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劉永健非政府組織國際事務會執行長 陳剛毅台灣日本關係協會秘書長 范正國台灣美國事務委員會秘書長 邱高偉理事事務局局長 何振環"},{"start":2119.908,"end":2141.434,"text":"國際合作發展基金會副秘書長石立軍民主基金會副執行長盧彥忠陸委會副主任委員梁文傑陸委會綜合規劃處處長魯仲寧"},{"start":2149.554,"end":2162.483,"text":"本日會議邀請外交部及陸委會報告美國總統大選後．對於美中台三邊關係及未來國際局勢發展的影響．並備質詢首先請外交部林部長上台報告"},{"start":2174.219,"end":2197.276,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生、大家早安。承蒙貴委員會邀請外交部前來就美國總統大選後對於美中台三邊關係及未來國際局勢發展之影響進行專題報告。以下僅提出本部的說明,敬請主席及各位委員不吝指教。"},{"start":2199.623,"end":2210.091,"text":"首先美國於美東時間11月5日舉行第60屆總統選舉共和黨候選人川普前總統所獲選舉人數已經超過當選門檻270票並宣布勝選在海美強健的夥伴關係基礎上"},{"start":2222.045,"end":2240.893,"text":"美國跨黨派對台支持以及對台灣的安全承諾都將延續我國將持續與美現任政府穩健推進雙方合作也期待與川普政府繼續深化台美關係首先川普首次執政時包括開啟對台軍售常態化"},{"start":2243.354,"end":2264.261,"text":"建置經濟繁榮夥伴對話等機制．高層訪台．宣布放寬臺美交往限制等．造就臺美關係顯著正向發展．我幫省盛努力推動．川普新政府延續首次執政．對台政策的正面立場．持續強化臺美關係臺美關係長期"},{"start":2271.281,"end":2288.762,"text":"溝通順暢,而且我們持續將深化在政治、安全及經濟各領域的雙邊及多邊合作夥伴關係。臺美間針對各項議題的對話及討論也已建制化,包括與川普總統首任成立的臺美"},{"start":2290.384,"end":2317.622,"text":"就是經濟繁榮夥伴對話以及上月舉行第5屆會議雙方也在會前完成EPPD合作備忘錄續約5年強化臺美經濟對話機制此外臺美在區域民主治理、教育、海巡、公共衛生、國際發展援助、糧食安全等多項領域也都已經建立了合作機制雙方應該會在這個基礎上持續的深化"},{"start":2318.562,"end":2334.744,"text":"在安全方面美國跨黨派、跨政府多次重申《恪守台灣關係法》及六項保證對台承諾除延續對台軍售常態化美國政府及國會也積極以各種政策工具助我強化嚇阻"},{"start":2335.905,"end":2354.359,"text":"這包括透過總統提用權及外國軍事融資 等創意方式提供軍援,助我提升國防能力,在臺美共同努力下,臺海和平穩定的重要性更已成為國際的共識,這形成了對中國的重要嚇阻。"},{"start":2355.748,"end":2376.329,"text":"而美方也持續深化與我經貿合作並共同提升國際供應鏈韌性在臺美積極提倡下國際社會已認知臺海和平穩定是全球安全及繁榮不可或缺的要素我將與新任政府持續強化民主國家因應經濟脅迫及提升經濟安全之合作"},{"start":2377.21,"end":2403.917,"text":"而除了行政部門之外國會參眾兩院跨黨派也展現強勁對台支持國會議員訪台層級及人數均屢創新高並持續以立法作為公開直言及聯名函等具體方式以行動展現對台灣的跨黨派支持我國與美國地方層級的互動交流也更加蓬勃發展包括美國各州在台設立辦事處的數量"},{"start":2407.212,"end":2425.791,"text":"從3年前人為個會數字﹐迄今已成長到23州及關島﹐共24個在台辦事處﹐另外各州州長訪台的頻率﹐也較以往更進一步提升﹐這些都展現我持續紮根於美國地方政府關係的一個進展"},{"start":2426.684,"end":2453.57,"text":"那麼在美中競爭格局以及美國跨黨派對台支持呢這個均將延續我想不會因為美國大選結果而有所改變那麼因為是跨黨派而且從這個聯邦到地方行政部門到國會都支持繼續推進各項美台關係"},{"start":2455.182,"end":2470.377,"text":"的發展,而且展現了具體的成果。美國對台灣的支持立場具有高度的延續性。臺美間的安全、經濟等跨領域各項合作也都已經一一建制化。當不受政府跟"},{"start":2471.478,"end":2500.109,"text":"換之影響,尤其,臺美關係是奠基在共享的民主自由及法治等普世價值與共同利益,使其長期以來受到美國跨黨派、跨政府的高度支持,立任美國政府不論由何黨執政均恪守《臺灣關係法》及六項保證,確保臺灣具備自我防衛能力,並積極深化臺美各領域合作,我們有充分信心,美國未來也將維持強勁的跨黨派"},{"start":2501.129,"end":2516.999,"text":"提台的力道。那麼在美中關係方面．美方將中國定位是最重要的地緣政治挑戰．雙方在軍事、經濟、科技等各領域的戰略競爭關係．一發白熱化．雖然就如何因應或有不同的觀點．"},{"start":2517.859,"end":2540.575,"text":"但美國行政部門及國會跨黨派已形成抗中的氣憤並提出許多抗中的政策工具及建議尤其中共近來持續擴大滲透及軍事擴張的野心並企圖改變以規則為基礎的國際秩序嚴重迫害區域和平穩定當非美國等民主夥伴所樂見而美中之間已形成的結構性競爭格局預期美國大選後"},{"start":2543.537,"end":2562.724,"text":"雙方競爭關係仍將持續但會避免衝突升高預期也將持續透過溝通來管控風險那麼臺美作為關鍵的安全與經濟夥伴將持續強化臺灣自我防衛能力及深化臺美安全合作並推動互惠互利的經貿關係"},{"start":2564.81,"end":2592.984,"text":"我政府並堅信和平靠實力的原則在美國持續落實對我安全承諾的同時我國政府也將持續致力提升台灣的自我防衛能力並深化與美國及其他理念相近國家的安全合作共同捍衛台海及區域的和平及穩定現狀來提升社會與人民的繁榮福祉那麼我政府審慎因應美國大選後中方可能採取的行動以及"},{"start":2594.247,"end":2614.663,"text":"對美、對台政策的可能方向簡述如下首先,中國政府目前以處理內政難題為優先,包括經濟低迷、房市崩盤、通縮壓頂、失業高漲、財政困難等因此現階段或將設法穩定美中關係,持續維持與美國鬥而不破的對立態勢"},{"start":2616.243,"end":2625.163,"text":"但也不排除中方刻意在選後交接其與區域擴大以灰色地帶策略測試美國新任總統的政策底線"},{"start":2626.24,"end":2653.058,"text":"那麼除非中國內部出現重大的政經情勢變化．或國際情勢出現重大的轉變．研判北京對台政策至少短期內．能較可能持續維持兩手策略．即2022年中共二十大定調的．反獨、反外力干涉、觸統、觸容．對台政策的基調、軟硬兩手．再是美國新政府的對中、對台政策發展．來彈性調整對台的戰術．"},{"start":2656.58,"end":2682.986,"text":"那麼針對中方可能加大灰色地帶的攻勢我方研判其相關做法不僅限於軍演也可能伴隨著網攻及認知作戰意圖削弱台灣內部的穩定與團結我政府當做好因應準備外交部也將與美方等理念相近國家保持密切協調並與區域盟友、夥伴深化安全及經濟合作共同強化對中的嚇阻"},{"start":2684.788,"end":2705.494,"text":"美國大選後的國際局勢發展及我國因應作為首先美國大選後的國際局勢．對全國民主國家．仍是十分的嚴峻、充滿挑戰．包括歐洲及中東戰火未歇．以及中國、北韓、俄羅斯、伊朗等威權集團．勢力相互協作．企圖挑戰與規則為基礎的國際秩序"},{"start":2708.715,"end":2725.238,"text":"意圖片面改變現狀．然而印太地區仍將持續是美國的關注焦點．其安全與穩定符合美國國家利益．這是川普首任美方提出的印太戰略．加強美國在印太地區的影響力．"},{"start":2726.359,"end":2751.672,"text":"並對中國在全國擴張影響力保持高度警戒。我們也看到﹐美方不僅持續強化在印太地區的軍事部署﹐也以建置各式相互交織重疊的雙邊﹐小型多邊及多邊的夥伴聯盟﹐強化與印太盟邦夥伴的合作與協調﹐這樣的一個制度化的作為﹐將更有助於盟邦夥伴之間的合作﹐較不易因政府的根力﹐"},{"start":2755.452,"end":2781.59,"text":"我政府也將持續密切關注新任政府上任後﹐美方與相關盟邦夥伴的互動。我國作為印太區域負責任的成員﹐除致力提升自我防衛能力﹐也將持續強化與美國等盟友夥伴的安全合作﹐除展現自我防衛決心﹐我方刻推動的經濟外交﹐也符合川普首任在EPPD架構下與我簽署的基礎﹐"},{"start":2782.35,"end":2795.763,"text":"建設融資及市場建立合作架構以及乾淨網路合作因此我將競速與美方就各項融幫及互幫的工作嚴提具體的合作項目最後,臺美關係以《臺灣關係法》及六項保證為基礎"},{"start":2799.086,"end":2825.596,"text":"長期以來獲得美國跨黨派及跨政府大力的支持相信在美國新任川普政府上任之後美國對台灣的支持也將延續本部也將持續在此基礎上深化臺美全方位夥伴關係與美國的盟友及理念相近的國家共同來守護臺海及印太區域的和平、穩定與繁榮以上報告謝謝主席與各位委員敬請"},{"start":2826.736,"end":2831.643,"text":"大院委員不吝指教,持續給予本部大力的支持。謝謝。接下來我們請陸委會梁副主委進行報告。"},{"start":2852.382,"end":2878.054,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生因為我們陸委會的報告是在兩天前就送來了所以我們手上大家拿到的還是舊版的那我們是根據昨天的狀況我們有一份新的但是我現在就是簡短的向大家報告首先共和黨候選人川普已經順利贏得美國總統大選"},{"start":2879.434,"end":2899.492,"text":"那共和黨與參眾兩院的選舉也取得多數的優勢那以下是本會的初步評估第一因為勝負狀態比較明顯所以美國的政局應該可以保持穩定短期內台海局勢不會因為出現空窗期而有變數"},{"start":2902.608,"end":2921.644,"text":"第二,鑒於美國新政府的外交與全球安全政策可能產生變化,那我們會密切關注以下的幾個議題,即時妥勝因應。第一,美國政府對俄烏戰爭及中東戰爭的政策立場,是不是會有所調整?"},{"start":2923.186,"end":2938.202,"text":"第二,美國的對中圍堵機制以及應他集體安全體系是不是會有所調整?第三,美國是否延續拜登政府目前對中經貿關稅及科技管制措施?"},{"start":2944.673,"end":2968.195,"text":"但是經過橫著整體情勢,美國選舉結果對全球民主陣營共同抵禦威權擴張以及美中與兩岸關係的發展,我們認為不會產生大幅的變化。第一,全球民主國家深化合作共同抗衡威權主義擴張,美中長期競爭態勢不會因為美國大選結果而改變。"},{"start":2969.807,"end":2998.601,"text":"第二我們認為中共內部治理問題擊中難反為挽救經濟確保政治安全及需維繫穩定的外部環境預料將繼續與美國透過溝通管控分歧第三研判美國選後中共仍將延續處容、處統、反獨、反介入的政策基調對台施行複合性的施壓第四"},{"start":2999.878,"end":3023.232,"text":"政府的兩岸政策是一貫的,致力維護台海和平穩定,積極落實和平四大支柱行動方案。未來政府也將持續關切觀察美中關係及兩岸情勢的變化,省慎應處,深化與包括美國在內的民主國家的合作,共同守護台海及區域和平穩定。以上報告,敬請指教。"},{"start":3030.058,"end":3031.419,"text":"我們補充介紹黃仁委員確認議事錄請問在場委員對上次會議議事錄有無遺漏、錯誤或需要更正之處議事錄確定"},{"start":3048.13,"end":3064.946,"text":"現在開始尋答本會委員8加2分鐘．非本會委員4加2分鐘10點半發言登記截止．如有臨時提案．請於10點半前提出11點左右是尋答情形進行處理現在請王定與昭偉上台質詢"},{"start":3078.311,"end":3105.703,"text":"委員長 今天有相當多的事情要請教外交部首先在11月份左右我們有四個重要的朋友的選舉那這四個選舉其實蠻有代表性的剛好代表我們外交很重要的四個樣態"},{"start":3106.983,"end":3131.891,"text":"第一個是在美國他是我們的重要的外交盟友那總統大選昨天完成了那川普再度進到白宮然後並且在參眾兩院全部都過半可以說是完全執政另外一個是我們的鄰國重要的地緣政治的鄰國也是我們經貿安全重要的隔壁鄰居日本"},{"start":3132.651,"end":3148.784,"text":"日本大選完了在11月11號連續4天要進行內閣總理大臣的推舉而且他們現在目前沒有一個政黨過半必須採取多黨聯盟或者少數政府另外一個是我們的正式邦交國這個是在"},{"start":3150.145,"end":3151.486,"text":"中歐、北歐非常重要的"},{"start":3166.478,"end":3182.432,"text":"這幾年在歐洲外交關係突破的你可以叫他攤頭堡你也可以叫他成為重要的朋友也是一個新型態的模式以台灣代表處開啟了在歐洲進駐的一個方式那立陶宛大選其實立陶宛的執政黨很少連任的啦"},{"start":3182.952,"end":3207.322,"text":"立法院大選每一次都會輪這一次是反對黨成為國會最大黨即將接任總理的帕魯克斯有對跟台灣的關係做出一些講法大概這四個我們先從美國總統大選川普再度回到白宮國會過半完全執政對於我們外交部來講因應一個格局我們雖然不押寶"},{"start":3208.402,"end":3233.061,"text":"民主共和都是我們的好朋友但是我相信每一種可能性每一種scenario我們都要做好準備外交部有沒有預判川普可能的重要人事布局特別是在國務卿、國安層級以及貿易談判代表這三個會影響到台灣的安全、國防以及我們的經貿的談判你們目前研判怎麼樣"},{"start":3234.085,"end":3258.4,"text":"是,我們自從兩黨總統候選人在初選期間提名的時候我們就已經有整理他們重要的這些人事佈局可能的名單那你預估,我們當然不能講誰是誰的位子因為川普自己都還沒定有哪些名字浮在我們的預判裡面"},{"start":3260.515,"end":3276.332,"text":"其實在川普第一任總統任內有一些可能會回任那也有一些新的參與他這一次這個MEGA就是相關的政見擬定的人這些我們都有根據他們可能的一個"},{"start":3279.315,"end":3281.395,"text":"談判代表其實我提醒你們要注意一下"},{"start":3306.88,"end":3328.297,"text":"不管做TIFA或者未來我們兩邊的BTA現在叫做那個21世紀貿易什麼倡議談判代表其實很重要那因為他現在是一個強勢政權國會過半總統普選票也贏代表票也贏所以川普的政策他其實就有去"},{"start":3329.698,"end":3351.203,"text":"執行的壓力包含關稅100%、200%這件事情我覺得對中國來講關稅可能是一件大事情就是經貿關稅、區域安全他在昨天長達40幾分鐘的等於勝選演說裡面其實對外關係講的不多他大概只提到一次說我們擁有比中國更多的東西"},{"start":3351.863,"end":3371.855,"text":"我不是來start War我不會來開啟戰爭我要來Stop我要來終止戰爭大概提到這一塊所以就外交部目前看起來川普對台有沒有什麼政策是值得我們要注意的如常的沒有問題的我們都知道大概大方向都不變有沒有需要注意的部分"},{"start":3372.912,"end":3391.379,"text":"我想他當然是以就是剛講內政為主在經濟跟移民問題上那其實在地緣政治上他也有一些主張所以這方面會對我們的影響以及如何因應我們也是都有所準備"},{"start":3392.079,"end":3394.742,"text":"當時川普在第一任總統任內有關印太戰略架構在2018年提早解密還透過澳洲的媒體解密那個架構把第一島鏈"},{"start":3412.213,"end":3439.388,"text":"第二島鏈第一島鏈要嚇阻中國對第一島鏈的威脅第二島鏈要成為完全能夠採摘就美國跟盟友要能夠完全控制第二島鏈他那個印太戰略架構是他上一次要連任之前揭露出來的東西這個會不會延續對我們影響很重要第二個他在國際經貿他甚至於他上次TPP就要退出的"},{"start":3440.268,"end":3449.442,"text":"所以對於這種多邊的經貿組織他才採取什麼態度他的人事跟政策會影響到他對於區域安全是讓你自己負責還是會積極介入"},{"start":3454.164,"end":3479.61,"text":"讓你自己負責是你要什麼我給你這個都會影響這個我建議要多研究因為這個還在演變成說未來我也許跟林玉清召委我們還會等他們人事佈局更穩定一點我們甚至於要到華府一趟或者我們可能這個台美國會聯誼會因為我們很多這個台灣Caucus的成員都連任其實國會是很重要的不分民主共和有台的"},{"start":3480.69,"end":3500.368,"text":"台灣連線的國會議員連任率很高目前還是國會最大的力量這個是我們要掌握住的我跟委員回應一下確實如你所言其實美台關係的架構主要是在川普他在第一任總統任內其實設定包括印太戰略包括對台軍售的常態化"},{"start":3501.248,"end":3517.284,"text":"包括呢,EPPD,就是這個所謂1加1等於3,就是經濟繁榮夥伴對話架構,以及呢,高層的互訪,層次很高,到次卿的層次到台灣,衛生部長。另外一期啊,我覺得一個非常重要的是,"},{"start":3518.485,"end":3536.412,"text":"就是說對台灣來講我想這些架構性的東西我們應該是會做基礎他有沒有用一些人事或政策去推翻自己上一任的架構我剛才提醒是這件事情他如果推翻上一任的架構我們就要"},{"start":3538.297,"end":3566.979,"text":"用什麼字呢?Be cautious我們要小心你懂意思嗎?因為這一任的川普跟下一任的川普我們不能假設是一樣的那我接下來要請教的就是你剛才提到歐布萊恩歐布萊恩他有去轉發並且加了一些文字去我們賴清德總統對川普的賀文在X上面那X的老闆X的老闆馬斯克也是川普他昨天也花了好長時間在俄羅馬斯克所以"},{"start":3568.059,"end":3590.535,"text":"這個文他有轉發那一般有人預計說奧布萊恩可能是國安顧問或者國務卿我們不要去預測因為預測搞不好害了他本來有會變沒有所以我的意思是說除了奧布萊恩以外我們目前外交部或我們的國安高層有沒有跟川普總統重要的幕僚直接的接觸有或沒有"},{"start":3592.211,"end":3592.971,"text":"接觸的成績是誰?"