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這樣就是作為提供所以第一端也是要先這樣釐清再來看後面的方法 到時候要走管理委員會的方式還是要去走訴訟那這個要朝這兩個方向再去做判斷"},{"start":290.798,"end":294.643,"text":"因為 市長 本來是跟你說這個案件的時候 他們也有訴訟過他們查開 聽到發言的時候 這裡過路的排水的地方 經營他們的"},{"start":307.697,"end":315.3,"text":"所以不是公司的筆,大家會使用,對啦,所以這樣說實在頭很痛,所以在這個過程當中,我覺得未來我們應該要再做好,不然像你說的,要處理的時候,大家怎麼知道什麼問題啦"},{"start":331.138,"end":334.46,"text":"因為我今天來檸檬,就是最近都有一段,我們有的公益,那在拉皮的寬鬆的時候,那在賣賣,後來才知道有這個問題,那剛才書長說的說,他就趕緊管理委員會來,那管理委員會有的,就是有的公益,就完全沒有管理委員會來,這個要吃了啦,像嘉義,"},{"start":359.172,"end":360.113,"text":"聯義國債也是感謝署長的用心跟地方的機關的配合跟去那裏說給他們聽跟最近他們跟成立所以聯義國債的時候"},{"start":376.608,"end":382.989,"text":"是有教育 像署長說的 大家都不知道法規是什麼所以在這裡也感謝署長 管理到加2.7如果這些大樓的開水 讓他們可以早日來升立管理委員會升立管理委員會的好處很多你要做什麼 都依管理委員會來開會"},{"start":405.458,"end":409.88,"text":"像我們要申請中央的補助 申請地方的補助也是一定要有管理大樓才有辦法去申請補助的所以在這裡來講 我覺得有幾位 幾位管理委員會也需要我們的署長跟地方多多去配合像我自己是"},{"start":433.288,"end":437.411,"text":"他們有申請的720多檔,你也知道他們還有很多本身要跟你說,因為這時候的時間也夠了,但是這個非常要緊,非常重要要跟你討論的是,圍爐,圍爐的時候你們有說到"},{"start":458.4,"end":467.745,"text":"我們的期間的兩檔讓他們去定期,讓他們去處理,可以如何去改善,但是在本社所了解,兩檔的時間,少一個年,可以過了,在這個月就夠了,師長你知道嗎?"},{"start":479.043,"end":488.527,"text":"因為你們都在一流的開始 但你們未來 因為像我剛才自己說的 自己說的大流的 久的都差不多在七流左右 孫長 你說有這個機會說 未來也要"},{"start":497.37,"end":503.152,"text":"整樓還沒停機嗎?有這個機會嗎?來,首長,你回答謝謝委員,因為現在目前進行到這個時候早期公寓的一些問題,就比較陳柯難以解決的包括說,管理委員很難成立有的,就像我所說的公社的問題開始變得很複雜的時候,我們有注意到,現在"},{"start":524.221,"end":527.625,"text":"要進行 後面要進行 要定期下去這個速度已經慢很多了所以這個部分 我想我們內部再來檢討看是不是再來協助大家放寬一個期限然後再看看大家實務上的困難我們就等一下再來討論看看看是不是大家遇到的問題看要怎麼來改"},{"start":543.302,"end":545.285,"text":"幫助我們這個大樓可以把這個管理組織來加速來成立,我想這個部分我們會不久來檢討市長在這裡本身要跟你說,剛才聽到你一句話說會加定"},{"start":559.059,"end":562.182,"text":"來檢討 在這兩天的過程 我覺得這非常重要因為我們不要說發生事情 還要來做什麼 要做什麼那些都不會有啦 都不好啦 還會發生事情 知道會有的時候就要來處理啦 跟在剛才"},{"start":579.8,"end":582.842,"text":"我們有說到租金補貼的問題啦 大家開心一點啦 開心不開心啦我選多少啦 你選多少啦 比較什麼人選最多 最開心啦現在說實在啦 你們要等租金補貼的時候 雖然是80年以前"},{"start":604.377,"end":606.998,"text":"還有電影製作權沒有不對但是在這幾年裡面都是中央全額補助的那你現在還要再說回來電影也要補助電影就一般補助你說實在不管是中央這裡的人、外人怎麼生電影也很難過的"},{"start":632.915,"end":635.778,"text":"最主要本省的意見就是你們中央跟地方政府要說好賣社的權益賣社的補助一家又不能走因為像我剛才說的"},{"start":651.383,"end":655.525,"text":"他們的自償是15%我們百貨公司的經濟要自償30%跟北市的租金跟去社廷工作已經很難做了跟北市最近都說跟中央生的"},{"start":672.619,"end":676.563,"text":"不知道有沒有啦 跟什麼中央的黑白部 黑白衫 到底投革命是怎樣就是你們當時是不要在內政補助兩百三十八億 又沒有這個事情啦"},{"start":693.976,"end":708.623,"text":"所以署長,本席在這裏說,白社所創造的,要補貼的,你們中央和地方要去說好,白社的管理,白社的補貼絕對不可以走,以上感謝委員,這靠我們不會去減少租金補貼戶的一個權益,這是我們行業部標準"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":320,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（9時58分）主席，我們請署長。部長，你那邊坐一下、休息一下，再幫我記一下我的意見，謝謝。"],["主席：有請吳署長。"],["吳署長欣修：委員好。"],["王委員美惠：署長早。署長，我代表嘉義市民表達感謝長久以來對我們嘉義市社會住宅的用心。說實在的，本席一直追啊追、跑啊跑，東區的社會住宅在昨天也已經動土了……"],["吳署長欣修：對，安寮好室。"],["王委員美惠：在這裡也感謝你們的用心。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員。"],["王委員美惠：雖然錢都中央出的，不過也要地方的幫忙，我們才有辦法有這種成果，所以未來嘉義市的建設還需要署長的幫忙。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員長期支持我們這些預算。"],["王委員美惠：這一定支持的啦！署長，我先跟你說公設點交的問題。