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那麼我在這個剛剛在準備質詢稿的過程當中呢就看到國台辦其實剛剛又發布了一個新聞他們再度強調他們會對於台灣的自通電軍祭出三項懲戒強調絕不輕重我想部長你應該很清楚知道在前陣子"},{"start":54.711,"end":60.115,"text":"中共他們這裡有發布針對我們臺灣的資通電軍的人員有20位發布了這個懸賞通告 懸賞公告那麼我想其實這一段時間裡面那麼可以知道就是大陸基本上他們針對我們現在資通電軍裡面的一些情資是掌握的"},{"start":79.571,"end":99.406,"text":"那麼不僅他們有立案從去年當時他們就有立案要偵查三個人那麼在今年的時候呢其實又陸陸續續公佈就是所謂的我們資通電軍的成員他們的肖像姓名以及甚至身份證字號那麼在這裡呢我想請問部長你有閱讀過"},{"start":103.87,"end":120.341,"text":"這個大陸的國家電腦病毒應急處理中心所發布的皮膚漢素的這份報告嗎?呃,是不是請中間來說明一下?好原好,呃,這邊跟你們報告,這個部分報告內容我們有看過"},{"start":121.471,"end":146.531,"text":"所以這個周社長您看過您看過這份報告在這個報告書當中所爐列的有關於資通電這個指揮部的相關的位置人員那麼以及這個這個首長他們基本上都有詳列身份的字號姓名以及這個相關的資訊就這個部分來說我們這份"},{"start":151.601,"end":152.745,"text":"裡面的資料是否屬實"},{"start":155.407,"end":183.309,"text":"我想在這個部分或許您方便作答的話您就答方便的話也無所謂我想我們在之前的委員都在過程當中已經說明了這個網路資料拼湊而來的我想我們沒有辦法來有任何進一步的評論那也跟委員做一個報告我們會按前工法相關的規定來建立這一個對於人員的相關的保護的機制好"},{"start":183.769,"end":205.954,"text":"那么在这份资料里面,因为它响展了有关于自通电军的指挥部等等的这些地点,那么还有就是我们现在的指挥官,在这份书里面有指挥官,这个参谋长,副参谋长等等,所以请问参谋长您看过这份报告书吗?"},{"start":207.052,"end":221.216,"text":"有看過,那這個資料目前所呈現的是舊的資料您知道您的大名也在裡面嗎?知道您有沒有感受到,就是說你會不會懷疑為什麼這份資料會洩漏出去?"},{"start":222.259,"end":248.072,"text":"對 就個人的研判是在相關的這個之前個人的臉書或是一般可能在同仁有可能退伍的求職網這些的資料您剛剛有提到譬如說像參謀長的部分 我覺得這個是一個公開的一個資訊 它並沒有因為有一些一定階層它是屬於公開的這個資訊 所以"},{"start":250.353,"end":276.165,"text":"可是公開資訊應該不包括身份證字號吧出生年月日我想這些資訊其實是鉅細靡遺我跟部長報告就是我看到這份報告書之後我其實心裡面很擔心因為我覺得我們的國軍電修之通電軍裡面的這些夥伴們不管是軍職或是約聘僱人員他們的資訊"},{"start":277.975,"end":299.581,"text":"是公開的如果說裡面有些資訊可能是老舊的或是可能根本不存在沒有關係但是假設這些裡面有相當高程度是屬實的更何況已經看到了蔡某長的您的個資都在裡面這真的讓我感到很驚訝的是我們這麼重要的這個"},{"start":301.863,"end":308.859,"text":"軍中的這樣的一個自動電軍的這個指揮部裡面怎麼可能會有這麼多的訊息會是外露"},{"start":310.745,"end":332.52,"text":"那我們也曉得其實從去年其實就有新聞有說當時國防部政風是讓情報員用本名申報財產當時也造成一些資料外洩那麼更早之前其實我們的健保資料也都有外洩那麼所以呢其實這些案子到目前為止都還沒有查到一個水落石出也不知道說這些資料從哪裡洩露的"},{"start":334.821,"end":353.891,"text":"所以有關於我們軍中人員的這個各自的保護本行是認為非常的重要那麼請問現在國防部對於相關