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本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案。"},{"start":2063.588,"end":2066.249,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":2084.507,"end":2097.899,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．提出修正條文。」本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．提出修正條文。」"},{"start":2109.329,"end":2131.048,"text":"而每一次主任委員事實上他的時間也沒辦法前面的去每個地方然後所了解的也是有限所以比較常年比較多的就是平地原住民的"},{"start":2131.869,"end":2133.25,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":2141.141,"end":2145.203,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案。 本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案"},{"start":2169.248,"end":2174.878,"text":"有關主任委員即將經過地方民意的"},{"start":2176.477,"end":2200.414,"text":"同意這個部分當初之所以會提這個部分最主要就是蘇貞昌當院長的時候一直強調要分流自治因為《原住民組織法》一直在過去的八年多來唯一沒有提出《原住民組織法》任內的總統就是過去的八年"},{"start":2201.235,"end":2230.481,"text":"那未來恐怕也是很難很難很難送來所以這個部分才會有所謂的分流竟然院長、處院長有所謂的分流自治才會提出這個部分但是因為上次討論的時候大家有有不同的意見所以我就把這個這個部分有有做一個修正動議有修正動議然後我也另外提出了這個另案另行"},{"start":2231.616,"end":2245.908,"text":"提案也把這個部分刪除了所以這個部分目前就我新的提案是沒有包含這個部分就是第三條的第二項是沒有包含那另外就是族群委員的部分了"},{"start":2246.869,"end":2271.018,"text":"主委的部分我上次也講過了因為現在的族群委員的代表性已經沒有這個過去像這個族群委員能夠代表這個族群能夠具有這個族群的一個相當的地位這個基本上就已經沒有這樣的一個功能了所以我才會把它改為無極值那事實上這個"},{"start":2273.57,"end":2276.872,"text":"原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":2294.324,"end":2301.307,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案。 本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案"},{"start":2325.285,"end":2325.785,"text":"請出席黨團代表表示意見"},{"start":2342.11,"end":2366.398,"text":"好 謝謝那我代表民進黨團先發言那針對今天我們司法跟內政併案審查的原住民委員會的組織法關於第三條跟第四條那第三條有講到由山地原住民與平地原住民輪流擔任但是這個輪流擔任這樣的意思就代表說山地原住民做完再換原地"},{"start":2366.818,"end":2388.682,"text":"平地原住民當然首先一開始我是認為說一樣是原住民有必要再去把它區分叫做山地原住民跟平地原住民這個是我一開始我就覺得當然原住民會有不同的族不同的族之間然後要保留各族的文化這個我們是認為支持的但是如果你要把它再化作"},{"start":2389.142,"end":2410.762,"text":"三地跟平地這樣的區分是否是有意義的區分這個是我一開始我心裡就會想不過當然法律上是有去定義三地跟平地那主委的任命由三地跟平地輪流擔任這件事情那萬一如果今天是一個平地原住民那他確實擔任不錯"},{"start":2413.103,"end":2436.093,"text":"確實做得不錯,然後也受到整個原住民民族覺得這個組委真的做得不錯,但是因為整個內閣,如果內閣總辭,內閣總辭後又提名,又要新的重組內閣,那麼就輪流擔任,這個讓覺得做得不錯,就不能再被提名,因為卡到輪流擔任,就一定要換下一個就是由"},{"start":2437.615,"end":2442.241,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議"},{"start":2452.555,"end":2477.327,"text":"所以我覺得這樣輪流擔任就有為責任政治的一個精神那至於副主委的部分如果同時間幾位副主委要有平地原住民同時也應該要有三地原住民就是說兩個不同的同時都要在副主委那我想就可以兼顧到原住民他們會擔心平地跟三地是否會有照顧沒有辦法周全的狀況所以我是覺得我們在第三條的時候我們要用平地跟"},{"start":2482.469,"end":2490.555,"text":"三地來做輪流擔任這個我覺得是沒有必要而且也不符合責任政治那第四條的規定就是要把這個"},{"start":2494.122,"end":2505.247,"text":"這個原住民委員會的委員這一個把它無幾職要把它改成無幾職那我想原住民委員會的組織原住民委員會的委員他是有幾職這個從過去到現在那主要他並不是一個任務性的編組他是等於一個長職而且這一些委員也確實他都會在這一些原鄉裡面然後會"},{"start":2520.013,"end":2543.463,"text":"本院委員會在地方,他可能要去聽取一些地方意見,然後或者是跟原住民互動,然後去整合意見,然後再給整個原住民委員會來做他整個政策上的一個推動。那既然說這一些他是有任務,有常態性任務是由他去做的,那所以我們給他相對應讓他有一些知己,"},{"start":2544.502,"end":2547.084,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議"},{"start":2563.601,"end":2588.879,"text":"國民黨重新執政後,又要把它改成郵寄職,那何必這樣去做呢?因為大家都覺得說,為什麼會有原住民?就是過去,可能在於整個漢人的文化裡面,原住民受到了剝削,所以大家認為說,我們現在台灣是基於尊重原住民文化,然後我們所以有這樣的一個特定的組織,那我們現在既然也覺得說,他們可能要在那裡跑,"},{"start":2591.954,"end":2593.435,"text":"那還有沒有哪一位黨團代表要表示意見?"},{"start":2593.435,"end":2596.538,"text":"那還有沒有哪一位黨團代表要表示意見?"},{"start":2625.999,"end":2636.27,"text":"中委員對不起其實我都尊重國民黨或者民眾黨看要不要先發言那我來講一下我這個這個比較"},{"start":2638.368,"end":2662.194,"text":"不一樣的一個看法啦我們這個原民會的一個組織法第三條裡面本來是我們設置一個主任委員特任原住民來擔任本來是這樣那現在呢你又把它區分說是由山地跟平地原住民輪流擔任我一直在想說其實台灣的原住民也不是只有"},{"start":2663.422,"end":2669.404,"text":"三地原住民也不是只有平地原住民那現在平埔族你叫他怎麼辦"},{"start":2671.513,"end":2694.08,"text":"我們總不能說你們要來尊重我們我們要來尊重我們那我們就跟人家說你那個平埔族不算這樣講就不好了吧基於各個民族的這樣的一個尊重你像比如說我們這個新法政法條文裡面去強調保障原住民族的一個地位但是我們在內政委員會我們討論了多少次"},{"start":2696.021,"end":2710.19,"text":"這111年作成的憲判制第17號判決意旨裡面就是強調這個平埔族也應該具有相同的一個地位那像鄭委員應該我沒有記錯的話是阿美族阿美族的代表阿美族的驕傲對不對所以我們兩個常常會跑來跑去吵來吵去我都覺得"},{"start":2716.203,"end":2718.305,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案：請審議"},{"start":2735.427,"end":2752.12,"text":"原住民平地原住民輪流看起來公平但我也覺得不對因為變成說原住民裡面刻意去把它做一個分化這個也沒有必要啦我覺得沒有必要啦我是認為3地原住民有資格來當組委"},{"start":2754.562,"end":2773.465,"text":"平地原住民當然也有資格來當,平埔族他也有資格來當,我這樣認為啦。那如果要這樣分的話,真的要細分的話,那現在這16族裡面,我可以講說好啊,那個鄭天財表現最優秀,阿美族第一個輪流。"},{"start":2774.858,"end":2776.881,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議"},{"start":2792.201,"end":2809.541,"text":"原住民的身份你就可以來當這個組委我覺得這樣會比較好一點因為畢竟不是只有山地跟高山原住民你還有一個評估組除非你認為說那個憲法法庭亂判的沒有人敢這樣講"},{"start":2811.53,"end":2832.288,"text":"你這樣講就沒道理了,你這樣講,那一個判決出來是為了尊重原住民族,所以這個不要基於自己喔,自己主觀上的一個好惡,我覺得也不好啦,我覺得這樣也不好。請教召委的就是說,我們現在一個一個條文來是吧,還是要全部,就先第三條來是吧,如果第三條來我就先講到這個地方。"},{"start":2832.608,"end":2862.088,"text":"我們就直接一起一起一起這樣比較有效率那也可以啦我那我是覺得像譬如說那你如果說講到第四條本來委員這個19到29人各族代表一人依聘用條例來做一個聘用那其他你就認為說全部都是無幾值那我們現在修正條文是19到29人這個部分全部都是無幾值每一個族群都有一個我是有一個代表我覺得正當合法"},{"start":2863.409,"end":2877.678,"text":"也合理啦原民委員本來是有幾職然後各族群的一個代表性來的一定有代表性你搭配著專家學者來肩負這樣的一個專業性我一直認為這個是"},{"start":2879.119,"end":2904.321,"text":"非常兩全其美的一個設計就像我們立法院裡面一樣每一個政黨有區域立委代表整個區域裡面選民的心聲各政黨也有部分區同時也代表的民運代表也各捐具像很多委員也都有他的一個專業性韓國昌委員也好麥委員也好都有他自己的專業性那也可以容納多元的一個聲音"},{"start":2906.431,"end":2930.567,"text":"我是覺得我在我都不想陷入說原民跟原民委員之間的一個競爭但是我比較持平的看就是說再思考一下啦高度再拉高一點思考一下倒也不是說每一個政黨要輪流執政改來改去的一個問題啦過去如果現在這個狀況過去也發生那過去因為我自己執政"},{"start":2935.083,"end":2937.404,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議案。」 本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議"},{"start":2964.438,"end":2969.569,"text":"民主的一個政策、制度、計劃跟相關法規的先期的一個審查。 這個其實是很龐大的。"},{"start":2973.679,"end":2986.984,"text":"有需要用心還有委員會裡面的一個會議的一個重要議案的一個掀起的一個審議甚至與相關機關原住民族事務的掀起協調聯繫主持到參與族群相關的一個會議調查研究協調除非我們發現這個委員你把他推舉出來以後他全部都沒事幹"},{"start":2998.709,"end":3001.45,"text":"不能光一個組織的話我相信你說無幾職也好奇怪也好奇怪所以這些事情我把它看完以後連組織還有出席專案小組的一個會議參加這個族群碎石的一個祭儀民俗文化跟傳統祭儀跟演慶典跟活動還有辦理那個主委交辦事項等正職的這些工作我看過就覺得這些工作"},{"start":3028.7,"end":3050.238,"text":"立法委員除了還要一個跑選區以外我相信這些委員他其實也都肩負著很大的一個責任所以你就全部要把他變成無極職真的我也請我們在場的不同政黨的委員大家再來做一個善施連立法委員你跟他講說你們立法委員全部都是無極職部分區一定跳腳"},{"start":3054.414,"end":3070.451,"text":"部分區一定跟你講說我很專業我不用選舉而已我要勞心我要勞力我的能力都不輸給你們我本身這世界裡面我有兩屆是區域接下來我兩屆是部分區我也不覺得說我到了部分區以後"},{"start":3071.232,"end":3094.209,"text":"我對整個立法院的一個貢獻、心力、投注就會比較少所以區域的如果跟他講說不溫區的全部都不用薪水我會跟你說你回去睡覺吧你乾脆不要選要沒薪水大家都來沒薪水要沒薪水大家都來沒薪水所以你把這個我們是基於整個對原住民族的一個尊重跟他重視讓這些委員本來是有幾職那後來因為這一些小波折我會覺得"},{"start":3099.893,"end":3114.786,"text":"有過的地方啊去改進提名的部分不適合的部分那你怎麼樣一個政黨裡面你要被挨罵本來就是合理但是就是要殺手竟然全部都變成無極職我看到居然講說乾脆立法院全部都無極職算了"},{"start":3115.782,"end":3115.802,"text":"黃委員"},{"start":3143.317,"end":3164.698,"text":"謝謝主席其實每次黨團協商的時候我就希望說大家之前有的論述在討論條文的時候其實我覺得都各自表述過了啦那黨團協商基本上就是一個交換意見跟立場的平台能夠達成共識是很好那沒有辦法達成共識就沒有辦法達成共識嘛要不然"},{"start":3169.696,"end":3188.727,"text":"針對有關原住民族的事務那台灣民眾黨黨團我們會很虛心的去聆聽我們原住民族朋友的心聲跟想法因為自己不是原住民有的時候不要表現得太"},{"start":3190.307,"end":3202.888,"text":"就自己不是就虛心一點多聽人家的聲音跟想法這個是我向來在面對原住民族事務的時候我以一貫的立場跟看法"},{"start":3205.898,"end":3231.844,"text":"針對這件事情的決定上一次在條文討論的時候我想某個程度上我的想法跟立場已經表達得非常清楚了沒有必要今天利用這個機會全部重新再講一次只不過是台灣民眾黨團八位委員因為我看今天要協商有共識基本上是"},{"start":3233.223,"end":3247.8,"text":"看起來難度非常的高啦趨近於不可能但我也不要先預設立場那我們八位委員會虛心的聆聽各界的聲音特別是我們原住民朋友的想法然後做我們最終的決定"},{"start":3251.841,"end":3276.588,"text":"不過剛好利用協商的這個機會今天因為處理到第四條也是我之前在討論的時候關心的議題我有比較深的感觸請園民會的朋友稍微聽一下我比較深的感觸是什麼台灣民眾黨黨團不大只有八名委員"},{"start":3278.308,"end":3303.81,"text":"這八名委員可能在原民會的長官眼中看起來微不足道所以對於我們黨團希望要求你們提供的東西你們大概是用最隨便的態度來應付我為什麼這樣講我第一次請黨團發文給你們原民會結果回我兩張新聞稿"},{"start":3306.479,"end":3335.496,"text":"我如果要拿新聞稿我需要透過黨團發文嗎?我不會Google嗎?我不會上原民會的網站嗎?我為了這個事情我在內政委員會正式提案跟你們要資料我上質詢台的時候我跟你們主委講得很清楚我跟你們所知你們發兩張新聞稿給我搞到我要到委員會去提案去要資料"},{"start":3339.66,"end":3363.056,"text":"讓我覺得很難過,我希望這件事不要再發生了。那天主委在備訓台應該在內政委員會諮詢,跟我說不會,以後絕對不會再發生了。結果,我們在討論第四條的時候,跟你要第四條相關的資料,我也感謝高金委員發文,知道我關心這個議題,有副本給我。"},{"start":3364.369,"end":3392.659,"text":"剛我看到高金委員手上有厚厚一疊資料我看了覺得很奇怪啊怎麼你有我沒有他說我有副本給我我剛去了解是你們只回高金委員沒有回文給我沒有附件所以我覺得感慨很深啊我對原民的朋友在任何的議題上面我們向來是大力支持不懂的事情我就虛心的聽"},{"start":3394.899,"end":3419.111,"text":"虛心的學習希望在立法院行使職權的時候能夠做出對原民的朋友最好的決定但是在原民會的眼中台灣民眾黨可能只是一個小小的黨團沒有幾席立委是用這樣子的態度在面對我們讓我感觸非常非常的深但我也不會因此而改變我們本來應該有的初衷"},{"start":3423.021,"end":3440.647,"text":"在這件事情的決定上我們會很負責任的聽各界的意見做出我們最後投票的決斷但我只希望原民會的朋友在處理一些行政事務的時候請不要差別待遇的這麼嚴重"},{"start":3442.572,"end":3461.165,"text":"請不要差別待遇得這麼嚴重我今天只是剛好利用協商的會場跟協商有關係的基礎資料我看到差別這麼大有感而發其他更深層的問題我不會在協商的現場講提醒主委下一次內政委員會他來備詢的時候我會過去質詢謝謝"},{"start":3472.813,"end":3499.91,"text":"真的有黃國昌委員講的這種事嗎?我想可能有點誤會就是因為我們提供給高金委員的資料就是高金委員在要求的這個相關資料我們都給那副本給黃委員我們一般副本我們就沒有去做處理我們都會針對正版黃國昌委員這樣對你們的指控不要說他啦如果是我我也受不了喔"},{"start":3501.771,"end":3523.258,"text":"哪有什麼兩個委員你說高金委員跟你要資料你給他完整的你給我的是兩張我也會跟你拍桌喔這個話要先講清楚至於黃委員之前要的資料因為我不太清楚他是要什麼資料是不是我們提供的時候這個要的這個資料不明確我們在那個會議在內政委會已經有給黃委員說明了"},{"start":3530.024,"end":3552.196,"text":"因為剛剛那個吳委員有先舉手是還是說我知道我解釋一下因為現在莊委員也在對原民會有一點我還原一下我還原一下吼那的確我們在上一次在這邊協商完畢了之後的當天黃國昌委員有回到內政委員會裡面去質詢了我們的主委"},{"start":3552.896,"end":3571.903,"text":"他不是公文給你們他是直接請別民會主委提供資料給他我是公文給你們主委有在當天的質詢台上回應黃國昌主委說他要回去把所有的資料給他"},{"start":3572.763,"end":3591.816,"text":"這是我看到的所以我必須要講清楚所以莊委員不要生氣我另外的行文給他是他給我的只是他把這個給我的副本再交給黃國昌委員但是事實上在內政委員會的質詢的時候黃國昌委員有質詢一項不是曾竹偉"},{"start":3592.496,"end":3617.411,"text":"曾主委嘴巴上已經答應他說會把推薦的這些族群委員你推薦幾位哪幾位推薦他甚至還說行政院有推薦所以他說能不能把這個資料全部提供出來這是我聽到完整的曾主委的回應為什麼今天黃國昌委員會那麼生氣就是這樣以上我來補充說明 謝謝"},{"start":3620.672,"end":3642.719,"text":"我先回應黃委員剛剛提到新聞稿這個部分黃委員當時要資料是要我們主委到帛琉擔任特使的行程但是因為外交部給我們建議是因為我們當時主委還在帛琉所以我們提他叫我們建議我們就是提供這個擔任特使的新聞稿這是第一個就是在"},{"start":3649.68,"end":3667.685,"text":"主要是因為高金委員他請問根本要資料的時候有把黃委員辦公室掛在副本這裡但是我們一般處理公文我們就直接針對正本所以回應了這個高金委員所以我們給高金委員資料都是高金委員要什麼我們大概都給了那另外一個關於"},{"start":3669.305,"end":3697.538,"text":"黃委員在內政委員會要求主委提供資料我們都提供我們會提供副主委這個再請你們跟黃國昌委員解釋一下然後或者是再把資料補齊給他那這樣好不好你們跟他解釋一下我想他也不是不講理啦就是你們雙方溝通不要誤會就好"},{"start":3699.039,"end":3699.319,"text":"主席吳委員"},{"start":3717.348,"end":3744.027,"text":"協商那我也特別去看了一下這個原民會的組織法是什麼時候公布施行是在10年前103年那因此我也特別去看了當時整個立法的一個過程那我看到的就是說這個部分今天在場的兩位委員鄭天財委員高金委員都有提案版本"},{"start":3745.034,"end":3770.273,"text":"那甚至是有很多的條文都是按照院版按照委員們的版本這樣子通過的所以我今天十年之後回到這個地方我也很想了解是什麼原因要去做這個第三條跟第四條的修法那我就就第三條第四條每一個修正重點我來做一個我的看法"},{"start":3771.875,"end":3793.036,"text":"鄭天財委員他第三條他有三個修正重點那第一個部分就是提到主委要山平原輪流那其實對我來講我不能接受為什麼因為我就一向主張山平原是很錯誤的歷史的殖民遺序分類"},{"start":3794.662,"end":3811.69,"text":"對我們中華民國這個民主憲政國家其實在我們的憲法上面有這樣的一個分類我就已經覺得很丟臉但是很可惜雖然上次的修憲委員有提但是沒有被這樣子認同但是我們會繼續努力"},{"start":3815.091,"end":3818.596,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人分別擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案：請審議"},{"start":3830.934,"end":3853.386,"text":"三元平原到底為什麼要三平原輪流我是覺得說我們倒不如把利器放在真的我們就把這個三平原不當的歷史的分類我們就把它拿掉這是我第一個意見第二個部分修正重點是提到說這個組委要經過原住民的議員相長這個沒有了嗎"},{"start":3859.497,"end":3883.263,"text":"好 這個已經確定沒有了齁對 因為這個真的是我覺得真的是因為有違憲的疑慮嘛齁那我們就不談了齁那任期四年的部分我個人就是如果這個第二沒有所以任期四年也沒有了嗎喔 任期四年也沒有了所以只留下三平原"},{"start":3885.952,"end":3886.893,"text":"原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":3906.631,"end":3933.584,"text":"韓光所以一直以來如果說原民會能夠有所謂的政委然後兼任原民會主委那麼他們就可以去做一個調度統合對我們整個原住民事務的推動我相信是會大大的加分那只是說這個部分會不會也要連動去修行政院的組織法"},{"start":3934.844,"end":3956.397,"text":"這個部分就留給大家討論但是基本上我的立場我是真的覺得說可以這個是我個人的一個意見關於第四條的部分我也要說明一下因為第四條我有特別去翻條文所以我也想聽聽看"},{"start":3959.81,"end":3980.002,"text":"因為當時103年公佈那當時我看到這個第四條現在的條文就是高金素梅委員的版本也就是院版然後鄭天財委員的版本其實是更前進的他希望這些族群委員是"},{"start":3981.455,"end":4002.14,"text":"簡任十三指等比現在的版本十二指等還要更高經過了十年是什麼原因這個部分我就不予置評但是我想要去討論一下因為我很難過我把這個稱作是自我閹割因為我們"},{"start":4007.346,"end":4030.614,"text":"現在像我們跟客委會那些就不一樣他們是諮詢委員然後我不理解然後我最不理解的是說我們到底懂不懂原住民族族群委員真正的意涵委員會真正的意涵我們原住民族在台灣未來可能還超越16族這麼多的族群"},{"start":4033.891,"end":4047.524,"text":"然後由一個單一族群的人擔任主委而且他還不是真正的所謂的一個委員制不是由各族群推派代表再由這些代表推舉主委副主委"},{"start":4049.602,"end":4063.914,"text":"那我們現在這樣的方式一個單一族群的族委他要怎麼樣去做全國原住民族族群的事務所以我們才會跟別人不一樣我們才會有所謂的有幾職的族群委員"},{"start":4064.955,"end":4079.798,"text":"我不理解為什麼要自我閹割一方面說我們要爭取像是禁法補償原住民的權益一方面我們又要去把我們原住民的服務能量把它毀滅掉這個要對歷史負責啊我真的不理解我們前面的人這麼辛苦"},{"start":4088.669,"end":4117.34,"text":"去弄出這樣的一個組織法那今天要自我閹割我是真的不理解那第二個我要特別談聘用委員他們是聘用委員我也去調了資料我看到他們的聘書啊因為我以前也不清楚到底族群委員是是怎麼選出來是在做哪些事他們的工作"},{"start":4118.496,"end":4119.517,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":4140.532,"end":4162.625,"text":"所以他們等於是在代替我們整個原住民族委員會來去做各地的一個地方事務工作內容非常的繁雜非常的辛苦那我是希望說主席有沒有可能下一次請族群委員來講話因為我也不知道到底他們覺得如何"},{"start":4164.751,"end":4172.315,"text":"這個我是覺得說這個部分我覺得不應該我其實上一次第一次聽到的時候我心裡很難過我覺得為什麼我們原住民族人做事為政府做事我們只能無幾值嗎我們不配領薪水嗎所以我覺得這個部分我真的完全不能理解"},{"start":4192.591,"end":4210.797,"text":"那再來就是他是一個行政團隊的概念阿我上次也是嚇了一跳說綠油油所以呢我也特別去調了資料我們來看一下阿不是就是這樣嗎新竹市政府的勒"},{"start":4222.472,"end":4230.877,"text":"高鴻安去當了新竹市市長我們也看到所有的民眾黨的團隊也都進去當幕僚團隊阿不是嗎那邊有圖卡那馬英九時期的馬英九時期的族群委員我也特別去調阿阿不就是長這樣嗎所以我不太理解為什麼要這樣子就是"},{"start":4252.523,"end":4254.886,"text":"去自我毀滅自我閹割然後自我矮化自我汙名化我真的是沒有辦法理解所以我今天特別到這個地方來講"},{"start":4265.304,"end":4291.877,"text":"那我相信我們的族群聘用委員他確實有他的存在但是我更重要的我要講的是當他是一個行政團隊的概念的時候我們應該著重的是他的工作態度他的遴選方法還有我們所謂的行政團隊的人才培育所以我覺得這個部分這一次我有感受到受侮辱"},{"start":4295.899,"end":4320.584,"text":"我真的覺得嚴重受侮辱真的然後原住民自己這樣子我真的覺得不可思議自己的版本十年之後要這樣子自我矮化自我嚴格自我污名化真的我不理解所以請大家我們就三思謝謝我會再繼續發言"},{"start":4326.537,"end":4343.952,"text":"中招委首先對於第三條保留鄭天財委員所說的輪流擔任這樣的一個機制或者是其實應該更精確來說是翁曉琳鄭天財委員所提的"},{"start":4345.273,"end":4369.945,"text":"這個原住民委員會的組委由山原或平原的族群身份的輪流擔任其實這樣的一個想法很容易理解其實不要說是山原、平原在各式各樣的族群當中性別各式各樣的很清楚的一個可以分類的團體當中都會出現這樣的一個要求其實在台灣的"},{"start":4371.286,"end":4379.082,"text":"地方選舉的地方自治的傳統當中比如說桃園就有長期以來所謂的閩客"},{"start":4380.222,"end":4381.903,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案"},{"start":4410.162,"end":4411.703,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":4426.5,"end":4452.101,"text":"我父親的身份是客家,那麼對於客家委員會也常常有要求南客跟北客要有均衡的對待,所以因此剛剛翁小林委員版跟鄭天財委員版有提到說如果原住民族當中在台灣的確有三原跟平原的分類,所以希望能夠均勻的照顧到單一族群不被"},{"start":4453.373,"end":4462.396,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議案。 本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議案。 本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議案。"},{"start":4482.683,"end":4510.505,"text":"那麼至於所謂的南克北克那也沒有建築於法律那至於輪流擔任這樣的說法呢會出現一個問題剛剛講到我們講性別的時候他以同一時間總數的比例那如果是輪流因為考慮到台灣目前的設置啊政務官部會首長並沒有明確的任期他可以做一個月也可以做一年"},{"start":4511.57,"end":4520.352,"text":"甚至有人是做了一輩子就是做到他不能再擔任為止那因此所謂的輪流擔任在法律上未來的發展"},{"start":4521.816,"end":4548.125,"text":"還是有可能在時間上呈現出不能夠均勻的照顧到相對應的族群身上所以如果考量到這樣的機制設計呢輪流因為沒有明確任期嘛如果一任兩年或一任四年比如說現場我們在場有民眾黨的朋友聽說民眾黨他們的部分區委員呢是用兩年兩年來做區分如果同一個職缺兩年是誰另外兩年是誰"},{"start":4549.305,"end":4571.287,"text":"這個就不是輪流了,這就是明確的把每個人的兒份明確的定出來那由於原住民主委員會的主委他並沒有任期是四年那如果我們這裡說必須輪流那輪流率是一個人兩年嗎?一個族群是兩年嗎?還是怎麼樣?還是說前面那個做一年後面那個就不能做超過一年"},{"start":4572.288,"end":4586.781,"text":"這才公平啊!所以輪流的概念要達到公平的法律上所要求的均勻、對等的照顧是不容易做到的所以我建議合法大家思考一下因為原住民主委員會目前主委一人"},{"start":4587.722,"end":4606.52,"text":"政務副主委2人常務副主委1人總共是4位都是在檢任時事職等或筆到檢任時事職等或特任的這樣的一個高階的官員若以4位來講若真的要求到均等那或許同一時間與同一時間有4位的話"},{"start":4607.341,"end":4632.342,"text":"那各兩位這樣的法律的一個規範的條文是比較容易落實的我這裡只是以政委員跟翁委員的思維若要均勻的對待山園跟平原不同的族群的都是原住民的朋友或許不是用輪流這樣的不確定的法律概念因為這樣的輪流這樣的概念你要怎麼樣在時間上達到一個公平對待的方式不容易"},{"start":4633.163,"end":4635.605,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議"},{"start":4654.17,"end":4663.207,"text":"行政院長在提名的時候如果有這樣的明確的規定那麼這或許也不妨是一個可以落實的法律規範我強調再強烈一次我覺得"},{"start":4667.472,"end":4687.457,"text":"有兩個應該公平對待的族群應該在制度上被合理的照顧這個我覺得是可支持的但是要怎麼在制度上設計到它可操作而且會達到可公平的效果應該要去慎重考慮所以我這裡請我們原提案人可以思考一下真的要做到公平、可操作"},{"start":4688.317,"end":4690.799,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議"},{"start":4706.388,"end":4720.786,"text":"馬哈迪他的後來他們就有跟另外希望聯盟他們就講好了有人後面兩年輪流擔任但是內閣制的國家任期沒有一個固定的保障所以到底做多久是做完一半"},{"start":4721.772,"end":4740.843,"text":"就很難判斷啊前面一半跟後面一半到底誰先誰後就造成了一個毀棄承諾的問題所以這是提醒兩位提案委員可以思考一下我講的不是原則的問題我講的是如何去落實法律條文的設計可以貫徹你要求的一個平等對待的精神以上說明好 謝謝 那個國民黨這邊有沒有要表示什麼意見或民眾黨這邊有沒有要表示意見或五黨這邊"},{"start":4754.195,"end":4780.585,"text":"高金素梅第一次發言我還記得第一次我們做提案說明的時候或者在這個地方我們有討論過我針對第三條的部分我是尊重也同意鄭天財委員的說法但是第四條剛剛聽到吳委員在這邊這麼樣哽咽的說話其實我都覺得我們自己身為是原住民族的族人"},{"start":4781.445,"end":4801.906,"text":"我們也感到替他難過為什麼因為他講得很激動但是事實上我們都是從部落裡面來的我們也都清楚知道這些族群代表他代表的是誰在部落參加什麼事情我先請大家看一下"},{"start":4803.527,"end":4827.753,"text":"這個原住民族委員會的這個所謂的委員權責他聘用19到29個人那我們都知道有16個族群是有幾隻有給薪資的他的薪資大概一個月8萬多塊錢如果再加上交通費再加上一些他的出差費大概有10萬以上"},{"start":4829.073,"end":4856.193,"text":"我們想想這個10萬以上比部落的文建站要大學畢業的孩子要照顧我們的部落的族人他的工作簡直輕鬆很多啦我們都知道我們到婚喪喜慶裡面看到的都是族群委員在那邊講話那至於講什麼話部落裡面也都有錄影回來那我本來不覺得這件事情非常嚴重自從上一次黃國昌委員他其實非常認真"},{"start":4858.074,"end":4879.522,"text":"雖然這個原民會沒有提供給他完整的資料但是我在這一次請原民會給我提供的資料裡面我先讓大家知道雖然大家不管是莊瑞雄委員也好或吳立華委員也好拿出就是只要哪一個政黨他執政了以後"},{"start":4880.342,"end":4881.322,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案"},{"start":4902.508,"end":4911.414,"text":"審查名單只有一位,然後是誰推薦的,也是吳立華委員推薦的。賽德克組有三位審查名單,然後一位當選,誰推薦的,吳立華委員推薦的。"},{"start":4923.973,"end":4952.391,"text":"布農族有三位審查的名單推薦的人是誰?只有一位當選是吳立華委員推薦的周族有一位審查名單也是吳立華委員的特助吳立華推薦的卡諾卡納夫有五位審查名單他是自建的有一個自建的當選拉哈拉沃族有兩位審查名單"},{"start":4953.632,"end":4974.489,"text":"一位當選無力化委員的推薦少族有兩位審查名單然後呢一位當選成癮委員推薦的然後卑南族呢有七位審查名單他是民族議會推薦的塞夏族有三位審查名單"},{"start":4976.141,"end":4978.383,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案"},{"start":4990.435,"end":4990.875,"text":"吳立華吳立華吳立華吳立華吳立華"},{"start":5015.685,"end":5037.755,"text":"有五位審查名單他以前的身份是成營服務處的處長是成營推薦的台灣族有兩位審查的名單他的曾經的身份是吳麗華競選副總幹事然後也是吳麗華委員推薦的撒基拉雅族有兩位"},{"start":5038.275,"end":5041.841,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議"},{"start":5054.018,"end":5079.315,"text":"現在這個被推薦的這些名單拿上來給我你知道嗎在內政委員會裡面質詢的時候我們主委沒有參加這樣子的一個推薦這個審查然後呢他居然不知道是誰但是在我們的整個審查過程當中主委本來就是要在會議當中所以呢"},{"start":5080.435,"end":5097.124,"text":"這個不是我自編出來的喔這全部從這個你們待會可以回去看一下那就是哪一位委員推薦的然後當選他相關的職務都在上面這是助理整理出來的然後我們來看一下這些人他應該要做些什麼事情那事實上呢19到29位有16位是"},{"start":5100.606,"end":5102.727,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":5130.766,"end":5150.501,"text":"佈落就形成一個很大的衝突了為什麼是他不是我為什麼是他不是我然後最後大家就說是不是我們以後這個族群委員既然他要做佈落的事務他要跟佈落很相近而且他要推廣所有的文化我們是不是以佈落的"},{"start":5151.101,"end":5153.244,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案"},{"start":5169.805,"end":5183.645,"text":"對一個部落裡面來的年輕的相對的剝奪感其實是蠻重的那他要做什麼事情呢第一他要出席本會委員的會議然後對委員會議他要提出本會相關的議案"},{"start":5184.687,"end":5187.868,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案。 本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案。"},{"start":5210.932,"end":5225.047,"text":"委員會議要重要的議案要先期審查例如我們可能要審這個土海法原民會還沒有送出來他們可能就要委員請問一下古仲副主委"},{"start":5226.228,"end":5253.901,"text":"現在這些族群委員有參與這樣重要的會議嗎?就我了解這些跟法案有關係的都是這些無幾值沒有領薪水的專家、學者在參加族群委員幾乎是沒有參加的就我了解了再來第二個他要做什麼事情?原住民族的政策、制度、計劃還有方案的先期審查"},{"start":5255.282,"end":5271.07,"text":"有嗎?第三個,原住民族相關法規的先期審查。第四個,相關機關原住民族事務之先期協調還有聯繫。第五個,主持或出席專案小組的會議。"},{"start":5272.611,"end":5298.271,"text":"第六個,要主持或參與與族群相關的會議、調查、研究跟協調。第七個,參加族群遂時祭儀、民俗、文化以及傳統祭儀展演、慶典或活動。第八個,其他交代的事項。我們來看一下,我現在手上也整理了一下,沒有全部整理,大概整理了一下。"},{"start":5300.092,"end":5327.027,"text":"呃 聘用委員叫誰我就不講了齁他參加公祭6個小時然後某個委員出差公祭12個小時某個委員參加公祭8個小時某個委員參加結婚歸零的典禮8個小時某個委員參加撿月香的公祭8個小時某個委員參加結婚典禮8個小時"},{"start":5330.27,"end":5351.139,"text":"某個委員參加某個老夫人的公祭8個小時這我才只是整理了一點點所以我們會看到就是說這些族群委員每個月擬將近10萬塊的薪水然後他還有退職金然後呢他做的事情他的權責"},{"start":5353.103,"end":5381.387,"text":"我在整理的上面我並沒有看到他參加重要議案的先期審查或者是原住民族政策制度計畫的方案的先期審查還有相關法規的先期審查至少原民會現在沒有提供給我說他們有參加這樣子的會議然後最重要的是他們上下班不用打卡然後他們只要填他們去哪裡參加婚宴就可以去當然我知道"},{"start":5381.927,"end":5395.503,"text":"原住民的選區非常的大,如果我要到一個部落去參加一個人的婚喪喜慶的確要花很長的時間,但是那不應該是我們族群委員該做的事情吧?"},{"start":5396.744,"end":5412.111,"text":"委員要做的事情既然你講是跟文化跟族群跟部落裡面的連結那麼重要的話為什麼園民會我們現在在推自治法、屠海法的時候推了這麼久你們都還說部落都還有意見呢?"},{"start":5413.666,"end":5428.508,"text":"如果我們這些族群委員都不把屠海法、自治法跟部落裡面的人討論清楚然後每一次去的時候還要原民會員親自去召開會議那我們要族群委員幹什麼呢?"