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458,"text":"等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具"},{"start":1687.284,"end":1699.839,"text":"好 那個我們現在就宣告我們現在開始開會那我們就是謝謝所有的我們立法院的同仁還有我們行政機關的代表教育部同仁辛苦了今天真的是非常長的一天然後呢 謝謝部長"},{"start":1703.243,"end":1708.805,"text":"那我們現在就是來進行黨團協商那我們的主題就是我們教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員范雲等17人擬具學生輔導法部分條文修正草案等30案還有經院會進覆二讀與相關提案併案協商的行政院函請審議等5案的黨團協商那我想我們因為現在還有直播嘛所以我們還是要介紹在場的委員跟行政機關的列席的一個代表"},{"start":1732.773,"end":1741.199,"text":"委員范雲等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員陳培鈺等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭玉琴等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭玉琴等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭玉琴等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭�"},{"start":1762.876,"end":1763.637,"text":"法務部內政部專委主席總署主席總署"},{"start":1776.338,"end":1801.132,"text":"好 謝謝還有衛福部新建司的衛福部新建司好 非常感謝還有衛福部的社家屬好不好好 謝謝大家那我們現在大家就開始來進行我們今天的協商我們希望今天真的是能有一個結果我想學生輔導法能夠順利如果在我們這一次的會期當中通過是全民之福了那我們先來宣讀我們現在協商的我們現在先來討論一下"},{"start":1806.836,"end":1807.756,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商委員"},{"start":1822.284,"end":1841.048,"text":"好 那我們現在說法的進度當中我們現在是不是我們來幫大家回憶一下我們在7月4號跟8號已經完成足條審查那我們部分的條文是保留送協商然後呢我們另外在7月11號就在今天之前我們有個黨團協議的我們的結論幫大家複習一下第4條跟第5條我們是修正通過那我們等一下我們第4條跟第5條是修正通過那我們基本上面是7-1 10"},{"start":1852.13,"end":1869.043,"text":"等19人擬具第十一、十二及第十七條及增定第十條之一等19人擬具第十一、十二及第十七條及增定第十條之一等19人擬具第十一、十二及第十七條及增定第十條之一等19人擬具第十一、十二及第十七條及增定第十條之一等19人擬具第十一、十二及第十七條及增定第十條之一等19人擬具第十一、十二及第十七條及增定第十條之一等19人擬具第十一、十二及第十七條及增定第十條之一等19人擬具第十一、十二及第十七條及增定第十條之一等19人擬具第十一、十二及第十七"},{"start":1881.035,"end":1881.936,"text":"第四條附帶決議有關薪資的部分是重中之重"},{"start":1904.19,"end":1904.31,"text":"7-1增订的7-1"},{"start":1924.974,"end":1926.876,"text":"7-1大家翻過來好不好先走一下7-1好我們范雲委員跟陳培宇委員我們現場還有萬美雲林委員也到場了來7-1我們先討論7-1好來我想"},{"start":1940.086,"end":1941.527,"text":"教育部的教育部長"},{"start":1955.498,"end":1956.279,"text":"主張的不是說會讓家屬遺族覺得很悲痛"},{"start":1978.118,"end":1978.298,"text":"董事長董事長"},{"start":1993.365,"end":1994.447,"text":"等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具"},{"start":2009.127,"end":2018.91,"text":"而且我們那個部長也是相關的領域出身的覺得他一定會來做所以我就不堅持一定要放在條文裡面那我這邊有個附帶決議那就是我剛所講的就是希望參考國際經驗然後針對學生身心健康不利的系統性因素所以不是要做過去衛福部的那種個案回溯然後覺得無法執行的部分那我也希望教育部是獨立做"},{"start":2037.656,"end":2061.793,"text":"為服務做好的可是我們是在國教環境也許學校升學壓力各方面就是都有一些不利的因素那當然這次學輔法增加了就是專業輔導的人力的話也許我們可以慢慢改善我想這種系統性的研究做了之後我們未來相關的學輔資源那如何總不能一直增加這個部分然後不改善"},{"start":2062.233,"end":2062.413,"text":"陳佩玉委員"},{"start":2085.438,"end":2106.52,"text":"好 謝謝主席教育部應該知道七之一我非常非常的堅持但是剛剛主席已經提醒了沒有條文但是後續的附帶決議我們可以討論我還是要再次強調我的堅持其來有自除了認同范雲委員剛說的系統性的調查在我自己的版本裡面我寫的也是系統性的因素"},{"start":2107.381,"end":2134.275,"text":"那因為這一次我知道其實一併調整了人力調整了薪資也就是說我們期待在現場的資源更充足的情況下我們的想像可能是輔導的量能可以提升可以讓學生相關的複雜的負面的因素可以降低但我們還是要面對一個困境其實在前一個版本的學復法裡面一直到現在人員都還沒有到位"},{"start":2135.015,"end":2146.831,"text":"但現在這個版本的學輔法修完到底我們多久可以到位其實我們並不真的知道我相信教育部雖然有想像、有規劃、有承諾但來自另外一個困境其實是人從哪裡來"},{"start":2148.482,"end":2157.129,"text":"光是現場的正式教師、代理老師、特教老師、特教助理都已經有困難更何況輔導老師但是因為孩子們的自殘的行為越來越多而且樣態越來越複雜那家長的狀況也越來越多所以我才主張我們可不可以有系統性的死因回溯調查我當然知道有非常多的困難"},{"start":2170.12,"end":2193.748,"text":"可是我不認為我們台灣的學術研究團隊或者是台灣的專業團隊沒有辦法支持支撐起這個相關的專業研究跟調查我認為是有能量的我相信范雲委員來自學界也一定相信台灣的學術界絕對有這個能量不然衛福部現在不會做0到6歲但如果這一次真的不能入法我必須要再次拜託附帶決議我認為我們要認真面對這件事情悲傷的例子已經很多我就不再說"},{"start":2199.79,"end":2220.825,"text":"但是我想要舉一個近期的案例其實連我自己都非常的震撼我自己的小孩的學校最近也又出事了而我們身為家長第一時間收到這個訊息我們當然得花很多力氣跟我們自己的孩子溝通我也個人以家長的名義去跟學校確保學校的輔資資源是夠的但是我要談的是"},{"start":2222.206,"end":2248.728,"text":"這個孩子他在斷考前後出了這個事情我們並不知道是不是因為考試我們可以猜想這個孩子在決定離開人世之前他可能還遭遇了別的事情而那個事情會不會跟整個整體的教學現場的環境原生家庭的環境甚至當孩子進入學校之後他還有在社團在其他的人際關係在網路上實體的跟網路上都會有這些困境如果國家不願意用有系統的態度去面對我認為這個問題只會越來越嚴重"},{"start":2251.27,"end":2269.176,"text":"這次我還是可以接受教育部的說法你們不想入法可以但是我認為附帶決議那我的附帶決議的版本呢是希望在本法修正後通過六個月內辦理學生自殺嚴重自我傷害事件分析研究並且研究分析重視要重視質與量"},{"start":2270.856,"end":2294.781,"text":"再把這個研究結果提供相關建議來精心校園防治工作推展提出規劃報告送交教育文化委員會那也要拜託教育部在附帶決議上更積極地有所作為協助現場的老師、孩子還有家長一起去面對到底我們的孩子面臨的困境到底是什麼以上 謝謝主席好 不過我提醒一下我這邊有看到范雲對這件事情的附帶決議我們看到裴育偉的附帶決議"},{"start":2297.051,"end":2311.077,"text":"但是他有六個月你這邊沒有特別提出這個部分所以你那個附帶決議是不是教育部有嗎因為剛剛陳佩玉委員因為我剛剛看到的只是重新印發的是范雲委員的他的陳佩玉委員好 是不是給我們所有的委員一下那在利用這個時間點我們是不是請那個岳勤委員 好不好"},{"start":2321.724,"end":2323.446,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2346.369,"end":2360.866,"text":"教育部應該要正視這個問題因為我們的15歲 甚至10歲就已經自殺的狀態已經躍升到第三名 15歲已經躍升到第二名我覺得這是不可避免的至於要每一年"},{"start":2362.708,"end":2374.807,"text":"在美國的話他們大概就是四年會去做這樣的一個回溯性的調查研究如果台灣要跟經濟會同意可是不可能是說這法條拿掉之後沒有任何的積極作為我也同意在附帶決議以上 謝謝"},{"start":2380.291,"end":2400.486,"text":"親愛的同事們都很好可以發表但是我們的重中之重是在第四條的附帶決議跟十一跟十一跟十二好不好各位好這個如果大家已經有溝通了好不好趕快簡短發言謝謝可愛的雅琳委員好謝謝那因為其實我們也是有提版本啦就是希望可以針對這個不利處境的幫助研究跟探討這樣子那"},{"start":2401.627,"end":2417.883,"text":"基本上我是認同就是我們現在先不拔發文字裡面那我的想法是跟范雲委員一樣就是我們用社會學的方法做一個系統性的調查這部分還是非常需要的謝謝好 感謝教育部可不可以幫我們做個綜合回應有關范雲委員還有其他委員所提出來的"},{"start":2419.524,"end":2446.071,"text":"我們對這個議題同樣很關注我們也希望找到原因從源頭去改變環境改變系統性的因素把它比例降低下來然後我們已經有承諾後面會委託學術團體來做這個質跟量兼顧的一個系統性的研究那范委員所提案跟大家連署還有陳培宇的提案跟大家連署的這兩個負債券我們原則上都會配合辦理 以上報告"},{"start":2449.349,"end":2462.64,"text":"我們現在目前做成的決議就是我們七之一是不入法的但是我們就根據剛剛委員所提出的附帶決議我們就教育部這個部分上原則上就會遵照辦理好不好感謝來接下來第十條終於又進一步了很好來第十條"},{"start":2467.444,"end":2484.951,"text":"第十條的部分我們是不是先請教育部先做一個說明好不好你們在條文上面我們上一次討論完之後你們也回去做了一些的修正我們大家一起來看一下這個大本的第十條應該是第25頁開始好不好教育部你是會統一先做一個說明然後大家再發根據教育部的說明大家再看一下這條也是非常重要的來"},{"start":2487.552,"end":2506.982,"text":"這條第十條是有關於高中以下學校的專任輔導老師那在先前教育部的版本第十條是不修正的不過後來行政院院會討論依目前中小學學生的問題日益複雜人力確實有所不足所以行政院主同協調教育部及人總組總"},{"start":2508.423,"end":2531.211,"text":"還是提了第四條的修正案那院版已經在7月4號通過已經送立法院那通過主要在哪裡在國小原本是24班以下設議人他現在只要20班就設議人那他那個本來是24為一個級距就縮短成20個級距所以人力會因為這樣就增加那增加的人數呢我們有統計過國小會增加313個"},{"start":2535.369,"end":2557.936,"text":"金費會增加2億5千多萬國小會增加313人會增加2億5千萬國中的部分原本是15班以下設1個現在也縮小了只要12班以下就會設1個所以每12班設1個國中會增加290個人"},{"start":2564.104,"end":2564.224,"text":"委員黃秀芳"},{"start":2580.977,"end":2595.049,"text":"懇請委員支持因為這個部分是行政院主動提出來希望增加的因為我們過去在國小輔老師培育上就速度比較慢需要比較慢到位可是行政院覺得這次修法是很難得的機會希望利用這個機會就來做調整"},{"start":2599.059,"end":2622.231,"text":"大家會有一些意見不過你可以看一下這邊有個爭議點就是專任輔導老師去擔任這個主任或組長的工作那你這樣的一個人力其實目前為止也是非常多現場這個做行政職的老師的部分他去做了他就少了一個輔導的人力了那這樣有沒有辦法解決這樣的一個問題這個教育部等一下也一併來做一個說明那接下來還有誰有意見范雲委員跟陳培宇委員好 大家來看一下現在就表達嗎可以表達表達表達好"},{"start":2628.567,"end":2648.886,"text":"那個我想他就分兩個部分第一個人數的部分就是我原本的版本是18班以下嘛國小然後國中15班那教育部現在的版本是國小20班國中12班然後高中的我的部分是12班那就這邊也比較相近那但是這個部分我想已經協商了很久了"},{"start":2649.286,"end":2670.874,"text":"就是說教育部已經努力了那這部分我就不再堅持另外一個就是剛剛那個昭薇講的兼任行政時應補足應聘員額的部分這部分其實也是蠻多人跟我澄清跟反映的那主要上次我們都講過了其實在高中的輔導主管那一定是主任輔導教師而且會吃掉12班"},{"start":2673.675,"end":2698.861,"text":"一人的這個負擔那可是教育部又提到說你們的種種的困難所以我想這個部分就是說如果我們今天大家我當然還是希望說能夠爭取是不是還有空間我想今天我們之前能努力的都努力了如果不行的話那也是一樣就是我的附帶決議那我是附帶決議裡面主要就是希望教育部要妥善研議並監督"},{"start":2700.902,"end":2704.064,"text":"等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具"},{"start":2731.521,"end":2755.257,"text":"這個部分就是用這個附帶決議通過這個替代方案就是希望還是由專府人員協助教師擔任輔導主管時留下的介入性輔導工作這是你們教育部提的解方可是如何不會過度擴張他的協助工作那這部分教育部要嚴寧怎麼監督地方政府確實執行以上我就說明到這"},{"start":2756.397,"end":2785.217,"text":"好這是范雲委員你今天是才新提的一個附帶決議對不對對好范雲委員剛剛所提出一個新的對我知道我知道你就根據這個提的你今天新的大家有看到那個都有看到那接下來他們還沒發他們有發了嗎還沒發今天在這裡面一本那個范雲委員今天所提出來的附帶決議有定成一本大家先看一下報告教育部報告教育部你們看的最重要了好不好如果你們覺得可行的話你們就就那個好那接下來是陳培宇委員"},{"start":2790.899,"end":2818.742,"text":"沒有 這個我拿到的是那個范雲委員的啊對啊 第十條啊 我拿到的是他的那一個是上次柏惡是培育委員你上一次有提一個你上一次有提了一個對 我就是要講一下 謝謝主席就是關於人力培育的部分其實剛剛司長自己也不小心講出來了就算到了現在小學都還是很大的困難但是我必須要先說感謝行政院主動提及要把這個"},{"start":2820.363,"end":2842.199,"text":"一直沒有碰到的第十條在這一次教育部提出來的版本降了國小、國中確實可以期待但是我的問題也許教育部可以一併回答當然我有附帶決議就是在師資培育的部分師資培育的部分如何可以滿足質跟量的情況下讓教育現場真的有覺得獲得"},{"start":2843.8,"end":2844.02,"text":"等19人擬具"},{"start":2862.865,"end":2888.738,"text":"這一點我就忍不住要發言我自己在施肢培育我說實在輔導人員他們就是他即使有教師證他如果要拿到這個輔導的證照我說實在連現在連培育的機構可能都出了問題以前還有非常多學校現在就只能各縣市只能靠台北台北應該是國北市還是國北市國北市嘛其實很多學生在像高雄很多人他在高雄都找不到要修輔導學分的他可能到要到"},{"start":2889.98,"end":2911.256,"text":"我忘記到台南還是到台南去賞你看所以說這個人力上面跟你們所向這個理想事實上還是有一段的一個落差了然後目前為止很顯然像我之前也是提到說要把它降到15班以下然後呢然後這個東西比現行的條文大概多增加了一千多人八億多但是也是同樣面臨"},{"start":2912.737,"end":2942.2,"text":"你可能找不到這麼多失智的問題啊所以我們其實很多的委員到目前為止都有一點的妥協緣故是因為考慮到一個失智的因素所以分別透過這個附帶決定的方法來處理好 剛剛彭于委員那個部分裡面你有沒有辦法考慮到這個失智的部分有沒有辦法加一條是用逐年的方式還是用什麼方法可以來完成這個部分因為我告訴你這個學生輔導法今年修過之後再修已經又是三五年後的事情了是不是一次在這個不管是在條文法規上面或在附帶決定上面可以一次到位"},{"start":2942.6,"end":2962.796,"text":"所以教育部對於這兩位委員所提出來的這個負債決議有沒有其他的說明或如何來 部長 部長來麥克風麥克風謝謝主席范雲委員所提的我想我們配合辦理我們遵照辦理那另外陳培宇這個部分是不是請吳市長補充說明一下"},{"start":2968.306,"end":2993.46,"text":"原本確實培育量就受到四支培育機構的那個每年固定的量那原本規劃國小是到120年會全部到位國中到114年全部到位國小的部分在上次今年年初我們部裡頭有研議因為要增加學校的輔導人力所以曾經研議討論要提早到116到位那是現行法喔"},{"start":2998.182,"end":3016.791,"text":"國小、國中都分別加碼了,國中可能不是太大的問題,但國小這一塊加碼之後,剛才提到要增加300多個碼本來缺口是2088,再加300多,那這一塊是不是...我們私底下自己在這邊跟主席還有委員報告,非常感謝委員都很關注我們這個"},{"start":3020.993,"end":3039.217,"text":"提醒量跟值的並進所以目前增量的部分除了用公費培育的方式已經可以加入培育偏遠跟特殊地區的專輔老師我們也要求獅子培育大學相關培育系所要外加獅子生的名額"},{"start":3040.137,"end":3066.056,"text":"我們也持續地在開設在職老師家住專長學分班雖然這幾個模式都投入我們甚至署的部分也一起來努力我們在現場其實大概還有700多名的現職老師他其實已經有取得家住專長證但是沒有實質去擔任署這邊也一起來做努力研擬一些措施吸引他們來擔任"},{"start":3067.597,"end":3067.617,"text":"蔣麗芳議員"},{"start":3098.017,"end":3121.612,"text":"文字116年提前聘足這一段有一些教育部原先預定於民國120年到這個116年提前聘足這一段是不是可以協助我們刪除那我們會穩定的在這個量跟值的部分來把它多元培育的方式把它補足以上報告"},{"start":3125.057,"end":3148.944,"text":"所以你是告訴我們120跟120年跟116年這樣的一個數字這個年限不要把它框在裡面需要有更多的這個複代決議可以這個116如果要把院版的這個數字完全達成是會突增那這些人如果姑且論拼不拼得到到時候這些"},{"start":3149.824,"end":3174.692,"text":"人一次退休其實對教學現場也是不穩定的因素其實我告訴你我對教學現場了解根本非常的困難為什麼因為你現在光是大學裡面要來念獅子培育班的人數就已經完全不足了你從之前我自己當過獅培的老師我太清楚現在太少誘因了你知道嗎額外還要再去修這個部分所以我覺得這個是一個非常大的問題我覺得你反而在源頭前面你如何能夠讓更多的人"},{"start":3176.513,"end":3176.713,"text":"佩玉老師"},{"start":3191.26,"end":3214.438,"text":"好 培語老師說我先說我們這個負債決議的寫法如果您還記得的話其實是因為之前第十條沒有修嘛那我們只是把教育部一剛開始自己所宣稱的寫法放上來所以你現在要我拿掉其實就是你們教育部這些東西要先公開的承認是有困難的"},{"start":3215.379,"end":3235.646,"text":"所以我原則上可以拿掉沒有問題因為說了原本第十條沒有修但是如同剛剛您所說的一個是學試後還有現在已經加注第二專長的人願不願意投入真的去做專輔工作再加上你們還有公費生去特偏跟偏遠的部分"},{"start":3236.946,"end":3256.684,"text":"我覺得聽起來我不知道我如果現在問你你不一定會有數次但是我們都知道的困境是公費生逃離現場的比例應該不低於三分之一但如果你現在要在輔導的方面還要加開公費生還要把他派去偏鄉然後他又要做的是專輔工作"},{"start":3257.782,"end":3283.949,"text":"如果沒有額外的配套很難留住學生現場的老師他遠離了自己的原生家庭的故鄉的環境他到了一個生活機能不好人生地不熟但是他面臨的是最困難的專輔工作那如果這樣我們附帶決議可不可以再你要我拿兩條嗎那我再加一條就是後續的所有的配套措施請一併考量否則就會如同主席說的我們想像的所有的配套其實都"},{"start":3285.029,"end":3285.43,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":3308.052,"end":3327.542,"text":"所以我現在目前手上這一個教育部建議的刪掉120、116然後呢把這個一個月變成三個月那很顯然佩玉委員還有一些的想法所以你這個附帶決議請陳佩玉委員你來跟你先自己寫那我們是不是利用這個時間我們先來看看第十條的條文各位很顯然大家就是用附帶決議方法來解決那第十條條文我們是不是可以看一下"},{"start":3330.703,"end":3338.104,"text":"根據我們教育部所提出來的紅字部分我要念一次是不是各位看清楚最後機會了不要再回來了"},{"start":3339.798,"end":3358.587,"text":"一、高級中等以下學校專任輔導教師員額編制如下一、國民小學20班以下制一人21班以上者每20班增制一人二、國民中學12班以下制一人13班以上每12班增制一人"},{"start":3362.389,"end":3381.763,"text":"13班以上者每12班增至1人高級中等學校12班以下者至1人13班以上者每12班增至1人學校屬跨學制者其專任輔導教師之緣額編制應依各學制規定分別設置這樣子嗎這樣子沒錯各位條文很重要有沒有意見"},{"start":3393.993,"end":3407.419,"text":"行政院版的?對OK 好 大家沒意見 那我們第十條條文就這樣子通過好不好謝謝 然後呢附帶決議就麻煩范雲委員跟教育部再來做一個說明范雲委員的附帶決議第十條教育部看過了嗎OK"},{"start":3409.926,"end":3432.893,"text":"可以嗎我補充一下就是那個一年內要把那個怎麼樣讓嚴寧協助學校針對前開狀況之具體方案以協助學校介入性輔導工作之推動可以嗎尊照辦理好尊照辦理部長說尊照辦理可以來我們看第十一條也非常的重要"},{"start":3435.953,"end":3449.903,"text":"第十一條目前來說第十一條各位來我們先翻到第十一條教育部要不要先對於你們所做的修正因為上次我們委員討論的非常多教育部要不要針對你們所做的修正先來報告一下第十一條條文"},{"start":3452.475,"end":3469.956,"text":"主要是高級中等以下學校及學校主管機關設置專業輔導人員的設置基準那原本是學校的部分是可以設專業輔導人員的但是必須是達到班級數55班以上就可以"},{"start":3470.697,"end":3473.499,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":3493.45,"end":3522.049,"text":"第三項就有講了主管機關是可以適時要統籌調派但實務運作上很困難所以這一次的修正就是修改這個重點把55班以上設專輔人的條文文字就把它刪除掉了那將來學校就只剩下專任輔導老師那至於專業輔導人員就統籌設在主管機關的學生輔導智商中心不過在一、二、三"},{"start":3523.77,"end":3549.702,"text":"第三項也有講不一定設在主管機關的內部它也可以設在學校裡面或者委由所設學生輔助中心所在的學校或責定之學校聘用之所以對於學生人數規模比較大的這些專輔人員主管機關還是可以把它派在學校裡面就近這個學校跟鄰近學校的服務這是一個重點第二個重點就是"},{"start":3550.796,"end":3550.956,"text":"主席"},{"start":3566.508,"end":3567.889,"text":"董事長董事長董事長"},{"start":3595.402,"end":3605.688,"text":"各縣市的學校輔導案量、地區區域等特殊情況會在這6%去增加配置人力實務上的人數因為增加"},{"start":3610.06,"end":3610.621,"text":"委員黃秀芳等19人擬具"},{"start":3627.296,"end":3629.198,"text":"若依照4,500色役人加6%會變成192所需數字金費約1億6到1億1"},{"start":3645.996,"end":3658.613,"text":"增加的人數其實已經比以現行的基準增加30%左右所以其實有增加了那我們是希望大家可以支持這一個部分以上報告"},{"start":3660.458,"end":3685.523,"text":"我可以先問一下你這個百分之六到底是根據什麼來你到底把資訊放在哪裡就是你的工作地點你的任務到底是什麼你寫一個百分之六這個很含糊耶然後你要把它放哪裡你給我放在放在我的行政單位你也是啊你要把它放在不是放在我的真的很專注的地方也是啊它的任務要做什麼這是第一個我需要回應的需要等一下司長講的還有一個就是你四千到五千這個範圍很大耶你的基準點是從哪裡來"},{"start":3689.344,"end":3690.425,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":3711.801,"end":3735.865,"text":"還有15校的部分,對不起我特別要講一下你剛剛算了我半天,我剛也算了半天我當初寫15校,那是因為你像我們高雄幅員這麼大交通這麼不方便而且我剛剛算過了你20校你現在20校,你如果說15校的話真的比你原本的20校只多出了死長58個人而已好不好你是不是可以考量到一些比較是幅員廣大的地方"},{"start":3736.425,"end":3751.707,"text":"你從20校改完15校其實就是258就是比院板子多了58人你這樣都不能這個是CP值最高的而且真的是你真的必須要思考一下好不好來我們先請其他的這個部分先請那個郭育秦委員"},{"start":3756.373,"end":3782.631,"text":"主席,我剛剛也是看到6%這個部分因為上次其實我有特別提過就是這個偏鄉的部分如果這個額外6%的一個考量不管是他的這個輔導的案量還是地理的區域那整體的一個配套是不是應該要有一個比較具體明確的一個規範因為你如果沒有一個具體的一個規範你其實真的光是不公平的一些案量的分配這個對偏鄉來講其實還是會非常辛苦"},{"start":3786.194,"end":3791.872,"text":"所以這個部分是不是可以有一個比較具體的一個說明給我謝謝好沒問題來我們還有沒有"},{"start":3795.219,"end":3822.444,"text":"還有我剛忘了我們的部長你以前是從局長出來的對不對我們高雄的教育局長你應該呼應一下我的說法好不好安格雄這樣你服務員這麼大還差五十八人好不好部長你是不是也可以根據你過去的親身經驗裡面來發表一下真的是那些服務員那麼大光是舟車老頓別人可以跑五個學校他光是跑兩個學校他就已經一整天就過去我覺得這個還是有區域的差別啦好我先特別指明我們的"},{"start":3823.885,"end":3824.725,"text":"政局長范雲"},{"start":3834.418,"end":3856.113,"text":"我想這一個各縣市地理環境確實是有差異這一個花蓮那個台東可能要更狹長屏東我想包括台中原來的這個縣市的合併大概也都有同樣的一些困境所以我們這裡邊事實上這一個整個從經費因為"},{"start":3857.974,"end":3886.476,"text":"確實有利用這個機會感謝我們主席還有所有的委員我們從失智的培育我們在多元我們同時希望考慮他的服務品質所以有很多的政策我們我想部裡邊跟委員的方向那個理想性都是一樣的可是相對的我們怎麼樣去有一個階段性的一個逐步的去達到我們的所設定的那個理想目標這我想我們把那個方向我們不會打折扣"},{"start":3887.677,"end":3911.616,"text":"那這樣一個是來自於施施的一個培餘一個是來自於經會的投入再考慮到區域上的一些差異性所以我們才會有這一個從驗版裡邊的這一個裡邊衍生出來我們大概去估計了我們現場在施施在區域跟所有人力上的一些需求那我也"},{"start":3913.317,"end":3927.309,"text":"某種程度我們也看到確實主席剛才提到說我們這中央主管機關介於4500到5000的基數這裡邊他確實有一個我們是期待有一個Range因為"},{"start":3929.27,"end":3957.353,"text":"當然我其實有問過我們這吳司長之前我說為什麼我們就不直接4500就好要一個他說部長我們還是用一個這個Range那不然那4499那差一個人那怎麼辦所以大概當時所以我大概就沒有特別的去堅持因為我覺得你從部裡面的立場我們就一個"},{"start":3958.314,"end":3976.543,"text":"一個態度就是說一個比較明確的一個人數來增加但這些所有的人力也跟委員們報告就是說我們希望他是留在各地方縣市政府的等於說那個學生輔導諮商中心"},{"start":3978.644,"end":3979.044,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3998.231,"end":4012.54,"text":"大概做這樣一個補充,所有的想法就是誠如委員所提的,它確實有差異,那差異我們如果定一個單一的辦法的時候,有時候難免很難全面關照,所以才把這個地方的這樣一個"},{"start":4014.961,"end":4033.671,"text":"科與地方應該有這個更大的一個責任應該去協助統籌這個專業輔導人力去協助各縣市的這個各個區域上不同的一些專業人力上的一些服務所以啊我說你的基數是你穩定設在4500以下這也是啊這也是一個彈性啊為什麼要4500到5000呢4500以下也是一個非常穩定的一個基數啊"},{"start":4046.802,"end":4054.929,"text":"我剛只是說4500到5000那任局太大你說一定要有一個保持彈性我覺得你的彈性放在4500以下吧4500當作是一個點啊或者說我們用4500為原則這個當然都很會走對啊 類似的而且我說實在我還是要提醒一下剛剛我們所講的都不包含偏鄉條例額外設置的212位的專府人員是不是 司長還有次長"},{"start":4069.222,"end":4090.988,"text":"我剛所講的都完全我要百分之百確定完全是包含偏鄉條例裡面給我們的只要百分之百確定就好好來我們先請那個誰那個雅琳委員那部長請教一下跟司長請教一下因為這個4500到5000是一個非常大的數字那到底各縣市政府他們如何決定他要用哪一個數字去來計算呢"},{"start":4096.656,"end":4121.728,"text":"委員跟范雲委員因為那個實際的人數跟校數跟基數我想要請司長幫我確定一下我現在的算法是不是對的如果我們用校數15校基數4500跟6%的彈性我認為有機會我們其實是有機會的當然還有跟行政院討論因為這個部分是由中央支付對吧是嗎對部分"},{"start":4127.074,"end":4140.826,"text":"中央出的比較多所以我們還是要來請行政院考慮一下所以如果我們降低校數到15個學校大概就會是258個人比你們教育部現在的版本就增加了58個人我的算法到目前為止是對的嗎"},{"start":4142.506,"end":4142.646,"text":"秘書穩定困境"},{"start":4160.37,"end":4160.47,"text":"委員黃秀芳"},{"start":4181.926,"end":4182.126,"text":"副副委員"},{"start":4204.74,"end":4228.18,"text":"當然大家都會說在偏鄉怎麼會不開車但有時候你就不知道他為什麼他就是沒有開車可能是他剛好連身體不舒服沒有開車或是他剛好車壞掉了種種原因他就是沒有開車那我們還是可以期待他有所謂的客運記得到偏鄉叫做客運不叫公車那這個情況下就是一個小時一班所以部長您來自高雄高雄的偏鄉也很多"},{"start":4228.84,"end":4246.71,"text":"我剛只是用我最熟悉的花蓮來舉例當然我知道這次行政院很大的財務上的支出當然地方也要有所承擔可是在這個部分我們還是很希望不只是幫偏鄉的老師爭取其實也是在幫偏鄉的孩子跟家長爭取因為偏鄉這幾年的困境其實相對複雜尤其是非常多數位時代的小孩他們其實是被3C養大的那他們所遇到的困境"},{"start":4257.301,"end":4277.667,"text":"我不會全部說都是家長的責任我之前在質詢的時候也跟部長討論過家庭教育的問題所以有機會的話我想我還是希望可以在15班的情況下或是基數固定在4500人15校 sorry15校的部分然後4500人然後額外的6%"},{"start":4278.587,"end":4291.202,"text":"那當然還是要感謝你們原本所保留的偏鄉條例額外有212個這個部分所以這樣聽起來我們的行政院版本應該會更完整的照顧到每一個鄉鎮市的需求謝謝"},{"start":4292.944,"end":4309.878,"text":"好 部長剛剛舉手的時候他要先回應一下謝謝委員的關心其實這也就是我們剛才在提說怎麼樣讓地方政府有因地制宜因為就我們現在所知道地方裡邊的那個學生支付中心它不會就只有一個"},{"start":4310.879,"end":4334.111,"text":"各個縣市它會針對它的地形環境它可能會有的比如說都會的它就是北中南或者東西南北各設一個那有一些轄場的它也可能會有因地制宜不會說讓一個人從北跑到南這就是我們所期待的一個等於說地方你不能"},{"start":4335.453,"end":4335.833,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":4365.117,"end":4365.337,"text":"委員黃秀芳"},{"start":4383.282,"end":4400.249,"text":"鄉村型的這個縣市剛才特別提到花蓮、台東、屏東等等苗栗南投我們現在已經各縣市不會只是設一個它有一個組但是它有一個分辦在不同的地區那我覺得這就是我們所期待的它能夠就近去關照"},{"start":4401.089,"end":4401.289,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4420.267,"end":4420.788,"text":"主管機關專業輔導人員15校"},{"start":4439.19,"end":4440.311,"text":"教育部刪除40班教育部刪除40班"},{"start":4455.367,"end":4455.768,"text":"委員黃秀芳"},{"start":4478.806,"end":4503.176,"text":"大校駐校專輔人員非常地重要因為它的功能然後它才能更深入了解學校的體系也更能夠深度地服務學生個案也比較能夠促進校內輔導資源的整合研究也指出這是有成效所以我想我還是不希望刪除這個部分但是我想因為今天我們能夠協商的時間也不多那我現在"},{"start":4504.096,"end":4527.21,"text":"先提的話就是說如果教育部一定要堅持你原來的條文的話那我至少希望你們的說明文字來因為你讓這個地方給你等於是讓地方教育局處那個輔導中心去協調嘛可是你要有很明確的文字就是說他必須要就是讓大校、助校、輔導、專輔人員等於是一定要優先能夠有"},{"start":4528.571,"end":4530.792,"text":"主管機關統籌調派專業輔導人員時,已優先派駐至大型學校"},{"start":4546.861,"end":4552.567,"text":"因為我想大型學校要有專輔人員我還是希望維持這個立場那你們因為說各縣市情況不一樣那你希望能夠讓他有這個彈性在那可是你至少因為地方局處我不知道大家的信任度如何啊"},{"start":4562.498,"end":4578.386,"text":"因為我們有受監督也會遇到地方局處不太理會中央那你至少在條文說明裡面的話地方縣市議員或是我們立委未來在監督的時候他就不能夠忽略這個原則那這是我的一個堅持以上"},{"start":4582.974,"end":4606.054,"text":"等一下市長要回應剛剛部長有提到您在高雄市教育局當局長的時候你做了一個很重要的事情我要先謝謝你你說你在整個大高雄有設立據點分別的據點就是修復之中心這個部分好 一個部長 我跟你報告如果我沒有記錯全台灣好像只有兩個"},{"start":4608.36,"end":4608.76,"text":"委員黃秀芳"},{"start":4626.73,"end":4653.359,"text":"但是您剛剛說的那個做法如果以您現在身為部長也許你們可以透過你們是這些縣市政府的主管機關的角色請他們必須要更積極的去想像自己所在的縣市他們如何參考您過往在高雄的做法去廣設這些所謂分站也好分點也好然後不要讓工作人員過度的移動然後讓需要被服務的學生可以用最快的方法禁用這些資源"},{"start":4654.639,"end":4673.064,"text":"可不可以請那個司長想想一下幫部長想一下可以怎麼做務實上謝謝還有剛剛雅琳委員的這個說法還有她的4500你的基點4500到5000這個部分我剛剛說已經任職非常大了有沒有可能變4500以下或者是其他的因素還有郭育群委員"},{"start":4674.827,"end":4694.871,"text":"我補充一下就是說這些在協助偏鄉的這些輔導人員其實他們基本上都是自己在開車啦那我想這個部分其實對他們來講其實都是自行在負擔這樣子的一個交通的部分其實對他們來講也是非常辛苦我覺得這個部分可能還是要就是也回應剛剛裴玉委員所說的這些好 市長"},{"start":4699.811,"end":4725.017,"text":"首先說明第十一條這個所謂的每20校設一個以及4500到5000學生設一個以及再加6%這個統籌的這個設算基準以及合併給各地方政府部門我剛剛講了因為中央可能負擔其中最大一塊經費那少部分由地方自籌所以其實這個合併的權利是由中方主管機關來合併的所以到是5000還是4900還是4800應該是主管機關來做決定那"},{"start":4729.198,"end":4752.038,"text":"我説明是當初為什麽會定中央主管機關決定那為什麽會定4千5到5千就剛才講的因為他確實考慮到這幾年的那個少子化的變動因素對於還是不穩定的狀態所以定一個Range是希望合定之後各地的人力是可以穩定的不會因為學生上去下來就會要增加人或者要減少人的問題"},{"start":4752.819,"end":4773.047,"text":"所以4500跟5500是當時經過仔細推算決的可以處理的方式那第三個要說明的是說確實是我們現在把55班以上住校的通通收回到地方來了那當然如同剛才部長所說的其實地方實務運作上他也會考慮到因為我人數多了之後我即是要做責任區域劃分的那其實"},{"start":4774.648,"end":4797.733,"text":"滿多縣市其實可能只有一個中心但它會有分北區南區會有不同的辦公地點那個地方就是要就近服務啦那我想將來這個情況學校地方在主管機關在統統分配一定會考慮這個問題那如同剛才那個范委員還有柯委員之前也提到提過一個附帶決議就是對於學生輔助比較多的大型學校將來要派駐的時候是不是請主管機關優先派駐"},{"start":4800.254,"end":4817.752,"text":"柯委員是用附帶決議范委員是說用立法說明我覺得我們都可以接受立法說明可以接受那更好啦精神上都是優先派駐那個人員嘛那最後談一個問題就是剛才那個郭育群委員很關心的6%告訴我到底怎麼做分配"},{"start":4818.172,"end":4845.388,"text":"先說立法說明裡頭其實有講我們在立法說明有提到說如果學校所屬的學校因為學區的社經條件或者鄰近安置機構等特殊情況這種情況的負擔就會比較重那另外也提到說有部分縣市因為地理服務員狹長或者離島等因素人口分散這種情況的負擔因為很多時間花在交通上面所以這種情況確實是要加注配注人力的"},{"start":4845.788,"end":4850.169,"text":"請教育部會同各地方政府嚴定依區域學校學生樣態及輔導需求,配置並分派專業輔導人的機制"},{"start":4876.843,"end":4886.613,"text":"部長剛剛的建議很重要就是現在如果我沒有記錯的話好像只有高雄跟雲林有設所謂的不同工作站的概念"},{"start":4889.591,"end":4914.904,"text":"我們桃園也有分南桃園北桃園假設你們不願意改20到15我們可不可以多增加一個附帶決議因為就像剛剛主席也講修復法在修已經不知道是什麼時候了我們增加一個附帶決議好不好我們討論一下就是現在我們都不確定到底誰有誰沒有的情況下或者是盤點各縣市的需求當然主管機關有角色去監督地方政府但地方政府白亂不做就是不做嘛"},{"start":4917.287,"end":4932.167,"text":"我們可不可以有一個附帶決議要求你們協助地方政府積極的確保每一個地方應該要有依實際需求設分點、據點的概念強度可以怎麼增加如果20校沒有辦法調15校的話"},{"start":4934.301,"end":4945.757,"text":"一個的部分當然我跟同仁在了解到目前到底是各縣市政府22個縣市政府那個輔資中心到底是大概多少個不過以我以前服務過的新北市的話新北市設了四個區台北市"},{"start":4951.425,"end":4955.127,"text":"現行的規定是設在學校裡面主管機關的部分是20人以上的部分是設一人所以基本上設在主管機關的人數本來就是不多"},{"start":4982.225,"end":5010.042,"text":"20班以下每20個學校增加1人加上還有4,500到5,000人還是增加人還有6%的增加人所以總統的部分就會在各主管機關裡面去做一個人數所以第一個人數會增加所以它相對於以前來講會有更多的人數的部分它可以去做分區的配置這是第一個因為法規已經改了人數增加了"},{"start":5010.282,"end":5010.622,"text":"委員黃秀芳"},{"start":5037.529,"end":5039.292,"text":"好,那就這一步年底,不過我還是認為15校"},{"start":5042.74,"end":5062.989,"text":"僅差那58個就不行嗎?對不對?次長二十校到十五校就差那58個你看這麼多委員都提出來包括很多偏遠地區你就可以不用為了這件事情你讓他們每天在這邊奔波只剩下58個你可以解決這麼樣多的問題58人我還是強調不要說20到15算過了就是只有58人這有沒有解方?"},{"start":5070.168,"end":5088.07,"text":"我們可以同意剛剛你們說的這個部分用附帶決議的方式我覺得好可是我還是覺得20到15就差那58又不是差到580 58人所有的委員都贊成這樣一個部分這個部分有沒有修改的空間有的話我現在要唸條文了趕快第十一條就可以唸過了"},{"start":5090.738,"end":5105.407,"text":"我先說明因為行政院當初在看第十條第十一條的時候是整體考慮的對他放在為什麼在第十條去加碼很考慮的原因就是因為輔導老師就住在學校裡面我就可以就近服務我的學生"},{"start":5106.608,"end":5134.8,"text":"這種情況之下當然在第十一條相對來講它就會比較支持教育部原本的版本所以這個地方如果再加就會變成雙重都加了那因為先說大家應該有印象之前行政院這個院版條文為什麼在行政院院會排了幾次都沒排進去很大一個原因就在第十條第十條去斟酌可能需要人力配置跟經費然後行政院內部去做溝通所以我相信這個方案在人總組總在態度上都是支持的啦所以如果要再做調整這恐怕就需要重飛"},{"start":5135.64,"end":5138.261,"text":"董事長現行規定的部分只有20班以下的部分是配置相關人數新修法修正以後有三種配置方式"},{"start":5163.695,"end":5170.961,"text":"等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具"},{"start":5188.976,"end":5190.317,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":5213.225,"end":5230.079,"text":"剛剛我比較希望確保大校有專訪人員那個要納入你們的說明文字剛剛主席也支持嘛沒有問題那當然就是說那個協調會不會好我們就是要看結果了啦那當然我也支持就是說有一個附帶決議把剛剛講那個分區中心能夠納入這樣所以大家都可以接受嗎"},{"start":5236.035,"end":5243.145,"text":"你們都可以接受那我先問一下部長"},{"start":5249.109,"end":5276.098,"text":"謝謝那個次長的說明就是我們把10跟11加起來看但是我們還是有表達我們對於現場的指導所以我們提出這個困境那如果真的就行政院有困難我覺得附帶決議的功能我們還是希望教育部承擔起協助地方政府在增加這麼多人力之後他必須要把大家各自的困境盤點起來整理需求但因為我不知道主席能不能接受"},{"start":5277.694,"end":5303.343,"text":"我覺得我們就是卡這麼久就是希望在這邊有所突破那可是這個突破點顯然是不如我們大家所預期的啦對啊大家都還是希望能夠真的大家期待很高啊就是希望這次修法這麼多的學生輔導人力的這些的問題我們當然希望真的有給人家更大的突破我肯定教育部非常的努力在做溝通協調啦那到底這個問題出在哪裡是誰家身上"},{"start":5309.472,"end":5338.115,"text":"人總嗎?還是...對啊,這到底出在什麼身上?因為你們顯然都很贊成我們說的說法啊那問題就是到底...然後等一下那個教育部先把那個條文剛剛范雲委員所說的那個入法的條文是不是誰先...先...不是,你要...因為我等一下要宣讀啊你要入到入法你要在那個條文上面先...要寫在哪裡?你是在立法說明是不是?那你...那你要...到時候也要給我們看一下好不好?"},{"start":5338.973,"end":5352.346,"text":"白紙黑紙這年頭什麼都不信真的是白紙黑紙都可能翻盤你這個說了就回去會不會回去之後我們現在說定了就不會再做任何的變動是這樣子嗎"},{"start":5357.853,"end":5377.902,"text":"如果能夠照這樣我們剛才的院版事實上也都有討論過的那我想剛才吳市長也提到人種各採取單位他們也樂意來支持那所以我陳儒我剛才也跟主席還有委員報告過我們有一個遠大的一個理想在那裡"},{"start":5379.141,"end":5397.814,"text":"我們不會打折扣但是在整個施施培育在整個經會在整個效益服務品質上我們只要透過中央跟地方的合作我們逐步的來達成那個附帶決議先寫一下我們再看看有沒有辦法去做這樣的一個處理好不好所以我先第十一條欸你們這樣就OK啦你們這樣就OK囉"},{"start":5412.376,"end":5437.531,"text":"對阿我覺得我回應一下主席主席覺得突然是不是覺得有點孤單有點寂寞這樣我是覺得大家應該是好好再繼續做一些的爭取的那主席這樣好不好因為我剛有聽懂次長的誠意就是說十跟十一其實共同都一定調整還是這邊你先放走我們等一下回來繼續聊我們先回到第四條因為如果把錢拉進來一起看會不會"},{"start":5438.888,"end":5440.209,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":5461.997,"end":5464,"text":"先談第四條你覺得這樣會比較單純一點嗎我們大家都不覺得啊對不對"},{"start":5473.791,"end":5495.839,"text":"而且就我們現在理解來說你剛剛說學生中有幾個點應該只有高雄跟新北有啦其他地方沒有啦高雄、新北你說還有桃園22個縣市有13個縣市都有分區的分區點對而且我最主要是因為少子化就是一個必然的趨勢吧所以你把這個校數降低是因為人少啊不會輕易改變校數而是改變班數啊不是嗎"},{"start":5496.519,"end":5519.526,"text":"所以說我才想說十五校特別的重要是因為它可以幫各縣市統籌的人員再多增加一些啊我們都是在幫他們講話是幫他們考慮很多啊我覺得最主要是是希望大家能夠考慮是源於這個因素嘛那主席可不可以請學特斯你們都有算過嘛那個百分之六然後這個四千五百五千這個就告訴大家譬如各縣市是增加多少這種"},{"start":5520.506,"end":5521.387,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":5546.808,"end":5560.998,"text":"我說明一下剛剛講的二十校4500人或5000人以及外加6%二十校這個數據那就相對於以前是一樣二十校那就200人二十校的部分是200人4500到5000人這樣4500的時候是5300"},{"start":5569.198,"end":5571.022,"text":"530人擬具5,000人擬具5,000人擬具477人擬具6%擬具"},{"start":5579.983,"end":5580.203,"text":"併案審查委員"},{"start":5605.063,"end":5634.475,"text":"像一般在那個新北市大概約略占全國的大部分的數據的百分之二十到六分之一百分之十六十六到二十間所以我以我來以一個縣市為例桃園會增加十四到十六人類似這樣子"},{"start":5636.732,"end":5636.952,"text":"委員黃秀芳"},{"start":5658.787,"end":5679.357,"text":"會在外加,那是外加喔我知道是外加,可是你的記憶板又很少,你的人數很少啊這是學復法要修的主要的目的啊你不要告訴我修了半天你只給我增加14到16,桃園欸那我另外待會跟委員報查一下,那次好小喔第二個要跟委員報,剛才其實貴委員也有問到偏鄉跑來跑去"},{"start":5680.305,"end":5699.406,"text":"剛才大家其實對偏鄉有一個222人的那個想像有點漏看沒有我說我們剛才談的全部沒含偏鄉我們剛才已經確定剛剛市長都已經確定沒有含偏鄉我說想像它的運作所以運作的時候不能夠漏掉那222人"},{"start":5702.646,"end":5731.227,"text":"我們剛才講的773人是不含那222人絕對不能含阿對阿所以220人一起212他是用當年度的國中偏鄉學他年度間會不一樣他看當年度的國中偏鄉所以他會浮動再來就是剛才各位委員問他有交通費有補助交通費所以剛剛解決的幾個問題如果把今天大家談的"},{"start":5732.088,"end":5760.467,"text":"他的20沒有變然後我們把另外兩個指標讓他衝大了到192是達原來的33%增加量為33%再加上偏鄉222人以及他有交通費再加上今天的附帶決議已經放到我們的條文說明會多點各縣市我們要去要求他多點以及就是分區中心還有大校儀優先那個我覺得這整套齁"},{"start":5762.134,"end":5784.628,"text":"這個增加量 我也跟大家報告一個數字現行它的應聘率跟實聘率才從79%升到84%而已所以還有16%是整個現場的人才以下外交方面我也怕各位委員所擔心的我們要顧慮這是幾年幾年就會檢討這幾年後還是會檢討這沒幾年沒幾年還是會檢討所以現行這樣的一個運作"},{"start":5791.272,"end":5792.633,"text":"已經增加達33%然後透過委員今天講的幾個Flight決議讓它實踐不要讓原來"},{"start":5800.333,"end":5800.613,"text":"併案審查委員"},{"start":5831.897,"end":5854.484,"text":"我記得因為之前我們也一直在上次協商後繼續爭取那你們當時說沒有辦法一下增加那麼多的一個理由還有說就是擔心一時之間聘不到這麼多專業的人那我自己是覺得要不然一個方式就是說這條保留繼續爭取另外一個方式就是說附帶決議再增加一個就是三年內就滾動式檢討"},{"start":5856.084,"end":5856.144,"text":"主席"},{"start":5873.516,"end":5873.576,"text":"等19人擬具"},{"start":5894.21,"end":5922.233,"text":"我只是提出那個建議的傅太俊先寫一下我知道大家都很想這個部分保留在目前為止不太可能有我們做了這麼多的努力不太可能有機會變成我剛剛所提到的這個層面有的話就是大家就繼續耗著然後再繼續請再回去行政院大家再協商然後回來告訴我們不太可能都是這個如此嗎"},{"start":5923.505,"end":5942.536,"text":"主席我可以再問一下嗎可以再說一下謝謝主席剛剛署長的說明我們可以了解然後所以我剛剛也才提議嘛我們是回頭看第四條把錢跟人的事情合在一起看因為司長剛剛再度提醒有族種、有人種的關係但我想問您剛剛署長說時聘率只有70幾83點多好"},{"start":5947.279,"end":5969.398,"text":"有可能有一些困境是這樣如果我的想像沒有錯來自實務的經驗其實可能過往有一部分是因為薪資太低嘛對,所以我們還是要回到第四條嘛我的意思是說我的想像如果是跟這個有關確實它跟薪資有關我們很務實來看薪資那至於剛剛范委員已經說要保留嘛如果我們都沒有辦法接受"},{"start":5973.471,"end":5995.939,"text":"我只是說我剛剛只是想要確定那個八十級的這件事情其實真的是跟薪資有關啦我們收到票說絕對是的啦對所以我就回來看第四條新點的部分應該也是很重要的這樣好黃木凱委員是啊我們討論那麼久不就是卡在這邊嗎其實如果說這一件事情好解決的話其實上個會期也就到最後也是通過嘛"},{"start":5996.619,"end":6024.505,"text":"那當然我們又多了三個月的時間來討論其實一樣啊薪資一定沒有辦法讓所有人滿意那但是我們要怎麼樣能夠在這個會期我們有所突破跟進展我覺得這也是重要啊所以比較起來我反而會比較建議因為如果說我們再說要保留然後再研議然後即便是我們委員會協商沒有成然後之後再朝野協商之後再院長協商我覺得還是一樣的問題點"},{"start":6026.461,"end":6047.142,"text":"所以有沒有可能一個方式是附帶決議但是三年內要求檢討甚至兩年內來做這樣子的一個比較積極的一個方向但是我覺得我們的目標都是希望能夠先補足現有的一個不足好不好 謝謝好 那就附帶決議好啦 司長"},{"start":6048.863,"end":6062.819,"text":"學生輔導法第22條本來就該規定就是每5年檢討一次其實我們這次的修法是111年就已經檢討提出建議了只是修法程序很緩慢審查過程那其實我們下一次檢討就是116就是要檢討了啦剛好就是3年"},{"start":6065.071,"end":6091.077,"text":"所以大家不用擔心這條好像很久才不會的我們每五年法令規定每五年就要檢討一次那你這樣讓我們更傷心你們檢五年檢討一次害我們在這邊還是幫這些人講的話都一樣所以你表示你那個檢討沒有用表示之前我在檢討什麼讓我們更傷心就是我們已經晚兩年檢討了如果你這樣講每五年檢討一次我們現在是在補兩年前的破網有點這樣的概念對啊你在那邊檢討老半天所以我心思還這麼低沒有辦法吸引人"},{"start":6093.087,"end":6104.007,"text":"還是沒有辦法吸引人好 我們用附帶局的方法竟然在場的委員都認為其實這樣委員都希望能夠幫我們這些人員真的是我們的學府人員能夠增加更多的一個待遇上面的一個誘因不過"},{"start":6105.322,"end":6124.758,"text":"不過我還是覺得因為我知道這個過程我說實在的教育部也做了一些的努力也很有誠意大家有感受到但是礙於財務的關係所以我認為是好啦我們就是在附帶決議裡面把剛委員所考試的問題全部來處理我們先來看第十一條的條文這是什麼這是附帶決議是吧立法說明好不好看一下"},{"start":6135.64,"end":6139.682,"text":"各高級中等以下學校主管機關應依下列規定致專任專業輔導人員並得適實際需要致兼任專業輔導人員若干人依各高級中等以下學校主管機關"},{"start":6161.69,"end":6186.285,"text":"所主管高級中等以下學校總數合計20校以下者至1人21校至40校者至2人41校以上者以此類推第二就是各高級中等以下學校主管機關所主管高級中等以下學校學生總數除以中央主管機關公告介於4500至5000之基數中央主管機關"},{"start":6187.285,"end":6200.136,"text":"得考量各高級、中等以下學校主管機關所主管高級、中等以下學校之輔導案量、地理區域等特殊情況在不超過前項各款加總計算之全國專任專業輔導人員總數6%範圍內"},{"start":6207.122,"end":6212.249,"text":"依其需求和與特定高級中等以下學校主管機關外加專任專業輔導人員額數不受前項規定"},{"start":6220.316,"end":6243.492,"text":"然後素額不好意思謝謝不受前項規定之限制然後接下來依前兩項規定所至專任專業輔導人員應由高級中等以下學校主管機關統籌調派並得委由所設學生輔導諮商中心所在學校或則定之學校並用之然後這個如果一樣的話我就"},{"start":6249.127,"end":6274.799,"text":"我跳過專科以上學生900以下者應至專任專業輔導人員至少一人超過900人者每滿900人增至專任專業輔導人員一人未滿900人而逾速達450人以上者得試業務需求增至一人但空中大學及宗教研修學院不在此限後面就是我們之前所熟悉的條文大家有沒有意見"},{"start":6277.182,"end":6303.782,"text":"好 那附帶決議這條文我們就通過那附帶局的部分對我們之前要不要先處理之前的委員的部分我們目前附帶決議第十一條附帶決議的部分有范雲委員的這是上一次還有這一次的有三案都是范雲委員的今天有"},{"start":6307.162,"end":6314.523,"text":"好了那個來那個教育部回應一下附帶決議根據委員所提出來的"},{"start":6317.54,"end":6339.26,"text":"教育部在找的時候我先簡單說明我有另外一個新增加的一個是專科以上學校專輔人力相關的附帶決議大家可以看一下有沒有找到我的附帶決議就考量專科以上學校專輔人員的薪資跟輔資中心差不多所以意思就是說很有提升的必要"},{"start":6340.181,"end":6351.707,"text":"請教育部以修正補助要點增訂專科以上學校提升專科以上學校提升專科以上學校提升專科以上學校提升專科以上學校提升專科以上學校提升專科以上學校提升專科以上學校提升專科以上學校提升專科以上學校提升專科以上學校提升"},{"start":6363.353,"end":6365.115,"text":"這是針對專科以上學校專輔人力的薪資應該要比照然後有相關的要點"},{"start":6380.055,"end":6389.14,"text":"實驗教育學生的家長與學生反映雖然適用學輔法,但不了解相關資源希望教育部研議如何加強實驗教育學生需要使用學輔法資源能夠增強讓他們了解其實他們是可以使用學生輔導資源"},{"start":6408.149,"end":6412.052,"text":"那這個宣傳的部分以上就這兩個我先說明一下"},{"start":6424.028,"end":6448.906,"text":"那我的上次的第十一條附帶決議可以嗎?