},{"start":3617.642,"end":3645.533,"text":"有提到賴清德總統當然在AXE上面這是一個非正式的恭賀我相信外交體系應該有把正式的賀文透過駐美代表處轉給對已經這個致函已經我提醒我們對美經營是所以對於拜登總統在過去四年對台灣的協助我們要百發感謝我們對於川普總統的集戰就任表示恭賀那"},{"start":3646.454,"end":3670.062,"text":"上一次川普總統就任沒多久跟小英總統有直接通上電話有經過一些穿梭聯繫那目前我們外交部也好國安高層也好跟賴清德總統這一邊有沒有跟川普的幕僚直接通上話然後未來有沒有直接見到面或聯絡的安排或努力有還是沒有"},{"start":3671.002,"end":3689.794,"text":"我們有聯繫的管道,但是並沒有就像如說電話這方面有任何的討論我再把問題講一遍,你跟他重要的幕僚要有直接的溝通管道,這個很重要"},{"start":3690.655,"end":3705.328,"text":"然後這溝通管道我們有些努力要達成的目標但是如果能夠促成兩位元首見面當好事但困難度很高嘛那雙方能不能不管是願意公開的通商化或者是"},{"start":3706.249,"end":3724.088,"text":"不願公開的通商化這個其實也很重要這是一個我問的是外交部有沒有把這個列為努力的方向不沒有因為有一家媒體有錯誤的報導關於說是不是有在聯繫通電的事情我可以很明確跟你講我們目前並沒有這樣的聯繫那未來會不會嘗試"},{"start":3727.831,"end":3744.638,"text":"我想隨著他選舉結果都抵定人事的佈局我想這個溝通的管道是有的我最後一分鐘提醒外交部外交是整體的國力經濟是外交國防是外交"},{"start":3745.838,"end":3761.077,"text":"這個是部長你提過的所以當川普選擇內閣就任他看到亞洲看到印太他不喜歡說亞太他喜歡說印太對他看到印太的時候看到中國問題的時候他一定要思考台灣的角色這跟安全跟國防有關"},{"start":3761.818,"end":3782.811,"text":"他看到國內就業機會的時候避免雙重割稅這個我們跟美國遊說很久美國民主共和兩黨都承諾選後要來處理這個避免雙重割稅可以讓我們的企業從墨西哥北部的邊境往北移到美國境內創造就業機會而這個對話過程如果讓民間去努力外交部跟我們政府角色就不見了"},{"start":3783.852,"end":3793.559,"text":"政府要有角色去統合我們經濟的力量不管是集體電路公司或者是傳統製造公司當美國要MEGA"},{"start":3794.164,"end":3822.243,"text":"要把工作帶回美國的時候他要跟盟友來溝通這個時候溝通的管道就有溝通的議題對台美來講會有實質的部分所以基本上我們當然恭喜川普總統當選總統他當選之後我覺得最頭痛的應該是中國但台灣還是要小心跟新的行政團隊的磨合侵殺我們國家利益我們希望我們下一次再有這樣專報的時候能夠更具體好不好好"},{"start":3822.783,"end":3830.505,"text":"另外三個選舉的相關細節我們再來溝通。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。謝謝王定宇召委。林部長請回。接下來我們請陳冠廷委員上台質詢。你好,我們請部長。請林部長。"},{"start":3860.046,"end":3877.734,"text":"部長好委員好部長這一次的總統大選之後我看到我們很多部門像昨天我在諮詢經濟部長的時候我問他說那台美關係還有會不會有變化那他是說不會有變化那就是堅若磐石跟過去一樣部長你覺得這樣的說法"},{"start":3879.995,"end":3906.283,"text":"其實民主國家選舉競爭跟政黨人體是常態也都有變與不變那有一些不管是法律或政策會延續但是也有一些人士可能因為新的政見主張那基本上臺美關係除了總統選舉以外其實國會是一個觀察指標我跟委員可以報告一下因為您很關心在國會友台的力量"},{"start":3907.523,"end":3916.886,"text":"這部分我們到目前為止以這個參議院這一次我們有30幾位我們友台小組的成員9位是這一次面臨的改選目前知道的有6位已經公佈的都是連任所以相當穩定那在眾議院方面"},{"start":3927.53,"end":3933.615,"text":"四位共同主席也都順利連任所以更為增強對台灣在國會上面的支持的力量部長講得很好有變與不變所以當我們說這個完全沒有改變這是錯誤的訊息"},{"start":3946.932,"end":3965.325,"text":"我們美台之間的夥伴關係不會改變但是美國的領導層的變化跟他們的未來任用的內閣當然會有不同的政治的意識形態當然有不同的外交政策只是說我們要怎麼樣因應這樣的情勢這才是重點"},{"start":3965.885,"end":3986.313,"text":"首先要了解狀況,不是說全部都一樣堅若磐石,但是卻沒有因應說川普政權接下來的這種貿易上面、經濟上面、外交上面、安全保障上面的政策的改變。所以我必須要特別來強調,我們要怎麼樣把我們的論述完整化,才不會被"},{"start":3987.659,"end":4006.669,"text":"中國方面可能會用以美論來趁機來介入這就是重點比方說我想要請教一下在經貿的部分川普是非常注重要把企業留在美國要把工作機會留在美國要把科技業留在美國那甚至有可能會對其他國家我就"},{"start":4007.369,"end":4014.214,"text":"確實我們要了解對方現在新政府的政策方向比如說像投資美國創造就業機會那這個是我們正在做而且很明顯可以看到包括台積電還有各方面的投資"},{"start":4036.129,"end":4056.815,"text":"另外一個其實我們現在在推的經濟外交在美國方面就是川普總統我想他任內啟動的包括乾淨網路就是這一些都是去紅色供應鏈包括電信跟5G以及EPPD這最重要"},{"start":4057.635,"end":4058.396,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":4077.108,"end":4094.542,"text":"在台灣生產這個高科技的晶片是有效率的經濟有效率上面所以要說服或者是用我們的論述比如說強調鞏固台灣對美國的經濟整體的發展是更有效率那第二部分有人會問說那我們的這個台灣的這個晶片會不會受到影響"},{"start":4099.929,"end":4110.725,"text":"臺灣不一定有這麼多的土地來去建設廠房分散一部分的投資在美國把最高製程的留在臺灣這確實是也符合臺美之間的利益再來就是會有"},{"start":4111.306,"end":4135.727,"text":"一些論述說這樣子這個美國不斷的要求台灣來增加我們的這個國防預算這也符合台灣利益跟美國利益啊當我們現在粗糙美國的時候代表說台灣跟美國之間的貿易是增長的這就是經濟上面的互助既榮邦那又能夠把我們的貿易往上一層但是滿足我自己的國防需求是以符合台灣的利益啊所以哪有什麼有一些人會說什麼繳保護費什麼時候"},{"start":4138.169,"end":4156.75,"text":"公布自己的國家的國防必然要繳保護費這種說法我們必須第一時間就要把這個錯誤的論述把它打破除此之外我們不僅跟美國的貿易是這8年來是最好的狀況之外同時我們有多出來的這些如果要確保說貿易是平衡的貿易是對等的"},{"start":4157.711,"end":4184.952,"text":"跟美國來去採購最先進的防衛的系統防衛的服務這有什麼不對這當然是可以增加我國的防衛能量有人說川普說要提到10%但是我們另外一方面也要跟他們強調一點就是說我們當然願意緩慢的把我們的應該說是在暗部就班的把我們國防預算提高但是在暗部就班的把國防預算提高的時候也要確保美國的生產量能夠跟上我國的採購需求"},{"start":4185.732,"end":4213.558,"text":"所以這是一連串的論述當我們達成這個論述的時候相關的以美論自然而然的就可以把它去這個化名掉你覺得這個看法怎麼樣我覺得以美論是沒有必要啦因為其實美國跟台灣的一個關係不只是說分享共同的理念而且是互利的關係而且在美台的經濟整合啊可以說是相當的深我簡單來講就是說"},{"start":4216.679,"end":4232.068,"text":"讓美國再次偉大不能沒有台灣如果沒有了台灣跟美國的這種夥伴關係那美國也很難再次偉大因為像台積電這樣的投資他是一個很國際化的公司外資佔了將近七成"},{"start":4235.33,"end":4250.847,"text":"所以我們要了解說在美國的投資這個是互惠的那因為他本身也要發展晶片產業所以有人講說是不是什麼台灣plusone要去把台灣的供應鏈從台灣移出其實我們從另外一個角度來講是台灣plusone"},{"start":4252.709,"end":4271.155,"text":"這台灣的全球布局隨著這個供應鏈的重組我們更有韌性這個因應未來的國際振興的變化所以我覺得美台關係沒有必要去分化我想中共在這方面不斷在操作所謂的以美論我認為是錯的而且沒有必要"},{"start":4272.475,"end":4299.048,"text":"並且呢不會成功謝謝部長那再來就是說關於這個他對盟邦或者是安全保障的做法那一定跟拜登是不太一樣的那可能風格不一樣風格不一樣那我相信基本的一個民主國家他的政策法令還有一些關係是延續的對那我必須強調說那這樣的他的政策方針不一樣的話我們要相應的去調整嘛比方說他可能"},{"start":4300.129,"end":4303.151,"text":"印太戰略本來就是一個區域乃至全球的戰略它是超越雙邊的那同樣在第一島鏈我想川普總統就是"},{"start":4326.793,"end":4341.924,"text":"讓美國真正重返亞洲甚至從太平洋到印度洋連結那因為國際政治它是有互相聯動所以在歐洲的一個情況包括俄烏戰爭的發展我們要密切關注因為這個也代表新的政府他可能的作風"},{"start":4344.566,"end":4366.435,"text":"我們可能要立刻就是主動接洽多邊跟我們國家比較有這個利害相關的國家其實我跟委員報告其實因應美國選舉其實像包括在歐洲我們理念相近的國家他們也都開始在調整這個是必然的對對這個時候我們可能就是要更加注重地緣政治那可能"},{"start":4367.355,"end":4384.32,"text":"部長上台之後價值外交的這個他的順位他也必須要相應調整對於川普來講所謂的價值外交我們要這樣子的跟他的這樣的接觸的方式跟縮帖也一定要調整因為對他來講"},{"start":4385.936,"end":4400.715,"text":"地緣政治的挑戰他放在比較前面那對於美國的貿易跟美國的這個產業他的重心會放得更重要那所以說這是從他們的這個美國大選的政策就可以看出明顯的不同"},{"start":4402.056,"end":4428.962,"text":"針對這個不同當然要調整我們的所有縮帖所以我當然是認同價值外交我當然是覺得說這個我們台灣跟許多歐洲的民主國家一樣在倡導這個民主、自由、人權但是現在的美國他們重視的是國家利益那這個部分我們也必須因應新的政府來做出新的調整我想這個是非常重要的但第二點我們也要擔心的包含這個"},{"start":4430.542,"end":4454.31,"text":"馬斯克在這幾天我記得是新鏈的部分可能一些這個生產鏈都說因為地緣政治的挑戰可能會轉移我想這方面也必須要找到相應的人員來去說服說在台灣生產是有效率的在台灣生產是符合美國利益跟美國戰略的這些鞏固台灣的這些做法"},{"start":4454.89,"end":4479.598,"text":"我們也必須要跟他們一一的來去了解甚至他們是在商言商所以針對一些特殊的這些租稅或者是相關的這些經濟的措施可能都變成必須要我們要連串去思考就不可以說這是經濟部的事情外交部就變成要統合這一切就包含今天如何加入CPTPP在經濟委員會外交部也有書面報告所以大家要串起來因為現在"},{"start":4481.36,"end":4486.135,"text":"不比過去四年完全不同的方針施政的方式必須要因應"},{"start":4487.321,"end":4512.388,"text":"我是覺得提升臺灣的一個就是競爭的優勢那技術生跟臺灣產線佈局全球其實供應的重組有它的趨勢那臺灣在這裡面怎麼應用這個趨勢來佈局所以並不是說好像供應要從臺灣移出其實這也是一個我們國力的擴張嘛延伸嘛所以我想說剛剛講到比如說以這個新鏈它的這個供應鏈那臺灣的優勢"},{"start":4514.969,"end":4537.286,"text":"不能沒有台灣,因為這個很清楚,我們在資通訊上面,在晶片這個產業上,但是在佈局上怎麼樣做,有它一定的經濟的一個邏輯,配合地盤政治的變化,我們確實要時間已經到,最後再補充一點就好,不好意思招惹,就是我們剛剛提到的晶片相關的法案對不對,那我們希望說我們的在這個駐美的辦事處來去強調"},{"start":4539.147,"end":4539.668,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":4561.269,"end":4567.532,"text":"我認為這是一個重中之重的麻煩以晶片跟半導體產業來講,臺美關係是分工合作是互補的關係,所以它不會傷害自己所以臺灣的重要性已經跟美國的晶片發展是融為一體"},{"start":4590.101,"end":4608.208,"text":"布局什麼樣的策略 業者也有相當的準備跟意義我們的擔憂是因為之前的共和黨的眾議院議長有提到所以我們必須在他提到之後 立刻要有我們的縮帖 立刻去反映這是我們執行的目的有這個問題 所以我們要解釋說 這不是問題"},{"start":4616.351,"end":4616.531,"text":"台灣美賺一塊錢"},{"start":4631.368,"end":4631.548,"text":"這部長你剛才"},{"start":4655.639,"end":4656.32,"text":"謝謝陳冠廷委員 部長請回"},{"start":4686.977,"end":4688.578,"text":"接下來我們請黃仁委員上台質詢有請我們外交部長請您部長好 部長委員好"},{"start":4715.461,"end":4733.819,"text":"首先我們先恭喜我們川普能夠當選是不是帶來全球裡面的安定我們一代後面的演變是如何但是我們不得不相信你們也要重新的調整跟思考"},{"start":4736.758,"end":4757.623,"text":"未來對台灣的利益跟美國的利益有怎麼樣的一個互惠跟互動跟未來怎麼樣的合作台灣有它的獨立性不是因為新的政府美國然後造成了我們台灣的壓力今天我們要講的"},{"start":4761.055,"end":4779.826,"text":"我們過去從拜登政府這幾年推動的全球民主信賴夥伴關係我相信這一定會有不同改變的一個角度不同改變的角度因為我們當然希望我們的信賴這個夥伴關係能夠存在"},{"start":4782.421,"end":4803.346,"text":"那當然以拜登上任之後可能會有所的改變因為我們可以了解拜登川普在選舉之前都已經對世界對我們台灣都已經表達了他們將要採取什麼樣的策略跟政策你來回答一下"},{"start":4805.435,"end":4806.836,"text":"現在我講的是川普現在未來對台灣實施什麼樣的手段"},{"start":4826.926,"end":4843.621,"text":"就是包括像台灣關係法、六項保證還有有關於國會通過的這些法案這些都是會延續的這第一層第二層就是他的政策我剛剛提過其實在川普第一任總統的時候其實現在後來拜登"},{"start":4844.802,"end":4846.904,"text":"本席在觀察川普執政的特色如下"},{"start":4858.325,"end":4884.701,"text":"第一個,美國優先以美國為仇星的單邊主義減少美國的安潛責任交易主義以及關稅自擺病等這些特色都容易引起其他國家的不滿甚至造成其他國家的利益直接受損川普過去不是只對中國大陸採取不友善策略"},{"start":4886.182,"end":4914.564,"text":"對北約、歐盟也是如此可見他的想法是想把世界欺風為美國跟非美國只在乎美國是否能夠獲得利己的利益所以這就是我們現在要思考的問題台灣未來是不是他要重新的調整提高保護費用為什麼因為有兩項的問題你先回答我剛剛前面的問題"},{"start":4915.58,"end":4935.318,"text":"就是說對川普的路線有各種的名詞我不太用這些名詞是因為對美國優先其實任何總統執政都是美國優先只是說他的作風跟怎麼樣去形成一個在國際穩定的力量他做法不盡相同現在問題對台灣來講台灣的重要性問題現在我只針對對台灣未來採取什麼樣的手段第一個"},{"start":4942.163,"end":4949.713,"text":"他已經對外說要對台灣要收集保護費這保護費項目是什麼是提高經費的經購的這些預算還是要從整個總預算的1.2兆"},{"start":4959.546,"end":4960.727,"text":"現在是美國沒有在台灣駐軍所以這個所謂保護會這種講法是後來媒體把他可能簡略或可能有一點誤導"},{"start":4975.999,"end":4989.103,"text":"我們本來就在臺海的安全就是臺灣自己我們要盡一份責任那我們的盟邦他有基於臺灣關係法六項保證還有這些軍售我現在問的是未來我們現在我們要去面對我們要針對我們國內國人的關心第一個臺灣半頭體美國說強美國說強我們的這個"},{"start":5003.067,"end":5023.974,"text":"美國說搶我們的生意,搶我們台灣報導體搶美國的生意,要向台灣收保護費,這要對美國所有的進口的產品都要加徵百分之十的關稅,這就是問題所在,百分之十有多少?"},{"start":5025.503,"end":5054.792,"text":"各位委員他這個用關稅作為他這個美國優先的一個手段這不是只針對台灣他對中國甚至要苛徵六成的增加的一個關稅我們不講別的我們講台灣就好了所以現在國人要擔心的是什麼川普當選之後對全球甚至對台灣我們現在是台灣最關心的議題就是未來我們是不是要提高我們的"},{"start":5056.873,"end":5067.878,"text":"這個軍購的這個預算還是要從他的整個總預算裡面要收齊保護費用我跟委員報告我們比如說我們跟對方溝通我會呈現說比如過去八年來我們的國防預算從每一年這個3300億已經增加到6400多億我們的增加率八成以上而且未來還會持續增加"},{"start":5080.023,"end":5102.124,"text":"而且呢,我們對美國的一個,他們我們的軍購啊,就是他有兩百多億美金啊,還沒有遞交這一些我們的這個軍購嘛,就是他軍售的這一些武器嘛,所以我們都透過一定的溝通啊,我們要不卑不亢啊。"},{"start":5102.925,"end":5107.33,"text":"本來我們就要持續因為隨著我們基金比、國民我們的預算的增加我們的比例跟總額也會增加因為時間因素你再說一個書面的給我報告好不好這個我們有縮帖我們把給美國的縮帖要給委員這個我請同仁"},{"start":5119.083,"end":5143.08,"text":"這是有關於大家關心的一個是經費另外一個就是所謂軍費這兩個我們的撥貼要提供給委員我們現在是以台立外交身邊就是我們的立陶宛10月底立陶宛在國會大選後由社民黨成為國會的最大黨並組成聯合政府日前準總統這個帕魯克斯表示"},{"start":5144.56,"end":5168.913,"text":"將尋求以中國大陸前面恢復正常外交關係．並稱立陶宛以諾台灣開設以台灣為名稱的代表處．為對外記者說是外交錯誤。．這個台立關係申辯的第一個警訊．是社民黨在今年的5月份"},{"start":5170.273,"end":5194.472,"text":"總統大選的時候而連任的納塞達總統也曾經表示過要把以台灣名義設立的代表處改為台北那以穩定與中國大陸的關係時而當時的前任的吳釗燮部長當時也說信誓旦旦的說名稱不會改變短短半年即是又申辯了發生這樣的狀況部長"},{"start":5197.074,"end":5205.856,"text":"在你心上任你有什麼樣應對這樣的一個問題將會生變如何應應首先我國駐立陶宛代表處的名稱是臺灣跟立陶宛雙方政府當時達致的共識跟決定我們當然會努力去維護它我想任何變更也需要經過雙方面的一個程序至於說他們的這個"},{"start":5226.562,"end":5236.477,"text":"大選完之後新政府的組成未來的在這個政策上我們並不反對立法院跟中國關係正常化這個設大使館可是這不"},{"start":5237.932,"end":5240.194,"text":"現在已經提示了外交錯誤已經他們是對國際媒體表達了外交錯誤並希望我們以台灣改立為台北這個就是一個警訊了"},{"start":5261.969,"end":5278.103,"text":"我覺得委員你可能要稍微他後半段他也有提到說其實立陶宛是一個主權他這個國家啦其實也不是說在外力下壓迫他就一定就會改變那我們當然要去努力怎麼樣去實質的增進台力關係"},{"start":5279.204,"end":5280.865,"text":"外交錯誤是我們的台灣設立在立陶宛就是一個外交錯誤這就是一個警訊"},{"start":5303.504,"end":5304.525,"text":"我們就是溝通來說明其實"},{"start":5315.837,"end":5340.453,"text":"立、台、中三邊的關係不是零和的那立陶宛也開創了一個新的模式我想如果中國願意回來跟立陶宛發展正常的關係不要再制裁他們經貿或者是說自己這個撤出大使館這個我們基本上我們都不反對所以立、中跟立、台關係是兩件事情是可以同步來發展創造多贏"},{"start":5342.08,"end":5363.261,"text":"我們會去溝通,但是委員提到,沒有錯,這個要值得我們要注意,因為這些都代表著說我們外交上未來的挑戰。