因為公設點交的問題，電視上也有播，有的17天就點完了，有的一、兩年還沒點交完，在這個過程當中，說實在的，對百姓來說，就如剛才召委張宏陸所說的，一開始沒有什麼問題，大家高興不已要住進新房子，所以這些問題都不會存在，當有一天電梯壞了，或是所有東西，像是電燈要換、修理，尤其最慘的就是沒點交，有的舊公寓，現在有些建商會留一戶、留兩戶，若沒有點交，以前房子後面的排水、公設比都是在建商的手中，最近才發覺建商要賣這間房子的時候，要跟那個地方一起賣，新買這間房子的人說：你們經過我的排水區，這塊地是我的，你們要跟我租。署長，他們買二、三十年了，也不知道當初沒有點交，現在換了新的買主才說：如果水經過我們那邊，因為我們都還沒做污水下水道，現在水流過就一定要跟他們收錢，因為這塊地是我們的。署長，這問題很大，本席要跟你請教，這個問題要怎麼解決？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，你說的是早期約在民國六十、七十年代的老公寓，過去他們都有這種問題，建商蓋完房子之後並沒有完全點交，有一部分是認作法空。"],["王委員美惠：對。"],["吳署長欣修：如果當時這個法空跟住戶沒有談清楚，這部分是屬於法空，他們有的願意把法空點交出來給大家共有，但當時有的卻把法空留在他的手上……"],["王委員美惠：對啦，署長，我現在說的就是這個問題。"],["吳署長欣修：他後續要併另一塊地一起做，之後再一起釋出，目前這部分最重要的是要先去了解原本那一張使照上面的登記，到底是要給大家當作公有的公設還是他個人專有的部分？所以這部分第一個要在法律上先趕快釐清，釐清以後，如果確實在公寓大廈的認定裡面還是有機會屬於共有，當然就趕快成立管理委員會去處理這一塊，否則依照過去的經驗，他可能把它當作自己的法空下去處理，這樣就很麻煩……"],["王委員美惠：對，署長，這樣……"],["吳署長欣修：第一段要先這樣釐清，再來看後面的方法，到時候要走公寓大廈管理委員會的方式，還是要走訴訟，要朝這兩個方向去做判斷。"],["王委員美惠：署長，本席跟你說的這個案件，他們也有訴訟過，他們到法院查起來才發現，經過的排水區是他們的，不是留給大家使用的公設。"],["吳署長欣修：變成是他們個人留的法空。"],["王委員美惠：對，所以這樣實在很令人頭痛，我覺得未來應該要再做好一點，不然就像你說的，大家在買房子的時候怎麼會知道有什麼問題？今天我會問你這些就是因為最近有一些舊公寓在拉皮、翻修，買賣之後才知道有這個問題。剛才署長說要趕快成立管理委員會，但有的舊公寓完全沒有管理委員會，這才是麻煩的地方。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["王委員美惠：像嘉義的仁義國宅，感謝署長的用心以及地方議員的配合，去那邊說明給他們聽，到最近他們才成立管委會。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["王委員美惠：仁義國宅處理了很久很久，像署長說的，大家都不知道法規是什麼，這裡也很感謝署長願意到嘉義市說明，讓嘉義的大樓可以早日成立管理委員會，成立管理委員會的好處很多，要做什麼都透過管理委員會來開會，像是申請中央的補助、申請地方的補助，也一定要有管理委員會的大樓才有辦法去申請補助，所以我覺得舊的管理委員會也需要署長跟地方多多配合，像我們嘉義市，有申請的就只有七百二十幾棟，你也知道還有很多大樓。","本席要跟你說，雖然時間快到了，但這個非常重要，本席要跟你討論危樓，提到危樓，你們給他們兩年的時間，讓他們去登記、處理，這部分可以如何改進？據本席所了解，兩年的時間，咻一下，馬上就過了，這個月就到兩年了……"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["王委員美惠：署長，你知道嗎？因為你們都以11樓的開始……"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["王委員美惠：像我們住在嘉義市的，嘉義市的舊大樓都差不多在7樓左右。署長，你們有沒有計畫，未來從幾樓開始登記，有這個計畫嗎？署長，請你回答一下。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，確實目前進行的階段，對於早期公寓的一些沉痾、難以解決的問題，包括管理委員會很難成立的問題……"],["王委員美惠：我剛才就是說這個……"],["吳署長欣修：像剛才說的公設問題，當它開始變得很複雜的時候，我們有注意到，確實現在要執行、要登記的速度已經慢很多了，針對這個部分，我們內部會再檢討，看是不是協助大家放寬期限，然後再看看大家實務上的困難，我們會和地方政府討論看看，看大家實務上遇到的問題，要怎麼幫助這些大樓，可以把管理組織加速成立，這部分我們內部會再做檢討。"],["王委員美惠：署長，本席在此要跟你說的是，剛才我有聽到你說了一句話，你們會跟地方來檢討……"],["吳署長欣修：會做檢討。"],["王委員美惠：我覺得這非常重要，我們不要發生事情之後才要做什麼、做什麼，那都來不及了、都沒用了，要在還沒發生事情之前，知道危險的時候就要處理了。","剛才我們有提到租金補貼的問題，大家高興不已，我刪多少、你刪多少，比誰刪最多、最高興。說實在的，現在你們要給地方租金補貼，雖然111年以前地方有自籌款，不過這幾年都是中央全額補助的，現在你們又要改回去，認為地方也要補助，地方就是一般補助……說實在的，不管中央這些厲害的人怎麼刪，地方也很難過……本席最主要的意見是，中央跟地方政府要談好，百姓的權利、百姓的補助一塊都不能少。"],["吳署長欣修：了解，跟委員報告，這是大原則……"],["王委員美惠：因為像我們嘉義就要自籌15%，別縣市如果經濟比較差的要自籌30%，百姓對於申請這樣的租金就已經很鬱悶、很難過了。最近地方都說是中央刪的，他們不知道有沒有刪，說什麼中央亂搞、隨便刪，到底事情是怎樣？就是當初他們不要刪內政部補助的238億，就沒這些事了。所以署長，本席在這裡要說，百姓所爭取的、要補貼的，你們中央跟地方要去講好，百姓的權利、百姓的補貼絕對不能少。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，我們會確實照這個方向，不會去減少租金補貼戶的權益。"],["王委員美惠：所以要跟地方講。