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這個黃圈圈這一塊啊這個土 山都被鏟平了已經放了 那個就是光光電板 都已經潑上去了另外裸露的這個地區紅色圈起來 綠色圈起來整個那個拖鞋的 那個本來就是山整個山坡地被鏟平了往前 你有看到這裡住這麼多居民嗎 現在居民要陳情那你 或是你的親友 你覺得住在那裡嗎"},{"start":118.24,"end":143.042,"text":"部長 如果是你 後你的親友現在住在那邊你敢不敢住 安全嗎從這張圖來判斷說 現在這裡的房子的安全性啊保定 這個媒體已經大肆的報導了民眾都來陳情了欸 你本來小林村那個妹村事件 土石流"},{"start":145.084,"end":164.293,"text":"這高雄的大樹區耶第二個現在極端的氣候都是那個暴雨雨就下的都很大對不對突然就來啊結果怎麼會把一座山挖掉這座山坡地很多都是參過30%的我們明定是30%以上的躲的這個山坡地是建築開發的耶"},{"start":166.614,"end":192.629,"text":"我跟委員報告齁30公頃以上必須去委會來做環評審查嘛那開發還要開發許可那相對的我們同仁跟我講的就是說這一頁它的整個環評的部分水保計畫是已經被開罰嗎已經被開罰了非常多次啊五次開罰這麼多次然後又危險那為什麼不把它停下來捏阿紅台聽要來了捏不定"},{"start":196.472,"end":203.748,"text":"這個市政府的權責不是農業部可以處理的啊現在有三個主管機關嘛對不對水土保持是你們管的嘛"},{"start":205.168,"end":230.414,"text":"水土保持 計畫的審查 渡島隊 但是也是市政府在執行市政府當然 高雄市也是一個主管機關 所以高雄市政府開罰嘛 對不對它有兩種罰 一種是罰錢啊 一種就是這麼危險 東京直接停了來啊停的部分是地方政府地方政府跟你都是主管機關啊 你當初合的嘛 那它現在有危險性不是我們合的喔 地方政府合的喔"},{"start":231.142,"end":253.35,"text":"水土保存是你們合的嗎?沒有,它整個開發案是地方政府合的啊整個合,地方政府合,水土保存你們不用管嗎?沒有,你們來說明一下吧因為我覺得這個是要非常明確全責的單位啦如果說農業部必須要處理的,我們就要盡到我們農業部的責任如果不是農業部能處理的,我們也不能說在這邊隨便承諾要出管機關嘛,對不對?經濟部嘛"},{"start":256.191,"end":268.236,"text":"經濟部當然他們負責一部分嘛開發那一塊你們水土保持嘛甚至他現在沒有發現他已經月期去開發破壞的水土保持你們當然要做啊另外一個是地方政府是不是這樣"},{"start":269.805,"end":289.265,"text":"對 它所有的最後的核定都是地方政府不管你是水保三開計畫最後的核定都是地方政府我們是督導我們是法規的部分最後的審查跟核定是水保計畫還有執行都是地方政府所以你們督導到哪裡去了"},{"start":290.216,"end":304.265,"text":"你們都不用負責任嗎我們針對我們針對相關的法規的規定啊那如果說有很明確的那個我們可以跟地方政府 因為地方政府是核定人命關天不要推責任第一你的獨立 因為我的個性我不會推責任我們共同解決問題嘛第一個你有督導這個責任嘛對不對因為你現在已經發現問題了是不是要共同解決問題"},{"start":313.403,"end":341.217,"text":"我想如果他是一個問題的話我覺得我們應該有跟地方政府溝通的一個責任希望他們能夠去落實依法去處理這個我想我們一定會做到馬上就去溝通好不好來我們看一看危險性到哪邊來來看看這個問題當然出在中央跟地方都有狀況來你看看這麼大一個山51公頃他現在做供電板高達46"},{"start":344.002,"end":369.062,"text":"他一年營收可以有四億兩千萬我們政府在推光電的時候你們注意到人民的財產生命安全你們生態保護的這個問題還是你們重視的只是光電業者的利益呢當有衝突的時候當然立即趕快去處理啊你看這個多危險紅色圈圈現在是暗場所在的TG區紅色的你看"},{"start":370.444,"end":395.095,"text":"左邊這個地方是斷層地質敏感地帶離那個暗場大概只有不到5公里這麼近喔另外綠色這個線第三個畫過來了這個紅圈圈這個地方土壤異化高潛勢區欸另外還有個順向坡右下角這個粉紅色的歷年來已經發生過好幾次山坡地的災害的位置了"},{"start":396.693,"end":417.447,"text":"這個地區這麼嚴重 結果以前已經有多次的這個受害了結果你把山挖山砍平 