就是專業督導對於心理師社公司專業能力養成、服務品質的把關所以在相關的專業輔導人員設置辦法裡面我希望,因為各地落實的狀況不一樣我希望對於品質的把關這件事情可以訂定有關專輔人員督導的設置規定督導各縣市政府落實相關的規範這部分可以?可以齁?好,謝謝"},{"start":6455.475,"end":6459.896,"text":"還有柯珍委員的你們那時候叫我把較多之大型學校應優先派駐專任輔導人員你們希望把那個應改成宜"},{"start":6486.234,"end":6495.508,"text":"請問音有什麼問題?所以我認為很重要,所以應該用音啊,不是嗎?不能用音嗎?"},{"start":6498.376,"end":6514.61,"text":"這是非常合理的各位你聽聽看助校模式對於學校專業輔導工作具有正面的效益不僅能提供深度……所以針對學生人數較多之大型學校應優先派助專任專業輔導人員並能維持大型學校輔導人力很合理吧"},{"start":6522.125,"end":6526.209,"text":"主席,您的負責決定在哪裡?我說明一下啦來給彭孟凱委員有一疊"},{"start":6538.103,"end":6556.441,"text":"如果我們對於學生人數較多的大型學校有很清楚的定義這個因下的後面就會有執行的強制力那如果因為你沒有定那個因那個到底是在哪裡還是會有衡量的問題所以你要去定義大型學校所以我要給你大型學校的定義嗎你就可以把我放成因嗎那個"},{"start":6558.88,"end":6558.9,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":6579.324,"end":6606.254,"text":"邵官所出來的他不一定在特定的那種大規模的學校中型或是你如果沒有給縣市一個是真正的情形來處理的話那下了陰字他有一些定到那裡會讓他的彈性實時調節您是說中型學校反而是沒有辦法做這樣的處理對他有些要彈性的時候是不是要給地方政府他真實的情形他最清楚那我們給他尊重這也是他們表達的可以可以"},{"start":6607.634,"end":6618.82,"text":"反正這個附帶決議好本席同意來不是你們這樣太多還有沒有有關其他委員的附帶決議第十一條的附帶決議非常多就一步"},{"start":6619.912,"end":6646.529,"text":"的態度?委員所提的附帶決議我們都是遵照辦理另外就剛才講一個就是分區設置還有就是三年內要重新檢討人力費值這塊我們正在研擬文字當中主席我可以最後一個補充嗎我本來還想講的如果都要用附帶決議因為現在的學輔資中心就是這個就是地方主管機關這個他們的考選制度不一樣所以導致於我們之前一直跟你們談的"},{"start":6647.529,"end":6674.869,"text":"相關人員的品質那可不可以你們在這一次修法的時候一樣放附帶決議就好了不用入法相關的考選不管是筆試啊、面試啊什麼對著空氣模擬啊這種你們可不可以跟各縣市政府討論有一個比較rough的版本讓他們知道有所本而不是自己決定愛怎麼考就怎麼考這樣可以嗎那我們才能夠確保進行學輔資中心的品質因為學輔資中心處理的是最困難狀況的孩子嘛"},{"start":6675.569,"end":6675.589,"text":"負擔決議"},{"start":6698.44,"end":6710.27,"text":"資格上是全國一致但是您剛才講到後續有些辦理那個考選的方法大家商量一下有一個比較對有一個最大公約數好不好可不可以你們附帶決議附帶決議寫一下你們進行專輔教師的部分好不好可以嗎專輔教師的部分可以嗎剛剛講是十一條委員剛才講的那個整個資格可能我們沒有辦法用協商的因為資格是怎麼樣就絕對要那樣但是他的考法啦"},{"start":6727.683,"end":6746.344,"text":"今天委員目前所提的是他甄選的程序啦甄選程序而不是我們不涉及到資格因為資格會有些在法規裡面有寫的所以附帶決議的部分我們就我們先條文的部分如果大家沒有問題范雲委員條文部分"},{"start":6747.66,"end":6747.9,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6775.081,"end":6790.853,"text":"來 那就給陳培育委員看一下吧 修正的好 第十條的就第十條的這個附帶決議培育委員OK好不好 那我們就通過好 來 各位第四條 喔 真假立法一直來 來 看一下看一下沒有沒有沒有 第十二條第十二條應該沒什麼問題來 我們看一下各位大家仔細看一下好不好"},{"start":6803.945,"end":6814.189,"text":"以以設置分區學生輔導諮商中心彈性方式配置輔導人員以便就近調派及時提供鄰近區域學校輔導資源服務對於人數較多之大型學校優先派駐專業輔導人員以維持大型學校學生輔導工作穩定的發展"},{"start":6832.536,"end":6833.556,"text":"十二條"},{"start":6856.115,"end":6882.875,"text":"我說明一下12條各位可以看一下原本12條的敘述在學校因為有55班以上的專業輔導人員在文字敘述上都是把學校的輔導人員跟任輔導老師的職責就敘寫在一起但是我們現在已經確定了就是住校的那一塊已經拿掉全部都是由地方的輔助中心統統調派所以文字上做了配合調整那這一條會有保留是因為剛才那個住校那個要等11條確認那現在"},{"start":6884.696,"end":6908.307,"text":"已經確定了十二條我這樣可以吧合法吧把紅字念一遍就好因為前面我們都熟了吧條改就是學校主管機關所致專業輔導人員負責執行儲遇性輔導並協助發展性及介入性輔導之推動OK 好吧我們就修正通過好 謝謝來 我們現在是17條來 司長"},{"start":6914.463,"end":6931.311,"text":"17條原本有兩項第一項是談到學生輔導相關工作人員要對於學生的這個涉及到各自的部分要予以保密避免外洩啦除非是緊急危難的情況不再實現那第二條講的就是這些"},{"start":6932.071,"end":6932.291,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":6947.193,"end":6963.902,"text":"增列成第17條之一那同時針對那個專業倫理準則是不是由中央主管機關訂定以及將來如果違反專業倫理規定的話調查處理懲戒的規定大概是有委員有做提案啦那這個部分我們經過內部的討論是"},{"start":6966.463,"end":6989.93,"text":"同意第十七條的第二項予以刪除以列到第十七條之一的第一項大家可以看到黑字的部分那個是從原本第七十一條之二移過來的那增加第二項就是前項所稱的專業倫理是指前項學生輔導工作相關理念按其身分別或專業別依教師法、心理師法及社工司法相關規定所應遵守的倫理規範換句話說"},{"start":6992.071,"end":7016.716,"text":"教師法、心理師法、社共司法對於教師、心理師、社共司其實都已經有很嚴謹的規範了啦理論上應該回到這些相關法令的規範去做處理我先做以上的說明 謝謝同意啊 布版可以啊這樣看起來比現行的條文更加的完整啦"},{"start":7023.425,"end":7050.507,"text":"黃孟楷委員謝謝還有沒有我這邊我先講很快講完和你講我是覺得好像增訂沒有比較好因為本來就不同身份別就會有應該遵守他自己的專業規定我反而覺得就是說如果沒有依照因為本來我們就說有的條款的話那應該就是用個附帶決議教育部應該要去把就是說跟教師相關的"},{"start":7053.35,"end":7070.144,"text":"教師進行輔導工作的時候其實也會涉及到專業倫理而且學校的空間跟一般的專業諮商的環境不大一樣這個首密的部分就要一步應該要去參考民間專業倫理守則廣泛收集意見溝通確保教師進行輔導工作時也有專業倫理的守則就是可以確保"},{"start":7076.27,"end":7092.565,"text":"因為這樣就回到我們原本要跟你們遊說我們的條文的時候你們就說讓他們回去遵守原來的那本來就應該遵守原來的這是基本的所以這裡應該如果不要依照原本我跟陳培偉的版本的話那應該是要一個附帶決議你們去"},{"start":7095.307,"end":7109.273,"text":"參考民間專業倫理的譬如說輔資學會也定有學生輔導公共倫理守則然後他各個剛剛講相關的社工的話那去修訂你們原本的東西啊譬如說教師的部分是不是增訂在這裡面我覺得應該是這樣才對吧"},{"start":7116.294,"end":7144.999,"text":"因為我們原本是叫你們要訂一個學生輔導工作專業倫理規範嘛那你們的理由就是說這樣跌床駕屋就各專業團體都依照社工依照什麼身份那如果這樣社工依照什麼身份他考證教各方的時候專業本來就有了那我們現在講的是說校園的範圍比較廣比如說有教師沒有這樣的身份可是進行輔導工作的時候那其實都應該要有一個專業倫理的守則規範可以依選所以請教育部副代主委請教育部去參考"},{"start":7149.138,"end":7166.658,"text":"謝謝主席我要講的題目可能有一點大但是我想請教育部應該懂我的意思把整套學生輔導法打開來看我們這一次想要強調的除了大家在意的新點然後班級人數的調整之外其實我們希望這一次修法讓大家更看見三級輔導機制的連貫性"},{"start":7169.121,"end":7169.281,"text":"委員黃秀芳"},{"start":7193.123,"end":7195.164,"text":"等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":7222.613,"end":7248.434,"text":"確保這些人有沒有謹守專業倫理我還是會擔心當然我知道你們說的心理師、社工師、教師都已經有相關的專業倫理規範這個我沒有問題但如果我們自己不要忘記三級輔導機制是未來我們要落實努力的目標並且我們會有大量的教育宣導、政策對話讓學校裡面的每一個人都知道他必須承擔這個工作那我們就必須要有專業倫理"},{"start":7249.855,"end":7249.875,"text":"佈局長"},{"start":7277.497,"end":7292.828,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒我覺得在這個規範裡邊這個確實在學生的權益在處理邊不會是只有老師、心理師或社工師學校的校安人員或行政同仁有可能甚至"},{"start":7293.769,"end":7318.583,"text":"自公、幹事等有可能有經手參與初級預防的過程上是有可能接觸到這個個案許多相對的隱私權利等等的那怎麼樣去維護確保我是具體建議是不是也是一樣用附帶決議把"},{"start":7320.066,"end":7341.656,"text":"併定教育相關人員如校安人員、幹事、志工等對於輔導工作的保密指引那這裡邊的保密指引也在併定的時候也請跟這個相關的老師、心理師、社工室的一些團體能夠大家一起來研擬一個相對的一些怎麼樣去落實這個專業倫理的規範"},{"start":7344.654,"end":7353.062,"text":"所以目前為止你說這邊第17條還要再用一個附帶決議的方法來處理未竟事宜是不是是這樣子嗎"},{"start":7359.884,"end":7360.024,"text":"執行局局長"},{"start":7386.264,"end":7414.273,"text":"對 主席這一點我也是想請教我們教育部你現在的法條其實我看完之後我覺得你們這樣子的修正其實是合乎邏輯的那其實說實在不管是教師、心理師或是輔導人員他也本來就已經有這些倫理的規範那我們只是說他跟社會跟學生輔導法是說他的對象是學生但他不因為說他對象是學生或說他對象是一般人他就有不同的倫理啊"},{"start":7414.733,"end":7432.689,"text":"是阿,所以你有沒有必要在這一條這個完全不是為什麼會我們對反而是好像才會讓大家覺得是有跌床駕屋的狀況阿當然我們有委員提出來我覺得也是很嚴謹沒有錯但是重點是其實這個有沒有必要這樣做"},{"start":7435.28,"end":7460.413,"text":"跟委員報告就是說本來我們也相信老師、心理師、社工師他們都有專業倫理的法條在規範這沒有問題但是我剛才要補充的委員所提的就是說你在參與的過程不會是只有老師有時候可能校安人員校安人員他不一定是老師所以變成是教育人員裡邊我們在法條上的規範可能利用"},{"start":7461.013,"end":7461.073,"text":"董事長"},{"start":7469.634,"end":7496.679,"text":"沒有受教師法、心理師法跟社工師法規範規範的之外的人假設他也有剛好參與或是知道這個訊息怎麼樣去...部長,洪委員的意思就是他跟我的意見是說其實所有這些專業人員本身就會受到這些法條的約制而且他們本身就具有非常的專業上部分所以不需要在17之一的這個層面裡面額外還要再去提出來不需要在學生輔導法最後"},{"start":7497.619,"end":7497.939,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7520.239,"end":7547.695,"text":"我是覺得不用增訂但是要有個附帶決定那個相關的人員跟機制當然當然在附帶決定裡面決定的不用在17之一告訴我們大家應盡的一個責任好像我是小朋友我已經知道我要幹嘛了你又給我一條我覺得這對我來說對啊這是天經地義的事情好不好OK好17之一3然後就用附帶決定裡面額外再去做一個處理這樣子好不好好感謝"},{"start":7548.695,"end":7576.653,"text":"那主席我確定一下因為我當時就有提出附帶決議意思就是學生輔導工作相關人員如學校老師、學務創新、相關人員職員、教練、社團教師、志工等對於學生輔導的職業、花壺如保密等有關違反專業倫理之專業輔導教師、心理師、社工事因應相關辦法處理所以也請教育部確定這個附帶決議是否可以主席主席抱歉抱歉另外你說現在17之一是要拿掉那這樣我建議這一條就不要修啦"},{"start":7578.075,"end":7578.915,"text":"維持線型條文維持線型條文維持線型條文"},{"start":7599.474,"end":7627.659,"text":"所以你還是有修文字要確認文字要確認你看你的現行條文是前向人員並應遵守相關嘛是不是現行法對啊現行法是前向人員嘛可是你現在的文字是學生輔導工作相關人員所以要就是這一條就不修但是你用附帶決議要就是要改病因"},{"start":7629.861,"end":7655.028,"text":"警守專業倫理這就是原有條文所以我們就不修正維持現行條文好不好然後其他剛剛大家所考試的請用附帶決議來做一個處理那附帶決議請到時候給我們看一下17條的附帶決議教育部有看過范雲委員沒有沒有沒有17條有范雲委員的這個部分教育部的意見陳佩瑜委員這剛剛"},{"start":7660.532,"end":7680.68,"text":"對 對 對所以他把17之一的那個附帶決議把它拿回來好 我先跟大家討論一下我們現在3點45分我們第四條的附帶決議很重要各位要繼續還是我們擇旗尊重大家意見就擇旗你不要以為我們都很閒的樣子我們很忙欸"},{"start":7686.202,"end":7711.451,"text":"第四條我們現在只剩下第四條負債決議我覺得第四條負債決議剛剛那個其實還是有一些的想法啦我不覺得還沒討論但是我的意思是說我們現在已經3點43分部長我要把這弄完我可以但是部長從早到現在他們我可以對我們只我們把這邊處理完只剩下第四條的負債決議"},{"start":7715.828,"end":7729.296,"text":"條文修正草案就是附帶決議的新點有問題第四條條文沒有問題附帶決議裡面對於薪資的部分大家非常的有好沒問題來"},{"start":7741.792,"end":7753.987,"text":"好,好,那就可以啊就如果說大家還是繼續把它完整我是,我是就OK,好哎負擔決議啊,停一下,停一下,快點"},{"start":7756.145,"end":7756.706,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7777.219,"end":7778.94,"text":"第十一條還有兩個附帶決定"},{"start":7807.211,"end":7807.712,"text":"教育部的意見"},{"start":7828.646,"end":7853.32,"text":"好 附帶決議 教育部若沒有意見的話我們就附帶決議就通過那第十一 第十七條之一我還要唸嗎還是大家已經OK了可以嗎附帶決議啊附帶決議啊螢幕上是對啊 附帶決議啊我們剛剛已經討論過啦通案嘛 對不對通案 把17條刪掉"},{"start":7857.361,"end":7876.304,"text":"有關學生輔導工作相關人員的這個部分三個月內研議並提出規劃報告然後我們要訂立學生輔導工作相關人員就下面這些人對於學生輔導之指引如保密等第二是有關違反專業倫理規範之專任輔導教師、心理師、社會工作師因依教師法鬥點吧心理頓浩心理師法及社會工作師法之規範處理OK"},{"start":7890.51,"end":7907.384,"text":"第十條第十一,您的負擔權可以這樣兩個這樣去寫嗎?所以呢?好,OK,就把它放在一起就對了,OK,好,來回到第四條"},{"start":7909.096,"end":7935.054,"text":"所以我們第十七條就這樣子照行政院版本的通過嘛好不好然後第四條第四條條文我們是通過的我們現在是在附帶決議的部分來 司長維持現行版本維持現行版本現行條文是維持現行條文還沒有我們還沒有結束啊還沒有結束第四條要怎麼樣我們要現在開始討論啊"},{"start":7937.304,"end":7957.759,"text":"第四條我們第四條要討論一下就是最重要的第四條主要是因為在委員會完成審查之後在朝野協商的過程當中我們也希望爭取時間趕快來及早研議啦所以謝謝我們部裡頭林長賜幫忙召集也邀了行政院人事總署、組織總署、衛福部還有"},{"start":7961.783,"end":7962.003,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":7979.071,"end":7994.365,"text":"學士學位或者碩士學位目前的薪水是差一階那這個部分希望從差一階調整為差兩階所以普遍心理師的待遇一個月應該會增加兩千塊左右這是第一個重點"},{"start":7995.306,"end":8019.807,"text":"第二是專輔人員擔任督導的部分因為我們目前定有條件跟資格的督導必須是學士畢業要服務滿四年碩士畢業要服務滿兩年才具有資格擔任督導而且督導的職責確實是比較重的所以我們經過討論的時候是建議專輔人員擔任督導的時候他的薪水可以在原來的薪水進兩階"},{"start":8022.509,"end":8048.225,"text":"進兩階那這個部分就是當如果他有一定他不當督導了回任專業輔導人員的部分他可能會受到輔導人員天花板的限制但是他這段期間擔任督導的年資是一樣適同輔導人員的年資是可以被採任的那這個大概目前調整的方向是這樣所以督導人員的薪水天花板我們也配合提高調整到跟保護性社工的督導的天花板是一樣的"},{"start":8048.985,"end":8049.145,"text":"委員黃秀芳"},{"start":8068.729,"end":8093.882,"text":"僅僅僅僅僅僅僅僅僅僅僅僅"},{"start":8093.882,"end":8094.082,"text":"委員黃秀芳"},{"start":8103.783,"end":8126.957,"text":"一般的心理師可以多兩千如果擔任督導可以再多四千塊因為近兩千嘛大概方向是這樣至於其他的部分因為我們也有跟衛福部建議因為我們這樣調整之後對於社安網的一般性社工其實是有某種程度的衝擊的所以也有請衛福部幫忙就是社安網的第二期計畫到明年底截止可能整個計畫也要重新做思考調整"},{"start":8127.597,"end":8149.905,"text":"那希望衛福部在這個後續也有所因應以避免社安網一般新社工往學校這邊大量移動造成那個排擠跟衝擊以上說明所以你那個社安網的那個部分要請衛福部責成他們的薪資說實在我們每次都環環相扣他們的薪資每次都考慮到所以他們應該是努力把他們的薪資也往上提升因為他們真的是非常的辛苦啊不是嗎"},{"start":8150.485,"end":8159.347,"text":"我們前面五次會議那個衛夫每次都有來他們基本上過程充分參與他也尊重我們目前的規劃他們也知道將來聯動那邊要去進行下一波檢討"},{"start":8172.045,"end":8185.4,"text":"你一定要跟著調整啦不過我是說社工師應該就是要讓他們更調高一點啦每一次我們也是怕的因為有這樣子所謂的剝奪性的概念啦剛剛說會往我們這邊來擬但問題就是他們那邊的薪資你永遠不調整我們這邊說實在也考慮到彼此好像在幹嘛彼此在牽托欸"},{"start":8193.469,"end":8203.76,"text":"這個東西是不對的啦所以我個人認為說衛福部這個層面上也要為社工師的這個新點的這個部分也是要多多爭取他們的權益啊各位委員附帶決議有沒有意見"},{"start":8208.49,"end":8227.126,"text":"我先說明因為委員對於那個第四條的附帶提了好幾個那我們有考慮過因為有一些條文我們經過討論是做不到的譬如說主管加擠、職務加擠、專業證照加擠你把那個附帶決議給各位委員來看一下好不好我們有發送就是有一個三點的"},{"start":8229.927,"end":8231.588,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8259.687,"end":8260.027,"text":"等19人擬具"},{"start":8281.596,"end":8302.892,"text":"副代決議有兩個一個是專府人員的一個是主任督導的就是內容那當然就是說現在還有一個問題就是那個專業證照加擠的部分那我的版本原本是專府人員持有國家專技高考專業證照者應合理給予職業執照加擠並不應低於保護性設公司職業執照加擠32星點"},{"start":8308.917,"end":8333.989,"text":"那就是這一點那教育部這邊還有好像是衛福部嘛很堅持就是保護性社工那是多少?一、四、二點那個部分是更高的那這個部分就是不知道還有沒有空間啦那其他的部分我已經很盡力的爭取那教育部也一直幫忙爭取這也要肯定教育部的調整那現在的版本我還覺得"},{"start":8335.209,"end":8335.65,"text":"主持人 主席"},{"start":8355.475,"end":8373.201,"text":"我可以先一併問嗎?主席?好,我先一併問好了所以我們確定一下目前大家一起努力爭取的就是參考衛福部相關規定的保護性社工蓄心規定,對嗎?那蓄心規定的算法就會是比照保護性社工蓄心的地板跟天花板143.9星點"},{"start":8375.362,"end":8402.414,"text":"那這個新點的部分等一下請你們做回應當然我知道司長剛有說工作的專業性質還有那個危險性高度也不一樣這個等一下也會再請司長說明那督導會希望以圓心及淨點兩階取代督導加擠這個部分也想請問教育部的看法接下來就是督導會任專輔人員會採記年資這個部分我覺得已經長年來都沒有改變希望這一次有機會改變"},{"start":8403.735,"end":8430.933,"text":"那還有就是採集過去專業工作年資從地板算起像是專輔人員從A縣市的學輔資中心到B縣市的學輔資中心年資過去到底有沒有加上去那未來修法後可不可以加上去再來就是心理師從七等二階起薪那因為心理師他們每一個只要是國家考試合格的心理師都是具有碩士學位這件事情我覺得他們必須要被考慮到七等二階"},{"start":8431.753,"end":8448.445,"text":"那目前在職的專輔人員跟著調高薪等這個部分我們也很好奇有沒有機會做到好 以上 謝謝好 最後一步"},{"start":8449.645,"end":8475.905,"text":"還有教育部根據剛剛委員的說法大家都極力要爭取然後呢我知道這是大家經過非常多的這樣子有沒有機會再可以給予更完善根據委員所提出的各副的決議當中因為我們現在目的決議總共有九份那我們希望不用一一來做一個處理希望能夠納為一個大家最完整的一個版本然後呢做這樣的一個處理否則處理不完"},{"start":8478.668,"end":8488.944,"text":"培育委員跟范育委員的想法 司長首先說明委員對於專輔人員跟督導的續期起點跟天花板"},{"start":8490.783,"end":8509.601,"text":"還有督導的起點跟天花板我們現在幾乎是做的方向是跟大家的提議是一致的而且我們幾乎都已經對應到保護性社工的狀況了但我們不太可能再超過它這是第一個先說明的第二個剛剛提到的關於那個32新點的問題"},{"start":8512.143,"end":8512.845,"text":"民間團體承攬社會福利工作"},{"start":8524.42,"end":8525.14,"text":"副主席"},{"start":8545.971,"end":8563.084,"text":"四千塊 但還是說清楚那個是衛福部給民間團體希望他們不要只聘社工員而能夠提供到社工師所補助給民間團體希望減輕民間團體的負擔而願意聘有證照的人那個四千塊並不是直接幫他"},{"start":8564.705,"end":8585.845,"text":"並不當作幫他們加薪的概念那因為我們的這個學校的專業輔導員從頭到尾就是一定要具有專業證照的這個情況之下其實沒有那個空間再去加那四千塊啦因為討論過程上這個部分有跟人種、族種、未婦反覆討論這個部分是完全沒有人贊同的所以這個是有困難的"},{"start":8588.786,"end":8601.427,"text":"我們唯一還沒處理的真的我們能努力的還沒有處理的就是折扣率那一塊也是大家還有不同意見其實也折扣率本來就可以採記他當督導回來之後督導年資也算專府人員督導"},{"start":8603.457,"end":8627.831,"text":"還是一句話啦那個什麼司長、次長還有部長等一下我真的還是覺得我們今天為什麼這時候是重中之重呢因為我們如果這次還是一句話了我們沒有辦法讓專府人員有感那這個薪資其實是個非常現實中不能叫他每次都去做功德我知道大家很努力的啦但是呢就是因為我們剛開始就是因為有人認為要法治化現在我們大家退縮覺得法治化可能不太能有"},{"start":8629.012,"end":8655.188,"text":"法治法可能在薪資的部分你完全沒有辦法來做一個迴避但是我還是要強調我真的還是要強調這個以七等二很多人都強調以七等二階來做起薪然後進敘清點的最高是到八等七階這很多委員特別會去提到然後呢專府的人員原因為什麼我們要特別提到因為現在心理師及有碩士學位的社工師都用六點四階來聘真的是非常"},{"start":8655.708,"end":8656.008,"text":"委員黃秀芳"},{"start":8671.826,"end":8674.669,"text":"等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":8697.731,"end":8719.953,"text":"我真的是每次講到這個地方我們現在目前為止因為不管是怎麼樣大家已經做了這麼多的努力了但是我還是要強調這是給這些過去長期給大家這麼辛苦在第一線工作者一個最基本的一個交代千萬不要認為說我們這樣的爭取好像為他們做多少的什麼事情過去真的是太低了所以呢大家看看這講到這邊就非常的感慨"},{"start":8721.354,"end":8745.682,"text":"第四條的附帶決議的部分因為我也覺得如果我們再堅持下去然後包括你們剛剛所提到的這個如果是我們的人種我們都沒有辦法各方面大家能夠在這個經費上面能夠做這個層面就會卡關在這個地那教育部剛剛也特別提出了這樣就是我們所提的附帶決議各位委員最後的時間你們就稍微看一下如果覺得可以"},{"start":8746.587,"end":8758.199,"text":"那我們就在這個部分以目前來說就是用這個方式來然後期望在未來當中能夠讓他們可以持續的在做更合理的一個調整各位委員覺得我是非常不滿意啦"},{"start":8764.397,"end":8765.138,"text":"主席我們可以休息五分鐘再繼續一下"},{"start":8779.838,"end":8779.978,"text":"主席"},{"start":8797.541,"end":8806.807,"text":"那個偏鄉交通補助那個其實教育部本來有補助但是它是一年一萬二到現在加一桶油光95的時候我一個月"},{"start":8827.688,"end":8853.594,"text":"我覺得你那針對我講的我是說你那個一千塊錢、一千二那個平均下來一個月補一千欸沒有啦!你剛剛前面就是講我們本來就有補助然後我其實本來就跟我想他講我是打你的所以你講的啊!對啊!那你的補助是一年一千一年才一萬二然後最多最多你劃三個劃三個才一千"},{"start":8856.495,"end":8875.19,"text":"是說是7.2G?7.2G就已經現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊"},{"start":8879.533,"end":8880.353,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8900.079,"end":8900.839,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":8930.948,"end":8934.873,"text":"那只是他要去比對一下跟原來的提案跟原來的提案是一樣的"},{"start":8944.226,"end":8947.068,"text":"而且有在運動很容易餓 我很怕同仁起來我會覺得為什麼這個市長一直在吃東西"},{"start":8961.517,"end":8969.759,"text":"你每天都有去補嗎?沒有,因為到年底要比賽,校園開的里程現在聽著,上班前幾點要出門?高中門是140.3現在是下雨的地點雨前還是在報?"},{"start":8983.843,"end":9002.496,"text":"有幾次我到國北要出門想說我到底要不要出門還是在家跑跑步騎可是我家跑步騎比較舊我跑得很不習慣我就決定走到國北去看看有沒有人也在跑每次都有人有更豐富有人在跑我就趕著跑下雨的時候在學校操場"},{"start":9007.999,"end":9008.019,"text":"蔣麗芳議員"},{"start":9030.271,"end":9034.057,"text":"因為我家人都在台北,所以我根本沒有什麼回家、回鄉過年這種事情"},{"start":9046.734,"end":9053.479,"text":"所以說我跟我太太都是台北人嗎?也沒有說你要保留信息?目前都是OK的年假比較多"},{"start":9067.749,"end":9073.552,"text":"沒有啦我剛剛其實看到我上次的我剛剛主任剛剛在看負債決議當中負債決議當中其實大家還是認為那個這個新點的折合率應該到143.9"},{"start":9081.718,"end":9107.206,"text":"折合率這塊143.9你算上去還是1500然後加上你剛剛所提到第二項2000、3500我說實在才有感我們講務實一點督導還提了兩階4000沒有兩階督導督導你也要專業到一個程度才有辦法當督導沒有啦我個人覺得說當初我們所提出來的東西還是在這個折合率希望能夠提高到143.9"},{"start":9109.428,"end":9116.7,"text":"我覺得這個東西沒有辦法再努力嘛我們也是花這麼久的學...我們還要花這麼久的時間啊143.9啊143.9啊你這樣才可以到1500嘛"},{"start":9123.186,"end":9142.921,"text":"第三,沒有,你那個部分最主要是你做合理的調整但是你並沒有很明確,像第二條非常明確的告訴我們說你現在是做這樣的處理,只是說未來做合理的調整這只要做未來合理的調整,然後這個部分我說實在的,這個很快就會廢話起,你知道嗎對"},{"start":9147.256,"end":9169.743,"text":"所以有沒有辦法在這個143.9的部分請教育部再多做努力一下我知道你剛才講的很明白嘛督導就多四千嘛我們一般的輔導是兩千嘛但是你第三個這個新點的折合率如果能夠到143.9的話你每個月可以有一千五嘛你可以一千五所以就變成四千這樣三千五欸三千五一個月三千五我覺得一個月三千五問題在哪裡我們現在是要找誰"},{"start":9177.736,"end":9199.785,"text":"這個之前我們大概都跟人總、族總大家都討論過而且跟衛福部包含那個什麼那個保護性社工基本上他的個案的部分是相對來講是比較工作性質還是有差異還是要工作性質相近職責相當所以基本上還是有些差異是啊所以我們把那個什麼那個地板跟天花板的部分都大家"},{"start":9200.7,"end":9201.842,"text":"我們再休息五分鐘"},{"start":9240.517,"end":9257.982,"text":"143.9把他明確標示出來這樣我們才比較會有保障嘛不行,但是我們就覺得有數字在那個地方就像你的那個還是比較更明確一點嘛"},{"start":9311.121,"end":9311.461,"text":"委員黃秀芳委員"},{"start":9335.291,"end":9335.951,"text":"委員黃秀芳委員"},{"start":9364.878,"end":9383.525,"text":"那我剛剛說另外一個那個專業的那個證照加擠的部分就是沒有辦法是吧就是保護禁制就是跟保護性社工的那個職業執照加擠32星點那個部分現在就討論這件事因為二都沒有問題現在就二的部分嘛我們現在討論二的部分嘛"},{"start":9390.68,"end":9405.03,"text":"剛剛司長跟次長有特別提到這個保護金社工明年一月會...根本是所有的啦明年本來就配合軍公教條先調3%所以他基本上折額率就會跟著調啊如果是以現在是143.9乘以1.03啊你說現在是多少143.9"},{"start":9425.623,"end":9432.568,"text":"我覺得我是被那個言義合理調整那個言義兩個字有點卡住我只要看到言義兩個字我就覺得"},{"start":9434.267,"end":9457.845,"text":"這個薪資的調整的部分不是教一部直接單讀就可以做決定這個就是我剛特別看到的嘛我可以同意你說這個綜合律不要寫143.9因為就是配合這個可是言義合理調整當你寫言義的時候表示你只是在言啊你在義啊但是你可能不執行啊可不可以給我一個更好的動詞"},{"start":9462.512,"end":9466.036,"text":"各位 我們正在同一條線上 三位同仁到最後了"},{"start":9487.318,"end":9487.939,"text":"作合理調整"},{"start":9501.96,"end":9502.42,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9525.413,"end":9546.026,"text":"因應《少年事件處理法》修法後之曝險與偏差行為、校園暴力事件行為行為人輔導之挑戰性、專輔人員之新典折合率因考量其工作職責、參佐社會安全網保護性社工之新典折合率做合理調整意思就是說我講白話一點每個月還可以多一個1500塊"},{"start":9555.015,"end":9574.593,"text":"雖然是文字上這樣調整我們會同意這樣文字上調整但是它實際上的調整我們還是要循那個程序還是要把跟因為最後的那個調整的部分的話還是要報到行政院所以之前的部分教育部會跟相關部會包含人總跟組總去做討論討論完以後我們報到行政院那由行政院他們再去做一個審酌"},{"start":9575.794,"end":9576.094,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":9596.282,"end":9622.23,"text":"但是當初談的時候認為那個保護性社工他的工作職責的部分跟我們學校的部分還是有些差距所以這一點即使我做文字的調整但是真正會不會落實到這個部分還是要去做爭取我知道好"},{"start":9624.213,"end":9650.36,"text":"那我們現在是不是只能賦予教育部好好的是啊因為現在我們做任何的這個部分裡面也還是要到人總還要到我們的組計組總那邊去做任何的一個處理後面的部門還必須要走行政程序那我不會處理老半天到時候程序告訴我說因為經費考量不予通過至少剛剛講那個第二段是我已經目前談的結果是基本上是有共識的"},{"start":9652.216,"end":9675.416,"text":"第二點做演繹嘛意思就是說如果他們同意的話他就是2000塊再加1500塊因為143.9算起來就差不多是1500塊就是差不多是3500塊的一個月大概是這樣我們講白話一點應該就是這樣子的處理但是這個部分就是教育部認為這一塊他們是可以目前為止他們可以爭取到最大但是最後的拍板定案還是要回到我們行政院的一些流程程序嘛好不好那可以的齁"},{"start":9679.888,"end":9700.356,"text":"主要就是現在聘任率只有84%離職的人又非常多所以我們當然還是希望爭取到更高包含就是說我剛剛講到就是跟保護性社工這個部分那當然你們的理由就是說其實風險不大一樣然後就涉及到這個政府整體的規劃"},{"start":9701.556,"end":9720.815,"text":"那我們現在也沒有辦法去幫保健社工爭取更多錢嘛因為那是衛福部的部分所以我想就是看大家覺得是要現在這樣先往前走還是要繼續爭取這樣繼續爭取我們精神跟高危同在而且已經一直溝通跟爭取了看起來非常多智慧"},{"start":9721.615,"end":9750.521,"text":"因為我們大家做到這個部分我們即使爭取再多然後條文寫了這麼多到最後它還是根據行政院一些程序嘛所以我們搞不好講得很嗨到最後全部告訴我們說都沒辦法所以我們來一個最合理的一個方式啦那是不是可以坑清委員所有你們的附帶決議我們就以第四第四條的附帶決議就以這張為基準點其他的九項就不用了好不好這樣會比較單純一點因為這差不多折衷啦大家就簽在那上面啦但教育部不是"},{"start":9751.161,"end":9752.021,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9776.067,"end":9787.651,"text":"非常謝謝來我們最後各位我們還剛剛我們的議事人員提醒我了我們議會有做一些修正所以大家看第三條第三條因為跟第四條是連動的好不好各位看一下第三條是連動最後一個少年"},{"start":9789.963,"end":9791.465,"text":"各位我還有一個附帶決議跟學生賠禮比較有關的跟薪水無關的"},{"start":9811.866,"end":9817.07,"text":"主要就是希望教育部三個月內嚴敏加強向學生求助及轉介資訊的宣傳能夠同儕培力、陪伴者培力等等"},{"start":9839.709,"end":9863.124,"text":"因為現在學生的心理健康問題真的越來越嚴重那包含學生的同儕還有重要他人比如說伴侶尤其是大學生這些那對於相關輔導資源有特別需求可能會因為不是本人就沒有受協助或是不了解如何引導有需要的學生尋求協助或是如何陪伴那這次學生團體就是來跟我澄清的希望"},{"start":9864.085,"end":9867.709,"text":"教育部加強宣傳學生求助及轉介資訊"},{"start":9883.625,"end":9889.767,"text":"來請等一下把那個封面找出來大家照個相很重要來協商的結論就是原審查會通過第3條第4條第5條第12條修正通過然後第10條第11條軍照行政院提案通過第17條維持現行的條文然後我們增進第7條之一及增進第17條之一不予徵定"},{"start":9906.873,"end":9920.899,"text":"擬具通過附帶決議17項擬具其餘軍造審查會審查結果通過擬具檢附立法說明一份擬具然後呢擬具各位擬具我們就簽字擬具然後謝謝各位擬具謝謝大家擬具我們學生輔導法就是協商完畢擬具謝謝大家"},{"start":9928.606,"end":9928.626,"text":"副長來"},{"start":9949.396,"end":9952.778,"text":"總算了總算了辛苦了辛苦了辛苦了謝謝謝謝謝謝市長"},{"start":9973.948,"end":9978.391,"text":"副副副副副副副副副副副副副"},{"start":9994.025,"end":9997.607,"text":"學生輔導法修法完成學生輔導法修法完成"},{"start":10025.651,"end":10026.472,"text":"學生輔導法修法完成"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:03:09.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:03:12.649000+08:00","text":"我們現在就宣告開始開會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:03:13.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:03:20.839000+08:00","text":"謝謝所有立法院的同仁，還有我們行政機關的代表，教育部同仁\n辛苦了，今天真的是非常長的一天，謝謝部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:03:24.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:03:24.903000+08:00","text":"我們現在就來進行黨團協商。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:03:24.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:03:27.344000+08:00","text":"我們的主題是教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員范雲等 17 人\n擬具學生輔導法部分條文修正草案等 30 案，還有經院會逕付二讀與相關提案併案協商的行政院\n函請審議等 5案的黨團協商。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:03:27.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:04:53.707000+08:00","text":"我們就開始進行今天的協商，希望今天真的是能有一個結果。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:04:53.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:04:59.570000+08:00","text":"我想學生輔導法如果能夠順利\n在這一次的會期中通過，是全民之福啦！","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:05:00.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:05:55.572000+08:00","text":"現在修法的進度，我們來幫大家回憶一下，我們在 7\n月 4 日跟 8 日已經完成逐條審查，部分的條文已經保留送協商；另外在 7 月 11 日，就在今天之\n前我們有個黨團協議的結論，幫大家複習一下，第四條跟第五條是修正通過，第七條之一、第\n十條、第十一條、第十二條，還有第十七條及增訂第十條之一，含各條對應的修正動議是保留\n，這些是我們今天討論的重點。","quality":0.657},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:05:55.572000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:05:59.375286+08:00","text":"我們也通過附帶決議共 1 項，原審查會保留及新增的附帶決議\n共 15 案我們都是保留的，送院會來協商，我們保留的條文就是等一下要來討論的。","quality":0.035},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:05:59.375286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:06:03.178571+08:00","text":"第四條上次\n已經修正通過，需要再唸一次嗎？","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T14:06:03.178571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:06:06.981857+08:00","text":"附帶決議……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:06:06.981857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:06:10.785143+08:00","text":"附帶決議會，我們先把我們已經有共識的，這樣可以幫助大家，因為已經很久了，我們的記\n憶都有點模糊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:06:10.785143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:06:14.588429+08:00","text":"第四條、第五條是不是需要唸一下？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:06:14.588429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:06:18.391714+08:00","text":"還是不需要？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:06:18.391714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:06:22.195000+08:00","text":"好，不需要的話，我是不是\n先作成一個決議？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:06:22.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:06:22.916000+08:00","text":"因為第四條的附帶決議，有關薪資的部分是重中之重，然後也是最多人會討\n論，我相信是等一下討論最多的。","quality":0.364},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:06:22.916000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:07:05.974000+08:00","text":"為了增進我們的進程，是不是先從第七條之一討論完，最後\n再到第四條的附帶決議，那個是最多討論的，否則我們會變成沒有進展，好不好？","quality":0.036},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:07:05.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:07:07.735000+08:00","text":"現在大家看\n增訂第七條之一，大家翻過來，我們先討論第七條之一。","quality":0.37},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T14:07:07.735000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:07:28.333000+08:00","text":"我想這邊因為也跟教育部來回溝通了很久，我原來希望能夠主張有系統性因素調查的部\n分，部長都有表達他非常願意做啦！","quality":0.118},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T14:07:28.333000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:07:48.931000+08:00","text":"但是他希望不要入法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T14:07:48.931000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:08:09.529000+08:00","text":"我還是要提醒一下，就是我主張的\n這個部分，因為上次都有跟教育部討論，協商後我們也有跟學特司討論，我主張的不是會讓家\n屬遺族覺得很悲痛的個案追蹤回溯，而比較是社會學式的，我們認為要做系統性的研究，對環\n境、身心健康，就是不利身心健康的系統性因素，能夠參考國際的經驗，進行調查研究，而且\n當然研究公布之後，一定是去識別化的。","quality":0.141},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T14:08:09.529000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:08:30.127000+08:00","text":"但是因為跟教育部的溝通……先謝謝教育部願意做啦！","quality":0.048},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T14:08:30.127000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:08:35.569000+08:00","text":"而且我們部長也是相關領域出身的，\n他一定會來做，所以我就不堅持一定要放在條文裡面。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T14:08:35.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:09:14.047000+08:00","text":"我這邊有個附帶決議，就是我剛剛所講\n的，希望參考國際經驗，然後針對學生身心健康不利的系統性因素，不是要做過去衛福部的那\n種個案回溯，而覺得無法執行的部分，我也希望教育部是獨立做，衛福部做他的，可是我們是\n在國教環境，也許學校升學壓力等各方面都有一些不利的因素，當然這次學輔法增加了專業輔\n導的人力的話，也許我們可以慢慢改善。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T14:09:14.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:09:22.773000+08:00","text":"我想這種系統性的研究做了之後，未來相關的學輔資\n源如何……總不能一直增加這個部分，然後不改善環境，我們才能夠有整體好的政策導引。","quality":0.719},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T14:09:22.773000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:09:23.773000+08:00","text":"所\n193\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄\n以我這邊不堅持要入法，但是我有個附帶決議，希望大家能夠支持通過。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:09:23.773000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:09:24.773000+08:00","text":"如果是附帶決議的話，因為我們沒有第七條之一的條文，所以附帶決議就變成是一個空的附\n帶決議了，就沒有附屬在哪個部分，我們先把這個部分釐清。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:09:23.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:09:23.413000+08:00","text":"請陳培瑜委員。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:09:47.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:09:57.510000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，教育部應該知道第七條之一我非常、非常的堅持，但是剛剛主席已經提醒\n了沒有條文，但後續的附帶決議我們可以討論。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:09:57.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:10:07.500000+08:00","text":"我還是要再次強調，我的堅持其來有自，除了\n認同范雲委員剛剛說的系統性的調查，在我自己的版本裡面，我寫的也是系統性的因素。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:10:08.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:10:26.930000+08:00","text":"因為\n這一次我知道其實一併調整了人力、調整了薪資，也就是說我們期待在現場的資源更充足的情\n況下，我們的想像可能是輔導的量能可以提升，可以讓學生相關的複雜、負面的因素可以降低\n。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:10:27.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:10:40.801000+08:00","text":"但我們還是要面對一個困境，其實在前一個版本的學輔法裡面，一直到現在人員都還沒有到\n位，但現在這個版本的學輔法修完，到底多久可以到位，其實我們並不真的知道。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:10:41.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:10:47.831000+08:00","text":"我相信教育\n部雖然有想像、有規劃、有承諾，但另外一個困境其實是人從哪裡來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:10:49.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:10:54.847000+08:00","text":"光是現場的正式教師、\n代理老師、特教老師、特教助理都已經有困難，更何況輔導老師？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:10:54.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:10:57.709000+08:00","text":"但是因為孩子們的自殘行為\n越來越多，而且樣態越來越複雜，家長的狀況也越來越多，所以我才主張，我們可不可以有系\n統性的死因回溯調查？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:10:57.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:11:21.884000+08:00","text":"我當然知道有非常多的困難，可是我不認為我們臺灣的學術研究團隊或\n者是臺灣的專業團隊沒有辦法支持、支撐起相關的專業研究跟調查，我認為是有能量的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:11:22.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:11:34.008000+08:00","text":"我相\n信范雲委員來自學界，也一定相信臺灣的學術界絕對有這個能量，不然衛福部現在不會推零到\n六歲的相關政策，如果這一次真的不能入法，我必須要再次拜託這部分放在附帶決議，我認為\n我們要認真面對這件事情。","quality":0.856},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:11:34.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:12:00.965000+08:00","text":"悲傷的例子已經很多，我就不再說，但是我想要舉一個近期的案例，其實連我自己都非常震\n撼，我自己小孩的學校最近又出事了，而我們身為家長第一時間收到這個訊息，我們當然得花\n很多力氣跟我們自己的孩子溝通，我個人也以家長的名義去跟學校確保學校的輔諮資源是夠的\n。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:12:01.