我跟部長講,我們建立在一個,跟立法院建立的關係,主要的關係,就是一個新冠疫情和二屋戰爭兩個事件上,其實利益極點並不穩固。"},{"start":5365.063,"end":5385.39,"text":"尤其在新冠疫情結束後．立即點消失的前提下．台立關係動搖的可能性大增所以這就是一個主因那我們也特別請外交部加強．來跟立陶宛再做雙邊的關係．再做一個好好的來"},{"start":5388.011,"end":5388.131,"text":"謝謝華倫委員部長請回"},{"start":5418.22,"end":5418.36,"text":"馬文君議員"},{"start":5439.537,"end":5440.518,"text":"美國總統大選明朗化,川普會再度入主白宮。過去我們也曾經跟川普總統有"},{"start":5458.654,"end":5484.042,"text":"在他上一任的時候其實大概都很多的不管政策面或者他在各方面的一些領導風格大概我們都有交手過那他現在再度入主白宮這一次他可以當選雖然大家覺得他非常的狂妄自大然後可能有一些做法也是跟一般人不太一樣可是他還是順利的當選而且不是微服"},{"start":5486.823,"end":5502.128,"text":"不像在剛開始的時候﹖很多的評論﹖或者媒體的﹖不管民調也好﹖他們不是差距很小﹖甚至差距還蠻大的那這個部分很重要的因素﹖是因為他在選舉的過程當中﹖他要繁榮經濟的這樣的承諾﹖其實是受到很多民眾的﹖可能接受或願意相信他"},{"start":5513.632,"end":5513.652,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":5518.297,"end":5518.317,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":5549.498,"end":5569.111,"text":"兩岸可能還有其他其他的一個因素的情況之下才會有這樣的狀況所以我那請問部長就這個部分因為剛剛我是非常認同你提到的就我們過去在國防武器上面至少有200億美元以上的金額他的武器裝備是還沒有"},{"start":5570.892,"end":5587.284,"text":"提供給我們如期提供給我們所以就這個部分外交部也認同應該要據理力爭不可以矮化我們自己這一點本席非常認同我也希望未來是朝這個方向尤其外交部應該可以著力更多跟國防部可以聯合起來為我們的國防安全還有我們的防衛的力量可以"},{"start":5594.79,"end":5594.95,"text":"特斯拉執行長"},{"start":5612.194,"end":5626.543,"text":"馬斯克對台灣也不是很有善所以今天如果他們兩個湊在一起的時候我們先來回想他們在上一任因為中國電信公司可能成為間諜跟網路攻擊載體所以他對華為跟中興通訊實施了出口管制"},{"start":5634.548,"end":5662.627,"text":"可是後來因為要求大陸購買美國的農業跟能源的商品以後他就取消了中心通訊的這個管制他一向都是把這個利益放在首位那對我們也是川普在接受媒體訪問就在選舉過程當中他談到如果解放軍對台灣展開武統的時候美國他不是派出第七艦隊來到台灣海峽"},{"start":5665.888,"end":5691.916,"text":"來解除我們的封鎖然後也不是拿導彈瞄準中國的軍事要塞或重要的基建他是要宣布對中國加關稅所以其實從他很多的做法跟他的言談之間其實很明顯的利益還有他的生意其實都是放在第一位這個部分我們外交部還有沒有什麼比較積極的一個應對的做法"},{"start":5693.587,"end":5722.967,"text":"是跟委員報告美國是一個民主國家那川普總統得到很大的民意的支持我們要當一回事我們要認真地來去理解他政策背後的民意基礎那確實比如你剛剛提到的幾項比如說你剛剛提到的他這個我們採購200多億美金他還沒有交付這個武器那現在美國又通過國防這個工業這個戰略的法案那是不是可以有案外包"},{"start":5723.507,"end":5726.55,"text":"讓臺灣也可以參與這些國防產業這個就是一個可以多贏的局面如果他之前他沒有辦法交給我們是因為俄烏戰爭還有疫情的關係所以他的產業鏈沒有辦法及時供應如果我們現在把他的外包的這個部分放在重點未來"},{"start":5744.745,"end":5749.907,"text":"有可能他把他做不來的現在推到我們台灣來幫他做代工然後回去以後又再高價再賣回台灣這是我們非常擔心的所以這一點先在這裡提醒所以這個不是我們認為其實是可行的他應該要交給我們不管他用什麼樣的方式可是我們在明年的預算上面已經看到他不斷的在加價囉所以我們在這裡再一次提醒因為他還沒有就任可是他未來的做法是以"},{"start":5772.857,"end":5772.997,"text":"什麼方向?"},{"start":5800.725,"end":5805.05,"text":"經濟外交跟融幫計畫所以我們跟美國之間的外交也必須建立在共同的經濟基礎上所以除了投資創造就業我們的採購比如說我們台灣的很多採購也可以增加對美國的採購啊這個才很重視包括國會議員"},{"start":5817.906,"end":5827.895,"text":"你講的我們過去就是一直這樣做可是我們採購了很多我們要的結果都沒有這是我們要提醒的所以我們就要把這個說清楚嘛也讓外界了解你之前說得不夠清楚嗎之前說得不夠清楚嗎我們現在要說的是他現在再度入主他的做法可能會更強烈因為他必須面對選民的交代他已經78歲了所以在這裡你過去如果講得不夠清楚那你未來我相信也不會很清楚因為他的態度會比你更強烈"},{"start":5846.75,"end":5849.794,"text":"不是你跟他一樣而是他贊助了所有全球的主導地位所以我們能不能抗衡能不能不卑不亢就像剛剛部長講的我們要不卑不亢這是我們在這裡他還沒就職之前我們先提的未來還有機會那另外還要談到的就是因為部長"},{"start":5864.953,"end":5876.856,"text":"上來以後當然你要接續外交的這個工作不是那麼容易可是像之前南非要求我們撤出首都我們的代表處要撤出首都的部分現在還有立陶宛這樣子的一個狀況那我想要請教一下因為過去我們的2021年的時候外交部宣布要在波羅的海立陶宛的首都設立駐立陶宛台灣代表處雖然我們後來英文改成台灣"},{"start":5893.241,"end":5913.971,"text":"台灣跟台灣人其實是不一樣的可是我們也說服自己說這是一樣而且是一個重大的突破不管這會不會對我們有所矮化或者是我們自我安慰可是當時蔡前總統在臉書還特別指出這是重要的外交突破然後是別具意義的重要外交的一個成果當時"},{"start":5916.414,"end":5945.009,"text":"政府還由台三投資管理顧問公司大概有2億歐元的中東歐投資基金去投資立陶宛三家新創公司包括雷射公司、生技醫療公司還有一個金融科技公司那其中像雷射公司由台三協助跟台灣的企業建立合作的關係而且透過委託公研院成立的"},{"start":5946.533,"end":5963.225,"text":"《超快雷射研發創新中心》有6個合作案政府還鼓勵台灣的半導體供應鏈業者採用立陶宛的雷射技術我想要請教就是說還有金融科技公司我們投資案是中東歐"},{"start":5964.326,"end":5965.226,"text":"政府投資立陶宛已經花費在中東歐投資基金有多少經費?"},{"start":5984.765,"end":6013.607,"text":"剛剛委員提到不管是雷射、生技、金融這些投融資有它的程序那事實上金額也不大啦但是具有代表性意義比如說我們以雷射這個雷射世界上最好的雷射這個飛鳥雷射是立陶宛的國寶欸能夠跟我們合作把它發揚光大對我們的部長部長那個多好你可以用書面到時候再提供給委員會我現在要問的是政府投資立陶宛花費的中東歐投資基金有多少經費"},{"start":6014.918,"end":6022,"text":"像你剛講的那個數位金融那大概是千萬美金那以雷射這個我們跟公園院的合作我們是合資那這些都在我想總共大概在兩千萬美金這個數字我跟妳講投融資是經過嚴格的審查這是商業行為護理雙贏我們要看到我們的護理跟雙贏在哪裡請把立法院的部份的移動相關資料"},{"start":6044.045,"end":6063.767,"text":"提供相關的資料就是投資基金有多少的經費然後你說的共榮雙贏的這個部分也把結果在一個禮拜之內提供給我們相關的資料好不好好那就這個部分抱歉跟主席借一點點時間我們在之前就是外交部以二屋戰爭中"},{"start":6065.64,"end":6069.743,"text":"吳東地區醫院招砲火摧毀然後我們用公務預算我們大概編了3000萬美金的這樣的經費是要提供給烏克蘭居民在初級醫療照護設備的這個部分我們那時候簽的備忘錄我想請教一下我們在裡面我們要的資料比如說我們因為有要求要台灣"},{"start":6090.88,"end":6091,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6112.247,"end":6113.808,"text":"我們同仁會請他準備資料我們希望要有數量還要有他的種類因為他是要提供這是救命的我們已經給錢給一段時間了如果"},{"start":6128.882,"end":6129.382,"text":"我跟委員報告這裏面有5家主要的廠商跟他的數量產品"},{"start":6149.512,"end":6158.789,"text":"這是在台灣買的還是在歐洲買的?包括像明基、山峰、加碩生意、伊洋科技、宇星生意、重鼎股份有限公司有數量嗎?有,後面有數量"},{"start":6161.873,"end":6184.458,"text":"請教一下這是在臺灣採購還是在歐洲買的在歐洲這是我們雙方的合作案那我們是他在歐洲買所以你常念的剛剛部長念的這些公司在歐洲都有他的場上都有他的據點然後都有現貨是嗎你的意思是這樣嗎講清楚"},{"start":6187.578,"end":6196.256,"text":"是不是從歐洲有現貨我現在不太清楚但是他確實是台商供應的然後由捷克的這個協會去採購的"},{"start":6197.867,"end":6201.85,"text":"我在這裡先提醒一下,裡面有一家加碩生醫,這個部分也是我們臺商的新創公司,也是臺灣的新創公司,他做的愛普定免疫定量分析儀,他做的是發言指數用的,這個部分我們不曉得一個新創公司傑克為什麼會知道,因為他買的是要烏克蘭戰場上需要的,聽我講完,因為時間的關係,不好意思。"},{"start":6224.305,"end":6233.132,"text":"這個部分如果在台灣他根本沒有在歐洲有這樣子的一個現貨我不知道為什麼他要去買這個東西再加上發言指數是在特別比如說我們在醫療上面要測說你為什麼發言要找出問題點可是你在戰場上面不是被炸斷手腳不然就是有很嚴重的傷害一看那就是有發言還要做這樣的發言指數的測試嗎我們到底為什麼是買這些東西我現在只是先提供一個"},{"start":6252.728,"end":6258.21,"text":"他可能還有其他的問題我們需要的是數量因為你既然花了我們國人的納稅錢而且這是救命錢你有沒有用到位我剛剛說的這個加速聲音他過去有什麼樣的記錄在我們買快篩的時候他曾經代表國家隊他花了我們4億多的錢跟韓國進口結果他是不合格的"},{"start":6277.881,"end":6278.921,"text":"馬文君委員馬文君委員"},{"start":6315.931,"end":6319.333,"text":"謝謝主席主席有請林佳龍部長請林部長部長早安委員長因為這個美國總統昨天揭曉確定由川普再度回來白宮擔任美國的總統所以今天當然我們就會來關注的是有關於接下來台灣跟美國之間的關係"},{"start":6341.625,"end":6345.37,"text":"但是事實上昨天在同樣外交委員會的時候我已經針對我們的國安局蔡明彥蔡局長有問過了那麼當時蔡局長很明確的說就是不論是民主黨或共和黨那麼過去其實民進黨的執政現在來到了第九年"},{"start":6357.904,"end":6375.651,"text":"那麼我們其實同樣的都有面對過共和黨的總統就是川普我們也面對過現任的拜登的民主黨的總統所以說不論是誰上台或是哪一個政黨來執政這個所謂的至終然後挺台或友台的政策其實是不會改變的"},{"start":6376.511,"end":6388.374,"text":"不過我們看到其實這是中央社所整理的川普對於臺灣的政策他曾經說過如果中國進入臺灣那當然他是用進入這個字眼他會對中國課徵15%到20%的關稅對中的政策他則是認為反正中國的商品要進來我就要拉高關稅至少60%"},{"start":6399.756,"end":6421.323,"text":"那麼在關稅政策當中呢他是認為其實所有的商品進入到美國都要有20%的統一稅率對中國當然就會拉到60%到100%那麼大家外界都認為說川普就是所謂的孤立主義喔所以這整體來看起來確實符合昨天蔡局長所說的不過"},{"start":6422.779,"end":6445.246,"text":"就外交專業來看的話這個面向可以感覺上是川普的手段似乎會更凌厲那麼他有提到的部分其實我們關注的當然除了中國之外他特別提到的是在有關於進口關稅到美國的部分那麼這個部分外交部跟經濟的相關單位有沒有做一些了解是不是真的會如他所言"},{"start":6445.666,"end":6466.983,"text":"因為當然昨天我聽到吳志忠政次他在接受訪問的時候也說了選舉的時候難免有一些選舉語言那麼對於外交部來說現在這個川普確定上任之後有沒有好好的去研析川普的這些言論到底是選舉語言還是未來可能他的外交政策的執行方向"},{"start":6467.728,"end":6491.061,"text":"跟委員報告其實當他當選之後這就不只是選舉語言我們要很認真的看待因為政見他也是對選民的承諾他可能會落實為政策但是我認為用孤立主義去形容川普的路線是不太精確啦他比較是屬於在保護主義啦那他其實也是需要藉由全球的力量來幫助美國偉大"},{"start":6492.762,"end":6516.027,"text":"台灣就是可以幫助美國偉大的嘛所以我們這是一種夥伴關係我覺得這個是最深層最根本的以前是從地緣政治台灣是不是人家棋子現在不是台灣本身有主體性大家也知道第二台灣是一個民主國家跟他們的美國政府包括行政跟立法尤其是國會我們的這個價值觀是一致再來我們現在怎麼讓經濟利益一致啦"},{"start":6516.947,"end":6526.638,"text":"這個就是我們要跟著他的政策方向我們要做一點調整他有些他的政策方向是全球性的對台灣來講這個是不只是威脅他更是機會台灣要沉著應變我們要把這個挑戰轉化成我們"},{"start":6535.988,"end":6538.209,"text":"所以部長的言下之意就是接下來在經貿上面的交流包括您剛剛特別提到的榮邦計畫是非常重要的"},{"start":6556.314,"end":6573.83,"text":"但是除了臺美之間的關係之外因為本席也特別關注就是我們現在跟歐洲盟邦的部分我知道前面剛剛幾位委員都特別提到了有關於中東歐不論是投資或是融資的部分但是在這個質詢之前我想先舉一個例子"},{"start":6574.471,"end":6592.782,"text":"就是過去有一個非常有趣的這個故事的形容是說商人到非洲去看到非洲的朋友之前呢都沒有穿鞋子比較樂觀的商人就會說哇這個是充滿了機會啊因為大家都需要一雙鞋子但是呢悲觀主義者就會說不得了了他們都不穿鞋我們不用賣了"},{"start":6594.123,"end":6618.403,"text":"這個當然是一個過去台商在行走江湖的時候很喜歡講的故事但是我想要問的就是目前川普上台之後對於歐洲的變化跟關心包括我們怎麼來看那麼接下來在中東歐的部分我想舉一個我整理出來的數據這個是跟經濟部國貿署所要到的在2016年我們跟歐洲還有中東歐這些國家的貿易數字"},{"start":6619.864,"end":6623.067,"text":"所以顯然其實我們在經貿上面是拉升的這個也跟部長希望要做的一樣但是有沒有特別去了解就是說川普上來對我們的歐洲友邦或盟邦或者是我們在經營歐洲關係上面會不會有什麼樣的改變"},{"start":6644.905,"end":6658.059,"text":"其實G7他們有一些包括美國跟歐洲英法德意等國家其實我們跟G7這些年來我想對他們對台海和平穩定的關心包括自由航行權"},{"start":6660.301,"end":6677.048,"text":"這個是因為現在整個全球化雖然有一點倒退到區域主義或者比較屬於雙邊主義但基本上台海的一個和平穩定是符合包括美國跟歐洲的國家的共同利益那我們現在在歐洲因為空間是非常大"},{"start":6678.296,"end":6698.006,"text":"所以你看到這個成長因為為什麼?因為俄烏戰爭發生之後其實即使俄烏戰爭未來就是說結束了其實俄羅斯的威脅還在那他們更能夠體會到中國對台灣的威脅所以這個是在印太戰略裡面的兩端現在已經結為一體這個做基礎然後我們跟他經貿有很多互補"},{"start":6698.826,"end":6705.248,"text":"所以這個就是我們現在的開拓的空間比如說這個中東歐的計畫我們現在進步要擴展到波蘭因為波蘭未來在烏克蘭的重建裡面可能扮演很重要的角色那比如蔡英文前總統這次到法國我們的企業界去法國會覺得說那我們台積電投資在德國希望也投資在法國法國的高科技包括航太包括非常多的這個其實跟台灣也是可以合作的"},{"start":6726.016,"end":6743.338,"text":"所以我覺得歐洲的這個不只是地緣政治上未來跟我們是聯動的而且在經貿利益上還有很大的空間所以我在講說總和外交就是如果價值外交是愛情啦理念相近嘛那經濟外交就是麵包啊"},{"start":6745.048,"end":6747.37,"text":"要吃得飽所以我們現在總和外交不能夠只是講說價值怎麼樣也要講這一個經濟上的利益的關係那跟川普我很聽懂他的語言因為我做過民選的"},{"start":6760.041,"end":6766.204,"text":"立法委員：市長：所以我很能夠體會我現在蠻欣賞他的講話要順這個趨勢來布局啦所以我覺得這自助人助我們台灣的重要性我們不要小看"},{"start":6778.049,"end":6783.896,"text":"我們也不要把威脅極大化,用到什麼以美論、依賴論、依軍論,我們要自信的,勇敢自信世界同行,走向新的偉大的美國,那台灣也能夠偉大,我現在應該去找出這個交集"},{"start":6796.15,"end":6819.316,"text":"因為本席有特別找出來就是說目前以我們輸出日銀行因為我上一屆是在財政委員會那麼我們輸出日銀行有一個中東歐的融資基金那麼目前的這個融資基金當然它的方案就是立陶宛、匈牙利、斯洛伐克、捷克還有剛剛部長提到的波蘭這個我們馬上會有波蘭的大使要即將到位那麼我對他當然也不以期望我有先跟你報告對"},{"start":6821.437,"end":6838.925,"text":"那個劉大使即將要即將赴任對 那麼我的意思是其實政府也有給資源包括這個輸出銀行那麼奧地利、斯洛伐克那但是目前只有立陶宛、捷克跟斯洛伐克我也期許我們現在在過去已經有這樣的一個配套方案在這裡的時候也希望這個外交單位跟經濟單位能夠一起攜手那麼就像是部長您所說的"},{"start":6847.389,"end":6859.93,"text":"那麼另外當然國發會還有就是中東歐的投資基金所以其實我們是有兩大支柱來往前那麼目前到底除了波蘭之外另外的這些中東歐國家是不是也可以有更多的規劃"},{"start":6861.109,"end":6890.41,"text":"是 其實在以波蘭跟所謂的捷克、斯洛伐克、立陶宛等波羅的海國家有將近6千萬那在未來我想俄烏戰爭總是會結束啦我們未來其實這個地方對於我們來說是處女地那現在的一個經營之後開發結果我們跟捷克的關係很明顯其實最重要的是他們過去也受蘇聯的統治跟現在俄羅斯的威脅所以雖然說麵包很重要"},{"start":6891.531,"end":6911.25,"text":"愛情也是很重要的啦所以在這個方面總和外交的路線那整個中東歐不只是這個投資投融資工具我認為怎麼樣讓我們的科技啊跟他們合作的時候去共創合作在一些可以雙贏的產業項目上這個他們每個國家都有自己在當時啊前蘇聯時代"},{"start":6912.651,"end":6912.691,"text":"主席"},{"start":6932.825,"end":6951.23,"text":"是很好的那麼這個部分呢外交部或是相關的經濟單位其實也要拿出實證不然的話常常就會因為比如說什麼住管改名啦又或者是說相關的事情就會影響到兩邊的合作因為實質的合作其實是對雙邊國家都有利益的同意謝謝謝謝林楚瑩委員部長請回接下來我們請徐巧欣委員上台質詢"},{"start":6969.513,"end":6970.76,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請林部長"},{"start":6979.553,"end":7001.846,"text":"部長好今天大家都關心美國選舉的結果那川普這個人呢他的個性被大家外界普遍都認為他是比較不充滿確定性的以美國利益為至上的所以他的競選口號在第一任的時候才會叫第二任的時候才會叫做這個Make American Great Again"},{"start":7002.606,"end":7017.836,"text":"所以,他雖然充滿不確定性,但是,從另外,美國的台灣通普瑞哲曾經說過,川普是世界美國近代史上對防衛台灣最不以為然的總統。"