把樹砍掉這是政府跟農業部跟經濟部在推這個光電的原意嗎當人民的財產生命安全受到影響 生態受到影響的時候"},{"start":419.652,"end":447.492,"text":"光電業者的利益那麼重要嗎我跟委員報告所有的光電的開發案或其他的開發案的話我想政府有一定的相關的審查的遊戲規則跟審查的基準那不管是在斷能地區所提到的或是高風險區的部分他的審查的條件會更嚴苛所以當他業者沒有照這個方式去處理的話就會所謂的剛才說的所謂的開罰的部分然後開罰到某個程度不行的話可能就會"},{"start":448.533,"end":465.779,"text":"廢紙嘛那這個部分我剛才說了如果是地方政府的權責我們會盡量去跟地方政府溝通但是相關的審查本身它有一定的標準而不是說我們為了光電的利益而去犧牲掉我們人民的安全這個我想我們絕對不會做正事"},{"start":466.959,"end":489.882,"text":"就是速度要快 我剛剛講兩個 第一個要講如果鬧出人命不是只有財產受到影響 鬧出人命就有刑者的問題嘛對不對 這就是一關的喔 要看起來喔第二個更重要怎麼講 訪台廳已經來了嘛現在大家已經注意到這個問題 趕快解決問題啊來 你現在一直在說隔容期 高雄市陳其邁讓人家負責任嘛他暖男市長啊 有心急的"},{"start":491.204,"end":518.918,"text":"結果前陣子已經發生那個清達電廠3號機跟4號機沒有許可沒有許可的狀況之下開始燒煤炭大家已經去追他的責任啊這一個也是人命關天的啊他當然要負起責任啊他如果解決民調才會高嘛如果出入民調當然會掉下來嘛一樣啊中央部會從經濟部跟經濟部會追農業部長我們負起責任嘛來看一下你們這次嘛水土保持法第19條"},{"start":521.067,"end":545.961,"text":"這你管的嘛 對不對所以趕快跟地方好好去討論那個地方啊有那個南河岩那邊有一個南河岩水土保持這些都想你管的這裡沒有化為特定的水土保持區域所以就沒有所謂的禁止開發的行為所以當初那個水土保持完全都通過嗎 沒有任何問題嗎"},{"start":547.148,"end":552.61,"text":"沒有,我不要強調這個審查我剛才說的,所謂的審查我們一定有一定的遊戲規則而且審查也不是一個人來決定它是一個召集相關的委員會去處理的啦所以"},{"start":562.616,"end":582.191,"text":"我現在不確定這個案子本身是不是如同你說的因為我沒有辦法從照片裡面畫出來的東西說說它是安全或是危險這我沒有辦法確認我會去確認說我也不會說因為媒體報導它危險就認定它危險我們一定會去更詳細的了解這個案子本身"},{"start":582.932,"end":606.249,"text":"他的用專業的角度去看說他是不是真的是落實危險如果是危險的話我們一定會第一時間跟縣市政府請他們提醒他們去做相關的事情部長我們跟時間下來人命歡天好來那我們解決問題來所以請農業部在一個禮拜內提出來你們當初怎麼核准這個案的開發的申請文件跟核准的資料"},{"start":607.333,"end":635.383,"text":"還有相關的這個時間點可以嗎這是地方政府我剛才說的是地方政府核准的啊不是我們關於你們這個你們農業部當初完全沒有沒有參與嗎我們只有在農地沒有你們沒有角色呢當然也有經過你們啊農業部就廢掉了這麼重大的事情怎麼可能也經過你們沒有我們可以表示意見但是我剛才講的決定權核准權是在內政部的區委會"},{"start":636.806,"end":646.203,"text":"不是農業部合或不合我們是在處理農地變更那農地變更本身如果區委會同意的時候我們才進行農地變更這樣子"},{"start":647.435,"end":674.072,"text":"你們是督導嘛 你剛才說要隨機高雄市政府聯絡嘛 對不對對 我們會來協調 但是我剛才說的我們不是全責單位 我們沒辦法直接介入至少對你的全責督導那部分來你兩座內 請高雄市政府把那個 還有你農業部當初怎麼核准的水保計畫我好說的 我們沒有核准嘛怎麼一直叫我們拿核准的文件 