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請黃部長請部長部長早部長上一次在質詢台上面本席關切的那個"},{"start":21.328,"end":42.127,"text":"111啊 我們現在民眾啊 收到簡訊只要簡訊前面的號碼出現111本來過去我們都講 那個絕對不是詐騙那後來呢 我們就開始發現這個移動基地台 蓋台然後111就變成不一定是真的 對不對那我看了一下你們最近又公布了一個記者會"},{"start":43.728,"end":55.18,"text":"應該是回應我說要趕快把這問題解決嘛那現在的方式是怎麼樣是111再加後面再加你的三個碼就是說蓋台沒辦法產生後面這三個碼對就是"},{"start":57.809,"end":86.199,"text":"11在家收到的那一個人的三個碼對 後面三個碼好 只有這個是真的對 所以你會看到11然後再加上自己的電話號碼後面三個碼有這樣才會證明也就是這個這種方式讓剛剛講的21蓋台的這些假的基地站沒辦法產生這個後面這三個碼所以它只能出現111它最多最多出現11但是因為就不會是有後面這三個碼所以讓民眾更能夠判斷這個訊息是真是假好 那"},{"start":87.541,"end":92.619,"text":"現在目前收到 如果還單純收到111除了2G的簡訊"},{"start":93.789,"end":118.876,"text":"主要是2G蓋台啦就是3G是已經沒有了所以2G的手機有大部分手機那系統有沒有關係系統就跟安卓跟iOS系統iOS的2G我的了解像新的iPhone大概都收不到2G的訊號那舊的Android系統還是有人會收到2G的訊號所以這個蓋台的時候不是每個人都看得到有一部分舊的手機會看到那換言之"},{"start":119.716,"end":138.39,"text":"部長那現在所有的人你只要用111加號碼就好了就不要再用111了嘛就不會 而且未來不會只有111啦對 簡單講就是不要再用111就不會有111有些是真有些是假所以現在我的建議就是只要"},{"start":139.21,"end":155.512,"text":"就不要再用111這個簡訊啦就不要用就不用沒有看的問題嘛就以後就是111加你個人的號碼後三碼對後三碼不要再發111啦就沒有就不要看到11就要懷疑對啦"},{"start":156.653,"end":168.967,"text":"看111是詐111有可能詐騙可以用但我的意思是說真實的絕對不是詐騙譬如說政府機關發的沒有那個111的這樣可不可以那個細節有請那個市長市長是"},{"start":171.57,"end":181.873,"text":"報告委員剛才講那個說法可能稍微再調整一下就是說第一個就是還是會看到111這個號碼發出來簡訊只是簡訊內容的一剛開頭會把民眾那個手機的陌生碼帶進去所以他看到還是11號碼只是內容簡訊內容會有一個這個手機陌生碼那就是以後只要宣導"},{"start":193.817,"end":219.497,"text":"簡訊的內容的一開頭一定是111加你的陌生碼絕對是真對在訊息的開頭對不對這樣子嘛宣導就宣導這樣子就不要再管111是真是假的就直接要看簡訊的內容的開頭還是要有自己的陌生碼所以我的意思是說你看你們開完記者會我看了一下新聞我還是有一點模糊所以表示這個宣導還是有一點問題"},{"start":222.579,"end":247.399,"text":"所以要怎麼樣更簡單的告訴大家絕對是真的那你就要直接告訴大家說很簡單不管你的抬頭看到什麼只要簡訊內容的起頭有11加你的號電話的陌生碼一定為真是這樣嗎還是不對好來你看看我講那麼久還是不對這個讓委員誤解了這其實它是兩個步驟"},{"start":248.84,"end":277.76,"text":"第一個步驟你還是要看到是111這個號碼發來的簡訊第二個步驟才是看簡訊內容的一剛開頭會有三碼你自己的電話號碼的末三碼那樣子所以它是兩個步驟並不是簡訊內容裡面的開頭是111加上末三碼並不是這樣子它其實是兩個步驟的好那你可以直接這樣宣導啦但我還是覺得我的疑問就是除了這個宣導我剛剛有誤解嗎宣導是"},{"start":279.636,"end":304.524,"text":"AND不是ALL啦就兩個一定要有先看到11再加簡訊內容那我接著請問那換言之111是可以造假的因為蓋台對蓋台嘛不管他什麼辦法111看到也可能是詐騙嘛那下面的11加你手機每一個