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雄選區的一些漁業建設我想謝謝王署長全程參與這部分每一項工程我都親自去看過都有急迫性跟必要性對移民的幫助也大"},{"start":45.66,"end":67.72,"text":"所以集中在延安、彌德跟嘉甸保溫是在歐來這都是養殖漁業專區所以這保溫大家都很重要先請教一下王署長您也都有陪我去看過每一項您都會提出寶貴的意見漁業署也都全力支持"},{"start":68.2,"end":95.643,"text":"那現在說我今天再利用這個質詢的機會再請部長能夠更了解署長很認真很用心每一項的建設工程我邀請他他都親身參與而且他都提出專業的意見所以這些高行是不是可以請他補充請農業部全力支持漁業署把這個九項這個工程依序把它完成我想以農業部來講一定會支持"},{"start":96.741,"end":124.587,"text":"然後現在就是牽涉到經費看夠不夠我會後面去看這個經費夠的話因為這裡可能有一些分年的嘛如果沒記錯好像署長說應該沒有問題啦對它有的是分年如果分年的話就比較沒問題啦如果同一年的話可能可能經費會不夠分年當然是它有它有這個比方說有年限有三年期或者是兩年期所以這個回去我想基本上我們會支持但是緊急必要的這個優先來做譬如說那個"},{"start":126.947,"end":136.21,"text":"LNG海水管線的擴充工程這部分尤其3.5那有共識那有討論過這個可以優先處理這個我們會來協助那這個謝謝署長署長請先回那第二個是關於保險這個我們天災救助未來有沒有可能做一些轉變天災救助如果轉型成這個免費的農業保險"},{"start":158.538,"end":180.935,"text":"我們也曾經考慮過就是逐步把天然災害救助轉為農業保險那水稻是一個先行的案例那它有一個前提就是原來天然災害可能過去三年過去五年平均的農損的金額要直接轉到那個保險基金來而不是 金費沒有到位的話未來如果理賠的話是沒有經費理賠的"},{"start":182.556,"end":197.027,"text":"我們從一個數據來對照我們的農業保險的這個保費的補助這個支出在整體補助的比重大概只有一趴啦這跟美國比較起來是天差地遠所以大家想說我們的農業安全網"},{"start":198.356,"end":213.442,"text":"它整個架構你這偏重於產品以及要素的補貼所以這部分反而整個農業保險政策在你們整體的施政裡面還不是相對重要的一個角色你要想面對"},{"start":214.623,"end":237.882,"text":"這個氣候變遷跟貿易自由化農業安全往下面的農業保險是非常重要所以要有前瞻性跟有韌性所以這部分是不是可以往這方面去思考吧天然救助的轉型成免費農業保險可行性品 你也先做一個可行性品對 我們可以先做看哪一些品項可以"},{"start":239.229,"end":258.362,"text":"由天然災害的保險轉到農業的保險這個我想我們可以來評估然後比較可行的我們也許可以現在示範這個部分是不是可以請三個月之內提出一個可行性評估你們初步的規劃一個月三個月三個月可以三個月做出一個比較詳細的評估報告你們以及未來的初步規劃繼續再請教部長還有我們署長"},{"start":267.788,"end":293.283,"text":"這個如果農保把強勢性的納保把它扣除事實上我們負保率啊 覆蓋率20.7現在20.7啦 是OK 我們數據沒有更新所以那整體的覆蓋率是五成多啦所以代表說你扣掉強勢性納保比如說水道 那個水道 那個住宿保險所以只要20點多那部分高風險 譬如說酒盤儀"},{"start":296.985,"end":310.17,"text":"平均才2.7而已?九板魚養殖的年期大概要5、6年如果霸王級的寒流好像2017年的時候造成整個石斑魚是大崩盤所以這個有保險制度你要針對比如說九板魚"},{"start":320.094,"end":338.093,"text":"芒果、木瓜、洋楓這個基本上是零頭保或者低頭保但是它是一個高災損只要發生天然氣候變遷或者造成氣候嚴重的傷害他們基本上沒有得到保險的cover"},{"start":338.974,"end":358.107,"text":"所以這部分你們有沒有怎麼樣去做調整把這些漁業長期處於低頭飽的狀態把它能夠有效提升我跟委員報告剛才就是扣掉強制性的話只有20.7%其中漁業的部分才2.7%是最直接的"},{"start":358.647,"end":381.934,"text":"那我們現在我初步的想法可能還要跟那個漁業署他們去討論喔我覺得比較高產值高風險的如果一旦出現他損失特別高的這個部分可能要另外拉出來去設