我們沒有核准啊所以你們完全在水保計畫這塊完全不負責任嗎所以我請我們的法治好不好"},{"start":678.188,"end":704.153,"text":"我們一定的規則不是說規則當然有督導啦有參與啊怎麼可能農業部就廢掉了不是嗎委員報告一下水保計畫的核定在水保法裡面有明定的很清楚原則上都是直轄市縣市政府的核准除了中央興建的工程才是我們農業部來核准所以水保計畫的核定就是有民間開發的都是由地方政府來做核准"},{"start":705.313,"end":729.955,"text":"要跟您做個說明所以這個案子的開發案他一定要擬水保計畫他不是19條的特定水保禁止開發他是個開發案是內政部核准的開發案那在開發的當時一定會開挖整地那只要在山坡地做開挖整地依水保法12條的規定就要擬水保計畫報經地方政府做核定"},{"start":730.896,"end":743.966,"text":"核定完以後依照水保計畫來做實施並監督跟委員報告所以你們現在所以到底農業部的角色是什麼除了你剛剛講的督導要去國中之外呢"},{"start":745.666,"end":774.774,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們中央在水保法裡面的角色除了剛剛講說中央的工程是我們核水保計畫我們還是法規的主管機關法規那我們水保計或者水保我們有助監督剛剛我們的主秘也說得很清楚是說監督所以地方如果有一些執行不是很妥適的我們會來了解那在這個案子就我們所知地方政府有做裁罰他有用水保法去做裁罰也勒令停工了"},{"start":775.174,"end":800.106,"text":"所以水保法該做的裁罰地方政府都做了所以站在我們督導主管機關的立場他不是我們可以去做了解他不是不裁罰他如果不裁罰我中央當然要介入那現在目前來講他已經有裁罰勒令停工你們先盡你們督導的這個責任對不對包含你剛剛講法規有沒有被誤解這個地方第二個你剛剛講裁罰就是民眾跟媒體現在為什麼跳起來"},{"start":802.059,"end":803.28,"text":"台水剛來的消息沒有"},{"start":821.601,"end":836.294,"text":"他那個地是台水的沒關係你去查清楚現在不要各說各話因為我的這邊的消息來源是台水來的我要執行你執行我特別去問好不好那沒有的話就要熱令他天公趕快把安全做好尤其是訪台聽這段時間"},{"start":837.535,"end":863.176,"text":"我剛才說的齁 這個詳情我們會跟高雄市政府去了解然後高雄市政府如果依法已經做了一些決定或停工的話他也是依水保計畫相關的處罰嘛那就結了嘛 就跟農業部是沒有特別的關係嘛對對 東田你一看也沒有停工嘛 現在台水那邊消息就沒有那有 沒有的話就趕快去處理這件事情 好不好那另外做一些比較整體的 保定 做一個比較整體的山坡地 我們剛才說過山坡地"},{"start":864.181,"end":879.555,"text":"整個生態的這個問題 安全問題嘛你是不是能夠一個月內比較完整針對國內山坡地跟開發重電的光電這個問題做一個檢討跟報告出來你的生態保護啊 你的山坡地的保護啊這個題目好大"},{"start":882.67,"end":900.103,"text":"這個題目很大那現在出現這種地方蠻多的啦你有發現台灣現在有一個要種田啦沒有第一個你的漁電共生一些漁溫已經被犧牲了對不對那一些農地一部分現在連山坡地都開始砍樹挖山因為山坡地本身的界定齁"},{"start":901.184,"end":921.896,"text":"他跟他的那個楊蔣是有關的那山坡地本身能夠讓他開發光電或其他的開發工程的話一定是經過審查的一定都是個案審查的那你要告我你要我說把全台灣的山坡地的這些光電的這些政策跟立場這個沒辦法沒辦法沒辦法說明的因為他都是個案在處理的"},{"start":922.401,"end":943.042,"text":"部長就是這個案子出問題嘛所以你說高雄市政府開始裁罰嘛對不對 是啊我現在是說他要熱令停工或是要停嘛不能只有罰錢嘛那你是多少單位你要進去這是第一個第一個是個案嘛第二個我現在就是前面我第二個我是要跟你講就是說有沒有類似的個案是有危險性的你先去清一遍嘛我剛剛已經講了喔這有刑責問題喔如果你的山坡地這樣開發出問題"},{"start":944.807,"end":953.423,"text":"那主管機關 要不要把他扣起來這個有刑責問題喔不要說於心何人啦人民的財產生命安全這如果鬧出人命怎麼辦"},{"start":954.676,"end":979.655,"text":"是不是 於心不安的同時還有刑責啊沒有 所有的開發都有開發許可嘛啊就是開發出了問題所以才要你去查嘛那如果去查沒有問題當然就沒事啊那就是地方政府的問題啊內政部本身部長你怎麼一直把責任推給地方政府地方要負一部分責任中央你剛剛講你要督導你要去解釋對不對現在包括有高雄的地方在那在那看民進黨立委會不會上來要求要做這件事情"},{"start":980.576,"end":1001.691,"text":"這部分黨派人民的生命財產安全中央跟地方本來就是分工的啊沒有農業部的職權我可以介入處理的我一定介入處理我可以溝通了解的我一定溝通了解嘛趕快去溝通這是跨部會的問題沒有沒有我最後只要一個東西我定不定我最後只要這個東西針對國內的山坡地特別是開發去種田是光電的到底安不安全"},{"start":1002.512,"end":1012.951,"text":"你去清一下好不好有發生像這樣的事情我可以了解說現在的山坡地裡面有多少的光電暗場那到底安不安全絕對我沒辦法去判斷"},{"start":1014.854,"end":1036.302,"text":"就是先去看安不安全嘛 