人個人手機的莫三碼這個可不可以造假"},{"start":305.117,"end":326.712,"text":"後面墨山碼是沒辦法抄假的因為那個蓋台那個假的記憶站不知道你的手機就說他沒辦法去好那如果我前面不要出現111但我的簡訊內容出現111加你手機的墨山碼他有沒有可能是假的這個如果不是111就都要懷疑我的意思說簡訊的"},{"start":328.752,"end":351.797,"text":"第一行你簡訊內容的第一行是111加你手機的墨三碼這也可能是假的簡訊因為這個可以造假最主要是前面就是11這個前面一定要11後面才是你的那個我同意所以兩個都要啦那你們趕快照這樣的方向宣導否則的話這個就是你看齁"},{"start":353.197,"end":373.642,"text":"你們記者會都開完了立法院我還是搞不大懂所以我今天特別把他詢問清楚是因為這個對反詐都很重要啦謝謝委員建議第二個齁這個我看了一下你們的反詐的一個就是那個查詢網網路詐騙通報查詢網部長這幾月開始上線正式"},{"start":380.86,"end":396.105,"text":"我們正式上線是5月15所以大概一個月部長現在目前這一個查詢網下載量是多少1萬8你們對於一個月只有1萬多下載滿意嗎或者正常嗎"},{"start":403.133,"end":423.165,"text":"這個我們當然是希望能夠 我們現在因為剛上架嘛我們會擴大宣傳 那當然我們是希望越多人下載越好所以這個我們還需要再多宣傳這樣的一個部長 除了宣傳之外 他其實我的感覺是這樣啦 這都是消費市場的概念譬如說我看了一下"},{"start":424.386,"end":448.281,"text":"警政服務警政服務這個APP下載超過100萬次台灣大哥大的這個反詐戰警超過10萬然後這個Who's Call超過5000萬然後中華網安助手這中華電信的超過5萬部長你有沒有研究過這些APP跟你的APP的差異是什麼"},{"start":451.058,"end":476.416,"text":"那個第一點不知道委員就是說他們這些APP都已經有一段時間了時間嘛 時間是一個所以我們因為正式上架是5月15嘛所以我想我們在努力以後我們當然希望越多人下載越好這個我們會再去宣傳那目標當然是希望能夠更多民眾就是這邊有講嘛就是像我們反詐戰警或者是警政部都超過10萬嘛我想這是我們下一個目標"},{"start":477.056,"end":503.156,"text":"部長我的意思是這樣啦我當然我希望我猜的不對啦我希望我接下來發言人猜不對我們下一個月在這裡我認為你還是差不多差距不了太遠這個數字差距不了太遠啦我的感覺是這樣那我的邏輯很簡單我覺得就是說市場嘛就我們政府沒有從市場的角度來看就是簡單講當你這個APP非常好用的時候啊你不用宣傳大家會幫你宣傳"},{"start":505.027,"end":527.928,"text":"他的傳播大家會不斷的告訴他的親友你要下載這一個老人家不會下載我會回家找我媽媽幫他的手機下載好為什麼 太好用了所以關鍵就是你的東西內容是什麼那我為什麼問你其他的其實我的意思就是說譬如說我舉例這裡面搞不好有些是要收費的"},{"start":528.971,"end":551.605,"text":"對不對有些是要收費的我們的不用嘛對有人我剛剛念的一大堆APP有可能是要收費嘛譬如說Who's Call可能要收費我不知道那個反詐戰警要不要收費聽說也要 台哥大的那個APP那它的收費的服務內容我們可不可以做得到譬如說我舉例"},{"start":557.652,"end":575.8,"text":"反詐戰警他來電的時候他會告訴你你現在打來這個電話可能是詐騙或者可能是銀行的推銷他會直接在你電話響的同時他就提醒你嘛那部長他們的data哪裡來的"},{"start":577.722,"end":596.116,"text":"台灣大哥大的data為什麼他知道這一個手機的號碼是有疑慮或者這個手機號碼他直接告訴你這個是某某銀行的客服或者某某銀行的推銷的銷售員打來的他的data來自哪裡"},{"start":597.621,"end":616.77,"text":"電信公司本來在客戶上就有些客戶資料那他如果他知道這個是詐騙他是不是來自政府他的後端的data譬如說他確定這個是詐騙他那個是資料是來自165我們的也是來自政府各單位我們的APP我們的APP在判"},{"start":618.391,"end":647.051,"text":"我們第一個 