計一套方法石斑魚就是嘛石斑魚高風險然後他是高度依賴外銷高風險的跟一般風險或者低風險的他的寶貝的設計設計應該是不一樣的啦你現狀來看石斑魚我要幫你報告"},{"start":388.016,"end":391.141,"text":"106我們推銷已經要幾年了7、8年了對不對現在投保面積不到100公頃全台中央面積2%以下"},{"start":400.526,"end":425.466,"text":"那這種狀況你要把那個高風險石斑魚高風險然後依賴外銷的這些產業把它納入農保的範圍您認為呢我想我們剛才說的我們在三個月一併評估天然災害一方面可能天然災害轉過來另外一方面就是像我剛才說的把這些用風險值去分高中低然後設計不同的一些保險的這些規範是好"},{"start":428.867,"end":442.418,"text":"按照這個脈絡繼續再請教您你們在這個設計農業保單的時候這個相關的這個你們的政策大概傾向於重視的你保單數量要怎麼成長 理賠的金額累計來評估做一個成效的評估"},{"start":445.27,"end":470.973,"text":"但是你要從需求面還有品項公平性來切入才是比較符合農民的期待所以保險制度應該是對小農跟非主力的產業作為有更多的保障但目前現狀是保障非常的薄弱所以你應該從風險程度跟災害頻率以及產業脆弱性的連動做一個補助的設計牡蠣有沒有保險"},{"start":473.827,"end":478.561,"text":"現在沒有 最主要是他的保費太高現在以他們保險工程算出來的那個保費太高啦"},{"start":479.342,"end":508.002,"text":"外藝術工你要有差異化差異化的補助條件不是這個花一條線就是它補助標準都一樣照這個天候所以這個部分不能有固定的補助比例應該用產業的特性這個品項的特性來做這個差異性的補助條件的設計以及它災損的頻率評估機制有些農產品它災損頻率很低有些是很高"},{"start":509.107,"end":526.699,"text":"因為傷害這個輕重只要一衝擊一來有些傷害很重有些傷害相對沒那麼重所以是不是能夠有差異化的這個補助條件設計我想非常認同委員所提到的差異化的補助包括它的自災的風險還有包括它的一個相關的災損的程度"},{"start":527.459,"end":538.788,"text":"那這個部分如果用加權的方式去處理的話應該可以設計出另外一個遊戲規則我覺得我們可以朝這方面來努力謝謝部長 我們繼續努力那另外這個國產羊肉"},{"start":542.216,"end":560.301,"text":"江山市這個有名就是江山羊肉,柏柳你有沒有吃過?我吃過那目前國產羊肉市占率是5%而已啦,但是它有季節性的消費傾向是多一梯牛肉肉比較好消,對不對?多一梯就比較不好消,現在的這個價格,國產羊這個拍賣行情"},{"start":567.216,"end":575.344,"text":"最近跌幅到180所以有時候到170幾跌幅到三成多每次一樣成本是2.3萬啊 二或兩萬三啊"},{"start":578.717,"end":603.982,"text":"你賣一支賠一支那針對這個部分農業部有沒有什麼相關的補救措施我們現在啟動了一個機制就是先有協助他們做宰殺凍存先做凍存做一個產期的調節啦後來你同時這樣繼續下去價格會越來越低所以有一些東西不一定要上市直接用凍存的方式去調節它上市的量"},{"start":604.562,"end":632.009,"text":"那這個部分我們現在已經在做相關的團體跟羊農有做過這個接觸對 已經有跟他們做討論他們知道說政府有在提供對 他們也接受這樣的一個方法他們也覺得這個方法是可以接受的好 最後一個問題啊我再花這個一分鐘來跟部長請教就是說台日米食的鏈結這個很重要但是需要一個制度性的長期合作的機制的那像日本釋出廚備米"},{"start":633.527,"end":648.917,"text":"阿對台灣的這個米出口會不會有這個比較屬於中長期的影響你們評估怎麼樣我們個人就是內部的一個評估齁就是我們其實每年稻米的外銷大概是平均大概3500日本啦3500噸左右那"},{"start":649.978,"end":678.426,"text":"今年會比較高有一部分原因是因為他們日本缺米但是我們長期來看我們不能依靠著他缺米才增加我們的銷售所以要建立一個供應鏈要長期的合作協定一定要有一個協議包括有在進行嗎有在進行而且我們像今年我們也邀請了他們很多大商社來這邊希望說能夠能夠定期的去企作或是直接跟我們這個政策是跟商社去談就好還是要通過農林水產省"},{"start":679.326,"end":708.137,"text":"沒有 我們透過商社直接去做長期通路他們政府有沒有 