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:12:29.708000+08:00","text":"但我要談的是，這個孩子他在段考前後出了這個事情，我們並不知道是不是因為考試，我們\n可以猜想這個孩子在決定離開人世之前，他可能還遭遇了別的事情，而那個事情會不會跟整體\n的教學現場環境、原生家庭的環境，甚至當孩子進入學校之後，他還有在社團、在其他的人際\n關係、在網路上，實體的跟網路上都會有這些困境，如果國家不願意用有系統的態度去面對，\n我認為這個問題只會越來越嚴重。","quality":0.994},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:12:32.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:12:58.857000+08:00","text":"這一次我還是可以接受教育部的說法，你們不想入法可以，但是我認為附帶決議的部分，我\n的附帶決議版本是希望在本法修正後通過六個月內，辦理學生自殺、嚴重自我傷害事件分析研\n究，並且研究分析重視質與量，再把這個研究結果提供相關建議，進行校園防治工作推展，提\n出規劃報告送交教育及文化委員會。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:12:59.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:13:09.560000+08:00","text":"也要拜託教育部，在附帶決議上更積極地有所作為，協助\n現場的老師、孩子，還有家長一起去面對，我們孩子們面臨的困境到底是什麼。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:13:09.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:13:10.380000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝主\n席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:13:11.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:13:20.812000+08:00","text":"好，不過我提醒一下，我這邊有看到范雲對這件事情的附帶決議，我沒看到培瑜委員的附帶\n決議，他有 6 個月，你這邊沒有特別提出這個部分。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:13:20.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:13:24.434000+08:00","text":"所以你那個附帶決議是不是……教育部有\n194\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄\n嗎？","quality":0.531},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:13:25.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:13:28.555000+08:00","text":"因為我剛剛看到重新印發的是范雲委員的，陳培瑜委員……","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:13:28.555000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:13:29.555000+08:00","text":"之前就已經給了喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:13:28.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:13:31.396000+08:00","text":"好，是不是也給我們所有的委員？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:13:31.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:13:32.017000+08:00","text":"利用這個時間點，我們是不是請月琴委員發言？","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2024-11-07T14:13:32.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:14:18.902000+08:00","text":"好，不過我跟范雲委員、培瑜委員一樣，我覺得這件事情一定要做，因為死因回溯最\n後在兒少權法，未來我的版本也出去要調修，可是死因回溯有做不代表……因為國外的歷史資\n料裡，他們都會再強調回溯性的研究調查是要做的，所以我覺得教育部應該要正視這個問題，\n因為我們 15 歲的……甚至 10 歲就已經自殺的狀態已經躍升到第三名，15 歲的部分已經躍升到\n第二名，我覺得這是不可避免要去做的。","quality":0.373},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2024-11-07T14:14:20.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:14:35.807000+08:00","text":"至於要每一年，當然在美國的話，他們大概是 4 年會\n去做這樣一個回溯性的調查研究，如果臺灣要更精進，會同意，可是不可能是這法條拿掉之後\n沒有任何的積極作為，我也同意在附帶決議，以上，謝謝。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:14:41.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:14:52.840000+08:00","text":"各位親愛的同事們都很好，可以發表，但是我們的重中之重是在第四條的附帶決議跟第十條\n、第十一條跟第十二條，各位，如果大家已經有溝通了，趕快簡短發言，謝謝。","quality":0.866},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:14:53.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:14:54.941000+08:00","text":"請雅琳委員。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-11-07T14:14:54.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:15:12.957000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，因為其實我原本也是有提版本，就是希望可以針對這個不利處境的地方做\n研究跟探討，基本上我是認同現在先不把它放到法條文字裡面，我的想法是跟范雲委員一樣，\n就是我們用社會學的方法做一個系統性的調查，這部分還是非常需要的，謝謝。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:15:12.957000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:15:13.178000+08:00","text":"好，感謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:15:13.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:15:16.561000+08:00","text":"教育部可不可以幫我們做個綜合回應？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:15:16.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:15:18.863000+08:00","text":"有關於范雲委員還有其他委員所提出來的\n部分。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:15:20.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:15:29.487000+08:00","text":"好，我們對這個議題同樣很關注，也希望找到原因，從源頭去改變環境、改變系統性\n的因素，把比例降低下來。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:15:30.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:15:36.988000+08:00","text":"我們已經有承諾，後面會委託學術團體來做質跟量兼顧的系統性研\n究。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:15:38.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:15:47.051000+08:00","text":"范雲委員及陳培瑜委員跟大家連署的這兩個附帶決議的提案，我們原則上都會配合辦理，\n以上報告。","quality":0.707},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:15:47.051000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:15:50.349000+08:00","text":"好，非常感謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:15:50.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:16:02.920000+08:00","text":"所以我們目前作成的決議就是第七條之一是不入法的，但是根據剛剛委員所\n提出的附帶決議，教育部原則上就會遵照辦理，好不好？感謝。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:16:02.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:16:03.380000+08:00","text":"接下來是第十條，終於又進步了一步，很好！","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:16:08.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:16:11.145000+08:00","text":"第十條的部分是不是先請教育部做一個說明？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:16:12.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:16:19.288000+08:00","text":"我們上次討論完之後，你們也回去做了一些修正，我們大家一起看一下這個大本的第十條，應\n該是第 25 頁開始。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:16:20.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:16:21.549000+08:00","text":"教育部是不是先統一做一個說明？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:16:22.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:16:25.931000+08:00","text":"然後根據教育部的說明，大家再看一下，\n這條也是非常重要的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:16:28.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:16:53.885000+08:00","text":"第十條是有關於高中以下學校的專任輔導老師，先前教育部的版本第十條是不修正的\n，不過後來行政院院會討論，因應目前中小學學生的問題日益複雜，人力確實有所不足，所以\n行政院主動協調教育部以及人總、主總，還是提了第十條的修正案，院版已經在 7 月 4 日通過\n送立法院。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:16:54.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:17:09.190000+08:00","text":"通過的版本主要是，國小原本是 24 班以下設一人，現在只要 20 班就設一人，本來\n是 24 為一個級距，縮短成 20 為一個級距，所以人力會因為這樣就增加。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:17:10.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:17:38.776000+08:00","text":"增加的人數我們有統\n計過，國小會增加 313 個，經費會增加二億五千多萬；國中的部分原本是 15 班以下設一個，現\n在也縮小了，12 班以下就會設一個，所以每 12 班設一個，國中的部分會增加 290 人，也是需要\n195\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄\n增加二億三千多萬。","quality":0.626},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:17:38.776000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:18:01.977000+08:00","text":"第十條調整增加之後，應該會對整個學校現場有很大的幫助，高中的部分\n沒有動。","quality":0.03},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:18:01.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:18:16.029000+08:00","text":"以上報告，懇請委員支持，因為這部分是行政院主動提出來希望增加的，過去我們在\n國小輔導老師的培育上速度比較慢，需要比較慢到位，可是行政院覺得這次修法是很難得的機\n會，希望利用這個機會來做調整。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:18:20.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:18:37.448000+08:00","text":"大家會有一些意見，不過你可以看一下這邊有一個爭議點，就是專任輔導老師去擔任主任或\n組長的工作，目前為止，現場也有非常多擔任行政職的老師的部分，他去做就會少一個輔導人\n力，有沒有辦法解決這樣的問題？","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:18:37.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:18:39.049000+08:00","text":"請教育部等一下也一併做說明。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:18:39.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:18:40.190000+08:00","text":"接下來還有誰有意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:18:40.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:18:42.091000+08:00","text":"范雲委員跟陳培瑜委員。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:18:42.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:18:42.411000+08:00","text":"好，大家來看一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T14:18:50.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:19:13.627000+08:00","text":"我想分兩個部分，第一個是人數的部分，我原本的版本是國小 18班以下，國中 15班，\n教育部現在的版本是國小 20 班，國中 12 班；高中的話，我的部分是 12 班，這邊也比較相近，\n但是這個部分我想已經協商了很久，教育部已經努力了，這部分我就不再堅持。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T14:19:14.147000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:19:47.898000+08:00","text":"另外一個就是剛剛召委講的，兼任行政時應補足應聘員額的部分，這部分其實也是滿多人跟\n我陳情跟反映的，主要的上次我們都有講過了，其實在高中的輔導主管，一定是主任輔導教師\n，而且他會吃掉 12 班一人的這個負擔，可是教育部又提到你們種種的困難，所以我想這個部分\n，我當然還是希望能夠爭取是不是還有空間。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T14:19:47.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:20:03.523000+08:00","text":"我想我們之前能努力的都努力了，如果不行的話\n，也是一樣就是我的附帶決議，我的附帶決議裡面主要是希望教育部要妥善研議，並監督地方\n確實執行，要確認輔諮中心的專輔人員協助，因為我知道你們這邊希望人力能夠從輔諮中心這\n邊來，那如何避免他過度擴張協助工作，也能夠配合學輔法我們通過提升輔諮中心的人力跟待\n遇的部分，增加他的實聘率。","quality":0.415},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T14:20:03.523000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:20:32.521000+08:00","text":"因為我們現在都知道，就是聘用上因為薪水的緣故都沒有聘滿，\n這部分也是等一下要處理的。","quality":0.026},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T14:20:32.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:20:54.616000+08:00","text":"所以我想這部分就是用附帶決議通過這個替代方案，希望還是由\n專輔人員協助教師擔任輔導主管時留下的介入性輔導工作，這是你們教育部提的解方，可是如\n何不會過度擴張他的協助工作，這部分教育部要研擬怎麼監督地方政府確實執行。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T14:20:55.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:20:56.097000+08:00","text":"以上說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:20:57.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:21:03.001000+08:00","text":"好，你是今天才新提一個附帶決議，對不對？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T14:21:03.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:21:03.001000+08:00","text":"對，因為……","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:21:03.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:21:22.254000+08:00","text":"好，范雲委員剛剛提出一個新的……我知道，你就根據這個提今天新的，大家都有看到，范\n雲委員今天所提出來的附帶決議有釘成一本，大家先看一下，教育部你們看了最重要，好不好\n？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:21:22.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:21:25.096000+08:00","text":"如果你們覺得可行的話就…………好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:21:25.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:21:26.217000+08:00","text":"接下來是陳培瑜委員。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:21:26.217000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:21:31.899000+08:00","text":"今天提的有拿到了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:21:31.899000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:21:44.229000+08:00","text":"沒有，我拿到的是范雲委員的第十條，我拿到的是他的，另一個是上次培瑜委員本來有提一\n個。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:21:44.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:21:45.730000+08:00","text":"對，我就是要講一下，謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:21:47.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:21:55.398000+08:00","text":"關於人力培育的部分，其實剛剛司長自己也不小心\n講出來了，就算到了現在，小學的部分都還是有很大的困難。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:21:55.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:22:08.749000+08:00","text":"但是我必須要先說，感謝行政院\n主動提及，要把一直沒有碰到的第十條做修正，在這次教育部提出來的版本降了國小、國中的\n部分，確實可以期待。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:22:09.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:22:23.179000+08:00","text":"196\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄\n但是我的問題也許教育部可以一併回答，當然在師資培育的部分我有附帶決議，如何在滿足\n質跟量的情況下，讓教育現場真的有覺得獲得資源跟支持？","quality":0.649},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:22:23.179000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:22:28.375500+08:00","text":"我也想要請你們說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:22:28.375500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:22:33.572000+08:00","text":"不然如果按\n照這個附帶決議，你們認為遵照辦理，但實務上你們會遇到的困境，跟目前你們跟師藝司或是\n跟相關大學科系的溝通狀況又是什麼？","quality":0.017},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:22:33.572000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:22:38.768500+08:00","text":"我們如何能夠確保那個質跟量？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:22:38.768500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:22:43.965000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:22:43.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:22:55.631000+08:00","text":"這個我就忍不住要發言，我自己在師資培育，輔導人員他們其實有教師證，但如果他要拿到\n輔導的證照，說實在現在連培育的機構可能都出了問題。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:22:55.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:23:12.821000+08:00","text":"以前還有非常多學校，現在各縣市只\n能靠……臺北應該還是國北師，其實很多學生，像高雄有很多人，他在高雄都找不到修輔導學\n分的，可能還是要跑到臺南去上。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:23:13.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:23:18.626000+08:00","text":"你看，所以說這個人力上面，跟你們所想的理想，事實上還\n是有一段的落差。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:23:19.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:23:35.619000+08:00","text":"然後目前為止，像我之前也是提到要把它降到 15 班以下，會比現行的條文大概多增加了一千\n多人，八億多，但也是同樣面臨可能找不到這麼多師資的問題。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:23:35.799000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:23:44.045000+08:00","text":"所以其實很多的委員到目前為\n止都有一點妥協，原因是因為考慮到實質的因素，所以分別透過附帶決議的方法來處理。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:23:44.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:23:53.172000+08:00","text":"剛剛培瑜委員所提出的部分，你有沒有辦法考慮到師資的部分，有沒有辦法加一條是用逐年\n的方式，還是用什麼方法，可以來完成這個部分？","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:23:53.252000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:24:03.180000+08:00","text":"因為我告訴你，這個學生輔導法今年修過之\n後，再修已經又是三、五年後的事情了，所以是不是這一次，不管是在條文法規上或在附帶決\n議上可以一次到位？","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:24:03.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:24:09.024000+08:00","text":"教育部對於這兩位委員所提出來的附帶決議，有沒有其他的說明？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:24:11.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:24:12.487000+08:00","text":"來，部\n長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-11-07T14:24:16.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:24:21.254000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，范雲委員所提的，我想我們遵照辦理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-11-07T14:24:21.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:24:23.776000+08:00","text":"另外陳培瑜委員的部分是不是請吳\n司長補充說明一下？","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:24:29.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:24:42.593000+08:00","text":"原本培育量依照師資培育機構每年固定的量，原本規劃國小是到 120年全部到位，國\n中是 114 年全部到位。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:24:43.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:24:54.439000+08:00","text":"國小的部分，今年年初我們部裡頭有研議，因為要增加學校的輔導人力，\n所以曾經研議討論要提早到 116 年到位，那是現行法喔！","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:24:59.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:25:12.609000+08:00","text":"現在因為這次調整之後，國小、國中都\n分別加碼了，國中可能不是太大的問題，但國小這一塊加碼之後，剛剛提到要增加三百多個，\n本來缺口是 2,088，再加三百多，這一塊是不是請師教司說明一下？","quality":0.701},{"speaker":"武司長曉霞","start":"2024-11-07T14:25:13.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:25:24.773000+08:00","text":"師教司這邊也跟主席和委員報告，非常感謝委員都很關注我們對於專輔老師的需求，\n也提醒量跟質的並進。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"武司長曉霞","start":"2024-11-07T14:25:25.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:25:45.440000+08:00","text":"目前已經增量的部分，除了用公費培育的方式，已經可以加入培育偏遠\n跟特殊地區的專輔老師，我們也要求師資培育大學的相關培育系所要外加師資生的名額，我們\n也持續的在開設在職老師加註專長學分班。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"武司長曉霞","start":"2024-11-07T14:25:46.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:26:07.036000+08:00","text":"雖然這幾個模式都投入，甚至署的部分也一起來努\n力，我們現場大概還有七百多名的現職老師其實已經有取得加註專長證，但是沒有實質去擔任\n，那署這邊也一起來做努力，研擬一些措施吸引他們來擔任，未來這個部分，我們還會持續的\n依需求來協調師培大學開設國小專任輔導的學士後學分班。","quality":0.648},{"speaker":"武司長曉霞","start":"2024-11-07T14:26:07.036000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:26:08.617000+08:00","text":"雖然這幾種多元模式都投入進去，\n但是因為增量的培育大概要三到四年，即 117學年度之後，這個量才會比較穩定、大幅的提升。","quality":0},{"speaker":"武司長曉霞","start":"2024-11-07T14:26:08.617000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:26:55.067000+08:00","text":"所以在這邊要跟培瑜委員說明，就是我們原本的附帶決議裡面有一段文字，116 年提前聘足的\n這一段，也就是教育部原先預定於民國 120 年……到 116 年提前聘足的這一段是不是可以協助我\n們刪除？","quality":0.56},{"speaker":"武司長曉霞","start":"2024-11-07T14:26:55.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:27:01.991000+08:00","text":"我們會穩定的在量跟質的部分用多元培育的方式把它補足。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"武司長曉霞","start":"2024-11-07T14:27:02.331000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:27:02.592000+08:00","text":"以上報告。","quality":1},{"speaker":"武司長曉霞","start":"2024-11-07T14:27:02.592000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:27:06.057000+08:00","text":"197\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:27:06.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:27:16.260000+08:00","text":"所以你是告訴我們 120 年跟 116 年這樣的數字，這個年限不要把它匡在裡面，需要有更多的\n……","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"武司長曉霞","start":"2024-11-07T14:27:17.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:27:34.225000+08:00","text":"附帶決議可……116 年如果要把院版的數字完全達成是會突增，這些人姑且不論聘不\n聘得到，到時候這些人一次退休，其實對教學現場也是不穩定的因素。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:27:34.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:27:37.786000+08:00","text":"其實我告訴你，以我對教學現場的了解，根本非常的困難，為什麼？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:27:37.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:27:44.429000+08:00","text":"因為你現在光是大學裡\n面要來念師資培育班的人數就已經完全不足了。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:27:45.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:27:50.211000+08:00","text":"我自己當過師培的老師，我太清楚，現在太少\n誘因了，你知道嗎？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:27:50.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:27:53.692000+08:00","text":"額外還要再去修這個部分，所以我覺得這是一個非常大的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:27:53.692000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:27:55.692500+08:00","text":"我覺得你\n反而要在源頭如何能讓更多人願意加入這個行列，否則以這樣子的配置，我們即使幫大家爭取\n老半天，真的是來不及可以有這麼多師資培養的部分。","quality":0.246},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:27:55.692500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:27:57.693000+08:00","text":"培瑜老師，你覺得呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:27:57.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:28:20.927000+08:00","text":"我每次都被叫培瑜老師，好，培瑜老師說，我先說，我們這個附帶決議的寫法，如果\n您還記得的話，其實是因為之前第十條沒有修嘛！","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:28:21.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:28:40.300000+08:00","text":"我們只是把教育部一剛開始自己所宣稱的寫\n法放上來，所以你現在要我拿掉，其實就是要先公開承認你們教育部自己的東西是有困難的，\n所以我原則上可以拿掉，沒有問題，因為原本第十條沒有修。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:28:41.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:29:01.830000+08:00","text":"但是如同剛剛您所說的，一個是學士後，還有現在已經加註第二專長的人願不願意投入、真\n的去做專輔工作，再加上你們還有公費生去特偏跟偏遠的部分，我覺得聽起來，我不知道……\n如果現在問你，你不一定會有數字。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:29:01.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:29:21.883000+08:00","text":"但是我們都知道的困境是，公費生逃離現場的比例應該不\n低於三分之一，但如果你現在要在輔導的方面還要加開公費生，還要把他派去偏鄉，然後他又\n要做的是專輔工作，如果沒有額外的配套，很難留住學生。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:29:23.023000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:29:32.065000+08:00","text":"現場的老師遠離了自己的原生家庭\n、故鄉的環境，到了一個生活機能不好、人生地不熟的地方，而且他面臨的是最困難的專輔工\n作。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:29:32.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:29:44.929000+08:00","text":"如果是這樣，附帶決議你要我拿兩條，那我再加一條，就是後續所有的配套措施請一併考\n量，否則就會如同主席說的，我們想像的所有配套其實都不會出現。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:29:44.929000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:29:48.949500+08:00","text":"我所知道的實務困境是公\n費生逃離現場的比例真的很高，我們一起務實來面對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"武司長曉霞","start":"2024-11-07T14:29:48.949500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:29:52.970000+08:00","text":"這幾年開缺，一般地區開缺也多，我們也都有在關注。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:29:52.970000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:29:56.990500+08:00","text":"多，但是跑的也多啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:29:56.990500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:30:01.011000+08:00","text":"那我們可不可以一併來修附帶決議？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:30:01.011000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:30:05.031500+08:00","text":"我等一下跟你們部裡面同\n仁溝通，然後我們再來對這個文字，我可以同意刪掉，但是我可能也會加一些後續的配套要求\n，可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"武司長曉霞","start":"2024-11-07T14:30:05.031500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:30:09.052000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:30:09.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:30:23.079000+08:00","text":"所以我目前手上這個部分，教育部建議刪掉 120 年、116 年，然後把一個月變成三個月，顯\n然培瑜委員還有一些想法，所以這個附帶決議請陳培瑜委員先自己寫。","quality":0.869},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:30:23.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:30:36.677000+08:00","text":"我們利用這個時間先來\n看看第十條的條文，各位，很顯然大家都是用附帶決議的方法來解決，第十條的條文我們是不\n是可以看一下，根據教育部所提出來紅字的部分，我要唸一次是不是？","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:30:37.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:30:37.600000+08:00","text":"各位看清楚啊！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:30:37.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:30:39.084000+08:00","text":"最後的\n機會了，不要再回來了。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:30:41.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:30:51.584000+08:00","text":"第十條，高級中等以下學校專任輔導教師員額編制如下：一、國民小學二十班以下者，置一\n人，二十一班以上者，每二十班增置一人。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:30:52.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:31:06.211000+08:00","text":"二、國民中學十二班以下者，置一人，十三班以上\n者，每十二班增置一人。","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:31:07.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:31:13.356000+08:00","text":"三、高級中等學校十二班以下者，置一人，十三班以上者，每十二班\n198\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄\n增置一人。","quality":0.422},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:31:14.037000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:31:22.043000+08:00","text":"學校屬跨學制者，其專任輔導教師之員額編制，應依各學制規定分別設置。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:31:22.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:31:22.763000+08:00","text":"各位，條文很重要，有沒有意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:31:34.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:31:35.493000+08:00","text":"行政院版的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:31:36.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:31:40.876000+08:00","text":"好，大家沒意見，那我們第十條條文就這樣\n子通過，好不好？謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:31:40.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:31:44.777000+08:00","text":"然後附帶決議就麻煩培瑜委員跟教育部再來做一個說明。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:31:45.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:31:48.379000+08:00","text":"范雲委員第\n十條的附帶決議，教育部看過了嗎？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:31:48.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:31:51.686000+08:00","text":"OK，可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T14:31:51.686000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:31:57.908000+08:00","text":"我補充一下，就是那個一年內怎麼樣讓……","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:31:57.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:32:07.451000+08:00","text":"研擬協助學校針對前開狀況之具體方案，以協助學校介入性輔導工作之推動。對。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-11-07T14:32:08.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:32:08.951000+08:00","text":"遵照辦理。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:32:09.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:32:11.552000+08:00","text":"好，部長說遵照辦理，可以。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:32:12.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:32:30.362000+08:00","text":"接下來我們看第十一條，也非常的重要，各位，我們先翻到第十一條，因為上次我們委員討\n論的非常多，教育部要不要針對你們所做的修正先報告一下？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:32:30.622000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:32:50.936000+08:00","text":"好，第十一條主要是高級中等以下學校及學校主管機關設置專業輔導人員的設置基準\n，原本學校的部分是可以設專業輔導人員的，但必須是達到班級數 55 班以上，就可以至少設一\n個專任的專業輔導人員。","quality":0.819},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:32:50.936000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:32:51.936000+08:00","text":"這一塊在目前實務運作上發現，當輔導員鄰近學校如果有需要協助的\n時候，地方的輔諮中心可能會調派他去支援，他可能會以自己學校的事情很重要為由，不願意\n出去支援，原來的學校可能也不願意他去支援。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:32:51.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:33:21.355000+08:00","text":"雖然現行法令第三項有提到，主管機關可以就\n事實需要來統籌調派，但實務運作上很困難。","quality":0.676},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:33:21.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:33:39.367000+08:00","text":"所以這次的修正就是修改這個重點，把 55 班以上設專輔人員的條文文字刪除掉，將來學校就\n只剩下專任輔導老師，至於專業輔導人員，就統籌設在主管機關的學生輔導諮商中心。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:33:40.047000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:33:58.757000+08:00","text":"不過在\n第三項也有講，就是不一定設在主管機關的內部，他也可以設在學校裡面，或者委由所設學生\n輔諮中心所在學校或擇定之學校聘用之。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:33:59.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:34:10.162000+08:00","text":"所以對於學生人數規模比較大的這些專輔人員，主管\n機關還是可以把他派在學校裡面，就近這個學校跟鄰近學校的服務，這是一個重點。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:34:10.162000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:34:38.054500+08:00","text":"第二個重點就是人要加碼，就是除了原本 20 校設 1 人這個規定維持以外，我們增加兩個規定\n可以來增加人數。","quality":0.163},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:34:38.054500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:35:05.947000+08:00","text":"第一個是根據學生的總人數來看，每 4,000 到 5,000 人，我們會再增加一位專\n輔老師，所以我們就會依校數每 20 校設 1 人，依學生每 4,000 到 5,000 人設 1 人，這樣的部分\n我們就得到一個加總；然後我們依照這個加總的專輔人數再配置 6%可以由中央主管機關來統籌\n，依照各縣市學校的輔導案量、地區區域等特殊情況，會在這 6%去增加配置人力。","quality":0.229},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:35:05.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:35:58.611000+08:00","text":"實務上的人\n數跟各位說明一下，增加 4,500 到 5,000 人這個部分，另外再加 6%，所以實際上會增加的人數\n大概是 136 到 192，如果依照 5,000 人設 1 人，加 6%就是 136，如果依照 4,500 設 1 人，加 6%\n就會變成 192，不管是哪一個，所需要的經費大概都在一億六到一億一左右，增加的人數其實已\n經比現行的基準增加 30%左右，所以已經有增加了，我們希望大家可以支持這個部分。","quality":0.467},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:35:59.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:35:59.593000+08:00","text":"以上報\n告。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:36:01.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:36:04.439000+08:00","text":"我可不可以先問一下，你這個 6%到底是根據什麼來的？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:36:04.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:36:05.939000+08:00","text":"你到底把資訊放在哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:36:06.