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請監察院告訴我們全台灣人民監察院的標準這樣是清廉正直嗎是不是這樣是不是你剛口中所講的清廉正直超然中立是嗎"},{"start":150.748,"end":177.344,"text":"有關於這個案件那監察院依據副院長的指示已經移到監察院的紀律委員會裡面去處理這兩碼指示嘛有沒有符合清廉正職的標準是一回事接下來怎麼處理另外一回事嘛這樣有清廉正職嗎他不敢講這些都是你的長官都是我們的玉石大夫不敢講是這樣嗎"},{"start":181.687,"end":193.758,"text":"委員我們已經依據副院長的指示來我們來看一看啦你所謂副院長的指示啊要調查嘛調查進度如何什麼時候調查結果監察院有發新聞稿對5月28號嘛立即啟動調查嘛那現在調查的進度如何誰在調查"},{"start":210.393,"end":218.78,"text":"目前呢 目前就是依照人民稅賬處理辦法的規定把相關的陳情案移到紀律委員會去處理紀律委員會現在有開會嗎"},{"start":222.694,"end":250.04,"text":"有關於紀律委員會的部分呢因為依照他的設置辦法跟他的任務原則上他不是一個定期會是所以咧現在有開會嗎不管是定期不定期我只關心一件事情開會沒有是那他會根據因為對不起請你針對問題回答開會沒有他會根據相關的議案跟委員的時間所以他開會沒有目前還沒有目前還沒有"},{"start":251.426,"end":274.714,"text":"哇 很會欺騙社會喔感覺好像很有魄力喔立即啟動調查結果是多立即啊5月28號說立即啟動調查結果到現在連會都還沒開喔監察院的立即 原來是這麼立即啊讓人嘆為觀止啊"},{"start":276.004,"end":302.494,"text":"打算什麼時候開還是沒有要開不打算要開了知不知道打算什麼時候要開這個紀律委員會他會依據相關的議案的內容還有委員所以打算什麼時候要開不知道因為這是紀律委員會來召開的所以你也不知道什麼時候要開嗎我不是紀律委員會的目的所以整個監察院告訴全體國人的是什麼"},{"start":303.567,"end":332.333,"text":"我們的副院長所以立即啟動調查搞到今天紀律委員會都還沒有開喔這是超然公正的監察院還是官官相護的監察院啊這個是正直連人的監察院啊還是腐臭不堪的監察院啊我相信全體國人心裡有一把尺啊來接下來請部長延續啊我們上一次啊"},{"start":335.428,"end":358.058,"text":"討論的主題我上次請問你啊 說民間司改會在2012年有一個追緝二檢的活動我問你說啊 現在二檢的問題啊 還存在嗎部長 二檢的問題還存在嗎呃 我不曉得那個二檢的一個定義啦是那是 我想我們都會 我們都會要做檢察官在法定的一個程序來還有游伯祥欸"},{"start":363.888,"end":378.47,"text":"委員你要讓我去解釋嗎是來請解釋那個我想這個二檢這個定義這個是委員所提供是2012年現在已經2025年我想這十幾年的一個時間那我想我們檢察機關在保護的"},{"start":379.071,"end":403.355,"text":"督導之下我們都是在一個要嚴守遵守法律的一個程序執行的職務我想在一個各方面我們都嚴加的督導能夠合乎檢察官的一些相關的規範好來 剛剛你說你不知道什麼是二檢嘛我就秀給你看 當初監察院是怎麼糾正的"},{"start":404.547,"end":414.872,"text":"當監察院的調查報告2012年他所延續的二檢是怎麼定義的不可以以不當的言語或方式怒罵威嚇受訓穩人"},{"start":416.195,"end":444.467,"text":"不僅是個人言行不當也嚴重損及國家形象及司法尊嚴也侵害受詢問人人權的保障剛部長說不知道什麼是二檢我就延續的當初2012年追緝二檢監察院所做的調查報告來清楚的告訴部長什麼是二檢這監察院的定義不是我的定義我們上次也看過了不管是刑事訴訟法還是檢察官倫理規範"},{"start":446.188,"end":473.059,"text":"檢察官詢問的時候 要以懇切的態度不可以用強暴 脅迫 利誘 詐欺 疲勞 詢問或其他不正的方式也不可以有笑虐 怒罵或歧視的情形這個檢察官有在遵守嗎 部長我們會督導檢察機關會督導嘛 好來 那我們來看一下我們的法務部如何督導你覺得可以這樣呼嚨的話 我們就來試試看檢察官可以這樣問案嗎來 請問部長"},{"start":476.465,"end":504.379,"text":"這是黑道恐嚇還是檢察官辦案檢察官可不可以這樣問案那個 柯委員報告齁那這個案件齁 反正案件在我不跟你討論案件的本身啦沒有沒有我只問你檢察官問案的態度你現在是直接講出個案的這些的證詞嘛是那現在這個案件已經在法院審理中了沒錯那我們要尊重法院審理的這件事情我一定尊重法院我現在問的是檢察官可以這樣問案嗎"},{"start":505.76,"end":506.081,"text":"檢查官倫理規範檢查官可以這樣問案嗎"},{"start":521.26,"end":539.774,"text":"那我們現在檢察官的問案都是合乎法律的一個規定所以這樣你也覺得是合乎法律規定是不是這個有法院來認定這個有法院來認定所以檢察官履歷規範是有法院來認定嗎委員你講的這個是屬於證據能力跟證據證明度的問題那這個現在已經是案件實例中的這個是證據證明度的問題喔好沒有關係沒有關係我等一下秀給你看我等一下秀給你看來我們先來複習一下來看一下當初啊"},{"start":549.844,"end":560.082,"text":"游伯祥是怎麼講的啊現任司法院大法官啊偵訊是發生不法情事啊公眾本來就有知的權利啊來 