我們有些是自己掃描 就AI去掃描的嘛然後有一些也是來自 情資是來自民眾的通報另外就是也有跟165警政署有些合作對對對 所以部長 我簡單講因為時間的關係 結論就是說處發部應該把這些每一個單位他到底他的APP為什麼會大家覺得好用那因為我們是政府嘛 我們是打詐的最前線"},{"start":648.479,"end":677.017,"text":"我們代表的是這個國家的力量在處理詐騙所以我們要想盡各種可能無論叫AI去掃無論是民眾檢舉無論來自警政署無論來自速發部的什麼檢舉的什麼東西反正只要這個國家裡面對方可以取得的我們一定可以取得就是這些好用APP可以取得的DATA速發部哪一個不可以取得你告訴我我不相信啦你是打詐最前線就代表國家在打詐"},{"start":678.171,"end":698.396,"text":"那所以你的APP邏輯上應該是全世界全台灣最好用的APP不過我有一個可能稍微要說明一下像警政署很多資料是已經是確定是詐騙那我們處理的是還不確定是詐騙的時候一個通報所以在這個時候你現在不懂你們是一個檢舉網站我也沒有關係就是你的功能應該是"},{"start":703.337,"end":721.92,"text":"不確定我也可以查詢對現在目的是這樣然後做好最好到你確定的事情當我的電話來的時候他直接就告訴我我們剛剛講就是但確定了我們沒問題我們會直接通報不不不我的意思是說為什麼你不可以做到"},{"start":724.325,"end":744.854,"text":"詐騙電話來你們確定這個是詐騙電話的時候為什麼你不可以直接向其他APP的功能可以順便提醒我這個電話有疑慮如果我們那個網頁當民眾檢舉過的那個網址確定是詐騙下一個質詢的時候詢問的時候我們就跟他說這是詐騙你是下一個被動詢問但是在第一次發生的時候因為這個地方"},{"start":747.455,"end":756.922,"text":"我們分兩塊一塊就是你的app讓人家檢舉第二個就是你們主動提醒所有全台灣人說這個電話有問題"},{"start":761.274,"end":790.575,"text":"那個我們主要是網站嘛主動提醒這個那個因為我們現在那個網站通報查詢網跟那個剛剛委員講到那些電話處理是不一樣我們處理的是網址不是處理是電話那電話說有個來電方那來電方因為沒辦法把那個電話馬上給封鎖所以他們就是會提用提醒民眾的方法那我們的方法呢是直接就是叫Meta說那個有問題的沒問題直接把它下架了你們有公權力可以執行後段啦"},{"start":791.135,"end":816.513,"text":"我的意思是說 你的網站要好用齁這些民間的功能為什麼它可以下載到 譬如說Who's Call為什麼可以下載五千萬次我只是要你們腦筋去想一想說 人家是做什麼 為什麼大家都要下載又負錢耶 為什麼我現在要打仗 我自己還要負錢也有很多人要付 因為我數字它有五千萬下載嘛 壞"},{"start":819.053,"end":844.179,"text":"為什麼我們速發部不來問問說我們開發這個網站跟市場怎麼競爭為什麼他可以那他的功能是什麼那他的data有可能就是來自政府部門嘛所以我剛剛講過哪一個部門的data你們取獲取不了分兩塊一塊是現有我知道這一群這個就是可以的第二個就是我還不知道等著大家來檢舉你們現在一直在跟我講等著大家來檢舉的部分我的意思是要你們處理"},{"start":845.719,"end":866.256,"text":"檢舉也應該讓大家檢舉現有的你也可以提醒大家這就是你就是全台灣打炸的的貪投保急先鋒你拿政府的預算在做這些事情你為什麼不開發一個讓人家下載全台灣你根本不用宣傳嘛我每一個人都會幫你宣傳因為你太好用了打炸太有效了為什麼"},{"start":867.016,"end":889.965,"text":"這個委員的建議我們再回去再跟這些他們做法再研究但是我跟你講就是說我們現在看到詐騙網站我們就要他下載根本民眾不希望民眾再看這個我沒問題嘛你讓他下載我檢舉了你發現對你就讓他下載這因為你有公權力嘛其他人不可以叫他下載是因為其他人沒公權力但其他人為什麼會那麼多人願意下載他的APP"},{"start":890.365,"end":914.449,"text":"我們再去你不做這個不然你相信我啦我們幾個月之後坐在這裡我們還在講說怎麼才也還在一兩萬我們再看看部長你懂我的意思我們再回去我是提醒你們可以這樣做應該要這樣做這樣的不用開記者會宣傳你的APP全台灣的人都主動每個人增香下載你的APP謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":379,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（10時26分）謝謝主席，請黃部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長早。