的國防或情報資料尤其是對於人員各自外系有沒有什麼樣的防堵措施我想主要你們有沒有檢討"},{"start":355.214,"end":380.049,"text":"對我想我們外部各自的管控我們應該要繼續來加強那內部的這個黨制的稽查我們要加強然後相關的這個保護的機制我們也要來進行好吧我聽了部長講我覺得那都是感覺還蠻空的我現在就回到法治層面來看依照情報工作法裡面的規定那麼資通電軍指揮部看起來應該是屬於我們這邊講的情報機關是吧"},{"start":385.64,"end":409.216,"text":"所以我們是屬於適同情報機關適同情報機關因為在你們主管國家情報事項範圍內我現在問的比較general就是說是那麼在這個資通電軍指揮部裡面是不是所有的人員都是適同情報人員還是說你們中間也是只有少部分的人還是屬於我們情報工作法裡面所規範的情報人員應該是限於那個"},{"start":414.261,"end":442.471,"text":"包委員這個部分是限於這個從事網路相關工作的同仁所以並不是所有的同仁那麼但是呢大家接下來看情報協助人員其實也是受到情報工作法裡面的規範那麼在這次因為我們有看到其實在這份報告書裡面這個皮膚漢書的報告書裡面他們也有揭露一些支持這個我們自動電機指揮部裡面的相關的公司"},{"start":443.391,"end":471.787,"text":"机关那就现在的这些被被揭露的这些公司或是机关其实因为这也涉及到就是他们未来可能以后也很难在可能跟大陆做生意或者是说他们可能已经被威胁心生恐惧以后也不敢做国防部的生意了就是说有关于像这种长期支援支持国防部的这些公司"},{"start":472.849,"end":474.76,"text":"那麼我們有沒有一些什麼保護的措施"},{"start":475.902,"end":503.487,"text":"就除了我們講的人員之外來我們看一下這個下面這次在皮膚看素裡面的報告裡面講台灣自通電軍支撐單位的情況包含神通 金城 序聊 登峰數位科技以至於中山科學研究院都在他們這份報告書裡面已經揭露的說這些都是支持台灣自通電軍的"},{"start":505.668,"end":521.636,"text":"我想這是屬於公開招標的一個範圍跟你報告一下這個部分這些公司都是我們公開招標針對一般一般沒有敏感機敏性的這些範疇領域的這些作業的公司"},{"start":522.586,"end":550.749,"text":"是但是因為他們現在已經被列入在可能會被大陸懲治的對象那麼我想基本上我們當然是希望能夠全力的支持我們台灣的資通電機指揮部然後以及保護所有的工作同仁那以及可能這個支持資通電機指揮部的相關資訊系統設備公司可是呢其實他們現在可能所受到的"},{"start":552.51,"end":575.327,"text":"潛在的損失還不知道因為已經被點名了就像我們現在看到的這些人員不管他們是不是有這批人但是萬一真的事後又有很多的個資被洩漏出去那麼對於這些個資洩漏出去我們在現在情報工作法裡面有沒有對於這些人員的個資洩漏有給予他們一定的損失補償"},{"start":577.834,"end":591.807,"text":"跟委員報告我想您現在所提的都是中國對我們進行這樣的一個相關的心理戰來造成我們的一些希望來動搖我們的軍事時期我想我們還是會持續堅持這個"},{"start":594.269,"end":613.19,"text":"我們應該有的努力來確保國家安全您這樣子一直在我現在是說我希望這報告書裡面的都不是事實那我只是說從一個很基本的很general的角度來看這件事情"},{"start":614.031,"end":624.186,"text":"因為在我們情報工作法裡面其實它的規範基本上可以分兩階段一個是前端的風險管理一個是後端的危機處理但是我們看一下第24條的規定"},{"start":626.529,"end":644.234,"text":"在我們第二十四條的規定裡面萬一情報人員他的省的身份揭露或是在受工作有受傷失能死亡這裡面給予的撫恤的補償是指他們在境外發生這邊沒有涉及到就是說萬一他們的個資洩露"},{"start":645.373,"end":672.816,"text":"的情況之下 