},{"start":7018.877,"end":7034.423,"text":"川普談價格不談價值講利益不重道義那我目前跟美國的關係剛好不是這樣子很多都是感情牌那請問政府認為在這個部分當川普以講求利益為主"},{"start":7034.943,"end":7053.483,"text":"那感情微腐的狀況之下．你覺得臺美的關係．在川普跟拜登上來這個交接之後．會有哪一些差別．請注意喔我沒有說美國會不支持臺灣．我要問的是會有哪一些的差別．是外交部現在所評估的"},{"start":7055.105,"end":7073.436,"text":"其實在川普當總統的時候很多對台灣政策的創新跟突破那是過去沒有我剛剛講因為他充滿不確定性所以2016年的川普跟2024年的川普未必一樣他的發言也經過這幾年來說上上下下上串下跳"},{"start":7074.326,"end":7097.478,"text":"他2016年的說法版本跟他現在的說法版本是不一樣的所以我們要怎麼樣去因應這樣子的一個不確定性的危機這是我要請教你的問題我想經濟對他來講是目的也是一個手段所以他會用關稅然後當然一定的保護主義可是這個當然對方方會有影響他其實是來做一個"},{"start":7098.618,"end":7100.038,"text":"這也是為什麼美國這次選給川普的主要原因之一"},{"start":7125.405,"end":7142.501,"text":"但是他在這次選舉期間的政見有好幾樣跟台灣是有關的他在競選時期曾說過要求台灣的國防預算要提升至5到10%的GDP的這個部分那國防部昨天已經有表態說不可能了"},{"start":7143.641,"end":7158.168,"text":"這是美國特朗普總統的政見我們又知道他是一個非常強悍的人也不知道他當選之後會不會有這樣子的一個強迫當然我們看一下這張同影片"},{"start":7158.948,"end":7160.83,"text":"我們從107年開始我們的國防預算是1.95%那到了114年度變成2.45%增加了2885億元增幅已經高達80.47%如果明年115年增加GDP到"},{"start":7184.168,"end":7190.551,"text":"到這個10%的話要再增加7.55的GDP會直接直接往上飆升成這個模樣那請問另外一部分我會問國防部但我今天要問外交部的是請問這方面要怎麼幫國防部去跟美方來溝通說我們沒有辦法提供10%的國防預算因為這個圖太可怕了"},{"start":7212.578,"end":7231.113,"text":"這是我試算出來的是幾兆是2.96兆2.6兆的數字所以我們本來才多少我們又已經這個政府預算就很多了民主黨他們要求我們是希望提高到3%所以離2.45%左右是差了一點點"},{"start":7232.734,"end":7248.921,"text":"可是現在他們的標準達到5到10%．如果真的上到10%的話．會變成2.6兆的國防預算．所以我相信部長的角色．配合國防部昨天說不可能．一定勢必要去跟美方溝通．請問我們有什麼條件．什麼方式．什麼方向來跟美國溝通"},{"start":7255.093,"end":7279.67,"text":"簡單跟委員報告我就會跟他這樣溝通啦我們過去8年來這個國防預算持續增加將近未來也會繼續增加那這個未來的部分因為我們其實計算國防預算我們要去說明其實台灣現在退補會台灣現在全社會任性台灣現在兵役從4個月恢復到1年其實這個都是國防預算啦"},{"start":7280.29,"end":7282.811,"text":"部長您這樣講就不對了因為在川普他的這個政策裡面是分成軍購費用跟保護費用這件事您知道嗎?"},{"start":7297.725,"end":7300.147,"text":"部長,他把軍購跟保護,也就是服務費用分成兩筆,這是不同的"},{"start":7316.098,"end":7335.496,"text":"在他的論述裏面如果您有仔細看的話他沒有駐軍啦我們自己在支持我們龐大的這個軍力嘛現在這個服役又提早一年我意思是說這個計算的基礎以及他的項目因為我覺得大方向我們跟他並沒有不一樣只是說"},{"start":7336.757,"end":7354.451,"text":"這個所謂5%或10%他講的這個數字這個是一個趨勢嘛那我們的趨勢本來就持續在增加中所以我會用這種方式溝通說我不是 我不同意你的主張我們的主張有一致的方向但是怎麼做也要有執行力嘛比如說我們採購了200億的美金的這個軍購案啊他都還沒有辦法給我們啊他也有點理虧啊"},{"start":7360.956,"end":7365.519,"text":"所以我是覺得國際談判上這個沒錯這一點我支持林佳龍部長他們欠我們的武器他們要給我們我們才能去跟他購買新的武器不能很多武器都延遲交付然後你叫我給你10%的GDP暴增成如此這個大家台灣民眾能如何接受呢我們台灣的財政也無法負擔所以麻煩我們部長朝這個方向去跟美方做溝通"},{"start":7388.672,"end":7418.101,"text":"我剛談到的是保護費的概念不要講保護費啦服務費好不好這樣講比較好聽不然好像被人家黑到收什麼為事錢就是說他是分成服務的費用也就是說要不要來出兵來協助台灣等等或駐軍等等的費用跟軍事採購的費用我想請教的是這一筆服務費從外交部的角度來說你們會跟他溝通要付還是不付我們並沒有付給他啦我們付給自己啦"},{"start":7418.831,"end":7419.051,"text":"美國叫我們做的"},{"start":7435.305,"end":7437.067,"text":"川普上任後對於烏克蘭的自由協助可能會停止因為川普對於烏克蘭的戰爭一直是不以為然的"},{"start":7456.608,"end":7473.491,"text":"但是川普他又是一個我不要講他視錢如命啦但是他對美國的利益至上這件事情是無從置諱的但拜登政府任內提供了包含是PDA以及台灣的相關的軍購的融資的服務"},{"start":7474.372,"end":7494.732,"text":"那所以呢基本上在這個部分FMF可能在共和黨上任之後會停止這一部分的援助那請問如果拜登政府提供給我們的免費軍援也就是PDA跟FMF停止的時候我們要怎麼協助國防部跟共和黨溝通請他們繼續免費的提供台灣"},{"start":7499.603,"end":7518.966,"text":"軍援其實美國在通過國會的法案它是有約束力的那姑且不講這個PTA跟FNF它的NDA、NDIS這有具體的一些撥款或者是一些項目不過不一定只是來自於就是所謂的Predential Jordan Authority這樣的一個機制那都可以改啊"},{"start":7520.339,"end":7523.823,"text":"我認為國會選舉我們有持續觀察共和黨的國會議員挺台的力道挺台的力道高對高挺台的力道高對歸高但是問題是要給錢的時候那又是另外一回事我們自己如果採購武器自己付錢是很自然的"},{"start":7540.1,"end":7564.059,"text":"但是PDA跟EMF都是美國免費提供軍援給台灣這是拜登上任以後才有的政策所以我們是在講如果川普他們去改了這個政策變成不提供了那我們外交部有沒有管到或是我們會不會向美方來針對這個部分做抗議不會"},{"start":7565.22,"end":7568.242,"text":"主席借我一分鐘我問最後一個問題喔川普呢他在競選期間他說台灣搶走美國的半導體部長您同意他說的這句話嗎"},{"start":7595.133,"end":7612.691,"text":"這句話是有問題的啊但是就是所謂因為其實半導體產業我其實計算過台灣現在整個在所有的供應鏈我們占不到兩成啊對啊我們的這個主要是製造這個端嘛所以我們台灣賺一塊美國是賺三塊"},{"start":7614.172,"end":7618.073,"text":"不只是台積電外資佔的六七成喔連他的這個整個供應鏈裡面部長 這個道理我都懂所以我才替台灣人報不平所以我們都做到這樣了川普總統還說台灣搶了美國的晶片所以他未來會不會在這方面課重稅或對台灣下重手這是外交部要強力去關注的您同意嗎對 我們都密切注意當中"},{"start":7643.683,"end":7668.472,"text":"那如果有任何的變動是他真的按照他過去的說法因為我也坦白跟部長說他可能過去說他未來不一定會做這也是有可能的我並沒有要給外交部過大的壓力但如果你們觀察到真的他繼續針對台灣的半導體要求我們提供任何的不合理的服務項目或者是關稅或者是金錢、經濟等等的話"},{"start":7670.413,"end":7673.495,"text":"外交部會向美方嚴正提出抗議嗎?"},{"start":7684.258,"end":7684.978,"text":"其實我跟委員報告美國的這些半導體的專家、業者還有媒體都已經替我們說了"},{"start":7703.148,"end":7704.149,"text":"他替我們說不如我們自己說如果別人都幫我們說但我們卻不幫自己說的話我們一定要幫自己說"},{"start":7718.426,"end":7731.81,"text":"對,所以請部長喔,如果川普總統他當選以後繼續維持選舉期間的選舉口號跟步調沒有改變的話請外交部一定要嚴正的提出譴責保護台灣的半導體產業,可以嗎?"},{"start":7734.926,"end":7748.254,"text":"我覺得他是個法治國家就要看他提的法案具體的內容啦沒有我就說假使發生這種狀況嘛因為這是有可能發生的狀況嘛沒有當然最好我們都樂得開心啊但假使國會也通過了美國總統也這麼做了那"},{"start":7750.755,"end":7759.401,"text":"我們是不是就要發表嚴正的抗議並且要實質上的去做溝通你是不是要承諾有這件事情而不是說我們一定會去溝通的其他人有幫我們講話我們就算了我們要為自己發聲保留台灣的半導體這是我們的經濟命脈從國民黨早期執政的時候一個豆漿會然後呢想出我們要做半導體一路一路一路到現在我們在大樹之下乘涼"},{"start":7778.194,"end":7778.234,"text":"謝謝時間到了謝謝"},{"start":7806.495,"end":7835.194,"text":"謝謝徐巧欣委員部長請回待會兒洪森漢委員質詢完畢之後休息5分鐘好那我們有請這個下一位是林益君委員上台發言"},{"start":7836.852,"end":7838.178,"text":"謝謝主席 有請林部長"},{"start":7850.326,"end":7851.427,"text":"我沒有想過這個問題"},{"start":7872.344,"end":7884.689,"text":"你知道為什麼我要這樣問嗎?因為本席very concerned very very worried部長你知道本席問這樣有沒有不妥啊?你知道我是在關心你還是在憂心啊?你知道為什麼你覺得你對本席這個說法應該是有點熟悉吧?我覺得應該說"},{"start":7892.432,"end":7909.1,"text":"其實民主國家選舉競爭跟政黨的問題是常態所以我們要用歡喜心來迎接美國的民意產生的新總統我們跟他是一個夥伴關係所以不用憂心的就是說要關心不要憂心"},{"start":7909.6,"end":7933.159,"text":"對,但是不然你可能不知道,因為你們的吳次長對這次美國大選說了這些話,那到底是關心還是憂心?那你認為吳次長這樣的說法有沒有過多嗎?他已經澄清了,因為那個不是訪問,結果他那個後來有更正,那個,那個是...但是媒體應該不可能,因為他沒有講的這個字而有這樣...有有有,他真的去更正了耶,那家媒體因為他不是訪問,然後他自己也誤解了,所以他就澄清了"},{"start":7933.86,"end":7936.562,"text":"我們請同仁拿給委員參考我們也知道身為外交人員對於美國這麼重要的選舉其實不應該有這樣的字眼所以以後可能要注意一下然後我剛才因為徐曉勳委員有詢問了但是我還是想要再詢問一下就是"},{"start":7952.156,"end":7953.617,"text":"部長你應該很有印象就是選前川普曾經說過我們台灣的國防經費應該提高到GDP的10%但是以台灣現在114年的預估GDP26.4兆的10%來計算就是2.64兆"},{"start":7969.563,"end":7990.738,"text":"那這樣佔總稅出的84%那也就是說我們目前國防預算的將近要5倍那這是無論如何都是我們不可能做得到的事情那請問部長你覺得川普就任後會不會強硬的要求台灣要提高國防預算其實不管5%或40%這是一個期許啦就是我們要有自衛防衛的決心也要透過我們的能力來呈現就這一點"},{"start":7996.127,"end":8019.274,"text":"百分之十是非常高欸我說這個是一個期許的方向要增加我就告訴他說我們也在增加過去半年已經被增那我們未來也會持續在被增啦因為部長你也知道川普過去的作為啦你認為他是不是屬於那種比較難預測的領導人呢我倒不會欸我覺得其實民主本來就充滿了各種可能性"},{"start":8021.215,"end":8024.718,"text":"那你們有沒有針對明年川普要上台之後可能的台美互動做一些兵推呢還是說如果他們真的強硬我們要要求那麼提高這樣的國防預算外交部要如何因應呢這個有沒有做過內部的推演有"},{"start":8040.689,"end":8057.429,"text":"如果你們有做過了這樣推演,你們是打算如何的因應呢?我們事先其實就採取一些溝通,然後事後當然也要因應。所以就這個部分,我們,他現在人事的安排,我們又更清楚會知道他政策的內容,跟輕重環節。"},{"start":8058.61,"end":8077.438,"text":"所以我們會一步一步的來隨著他的這個交接期間他的組織政府也要經過國會同意一般來講這些像國務卿等等這個都要經過大概到明年3月國會正式這個開議之後我們這個交接期就是一個很好去溝通"},{"start":8078.238,"end":8093.483,"text":"事實上他執政過4年的時間川普政府下面的不管是過去的官員或現在的這些參與決策的幕僚我們都有在聯繫也有很溝通的管道"},{"start":8094.403,"end":8121.582,"text":"這次的美國總統大選的話美國國內有一些社會撕裂的情況是非常嚴重的對於彼此的各種的攻擊所以選舉期間也發現過好多的激烈的行為就是川普兩次差點被暗殺然後選舉前兩天投票率好像也有一些炸彈恐嚇的案件那各地的投票所也陸續加裝了防彈的玻璃那部長你認為選後會再次出現美國這種大規模的暴動的可能性有多高呢?"},{"start":8123.016,"end":8136.706,"text":"應該沒有吧?因為他的一個勝選是還蠻清楚的,不是說少數的票啦,或者是說這個計算的問題啦。那賀錦麗副總統,總統候選他會表達恭賀,而且就是說會協助他政權順利的交接。所以我想這次選舉應該不會有什麼後續這種大的這種社會的這種分老啦。"},{"start":8152.52,"end":8153.601,"text":"報告委員 瓜地馬拉、貝里斯、聖露西亞、聖文森、聖克里斯多普五個國家"},{"start":8172.33,"end":8188.009,"text":"台灣在加勒比海有拉丁美洲有大概有7個邦加國那你巴拉圭和海地這些兩個國家有去嗎海地在南美洲比較遠未來會去那海地因為現在的狀況這兩個國家就是這一次沒有去嗎對不對對會找機會去"},{"start":8189.651,"end":8204.105,"text":"那是不是邦交關係不穩定還是因為有個別原因呢今年沒有去的國家會不會跟我們斷交啊因為你都去了五個國家這兩個國家沒去會不會他們就會會不會會有這種斷交的危險啊那部長你外交部有沒有掌握"},{"start":8205.471,"end":8205.752,"text":"外交部部長"},{"start":8236.732,"end":8257.706,"text":"原首外交尤其是出訪當然對國家很重要我們這個外交部主要是協助總統府做好幕僚的作業跟第一線的這些行政工作有關相關出訪的地點時間會由總統府他如果有這樣的安排的話他會對外公布"},{"start":8258.79,"end":8272.996,"text":"現在剛好遇到美國大選剛好有結果年底將會是美國政府的一個過渡時期所以這個時間如果安排出訪過境美國這樣你覺得會恰當嗎?你覺得呢?還是覺得明年上任的時候外交部才做這樣的安排呢?"},{"start":8274.236,"end":8296.946,"text":"就是目前並沒有這樣的一個就是說規劃有的話會跟委員報告我希望外交部站在專業評估的立場上國際情勢還有兩岸的情況要如實呈報作為總統出訪安全的依歸不要讓台灣人民在短時間又受到了驚擾這樣好謝謝部長然後部長請回謝謝"},{"start":8302.745,"end":8305.669,"text":"陸委會副主委陸委會選前有沒有做過兩套劇本的兵推?"},{"start":8322.613,"end":8344.109,"text":"我們沒有做過嚴格的兵推但是每一種情況我們大概都預想過那我們也知道兩岸關係現在相牽在美中的關係上面陸委會預判明年川普就任之後兩岸關係會出現怎樣的變動呢那副主委你對兩岸關係未來幾年的發展你是樂觀還是悲觀看待呢"},{"start":8347.165,"end":8365.028,"text":"因為這一次的勝負狀態很明顯我們本來預期說它會是很膠著的狀況甚至可能有點像2020年的狀況但是昨天看起來勝負狀態很明顯所以短期之內台海局勢不會因為有空窗期然後出現變數"},{"start":8366.601,"end":8387.416,"text":"那未來的話,我覺得現在可能很多也,大家都媒體上看到了,大陸可能比我們更頭痛,所以其實不只台灣跟大陸,跟全世界各國都在看說美國政府,新政府的政策方向跟走向,所以"},{"start":8388.797,"end":8409.029,"text":"目前來說的話沒有人能夠說出一個很明確的方向不過我個人覺得說美國的兩黨他在對台灣跟對中國的這個政策基本上態度跟立場都還蠻一致的所以短期之內應該不會有什麼特別的變化"},{"start":8409.329,"end":8409.849,"text":"其實委員所提到的大陸的學者或者是一些媒體"},{"start":8437.557,"end":8460.584,"text":"正反意見都有啦,正反意見都有那大陸的高層或是他們的政府決策高層他們是不會透露他們的意向的那會透露會講的通常都在政策上面沒有實質的影響力所以我們在媒體上面所看到或是這些學者所講的我們只是作為一個參考但是他們的作用到底在哪裡我們還是會觀察"},{"start":8463.525,"end":8467.649,"text":"主席再給我一點時間接著本席想要請問有關共軍山東號的航空母艦前幾天有估計上個週末會通過台灣南端跟呂宋島之間的巴林塘海峽會進入西太平洋那據說跟著山東號一起出港的還有綜合補給艦還有054A的巡防艦跟052D的驅逐艦這是一個很完整的艦隊的規模"},{"start":8488.766,"end":8492.548,"text":"那針對中國解放軍這樣的動態就有學者會分析這是針對河南眾議院訪問台灣在進行恫嚇嗎?那主委你認為這可能性有多大呢?還有那中國會不會趁著這一次的航空母艦的編隊遠航在美國大選之後又再次舉行聯合歷艦2024期的軍演?那主委你判斷有沒有這種可能性?這種可能性有多大?"