對不對沒有 我沒有辦法判斷它安不安全因為它如果被許可的話就是一個安全的那我可以在一個月之內去調所有的山坡地有水保計畫有光電暗場的資料這個可以處理但是要我去判斷說它安不安全這個我沒辦法做到那你就全部 一個一個先調出來好不好我做一個簡單總結 保定保定"},{"start":1039.537,"end":1065.35,"text":"我們是支持要發展綠電的可是光電發展到現在我已經問過你好幾次了餘電共生你看看多少餘溫多少農民的生活都受到影響了這是第一類所以我上次就說我知道你們壓力可能很大啦一方面要充分供電一方面講那些業者你們壓力大火可是你們要多站在人民的立場農民的立場人民的財產安全的立場"},{"start":1066.972,"end":1086.972,"text":"來 我最後說一個總結 你看八十幾年的時候啊 台灣一直在推BOT那時候有一部電影很有名叫《海角7號》它裡面這樣講土地也要BOT山也要BOT連我們面對的大海都要BOT它是我們台灣的海這麼漂亮可是我們自己都看不到"},{"start":1087.93,"end":1107.04,"text":"那是要諷刺我們VOT 氾濫又出了一堆問題我們現在光電也出了一堆問題這樣倒下去連山坡地都產平了台灣還剩下什麼所以政府有責任啊你在光電推動的時候光電業者的利益不能夠侵犯到我們人民的財產和生命安全嘛"},{"start":1108.307,"end":1117.929,"text":"這一定的啊我今天一整個質詢從前幾天問你的漁電共生到今天山坡地被鏟平樹被砍掉這是我們台灣人民要的嗎"},{"start":1119.517,"end":1142.992,"text":"這是政府一開始要推動光電藥的嘛 出問題要解決問題如果他申請剛出過了但是他後續沒有依照水保計畫去執行就會開罰嘛所以這個部分我想我們會來做啦在整個申請過程當然有法律的依據啦可是老實講很多申請案子過了以後一出現一堆弊案嘛所以才需要事後好好去追嘛現在媒體為什麼報導這麼大 民眾一直在陳情嘛我們不能解決問題啦"},{"start":1144.332,"end":1159.323,"text":"都站在人民的立場,特別幫人民解決財產跟生命安全,恭喜大家我今天提出的指示很重要喔,紅台聽來喔如果因為我今天,我已經提醒大家了出了問題,不是只有良心不安這有刑事責任,人會抓去關,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":276,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時50分）請陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們今天要來搶救人命，要談一個很怵目驚心、嚇人的光電開發案，尤其現在颱風天要來了，不要造成小林村土石流滅村事件重演，我們要非常嚴肅地看待。這個有媒體報導、也有民眾來陳情，是非常有急迫性的問題，我們共同來解決。這個案子是發生在高雄市大樹區，占51公頃的陡峭山坡地竟然被鏟平了、樹被砍掉了。部長，你看這是現場的圖，右邊黃圈圈這一塊，山都被鏟平了，光電板都已經鋪上去了；另外，紅色跟綠色圈起來土色裸露的地區，那個本來就是山，整個山坡地被鏟平了，部長，你有看到這裡住這麼多的居民嗎？現在居民來陳情，如果是你的親友，敢住在那裡嗎？部長，如果是你或你的親友，現在住在那邊，你敢不敢住？安全嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：從這張圖來判斷這裡的房子現在的安全性啊？"],["張委員啓楷：部長，媒體已經大肆報導了、民眾都來陳情了，上次小林村土石流滅村事件也是在高雄，這是高雄的大樹區；第二個，現在極端氣候都是暴雨，雨下得都很大，大雨突然就來，結果怎麼會把一座山挖掉？這座山坡地很多都是明定陡度超過30%的山坡地，是禁止開發的。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，30公頃以上必須由區委會來做環評審查，還要經過開發許可，相對的，我們同仁跟我講的，就是整個環評部分、水保計畫已經被開罰非常多次，5次……"],["張委員啓楷：開罰這麼多次又危險，為什麼不把它停下來呢？部長，颱風天要來了！"],["陳部長駿季：這是市政府的權責，不是農業部可以處理的。