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好"},{"start":134.485,"end":142.913,"text":"那我們就看這個理賠率好了這個到今年4月理賠12.5萬件總理賠金額60.6億你說理賠率怎麼樣?理賠率130%"},{"start":156.485,"end":177.696,"text":"理賠率那理賠的金額每件大概平均多少就要看不同的那個就像您剛才講的27萬件23.4萬公頃嘛那相對的一除的話大概就是幾萬塊吧大概就這樣子所以他這個以理賠12.5萬件總理賠金額60.6億的話"},{"start":185.049,"end":214.466,"text":"就是平均那另外我如果理賠率是百分之一百三的話就是我保費收了一百塊可是我賠了一百三十塊的這種概念啊所以換句話說農民會增加了這個三十塊的的一個一個貨到這個理賠以現在的數字啊數字六十點六億來算的話差不多四萬八千多了"},{"start":215.996,"end":220.179,"text":"平均4萬8千多也不是很高啦保險不是用來賺錢的所以這個部分是怎麼樣去精進的"},{"start":237.406,"end":245.691,"text":"因為經過如果你這邊寫說自104年推動以來表示還沒有這個法例的時候就開始推動了嘛"},{"start":247.346,"end":268.084,"text":"我跟委員報告 其實如果要談到農業保險那最佳的理賠率應該是70%到80%因為再一加一些行政成本嘛那這樣的話就能夠攤平整個的系統那現在理賠率超過100%超過100%表示說很多保單因為保的人數太少"},{"start":269.145,"end":282.857,"text":"保單流出太少的時候他保費沒有辦法被分擔風險沒辦法被分擔所以我們的目標就是要讓更多人設計出一個好的保單讓更多人來投保讓這個保險的那個理賠率能夠降到70%到80%左右"},{"start":286.997,"end":300.664,"text":"就是因為有這樣的一個實際的狀況實際實行的情形所以我們召委才會提出這個修農業保險法第10條"},{"start":302.205,"end":331.307,"text":"怎麼樣能夠當然這個部分等一下如果有主條的話討論的話是可以再討論這個怎麼樣讓這個條文更好當然他這個利益良善就是希望這個補助比例授權給主管機關因應農業發展的需要能夠定期檢討這個部分是一個"},{"start":332.659,"end":344.547,"text":"怎麼樣因為有時候條文有時候硬梆梆的如果我們基本上農業部我們都會相信農業部是會照顧農民是以農民的"},{"start":346.011,"end":373.027,"text":"這個利益的一個尤其是相關的應該他之所以會要理賠就是因為符合理賠的條件所以這個部分是這個部分當然你們有你們的一個考量這個在你們的資料裡面這個補助刪除補助比例是不是不利還是有利在你們的報告裡面都有都有提到"},{"start":374.148,"end":388.868,"text":"所以這個部分你們的理解按照你們對於這個條文的修正的理解就是說增加第二項前項補助比例主管基本考量農業發展之需要定期檢討調整"},{"start":391.27,"end":411.655,"text":"這樣的文字跟你原來的線型條文的施行後第六年起以60%為上限是不利是還是有利我跟委員報告我非常感謝委員包括謝議員委員還有其他兩位委員的版本那其中有個重要的就是"},{"start":412.882,"end":433.923,"text":"這些補助的比例應該要考量農業發展的需要定期的檢討調整這個我覺得我們也在做我們絕對認同那至於說把第六年以後的百分之六十刪掉那那個刪掉了以後反而會造成法的不確定性的空間它可以是零也可以是一百"},{"start":434.933,"end":458.596,"text":"就是沒有一個完整的敘述因為前面只是敘述75%而已那如果說敘述75%然後講的是前項補助的話那就會有點邏輯不通就是說因為你刪掉了後面6年那你的現在紅色的前項的部分就是去調整前面5年可是前面5年已經過了啦"},{"start":459.799,"end":482.666,"text":"所以這個部分我覺得農業部我們未來在調溫的足調審查的時候我想我們會提出一些我們的精進的作為那我都知道委員都是為了農民希望鼓勵農民來增加投保的前提那同樣的我們可以設計一些誘因來"},{"start":484.927,"end":504.604,"text":"增加農民投保的這些意願這個我想我們在未來在主條審查的時候我們會提出一些想法來跟委員做一個報告這個我們討論的時候一定要考量到農民然後尤其是我們考量到這個"},{"start":506.027,"end":526.195,"text":"目前的執行的狀況所以這個比例怎麼樣去決定雖然是授權給你們但是前面怎麼樣去比如說幾個例子其補助第一項補助比例不得低於多少比假設不足補助比例不得低於60%不得低於60%"},{"start":530.97,"end":556.726,"text":"然後第二項其補助比例你還可以往60以上還可以增加給你彈性委員你講到另外一件事情你說不得低於那農業部是絕對反對的啦因為保險本身是一個對價的一個關係如果所有東西都由政府承擔有太多的道德風險我想委員也經常在產業看嘛這個部長"},{"start":558.116,"end":571.128,"text":"這個就是我剛剛只是一個給你討論的方向因為有第二項嘛前項補助比例給你去檢討嘛所以那個第一項的文字怎麼樣去修的會更好"},{"start":572.397,"end":593.804,"text":"這個部分我們當初的想法就是第一項不刪六年的話後面那項留著就很好因為兩個都會考慮對 因為那個以本法實行後五年內以75%為上限那個已經過了嘛對所以已經文字不需要了所以第一項看怎麼改會更好我們到時候再一起討論好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":384,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（10時10分）主席、各位委員。