部長，上一次在質詢臺上本席關切的「111」，現在民眾收到簡訊，只要簡訊前面的號碼出現「111」，過去我們都講那個絕對不是詐騙，但後來我們發現移動基地台蓋台，然後「111」就變成不一定是真的了，對不對？我看了一下，你們最近又開了一個記者會，應該是要回應我說要趕快把這問題解決嘛，請問現在的方式是怎麼樣？是「111」再加……"],["黃部長彥男：後面再加你的3個碼，因為蓋台沒辦法產生後面這3個碼，所以……"],["蔡委員其昌：對，就是「111」再加收到的那一個人的3個碼？"],["黃部長彥男：對，後面3個碼。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，只有這個是真的？"],["黃部長彥男：對，所以你會看到「111」，然後再加自己電話號碼的後面3個碼，這樣才會是真的，也就是說，剛剛所講的以2G基地台蓋台的這些假基地站沒辦法產生後面這3個碼。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以他只能出現「111」？"],["黃部長彥男：他最多最多出現「111」，就不會有後面這3個碼，這樣讓民眾更能夠判斷這個訊息是真是假。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，目前單純收到「111」，除了2G的簡訊以外還有嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：主要是2G蓋台啦，3G是已經沒有了，大部分手機……"],["蔡委員其昌：系統有沒有關係？Android跟iOS系統。"],["黃部長彥男：就剛剛所講的，iOS的2G，就我的了解，像新的iPhone大概都收不到2G的訊號，舊的Android系統還是有人會收到2G的訊號，所以這個蓋台的時候不是每個人都看得到，有部分的舊手機會看到。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，換言之，現在所有的人，你只要用「111」加號碼就好了嘛，就不要再用「111」了嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：對，而且未來也不會只有「111」啦。"],["蔡委員其昌：簡單講，就是不要再用「111」就不會有……"],["黃部長彥男：對，不要只看「111」。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為「111」有些是真、有些是假，所以現在的建議就是不要再用「111」這個簡訊啦！"],["黃部長彥男：不要只看「111」。"],["蔡委員其昌：不要用就沒有看的問題嘛！以後就是「111」加你個人的號碼……"],["黃部長彥男：後三碼。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，後三碼啊，不要再發「111」啦！"],["黃部長彥男：對，如果只看到「111」就要懷疑。"],["蔡委員其昌：對啦，「111」有可能詐騙可以用啦，但我的意思是說，真實的、絕對不是詐騙的，譬如說政府機關發的，沒有那個「111」的，這樣可不可以？"],["黃部長彥男：有關細節的部分，我請司長報告。"],["蔡委員其昌：請司長。"],["王司長誠明：報告委員，剛才講的那個說法可能稍微再調整一下。第一個，還是會看到「111」這個號碼發出來簡訊，只是簡訊內容的一剛開頭會把民眾手機的末三碼帶進去，所以他看到的還是「111」號碼，只是簡訊內容會有手機末三碼。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，以後只要宣導簡訊內容的一開頭一定是「111」加你的末三碼，這樣絕對是真。"],["黃部長彥男：對，在訊息的開頭。"],["蔡委員其昌：這樣子嘛，所以宣導是要宣導這樣嘛。"],["黃部長彥男：對，會這樣宣導。"],["蔡委員其昌：就不要再管「111」是真是假啦。"],["黃部長彥男：看「111」有沒有後三碼就知道了。