},{"start":5429.509,"end":5443.323,"text":"族群委員最重要的是他對部落的事物第一要很熟悉第二他對他的文化要很了解第三他要被這個族群給認同所以基本上應該族群委員"},{"start":5445.004,"end":5446.365,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":5467.879,"end":5485.36,"text":"在部落裡面的貢獻你還記得原民會113年我就讓你們要要把那個你們領選的辦法要修正嘛你們到現在一直都沒有修正啊所以這也是為什麼我這次提出來說既然我們的族群委員"},{"start":5486.041,"end":5510.175,"text":"造成部落上相對年輕人被剝奪感那麼嚴重而且造成部落裡面內部的紛爭的話你為什麼不要把遴選制度再做得更好一點呢請問一下遴選制度我113年講講到現在你們改了沒有沒有反而更可怕更可怕的是你們給我的這一堆名單裡面"},{"start":5511.937,"end":5522.479,"text":"難怪部落裡面的人紛紛一直在投訴不只投訴我這邊還投訴到不是原住民委員的辦公室所以黃國昌委員會拿到那麼多的資料"},{"start":5523.999,"end":5547.058,"text":"所以我在講今天不是說我們在對個別的委員做一些攻擊我們是就事論事所以以上我希望大家能夠聽到我如果今天園民會你有意要表達你覺得我講的是正確的你們要來修改你們這些遴選制度辦法其實我們也想聽聽看啊"},{"start":5548.539,"end":5566.312,"text":"他是不是他就跟專家學者一樣呢他是榮譽職的呢他有來參加會議我們就給他交通費呢這樣子是不是相對的這個剝奪感會少一點呢是不是113年到現在你們沒有修改啊園民會裡面也是失職啊然後"},{"start":5567.353,"end":5592.083,"text":"原民會主委甚至於就在那個備詢台上很清楚講說只有一張紙在他桌上你回去調資料你回去調資料這個原民會主委在內政委員會裡面的說法你都可以去調資料當時我聽了黃國燙聽了我們都嚇了一大跳只有一張紙在你桌上嗎"},{"start":5593.323,"end":5617.468,"text":"那你整個擬聘的過程你都沒有參加啊他啞口無言啊所以上一次不是您來啊古仲上一次是中副主委啊那到底這個工作是中副主委還是您在您在到底你們兩個是分派這個業務好不好謝謝你你你也可以記待會可以回答一下謝謝謝謝那楊委員好我鄭天才"},{"start":5631.388,"end":5638.63,"text":"我要特別說明族群委員的制度不是103年民國85年行政院原住民委員會"},{"start":5654.72,"end":5675.015,"text":"當初的法例的提案當初行政院的版本它是用組織規程所以也沒有什麼族群委員是民國85年之前我們的前輩蔡中涵立委的提案"},{"start":5677.711,"end":5706.129,"text":"原民會的以前叫組織條例組織條例的提案就是列了族群委員然後103年是做什麼呢是因為所有的組織條例都要改為組織法所以我們提了條文我們才會提條文我們主要的是原民會當初是四個處"},{"start":5707.813,"end":5714.676,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案。」案。 本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":5731.879,"end":5758.92,"text":"維持局的位局的地位但是沒辦法因為那時候已經限收在70個裡面當初的目的是這樣所以不是103年才開始的所以這個部分是民國85年我們的前輩這幾年呢看了我們的族群委員的在部落"},{"start":5760.151,"end":5786.578,"text":"在延民會我們的前輩也常常去延民會他對我們的族群委員跟以前真的是差之千里他也非常搖頭加上剛才高金委員所陳述的各族群的意見各部落的意見我也接到很多這樣的意見"},{"start":5788.211,"end":5813.596,"text":"所以我上次在司法法制委員會審查的時候你們兩位沒有來了我那時候也說了我們要把它有幾值要變成無幾值我們也是很難過的但是不得不還不如把這些多少的錢一個月八萬多塊"},{"start":5817.759,"end":5843.394,"text":"整個族群委員的整個預算編列一年要一千多萬一千多萬的經費而原民會的職員的人數當初103年的時候我跟高金委員當初提了附帶結議最少要195人"},{"start":5846.718,"end":5852.903,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議案。蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":5873.922,"end":5898.941,"text":"一百一十四年度的預算已經加上這些基金單位預算還有文件站的經費一百四十五億多了所以我的建議就是把這些族群委員全部的經費改列為可以增加十六家乘以二最起碼三十幾個職員"},{"start":5902.134,"end":5917.462,"text":"現在人民會的職員非常的辛苦增加了這麼多的經費然後人力都沒有增加還維持在我們103年的時候所定的最低的額度當初希望能夠達到280人"},{"start":5923.71,"end":5952.232,"text":"所以這個部分從104年一直到現在預算成長這麼多但是人員職員那麼少危在的質詢人事行政總署就是沒有辦法增加所以我們就是希望族群委員既然已經沒有展現出當初立法的目的我們的前輩當初立法的目的因為"},{"start":5953.447,"end":5956.188,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案。 本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案。"},{"start":5973.02,"end":5994.189,"text":"這是唯一8年沒有送來的其他的陳水扁總統馬英九總統都有送來啊所以連出委員會的都沒有啊連出委員會提案都沒有提啊這個組織委員就是要有這個責任顯然已經失去了"},{"start":5996.47,"end":6022.159,"text":"我們的鄉親說他怎麼代表竹委去參加婚喪喜慶竹群會員的工作是這些嗎真的是我們一般的鄉親就覺得很納悶所以這部分已經失去了所以這部分我們才會很忍痛的來提案所以這部分是有這樣的一個問題另外三眼跟平眼"},{"start":6023.61,"end":6052.18,"text":"因為已經實施這麼多年你要把它不分了難啊已經很難了無論你已經有經歷過上次你提地方制度法要把它不分結果遇到很多的難處很多的問題問題很多會影響很多所以我還是建議大家能夠支持這個本席還有高金素梅委員的提案以上"},{"start":6057.496,"end":6078.715,"text":"呃因為剛剛那個吳委員先舉手那可能麻煩讓吳委員先好那委員王在好謝謝因為我先及早澄清對下面的對話比較容易齁好呃我剛剛聽完之後呃我旁邊的委員也聽不下去就離開啊因為他們說留給原住民委員自己講話很難看"},{"start":6085.154,"end":6089.237,"text":"在這邊的對談竟然是曝露我一直很納悶為什麼要修不是只有我納悶很多人都納悶為什麼要修結果曝露了原來還是一己之私啊我來說明一下今天我前面聽到那一些話我覺得很不好意思"},{"start":6112.52,"end":6128.283,"text":"我還是要再重申來 我就講 我就講黃國昌上次也給我造謠那個刊版的我再說明一次齁我們作為一個行政團隊大家都是立法委員我們都有推薦的資格但是我一個一個講第一個啦啦族"},{"start":6142.113,"end":6144.456,"text":"我也要來問原民會是怎麼給資料的拉拉族是謝垂耀那個拉拉族的領袖他們開會把名單報給我我轉給你們怎麼就變成是我推薦"},{"start":6168.183,"end":6172.385,"text":"上次爆發那個記者會我去問區長怎麼回事丟臉385個人的族群我真的要講嗎第一個有前科第二個有前科第三個有瑕疵最後一個說搞了老半天他家裡有事不能來報到這樣也累到我頭上"},{"start":6200.265,"end":6209.089,"text":"泰魯格族高維寧那個人是他們經過開會有他們的大佬有前任的委員基羅穆斯他們推舉出來的布農族的委員也是透過地方的議員他們推薦出來的"},{"start":6230.029,"end":6236.351,"text":"更醜的是鄒族的委員是汪章良縣長親自寫推薦函的最後每個都變成是我我們拿出去給你們你們還要篩選啊你們有審查會怎麼會給的資料是我呢鄒司會是平他們這個是平原的平均議會他也都設在你身上"},{"start":6258.956,"end":6261.44,"text":"等一下 主席 怎麼一回事"},{"start":6263.878,"end":6288.836,"text":"我想知道什麼一回事各位報告因為高金文有跟我們調相關的資料那我們提供給高金文這些資料部落自己也可以給啦為什麼一定要透過某委員才能夠給呢如果按照他這麼講的話你們以前沒有推薦過嗎你們沒有推薦過吧我們一定要在這邊讓人看笑話嗎為什麼通通都是你們呢"},{"start":6291.857,"end":6312.993,"text":"如果部落真的有推薦人的話部落不會自己給原民會嗎一定要透過某個委員嗎憲法都有保障我們的主管我們的院長有任命權我們一定要管到這麼細嗎你們不就是有一個審查委員會嗎不就應該要把關嗎先不要生氣吳委員我們先釐清一下趙委員請他說明一下"},{"start":6313.453,"end":6315.334,"text":"主席我強烈要求請邀請這些族群委員"},{"start":6342.013,"end":6364.5,"text":"來這個地方說明我都覺得應該他們願意那族群委員到底做什麼事我們怎麼知道呢天哪來你現在告訴我是哪一位哪一位啊哪一位啊部落說哪一位"},{"start":6367.008,"end":6375.952,"text":"阿是哪一位阿你不能這樣子阿隨便誣衊掉他們的人格搞不好他們很認真阿去翻資料好不好先還一下那個副主委有沒有辦法解釋"},{"start":6383.275,"end":6407.27,"text":"跟各位委員報告有關拼右委員的這個我們臨選的這個大概方式呢就是比較多元有一些是透過民主議會那有一些是各界來推薦那沒有沒有沒有委員沒有我們還有幾個都是部落會議民主議會推薦的剛剛你剛剛委員你念到又念到濱南組織是民主議會通過"},{"start":6408.968,"end":6411.369,"text":"我認為既然有審查的委員制都沒有這一些疑慮了"},{"start":6440.27,"end":6449.568,"text":"那要審查委員幹什麼每天在那邊毀線亂證亂七八糟對啦這些都不是高金委員想要所以他生氣啊"},{"start":6453.615,"end":6464.625,"text":"本院委員黃仁等26人及委員高金素梅等26人分別擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議案。 〈一〉本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案。 〈一〉"},{"start":6476.876,"end":6493.481,"text":"部落房檢災會議出席的就有七位委員另外按照我們的人體研究計畫取得原住民族同意的會議在要點裡面有規範就是由各組的族群委參與這個會議然後由他們來決定同不同意管理原住民人體研究計畫的通過"},{"start":6494.821,"end":6496.982,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":6523.275,"end":6546.435,"text":"主委指示辦理的事項主委指示辦理的事項主委指示辦理的事項主委指示辦理的事項主委指示辦理的事項"},{"start":6548.93,"end":6571.723,"text":"謝謝主席對於原住民這邊的話我們是總召已經發言我們是想說不用發言但是呢剛才吳委員點名到我們所以我想說回應你一下所以我們是要修這個法就要促進族群公平的代表希望就是防止"},{"start":6572.583,"end":6596.554,"text":"政治決定就是某一些族群所以保障山地還有平地的原住民的平等權益所以使得我們族委產生過程就是要代表性還有讓我們的原住民山地也好、原地也好就代表族群的發言還有就是權利但是呢剛才你也只有有講"},{"start":6599.451,"end":6626.975,"text":"立由有是沒錯我們講的立由有是因為看到剛才我們高金委員就是講推薦的都是你的名字我們收到的我們收到的資料推薦的都是你的名字所以我們就覺得說我們如果一個市長一個市長一個總統一個行政院長是不是可以用自己的人可以嗎"},{"start":6628.581,"end":6641.313,"text":"就像行政院是不是所有的部會是不是民進黨的人啊我們對我我問你等一下再回答好不好所以呢我當然問啊因為我不瞭解說我們當市長"},{"start":6643.581,"end":6658.305,"text":"我當立法委員我問的就是拿麥克風的人尊重好嗎我講話你尊重好嗎我當立法委員我跟你平起平坐我憑我的本事不是你給的所以呢我現在要聽我講講完就換你講我在講的時候你不要插嘴這個是禮貌連禮貌都不知道"},{"start":6665.547,"end":6667.649,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議"},{"start":6685.499,"end":6704.376,"text":"對,你比例說這個是因為他市長他推薦的人在他的市府裡面很多都是民眾黨的他有權力他覺得這個能力有是我能用的人我就推薦嘛對不對,行政院也是一樣嘛我能用的人我就去推薦嘛今天還有人講說我們"},{"start":6706.678,"end":6708.38,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":6723.713,"end":6751.845,"text":"不同的部落的人不同族群的人當委員我們是認同的我們是覺得很好但是你這樣比例但是我又看到所有都是你的推薦所以我才覺得說你這樣子的比例的話我就覺得說你澄清你不能說市長本來就有這個權利嘛行政院長就有這個權利嘛當然是用自己的黨優先選擇嘛所以說我們希望所以希望的是我們所有的委"},{"start":6752.845,"end":6768.506,"text":"委員現在我們客家委員的委員會的委員也沒有幾職的嘛所以我們現在從頭到尾我們聽的是我們不否認一直以來我們族群委員有薪水但是他的工作"},{"start":6769.227,"end":6783.412,"text":"要到位,這樣子對我們的族群比較有幫助,對他的職責也有貢獻。我覺得我聽起來是希望的是這樣,你們也希望這樣子嘛,對不對?他們也希望這樣子,所以不要說用了。"},{"start":6785.273,"end":6787.115,"text":"沒有選擇就像現在我們新住民的委員會還有我們移民署的委員會所有的推薦各個單位透過民間團體各個委員去推薦我們內政部長要去一一的去甄選去選擇"},{"start":6806.513,"end":6831.804,"text":"不是每個人推薦都有喔所以我們希望的是說大家就是要用的人每一個部落都有人才希望說這個委員會這些人他是貢獻有這個能力的我們希望的是這樣所以我聽起來是這樣我們希望說你不用拿這個比例來去用這樣的話我覺得是有落差啦所以不是說因為我看到"},{"start":6832.384,"end":6842.829,"text":"別人你剛才講的是他們提供的資料有誤差有可能但是我們看到的是這樣啊看到給我們的就是這樣的名單嘛所以我們覺得是說你又比例說這樣所以我覺得說應該你是市長了所以你推薦都上所以你覺得能用的都是你推薦的所以我覺得你比例就等於說你當市長這樣子的推薦的權利了嘛"},{"start":6857.897,"end":6862.401,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案：擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案：擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案：擬具"},{"start":6879.115,"end":6879.856,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":6895.83,"end":6912.24,"text":"委員但是都是無己職其實是沒有必要要聘成是專任專任職那麼我們這邊當然也肯定就是族群委員那麼他們代表各族群也可能也對於這個各族群也"},{"start":6912.64,"end":6913.761,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6936.307,"end":6937.188,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具"},{"start":6960.45,"end":6974.623,"text":"有這個必要性。那麼再說就是以現階段我們看到整個族群委員他臨聘制度上確實也出了很大的問題不論是從推薦的程序資格的審查專業能力還有"},{"start":6976.451,"end":6998.645,"text":"在種種方面以及它的這個代表性其實都沒有一個適當的規範這個規範就是太寬鬆太粗糙可能只是需要具備原住民的身份然後有一些什麼所謂的專門智能條件熱心公益有生育卓著這樣子就可以來擔任原住民委員會的委員代表"},{"start":7000.526,"end":7020.897,"text":"那麼我認為說從現階段來看他確實領選制度上面不盡合理再加上我們如果再跟其他的委員會相比較來說確實是沒有必要用有幾職聘任的方式來領選這批委員所以我建議就是說在整個行政機關的各個機關的標準應該是一致的"},{"start":7022.458,"end":7030.472,"text":"既然客家委員會的這裡的委員都是採無己職所以原住民委員會的這個族群委員其實也應該要採無己職是合理的謝謝那陳英委員是"},{"start":7042.695,"end":7059.203,"text":"有關於第三條的部分我就簡單補充啦就是有關於這個主任委員那山園跟平原輪流擔任的部分那我就提出一些疑慮因為我想很多來參與協商的委員還有立法院很多的"},{"start":7060.023,"end":7064.146,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議案。蘋果委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議案。"},{"start":7075.613,"end":7077.315,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案"},{"start":7095.534,"end":7109.729,"text":"裡面其實都有就是大致上是可能是平原或山原但是其中有少數像泰雅族也是一樣大部分是山原但是他們在南庄的泰雅族卻是平地原住民所以今天"},{"start":7110.81,"end":7137.032,"text":"我覺得其實我蠻尊敬佩服鄭天財委員是因為在我們所有原住民的立委當中他是法學素養最深厚的一位那每一次他的這個他的論述還有他的修法一定有他的這個深層的意義未必是大家從這個文字上看得出來所以我第一個要提醒就是這個山園跟平原"},{"start":7137.833,"end":7163.922,"text":"如果今天我們按照這個修法成功這個版本修法成功之後那麼未來呢那如果說好現在曾志勇委員做完了下次我們就是換了這個這個台東的這個平地原住民但是是排灣族的然後之後做完之後又輪回去山原又是排灣族然後再回來然後又是排灣族又是平原"},{"start":7164.542,"end":7186.089,"text":"我們這樣也是合乎我們法規的這些修法的這個要求嘛 對不對但是可能大家就會覺得說這個族群上是不是可以平衡一下所以我覺得就是這樣子的修法它還是有問題嘛因為要回歸擔任原民會的主任委員其實跟各部會首長一樣最重要的是什麼"},{"start":7187.506,"end":7187.926,"text":"本院委員長"},{"start":7212.435,"end":7217.139,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人分別擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議案。蘇貞昌委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議"},{"start":7241.995,"end":7267.145,"text":"看到黃國昌委員這麼溫柔這麼心平氣和的講話然後我也很感動因為他說他自己不是原住民他就覺得他要多聆聽那我希望他再多聆聽可是可惜他走了啦我也希望說他能夠再聽到我講這段話那我希望呢他在多聆聽的同時也不要偏聽那因為"},{"start":7269.183,"end":7290.284,"text":"因為他講完對講完就走了平常喔有時候我在議場我也想走過去跟他聊兩句好一些因為最近我們也討論禁法補償嘛還有很多原住民的議題但是因為曾經我親眼目睹我們有女同事走去前面也是很客氣跟他講幾句話忽然他就咆哮起來了"},{"start":7291.986,"end":7309.089,"text":"所以我就很怕說我也是想去跟他溝通幾句但是我又很怕他一咆哮起來口水也是會亂噴所以他今天講我就斗膽在這裡就是也回應一下洪國昌委員在"},{"start":7309.85,"end":7336.693,"text":"指詢的時候提到的就是祖學委員的名單一片綠油油這件事情甚至呢在他的powerpoint上面還點名寫上了我的名字說某人是我的服務處的這個處長之類的那我想我今天也藉著這個機會我們就這個問題來好好討論一下首先呢我要講一下"},{"start":7338.414,"end":7361.196,"text":"剛剛跟原民會我第一次看到這個資料就是就這一份啦就是各組啊然後他的那個族群委員候選人吧然後有多少的他的經歷然後推薦人是誰我要跟原民會講你們這份資料其實真的是不精確還真是不精確"},{"start":7362.657,"end":7388.414,"text":"因為我剛剛看到一個很好笑的事情我覺得吳麗華委員你也真倒楣喔賽夏族賽夏族這個他們有民族議會這幾個候選人有民族議會推薦還有之前的這個朱薰委員推薦然後但是我看那個這次聘用的是平地原住民嘛"},{"start":7390.1,"end":7418.157,"text":"然後裡面也有當然提到我推薦的啦當然我就是說這裡面其中一兩個我有推薦沒錯但是呢這個有一些大家可能到處拜託啊那個名單到處飛可能我不知道有沒有去哪個委員那邊可能也去了伍麗華那邊可能也來了我這邊但是我們接到陳情禮貌上一定都就是還要送出去嘛"},{"start":7418.897,"end":7427.552,"text":"好,這個是人之常情啊,但是我想,就是我就剛剛看到那個我就覺得很好,像是吳立法你真倒楣啊,就全部都摔在你頭上齁。"},{"start":7429.079,"end":7457.977,"text":"然後再來我要講一下這個其實能力的問題以前我還真是不知道啦因為以前長期這個國民黨執政的年代呢我那天我先講我自己好了因為我被黃國昌委員點名那麼他點出說有其中有一位擔任過我服務處的處長那我想"},{"start":7459.017,"end":7486.914,"text":"黃國昌委員的這個質詢內容也印證了一件事他不是原住民他真的還不了解這其中的一些細節我要講的是第一個這個那一位被他點名的族群委員呢是族委跟我借將那還真是因為他的經歷是怎麼樣我想一個大家去仔細聽好不好講一下一個族群委員"},{"start":7489.113,"end":7510.039,"text":"他擔任過他在原民會待過三年在縣政府待過九年他也擔任過地方各級民意代表一直到中央從地方議員乃至於審議員還有立法委員的助理"},{"start":7510.919,"end":7530.705,"text":"我想所有的這個主委需要幫忙他當主委那借用借用這一位族群委員的精力我想這個是人之常情因為人才我也是很捨不得但是主委要借降那我就借給他嘛好那再來"},{"start":7532.503,"end":7557.327,"text":"再來就是說我想這些經歷應該是黃國昌委員他沒有好好去掌握的所以他才會講出什麼仇庸啊什麼綠油油啊然後到底到底這個綠油油我倒是要看一下那個我們看一下那個馬英九執政的那個年代好了"},{"start":7558.956,"end":7587.312,"text":"不好意思不好意思那個不好意思陳議員那個因為齁現在有一個比較麻煩的事情就是因為麥委員他說他要離開不是啊我要不是你們這樣打斷我他要離開是他的是今天已經排欸不是你先聽我講完嘛你先聽我講完齁我不是說質疑你不能講我是說因為我們今天是協調嘛齁那因為麥委員離開變成是三黨變成少一個那依照"},{"start":7588.172,"end":7607.404,"text":"先以前的因為依照這個協商因為依照協商之前只要三黨有一個不出席的話那變成是這個協商會議就是不成立了不是那不然這樣好不好你就讓我讓我講完那麻煩你當就是多做幾分鐘我就講因為我要講重點就被打斷了"},{"start":7610.226,"end":7635.658,"text":"我只是跟你提醒一下有這個狀況因為他們如果一離開少一個黨變成是我們今天就不成立了我只是要提醒這件事並不是要不讓你講主席決定我還是把我的意見講完稍微等一下我們讓陳瑜委員說完謝謝麥委員剛剛吳立華委員有秀出這一張我想我直接把它打在PowerPoint上比較清楚"},{"start":7636.718,"end":7656.459,"text":"那我要這個當然這個一秀出來就藍滋滋嘛那剛剛還有秀的是那個新竹市那邊的嘛啊那個叫什麼白滄滄啊對不對都是一樣都是一樣啊都是一樣啊"},{"start":7661.363,"end":7673.056,"text":"不是 你們不要插嘴嘛這樣人家有禮貌你自己卻沒禮貌很奇怪啊你刮別人鬍子之前你先把自己的鬍子刮乾淨麻煩你閉嘴好"},{"start":7675.501,"end":7679.564,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議"},{"start":7697.045,"end":7715.79,"text":"哎呀 你們就叫黃國昌委員講嘛對啦 因為 因為齁 我覺得 你要講 你要講 你要講就自己講女生講話 男生擔擔你要講就自己講 不用 不用在這裡好像躲在後面 然後叫別人出頭"},{"start":7718.39,"end":7720.152,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":7736.992,"end":7740.053,"text":"鄭天財委員的助理一樣擔任過鄭天財委員助理又不是人家穿著你的背心難怪難道他是他是冒牌的嗎"},{"start":7764.793,"end":7766.794,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議"},{"start":7795.214,"end":7799.379,"text":"我對他一點意見都沒有你們全部過去那麼多人"},{"start":7801.906,"end":7817.417,"text":"那麼多人擔任到底是誰推薦的也有口文及委員的那本來就就事論事你們可以點名為什麼我們就不能點名很奇怪耶不是我們現在已經離題了哪有什麼離題就在這邊講啦這兩條有沒有共識是誰先帶頭離題的誰先離題的沒有共識的話就送院長誰先離題的沒有共識"},{"start":7827.845,"end":7830.047,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人分別擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議"},{"start":7850.703,"end":7857.228,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條條文修正草案．審查委員會組織法第三條條文修正草案．審查委員會組織法第三條條文修正草案．審查委員會組織法第三條條文"},{"start":7873.541,"end":7877.362,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議"},{"start":7897.79,"end":7900.832,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．提案。」本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．提案。」"},{"start":7926.125,"end":7930.81,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議案。」"},{"start":7941.502,"end":7955.844,"text":"歐委員不一定啦,我們就按照程序啦,那看主委你看怎麼樣?中委員你要擇期的話也必須其他兩黨都同意嘛,那現在就是中委員有這樣的提案,不知道民眾黨跟國民黨這邊是否同意?"},{"start":7957.812,"end":7986.553,"text":"中委員他們不同意,因為要他們兩邊同意,那就看大家的意思。我再補充一件事,不好意思,重要資訊,潘真祥前代表他是您的支持者,我也曾經推薦過他,我們都有這種大度,在民進黨執政的時代,我推薦他,但是他拒絕,因為他說民進黨執政他不要做。"},{"start":7988.252,"end":8015.403,"text":"是這樣子的 有這種事你可以去問他啊這個跟條文沒有直接關係啦不是啊 但是他們提這個法案的時候他們提這個法案的時候那就看照片嘛 大家看那個名單跟照片嘛那名單跟照片就知道嘛不是 我剛講那個是很中性的啦我知道所謂的擇旗也沒有所謂的"},{"start":8016.523,"end":8043.952,"text":"我講一下所謂的擇期沒有誰同不同意的問題啦就是送給院長院長有可能交付你再重新再協商嘛那不一定啊那這樣齁中委員那這樣我們是不是說大家因為今天的討論是沒有共識嘛那大家也都我們都沒有自指誰讓大家充分表達也已經兩個多小時了那是不是說因為各黨團的意見是不一致的啦那我們就到我們這邊一直插謊"},{"start":8046.178,"end":8073.123,"text":"沒有就是到我這邊一直斷掉一直插話很煩那因為我們今天發言的內容都有錄音錄影列入記錄啦那我們還是需要繼續溝通取得共識那是不是說我們就依據立法院執行法第12章的規定辦理好不好對就是讓院長去召開好不好好那就今天這樣不好意思啦因為兩個半小時了大家沒有共識"},{"start":8075.603,"end":8078.752,"text":"對對對好好好那謝謝各位那就散會謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T14:01:19.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:01:23.482000+08:00","text":"各位午安，現在開始協商會議。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T14:01:23.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:02:35.894000+08:00","text":"協商主題為司法及法制、內政兩委員會併案審查委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等 16 人及委員高金素梅等 24 人分別擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條\n文修正草案」等 2 案，審查會於 113 年 10 月 9 日審查完竣，審查結果：第三條保留，第四條照\n案通過，並決議院會討論前須交由黨團協商。","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T14:02:37.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:02:51.943000+08:00","text":"另委員黃仁等 29 人提案及委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw\n等 18 人提案，經 113 年 10 月 25 日第 11 屆第 2 會期第 6 次院會決定：逕付二讀，與相關提案併\n案協商。","quality":0.764},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T14:02:52.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:03:05.630000+08:00","text":"以上共計 4 案，於今日併案進行協商，協商時，請參閱協商條文對照表與審查報告及\n逕付二讀提案關係文書。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T14:03:05.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:03:15.294000+08:00","text":"與會委員如有修正動議或機關有建議內容，請提出書面印發現場進行\n討論。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T14:03:16.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:03:26.299000+08:00","text":"現在先請提案委員說明，黃仁委員沒有來，我們請鄭天財委員進行提案說明。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:03:31.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:03:35.747000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：召委、各黨團代表。","quality":0.35},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:03:36.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:04:02.499000+08:00","text":"有關原民會組織法第三條，我特別提出修正，最主\n要上次討論及說明的時候我也講過一次，今天我再說一次，就是因為山地原住民跟平地原住民\n的劃分已經非常久了，憲法也是這樣明定，雖然大家一直主張山原跟平原不要再分，但是憲法\n畢竟還是這樣子區分。","quality":0.566},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:04:02.499000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:05:09.430000+08:00","text":"原民會從民國 85 年 12 月 10 號成立到現在，如果我們從每一次總統或是\n行政院長對主任委員的任用來看，我是平地原住民，我當然是很持平的來看，所以我還是提出\n這樣的一個修正條文，最主要就是說，基本上原住民地區非常遼闊，然後現在又增加了非常多\n的都會區原住民，所以整個臺、澎、金、馬都有我們原住民。","quality":0.121},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:05:09.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:05:28.447000+08:00","text":"每一任的主任委員，事實上他的\n時間根本沒辦法很全面的去每個地方，然後所了解的也是有限，但長年以來，平地原住民去當\n主任委員的確實是比較多。","quality":0.597},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:05:28.447000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:05:44.183000+08:00","text":"而且在陳水扁總統的任內就有幾位平地原住民，尤其是從他任內最\n後一年到蔡總統任內，等於 9 年，9 年都是平地原住民，所以我才會提出這樣的一個修正，希望\n能夠由山地原住民跟平地原住民輪流擔任。","quality":0.134},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:05:44.183000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:07:20.144000+08:00","text":"另外，我原來提案有關主任委員要經過地方民意同意的部分，當初之所以會提這個部分，最\n主要就是蘇貞昌當院長的時候一直強調要分流自治，因為原住民族自治法在過去的八年多來，\n唯一在任內沒有提出原住民族自治法的總統就是過去這 8 年，未來恐怕也是很難送來啦，所以\n這個部分既然蘇院長有所謂的分流自治，我才會提出這個部分，但因為上次討論的時候大家有\n316\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 94 期 黨團協商紀錄\n不同的意見，所以我就把這個部分再做一個修正動議，然後我也提出另案，另行提案把這個部\n分刪除了，所以目前我新的提案是沒有包含這個部分，就是第三條沒有第二項這個部分。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:07:22.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:07:48.017000+08:00","text":"另外就是族群委員的部分，有關族群委員的部分，我上次也講過，因為現在族群委員的代表\n性，已經沒像過去那樣族群委員能夠代表這個族群、具有族群中相當的地位，基本上就已經沒\n有這樣的一個功能了，所以我才會把它改為無給職。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:07:48.017000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:07:49.155250+08:00","text":"事實上，原民會的人力非常欠缺，這一千\n多萬的族群委員的人事費，一年一千七百多萬的人事費，還不如把它轉移到增加原民會一般職\n員的人事費，然後去增加原民會的人力，更有其需要。","quality":0.053},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:07:49.155250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:07:50.293500+08:00","text":"另外就是增加第七條修正條文，就是修正條文施行日期的規定，如果大家有通過的話，修正\n條文就自公布日來施行。以上。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T14:07:50.293500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:07:51.431750+08:00","text":"另外一位提案委員沒有來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T14:07:51.431750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:07:52.570000+08:00","text":"現在請出席的黨團代表來表示意見，首先請蔡委員。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-06T14:07:52.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:09:35.569000+08:00","text":"我代表民進黨團先發言，針對今天司法跟內政併案審查的原住民族委員會組織\n法第三條及第四條，第三條有講到主委由山地原住民與平地原住民輪流擔任，這個輪流擔任的\n意思就代表山地原住民做完再換平地原住民，當然，首先一開始我是認為一樣是原住民，有必\n要再去區分山地原住民跟平地原住民嗎？","quality":0.787},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-06T14:09:36.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:09:37.090000+08:00","text":"這個是我一開始的想法。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-06T14:09:37.851000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:09:52.066000+08:00","text":"當然原住民有不同的族，不\n同的族之間要保留各族的文化，這個我們是支持的，但是如果要把他們再劃分為山地跟平地，\n是否是有意義的區分？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-06T14:09:52.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:09:58.712000+08:00","text":"這個是我一開始心裡就在想的，不過法律上當然是有去定義山地原住民\n跟平地原住民。","quality":0.694},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-06T14:10:00.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:10:55.737000+08:00","text":"有關主委的任命由山地原住民跟平地原住民輪流擔任這件事情，萬一今天有一個平地原住民\n主委確實做得不錯，然後也受到整個原住民族的認同，覺得這個主委真的做得不錯，但是因為\n整個內閣總辭，內閣總辭後又要重組新內閣，因為主委要輪流擔任，這個大家覺得做得不錯的\n主委就不能再被提名，因為卡到輪流擔任，就一定要換下一個，我剛剛舉山地原住民的話，接\n下來就要換平地原住民來擔任，所以我覺得這樣的輪流擔任反而限礙了責任政治，應該是做得\n不好的下臺，然後再由下一位來擔任主委，所以我覺得這樣的輪流擔任就有違責任政治的精神。","quality":0.591},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-06T14:10:56.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:11:14.846000+08:00","text":"至於副主委的部分，如果同時間幾位副主委，除了有平地原住民，同時也應該要有山地原住\n民，就是副主委一職同時要有兩種不同身分的人，我想就可以兼顧到原住民族擔心平地跟山地\n是否會有照顧不周全的狀況。","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-06T14:11:14.