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，現在有3個主管機關，水土保持是你們管的嘛？對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：水土保持計畫的審查、督導，但是……"],["張委員啓楷：計畫審查一開始也是你們啊！"],["陳部長駿季：但是也是市政府在執行。"],["張委員啓楷：當然高雄市政府也是主管機關，所以高雄市政府開罰，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：它有兩種罰則，一種是罰錢；一種是這麼危險的狀況，當然就要停了啊！"],["陳部長駿季：停工的部分是地方政府的權責。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，地方政府跟農業部都是主管機關，你當初核的，它現在有危險性……"],["陳部長駿季：不是我們核的，是地方政府核的。"],["張委員啓楷：水土保持是你們核的，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，整個開發案是地方政府核的。"],["張委員啓楷：地方政府核的，水土保持你們不用管嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，因為我覺得單位權責要非常明確劃分，如果是農業部必須要處理的，我們就要盡到農業部的責任；如果不是農業部能處理的，我們也不能在這邊隨便承諾。"],["張委員啓楷：3個主管機關。經濟部當然負責開發的一部分，你們負責水土保持，甚至現在發現它已經越區開發破壞水土保持，你當然要管啊！另外一個是地方政府，是不是這樣？你們現在沒有責任嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，所有最後的核定都是地方政府，不管是水保、山開計畫，最後核定都是地方政府。"],["張委員啓楷：對，但你們就是水土保持的主管機關，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們是督導，我們是法規的部分，最後水保計畫的審查、核定還有執行，都是地方政府。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你們督導到哪裡去了？你們都不用負責任嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們是針對相關法規的規定，如果有很明確的……我們可以跟地方政府溝通，因為地方政府是核定的單位。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，人命關天，不要推責任，你的督導……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，以我的個性，我不會推責任。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們共同解決問題。第一個，你有督導的責任；第二個，現在已經發現問題了，是不是要共同解決問題？"],["陳部長駿季：如果它是一個問題，我覺得我們應該有跟地方政府溝通的責任，希望他們能夠依法落實去處理，這個我們一定會做到。"],["張委員啓楷：馬上再去溝通，好不好？來，我們看一下危險性到哪邊？這個問題當然出在中央跟地方都有狀況，你看看這麼大一個山，占51公頃，現在做光電板高達46公頃，一年營收可以有4億2,000萬。政府在推光電的時候，有沒有注意到人民的財產、生命安全？有沒有生態保護的問題？還是你們重視的，只是光電業者的利益呢？當有衝突的時候，當然要立即、趕快去處理，你看這多危險，紅色圈圈是現在案場所在地，你看左邊這個地方是斷層地質敏感地帶，離案場只有不到5公里，這麼近；另外，綠色這個線，第三個畫過來的紅圈圈，這個地方是土壤液化高潛勢區，還有個順向坡；右下角這個粉紅色的，是歷年來已經發生過好幾次山坡地災害的位置了。這個地區這麼嚴重，以前已經有多次受害了，結果把山鏟平、把樹砍掉，這是政府，農業部跟經濟部在推光電的原意嗎？當人民的財產生命安全受到影響、生態受到影響的時候，光電業者的利益那麼重要嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，所有的光電開發案或其他開發案，政府審查有一定的遊戲規則跟基準，不管是所提到的斷層地區或高風險區，它的審查條件會更嚴苛，所以當業者沒有照這個方式去處理的話，就會有剛剛說所謂開罰的部分，然後開罰到某個程度不行的話，可能就會廢止。