部長 贊不贊成"},{"start":563.287,"end":587.627,"text":"這是司法改革十週年紀念系列座談會啊我想這個要廣納意見啦大家的意見都不一樣嘛那我想這跟尊重國大法官的看法所以公開播放真訊光碟部長 讚不讚成我們可不可以公開播放真訊光碟這部分我想在外國立法律都是不允許"},{"start":588.459,"end":599.088,"text":"我國公開播放真訊光碟有違法嗎我的大法官游伯祥告訴全台灣人的啊我為了要逃離侏羅紀啊所以要公開播放真訊光碟啊"},{"start":605.865,"end":632.927,"text":"喔好來那我們再來看羅秉成說公開徵訊光碟有何不可羅秉成說公開徵訊光碟有何不可來部長贊不贊成這個我不贊成這個目前這個你不贊成喔那奇怪囉民進黨當上大官行政院政務委員負責處理法律案的都說公開播放徵訊光碟有何不可"},{"start":634.011,"end":650.362,"text":"我們的游伯祥說為了逃離侏羅紀所以公開播放徵訊光碟部長的立場跟他們都不一樣這是我們不贊成你不贊成喔我不贊成哇 那你們現在民進黨整個執政的標準讓人家覺得很錯亂喔"},{"start":651.636,"end":656.258,"text":"在野的時候直接公開播放光碟啊所以我說嘛民進黨執政前執政後差很多啦好那以現在的法律來規範的話公開播放真訊光碟公開播放真訊光碟請問到底犯了什麼法請教部長只有個資法"},{"start":682.191,"end":703.924,"text":"那你各自法你還要洩露各自,還有各自法的問題嗎?如果沒有洩露各自,會違法那還要有國民法官制度的適用嗎?我們一般職業法官審理的公開播放徵序、光碟違反什麼法?來請教部長我們認為是有各自法、國民法官法的問題對嘛,那還要涉及到各自嘛"},{"start":704.984,"end":728.649,"text":"如果公開播放徵訊光碟是檢察官辱罵受訓問人恐嚇他什麼叫辱罵什麼叫恐嚇來今天部長問到了重點什麼叫辱罵什麼叫恐嚇來我放給部長聽看部長覺得這是不是辱罵是不是恐嚇這個不要去公開這個屬於那個徵訊光碟不要去公開的一個播放好來請"},{"start":730.345,"end":736.492,"text":"這個委員你要不要立法會再質詢他們從來不找你,還是107年後開始不找你?107年以後開始不找我那不叫從來,從來是一次都沒有過"},{"start":747.725,"end":762.827,"text":"你在講什麼啊朱先生我們敬重你是朱將軍喔你自己聽聽你的話對得起你自己曾經有過的那顆心嗎你在講什麼顛三倒四的你在對什麼喔你在耍我是不是你退出小組內部小腿的原因到底是什麼"},{"start":763.956,"end":783.143,"text":"你自己說你退出啦 你說你17年退出啦對對對對好啦 你不要講那麼多好不好我有說你參加新華城的開會嗎你在玩什麼文字遊戲你自己要想清楚我們今天找你第三次來開庭的你之前兩天你都覺得你講什麼我們都順順的讓你回家你覺得今天還會這樣子嗎"},{"start":784.503,"end":806.936,"text":"你不要再跟我講那些有的沒的,什麼沒有管過這個你明明都在管,你這一點說瞎話這是中華民國的新興將軍嗎?因為你是將軍我才會生氣如果你是一個市井小民,你是一個泛夫走卒,沒什麼好生氣的我敬重你是將軍喔!結果你在講什麼話?我聽你,我想多講一點點你不覺得你已經講了很多,你都不累喔?蛤?有沒有違反檢察官履歷規範?"},{"start":813.018,"end":837.436,"text":"我想這個個案認定啦齁這樣也要個案認定沒有關係嘛我今天放出來給全體國民個案認定嘛這也是在處理釐清的案情的一個所以現在法務部部長是鼓勵全國檢查當時也這樣問案喔我要求是要遵守法律的一個來剛剛這一段的錄音違反了什麼個資法請教部長這個我不清楚嘛"},{"start":837.816,"end":866.569,"text":"現在我只問你態度嘛你怎麼會拿出這個真訊光碟出來在國會議堂上這樣播放咧我老實跟部長講這個不是真訊光碟啦那是審理光碟嗎這個不是真訊光碟啦這是什麼光碟我不清楚啦不是啊 所以我只要問你嘛檢察官可以這樣問案嗎我沒有落入任何個案啊我也沒有說這是真訊光碟啊你剛剛說你不知道什麼叫恐嚇"},{"start":868.769,"end":874.339,"text":"不知道什麼叫細虐所以我就放示範帶給你聽嘛在你們法務部的地理裡面這是不是恐嚇"},{"start":881.636,"end":890.682,"text":"但是我相信不要提出來再直接加整個一個證據的內容在做這個就不是我老實就跟你講嘛我老實就跟你講嘛這就不是證據光碟嘛所以你認為如果發生這樣的狀況應該要送個案評鑑對不對如果有的話嘛如果有的話就要送個案評鑑是嗎有人來那個"},{"start":909.956,"end":913.661,"text":"來請求那我們就來處理嘛我最後只講一句話"},{"start":914.98,"end":941.613,"text":"民進黨執政前跟執政後的標準對司法改革的看法對侏羅紀公園的看法對公開徵訊光碟的看法真的是180度髮夾彎拿到權力了以後 