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主席 今天各位部長先不用上來因為我看了你們的報告我發現你們每個人都阻止了自己的防火牆出去後就跟教育部沒有關係事情發生後就跟衛福部沒有關係"},{"start":30.97,"end":54.97,"text":"那在這個出了這個矯正機關以後,又去法務部矯正署,沒關係那請問一路人在弄丟人的,一路人在走的,不去也好的,是誰的事我發現你們沒有人要來承擔這一塊有些學生回到學校兩天,又不見了你們的報告裡頭,全部都寫正面的"},{"start":55.939,"end":71.567,"text":"輔導多少啊 叫多少孩子回去學校啊可是回去學校之後 又離開學校了這又沒人管了他如果沒有犯罪 正在醞釀犯罪正在被培訓要犯罪 那也不知道為什麼要管"},{"start":72.881,"end":82.289,"text":"剛才法務部長說 做的漫畫 動畫 比賽 會做的那些孩子都是心情比較好今天這個題目也沒關係 他們都留在那裏 沒有辦法去做所以這一塊 再請各部會 看是要叫政務委員出來協調還是怎樣"},{"start":96.377,"end":118.022,"text":"不然不只阿豪的 也不只家庭的 也不只交政機關的 六人六流連的這些孩子 他可能接下來就是犯罪的潛在的這個分子啊這一些看誰要來想辦法找到他們來協助他們好 接下來我請這個法務部的曾部長好 曾部長"},{"start":125.971,"end":147.072,"text":"委員長部長好請問這個前幾天質詢的時候有委員放了一卷叫做法務部的示範袋文字是這樣法務部的示範袋你們有這種東西嗎法務部沒有什麼徵信的所謂的示範袋這個絕對沒有可是你也沒有在這裡說"},{"start":150.404,"end":177.466,"text":"這部分齁 那個示範帶這部分我並沒有 我有仔細在看齁我並沒有就 因為這個委員剛開始講說這是要放徵訊光碟意思講這是徵訊光碟 後來就講說是示範帶但是說完後才講說是示範帶好 所以您長府發了一個聲明嘛齁聲明說您沒有這個東西嘛齁好 第二個針對這個立委啊 在質詢台上啊用來源不明"},{"start":179.252,"end":188.74,"text":"妨礙司法公正 造成社會誤解 錯誤聯想現在 歸縮 不敢提來源這樣的問證啊請問我們補充喔請問我們補充 臨華務部的新聞稿裡面啊說這個窮行不好 你們也會來研議"},{"start":205.835,"end":222.531,"text":"相關的這個規定你們會哪個方向去研議對這些的一個見證應該在法庭上來做一個公防之用不應該拿到外面來做其他這個公防以外其他法庭活動以外的一些好 那我請問鄭部長"},{"start":224.231,"end":242.743,"text":"進行中的案件啊 我王一川不是當事人 我也不是律師 我也不是檢察官 我也不是什麼辯護的人 我都不是我可以在偵查過程中 拿到偵訊光碟 聽到偵訊光碟的內容嘛"},{"start":245.753,"end":274.491,"text":"這部分跟委員報告這些可以copy這些徵訊光碟的這一種的徵訊的一些的資料這個訴訟法第33條有做這樣的一個規定訴訟法這樣的一個規定就是說辯護人在審判中得檢閱卷宗證物跟抄錄重置又攝影那這種最主要是要防禦行使防禦潛資用這個是不能夠做其他的使用非正當的使用而且法案組織法"},{"start":275.451,"end":291.248,"text":"第38條有規定這個法庭的錄音錄影之人取得這些的內容不得散播公開一個播送而且要有正當的一個目的所以如果王逸川能夠聽到這些徵訊的光碟不管那個歌都叫他不管的那聽到的人有事嗎"},{"start":296.86,"end":321.998,"text":"這部分我想這個就是這個個案反正在審理中審理中的這些資料在法庭上用不能夠再做其他的一個非正當的資料那如果把這些資料不管他重置完拿出來怎樣怎樣轉述搞一些有的沒的請問把這些東西拿出來的人去散佈的人不管他的目的是什麼反正不是訴訟要用的"},{"start":323.356,"end":345.629,"text":"他交給了另外一個完全不相干的人請問這樣的辯護人 或者這樣的檢察官 或者這樣的法官現在法官檢察官跟這一個律師嘛 辯護人 以後都處理到這嘛這樣用出來之後 假設律師 律師會受到什麼樣的懲處"},{"start":349.14,"end":373.314,"text":"這個是屬於那個 如果說屬於目的外因為這個是要法庭之用嘛那如果這樣的話 收集處理這有個資法的一個問題所以那一天6月16日我再提醒說這個有個資法的一個問題喔如果說律師 這個律師是製作的這個依託法律的違反個資法這個甚至有那個律師違反律師倫理規範這有律師法的一個應付懲戒的一個室友好 