出現瓶頸是否需要其他部會來政策協力呢這部分我們分兩部分來說明那第一個"},{"start":2711.786,"end":2737.541,"text":"我們會整合部會資源共同推動高齡政策那行政院已經在110年的9月27號合併高齡社會的白皮書那同時在111年的11月10日我們正式合併因應超高齡社會的對策方案他是從112年到115年邀集了15個部會共同推動345項的重要工作那總共投入逾1200億的資源"},{"start":2741.737,"end":2760.588,"text":"行政院的社會福利推動委員會成立高齡社會白筆書的專案小組,定期召開會議,就高齡重要議題進行研商,希望透過公私協力,跨域合作,回應高齡者的多元需求,促進整體社會的共榮與永續發展"},{"start":2764.089,"end":2783.961,"text":"各部會也配合前開行政院的方案﹐積極落實推動高齡相關措施﹐從各方面向全面保障高齡者的權益﹐並持續關注跟延伸高齡重要政策﹐廣納社會各界意見與調整各項措施﹐故在政策執行尚無瓶頸或自然難行之處﹐同時﹐"},{"start":2785.882,"end":2803.485,"text":"我們為了強化推動中高齡政策行政院目前正規劃新高齡政策方案整合14個部會辦理76項工作以部會協力的方式打造友善跟引導性的環境以支持中高齡社會中持續貢獻跟回饋那最後一個部分"},{"start":2804.588,"end":2833.462,"text":"第三個大體行政委員目前透過政務委員會來政務委員推動委員會的方式進行壯世代政治的相關協調機制那是否需要進一步強化立法運作呢這部分我跟各位委員報告中高齡就業專法的目的為促進中高齡及高齡者就業以就禁止年齡歧視再職者穩定就業跟促進失業者重返職場以及支持退休後再就業等各個面向予以立定應辦的事項"},{"start":2834.062,"end":2854.808,"text":"同時也結合跨部會推動各項專案計畫我們建議優先落實中高齡就業專法的各項工作持續滾動檢討精進中高齡就業專法法治跟各項的措施同時透過多元的管道加強推廣跟創意協助打造友善中高齡跟高齡者的友善職場環境以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":2864.807,"end":2887.725,"text":"好 我們繼續我們原則上是請學者專家優先來講那我們的立法院的委員我們就穿插這樣的話才能上 才有達到這個目的我們立法院委員天天都在講所以呢 意願一定給大家"},{"start":2888.632,"end":2904.988,"text":"那我們學者專家如果要調整發言順序要來這邊跟我們告知那再補介紹我們麥義貞委員我們行政院長很關心你啦行政院長一直在關心你啦好等級會議"},{"start":2912.389,"end":2939.398,"text":"部會及寫者﹑專家首提之相關書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報永久保存張其凱委員也到了好 謝謝林國成委員好 那我們就開始"},{"start":2941.994,"end":2942.476,"text":"開始發言 與會人員發言前"},{"start":2946.571,"end":2973.459,"text":"請我先告第一個寫者專家跟本院的委員發言時間6分鐘請把握時間為警報方便寫者專家發言請自主席台的右側發言原則上由寫者專家先行依簽到順序發言委員主要如果要發言大家簽一下簽一下我用穿插的全部"},{"start":2975.256,"end":2994.168,"text":"人員發言結束後再請行政機關做整體回應我們現在沿著上市10點半左右休息10分鐘我們現在請第一個登記發言的學者專家第一位是東海大學社會學系許甘林教授"},{"start":2997.828,"end":3014.842,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位新晉大家好我是東海社會系許甘霖然後謝謝今天有這個機會來對這個法案發表一點意見兩年前吳春城委員的這本書提出壯世代的概念然後引起很大的迴響我個人也收益博多"},{"start":3015.663,"end":3039.652,"text":"然後那個底下就3點對當這樣的一個概念要變成一個法案它可能涉及的問題提出一點粗淺的看法第一點就是有關於壯世代年齡範圍認定的這個問題吳委員在書中提的因為在不同的MINOR提的年齡不大一樣然後像在很多人在引述的時候像比如說那個就是商業週刊的調查他引述的是45歲以上"},{"start":3040.538,"end":3040.758,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3059.873,"end":3060.213,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3078.73,"end":3089.957,"text":"臺灣經濟發展的過程當中其實他們的生命歷程然後是相當的不一樣的也就是說他們本身的意志性已經是相當大的這是第一個有關於您認定的這個問題"},{"start":3092.048,"end":3117.666,"text":"第2個是有關於壯世代這個異質性的問題即使是同一個世代也因為性別、族群、城鄉或者等等其他的因素而使得每一個人的就是每個人的那個具體的社會處境跟他的具體的需求不大一樣所以那個像就是我們像比如說我們在X世代、Y世代、Z世代你很難就針對這個世代給他一個政策一定是針對"},{"start":3119.007,"end":3147.506,"text":"比較具有具體處境的這個群體給予適當的這個政策然後那個就是所以呢這個壯世代涵蓋太多異質性的群體他們有相當不同的具體的需求應該有相當具體不同的對應的這個政策齁如果說都把它放在一個政策當中當作一個目標對象的話可能也會有一些那個就是實用性的這個問題第三個是有關於蠻重要的是世代正義的問題齁"},{"start":3148.666,"end":3165.038,"text":"吳委員在那個就是書中也提到說這一群人大概掌握了臺灣三分之二以上的財富這是一個相當相當重要的估計這樣子的估計跟中研院社會所那個林宗鴻那個就是研究員跟其他學者合作做出來的結果大概一樣"},{"start":3165.418,"end":3193.953,"text":"也就是說大概現在的55歲以上的這一群他們掌握臺灣太多的財富跟我們的下一個世代稱之為崩世代然後有非常非常明顯的在首德或者各方面相當大的落差我們現在已經有一個世代很明確的標出來叫做崩世代這些人不願意生或者沒有能力生或者也不願意結婚沒有能力結婚他才是造成我們少子化的一個最主要的社會因素那今天"},{"start":3194.713,"end":3221.526,"text":"我們大概也不大容易再升了嘛對不對所以要解決少子化的這個問題其實重點不在我們身上是在現在的崩世代的身上所以我個人認為就是說那個反而應該就是把公共資源挹注在這些崩世代的這個身上我覺得那個就是像各種不同的讓他們願意結婚願意升我覺得這個東西可能才是比較切實一點的話然後那個就是就是"},{"start":3224.007,"end":3244.441,"text":"這個《壯促法》希望用那一種就是壯世代來取代老人、銀髮族等負面字眼但是在我不知道這些字眼有多負面這還要討論但是如果說把資源再挹注在這一些掌握主要財富的這個世代身上我擔心這個世代的對立會更加的明確以後壯世代"},{"start":3245.222,"end":3245.362,"text":"主席"},{"start":3269.176,"end":3276.456,"text":"謝謝許教授那接續我們請淡江大學經濟學系蔡明芳教授發言"},{"start":3287.952,"end":3297.118,"text":"主席還有各位在場委員、各位我們政府體系的這些官員大家好那我想今天非常謝謝有這個主席舉辦這場公聽會,讓我們有機會來這裡對這個壯世代做一個討論"},{"start":3304.002,"end":3321.911,"text":"因為壯世代這件事情一看到的時候,我會覺得跟我有關因為我身體很壯,我以為是壯世代但後來才知道壯世代其實是跟年齡有關那當我們要看這個問題的時候,其實我想剛剛勞動部許次長他也有特別說明過"},{"start":3323.272,"end":3348.345,"text":"因為我在看這個議題的時候我就去google我就去找了一些我們政府在不同的高齡化或超高齡化的社會之下那他所提出來一些政策那現在第一個你可以看到就是剛剛許次長也有提到中高齡及這個高齡者的就業促進法這個大家其實一進去看那就可以知道說他有對中高齡有定義有對高齡者有定義"},{"start":3348.965,"end":3375.977,"text":"那其實大家可以去看看說在壯世代的這個年齡定義上是不是跟這些有 overlap如果他是有重複的話那有沒有必要再去立一個新法或者是說在既有的這個促進法下面去好好的把裡面相關的適合未來的法條好好去把它修改我想這個會是比較好的因為既有的已經在做了嘛那為什麼要再立一部新的特別是現在我們都知道剛剛主席也提到了"},{"start":3376.317,"end":3389.858,"text":"在立法院現在立法是非常不容易的所以我覺得這個是大家好好思考因為你有這樣的想法可不可執行我覺得這個是我們國會那大家好好去思考的那第二個部分"},{"start":3391.389,"end":3408.469,"text":"就金融而言其實大家可能對金管會不是太熟悉但金管會其實在這幾年它也有所謂的金融服務業的公平代課原則或許許多的委員在過去服務選民的時候在前陣子所謂房地產問題的時候也有接到很多的選民服務說可不可以幫他貸款"},{"start":3409.827,"end":3426.366,"text":"那金管會就金融服務業的公平代課原則上面他其實也有提出一些特別對於這個財務弱勢的族群那第一個我們問的是請問壯世代是不是財務弱勢的族群如果他不是財務弱勢的族群"},{"start":3426.846,"end":3446.96,"text":"他是財務強勢的族群為什麼壯世代我們要照顧他我們在場也有非常多的記者朋友那也有可能是面對所謂的財務弱勢但記者朋友剛出社會的時候很年輕只有22歲就出入職場但是他不是壯世代不是因為你身材壯就可以變壯世代那是有年齡定義的"},{"start":3447.921,"end":3471.878,"text":"好 那就經濟部來看的話其實你也可以看到產業方面你只要上網看一下產業人才發展資訊網經濟部裡面他就有整理不同部會他的一些資源讓大家可以進去看那如果這些資源整合不夠其實這是可以討論的但是你說要特別再用一個壯世代是不是適合我覺得這個是大家要思考的好 所以從上面你其實可以看到"},{"start":3472.779,"end":3490.512,"text":"我們在許多的立法或法規上面其實就有提出很多不同年齡層的一些相關的幫助或輔助的這些方案那如果你現在又要再推出一個新的法案是不是我覺得這個就我們可以好好來思考一下"},{"start":3491.152,"end":3519.241,"text":"那如果在這個我裡面寫到的高齡的這個就業來看的話目前政府部門都已經有不同的相對應的政策了那並非僅有在衛福或者因為我拿到的這個提綱是說好像都集中在衛福但是其實不是集中在衛福因為政府本來就是跨部會必須要去服務整個全體的臺灣人民那我覺得在跨部會上面確實你都可以找得到這些相關的這個可以依循的方案"},{"start":3519.941,"end":3539.519,"text":"那壯世代政策這個提綱之一我想主席剛剛有特別提到有沒有進一步立法這個運作的這個方式我覺得是沒有那所以最後一個我想我的這個結論就是我們經濟學常強調資源的投入要有效率資源的投入是要把餅做大"},{"start":3540.877,"end":3563.787,"text":"資源的投入不是只有讀後某一些作品的人所以資源的投入不是疊床加屋如果大家要照顧真正的壯世代不是讓某一個世代的資源變壯而是要讓整個世代真的可以讓台灣可以永續經營的走下去第二個合理性壯世代的工作環境有比較差嗎"},{"start":3564.895,"end":3591.903,"text":"我想在座也有很多年輕的這些朋友那你覺得你們的工作環境比較差還是這個現在這個比較長者的工作環境比較差大家已經在當官的人你覺得過去的人他的工作環境比較差還是我現在面對不要說壯世代我面對爛世代我一天到晚就要被爛就要被交辦任務我的工作環境其實在變差的那為什麼要照顧所謂的壯世代我也可以定義一個爛世代"},{"start":3592.583,"end":3614.883,"text":"所以這個定義定義不完那最後一個我想不能根據所謂的額外定義一個世代然後你就來說這個要拿資源我覺得這個是不合理的因為你這個定義一個世代就可以拿資源那不同的世代大家都可以定義一個世代出來那最後結果就是怎麼樣就是讓某一個世代就會變成領雙薪"},{"start":3616.064,"end":3629.222,"text":"大家都覺得好像領雙新不太好但是你現在定義壯世代讓資源變壯就是在領雙新那第二個就是扭曲資源的配置我想剛剛前面有一位學者也有提到就是創造更多的台灣繃世代為什麼會這樣子"},{"start":3631.425,"end":3647.661,"text":"崩世代的名詞遠比壯世代這個出來已經久很多了當你把資源又投入在更多的一群已經拿到很多資源的身上你只會讓大家更不享生剛剛勞動部許智商也有特別提到"},{"start":3648.342,"end":3665.191,"text":"因為你高齡者這是用比例來定義這個高齡化的社會的問題你讓大家更不敢生那當然後面的這個高齡化的比例就更為嚴重所以我覺得這應該不是政府期待的你去創造一個政策出來讓台灣的高齡社會更為嚴重以上是我的發言謝謝"},{"start":3667.694,"end":3682.204,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝我們蔡英芳教授講得非常好至少我覺得啦 我們現在在稱65歲以上的人叫做高齡什麼長青 什麼老年 什麼長者"},{"start":3683.525,"end":3686.008,"text":"我們接續請世界公民數位治理基金會董事長陳春山教授"},{"start":3718.982,"end":3736.934,"text":"我想今天的議題是在於剛才有在談定義的問題還有沒有資源分配的問題我想我們跟幾位委員還有很多夥伴談的事實上是一個人才跟產業的價值促進的問題"},{"start":3739.575,"end":3759.227,"text":"而不是在過度保護的問題,不在於強勢讓它更強勢的問題所以以下我想從一個像我自己在財經領域我常常知道有更多的人員跟資源跟能力的manpower可以創造更大的價值,我們怎麼來做所以我想從這個角度一起來思維更大的可能性"},{"start":3760.617,"end":3780.703,"text":"過去像我覺得是壯世代我覺得我身體不壯但是我知道我未來一定要在未來30年在離開這個地球之前我一定要讓對這個社會更有貢獻這是我的目標所以談到壯世代我談的是我怎麼樣更有貢獻我怎麼樣更有價值而不是我要更多的資源"},{"start":3781.343,"end":3807.671,"text":"所以如果我們忘記了這個資源的可能性跟最大的一個空間沒有一個前瞻的管理政策這樣的資源其實是整個社會事實上是浪費太多了我們剛才已經談到65歲以上55歲以上他的繳稅跟資產的貢獻對台灣是很大的但是我們看看剛才各位談到幾位的報告的內容他其實是在說你很被騙你很容易被騙或者是說你要更保護"},{"start":3808.271,"end":3823.788,"text":"我們今天談的這個法案不是在更保護更多的資源而是要把這個資源跟人才能夠產生更大的結果這才是我們這個法案所關心的目標而不是在說你這個已經很資源我要再從預算裡面要更多不是這樣的一個思維"},{"start":3824.429,"end":3838.621,"text":"所以我在談壯世代我記得在全世界我看到各國的各國包括哈佛跟史丹佛大學都把這個東西怎麼樣產生更大的資源往更前瞻的科技來發展而不是在談個別更多的保護"},{"start":3839.562,"end":3859.375,"text":"所以當然更多的保護我不反對,我覺得那個照護、長照我都不反對,但今天我們是談的議題不在於更多的保護而在於更多的可能性,更多的創造這些壯世代還有下一個世代將來變回壯世代,怎麼樣產生更多的資源今天是一個發想的議題,而不是一個更多保護的議題,這是我的一個想法"},{"start":3861.397,"end":3883.253,"text":"我覺得在短期我就覺得真的好好來思考一下這樣的一個可能性我常常在大學教書常常把資源給他們他們就自己發想但是這個資源都非常有限的但是他們能夠產生很大的結果所以我個人建議這樣的議題從人才人口的角度應該每10年我們應該剛才國發會已經做了一些很多的預估我們希望每10年"},{"start":3884.093,"end":3898.382,"text":"就怎麼樣這一塊的人才資源還有他們的財富資源產生更大的社會價值甚至我把它叫做世界公民價值我們要定期的檢討然後同時我們要能夠讓他們能夠更多的檢測跟健康促進"},{"start":3899.122,"end":3922.442,"text":"我自己的媽媽就缺乏一個很好的健康招呼跟促進60歲中風然後90歲往生我們都需要讓她能夠享受更好這個東西我們不需要置業我們只需要能夠更好的政策跟法規我們也希望在台灣的未來的國發基金跟更多的這個產業能夠往H