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看一下我powerpoint整理出來的數字你看喔 理賠率這三年當中以2021、22、23 理賠率不過是1.94%、6%你總totally的這個保險基金從第一年的267億到第三年的300多億來看"},{"start":182.896,"end":202.961,"text":"理賠率都沒有超過這個10%那以國泰這個產險的這個巴勒的保險來看的話設定的最大的陣風要十幾以上要連續五天那以照目前我算一算以照這個條件來看造成全國現有的巴勒的投保率不到1%"},{"start":206.736,"end":221.129,"text":"我查到一百多元就農民反應過起來是這樣子這是第一個啦你要繳的一兩萬的這個保費來說然後等到那個大颱風大豪雨的時候那時期就大概是中台啦大家就認為不划算還有一個我選區裡頭的大內的部分"},{"start":226.052,"end":243.257,"text":"你搭建一個往事的部分 起碼要花兩百萬即便你有補助 夯不啷噹你至少要出個一百你一分地 賠起來不到一千元賠起來不到一千元 你知道部長 木瓜的投保件數有幾件嗎 你知道嗎"},{"start":244.538,"end":266.454,"text":"六件所以說 你看 八六不到一趴 那木瓜才六件這就是 你已經弄了四年多了喔 原因在哪裡第一個就是好與成為常態 理賠的門檻過高第二個就是理賠的金額太少 保險報酬率太低"},{"start":267.813,"end":292.363,"text":"那我這樣再算一算部長這個保單的真正需要設計的問題是在這邊過往我們只要去我們去要求拜託看起來好像拜託公股的一些慘險公司或私人的慘險公司何嘗你們來拜託人他們都配合政策那你怎麼不要求他來兌換這個社會責任呢你去看喔300多億當中喔"},{"start":293.163,"end":310.357,"text":"五十幾%的覆蓋率 超過三成以上是那個政策型的保險有其他的部分是屬於給私人的保險他們不單是三百多億當中呢一年當中就有超過一百億當中丟入這個產險公司裡頭而非農業系統這種情況底下 你賠率這麼低"},{"start":312.731,"end":335.601,"text":"不然是他們暴利啊我先跟他們報一下您這邊的算法可能有一點出入第一個就是說我們的理賠率應該是保費的收入當分母而不是保險的金額當分母是保費的收入當分母除以分子是理賠金額那大概多少那樣子我們算出來商業型的保險本身在113年它的理賠率是47"},{"start":337.021,"end":362.55,"text":"那如果47啊那一個合理的理賠率應該是在70到80因為他有成本嘛所以他還是偏低沒錯所以我們有現在有在設計就是說當他前一年度的理賠率比較低的時候我們就會降低保費來做處理因應啊大概是這樣子的方式如果是這樣子的話那為什麼那個投保的那個件數會那麼低呢"},{"start":363.31,"end":373.696,"text":"沒有 如果沒有那麼離譜的話你把你相關的理賠率啦 回後給本席一份我覺得重點的部分是要告知那個部長這個保單的設計是關鍵啦不是在保費的補貼"},{"start":378.459,"end":399.151,"text":"不是關鍵啊所以那個整個保單的設計的部分的這個商業型的保險是目前外界最詬病的地方除了農產品之外部長我趁這個機會再提醒你一下就是說呢漁產的部分的保單的這個投保起伏也是過大"},{"start":400.131,"end":419.409,"text":"譬如講這個以私募以來說他之前如果理賠有出現的話 有理賠的話那下一年度的投保率就會增加可是呢 你像牡蠣啦 文革啦像我的選區當中七股這邊都有基本上到目前為止也都還不行"},{"start":421.257,"end":450.029,"text":"還沒有納入捏還在等待保單捏我要跟市長報告您講得非常重要就是保單的內容跟它的品質才是重點對啊然後像牡蠣來講因為它本身這幾年來它發生天然災害的風險變高了以後它的保費設計就是說我可以開辦這個保單但是它那個保費會高得離譜因為它的資料的計算的時間點很短過去我們並沒有這個資料"},{"start":451.289,"end":472.681,"text":"那這幾年的比較長的時間平均值還可以做平均值但之前我們並沒有一些比較明確的數據所以換句話說在現有的數據裡面他去算那個風險的時候他的風險非常高所以他的保費變成非常高那漁民一定沒辦法接受的所以我們我們現在就是說看看有沒有有沒有辦法設計出一些"},{"start":473.735,"end":486.42,"text":"比較改良式的一些一些保單的內容包括就是說你在特定的情況之下去做處理那如果說超過一定的風險的時候政府的吸收會高一點"},{"start":489.461,"end":509.753,"text":"我們以後不能補那些也很奇怪你回去最快也要一顆這個我們一直在檢討另外還有包括那個柚子的部分我再直接講重點好了那個你柚子的部分一般傳統人壽的保單如果項目越多保費會越低可是面積越大保費會越高以照目前為止他的計算的方式要立即落狗"},{"start":510.433,"end":524.781,"text":"但是颱風來所造成的這些東西延遲性的一個損傷大概都沒有納入啦那現階段的類似這種東西你只適用一個粒子如果延遲性損傷沒有保障的話那就是困難啦對啊 