所以這位律師啊"},{"start":374.022,"end":397.949,"text":"拿出來的東西拿出來完全不相干的人拿給他的好朋友都要重製變造各式各樣的改變然後拿出來公開播放那那個律師有事喔這部分有可能有違反那個各司法的問題這個是個別的個案啦這個要調查才會知道我們說的是一個通案啦好第二個如果有人看過了徵訊筆錄"},{"start":404.841,"end":423.107,"text":"把這個筆錄的文字啊,叫兩個N完都要N,NN的料,給出來播放審判中的案子齁,在這個審判中的案子,有人筆錄看過了,抄出來,抄出來叫兩個都要N,NN的料公開播放"},{"start":424.396,"end":444.27,"text":"會影響法官的心證嗎?會影響社會的輿論嗎?在審理中的案件,我們是希望維護一個獨立審判的空間我們不需要用這種的方式去干涉法院的一個審判這個是粉療四天,我們是不贊成有這樣的一個行為那請司法院的副秘書長"},{"start":447.837,"end":455.384,"text":"現在外界有疑慮,說這件大事後,會不會影響法官在審理過程中就是說這法官也在看電視,這法官也在看網路,也在看立法院的職部,看一看就說哎喲,這這樣碰下去可能會如何如何法官在這件事情上的態度是什麼"},{"start":471.92,"end":475.484,"text":"你們的訓練跟法官的訓練過程中你們會做什麼樣的教育就是有關於法官的培訓很重要一個就是我們一定要恪守憲法那個精神那個獨立審判那當然就是說"},{"start":493.644,"end":521.36,"text":"一個案件在審理的時候如果說外界有各種各樣的那個聲音的話用這個輿論來製造那個輿論化法官當然就是他承受那個壓力事實上是會更大他是會依獨立審判那但是就是對他整個身心所遭受這種壓力事實上我們必須講就是說法官就是一般人所以他當然還是會有那個就是他必須要去那個抗拒這個壓力就會有身心好了這就是我們一般說的叫做妨礙司法公正啦就說這個"},{"start":522.481,"end":539.33,"text":"要判法官有這個壓力啦,這個壓力有時候是無形的啦有的人動會掉啦,有的人憂慘未知一大堆啦,可能會應用掉啦所以你們也要呼籲啦,不是這審判中的案子喔,大家不要意見這麼多就讓這個法官有這個獨立的審判空間啦好,最後我再問這一個鎮部長"},{"start":546.857,"end":575.993,"text":"如果拿了這個真訊筆錄或者聽了真訊筆錄拿了這個筆錄的紙本 組織稿或者是聽過真訊筆錄也不是找人演就是用AI演用AI啦 用AI搞一些假的影片啦模仿當事人的聲音啦模仿當事人的聲音用這種方式公開的播放"},{"start":577.113,"end":606.138,"text":"影響了司法的公正這看起來也在變造偽造相關的這一個文書那這個事情啊在刑法上啊應該就是刑死偽造文書罪所以部長我在這邊啊公開告發黃國昌先生涉嫌違法刑法刑死偽造文書罪部長"},{"start":607.534,"end":630.693,"text":"我知道你不是檢查相關的這個機關我現在公開告發可以請你轉相關的這一個檢查署進行偵辦嗎?謝謝 那我們這部分就轉給他作為一個參考好 轉給這一個相關的檢查署去不管要偵辦 要了解 要怎樣啦總是齁 要給他社會說這樣做不行啦因為這做完齁"},{"start":637.225,"end":659.645,"text":"這個立委這樣做之後,要抄襲牆壁喔,會模仿啦抄襲牆壁,聽到會模仿模仿之後,一萬六千元啦,真真假假我們的觀察官、我們的法官,就會看到一些奇奇怪怪的東西心裡的壓力都會有啦,極限啦,大大小小所以這個案子"},{"start":662.107,"end":677.236,"text":"請這個法務部,你不要怕發新聞稿,你的新聞稿全部都看到後面相關的規範,趕快看要怎麼樣來研議至於這些遊走在法律邊緣的立法委員,站在國會殿堂搞這種事情相關的檢察署要啟動相關的偵辦"},{"start":683.106,"end":689.137,"text":"希望法務部加油 也告訴國人說這件事 這樣是不好的會影響台灣司法的獨立 好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":198,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（9時16分）主席。今天各位部長先不用上來，因為我看了你們的報告，我發現你們每個人都築起了自己的防火牆，出去學校的就跟教育部沒關係；事情發生之後就跟衛福部沒關係；出了矯正機關以後就跟法務部矯正署沒關係，那請問在路上遊手好閒的、沒去學校的，是誰的事情？我發現你們沒有人要來承擔這一塊。有些學生回到學校兩天又不見了，你們的報告裡頭全部都寫正面的，輔導了多少、叫多少孩子回去學校，可是回去學校之後又離開學校了，這又沒人管了。