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:36:08.199000+08:00","text":"你的工作\n地點、你的任務到底是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:36:08.539000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:36:10.640000+08:00","text":"寫一個 6%很含糊耶！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:36:11.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:36:12.020000+08:00","text":"你要把它放哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:36:12.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:36:18.682000+08:00","text":"你放在行政單位也是，把\n199\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄\n它放到不是我真的很專注的地方也是啊！","quality":0.619},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:36:18.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:36:20.002000+08:00","text":"他的任務又是做什麼？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:36:20.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:36:23.663000+08:00","text":"這是第一個等一下我需要被回\n應的。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:36:23.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:36:26.523000+08:00","text":"還有一個就是 4,000到 5,000 的 range很大，你的基準點是從哪裡來？","quality":0.704},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:36:26.523000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:36:30.902667+08:00","text":"這差很多，差 1,000耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:36:30.902667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:36:35.282333+08:00","text":"你難道就不能匡定 4,000 或多少嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:36:35.282333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:36:39.662000+08:00","text":"這麼大的 range，最主要是你的基數到底從哪裡來？","quality":0.043},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:36:39.662000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:36:44.041667+08:00","text":"我覺得\n這部分還是需要有個固定數會不會比較好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:36:44.041667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:36:48.421333+08:00","text":"不然你的 range 那麼大。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:36:48.421333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:36:52.801000+08:00","text":"還有沒有其他委員有意見，\n可以最後再請司長一併來做回應，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:36:52.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:37:13.121000+08:00","text":"還有 15 校的部分，對不起，我特別要講一下，你剛剛算了老半天，我剛剛也算了老半天，我\n當初寫 15 校，那是因為像我們高雄幅員這麼大，交通這麼不方便，而且我剛剛算過了，現在是\n20 校，如果是 15 校的話，真的比原本的 20 校只多出 58 個人而已，司長，好不好？","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:37:13.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:37:16.845000+08:00","text":"是不是可以\n考量到一些幅員比較廣大的地方？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:37:17.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:37:27.900000+08:00","text":"你從 20 校改為 15 校，其實就是 258，比院版只多了 58 人，\n你這樣都不能……這個是 CP 值最高的，你真的必須要思考一下啦！","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:37:29.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:37:32.707000+08:00","text":"我們先請郭昱晴委員。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"郭委員昱晴","start":"2024-11-07T14:37:37.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:37:37.533000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"郭委員昱晴","start":"2024-11-07T14:37:37.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:37:57.086000+08:00","text":"我剛剛其實也是看到 6%這個部分，因為上次其實我有特別提過，就是偏\n鄉的部分，如果這個額外 6%的考量，不管是他輔導的案量還是地理的區域，整體的配套是不是\n應該要有一個比較具體明確的規範？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"郭委員昱晴","start":"2024-11-07T14:37:57.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:38:10.404000+08:00","text":"因為你如果沒有一個具體的規範，其實真的光是一些不公\n平案量的分配，對偏鄉來講其實還是會非常辛苦，所以這部分能否給我一個比較具體的說明？謝謝。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:38:10.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:38:10.805000+08:00","text":"好，沒問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:38:11.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:38:12.851000+08:00","text":"還有沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:38:16.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:38:20.140000+08:00","text":"我剛剛忘了，我們的部長，你以前是從局長出來的，對不對？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:38:20.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:38:27.521000+08:00","text":"我們高雄的教育局長，你應該\n呼應一下我的說法，我們高雄幅員這麼大，而更改基數才差 58 人！","quality":0.73},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:38:28.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:38:41.664000+08:00","text":"部長你是不是也可以根據你\n過去的親身經驗來發表一下，真的是幅員那麼大，光是舟車勞頓，別人可以跑 5 個學校，他光\n是跑 2 個學校就已經一整天過去，我覺得這個還是有區域的差別啦！","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:38:42.624000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:38:45.705000+08:00","text":"我先特別指名我們的「鄭\n局長」來回應。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-11-07T14:38:55.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:39:13.671000+08:00","text":"我想各縣市的地理環境確實是有差異，花蓮、臺東可能要更狹長，屏東，包括臺中是\n原來的縣市合併，大概也都有同樣的困境。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-11-07T14:39:14.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:39:36.007000+08:00","text":"所以我們事實上整個從經費……我利用這個機會感\n謝我們主席還有所有的委員，我們從師資的多元培育，同時希望考慮他的服務品質，所以有很\n多的政策，我想部裡跟委員的方向與理想性都是一樣的。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-11-07T14:39:36.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:39:47.456000+08:00","text":"可是相對的，我們如何有一個階段性\n，逐步的去達到我們所設定的理想目標，我想那個方向我們不會打折扣。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-11-07T14:39:49.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:40:37.016000+08:00","text":"一個是來自於師資的\n培育，一個是來自於經費的投入，再考慮到區域上的一些差異性，所以我們才會從院版裡再衍\n伸出來，我們大概估計了我們現場在師資、區域跟所有人力上的一些需求，某種程度我們也看\n到，主席剛才提到我們中央主管機關介於 4,500 到 5,000 的基數，這邊我們確實是期待有一個\nrange，其實我也問過我們吳司長，為什麼我們不直接就 4,500 就好？","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-11-07T14:40:38.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:40:50.106000+08:00","text":"他說：部長，我們還是用一\n個 range，不然 4,499差一個人怎麼辦？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-11-07T14:40:50.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:40:54.650000+08:00","text":"所以當時我就沒有特別去堅持。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-11-07T14:40:55.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:41:40.252000+08:00","text":"我覺得部裡的立場，我們就是一個態度，就是希望人數增加，但也跟委員們報告，這些所有\n的人力我們希望他是留在各地方縣市政府的學生輔導諮商中心，能夠配合各縣市因應地方而能\n200\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄\n夠有一些調配，譬如說有一些偏鄉的、有一些規模比較大，就可以直接由地方去統籌，來做一\n些適度的調配跟支援，我想以上大概做這樣的補充。","quality":0.409},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-11-07T14:41:40.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:42:12.209000+08:00","text":"所有的想法，誠如委員所提，確實有差異，而這些差異我們如果訂一個單一辦法的時候，有\n時很難全面關照，所以才課以地方更大的責任，去協助、統籌專業輔導人力，協助各縣市、各\n個區域上不同的專業人力的服務。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:42:12.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:42:12.530000+08:00","text":"所以啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:42:12.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:42:13.550000+08:00","text":"我說你的基數要是穩定設在 4,500 以下，這也是一個彈性啊！","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:42:13.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:42:13.670000+08:00","text":"為什麼要 4,500 到\n5,000呢？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:42:13.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:42:14.651000+08:00","text":"4,500 以下也是一個非常穩定的基數啊！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:42:14.651000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:42:27.802000+08:00","text":"對不對？是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:42:27.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:42:33.006000+08:00","text":"我剛剛只是說 4,500 到 5,000 的範圍太大，你說一定要保持一個彈性，我覺得你的彈性放在\n4,500以下，把 4,500當作是一個點啊！","quality":0.761},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-11-07T14:42:33.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:42:33.547000+08:00","text":"或者說我們用 4,500 為原則，這個當然都可以討論。對啊！","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:42:33.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:42:35.489000+08:00","text":"類似的，而且我說實在，我還是要提醒一下，剛剛我們所講的都不包含偏鄉條例額外\n設置的 212 位專輔人員，是不是？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:42:35.849000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:42:57.144000+08:00","text":"司長，還有次長，我剛剛所講的，我要百分之百確定，都完\n全是不包含偏鄉條例裡面給我們的，這要百分之百確定就好。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:42:57.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:43:01.845000+08:00","text":"我們先請雅琳委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-11-07T14:43:01.925000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:43:11.968000+08:00","text":"部長跟司長，請教一下，因為這個 4,500 到 5,000 是一個非常大的數字，到底各縣市\n政府他們如何決定要用哪一個數字去計算呢？","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:43:20.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:43:42.708000+08:00","text":"因為那個實際的人數跟校數及基數，我想要請司長幫我確定一下我現在的算法是不是\n對的，如果我們用校數 15 校、基數 4,500 跟 6%的彈性，我認為有機會，我們其實是有機會的，\n當然還要跟行政院討論，因為這個部分是由中央支付，對吧？是嘛？部分。部分？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:43:42.708000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:43:45.391000+08:00","text":"地方要自籌部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:43:45.391000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:43:48.074000+08:00","text":"地方自籌，但是比例是比較低嘛，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:43:48.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:43:52.018000+08:00","text":"中央出的比較多，所以我們還是要請行政\n院考慮一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:43:52.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:44:01.826000+08:00","text":"如果我們降低校數到 15 個學校，大概就會是 258 個人，比你們教育部現在的版本\n增加了 58個人，我的算法到目前為止是對的嗎？對嘛？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:44:01.826000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:44:33.783000+08:00","text":"再來，基數穩定的這個困境，我想要先幫偏鄉喊話，其實在教育部統計的偏鄉，花蓮\n、屏東、彰化、南投、臺東、嘉義、苗栗、宜蘭、新北、臺中、高雄都有偏鄉，我當然知道經\n費需要商量、需要討論、需要計算，但是我想要講一個實務上的困境是這樣，以我們熟悉的花\n蓮為例，從花蓮市區出發，假設開到吉安鄉都算近的，再往南一點到壽豐鄉，大概還可以接受\n，再往南，壽豐往南到鳳林，你就差不多快要抓狂，一個個案！","quality":0.025},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:44:33.783000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:45:05.740000+08:00","text":"然後你再回來，再往上也好、\n再往下也好，這樣來回大概是兩、三個小時，如果這個專輔他所做的事情是一天在不同的鄉之\n間接兩個個案，他可能交通時間就是 4 到 6 個小時，這還是在他有開車的情況下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:45:05.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:45:20.212000+08:00","text":"當然，大家\n201\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄\n都會說，在偏鄉怎麼會不開車，但有時候你就不知道他為什麼就是沒有開車，可能是他剛好那\n天身體不舒服沒有開車，或是他剛好車壞掉了，種種的原因，他就是沒有開車，那我們還是可\n以期待有所謂的客運，記得喔！","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:45:20.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:45:25.176000+08:00","text":"到偏鄉叫做客運，不叫公車，這個情況下就是一個小時一班。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:45:25.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:45:45.009000+08:00","text":"所以部長您來自高雄，高雄的偏鄉也很多，我剛剛只是用我最熟悉的花蓮來舉例，當然我知道\n這是行政院很大的財務上的支出，當然地方也要有所承擔，可是在這個部分，我們還是很希望\n，不只是幫偏鄉的老師爭取，其實也是在幫偏鄉的孩子跟家長爭取。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:45:45.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:46:00.502000+08:00","text":"因為偏鄉這幾年的困境其\n實相對複雜，尤其是非常多數位時代的小孩，他們其實是被 3C 養大的，那他們所遇到的困境，\n我不會說全部都是家長的責任。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:46:01.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:46:15.906000+08:00","text":"我之前在質詢的時候也跟部長討論過家庭教育的問題，所以有\n機會的話，我想我還是希望可以在 15 班的情況下，或是基數固定在 4,500 人……15 校，sorry！","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:46:16.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:46:25.514000+08:00","text":"15 校的部分，然後 4,500 人，然後額外的 6%，當然還是要感謝你們原本所保留的偏鄉條例額外\n有 212 人這個部分。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:46:25.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:46:32.202000+08:00","text":"所以這樣聽起來，我們的行政院版本應該會更完整的照顧到每一個鄉鎮市\n的需求，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:46:33.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:46:36.166000+08:00","text":"好，部長剛剛舉手說他要先回應一下。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-11-07T14:46:37.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:46:38.047000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的關心。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-11-07T14:46:38.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:47:15.090000+08:00","text":"其實這也就是我們剛才在提怎麼樣讓地方政府有因地制宜，因為就\n我們現在所知道，地方裡面的學生諮輔中心不會就只有一個，各個縣市會針對它的地形環境，\n它可能會有的，比如說都會的就是北、中、南，或者東、西、南、北各設一個，有一些狹長的\n地區，它也可能會因地制宜，不會說讓一個人從北跑到南，這就是我們所期待的，等於說地方\n不能完全逃避責任。","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-11-07T14:47:15.090000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:47:39.393600+08:00","text":"我們希望學生的發展、學生的心理支持，是透過中央的政策、中央的資源\n結合地方的努力，我們能夠讓新世代這些年輕人、這些學生有一個更好的照顧。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-11-07T14:47:39.393600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:48:03.697200+08:00","text":"那我們看到目\n前地方的這樣一個 model，其實我還滿佩服的，我也利用這個機會跟委員報告，在二十幾年前，\n這個諮商輔導中心真的就是在我借調當高雄市教育局長時我就任務編組成立了，那時候確實是\n只有一個，可是當我們看到縣市在合併的過程裡面，我們大都會越來越多，然後數量多，然後\n原來這些比較鄉村型的縣市，剛才特別提到花蓮、臺東、屏東、苗栗、南投等等，現在各縣市\n已經不會只設一個，它有一個組，但是它有一個分辦在不同的地區，我覺得這就是我們所期待\n的，它能夠就近去關照不同教育階段的一些學校，這是我們跟委員分享我們目前看到地方政府\n其實他們在這個部分也在想怎麼樣讓這個服務的品質更到位。","quality":0.284},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:48:03.697200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:48:28.000800+08:00","text":"謝謝部長回應。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:48:28.000800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:48:52.304400+08:00","text":"來，范雲委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T14:48:52.304400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:49:16.608000+08:00","text":"因為我原來的版本就是希望高中以下學校達 40 班以上至少就要專任輔導人員一名，並\n得視實際需要置兼任輔導人員若干人，再來的話，主管機關這個專業輔導人員就是 15 校，因為\n教育部的部分就是刪除了，就並沒有那個 40 班，其實這就是一個大校條款，大校一定要有駐校\n的專輔人員，然後 15 校那個部分，教育部的版本現在是 20 校，雖然你們又新增學生人數基數\n，所以我想大家的擔心剛剛都已經討論了，中間也跟教育部討論了很久。","quality":0.116},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T14:49:16.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:49:59.574000+08:00","text":"我當然還是希望如果\n我的條文能夠通過，教育部改變想法，這樣當然很好，因為滿多不管是學校的專輔人員，還有\n專業團體，都會強調大校駐校專輔人員非常的重要，因為他的功能，然後他才能更深入了解學\n202\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄\n校的體系，也更能夠深度的服務學生個案，也比較能夠促進校內輔導資源的整合，研究也指出\n這是有成效的，所以我想我還是不希望刪除這個部分。","quality":0.541},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T14:50:00.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:50:18.384000+08:00","text":"但是我想因為今天我們能夠協商的時間\n也不多，我現在先提的話，如果教育部一定要堅持原來條文的話，那我至少希望在你們的說明\n欄文字，因為這等於是讓地方教育局處的輔導中心去協調嘛！","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T14:50:18.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:50:31.772000+08:00","text":"可是你要有很明確的文字，就是\n必須要讓大校駐校輔導專輔人員一定要優先能夠有，我這邊準備的文字唸給大家聽，我是希望\n能夠在第三項立法說明至少要增訂主管機關統籌調派專業輔導人員時，宜優先派駐至大型學校\n。","quality":0.63},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T14:50:47.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:50:52.266000+08:00","text":"因為我想大型學校要有專輔人員，我還是希望維持這個立場，但你們說因為各縣市情況不一\n樣，你希望能夠讓它有這個彈性在。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T14:50:52.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:51:19.366000+08:00","text":"對於地方局處，我不知道大家的信任度如何，因為我們有\n時候監督也會遇到地方局處不太理會中央，但至少在條文說明裡面的話，地方縣市議員或是我\n們立委未來在監督的時候，它就不能夠忽略這個原則，這是我的一個堅持，以上。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2024-11-07T14:51:19.366000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:51:26.436000+08:00","text":"還要回答那個 4,500 跟 5,000的部分。","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:51:26.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:51:40.269000+08:00","text":"剛剛部長有提到，您在高雄市教育局當局長的時候做了一個很重要的事情，我要先謝\n謝你，你說你在整個大高雄有設立分別的據點，就是學輔諮中心這個部分。","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-11-07T14:51:40.269000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:51:41.329000+08:00","text":"只有設一個。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:51:41.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:51:42.711000+08:00","text":"好，一個。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:51:42.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:51:47.054000+08:00","text":"部長，我跟你報告，如果我沒有記錯，全臺灣好像只有兩個這種地方有額\n外設點，其他我剛剛講的這些都沒有，所以我們還是要想辦法來面對偏鄉的問題。","quality":0.371},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:52:07.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:52:41.421000+08:00","text":"當然我知道\n要減這個班級數是有困難，但還是有什麼附帶決議的方法或是說明文字可以讓我們知道也許我\n們有機會逐年去調整，但是您剛剛說的那個作法，如果以您現在身為部長，也許你們可以透過\n你們身為這些縣市政府的主管機關的角色，請他們必須要更積極地去想像自己所在的縣市，他\n們如何參考您過往在高雄的作法，去廣設這些所謂分站也好、分點也好，然後不要讓工作人員\n過度的移動，讓需要被服務的學生可以用最快的方法進用這些資源，可不可以請司長想像一下\n，幫部長想一下在務實上的部分可以怎麼做，謝謝。","quality":0.689},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:52:41.421000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:52:53.284000+08:00","text":"還有剛剛雅琳委員的說法，還有你的基點 4,500 到 5,000 這個部分，我剛剛已經說 range 非\n常大，有沒有可能變 4,500 以下，或者是其他的因素？","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:52:53.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:52:54.064000+08:00","text":"接下來還有郭昱晴委員。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"郭委員昱晴","start":"2024-11-07T14:52:55.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:53:15.111000+08:00","text":"我補充一下，就是這些在協助偏鄉的輔導人員，其實他們基本上都是自己在開車，那\n我想這個部分對他們來講，都是自行在負擔交通的部分，對他們來講也是非常辛苦，我覺得這\n個部分也是回應剛剛培瑜委員所說的這些，以上。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:53:20.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:53:45.957000+08:00","text":"首先說明，第十一條所謂的每 20 校設一個，以及 4,500 到 5,000 學生設一個，以及\n再加 6%，這個統籌的設算基準以及核定給各地方政府的部分，我剛剛講了，因為中央可能負擔\n其中最大一塊經費，少部分由地方自籌，其實那個核定的權力是由中央主管機關來核定的，所\n以到底是 5,000 還是 4,900、還是 4,800，應該是中央主管機關來做決定。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:53:50.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:54:17.781000+08:00","text":"我說明一下當初為什麼\n會訂 4,500 到 5,000，就是剛剛講的，因為它確實考慮到這幾年的少子化的變動因素還是不穩定\n203\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄\n的狀態，所以訂一個 range 是希望核定之後，各地的人力是可以穩定的，不會因為學生人數上去\n或下來，就會有要增加人或者要減少人的問題，所以 4,500 跟 5,000 是當時經過仔細推算覺得可\n以處理的方式。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:54:18.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:54:48.251000+08:00","text":"第三個要說明的是，確實是我們現在把 55 班以上駐校的統統收回到地方來了，當然如同剛才\n部長所說的，其實地方實務運作上也會考慮到，因為人數多了之後，其實是要做責任區域劃分\n的，滿多縣市可能只有一個中心，但它會分北區、南區，會有不同的辦公地點，那個地方就是\n要就近服務，我想將來這個情況，地方的主管機關在統籌分配一定會考慮這個問題。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:54:48.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:54:58.733000+08:00","text":"如同剛才\n范委員所提到的，還有柯委員之前也提到過一個附帶決議，就是對於學生人數比較多的大型學\n校，將來要派駐的時候，是不是請主管機關優先派駐……","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:55:01.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:55:05.679000+08:00","text":"對、對、對，柯委員是用附帶決議，范委員是說用立法說明，我覺得我們都可以接受\n。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:55:10.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:55:13.046000+08:00","text":"精神上都是宜優先派駐人員。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:55:13.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:55:18.732000+08:00","text":"最後談一個問題是剛才郭昱晴委員很關心的 6%到底怎\n麼做分配？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:55:19.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:55:46.368000+08:00","text":"先說立法說明裡頭其實有講，我們在立法說明有提到，如果學校所處學區社經條件\n或鄰近安置機構等特殊情況，這種情況負擔就會比較重；另外也提到有部分縣市因為地理幅員\n狹長，或者離島等因素人口分散，這種情況因為很多時間花在交通上面，所以這種情況確實要\n加配駐人力的。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:55:46.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:55:51.149000+08:00","text":"郭委員之前的附帶決議其實有講，他提到請教育部會同各地方政府研訂，依區\n域學校學生樣態及輔導需求配置，並分派專業輔導人的機制。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:55:51.149000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:55:57.822500+08:00","text":"就是郭委員有附帶決議，我們其\n實是支持，我們覺得我們應該是可以遵照辦理的，以上報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:55:57.822500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:56:04.496000+08:00","text":"你還是沒有回答我的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:56:04.496000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:56:11.169500+08:00","text":"哪一個？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:56:11.169500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:56:17.843000+08:00","text":"我剛剛說按照部長過往經驗的建議……對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:56:17.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:56:27.593000+08:00","text":"部長剛剛的建議很重要，如果我沒有記錯的話，現在好像只有高雄跟雲林有設所謂不\n同工作站的概念，還有哪些？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:56:30.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:56:33.732000+08:00","text":"一定不止，我們桃園也有分南桃園、北桃園。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:56:33.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:56:38.735000+08:00","text":"那這樣，假設你們不願意改 20 到 15，我們可不可以再多增加一個附帶決議？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:56:38.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:56:43.217000+08:00","text":"因為就\n像剛剛主席也講，學輔法要再修已經不知道是什麼時候，我們增加一個附帶決議好不好？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:56:43.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:56:55.884000+08:00","text":"我們\n討論一下，就是現在我們都不確定到底誰有誰沒有的情況下，或者是盤點各縣市的需求，當然\n主管機關有角色去監督地方政府，但地方政府擺爛不做就是不做嘛！","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:56:58.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:57:07.139000+08:00","text":"我們可不可以有個附帶決\n議要求你們協助地方政府積極的確保每一個地方應該要有依實際需求設分點、據點的概念？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:57:10.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:57:10.703000+08:00","text":"強度可以怎麼增加？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:57:12.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:57:13.167000+08:00","text":"如果 20校沒有辦法調 15 校的話。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T14:57:15.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:57:26.737000+08:00","text":"我說明一下，第一個部分，當然我也跟同仁在了解目前 22 個縣市政府的輔諮中心到\n204\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄\n底大概有多少個，不過以我以前服務過的新北市，新北市設了 4個區，臺北市……","quality":0.679},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T14:57:26.737000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:57:29.581000+08:00","text":"我們現在講的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T14:57:29.581000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:57:32.425000+08:00","text":"對，我知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T14:57:32.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:57:36.107000+08:00","text":"現在的問題是在於我們現行的規定，就是還沒修法之前的規定，現行法\n規定 40 校以下是設在學校裡面，主管機關的部分是 20 校以上設 1 人，所以 20 個學校以上才設\n1人，基本上設在主管機關的人數本來就是不多，所以不太可能去設據點。對。","quality":0.473},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T14:58:03.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:58:31.022000+08:00","text":"但是我們現在新法改了以後，就是 20校以下 1人，然後再每 20個學校再增加 1人，\n再加上剛剛講的 4,500 到 5,000 還會增加人，還有 6%會增加人，所以總 total 的部分就會在各主\n管機關裡面去做人數調整，所以第一個，人數會增加，相對於以前來講會有更多的人數，它可\n以去做分區的配置，這是第一個，因為法規已經改了，人數增加了。","quality":0.715},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T14:58:31.022000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:58:40.191000+08:00","text":"第二個部分就是因為大部\n分經費都是中央補助，所以這個部分基本上是可以用附帶決議的方式，由教育部來要求各縣市\n政府，人數也已經增加了，應該考慮到就近照顧這樣的原則去做配置。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T14:58:40.191000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:58:49.360000+08:00","text":"所以我們建議，這個實\n務上是可以執行，建議可以用附帶決議的方式，由教育部督導各縣市政府分區來設置。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T14:58:49.360000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T14:58:58.529000+08:00","text":"以上說\n明，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:58:58.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:59:05.881000+08:00","text":"好，那就教育部研擬，不過我還是認為 15 校只差那 58 個就不行嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:59:05.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:59:08.242000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:59:08.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:59:23.149000+08:00","text":"次長，20 校\n到 15 校就差那 58 個，你看這麼多委員都提出來，包括很多偏遠地區，你就可以不用為了這件\n事情讓他們每天在這邊奔波，只增加 58 個就可以解決這麼多的問題，58 人，我還是強調，不要\n說 20 到 15，我算過了，就是只有 58 人！","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:59:23.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:59:23.969000+08:00","text":"這有沒有解方？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:59:31.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:59:46.587000+08:00","text":"我們可以同意剛剛你們說的這個部分\n用附帶決議的方式，我覺得好，可是我還是覺得 20 到 15 就差那 58，又不是差到 580，是 58 人\n，所有的委員都贊成這樣的部分，這個部分有沒有修改的空間？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T14:59:46.587000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:59:49.050000+08:00","text":"有的話我現在來唸條文，趕快\n，第十一條就可以唸過了。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:59:51.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:59:52.318000+08:00","text":"我先說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T14:59:53.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T14:59:58.462000+08:00","text":"行政院當初看第十條與第十一條的時候是整體考量的……","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:00:00.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:00:01.724000+08:00","text":"為什麼會放在第十條加碼？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:00:01.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:00:06.387000+08:00","text":"很受考慮的原因就是輔導老師住在學校裡面就可以就近服\n務學生。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:00:07.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:00:15.031000+08:00","text":"在這種情況之下，針對第十一條，他們相對來講當然就會比較支持教育部原本的版本\n，如果這個地方再加，就會變成雙重條文都加了。","quality":0.796},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:00:16.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:00:22.374000+08:00","text":"大家應該有印象，之前行政院版條文為什麼\n在行政院院會排了幾次都沒排進去？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:00:22.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:00:29.037000+08:00","text":"很大的原因之一就在於第十條、第十一條要斟酌可能需要\n的人力配置跟經費，行政院內部要溝通。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:00:29.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:00:33.039000+08:00","text":"我相信對於這個方案，人總、主總在態度上都是支持\n的啦！","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:00:33.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:00:35.780000+08:00","text":"但如果要再做調整，恐怕就要重新再溝通啦！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:00:35.780000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:00:46.986429+08:00","text":"是錢的問題……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T15:00:46.986429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:00:58.192857+08:00","text":"我也補充說明一下啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T15:00:58.192857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:01:09.399286+08:00","text":"因為現行規定只針對 20 班以下配置相關人數，而新法修正以\n後，包含 3 種配置方式，這些配置方式都是由各地方主管機關配置，除了第一個是每 20 班的學\n校設置 1 人，然後再累計增加之外，還有 4,500 到 5,000 之基數，這也是新修正條文之後額外增\n加的人數。