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:11:26.413000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得，第三條規定要由平地跟山地原住民輪流擔任主委，\n這個我覺得沒有必要，而且也不符合責任政治。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-06T14:11:27.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:12:12.098000+08:00","text":"第四條是要把原住民委員會的委員改為無給職，我想原住民族委員會的委員，從過去到現在\n都是有給職，主要是它並不是一個任務性的編組，它等於是一個常制，而且這些委員也確實都\n會在原鄉裡面，然後在地方上他可能要去聽取地方的意見，或是跟原住民互動去整合地方的意\n見，然後再提供給整個原住民族委員會作為推動政策的參考。","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-06T14:12:13.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:12:21.862000+08:00","text":"既然這一些委員是有任務，有常\n態性的任務要由他去做的，所以我們相對應地給他一些支給，這個並無不對。","quality":0.682},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-06T14:12:21.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:12:47.065000+08:00","text":"如果大家現在要\n317\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 94 期 黨團協商紀錄\n把它改成無給職，我覺得每一個政黨都有可能會重新執政，現在是民進黨執政，未來在野黨國\n民黨也有可能重新執政，那國民黨重新執政後，不就又要把它改成有給職，那何必這樣去做呢\n？","quality":0.255},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-06T14:12:47.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:13:05.798000+08:00","text":"因為我們大家都覺得，為什麼會有原住民族委員會，就是過去可能在整個漢人的文化裡面，\n原住民受到了剝削，大家認為臺灣基於尊重原住民文化，所以有這樣一個特定的組織。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-06T14:13:05.798000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:13:10.994000+08:00","text":"我們現\n在既然也覺得可能他們要勤跑基層，第一個，這些委員他們的交通等等，都需要更多的資源挹\n注，所以我們讓這些委員等於有一些支給，讓他有薪水，你現在要把它取消，未來如果換國民\n黨執政又要恢復，這樣不好看嘛，我覺得這個大家可以再思考一下，好不好？","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T14:13:10.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:13:12.435000+08:00","text":"還有沒有哪一位黨團代表要表示意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T14:13:45.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:13:47.181000+08:00","text":"請莊委員。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:13:47.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:13:58.228000+08:00","text":"對不起，其實我都尊重國民黨或者民眾黨，看要不要先發言，那我來講一個比較不一\n樣的看法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:14:00.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:14:15.712000+08:00","text":"原民會組織法第三條的規定本來是「置主任委員一人，特任，由原住民擔任」，本\n來是這樣，那現在要把它區分說是要由山地跟平地原住民輪流擔任。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:14:17.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:14:28.404000+08:00","text":"我一直在想，其實臺灣的\n原住民不是只有山地原住民，也不是只有平地原住民，那現在平埔族你叫他怎麼辦？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:14:30.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:14:38.515000+08:00","text":"總不能說\n你們要尊重我們，卻跟人家說你們平埔族不算，這樣講就不好了吧。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:14:39.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:15:02.125000+08:00","text":"基於對各個民族的尊重，比如像憲法增修條文裡面強調保障原住民族的地位，我們在內政委\n員會討論了多少次，在 111 年做成的憲判字第 17 號判決意旨裡面就強調，平埔族也應該具有相\n同的地位。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:15:03.627000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:15:08.730000+08:00","text":"像鄭委員應該，我沒有記錯的話，是阿美族嘛，你是阿美族的代表，阿美族的驕傲\n，對不對？","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:15:08.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:15:09.110000+08:00","text":"所以我們兩個常常會吵來吵去。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:15:09.110000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:15:16.384000+08:00","text":"我都覺得我是被漢人給偷抱走的，不然，我長得跟\n你一模一樣，我覺得我跟你很像。","quality":0.152},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:15:16.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:15:49.159000+08:00","text":"所以我會覺得再討論這個，除非你就講說，不然你就改成「\n平埔族、山地原住民、平地原住民輪流擔任」，看起來公平，但我又覺得不對，這樣變成在原\n住民裡面刻意去把它做一個分化，這個也沒有必要，我覺得沒有必要啦！","quality":0.621},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:15:49.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:16:00.170000+08:00","text":"我是認為山地原住民有資格來當主委，平地原住民當然也有資格來當，平埔族也有資格來當\n，我這樣認為。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:16:02.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:16:36.968000+08:00","text":"如果真的要這樣細分的話，現在原住民族有 16 族，我可以講說，好啊，那個鄭\n天財表現最優秀，阿美族第一個輪流，第二個我們鄒族，不然布農族，不然排灣、魯凱，每一\n個族都把它細分出來，這個看起來好像意義不大，應該是說只要你是原住民族的話，你有原住\n民的身分就可以來當主委，我覺得這樣會比較好一點。","quality":0.508},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:16:36.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:17:01.780000+08:00","text":"因為畢竟不是只有山地跟平地原住民，\n還有一個平埔族，除非你認為憲法法庭那是亂判的，沒有人敢這樣講，你這樣講就沒道理了，\n那一個判決出來是為了尊重原住民族，所以不要基於自己主觀上的好惡，我覺得這樣也不好。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:17:03.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:17:05.463000+08:00","text":"要請教召委的是，我們是一個一個條文來是不是？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:17:06.023000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:17:06.624000+08:00","text":"還是要全部？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:17:07.525000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:17:08.205000+08:00","text":"是先討論第三條，是不是？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:17:08.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:17:11.268000+08:00","text":"如果只談第三條，我就先講到這個地方。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:17:12.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:17:12.709000+08:00","text":"要一起是嗎？","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:17:16.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:17:16.932000+08:00","text":"那也可以啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:17:20.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:17:34.023000+08:00","text":"如果講到第四條，本來委員的人數是 19 到 29 人，各族代表至少一人，\n依聘用條例聘用，其他的委員全部都是無給職，我們現在的修正條文是連 19 到 29 人這個部分\n318\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 94 期 黨團協商紀錄\n全部都是無給職。","quality":0.639},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:17:35.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:18:01.062000+08:00","text":"每一個族群至少都有一個代表，我覺得這樣的規定正當、合法也合理，原民\n委員本來是有給職，然後也具備各族群的代表性，來的一定有代表性，然後搭配專家學者來肩\n負其專業性，我一直認為這是非常兩全其美的設計。","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:18:01.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:18:23.301000+08:00","text":"就像我們立法院一樣，每一個政黨有區域\n立委代表特定區域裡面選民的心聲，各政黨也會有不分區，同時代表民意也兼具各種專業，很\n多委員也都有他的專業性，黃國昌委員也好，麥委員也好，都有他自己的專業性，也可以容納\n多元的聲音。","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:18:25.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:18:38.399000+08:00","text":"我是覺得我都不想陷入原民跟原民委員之間的競爭，但是我比較持平的看就是，再思考一下\n，把高度再拉高一點思考一下。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:18:39.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:18:49.547000+08:00","text":"倒也不是說每一個政黨輪流執政要改來改去的問題，如果現在\n這個狀況過去也會發生，那過去因為我自己執政或者說有我的人在裡面，我就不講話，現在沒\n有我的人，我就講話，這也不好。","quality":0.579},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:18:49.547000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:18:54.243000+08:00","text":"國營事業我們很常看到的，誰當家誰執政一定會找一個他認\n為比較合適的，基於權責的問題，或者說他自己要基於整個責任政治，你選贏了，你去任命了\n誰，你就要負這樣的一個政治責任。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:18:54.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:19:58.369000+08:00","text":"我去看了這些有給職委員他們的業務，包括原住民族的政策、制度、計畫跟相關法規的先期\n審查，業務量其實是很龐大的，也需要用心，還有委員會會議重要議案的先期審議，甚至於跟\n相關機關就原住民族事務的先期協調、聯繫、主持跟參與族群相關的會議、調查、研究、協調\n，除非我們發現這個委員被推舉出來以後，他全部都沒事幹，不然光一個主持的話，我相信你\n說無給職也好奇怪，也好奇怪！","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:19:58.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:20:43.673000+08:00","text":"所以，我把這些事情看完以後，連主持還有出席專案小組的會\n議，參加族群歲時祭儀、民俗文化及傳統技藝的慶典跟活動，還有辦理主委交辦事項等等這些\n正職的工作，我看一看光是這些工作，立法委員除了還要一個跑選區以外，我相信這些委員其\n實也都肩負很大的責任，所以你說全部要把它變成無給職，真的我也請我們在場的不同政黨的\n委員，大家要再三思。","quality":0.845},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:20:45.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:21:01.002000+08:00","text":"連立法委員，你跟他講說，你們立法委員全部都是無給職，不分區委員一定跳腳，不分區委\n員一定跟你說我很專業，我只是不用選舉而已，我要勞心，我要勞力，我的能力都不輸給你們\n。","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:21:01.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:21:20.480000+08:00","text":"我本身在這 4 屆裡面有 2 屆是區域，接下來 2 屆是不分區，我也不覺得我擔任不分區委員以\n後，我對整個立法院的貢獻、投注的心力就會比較少，所以區域的委員如果主張不分區的委員\n全部都不給薪水，我會跟你說，你回去睡覺吧！","quality":0.791},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:21:20.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:21:23.342000+08:00","text":"你乾脆不要選，如果要沒薪水，大家都來沒薪\n水啊！","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:21:24.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:21:25.864000+08:00","text":"要沒薪水，大家就一樣都沒薪水。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:21:25.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:21:53.766000+08:00","text":"所以我們是基於對整個原住民族的尊重跟重視，讓這\n些委員本來是有給職，後來因為這一些小波折，我會覺得有過的地方去改進，像提名的部分、\n不適合的部分，那一個政黨要挨罵本來就是合理，但是如果就是要使出殺手鐧，全部都變成無\n給職，我看到最後就會有人講乾脆立法委員也全部都無給職算了。","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:21:53.766000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:22:03.283000+08:00","text":"以上我這樣的想法不曉得對\n還是不對，提供給大家來做一個參考。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:22:03.283000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:22:12.800000+08:00","text":"我是覺得沒有人做無給職會做到非常盡心盡力，這是我\n常常在講的沒有期待可能性，也不符合人性。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:22:12.800000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:22:22.317000+08:00","text":"以上幾點淺見請各位委員來做一個參考，謝謝。","quality":0.105},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-06T14:22:22.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:22:22.477000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-06T14:22:23.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:23:21.868000+08:00","text":"在每次黨團協商的時候，我就希望大家之前有做過的論述……我覺得在討\n論條文的時候其實都各自表述過了，那黨團協商基本上就是一個交換意見跟立場的平臺，能夠\n319\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 94 期 黨團協商紀錄\n達成共識是很好，沒有辦法達成共識，那就沒有辦法達成共識，要不然……\n針對有關於原住民族的事務，我們台灣民眾黨黨團會很虛心的去聆聽原住民族朋友的心聲跟\n想法，因為我自己不是原住民，有的時候不要表現得太……就是因為自己不是，所以就虛心一\n點，多聽人家的聲音跟想法，這個是我向來在面對原住民族事務時一貫的立場跟看法。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-06T14:23:24.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:23:40.982000+08:00","text":"針對這件事情的決定，上一次在討論條文的時候，我想某個程度上我的想法跟立場都已經表\n達得非常清楚了，沒有必要在今天利用這個機會全部重新再講一次。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-06T14:23:45.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:24:06.780000+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨黨團有 8 位委\n員，我覺得今天的協商要有共識基本上看起來難度非常的高，趨近於不可能，但是我也不要先\n預設立場，我們 8 位委員會很虛心的聆聽各界的聲音，特別是原住民朋友的想法，然後做出我\n們最終的決定。","quality":0.89},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-06T14:24:11.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:24:27.426000+08:00","text":"剛好也利用協商的這個機會，因為今天處理到第四條，這也是我之前在討論的時候所關心的\n議題，我有比較深的感觸，請原民會的朋友稍微聽一下。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-06T14:24:29.346000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:24:32.127000+08:00","text":"我比較深的感觸是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-06T14:24:32.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:24:54.042000+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨\n黨團不大，只有 8 名委員，這 8 名委員可能在原民會的長官眼中看起來微不足道，所以對於我\n們黨團要求你們提供的東西，你們大概是用最隨便的態度來應付。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-06T14:24:55.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:24:57.345000+08:00","text":"我為什麼這樣講？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-06T14:24:57.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:25:02.790000+08:00","text":"我第一次\n請黨團發文給你們原民會，結果回我兩張新聞稿！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-06T14:25:05.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:25:10.222000+08:00","text":"我如果要拿新聞稿，需要透過黨團發文嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-06T14:25:10.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:25:12.103000+08:00","text":"我不會 google 嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-06T14:25:12.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:25:15.325000+08:00","text":"我不會上原民會的網站嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-06T14:25:15.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:25:41.162000+08:00","text":"為了這個事情，我在內政委員會正式提案，跟你\n們要資料，我上質詢臺的時候跟你們的主委講得很清楚，我跟你們索資，你們發兩張新聞稿給\n我，搞到我要到委員會去提案要資料，讓我覺得很難過，我希望這件事不要再發生了。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-06T14:25:42.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:26:08.291000+08:00","text":"那一天\n主委在備詢臺，應該是在內政委員會被質詢的時候跟我說不會，以後絕對不會再發生了，結果\n我們在討論第四條的時候，跟你們要第四條的相關資料，我也感謝高金委員，他知道我關心這\n個議題，所以發文有副本給我，剛剛我看到高金委員手上有厚厚一疊的資料，我看了覺得很奇\n怪，怎麼你有、我沒有？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-06T14:26:09.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:26:21.715000+08:00","text":"他說有副本給我，我剛剛有去了解，原來是你們只回高金委員，沒有\n回文給我，沒有附件，所以我覺得感慨很深。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-06T14:26:23.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:26:40.002000+08:00","text":"我對原民的朋友在任何議題上面向來是大力支持，不懂的事情，我就虛心的聽、虛心的學習\n，希望在立法院行使職權的時候能夠做出對原民朋友最好的決定。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-06T14:26:41.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:26:52.528000+08:00","text":"但是在原民會的眼中，台灣\n民眾黨可能只是一個小小的黨團，沒有幾席立委，所以是用這樣子的態度在面對我們，讓我的\n感觸非常、非常深。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-06T14:26:56.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:27:09.463000+08:00","text":"但我也不會因此而改變我們本來應該有的初衷，在這件事情的決定上，我\n們會很負責任的聽各界的意見，做出我們最後投票的決斷。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-06T14:27:10.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:27:23.053000+08:00","text":"我只希望原民會的朋友在處理一些\n行政事務的時候，請不要差別待遇得這麼嚴重，請不要差別待遇得這麼嚴重！","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-06T14:27:23.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:27:37.323000+08:00","text":"我今天只是剛好\n在這次協商會議中，看到跟協商有關係的基礎資料竟然差別這麼大，所以才有感而發，至於其\n他更深層的問題，我不會在協商的現場講。","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-06T14:27:37.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:27:40.165000+08:00","text":"那我要提醒主委，下一次他到內政委員會備詢的時\n候，我會過去質詢，謝謝。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:27:40.165000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:27:51.813000+08:00","text":"我要插個話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:27:51.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:27:54.115000+08:00","text":"副主委，真的有黃國昌委員講的這種事嗎？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:27:54.115000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:27:55.115000+08:00","text":"320\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 94 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員","start":"2024-11-06T14:27:54.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:28:11.766000+08:00","text":"我想可能有一點誤會，因為我們提供給高金委員的資料就是高金委員\n所要求的相關資料，我們都有給，那副本給黃委員，一般對副本我們就沒有去做處理，我們都\n會針對正本。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:28:13.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:28:18.630000+08:00","text":"不是，黃國昌委員對你們這樣的指控，不要說他，如果是我，我也受不了！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員","start":"2024-11-06T14:28:18.630000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:28:20.771000+08:00","text":"我們一般都是正本……","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:28:20.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:28:23.112000+08:00","text":"哪有什麼分兩個委員？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:28:23.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:28:32.235000+08:00","text":"你說高金委員跟你要資料，你給他完整的，可是你給我的是兩\n張，這樣我也會跟你拍桌，這個話要先講清楚。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員","start":"2024-11-06T14:28:32.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:28:39.897000+08:00","text":"至於黃委員之前要的資料，因為我不太清楚他是要什麼資料、是不是\n在我們提供的時候這個要的資料不明確……","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:28:39.897000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:28:40.897000+08:00","text":"這要解釋清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:28:40.897000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:28:41.897000+08:00","text":"等一下……","quality":0},{"speaker":"谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員","start":"2024-11-06T14:28:39.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:28:42.238000+08:00","text":"我們在內政委員會已經有向黃委員說明了。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T14:28:49.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:28:51.986000+08:00","text":"因為剛剛伍委員有先舉手，還是說……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:28:51.986000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:28:58.849000+08:00","text":"我知道，我解釋一下，因為現在莊委員也對原民會有一點意見，所以我還原一下。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:28:59.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:29:34.285000+08:00","text":"我還原一下，的確，我們上一次在這邊協商完畢之後，當天黃國昌委員有回到內政\n委員會裡面去質詢了我們的主委，他不是公文給你們，他是直接請原民會主委提供資料給他，\n而我是公文給你們，那主委有在當天的備詢臺上回應黃國昌委員說回去以後要把所有的資料給\n他，這是我看到的，所以我必須要講清楚。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:29:34.925000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:29:43.711000+08:00","text":"請莊委員不要生氣，我另外行文給他，是他給我的\n，只是他把給我的副本再交給黃國昌委員。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:29:43.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:30:15.190000+08:00","text":"但是事實上在內政委員會開會的時候，黃國昌委員\n有質詢曾主委，曾主委嘴巴上已經答應他，關於推薦這些族群委員，包括推薦了幾位、是哪幾\n位推薦的，他甚至還說行政院有推薦，所以他問能不能把這個資料全部提供出來，這是我所聽\n到曾主委完整的回應，為什麼今天黃國昌委員會那麼生氣，就是因為這樣。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:30:15.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:30:16.411000+08:00","text":"以上是我的補充說\n明，謝謝。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員","start":"2024-11-06T14:30:16.411000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:30:19.672000+08:00","text":"我可以做補充嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員","start":"2024-11-06T14:30:19.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:30:41.459000+08:00","text":"我先回應黃委員剛剛提到的新聞稿這個部分，黃委員當時要的資料是\n要我們主委到帛琉擔任特使的行程，但是外交部有給我們建議，因為當時主委還在帛琉，所以\n就建議我們提供擔任特使的新聞稿，這是第一個。","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員","start":"2024-11-06T14:30:48.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:31:05.825000+08:00","text":"另外還有第二個部分，剛剛黃委員說我們只\n給高金委員，沒有給黃委員，主要是因為高金委員行文跟我們要資料的時候，有把黃委員辦公\n室掛在「副本」這裡，但是我們一般處理公文就直接針對正本，所以回應了高金委員，我們給\n高金委員的資料就是高金委員要什麼，我們大概都給了。","quality":0.687},{"speaker":"谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員","start":"2024-11-06T14:31:06.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:31:13.528000+08:00","text":"另外，關於黃委員在內政委員會要求\n主委提供資料，我們都會提供，我們會提供。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T14:31:16.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:31:25.653000+08:00","text":"副主委，再請你們跟黃國昌委員解釋一下，或者是再把資料補齊給他，這樣好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T14:31:25.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:31:26.713000+08:00","text":"你們跟\n321\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 94 期 黨團協商紀錄\n他解釋一下。","quality":0.348},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:31:26.713000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:31:30.084500+08:00","text":"部會有誤解要講清楚，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T14:31:30.084500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:31:33.456000+08:00","text":"不然我聽黃國昌委員這樣講我也嚇一跳。