Tech走往高齡熱齡產業走事實上我們今天如果做好了我們不只是照顧台灣"},{"start":3923.623,"end":3949.361,"text":"臺灣可以幫助我們基本上就是希望成為我碰到施政榮董事長他常常講我們能夠做世界人因為我們能夠做大家的朋友所以我們今天所談的議題是一個資源的發揮是一個國際影響力的發揮而不在於更多的保護或是資源的措置所以我們希望這樣的想法是讓下一代也覺得說我將來10年之後20年之後我也要成為這樣的人成為壯世代對這個社會跟對這個世界更有貢獻"},{"start":3952.826,"end":3955.081,"text":"這個東西的前瞻管理政策是需要大家來思考"},{"start":3956.072,"end":3985.612,"text":"所以我期待的是這個法案叫壯世代或是任何法都沒有問題叫基本法叫促進法都沒有問題但是我們需要一個10年的政策在5年前我們跟很多的委員跟很多的朋友談這個議題其實所有的立法政策就是保護就是長照而不是一個資產前瞻的一個管理政策我們覺得這樣的議題一定可以成為一個未來人才跟產業的一個更大的可能性能夠把這樣的可能性成為世界之光"},{"start":3986.193,"end":3988.684,"text":"我們也希望這樣的部分能夠幫助更多人"},{"start":3989.915,"end":4015.923,"text":"所以我個人是覺得我們需要一個前瞻一個管理的思維這個法案叫什麼法案我們都覺得OK它的年齡也可以討論但是最重要是我們一起來思維這樣的促進法案我在財經產業已經快30年40年了我們最近訂亞洲資產的管理有多少法案就是對現有的資源能夠產生更大的價值我的目標是這樣的資源如果只是因為我們小小的想法"},{"start":4016.923,"end":4043.774,"text":"說這個東西已經有了這個東西只是因為更多的保護我想這個思維我們可以再來檢討謝謝各位 謝謝每一個教授都能夠提早結束一分鐘太厲害了好的老師就是不準時上課一定要準時下課接下來我們請李寶進教授政治大學社工系"},{"start":4056.083,"end":4072.246,"text":"主席 蘇委員 各位委員 各位政府機關代表 各位女士先生今天很高興受邀來參加這樣的一個公聽會當然也感佩我們立法委員對這個議題 超高齡社會或高齡社會的關心"},{"start":4073.126,"end":4101.356,"text":"那我今天會有提出四個看法我今天講話的標題是能眼看壯世代是否遮蓋了多元自主長輩的存在作為一個臺灣在教授老人福利高齡社會政策的一個學者我想這個題目事實上是讓我們長輩看不見了把名詞拿掉了就看不到長輩那從人類發展的理論來看人的發展本來就分成了"},{"start":4101.696,"end":4123.103,"text":"由兒期、嬰兒期、幼兒期、兒童期、成年期這個老年期那你今天我們這個法案就是年齡要把它是55到64歲跟65歲一直到現在可能85歲的一群人在一起說這個世代叫壯世代那這樣就是讓我們長輩的主體性看不到"},{"start":4123.763,"end":4151.016,"text":"你用臺灣的老人生活狀況調查報告或者用臺灣的中老年人身心狀況追蹤調查報告我們去分析這兩個世代的想法或者需要是不同的我們都認為身體健康很重要我們也擔心我們的健康沒有人照顧我們也擔心老年的生活夠不夠保障但是你細一步去看是有差異的就是我的分析我去做一個報告看起來"},{"start":4153.217,"end":4175.075,"text":"就是55歲與65歲兩個民眾的比照65歲與55歲的人口群在健康在教育在就業跟健康狀況社會參與跟社會關係都不一樣所以我們今天把他們綁在一起把我們老人不見了變成壯世代我們有更好嗎你們沒有看到我們的需求就不會為我們長輩為我們老人去創造創立法案"},{"start":4180.6,"end":4180.74,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4202.143,"end":4228.408,"text":"有為這件事情不是說我們去參與勞動市場做經濟性貢獻才是有貢獻有為這個字如果用英文字叫productive就是有生產力的或者是有創造性的甚至有人現在用generative就是老人能就有創造對他有意義的活動不是去勞動市場工作對他有意義的工作是畫一幅畫或者寫一首詩或者我去安排一個旅行"},{"start":4228.928,"end":4243.901,"text":"所以這一個經濟性的活動才是對社會有貢獻然後希望所有的壯世代人都要去工作那我覺得這件事情是值得我們再去商討的因為有為老年的意思是說這個活動能夠讓長輩覺得我的生命有意義覺得我個人覺得有價值"},{"start":4250.206,"end":4252.53,"text":"也就是回歸有為老年的終極目標是讓我們長輩的生活品質提高讓我們長輩可以覺得有幸福感這是第二個主張就是我的標題是寫說不是勞動生才具社會關鍵"},{"start":4265.59,"end":4284.512,"text":"壯世代不是工作世代來解讀這個有為老年的這個意義第三個看法是說那要提升老人的生活品質有什麼做呢我們都知道嘛在談論福利國家的討論本來就是有政府部門本來就有家庭部門就有社區部門有這個商業部門有非營利組織部門"},{"start":4285.393,"end":4285.533,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4303.271,"end":4303.291,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4331.135,"end":4332.496,"text":"創造一個名字,把它不見了"},{"start":4360.95,"end":4361.13,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4376.675,"end":4403.82,"text":"非常有自主尊重不同選擇讓社會共融 世代永續發展目前政府有沒有作為一個老人福利的倡導者政府有沒有政策在推 有高齡社會對策白皮書就是還有各種法案長期照顧老人福利法跟你看到所有列出來的法案中高齡就業都是我們應該是認真來推動這些法案而不是在另外一個法"},{"start":4405,"end":4405.28,"text":"謝謝周無天教授"},{"start":4430.218,"end":4430.238,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":4455.837,"end":4471.395,"text":"我想我是財團法人臺北金融研究發展基金會的周無天今天很榮幸有機會來參與今天這樣的一個公聽會我想我今天能夠來參與應該跟我兩年多前有機會"},{"start":4475.765,"end":4475.785,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4494.232,"end":4512.027,"text":"今天我們的主題是超高齡人口結構的變遷下臺灣是否在衛福、勞動、產業、科技、金融、教育、數位、文化等各個領域既有改變高齡政策思維的需求我的答案是是"},{"start":4513.223,"end":4513.243,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4527.697,"end":4541.776,"text":"目前正透過政務委員督導委員會方式進行壯世代政策的相關協調機制是否有需要進一步立法強化運作方式我認為可以好好的考慮這個議題"},{"start":4544.485,"end":4558.43,"text":"那為什麼這樣子有一句話大家一定非常熟悉科技始終來自於人性這是Nokia的一句話講這一句話的人當時他是多麼strong結果才幾年時間他就不見了"},{"start":4560.53,"end":4573.935,"text":"金融始終來自於生活這是我們臺北金融基金會我們走過30年在整理特刊的時候我們感受到的金融跟生活的關係所提出來一句話"},{"start":4575.555,"end":4593.523,"text":"第三 生活離不開理財及金融服務所以我們從金融的角度來談生活尤其是屬於壯世代這個年齡層的生活所需要的大概是這樣這個是我借用吳理事長所主張的概念"},{"start":4596.306,"end":4602.352,"text":"這一個圖片是新聞稿應該是上禮拜左右的資訊這資訊我要強調的一個點是這邊強調是70歲以上的投資人可以開戶投資期貨"},{"start":4609.884,"end":4635.531,"text":"談的是金融年齡的解讀其他所要表達的兩個意涵它確實對於高齡的歧視是不OK的為什麼因為期貨有一個很重要的一個功能那它就是價格的發現者或者我們所說在現貨波動情況之下的風險幣規避風險的一個很重要的工具"},{"start":4636.411,"end":4658.96,"text":"所以這個是一個很具體的一個概念所以我們同樣的要講一件事情在整個年齡往老年化走少子化的情況之下我們的整個環境是改變的透過這樣一個解除他只是讓他一定要理財的那個年長者他也能夠該有的人權"},{"start":4660.02,"end":4688.494,"text":"而不是說因為你年紀大就懷疑他一定判斷不OK那這樣的一個情況我想大家不能接受我是從這個角度來談所以我覺得各個部份同樣的道理可以來思考以往所設定的年齡到一個階段他一定點點點我覺得可以換一個角度來思考因為你我在座當中有很多都已經接近70的人包括在座我"},{"start":4689.494,"end":4703.214,"text":"我們覺得我們還不能做這些事情嗎如果不是的話那我覺得硬生生的規定我認為它不合理就好像我們的駕照在國外來講它是可以到90歲還可以開那這是另外一個有趣的議題"},{"start":4704.761,"end":4723.722,"text":"再來這個是人口結構的一個概念請記住一件事情在1970年跟2040年我們還有15年的時間整個對照來講整個結構的改變是完全不一樣把這個圖形用三角形再框出來是完全不一樣的概念結果你還用現在的思維去因應去處理"},{"start":4725.283,"end":4742.534,"text":"請注意一件事情 我們當時的老年65歲人口只有2.9%現在到了2040年會高達30% 接近多少 10倍這麼大的轉變當中 結果我們還是抱著這樣的概念來處理思考"},{"start":4743.895,"end":4760.516,"text":"這個一定有盲點 盲點在哪裡 大家可以來思考所以這個是一個結構的問題還有一個很重要的點 從大陸賽的角度來講我們所佔的比重只有3% 跟你佔30%你所要承擔的財務負擔是你付不起"},{"start":4761.537,"end":4780.172,"text":"剛才有專家學者提到說是不是會剝奪,他不會剝奪,他是比擬擴大,我們再看一個數字這個數字裡面我們看到,雖然這個數字是前年的數字,但大的數字不會有什麼太大的改變把整個台灣的資產加起來,如果不考慮房地產,我們有127.2兆"},{"start":4783.347,"end":4804.013,"text":"這兩年股市好的話也許加個5% 10%他可能就130兆到140兆有這個base的情況之下如果能夠增加千分之一我們就1000多億再提撥百分之多少可以來照顧的福利他才有能量所以我們要談的是產業的發展來有助於這個概念"},{"start":4804.773,"end":4825.772,"text":"所以我的決議很簡單就是剛才所提的那個三個定我都肯定yes yes yes至於怎麼定是另外第二層的問題以上謝謝謝謝董事長那接續我們請老人福利推動聯盟的秘書長張淑清秘書長"},{"start":4832.786,"end":4850.306,"text":"主席還有我們各位委員還有我們各位與會的政府官員還有專家學者大家早安首先非常謝謝衛環委員會想到老蒙讓老蒙有機會站在這邊跟各位分享我們的觀點那我想在我的PPT可以嗎請麻煩謝謝"},{"start":4857.34,"end":4875.63,"text":"我先簡單描述一件小事從楊潔剛過大家都以為資源一定要集中在高齡者的政策才是好的政策這是錯誤的"},{"start":4876.81,"end":4904.398,"text":"老盟基本上是一個全國的聯盟型組織我們里堅市大概年齡都是65歲以上那我們曾經為了從養姊進老金要不要全國統一發放我們在里堅市會很認真討論大家的結論是各地方各家子女財政不一我們不應該造成大家的負擔因為為什麼有沒有領到的也有領一萬塊的那為什麼要這樣跟各位提到的是"},{"start":4904.818,"end":4924.029,"text":"高齡者本來就是多樣化那我們為什麼要用一個名詞來代表高齡者呢那我這邊舉的很多的名詞只是告訴各位那不管壯世代不管銀髮族不管亡靈或無靈我想大家都是帶著期望希望這一群人未來是變成是國家的一個資產的"},{"start":4926.511,"end":4941.424,"text":"在聯合國很清楚告訴各位是高齡者所謂的人權是不分年齡的也不分疾病不管他失能與否不管他幾歲他100歲他依然可以很活躍的做社會參與跟生產老化"},{"start":4943.266,"end":4958.394,"text":"所以高齡者他是一般人他是需要平等對待來發展機會的那弱勢的高齡者才需要國家來做扶植的部分那我們這一次老盟的議題很清楚的強調我們的倡議主張一直都在強調一個議題是高齡的議題超高齡社會的來臨高齡者的議題是社會議題並不是只有救濟議題他是一個國家的一個整體性但我們現在所有的法案"},{"start":4971.721,"end":4971.741,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4994.389,"end":5018.117,"text":"所以這個都是很簡單的生活議題但我們回到永續大家都提到永續的發展非常重要聯合國也提到高齡者在這個社會是非常重要的永續發展的目標的定位那我們整個的高齡的一個友善的環境所以我們再次的強調高齡的政策不等於長照政策國家一直認為我有做長照政策就等於已經解決高齡問題我覺得這是一個錯誤的思維"},{"start":5021.198,"end":5049.92,"text":"那近年來老蒙這邊有兩種顏色大家就可以看得很清楚黃色的就是我們倡議到現在還沒成功那剛剛前這幾個專家也提到要成立一個壯世代基本法我們都覺得什麼法都沒有問題我們希望有一部法案可以來做高齡權益平等的概念從人權平等概念來處理但我們首先老蒙這邊是倡議把老福法來做全面修法不要再起新法"},{"start":5050.64,"end":5050.88,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5067.173,"end":5079.847,"text":"高齡 