},{"start":8514.88,"end":8534.392,"text":"我剛剛跟委員報告我們本來會擔心說美國的選舉的這個勝負局勢如果他太接近的話那可能會有一些力量他會覺得說可以趁著這個空窗期來做一些挑釁的動作"},{"start":8535.613,"end":8559.697,"text":"但是昨天這樣看起來的話勝負很明確所以我相信這些變數不太會產生那如果說現在中共的不管是他們山東建也好或其他建也好現在正是這個中共例行演訓的一段期間所以他們各類的演訓都有那我們認為說這個不是特別針對這個美國總統選舉是"},{"start":8565.317,"end":8572.325,"text":"希望陸委會對於兩岸的未來還是要多多的對話和交流,千萬不要讓國人再次的陷入恐慌跟恐懼。"},{"start":8592.967,"end":8596.091,"text":"接下來我們請羅美琳委員上台質詢謝謝主席 有請林部長有請林部長"},{"start":8615.107,"end":8625.376,"text":"特朗普即將要重訪白宮,那部長早上你有提到就是說在臺美這個強健的夥伴關係基礎上面美國跨黨派對臺灣的支持跟對臺灣的安全承諾都會延續那我也很認同那剛剛部長更是提到說我們要勇敢自信美國偉大我們會跟著偉大"},{"start":8639.327,"end":8658.455,"text":"川普並非拜登,所以拜登對台政策,川普不可能全面跟隨。本期在上個月有看到華府智庫布魯金斯研究所資深研究員普瑞澤和何瑞恩提到,川普當選對台灣的態度會"},{"start":8661.076,"end":8677.759,"text":"向他對其他的外交議題一樣難以預測與其他會交易的心態來處理台灣的議題甚至會要求他認為說會為美國提供更多的利益比如說增加軍購還有投資等等那這種"},{"start":8678.8,"end":8685.206,"text":"教育的這個方式,部長你會不會擔心會讓台灣成為美中談判中的這個籌碼,他這個心態,我不曉得部長你有沒有這個想法那這跟拜登時代,川普這個跟拜登時代他對台灣採取這個深化經濟關係加強安全合作還有提升台灣的國際地位的做法是有很大的不同"},{"start":8701.903,"end":8702.023,"text":"主席"},{"start":8719.958,"end":8721.259,"text":"跟委員報告有關21世紀臺美貿易倡議第一階段"},{"start":8739.469,"end":8764.087,"text":"的談判已經確定了,年底前會宣布完成所有的程序至於第二階段也在談判中也相當有進展當然因為原來12個項目裡面也還有第三階段所以我們會循序漸進先確保第一階段如期通過第二階段的談判現在也是順利在進行中"},{"start":8764.847,"end":8786.472,"text":"所以這個21世紀這個貿易的倡議他是一個就是分階段的那後面那因為川普的一個他的這個對於貿易的看法我們也必須要納入考慮那另外一個是避免雙重瞌睡這個是比較跨黨派"},{"start":8787.712,"end":8814.26,"text":"因應很多要投資美國其實像基斯蘭很多國家跟台灣都有簽所以這方面我們會持續努力看起來也是會獲得一定的支持其他的有關投資美國因為因應著未來可能就是晶片法案的執行新的可能性的發展我們也密切注意我們也會增加對美國的投資跟採購"},{"start":8815.8,"end":8837.001,"text":"我覺得都要因應他新總統有新的名義嘛那台美關係要好啊一定是要做相應的我們來加強那至於說每個總統有他的領導風格我倒不認為說這裡面會涉及難以預測大家都可以預測得到啊因為他的他的Mega他的讓美國再次偉大的主張很"},{"start":8838.211,"end":8839.973,"text":"其實部長對川普好像還蠻了解的喔早上的質詢我看你還蠻自信的應該說這是一個可能的變局但是有挑戰有機會那到底我們結果會怎麼樣也取決於我們自己的作為這個不是已經決定結果的"},{"start":8857.051,"end":8857.592,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":8873.871,"end":8899.477,"text":"市長我想請教就是說我剛有提到畢竟是兩個不同的一個政黨領導人也都不一樣不可能做法會跟我們像拜登時代是一模一樣他全面接收他的這個對台政策那我剛一起提到就是說像我們在21世紀貿易的這個協議這個倡議的話本席有提到說為什麼會問這一題其實跟他過去的態度有關因為川普不是第一次當總統"},{"start":8900.777,"end":8922.203,"text":"之前就當總統那之前他對台灣的這個貿易談判是怎麼樣的狀況的我們所知道就是說美國跟台灣的這個貿易談判在川普期間是完全是被擱置的部長你應該這個可以理解然後不管是在這個任何形式投資的協議或是自由貿易協定或是要把台灣納入任何更廣泛的貿易架構等等其實我們是沒有任何進展的"},{"start":8922.623,"end":8940.389,"text":"在上一次他當總統的時候為什麼本席會問說那我們跟拜登政府在簽訂的這些倡議這些協定會不會因為新政府上來呢然後有所改變那是因為對應回去他過去在當總統的時候對台灣的一些貿易談判的一些態度"},{"start":8941.641,"end":8969.269,"text":"所以我想對於就是說所謂的簽訂自由貿易協定這個當然是一個大的挑戰不過臺美關係像避免雙重瞌睡這個是互利也很重要要投資美國的配套那至於說臺美21世紀貿易創意這樣的一個機制已經進行第一階段First Agreement已經通過了現在只是把最後行政權益完成我們很有信心所以你很有信心說會有所發展但是未來的還沒有"},{"start":8971.055,"end":8973.538,"text":"今天早上有很多委員提到所謂的晶片法"},{"start":8989.176,"end":9012.293,"text":"因為川普在10月底接受這個Podcast的節目訪問的時候他有再次的質疑這個晶片法對於這個外國公司的一些補助甚至有學者在推論就是說川普當選之後可能會推翻拜登政府呢他依這個晶片法提供給台積電比如說在亞利桑那州鳳凰鎮他有設廠嘛他有提供66億美元的這個補助部長你認為這個事情會發生嗎"},{"start":9017.336,"end":9036.443,"text":"因為他會吸引他去投資嘛因為這對美國有利那我想未來是不是就是說在金面法案未來會有新的法我們當然密切注意那另外一個就是免稅這兩個是他當時去吸引包括台積電事實上去美國投資的一個誘因那"},{"start":9038.044,"end":9063.973,"text":"因為最重要是說這個成果對美國來講他已經某種程度達到投資美國所以後續怎麼去處理我在談的就是說不要把它變成一個零和的那好他如果沒有去給予這個未來更這個未來進一步的補助那當然這個供應鏈就不是那麼容易在美國嘛他是為他自己的利益補助的啊"},{"start":9064.993,"end":9087.729,"text":"不是只是為了說台積電去補助所以這個是我覺得現在隨著就是選舉過後很多事情會沉澱下來那大家很務實的來面對找出共同的基礎我覺得台美關係我很有信心不只是理念相近我們是厲害與共"},{"start":9088.63,"end":9103.185,"text":"那在這種情形之下台灣要有信心不要再像最近有人操作以美論、以賴論、以軍論一大堆以啦台灣要有自信我們要做我們自己該做要展現決心跟能力來保護我們自己"},{"start":9103.926,"end":9105.687,"text":"這一點我跟委員報告就是說國人可以要關心"},{"start":9118.837,"end":9121.22,"text":"我們希望說,我們現在是面對一個不同情境的一個狀況所以外交部應該因應不同的這個情境來做一個政策的一些因應這是我們給予外交部一個提醒"},{"start":9138.82,"end":9138.88,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":9159.113,"end":9160.334,"text":"臺灣會變成一個美中談判的籌碼或是臺灣會不會被邊緣化這是我們所擔心的這個問題"},{"start":9181.562,"end":9208.742,"text":"當然也跟川普的對外關係有很大的關係因為他畢竟覺得說這個盟友關係、夥伴關係不是那麼重要這是他從上一屆的時候我們就有看到所以不同的政府、不同的一些政策、不同的態度當然我們希望外交部能夠神聖以對樂觀當然是要樂觀可是我們如何去應變這整個政策的改變我想這是應該外交部要跟各部會去做通盤的來做討論跟合作的部分"},{"start":9209.102,"end":9219.318,"text":"尤其我們的這個軟實力我們的供應力如此強如何維持維持繼續維持我們的這競爭優勢我在想這一點是外交部跟各部會應該要來審慎來處理的部分"},{"start":9221.943,"end":9244.842,"text":"我同意委員,臺美關係歷經很多的階段在現在為止,我想川普總統他形成的政府他的主張我們要很重視他現在的人事任命我們也密切關注後續行政跟立法,特別是總統跟國會的關係其實他共同形成了一些政策"},{"start":9245.402,"end":9267.134,"text":"美國是一個多元政治一個民主國家所以我們要了解它的一個運作的機制那我想外交部尤其是我們駐美代表處我們其實在選前我們的各種的對情勢的評估我們都有納入今天這種選舉結果所以我們也在第一時間都按照我們原來的規劃在推展中所以我要講的就是說"},{"start":9269.536,"end":9283.977,"text":"選舉競爭跟政黨輪替是民主國家的常態那他有很長的名義會增加川普未來對外交更大的一個籌碼這個是事實那他也想不佔了屈人之兵所以他現在講一句話全世界都要聽啊"},{"start":9285.491,"end":9311.883,"text":"我們對岸的中國也是很注意所以我是覺得我們不要好像是限縮在台灣好像是針對台灣全世界都在看我們要沉著的應處我想說這個是有一些挑戰但是也充滿機會因為這個在變局中台灣的角色怎麼樣能夠自助人助怎麼樣能夠確保我們自己國家的安全"},{"start":9312.683,"end":9313.524,"text":"謝謝龍美林委員 林部長請回"},{"start":9340.801,"end":9342.062,"text":"請沈博洋委員上台質詢"},{"start":9367.393,"end":9382.618,"text":"部長好、副主委好那因為有些問題剛好兩個都有所以我就想說先一次性的那第一個還是要覺得趙偉真的很厲害因為我們昨天最擔心的事情就是大選結果沒有出來結果出來了所以我們今天反而可以問這個問題那這個最近因為因應美國的選舉結果已經出來了"},{"start":9391.681,"end":9408.497,"text":"那不管是美國還是日本對於現在的這一個經濟安全的這一個保障是越來越多了那我在別的這個不管是在經濟部跟國防部都有特別提到這個所謂供應鏈的問題那因為有紅色供應鏈啊非紅色供應鏈啊等等之類的那這個是這個"},{"start":9409.858,"end":9425.476,"text":"最近因為有台積電這個流出的問題那我已經問了經濟部我昨天也有問國安局那其實裡面最重要的事情就是我在第三點這邊寫的那三家華為、比特大陸跟算能科技那我為什麼要問這個是因為他們是白手套"},{"start":9427.117,"end":9448.435,"text":"算能科技是白手套,它屬於比特大陸他們作為白手套把先進的AI晶片留到華為那這件事情經濟部當時我在問的時候他們說這個華為並沒有在他們的這個清單裡面那當時是因為說第一個是因為他們沒有及時的更新美國的清單因為美國的清單太早了"},{"start":9448.635,"end":9450.076,"text":"因為外交部跟陸委會都在戰略性高科技貨品出口實體管理名單的小組"},{"start":9467.784,"end":9483.294,"text":"所以我想問一下兩位關於這件事情的意見因為我是不太希望就是說到最後經濟部又說因為其他的部會有一些別的想法所以他們不覺得這個東西應該放在這個清單裡所以想問一下外交部跟陸委會對這件事情的意見"},{"start":9486.135,"end":9513.186,"text":"跟委員報告就是說因為對於晶片是就是戰略性的產業所以它的出口管制我想有個國際的規範之外其實美國也透過FED4就是美、台、日、韓在形成一個管制的一個規範所以我們基本上就是要配合這個方面至於個案的發生我想就是"},{"start":9515.693,"end":9533.926,"text":"臺積電也對外做說明這個部分也會未來做檢討所以大的方向是在整個出國管制上的國際合作臺灣會參加我們也必須要配合因為中國還是一個最大的競爭對手對美國對臺灣都是如此"},{"start":9538.929,"end":9555.126,"text":"謝謝部長,因為華為一直都不在清單裡面我自己是覺得有點不太理想不管怎樣華為在中國是非常具有代表性的一家公司那它如果沒有在清單裡面剩下就算這些彼特大陸跟算能科技在中間運作我們都沒有辦法去做一些相關的處置那副主委不知道有...謝謝"},{"start":9557.716,"end":9579.296,"text":"陸委會確實在這個小組裡面但是這個小組最近確實在review一些還要新增一些名單新增一些名單那目前是還沒有確定目前還沒有確定那根據最近的一些個案的發生等等我想這個小組都會"},{"start":9581.118,"end":9608.651,"text":"都會加以考慮謝謝副主委因為大概在兩個多我應該是大概在兩個多又要再review一次那我那時候會再做一次的追蹤那接下來就是說這一個剛剛前面這個美林委員也有提到這全球供應鏈現在是中國跟非中國所以呢這一個部分我覺得對我們的風險評估真的是非常的重要那但是就是說因為現在供應鏈分化其實台商他都會有這些風險的評估那不知道陸委會現在對於台商這方面的一些"},{"start":9610.131,"end":9637.127,"text":"一些建議或者說風險評估現在進行的狀況是如何?我覺得台商其實分成他們的類型不太一樣有一些是上市貴公司的這種台商有一種是我們傳統的台商那很多台商是去了三十幾年的那這些每一類台商他們所面對的這個風險跟機會都不太相同"},{"start":9638.527,"end":9664.267,"text":"那但是其實全部的台商面對到同一個最大的問題就是說第一個就是中國的相關的所謂的國安法或是反間諜法等等就是人身安全的問題這個陸委會都有在警告嗎?這個我們都有在警告那但是個別的台商他們所面對的狀況不太一樣譬如說現在因為中國大陸的經濟問題"},{"start":9666.311,"end":9692.402,"text":"那麼他們過去對於這些中小企業的台商可能想要騰龍換鳥或是想要有一點不是很重視但是現在又開始拿政策拿很多獎勵出來希望他們留下來所以大家所面對的狀況是不太一樣那有些人他有辦法離開有些人他有辦法轉到其他國家"},{"start":9692.722,"end":9707.24,"text":"但是有些人他可能就乾脆停止經營這個狀況不翼而逐但是我覺得總的來看的話臺灣對中國的投資是逐年下降的那這個是我們可以看到的趨勢是很明顯的"},{"start":9708.621,"end":9730.428,"text":"謝謝,那是希望因為經濟部某種程度當然是要去一些輔導但經濟部現在對於不管是這一個非紅供應鏈的這件事情又或者說制裁清單看起來還沒有完全跟上那其實他這方面的知識還是需要仰賴陸委會所以希望陸委會能夠給經濟部多一些這方面的協助那接下來這一件事情部長可能可以先休息一下因為這個完全是陸委會的業務"},{"start":9733.35,"end":9747.198,"text":"這個我先跳過因為這個我昨天問過國防部我想先問這一件事情因為現在時間的關係就是說呢因為最近有在講說就是假設他今天是這個中國人"},{"start":9749.059,"end":9771.619,"text":"那他要在台灣參選等等之類的這些我們本來就已經有相對應的一些規範但有時候會有另外一種情形就是說譬如說他今天是他是台灣但是他在其他的地方有取得中國的護照那很多時候時其實在台商身上因為我們自己在家裡做生意我們也知道其實中國在某一段時間其實在海外是常常在發中國護照的"},{"start":9772.719,"end":9794.791,"text":"現在有兩件事情一個就是剛剛前面這個事情就是說這個其實不是我們官方的所以是無關但是他是無戶籍的國民他有中華人民共和國的一個護照那在這樣的一個情形裡面他在台灣的投票權應該是如何這是第一個問題第二個問題就是最近新聞剛好有在傳就是某辦公室的這個助理那他是這個中國籍"},{"start":9797.772,"end":9823.379,"text":"中國籍之後他現在來到台灣來到台灣之後因為他也是在這一個不分區的名單上面我知道陸委會之前有做過相關的解釋是用國際法第20條但因為國際法第20條它是中華民國兼具外國國籍者我們是因為把它放在中華民國國民嗎所以做一個擴張的解釋不知道陸委會對這件事情有沒有一個新的解釋因為這有可能是我們最近就可能會遇到的一個問題所以就這兩點想問一下陸委會的一個見解"},{"start":9829.372,"end":9832.797,"text":"我先從後面這個問題回答回來"},{"start":9835.342,"end":9861.609,"text":"我們的兩岸條例跟國籍法它其實規定了不同的樣態我們的兩岸條例是說你入籍就是說大陸人民取得中華民國的身份證之後差不多10年你可以有參政權但是我們的國籍法是規定你要擔任公職你必須你不能有雙重國籍"},{"start":9863.39,"end":9886.988,"text":"那所以這兩套法律他在解釋上面會產生一個衝突那所以如果說真的要把這個問題解決我們陸委會到目前為止我們從去年到現在我們對這個問題的看法是一貫的也就是說兩岸人民關係條例只保障你的參政權但是你真的要認公職的時候你要根據國際法就回到國際法"},{"start":9888.168,"end":9891.03,"text":"國際法的主管單位是內政部,內政部可能要有比較明確的解釋"},{"start":9903.716,"end":9932.065,"text":"所以這個部分我們到陸委會到目前的態度都是這樣好那因為這件事情我那個韓國的那個我們可以先暫緩就是說這件事情我們知道陸委會他有一個基本的解釋那我們可能會把這個解釋再去問內政部先確保因為我覺得這個是一定要在很早的時候就先確認那到底是要在他就任之前就要先申請然後過了一年之後再怎樣我覺得這種事情一定要先確認好我覺得規則要先說好那講到規則我就想問最後一個問題就是這次劉德華來台灣演唱"},{"start":9933.125,"end":9960.591,"text":"當然這邊還是要跟大家說明一下就是很多人說他是政協那他其實不是啦他並至少在官方的資料裡面我們看不到他是政協委員那他只是這一個那個電影什麼XX什麼協會的一個什麼副主席但是我在這邊並不是要問劉德華本身我想是問的是說因為陸委會當時有出了一個這個結論就是說沒有傷害台灣的言論所以同意演出"},{"start":9961.591,"end":9978.83,"text":"我對這個沒有意見我想問的就是因為那個紅線現在看起來就是有沒有傷害台灣言論但有沒有傷害台灣言論有點抽象那因為以後一定會有更多的事情那以後這個紅線大概是劃在哪裡如果會不會有一個比較精準對於傷害台灣言論的一個解釋"},{"start":9981.039,"end":9990.55,"text":"我們對於傷害台灣的言論解釋就是說你不可以貶低台灣的地位做一個國家的地位那這個是我們最基本的要求"},{"start":9996.136,"end":10014.907,"text":"至於劉德華這個事情我們的立場是一貫的因為很多人說他是什麼政協或是什麼但是我們查過了他並沒有政協的官方資料而且說實在政協在中國的黨政體制裡面是一個比較邊緣的位置"},{"start":10016.488,"end":10030.073,"text":"我們陸委會在審查的時候不會以有沒有當政協來作為標準如果說現化在政協的話可能很多的中國的這個"},{"start":10032.148,"end":10048.459,"text":"官方的人士或是什麼黨政軍的人士都沒有辦法來對啦 如果政協諮詢委員還包含進去那就更多了對 對 對 對所以我們的線就是這樣就是說你要來可以那我們的基本要求就是你不能夠貶低台灣的地位"},{"start":10049.42,"end":10073.149,"text":"那如果有發生這樣的情況我們會請你離境那就像前一陣子有這個在西門町有發生搶旗子的那件事情我們也是立刻請他離境那這是我們的最基本的標準那當然其他的官方人士來的話我們可能還有別的特殊考慮那個就是個案處理case by case"},{"start":10073.769,"end":10074.87,"text":"謝謝沈博洋委員,副主委請回"},{"start":10105.066,"end":10107.267,"text":"接下來我們請洪森漢委員上台質詢稍早的修正待會楊從英委員質詢完畢後休息5分鐘謝謝主席那個請林部長跟請林部長還有副主委"},{"start":10135.252,"end":10150.023,"text":"兩位不好意思我的聲音因為這幾天在立法院的事件還是受傷的狀況但我還是想要請問因為大家都講到當然美國大選的結果現在出來那我們知道"},{"start":10151.304,"end":10166.813,"text":"臺灣政府其實一直以來我們跟共和黨民主黨的關係都很緊密我想這部分大家不會多做質疑但確實在民主黨跟共和黨的政策上面還是有一些地方會是有不同"},{"start":10168.274,"end":10187.913,"text":"那尤其是我想剛才前面有幾位委員都問到了尤其是我們看到川普總統可能接下來在貿易戰也包括在科技管制上面的做法目前判斷起來是有可能會比這個拜登政府來的更去強硬跟嚴格"},{"start":10191.236,"end":10216.51,"text":"這幾天尤其是這段時間我們的先進晶片流入到華為的這個事情坦白說很多的國際友人都跟我們表達對這件事情非常的關切我想先問一下部長跟副主委你們覺得我們在科技管制上面的管制作為有沒有需要加強的地方部長"},{"start":10220.688,"end":10242.831,"text":"當然瓦森納協定這個國際的規範因為我們沒辦法參加但我們是依這個做基礎可是在晶片上面的管制有很多新的規範那美國當然也透過FF4所謂的這個四個主要的我們非紅供應鏈就是美、台、日、韓我就只問說你覺得台灣我們的政府"},{"start":10243.551,"end":10254.942,"text":"對於這些科技跟經濟安全的管制的工作有沒有值得再強化跟加強的地方?