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T14:31:33.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:31:36.518000+08:00","text":"我想他也不是不講理啦，就是你們雙方溝通，不要誤會就好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員","start":"2024-11-06T14:31:36.518000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:31:43.128000+08:00","text":"好，這個部分我們再去跟黃委員辦公室做解釋跟說明，如果有缺漏的\n資料，我們就再補齊。好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T14:31:43.128000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:31:49.738000+08:00","text":"我們下一位請伍委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T14:31:49.738000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:31:56.348000+08:00","text":"伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：謝謝主席，大家午安。","quality":0.067},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T14:31:56.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:32:43.049000+08:00","text":"今天排這個協商，我特別去看了一下原\n民會組織法是什麼時候公布施行，是在十年前、103 年，因此我也特別去看了當時整個立法的過\n程，我看到的就是這個部分今天在場的兩位委員──鄭天財委員、高金委員都有提案版本，甚\n至很多條文都是按照院版、按照委員們的版本這樣子通過的，所以今天、十年之後回到這個地\n方，我也很想了解是什麼原因要去做第三條跟第四條的修法。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T14:32:43.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:32:49.253000+08:00","text":"我就針對第三條、第四條的每一\n個修正重點來提出我的看法。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T14:32:50.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:33:04.869000+08:00","text":"鄭天財委員的第三條有三個修正重點，第一個部分就是提到主委\n要山、平原輪流，其實對我來講，我不能接受，為什麼？","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T14:33:04.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:33:30.670000+08:00","text":"因為我一向主張山、平原是錯誤歷史\n的殖民遺緒分類，對我們中華民國這個民主憲政國家，其實在我們的憲法上面有這樣的一個分\n類，我就已經覺得很丟臉了，但是很可惜，雖然上次的修憲委員有提，但是沒有被這樣子認同\n，不過我們會繼續努力。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T14:33:30.670000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:33:51.855000+08:00","text":"所以當我看到山、平原要輪流，其實它有太多謬誤，除了所謂的殖民\n遺緒分類這樣的一個謬誤之外，為什麼要分山、平原？","quality":0.042},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T14:33:51.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:33:53.616000+08:00","text":"阿美族有山原，也有平原，魯凱族也有\n山原、平原，那到底為什麼要山、平原輪流？","quality":0.323},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T14:33:54.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:34:05.702000+08:00","text":"我是覺得我們倒不如把力氣放在……真的，我們\n就把這個山、平原不當的歷史分類拿掉，這是我的第一個意見。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T14:34:05.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:34:12.146000+08:00","text":"第二個部分，修正重點提到主委要經過原住民的議員、鄉長……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:34:12.146000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:34:14.263000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：那個已經沒有了。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:34:14.263000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:34:16.380000+08:00","text":"伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：這個沒有了嗎？","quality":0.214},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:34:16.380000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:34:18.497000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：後來的修正動議就沒有了。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:34:18.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:34:28.800000+08:00","text":"伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：好，這個已經確定沒有了，因為我覺得這個真的有違憲的疑慮\n，那我們就不談了。","quality":0.537},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:34:29.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:34:36.081000+08:00","text":"再來是任期四年的部分，如果這個第二項沒有，所以任期四年也沒有了嗎\n？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:34:36.081000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:34:37.891200+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：沒有了。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:34:37.891200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:34:39.701400+08:00","text":"伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：任期四年也沒有了？","quality":0.267},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:34:39.701400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:34:41.511600+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：第二項都沒有了。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:34:41.511600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:34:43.321800+08:00","text":"伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：所以只留下山、平原？","quality":0.233},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:34:43.321800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:34:45.132000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：對。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:34:45.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:35:32.564000+08:00","text":"伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：好，這個部分倒是高金素梅委員的版本我是非常支持、認同的\n，因為我向來也主張……因為我們原民會其實就是一個小內閣，它的業務範圍其實就是所有部\n322\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 94 期 黨團協商紀錄\n會含括，所以一直以來，如果原民會能夠有所謂的政委，然後兼任原民會主委，那麼他們就可\n以去做一個調度、統合，對我們整個原住民事務的推動，我相信會大大的加分，只是說這個部\n分會不會也要連動去修行政院組織法？","quality":0.481},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:35:33.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:35:46.272000+08:00","text":"這個部分就留給大家討論，但是基本上我的立場，我是\n真的覺得可以，這是我個人的一個意見。","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:35:46.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:36:25.396000+08:00","text":"關於第四條的部分，我也要說明一下，因為我有特別去翻條文，所以我也想聽聽看，因為 103\n年公布，當時我看到這個第四條，現在的條文就是高金素梅委員的版本，也就是院版，然後鄭\n天財委員的版本其實是更前進的，他希望這些族群委員是簡任十三職等，比現在的版本十二職\n等還要更高。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:36:27.197000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:37:02.912000+08:00","text":"經過了十年是什麼原因，這個部分我就不予置評，但是我想要去討論一下，因為\n我很難過，我把這個稱作是自我閹割，因為像我們跟客委會那些就不一樣，他們是諮詢委員，\n而我最不理解的是，我們到底懂不懂原住民族族群委員真正的意涵、委員會真正的意涵？","quality":0.99},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:37:04.392000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:37:37.450000+08:00","text":"我們原\n住民族在臺灣，未來可能還超越十六族，這麼多的族群，然後由一個單一族群的人擔任主委，\n而且它還不是真正所謂的一個委員制，不是由各族群推派代表，再由這些代表推舉主委、副主\n委，我們現在這樣的方式，一個單一族群的主委，他要怎麼樣去做全國原住民族族群的事務？","quality":0.965},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:37:37.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:37:47.356000+08:00","text":"所以我們才會跟別人不一樣，我們才會有所謂的有給職的族群委員，我不理解為什麼要自我閹\n割？","quality":0.975},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:37:47.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:37:58.238000+08:00","text":"一方面說我們要爭取，像是禁伐補償、原住民的權益，一方面又要去把我們原住民的服務\n能量毀滅掉，這個要對歷史負責！","quality":0.98},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:37:58.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:38:13.431000+08:00","text":"我真的不理解，我們前面的人這麼辛苦去弄出這樣的一個組\n織法，今天要自我閹割，我是真的不理解！","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:38:14.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:39:12.079000+08:00","text":"第二個我要特別談，他們是聘用委員，我也去調了資料，我看到他們的聘書，因為我以前也\n不清楚到底族群委員是怎麼選出來、在做哪些事，他們的工作手冊還有他們的聘用契約其實都\n是非常完整的，而且我看他們的工作手冊是滿、滿、滿，上面還列了一堆的人民團體組織，都\n是他們必須一一去拜會的對象，所以他們等於是在代替我們整個原住民族委員會去做各地的地\n方事務，工作內容非常的繁雜、非常的辛苦。","quality":0.637},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:39:13.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:39:19.383000+08:00","text":"我是希望主席，有沒有可能下一次請族群委員來\n講話？","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:39:19.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:39:21.605000+08:00","text":"因為我也不知道到底他們覺得如何？","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:39:23.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:39:30.575000+08:00","text":"這個部分我覺得不應該，其實上次第一次聽到的時候\n我心裡很難過，我覺得為什麼我們原住民族人做事、為政府做事，我們只能無給職嗎？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:39:30.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:39:30.815000+08:00","text":"我們不\n配領薪水嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:39:30.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:39:31.295000+08:00","text":"所以這個部分我真的完全不能理解。","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:39:51.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:40:09.277000+08:00","text":"再來，它是一個行政團隊的概念，我上次也是嚇了一跳，說是綠油油，所以我也特別去調了\n資料，我們來看一下，不就是這樣嗎？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:40:21.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:40:26.515000+08:00","text":"像高虹安去當了新竹市市長，我們看到所有民眾黨的團\n隊也都進去當幕僚團隊啊，不是嗎？","quality":0.919},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:40:26.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:40:29.297000+08:00","text":"那邊有圖卡，而馬英九時期的族群委員，我也特別去調了\n，不就是長這樣嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:40:29.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:40:53.105000+08:00","text":"所以我不太理解為什麼要這樣子去自我毀滅、自我閹割，然後自我矮化、\n自我汙名化！","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:40:53.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:40:53.886000+08:00","text":"我真的是沒有辦法理解，所以我今天特別到這個地方來講。","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:41:04.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:41:24.334000+08:00","text":"我相信我們的族群聘\n用委員確實有他的存在，但是更重要的我要講的是，當他是一個行政團隊概念的時候，我們應\n該著重的是他的工作態度、他的遴選方法，還有我們所謂的行政團隊的人才培育。","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:41:25.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:41:39.940000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得\n這個部分，這次我有感受到受侮辱，我真的覺得嚴重受侮辱，真的！","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:41:41.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:41:47.061000+08:00","text":"然後原住民自己這樣子，\n我真的覺得不可思議！","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:41:47.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:41:54.003000+08:00","text":"自己的版本，10 年之後要這樣子自我矮化、自我閹割、自我汙名化，真\n的！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:41:54.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:41:55.003000+08:00","text":"我不理解。","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:41:56.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:41:59.264000+08:00","text":"所以請大家，我們就三思，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:41:59.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:41:59.564000+08:00","text":"我會再繼續發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T14:41:59.564000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:42:07.819000+08:00","text":"323\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 94 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-06T14:42:07.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:42:47.345000+08:00","text":"首先，對於第三條保留鄭天財委員所說的輪流擔任這樣一個機制，或者其實應該更精\n確來說是翁曉玲、鄭天財委員所提的原住民族委員會主委由具山原或平原族群身分者輪流擔任\n，其實這樣一個想法很容易理解，不要說是山原、平原，在各式各樣的族群當中，性別、各式\n各樣很清楚的可以分類的團體當中，都會出現這樣一個要求。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-06T14:42:48.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:42:58.062000+08:00","text":"其實在臺灣的地方選舉、地方自\n治的傳統當中，譬如說桃園，就有長期以來所謂的閩、客輪流擔任縣長，過去這樣的選舉，但\n是它是一種民間透過選民或者透過候選人自發去形成的。","quality":0.466},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-06T14:42:58.062000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:43:45.500000+08:00","text":"如果放在法制化上來說，目前我們對\n於性別主流，也都很清楚的，為了避免性別要求平權，我們有任一性別不得少於三分之一這樣\n一個規定，是在我們國家的法律當中保障單一性別不至於淪為弱勢，我這裡沒有說特定哪一個\n性別，其實任何一個性別都有可能。","quality":0.028},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-06T14:43:45.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:44:11.081000+08:00","text":"除了性別之外，我再說族群好了，其實長期以來，在我所\n身處的屏東，我們有客家，剛好我有一半，我父親的身分是客家，對於客家委員會也常常有要\n求南客跟北客要有均衡的對待，因此剛剛翁曉玲委員版跟鄭天財委員版有提到，如果原住民族\n當中在臺灣的確有山原跟平原的分類，所以希望能夠均勻的照顧到單一族群不被冷落或不被輕\n忽，我覺得這樣的一個思考是非常常見，也可以理解。","quality":0.566},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-06T14:44:11.081000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:44:21.408333+08:00","text":"現在我要談的是制度上怎麼去設計？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-06T14:44:21.408333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:44:31.735667+08:00","text":"我們以性別主流化來說，它是以同一時間的委員人數不\n得少於三分之一，因為很難剛好。","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-06T14:44:31.735667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:44:42.063000+08:00","text":"現在連性別，我們都不說兩性了，我們都說性別平權，我們\n不會說兩性平權，因為現在性別的概念都有隨著時代在推移。","quality":0.021},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-06T14:44:42.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:44:46.007000+08:00","text":"至於所謂的南客、北客，也沒有\n見諸法律。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-06T14:44:46.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:45:26.998000+08:00","text":"至於輪流擔任這樣的說法，會出現一個問題，剛剛講到，我們講性別的時候，它是\n以同一時間總數的比例，如果是輪流，因為考慮到臺灣目前的設置，政務官、部會首長並沒有\n明確的任期，他可以做一個月，也可以做一年，甚至有人是做了一輩子，就是做到他不能再擔\n任為止，因此所謂的輪流擔任，在法律上未來的發展，還是有可能在時間上呈現出不能夠均勻\n的照顧到相對應的族群身上。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-06T14:45:27.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:45:53.611000+08:00","text":"所以如果考量到這樣的機制設計，因為沒有明確任期，如果一任兩年或一任四年，比如說現\n場我們在場有民眾黨的朋友，聽說民眾黨他們的不分區委員是用兩年、兩年來做區分，如果同\n一個職缺，兩年是誰，另外兩年是誰，這個就不是輪流了，這就是明確的把每個人的額份訂出\n來。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-06T14:45:53.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:46:04.341000+08:00","text":"由於原住民族委員會的主委並沒有任期四年的規定，如果我們這裡說必須輪流，那輪流的\n意思是一個人兩年嗎？","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-06T14:46:04.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:46:06.363000+08:00","text":"一個族群是兩年嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-06T14:46:06.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:46:07.384000+08:00","text":"還是怎麼樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-06T14:46:07.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:46:10.267000+08:00","text":"還是說前面那個做一年，後面那個就\n不能做超過一年？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-06T14:46:11.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:46:11.829000+08:00","text":"這樣才公平啊！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-06T14:46:12.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:46:20.336000+08:00","text":"所以輪流的概念要達到公平的，法律上所要求的均勻、對等\n的照顧是不容易做到的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-06T14:46:20.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:46:39.575000+08:00","text":"所以我建議何妨大家思考一下，因為原住民族委員會目前設主委一人\n、政務副主委兩人、常務副主委一人，總共是四位，都是簡任十四職等，或比照簡任十四職等\n，或特任這樣的高階官員。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-06T14:46:39.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:46:51.926000+08:00","text":"以四位來講，如果真的要求到均等，或許同一時間有四位的話，那\n各兩位這樣一個法律規範的條文是比較容易落實的。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-06T14:46:52.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:47:10.842000+08:00","text":"我這裡只是以鄭委員跟翁委員的思維，如果要均勻的對待山原跟平原不同族群，都是原住民\n的朋友，或許不是用「輪流」這樣不確定的法律概念，因為輪流這樣的概念，你要怎麼樣在時\n間上達到一個公平對待的方式？","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-06T14:47:11.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:47:11.322000+08:00","text":"不容易！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-06T14:47:11.322000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:47:12.322000+08:00","text":"操作上會困難。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-06T14:47:12.322000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:47:13.322000+08:00","text":"如果你們是採取同一個時間，剛好這\n324\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 94 期 黨團協商紀錄\n最重要的四個職務，剛好四位嘛！","quality":0.023},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-06T14:47:12.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:47:41.285000+08:00","text":"然後各一半，一半是山原、一半是平原，當然這裡你會計較\n，這個有常任副主委、政務副主委、也有主任委員，或許我們理解到行政院長在提名的時候，\n如果有這樣明確的規定，那麼，這或許也不妨是一個可以落實的法律規範。","quality":0.472},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-06T14:47:41.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:47:59.775000+08:00","text":"我再強調一次，我\n覺得有兩個應該公平對待的族群，應該在制度上被合理的照顧，這個我覺得是支持的，但是要\n怎麼在制度上設計讓它可操作，而且要達到可公平的效果？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-06T14:48:00.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:48:01.276000+08:00","text":"應該要去慎重考慮！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-06T14:48:01.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:48:39.766000+08:00","text":"所以這裡請我們原提案人可以思考一下，真的要做到公平、可操作，就要避免所謂的輪流，\n這種是一個很不確定的一種作法，這在其他國家或我們國內的先例都不太容易維持，我別的不\n談，單單是馬來西亞，馬哈迪後來就有跟希望聯盟他們講好了，後面兩年輪流擔任，但是內閣\n制的國家，任期沒有一個固定的保障，所以到底做多久是做完一半？","quality":0.604},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-06T14:48:40.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:48:41.432000+08:00","text":"就很難判斷啦！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-06T14:48:42.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:48:44.414000+08:00","text":"前面一半\n跟後面一半，到底誰先誰後？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-06T14:48:45.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:48:49.057000+08:00","text":"就造成了一個毀棄承諾的問題！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-06T14:48:49.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:48:59.022000+08:00","text":"所以再次提醒兩位提案委員可以\n思考一下，我講的不是原則的問題，我講的是如何去落實法律條文的設計可以貫徹你要求的一\n個平等對待的精神，以上說明。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T14:48:59.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:48:59.062000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T14:48:59.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:48:59.502000+08:00","text":"國民黨這邊有沒有要表示什麼意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T14:48:59.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:48:59.803000+08:00","text":"或民眾黨這邊有沒有要表示意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T14:48:59.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:48:59.843000+08:00","text":"或無黨這\n邊？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:49:13.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:49:14.516000+08:00","text":"高金素梅第一次發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:49:15.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:49:28.641000+08:00","text":"我還記得第一次我們做提案說明的時候，或者在這個地方我\n們有討論過，針對第三條的部分，我是尊重，也同意鄭天財委員的說法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:49:29.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:49:45.330000+08:00","text":"但是第四條，剛剛聽\n到伍委員在這邊這麼樣哽咽的說話，其實我都覺得，身為原住民族的族人，我們也感到替他難\n過，為什麼？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:49:45.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:49:59.304000+08:00","text":"因為他講得很激動，但是事實上，我們都是從部落裡面來的，我們也都清楚知道\n這些族群代表所代表的是誰、在部落參加什麼事情。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:49:59.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:50:26.733000+08:00","text":"我先請大家看一下，原住民族委員會所謂的委員權責，它聘用 19 到 29 個人，我們都知道有\n16 個族群委員是有給薪資的，薪資大概一個月八萬多塊錢，如果再加上交通費、再加上一些出\n差費，大概有十萬以上。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:50:28.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:50:38.341000+08:00","text":"我們想想這個十萬以上比部落的文健站要大學畢業的孩子照顧我們部\n落的族人，他的工作簡直輕鬆很多！","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:50:39.261000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:50:49.849000+08:00","text":"我們都知道，我們到婚喪喜慶裡面看到的都是族群委員在\n那邊講話，至於講什麼話，部落裡面也都有錄影回來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:50:50.