農林水產省有沒有真的總和關稅的品質現在就是商社給我們回報就是他打特定的族群的時候就算關稅外的那個金額他們吸收都還有賺頭他們就願意我們不要是因為只要缺名的時候我們這個數量增加對 就是這樣子常態性的合作 這很重要對 常態性的合作就是要通路 鏈結如果需要國會我們可以去拜訪他們的農林水產省"},{"start":708.777,"end":726.04,"text":"我們曾經談過啦 但是日本對米的那個額度配額跟我們一樣堅持啦就不讓步啦但是這個台日友好這個是最近幾年那個所以我們現在用銅鑼之間這樣我想他們對台灣會非常非常比較友善啦"},{"start":727.201,"end":728.102,"text":"我們現在請徐富奎委員做詢問"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1042,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（12時20分）謝謝主席，我請農業部陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["邱委員志偉：然後是漁業署王署長。"],["主席：請王署長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：部長辛苦了。上個月經濟委員會前往北高雄，考察我選區裡的漁業建設，謝謝王署長全程參與。這部分每一項工程我都親自去看過，都有急迫性跟必要性，對漁民的幫助也大。其中永安、彌陀和茄萣，還有部分在湖內，都是養殖漁業專區啦！所以這部分各樣工程都很重要。先請教一下王署長，您都陪我去看過喔？"],["王署長茂城：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：你對於每一項也都提出寶貴意見，而且漁業署全力支持，我今天只是再利用質詢的機會，請部長更了解。署長很認真、很用心，對於每一項建設工程，只要我邀請他，他都親身參與，而且提出專業的意見。對於這九項工程，是不是能夠請部長、請農業部全力支持漁業署，把這九項工程依序完成？"],["陳部長駿季：我想，以農業部的立場來講一定會支持，現在就是牽涉到經費夠不夠，我後續也會去看。如果經費夠的話，由於有些是分年的……"],["邱委員志偉：如果我沒記錯，署長好像說應該沒有問題啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對，有些是分年計畫，如果是分年計畫比較沒問題。如果是同一年，經費可能會不夠啦！"],["邱委員志偉：當然是有年限，比方說三年期或兩年期。"],["陳部長駿季：對啊！所以要回去看看。基本上我們會支持，但是……"],["邱委員志偉：如果是緊急、必要者，要優先來做。譬如說LNG海水管線的擴充工程這部分，尤其是3.5期，我們有共識、討論過嘛！這一項可以優先處理嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會協助。"],["邱委員志偉：好。謝謝署長，署長先請回。","第二，關於保險，天災救助未來有沒有可能做一些轉變？天災救助如果轉型成免費的農業保險，部長看法如何？"],["陳部長駿季：我們也曾經考慮過逐步把天然災害救助轉為農業保險，水稻是先行案例。它有一個前提，就是在原來天然災害救助下，過去三年、五年的平均農損金額要直接轉到保險基金，不然經費沒有到位的話，未來一旦要理賠是沒有經費可理賠的。"],["邱委員志偉：我們從一個數據來對照。農業保險的保費補助支出占整體補助的比重大概只有1%啦！跟美國比較起來是天差地遠，代表我們的農業安全網整體架構已經偏重產品以及要素的補貼，農業保險政策這部分在你們的整體施政裡面反而還不具有相對重要的角色。你要想想，面對氣候變遷跟貿易自由化，農業安全網下面的農業保險是非常重要的，所以要有前瞻性和韌性啦！所以是不是可以往這方面思考，把天然災害救助轉型成免費農業保險？先做可行性評估嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們可以先做，對於哪一些品項可以由天然災害救助轉到農業保險，我們可以評估，比較可行的也許可以現在試辦。"],["邱委員志偉：好，這部分可不可以在三個月之內提出可行性評估以及你們的初步規劃？"],["陳部長駿季：一個月喔？"],["邱委員志偉：三個月啦！"],["陳部長駿季：喔！三個月可以。"],["邱委員志偉：可以喔？好，三個月內做出比較詳細的評估報告以及未來的初步規劃。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：再繼續請教部長還有署長。