但是我給你們報告齁"},{"start":526.002,"end":543.964,"text":"我一直希望說第一個就是如果同一個農民他每年都有投保的時候我希望他保費能夠下降就是有折扣這樣能夠鼓勵第二個就是你投保的面積越大應該你的保費應該也要有折扣這樣的話才會有誘因部長時間到我也不要耽誤後面會員的時間"},{"start":545.626,"end":574.339,"text":"只是要求一件事情四年多了啦 該檢討的啦我特別要求是商業型的這個部分啦或者是你政策型的要多一些品項也OK啦做一個整體的檢討麻煩你一個月的時候給本席一份好 可以對啊 你要如果改進現在這種既有的方式剛才本席所提出的這些問題去年一整年我們就在檢討每一張對 但我要求你啊所以你既然有檢討那你一個月拿出來應該是沒有什麼問題啊我們會提供 好一個月內喔 你把所有資料給我好 謝謝"},{"start":575.28,"end":577.25,"text":"好 謝謝現在請陳廷飛委員做詢答"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":511,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（10時46分）謝謝主席，有請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：部長好。我想經濟委員會召委很用心排這個題目，我認為非常好，我們確實要去思考現在農業保險這幾年上路之後需要檢討的問題。可是在這同時，相關法案修改最近都紛紛出爐，包括我之前提的農民退休金儲金條例第七條的修正案，還有包括農民保險排富條款的部分，也請部長跟行政院的溝通能夠加速進行，這是第一點提醒。","第二點，今天在野黨所提拉掉中央補助的上限，我覺得有可能會排擠到剛剛我所提的那兩項福利預算的問題，因為預算都綁在一起，這是第一個。第二個，補助的部分剛剛你也說明很清楚，可能到75%，如果到75%的情況，我個人算起來目前農業保險覆蓋率大概53.72%，但是實質上，如果扣除掉強制納保的豬隻、水稻等等，覆蓋率不過是20%。"],["陳部長駿季：20.7%。"],["郭委員國文：才20%左右而已，所以已經補助到75%，覆蓋率還只有20%，也就代表補助不是關鍵，保單的設計才是問題。保單設計的問題就是我們今天要好好來探討的問題。","有關保單的設計：第一個，我看到的結果是，農民領不到，產險公司賺飽飽；第二個，是多項農產品是被遺漏的，沒有納入農業保障的範圍；第三個，現有保單難以滿足產區的需求。如果這樣來說，我們區分以目前政策型的保險或商業型的保險來看，我看起來政策型的保險之所以能夠運行順利，一來是分為收入型、一來分為死亡型，不論是收入型理賠參數容易量化，另外死亡型包括豬隻跟乳牛的，基本上也是容易量化，這些目前是比較OK的。可是我必須提醒部長，問題主要是出現在商業型的保險，這36種都是非強制的保險，真正需要檢討是這個部分，覆蓋率過低的元凶也是在這裡。主要有幾個問題，一來理賠的門檻不一致、過高；二來理賠金額過低。","部長，你看一下數字，除了聽幕僚講之外，也看一下我整理出來的數字。你看這三年理賠率，2021年理賠率不過是1.9%、2022年4%、2023年6%，總共的保險金額，從第一年（2021年）的267億到第三年（2023年）的三百多億來看，理賠率都沒有超過10%。以國泰產險的芭樂保險來看，設定的最大陣風達10級以上，或是連續5天累積降雨量達301mm才啟動理賠。照這個條件來看，造成全臺現有芭樂投保率不到1%，農民跟我反映的狀況是這樣，這是第一個，就是你要繳一、兩萬的保費，然後要等到大颱風、大豪雨的時候，風速10級大概是中颱，所以大家就認為不划算。","還有一個案例，我選區裡的大內，搭建一個網室起碼要花200萬，即便有補助，夯不啷噹算起來至少要出個100萬，但換算起來1分地理賠不到1,000元。部長，你知道木瓜的投保件數有幾件嗎？就只有6件。芭樂投保率不到1%、木瓜也才只有6件，政策已經弄了四年多了，原因在哪裡？第一個就是豪雨成為常態，理賠的門檻過高；第二個，理賠的金額太少，保險報酬率太低。部長，保單需要設計的問題在這邊。","過往我們只要去要求、拜託……看起來好像拜託公股的一些產險公司或私人的產險公司，他們就說都配合政策，那你怎麼不要求他善盡社會責任呢？你去看，保險金額三百多億當中，50%覆蓋率超過三成以上是政策型的保險，其他的才是屬於私人的保險，一年三百多億當中就有超過100億丟入產險公司裡頭，而非農業系統，這種情況底下，理賠率這麼低，就變成他們的暴利啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我先跟委員報告，您的算法可能有一點出入。第一個，理賠率應該是保費的收入當分母，而不是保險的金額當分母，分子是理賠金額。"],["郭委員國文：那大概多少？"],["陳部長駿季：我們算出來，113年商業型保險的理賠率是47%，合理的保險理賠率應該是在70%到80%，因為還是有成本，所以它還是偏低，沒有錯。我們現在有在設計，當它前一年度理賠率比較低的時候，我們就會降低保費來處理、因應，大概是這樣的方式。"],["郭委員國文：如果是這樣的話，為什麼投保的件數會那麼低呢？