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:51:19.542000+08:00","text":"我本來不覺得這件事情非常嚴重，自從\n上次黃國昌委員，他其實非常認真，雖然原民會沒有提供給他完整的資料，但是我這次請原民\n會提供的資料裡面，我先讓大家知道，不管是莊瑞雄委員也好，伍麗華委員也好，只要哪一個\n政黨執政了以後，一定都會有他們自己黨員，但是這一大堆的名冊告訴我的是，我們來看一下\n族群委員名單，這次是真的特別、非常的特別啦！","quality":0.662},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:51:41.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:51:45.871000+08:00","text":"總共有 16 個族群委員，現在有 15 個在我手上，太魯閣族審查名單只有一位，不好意思講你\n的名字啦，是您的特助，然後是誰推薦的？","quality":0.3},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:51:46.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:51:50.073000+08:00","text":"也是伍麗華委員推薦的；賽德克族審查名單有三位\n，一位當選，誰推薦的？","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:51:50.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:52:08.957000+08:00","text":"伍麗華委員推薦的；布農族的審查名單有三位，只有一位當選，然後\n推薦的人是誰呢？","quality":0.529},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:52:10.077000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:53:37.607000+08:00","text":"是伍麗華委員推薦的；鄒族審查名單有一位，也是伍麗華委員的特助，伍麗\n華推薦的，卡那卡那富族審查名單有五位，有一個自薦的當選了；拉阿魯哇族審查名單有兩位\n，一位當選，伍麗華委員的推薦；邵族審查名單有兩位，一位當選，陳瑩委員推薦的；卑南族\n審查名單有七位，是民族議會推薦的；賽夏族審查名單有三位，有一位當選，是民族議會推薦\n325\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 94 期 黨團協商紀錄\n的，但也是伍麗華委員推薦的；泰雅族審查名單有四位，然後是伍麗華五峰鄉的總召當選，當\n然是伍麗華的推薦；魯凱族有兩位民進黨原民部督導，然後誰推薦的？","quality":0.427},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:53:37.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:53:57.496000+08:00","text":"伍麗華委員推薦的；雅\n美族審查名單有兩位，身分別是民進黨蘭嶼聯絡站的總站，也是伍麗華委員推薦的；阿美族，\n不要講名字，審查名單有五位，以前的身分是陳瑩服務處的處長，是陳瑩推薦的；排灣族審查\n的名單有兩位，他曾經的身分是伍麗華競選副總幹事，然後也是伍麗華委員推薦的；撒奇萊雅\n族的審查名單有兩位，然後是陳瑩委員推薦的。","quality":0.393},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:53:57.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:54:18.522000+08:00","text":"我是依照上一次黃國昌委員提供的名單，才會\n請原民會提供現在被推薦的名單，你知道嗎？","quality":0.459},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:54:18.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:54:50.361000+08:00","text":"在內政委員會質詢的時候問主委，主委沒有參加\n這樣一個推薦審查，他居然不知道是誰，但是在整個審查過程當中，主委本來就要在，這個不\n是我編出來的，你們待會可以回去看一下，就是哪一位委員推薦的、他相關的職務都在上面，\n這是助理整理出來的。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:54:50.821000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:55:33.529000+08:00","text":"然後我們來看一下這些人應該要做些什麼事情，事實上，19 到 29 位當中有 16 位是所謂的民\n族議會的委員，不要忘記我們現在有民族部落議會，按照規則，委員必須要有一些部落的代表\n，我還記得 113 年接到很多部落跟我反映，說在部落中形成一個很大的衝突啦，為什麼是他不是\n我？","quality":0.445},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:55:36.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:55:49.260000+08:00","text":"最後大家就說，既然以後這個族群委員要做部落的事務，他要跟部落很相近，而且他要推\n廣所有的文化，我們是不是從部落議會裡面來推薦，再由我們推薦幾位，然後再由原民會挑選\n出來，而不是某某人推薦他就上了。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:55:49.481000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:56:13.592000+08:00","text":"我剛剛有講到他領的薪資大概十萬塊左右，這對一個部落\n裡面的年輕人來說，相對的剝奪感其實是蠻重的。","quality":0.523},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:56:14.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:56:15.495000+08:00","text":"他要做什麼事情呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:56:15.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:56:23.687000+08:00","text":"第一，他要出席本會委員會議，要對委員會議提出本會相關的議案、對\n本會業務改進意見的提議，對原民會要有這三種工作。","quality":0.54},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:56:23.687000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T14:56:49.932000+08:00","text":"第二，就是依聘用人員聘用條例聘用的\n委員，除了前三項的權責之外，他要依照主任委員的指派，辦理下面的事項，有八項，很多，\n真的是蠻辛苦的。","quality":0.086},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:56:49.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:57:01.545000+08:00","text":"我們來看一下有什麼，委員會議重要的議案要先期審查，例如可能要審土海\n法，原民會還沒有送出來，他們可能就要先審。","quality":0.776},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:57:02.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:57:09.790000+08:00","text":"我想請問一下谷縱副主委，現在這些族群委員\n有參與這樣重要的會議嗎？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:57:09.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:57:23.277000+08:00","text":"就我了解，這些跟法案有關係的都是無給職、沒有領薪水的專家學\n者在參加，族群委員幾乎是沒有參加的。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:57:26.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:57:27.439000+08:00","text":"他要做什麼事情？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:57:28.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:57:36.143000+08:00","text":"第二是原住民族的政策、制度、計\n畫還有方案的先期審查，有嗎？","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:57:36.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:58:11.327000+08:00","text":"第三、原住民族相關法規的先期審查；第四、相關機關原住民\n族事務之先期協調還有聯繫；第五、主持或出席專案小組的會議；第六、主持或參與與族群相\n關的會議，調查、研究跟協調；第七、參加族群歲時祭儀、民俗文化及傳統技藝展演、慶典或\n活動；第八、其他交代事項。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:58:12.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:58:58.474000+08:00","text":"我現在手上也整理了一下，沒有全部整理，大概整理了一下，聘用委員叫誰，我就不講了，\n他參加公祭 6 個小時，某個委員出差公祭 12 個小時，某個委員參加公祭 8 個小時，某個委員參\n加結婚歸寧典禮 8 個小時，某個委員參加公祭 8 個小時，某個委員參加結婚典禮 8 個小時，某\n個委員參加某位老夫人的公祭 8 個小時，這我才只是整理了一點點。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:58:58.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:59:38.685000+08:00","text":"我們看到這些族群委員每\n個月領將近十萬塊的薪水，還有退職金，但他做的事情、他的權責，我在整理時並沒有看到他\n參加重要議案的先期審查，或者是原住民族政策、制度、計畫、方案的先期審查，還有相關法\n規的先期審查，至少原民會現在沒有提供給我，說他們有參加這樣子的會議，最重要的是他們\n326\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 94 期 黨團協商紀錄\n上下班不用打卡，只要填他們去哪裡參加婚宴就可以去。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:59:39.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T14:59:54.483000+08:00","text":"當然，我知道原住民的選區非常的大，如果我要到一個部落去參加婚喪喜慶的確要花很長的\n時間，但那不應該是我們族群委員該做的事情吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T14:59:55.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:00:11.091000+08:00","text":"族群委員要做的事情，既然你講是跟文化、\n族群、部落裡面的連結那麼重要的話，為什麼原民會推自治法、土海法推了這麼久，你們都還\n說部落還有意見呢？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:00:12.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:00:27.488000+08:00","text":"如果這些族群委員都不把土海法、自治法跟部落裡面的人討論清楚，然後\n每一次還要原民會的人親自去召開會議，那我們要族群委員幹什麼呢？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:00:28.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:00:44.244000+08:00","text":"族群委員最重要的是他\n對部落的事務，第一要很熟悉，第二他對他的文化要很了解，第三他要被這個族群認同，所以\n，基本上族群委員就應該參加這幾個族群相關的部落會議。","quality":0.761},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:00:44.244000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:01:09.182000+08:00","text":"當然部落分散在很多的地方，比如\n說排灣族有分南排灣、北排灣，也有住臺東的，這個時候原民會是不是要把各地方部落族人推\n薦的名單一起拿來，然後按照他在部落裡面的貢獻？","quality":0.11},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:01:09.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:01:37.408000+08:00","text":"原民會還記得 113 年我就讓你們要把遴選辦\n法修正，你們到現在一直都沒有修正，所以這也是為什麼我這次提出來，既然我們的族群委員\n造成部落上相對年輕人被剝奪感那麼嚴重，而且造成部落裡面內部紛爭的話，你為什麼不要把\n遴選制度再做得更好一點呢？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:01:39.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:01:43.532000+08:00","text":"請問一下，我 113 年講遴選制度，講到現在你們改了沒有？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:01:43.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:02:01.459000+08:00","text":"沒有，\n反而更可怕，更可怕的是你們給我的這一堆名單裡面，難怪部落裡面的人紛紛一直在投訴，不\n只投訴我這邊，還投訴到不是原住民委員的辦公室，所以黃國昌委員會拿到那麼多的資料。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:02:02.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:02:29.941000+08:00","text":"所以我再講，今天不是說我們在對個別的委員做一些攻擊，我們是就事論事，以上我希望大\n家能夠聽到，如果今天原民會，你有意要表達你覺得我講的是正確的，你們要來修改這些遴選\n制度辦法，其實我們也想聽聽看啊，是不是他就跟專家學者一樣呢？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:02:30.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:02:31.642000+08:00","text":"他是榮譽職的呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:02:32.183000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:02:34.925000+08:00","text":"他有來\n參加會議，我們就給他交通費呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:02:35.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:02:38.828000+08:00","text":"這樣子是不是相對剝奪感會少一點呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:02:39.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:02:39.948000+08:00","text":"是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:02:40.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:02:44.352000+08:00","text":"113 年到現在\n，你們沒有修改，原民會你們也是失職啊！","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:02:45.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:03:11.063000+08:00","text":"然後，原民會主委甚至於就在備詢臺上很清楚講說\n只有一張紙在他桌上，你回去調資料、你回去調資料，這個原民會主委在內政委員會裡面的說\n法，你都可以去調資料，當時我聽了、黃國昌聽了，我們都嚇了一大跳，只有一張紙在你桌上\n啊？","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:03:12.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:03:15.664000+08:00","text":"整個遴聘的過程你都沒有參加？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:03:16.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:03:17.824000+08:00","text":"他啞口無言啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:03:19.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:03:26.486000+08:00","text":"所以上一次不是您來，谷縱，上一次是鍾\n副主委，到底這個工作是鍾副主委還是您？","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:03:28.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:03:32.107000+08:00","text":"到底你們兩個是誰分派這個業務，好不好？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:03:32.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:03:35.528000+08:00","text":"謝謝，\n你待會也可以回答一下，謝謝。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T15:03:35.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:03:57.630000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：我要特別說明族群委員的制度，伍委員聽清楚，不是 103 年，民國 85 年\n的行政院，那時候原住民族委員會的名稱沒有「族」，是「行政院原住民委員會」。","quality":0.441},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T15:04:13.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:04:49.199000+08:00","text":"當初法律\n的提案、行政院的版本是用組織規程，所以也沒有什麼族群委員，是民國 85 年之前我們的前輩\n蔡中涵立委的提案，原民會以前是組織條例，組織條例的提案就是列了族群委員，然後 103 年\n做什麼呢？","quality":0.975},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T15:04:49.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:05:06.933000+08:00","text":"是因為所有的組織條例都要改為組織法，所以我們才會提條文，主要是原民會當初\n有 4 個處，我們增加了 2 個處，就是現在的 6 個處，主要的條文是這樣，因為要把組織條例全\n部要改為組織法，這是整個立法的政策方向，這是行政院的政策方向。","quality":0.385},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T15:05:07.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:05:46.070000+08:00","text":"然後我們一再的爭取要\n把原住民文化園區維持「局」的地位，但是沒辦法，因為那時候已經限縮在 70 個裡面，當初的\n目的是這樣，所以不是 103 年才開始的，所以這個部分是民國 85 年。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T15:05:47.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:06:50.416000+08:00","text":"我們的前輩這幾年看了我\n327\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 94 期 黨團協商紀錄\n們的族群委員在部落、在原民會，我們那個前輩也常常去原民會，他對我們的族群委員跟以前\n真的是差之千里，他也非常搖頭，加上剛才高金委員所陳述的各族群的意見、各部落的意見，\n我也接到很多這樣的意見，所以我上次在司法及法制委員會審查的時候，你們兩位沒有來，我\n那時候也說了，我們要把有給職變成無給職，我們也是很難過的，但是不得不，還不如把這些\n多少的錢？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T15:06:50.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:06:52.596000+08:00","text":"一個月八萬多塊……","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:06:52.596000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:06:56.759000+08:00","text":"加上還有誤餐費、交通費……","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T15:06:56.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:08:03.230000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：整個族群委員的預算編列一年要一千多萬的經費，原民會的職員人數在\n103 年時，我跟高金委員當初提了附帶決議，職員最少要 195 人，104 年就達到了，然後最高要\n達到 280 人，隨著預算的成長，原民會的預算在 104 年時是七十七億八千多萬，而 114 年度的預\n算，加上這些基金單位預算，還有文健站的經費，已經成長到 145 億多了。","quality":0.578},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T15:08:05.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:08:17.941000+08:00","text":"所以我的建議就是把這些族群委員全部的經費改列為無給職，可以增加 16 乘以 2，最起碼有\n三十幾個職員。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T15:08:21.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:09:08.229000+08:00","text":"現在原民會的職員非常的辛苦，增加了這麼多的經費，然後人力都沒有增加，\n還維持在我們 103 年時所定的最低額度，當初希望能夠達到 280 人，所以這個部分從 104 年一\n直到現在，預算成長這麼多，但是人員、職員那麼少，我一再質詢人事行政總處就是沒有辦法\n增加，所以我們希望，族群委員既然已經沒有展現出我們的前輩當初立法的目的，這個部分，\n譬如我舉個例子，部落公法人，原民會就可以定了，對不對？","quality":0.801},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T15:09:08.229000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:09:20.124500+08:00","text":"可是我們的族群委員就沒有反映\n，類似像這樣，為什麼原住民族自治法這八年來沒有辦法送到立法院？","quality":0.071},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T15:09:20.124500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:09:32.020000+08:00","text":"原住民族土地及海域法\n八年來沒有辦法送到立法院？","quality":0.091},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T15:09:32.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:09:53.169000+08:00","text":"這是唯一八年沒有送來的，其他的陳水扁總統、馬英九總統都有\n送來，所以連出原民會都沒有、連提案都沒有提，族群委員就是有這個責任，顯然已經失去了\n。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T15:09:55.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:10:00.432000+08:00","text":"我們的鄉親說他怎麼代表主委去參加婚喪喜慶？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T15:10:00.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:10:03.613000+08:00","text":"族群委員的工作是這些嗎？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T15:10:03.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:10:03.893000+08:00","text":"真的是！","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T15:10:05.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:10:19.898000+08:00","text":"我們一\n般的鄉親就覺得很納悶，這部分已經失去了，我們才會很忍痛的來提案，所以這個部分是有這\n樣一個問題。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T15:10:19.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:10:28.792000+08:00","text":"另外山原跟平原，因為已經實施這麼多年，你要把它不分，難啊，已經很難了！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T15:10:30.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:10:51.160000+08:00","text":"伍委員，你\n已經有經歷過，上次你提地方制度法要把它不分，結果遇到很多的攔阻、很多的問題，問題很\n多、會影響很多，所以我還是建議大家能夠支持本席還有高金素梅委員的提案，以上。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:10:56.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:11:03.362000+08:00","text":"因為剛剛伍委員先舉手，那麻煩讓伍委員先，伍委員完再……\n伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：好，謝謝。","quality":0.438},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:11:04.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:11:07.486000+08:00","text":"我先及早澄清，下面的對話會比較容易。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:11:09.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:11:17.675000+08:00","text":"我剛剛聽\n完之後，我旁邊的委員也聽不下去就離開了，因為他們說留給原住民委員自己講話。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:11:17.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:11:25.015000+08:00","text":"很難看，\n在這邊的對談竟然是暴露，我一直很納悶，為什麼要修？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:11:25.015000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:11:26.015000+08:00","text":"不會難看啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:11:25.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:11:25.775000+08:00","text":"伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：不是只有我納悶，很多人都納悶為什麼要修？","quality":0.45},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:11:25.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:11:26.936000+08:00","text":"結果原來還是暴\n露了一己之私。","quality":0.462},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:11:26.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:11:27.176000+08:00","text":"哪裡來的一己之私啊？","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:11:27.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:11:57.981000+08:00","text":"伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：我來說明一下，我今天聽到前面那一些話，我覺得很不好意思\n，我還是要再重申，我就講，黃國昌上次也給我造謠那個看板的。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:11:59.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:12:06.663000+08:00","text":"我再說明一次，我們作為一\n328\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 94 期 黨團協商紀錄\n個行政團隊，大家都是立法委員，我們都有推薦的資格。","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:12:06.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:12:21.413000+08:00","text":"但是我一個一個講，第一個是拉阿魯\n哇族，我也要來問原民會是怎麼給資料的？","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:12:21.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:12:23.456000+08:00","text":"謝垂耀是拉阿魯哇族的領袖，他們開會把名單報給\n我，我轉給你們，怎麼就變成是我推薦？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:12:47.183000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:12:48.043000+08:00","text":"關於卡那卡那富族，上次爆發那個記者會，我去問區長怎麼回事？丟臉！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:12:48.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:12:48.524000+08:00","text":"385 個人的族群，我\n真的要講嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:12:48.524000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:12:49.524000+08:00","text":"前科啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:12:48.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:12:51.365000+08:00","text":"伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：第一個有前科、第二個有前科，第三個有瑕疵，最後一個搞了\n老半天，他說家裡有事不能來報到，這樣也賴到我頭上！","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:13:19.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:13:51.950000+08:00","text":"太魯閣族的高維寧也是由他們的大老、前任的委員 Jiru 牧師經過開會推舉出來的；布農族的\n委員也是透過地方議員推薦出來的；更扯的是，鄒族的委員是翁章梁縣長親自寫推薦函的，最\n後每個都變成是我？","quality":0.779},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:13:51.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:13:52.270000+08:00","text":"我們拿出去給你們，你們還要篩選啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:13:52.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:13:52.710000+08:00","text":"你們有審查會，怎麼會給的資料是\n我呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:14:17.956000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:14:20.420000+08:00","text":"等一下，主席，怎麼一回事？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:14:22.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:14:23.799000+08:00","text":"我想知道怎麼一回事。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員","start":"2024-11-06T15:14:25.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:14:31.885000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，因為高金委員有跟我們調相關的資料，那我們提供給高\n金委員。","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:14:31.885000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:14:33.146000+08:00","text":"是，如果不是伍麗華，為什麼會變伍麗華推薦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:14:33.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:14:38.750000+08:00","text":"這些資料部落自己也可以給，為什麼一定要透過某委員才能夠給呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:14:39.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:14:41.051000+08:00","text":"如果按照他這\n麼講的話，部落裡面有推薦嗎？","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:14:41.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:14:43.193000+08:00","text":"伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：你們以前沒有推薦過嗎？","quality":0.312},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:14:44.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:14:46.815000+08:00","text":"我們一定要在這邊讓人家看笑話嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:14:46.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:14:47.816000+08:00","text":"高金委員素梅；為什麼通通都是你們呢？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:14:50.