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，就直接看簡訊內容的開頭。"],["黃部長彥男：還是要有自己的末三碼。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以我的意思是說，你們開完記者會之後，我看了一下新聞還是覺得有一點模糊，所以表示這個宣導還是有一點問題，要怎麼樣更簡單的告訴大家絕對是真的，你就要直接告訴大家，這很簡單，不管你的抬頭看到什麼，只要簡訊內容的起頭有「111」加你的電話號碼末三碼就一定為真，是這樣嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：請司長再次說明。"],["蔡委員其昌：還是不對？你看看，我講那麼久還是不對。"],["王司長誠明：不好意思，讓委員誤解了。其實是兩個步驟：第一個步驟還是要看到是「111」這個號碼發來的簡訊，第二個步驟才是簡訊內容的一剛開頭會有你自己電話號碼的末三碼。所以是兩個步驟，並不是簡訊內容的開頭是「111」加上末三碼，並不是這樣子，其實是兩個步驟。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，你可以直接這樣宣導啦，但我的疑問是，除了這個宣導，我剛剛有誤解嘛，要宣導是and不是or，就兩個一定都要，先看到「111」，再加簡訊內容。"],["黃部長彥男：對，再看訊息裡面有自己的末三碼。"],["蔡委員其昌：我接著請問，換言之，「111」是可以造假的。"],["黃部長彥男：因為蓋台，2G……"],["蔡委員其昌：蓋台嘛，不管用什麼辦法，看到「111」也可能是詐騙嘛！好，在「111」後加每一個人自己手機號碼的末三碼，這個可不可以造假？"],["黃部長彥男：後面末三碼是沒辦法造假的，因為蓋台的那個假的基地站不知道你的手機，也就是他沒辦法去……"],["蔡委員其昌：好，如果我前面不要出現「111」，但是在簡訊內容出現「111」加你手機的末三碼，這有沒有可能是假的？"],["黃部長彥男：如果不是「111」就都要懷疑。"],["蔡委員其昌：我的意思是說，在簡訊內容的第一行是「111」加上你的手機末三碼，這也可能是假的簡訊，因為這個可以造假。"],["黃部長彥男：最主要是前面就一定要是「111」，後面才是你的末三碼。"],["蔡委員其昌：OK，我懂你的意思了，所以是兩個都要啦！"],["黃部長彥男：兩個都要。"],["蔡委員其昌：好吧，那請你們趕快照這樣的方向去宣導。"],["黃部長彥男：我們會去宣導。"],["蔡委員其昌：否則的話，你看，你們記者會都開完了，我還是搞不大懂，所以我今天特別把它詢問清楚，因為這個對反詐很重要。"],["黃部長彥男：沒錯，謝謝委員的建議。"],["蔡委員其昌：第二個，我看了一下你們網路詐騙通報查詢網，部長，請問這是幾月開始上線？正式版……"],["黃部長彥男：我們正式上線是5月15日。"],["蔡委員其昌：5月15日，所以到現在大概一個月。部長，目前這個查詢網的下載次數是多少？"],["黃部長彥男：將近一萬八，一萬八左右。"],["蔡委員其昌：你們對於一個月只有一萬多的下載次數感到滿意嗎？或者正常嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我們當然是希望能夠更多，因為現在才剛上架，我們會擴大宣傳，我們希望越多人下載越好，所以這個我們還需要再多去宣傳。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長，除了宣傳之外，我的感覺是這樣啦，這都是消費市場的概念，譬如我看了一下反詐相關app的下載次數，「警政服務」的app下載次數超過100萬次；台灣大哥大的「反詐戰警」也超過10萬次；「Whoscall」的下載次數超過5,000萬次；中華電信的「中華網安助手」也超過5萬次。部長，你有沒有研究過這些app跟你的app的差異是什麼？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，第一點，他們這些app都已經有一段時間了，而我們的……"],["蔡委員其昌：時間嘛！時間是一個。"],["黃部長彥男：對，因為我們正式上架的時間是5月15日嘛，我想我們會再努力，我們當然希望越多人下載越好，這個我們會再去宣傳。"],["蔡委員其昌：好。"],["黃部長彥男：目標當然是希望能夠有更多民眾下載，像委員簡報資料顯示的，像「反詐戰警」或者是「警政服務」的下載次數都超過10萬次嘛，這是我們下一個目標。