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T15:01:09.399286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:01:20.605714+08:00","text":"那 6%也是另外增加的人數，也就是說讓各地方主管機關可以針對整體人數增加，而\n不是直接配置在學校啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T15:01:20.605714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:01:31.812143+08:00","text":"如果比對現行條文，就是把原來的 20 個改成 15 個，那個是單純，但\n205\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄\n現在策略上已經是採用 3 個策略方式增加人數來處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T15:01:31.812143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:01:43.018571+08:00","text":"我這樣回應柯委員的問題，是不是可以\n贊成以院版方案處理？","quality":0.12},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T15:01:43.018571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:01:54.225000+08:00","text":"以上說明，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:01:54.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:02:00.751000+08:00","text":"我剛剛是說我比較希望確保大校要有專輔人員那一點必須納入你們的說明文字，主席剛\n剛也表示支持嘛！","quality":0.705},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:02:00.751000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:02:01.931000+08:00","text":"對，我也同意，我支持，入法比什麼都重要啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:02:01.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:02:05.895000+08:00","text":"那協調會不會好，當然就看結果了啦！","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:02:06.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:02:10.538000+08:00","text":"我也支持以一個附帶決議把剛剛講的分區中心納\n入。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:02:10.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:02:11.079000+08:00","text":"所以大家都可以接受嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:02:17.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:02:17.656000+08:00","text":"你們都可以接受？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:02:23.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:02:24.145000+08:00","text":"這樣好了，我先問一下部長。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:02:30.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:02:40.412000+08:00","text":"謝謝次長的說明，就是把第十條跟第十一條加起來看，\n但是我還是要表達我們是基於現場所知道的，所以提出這個困境。","quality":0.735},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:02:40.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:02:55.177000+08:00","text":"如果行政院真的有困難，關\n於附帶決議的功能，我們還是希望教育部承擔起協助地方政府，在增加這麼多人力之後，教育\n部必須把大家各自的困境盤點起來、整理需求。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:02:55.617000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:02:57.078000+08:00","text":"但不知道主席能不能接受？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:02:58.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:03:07.677000+08:00","text":"我覺得我們卡這麼久，就是希望在這邊有所突破，可是這個突破點顯然不如我們大家所預期\n的啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:03:09.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:03:11.619000+08:00","text":"大家都還是希望……大家真的期待很高啦！","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:03:12.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:03:18.861000+08:00","text":"在這次修法時，面對這麼多學生輔導人力的\n問題，我們當然希望真的有更大的突破。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:03:19.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:03:23.663000+08:00","text":"我肯定教育部非常努力在溝通協調，但問題到底是出\n在哪裡？","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:03:23.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:03:24.323000+08:00","text":"在誰身上？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:03:30.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:03:31.293000+08:00","text":"人總嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:03:34.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:03:35.016000+08:00","text":"問題到底出在誰身上？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:03:35.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:03:37.598000+08:00","text":"因為你們顯然都很贊成我們所有的說法啊\n！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:03:38.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:03:41.060000+08:00","text":"問題就是到底……等一下！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:03:41.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:03:44.363000+08:00","text":"教育部是不是先把剛剛范雲委員所說要入法那個條文處理一下？","quality":0.63},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:03:44.363000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:03:47.566000+08:00","text":"我們在立法說明八……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:03:47.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:03:49.487000+08:00","text":"不是，你們要先弄，因為等一下要宣讀啊！","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:03:49.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:03:51.489000+08:00","text":"既然要入法，那就要先在條文上處理。","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:03:52.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:03:54.451000+08:00","text":"要寫在哪\n裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:03:54.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:03:55.952000+08:00","text":"就在立法說明是不是？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:03:56.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:03:59.095000+08:00","text":"那到時候也要給我們看一下，好不好？是。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:03:59.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:04:03.697000+08:00","text":"要白紙黑字，否則這年頭什麼都不信。真的！","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:04:04.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:04:13.346000+08:00","text":"連白紙黑字都可能翻盤，雖然你說了，但回去\n之後會不會……我們現在說定了就不會再做任何變動，是這樣嗎？","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-11-07T15:04:18.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:04:31.038000+08:00","text":"如果能夠照這樣，也就是我們剛才說明的院版，事實上也都是討論過的，如同剛才吳\n司長提到的，人總與各財主單位也樂意支持。","quality":0.731},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-11-07T15:04:33.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:04:51.989000+08:00","text":"誠如我剛才跟主席還有委員報告的，我們有遠大\n的理想在那裡，不會打折扣，但是在整個師資培育、整個經費、整個效益、服務品質上，怎樣\n透過中央跟地方合作逐步達成……","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:04:53.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:04:57.593000+08:00","text":"附帶決議先寫一下，我們再看看有沒有辦法做這樣的處理，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:04:58.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:04:58.354000+08:00","text":"你們這樣就 OK 啦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:04:58.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:04:58.794000+08:00","text":"你\n們這樣就 OK 了喔？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:05:17.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:05:21.641000+08:00","text":"我回應一下主席，主席是不是突然覺得有點孤單、有點寂寞？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:05:22.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:05:26.244000+08:00","text":"我是覺得大家應該再好好繼續、多作一些爭取的。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:05:26.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:05:36.609000+08:00","text":"那這樣好不好，主席，我剛剛有聽懂次長的誠意，就是第十條跟第十一條其實已經共\n同調整，還是這邊先放著、等一下回來繼續聊，先回到第四條？","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:05:36.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:05:38.531000+08:00","text":"如果把錢的問題拉進來一起看\n會不會更完整？","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:05:38.531000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:05:42.026143+08:00","text":"請次長先說明第四條裡關於錢的問題，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:05:42.026143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:05:45.521286+08:00","text":"主席，我沒有要喊保留，我想\n要今天完成協商，拜託！","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:05:45.521286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:05:49.016429+08:00","text":"所以……\n206\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:05:49.016429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:05:52.511571+08:00","text":"我知道，第四條有非常多部份是我們需要處理的，特別是第四條附帶決議針對薪點、薪資這\n個部分的確是啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:05:52.511571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:05:56.006714+08:00","text":"是，我們先回來談一下薪點、薪資好不好，主席？","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:05:56.006714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:05:59.501857+08:00","text":"可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:05:59.501857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:06:02.997000+08:00","text":"可以先跟主席做這個請求\n嗎？","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:06:02.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:06:03.658000+08:00","text":"先談第四條。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:06:03.658000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:06:04.658000+08:00","text":"你覺得這樣會比較單純一點嗎？","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:06:03.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:06:04.319000+08:00","text":"你真的覺得這樣會比較單純一點嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:06:04.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:06:04.859000+08:00","text":"我們大家都不覺得啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:06:04.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:06:05+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:06:14.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:06:21.013000+08:00","text":"而且，就我們現在的理解，針對你剛剛說的學諮中心有幾個點，應該只有高雄跟新北\n有，其他地方沒有啦！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:06:21.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:06:24.154000+08:00","text":"是高雄、新北還有桃園。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:06:24.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:06:27.095000+08:00","text":"22 個縣市中有 13個縣市都有分區中心設置。對。","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:06:27.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:06:29.976000+08:00","text":"最主要是少子化變成一個趨勢了嘛！","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:06:30.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:06:33.097000+08:00","text":"所以把校數降低是因為人少啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:06:33.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:06:36.259000+08:00","text":"不會輕易改變校數，而\n是改變班數啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:06:36.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:06:36.839000+08:00","text":"不是嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:06:37.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:06:44.201000+08:00","text":"所以我才認為 15 校標準特別重要，因為它可以讓各縣市統籌人員再多\n增加一些啊！","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:06:44.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:06:46.962000+08:00","text":"我們一直都在幫他們講話、幫他們考慮很多啊！","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:06:47.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:06:50.943000+08:00","text":"我希望大家能夠考慮最主要是源\n於這個因素嘛！","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:06:52.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:06:54.164000+08:00","text":"學特司都有算過嘛！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:06:54.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:07:00.526000+08:00","text":"例如 6%、4,500、5,000 這些基準，那就告訴大家，譬如說各縣市\n增加多少，這樣大家聽起來才會覺得有往前進啊！","quality":0.39},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:07:00.526000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:07:05.982400+08:00","text":"否則以我們原本提的版本來自這麼多委員、\n不分黨派，是更好的嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:07:05.982400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:07:11.438800+08:00","text":"而你一直強調整體、彈性，那你要跟大家講是更好的啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:07:11.438800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:07:16.895200+08:00","text":"否則沒有辦\n法跟廣大的……你也知道，就是沒辦法跟支持及關心的人交代啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:07:16.895200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:07:22.351600+08:00","text":"我們講 15校也有其道理存在嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:07:22.351600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:07:27.808000+08:00","text":"對不對？是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:07:27.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:07:34.152000+08:00","text":"我說明一下剛剛講的 20 校、4,500 人或 5,000 人以及外加 6%。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:07:34.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:07:41.778000+08:00","text":"20 校這個數據相\n對於以前，一樣是 20 校，那就是 200 人，20 校的部分是 200 人。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:07:41.778000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:07:49.185500+08:00","text":"4,500 人到 5,000 人是這樣：\n4,500 人的時候是 5,300 人，5,000 人的時候是……抱歉，4,500 人的時候是 530 人，5,000 人的時\n候是 477 人。","quality":0.237},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:07:49.185500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:07:56.593000+08:00","text":"至於剛剛講的 6%，4,500 人那邊的狀況下是 43 人，5,000 人那邊是 40 人。","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:07:56.593000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:08:04.000500+08:00","text":"總之，\n如果先採高標，會比起以前多 1/3、33%，為 192人。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:08:04.000500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:08:11.408000+08:00","text":"你可不可以舉例，像是新竹縣、花蓮縣……","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:08:11.408000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:08:18.815500+08:00","text":"這個可能待會再向您報告一下劃到了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:08:18.815500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:08:26.223000+08:00","text":"這樣大家會比較有具體數字增加的感覺。","quality":0.059},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:08:26.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:08:37.688000+08:00","text":"是，一般來說，像新北市約略占全國的大部分，數據是 20%到 1/6、16%，也就是\n16%到 20%間。","quality":0.594},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:08:38.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:08:42.970000+08:00","text":"我以一個縣市為例，哇！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:08:47.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:09:19.787000+08:00","text":"像桃園會增加 14 到 16 人，類似這樣，就是會增加那麼\n多。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:09:19.787000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:09:20.787000+08:00","text":"14到 16 人也拿出來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:09:20.787000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:09:21.787000+08:00","text":"我們耗了這麼久，你告訴我增加 14到 16人？","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:09:21.787000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:09:22.787000+08:00","text":"那是一個縣市啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:09:22.787000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:09:23.787000+08:00","text":"還是啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:09:23.787000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:09:24.787000+08:00","text":"還是啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:09:24.787000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:09:25.787000+08:00","text":"還是啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:09:25.787000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:09:26.787000+08:00","text":"一個縣市啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:09:26.787000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:09:27.787000+08:00","text":"新北欸！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:09:27.787000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:09:28.787000+08:00","text":"有 400萬人口欸！","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:09:28.787000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:09:29.787000+08:00","text":"不，是桃園啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:09:29.787000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:09:30.787000+08:00","text":"我剛剛講的是桃園啦！喔！桃園。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:09:30.787000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:09:31.787000+08:00","text":"那新北拚一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:09:31.787000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:09:32.787000+08:00","text":"207\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:09:32.787000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:09:33.787000+08:00","text":"是原本的數字然後外加……","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:09:33.787000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:09:34.787000+08:00","text":"再加 14人？","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:09:20.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:09:20.887000+08:00","text":"會再外加，是外加喔！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:09:21.027000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:09:21.648000+08:00","text":"我知道是外加啊！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:09:21.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:09:24.009000+08:00","text":"可是本來就很少、人數很少啊！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:09:24.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:09:25.830000+08:00","text":"這就是學輔法要修的主要目的啊！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:09:26.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:09:27.971000+08:00","text":"你卻告\n訴我修法後只增加 14到 16 人！","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:09:28.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:09:30.992000+08:00","text":"桃園欸！","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:09:31.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:09:47.692000+08:00","text":"另外，我要跟委員報告，剛才郭委員也問到偏鄉跑來跑去的問題，其實大家對偏鄉那\n個 222人的想像可能是漏看了。","quality":0.711},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:09:50.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:09:51.837000+08:00","text":"剛才談的全部沒含偏鄉。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:09:51.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:09:55.480000+08:00","text":"剛剛已經確定、次長都已經確定沒有含偏鄉了。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:09:55.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:10:00.386000+08:00","text":"對，我知道，但我是說想像它的運作，運作的時候不能漏掉那 222人啊！","quality":0.731},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:10:03.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:10:07.149000+08:00","text":"我們剛剛講\n的 773人是不含那 222人的。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:10:08.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:10:10.792000+08:00","text":"對，所以 222人……是 222人。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:10:13.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:10:22.941000+08:00","text":"這 222 人是用當年度偏鄉國中學生計算，每個年度之間會不一樣，要看當\n年度偏鄉國中人數，所以是浮動的。","quality":0.595},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:10:22.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:10:27.724000+08:00","text":"再來是剛才郭委員也問的，他們有交通費、有補助交通費。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:10:27.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:11:22.946000+08:00","text":"所以，剛剛解決了幾個問題，如\n果今天大家談的 20 校沒有變，至於員額，以另外兩個指標衝到 192，是達原來的 33%、增加量\n為 33%，加上偏鄉 222 人以及交通費，再加上今天的附帶決議已經放到條文說明，就是我們會\n對各縣市要求多點設置分區中心，還有大校宜優先那一點，我覺得用這一整套之後，增加量…\n…我也跟大家報告一個數字：現行應聘率跟實聘率才從 79%升到 84%而已，所以還有 16%是整\n個現場的人才，以現在的方式外加那麼多我也怕，還有各位委員所擔心的我們也要顧慮，所以\n每幾年、每幾年就會檢討啦！","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:11:22.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:11:24.087000+08:00","text":"在幾年以後還是會檢討，每幾年還是會檢討。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:11:24.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:11:33.433000+08:00","text":"以現行這樣的運作\n方式已經增加達 33%，然後透過委員今天講的幾個附帶決議讓它實踐。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:11:33.433000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:11:46.714333+08:00","text":"否則，以原來的實聘率\n84%來看，落實度可能會可惜。","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:11:46.714333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:11:59.995667+08:00","text":"我們應讓它真正地發揮，連同配套措施、誘因等一併檢討。","quality":0.043},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:11:59.995667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:12:13.277000+08:00","text":"所以\n建議委員，我們儘快讓條文通過、趕快讓補助進到各位委員所提的很多重要配套措施，甚至經\n費上、像是交通費的配套措施，讓它真正可以動起來。謝謝。","quality":0.048},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:12:13.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:12:24.440000+08:00","text":"我記得在上次協商後我們也繼續爭取，而你們當時說沒有辦法一下增加那麼多的理由還\n有擔心一時之間聘不到這麼多專業的人。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:12:25.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:12:35.484000+08:00","text":"我自己則是覺得，要不然有一個方式，就是這條保留\n、繼續爭取，另外一個方式就是附帶決議再增加一個，內容就是三年內就滾動式檢討。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:12:35.484000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:12:42.105000+08:00","text":"因為大\n家希望的還是繼續增加嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:12:42.105000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:12:48.726000+08:00","text":"所以至少要讓大家的感覺不是下一次再修是不是 10 年後，大家當然\n都希望能夠愈來愈好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:12:48.726000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:12:55.347000+08:00","text":"我想除了剛剛陳培瑜委員講的分區中心設立之外，要有另外一個機制\n，就是三年內檢討。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:12:55.347000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:13:01.968000+08:00","text":"如果你們擔心的是一下子專業人才沒辦法補上，也就是要聘這麼多專輔人\n力沒辦法的話，那就三年內滾動式調整。","quality":0.021},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:13:01.968000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:13:08.589000+08:00","text":"要不然就是這一條保留，大家繼續爭取啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:13:08.589000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:13:15.210000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:13:15.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:13:16.711000+08:00","text":"208\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄\n我只是提出建議。","quality":0.318},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:13:18.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:13:18.873000+08:00","text":"附帶決議先寫一下。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:13:19.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:13:43.213000+08:00","text":"我知道大家都很想做好這部分，到目前為止，我們做了這麼多努力，不\n太可能有機會變成我剛剛所提到的這個層面，如果有的話，就是大家繼續耗著，然後再送回行\n政院、大家協商，又回來告訴我們不太可能，都是如此嘛！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:13:44.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:13:45.666000+08:00","text":"主席，我可以再問一下嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:13:46.686000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:13:46.907000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:13:48.127000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:13:59.074000+08:00","text":"對於署長的說明，我們可以了解，所以我剛剛也才會提議回頭看第四條，\n把錢跟人的事情合在一起看，因為司長剛剛再度提醒有主總、人總的關係。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:13:59.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:14:03.496000+08:00","text":"但我想問，署長剛\n剛說實聘率只有百分之七十幾……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:14:03.496000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:14:04.496000+08:00","text":"八十三點多。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:14:03.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:14:03.516000+08:00","text":"八十三點多？好。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:14:08.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:14:15.325000+08:00","text":"可能有一些困境是這樣：如果我的想像沒有錯，以來自實務的經驗\n，其實過往可能有一部分是因為薪資太低嘛！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:14:17.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:14:18.888000+08:00","text":"所以我們還是要回到第四條嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:14:19.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:14:25.074000+08:00","text":"我的意思是，如\n果依照我的想像跟這個有關、確實跟薪資有關，那我們就要很務實地來看薪資。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:14:25.214000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:14:26.995000+08:00","text":"至於剛剛范委員已經說要保留……","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:14:26.995000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:14:28.777000+08:00","text":"沒有，我是說如果。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:14:28.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:14:30.378000+08:00","text":"如果我們都沒有辦法接受……","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:14:30.378000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:14:35.351000+08:00","text":"不然附帶決議就是三年內檢討。","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:14:35.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:14:40.453000+08:00","text":"我剛剛只是想確定百分之八十幾這件事情其實真的跟薪資有關啦！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:14:40.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:14:41.373000+08:00","text":"我們收到非常多…\n…","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:14:42.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:14:46.675000+08:00","text":"對，所以我覺得回來看第四條關於薪點的部分應該也是很重要的。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-07T15:14:49.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:14:51.637000+08:00","text":"我們討論那麼久，不就是卡在這邊嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-07T15:14:52.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:14:56.919000+08:00","text":"如果這件事情好解決的話，其實上個會期最後\n也會通過嘛！","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-07T15:14:57.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:15:01.860000+08:00","text":"當然我們又多了 3 個月的時間討論，但其實也一樣啊！","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-07T15:15:02.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:15:11.642000+08:00","text":"薪資一定沒有辦法讓所有\n的人滿意，但要怎麼樣能夠在這個會期有所突破跟進展，我覺得這點也重要啊！","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-07T15:15:12.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:15:37.811000+08:00","text":"所以比較起來\n，我反而會比較建議，如果我們說要保留、再研議，即便委員會協商沒有成之後還有朝野協商\n，再由院長召集協商，我覺得還是有一樣的問題點，所以有沒有可能用一種方式，就是做出附\n帶決議，要求 3 年內檢討、甚至 2 年內，也就是比較積極的方向？","quality":0.845},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-07T15:15:38.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:15:45.459000+08:00","text":"我們的目標都是希望能夠先\n補足現有的不足，好不好？謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:15:49.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:16:00.995000+08:00","text":"學生輔導法第二十二條本來就規定每五年檢討一次，這次修法其實在 111 年就檢討、\n提出建議了，只是修法程序、審查過程很緩慢。