他如果沒有犯罪，正在醞釀犯罪、正在被培訓要犯罪，那也不知道什麼人要管！剛剛法務部部長說做那個什麼漫畫、動畫比賽，會做那個的孩子都是成績比較好的，跟這個題目也沒關係，他們如果是遊手好閒的沒辦法去做那個。","所以這一塊再請各部會，看是要叫政務委員出來協調還是怎麼樣，不然沒有在學校的、沒有在家庭的，也沒有在矯正機關的，在路上遊手好閒的這些孩子，他可能接下來就是犯罪的潛在分子，這一些看誰要想辦法找到他們，來協助他們。","接下來我請法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：好，鄭部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["王委員義川：部長好。請問前幾天質詢的時候，有委員放了一卷叫做「法務部的示範帶」，文字是這樣──法務部的示範帶，你們有這種東西嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：法務部沒有什麼偵訊的所謂示範帶，這個絕對沒有。"],["王委員義川：可是你那天也沒有直接跟他說。"],["鄭部長銘謙：示範帶這部分，我有仔細在看，我並沒有就……因為委員剛開始講是要放偵訊光碟，意思就是偵訊光碟，後來就講是示範帶，是播完後才講這是示範帶。"],["王委員義川：好，所以你們昨天發了一個聲明，聲明說你們沒有這個東西。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是的。"],["王委員義川：好。第二個，針對這個立委在質詢臺上用來源不明，妨礙司法公正，造成社會誤解、錯誤聯想的影片，現在龜縮不敢提來源，這樣的問政，請問部長，法務部的新聞稿裡面說這個恐怕不好，你們也會研議相關規定，你們會往哪個方向研議？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這些卷證應該在法庭上做攻防之用，不應該拿到外面做攻防以外、其他法庭活動以外的一些……"],["王委員義川：好，那我請問鄭部長，進行中的案件，我王義川不是當事人，我也不是律師，我也不是檢察官，我也不是什麼辯護的人，我都不是！我可以在偵查過程中拿到偵訊光碟，聽到偵訊光碟的內容嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分跟委員報告，可以copy偵訊光碟這一些偵訊資料，在刑事訴訟法第三十三條有做這樣的規定，就是辯護人於審判中得檢閱卷宗、證物、抄錄、重製或攝影。這種最主要是要行使防禦權之用，這個不能夠做其他的使用、非正當的使用，而且法院組織法第三十八條有規定，法庭錄音、錄影之人，取得這些內容，不得散布、公開播送，或非為正當目的……"],["王委員義川：好，所以如果王義川能夠聽到這些偵訊的光碟，不管那個個案，跟我沒關係，那聽到的人有事嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分，我想這個就是，凡是在審理中的這些資料在法庭上用，不能夠再做其他非正當的……"],["王委員義川：那如果把這些資料，不管他重製完，怎樣、怎樣地轉述，搞一些有的沒的，請問把這些東西拿出來的人、去散布的人，不管他的目的是什麼，反正不是訴訟要用的，他交給了另外一個完全不相干的人，請問這樣的辯護人或者這樣的檢察官，或者這樣的法官，現在只有法官、檢察官跟律師、辯護人有辦法處理到這個嘛！這樣用出來之後，假設是律師，律師會受到什麼樣的懲處？"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果屬於目的外，因為這個是要法庭之用，如果這樣的話，蒐集處理，這有個資法的一個問題，所以那一天、6月16日我在提醒，這有個資法的一個問題喔！如果這個律師是製作的……這個逸脫法律的、違反個資法，甚至有違反律師倫理規範，這有律師法的應付懲戒事由。"],["王委員義川：好，所以這個律師如果把這些東西拿出來，給完全不相干的人，拿給他的好朋友，進行重製、變造，做各式各樣的改變，然後拿出來公開播放，那麼那個律師有事喔？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分可能有違反個資法的問題。"],["王委員義川：好，這是個別的個案……"],["鄭部長銘謙：嗯。"],["王委員義川：這個要調查才會知道，我們說的是一個通案，如果是這樣。第二個，如果有人看過偵訊筆錄，把這個筆錄的文字叫兩個演員在那邊演，演完之後拿出來播放，審判中的案子。在審判中的案子，有人筆錄看一看了之後、抄出來之後，叫兩個人在那邊演，演一演了之後公開播放，會影響法官的心證嗎？