超高齡跟少子化他是一個聯動的關係他絕對不是單一部會他確實需要行政院部分那最重要是要世代永續但很可惜黃色的部分到現在是還沒有一點點的進展好"},{"start":5082.13,"end":5108.429,"text":"那我們主辦單位的公聽會提出三個問題我們做這樣一個回應那當然有些他舉例我想今天講到的是產業高齡者要自由要自主第一個就是他的數位能力要好第二個他要有正確的資訊來源可是我們NCC到現在都沒有聽到高齡者訴求所有的電視都在賣所謂的養生食品然後養生藥但對好像講的是你只要65歲就要開始吃"},{"start":5108.889,"end":5129.122,"text":"所有的博品等死的那一天我覺得這個就是一個國家很不友善高齡者的部分那衛福部這一塊的話像高齡的心理問題老人保護跟獨居議題勞動部這一塊我們建議說未來有沒有可能除了中高齡高齡就業專法的部分有一部分法案要去做鬆綁那當然我們提到的是"},{"start":5130.423,"end":5151.906,"text":"交通、自主可用、文化、金管會、財產安全等都可以再做思考在法案當中我們建議要去盤整所有法案不利於部分我們應該要去全面修高齡權益保障法而且檢視所有的政策要整合再整合"},{"start":5152.586,"end":5152.766,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5174.355,"end":5174.535,"text":"政策及產業發展委員"},{"start":5207.138,"end":5212.664,"text":"謝謝張秘書長那接下來我們請吳春城委員發言你自己提案說給我寫"},{"start":5226.818,"end":5246.637,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝今天出席的所有的專家學者政府官員今天是立法院最有水準的一場公聽會不管是從什麼角度我覺得聽了都非常的開心因為大家都"},{"start":5247.935,"end":5261.184,"text":"正式的這個問題但是首先來思考因為我覺得這個問題真的是很大很大的問題所以當然是百花齊放這很自然不過我們要來思考的一個"},{"start":5262.438,"end":5281.163,"text":"高齡化跟少子化問題是不是更嚴重我們這裡國發會的應該是變得更加嚴重我們少子化每年花了一千多億還提早了15年這一次最近10月17號做的報告我們的高齡化問題"},{"start":5283.16,"end":5311.407,"text":"那所以表示什麼表示我們現在的政策表示我們現在的解放你滿意嗎你滿意嗎有效嗎今天大家站在一個時代的轉捩點轉換口其實立法院每天很吵我覺得我們這一場最重要臺灣未來30年最重要的事情就是高齡化少子化的問題了啦今天問題再不解決好的話"},{"start":5312.389,"end":5339.188,"text":"那人都已經要減少一千萬人了整個的政府整個的立法院有在討論這件事情嗎沒有我告訴大家今天期區議堂就靠了我們各位我們是不是能夠翻轉這個思想這個一個新的時代來臨我們要用新的思維我跟大家講我到立法院我在深刻的感受到大家講了半天你知道除了衛福部之外各個部會對於60歲以上的預算都不到1%"},{"start":5341.616,"end":5367.525,"text":"都不到1% 教育部是多少0.2%文化部是多少這表示什麼 大家講了半天政府為什麼會這樣子因為他覺得60歲以後的沒用了嘛跟我無關嘛為什麼 包括我們的人也是一樣60歲以後包括他自我催眠我們整個的社會在告訴你60歲以後要幹什麼"},{"start":5369.57,"end":5371.556,"text":"對照顧人越來越多這些人"},{"start":5376.081,"end":5398.799,"text":"這個我不要講太激動很重要的所以我們今天要在這裡來開著會我希望我們大家能夠攜手合作明年台灣再55天台灣邁向超高齡社會元年這是一場災難還是一個禮物呢各位覺得長壽是災難還是禮物當然是禮物啊無庸置疑"},{"start":5399.6,"end":5428.556,"text":"我們要把它當作辦喜事來做而不是憂心忡忡所以呢行政院要成立壯世代政策辦公室立法院要通過壯世代政策與產業發展促進法這就是今天兩大訴求這剛才已經有講過天翻地覆人都倒過來了思維不改變用舊方法能夠解決新問題嗎當然是不可能嘛OK為什麼要叫壯世代"},{"start":5430.206,"end":5453.977,"text":"壯世代是一場社會運動這已經從2020年在民間開始已經推動了不是臨時在立法院蹦出來的東西了已經掀起了軒然大波各位去google幾十萬筆在討論壯世代幾十萬筆在討論壯世代這一個不管為什麼以前叫老人叫銀髮叫勒領不管是怎麼樣你的身份你去問"},{"start":5455.523,"end":5478.513,"text":"你用去 大家都是已經被污名化的 沒有人願意承認這些事情以至於他成為一個沒有身份的人 變成一個牽缺方向的世代壯世代就是賦予他的新身份為什麼要改名 都講說有需要什麼名稱的名稱嗎 那為什麼以前三胞要改名叫原住民殘障為什麼要改名叫身障"},{"start":5479.793,"end":5494.049,"text":"一個名詞就代表了一種身份就是一種汙名化那現在高齡者我們給他一個他很喜歡的名詞我已經在民間傳佈了像福音傳福音那樣四年了每一個聽到以後整個精神都會旺起來"},{"start":5494.73,"end":5510.456,"text":"因為我們平常的叫老人老人老人 都叫老人然後我在民間培訓了一千位的壯世代的speaker 到處在宣講所以這是一個社會運動 這不是我們今天關在那個房間裡面閉門造句的東西"},{"start":5514.269,"end":5534.468,"text":"所有的媒體你現在看張州去年用20幾頁封面故事談壯世代今年10月份用30幾頁封面故事談壯世代的百強企業所有的企業都在使用不是一個新名詞下個月要辦的資訊業也創了壯世代董資樂園董資訊的樂園"},{"start":5540.711,"end":5561.113,"text":"如果你用那個大數據雲圖你輸入銀髮高齡老人產生的這個雲圖大概就是老化退化銀髮族失能俱樂部大概都在然後樂火獨居長照大概在討論這議題如果你輸入的是壯世代他就是時尚質感文化參與活動分享你要哪一個"},{"start":5563.4,"end":5585.715,"text":"這就是我們政府行政院去年所提出的超高齡社會對策白皮書的目錄我拿這個目錄問陳建仁院長他72歲我問他說院長這個沒有利用的喔你看了哪幾樣會讓你動心他看一下以後說我都不需要請問誰需要這就是我們政府對高齡社會的想像"},{"start":5587.844,"end":5616.284,"text":"在這個翻轉叫做因法族思維翻轉成為壯世代的思維這改變的是何等的多大我們現在是停留在因法族如果你設定的是因法族你所想像的他就是什麼不是要去醫院就是在醫院的路上他的人生只要求平安他是年輕人的負擔他就是養生養平安如果你是壯世代他有30年的健康餘命他渴望自我貢獻促進世代的循環精彩的第三人生完全不一樣的政策完全不同的產業"},{"start":5619.793,"end":5646.08,"text":"其實這件事情不是突然冒出來其實上一次辦的公聽會有8個部會的部長全程參與了4個小時的公聽會大家有高度的共識包括這一次13個部會所提出來的報告都有所以大家都已經進行半年的不是大家還搞不清楚的問題已經各個部會13個部會已經跟我合作了將近半年了"},{"start":5647.401,"end":5662.654,"text":"但是這個半年當中我們不滿意為什麼大家所提出的64項計畫就像你剛才都是都是熱領活動沒有前瞻性沒有策略性都只是現有政策的會編這就是為什麼要立法的原因"},{"start":5664.986,"end":5668.768,"text":"各式各樣,不是只有一樣,這是一個全面性的修法"},{"start":5680.697,"end":5694.787,"text":"我們透過了整個立法院 成立了各個的系統 這裡是上次都有支撐的來建立這樣子 所以有龐大的專家學者共同在運作 不是我一個人在做的事情"},{"start":5696.105,"end":5722.378,"text":"這是一步促進世代循環 剛才也提這堂的一個權益跟照顧 這個是唯一現在 我們現在說的 大家都是這個國家 那個國家國家沒有辦法養這個一半的人啦 現在壯世代掌握三分之的財富他要創造的這個產業 透露對年輕人最來最大的希望 獲得新創跟長壽機會各個部位所扮演角色 壯世代整個的精神就在這裡"},{"start":5724.66,"end":5739.123,"text":"現在我們是單軌制都是照護性的措施大概只能照顧15%的人未來會有800萬85%如果沒有給他發展性的政策任由自生自滅的話會造成人口土石流連未來要照顧的也照顧不好了"},{"start":5740.612,"end":5767.067,"text":"所以這個三個字接下來這就是扶養比年輕世代的問題我們現在分子就是受照顧的人分母就是工作人口因為高齡化所以分子越來越大因為少子化分母越來越小目前是3.6比13.6個人2040年是2比1兩個人要照顧一個2057年是1比1接下來就是崩潰的社會請問政府有沒有解方沒有聽到任何的解方"},{"start":5767.927,"end":5769.069,"text":"這就是現在哪一個政策比這樣更先進"},{"start":5781.857,"end":5797.927,"text":"翻轉700萬現在55家有700真的4萬人這些人沒有方向感翻轉這些人本來成為國家發展的動力每一個部會他都要重新來定位他的工作角色這是未來一半人口的方向"},{"start":5801.149,"end":5817.493,"text":"政府應該扛起這個責任來這是我們今天共同努力所以一起把銀髮大海嘯變成國家發展的動力這是我們今天聚在這裡共同努力的方向謝謝謝謝謝謝吳委員接下來我們請麥玉珍委員發言謝謝主席"},{"start":5830.714,"end":5859.074,"text":"各位親愛的家人大家早安很開心我們村城委員要來提這個法案所以因為事實上有很多都不了解說我們的村城委員要提這個壯世代我們的印象中就是壯世代就是老人就是都一直在停留這樣的一個"},{"start":5859.872,"end":5860.312,"text":"壯世代不僅擁有豐富的人生的經驗還擁有相當經濟"},{"start":5887.21,"end":5887.51,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":5909.372,"end":5910.013,"text":"實現共榮社會的目標還有第三"},{"start":5936.394,"end":5938.256,"text":"增強國家的競爭力臺灣作為國際社會的重要成員我們需要積極回應聯合國的提出就是健康高齡化的行動計畫"},{"start":5952.962,"end":5971.009,"text":"並藉由這項法案展現臺灣在面對高超齡社會的思考前瞻的思考還有政策的調整進一步國家的精神整理第四徵締社會福利的負擔通過壯世代積極參與我們可以徵締政府在長期照顧的以社會照顧的負擔並促進"},{"start":5981.793,"end":6005.356,"text":"福利還有制度可以繼續發展我也跟大家請教一下我們要孝順父母是要拿錢給他嗎還是如何才是孝順父母以我的觀念以我們家的傳統的觀念我們就是要傳承"},{"start":6006.816,"end":6034.736,"text":"要傳承要有傳承才真的是孝順不是拿錢給他是孝順所以為什麼現在年輕人有的不敢結婚有的不敢生小孩就是因為怕自己不孝順因為要照顧我們的長輩也要說照顧了小孩也照顧這個家庭照顧家庭就是說好男人"},{"start":6036.257,"end":6062.297,"text":"照顧父母是孝順但是一個人來去照顧四個長輩他應該要照顧家庭還是要照顧長輩所以這個才是我們希望我們要讓我們的壯世代所以我們每一個人大家都說叫老人叫樂齡但是現在很多長輩我們跟他稱為壯世代"},{"start":6065.52,"end":6070.314,"text":"就感覺自己的信心都來了就像我在92年就做協會"},{"start":6073.049,"end":6093.002,"text":"這位是市長帶出來的學生所以我們是現在每一個月都在我們仁愛之家去幫老人家去剪頭髮所以每一個月來幫他們去剪頭髮的時候做義工的時候他們都問我們你什麼時候再來什麼時候再來所以我們感覺是我們的長輩他要的是陪伴"},{"start":6100.687,"end":6104.411,"text":"還有我們下一代的傳承這個才對他來說是最重要的所以他們都希望我們過來跟他陪他所以我常問大家說我們在仁愛之家的長輩他們是病死還是悶死"},{"start":6118.604,"end":6140.243,"text":"大部分都是因為悶死 因為每天都看不到孩子 看不到孫子 每天都在那裡鬱悶年輕的人 現在我們每一個人都是壯世代 每一個人都有自己的領域但是當年紀大的 當自己窩在我們的人愛之家"},{"start":6141.957,"end":6162.051,"text":"大家有看到他們以前的風光嗎沒有人知道所以這個就是尊嚴所以我們希望我們要叫壯世代讓我們長輩他有尊嚴也讓大家可以去發揮所以我也希望未來建議我們的學校學校不是只讓小孩自己讀書我們學校要怎麼樣掙扎我們的小孩"},{"start":6168.255,"end":6195.914,"text":"也要增加空間應用空間讓我們長輩在裡面可以協助學校他是教授以後他在這邊也可以在國小國中成為我們可以創造經濟又創造他的就業的能力也讓這個年輕人小孩跟我們的長輩可以共同在學校學習因為學校不是只為小孩來設立"},{"start":6197.455,"end":6197.475,"text":"謝謝麥委員"},{"start":6222.981,"end":6240.477,"text":"那接下來我們請壯世代政策及產業發展促進會秘書長胡志柔發言你要換一下賴委員可以了可以了"},{"start":6256.618,"end":6280.325,"text":"大家早安那聽了很多學者專家還有剛剛勞動部的報告我想我們還是回歸這個壯世代概念上大家可能意見很多但是中高齡或壯世代在職場的命運其實改變不大所以我今天的側重焦點在於這個如果新立一個法"},{"start":6281.991,"end":6307.486,"text":"那這個法對於整個隱性的歧視可以有更大的一個社會辯論甚至能夠真的消除我相信對於未來台灣的人口有七八百萬這樣的高齡者他的處境以及他自我的認同會有所改變所以我今天就想用這個機會謝謝召委安排讓我們對於這個法案雖然才二十幾條"},{"start":6308.166,"end":6308.306,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6337.441,"end":6364.45,"text":"那我們來看我的論點其實在8月份的這個會議當中公聽會裡面我們也有一些報告那基本上以高齡者或中高齡在職場上的一個處境審計部的報告很清楚就是年齡歧視讓很多的勞參率其實包括工作的機會都是腰斬的所以從45到49我們看到還是可以跟其他國家"},{"start":6365.13,"end":6392.752,"text":"有一定的競爭比較但是到了55歲以上真的是沒有辦法在東亞裡面立足相信大家都知道原因雖然大家說日本用終身僱用制然後日本更早我們20年面臨的人口老化但是他們在高齡就業的部分勞參率還是相當可以去提供社會的整個運作的需求那我今天我們知道有新秉隆老師在這裡他是這方面的專家"},{"start":6394.453,"end":6415.309,"text":"從客觀上來看我們台灣是不是在這個勞動力的不管是運用以及參與的這個問題裡面呢沒有一個上位的思維沒有一個前瞻性的一個眼光所以以至於這20年來55歲左右的老參與一直是不動如山一直沒有辦法突破那我相信我們這個左院長在"},{"start":6416.009,"end":6441.568,"text":"10月底的這個雙就業跟雙照顧政策裡面已經發了一個重要的訊息就是他要在4年內讓這個62萬人重返職場或續留職場那這樣的一個前瞻的一個目標要如何達成各部會今天央行查查的報告裡面你的KPI到底是什麼你每一年要定律定的自己的一個績效用什麼來做一個基礎讓國人理解"},{"start":6443.049,"end":6465.835,"text":"所以我相信這是一個法治上必須要面對的一個客觀的存在那以現在的WHO的規範裡面活躍老化大家都比我更熟悉那今天我聽到老蒙的秘書長也很心心念念的在理解一個健康老化或活躍老化到底要怎麼做但是我想你在職場上如果提早20年就被迫離職你要如何在社會上"},{"start":6467.095,"end":6494.125,"text":"自詡認定你還有資源還有條件還有社會認同呢你是一個在活躍老化裡面的重要積極的人士所以我就相信以就業權來看是一個關鍵核心那在就業權裡面有相當的法規但是在這個上位法裡面目前我們沒有看到一個比較具尊嚴性的一個上位法所以我相信我們在就業權部分部外兩個一個是工作平權一個是年齡歧視的現實必須要去突破它"},{"start":6495.714,"end":6522.953,"text":"那大家看一下勞動法規裡面救福法、中高齡法、大量解雇法、老人福利法都有講到不得用年齡歧視可是越是這樣的規範呢我們發現政府認為我都有做我有預防性、我有監測性、我有督導性、我有救濟性但是它的效果是什麼從剛剛講的數據上以及案例上都可以看到隱性的年齡歧視就存在我們的55歲以上的族群裡面那所以我相信救福法不足的部分"},{"start":6523.974,"end":6543.391,"text":"在於,他在委員會認定之後,他並沒有強制回復工作權的強制力。第二,大量解雇法,即使保證你要能夠回任,但是既沒有法則。