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:14:55.701000+08:00","text":"如果部落真的有推薦人的話，部落不會自己給原民\n會嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:14:55.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:14:58.283000+08:00","text":"一定要透過某個委員嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:14:58.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:15:04.627000+08:00","text":"高金委員、伍委員……\n伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：憲法都有保障，我們的主管、我們的院長有任命權，我們一定\n要管到這麼細嗎？","quality":0.517},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:15:04.627000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:15:06.809000+08:00","text":"你們不是有一個審查委員會嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:15:06.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:15:08.210000+08:00","text":"不就應該要把關嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:15:08.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:15:10.251000+08:00","text":"伍委員先不要生氣，我們先釐清一下。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:15:10.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:15:11.973000+08:00","text":"召委，請他說明一下。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:15:11.973000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:15:12.973000+08:00","text":"對，剛剛就要請副主委說明一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:15:12.973000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:15:13.973000+08:00","text":"喔，我現在聽了以後覺得這個問題大了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:15:13.973000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:15:14.973000+08:00","text":"資料是副主委提供的嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:15:14.973000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:15:15.973000+08:00","text":"那副主委是不是說明一下？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:15:15.973000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:15:16.973000+08:00","text":"我們把它釐清楚好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:15:16.973000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:15:17.973000+08:00","text":"我雖然都自認為是被漢人偷抱走的，但是我很仔細在聽到底\n是怎麼一回事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:15:17.973000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:15:18.973000+08:00","text":"重點不是在誰推薦，重點是這些人做了什麼事情。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:15:18.973000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:15:19.973000+08:00","text":"伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：好，更侮辱人。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:15:12.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:15:43.054000+08:00","text":"主席，我強烈要求，請邀請這些族群委員來這\n個地方說明，我覺得他們應該都願意。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:15:43.054000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:15:45.918800+08:00","text":"為什麼不請部落的人來啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:15:45.918800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:15:48.783600+08:00","text":"部落的人也可以來啊，如果這樣講的話，為什麼一定要\n族群委員來呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:15:48.783600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:15:51.648400+08:00","text":"部落裡面……\n329\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 94 期 黨團協商紀錄\n伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：族群委員到底做什麼事，我們怎麼知道呢？","quality":0.293},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:15:51.648400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:15:54.513200+08:00","text":"我們在部落都看到啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:15:54.513200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:15:57.378000+08:00","text":"伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：天啊！","quality":0.042},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:15:57.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:15:58.598000+08:00","text":"來，你現在告訴我是哪一位？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:15:59.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:15:59.819000+08:00","text":"哪一位？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:15:59.819000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:16:01.259500+08:00","text":"你去翻他們的資料吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:16:01.259500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:16:02.700000+08:00","text":"伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：哪一位啊？","quality":0.154},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:16:02.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:16:03.480000+08:00","text":"部落說哪一位？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:16:03.480000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:16:04.923000+08:00","text":"你去翻他們的資料吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:16:04.923000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:16:06.366000+08:00","text":"伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：是哪一位啊？","quality":0.148},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:16:06.366000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:16:07.809000+08:00","text":"我講了，你去翻他們的資料。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:16:07.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:16:10.410000+08:00","text":"伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：你不能這樣隨便誣衊他們的人格！","quality":0.389},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:16:11.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:16:11.930000+08:00","text":"搞不好他們很認真！","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:16:13.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:16:14.492000+08:00","text":"去翻資料，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:16:14.572000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:16:14.612000+08:00","text":"先緩一下。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:16:14.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:16:14.952000+08:00","text":"副主委有沒有辦法解釋？","quality":1},{"speaker":"谷縱‧喀勒芳安副主任委員","start":"2024-11-06T15:16:22.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:16:35.684000+08:00","text":"跟各位委員報告，有關聘用委員，我們遴選的方式比較多元，有些是\n透過民族議會，有一些是各界推薦……","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:16:35.684000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:16:37.065000+08:00","text":"只有一個……","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"谷縱‧喀勒芳安副主任委員","start":"2024-11-06T15:16:37.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:16:37.285000+08:00","text":"沒有，委員，沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"谷縱‧喀勒芳安副主任委員","start":"2024-11-06T15:16:37.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:16:41.848000+08:00","text":"我們還有幾個都是民族議會推薦的。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"谷縱‧喀勒芳安副主任委員","start":"2024-11-06T15:16:43.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:16:46.270000+08:00","text":"剛剛委員你\n唸到卑南族，那就是民族議會通過的。","quality":0.65},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:16:46.270000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:16:47.270000+08:00","text":"就卑南族一個啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"谷縱‧喀勒芳安副主任委員","start":"2024-11-06T15:16:47.270000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:16:48.270000+08:00","text":"還有賽夏族、賽德克都是民族議會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:16:48.270000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:16:49.270000+08:00","text":"雖然他們有推薦，可是當選的人是他推薦的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"谷縱‧喀勒芳安副主任委員","start":"2024-11-06T15:16:49.270000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:16:50.270000+08:00","text":"沒有，民族議會推薦的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:16:50.270000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:16:51.270000+08:00","text":"我們有資料就兩個，你自己去看。","quality":0},{"speaker":"谷縱‧喀勒芳安副主任委員","start":"2024-11-06T15:16:51.270000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:16:52.270000+08:00","text":"三個，賽夏族、賽德克、卑南族。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:16:52.270000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:16:53.270000+08:00","text":"就卑南啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"谷縱‧喀勒芳安副主任委員","start":"2024-11-06T15:16:47.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:17:22.797000+08:00","text":"有些是經由民族議會……\n伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：我認為既然有審查的委員制，都沒有這些疑慮了，否則要審查\n委員幹什麼？","quality":0.459},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:17:22.797000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:17:25.222000+08:00","text":"你去看，你去聽聽……\n伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：每天在那邊毀憲亂政，亂七八糟！","quality":0.262},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:17:25.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:17:28.548000+08:00","text":"對，這些都不是高金委員想要的，所以他生氣啊！","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:17:28.548000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:17:31.139000+08:00","text":"我才不會想要……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:17:31.139000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:17:33.730000+08:00","text":"如果大家多元推薦……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:17:33.730000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:17:36.321000+08:00","text":"副主委……","quality":0},{"speaker":"谷縱‧喀勒芳安副主任委員","start":"2024-11-06T15:17:36.321000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:17:38.912000+08:00","text":"我可以再繼續報告嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"谷縱‧喀勒芳安副主任委員","start":"2024-11-06T15:17:38.912000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:17:41.503000+08:00","text":"關於委員的工作，剛剛幾位委員有提到，譬如\n出席委員會議，針對重要議案的討論，剛剛高金委員提到他們有參加嗎？","quality":0.234},{"speaker":"谷縱‧喀勒芳安副主任委員","start":"2024-11-06T15:17:41.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:17:59.437000+08:00","text":"我向大家報告，像我\n330\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 94 期 黨團協商紀錄\n早上主持的部落防減災會議，出席的就有七位委員。","quality":0.386},{"speaker":"谷縱‧喀勒芳安副主任委員","start":"2024-11-06T15:17:59.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:18:12.481000+08:00","text":"另外，我們的人體研究計畫取得原住民族\n同意的會議在要點裡有規範，就是由各族的族群委員參與會議，由他們來決定同不同意關於原\n住民人體研究計畫的通過。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"谷縱‧喀勒芳安副主任委員","start":"2024-11-06T15:18:12.481000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:18:18.439800+08:00","text":"其他，我們每個族群委員都有認養一個業務單位，所以有些會議都\n會找他們參與。","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"谷縱‧喀勒芳安副主任委員","start":"2024-11-06T15:18:18.439800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:18:24.398600+08:00","text":"以我們這一期的族群委員來說，從 9 月聘用到現在，他們參加的會議、會勘與\n活動到現在已經有 189 場次，大概……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:18:24.398600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:18:30.357400+08:00","text":"不太需要他們了，你們原民會在幹什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"谷縱‧喀勒芳安副主任委員","start":"2024-11-06T15:18:30.357400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:18:36.316200+08:00","text":"他們有些可以跟自己的族人溝通。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:18:36.316200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:18:42.275000+08:00","text":"……裡面為什麼要讓他們參加？","quality":0},{"speaker":"谷縱‧喀勒芳安副主任委員","start":"2024-11-06T15:18:42.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:18:44.277000+08:00","text":"主委指示辦理的事項。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:18:44.277000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:18:48.219167+08:00","text":"你們真是莫名其妙！","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:18:48.219167+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:18:52.161333+08:00","text":"是因為你們原民會人手不夠才要他們去嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:18:52.161333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:18:56.103500+08:00","text":"為什麼要這麼……\n請問他們有住在部落裡面，有代表性嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"谷縱‧喀勒芳安副主任委員","start":"2024-11-06T15:18:56.103500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:19:00.045667+08:00","text":"我想我們遴選的時候都有考慮、參考過。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:19:00.045667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:19:03.987833+08:00","text":"不要說有考慮啦，你們根本沒有！","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:19:03.987833+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:19:07.930000+08:00","text":"回去部落問問看吧！主席……抱歉。","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:19:07.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:19:08.170000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:19:09.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:19:16.335000+08:00","text":"對於原住民事務，既然總召已經發言，所以本來是想不用發言的。","quality":0.654},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:19:16.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:19:21.658000+08:00","text":"但剛才\n伍委員點名到我們，因此回應一下。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:19:23.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:19:52.552000+08:00","text":"我們修法是為促進族群公平代表，希望防止以政治來決定\n某些族群代表，並保障山地和平地原住民之平等權益，希望主委的產生具有代表性，讓原住民\n不管山地或平地都能有族群代表發言並保障權利。","quality":0.663},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:19:54.633000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:20:12.743000+08:00","text":"剛才你講到綠油油，沒錯，我們講了「綠油\n油」，這是因為高金委員剛才講推薦的都是你的名字，從我們收到的資料來看，推薦的都是你\n的名字。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:20:16.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:20:25.054000+08:00","text":"請問身為市長、總統或行政院長，是不是可以用自己的人？","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:20:25.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:20:25.975000+08:00","text":"可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:20:27.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:20:30.824000+08:00","text":"就像行政院裡的\n所有部會是不是都用民進黨自己人？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:20:30.824000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:20:33.507000+08:00","text":"伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 委員：我要回答嗎？","quality":0.037},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:20:33.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:20:35.228000+08:00","text":"對，我在問你，不過等一下再回答，好不好？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:20:35.228000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:20:38.071000+08:00","text":"這麼簡單的問題都還要問？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:20:38.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:20:38.731000+08:00","text":"我當然要問！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:20:38.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:20:40.313000+08:00","text":"因為我不瞭解當市長……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:20:40.313000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:20:42.581000+08:00","text":"怎麼當立法委員的！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:20:42.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:20:47.422000+08:00","text":"我當立法委員，我問的就是……請尊重拿麥克風的人，好嗎？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:20:47.422000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:20:49.343000+08:00","text":"我講話，你尊重好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:20:49.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:20:57.285000+08:00","text":"我當立法委員，我跟你平起平坐，我憑我的本事，不是你給的，所以現在要聽我講，講完就換\n你講，我在講的時候，你不要插嘴，這個是禮貌，連禮貌都不知道！","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:20:57.285000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:21:10.892000+08:00","text":"所以我就跟你講的是，你說我們的新竹市長，市長有權力給職，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:21:10.892000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:21:24.499000+08:00","text":"但是你是市長嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:21:24.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:21:38.211000+08:00","text":"我看到都是你推薦嘛，所以你比喻這樣子的話，就變成說你比喻說……對，你比喻說因為他是\n市長，他推薦的人在他的市府裡面很多都是民眾黨的，他有權力，覺得這個人有能力，是能用\n的人，我就推薦嘛，對不對？","quality":0.627},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:21:38.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:21:41.775000+08:00","text":"行政院也是一樣嘛，我能用的人我就去推薦嘛。","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:21:41.775000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:21:43.356000+08:00","text":"今天還有人講說\n331\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 94 期 黨團協商紀錄\n陳水扁當總統的時候，行政院長也用國民黨的，對不對？","quality":0.159},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:21:43.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:22:08.496000+08:00","text":"所以呢，我們希望這個是我們的族群\n，族群不包含哪一個黨，無黨籍、有黨籍都可以推薦，裡面不同部落的人、不同族群的人當委\n員，我們是認同的，我們是覺得很好。","quality":0.462},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:22:09.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:22:25.422000+08:00","text":"但是你這樣比喻，我又看到所有都是你的推薦，所以我\n才覺得你這樣子的比喻的話，我就覺得你不能說……\n市長本來就有這個權力嘛，行政院長就有這個權力嘛，當然是用自己的黨優先選擇嘛！","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:22:26.183000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:23:00.492000+08:00","text":"所以\n說我們希望的是，我們所有的委員，現在客家委員會的委員也是無給職的嘛，所以現在從頭到\n尾我們聽的是，我們不否認一直以來族群委員有薪水，但是他的工作要到位，這樣子對我們的\n族群比較有幫助，對他的職責也有貢獻，我覺得我聽起來是希望這樣，你們也希望這樣子嘛\n，對不對？","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:23:00.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:23:04.393000+08:00","text":"他們也希望這樣子，所以不要說用了、沒有選擇。","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:23:04.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:23:26.734000+08:00","text":"就像現在我們新住民委員會，還有我們移民署的委員會，所有的推薦，各個單位，透過民間\n團體、透過各個委員去推薦，我們內政部長要一一的去甄選、去選擇，不是每個人推薦都有啊\n。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:23:27.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:23:41.720000+08:00","text":"所以我們希望的是大家要用的人，每一個部落都有人才，希望這個委員會的這些人是有能力\n去貢獻的，我們希望的是這樣。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:23:41.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:24:01.809000+08:00","text":"所以我聽起來是這樣，我們希望說，你不用拿這個比喻來去用\n這樣的話，我覺得是有落差啦，所以不是說，因為我看到別人……\n你剛才講的是他們提供的資料有誤差，有可能，但是我們看到的是這樣啊，看到給我們的就\n是這樣的名單嘛，所以我們覺得你又比喻說這樣，所以我覺得應該你是市長了，所以你推薦都\n上，所以你覺得能用的都是你推薦的，所以我覺得你比喻就等於說你當市長有這樣子推薦的權\n力了嘛，這個就是我們要說明的。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:24:01.809000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:24:09.593500+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:24:09.593500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:24:17.378000+08:00","text":"主席、各位委員，我這邊第一次發言。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:24:17.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:25:03.655000+08:00","text":"其實這一次修原住民族委員會組織法的第\n三條及第四條，尤其在第四條的部分，我認為先撇開到底現在的族群代表的政黨性以及專業性\n不說，光是這樣一個委員會，聘了這麼多的委員，在其他的機關，我們剛剛講像客家委員會也\n是聘了相當多的委員，但是他們都是無給職，其實是沒有必要要聘成是專任職。","quality":0.373},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:25:03.655000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:25:32.243000+08:00","text":"我們這邊當然\n也肯定族群委員代表各族群，可能也對於各族群多有貢獻，但是如果從制度面上來講的話，確\n實應該是採取鼓勵，然後大家熱心奉獻，而且以現行制度來講的話，他們也是可以支領車馬費\n、出席費，所以實際上是沒有必要以專任有給職聘任，並給他們這麼高的薪水才合理。","quality":0.233},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:25:32.243000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:26:00.831000+08:00","text":"我這邊\n看到客家委員會的委員是聘 21 人到 27 人，但是都是無給職，這個部分我認為其實是合理的，\n所以從制度上面來講，現在原住民族委員會的委員 19 人到 29 人改為無給職，我認為是有這個\n必要性。","quality":0.156},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:26:00.