有,我們還有需要再加強的地方不然你覺得哪些地方需要加強?"},{"start":10256.121,"end":10272.683,"text":"我想就是因為這個科技的發展日新月異有關於半導體這個部分整個供應鏈因為中國是一個很多民主國家認定的戰略競爭者所以對他的管制是比較嚴同樣的我想問副主委"},{"start":10276.152,"end":10276.612,"text":"臺灣有很多東西還要做"},{"start":10293.807,"end":10309.193,"text":"我舉個例子,現在我們通過了所謂的關鍵技術的管制,但是因為受限於種種因素,那些關鍵技術的管制它的範圍是不是足夠?"},{"start":10310.333,"end":10313.436,"text":"我這邊想要也跟兩位說我今天踩在一個執政黨立法委員的角度"},{"start":10330.402,"end":10353.539,"text":"兩位都會是我們整體國安團隊的成員對於現在尤其是川普總統上台以後當國際上面對於科技管制尤其是經濟安全下的科技管制越來越重視甚至要求越來越具體的時候我自己確實認為我們的經濟安全科技管制是不足夠的"},{"start":10355.154,"end":10367.921,"text":"我希望兩位也可以向我們整體的國安團隊也包括我們的財經部會應該要明確的反映這已經是攸關台灣整體利益的事情了"},{"start":10368.988,"end":10386.808,"text":"我們如果沒有做好,比方說像現在先進晶片流到華為這件事情不管它是在哪一個環節上面流到華為這很有可能會重傷國際對於台灣的信任我們都還不講說這個晶片有沒有流到對岸的武器上面"},{"start":10388.991,"end":10414.366,"text":"但這會重傷對台灣的信任所以當現在大家談到信任的供應鏈韌性的供應鏈安全的供應鏈的時候這對台灣來說是相當不利的事情尤其是在現在川普總統上任的時候我不去還是要想要表達從一個執政黨的委員非常非常關切這件事情希望兩位可以如實的向我們其他包括國安團隊來傳達這件事情這是第一個"},{"start":10417.427,"end":10423.51,"text":"第2個我想請教因為這幾天我們看到印度市長級的官員其實也來到台灣來談關於MOU移工引進MOU的問題"},{"start":10429.462,"end":10456.777,"text":"部長,我想你應該也認識我們其實在過去在台印關係的處理上面有一位陳牧民老師陳牧民老師在今年6月的時候他寫了一篇投書我念一下這篇投書的內容他是這樣寫的他說印度政府很容易根據他們自己的利益直接接洽台灣的各政府部門甚至直接談判"},{"start":10458.138,"end":10480.227,"text":"由於台灣政府各部會在新南向政策上都有自己的優先事項但彼此間沒有建立完整的跨部會協調機制這就給印度政府各個急迫的機會他的意思很簡單是當印度政府他們很靈活的來跟台灣的各個部會自行來做"},{"start":10481.294,"end":10481.494,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10497.116,"end":10498.377,"text":"同意,我跟委員也報告,確實啊"},{"start":10518.851,"end":10546.289,"text":"因為很多國家的外交部會是負責包括對外的經貿的談判可是台灣的情形因為過去外交部的角色比較沒有那麼明顯我們現在進來在行政院成立了經濟外交工作小組我們會加強這方面跨部會的協調那特別是通報制度所以行政院也已經通函各部會"},{"start":10547.19,"end":10570.453,"text":"未來一些就是說外國駐台的這個代表或者是大使這個所有跟我們的交涉是要通報就是包括外交部在內通報制度的建立是第一個我們才掌握資訊第二個不要被各個擊破甚至有一些地方我們發現陳木曉是提醒的事情有些地方"},{"start":10571.437,"end":10593.694,"text":"甚至他們透過一些企業來繞過我們政府的部門這個就是我們也要跟產業界來溝通因為如果沒有政府做後盾或最後像這些不管是立法或相關的行政的配合這個是我們總和外交的一部分"},{"start":10596.309,"end":10619.64,"text":"我不要指特定國家我們慢慢要把這一個經濟外交的機制檢討除了在行政面城市跨部會的小組之外我們外交部我們會跟各部會來協作通報制度的建立之外未來的對外的涉外事務比如說我們有外管也有很多的部會有派人我們也需要做一個總和團"},{"start":10620.12,"end":10620.4,"text":"外交部長"},{"start":10637.952,"end":10666.463,"text":"他的談判或者是溝通協調甚至各種利益上面的討論都可以強化我們的這個掌控的狀況我這部分還是要跟部長說最後一個我想問部長部長你知道其實我們有這個所謂南向政策裡面其實南向政策我們這幾年做了不少但是其實在印度的內部其實台灣還有一群我覺得蠻重要的盟友他們和台灣一樣其實信奉自由民主的價值也很了解印度"},{"start":10668.324,"end":10686.865,"text":"有助於增進台灣跟印度的關係,部長你知道這群盟友會是誰?就是包括藏人,我想他們是很重要的。部長,我們在跟這個印度的交流裡面,其實我自己認為有一個非常非常重要的一群,就是達艾拉馬帶領這個流亡藏人的社群。"},{"start":10689.227,"end":10713.284,"text":"這個社群他們在某個部分他們跟中國之間他們在在我不能講對抗但是他們也是在面對中國的各種的入侵跟侵害這部分其實跟台灣的利益是一樣的都在抵禦中國的侵擾那在他們一樣在扎根在印度扎根了65年所以他們對印度非常的熟悉包括印度的制度、語言、文化他們非常非常熟悉我只是想問部長部長你覺得"},{"start":10715.265,"end":10744.115,"text":"可不可以將這群印度的流氓藏人的社群納入臺灣的南向政策裡面的重要的夥伴你覺得我同意委員應該是要把他納入那尤其是在台印關係當中這個藏人他們可以作為一個很好的橋樑那隨著臺灣到印度的投資增加我們也很需要人才部長如果你在這邊說這些藏人的社群其實是臺灣在台印關係上或南向政策上非常重要的夥伴的話"},{"start":10744.835,"end":10765.545,"text":"那我覺得我們就要面對一件事情其實坦白說現在台灣的簽證制度還有很多對於這些印度的藏人其實相對不友善的地方他們可能想要來台灣交流或者來台灣求學來台灣學中文目前都還面對我們在整體簽證制度上面不少的阻礙"},{"start":10767.352,"end":10786.048,"text":"我的意思是很簡單因為我們過去面對這些藏人社群我們都把他們當作你們就是拿印度IC的無國籍的人我們之前一直會這樣認定但如果今天如部長說的我們把它視為我們在南向政策裡面的重要夥伴的話"},{"start":10786.949,"end":10809.014,"text":"那可能就可以有一些特別的政策不只是把他們視為無國籍的人的這樣子對待的可能性了部長你覺得我們有沒有可能在這個方向來朝向真的把他們當作是臺灣在台印關係裡面甚至是南向政策裡面的重要夥伴"},{"start":10814.981,"end":10828.196,"text":"政策方向上我是支持委員剛剛的主張那在具體做法我就請我們包括外交部跟跨部會我們來進行一些檢討那最近也因為我去政策的定位"},{"start":10829.498,"end":10830.279,"text":"法令檢討及修改"},{"start":10846.019,"end":10849.563,"text":"市長,我覺得最重要的事情就是你剛才說的,你也同意他們是我們的重要夥伴,不是只是一般的無國籍的人"},{"start":10864.741,"end":10891.621,"text":"這個認知跟這個認定是至關重要的事情在這個認定跟認知上面我們才有可以再往前在政策上面做出更好處理的空間所以我非常非常支持剛剛部長也覺得可以把他們當作重要夥伴那我覺得我們當然很願意來跟包括外交部甚至這個來討論我們怎麼在幫助他們權益上面可以做更多真正把他們當作是我們重要夥伴部長應該同意吧"},{"start":10892.381,"end":10892.581,"text":"謝謝紅山漢委員"},{"start":10922.657,"end":10922.677,"text":"楊瓊英議員"},{"start":10951.614,"end":10969.647,"text":"會長,我們首先來討論昨天川普當選了臺美關係會如何指標又是為何所以我們看到這個臺美關係的走向以往美方過去重申我們的是臺灣關係法、美中三公"},{"start":10971.047,"end":10989.441,"text":"以及美國對我們有六項保證為基本的一中政策的說法。首先請教部長,在他當選之後,就任之後,會不會有所改變?我們的看法在指標方面,以什麼為指標來看他的變動?請說明。"},{"start":10992.421,"end":11006.848,"text":"跟委員說明我想美台關係在過去制定台灣關係法之後也歷經很多次他們政黨輪替我們可以發現他的一致性跟延續性是在這個基礎上那當然行政立法兩個部門"},{"start":11008.409,"end":11031.62,"text":"我們就是怎麼樣來去鞏固甚至拓展美台的關係那至於說新的政府他的做法外界大概都有所報導就是更強調美國優先然後會用一些經濟工具做外交的手段然後在國際政治上就是對於"},{"start":11033.061,"end":11046.276,"text":"多邊主義可能比較保守會強調就是以美國為中心的雙邊這個主義那當然是不是能夠到有一些是單邊的主義這涉及到對於特定的議題我想川普總統他的"},{"start":11053.183,"end":11053.203,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":11073.773,"end":11086.264,"text":"並不是只有抗中因為美台關係其實互相之間要去協調我想在這個方面我們的外交空間可以因應新的變局"},{"start":11090.168,"end":11107.17,"text":"還是我對美台關係的一個發展是建立在這樣一個一致性跟延續性的一個判斷上那我們要因應他新總統的這個領導作風跟他的政策的重點要做一些因應的調整"},{"start":11107.93,"end":11134.301,"text":"本席之所以給部長充分的時間來說明但是本席還是要提醒部長因為川普的外交政策就正如你剛才說的他是偏向在美國的孤立而且他是保護主義者非常強烈反中、自中的氛圍當然是一貫性但是我要提醒的是反中不代表他就是有台你可以"},{"start":11135.881,"end":11151.965,"text":"認同這句話嗎?對,這個不等同。不等同。好,我們理念一致的時候,我首先要請問你,川普在這個競選的時候拋出一個台灣保護會,他說軍費要增加到GBT的10%的這個說法,你認為呢?你認為呢?我想這個怎麼去解讀齁?是。"},{"start":11158.886,"end":11160.547,"text":"2025年明年的預算我們增加了7.7%"},{"start":11183.222,"end":11211.264,"text":"6千多億的國防預算在這個那佔我們的總比GBT的2.45%如果說陳如他說的要10%GDP的10%等於26兆的2.6兆那我方怎麼應對請教好也就是他希望我們再增加我們告訴他我們過去有增加未來也會再增加未來會增加對那至於說因為我們增加的這一個之後我們一定會增加"},{"start":11212.403,"end":11224.131,"text":"我想除了中共的這個中共的這個軍事威脅越來越大我們當然相對在國防的預算的支出也會增加嘛這是為了我們自己啊我們好好討論也就是說"},{"start":11227.873,"end":11254.614,"text":"川普上任之後他之前所說的發表的言論那我們很緊張如果說要達到GPT的10%等於2.6兆那絕對會排擠到我們的社福啊我們的經濟啊等等對不對你認同那所以你剛才的說法就是說川普上任之後那麼我們的國防預算應該會增加是不是如此我們就持續在增加所以會增加嘛是不是"},{"start":11255.414,"end":11272.855,"text":"明年的預算就增加後面的趨勢也是如此所以我要注意的就是說我們不要排擠到如果真的一直持續的增加當然這個是總統的職權那麼一直在增加的時候如果真的達到他的10%你認為會不會"},{"start":11275.031,"end":11285.341,"text":"委員這個是一個所謂的一個他的方向是希望增加不是說5%10%的問題其實川普的這一些包括他的副總統這個J.D."},{"start":11285.341,"end":11289.485,"text":"Vance還有包括他一些國安的幕僚他提出了10%我方會接受嗎"},{"start":11290.319,"end":11310.966,"text":"沒有,他不是正式的提出,那個是一個方向啦好,就這個方向我請部長你也相識的去看川普時代那麼我們台美關係我們會怎麼樣的走向當然你身為部長這個是非常重要的工作所以本期要請教那麼在昨天你們是不是外交部有政府跟總統"},{"start":11311.766,"end":11314.448,"text":"昨天有沒有討論?有,我們本來週三也都有一些固定的會議也有討論"},{"start":11328.66,"end":11328.8,"text":"請教部長"},{"start":11347.847,"end":11362.739,"text":"新美台的關係一方面我想他重視選舉期間的一些訴求投資美國昨天你有沒有告訴總統建議總統我們必須要關注我們有報告也有在書面的報告上面當然總統也對外有發表"},{"start":11368.445,"end":11374.292,"text":"對川普總統的恭賀以外對美台關係的一個方向的宣示"},{"start":11378.464,"end":11382.705,"text":"也有宣示,請教2016年12月2日到2017年1月20日,就是川普在競選上一任的時候,我們蔡英文總統跟他打了電話,通了電話這一次在外交部會不會安排,我們的賴總統也跟準總統通電話"},{"start":11402.779,"end":11404.92,"text":"我們目前並沒有這樣的安排接下來本席要請問的就是說深化雙邊的經濟貿易關係在我們的整個臺美21世紀的貿易倡議當中非常重要"},{"start":11419.424,"end":11445.877,"text":"這個參議當中總共有11項包括辯解法規、農業、反貪污等等11項那麼臺美在去年6月份的時候華虎簽署了首批的協定那麼有望在今年年底要生效,是不是啊?對,就是那個First Agreement今年底會生效那請問川普上台之後你們掌控的情質會不會有所影響?會不會?"},{"start":11447.29,"end":11453.072,"text":"第二階段因為已經談判到一個階段了後面的二三階段我們必須因應他的對貿易的主張"},{"start":11463.558,"end":11464.058,"text":"會不會影響到我們年底要生效?"},{"start":11481.995,"end":11498.557,"text":"年底的生效是已經確定的啦就是美方我想在拜登政府還任內嘛還沒有到新政府上任那就是這有分階段所以我們在第二階段"},{"start":11499.571,"end":11523.755,"text":"很多共識也已經有了但是能不能把它完成我們還要再跟新政府來談部長我想這個是你負責任的一個談法所以本席剛開始也希望我們好不容易在去年6月份所簽訂那今年年底呢一定務必要達陣成功因為接下來所面臨的挑戰跟現在的政府有很多的方向似乎有所不同"},{"start":11524.715,"end":11541.168,"text":"我們要鞏固一些美台關係在拜登總統任內已經有共識的項目那另外除了美台21世紀貿易商業就是避免雙重瞌睡那我們也期待說在美國大選完之後到這個交接期間他們國會也是會開議能夠把它順利的完成"},{"start":11545.051,"end":11570.383,"text":"所以我要給你一句話也就是說我希望的我們當然我們要鞏固我們的安全但是我們也不能讓人家予取予求作為一個交易的籌碼這個變化就請部長對 一定是我們以國家的安全跟這個人民的利益為依據啦這個有關於這個國防預算也必須除了我們盡我們該盡的這個"},{"start":11573.584,"end":11574.644,"text":"主席我最後邀請一下我們陸委會"},{"start":11597.876,"end":11615.275,"text":"我剛剛在經濟委員會特別提出川普時代老一齡出口的國家是壓力很大因為他是高關稅這樣的一個情況之下對台目前宣示60%對其他的國家10到20%"},{"start":11616.616,"end":11643.619,"text":"那我請教我們我國目前的狀態我們所會受影響的那麼我們的國部長直接回答本席說臺商影響最大臺商影響最大你認為國部長回答的這一句話高關稅對大陸川普政府他目前規劃的是60%你認為國部長說的對臺商的影響最大這一句話你的解讀呢"},{"start":11645.164,"end":11668.264,"text":"我沒有仔細看過部長的講話但是如果假設美國真的對大陸的商品提高到60%的話因為我們台灣有很多高科技廠商是在大陸生產然後出口到美國的所以確實會對台灣的在大陸投資的這些廠商會有影響"},{"start":11669.586,"end":11684.304,"text":"這也會影響到說這些廠商會不會繼續留在大陸繼續生產的問題所以他可能會留到印度、越南或是回到台灣都有可能不瞭解狀態是如何但是身為陸委會"},{"start":11685.465,"end":11708.651,"text":"請你也務必看這個面向,怎麼樣協助我們的台商,因為台商在外也非常的辛苦,我們要怎麼樣協助他。因為郭部長有講了一句話,我再請外交部長回答我一句話。因為郭部長說什麼呢?說因應這個方向,有一個他的方法,就是境外。"