這個部分我剛剛說了，如果是地方政府的權責，我們會儘量去跟地方政府溝通，但是相關的審查本身有一定的標準，不是為了光電的利益，而去犧牲掉人民的安全，我們絕對不會做這件事。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，就是速度要快。我剛剛講兩個，第一個老實講，如果鬧出人命，不是只有財產受到影響，鬧出人命就有刑責的問題，這要捉去關起來；第二個，更重要的是颱風已經要來了，現在大家已經注意到這個問題，就趕快去解決問題。你現在一直在說高雄市，高雄市長陳其邁當然要負責任，他是暖男市長，5星級的！結果前陣子已經發生興達電廠3號機跟4號機在沒有許可的狀況之下，開始燒煤炭，大家已經去追他的責任。這一個也是人命關天，他當然要負起責任，他如果解決，民調才會高；如果出問題，民調當然會掉下來。中央部會一樣，經濟部會去追，農業部當然要負起責任，看一下你們的責任，水土保持法第十九條是農業部管的，對不對？所以趕快跟地方政府好好討論，那個地方有個攔河堰，水土保持都屬於你們管的。"],["陳部長駿季：這裡沒有劃為特定水土保持區域，所以就沒有所謂禁止開發的行為。"],["張委員啓楷：所以當初水土保持審查完全都通過嗎？沒有任何問題嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我沒有參加這個審查……"],["張委員啓楷：這個地方這麼危險，你們水土保持完全都沒有……"],["陳部長駿季：我剛剛說所有的審查有一定的遊戲規則，而且審查也不是一個人決定，是召集相關的委員會去處理。我現在不確定這個案子本身是不是如同你說的，因為我沒有辦法從照片裡面畫出來的東西判斷是安全或危險，這我沒有辦法確認，我會後會去確認。我也不會因為媒體報導它危險，就認定它是危險的，我們一定會更詳細地了解這個案子本身，用專業的角度去看它是不是真的危險，如果是危險的話，我們第一時間一定會提醒縣市政府去做相關的事情。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們跟時間賽跑，人命關天。我們來解決問題，請農業部在一個禮拜內提出來，你們當初怎麼核准這個開發案的申請文件跟核准的資料，還有相關的時間點，可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我剛剛說這是地方政府核准的，不是我們。"],["張委員啓楷：農業部當初完全沒有參與嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們只有在農地變更的部分。"],["張委員啓楷：怎麼可能沒有你們的角色呢？當然也有經過你們，這樣農業部就廢掉了，這麼重大的事情怎麼可能沒有經過你們？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們可以表示意見，但是我剛才講決定權、核准權是在內政部的區委會，不是農業部核或不核，我們是在處理農地變更。如果區委會同意，我們才進行農地變更。"],["張委員啓楷：好，你們是督導，你剛才有說，要馬上跟高雄市政府連絡，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會來協調，但是我剛才說的，我們不是權責單位，沒辦法直接介入處理。"],["張委員啓楷：好，至少對你的權責督導那一部分，你兩週內請高雄市政府把當初怎麼核准的資料，還有農業部當初怎麼核准的水保計畫……"],["陳部長駿季：我說了我們沒有核准，怎麼一直叫我們拿核准的文件？我們沒有核准啊！"],["張委員啓楷：所以在水保計畫這塊你們完全不負責任嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：所以整個……"],["張委員啓楷：讓他講、讓他講，讓主管的講，怎麼可能完全沒有……"],["陳部長駿季：我請我們的法制說明，好不好？","我們有一定的規則，不是……"],["張委員啓楷：照規則，當然有督導、有參與，怎麼可能完全不負責任？那農業部就廢掉了，不是嗎？"],["吳處長芙蓉：委員，報告一下，水保計畫的核定在水保法裡面有明定得很清楚，原則上，都是直轄市、縣市政府核准，除了中央興建的工程才是農業部來核准，所以由民間開發的水保計畫都是由地方政府來核准，跟您做個說明。這個開發案一定要擬水保計畫，它不是第十九條的特定水土保持區，禁止開發，它是一個開發案，是內政部核准的開發案，在開發的當時，一定會開挖整地，只要在山坡地開挖整地，依水保法第十二條規定，就要擬水保計畫，報經地方政府核定，核定完以後，依照水保計畫來實施並監督，跟委員報告。"],["張委員啓楷：好，到底農業部的角色是什麼？