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:26:56.695000+08:00","text":"再說，以現階段我們所看到的，整個族群委員的遴聘制度上確實也出了很大的問題，不論是\n從推薦的程序、資格的審查、專業能力等種種方面以及他的代表性，其實都沒有一個適當的規\n範，整個規範就是太寬鬆、太粗糙，可能只是需要具備原住民的身分，然後有一些什麼所謂的\n專門知能條件、熱心公益、聲譽卓著，這樣子就可以來擔任原住民族委員會的委員代表，我認\n為從現階段來看，確實在遴選制度上不盡合理，再加上我們如果跟其他的委員會相比較來說，\n確實是沒有必要用有給職聘任的方式來遴選這批委員。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:26:56.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:27:09.372000+08:00","text":"所以我建議就是說，整個行政機關的標\n332\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 94 期 黨團協商紀錄\n準應該是一致的，既然客家委員會的委員都是採無給職，所以原住民族委員會的族群委員其實\n也應該要採無給職才是合理的，謝謝。","quality":0.776},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:27:21.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:28:26.927000+08:00","text":"有關於第三條的部分，我就簡單補充，就是有關主任委員由山原跟平原輪流擔任的部分\n，我就提出一些疑慮，我想很多來參與協商的委員及立法院很多的立委同仁可能不清楚，在我\n們 16 族當中，雖然我們大致區分了山原、平原，但是我舉例，譬如以排灣族來講，曾智勇主委\n來自屏東，他們是山地原住民，但是我們也有一群排灣族的朋友在臺東，是平地原住民，魯凱\n族也有相同的狀況，當然，甚至幾乎都是平地原住民的阿美族，也有少數在旭海的是山地原住\n民，所以我們在各族裡面其實都有，就是大致上可能是平原或山原，但是其中有少數，像泰雅\n族也是一樣，大部分是山原，但是他們在南庄的泰雅族卻是平地原住民。","quality":0.512},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:28:30.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:28:52.690000+08:00","text":"其實我滿尊敬、佩服鄭天財委員，因為在我們所有原住民立委當中，他是法學素養最深厚的\n一位，每一次他的論述還有他提出的修法一定有其深層的意義，未必是大家從這個文字上看得\n出來的。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:28:52.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:29:29.124000+08:00","text":"所以我第一個要提醒的就是山原跟平原，如果今天我們按照這個版本修法成功之後，\n未來呢，如果現在曾智勇主委做完了，下次我們就換臺東的平地原住民，但是是排灣族的，然\n後他做完之後又輪回去山原，又是排灣族，然後再回來又是排灣族、又是平原，這樣也是合乎\n我們法規修法的要求嘛，對不對？","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:29:29.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:30:11.915000+08:00","text":"但是可能大家就會覺得在族群上是不是可以平衡一下，所以\n我覺得這樣子的修法還是有問題嘛，因為要回歸擔任原民會的主任委員其實就跟各部會首長一\n樣，最重要的是什麼，未必是身分正確。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:30:11.915000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:30:12.915000+08:00","text":"當然這個是很重要的因素，但是我想能力也是不可或\n缺，是大家要去考量的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:30:12.915000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:30:13.915000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得在修法的同時，大家不要忽略了能力這件事情，我剛剛提的也希望大家能夠考量\n進去，大家也學習一下，因為我看我們的主席應該也不知道原來我們山原跟平原的區分當中有\n這麼多族，其實中間還夾帶了那麼一點點，所以這個部分我就做這樣子的提醒，還是希望最好\n是回歸到原住民族有能力的人來擔任首長，我想這個可能是最理想的。","quality":0.028},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:30:12.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:30:53.380000+08:00","text":"再來，今天我坐在這邊，一開始，我第一次看到黃國昌委員這麼溫柔、這麼心平氣和地講話\n，然後我也很感動，因為他說他自己不是原住民，他就覺得他要多聆聽。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:30:53.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:31:05.244000+08:00","text":"我希望他再多聆聽，\n很可惜他走了，我也希望他能夠聽到我講這段話：我希望他在多聆聽的同時，也不要偏聽。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:31:08.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:31:09.865000+08:00","text":"對，他講完就走了。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:31:11.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:31:39.037000+08:00","text":"平常有時候我在議場，我也想走過去跟他聊兩句，因為最近我們也在討論禁伐補償還有很多\n原住民的議題，但是因為曾經我親眼目睹，我們有女同事走去前面，也是很客氣跟他講幾句話\n，忽然他就咆哮起來了，所以我就很怕，我也是想去跟他溝通幾句，但是我又很怕他一咆哮起\n來，口水也是會亂噴。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:31:39.037000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:32:13.951000+08:00","text":"所以他今天講，我就斗膽在這裡也回應一下黃國昌委員在質詢的時候提\n到的，就是族群委員的名單一片綠油油這件事情，甚至在他的 PowerPoint 上面還點名寫上了我\n的名字，說某人是我的服務處的處長之類的，我想我今天也藉著這個機會，我們就這個問題來\n好好討論一下。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:32:14.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:32:33.810000+08:00","text":"首先我要講一下，剛剛我第一次看到原民會這個資料，就是這一份各族的族群委員候選人，\n333\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 94 期 黨團協商紀錄\n還有他的經歷以及推薦人是誰等等。","quality":0.642},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:32:33.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:32:40.196000+08:00","text":"我要跟原民會講，你們這份資料其實真的是不精確，還真\n是不精確！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:32:41.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:32:46.901000+08:00","text":"因為我剛剛看到一個很好笑的事情，我覺得伍麗華委員，你也真倒楣喔！","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:32:48.101000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:33:46.532000+08:00","text":"賽夏族他\n們有民族議會，這幾個候選人有民族議會推薦，還有之前的族群委員推薦，然後但是我看這次\n聘用的是平地原住民嘛，然後裡面當然也有提到我推薦的，這裡面一、兩個我有推薦沒錯，但\n是有一些大家可能到處拜託，那個名單到處飛，我不知道有沒有去哪個委員那邊，可能也去了\n伍麗華那邊，可能也來了我這邊，但是我們接到陳情，禮貌上一定都還要送出去，這是人之常\n情，但是我想我剛剛看到那個，我就覺得很好笑，我說伍麗華，你真倒楣啊，這些全部都算在\n你頭上。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:33:48.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:34:28.143000+08:00","text":"然後再來，我要講一下，其實能力的問題，以前我還真是不知道，因為以前長期國民黨執政\n的年代，我先講我自己好了，因為我被黃國昌委員點名，他點出其中有一位擔任過我服務處的\n處長，我想黃國昌委員的質詢內容也印證了一件事，他不是原住民，他真的還不了解這其中的\n一些細節。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:34:28.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:34:41.772000+08:00","text":"我要講的是，第一個，那一位被他點名的族群委員是主委跟我借將，因為他的經歷\n是怎麼樣？","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:34:43.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:35:09.019000+08:00","text":"大家仔細聽，我要講一下一個族群委員，他在原民會待過 3 年，在縣政府待過 9 年\n，也擔任過地方各級民意代表一直到中央，從地方議員乃至於省議員，還有立法委員的助理。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:35:09.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:35:27.844000+08:00","text":"我想主委需要幫忙，他剛當主委，想借用這位族群委員的經歷，我想這是人之常情，因為人才\n我也是很捨不得，但是主委要借將，那我就借給他嘛。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:35:31.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:35:56.307000+08:00","text":"再來就是，我想這些經歷應該是黃國昌\n委員他沒有好好去掌握的，所以他才會講出什麼酬庸啊，什麼綠油油啊，然後到底這個綠油油\n，我倒是要看一下，我們看一下馬英九執政的那個年代好了……","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:35:57.956000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:36:07.801000+08:00","text":"不好意思，陳瑩委員，現在遇到一個比較麻煩的事情，就是麥委員說他要離開……","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:36:07.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:36:08.022000+08:00","text":"不是啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:36:08.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:36:11.724000+08:00","text":"你們這樣打斷我，他要離開是他的事，今天已經排……","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:36:11.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:36:14.005000+08:00","text":"不是，你先聽我講完嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:36:14.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:36:27.612000+08:00","text":"你先聽我講完，我不是說你不能講，我是說因為我們今天是協調，\n麥委員如果離開了，三黨就變成少一個，依照以前協商……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:36:27.612000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:36:28.813000+08:00","text":"那叫黃國昌回來啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:36:28.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:36:39.920000+08:00","text":"因為之前協商只要三黨有一個不出席的話，就變成這個協商會議不成立了。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:36:40.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:36:41.621000+08:00","text":"不然這樣好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:36:41.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:36:46.384000+08:00","text":"你就讓我講完，麻煩你多坐幾分鐘，我很快就講完，因為我要講重點\n卻被打斷了。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:36:49.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:36:59.071000+08:00","text":"沒問題，我只是跟你提醒一下有這個狀況，因為他們如果一離開，少一個黨，就變成我們今\n天的協商不成立了，我只是要提醒這件事，並不是不讓你講。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:36:59.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:37:02.412000+08:00","text":"由主席決定，那我還是把我的意見講完。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:37:02.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:37:04.593000+08:00","text":"麥委員，可不可以稍微等一下，我們讓陳瑩委員說完？好。","quality":0.591},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:37:08.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:37:14.638000+08:00","text":"好，剛剛伍麗華委員有 Show 出這一張，我直接把它打在 PowerPoint 上，這樣會比較清楚\n。","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:37:17.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:37:20.363000+08:00","text":"當然，這個一 Show 出來就藍吱吱嘛！","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:37:20.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:37:26.370000+08:00","text":"那剛剛還有 Show 的是新竹市那邊的，那個叫什麼？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:37:26.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:37:27.170000+08:00","text":"白\n蒼蒼啊！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:37:28.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:37:31.515000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:37:31.515000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:37:32.515000+08:00","text":"334\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 94 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:37:32.515000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:37:33.515000+08:00","text":"那是市長，所以……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:37:31.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:37:32.436000+08:00","text":"都是一樣啊！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T15:37:32.436000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:37:34.658000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：不一樣啊！","quality":0.176},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:37:34.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:37:35.439000+08:00","text":"都是一樣啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T15:37:35.439000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:37:36.840250+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：代表族群……","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:37:36.840250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:37:38.241500+08:00","text":"不一樣啊！","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:37:38.241500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:37:39.642750+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:37:39.642750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:37:41.044000+08:00","text":"這是市政府……","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:37:41.044000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:37:42.285000+08:00","text":"你們不要插嘴嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:37:43.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:37:45.789000+08:00","text":"叫人家要有禮貌，你自己卻沒禮貌，很奇怪啊！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:37:47.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:37:51.055000+08:00","text":"在你刮別人鬍子之前\n，你先把自己的鬍子刮乾淨，麻煩你閉嘴。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:37:51.055000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:37:53.858333+08:00","text":"就是學你的，你要先閉嘴，我才閉嘴。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:37:53.858333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:37:56.661667+08:00","text":"那你要做好榜樣嘛！","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:37:56.661667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:37:59.465000+08:00","text":"讓我學嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:37:59.465000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:02.268333+08:00","text":"我們讓陳瑩委員發言完畢好不好？","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-06T15:38:02.268333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:05.071667+08:00","text":"為了讓你講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:38:05.071667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:07.875000+08:00","text":"你看啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:38:07.875000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:10.678333+08:00","text":"放到這一張白蒼蒼的表就跳起來，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:38:10.678333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:13.481667+08:00","text":"來，看一下在馬英九執政的時候，\n我就來放……好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T15:38:13.481667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:16.285000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：不是講你喔……哎呀！","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:38:16.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:18.686000+08:00","text":"你們就叫黃國昌委員講嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T15:38:18.686000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:20.506000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：沒有喔！對啦！","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:38:20.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:27.208000+08:00","text":"因為我覺得你要講就自己講……","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:38:27.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:28.068000+08:00","text":"女生講話，男生「惦惦」。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:38:29.308000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:34.790000+08:00","text":"你要講就自己講，不用在這裡好像躲在後面然後叫別人出頭。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:38:34.790000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:35.790000+08:00","text":"就協商不成立嘛！對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:38:35.790000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:36.790000+08:00","text":"反正大家看一下嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:38:36.790000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:37.790000+08:00","text":"一樣啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:38:37.790000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:38.790000+08:00","text":"我剛剛講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:38:37.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:37.410000+08:00","text":"主席，對不起喔……","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:38:37.410000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:38.737286+08:00","text":"不要打斷我，可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:38:38.737286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:40.064571+08:00","text":"我們今天不是在審族群委員，審族群委員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:38:40.064571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:41.391857+08:00","text":"不要打斷我，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:38:41.391857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:42.719143+08:00","text":"你們都可以講，為什麼我們就不能講？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:38:42.719143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:44.046429+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:38:44.046429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:45.373714+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:38:45.373714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:46.701000+08:00","text":"審族群委員是原民會的事情，我們現在是針對制度、針對法條，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:38:46.701000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:48.028286+08:00","text":"主席，你這樣子太不……要公平嘛！","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:38:48.028286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:49.355571+08:00","text":"今天是協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:38:49.355571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:50.682857+08:00","text":"那協商還是要把話講完啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:38:50.682857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:52.010143+08:00","text":"針對制度。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:38:52.010143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:53.337429+08:00","text":"335\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 94 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:38:53.337429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:54.664714+08:00","text":"陳瑩委員，所以我一直希望大家好好談，因為他們如果一離席，我們今天會議就沒有了啊！","quality":0.028},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:38:54.664714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:55.992000+08:00","text":"沒有，就看一下嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:38:55.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:56.572000+08:00","text":"鄭天財委員的助理一樣擔任過，是鄭天財委員的助理……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T15:38:56.572000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:57.572000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：不是我的助理！不是？","quality":0.095},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:38:56.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:38:59.053000+08:00","text":"人家穿著你的背心，難道他是冒牌的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T15:38:59.053000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:39:01.281417+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：他是後來卸任之後……","quality":0.095},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:39:01.281417+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:39:03.509833+08:00","text":"他是冒牌的嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:39:03.509833+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:39:05.738250+08:00","text":"你現在跟他切割，我不會切割，我不像你，我不會切割，有事你就切割\n！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:39:05.738250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:39:07.966667+08:00","text":"他就是切割啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T15:39:07.966667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:39:10.195083+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：他沒有當過我的……","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:39:10.195083+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:39:12.423500+08:00","text":"主席，我們不要在這邊吵架好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:39:12.423500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:39:14.651917+08:00","text":"他就是切割啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:39:14.651917+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:39:16.880333+08:00","text":"今天是針對……好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:39:16.880333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:39:19.108750+08:00","text":"鄭天財不要講話啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:39:19.108750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:39:21.337167+08:00","text":"像我以前的助理，他也離職了，而且是主委借將，那你那個是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:39:21.337167+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:39:23.565583+08:00","text":"人家穿著那個背心\n……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:39:23.565583+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:39:25.794000+08:00","text":"不要吵架好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:39:25.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:39:58.359000+08:00","text":"我現在講，我很尊重那一位議員，他人非常 nice，他也非常的虔誠，我對他一點意見都\n沒有，你們全部過去那麼多人……","quality":0.438},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T15:39:58.359000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:00.906000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：我沒有提過，我都沒有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:00.