墮落成這個樣子所有的人通通都可以清楚形成自己客觀的評價"},{"start":943.782,"end":971.749,"text":"這樣子的問安方式我們的部長還背書喔我沒有背書你沒有背書喔我從來沒有背書我是督導我是站在督導的腳我是督導這個檢察那個整個真的有在督導嗎還是在鼓勵我沒有在鼓勵委員你不能這樣講這種話那個那個那個我還在督導我們檢察官在在整個一個政法的任務作為要合乎到法律的規定全體國人等一下全體國人就接下來看嘛你身為法務部部長要如何督導嘛"},{"start":973.633,"end":976.498,"text":"不要去干涉什麼個案的一些審理或是證據能力的問題啦"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":330,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時19分）謝謝主席。有請監察院副秘書長、法務部部長。"],["主席：監察院副秘、法務部部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位早。先請教監察院副秘，陳菊上任監察院院長的時候說他要當末代監察院院長，請問這一屆的監察院對於自己成為末代監察院做了什麼準備？有做準備嗎？"],["王副秘書長增華：跟委員說明，我們監察院在這一屆跟之前歷屆都是相同的，就是非常忠謹的行使監察職權。"],["黃委員國昌：我問的是，陳菊說要成為末代監察院院長，那你們這個末代監察院對於自己成為末代監察院做了什麼準備？你有這個目標就要開始準備啦！還是只是隨便嘴巴講一講？還是很戀棧、很想做？監委又肥又香，怎麼可能會成為末代？對於自己成為末代監察院做了什麼準備？沒有準備就老實講沒有準備就好了嘛！有做任何準備嗎？"],["王副秘書長增華：行使監察職權而已。"],["黃委員國昌：你剛剛搖頭是沒有做準備是不是？"],["王副秘書長增華：我們在……"],["黃委員國昌：好。第二個，陳菊也說未來監察院會更超然公正。有更超然公正嗎？有嗎？"],["王副秘書長增華：監察院一向超然公正。"],["黃委員國昌：監察院一向超然公正？你敢講，一堆臺灣人民聽不下去。現行條文規定監察委員的資格是清廉正直，請看一下投影片，這樣有清廉正直嗎？用公務車去看牙醫、送寵物、送親友，請監察院告訴我們全臺灣人民監察院的標準，這樣是清廉正直嗎？是不是？這樣是不是你剛剛口中所講的清廉正直、超然中立？是嗎？"],["王副秘書長增華：跟委員說明，關於這個案件，監察院依據副院長的指示，已經移到監察院的紀律委員會裡面去處理。"],["黃委員國昌：這兩碼子事嘛！有沒有符合清廉正直的標準是一回事，接下來怎麼處理是另外一回事嘛！這樣有清廉正直嗎？不敢講？這些都是你的長官，都是我們的御史大夫，不敢講？是這樣嗎？"],["王副秘書長增華：委員，我們已經依據副院長的指示，然後依據人民……"],["黃委員國昌：我們來看一看你所謂副院長的指示，要調查嘛，調查進度如何？什麼時候有調查結果？"],["王副秘書長增華：監察院有發新聞稿，就是……"],["黃委員國昌：5月28號嘛。"],["王副秘書長增華：對。"],["黃委員國昌：立即啟動調查嘛，那現在調查的進度如何？誰在調查？"],["王副秘書長增華：目前就是依照人民書狀及處理辦法的規定，把相關的陳情案移到紀律委員會去處理。"],["黃委員國昌：紀律委員會現在有開會嗎？"],["王副秘書長增華：有關於紀律委員會的部分，因為依照它的設置辦法跟它的任務，原則上它不是一個定期會。"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以呢？現在有開會嗎？不管是定期、不定期，我只關心一件事情，開會沒有？"],["王副秘書長增華：它會根據……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，請你針對問題回答，開會沒有？"],["王副秘書長增華：它會根據相關的議案跟委員的時間跟議案的……"],["黃委員國昌：所以它開會沒有？"],["王副秘書長增華：目前還沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：目前還沒有？哇，很會欺騙社會喔！感覺好像很有魄力，說要立即啟動調查，結果是多立即？5月28號說立即啟動調查，結果到現在連會都還沒開，監察院的立即原來是這麼立即，讓人嘆為觀止！你們打算什麼時候開？還是不打算要開了？"],["王副秘書長增華：紀律委員會會依據相關議案的內容，還有委員……"],["黃委員國昌：所以打算什麼時候要開，不知道嗎？"],["王副秘書長增華：因為這是紀律委員會召開的。