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長，我的意思是這樣啦，我希望我猜得不對啦，我希望我接下來的發言猜不對，我們下一個月在這裡，我認為你的下載次數還是差不多，這個數字差距不了太遠啦，我的感覺是這樣，我的邏輯很簡單，我覺得這就是市場嘛，我們政府沒有從市場的角度來看，簡單講，當你這個app非常好用的時候，你不用宣傳，大家會幫你宣傳。大家會不斷的告訴自己的親友，你要下載這一個，老人家不會下載，我會回家找我媽媽幫他的手機下載好，為什麼？太好用了！所以關鍵就是你的東西內容是什麼。","那我為什麼問你其他的？其實我的意思就是說，譬如說我舉例，這裡面搞不好有些app是要收費的，對不對？有些是要收費的，對不對？我們的不用嘛？"],["林署長俊秀：不用。"],["蔡委員其昌：對。我剛剛念的一大堆app，有可能是要收費的嘛，譬如說Whoscall可能要收費，我不知道那個反詐戰警要不要收費，聽說也要，台哥大的那一個app……"],["林署長俊秀：B2B。"],["蔡委員其昌：對、對、對。那他收費的服務內容，我們可不可以做得到？譬如說我舉例，有來電的時候，反詐戰警app會告訴你，現在打來的這個電話可能是詐騙，或者可能是銀行的推銷，他會直接在你電話響的同時就提醒你。部長，他們的data哪裡來的？台灣大哥大的data，為什麼他知道這一個手機的號碼是有疑慮，或者他直接告訴你，這個手機號碼是某某銀行的客服，或者某某銀行的什麼推銷的銷售員打來的，他的data來自哪裡？"],["黃部長彥男：電信公司本來就有一些客戶的資料。"],["蔡委員其昌：對。如果他知道這個是詐騙，那他後端的data是不是來自政府？譬如說他確定這個是詐騙。"],["黃部長彥男：他那個資料是來自165情資交換的……"],["蔡委員其昌：我們的也是來自政府各單位嘛，我們的app。"],["黃部長彥男：我們的app，第一個，我們有些是自己掃描的，就是AI去掃描的，然後有一些情資也是來自民眾的通報，另外也有跟165警政署有些合作。"],["蔡委員其昌：對、對、對，所以，部長，我簡單講，因為時間的關係，結論就是說，數發部應該弄清楚這些每一個單位，到底他的app為什麼大家會覺得好用。因為我們是政府，我們是打詐的最前線，我們是代表這個國家的力量在處理詐騙，所以我們要想盡各種可能，無論叫AI去掃描，無論是民眾檢舉，無論來自警政署，或是無論來自數發部的什麼檢舉的東西，反正只要這個國家裡面，對方可以取得的，我們一定可以取得嘛。就是這些好用的app可以取得的data，數發部哪一個不可以取得，你告訴我，我不相信啦！你是打詐最前線，你就代表國家在打詐，所以你的app邏輯上應該是全臺灣最好用的app。"],["黃部長彥男：不過委員，有件事可能稍微要說明一下，像警政署很多資料已經確定是詐騙，我們處理的是還不確定是詐騙時的通報，所以在這個時候我們要稍微……"],["蔡委員其昌：不、不、不，你現在不懂我的意思。你們是一個檢舉網站也沒有關係，就是你的功能應該是，不確定我也可以查詢……"],["黃部長彥男：對，現在目的是這樣。"],["蔡委員其昌：然後最好能夠做到，你確定的事情，當民眾接到來電的時候，直接就能告訴民眾。"],["黃部長彥男：我們剛剛就講，確定的當然沒有問題，我們會直接通報……"],["蔡委員其昌：不、不、不……"],["黃部長彥男：但是不確定的……"],["蔡委員其昌：我的意思是說為什麼你不可以做到，詐騙電話打來，你們確定這個是詐騙電話的時候，為什麼你不可以直接像其他app的功能，可以順便提醒民眾這個電話有疑慮？"],["黃部長彥男：我們那個網頁，當民眾檢舉過的那個網址確定是詐騙，下一個詢問的時候，我們就會跟他說這是詐騙，沒有問題。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，你是被動的等下一個詢問你……"],["黃部長彥男：對，但是在第一次發生的時候，因為這個電腦……"],["蔡委員其昌：不、不、不，我們分兩塊，一塊就是你的app讓人家檢舉……"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：第二個就是你們主動提醒所有全臺灣人說，這個電話有問題。"],["黃部長彥男：我們主要是網站嘛，主動提醒這個我……"],["林次長宜敬：因為我們現在的那個網詐通報查詢網，跟剛剛委員講到那些電話處理的不一樣，我們處理的是網址而不是電話。