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:16:02.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:16:03.258000+08:00","text":"下一次就是 116 年要檢討了嘛！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:16:03.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:16:08.792000+08:00","text":"剛好就是 3 年，\n所以大家不要擔心這條好像隔很久才會調整，不會的！","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:16:10.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:16:12.132000+08:00","text":"法令規定每五年就要檢討一次。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:16:12.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:16:20.974000+08:00","text":"你這樣講讓我們更傷心，五年要檢討一次，但我們在這邊還是在幫這些……講的話都一樣，\n209\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄\n所以表示檢討沒有用，之前不知道在檢討什麼。","quality":0.681},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-07T15:16:20.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:16:29.536000+08:00","text":"讓我們更傷心的就是已經晚兩年檢討了，因為照你這樣講每五年就要檢討，我們現在\n就是在補兩年前的破網，有點這樣的概念啊！對啊！","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:16:29.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:16:32.057000+08:00","text":"你們檢討老半天，薪資還是那麼低，沒有辦法吸引人。","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-07T15:16:32.057000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:16:33.743500+08:00","text":"要往前啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-07T15:16:33.743500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:16:35.430000+08:00","text":"我們往前努力啦！","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:16:35.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:16:44.867000+08:00","text":"針對做附帶決議的方法，在場委員都希望能夠幫這些學輔人員增加更多待遇上的誘因啦！","quality":0.784},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:16:48.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:16:58.752000+08:00","text":"我\n知道這個過程，說實在的，教育部也做了一些努力、很有誠意，大家有感受到，只是礙於財務\n的關係。好啦！","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:16:58.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:17:02.555000+08:00","text":"我們就在附帶決議裡面針對剛剛委員所關切的問題全部加以處理。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:17:02.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:17:03.976000+08:00","text":"現在看第十\n一條條文，這是附帶決議是嗎？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T15:17:03.976000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:17:04.976000+08:00","text":"立法說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:17:04.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:17:05.558000+08:00","text":"是立法說明，好不好？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:17:05.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:17:05.738000+08:00","text":"大家看一下。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:17:05.738000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:17:09.372000+08:00","text":"先看條文啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:17:09.372000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:17:13.006000+08:00","text":"條文看完之後再看立法說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:17:13.006000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:17:16.640000+08:00","text":"對於條文，各位看一下、大家仔細看，我們扯了","quality":0},{"speaker":"很久了","start":"2024-11-07T15:17:16.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:17:53.757000+08:00","text":"「各高級中等以下學校主管機關應依下列規定，置專任專業輔導人員；並得視實際需\n要置兼任專業輔導人員若干人：一、各高級中等以下學校主管機關所主管高級中等以下學校總\n數，合計二十校以下者，置一人，二十一校至四十校者，置二人，四十一校以上者以此類推。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"很久了","start":"2024-11-07T15:17:54.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:18:06.884000+08:00","text":"二、各高級中等以下學校主管機關所主管高級中等以下學校學生總數，除以中央主管機關公告\n介於四千五百至五千之基數。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"很久了","start":"2024-11-07T15:18:06.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:18:45.899000+08:00","text":"中央主管機關得考量各高級中等以下學校主管機關所主管高級中\n等以下學校之輔導案量、地理區域等特殊情況，在不超過前項各款加總計算之全國專任專業輔\n導人員總數百分之六範圍內，依其需求核予特定高級中等以下學校主管機關外加專任專業輔導\n人員額數，不受前項規定」……是「數額」，不好意思，謝謝，接著是「不受前項規定之限制\n」。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"很久了","start":"2024-11-07T15:18:46.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:19:03.992000+08:00","text":"接下來是「依前二項規定所置專任專業輔導人員，應由高級中等以下學校主管機關統籌調派\n，並得委由所設學生輔導諮商中心所在學校或擇定之學校聘用之。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"很久了","start":"2024-11-07T15:19:04.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:19:11.248000+08:00","text":"」再來如果一樣，我就跳過\n。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"很久了","start":"2024-11-07T15:19:11.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:19:29.636000+08:00","text":"再來是「專科以上學校學生九百人以下者，應置專任專業輔導人員至少一人；超過九百人者\n，每滿九百人增置專任專業輔導人員一人，未滿九百人而餘數達四百五十人以上者，得視業務\n需求，增置一人。","quality":0.704},{"speaker":"很久了","start":"2024-11-07T15:19:29.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:19:32.537000+08:00","text":"但空中大學及宗教研修學院，不在此限。","quality":1},{"speaker":"很久了","start":"2024-11-07T15:19:32.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:19:34.938000+08:00","text":"」後面就是我們之前所熟悉的條文\n。","quality":1},{"speaker":"很久了","start":"2024-11-07T15:19:35.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:19:35.799000+08:00","text":"大家有沒有意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"很久了","start":"2024-11-07T15:19:35.799000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:19:38.802000+08:00","text":"好，這項條文就通過。","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"很久了","start":"2024-11-07T15:19:38.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:19:39.803000+08:00","text":"附帶決議部分……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:19:42.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:19:43.106000+08:00","text":"還有設分點的部分……","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:19:50.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:19:50.872000+08:00","text":"之前委員的提案要不要處理？","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:19:53.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:20:02.120000+08:00","text":"第十一條附帶決議有范雲委員的、包含這一次還有上一次的，\n有 3 案都是范雲委員的。喔！","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:20:02.120000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:20:12.154000+08:00","text":"只有兩案。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:20:12.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:20:15.503000+08:00","text":"請教育部回應一下附帶決議，根據委員所提出來的內\n容回應。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:20:18.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:20:20.422000+08:00","text":"趁教育部在找的時候，我先簡單說明。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:20:20.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:20:31.532000+08:00","text":"我有兩處新增加的內容，一個是專科以上學校專\n輔人力相關的附帶決議，大家可以看一下有沒有找到我的附帶決議。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:20:31.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:20:44.303000+08:00","text":"內容就是考量專科以上學\n校專輔人員的薪資跟輔諮中心差不多，意思就是很有提升的必要，請教育部以修正補助要點，\n210\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄\n增訂專輔人員薪資待遇基準，納入評鑑項目及其他方式推動專科以上學校提升專輔人員薪資到\n委員會通過的輔諮中心專輔人員薪資待遇水平。","quality":0.452},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:20:44.303000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:20:45.303000+08:00","text":"因為等一下我們會處理那個薪資嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:20:44.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:21:04.353000+08:00","text":"所以我也\n希望一起提升專科以上學校專輔人員的薪資，那是整體的，這是一點。","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:21:04.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:21:06.115000+08:00","text":"在評鑑部分，我是希望\n在萬一沒有做到的時候，譬如說有些私立大學等等，專科以上學校專輔人力的薪資應該比照相\n關要點。","quality":0.412},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:21:21.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:21:21.315000+08:00","text":"另外是關於實驗教育學生。","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:21:21.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:21:25.998000+08:00","text":"我接到陳情，有實驗教育家長跟學生反映，雖然他們其實適用學\n輔法，可是非常不了解相關資源，所以我這項要求其實滿單純的，就是希望教育部研議怎麼加\n強。","quality":0.446},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:21:25.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:21:50.610000+08:00","text":"其實實驗教育學生也有很多滿需要使用學輔法的資源，希望你們能夠增強讓他們了解，其\n實他們可以使用學生輔導資源，也就是宣傳這部分。","quality":0.724},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:21:51.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:21:53.032000+08:00","text":"以上我就針對這兩點先說明一下。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:21:53.032000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:21:59.100000+08:00","text":"不好意思，針對第十一條有非常多人提出附帶決議，有范雲委員、有陳培瑜委員、有郭昱晴\n委員，還有柯志恩委員嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:21:59.100000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:22:05.168000+08:00","text":"還有誰？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:22:05.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:22:08.771000+08:00","text":"我上次提出的第十一條附帶決議可以嗎？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:22:08.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:22:29.786000+08:00","text":"就是專業督導對於心理師、社工師專業能力\n養成、服務品質的把關在各地落實的狀況不一樣，所以我希望在相關專業輔導人員設置辦法裡\n面可以針對品質把關這件事訂定專輔人員督導的設置規定，督導各縣市政府落實相關規範，這\n個部分可以嗎？可以。","quality":0.798},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:22:29.786000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:22:30.786000+08:00","text":"可以喔？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:22:29.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:22:29.906000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:22:36.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:22:36.475000+08:00","text":"還有沒有？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:22:36.475000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:22:37.475000+08:00","text":"還有郭昱晴委員講一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員昱晴","start":"2024-11-07T15:22:37.475000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:22:38.475000+08:00","text":"偏鄉部分上次已經特別改了，你們也說 OK 嘛！可以。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員昱晴","start":"2024-11-07T15:22:38.475000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:22:39.475000+08:00","text":"所以這部份的文字修改應該也沒問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:22:36.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:22:39.556000+08:00","text":"還有柯志恩委員的，你們那時候叫我修改「較多之大型學校，應優先派駐專任輔導人員」，\n對不對？","quality":0.763},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:22:39.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:23:07.615000+08:00","text":"你們希望把那個「應」改成「宜」，真的實在是，我都傻眼了，「應」跟「宜」，請\n問用「應」有什麼問題？","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:23:11.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:23:12.562000+08:00","text":"我認為很重要，所以應該用「應」啊！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:23:13.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:23:16.108000+08:00","text":"不是嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:23:16.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:23:16.508000+08:00","text":"不能用「應」嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:23:19.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:23:35.590000+08:00","text":"其\n實這個字眼是非常合理的，各位聽聽看：「駐校模式對於學校專業輔導工作具有正面效益，不\n僅能提供深度……」，所以，針對學生人數較多之大型學校，「應」優先派駐專任專業輔導人\n員，並維持大型學校輔導人力，很合理吧！","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:23:35.590000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:23:38.101667+08:00","text":"要用「應」吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:23:38.101667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:23:40.613333+08:00","text":"就這樣吧，教育部？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:23:40.613333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:23:43.125000+08:00","text":"這不是你們一\n貫的立場嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-07T15:23:43.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:23:45.447000+08:00","text":"主席，你的附帶決議在哪裡？","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:23:45.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:23:46.548000+08:00","text":"我說明一下啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:23:59.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:24:11.996000+08:00","text":"我們對於學生人數較多的大型學校有很清楚的定義，如果這個「應」\n下了，後續就會有執行的強制力；如果沒有訂那個「應」，那麼到底是哪裡還是有衡量的問題\n。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:24:11.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:24:15.540000+08:00","text":"所以你們要定義大型學校，所以我要給你大型學校的定義嗎？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:24:15.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:24:17.421000+08:00","text":"那就可以放我的「應」嗎？","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:24:17.421000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:24:18.421000+08:00","text":"另外一點是對於主管機關來講，手心是肉、手背是肉啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:24:18.421000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:24:19.421000+08:00","text":"這樣考慮一定是基於整體考\n211\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄\n量。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:24:19.421000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:24:20.421000+08:00","text":"這都是之前的附帶決議。","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:24:20.421000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:24:21.421000+08:00","text":"請署長。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:24:19.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:24:55.449000+08:00","text":"關於召委剛剛所提的，我們在理念上完全知道委員要做的協助，至於實務上，\n有時候他如果是少觀所出來的，不一定會在特定的大規模學校，也可能在中型學校，如果沒有\n給縣市權限視真正情形來處理，下了「應」字的話，會讓一些地方失去調節的彈性。","quality":0.396},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:24:55.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:24:58.570000+08:00","text":"你是說對中型學校反而沒有辦法做這樣的處理？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:24:58.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:25:01.792000+08:00","text":"對，因為在有些需要彈性的時候，是不是應該交給地方政府？","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:25:02.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:25:06.313000+08:00","text":"地方政府對真實情形最\n清楚，那我們就給它尊重，這也是他們的表達，謝謝。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:25:06.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:25:07.234000+08:00","text":"好，可以、可以、可以。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:25:08.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:25:11.295000+08:00","text":"反正這個附帶決議……好！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:25:11.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:25:12.276000+08:00","text":"本席同意。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:25:15.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:25:17.939000+08:00","text":"還有沒有其他委員有附帶決議？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:25:17.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:25:21.232000+08:00","text":"針對第十一條的附帶決議非常多，教育部的態度？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:25:22.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:25:25.295000+08:00","text":"對於委員所提的附帶決議，我們都遵照辦理。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:25:26.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:25:33.380000+08:00","text":"另外就是剛才提的，一點是分區設置，還有一點是三年內要重新檢討人力配置，這塊\n我們正在研擬文字當中。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:25:34.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:25:35.221000+08:00","text":"主席，我可以最後補充嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:25:35.221000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:25:38.003000+08:00","text":"我本來還想講的，但現在都要用附帶決議了。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:25:38.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:26:09.364000+08:00","text":"針對現在的\n學輔諮中心，就是關於地方主管機關這一條，他們的考選制度不一樣，導致我們之前一直跟教\n育部談相關人員的品質，那教育部可不可以在這次修法的時候，一樣放附帶決議就好，不用入\n法，但是針對相關考選方式，不管是筆試、面試、什麼對著空氣模擬這種，與各縣市政府討論\n出比較 rough 的版本，讓他們知道有所本，而不是自己決定愛怎麼考就怎麼考，這樣可以嗎？","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:26:09.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:26:15.849000+08:00","text":"這\n樣才能確保進學輔諮中心人員的品質，因為學輔諮中心處理的是處於最困難狀況的孩子嘛！","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:26:15.849000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:26:23.712667+08:00","text":"關\n於這部分，我相信署長一定知道我在講的現場困境，那就放在附帶決議，針對相關考選用標準\n，不論是在資格審核上、在考試方法上、在進用人才的方法上，都跟各縣市開會討論出最大公\n約數、大家都可以接受的版本，確保考進來人員的相關素質，這樣可以嗎？","quality":0.019},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:26:23.712667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:26:31.576333+08:00","text":"可以啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:26:31.576333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:26:39.440000+08:00","text":"附帶決議？","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:26:39.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:26:45.705000+08:00","text":"在資格上是全國一致，至於您剛剛講到後續一些辦理考選的方法，大家商量一下，做\n成比較……","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:26:45.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:26:46.346000+08:00","text":"對，要有最大公約數，好不好？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:26:46.346000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:26:47.346000+08:00","text":"我了解，應該可以進行啦！","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:26:46.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:26:48.487000+08:00","text":"附帶決議寫一下，針對專輔教師的部分，好不好？是。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:26:48.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:26:49.048000+08:00","text":"是專輔教師的部分，可以嗎？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:26:49.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:26:49.468000+08:00","text":"剛剛講的是第十一條……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:26:49.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:26:51.250000+08:00","text":"針對委員剛才講的，資格上我們可能沒有辦法用協商的，因為資格是規定怎麼樣，就\n絕對要那樣，但還有考法啦！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:27:08.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:27:13.669000+08:00","text":"委員目前所提的是甄選程序啦！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2024-11-07T15:27:14.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:27:19.876000+08:00","text":"而不涉及資格，有些資格在法規\n212\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄\n寫了。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:27:19.876000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:27:21.331000+08:00","text":"OK，好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:27:21.331000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:27:22.786000+08:00","text":"那寫一下吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:27:22.786000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:27:24.241000+08:00","text":"好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:27:24.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:27:27.324000+08:00","text":"在條文部分，如果大家沒有問題，范雲委員，你對條文部分有沒有意見？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:27:27.324000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:27:28.324000+08:00","text":"OK 吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:27:28.324000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:27:29.324000+08:00","text":"我們剛念完\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:27:29.324000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:27:30.324000+08:00","text":"條文就這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:27:30.324000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:27:31.324000+08:00","text":"好，條文部分就照行政院提案吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:27:28.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:27:28.780000+08:00","text":"好不好？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:27:28.780000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:27:42.881000+08:00","text":"然後，我們剛剛所提的附帶決議就稍微……他們\n6 案都遵照辦理嘛！","quality":0.04},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:27:42.881000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:27:56.982000+08:00","text":"只是剛剛陳培瑜委員額外希望再增加幾個文字上的敘述、兩條敘述。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:27:56.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:27:57.783000+08:00","text":"給陳培\n瑜委員看一下吧！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:27:57.783000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:27:59.084000+08:00","text":"已經修正了。OK。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:27:59.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:28:02.666000+08:00","text":"對於第十條附帶決議，陳培瑜委員 OK？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:28:03.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:28:05.308000+08:00","text":"好，那就通過。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:28:06.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:28:06.810000+08:00","text":"進行第四條。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:28:09.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:28:11.833000+08:00","text":"立法意旨來看一下，各位，大家仔細看一下好不好？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:28:25.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:28:33.929000+08:00","text":"「宜以設置分區學生輔導\n諮商中心彈性方式配置輔導人員，以便就近調派，即時提供鄰近區域學校輔導資源服務」，我\n都只念紅字喔！","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:28:33.929000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:28:35.169000+08:00","text":"因為其他部分大家的疑義不大，「對於人數較多之大型學校，宜優先派駐專業\n輔導人員，以維持大型學校學生輔導工作穩定發展。","quality":0.731},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:28:35.169000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:28:37.792857+08:00","text":"」我以前認為應該用「應」，你們又寫了\n一個「宜」，真的是……\n往下，後面還有什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:28:37.792857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:28:40.416714+08:00","text":"沒有了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:28:40.416714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:28:43.040571+08:00","text":"大家有沒有意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:28:43.040571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:28:45.664429+08:00","text":"沒有意見喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:28:45.664429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:28:48.288286+08:00","text":"好，很好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:28:48.288286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:28:50.912143+08:00","text":"進行第十二條，來吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:28:50.912143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:28:53.536000+08:00","text":"各位，看第十二條，最後回來才看第四條，第四條才是重中之重啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:28:53.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:28:54.556000+08:00","text":"進行第十二條。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:29:17.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:29:17.496000+08:00","text":"我說明一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:29:19.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:29:33.267000+08:00","text":"針對第十二條，各位可以看一下，根據原本第十二條的敘述，針對有\n55 班以上學校的專業輔導人員，文字敘述上都是把學校輔導人員跟專任輔導老師的職責寫在一\n起，但是因為現在已經確定把駐校那塊拿掉，全部都由地方輔諮中心統籌調派，所以在文字上\n配合調整。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:29:33.267000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:29:34.267000+08:00","text":"而這條會保留是因為要等關於駐校的第十一條確認啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:29:33.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:29:47.677000+08:00","text":"現在已經確定了，第十二條\n……好啦！","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:29:47.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:29:49.918000+08:00","text":"第十二條就把……我這樣可以吧？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:29:50.218000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:29:50.518000+08:00","text":"合法吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:29:50.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:30:03.064000+08:00","text":"把紅字部分唸一遍就好，因為前面文字我\n們都熟了，改的字是「學校主管機關所置專業輔導人員，負責執行處遇性輔導，並協助發展性\n及介入性輔導之推動」，OK？","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:30:03.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:30:03.804000+08:00","text":"好不好？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:30:05.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:30:07.626000+08:00","text":"我們就修正通過。謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:30:08.167000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:30:09.287000+08:00","text":"現在是第十七條。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:30:09.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:30:09.307000+08:00","text":"請司長。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:30:15.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:30:29.289000+08:00","text":"第十七條原本有兩項，第一項談到學生輔導相關工作人員對於涉及學生個資的部分要\n予以保密，避免外洩，除非是緊急危難的情況，則不在此限。","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:30:29.289000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:30:48.193000+08:00","text":"第二項講的就是這些輔導工作相\n關人員必須遵守專業倫理，要確保學生接受專業服務的權益不受影響。","quality":0.186},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:30:48.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:31:03.361000+08:00","text":"針對第二項，有委員提\n案將第二項刪除，增列成第十七條之一，同時針對專業倫理準則是不是由中央主管機關訂定，\n以及將來違反專業倫理規定的調查、處理、懲戒加以規定，有委員有這樣的提案啦！","quality":0.713},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:31:04.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:31:14.065000+08:00","text":"針對這部\n分，我們經過內部討論，同意將第十七條第二項予以刪除，移列到第十七條之一的第一項。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:31:14.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:31:18.246000+08:00","text":"大\n家看一下黑字部分，那是從原本的第十七條第二項移過來的。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:31:18.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:31:30.910000+08:00","text":"另外，增加第二項，就是「前項\n213\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄\n所稱的專業倫理是指前項學生輔導工作相關人員按其身分別或專業別，依教師法、心理師法及\n社工師法相關規定所應遵守的倫理規範。","quality":0.756},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:31:30.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:31:39.292000+08:00","text":"」換句話說，教師法、心理師法、社工師法對於教師\n、心理師或社工師都已經有很嚴謹的規範了啦！","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:31:39.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:31:42.613000+08:00","text":"理論上應該回到這些相關法令規範處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:31:44.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:31:48.614000+08:00","text":"先作\n以上說明，謝謝。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-07T15:31:48.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:31:48.794000+08:00","text":"同意啦！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-07T15:31:49.