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你也不知道什麼時候要開嘛！"],["王副秘書長增華：我不是紀律委員會的幕僚……"],["黃委員國昌：所以整個監察院告訴全體國人的是什麼？我們副院長說要立即啟動調查，搞到今天紀律委員會都還沒有開。這是超然公正的監察院，還是官官相護的監察院？這是正直廉能的監察院，還是腐臭不堪的監察院？我相信全體國人心裡有一把尺啊！","接下來請部長，延續我們上一次討論的主題，我上次請問你，民間司改會在2012年有一個「追緝惡檢」的活動，現在惡檢的問題還存在嗎？部長，惡檢的問題還存在嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不曉得惡檢的定義，但是我們都會要求檢察官，遵照法定的程序來……"],["黃委員國昌：上面坐的現在有很多都是你的同僚，有顧立雄、林豐正，還有尤伯祥。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，你要讓我解釋。"],["黃委員國昌：來，請解釋。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想惡檢的定義，委員提供的這個是2012年，現在已經2025年，我想這十幾年的時間，我們檢察機關在法務部的督導之下，我們都是在嚴守、遵守法律的程序之下執行職務，在各方面我們都嚴加督導，也合乎檢察官一些相關的規範。"],["黃委員國昌：剛剛你說你不知道什麼是惡檢，我就秀給你看當初監察院是怎麼糾正的。2012年監察院的調查報告，惡檢是怎麼定義的？「不可以以不當的言語或方式怒罵威嚇受訊問人，不僅是個人言行不當，更嚴重損及國家形象及司法尊嚴，也侵害受訊問人人權之保障」。剛剛部長說不知道什麼是惡檢，我就延續當初2012年追緝惡檢監察院所做的調查報告，清楚告訴部長什麼是惡檢，這是監察院的定義，不是我的定義。","我們上次也看過了，不管是刑事訴訟法，還是檢察官倫理規範，檢察官訊問的時候，要以懇切的態度，不可以用強暴、脅迫、利誘、詐欺、疲勞訊問或其他不正的方式，也不可以有笑謔、怒罵或歧視的情形，部長，這個檢察官有在遵守嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會督導檢察機關。"],["黃委員國昌：會督導！好，那我們來看一下我們法務部如何督導，「你覺得可以這樣糊弄的話，我們就來試試看！」，檢察官可以這樣問案嗎？請問部長，這是黑道恐嚇還是檢察官辦案？檢察官可不可以這樣問案？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，反正案件已經進入……"],["黃委員國昌：我不跟你討論案件的本身，我只問你檢察官問案的態度。"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有、沒有，你現在是直接講出個案這些證詞，現在這個案件已經在法院審理中，我們要尊重法院審理正在進行嘛。"],["黃委員國昌：我一定尊重法院，我現在問的是檢察官可以這樣問案嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢察官這麼問案的話，我想這牽扯到證據的證明內容，這由法院審酌、定奪，如果有疑慮的話，就依照法定程序請求釐清。"],["黃委員國昌：我不跟你談證據的證明度，我只問你刑事訴訟法、檢察官倫理規範，檢察官可以這樣問案嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們現在檢察官問案都合乎法律的規定。"],["黃委員國昌：所以這樣你也覺得合乎法律規定，是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這由法院認定。"],["黃委員國昌：你說這由法院認定，所以檢察官倫理規範是由法院認定？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個案件在審理中。委員，你講的這是屬於證據能力跟證據證明的問題，這個案件現在已經審理中了。"],["黃委員國昌：這是證據證明度的問題？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個法院自有定奪，法院自然會依照他們的請求釐清。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係、沒有關係，我等一下秀給你看。我們先來複習一下，當初尤伯祥（現在司法院大法官）是怎麼講的？他說：偵訊室發生不法情事，公眾本來就有知的權利。部長贊不贊成？這是司法改革十週年紀念系列座談會他說的話。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這要廣納意見。"],["黃委員國昌：這要廣納意見？"],["鄭部長銘謙：大家的意見都不一樣，我尊重尤大法官的看法。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係。尤伯祥說：為了逃離侏羅紀，所以公開播放偵訊光碟。部長贊不贊成？我們可不可以公開播放偵訊光碟？