除了你剛剛講的督導、溝通之外呢？"],["吳處長芙蓉：跟委員報告一下，中央在水保法裡面的角色，除了剛剛講中央的工程是我們核水保計畫，我們還是法規的主管機關。針對水保，我們有監督，剛剛我們的主秘也說得很清楚，有監督，所以地方如果有一些執行不是很妥適的，我們會來了解。在這個案子，就我們所知，地方政府有用水保法去裁罰，也勒令停工了，水保法該做的裁罰地方政府都做了，所以站在督導主管機關的立場，我們可以去了解，它不是不裁罰，它如果不裁罰，中央當然要介入，但目前它已經有裁罰、勒令停工……"],["張委員啓楷：好，你們先盡你們督導的責任，對不對？包含你剛剛講法規有沒有被誤解的這個地方。","第二個、你剛剛講裁罰，民眾和媒體現在為什麼跳起來？就是人命關天的事情，現在只有罰錢！他就一直做，我剛才說的……"],["陳部長駿季：它有勒令停工啊！"],["張委員啓楷：他一年可以營收四億多，你去罰那個小錢，他當然就繼續做啊！"],["陳部長駿季：它有勒令停工嘛！"],["吳處長芙蓉：有勒令停工。"],["張委員啓楷：有勒令停工，是嗎？一部分啦！台水剛來的消息是沒有，那個地是台水的……"],["吳處長芙蓉：我先說明，今天因為那個地……"],["張委員啓楷：沒關係，你去查清楚，現在不要各說各話，因為我的消息來源是台水，要質詢你之前，我特別去問，好不好？沒有的話，就要勒令他停工，趕快把安全做好，尤其是颱風天這段時間，人命關天，一定要趕快做。"],["陳部長駿季：我剛才說的，這個詳情我們會去跟高雄市政府了解，高雄市政府如果依法已經做了些決定或勒令停工的話，它也是依水保計畫做相關的處罰，就結了，跟農業部沒有特別的關係。"],["張委員啓楷：對，當然，你去看有沒有停工，現在台水的消息就沒有，沒有的話，就趕快去處理這件事情，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會去溝通了解。"],["張委員啓楷：另外，部長，說一個比較整體的，我們剛才說過了山坡地的整個生態問題、安全問題，你是不是能夠一個月內比較完整針對國內山坡地開發種光電的問題做一個檢討及報告出來？涉及山坡地的生態保護。"],["陳部長駿季：這個題目好大。"],["張委員啓楷：好大。"],["陳部長駿季：這個題目很大耶！"],["張委員啓楷：現在這種地方蠻多的，你有發現臺灣現在為了要種電，第一個、漁電共生，有一些魚塭已經被犧牲了，對不對？還有一些農地……"],["陳部長駿季：我要跟委員報告，如果……"],["張委員啓楷：現在連山坡地都開始砍樹、挖山，當然要檢討啊！"],["陳部長駿季：報告委員，山坡地本身的界定跟它的仰角是有關的，讓山坡地本身能夠開發光電或開發其他工程的話，一定都是經過個案審查的，你要我說明全臺灣山坡地這些光電政策及立場，這個是沒辦法說明的，因為都是個案在處理。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，就是這個案子出問題，你說高雄市政府有裁罰，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我現在就是說他要勒令停工，迫使它停不能只有罰錢，你是督導單位，你要進去，這是第一個，第一個是個案……"],["陳部長駿季：這個剛才已經講了。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個我要跟你講，有沒有類似的個案是有危險性的，你先去清一遍。我剛剛已經講了，這個有刑責問題，如果山坡地這樣開發出問題，主管機關難道不用抓去關起來？這個有刑責問題，不要說於心何忍，攸關人民的財產、生命安全，如果鬧出人命，怎麼辦？是不是？於心不安的同時還有刑責。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，所有的開發都有開發許可……"],["張委員啓楷：就是開發出了問題，所以才要你去查，如果去查沒有問題，當然就沒事。"],["陳部長駿季：開發要處理的話，就是地方政府的問題，內政部本身……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你怎麼一直把責任推給地方……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我絕對不會推責任……"],["張委員啓楷：地方要負一部分責任，至於中央，你剛剛講，要督導、要去解釋，對不對？現在有高雄的立委在場，等一下看民進黨的立委會不會上來要求要做這件事情。