第三,更是老人福利法裡面,強調勞工主管機關要幫中高齡好好找工作,避免他就業歧視,可是也沒有法則。"},{"start":6545.411,"end":6572.97,"text":"這個是發生在渣打銀行50幾歲的女性員工30幾年的資歷在最後因為數位化被迫離職的案例那他們今年7月也到勞動部去澄清抗議就是剛剛講的就業的這個騎士審議委員會認定這是一個非法解僱非法資遣但是沒有回復工作權的強制力在法治上我認為也是一個這個遺珠之憾"},{"start":6573.57,"end":6593.326,"text":"那如何讓這件事慢慢的在社會上跟企業界,特別是這些人力資源的專業者理解這些勞動力的豐富性跟尊貴性,而不是只有年輕人比較好用、薪水可能比較低、比較好管"},{"start":6593.926,"end":6619.799,"text":"各種刻板印象讓中高齡的就業機會就此被剝奪所以回歸第一個是經濟社會文化權利公約兩公約我們已經實施了那再來是我們這一次的壯世代政策及產業促進法的草案也很清楚的界定我們對待45到55可能大家覺得我也不老但是55以上到底要不要再一個定義讓他能夠回歸"},{"start":6621.604,"end":6638.713,"text":"政府要積極面對及協助甚至要開創它這個有價值存在的一個新的族群所以壯世代的定義大家很多意見但是我認為在國際上屢見不顯韓國日本早20年前就已經切割出必須要做人力"},{"start":6639.433,"end":6664.065,"text":"資源重新調配的一個國家政策所以我認為壯世代的定義不是問題關鍵在於我們政府要用什麼樣的資源角色來介入那現在的法規裡面我認為五委員以及47位委員聯署的藍綠白委員都有表示這是一個共識那我們的召委更是有前瞻見他希望今天的公聽會後我們有機會看到行政院也有對岸"},{"start":6664.505,"end":6680.495,"text":"行政院除了十三部會一千兩百億之外有沒有這個擔當的為未來二十年我們有七百萬的五十五歲以上的人口他要做的事情所以我的建議是要有強制一點的立法方式來因應"},{"start":6682.113,"end":6711.372,"text":"最後有三個方向希望我們在座的委員跟官員能夠面對第一個當然是雙就業雙照顧要有一個法源有KPI我相信國人會全力支持你們第二個要消除隱性就業歧視企業要動起來企業如果再存在這個年齡隱性歧視的話我相信我們的努力只能達到一半的績效第二個缺工的問題勞動部今天很清楚這些缺工問題除了我們現在希望全世界染財然後移工的這個培訓之外"},{"start":6711.852,"end":6736.644,"text":"中階技術人才在哪裡就在55歲的這些國人裡面但是沒有人給他們第二個鑰匙沒有人給他第二個這個支持他就沒有辦法再續留職場最後希望我們進速在公聽會後有一個專法的討論那不管這個名稱是什麼但起碼他在未來能夠減少國家的財政負擔的同時他個人的收入也會增加因為他會續留在職場延續他的這個"},{"start":6739.085,"end":6743.249,"text":"提供社會及他個人認同的一個重要的力量以上謝謝"},{"start":6766.11,"end":6781.753,"text":"蔣偉今天各位與會的各位官員還有各位朋友還有各位學者大家好我是新東向大聯盟的執行者的執行長陳孝昌今天的話就這個專法我提出了以下我個人的一些觀點下一位"},{"start":6793.514,"end":6814.006,"text":"因為這部分的話是對壯世代整個產業促進法的一個公聽會所以在前幾天我有仔細去研讀過經濟部的一些對應那我自己本身覺得經濟部的對應是非常的對位的以下我做了一些總結提出來給各位學者跟專家做參考"},{"start":6815.787,"end":6839.009,"text":"經濟部是從引導整個壯世代的產業發展來切入那基本上的話有兩個非常大的一個產業可以去發展的一個可能就是醫美健健大健康然後第二個是熱領科技這兩部分的話我覺得是非常正確的然後往下推廣的話它會跟所謂的地方創生來做一個結合"},{"start":6839.85,"end":6854.078,"text":"那相對性的話在所謂的推廣壯世代的休閒活動這塊他也有把自己在經濟部想帶動的產業有推廣出來然後最後做了一個總結的話就是在促進整個壯世代的資產的鏈結"},{"start":6856.653,"end":6879.952,"text":"也列了四項,然後我覺得非常重要的是最後面的兩項第一個是將整個僱用中高齡及就業級所謂促進中高齡就業列入審核的一個重點甚至用點數的方式來做考核另外一個非常重要的話就是提升應用數位工具的能力還有工作效率,協助壯世代來減輕工作的負擔"},{"start":6881.073,"end":6909.292,"text":"所以如果對這個架構的話我覺得在第一個階段的話經濟部推出來的對策從我自己本身來看是非常正確的但是如果整個經濟部這邊對應是這麼的正確的話那剛才吳委員有提過的話要解決壯世代整個問題的話如果大家來看左邊這張圖就是扶養筆要把一些分子把它變成是分母只要分母更多的話"},{"start":6910.874,"end":6921.113,"text":"這個問題可能就會解決的但對應的上一次的公聽會之後剛才吳委員有講過整個在政府各部會所列出來的一些計畫"},{"start":6922.694,"end":6944.677,"text":"一大堆的是零預算一大堆的零預算甚至裡面有幾個是零的比如說文化部、經濟部、國科會這一塊相對性的話現在我來看經濟部是已經有對策了但是怎麼把它編到所謂的預算裡面來推廣來增加壯世代incentive把這個事情做得更好"},{"start":6946.547,"end":6969.564,"text":"好那剛剛有很多的專家學者也在討論了這個是一個跌床教育的一個方式因為已經有很多的法已經有很多法在修了但是今天我們要討論這個公聽會不一樣我們是產業促進跟以前修的那些法的話是不大一樣的既然已經定義什麼是一個產業發展的話"},{"start":6971.789,"end":6997.692,"text":"基本上的話就是有三個方向三個組織一定要建構起來一個是產業的發展產業的發展你就是要去定義所謂的產業的範疇產業的範疇然後有更完善的投資標的第二個它的市場市場性是在哪裡如果市場性它已定義得非常的清楚的時候較對應的下一步的話就是我們的金融政策"},{"start":6998.433,"end":7000.413,"text":"臺灣絕對不是第一個在整個少子化的過程"},{"start":7024.212,"end":7028.987,"text":"在扶養配比的話全世界有兩個國家大概是危機最大的一個是韓國"},{"start":7030.525,"end":7056.944,"text":"一個是台灣那在韓國的話他在2022年的時候已經提出來了整個韓國高齡友善產業發展條例這已定義得非常的清楚他就是從產業產業出發而不是從就業出發就業出發產業出發的話因為只要這個產業夠大的話有很多的壯世代就有可能投入重新回到這個職場"},{"start":7059.085,"end":7078.292,"text":"這個細則的話也就是剛才吳委員提過為什麼我們要立一個法從產業的角度來促進這整個中高齡的產業發展我自己本身在上個星期的話大概也寫了一個論述就是政府怎麼去進行有效的一個引導跟預算的一個編列"},{"start":7079.793,"end":7094.834,"text":"我的訴求也是跟吳委員是一樣的一定要有所謂的專案辦公室因為這是跨部會的事情我們不能再用老的思維來做新的事情做老的思維來做新的事情所以"},{"start":7096.503,"end":7121.619,"text":"這一頁的話大概是我從這兩年來一直在提供的一張圖也就是說壯世代基本法它是一個經濟發展的一個基底一定要從文化的形塑再者從市場的形塑去考慮這兩個議題你考慮到這兩個很重要的東西你立出來一個基本法才有可能會有生命然後無論是壯世代無論是銀髮族的話有人"},{"start":7124.966,"end":7147.202,"text":"有錢有時間的話他就會走向資本的世界有時間有經驗的話他就會走向剛才麥委員講的傳承那如果我們可以從資本從傳承這個基底上面去考慮這個壯世代的基本法的設定的話我覺得這個法律法條才會有他的生命謝謝"},{"start":7152.102,"end":7164.158,"text":"謝謝陳執行長那接續我們請傅崇禧教授發言傅教授講完之後我們休息6分鐘接著時間6分鐘"},{"start":7167.029,"end":7190.712,"text":"主席再度各位先進我是臺灣大學社會工作系副總席今天很榮幸有機會來這邊談一談我自己個人的前見那這個法案看起來是關乎我們今天很多各領域的學者專家跟前輩有兼容的面向就業的面向產業科技等等之類那我個人的背景因為是在社會福利這個領域所以我想說就我這個領域的角度來提一些我個人目前的一些想法"},{"start":7192.474,"end":7208.096,"text":"今天其實主管單位有列了三個,前面有前景有提出來,三個很明確的問題第一個就是說這個觀念思維是不是要改變,我想這個應該是沒有人有什麼疑慮或者說不同意見,大家認為說其實這個觀念一定要做一些翻轉"},{"start":7208.977,"end":7224.939,"text":"那事實上我們可以看到說這個是一個政府文件裡面的一個說明這不可否認的人口高齡化的確對社會發展帶來一些嚴峻的挑戰但也不應該忽視的是它為社會帶來的發展機會那這一段文字是在高齡社會白面書裡面所以過去幾年"},{"start":7225.68,"end":7247.849,"text":"那行政部門很大費周章的,很各個領域的專家學者去做一些演繹、做一些討論,就產生了是這一部高齡社會白皮書。裡面其實就很清楚的去做這個,要把這個觀念的翻轉,當然是未來我們面對高齡化社會一個很重要的一個切入的面向。那所以,意思是說這個是本來我感覺到也蠻,這個樂觀期生也蠻期待、樂觀看待的,政府確實已經開始有這樣的思維。"},{"start":7249.77,"end":7272.875,"text":"那第二個問題也是我們主辦單位之前提供的就是說那是不是要各部會一起來齊心協力這邊提到說原來好像只有衛福部是不是要各部會當然我想這個也沒有人會去質疑它的重要性那事實上同樣的在這一部高聯社的白皮書裡面它列了15個部會的業務在這邊所以說衛福部、原民會等等這些大家覺得"},{"start":7273.215,"end":7273.235,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7297.094,"end":7297.234,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7313.579,"end":7336.766,"text":"這個各部會一共編了一千多億的預算那所以剛剛有一些先例比較說好像有些計畫沒有錢好像有些計畫沒有立法沒有在強制執行我覺得應該會有這確實是也可能會有這樣的一個狀況但是就我們從110年通過高電池百比數我個人是覺得說看到這樣的一個翻轉看到這樣的一個新的一個途徑的策略跟各部會的一個協力我個人覺得是一個蠻好的開始"},{"start":7337.426,"end":7358.033,"text":"這當然只是一個開始,因為就我理解說當初其實各部會在討論的時候,很多部會可能也還沒有很嚴肅的意識到說該不會是跟我有關。那所以當現在開始有這樣的一個機制,有這樣的一個政府很官方的一個計畫,而且很重要的一個各個實現的步驟,跟組協辦單位都很明確的翻譯之下,那我相信這是一個很好的開始。"},{"start":7359.156,"end":7379.685,"text":"那第三個議題總辦單位提出來就是說那需不需要一個特定的立法那這部分我倒是有不一樣的比較保留的想法那我的想法為什麼會這樣子想那我大概提出一些我自己的一些想法第一個就是說壯世代就是說確實是在媒體上面常常會看到但是你說的壯世代跟我說的壯世代是不是一樣"},{"start":7381.894,"end":7395.591,"text":"我們剛剛有人提到說上週有一個壯世代調查各位去Google都很方便上週的壯世代是幾歲?45歲所以你跟一個45歲的講你壯世代你跟一個80歲的講你壯世代大家的想像不太一樣"},{"start":7396.292,"end":7418.479,"text":"過去我們可以看到說,很多的人都想要提出來不同的新的一個名稱,壯世代、XY世代、G世代、銀灰世代那這不是只有臺灣,國會也是一樣,國際上Civic Generation、Third Age,第三階段的人生等等那這個大概都沒有形成共識,所以大概我們沒有看到說這個就變成是好像大家覺得說老這個或是Age的這個名稱,大家都覺得不太理想,沒有錯"},{"start":7419.139,"end":7421.321,"text":"國際上還是一樣我們常常很多資料很多討論跟國際接軌確實是這個分類大概是我們不喜歡這個名稱但是我們沒有說要去推翻65歲"},{"start":7441.94,"end":7471.109,"text":"是一個生涯階段因為我們現在很多的制度都跟65歲結合所以如果我們把這個如果我們不改變這個社會結構是立了一個新的法改了一個新的名稱其實這個很難有一個根本性的改變除非我們把老人福利法整個翻轉把退休制度65歲全部的去翻轉我們65歲當作一個生命界限生涯階段的一個現實的所有的制度所有的法規完全需要翻修那如果用一個新的名稱的話那原來的結構沒有根本性的改變我想這個可能還是相當的有限"},{"start":7473.43,"end":7497.08,"text":"另外就是說 前面有前面你提到說其實65歲以上的人是一個意識性很高的所以我們在常常做高齡研究都會分65歲跟85歲是很不一樣的都要分老老人 中老人 年輕老人如果未來是55歲以上那個意識性更高啦 怎麼去涵蓋的話我想這個挑戰性會更大就是說怎麼去制定一個政策那另外就是說我們現在其實強大是一個年齡整合就是說不要 這個是以前是覺得你什麼"},{"start":7497.88,"end":7510.892,"text":"年齡階段要做什麼?先是整個打破了,所以盡量地用年齡去切割,你再怎麼切,其實都是一個社會的分化。你65歲切,大家一定覺得不太適當,所以把他切到55歲,可能是接觸到一些新的議題。那另外從社會福利角度來看,"},{"start":7513.474,"end":7541.68,"text":"五十五歲以上的人大概也沒有什麼特別讓他們覺得說好像社福要特別介入這個區塊了那另外最後講一個就是說我等一下回去就要面對大學生我回去教書如果我跟大學生講說立法院很關心你們有一個壯世代要提升他們的資源年輕人會覺得有希望嗎年輕人會覺得說對我們有一個學生小孩了嗎我覺得是這個我倒有點覺得懷疑啦所以我們是不是這個思考很好是不是有什麼不同的角度然後可以更多的討論之後有共識再來做一些立法的決定謝謝"},{"start":7546.103,"end":7548.411,"text":"好 謝謝副教授那我們現在休息6分鐘"},{"start":7592.978,"end":7593.18,"text":"主席"},{"start":7978.985,"end":7984.286,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會接續我們請胡志柔秘書長發言好 謝謝我想今天所有的專家學者當中應該是屬我最年輕那我衷心的期盼有一天我可以成為壯世代"},{"start":8008.747,"end":8027.908,"text":"感謝給我們發聲的機會這是我們壯促會224位專家學者共同的心願那麼我想在談到底壯促法是不是應該要推動立法我們應該我想先釐清一個問題可不可以在座的人有人可以告訴我什麼東西叫做正義"},{"start":8030.29,"end":8050.984,"text":"1950年代第三世紀的國家仍然都還沒有justice這樣的一個概念但是他們卻不約而同的把justice放入他們的法典當中那代表什麼意思代表的是說就是他們覺得這是我一個可以追求的價值不管 