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:31:49.734000+08:00","text":"部版可以啊！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-07T15:31:53.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:31:57.696000+08:00","text":"這樣看起來比現行條文更加完整啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:32:04.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:32:05.606000+08:00","text":"洪孟楷委員，謝謝。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:32:05.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:32:05.806000+08:00","text":"還有沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:32:07.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:32:12.812000+08:00","text":"我是覺得增訂好像沒有比較好欸！","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:32:13.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:32:17.876000+08:00","text":"因為不同身分別本來就應該遵守自己的專業規定嘛！","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:32:18.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:33:06.899000+08:00","text":"我反而覺得如果沒有依照我們本來有提的條款，那就用附帶決議處理，要求教育部應該去把跟\n教師相關的輔導……就是教師進行輔導工作的時候其實也會涉及專業倫理，而且學校的空間跟\n一般專業諮商的環境不大一樣，針對守密部分，教育部應該參考民間專業倫理守則，廣泛蒐集\n意見、溝通，確保教師進行輔導工作時也有專業倫理的守則可以遵循，我們原本跟你們遊說我\n們的條文的時候，你們就說要讓他們回去遵守原來的法令，但本來就應該遵守原來的法令，這\n是基本的。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:33:07.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:33:26.371000+08:00","text":"所以這裡如果不依照我跟陳培瑜委員的版本，就應該有一項附帶決議要求參考民間\n專業倫理，譬如說輔諮學會也訂了學生輔導工作人員守則，或者根據剛剛我們講的社工等各相\n關規定修訂你們原本的內容啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:33:26.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:33:29.833000+08:00","text":"譬如說針對教師的內容是不是也要增訂在這裡面？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:33:30.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:33:30.253000+08:00","text":"我覺得應該\n這樣才對吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:33:37.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:33:40.595000+08:00","text":"因為我們原本是要你們訂一個學生輔導工作人員專業倫理規範嘛！","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:33:40.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:33:46.055000+08:00","text":"那你們的理由\n是這樣會疊床架屋，應依照各專業團體，例如社工師等身分規範，但社工師要什麼身分？","quality":0.512},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:33:48.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:33:51.356000+08:00","text":"他們\n在考證照的時候，專業本來就有了。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:33:51.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:34:05.979000+08:00","text":"而我們現在講的是校園，範圍比較廣，譬如說有教師沒有\n這樣的身分卻進行輔導工作的時候，其實都應該有專業倫理守則規範可以依循，所以附帶決議\n請教育部參考跟檢討。","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:34:10.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:34:10.378000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝主席。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:34:12.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:34:16.225000+08:00","text":"我要講的題目可能有點大，但我想教育部應該懂我的意思。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:34:16.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:34:54.423000+08:00","text":"請教育部\n把整套學生輔導法打開來看，我們這次想要強調的除了大家在意的薪點、班級人數的調整之外\n，其實我們也希望這次修法讓大家更能看見三級輔導機制的連貫性，其專業性也必須被看見，\n不要再讓學校的人都覺得輔導老師一天到晚沒事做，反正只是在跟學生講話嘛！","quality":0.57},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:34:54.423000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:35:05.827667+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:35:05.827667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:35:17.232333+08:00","text":"然後\n，不論是第一級、第二級、第三級，每一個人都必須認知到自己在專業工作可能真的會遇到學\n生來跟你唉兩聲，而你因為有危機意識、有輔導意識，所以對學生作出相關的回應，確保學生\n的平衡發展。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:35:17.232333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:35:28.637000+08:00","text":"如果把這個邏輯放進來，其實我們當時要談所謂校內學生輔導工作相關人員應謹\n守專業倫理，用意是希望就算是校工、校安，尤其是校安──我要再次強調，尤其是很多校安\n人員，在過往校安事件當中，其實有很多是因為校安人員的問題，如果我們沒有相關法規範去\n確保這些人有沒有謹守專業倫理，我還是會擔心。","quality":0.194},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:35:28.637000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:35:49.414000+08:00","text":"當然，我知道你們說的心理師、社工師、教\n師都已經有相關專業倫理規範，這沒有問題，但我們自己不要忘記，三級輔導機制是未來要落\n實、努力的目標，並且會有大量教育宣導、政策對話，讓學校裡的每個人都知道他必須承擔這\n個工作，那就必須有專業倫理規範他們，當他承接到或意識到有這件事情時，其實有規範在協\n214\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄\n助大家支持學生。","quality":0.682},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:35:49.414000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:36:18.497000+08:00","text":"如果你們真的認為條文修正有困難，請告訴我有什麼方法確保相關人員在這\n件事情上有相關認知跟規範。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-11-07T15:36:18.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:36:19.317000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的提醒。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-11-07T15:36:20.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:36:50.538000+08:00","text":"關於這個規範，在處理學生權益時確實不會只有老師、心理師或社\n工師，學校的校安人員或行政同仁，甚至志工、幹事等都有可能經手，在參與初期預防這樣的\n過程裡，事實上也可能接觸個案許多隱私。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-11-07T15:36:51.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:37:22.656000+08:00","text":"對於個案的隱私、權利等怎麼維護、確保，我具體\n建議，一樣用附帶決議訂出教育相關人員──如校安人員、幹事、志工等，對於輔導工作的保\n密指引，在這項保密指引訂定的時候也邀請老師、心理師、社工師等相關團體，大家一起研擬\n怎麼落實專業倫理的規範。","quality":0.856},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:37:25.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:37:32.361000+08:00","text":"所以你是說第十七條還要再用附帶決議的方法處理未盡事宜，是不是？","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:37:33.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:37:34.062000+08:00","text":"是這樣子嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:37:34.062000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:37:38.212250+08:00","text":"可不可以再加一個？","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:37:38.212250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:37:42.362500+08:00","text":"也應該規定違反時的處理機制。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-11-07T15:37:42.362500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:37:46.512750+08:00","text":"我們在工作指引裡邊處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:37:46.512750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:37:50.663000+08:00","text":"工作指引本身就會有啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:37:50.663000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:37:54.813250+08:00","text":"工作指引裡本來就會有呀！","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:37:54.813250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:37:58.963500+08:00","text":"這樣可能就更嚴謹一點，例如把包括哪些人寫得更嚴謹。對啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:37:58.963500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:38:03.113750+08:00","text":"這是為了嚴謹的需要。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:38:03.113750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:38:07.264000+08:00","text":"不過說實在的，身為諮商輔導者，他們本身的專業倫理就刻在\n骨子裡了，所以談到專業倫理，本來就應該對他們產生極度的信心啦！是啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-07T15:38:07.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:38:10.465000+08:00","text":"對，主席，這一點我也想請教教育部。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-07T15:38:11.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:38:17.587000+08:00","text":"以現在的法條，其實我看完之後覺得你們這樣\n的修正其實是合乎邏輯的。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-07T15:38:19.548000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:38:35.733000+08:00","text":"說實在的，不管是教師、心理師或輔導人員，本來就已經有這些倫\n理規範了，只是相較於社會，學生輔導法的對象是學生，但不因為對象是學生或對象是一般人\n就有不同倫理啊！是啊！","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:38:36.214000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:38:38.896000+08:00","text":"所以有沒有必要在這一條……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-07T15:38:38.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:38:45.842000+08:00","text":"這就是為什麼反而讓大家覺得有疊床架屋的狀況啊！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-07T15:38:46.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:38:53.669000+08:00","text":"當然，有委員提出來，我覺得也很嚴謹沒有錯，但重點其實是有沒有必要這樣做。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-11-07T15:38:56.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:39:21.073000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，本來我們也相信老師、心理師、社工師都有專業倫理的法條在規範，這\n點沒有問題，但是我剛才要針對委員所提意見補充的就是參與過程的不會只有老師，有時候可\n能有校安人員，而校安人員不一定是老師，所以針對教育人員的法條規範可能有沒辦法周延的\n地方。","quality":0.805},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-11-07T15:39:30.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:39:40.916000+08:00","text":"如果在需要的時候，我們能夠把沒有受教師法、心理師法、社工師法規範，在規範之外\n的人，假設他也剛好參與或知道這個訊息，那我們怎麼樣做到管理。","quality":0.656},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:39:41.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:39:56.979000+08:00","text":"部長，洪委員和我的意見是這些專業人員本身其實就會受到這些法條的約制，而且他們本身\n就具有非常專業的部分，所以不需要再從第十七條之一這個層面額外提出來，不需要！","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:39:57.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:39:57.659000+08:00","text":"學生輔\n導法的最後不要 ending 在這個地方。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:39:57.659000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:40:05.519000+08:00","text":"在前面第十七條這邊其實就有類似作用。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:40:05.519000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:40:13.379000+08:00","text":"如果部長仍覺得\n要有的話，那就另外以附帶決議等方式處理，至於在法條上，我覺得在第十七條之一這個層面\n215\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄\n上其實是沒有必要的啦！","quality":0.014},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:40:13.379000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:40:21.239000+08:00","text":"大家覺得怎麼樣？對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:40:21.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:40:23.280000+08:00","text":"我是覺得不用增訂，但是要有個附帶決議。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:40:25.261000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:40:27.302000+08:00","text":"針對相關的人員跟機制。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:40:27.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:40:41.951000+08:00","text":"當然這是在附帶決議要決定的，但不用在第十七條之一告訴我們大家應盡的責任，好像我是\n小朋友；我已經知道我要幹嘛了，你卻又給我一條，但我覺得對我來說，這是天經地義的事情\n，好不好？","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:40:42.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:40:42.451000+08:00","text":"OK，好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:40:43.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:40:48.254000+08:00","text":"第十七條之一刪除，就用附帶決議額外處理，這樣好不好？","quality":0.696},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:40:48.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:40:48.695000+08:00","text":"好，感謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:40:49.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:41:10.828000+08:00","text":"主席，我想確定一下，因為我當時就提出附帶決議，要求訂定學生輔導工作相關人員\n（如學校老師、學務創新及校安人員、職員、教練、社團教師、志工等）對於學生輔導的指引\n（如保密等），以及有關違反專業倫理之專業輔導教師、心理師、社工師應依相關辦法處理，\n所以也請教育部確定這個附帶是不是可以採用。","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-07T15:41:10.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:41:17.633000+08:00","text":"主席、主席，抱歉、抱歉，你說現在第十七條之一要拿掉，那這條今天就不要修啦！","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-07T15:41:17.633000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:41:18.633000+08:00","text":"第十七條要把「前項人員並應謹守專業倫理，維護……」這個部分保留嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:41:18.633000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:41:19.633000+08:00","text":"就是貼回去，也就是原來的條文。OK。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:41:19.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:41:19.195000+08:00","text":"就是維持現行條文，這樣就好了。","quality":0.308},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-07T15:41:19.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:41:43.835000+08:00","text":"但現行條文是「前項人員」，現在講的是「學生輔導工作相關人員」，所以還是有修\n，文字要確認。","quality":0.361},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-07T15:41:44.335000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:41:48.415000+08:00","text":"你看，現行條文是前項人員並應遵守相關嘛！","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-07T15:41:48.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:41:48.895000+08:00","text":"是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-07T15:41:50.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:41:53.096000+08:00","text":"現行法是「前項人員」\n嘛！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-07T15:41:53.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:42:04.658000+08:00","text":"可是現在講的文字是「學生輔導工作相關人員」，要就是這條不修、用附帶決議，或者就\n是要改。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-07T15:42:12.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:42:15.282000+08:00","text":"是，這就是原有條文，所以就不修正？OK。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:42:17.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:42:18.723000+08:00","text":"維持現行條文，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:42:19.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:42:24.345000+08:00","text":"然後，其他大家剛剛所顧慮的請用附帶決議來處理，到時候附帶決\n議請給我們看一下。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:42:25.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:42:28.346000+08:00","text":"第十七條的附帶決議教育部看過，范雲委員的呢？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:42:31.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:42:35.808000+08:00","text":"第十七條有范雲委員的\n附帶決議，教育部的意見呢？","quality":0.619},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:42:35.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:42:36.028000+08:00","text":"還有陳培瑜委員的。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:42:36.028000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:42:41.532000+08:00","text":"本來是寫第十七條之一的，可是又變成第十七條的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:42:41.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:42:45.714000+08:00","text":"對，所以把第十七條之一的附帶決議拿回來。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:42:45.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:42:53.497000+08:00","text":"我先跟大家討論一下，現在是 3 點 45 分，而第四條的附帶決議很重要，各位要繼續，還是擇\n期？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:42:53.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:42:56.298000+08:00","text":"我尊重大家意見，擇期？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:42:59.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:43:01.680000+08:00","text":"你們不要以為我們看起來都很閒的樣子，我們很忙欸！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:43:01.680000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:43:07.202000+08:00","text":"尊重召委的意見，因為能爭取的都已經努力爭取了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:43:07.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:43:10.003000+08:00","text":"關於第四條，我們現在只剩下第四條的附帶決議。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:43:10.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:43:13.985000+08:00","text":"我覺得委員對於第四條的附帶決議其實還\n是有一些想法啦！","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:43:16.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:43:23.348000+08:00","text":"但還沒討論，所以我的意見是現在已經 3 點 43 分，如果要把這部分弄完，我\n可以，但是部長已經從早待到現在。","quality":0.738},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:43:30.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:43:37.829000+08:00","text":"我們把這邊處理完，只剩下第四條的附帶決議，就是附帶\n216\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄\n決議中的薪點有問題啊！","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-11-07T15:43:37.829000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:43:38.829000+08:00","text":"我們來研議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-11-07T15:43:37.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:43:38.449000+08:00","text":"第四條條文沒有問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:43:38.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:43:50.236000+08:00","text":"第四條沒有問題，第四條、第五條都沒有問題，而是對於附帶決議裡面針對薪資的部分，大\n家非常有意見。","quality":0.405},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:44:04.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:44:14.987000+08:00","text":"如果大家繼續把它弄完整……附帶決議提一下，快點！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:44:14.987000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:44:23.857667+08:00","text":"召委，剛剛討論的第十一條有兩個附帶決議，一個是專輔人員的配置每三年進行檢討\n，還有一個就是將來輔諮中心的專業輔導人員統籌調派要依照分區設置、就近調派服務，這兩\n部分委員都簽署了，是不是遵照……","quality":0.116},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:44:23.857667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:44:32.728333+08:00","text":"遵照辦理？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:44:32.728333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:44:41.599000+08:00","text":"OK，好，你們就遵照辦理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:44:41.599000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:44:50.469667+08:00","text":"陳培瑜委員，沒問題喔？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:44:50.469667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:44:59.340333+08:00","text":"這個 OK，都溝通過了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:44:59.340333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:45:08.211000+08:00","text":"這是第十一條，我也簽字吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:45:08.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:45:08.712000+08:00","text":"教育部的意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:45:30.627000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:45:34.369000+08:00","text":"針對第十一條，如果教育部沒有意見的話，附帶決議就通過。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:45:34.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:45:39.071000+08:00","text":"那第十七條之一我還要念嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:45:39.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:45:39.912000+08:00","text":"還是大家認為已經 OK 了？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:45:41.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:45:43.314000+08:00","text":"可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:45:44.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:45:44.495000+08:00","text":"附帶決議啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:45:46.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:45:48.197000+08:00","text":"螢幕上是……對啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:45:48.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:45:48.777000+08:00","text":"附帶決議啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:45:49.778000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:45:50.078000+08:00","text":"剛剛就已經討論過啦！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:45:51.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:45:52.419000+08:00","text":"通案嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:45:52.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:45:53.520000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:45:53.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:45:54.300000+08:00","text":"對，通案，這條刪掉。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:45:58.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:46:11.443000+08:00","text":"沒錯，有關學生輔導工作相關人員的部分，請於 3個月內研議並提出規劃報告，訂定學生輔\n導工作相關人員，也就是下面列出這些人對於學生輔導之指引（如保密等）。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:46:11.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:46:17.284000+08:00","text":"第二是有關違反\n專業倫理規範之專業輔導教師、心理師，、社會工作師應依教師法、心理師法及社會工作師法\n之規範處理，OK？OK。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:46:31.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:46:39.957000+08:00","text":"第十條及第十一條的附帶決議，可以這樣針對兩條寫嗎？","quality":0.609},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:46:43.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:46:45.962000+08:00","text":"好，放在一起就對了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:46:46.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:46:46.662000+08:00","text":"OK，好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:46:50.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:46:53.398000+08:00","text":"第十七條就照行政院版本通過，好不好？好。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:46:54.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:46:55.220000+08:00","text":"回到第四條。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:46:55.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:46:58.442000+08:00","text":"第四條條文是通過的，現在處理附帶決議部分。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:46:59.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:47:03.085000+08:00","text":"請司長。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T15:47:03.085000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:47:04.085000+08:00","text":"剛剛講的第十七條是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:47:03.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:47:06.327000+08:00","text":"是維持現行版本、維持現行條文。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:47:14.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:47:16.034000+08:00","text":"第四條現在開始討論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:47:19.645000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:47:21.466000+08:00","text":"第四條要討論一下，就是最重要的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:47:22.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:47:32.054000+08:00","text":"關於第四條，主要是因為在委員會完成審查之後、朝野協商過程中，我們希望爭取時\n間趕快、及早研議啦！","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:47:32.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:47:38.739000+08:00","text":"所以謝謝部裡林常次幫忙召集，也邀了行政院人事總處、主計總處、衛\n福部，還邀請專業團體以及地方政府共同討論，總共有開 5 次會，基本上，大家對於目前調整\n的方向滿有共識的。","quality":0.361},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:48:00.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:48:15.365000+08:00","text":"第一個就是針對專業輔導人員部分，學士學位或碩士學位目前的薪水是差 1\n階，這部分希望從差 1 階調整為差 2 階，所以普遍來說，心理師的待遇一個月應該會增加 2,000\n元左右，這是第一個重點。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:48:16.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:48:30.718000+08:00","text":"第二就是專輔人員擔任督導的部分，我們目前訂有條件跟資格，督導若是學士畢業必須服務\n217\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄\n滿 4 年、碩士畢業要服務滿 2 年才具有資格擔任督導。","quality":0.726},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:48:30.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:48:40.807000+08:00","text":"而且督導的職責確實是比較重的，所以\n我們經過討論之後，建議專輔人員擔任督導時，薪水可以再較原來的薪水晉 2 階。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:48:44.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:49:01.520000+08:00","text":"如果有一天\n他不當督導了，回任專業輔導人員，則可能會受到輔導人員薪資天花板的限制，但他擔任督導\n這段期間的年資一樣視同輔導人員年資，是可以被採認的，目前調整的方向大概是這樣。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:49:01.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:49:09.205000+08:00","text":"所以\n針對督導人員的薪水天花板，我們也配合提高，調整到跟保護性社工督導的薪資天花板一樣。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:49:09.205000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:49:29.945667+08:00","text":"針對剛剛談的這幾個方向，基本上在溝通過程中都有相當程度的共識，剩下待大家處理的可\n能在於薪點折合率那一塊。","quality":0.02},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:49:29.945667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:49:50.686333+08:00","text":"目前我們是比照社安網社工，調整到 140.3，但保護性社工的薪點折\n合率是到一百四十二點多，還是比較高的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:49:50.686333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:50:11.427000+08:00","text":"在討論調整的時候，大家覺得好像還是要有所區別\n，因為保護性社工的專輔人員是要值夜班的，也就是要 24 小時輪值，處理兒少保護或受害人保\n護，所以他是辛苦程度比較高，大家覺得還是要有一點點區隔，我們並沒有說完全不調整，只\n是這一波是希望先讓敘薪起點跟天花板的部分趕快調整，一般的心理師可以多 2,000，元；如果\n是擔任督導，可以再多 4,000 元，因為晉兩階，大概方向是這樣。","quality":0.194},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:50:11.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:50:36.780000+08:00","text":"至於其他部分，我們也有跟衛福部建議，因為我們這樣調整之後，對於社安網的一般性社工\n，其實是有某種程度的衝擊，所以也有請衛福部幫忙，就是社安網的第 2 期計畫，這是到明年\n底截止，屆時可能整個計畫也要重新做思考、調整，希望衛福部後續也能有所因應，以避免社\n安網的一般性社工往學校這邊大量移動，造成排擠跟衝擊，以上說明。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:50:37.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:50:50.905000+08:00","text":"所以社安網的部分，要請衛福部就他們的薪資來做考量，說實在的，這都是環環相扣，他們\n的薪資每次都會考慮到，所以應該是有努力地把他們的薪資也往上提升，畢竟他們真的是非常\n的辛苦，不是嗎？","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:50:51.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:51:00.347000+08:00","text":"我們前面 5次的會議衛福部每次都有來，基本上這個過程他們都有充分參與，他們尊\n重我們目前的規劃，也知道將來連動的那一部分要去進行下一波的檢討。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-11-07T15:51:00.347000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:51:06.736000+08:00","text":"我們是訂得比它多的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-11-07T15:51:06.736000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:51:13.125000+08:00","text":"所以社工師調整……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:51:13.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:51:13.966000+08:00","text":"一定要跟著調整啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:51:14.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:51:43.940000+08:00","text":"我是說社工師的部分應該要讓他們再調高一點，每一次我們也是怕有所\n謂的剝奪性的概念，剛剛你說屆時會往我們這邊來挪移，但問題是他們那邊的薪資你永遠不調\n整，我們這邊說實在的雖然也有考慮到，但彼此之間好像是一直在牽拖，這個東西是不對的，\n所以我個人認為，衛福部就這個層面也要為社工師薪點的部分來多多爭取他們的權益。","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:51:44.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:51:44.760000+08:00","text":"各位委\n員，附帶決議有沒有意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:51:49.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:52:02.662000+08:00","text":"我先說明，因為委員對於第四條的附帶決議提了好幾個，對此，我們有考慮過，因為\n有一些條文我們經過討論是做不到的，譬如說主管加給、職務加給、專業證照加給……","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:52:02.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:52:05.644000+08:00","text":"你把那個附帶決議給各位委員看一下，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:52:06.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:52:08.106000+08:00","text":"我們有發送給委員，就是內容裡面有分成三點，這張有沒有印給大家？","quality":0.357},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:52:08.106000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:52:20.481200+08:00","text":"在場人員：我們沒有啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:52:20.481200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:52:32.856400+08:00","text":"委員要簽名……對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:52:32.856400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:52:45.231600+08:00","text":"我要簽名。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:52:45.231600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:52:57.606800+08:00","text":"218\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:52:57.606800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:53:09.982000+08:00","text":"因為那個就是我們講的重中之重，從上次會議之後，我也持續地跟教育部溝通要如何去\n增加專輔人員跟主任、督導的薪資待遇，這主要就是教育部跟人總、主總共同要處理的問題，\n經過不斷的溝通、共同努力下，也要謝謝教育部的努力，去跟人總、跟主總，大家一起去跟行\n政院爭取，目前的確是專輔人員跟督導的薪資地板和天花板的等階，有依照我自己原本提的附\n帶決議內容，這有兩個，一個是專輔人員，一個是主任、督導。","quality":0.129},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:53:09.