會影響社會的輿論嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：在審理中的案件，我們是希望維護一個獨立審判的空間，我們不希望用這種方式去干涉法院的審判，這個是混淆視聽，我們不贊成有這樣的一個行為。"],["王委員義川：好，那請司法院副秘書長，現在外界有疑慮，這個影帶出來之後，會不會影響法官在審理的過程？就是這個法官也有在看電視，這個法官也有在看網路，也有在看立法院的直播，等會兒看一看了以後想說，哎唷！這個如果這樣判下去可能會怎樣、怎樣又怎樣。法官在這件事情上的態度……"],["王副秘書長梅英：那個……"],["王委員義川：你們的訓練，我又不是說你，你又不是法官。就是你們的訓練跟這個法官的訓練過程中，你們會做什麼樣的教育？"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員，有關於法官的培訓，很重要的一個就是我們一定要恪守憲法獨立審判的精神。當然一個案件在審理的時候，如果外界有各種各樣的聲音的話，製造輿論化，法官當然承受的壓力事實上會更大，他會獨立審判，但是對他整個身心所遭受的這種壓力，事實上，我們必須講，法官就是一般人，所以他當然還是會有那個……他必須要去抗拒這個壓力，就會有身心的……"],["王委員義川：好啦！這就是我們一般說的叫做妨礙司法公正啦！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["王委員義川：就是讓這個要判的法官有壓力，這個壓力有時候是無形的。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["王委員義川：有的人抵擋得住，而有的人就憂讒畏譏一大堆的，可能會影響到嘛！"],["王副秘書長梅英：嗯。"],["王委員義川：所以你們也要呼籲，大家針對審判中的案子不要意見這麼多，就讓法官有獨立的審判空間。","最後我再問鄭部長，如果拿了偵訊筆錄或者聽了偵訊筆錄，拿了筆錄的紙本逐字稿或者是聽過偵訊筆錄，也不是找人演，就是用AI演！用AI搞一些假的影片、模仿當事人的聲音，用這種方式公開播放，影響了司法公正，這看起來也在變造、偽造相關文書，這種事情在刑法上應該就是行使偽造文書罪。所以部長，我在這邊公開告發黃國昌先生涉嫌違反刑法行使偽造文書罪！部長，我知道你不是檢察相關機關，我現在公開告發，可以請你轉相關的檢察署進行偵辦嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝，我們這部分就轉給它作為一個參考。"],["王委員義川：好，轉給相關的檢察署，不管要偵辦、要了解等等，總是要跟社會說可不可以這樣做，因為立委這樣做之後，「草仔」跟「蔥仔」會模仿啦！「草仔」跟「蔥仔」的程度會模仿，模仿之後在網路上面真真假假，我們的檢察官、我們的法官就會看到一些奇奇怪怪的東西，心裡多少都會有壓力，無論是大大小小。所以這個案子請法務部不要只發新聞稿，你的新聞稿昨天我們都有看到，趕快看看要怎麼樣研議後面相關的規範。至於這些遊走在法律邊緣的立法委員站在國會殿堂搞這種事情，相關的檢察署要啟動相關的偵辦，希望法務部加油，也告訴國人這些事情這樣搞是不好的，會影響臺灣的司法獨立，謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":432,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-20","speakers":["吳宗憲","王義川","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","黃國昌","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林月琴","王鴻薇","張啓楷","徐欣瑩","葉元之","翁曉玲","林倩綺","張雅琳","林國成"],"page_start":355,"meetingDate":["2025-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部部長、教育部部長、法務部矯正署署長、內政部\n警政署署長、勞動部、法務部廉政署率所屬相關單位列席就「青少年刑案嫌疑人於2024年創歷年\n新高，達4.7萬餘人次，現行少年輔導、矯正效能，包括校園霸凌處理機制、高關懷學生、安置\n輔導、保護管束、感化教育、職能訓練、更生系統、中介轉銜機制、追蹤輔導、逆境社工等，及\n《少年事件處理法》『行政輔導先行』施行迄今近兩年，相關制度之檢討與策進」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146101_00007"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}