不好意思因為剛跑了有點喘"},{"start":8054.278,"end":8079.106,"text":"不管我今天我到底我們是不是對正義這些事情有歧義但只要我認為它是一個可以追求的價值我就把它放入我的法典裡面去所以我們可以發覺在整個法體系當中凡是越有價值性的定義它越適合作為所謂的促進法基本法而越是屬於管理性的定義它可以作為權力法作用法比如說老人福利法你今天可不可以告訴我"},{"start":8079.566,"end":8106.767,"text":"為什麼65歲一定要叫老人為什麼不是64歲可以叫老人他一樣會有爭議啊憑什麼我今天80歲我生理症候一樣要叫做老人他一樣會有爭議啊但是權益很重要我必須要有一個操作性的定義我才可以確定我把補助發給誰這樣能夠理解吧這叫做權益法作用法可是基本法促進法就不一樣啦我們翻開文化基本法上面沒有任何一條法條告訴我們文化是什麼"},{"start":8107.507,"end":8131.182,"text":"但是他只要告訴我們台灣的文化是要追求多元族群共和這樣就可以了所以這就是文化基本法它存在的價值這樣能夠理解意識而壯促法今天就是一個促進法當然我們必須要強調的是我們重點是壯世代政策以及壯世代產業這兩個名詞的定義才是最重要的"},{"start":8131.802,"end":8159.383,"text":"壯世代正義任何事情其實沒有關係因為它就是一個我們追求的價值有一天我想成為壯世代壯世代政策我只要能夠確定它是要降低社福負擔的壯世代產業它是為了要推動長壽經濟的有如此清楚的定義我們就可以開始立這個法只要它沒有涉及任何的權益在當然我們退一步來說行政院上次蘇處長過來做答詢的時候他曾經清楚地表示到壯世代是55家這是不夠的"},{"start":8160.123,"end":8178.555,"text":"最好是在後面加個但書人具有生產力消費記者我們非常認同啊我們鼓掌歡迎如果行政院願意提出這樣子的一個版本的話我們樂意追隨那麼講到這邊一定會有人繼續追問但是你講了這麼多壯世代這真的是一個值得追求的價值嗎"},{"start":8179.676,"end":8206.54,"text":"我們必須要瞭解到一個特別的時空背景這個時空背景就是2070年臺灣只要再過46年工作人口697萬我們的撫養老年剛好也是697萬天啊這是什麼樣的一個社會啊為了一個社會人設能夠不改變嗎銀髮族九年臥蟲我只要今天被貼上這個標籤以後我好像永遠就是生活在醫院以及要去醫院的路上我人生沒有任何其他希望我是個可憐人"},{"start":8207.481,"end":8227.62,"text":"可是如果我是壯世代法律賦予我這樣子的一個精神地位我就會知道我還有30年的健康餘命我是個正常人我只是壽命比過去的傳統古人要來得高而已我的生活場域應該是要講究的我的資源應該是可以促進世代循環的這才是立這個法最主要的意義所在那它不值得追求嗎"},{"start":8228.22,"end":8246.269,"text":"行政院也在做媒體也在報答代表他是有社會響應基礎的啊所以接下來我們真正要問的問題是那麼你講了那麼多你們是不是想要把整個衛福體系把它砍掉重練抱歉小的不敢這個我們一直主張的是雙打策略"},{"start":8247.746,"end":8272.495,"text":"壯世代促進法作為補位性政策作為發展性政策你只要知道這是未來國家的一個願景我們願意由法令去支撐它政府相關的作為去支撐它一塊去發展就夠了主體持續的安全網政策這是需要的啊中高齡就業促進法依然要存在啊老人福利法依然存在啊這有什麼不對的嗎權益"},{"start":8273.695,"end":8274.616,"text":"總是有不少專家學者最後一定要問我們"},{"start":8291.331,"end":8318.429,"text":"那既然政府都在做了你還要立法嗎那不會跌床架屋嗎我們必須要說你們就設想一下我相信在座很多人他出生就生存在威權時代如果今天政府跟你講好啊明天我台灣就要開始走向民主了但是請你不要立法請問你會回家睡覺嗎不會吧更何況我們退一步說如果今天行政院他已經起了很好的一個頭"},{"start":8320.09,"end":8341.124,"text":"難道今天我喊要民主明天我台灣就民主了嗎不可能吧我一定要有各種法律的配套上來既然行政院今天已經號稱13個部會做了64項計畫做了非常我們鼓掌啊我們覺得你們為台灣萬世萬代立下了一個好的典範立法我們願意督促立法繼續"},{"start":8343.556,"end":8365.464,"text":"立出一個完整的法追隨行政院讓臺灣的永續典範可以確定下來啊更何況啊剛才不只一個來自各界的專家學者還不只是衛福界的學者而已不管是金融領域的產業領域的市場領域的你今天要建立壯世代的這個教育你總該要建立產業你教育文化也要上來"},{"start":8366.124,"end":8366.504,"text":"謝謝胡秘書長 接下來我們請黃門凱委員發言"},{"start":8399.693,"end":8423.964,"text":"主席各位先進我想今天非常感謝主席能夠安排這個壯世代政策跟產業發展的公聽會其實我們也知道在吳孫成委員以及我們很多委員共同提案支持也希望能夠推動壯世代產業及政策的發展促進法最主要根本在於是我們都希望臺灣現在面臨到的一個問題我們一起努力要來解決跟面對"},{"start":8424.884,"end":8452.897,"text":"同時間在一樓教育文化委員會今天開的是少子女化私校退場機制我們今天這棟大樓一個是少子女化了一個是我們要面臨的是壯世代這就是台灣現在面臨的問題不是嗎2025年20%超過65歲以上的人口五分之一五位裡面有一位是65歲以上的人口這是我們台灣即將面臨的問題而少子女化今年是龍年"},{"start":8453.617,"end":8474.274,"text":"去年我們的出生率創下有史以來最低13萬5000人而今年到現在的統計數字直到年底有可能不到13萬人我們今年會是出生人口最少的一年所以現在面臨到問題我們當然就是要去努力在討論"},{"start":8475.595,"end":8492.962,"text":"其實我們先講說私校的部分我都有一個想法如果說現在私校退場的話那能不能轉型讓他變成是一個我們壯世代的族群可以再去從實學業或是能夠再拿學歷的一個"},{"start":8494.019,"end":8494.199,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8513.809,"end":8514.27,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8533.235,"end":8551.883,"text":"壯世代跟我們一般所謂的這個中高齡現在中高齡不管是就業法不管是這個老人福利法當然都應該要留著都應該要保留但壯世代還有另外更不同的是其實兩個先決條件能夠讓壯世代有底氣一個是有錢一個是有健康"},{"start":8552.623,"end":8572.888,"text":"有錢有健康你講話才有底氣嘛因此我想針對為什麼我們一直強調是說並不是要跌床架屋並不是在現在政府在推動的已經有而是為什麼要做的是政策跟產業要把政策跟產業都跨進來這就不會只是單一部會的事情"},{"start":8573.328,"end":8597.062,"text":"不是衛福部在做衛福部的事不是勞動部在做勞動部的事而是要看到整體的一塊餅因為有五分之一的人口就是壯世代的時候我們當然要共同努力來去推動所以怎麼樣能夠讓我們的壯世代有錢以及怎麼樣讓壯世代有健康讓他去持續的變成是我們社會上的一份子跟助力這才是重點"},{"start":8598.365,"end":8618.124,"text":"如果說講有錢的話第一個部分我提到保本很重要為什麼因為現在就是退休金到底我們退休金的制度老保大家要不要去面對如果說現在的政府告訴我們說撥補就有用的話那我請教軍公教之前的年金為什麼不能用撥補的方式"},{"start":8618.888,"end":8641.035,"text":"那如果說撥補只是延後只是把頭埋在沙子裡面當成是看不見就以為這個事情沒有發生那這樣子我們不就是未來的子孫還是要去面對這個事情嗎因為保本讓真的已經退休的壯世代他能夠有一定的退休金無餘的情況他才能夠有錢才能夠持續永續的生活嗎"},{"start":8642.934,"end":8660.662,"text":"2、就業,如果說他沒有辦法足夠的保本的話,我們怎麼樣能推動壯世代的就業,讓他變成是一個整體的產業發展。良好的友善的就業方案,現在衛福部有在,現在勞動部有在推動了,那但是除了勞動部推動以外,其他相關部會是不是能夠一起進來?"},{"start":8661.863,"end":8685.071,"text":"我就講一個現在大家都在講AI啊AI是下指令我們壯世代的朋友其實他就是很有經驗如果說能夠來去做討論是能夠結合某些行業是能夠用AI搭配我們的壯世代壯世代人有經驗他能夠精準的下達相關的指令讓AI去做相關的一些"},{"start":8685.911,"end":8704.75,"text":"城市相關的一些數據的一個分析是不是就能夠創造一些工作經驗工作就業機會而這些就業機會反而是人類不斷的累積跟人類不斷的一個經驗的一個傳承而無可取代性的這個部分有沒有任何的部會現在去討論"},{"start":8705.811,"end":8706.952,"text":"我覺得防炸非常重要"},{"start":8735.029,"end":8751.382,"text":"面對壯世代的朋友如果說他的退休金或是相關的一些資源被詐騙了他突然間從有錢變沒錢的情況他是不是頓時整個生活整個社會就出了問題而到底我們幾個部會"},{"start":8754.037,"end":8777.86,"text":"對於詐騙的一個打擊為什麼一直強調過去到現在詐騙打擊講了那麼久但是中高齡壯世代的詐騙打擊有沒有更能夠具體以及精準的讓詐騙集團不要針對壯世代的部分我就直接講我們有沒有思考過如果說你詐騙集團騙的是退休金的話加重處分"},{"start":8779.636,"end":8794.273,"text":"因為他是一個完全不可逆的狀況而且是對於這個壯世代來講他的最後一筆人生的一個這個不管是保本金也好不管是他的生活必須也好所以"},{"start":8795.205,"end":8820.522,"text":"我今天提出來這幾個部分我想當然很多各界先進的一個意見等一下我也會剛剛在現場以及我也會在辦公室持續的透過直播跟大家繼續的來了解但我更需要的是政府部門一定要正視這樣的一個問題這不是只是單一部會雖然我們今天在衛環委員會但這絕對不是只是衛福部絕對不是勞動部絕對不是只是單一部會的問題"},{"start":8822.003,"end":8829.634,"text":"而是希望是能夠政府一個更宏觀的態度去看我們現在面臨到台灣的人口結構以及我們面臨到怎麼樣能夠讓產業發展"},{"start":8831.425,"end":8831.465,"text":"謝謝孟凱委員"},{"start":8859.059,"end":8862.001,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位先進 各位朋友大家午安"},{"start":8879.594,"end":8906.606,"text":"今天非常榮幸有這個機會再跟各位分享一下我對壯世代這個法案的一些心得看法首先我覺得壯世代這個名詞就是一個顛覆跟一個先進的潮流的一個名詞第二個今天在座的各位我們有沒有想過我們為什麼今天會在這裡都是為了一個壯世代而來"},{"start":8907.904,"end":8924.557,"text":"所以我們在這邊那在座的各位其實我們某一個形式上來講也都是壯世代剛剛聽了那麼多的學者專家委員所論述的我覺得都非常的好非常的有內容也都有非常的有道理"},{"start":8925.925,"end":8946.439,"text":"所以我不想增加太多的我個人的看法有關於論述方面而是從感性方面來跟各位闡述一下我對壯世代的看法所以我講的此時的一個心得就是我們今天要做的是一個觀念的共鳴"},{"start":8947.79,"end":8948.25,"text":"共鳴及情感"},{"start":8975.987,"end":8977.809,"text":"一生當中有怕什麼嗎?怕死嗎?怕老嗎?怕病嗎?怕臥床嗎?怕沒錢嗎?還是怕被歧視?被標籤化?還是怕變成我們孩子的負擔?所以我告訴各位我們人到最後就會發現我很怕臥床"},{"start":9003.834,"end":9003.934,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9021.547,"end":9021.667,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9043.727,"end":9061.875,"text":"在財富上面都能夠有一個更好的一個法案更好的一個策略來完成這些事情所以現在各部份的各行其事所以我們需要有一個更整合性的一個方案來處理這些事情所以我從一個公共衛生的角度來跟各位報告"},{"start":9062.495,"end":9062.655,"text":"社會福利及產業發展"},{"start":9082.558,"end":9090.643,"text":"才有辦法變成一個健康的社會 健康的臺灣這個時候我們才不會怕我們有一天老了我們不會怕我們一天要臥床很久我們才不會怕我們有一天我們錢不夠了所以從這個角度來上我們覺得現在的這個壯世代它是一個年齡的整合它是一個產業的促進它可以創造更大的人生的價值跟貢獻的時候"},{"start":9112.157,"end":9112.377,"text":"壯世代政策及產業發展公聽會"},{"start":9127.054,"end":9127.194,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9149.938,"end":9170.832,"text":"勇敢的一個世代的延續而且這個壯世代我個人覺得他不是單一的年齡的分割而是一個一連串永續的年齡的一個呈現他是永遠的壯下去的永遠的是健康的下去的所以呢我們要做的另外一件事情就是變成一個有為有創造力的世代"},{"start":9171.312,"end":9193.913,"text":"有為有創造力的時代來減少年輕人的負擔剛剛論述了很多年輕人少子化跟年紀大的這個族群我們如何讓兩方都能夠共好都兩方都能夠往中間邁進變成一個強而有力壯大的一個世代一個族群那這樣子的雙方都共盟齊力"},{"start":9194.372,"end":9221.503,"text":"所以透過健康促進保健養生讓我們的生命雖然能夠達到有一天到達了100歲但是我們的年齡我們的年齡是100歲但是我們仍然是如壯年般一般的健康所以我們在公共衛生我們30年前就提出來了一句話一句口號就是我們公共衛生整個臺灣的健康就是要朝向"},{"start":9222.063,"end":9222.463,"text":"拜臨壯年邁進"},{"start":9251.647,"end":9263.111,"text":"好走我相信在座的各位你們還有什麼期待嗎在這邊大聲小聲的最後還是希望好死好走我今天快起死了"},{"start":9263.916,"end":9283.916,"text":"會議員："},{"start":9284.056,"end":9284.397,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9295.418,"end":9295.898,"text":"一念天堂 一念地獄"},{"start":9324.504,"end":9332.71,"text":"謝謝韓教授以重新長接續我們請明道大學前校長林柏文歡迎"},{"start":9339.378,"end":9366.381,"text":"主席還有各位委員各位我們行政院的長官還有各位會的專家學者剛才我們唐老師說人生罷會這是一定會到的時間所以要有一個新的思維那我今天用很短的時間其實我剛從一所退場的大學結束掉我是部里派我去結束明道大學但是相對的"},{"start":9367.202,"end":9387.212,"text":"我覺得最更重要的是怎麼樣讓教育這一塊補上我們未來所提到的百歲人生所以第一個今天公聽會的第一個議題說要不要有新思維當然要但是從教育這一塊終生教育是抗老的最好的解放"},{"start":9388.431,"end":9411.886,"text":"我們可以看到當一個包括現在少子化的浪潮大學在面臨退場包含高中職在退場的時候這是一個迫在眉睫的問題是一個政策的問題所以美國在1971年代就開始思考到如剛才唐老師所說的如何健康的老化活躍的老化所以活化在一個什麼樣的環境裡面"},{"start":9412.446,"end":9435.498,"text":"就是一個學習型的社會學習型的臺灣所以從這個角度上來看美國有提出所謂UBRC就是大學跟退休社區連結的模式所以我提供這樣的一個模式的思考這個思維來去提供我們今天在壯世代在立法過程裡面對中正學習需求可以豐富我們社交"},{"start":9436.218,"end":9459.406,"text":"文化創新還有智慧的傳承那這個概念主要就是在安德魯卡爾他所在2006年提出那時候主要是先從密西根安阿貝爾的校區裡面提造這樣的一個觀念那後來呢陸陸續續的把business