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分在外國立法例都是不允許播放。"],["黃委員國昌：我國公開播放偵訊光碟有違法嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們是反對的。"],["黃委員國昌：這是我們大法官尤伯祥告訴全臺灣人的，我為了要逃離侏羅紀，所以要公開播放偵訊光碟。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是他個人的見解，委員講這個是可以研議的，看有沒有……"],["黃委員國昌：可以研議？"],["鄭部長銘謙：但是以現在的相關規範，我認為是違反個人資料保護法的問題，所以我們是不贊成的。"],["黃委員國昌：我們再來看，羅秉成說公開偵訊光碟有何不可？部長贊不贊成？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不贊成，目前來講……"],["黃委員國昌：這個你不贊成？那奇怪了，民進黨當上大官，行政院政務委員負責處理法律案的都說公開播放偵訊光碟有何不可？尤伯祥說：為了逃離侏羅紀，所以公開播放偵訊光碟。部長的立場跟他們都不一樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這事我們不贊成。"],["黃委員國昌：你們不贊成？"],["鄭部長銘謙：不贊成。"],["黃委員國昌：那你們現在民進黨整個執政的標準讓人家覺得很錯亂。在野的時候直接公開播放偵訊光碟！"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為這是屬於訴訟上的準備程序，或是一些攻防上的使用，不是屬於目的外的使用。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我說民進黨執政前、執政後差很多啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們現在就以現在的法律規定。"],["黃委員國昌：那以現在的法律來規範的話，公開播放偵訊光碟，請問部長，到底犯了什麼法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：美國、德國、日本都禁止公開播放偵訊光碟。我們認為有個資法的問題。"],["黃委員國昌：只有個資法？要洩漏個資才有個資法的問題；如果沒有洩漏個資，未違法……"],["鄭部長銘謙：還有國民法官法有相關的見解。"],["黃委員國昌：那還要有國民法官制度的適用嘛。我們一般職業法官審理的，若公開播放偵訊光碟，請教部長違反什麼法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們認為有個資法跟國民法官法……"],["黃委員國昌：對！那還要涉及到個資。我如果公開播放偵訊光碟，是檢察官辱罵受訊問人、恐嚇他……"],["鄭部長銘謙：什麼叫辱罵？"],["黃委員國昌：什麼叫辱罵？什麼叫恐嚇？今天部長問到了重點，什麼叫辱罵？什麼叫恐嚇？我放給部長聽，看看部長覺得這是不是辱罵，是不是恐嚇。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這不要去公開，這是屬於偵訊光碟，不要公開播放。"],["黃委員國昌：請播放。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員你要不要利用……","（播放錄音）"],["黃委員國昌：有沒有違反檢察官倫理規範？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這要個案認定。"],["黃委員國昌：這樣也要個案認定？沒有關係，我今天放出來給全體國民個案認定。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這也是在處理釐清案情的……"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在法務部部長是鼓勵全國檢察官可以這樣問案？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有說怎麼樣，我要求要遵守法律倫理的相關規定。"],["黃委員國昌：請教部長，剛剛這一段錄音違反了什麼個資法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不曉得這是什麼案件，這個我不清楚。委員，你怎麼會拿偵訊光碟在國會議堂上這樣播放？"],["黃委員國昌：我老實跟部長講，這個不是偵訊光碟。"],["鄭部長銘謙：那是審理光碟嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：這個不是偵訊光碟啦。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是什麼光碟，我不清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦，我只要問你，檢察官可以這樣問案嗎？我沒有落入任何個案！我也沒有說這是偵訊光碟！