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，投保件數……"],["郭委員國文：如果沒有那麼離譜，你把相關的理賠率會後給本席一份資料。"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["郭委員國文：我現在重點是要告知部長，保單的設計才是關鍵，保費的補貼不是關鍵，商業型保險的保單設計是目前外界最詬病的地方。","除了農產品之外，部長，我趁這個機會再提醒你一下，漁產的投保起伏也是過大。譬如以虱目魚來說，如果前一年有理賠，下一年度的投保率就會增加，可是像牡蠣、文蛤，在我的選區七股都有這些漁產，到目前為止也都沒有納入投保範圍，漁民都還在等待保單。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，您講到非常重要的一點，保單的內容跟品質才是重點，像牡蠣來講，因為這幾年來發生天然災害的風險變高了以後，它的保費設計就變成可以開辦這個保單，但是保費會高得離譜，因為資料計算的時間點很短，過去我們並沒有這個資料，這幾年才有這個資料……"],["郭委員國文：你要拉比較長的時間來做平均值才對啊！"],["陳部長駿季：但之前我們並沒有一些比較明確的數據，換句話說，以現有的數據算風險的時候，它的風險非常高，所以保費變成非常高，漁民一定沒辦法接受。我們現在看看有沒有辦法設計出比較改良式保單的內容，包括在特定的情況之下處理，如果超過一定風險的時候，政府的吸收會高一點。"],["郭委員國文：沒有啦！一個池子裡虱目魚可以保，文蛤卻不能保，也很奇怪，你回去想一下，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我知道，這個我們一直在檢討。"],["郭委員國文：另外，我直接講重點，一般傳統人壽的保單，如果項目越多，保費會越低；可是柚子的部分面積越大，保費卻越高。目前為止，它的理賠計算方式只計算立即落果，但颱風來所造成的都是延遲性的損傷，都沒有納入計算，現階段只適用於立即落果，延遲性的損傷沒有保障，那理賠就困難了，不是嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我一直希望，第一個、如果同一個農民每年都有投保，保費能夠下降，就是有折扣，這樣能夠鼓勵投保。第二個就是投保的面積越大，保費應該也要有折扣，這樣的話才會有誘因。"],["郭委員國文：部長，時間到了，我也不要耽誤後面委員的時間，我只要求一件事情，四年多了，該檢討了啦！我特別要求商業型這個部分啦！"],["陳部長駿季：我們其實已經在檢討了……"],["郭委員國文：或者是政策型的要多一些品項也OK，你整體檢討，麻煩一個月之後給本席一份資料，可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：好，可以。"],["郭委員國文：你要如何改進現在這種既有的方式，針對剛剛本席所提出的這些問題……"],["陳部長駿季：去年一整年我們就在檢討每一張保單……"],["郭委員國文：對，但是我要要求你，既然你最近有檢討，一個月拿出來應該是沒有什麼問題啊！"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝委員，我們一定會提供。"],["郭委員國文：好，一個月內，你把所有的資料給我。"],["陳部長駿季：可以，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請陳亭妃委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林德福","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","郭國文","陳亭妃","李坤城","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","陳超明","鍾佳濱","邱志偉","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","李彥秀","麥玉珍","黃珊珊","呂玉玲","林思銘","羅明才","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2025-06-11"],"gazette_id":"1145901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農業保險法第十條條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員邱\n若華等21人擬具「農業保險法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「農業保險法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1145901_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}