農保如果把強制性納保扣除，事實上覆蓋率是在……"],["陳部長駿季：20.7%。"],["邱委員志偉：現在20.7%啦？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：OK，我的數據沒有更新。至於整體覆蓋率是在五成多，代表扣掉強制性納保，比方說水稻、豬隻保險之後，比例在百分之二十點多。部分高風險──譬如說石斑魚的寒害……"],["陳部長駿季：喔！魚類平均才2.7%而已。"],["邱委員志偉：例如石斑魚的養殖年期大概五、六年，如果遭遇霸王級寒流……"],["陳部長駿季：來一次就掛掉了。"],["邱委員志偉：有一次霸王級寒流好像發生在2017年，當時造成整體石斑魚價格大崩盤。所以保險制度要針對這一類農產品，比如說石斑魚、芒果、木瓜、養蜂，這些基本上是零投保或低投保，卻是高災損的，只要發生氣候變遷或氣候造成的嚴重傷害，他們基本上都沒有獲得保險的cover，這部分你們有沒有打算調整？對於這些農漁業長期處於低投保的狀態，怎麼有效提升？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，扣掉強制型的話，覆蓋率只有20.7%，其中漁業部分才2.7%，是最直接的。我們現在有初步的想法，可能還要跟漁業署討論，針對比較高產值、高風險、一旦出險損失就特別高的部分，可能要另外拉出來設計一套方法。"],["邱委員志偉：石斑魚就是嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：石斑魚高風險、又高度依賴外銷。"],["陳部長駿季：對。針對高風險、一般風險或低風險產品的保費設計應該是不一樣的啦！"],["邱委員志偉：你要把這些要素拉出來。","以現狀來看，我用石斑魚向你報告，你們從106年開始推動投保，到現在已經幾年啦？七、八年了，對吧？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：但現在投保面積還不到100公頃，占全臺總養殖面積2%以下。面對這種狀況，要把石斑魚這類高風險、依賴外銷的產業納入農保範圍，您認為呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我想如同剛才說的，我們在三個月內一併評估，一方面可能從天然災害救助轉過來，另一方面就誠如我剛才說的，把這些產業依照風險級距分出高、中、低，然後設計不同保險規範。"],["邱委員志偉：好。","我按照這個脈絡繼續請教您。你們在設計農業保單的時候，相關政策大概是傾向重視保單數量怎麼成長、以理賠金額累計來做成效評估，但是你們要從需求面還有品項公平性切入，才比較符合農民的期待。保險制度應該對小農跟非主力的產業作物有更多保障，問題是現狀保障非常薄弱，你們應該就風險程度、災害頻率與產業脆弱性的連動作補助的設計。比如說牡蠣有沒有保險？"],["陳部長駿季：現在沒有，最主要是因為保費太高，保險公司算出來的保費太高啦！"],["邱委員志偉：不！我的意思是要有差異化的補助條件，而不是劃一條線，補助標準都一樣，就是只按照天候評估。這部分不能用固定的補助比例，應該用產業特性、品項特性來做差異性補助條件的設計還有災損頻率的評估機制。有些農產品災損頻率很低，但是有些很高，也就是有傷害輕重之分，例如衝擊一來，有些傷害很重，有些傷害相對沒那麼重，所以是不是能有差異化的補助條件設計？"],["陳部長駿季：我非常認同委員提到的差異化補助，包括致災風險、也包括災損程度。這部分如果用加權的方式處理，應該可以設計出另外一個遊戲規則，我們可以朝這個方向來努力。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝部長，我們繼續努力。","另外，國產羊肉中，有名的就是岡山羊肉。部長，你吃過吧？"],["陳部長駿季：我吃過。"],["邱委員志偉：目前國產羊肉市占率四、五趴而已啦！但是有季節性的消費傾向，天冷時羊肉爐比較好賣，對不對？熱天就不好銷。以現在的價格，國產羊隻的拍賣行情最近跌破180元，有時候來到一百七十幾，跌幅到三成多。而每隻羊的成本是2.3萬元，也就是兩萬三啦！導致賣一隻賠一隻。針對這個現象，農業部有沒有什麼相關補救措施？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在啟動了一個機制，就是先協助他們宰殺凍存，也就是做產期的調節啦！不然繼續下去，價格會愈來愈低，所以有一些東西不一定要上市，而是直接以凍存方式調節上市的量，這部分我們現在已經在做了。"],["邱委員志偉：那你們有沒有跟相關團體、羊農接觸或討論過？"],["陳部長駿季：有，已經跟他們討論了。"],["邱委員志偉：他們知道政府有提供協助？"],["陳部長駿季：對，他們也接受這樣的方法，覺得這個方法是可以接受的。"],["邱委員志偉：好。","最後一個問題，我再花一分鐘向部長請教。