model把它架進來之後呢這個目前美國已經有100多所退休的社區是跟大學做連結的"},{"start":9460.807,"end":9467.483,"text":"我自己在基金會的時候我們做了一個分類我抽了48所大學美國的大學去做分類就發現"},{"start":9468.959,"end":9497.042,"text":"在二這個項目上就是退休社區跟學習的連結在產業的規模上是最豐富的那目前持續在增加之中所以從這個角度上來看美國有一個非營利組織叫H2.0他的概念正好符合了今天壯世代提出的一個觀念性思考他把挑戰過去視為現在的機會他把所謂專注在所謂的衛福"},{"start":9497.843,"end":9504.677,"text":"開始提供到不是只有健康而是要活的健康要活的活躍所以要有生活的一個形態"},{"start":9506.173,"end":9529.853,"text":"過去的思維在社福的思維是design for all那現在是應該一個全靈的思考design for all那再來過去是以所謂的社會福利的角度福祉的角度但是我們現在政府的負擔不可能再做大政府所以要based driven的這樣過程那第5個就提到所謂的老化在哪裡不是在機構老化"},{"start":9530.453,"end":9530.753,"text":"社會福利及產業發展公聽會議"},{"start":9559.99,"end":9582.131,"text":"在CCRC過去的觀念裡面會變成CCFC所以從這個角度相信我剛才呂市長也對這部分都非常的一個重視那因此他簡單的主要一個元素這個概念的元素就是把退休社區跟終身學習跟活躍老化充分的結合在一起而形成具有一個產業規模的方式"},{"start":9582.811,"end":9599.886,"text":"University Palace in Western LafayetteBoston College杜克大學也是用這個角度去思考第2個問題是否只有社福領域需不需要其他部會協力"},{"start":9601.667,"end":9615.821,"text":"那我這邊提供兩個案例一個是日本的後生省跟日本的國土交通省的合作第二個是剛才我們提過的在韓國的保健福祉部跟經濟部訂定的高齡友善產業的發展條例這兩個方案"},{"start":9617.963,"end":9634.668,"text":"這兩個方案的概念就是不是單一個部會而必須要透過立法的途徑在日本裡面他是因為後生省的一個借戶保險的壓力太大所以他主動找到國土交通省說你們控制了那麼多的住宅"},{"start":9635.248,"end":9654.158,"text":"能不能把它活化友善老人家友善高齡者能夠租賃所以從94年這種倡議之後一直到2011年政治所謂高齡者住宅法復服務高齡友善住宅成立之後把產業的規模加進來急速的成長那這也可提供給我們未來在社會住宅政策上的一個參考"},{"start":9655.499,"end":9680.334,"text":"第2個所以你看到從1998年我把它整理出來到2011年到修正高齡者安定確保法之後創設副服務高齡者住宅所以我們現在對社會住宅是鎖定在65歲但是那是少部分加上把產業機制拉進來我覺得是更具有把住宅政策跟福祉政策這是日本已經發生並且透過立法才產生的案例那第2個剛才我在把前面的"},{"start":9680.994,"end":9681.655,"text":"高齡友善產業促進法"},{"start":9697.057,"end":9720.025,"text":"包含雖然目前最積極有成效的是有關食品所以從這個角度上來看最後一個問題就是說到底要不要透過立法那我的答案是不管名稱上大家有沒有什麼樣的共識但是就法案本身的性質來講我們在公共政治的分析裡面這個法案具有人口老化的急迫性跟社會發展未來性的公共議題"},{"start":9721.005,"end":9744.575,"text":"所以要透過授權行政立法的方式讓各部門要依法行政有所遵循二 這個法案是非屬權益性法案剛才我們秘書長提到是以公共事務先驅議題的框架採政策倡議所以引領行政立法公司之後必立授權行政機關相互協力解決公共問題"},{"start":9745.555,"end":9770.483,"text":"所以眾上為了統一事權我們也建議這個法案假使能夠有共識立法的時候可以參照行政院社會福利推動委員會設置要點這是在張俊雄張院長的時候他接見臺灣社會福利在民國90年他一聲令下就在行政院開始設立這個委員會所以我們希望能夠在這裡透過專責辦公室來重鑿壯世代各項部會重要政策的研擬跟督導以上報告謝謝"},{"start":9786.811,"end":9795.254,"text":"主席、各位委員、還有各位先進、各位女士先生、大家午安非常高興有這個機會來共同討論有關於這個雙世代立法的議題"},{"start":9799.875,"end":9806.451,"text":"那麼壯世代這個議題提出來當然是一個很好我們社會上應該去注意的概念"},{"start":9808.066,"end":9835.838,"text":"這個什麼世代什麼世代實際上我們都知道像1990年以前1980年中間出生的人我們稱之為Y世代1990年到2000年我們出生的叫Z世代現在大家都用手機我們講手機世代當然對這樣的一個世代議題它都有特殊性我們都必須要去注意"},{"start":9836.578,"end":9837.799,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及產業發展公聽會"},{"start":9866.758,"end":9869.561,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及產業發展"},{"start":9888.478,"end":9912.952,"text":"目前來講有21個條文除了第一條立法的目的跟第二條用詞的名詞之外那麼其他的這18條的條文當中啊大部分是一個遜式的規定比較看不出來它是有什麼樣一個作用那麼這是我看到就是說壯世代要立法的情況之下先天上有這樣的一個存在的問題"},{"start":9914.537,"end":9915.438,"text":"中高齡及高齡者的就業促進法"},{"start":9931.366,"end":9944.744,"text":"這個法律定出來之後它基本上區分成兩大區塊一個是所謂中高齡者也就是45歲以上到65歲以上所謂的中高齡者以及65歲以上的高齡者"},{"start":9945.945,"end":9966.735,"text":"那麼它立法的內容當中非常具體基本上有六個立法的一個政策第一個是禁止年齡的歧視第二個是穩定就業措施第三個是促進失業的一個就業第四個支持退休後再就業以及推動引髮人才的服務以及第六個開發就業機會"},{"start":9969.156,"end":9988.461,"text":"一百零九年十四到一百一十二年的時間短短這幾年我們就促進了這個中高齡的就業率達到百分之六十六點零五我們的平均就業率才不到六十億所以基本上這個立法來講的話推動來講已經達到具體的成效"},{"start":9990.763,"end":10003.056,"text":"高齡者也就是說65歲以上的更突破了9.89也就是說實施這個法律當中每一年都增加了10萬個就業人口這個就業來講的話勞動部在112年到114年再加強這個計畫推動了所謂的就業高齡者跟高齡者就業促進的一個方案"},{"start":10013.786,"end":10037.387,"text":"那麼可見這個方案推動的情況下可以再促進更多的就業所以如果說是只針對45歲到65歲的工作者來講的話我們這個法律跟這個政策來講既具體又有具體的成效所以有沒有必要再去做一個立法定出一個55歲以上的看起來似乎沒有太大必要"},{"start":10038.288,"end":10052.684,"text":"即使我們講55歲以上到65歲以上的這些人他在高齡需要的特別保護那行政院已經訂出了112年到115年因應超高齡社會的一個對策方案"},{"start":10054.212,"end":10078.524,"text":"這個方案內容各位都可以下載在國發會衛福部你們都可以下載這個方案這個方案實際上並不如有些委員講說他沒有具體內容有非常具體的內容各位可以請看不僅15個部會各有執掌而且他們分配的一個預算都寫得非常清楚如何執行還有他執行的KPI的一個檢視都有"},{"start":10080.867,"end":10104.39,"text":"總共花了在4年當中有經費1206億可見這個計畫來講也能夠推動一定的具體成效所以從這些方面來講我們對照了這個雙世代的立法當中第一個立法目的來講的話因為跨不同世代卻沒有針對不同世代當中去研擬具體的內容"},{"start":10105.211,"end":10120.783,"text":"而立法內容都是遜式規定,看不出它有具體的方案跟成效第三個,立法的內容來講的話,很難執行,因為看不出它需要的是什麼所以基本上,雖然立出這個法來講,用意很好"},{"start":10121.403,"end":10135.347,"text":"但是從我們這5、6年的發展來講已經有具體的行政計畫似乎這個立法來講的話在目前來講並不是那麼迫切跟需要這是以上我對於這個立法當中提供的建議以上謝謝"},{"start":10151.991,"end":10157.839,"text":"今天這個議題的公聽會非常重要透過不管是產官、學以及在社會實務工作者大家一起來討論要怎麼樣去解決我們的少子化"},{"start":10169.275,"end":10170.035,"text":"總人口數將會突破20%"},{"start":10198.971,"end":10212.991,"text":"將會突破20%換句話說每五個人當中就有一個人是超過65歲而且我國在45歲以上的人口也將在明年45歲以上的人口我們在明年會突破半數也會達到51%"},{"start":10214.793,"end":10231.825,"text":"如果照這樣子的速度我們再往後去推算到了2028年的時候我們看到15歲到64歲的工作適合工作的目前我們政府所規劃的所統計的適合工作的年齡人口會將從目前總人口數的69%會掉到66.3%這是史上第一次會"},{"start":10241.314,"end":10262.599,"text":"會跌破了三分之二這個數字讓我們看到我們的人口紅利我們的人口紅利的這個時間已經要結束了因為我們史上會衝破三分之二我們社會會沒有充沛的青壯勞力人力的資源會面臨的整個重整"},{"start":10265.62,"end":10288.316,"text":"所以因此我再次強調因為少子化跟因為缺工的問題中高年齡者未來會成為工作職場很重要的主力那壯世代會成為職場上熱門的熱搜關鍵字因此政府你要怎麼樣去協助這些壯世代可以提升我們的勞動參與跟維持產業的一個競爭力這是非常重要的一個關鍵時刻"},{"start":10292.879,"end":10314.091,"text":"那麼是不是可以讓年長的員工慢慢的降低工時這樣子可以讓他們在正式退休之前他可以將他的寶貴的經驗以及身心的準備也可以讓我們職場中年輕人有更多的機會有更多的機會來接手這些工作這個都是要提供給我們政府的思考"},{"start":10314.631,"end":10339.963,"text":"當然政府針對於中高年齡層超高年齡層有所作為但是實際上的數字告訴我們就是剛剛本席所說明的這個數字我們似乎還有很大的一個討論空間跟執行空間所以我要跟著說跟著全球的這個高年化日益的加劇的時候我們我國我們的高年化這個速度已經是"},{"start":10342.904,"end":10351.308,"text":"全球第三塊我們已經是全球第三塊在這樣的情況之下隨著我們的醫療的發達國內平均餘命越來越長所以我給大家一個數字報告從2023年我們看到國內的平均壽命較前年增加0.39歲"},{"start":10361.193,"end":10384.252,"text":"達到平均男女軍訓是80.23%其中男性76.94%女性83.74%所以我請男性要加油但是國內平均愚民有一個重點不健康的愚民也逐漸在升高顯示我們目前的統計不健康的愚民是多少?8.5年"},{"start":10385.973,"end":10401.532,"text":"那顯示活的老但是不見得他是生活的好所以如果壯世代的國民沒有辦法有好的健康狀態那就會成為醫療社會以及社福以及家庭的重大的負擔"},{"start":10402.233,"end":10424.089,"text":"因此我認為政府有必要積極的來作為有所作為讓壯世代的人可以活著健康讓社福負擔可以減少所以因此我們看到壯世代我們依照人口的統計跟社會面向壯世代佔台灣的三分之一人口但是他掌控了他握有了三分之二的財富"},{"start":10424.87,"end":10425.05,"text":"公聽會議的主席"},{"start":10454.77,"end":10455.531,"text":"政府有所作為"},{"start":10470.327,"end":10470.347,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10486.644,"end":10486.664,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10517.092,"end":10518.655,"text":"謝謝楊委員接續我們請社團法人勞動發展協會理事長辛秉隆"},{"start":10533.106,"end":10560.009,"text":"主席還有在座各位先進大家午安那非常高興有這個機會就這樣的一個非常重要的一個議題來參加這樣的公聽會提供我一些個人的意見那在這個公聽會裡面有提了三個討論提綱上前兩個提綱是非常容易回答的那我非常容易回答的原因是基本上第一個是說我們有沒有需要改變高齡政策思維的需求當然有當然有那有沒有需要其他部會協力當然需要"},{"start":10560.709,"end":10586.301,"text":"那問題是大家從剛才有些先進的發言裡面好像可能是為了凸顯自己的立論的依據然後講政府好像都沒有怎麼改變我們的政策思維都沒有怎麼改變其他部位都沒有在協助事實上不會是這樣子的我相信很多的政策思維已經在改變了那很多的政府相關部位的政策已經參與協助了只是說可能做得不夠好做得不夠好那這樣的話我們就會進入到我們第三個提當做得不夠好的情況底下"},{"start":10586.841,"end":10608.049,"text":"需不需要叫立法來強化那首先針對這個議題我更覺得有幾個部分來談第一個你認為不夠好的是什麼那雖然剛才吳委員提出一個洋洋灑災一個投影片可是這些東西到底是真的是不夠好還是怎樣我不曉得那到底哪些地方不夠好那不夠好可不可以透過另一個專法就來解決"},{"start":10608.905,"end":10625.419,"text":"我想這是要去看要不要訂專法的一個非常重要的依據那我個人認為以我所也參與的部分是在就業部分事實上我們的銀髮族不想用銀髮族用壯世代都可以那他的最大的就業障礙就在年齡歧視就是年齡歧視"},{"start":10626.448,"end":10654.899,"text":"那雖然上我們的中高年級高齡者就業專法已經有規定不能有年齡歧視甚至於我們把什麼叫年齡歧視做個非常清楚的界定但是這個法通過了以後年齡歧視的問題還是普遍存在還是普遍存在所以要解決年齡歧視絕對不是我定一個法就可以解決的是要有一些法則是要去落實那在這次的所提出來的這個專法裡面呢針對年齡歧視這部分只是說不能有年齡歧視"},{"start":10655.68,"end":10681.393,"text":"也就是它對於這個如果去防止年齡歧視禁止年齡歧視並沒有更大的琢磨那如果這種情況底下如果這個法通過了好像問題就解決了那這樣反而會把我們目前所看到的年齡歧視的問題還是繼續存在所以我是覺得這個土法不足以自行我非常認同剛才我先進提到的我們要回到以人為本位也就是針對我們要解決的問題用什麼方法來解決它是最有效的"},{"start":10681.813,"end":10697.209,"text":"第1個專法是不是可以解決我是覺得這個我是存保留的那當然對於這個專法本身它的內容剛才那個劉仕豪院長已經提到了我也非常認同這個法案裡面我覺得比較具體的大概就是定義什麼叫壯世代第二個我們要成立一個專案辦公室"},{"start":10698.049,"end":10721.224,"text":"這方面是每年要做些什麼事情然後其他就是一些訓示性的這部分我大概認同剛才劉委員的意見針對剛才所講的第一個定義壯世代事實上壯是一個有個價值排名端的一個名詞我定55歲是壯世代然後上剛才有記者問我說老師那年輕世代要不要定一個專法那他叫什麼世代"},{"start":10722.355,"end":10722.575,"text":"我特別要框起來齁"},{"start":10751.366,"end":10765.663,"text":"勞保條例的第58條第2項第2款及第5款的規定我特別去查了一下這第5款講的是什麼是當你所從事的工作是有危險有問題的話你可以提早退休55歲退休"},{"start":10767.635,"end":10793.04,"text":"這是以提早退休那這個東西跟我們要立法的目的然後用這個立法目的所切割的年齡我不曉得之間的關聯性在哪裡也就是為什麼要用55歲為什麼不是50歲為什麼不是60歲而是55歲因為我還想要強調如果這個法真的要達到政策效果一定有些政策要去提供政策提供的時候你這個法所框的政策對象就是在這個政策裡面的受益者"},{"start":10793.92,"end":10804.563,"text":"那沒有在你這裡面的就不是受益者那在這種情況底下你的年齡怎麼切就一定要有非常強的論述現在大家對這個壯世代沒有在乎他怎麼切割是因為我們還看不到後面的胡蘿蔔當我看到後面的胡蘿蔔的時候很多的廠商很多的調工就想那為什麼我們沒有被框在這裡面"},{"start":10815.666,"end":10831.977,"text":"所以這個時候為什麼用55歲我覺得不能只用個勞保條例第幾條、第幾條、第幾項就這樣一筆帶過我覺得一定要有非常強的論述我想這是第一個第二個是說要不要訂個辦公室我坦白講我覺得齁如果我們現有的整合機制"},{"start":10832.95,"end":10854.837,"text":"不能work 