你剛剛說你不知道什麼叫恐嚇，不知道什麼叫戲謔，所以我就放示範帶給你聽。在法務部的定義裡面，這是不是恐嚇？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，如果真的有違反規範的話，當然可以再送評鑑，但是不要在國會殿堂直接提出整個偵訊內容……"],["黃委員國昌：我已經跟你講了，這個就不是……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個偵訊內容的部分有沒有證據證明，法官自然會處理。"],["黃委員國昌：是，我老實跟你講，這就不是偵訊光碟。"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果有違反倫理規範的話，我們就會送個案評鑑，走法律途徑。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你認為如果發生這樣的狀況，應該要送個案評鑑，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果有的話。"],["黃委員國昌：如果有的話就要送個案評鑑，是嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果有人來請求，我們就來處理。"],["黃委員國昌：我最後只講一句話，民進黨執政前跟執政後的標準，對於司法改革的看法、對於侏羅紀公園的看法、對於公開偵訊光碟的看法，真的是180度髮夾彎！"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有髮夾彎，那是你個人的看法。"],["黃委員國昌：拿到權力以後墮落成這個樣子。"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有啦！我們在設法進步，追求對司法的改革……"],["黃委員國昌：所有的人通通都可以清楚形成自己客觀的評價，這樣的問案方式，部長還背書喔？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有背書。"],["黃委員國昌：你沒有背書？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我從來沒有背書，我是站在督導的角度督導檢察官整個……"],["黃委員國昌：真的在督導嗎？還是在鼓勵？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有在……委員，你不能講這種話。我會再督導檢察官在整個偵查的任何作為要合乎法律的規定。"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係！全體國人接下來就看你身為法務部部長要如何督導。謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：請委員不要干涉個案的審理或者證據能力的問題。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請王義川委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-20","speakers":["吳宗憲","王鴻薇","黃國昌","王義川","陳培瑜","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","羅智強","吳思瑤","劉書彬","林國成","麥玉珍","陳昭姿","張啓楷","黃珊珊","蔡易餘","翁曉玲","林倩綺","徐巧芯"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2025-06-16"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、法務部廉政署率所屬相關單位列席就「鑑於近來矯正\n監所暴力衝突事件頻傳，如何維護『矯正是刑事司法最後一道防線』及相關獄政策進作為，包括\n提升戒護人力資源」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續併案審查（一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具\n「監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二條文修正草案」案、（二）委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「監\n察院組織法第三條之一條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員徐巧芯等22人擬具「監察院國家人權委\n員會組織法第三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1146101_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}