臺日米食鏈結很重要，但是需要一項制度性的長期合作機制啦！現在日本釋出儲備米，對臺灣米的出口會不會有比較屬於中長期的影響，你們怎麼評估？"],["陳部長駿季：依照我們內部的評估，其實每年稻米外銷日本平均大概是3,500噸左右，今年會比較高，有部分原因是日本缺米。但長期來看，不能倚靠他們缺米增加我們的銷售，所以要建立供應鏈。"],["邱委員志偉：要有長期合作的協定。"],["陳部長駿季：對，一定要有協議，包括跟通路……"],["邱委員志偉：有在進行嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：有在進行，而且今年我們邀請了他們很多大商社來這邊，希望定期契作或直接跟我們買。"],["邱委員志偉：這個政策是跟商社談就好，還是要經過農林水產省？"],["陳部長駿季：我們透過商社直接做長期……"],["邱委員志偉：透過通路？"],["陳部長駿季：對，通路。"],["邱委員志偉：他們的政府、農林水產省有沒有針對總額、關稅、品質等做相關限制？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有。現在商社給我們的回報就是打特定族群的時候，就算關稅外的金額他們都吸收，但只要還有賺頭，他們就願意。"],["邱委員志偉：我們不要只在他們缺米的時候出口量才增加……"],["陳部長駿季：對，就是這樣。"],["邱委員志偉：常態性合作這點很重要。"],["陳部長駿季：對，常態性的合作就是要透過通路鏈結才能做。"],["邱委員志偉：如果需要國會，我們可以去拜訪他們的農林水產省。"],["陳部長駿季：我們曾經談過，但是日本對於米的額度、配額跟我們一樣堅持，就是不讓步啦！"],["邱委員志偉：喔！但是最近幾年臺日友好，不管是產業合作或民間交流……"],["陳部長駿季：對啦！所以我們現在就是用通路去鏈結。"],["邱委員志偉：我想他們對臺灣是非常、非常友善啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：所以要利用這個氛圍啦！"],["陳部長駿季：我們曾經問過，但他們說稻米不要碰啦！"],["邱委員志偉：這樣啊？"],["陳部長駿季：對，因為他們對稻米……"],["邱委員志偉：那石斑魚可不可以？"],["陳部長駿季：石斑魚就有機會啦！"],["邱委員志偉：石斑魚再談一下啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對，石斑魚我們可以談啦！"],["邱委員志偉：石斑魚再努力一下。"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["邱委員志偉：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請徐富癸委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林德福","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","郭國文","陳亭妃","李坤城","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","陳超明","鍾佳濱","邱志偉","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","李彥秀","麥玉珍","黃珊珊","呂玉玲","林思銘","羅明才","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2025-06-11"],"gazette_id":"1145901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「農業保險法第十條條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員邱\n若華等21人擬具「農業保險法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「農業保險法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1145901_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}