如果說我們剛剛講資通電軍指揮部裡面相關人員他們也是同事情報人員但他們現在的個資可能有被洩露他們的隱私受到侵害那麼在我們現行法裡面有沒有什麼機制是可以去保護他們的或是給予他們一定的損失補償因為很可能這些人以後找不到工作"},{"start":675.689,"end":682.194,"text":"就是在現行制度上面我想請問蔡某長你們過去有研究相關的人員的保護嗎"},{"start":683.576,"end":711.136,"text":"我想相關的這個國軍在從事相關的機敏業務的時候都會有這個他們應該要理解我們要做一個風險的一個管控跟管理這是應該的那至於委員提到的這個勤工法的相關規定它必須是要治受傷失能或死亡嗎而且要在境外現在我們的問題就是不管在境外或境內都必須要治受傷失能或死亡啊"},{"start":712.555,"end":728.937,"text":"對所以我就說這就是現行規定看起來沒有辦法涵蓋到如果在境內因為涉及到個資的洩漏然後影響到他的行動自由隱私權等這些問題我們現在的法律制度上面有沒有哪一塊是可以去"},{"start":730.069,"end":754.707,"text":"保護 或者是給予這些受到損害的情報人員 給他們一定的補償跟委員報告 我想這個個資的外洩所造成的情況也不是只有今天這宗電競這個案子所有國軍相關的 還有所有其他的人員都會有這樣子的一個狀況所以這個如果說你要認為要檢討的話 那應該要做通販性的檢討"},{"start":757.489,"end":768.139,"text":"那所以國防部過去一直都沒有針對這個部分做通盤性檢討嗎我想一般的如果說不涉及到情報工作的各自外線那可能他有另外一個比較簡單的處理方式可是這件事情很嚴重"},{"start":772.062,"end":800.332,"text":"因為它已經涉及到就是可能已經類似等同於情報業務情報工作的人員的各自外泄但是我們看起來我們現在沒有任何的法規可以處理然後更何況說我們現在講的情報協助情報工作人員它的範圍還只是限定在自然人但是不要忘記了我們現在看到很多的資通訊的設備公司等等都一一的被點名出來了"},{"start":802.059,"end":819.772,"text":"那他們所提供的服務所提供的這些會不會也是廣泛來說可能也是屬於協助情報工作那這些公司他們未來可能會受到的這個損失要由誰來承擔他們自己就吸收嗎"},{"start":823.015,"end":848.087,"text":"跟委員報告我想我們會依據情報公眾法的規定來採取一些身份隱匿跟掩護的相關措施那這個部分已經在建立應該就會盡快來完成來做這些相關的這個保護的隱匿跟掩護的這個機制好我最後再講一句話就是說我其實在看這份報告書的時候我真的是心裡面是真的非常擔心我們的這個"},{"start":852.237,"end":879.044,"text":"自通電軍指揮部裡面的這些人員們他們的安危那麼我本來也不願意相信說是裡面的可能一些內容是屬實的但是當我發現我們去看Google馬上Google這個相關的處所照片是一致的然後甚至今天也看到參謀長您的身份資料都在裡面對那我們國家到底給這些自通電軍弟兄們我們有沒有一個充足的保護"},{"start":880.646,"end":907.604,"text":"然後還有一些支援的公司也一一被點名出來那未來他們所受到的營業上這個相關的損失要由誰來來負負擔還是說這些公司他們就自行吸收了那最後呢因為剛剛部長講說你們有針對現在國軍的各自外卸有在進行延期了嗎或者是說我今天也希望就是國防部是不是可以兩個禮拜之內給我一份你們對於"},{"start":912.406,"end":931.151,"text":"這個確保這個國軍人員的各自外泄的防堵機制以及我剛剛講的針對這個在情報工作法裡面有關於這個情報人員的各自外泄到底是不是用情報工作法裡面的相關水質補償如果沒有的話未來你們要怎麼檢討要怎麼樣提出相關的補償機制可以請部長兩個禮拜之內給我一份報告嗎"},{"start":939.074,"end":944.961,"text":"我們再請鐘建軍再跟委員聯絡好不好好 那我希望就是兩個禮拜之內因為這個應該你們之前早就都有study的議題那請兩個禮拜之內給我相關的報告好 謝謝謝謝委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}