電話會有來電方，因為沒辦法把來電方的電話馬上封鎖，所以他們會用提醒民眾的方法……"],["蔡委員其昌：對、對。"],["林次長宜敬：我們的方法是直接就叫Meta把那個有問題的直接下架了。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒有問題，對，你們有公權力可以去做後段的執行。我的意思是說，你的網站要好用，這些民間app的功能，為什麼他可以下載到，譬如說Whoscall為什麼可以下載5,000萬次，我只是要你們用腦筋去想一想，人家是做了什麼，為何有辦法讓大家都要下載，還要付錢耶！為什麼？我現在要打詐，我自己還要付錢，也有很多人要付，因為數據顯示它有5,000萬次的下載嘛，why？為什麼我們數發部不來問問說，我們開發這個網站跟市場怎麼競爭，為什麼它可以，它的功能是什麼，它的data有可能就來自政府部門嘛。所以我剛剛講過，哪一個部門的data你們獲取不了？","分兩塊，一塊是現有我知道這一群這個就是可疑的；第二個就是我還不知道，等著大家來檢舉。你們現在一直在跟我講等著大家來檢舉的部分，我的意思是要你們處理，檢舉也應該要讓大家檢舉，但現有的你也可以提醒大家。你就是全臺灣打詐的灘頭堡、急先鋒，你拿政府的預算在做這些事情，你為什麼不開發一個讓人家下載，全臺灣你根本不用宣傳嘛，每一個人都會幫你宣傳，因為你太好用了，打詐太有效了，為什麼？"],["黃部長彥男：委員的建議，我們回去再研究他們的作法……"],["蔡委員其昌：好。"],["黃部長彥男：但是我剛才講就是說，我們現在是看到詐騙網站就要他下架，根本不希望民眾再看到……"],["蔡委員其昌：這個我沒問題嘛，你讓他下架，我檢舉了你發現，對，你就讓他下架，因為你有公權力嘛，其他人不可以叫他下架是因為其他人沒有公權力。但其他人為什麼會有那麼多人願意下載他的app……"],["黃部長彥男：這個我們再去精進。"],["蔡委員其昌：你不做這個，不然你相信我，我們幾個月之後坐在這裡還是在講說，怎麼下載量也還在一、兩萬……"],["黃部長彥男：好，我們再看看這些……"],["蔡委員其昌：部長，你懂我的意思喔？"],["黃部長彥男：有，我們再回去……"],["蔡委員其昌：我是提醒你們可以這樣做，應該要這樣做，這樣的話不用宣傳，你也不用開記者會宣傳你的app，全臺灣的人都會主動，每個人爭相下載你的app，好不好？謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝委員的建議。"],["主席：現在請葛如鈞委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":442,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-16","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","林國成","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","邱若華","蔡其昌","葛如鈞","劉書彬","黃健豪","張雅琳","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","葉元之","魯明哲","廖先翔","游顥","王鴻薇","何欣純","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":379,"meetingDate":["2025-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1146001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146001_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男就「推動 AI 之產業發展政策」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146001_00016"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}