我不認為訂了專案辦公室就能work為什麼 因為人還是一樣的人一樣的人還是用院長來當還是用政務員來當副召集等等之類的好 如果我們認為既有的機制不能work為什麼訂了專案辦公室他就能work我覺得主要還是在於主席試著有沒有把這問題當成一個問題那你說我用立法就強制他"},{"start":10855.643,"end":10878.061,"text":"可是說法院沒有什麼就像剛剛講這訓示多嘛並沒有說你一定要採取什麼樣的作為嘛所以我個人認為這個可能還是達不到他要想達到的一個效果啦齁那在另外就是說我們說第18條裡面有提到說我們要訂個壯世代人口政策白皮書我想那個人口兩個字是可以拿掉的就是壯世代白皮書政策白皮書啦因為好像又回到人口那邊去了"},{"start":10880.246,"end":10885.497,"text":"這個法會給大家有不同的解讀剛才有先進提到這個法是一個產業發展的法為什麼這個法會大家變成一個產業發展法"},{"start":10890.937,"end":10911.394,"text":"也就是說從各位以上以略先進的發言來講就表示大家對這個法真的不是那麼清楚所以未來要來做討論的時候可能需要把這個法的內容做更具體的描述更具體的定位它是不是一個產業發展的政策一個促進法還是個什麼樣的法 可能要講清楚我想以上的發言謝謝"},{"start":10916.047,"end":10928.131,"text":"謝謝新理事長那接續我們請華梵大學AI推廣中心主任柴本橋老師這是我的第三人生新的職位這邊問一下剛才"},{"start":10941.88,"end":10965.823,"text":"老盲秘書長這邊提的意見就是說老人家都是怎麼死的很多是悶死的我舉個例子我太太的舅舅在中崗他65歲要退休可是他退休前就看到了很多他的前輩呢65歲退休整天悶在家裡隱隱沒事然後68歲就走了本來都整天好好的生龍活虎結果退休之後就悶死了"},{"start":10966.463,"end":10980.848,"text":"所以他就很害怕他趕快開始找一些時候所以他現在在退休在烘焙咖啡然後在賣咖啡所以我們真的不是說只要做長照攝服照顧這些失能的老人就好"},{"start":10982.569,"end":11004.844,"text":"政策區分的對象就是年齡是最基本的一個條件但是呢他們接下來生活的意願跟他們的能力我們要區分好這時候會有不同的政策有不同的人來負責所以我很早之前就提出了這張圖就是說我們區分成這四個象限現有的長照政策只是其中一小塊而已"},{"start":11006.192,"end":11024.152,"text":"那我們其他這幾塊要做的事情包括什麼呢?潮澳政府已經是衛福部在做投資理財是金管會在做的像我的岳母她今年75歲了她十幾年前退休的時候終於用了一生的積蓄買了房子可是呢銀行說對不起房貸只能貸到75歲"},{"start":11027.055,"end":11048.856,"text":"他去年就還完房貸了他說現在一棟房子房貸還完了那我接下來除了等我死了以後留個兒子我還能做什麼所以呢我就找了銀行理財專員說你可以做理財貸款然後呢這個錢拿出來你如果不要風險高的話剛才也有提到說老人家不能讓他風險太高嘛你就買債券"},{"start":11050.317,"end":11061.338,"text":"那剛好我們銀行現在可以說拿去買外國政府債券因為臺灣的政府公債利率很低一點多而已可是外國政府公債可以到4、5%"},{"start":11063.257,"end":11085.936,"text":"那你這個貸款呢是2.2%然後這樣中間就有利差而且國外收入呢現在我們政府很有善的提高了免稅額到750萬所以你這個收入免稅然後你付我們銀行的貸款利率又這麼低你這個房子放在這裡就幫你賺錢那剛好彌補你那個18%被砍掉的部分這樣子"},{"start":11088.641,"end":11111.656,"text":"對於說勞動部、經濟部現在在說我們可以讓這些上了年紀的壯士來回到職場事實上很多人也有一些擔憂就是說我們好不容易等到一些冗員年滿65要讓他退休掉了你現在把他放寬讓他可以不退那更麻煩所以我們寧可怎麼樣呢就是退休還是讓他退退完之後我們再把他聘回來"},{"start":11113.097,"end":11134.66,"text":"這個政府都不用擔心民間企業都會想出辦法解決的不需要政府操心重點就是說你不要讓企業增加負擔然後另外給他們一些誘因像前一陣子通過的法律讓他薪資可以抵稅抵更多這些就是很好的方向一毛錢都不要花政府的錢民間企業自然會想出辦法來解決"},{"start":11136.854,"end":11161.755,"text":"那接下來最重要的是教育部今天針對教育部來了可是教育部好像不在這裡不過沒有關係這個slide我相信會傳給他們那壯世代很希望的是一個人生受到肯定很多人過去呢他學非所用就是說或者說不是他的興趣但是為了工作他去念了一個學位出來然後工作了這麼久退休他想換跑道"},{"start":11162.395,"end":11182.532,"text":"所以我們希望能夠給他一個機會再去學新的東西而不是只是一個推廣教育那種社區大學來學一些有的沒有的而是真的是在大學裡面設立等同學士學位以上的這些學程"},{"start":11183.072,"end":11197.951,"text":"那碩士博士我們不用擔心因為有能力本來就可以上所以我們要做的是開放大學部的學位呢讓壯世代他不需要像一般高中畢業生那麼嚴格的入學資格像現在是要高中畢業以上嘛"},{"start":11198.311,"end":11201.872,"text":"國中畢業,現在壯世代差不多都有這個資格了,然後你工作20年以上,你就可以申請大學入學"},{"start":11215.336,"end":11236.624,"text":"然後呢,因為像我上了年紀嘛,念書也念得比較慢,像我現在在臺大法律系上課,一個學期上13個學分我就覺得超累了,所以我們這個休業年限可能要放寬一點,同時呢,這些壯世代人生經驗這麼豐富,我們應該可以讓他抵免一些學分,共同必修你就不要再去難為他了,對不對?"},{"start":11238.663,"end":11267.297,"text":"那最重要就是說在這些課程是真正大學等級的那像推廣教育法第10條說不能用短期密集上課這我們也應該去修改它讓它變成一個常規因為說在老人家也不想說我一個學期那麼長的時間每個禮拜來兩個小時我現在退休你就讓我一次多上一點課嘛早點把它修完同時呢這壯世代學生經驗很豐富他們可以作為對不起喔這個檔案裡面有"},{"start":11267.757,"end":11289.13,"text":"打字錯誤大學部的課程的助教甚至助理教師因為他們這麼豐富的經驗應該要跟大學生分享像我現在在臺大法律系上課就碰到一些小屁孩就是大學就是剛建大學很多事情都不懂不懂得社會人心險惡啊然後還有很多沒沒搞搞這些都是可以跟他們分享的部分"},{"start":11290.567,"end":11316.14,"text":"壯世代學生的優勢呢他們了解現實世界應用需求很多人都說都在責怪大學訓練出來的不符合實用嘛那這個就是壯世代學生可以幫助解決的那同時呢他們比較了解人性很多大學部學生是想的一些專案設計出來的東西其實並不實用他們可以協助學生跟社會真正接軌那剛剛洪孟凱文還提到AI其實"},{"start":11317.901,"end":11346.471,"text":"AI產業現在發展其實碰到一個瓶頸很多人不知道的大家用ChatGPT用得很高興可是呢ChatGPT已經把全世界人類所製造過所有文章全部看完了那下一步要怎麼突破就是有很多這些壯世代還沒有分享出來的人生經驗如果我們在臺灣特別有這個機會把它注入到AI模型學習這些壯世代的經驗這樣我們臺灣做出來的AI會超過世界上其他國家"},{"start":11347.967,"end":11367.677,"text":"那所以我們用這個方法一次解決兩個問題第一個壯世代開創地產商第二個呢大學退場我們樓下正在開會對不對少子化大學要退場很多可是如果我們能夠讓這些大學轉型像現在華梵大學一樣大量的吸收壯世代的學生也可以解決這個問題所以"},{"start":11369.338,"end":11385.487,"text":"我最討厭讓政府多花錢多設辦公室我覺得就是用這些很簡單的放寬法律障礙讓民間企業還有大學能夠放手去做創新的事情這樣子就能夠解決我們社會上很多問題謝謝大家"},{"start":11408.794,"end":11434.622,"text":"歡迎今天各位專家學者的到來還有我們政府部門來分享大家對於這個議題的看法那這個議題我有兩個一個剛剛前面一直在聽壯世代壯世代我也很贊成剛剛前面有專家學者講說那個到底為什麼要55歲那為什麼不要45歲我覺得那到底在學理上可不可以提出一個"},{"start":11436.277,"end":11436.417,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11451.508,"end":11451.768,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":11474.974,"end":11474.994,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11492.645,"end":11521.128,"text":"這個樣的財富靈活回到社會來我認為這個觀點暗藏著對長輩強烈的剝奪感為什麼因為根據近期的經濟學人的報導嬰兒潮跟其他世代比較普遍有累積資產的習慣我們老輩的事實上是這樣而且貧富差距很大所以我不知道說到底現在我們看到的是那一群20%非常有錢的人而以至於要創造這個法還是真的要去"},{"start":11521.97,"end":11542.598,"text":"針對於我們有一群人他事實上是可能凹凹待不因為他有時候不消費不是因為希望把財富傳承給下一代有時候是因為壽命很長他需要留一些錢所以我們應該更關注是不是長輩他們對於維持生活的安定的懷疑跟不安全感所以我們現在今天等一下就來從55歲以上中高齡跟高齡者的觀點來看這件事情"},{"start":11547.93,"end":11575.235,"text":"那在1970年呢事實上還是三角形我們的金字塔那也就是底下的人很多上邊的人很少可是未來走到像今年2024年的時候已經是呈現一個不太一樣底下已經漸漸的少了因為我剛剛去開早產兒基金會的記者會也一面的在提到孩子一直很少的時候我們就很難能夠"},{"start":11578.169,"end":11578.189,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11600.418,"end":11600.438,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11618.618,"end":11620.199,"text":"臺灣社會必須要生活一般一個人"},{"start":11646.008,"end":11672.887,"text":"剪譜的大概是1萬7不要預想到老人他要講長輩他甚至55歲他1萬7的話他55歲他有可能撫養上邊的兩代比如說他自己的爸媽公婆還要養誰阿公阿嬤這就是我現在朋友當中的處境還有他的小孩正值在大學畢業所以到底有沒有更多錢拿來花"},{"start":11674.241,"end":11675.002,"text":"李慧琼議員李慧琼議員"},{"start":11698.686,"end":11723.131,"text":"可能他就很困難如果再要撫養他的長輩的話更困難如果他還有小孩的話那一樣的所以根據這樣子的一個所得來看的話我們認為要能夠拿來投資的真的就只有那個20%超有錢的人所以我們到底是要為這些人去製一部法嗎這個要去考量"},{"start":11723.473,"end":11723.533,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11741.653,"end":11754.174,"text":"聯合國早在1982年就預告 全球高齡化時代會來臨 會經歷一連串的一個倡議所以2002年就已經提出老化的三大目標 叫做長輩要健康參與跟安全"},{"start":11754.918,"end":11770.754,"text":"所以以這樣的角度來看的話具體來說應該是去達到他的生活智力相對的是比較重要的所以反而我們會比較期待是不是提高我們的高勞動的參與率可是目前看起來我們的55歲到59歲勞動參與率是61.97%水年下降65歲以上的話"},{"start":11777.06,"end":11777.08,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11793.649,"end":11810.335,"text":"因為解聘的為什麼因為你是主管你占的薪水比較高那我就請一個年輕的主管我要付出的代價比較低我反而是要去看那個55歲以上到底他們現在呈現的面貌是什麼這也是我在跟勞動部講說是不是應該要去拿出一些數據來看而不是一直在認為說要翻轉翻轉那個促進20%的富裕者來做我們的投資消費我們應該是更關注於這80%55歲以上"},{"start":11823.639,"end":11824.04,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會議"},{"start":11847.447,"end":11861.065,"text":"職缺去向長輩招手以外還要去思考我剛剛提的55歲以上的那個勞參的一個問題所以我們期待我們的高齡者不分貧富都應該享有生活輔具跟無障礙"},{"start":11861.872,"end":11861.892,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11879.205,"end":11879.225,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11909.386,"end":11909.526,"text":"黃國昌委員"},{"start":11928.162,"end":11956.154,"text":"謝謝昭偉非常感謝我們的昭偉針對有關於壯世代政策及產業發展召開了今天這場公聽會那非常抱歉因為今天早上在各個委員會都還有蠻多的事情在忙碌的沒有辦法全程的參與但不管怎麼樣今天這場公聽會我希望能夠來發言表達對於我自己也有參與連署的壯世代政策及產業發展促進法這部法律的推動"},{"start":11957.194,"end":11985.107,"text":"今天非常感謝這麼多的專家學者來給我們寶貴的意見要跟大家報告的事情是說這一部《壯世代政策與產業發展促進法》它之所以獲得跨黨派委員的支持是希望在一個專法當中能夠有一個比較完整的架構針對臺灣即將要面臨的超高齡社會在各個層面上能夠由在行政院最高能夠跨部會"},{"start":11986.447,"end":12003.093,"text":"來整個統合相關應該要有的工作當然今天與會非常多的專家學者大家可能所重視可能所認為應該要強調可能是臺灣在接下來的超高齡社會當中我們必須要面臨的各種挑戰"},{"start":12004.013,"end":12026.863,"text":"不管是從照顧不管是從福利不管是從就業不管是從人口結構還是未來勞動力的短缺以及應該要怎麼樣來因應這個超高齡社會在各個不同層面上面我們未來隨著人口結構的改變國家所來所會面臨的重大挑戰我相信"},{"start":12027.783,"end":12047.14,"text":"這些重要寶貴的意見都是我們接下來不管是在法律的制定上面還是政策的推動上面非常非常重要參考的一個基準那壯世代的這個概念我們也非常感謝我們黨團的吳俊成委員從一開始加入立法院以來"},{"start":12048.041,"end":12060.711,"text":"就在各個委員會那積極的不僅僅只是在促進創世代這一個概念或者是名詞被普遍的適用那更重要的事情是說針對我們這一些壯世代"},{"start":12063.573,"end":12077.391,"text":"真的在各個層面上面怎麼能夠在國家的政策上面相關的法規制度上面能夠配合著不管是在社會發展上面的需求就業上面的需求以及未來從"},{"start":12079.654,"end":12094.492,"text":"他們的照顧福利乃至於退休等等對整個國家社會乃至於我們年輕的下一代所會造成的衝擊那當然法案在剛推出的時候可能有各個條文在內容"},{"start":12095.836,"end":12106.246,"text":"或者是在廣度上都有需要值得再檢討再修正再精進的地方這也是為什麼今天非常感謝趙偉特別排了這場公聽會來聆聽各位學者專家"},{"start":12111.01,"end":12136.098,"text":"以及各界的代表大家寶貴的意見我相信今天大家在公聽會上面所提出來的意見我們都會虛心的聆聽作為下一個階段在推動這個法律的時候有修正有補充的必要作為立法者這都是我們在接下來整個法案審議的時候必須要去做到的事情"},{"start":12136.838,"end":12161.897,"text":"再次感謝這麼多的專家學者還有行政機關的代表來這個委員會給我們指導讓我們在下一個階段整個法案的推動上希望在這個會期能夠順利的完成二讀跟三讀之後能夠對我們臺灣的壯世代乃至於整個社會都能夠產生積極正面的注意以上謝謝各位 