},{"start":11709.761,"end":11711.642,"text":"有關委員這個政策我們現在布局基本上就是"},{"start":11730.768,"end":11747.673,"text":"我們怎麼樣去把我們的領先優勢確保然後去佈局全球所以半導體來講我們現在也有一個晶片戰略就技術深耕台灣產線佈局全球我們不是被迫什麼China plus one台灣 plus one我們要台灣 plus n你們回答本席的議題"},{"start":11748.513,"end":11748.993,"text":"有請一個例子跟委員分享"},{"start":11766.479,"end":11786.812,"text":"譬如說台建投資德國那個供應鏈我們就希望說能夠這歐洲國家能夠建立更韌性我們台灣政府也扮演一個角色類似這個例子日本也是那美國也同樣大概以這樣的方式我們不要把這個供應鏈的重組當威脅要當作一個我們佈局全球的職位"},{"start":11787.893,"end":11788.213,"text":"先休息五分鐘"},{"start":12152.079,"end":12153.82,"text":"賴清的政府對於川普重返白宮應該是有評估過"},{"start":12182.51,"end":12203.787,"text":"抱歉,有什麼?有沒有評估過?有!有評估過嗎?因為任何的可能性不管是賀錦麗當選或是川普重返白宮都有評估過所以我想應該不至於說會有發生像上一次押寶明顯而導致於要修復關係的一個狀況但是現在很多委員大家都關心嘛,現在"},{"start":12204.952,"end":12226.588,"text":"川普在上任之後他的所作所為跟四年前他第一任的時候可能也會有點不同因為畢竟世界環境也都在變但有些核心價值我想我們還是要堅守啊因為川普他之前當總統候選人選舉的期間啊其實不只一次公開發言攻擊我們台灣的奧運選手講說變性的疑雲啊"},{"start":12230.302,"end":12243.621,"text":"那過去他甚至在選舉前最後一天在賓州搖擺州的這個投票招式的時候他又再一次暗示講到就是說奧運的這個資格可能是有問題部長有沒有看到這樣的一個訊息"},{"start":12245.256,"end":12271.826,"text":"奧運是全世界公認這是一個最高的一個運動競技的我們的林玉婷選手她拿到金牌奧運的資格也審查沒有問題了她是貨真價實的金牌選手嘛對不對那但是川普他在過去選舉的時候或甚至說選前造勢的時候都一而再再而三去提到這件事情我們沒有看到我們外交部有任何反應"},{"start":12273.922,"end":12290.356,"text":"我們就像我剛剛講的當然我們就是相信奧運的一個就是競賽的規則所得到的機會即便他是現在自由世界最高領導人即便他現在當選了但是他能夠用這樣似是而非的言論去攻擊我們的選手嗎"},{"start":12291.656,"end":12312.89,"text":"因為他沒有指名,但是因為他講的當然先前有一些脈絡,所以像路宏委員講的,我們就是捍衛我們這個台灣的奧運的這個選手,他們得到的獎牌啊。是,部長,所以捍衛我們的選手,如果說任何國家任何人講出是適合非言論攻擊我們的選手,我們都應該要跳出來?"},{"start":12314.167,"end":12326.424,"text":"澄清、主張、表達我們的立場,是吧?對,就像委員現在問我,我就是這樣表達。是,但是那川普現在講這樣的一個部分,我們怎麼沒有看我們的駐美代表駐美辦事處有任何的一個回應?"},{"start":12327.827,"end":12330.31,"text":"我們要像經濟部長之前被問到的時候一樣經濟部長在被選友講是說台灣要付費經濟部長回應是說川普又沒有直接來問我"},{"start":12344.403,"end":12363.505,"text":"所以我不用回答他?可是他現在就是公開的在媒體上造勢是!是!那有任何人如果說他這樣子持續的攻擊我們難道不用去嚴正的立場表達嗎?所以川普沒有直接問你你就不用回應川普的話?"},{"start":12364.059,"end":12372.004,"text":"我要選舉期間我每一件事情我都要去回應嗎?他指到我們啊?重點是他指到我們?部長,你要這樣子,這樣你不覺得這樣子是唾棉自乾嗎?"},{"start":12379.367,"end":12403.72,"text":"我們的選手不管台灣的選手、新北的選手都好他就是貨真價實的奧運金牌選手為什麼會持續我們外交部過去到現在沒有任何溝通的部分嗎我們有沒有試著跟共和黨溝通試著跟川普陣營溝通就是說你影射的其實真的不是事實奧運也已經證明了"},{"start":12404.68,"end":12426.626,"text":"能不能不要再拿這樣的例子了?你要怎麼樣競選,那是你的競選的方式,我們尊重。因為我們本來也沒有辦法守護他們的選情啊。沒有沒有,他如果講不對的事情,我們也不能夠說就什麼尊重啊。我是說如果委員問我們的表態,是跟你一樣的啊。為什麼我們沒有任何的溝通管道去捍衛我們的主張呢?我們過去到現在有沒有試著跟共和黨溝通過?有沒有試著跟川普陣營溝通過?"},{"start":12429.69,"end":12451.903,"text":"沒有這個事情溝通但是我們的態度很一致很清楚這就是部長證實了就是部長證實了今天這個人如果說他是美國老大哥當選人他講什麼東西似是而非即便是侮辱到我們的選手了即便是影射到我們的選手了我們沒有溝通"},{"start":12453.423,"end":12465.407,"text":"因為那個發言的脈絡請委員再去了解因為他沒有指明啦但是我也不是說沒有指明我們就不能夠表示我們的態度像委員問我我就是表示啊跟你一樣的態度啊部長我們今天站在同一個立場今天是我們任何一個選手選手沒有黨派"},{"start":12474.468,"end":12474.528,"text":"立陶宛"},{"start":12498.967,"end":12517.56,"text":"這個前兩天委員有質詢又請教到你你也說要極力的一個爭取因為說立陶宛現在可能會助立陶宛台灣代表處的這個名稱說要改變這是他們可能現在的新任的總統他們新任的總理來去做表示的那我們現在溝通的狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":12521.636,"end":12524.337,"text":"有多少信心認為我們不會被改名?還是說有可能會被改名?"},{"start":12551.943,"end":12575.199,"text":"任何的改變都需要經過雙方的討論想要請教你說你們跟對方溝通現在他們的態度非常強硬他12月27號大選完還在籌組政府現在現在政府是看守政府所以其實還沒有跟新的政府溝通還沒有重新新的政府那你這樣子你在那邊一直我們住處都有跟他們這個跨黨的都有溝通那什麼時候會溝通"},{"start":12580.643,"end":12583.092,"text":"因為看起來這件事情是他們想要做是"},{"start":12585.629,"end":12609.657,"text":"所以什麼時候我們會溝通那你有多少把握認為是說這個名字不會被改掉還是說其實看起來新任政府上任了擋不住了因為我們可能跟過去的政府關係好一點所以現在新任政府上任之後我們沒有辦法沒有把握會改變各位我來報告齁他現在政府還在籌組中他這個聯合政府會找哪一個政黨來加入齁也要等到確定是嗎部長這個是這個是國安不能講還是說你現在還沒有掌握"},{"start":12614.599,"end":12615.519,"text":"但是重點是說到底我們有多少把握"},{"start":12643.57,"end":12667.683,"text":"總統大委我都強調一件事情對外交來講我多一分的寬容因為所有的第一線的外交人員在外面就是代表中華民國我們都是中華民國一份子沒有黨派之分但是重點是我們現在面臨到什麼樣的情況不要報喜不報憂不要每一次狀況發生了然後我們對國內都講說啊大內宣沒事沒事好像所有"},{"start":12668.803,"end":12693.025,"text":"全世界大家現在都很支持台灣獨立實際上沒有啊你們只是在偷渡你們政治意識形態啊那現在到底國際社會的現實怎麼樣你總是要讓我們國內大家了解啊所以這才是我現在問是說你到底有多少把握還是三個月後、兩個月後等他們先任政府上任立陶宛這邊第一個當初2021年民進黨政府大內宣拍拍手"},{"start":12693.786,"end":12719.885,"text":"祝台灣代表處祝立陶宛台灣代表處突然間換一個招牌又回來了因為這是台立雙方透過政府那麼所達成的共識才有設處的名稱所以你現在沒有把握維持不變我們當然是要維持不變那有多少把握我們相信就是說透過溝通雙邊我們希望能夠不受任何的影響"},{"start":12724.476,"end":12724.636,"text":"加油!"},{"start":12747.765,"end":12763.391,"text":"中華民國靠各位外交同仁但是絕對不是拿外交出口轉內銷我們不要自我麻痹政治意識形態真的可以放一邊謝謝謝謝你的支持謝謝洪孟楷委員部長請回接下來我們請賴氏寶委員上台質詢"},{"start":12782.055,"end":12785.878,"text":"謝謝主席各位先進有請林部長請林部長部長你好委員好順著剛才紅委員的一個題目這個川普今天選舉過程當中今年初到"},{"start":12811.283,"end":12837.169,"text":"這個這次的最近的選舉講了兩次喔說台灣偷了這個美國的晶片產業然後最近又講他在campaign這個在搖擺中的時候又講了說我們又偷走了他們的獎牌就變性能的問題言下之意啊他就變台灣是小偷小偷國家偷晶片"},{"start":12838.319,"end":12839,"text":"臺灣是小偷,偷世界的獎牌"},{"start":12856.733,"end":12861.976,"text":"結果我們都沒有去澄清你沒有去什麼的阿你跟我說沒人聽到阿我們沒辦法我們是小國沒人聽到阿阿他那裡大國聽到的人這麼多阿美國人就這樣聽進去了阿喔台灣是小偷這件事外交部責任非常重大勒你都這樣嚇死這樣剛才美國嚇死不如我嚇一下或者是請問你要不要去登個廣告"},{"start":12882.79,"end":12884.411,"text":"我跟委員報告美國各大媒體都不同意川普總統的講法很多都講出我們的主張包括晶片的事情包括奧運獎牌的事情"},{"start":12904.181,"end":12922.176,"text":"阿你要發聲阿 最少你要出個聲音阿 登個廣告也好阿 在華盛頓Post在什麼地方也登個廣告 要三禮拜登個廣告澄清一下說 我們不是小偷阿 我們不是你的朋友阿我想美國人沒有說就接受這種說法阿你又不是美國人 你是台灣阿"},{"start":12924.898,"end":12934.167,"text":"晶片業者還有這些美國的媒體都已經講得很清楚我們這個供應鏈裡面是分工的關係阿你不要跟他們澄清這東西根深蒂固人家美國人就收進去阿我們多少的美國的親友都說你台灣小偷勒偷我們的晶片業勒偷國際的獎牌勒"},{"start":12949.281,"end":12954.903,"text":"沒有啦!我們幫他賺錢啦!我們賺一塊他賺三塊啊!我們這個就算台積電也是外資占多數啊!這股啊!有啦!我有機會我都在講他們來的訪問團啊!或我們的住處都有在講!主動登個廣告可以登廣告的什麼?我們講齁!媒體就會有在報導我們的講法了啊!你要正式的announce啊!"},{"start":12977.779,"end":12997.166,"text":"對不對?你用minister of foreign affairs啊!你!在講人家!對不對?請問你啦!你現在!還是以前問的問題?台下黨選的你有沒有安排賴清德總統?過去美國有沒有?去我們的中南美的邦交國啊!過去美國!"},{"start":12998.066,"end":13002.751,"text":"我想這個總統出訪會由總統府阿他們如果有確定的這個時間、地點跟對象會對外宣布我們當然都會做好幕僚作業阿"},{"start":13018.163,"end":13026.629,"text":"時機成熟的就跟委員報告這個由總統府同意來發言因為那種操作可能會引起一些誤會所以我要澄清就這樣因為沒有的事沒有在運作結果有人這樣報導我們只好去把它澄清"},{"start":13045.06,"end":13072.297,"text":"我正在猜喔是不是我們這個這個上一次操作成功啊這一次來講的話大概是怎樣人家不願意喔不不這樣子喔這個東西所以快點澄清人家都還沒講要澄清很奇怪的東西現在好吧這個我我回到另外今天想問的問題了是前幾天總質詢問你喔吼你30秒說沒有這個是"},{"start":13075.598,"end":13103.637,"text":"我叫拉北市長來講來來來,你們就已經請問你,來來來請問你,你不懂得怎麼說,市長說市長我們有沒有1.3億去投入Orange Hill聖文森的Orange Hill,有沒有那個是一個蔬菜這個種苗的研發計畫但是跟大麻一點關係都沒有來來來,不要緊張喔所以是有這個事,不是沒有,只是部長你一定要承認"},{"start":13105.294,"end":13129.142,"text":"我們有投入這個錢那個計畫是公開資訊在我們國外基金的網頁上都查得到我跟你講所以部長你別講太快來來來我跟委員報告我有到那個Orange Hill我覺得他那個包括鳳梨還有這個馬鈴薯還有相關的這個育苗做得很成功但是沒有大麻啦而且不要急來2023年的Nature"},{"start":13135.359,"end":13135.979,"text":"這是一個很大的地點耶"},{"start":13158.375,"end":13184.05,"text":"包括他們那個副總理啊來台灣的我這次還見到他那是一個地名啦很大的啦我還問他說為什麼叫Orange Hill沒有採Orange他說對齁我們這裡沒有橘子欸我們這裡是其他的水果我真的有問啦你說這不是笑話啦不是笑話的笑話Orange Hill是當地附近最大的大麻的研發產生中心啦你知道嗎這是個地名啦"},{"start":13185.382,"end":13185.822,"text":"2019 年聖文森的官方獎"},{"start":13216.143,"end":13218.484,"text":"這是我們外交部,下面這個不是喔"},{"start":13233.049,"end":13235.311,"text":"請問你聖文森的人口多少?11萬人口11萬人口,你跟我說個白天說個白天好像多大的國家11萬人口請問他的土地多大?"},{"start":13262.911,"end":13264.412,"text":"委員提醒我們一定會嚴加注意"},{"start":13292.142,"end":13295.022,"text":"因為我一直強烈主張大麻不可以合法化"},{"start":13321.701,"end":13343.534,"text":"然後你這樣的一個舉動讓外界錯覺民進黨新任的賴金的政府要把它合法化因為你們去支持他嘛經過委員的質詢我們說明之後就有澄清的機會還要是感謝不然人家可能會誤會因為他很小你說土地是我們的百分之一是吧"},{"start":13344.318,"end":13346.939,"text":"就是現在交易委員會就在討論這個"},{"start":13371.764,"end":13398.159,"text":"我們怎麼樣防止青少年服用大碼等等的2018年的預算報告你看娛樂用大碼出口到鄰國我都查認清楚我就是不斷的講就是不斷要提醒你不要助紂為虐不要為了一點點的那個外交的利益傷害了中華民國在世界上的一個名譽的時候我們在助長大碼不好"},{"start":13398.769,"end":13399.469,"text":"接下來我們請李坤城委員上台質詢"},{"start":13435.947,"end":13436.247,"text":"謝謝處席,我們請林部長"},{"start":13448.909,"end":13476.526,"text":"部長好部長辛苦了這個川普當選這個第47任的這個美國的總統那昨天的這個美國的股市是大漲1500點左右啦那我上來之前我看一下今天的這個台灣股市也漲了200多點那台積電也有漲那因為經濟能夠反映一些政治經濟的情況嘛股市那想請問一下這個部長怎麼看這個美股漲台股也漲"},{"start":13478.561,"end":13500.074,"text":"我覺得政治如果穩定的時候其實對投資者都是一個好的消息那因為美國的大選期間大家真的也都很緊張那也已經定了那定了其實就是對企業界來講他就知道怎麼去因應那因為這一次川普的這個勝選也算是比外界尤其是民調原來預測的"},{"start":13502.355,"end":13518.776,"text":"更多的票跟席次所以在這種情況之下賀錦麗陣營也表達拜選之外也會協助交接所以我覺得這個不確定性的因素就沒了這也是我想對投資者很重要的一個因素"},{"start":13519.116,"end":13533.648,"text":"那尤其像台積電也對那因為大家在外界的質疑說如果這個政府當選之後對於台積電可能會有一些關稅上面的一些影響那我看今天台積電也長嘛那表示說我們台灣投資者對於台積電是相當有信心的"},{"start":13534.104,"end":13538.345,"text":"請教一下部長賴總統在昨天下午有召開一個國安高層會議部長也有參加我想請教一下部長"},{"start":13562.873,"end":13586.873,"text":"那有沒有討論到就是說在川普在明年1月就職之前政權交接的過渡時期那中國的政治意圖跟軍事動態可能對台灣會有什麼樣的影響我們外交部的報告裡面確實有提到因為要嚴防中共在這個美國政府交接期有一些對台灣的一些比較就是說一些"},{"start":13589.076,"end":13596.609,"text":"的作為因為這個期間有可能我們必須做好因應"},{"start":13598.055,"end":13620.224,"text":"因為政府交接嘛那原政府進入看守期而新政府還沒有上任那也許一種可能的情境不是說一定就這樣就是中共對台的這個一些軍演那有可能就是會有一些挑釁來測試就是未來的美國這個川普政府"},{"start":13621.284,"end":13621.324,"text":"國安高層會議"},{"start":13645.172,"end":13646.133,"text":"外交部部長、大陸委員會報告"},{"start":13669.43,"end":13675.772,"text":"今天有一個蓬勃的新聞社有一個消息不是消息證實為假他說川普贏了大選之後賴清德考慮要試圖致電給川普目前不知道川普是否會接電話總統府已經有駁斥了"},{"start":13685.635,"end":13707.544,"text":"那部長也說這個有跟川普的外交幕僚有聯繫的管道但是沒有任何有電話的這個討論那我在想就是說中國接下來也會再繼續再來操作這個賴政府跟川普政府沒有聯絡管道不知道怎麼聯絡這些假訊息那請問一下外交部怎麼去因應還有外交部目前跟川普的團隊的聯繫管道如何"},{"start":13708.956,"end":13733.162,"text":"就有關於有一個媒體的報導說好像我們要去聯繫去打電話這個也沒有經過這個查實就是說也讓府方有一些回應所以沒有平衡報導所以經過溝通之後他們也做了一些修正因為我們不希望說把這個操作成一種好像這個要打電話不打電話的問題"},{"start":13734.762,"end":13758.443,"text":"或是說想打電話不知道找誰打電話或是說他想要企圖去營造說我們好像跟川普團隊沒有一個聯繫的管道所以我舉個例子就像是前他們的國安顧問奧布蘭他就推了我們賴總統在X上面的這個恭賀文這個也是一個很好的顯示我覺得"},{"start":13759.704,"end":13787.209,"text":"國人要就是在這個關天天我們駐美的代表處也是第一時間就有轉達總統的賀函那所以我們現在跟川普的團隊有外交上面有聯繫過應該說他的團隊還在行程中我們對於他的這個政府的組成可能會入閣的會擔任各個職務我們是有一些幕僚的就是說分析跟研判"},{"start":13788.309,"end":13805.263,"text":"但這也要隨著他的這個組織政府的程序因為他從1月20號之前我們會針對這個部分因為其實人事的布局也會影響未來政策的輕重環境"},{"start":13806.184,"end":13832.832,"text":"那剛剛部長有提到這一個歐布萊恩這個美國的這個前國家安全顧問他因為總統有先貼了一個文然後他有這個轉貼然後也貼個這個賴清德總統然後呢這個部長怎麼看就是說當然這個賴總統他有去恭賀然後這一個因為歐布萊恩對於這個川普的團隊也相當的重要啦那部長怎麼看這個轉貼他的政治意涵"},{"start":13834.176,"end":13860.72,"text":"這個是當然就是很友善的一個行動那也不是說只有這個啦我們駐美代表處都就是第一時間都有跟相關的可能現在或未來會參與政府政策的這些人士有第一時間去聯繫或恭賀或表達對於一些我們未來合作的期待"},{"start":13861.34,"end":13877.907,"text":"所以這只是其一而已啊,像這樣的情況其實是還蠻普遍的那所以我們在第一時間我們駐美代表處有向這個川普團隊來恭喜對,就是有總統巨寒的賀文那對於這個賀錦麗呢?"