這不分黨派，攸關人民的生命、財產安全，中央與地方本來就是分工的，中央本來要做……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，農業部有農業部的職權，我可以介入處理的，我一定介入處理，我可以溝通了解的，我一定溝通了解……"],["張委員啓楷：對，就是要了解，趕快去溝通……"],["主席：這是跨部會的問題。"],["張委員啓楷：我最後只要一個東西。部長，我最後就要求一個東西，針對國內的山坡地，特別是開發去種光電的，到底安不安全，你去清一下，好不好？有發生像這樣的事情……"],["陳部長駿季：我可以了解現在的山坡地裡面有多少的光電案場，至於它到底安不安全，我絕對沒辦法判斷。"],["張委員啓楷：對，就是先去看安不安全，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我沒有辦法判斷它安不安全，它如果被許可的話，就是安全的。我可以在一個月之內去調所有山坡地有水保計畫、有光電案場的資料，這個可以處理，但是要我去判斷它安不安全，沒辦法做到。"],["張委員啓楷：好，你就全部一個月內先調出來，好不好？我簡單總結……"],["主席：好不好？把所有的資料給……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們是支持要發展綠電的，可是光電發展到現在，我已經問過你好幾次了，你看漁電共生有多少魚塭、多少農民的生活都受到影響，這是第一個。我上次就說，我知道你們壓力可能很大，一方面要充分供電，一方面那些業者……老實說，你們壓力大我也知道，可是你們要多站在人民的立場、農民的立場、人民財產安全的立場。","我最後總結，八十幾年的時候，臺灣一直在推BOT，那時候有一部電影很有名，叫「海角七號」，裡面這樣講，土地也要BOT，山也要BOT，連我們面對的大海都要BOT，臺灣的海這麼漂亮，可是我們自己都看不到。那是在諷刺BOT氾濫又出了一堆問題。現在光電也出了一堆問題，這樣搞下去，連山坡地都鏟平了，臺灣還剩下什麼？所以政府有責任，在推動光電的時候，光電業者的利益不能夠侵犯到人民的財產及生命安全，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：這一定的啊！"],["張委員啓楷：你要努力，從我前幾天問你的漁電共生，到我今天質詢山坡地被鏟平、樹被砍掉，這是臺灣人民要的嗎？這是政府一開始推動光電要的嗎？現在出問題要解決問題。"],["陳部長駿季：我還是一句話，如果申請過了，但是他們後續沒有依照水保計畫執行，就會開罰，這個部分我們會來做。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，在整個申請過程當然有法律的依據，可是老實講，很多申請案子過了以後，出現一堆弊案，所以才需要事後好好去追。現在媒體為什麼報導這麼大？因為民眾已經在陳情，我們共同解決問題，多站在人民的立場，特別幫人民解決財產、生命安全的問題。說實在的，我今天提出的質詢很重要，颱風天來了，我今天已經提醒大家了，如果出了問題，不是只有良心不安，這個有刑事責任，人會被抓去關，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請鄭天財委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林德福","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","郭國文","陳亭妃","李坤城","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","陳超明","鍾佳濱","邱志偉","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","李彥秀","麥玉珍","黃珊珊","呂玉玲","林思銘","羅明才","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2025-06-11"],"gazette_id":"1145901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農業保險法第十條條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員邱\n若華等21人擬具「農業保險法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「農業保險法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1145901_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}