有請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好！農業保險已經實施差不多10年了，你們的資料說，113年度投保27萬件、23.4萬公頃，按照你的報告，以今年來講，投保19.1萬件、15.8萬公頃，目前覆蓋率是53.72%，這樣的覆蓋率是以經過10年來算嗎？還是從109年開始算？"],["陳部長駿季：應該從110年吧！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你這邊寫……"],["陳部長駿季：現在是當下的平均投保率。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：現在嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：對，以去年的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這樣還是有非常需要加強的空間啦！對不對？因為這樣的覆蓋率……"],["陳部長駿季：我個人認為整個投保的覆蓋率不是一味的一直拉高，我們希望每一張保單的設計是符合農民需要，而且每一張保單的投保人數是多的。至於整個投保覆蓋率本身又牽涉到有的保單剛剛開始、有的保單還沒設計，因為品項太多了，所以我想我們未來會要求投保保單的品質，而不是衝保單的數量。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，那我們就看理賠率好了，到今年4月，理賠12.5萬件，總理賠金額超過60.6億。"],["陳部長駿季：理賠率大概是130%。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你說理賠率怎麼樣？"],["陳部長駿季：理賠率130%。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：每一件理賠的金額平均是多少？"],["陳部長駿季：這要看不同的保單，就像您剛才講的，27萬件、23.4萬公頃，相對一除的話大概就是幾萬塊吧！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：以理賠12.5萬件，總理賠金額60.6億來算的話，平均就是……"],["陳部長駿季：簡單說，如果理賠率是130%的話，就是我保費收了100塊，可是我賠了130塊，是這種概念啦！換句話說，農民會獲得增加30塊的理賠。"],["鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：就是因為有這樣實際的狀況、實際的執行情形，所以召委才會提出修正農業保險法第十條，這個部分等一下如果有逐條討論的話，可以再討論怎麼樣讓這個條文更好。當然它的立意良善，就是希望把補助比率授權給主管機關，因應農業發展的需要能夠定期檢討，因為有時候條文硬梆梆的，我們基本上都相信農業部會照顧農民，以農民的利益為考量。他之所以會需要理賠，就是因為符合理賠的條件，這個部分的原因是這樣。當然你們有你們的考量，刪除補助比率是不利還是有利，在你們的報告裡面都有提到。這個部分按照你們對於這個修正條文的理解，增加第二項「前項補助比率，主管機關應考量農業發展之需要定期檢討、調整」，這樣的文字跟現行條文「施行後第六年起，以百分之六十為上限」相較，是不利還是有利？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，我非常感謝委員，包括謝衣鳯委員及其他兩位委員提出的版本，其中有一個重要的就是，這些補助比率應該要考量農業發展的需要，定期的檢討、調整，這個我們也在做，我們覺得認同。至於把第六年以後的百分之六十刪掉，那個刪掉了以後反而會造成法的不確定性空間，它可以是零，也可以是一百，就是沒有完整的敘述，因為前面只是敘述百分之七十五而已。如果這裡講的是前項補助的話，那就會有點邏輯不通，因為刪掉了後面的第六年起，現在前項的部分就是去調整前面五年，可是前面五年已經過了。這個部分未來在條文逐條審查的時候，我們會提出一些精進的作為。我知道委員都是為了農民，是以希望鼓勵農民增加投保為前提，同樣的，我們可以設計一些誘因來增加農民投保的意願，未來在逐條審查的時候我們會提出一些想法來跟委員報告。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我們討論的時候一定要考量到農民，尤其是要考量到目前執行的狀況，所以這個比率怎麼樣決定雖然是授權給你們，但是前面怎麼樣去設定，舉個例子，譬如說第一項寫成，其補助比例不得低於多少，假設是補助比率不得低於百分之六十，然後第二項的補助比率還可以往百分之六十以上增加，給你彈性，這個都是更好的方法。"],["陳部長駿季：委員講到的是另外一件事情，你說不得低於，農業部是絕對反對的，因為保險本身是一個對價關係，如果所有東西都由政府承擔，有太多的道德風險，我想委員也經常在產業看嘛！"],["鄭天財Sra 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