},{"start":13882.29,"end":13905.098,"text":"總統自己在臉書上的貼文有表達感謝拜登總統和賀錦麗副總統這次的總統候選人他們對台灣的支持那美台關係的一個貢獻那這個部分就是都有就如您看到的在新聞稿上也有在貼文也有好 謝謝"},{"start":13909.253,"end":13915.938,"text":"謝謝李昆城委員部長請回接下來我們請劉許廷委員上台質詢謝謝主席林部長有請請林部長"},{"start":13934.426,"end":13952.48,"text":"部長午安,我們就話不多說直接進入主題,川普當選,在2016年當選的時候有川普跟蔡英文前總統的通話,當初在被解讀成為巨大的外交突破,那麼川普會跟賴總統通話嗎?"},{"start":13955.964,"end":13956.645,"text":"如果沒有通話,算不算外交倒退?"},{"start":13970.643,"end":13970.783,"text":"他的特質喔"},{"start":13997.065,"end":14019.927,"text":"當然有一些人是說他有這個所謂交易式的領導風格啦交易式的領導風格那他喜歡贏啦想要贏所以呢就是說我想在我們過去四年他執政的時候我們相處的所以說是台美關係啊奠定現在的基礎啦這個我倒是就是在我的報告裡面有提到其實你的報告我等一下再跟你算清楚來"},{"start":14020.828,"end":14039.205,"text":"普遍上不管是國際關係的學者專家也好或者是長期研究國際關係的資深記者跟評論員共同對川普的憂慮也好或者是客觀的分析也好叫做這個人有高度的unpredictable叫做不可預測性部長這個你總知道吧看你怎麼看還是你反對這樣子你贊不贊成這樣的說法"},{"start":14043.865,"end":14045.787,"text":"他有高度的不可預測性,川普。"},{"start":14064.747,"end":14087.282,"text":"就是因為大家都知道他具有高度的不可預測性所以本席不會認為他當初打電話給蔡英文前總統叫做什麼外交突破如果他這一屆沒有跟賴清德總統通話我也不會認為是外交倒退你要處變不驚的原因就是因為你要了解他本身具有高度的不可預測性今天我看你外交部的報告通篇在維穩沒事沒事一切都會照常舉行一切都會這個"},{"start":14089.043,"end":14089.303,"text":"堅若磐石"},{"start":14114.751,"end":14144.151,"text":"對那我就舉具體的例子來問吳俄戰爭對不對拜登是不是帶領的民主黨政府帶領的美國領導的這個民主集團他們對俄羅斯啊這對烏克蘭有沒有軍援有對不對賣武器等等提供各式各樣的協助有沒有有吧有有對不對他們有沒有聯合世界各個民主國家的集團跟聯盟制裁俄羅斯有有對不對好他們有沒有積極的在阻止威權集團的擴張在拜登政府執政的時代跟領導的時代有沒有"},{"start":14145.356,"end":14167.405,"text":"有有對不對川普會不會他也會啊他也會啊因為因為川普是把中國界定為戰略的挑戰者是說風不一樣啊我在跟你講俄羅斯你跟我講中國幹嘛俄羅斯也是一樣啊部長我不知道你有沒有注意到啊這哲倫司機昨天在推特上面發了一篇恭賀川普當選的文你知道下面留言長什麼樣子嗎"},{"start":14169.383,"end":14187.371,"text":"我沒有去看他留言我有看到媒體報導川粉大幅洗版大家在下面寫說你趕快投降喔你早就應該跟普丁談判啦你就不要負隅頑抗啦美國人不會再給你錢啦都是川普的支持者那請問川普上台跟拜登會一樣嗎?部長"},{"start":14189.377,"end":14191.821,"text":"那你為什麼之前答詢的時候都講說這些路線會一樣?"},{"start":14202.512,"end":14226.713,"text":"有在不同的層次啦他的作風不太一樣不代表說他其實他對於這個今天去講到包括說這個所謂的中或二齁其實他有他一套那一套跟這個現在的拜登總統不一樣但是不代表他維護美國國家利益以及希望說去二制啊威權擴張他是有不一樣的"},{"start":14227.113,"end":14244.544,"text":"他會維護美國的國家利益這個大家都很清楚這個是大概你剛剛講的有限的可預測性裡面大概唯一大家可以公認這可預測的就是他一定會以美國的利益為優先但這件事情回到台灣外交發展的角度來講其實拜登也是以美國利益為優先的狀況不太一樣是對於國際局勢發展的影響應該是你外交部"},{"start":14248.406,"end":14261.869,"text":"對未來的變局啊你應該做充分的準備但我在這報告裡面我通篇沒有看到針對川普不可預測性這件事情你台灣有任何的因應措施你甚至完全沒有提到這件事我覺得我們應該要沉著啊然後因應這個情勢我們做好準備不是一次就把所有的這個我們的做法都拋出來嗎因為這還在發展中他還要組織政府還要提出很多政策"},{"start":14277.593,"end":14300.773,"text":"剛剛在答詢的過程中其實已經非常清楚我們從實際上答詢的過程跟我舉出的例證裡面其實就驗證了川普本身有高度的不確定性我不希望看到我們外交部提出來的報告明明知道它是個不確定性有不可預測性的風險但在這裡面只字未提通篇維穩不要用中央廚房式的固定答案來面對外交的嚴肅問題這是我今天要給外交部的嚴肅提醒"},{"start":14301.454,"end":14317.014,"text":"我跟委員分享,國際政治的結構面也不是個人風格,它有一些特色跟談判的技巧,但不代表它的一些結構性的,就是說對於現在美國外交政策會做改變,以及對台灣的政策會有一些不一樣。"},{"start":14317.435,"end":14344.689,"text":"你剛剛講 我剛剛講一個政策你剛剛講不會改變我舉的烏鵝戰爭我認為還是不同層次你沒有辦法回答我認為沒有改變但個人的領導風格有一些不一樣大部分它的重點當然會放在經貿但我們今天談的是國防外交我們在這委員會所以我們今天沒有多談但是它有可能會改變是一個大家都公認的事實我跟委員分享齁比如說你先聽我講完嘛面對這樣子的變局不管是外交部也好或者是陸委會也好你的工作負擔都會增加因為局面複雜"},{"start":14345.729,"end":14361.402,"text":"我要你在面對這樣問題的呈現如實的跟人民報告這樣的挑戰而不是明明有可能有變數你要蒙著眼睛講說一切都如常態度是不正確的也要背離外交專業"},{"start":14363.23,"end":14378.741,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說其實台美關係的突破其實這8年來大部分都是在那個川普總統的那個前4年包括對台的很多的架構性的安排我就問你前4年有沒有烏俄戰爭是不是沒有可是你看比如說美中的貿易戰"},{"start":14380.742,"end":14408.179,"text":"到現在加強到不只是從華為這種乾淨5G到晶片這個去紅供應鏈我剛剛不是跟你講我們現在國防外交委員會嗎我如果今天要問貿易戰的我會下去經濟委員會問證啊對不對你今天也不是經濟部長我現在要你處理好處理好未來的變局我希望我們的政府就是要有這樣子的心理準備有可能你明明有但你不敢寫啊你不敢講啊不用敢講他有可預設性大家就面對這個問題就好了"},{"start":14410.56,"end":14410.84,"text":"謝謝劉許廷委員 部長請回"},{"start":14438.351,"end":14453.481,"text":"鄭天才 鄭天才 鄭天才委員不在鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在鄭振前 鄭振前 鄭振前委員不在接下來我們請羅志強委員上台質詢主席有請部長有請部長"},{"start":14473.931,"end":14488.46,"text":" 2016年川普第一次當選美國總統,當時蔡英文總統在12月2日跟川普越洋通話。當時我記得民進黨非常雀躍,說這是外交史上重大的突破,沒錯吧?"},{"start":14492.713,"end":14509.664,"text":"當時 還說川菜夠辣 很多的義美之詞 不一一列舉 但是我剛剛聽到 剛剛我們劉許廷委員在質詢你的時候 問到會不會有川瀨熱線 你看起來好像沒什麼把握 對不對"},{"start":14512.455,"end":14533.117,"text":"這是要由川來決定的當然 照你的邏輯你也可以講川蔡的事但是我們不能要去促成因為媒體有報導了我就做點澄清避免誤會我跟你講我不認為你要避免誤會這事情我覺得當然你要先不能講我也可以體會因為外交有些工作要低調"},{"start":14534.378,"end":14558.201,"text":"但是你不能一副好像無所謂的樣子我覺得基本上我是鼓勵你能夠比照蔡英文的時候去促成穿賴熱線這個鼓勵應該不為過吧其實外交關係的呈現有各種方式我們不要去限制在而且尤其是媒體他那樣子設定的話容易變成引導到另外一個方向去你會有一個很嚴重的邏輯問題"},{"start":14559.622,"end":14571.569,"text":"如果照你這樣講的話穿菜熱線沒那麼重要的話當初穿菜熱線那民進黨不就犯了一個邏輯上很大的問題嗎你把他捧得好像一個外交重大突破我想抱歉我會站在前面的民進黨"},{"start":14572.665,"end":14589.494,"text":"所以這一點我是肯定來請那個蔡英文的啊所以對於蔡英文的肯定我希望你耐心的能夠做到起碼跟做的跟蔡英文一樣嘛那這樣的一個奇妙我覺得外交部不能夠當作說啊這個有這個有這個沒這個無所謂的感覺我覺得這個態度不是辦外交的態度啦"},{"start":14590.716,"end":14616.177,"text":"當時是第一次嘛就已經發生過了啊就沒有後來 對不對而且又是同一個川普 對不對好啦 我只是勉勵您而已啦因為你們有一個邏輯上的問題啦那第二個我覺得就是很嚴肅的問題啦我們川普在競選總統的時候有一個很重要的政見跟台灣有關就是要我們要交保護費吧你知道吧"},{"start":14618.916,"end":14647.336,"text":"他當選總統說要叫我們交保護費他那個詳細的文字不是說交保護費要GDP到百分之十啦那個時候有沒有講這個數字啊是在選舉的時候因為受訪的時候他又提到了因為那個數字也變來變去欸數字變來變去至少他今天提的這個數字嘛我看到就是新聞外媒報導說假的那我就要問你啦我是覺得他的那個那你一看到數據是多少"},{"start":14648.393,"end":14649.154,"text":"黑幫都要收保護費啊 台灣當然也要交保護費啊"},{"start":14654.175,"end":14681.815,"text":"不是嗎?因為他的副總統也有一些奏訪也有一些講話總統重要還是副總統重要啊?都很重要啊都很重要?總統說的為準嘛那我想請問你要不要我跟你講部長因為川普講話這個調調我也不會把這個是責任全部放你身上可是我覺得外交部總有個責任跟川普的新政府溝通一下你知道GDP百分之十四多少嗎?部長你知道嗎?那"},{"start":14685.277,"end":14704.978,"text":"23兆4兆的這個10%我告訴你在我們中央政府總共預算是84%我們基本上如果真正照川普講的這個編到GDP10%的話政府大概就可以幾乎沒有事可以做啦所以這個地方抱歉我覺得就是外交部的責任啦溝通是你外交部的責任沒錯吧"},{"start":14705.698,"end":14718.793,"text":"我們會去溝通,因為事實上我們是在增加嘛,從過去到未來我要的你只有這句話嘛,這個坦白講我直接講,你認為以這個數字來講是合理要求嗎?不要講說啦,就是說這個數字是可以會說話嘛以這個數字是不是合理要求嘛?"},{"start":14728.305,"end":14734.651,"text":"因為他講百分之幾其實這是一個期許但是百分之十要看你怎麼計算"},{"start":14735.919,"end":14737.379,"text":"那我跟委員講比如說灰色地帶的作戰海巡署"},{"start":14766.533,"end":14788.707,"text":"中共是海警船 它就是國防啊 那我們海巡署的預算也是國防啊部長我跟你講 你就算把這都算進去 你要到10% 你天差地遠我這樣說不過分吧 你把海巡署全部都算進去你把國安會什麼什麼全部都算進去 我告訴你也一樣天差地遠把你外交部算進去都天差地遠 你相不相信"},{"start":14789.653,"end":14810.211,"text":"我跟委員報告,他的副總統最重要的,他們的幕僚也談過是5,所以這個數字變來變去所以你接受5%沒有啦,我意思是說5也好10也好,這就是要增加,要展現我們自我防衛的決心,然後跟國防的能力基本上,因為我也在政府工作過"},{"start":14811.343,"end":14826.371,"text":"臺北關係我當然知道重要啊經營也困難所以你也發現我質詢你有沒有很為難你對不對可是我要講啊過去其實我們有跟美國有一些意見不合的時候至少我在政府服務的時候不要說太平島美國的意見跟我們中華民國立場就有點不一樣對不對沒錯吧"},{"start":14830.035,"end":14857.222,"text":"跟馬政府之後馬政府時候不一樣當時至少政府就用很勇敢的講出來說抱歉我跟你不一樣但是並不會今天你要站在一個尊嚴的基礎上跟隨美國溝通我同意當然嘛所以不合理的要講就像前面有最後講一點啦我覺得那個態度部長還是可以修正一下林玉婷的部分你不能跟洪某凱講說你問我我才講啊"},{"start":14858.291,"end":14860.932,"text":"沒有指名道姓又沒有指名道姓的回應不是嗎?就是要回應"},{"start":14877.762,"end":14878.142,"text":"謝謝羅志強委員 部長請回"},{"start":14906.701,"end":14908.983,"text":"接下來我們請葉元芝委員上台質詢有請林部長"},{"start":14928.841,"end":14946.905,"text":"今天國防外交委員會排這個主題當然就是因為因應美國選舉之後對台灣甚至兩岸的一個影響我們希望聽到是最真實的聲音而不是一直粉飾太平剛剛部長講說川普當選對台的關係完全不會有影響為什麼呢?因為你剛剛講說美國再次偉大不能沒有台灣這是你講的嘛"},{"start":14953.686,"end":14974.622,"text":"就是說美國如果沒有台灣的話就不能再次偉大那有了台灣才能再次偉大所以我們的角色非常重要但我不知道部長講這個話是根據什麼我這邊也有看了一些外媒報導紐約時報他就說川普重新回到白宮開啟了一個非常不確定的時代"},{"start":14975.642,"end":14996.222,"text":"就像他們都稍微有點懷疑說川普回去白宮之後對於整個國際局勢有什麼影響但是部長覺得沒什麼影響然後前兩天紐約時報沒有什麼影響你剛剛講了嘛不能沒有台灣嘛然後第二個紐約時報也提到了就是說其實中國大陸那邊非常歡迎川普重返"},{"start":14996.903,"end":15014.361,"text":"白宮兩個原因第一個原因就是因為拜登之前都是在中國大陸附近的鄰國去結盟所以讓他們感到很大的圍堵的壓力第二個原因是美威時報講的說川普對於保護台灣其實沒有太大的興趣而這一點中共是非常歡迎的"},{"start":15014.941,"end":15020.766,"text":"所以我覺得像這樣的局勢８文傑剛剛８沒有部長請教一下紐約時報這樣的分析您認同嗎?紐約時報這樣的分析您認同嗎?看你從哪個角度看啊對,您認同嗎?沒有其實從更高的層次來講就是說他抗中的力道更強啊"},{"start":15033.427,"end":15059.549,"text":"所以你只看對我們心安的部分我覺得這個大家都應該要料敵為重那如果說大家都粉飾太平的話那其實我們就通通大家都過太平日子也不需要來這邊報告如果講的都是不能夠這樣所以請問一下外交部針對我剛剛講的一些外媒的分析做了哪些因應的對策呢"},{"start":15061.446,"end":15087.374,"text":"對策喔?第一個就是說我們當然密切關注他的主張跟人事的佈局那因為他重視的議題啊我們的怎麼樣去跟他取得交集比如說他很重視投資美國創造就業然後他會用關稅的手段作為外交談判那這個時候他比較採取啊我是說針對可能會有風險的部分有做出哪些對策"},{"start":15089.404,"end":15090.905,"text":"邀請外交部長．對於美中台三邊關係及未來國際局勢發展之影響"},{"start":15113.423,"end":15114.644,"text":"為什麼忽然間我們又不想要跟川普通電話?"},{"start":15136.365,"end":15141.612,"text":"起前的我不清楚,因為我那時候不是外交部部長,那為什麼現在就不想...我沒有去投入說要去怎麼樣去安排這些啊但是川普總統最後怎麼樣做,我們還是要...那並不是川普打電話給蔡總統好不好"},{"start":15154.688,"end":15154.808,"text":"委員講了"},{"start":15171.402,"end":15200.182,"text":"您說他不可預測性他上次用通電話這次會用什麼通電話是他要不要揭示一回事因為上次是部長部長部長所以你認為不要重複做同一件事是不是這是雙方面但是我目前做外交部長但是問題是之前是我們的外交部運作去跟川普通電話我現在問的是就外交部的立場這次為什麼沒有覺得要去運作這個事情為什麼你剛剛講說因為重複的事不想再做"},{"start":15200.822,"end":15212.399,"text":"蔡總統做的事情賴總統不需要再做你的意思是這樣嗎不是我覺得台美單親有很多要做的事而且可以做的好當然很多事情都要做那通電話這個事情為什麼不做嘛我的問題這麼簡單為什麼都沒辦法回答勒"},{"start":15217.797,"end":15219.057,"text":"最後問一下,川普明年就職的時候我們會派慶賀團過去嗎?"},{"start":15241.215,"end":15263.6,"text":"會,那大概成績是什麼?因為以前好像都是立法院長,好像有一次部長也有陪同嗎?對,2016年目前的規劃是怎樣?我們目前就是有幾種,就是說因為他現在才剛選完啦,那我們有在籌備所以我昨天也跟這個包括總統也報告過,我們現在這個未來會來籌備這個親和團"},{"start":15266.661,"end":15276.953,"text":"反正美國不管是川普當選或賀錦麗當選都會有一個美國總統當選嗎?你不需要等到誰當選之後才來籌備嗎?還是你會因人而異?你大概會派誰?是立法院長嗎?是會派立法院長代表區嗎?"},{"start":15283.598,"end":15299.283,"text":"因為之前我們有一次是由院長嘛所以這一次是韓國瑜院長會去嗎?我們還在籌備當中那有沒有可能?等確定再跟委員報告目前還沒有確定沒有確定因為是韓院長關係所以就比較難確定嘛不是不是跟院長是誰無關就對了無關無關好謝謝謝謝謝謝葉仁芝委員部長請回"},{"start":15311.687,"end":15321.681,"text":"已登記質詢的委員除了不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有陳永康委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆"},{"start":15327.97,"end":15343.204,"text":"委員口頭質詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供委員令約定期限者從期所定本日會議到此結束散會"},{"start":15360.23,"end":15363.183,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":15383.338,"end":15384.679,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":15405.79,"end":15406.41,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}