謝謝"},{"start":12165.219,"end":12166.4,"text":"謝謝黃國昌委員給你們強大的壓力最後我們請陳清惠委員發言"},{"start":12176.851,"end":12197.489,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝召委排這個議程也感謝許多學者專家的出席還有官員們的出席我是陳金輝醫師所以在我的病人族群裡面其實他們有三分之一要面臨壯世代的這個重返職場尤其是婦女會有這樣子的問題常常會跟我討論"},{"start":12198.87,"end":12216.257,"text":"很高興今天我有機會來參加壯世代政策與產業發展的公聽會在高齡化的社會成為常態的今天針對55歲以上我們國民的想像也應該隨著人均餘命的延長而改變那我剛有提到因為我是做婦產科的所以"},{"start":12217.237,"end":12242.389,"text":"現在我們生育的年紀其實也不斷的在往後延真的會有看到40以上45以上50以上才做了父母的這樣子的族群所以我們為了促進國家發展國民的健康生活以及避免年齡歧視我們在衛生福利勞動還有經濟發展等政策上都希望藉由這個機會來重新思考才能面對超高齡社會的來臨"},{"start":12243.59,"end":12258.924,"text":"首先我個人很有興趣是想聊一下壯世代的就業國發會的人口推估報告明年就會步入超高齡的社會也就是說老年人人口的比例將佔全台灣的五分之一"},{"start":12259.625,"end":12286.568,"text":"中研院有發表一個臺灣勞工記刊的研究就指出現在國民也花更多時間就學所以就業的時間更晚50歲以上國民的勞動參與率急速的下降中我們更應該思考要如何促進壯世代的就業尤其我們面對AI互聯網科技勞動環境受到數位科技的改變下高齡者就業的想像又更加的不同了"},{"start":12287.108,"end":12306.781,"text":"先前雖然行政院有推動中高齡者及高齡者就業促進專法以及活力老化的政策可是中高齡高齡者的勞參率改善的效果有限所以面對壯世代的就業我認為政府還應該要做的更多而且更多的調整"},{"start":12308.062,"end":12322.014,"text":"104人力銀行發布過中高齡就業的趨勢報告該報告指出企業多數擔心中高齡勞工薪水要求過高所以不敢徵才但其中也談到壯世代續留職場的因素"},{"start":12322.634,"end":12343.6,"text":"除了經濟需求之外其實大多數考慮的是希望繼續與社會產生連結那維持他的身心健康還有貢獻社會等等事實上他重視的優先是工作地點內容還有工作的氛圍友善再來才是薪資水平而不是一般大家想像的那樣"},{"start":12344.56,"end":12360.056,"text":"主旨高齡者壯世代再就業的不只是薪水政策更是工作環境的氛圍所以我們反過來再來看一下中高齡及高齡者的就業促進政策中對於工作的環境氛圍有很努力要改善的空間"},{"start":12361.637,"end":12379.463,"text":"對 他們的這個禁止年齡歧視的篇章前者收益人數比例偏低補助類型也只在硬體的設備改善後者也沒有辦法真正讓職場來歡迎高齡工作者其實我們想像多數公司的人資部門在看到"},{"start":12380.043,"end":12380.743,"text":"所以綜上所述"},{"start":12405.157,"end":12418.682,"text":"在獎勵補助、禁止招募條件、限制這些行為都沒有用的時候我也希望大家可以一起思考要怎麼樣扭轉這些對壯世代就業的職場迷思有一部很有名的電影叫高年級實習生"},{"start":12424.505,"end":12442.035,"text":"創世代會帶著20年前的大公事包只有帶一支筆跟一個筆記本就上班可是其實現在科技非常的進步普及創世代能夠使用電腦AI等等工具讓他們老化的速度延緩也讓他們有很好的職場的表現"},{"start":12444.097,"end":12457.609,"text":"應對超高齡社會的來臨,職場氛圍只是大眾對年齡歧視的縮影,如何透過整體政策促進大眾與職場對壯世代的接受程度,才能促進壯世代的就業?"},{"start":12465.792,"end":12477.843,"text":"好 寫者專家及委員都已經花言完畢那我們請行政機關做整體回應我請兩個人回應一個是勞動部次長 一個是衛福部次長那我們先請勞動部次長"},{"start":12490.404,"end":12506.652,"text":"好謝謝主席非常感謝今天各位委員跟各位學者專家在這個公聽會給我們勞動部很多的這個指教那我在這裡呢就幾點部分來跟我們各位貴賓做一個報告跟各位委員那第一個呢"},{"start":12507.452,"end":12525.665,"text":"有關於這個很多委員指向說對於這個高齡者就業他在這個成效上面可能目前還沒有很好或者是說在這個職場環境部分我們在加強他的這個剛剛陳委員特別提到工作環境的氛圍、氣氛然後還有這個未來的他這個"},{"start":12529.728,"end":12552.735,"text":"給他們更多的肯定那這個部分綜合而言我想這個是鼓勵跟這個讓中高齡能夠繼續留在職場或者是他已經退休了再能夠回到職場一個很重要的一個設計這部分我們勞動部門會跟其他的這個行政院相關部門我們一起來研究把這個目前的這個中高齡就業專法再做精進"},{"start":12553.755,"end":12578.254,"text":"那這部分我們在勞動部這邊我們有設定幾個工作目標在未來推動這個中高齡就業部分我們希望每年能夠協助12萬名以上的中高齡跟高齡的就業這是我們自己部裡面設定的目標那希望說在117年 距離現在還有4年這樣子的一個期限我們能夠鼓勵"},{"start":12580.175,"end":12597.68,"text":"政府和民間各行各業推動中高齡就業的參與率提高到70%這是第二個部分第三個部分我們希望從114年到117年明年到117年四年的期間我們希望能夠"},{"start":12599.458,"end":12626.378,"text":"協助12萬名以上的高齡者特別是高齡者65歲以上的高齡者就業因為這樣我們在就業協助辦法裡面我們也會做適度的修正目前企業僱用一名65歲以上的高齡者我們是每個月也補助15000塊持續可以一年這部分我們可以再來做一些研議如果這個金額或是期限"},{"start":12627.339,"end":12627.659,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12648.84,"end":12648.9,"text":"主席"},{"start":12678.639,"end":12683.302,"text":"主席以及在座各位委員大家午安大家好非常感謝各位委員今天對於我們整個這一個壯世代政策及產業發展所表示的意見那衛福部在這邊非常感非常感佩但是呢也在這邊提出四個重點"},{"start":12706.136,"end":12731.025,"text":"我們基本上還是持保留態度那有四個理由第一個是內容實質面第二個是有關於現有的施政作為第三是有關於法制面第四最後是組織面第一個就整個內容實質面而言呢壯世代這個名詞呢基本上有一個事實上是不明確的法律概念有三個不明確第一個法律概念上不明確第二個學術定律不明確第三個政策事情上的不明確"},{"start":12732.185,"end":12750.974,"text":"第1個就整個國際勞工組織45歲這是ILO的定義中高齡就65歲以上UN這是聯合國的定義65歲這是退休55歲的那個定義剛剛我想新明隆老師剛剛有提到就是說這基本上只是用目前勞保的一個定義事實上可能甚待商榷"},{"start":12752.415,"end":12770.296,"text":"不符合《世代正義》第一個,剛剛吳漢委員有提到李瑞行委員有提到現在目前的中高齡戰後的嬰兒草基本上都是全世界經濟強勢的一個generation那這裡面甚至還有20跟80的一個區分高齡者事實上自己本身也非常非常多元化"},{"start":12773.659,"end":12789.438,"text":"政府職能應該優先照顧比較弱勢目前比較明確的數據應該是1977年到1988年林宗鴻教授他已經有一個研究今年世代所以這個可能要世代正義的問題必須要嚴肅考慮"},{"start":12791.56,"end":12816.641,"text":"這一個整個現在目前剛剛我想勞動部這邊也提到我們現在目前所推動的基本上是以就業為優先那麼鼓勵中高齡跟女性就業同時呢本部也會積極的推動參與志工那我想兩個數字第一個剛剛我想那個勞動部許次長也提到就是說我們現在目前的經發會已經有提到我們現在目前有一個設定目標我們在中高齡的部分會提高到70%高齡者會勞動參與率會提高到10%"},{"start":12819.824,"end":12848.055,"text":"那麼還有另外我們的志工臺灣裡面我們現在目前全臺灣有志工呢總共有110萬那麼在這裡面65歲以上我們有36萬50到64歲是26.5我們這邊也會提出志工臺灣的方案來回應好 第二個是有關於整個現在目前的這一個施政作為現在現有已經有一個機制就是我們現在目前由政委所推動的各部會通力合作超高齡社會對策方案"},{"start":12848.735,"end":12877.186,"text":"我們預計在這一個112到115會投入1206億那麼結合15個部還有推動345個方案剛剛林博文校長有提到就是說有關University based retired community各位我跟各位報告教育部這裡面事實上就已經在這裡面還有我們的整個我們的這一個社區照顧關懷據點其實這裡面事實上都是推動整個所謂的活力老化的一個相關的方案所以這裡面"},{"start":12878.046,"end":12878.907,"text":"中高齡及高齡者就業促進"},{"start":12908.626,"end":12908.826,"text":"感謝各位 謝謝"},{"start":12936.311,"end":12945.14,"text":"謝謝理事長因為我們葉元之委員也非常關心最後跑來了給你五分鐘最後的話言"},{"start":12950.258,"end":12977.278,"text":"謝謝主席在場所有各位先進今天特別來支持我們吳春辰委員一直在推動這個壯世代因為我之前在新北市議會的時候我也是非常重視關心長輩的各項議題我覺得就是說為什麼要特別有這樣一個基本法最主要就是過去其實大家比如說以地方政府來講對於長輩的業務就是分在兩個局處一個局處就是社會局為什麼要在社會局給他一點福利"},{"start":12979.8,"end":12996.938,"text":"衛生局希望他能夠健康希望你能夠一直健康不要去拖垮我們的財政社會局就是說我們就多給你個福利當然我覺得福利也是非常重要如果有資源的話多給長輩福利我是絕對支持的那當然健康也是非常重要"},{"start":12997.498,"end":13011.125,"text":"但是我覺得我今天要提出來一個概念就是我們不應該把長輩當作是好像都是比較負面的感覺應該是把他們當作資產就是他成為我們整個社會一個不可或缺的一個非常寶貴的資產"},{"start":13012.746,"end":13013.986,"text":"從尊重長輩的角度推廣長輩的業務"},{"start":13032.552,"end":13051.79,"text":"像其實有非常多的研究高齡者的一些理論其實都有提出來像我們有一個概念是第三人生其實很多長輩在第三人生的時候他們在追尋追尋自我的一種人生的實現就是說他要去就是說要去成就他這個人生"},{"start":13052.771,"end":13076.067,"text":"我跟很多長輩聊天過有些長輩說他年輕的時候因為都在帶弟妹家庭經濟比較困難所以都在陪弟妹那好不容易辛苦了一輩子退休了他希望能夠補足他年輕的時候那個缺憾所以對他來講他在完整他這人生的人格我們應該要從這樣的角度去出發"},{"start":13077.108,"end":13092.97,"text":"那當然這個部分的話在在以各個高齡教育就非常重要就是高齡教育實施的目的有沒有站在這樣的角度就是幫助他能夠讓他覺得在他的第三人生是真正可以讓他人格可以完整那從"},{"start":13094.296,"end":13109.38,"text":"我們把長輩從這個把它變成目的之後我覺得我們整個思維都會很不一樣所以因此我覺得吳春城委員提這個壯世代的概念其實我覺得他就是要喚醒大家這樣的一個對長輩的一個思維的轉換"},{"start":13112.361,"end":13139.349,"text":"那基本法的定定也就是要告訴大家長輩是我們這個社會非常重視的資產當然他可以在任何不同的方面去實現這個就是大家可以針對不同的項目去討論可是大方向是一致的嘛那再來就是我覺得推動世代共榮也是非常重要那這個部分也是要落實在教育裡面以前學校都有在推一個東西叫服務學習服務學習有些學生他就是去一些長輩的機構去跟長輩互動那"},{"start":13142.37,"end":13155.163,"text":"他們在服務前跟服務後發現他對長輩的概念完全不一樣有些人有刻板印象覺得長輩就容易生氣啊覺得長輩就是比較兇啊可是當他們跟他們互動之後發現沒有啊其實長輩非常可愛而且長輩很會鼓舞人啊"},{"start":13156.045,"end":13179.373,"text":"讓這些學生在服務的過程當中成長很多不僅是世代共榮同時之間也讓那些學生學習到跟不同年齡的人的溝通然後會反饋到他的家庭裡面他回到家面對他的長輩他覺得我在外面對其他長輩都可以這樣子相處這麼好為什麼回到家裡對我的長輩都總是要生氣呢"},{"start":13180.453,"end":13199.057,"text":"所以推動世代共榮我覺得這也是雖然不是壯世代主題但是相關應該也是我們要發展的一個重點所以以上特別來這邊來支持一下我覺得這樣的概念當然是非常的好那至於說台灣的細節我相信透過大家的討論一定可以更精進的謝謝"},{"start":13204.451,"end":13221.269,"text":"那大家都歡迎王秉豪說以下結論依據立法院職權行使法規定委員會應提出公聽會報告送交本院前提委員及出席者公聽會報告作為審查特定議案之參考"},{"start":13222.332,"end":13242.399,"text":"我們會把各位的寶貴意見及書面資料編輯、陳冊、分送給本院的全體委員以及與會的政務機關代表、學者專家參與今天非常感謝各位的出席並提供寶貴意見本次的公聽會到此結束上位"},{"start":13249.018,"end":13250.419,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":13273.976,"end":13275.337,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}