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:03.488000+08:00","text":"那麼多人擔任，到底是誰推薦的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:04.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:05.850000+08:00","text":"也有孔文吉委員的……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:05.850000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:06.850000+08:00","text":"我們可不可以就事論事、就法條來討論？如果……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:06.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:10.053000+08:00","text":"本來就是就事論事，你們可以點名，為什麼我們就不能點名？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:10.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:10.853000+08:00","text":"很奇怪耶！","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:11.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:12.595000+08:00","text":"不是，我們現在已經離題了，我們就是針對這兩條……","quality":0.55},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:12.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:13.595000+08:00","text":"哪有什麼離題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:13.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:13.896000+08:00","text":"就是在這邊講啊！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:14.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:14.156000+08:00","text":"看對這兩條有沒有共識，很簡單，對這兩條有沒有共識……","quality":0.364},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:14.156000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:14.276000+08:00","text":"是誰先帶頭離題的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:14.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:14.416000+08:00","text":"是誰先離題的？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:14.416000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:15.416000+08:00","text":"有需要拍桌子嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:15.416000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:16.416000+08:00","text":"不需要吵架吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:14.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:15.797000+08:00","text":"沒有共識的話，就送院長協商。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:15.797000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:15.817000+08:00","text":"是誰先離題的？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:16.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:16.417000+08:00","text":"沒有共識……好啦！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:16.417000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:18.634589+08:00","text":"我們今天不是在審族群委員。","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:18.634589+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:20.852179+08:00","text":"翁委員，讓他講完啦！","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:20.852179+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:23.069768+08:00","text":"等一下一定沒有共識的，讓他講完。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:23.069768+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:25.287357+08:00","text":"就算沒有共識，也可以發表意見嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:25.287357+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:27.504946+08:00","text":"那你們一直在插話幹什麼啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:27.504946+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:29.722536+08:00","text":"我們沒有插話……\n336\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 94 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:29.722536+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:31.940125+08:00","text":"就是啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:31.940125+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:34.157714+08:00","text":"你在那裡講一些……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:34.157714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:36.375304+08:00","text":"你們每個人都全部講完，為什麼我講到一半就要一直被插話啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:36.375304+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:38.592893+08:00","text":"因為今天是協商，這樣吵一吵，如果有人不高興然後走了，我們今天的協商會議就談不下去\n了，所以我一直希望大家能夠好好的談，對不對？","quality":0.018},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:38.592893+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:40.810482+08:00","text":"對，尤其你也已經談很久了吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:40.810482+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:43.028071+08:00","text":"很多次了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:43.028071+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:45.245661+08:00","text":"我哪有很多次？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:45.245661+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:47.463250+08:00","text":"我第一次發言，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:47.463250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:49.680839+08:00","text":"對，可是時間也很長了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:49.680839+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:51.898429+08:00","text":"我們可不可以回到法條，好嗎？","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:51.898429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:54.116018+08:00","text":"等一下，你的同事其他人講很久都沒關係，高金講很久都沒關係！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:54.116018+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:56.333607+08:00","text":"我們現在在講的就是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:56.333607+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:40:58.551196+08:00","text":"報告主席，我們是不是可以回到法條和制度，不要針對，我們也沒有針對、在審查\n族群委員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:40:58.551196+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:41:00.768786+08:00","text":"你已經點名那麼多，你還說沒針對！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:41:00.768786+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:41:02.986375+08:00","text":"你從頭到尾都在針對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:41:02.986375+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:41:05.203964+08:00","text":"我們是把原民會的資料拿出來講，我沒有講某個人，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:41:05.203964+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:41:07.421554+08:00","text":"你沒有？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:41:07.421554+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:41:09.639143+08:00","text":"你最有啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:41:09.639143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:41:11.856732+08:00","text":"你都躲在後面啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:41:11.856732+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:41:14.074321+08:00","text":"我們是按照……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:41:14.074321+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:41:16.291911+08:00","text":"就叫黃國昌委員出來講嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-06T15:41:16.291911+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:41:18.509500+08:00","text":"我們希望原民會把制度改一改。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:41:18.509500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:41:20.727089+08:00","text":"主席，我們現在可不可以……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:41:20.727089+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:41:22.944679+08:00","text":"那是誰喔？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:41:22.944679+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:41:25.162268+08:00","text":"那是誰嘛！好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:41:25.162268+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:41:27.379857+08:00","text":"秩序啦!秩序！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:41:27.379857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:41:29.597446+08:00","text":"不要吼啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:41:29.597446+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:41:31.815036+08:00","text":"主席，我建議讓那個發言的把它完整講完，沒有共\n識就沒共識，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:41:31.815036+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:41:34.032625+08:00","text":"男生「惦惦」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:41:34.032625+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:41:36.250214+08:00","text":"就提案啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:41:36.250214+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:41:38.467804+08:00","text":"絕對不是……你就有提案哪！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:41:38.467804+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:41:40.685393+08:00","text":"那一天那個卑南族的族群委員，他是誰？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:41:40.685393+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:41:42.902982+08:00","text":"他是阿忠的表哥。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:41:42.902982+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:41:45.120571+08:00","text":"不是啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:41:45.120571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:41:47.338161+08:00","text":"那我們是不是說現在不要……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:41:47.338161+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:41:49.555750+08:00","text":"阿忠是誰？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:41:49.555750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:41:51.773339+08:00","text":"你旁邊那一位的誰？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:41:51.773339+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:41:53.990929+08:00","text":"我跟你講，第四條引發那麼多事，那是不是陳瑩委員趕快發言、談完，如果真的沒有共識，\n我們……","quality":0.135},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:41:53.990929+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:41:56.208518+08:00","text":"程序問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:41:56.208518+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:41:58.426107+08:00","text":"召委，我良心建議，好不好？是。","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:41:58.426107+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:42:00.643696+08:00","text":"337\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 94 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:42:00.643696+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:42:02.861286+08:00","text":"我們良心建議，男性今天本來就沒角色的，擇期、擇期啦！","quality":0.045},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:42:02.861286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:42:05.078875+08:00","text":"看你的心情擇期。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:42:05.078875+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:42:07.296464+08:00","text":"沒有擇期，我們要送！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:42:07.296464+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:42:09.514054+08:00","text":"好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:42:09.514054+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:42:11.731643+08:00","text":"基本上黨團沒有共識，就送院長協商了，不要再延期。","quality":0.048},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:42:11.731643+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:42:13.949232+08:00","text":"也不一定要直接送啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:42:13.949232+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:42:16.166821+08:00","text":"也不一定要直接送！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:42:16.166821+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:42:18.384411+08:00","text":"不一定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:42:18.384411+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:42:20.602000+08:00","text":"因為這個很清楚……","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:42:20.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:42:21.563000+08:00","text":"翁委員，不一定啦！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:42:21.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:42:23.146000+08:00","text":"我們就按照程序，那……","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:42:23.326000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:42:24.208000+08:00","text":"看召委，你看怎麼樣？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:42:24.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:42:28.474000+08:00","text":"莊委員，你要擇期的話，也必須其他兩黨都同意。對。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:42:29.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:42:34.824000+08:00","text":"現在就是莊委員有這樣的提案，不知道民眾黨和國民黨這邊是否同意？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:42:34.824000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:42:37.049000+08:00","text":"擇期協商了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:42:37.049000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:42:39.274000+08:00","text":"就給院長協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:42:39.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:42:45.298000+08:00","text":"對，因為這個要他們兩邊同意，那就看大家的意思。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:42:45.298000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:42:46.519000+08:00","text":"給院長擇期協商、送院長協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:42:46.519000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:42:47.740000+08:00","text":"其實協商不只一次。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:42:47.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:42:49.081000+08:00","text":"我再補充一件事，不好意思。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:42:50.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:42:51.823000+08:00","text":"重要資訊。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:42:51.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:42:59.088000+08:00","text":"潘禎祥代表、前代表，他是您的支持者，我也曾經推薦過他，我們都有這種大度。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:42:59.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:43:05.533000+08:00","text":"在民\n進黨執政的時代我推薦了他，但是他拒絕，因為他說民進黨執政他不要做。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:43:07.252000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:43:07.532000+08:00","text":"是這樣子耶！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:43:07.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:43:08.893000+08:00","text":"有這種事，你可以去問他。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:43:09.633000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:43:11.374000+08:00","text":"跟條文沒有關係，我們今天不是在……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:43:11.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:43:11.574000+08:00","text":"不是啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:43:11.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:43:15.015000+08:00","text":"但是他們提這個法案的時候……","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:43:15.015000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:43:16.015000+08:00","text":"不是在講民權制度的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:43:15.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:43:17.516000+08:00","text":"他們提這個法案的時候……","quality":1},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T15:43:17.516000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:43:18.977000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：我從來沒有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:43:18.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:43:21.778000+08:00","text":"那就看照片，大家看那個名單和照片。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:43:21.778000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:43:22.818333+08:00","text":"我想我們還是回到制度面啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T15:43:22.818333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:43:23.858667+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：……都沒有談到政黨。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-06T15:43:23.858667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:43:24.899000+08:00","text":"338\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 94 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:43:24.899000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:43:26.260000+08:00","text":"看名單和照片就知道。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:43:26.260000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:43:29.241000+08:00","text":"黨團的共識。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:43:29.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:43:31.061000+08:00","text":"主席，我剛講那個是很中性的。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:43:35.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:43:43.225000+08:00","text":"我講一下，所謂的擇期，也沒有誰同不同意的問題，就是送給院長，院長有可能交付\n你再重新協商，那都不一定，好不好？好啦！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:43:43.225000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:43:45.826000+08:00","text":"沒關係，就送給院長協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:43:45.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:43:45.826000+08:00","text":"好，這樣啦！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:43:46.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:43:51.028000+08:00","text":"莊委員，因為大家今天的討論是沒有共識嘛！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:43:52.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:43:56.730000+08:00","text":"我們都沒有制止誰，讓大家充分\n表達，也已經快兩個小時了。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:43:57.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:44:01.391000+08:00","text":"是不是說因為各黨團的意見是不一致的，那我們就……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:44:02.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:44:02.932000+08:00","text":"對，就是到我們這邊的時候一直插話！","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-11-06T15:44:05.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:44:05.318000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-11-06T15:44:05.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:44:09.159000+08:00","text":"就是到我這邊一直斷掉、一直插話，很煩！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:44:09.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:44:23.961000+08:00","text":"因為我們今天發言的內容都有錄音、錄影，列入紀錄，我們還是需要繼續溝通取得共識，那\n是不是我們就依據立法院職權行使法第十二章的規定辦理，好不好？好。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:44:25.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:44:28.242000+08:00","text":"對，就是讓院長去召開，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:44:28.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:44:32.123000+08:00","text":"好，那今天就這樣，不好意思，因為一個半小時了，大家\n沒有共識。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:44:32.123000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:44:34.603000+08:00","text":"這個不需要大家同意的啦……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:44:34.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-06T15:44:37.752000+08:00","text":"對，好，謝謝各位，那就散會。謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-11-06T15:44:38.252000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:44:40.537714+08:00","text":"就送院長協商嘛！對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-06T15:44:40.837714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-06T15:44:41.980571+08:00","text":"散會（15 時 44 分）","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}