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:53:23.892000+08:00","text":"現在還有一個問題，就是專業證照加給的部分，我的版本原本是提到，專輔人員持有國家專\n技、高考專業證照者，應合理給予執業執照加給，並不應低於保護性社工師執業執照加給 32 薪\n點。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:53:30.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:53:45.204000+08:00","text":"就這一點，教育部，還有好像是衛福部，很堅持保護性社工是 142 點，而那個部分是更高\n的，所以這個部分不知道還有沒有空間？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:53:45.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:53:53.108000+08:00","text":"其他的部分，我已經很盡力的爭取，教育部也一直幫\n忙在爭取，這也要肯定教育部的調整。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:53:53.108000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:53:54.235000+08:00","text":"針對現在的版本，我覺得還不夠滿意的，就是專業證照\n的部分，所以大家再討論看看。","quality":0.235},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T15:53:54.235000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:53:55.362000+08:00","text":"剛剛主持人、主席也有講，就是社工那邊如果能夠增加，但這\n又涉及到衛福部更困難的部分。","quality":0.081},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-11-07T15:53:55.362000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:53:56.489000+08:00","text":"聘用都是要有專業證照啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:53:56.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:54:17.595000+08:00","text":"主席，我可以先一併問嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:54:18.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:54:27.919000+08:00","text":"我先一併問好了，所以我們確定一下，目前大家一起努力爭取的就是參考衛福部相關\n規定中的保護性社工敘薪規定，對嗎？","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:54:29.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:54:38.623000+08:00","text":"敘薪規定的算法，就會是比照保護性社工敘薪的地板跟\n天花板 143.9 薪點，這個薪點的部分等一下請你們來做回應。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:54:38.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:54:46.967000+08:00","text":"當然我知道司長剛剛有說，工作的\n專業性質還有危險性，高度也不一樣，等一下也再請司長說明。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:54:47.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:54:55.191000+08:00","text":"督導會希望以原薪及晉點兩階\n取代督導加給，這個部分也想請問教育部的看法。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:54:55.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:55:15.842000+08:00","text":"接下來就是督導回任專輔人員會採計年資，這個部分我覺得長年以來都沒有改變，希望這次\n有機會改變；還有就是採計過去專業工作年資從地板算起，像是專輔人員，從 A 縣市的學輔諮\n中心到 B 縣市的學輔諮中心，年資過去到底有沒有加上去？","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:55:16.263000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:55:17.944000+08:00","text":"未來修法後可不可以加上去？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:55:18.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:55:48.765000+08:00","text":"再來就是心理師從 7 等 2 階起薪，但心理師的部分，他們每一個只要是考試合格的心理師，\n都是具有碩士學位，這件事情我覺得他們必須要被考慮到 7 等 2 階中，目前在職的專輔人員跟\n著調高薪等這個部分我們也很好奇有沒有機會做到，以上，謝謝。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:55:51.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:56:16.885000+08:00","text":"教育部，根據剛剛委員的說法，大家都極力要爭取，然後我知道，就是大家經歷了非常多的\n過程，有沒有機會可以給予更完善的協助，就是根據各委員所提出的附帶決議內容，因為我們\n目前的附帶決議總共有 9 份，我們希望不用一一來做處理，而是能夠將其納為一個最完整的版\n本，然後做這樣一個處理，否則處理不完。","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:56:19.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:56:23.214000+08:00","text":"剛剛培瑜委員跟范雲委員的想法，請司長。","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:56:23.214000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:56:48.119000+08:00","text":"首先要說明的是，委員所提專輔人員跟督導的敘薪起點跟天花板，我們現在做的方向\n幾乎跟大家的提議是一致的，而且我們幾乎都已經對應到保護性社工的狀況了，但我們不太可\n能再超過他，這是第一個我要先說明的。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:56:48.119000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:57:27.751000+08:00","text":"第二個，剛剛提到有關 32 薪點的問題，那個部分是因\n為民間團體會有很多承攬社會福利的工作，他們也必須要聘請社工，但是因為民間團體跟衛福\n219\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄\n部所申請的，可能只是部分經費，有些部分是要自籌的，所以他們基本上是用比較低的薪水去\n聘這些社工員，而他們大部分都是沒有證照的，我想衛福部是基於希望他們聘具有證照的社工\n師，所以加給 32 個薪點的補助。","quality":0.148},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:57:27.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:58:06.825000+08:00","text":"先說明，這 32 個薪點的補助，後來衛福部也刪除了，他直接\n用 4,000 塊，但還是要說清楚，那個是衛福部給民間團體的，希望他們聘的，不要只是聘社工員\n，而是要能夠到社工師，所補助給民間團體，希望減輕民間團體的負擔，並願意聘有證照的人\n，那個 4,000 塊並不是幫他們加薪的概念，因為我們學校的專業輔導人員，從頭到尾就是一定要\n具有專業證照的情況之下，其實沒有那個空間再去加那 4,000 塊，在討論過程當中這個部分有跟\n人總、主總、衛福部反覆討論，這個部分是完全沒有人贊同的，所以這個是有困難的。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:58:09.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:58:15.836000+08:00","text":"真的，我們唯一能努力的但還沒有處理的折合率，那塊也是大家還有不同意見，就是新的折\n合率。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T15:58:15.836000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:58:18.300000+08:00","text":"過去年資這一塊呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳司長林輝","start":"2024-11-07T15:58:18.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:58:22.407000+08:00","text":"本來就可以採計，他當督導回來之後，督導年資也算在專輔人員……採計。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:58:24.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:58:54.395000+08:00","text":"還是一句話，司長、次長還有部長，我真的還是覺得，今天為什麼說這是重中之重，因為如\n果這次還是沒有辦法讓專輔人員有感，畢竟這個薪資問題是非常現實的，總不能每次都要他去\n做功德，我知道大家很努力了，但是剛開始的時候，因為有人認為要法制化，但現在我們大家\n退縮了，覺得不太可能法制化，因為可能在薪資的部分，你完全沒有辦法來做一個迴避。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:58:54.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:59:10.564000+08:00","text":"但是\n我真的還是要強調，很多人都強調以 7 等 2 階來做起薪，然後晉敘薪點最高是到 8 等 7 階，這\n很多委員特別會去提到，為什麼我們要特別提到？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:59:10.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T15:59:15.827000+08:00","text":"因為現在心理師及有碩士學位的社工師都用 6\n等 4 階來聘，真的是太低了啦！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:59:15.827000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:59:37.509000+08:00","text":"所以你看委員大家都在大聲疾呼，不是只有我，我想在場的每\n個委員都看到有這樣一個問題。","quality":0.105},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:59:37.509000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T15:59:59.191000+08:00","text":"所以當初的起薪很低，本身就是一個錯誤，而且這次修法，我覺得最主要是補破網，大家不\n要認為這是一個功德，我真的覺得，這根本就把人家過去應得的，這次一次把它補回來，所以\n我覺得到目前為止，如果只是到剛剛司長所提到的附帶決議這樣一個層面的話，我還是要特別\n提到，你看有關於督導的部分，你說還要受限於專輔人力的天花板，這個說起來還真的是說不\n過去，我真的這樣覺得，唉！","quality":0.031},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T15:59:59.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:00:20.953000+08:00","text":"每次講到這個地方……\n到目前為止，不管是怎麼樣，大家都已經做這麼多的努力了，但是我還是要強調，這是希望\n給過去長期這麼辛苦、在第一線的工作者一個最基本的交代，千萬不要認為我們這樣的爭取好\n像為他們做了多少的事情，過去真的給太低了，講到這邊我就非常的感慨。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:00:22.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:00:38.859000+08:00","text":"第四條附帶決議的\n部分，我也覺得，如果我們再堅持下去，然後包括你們剛剛所提到的，如果人總等等各方面都\n沒有辦法在經費上、在這個層面上有所調整，就會卡關在這裡。","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:00:39.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:00:43.341000+08:00","text":"教育部剛剛也特別提出了意見\n，就是針對我們所提的附帶決議。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:00:43.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:00:58.598000+08:00","text":"各位委員，最後時間你們就稍微看一下，如果覺得可以，我們就在這個部分，以目前來說，\n就是用這個方式來做，然後期望在未來當中，能夠讓他們可以持續的再做更合理的調整啦！","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:00:58.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:00:58.738000+08:00","text":"各\n位委員覺得呢？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:00:58.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:00:59.179000+08:00","text":"我是非常不滿意啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:00:59.179000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:01:02.288000+08:00","text":"但是你如果要讓它再繼續下去的話，我們也只是耗在這個\n地方啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:01:02.288000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:01:05.397000+08:00","text":"220\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T16:01:05.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:01:06.098000+08:00","text":"主席，我們可不可以休息 5分鐘再繼續？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T16:01:06.098000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:02:06.628200+08:00","text":"因為我們已經開到 4點 1分了，休息 5分鐘，\n我們再確認、比對一下，因為這跟我的版本長相不大一樣，我們最後要比對一下。","quality":0.255},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:02:06.628200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:03:07.158400+08:00","text":"好，比對一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:03:07.158400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:04:07.688600+08:00","text":"還有如果可以的話，因為附帶決議很重要，而我們有 9個不同的版本，我們\n是不是改用一張來做一個附帶決議？","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:04:07.688600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:05:08.218800+08:00","text":"把該加的都放進去的，休息 5分鐘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:05:08.218800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:06:08.749000+08:00","text":"休息（16時 1 分）\n繼續開會（16時 6分）","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:06:08.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:06:08.969000+08:00","text":"沒有啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:06:10.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:06:33.041000+08:00","text":"我剛剛看了上次的附帶決議，發現當中大家還是認為薪點的折合率應該到 143.9，\n這個算起來是 1,500，然後加上你剛剛所提到第二項的 2,000，就是 3,500，說實在的、務實一點\n，這才有感啦！","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T16:06:33.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:06:38.703000+08:00","text":"督導的還提了兩階……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:06:39.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:06:42.985000+08:00","text":"督導也要專業到一個程度，才有辦法當督導啊！","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:06:42.985000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:06:43.225000+08:00","text":"沒有啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:06:43.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:06:52.070000+08:00","text":"我個人覺得，當初我們所提出來的\n東西，還是希望折合率能夠提高到 143.9，我覺得這個東西沒有辦法再努力嗎？","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:06:52.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:06:55.957000+08:00","text":"我們也是花了這\n麼久的時間啊！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:06:56.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:06:57.520000+08:00","text":"就是 143.9，這樣才可以到 1,500。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:07:05.087000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:07:23.921000+08:00","text":"關於那個部分，最主要是你做合理的調整，但是你並沒有很明確，像第二條就非常明確的告\n訴我們，你現在是要做這樣的處理，只是說未來做合理的調整，然後這個部分，說實在的，這\n個很快就會讓人亂掉，你知道嗎？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:07:28.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:07:33.077000+08:00","text":"所以有沒有辦法就 143.9 的部分，請教育部再多努力一下？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:07:34.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:07:50.562000+08:00","text":"我\n知道你剛才講得很明白，督導就多 4,000；一般的輔導是 2,000，但是薪點的折合率如果能夠到\n143.9 的話，每個月可以有 1,500,，再加那個 2,000 就有 3,500，一個月有 3,500，所以問題在哪\n裡？","quality":0.746},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:07:50.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:07:50.743000+08:00","text":"我們現在是要找誰來？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T16:07:58.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:08:11.481000+08:00","text":"之前我們跟人總、主總、衛福部大家都討論過，包含保護性社工基本上他個案的部分\n相對來講，工作性質還是有差異啦！","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T16:08:12.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:08:20.665000+08:00","text":"雖然工作性質相近、職責相當，但基本上還是有些差異，\n所以我們把地板跟天花板的部分都拉得跟保護性社工都是一樣的。","quality":0.68},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:08:21.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:08:22.842000+08:00","text":"我們再休息 5分鐘。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:08:22.842000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:08:27.941500+08:00","text":"休息（16時 8 分）\n繼續開會（16時 10分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T16:08:27.941500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:08:33.041000+08:00","text":"我們辦公室本來有一個附帶決議，可是跟你們現在的文字是不大一樣的，反正我的目標\n是希望爭取，學士級的就是 6 等 3 階，天花板是 8 等 5 階；碩士級的天花板是 8 等 7 階，地板\n是 7 等 2 階；督導是 9 等 6 階，地板是 7 等 2 階；然後折合率是 140.3，你們現在提出來是這樣\n嗎？","quality":0.031},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T16:08:33.041000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:08:38.140500+08:00","text":"是，跟我們現在提的都一致……","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T16:08:38.140500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:08:43.240000+08:00","text":"你們現在提出來是這樣嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T16:08:43.240000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:08:48.339500+08:00","text":"都一樣……","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T16:08:48.339500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:08:53.439000+08:00","text":"因為跟我們辦公室的寫法是不一樣的，有對過嗎？有！有！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:08:53.439000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:08:58.538500+08:00","text":"221\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T16:08:58.538500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:09:03.638000+08:00","text":"因為這個寫法，真的是非常的複雜，所以你們確定可以做到現在這樣？","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T16:09:03.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:11:11.620000+08:00","text":"我剛剛提到的另\n外一個，就是專業證照加給的部分，就是沒有辦法了嗎？","quality":0.724},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T16:11:17.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:11:22.464000+08:00","text":"就是跟保護性社工執業執照加給 32 薪\n點的部分呢？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T16:11:22.464000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:11:31.680000+08:00","text":"好，因為我剛剛在問……對。","quality":0.222},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:11:31.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:11:36.604000+08:00","text":"剛剛司長跟次長有特別提到保護性社工明年 1月會……","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T16:11:36.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:11:43.628000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，是所有的，明年本來就配合軍公教調 3%，所以基本上折合率就會跟著\n調啊！","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T16:11:44.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:11:45.429000+08:00","text":"如果以現在的 143.9 乘以 1.03。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T16:11:45.429000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:11:46.429000+08:00","text":"你再說一次！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T16:11:45.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:11:46.010000+08:00","text":"你說現在是多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T16:11:46.010000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:11:56.316500+08:00","text":"現在是多少？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T16:11:56.316500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:12:06.623000+08:00","text":"現在是 140.3，我們現在是 140.3，他們的保護性社工是 143.9。","quality":0.05},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:12:06.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:12:13.187000+08:00","text":"我覺得我被「研議合理調整」的「研議」兩個字卡住，我只要看到「研議」兩個字……","quality":0.759},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T16:12:15.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:12:21.092000+08:00","text":"包含那個薪資調整的部分，並不是教育部直接單獨就可以做決定……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T16:12:21.092000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:12:22.092000+08:00","text":"所以我們必須跟人總……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:12:21.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:12:34.622000+08:00","text":"這就是我剛特別看到的，我可以同意你折合率不要寫 143.9，因為就是配合這個，可是要研\n議合理調整，當你寫「研議」的時候表示你只是在「研」啊！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:12:35.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:12:35.663000+08:00","text":"在「議」啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:12:35.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:12:37.564000+08:00","text":"但是你可能不執行\n啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:12:38.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:12:38.845000+08:00","text":"所以可不可以給我一個更好的動詞？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:12:43.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:12:47.016000+08:00","text":"各位，我們站在同一條線上，三位同仁，到最後了…\n…","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T16:12:47.016000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:12:54.256800+08:00","text":"如果委員要的話，就把「，研議」這三個字拿掉，反正前面有「應考量其工作職責…\n…」，然後接「合理調整」。","quality":0.135},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T16:12:54.256800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:13:01.497600+08:00","text":"也一樣啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T16:13:01.497600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:13:08.738400+08:00","text":"只是文字而已。不行！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:13:08.738400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:13:15.979200+08:00","text":"這個看起來很卡！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:13:15.979200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:13:23.220000+08:00","text":"好，各位，我們聽一下，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:13:23.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:14:06.445000+08:00","text":"第一個，范雲委員之前的那個附\n帶決議也是 9 等 6 階，跟我們都是一樣的，這個部分我想問題不大；第二個，我們考慮到薪點\n的問題，所以修正為「二、考量專輔人員在校園主責處遇性輔導之專業與複雜性，並因應少年\n事件處理法修法後之曝險與偏差行為、校園暴力事件行為人輔導之挑戰性，專輔人員之薪點折\n合率，應考量其工作職責，參酌社會安全網保護性社工之薪點折合率做合理調整。","quality":0.452},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:14:06.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:14:07.026000+08:00","text":"」我講白話\n一點，每個月還可以多個 1,500 塊。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T16:14:16.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:14:35.593000+08:00","text":"雖然文字上是這樣調整，我們會同意文字上這樣的調整，但是實際上這樣的調整，我\n們還是要循那個程序，因為最後調整的部分，還是要報到行政院，所以之前的部分，教育部會\n跟相關部會包含人總跟主總去做討論，討論完以後，我們報到行政院，由行政院他們再去做一\n個審酌。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:14:35.593000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:14:42.822667+08:00","text":"因為你剛剛告訴我，針對前面的部分都信誓旦旦地說，不管是調到 9等 6階，很顯然地讓大\n222\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄\n家覺得說這是一個百分之百可以確定的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T16:14:42.822667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:14:50.052333+08:00","text":"這個部分目前我們跟主總跟人總談過了……","quality":0.059},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:14:50.052333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:14:57.282000+08:00","text":"但是在第二個部分裡面，有關於薪點折合率做合理的調整，這點還沒談過，所以還有待討論\n？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T16:14:57.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:15:04.384000+08:00","text":"有談，但是當時談的時候，認為保護性社工工作職責的部分，跟我們學校的部分還是\n有些差距。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:15:05.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:15:09.966000+08:00","text":"所以這一點，即使我做文字的調整，但是會不會真正落實到這個部分……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T16:15:10.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:15:11.686000+08:00","text":"我們還是要去爭取。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T16:15:11.686000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:15:16.195000+08:00","text":"這個我們有問過他們……","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T16:15:16.195000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:15:20.704000+08:00","text":"那個風險比較上會更高。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T16:15:20.704000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:15:25.213000+08:00","text":"現在在職的學輔諮中心人員，在我們新制之後的調整……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:15:25.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:15:29.434000+08:00","text":"那我們現在是不是只能賦予教育部好好的……是啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:15:30.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:15:39.177000+08:00","text":"因為我們現在做任何的規定，之後也還是要到人總、主總那邊去做處理。","quality":0.759},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T16:15:39.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:15:41.157000+08:00","text":"後面的部分還必須要走行政程序。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:15:41.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:15:46.358000+08:00","text":"會不會處理老半天，到時候程序告訴我說，因為經費考量，不予通過？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T16:15:46.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:15:51.340000+08:00","text":"至少剛剛講的第二段是目前已經談的結果，基本上是有共識的。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"陳委員培瑜","start":"2024-11-07T16:15:53.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:15:54.097000+08:00","text":"你說第二個點嗎？","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:15:54.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:16:16.216000+08:00","text":"是，就是「做研議」，意思是說，如果他們同意的話，就是 2,000 塊再加 1,500 塊，因為\n143.9 算起來就差不多是 1,500 塊，差不多每個月就是 3,500，我們講白話一點，應該就是這樣子\n的處理，但是就這個部分，教育部認為這塊他們是可以的，是目前為止他們可以爭取到最大的\n程度，但是最後的拍板定案，還是要回到我們行政院的一些流程、程序，好不好？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:16:16.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:16:16.376000+08:00","text":"可以了嗎？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T16:16:16.376000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:16:20.888000+08:00","text":"可以啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T16:16:20.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:16:53.487000+08:00","text":"主要就是現在聘用率只有 84%，然後離職的人又非常多，我們當然還是希望\n可以爭取到更高，包含我剛剛講到的，跟保護性社工的這個部分，當然你們的理由是其實兩者\n風險不大一樣，這也涉及到政府整體的規劃，我們現在也沒有辦法去幫保護性社工爭取更多錢\n，因為那是衛福部的部分，所以就是看大家是否覺得現在先這樣往前走，還是要繼續爭取……","quality":0.888},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T16:16:55.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:17:01.454000+08:00","text":"我們精神跟召委同在，而且也已經一直在溝通跟爭取，也開了非常多次會了。","quality":0.71},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:17:03.175000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:17:26.100000+08:00","text":"對，我們大家已經做到這個部分，但我們即使爭取再多，然後條文也寫了這麼多，到最後它\n還是要根據行政院的一些程序，所以搞不好我們講得很 high，到最後全部都告訴我們沒有辦法\n，所以我們就用一個最合理的方式，是不是委員所有的附帶決議，我們第四條的附帶決議就是\n以這張為基礎點，其他的 9 項就不用了，好不好？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:17:26.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:17:27.880000+08:00","text":"這樣會比較單純一點，因為都差不多，他們\n223\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄\n都考量過。","quality":0.389},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-07T16:17:28.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:17:29.861000+08:00","text":"就折衷，大家就簽字在上面。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-07T16:17:30.541000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:17:31.501000+08:00","text":"但教育部不是把壞人丟給行政院做吧？","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"林次長騰蛟","start":"2024-11-07T16:17:31.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:17:44.744000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告一下，這個附帶決議裡面的相關內容，事實上，我這邊大概就已經跟行政\n院開過一次會議了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-07T16:17:44.744000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:17:57.987000+08:00","text":"我們只是希望不要到最後，即你現在雖沒有 say no，但是到最後是行政院 say no，好\n像壞人是給行政院做，所以這要確定一下，因為我們大家都希望能夠往前推進，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.041},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:17:57.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:18:07.231000+08:00","text":"最後，各位委員，剛剛議事人員提醒我了，我們因為做了一些修正，所以請大家看第\n三條，第三條因為跟第四條是連動的，請各位看一下，第三條最後一項修正為「少年矯正學校\n得不適用第四條第二項至第五項……」，原本是寫「第四項」，因為我們剛剛有一些條文做了\n一些處理，所以現在應該是改成「第五項」，好不好？","quality":0.407},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:18:07.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:18:07.871000+08:00","text":"這是連動的，小事！","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:18:07.871000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:18:09.467000+08:00","text":"但我們還是要做這\n樣一個處理。","quality":0.154},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-07T16:18:09.467000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:18:11.063000+08:00","text":"沒有問題！","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T16:18:11.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:18:12.445000+08:00","text":"好，我還有一個附帶決議，跟學生培力比較有關的，跟薪水無關的。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T16:18:12.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:18:19.252000+08:00","text":"上次就有了，第四條。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:18:19.252000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:18:26.059000+08:00","text":"剛剛薪點的部分大家都 OK了，那是最重要的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:18:26.059000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:18:32.866000+08:00","text":"范委員提的，我們拿出來看一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T16:18:32.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:19:44.625000+08:00","text":"滿單純的，主要就是希望教育部 3個月內研擬加強學生求助及轉介資訊的宣傳，能夠同\n儕培力、陪伴者培力等等，因為現在學生的心理健康問題真的越來越嚴重，包含學生的同儕還\n有重要他人，譬如說伴侶，尤其是大學生，對於相關輔導資源有特別需求，可能會因為不是本\n人就沒有受到協助，或是不了解如何引導有需要的學生尋求協助，或是如何陪伴，這是學生團\n體來跟我陳情的，希望能夠讓教育部加強宣傳學生的求助及轉介資訊，我是覺得合理，本來教\n育就應該做到，再加強，好嗎？","quality":0.827},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:19:44.625000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:19:45.845333+08:00","text":"可以，遵照辦理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:19:45.845333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:19:47.065667+08:00","text":"學生輔導法的部分，還有沒有其他意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-07T16:19:47.065667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:19:48.286000+08:00","text":"謝謝各位，今天我們就作成以下","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"的決議：\n協商結論","start":"2024-11-07T16:19:48.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:20:15.476000+08:00","text":"原審查會通過第三條、第四條、第五條、第十二條修正通過；第十條、第十一條\n，均照行政院提案通過；第十七條維持現行條文；增訂第七條之一及增訂第十七條之一，不予\n增訂；通過附帶決議 17項，其餘均照審查會審查結果通過，檢附立法說明一份。","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"的決議：\n協商結論","start":"2024-11-07T16:20:16.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:20:21.879000+08:00","text":"請各位簽字，謝謝大家，我們學生輔導法協商完畢，謝謝大家。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T16:20:52.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-07T16:20:52.497000+08:00","text":"辛苦了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-11-07T16:20:52.997000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-07T16:20:58.425571+08:00","text":"散會（16時 20 分）\n224\n立法院公報 第 113卷 第 97期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0.053}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}