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["王委員美惠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王美惠委員的質詢。","下一位請黃捷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-26","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","麥玉珍","黃建賓","李柏毅","吳琪銘","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李坤城","謝龍介","黃國昌","王育敏","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃健豪","高金素梅","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2025-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1146201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146201_00014"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、行政院消費者保護處處長就「公寓大廈公設點交爭議及其處理與預防作\n為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、「住宅法」：(一)繼續審查委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「住宅法\n第四條條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」\n案、(三)繼續審查委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「住宅法第二十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查\n委員林岱樺等17人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草案」案、(五)繼續審查委員賴士葆等17人\n擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案、( 六) 繼續審查委員牛煦庭等16 人擬具\n「住宅法第十條及第五十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)繼續審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「住\n宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(八)繼續審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「住宅法第十五條及第二十\n三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 九) 繼續審查委員羅智強等16 人擬具「住宅法第二十五條條文修正草\n案」案、(十)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)繼續審查委\n員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十二)繼續審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具\n「住宅法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案、(十三)繼續審查委員林思銘等21人擬具「住宅法部\n分條文修正草案」案、( 十四) 繼續審查委員李坤城等24 人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」\n案、(十五)繼續審查委員徐欣瑩等26人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)繼續審查委\n員馬文君等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十七)繼續審查委員高金素梅等27人擬\n具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、(十八)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「住宅法\n第二條條文修正草案」案、(十九)繼續審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「住宅法第二十二條及第二十\n三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二十) 繼續審查委員林倩綺等23 人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(二十一)審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(二十二)審查委員\n陳素月等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(二十三)審查委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「住\n宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、( 二十四) 審查委員許宇甄等20 人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(二十五)審查委員范雲等17人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十六)審查委員\n林月琴等19人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十七)審查委員楊曜等22人擬具「住宅法\n第二十五條條文修正草案」案、(二十八)審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「住宅法第四條、第十五條\n及第二十三條條文修正草案」案、(二十九)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正\n草案」案、(三十)審查委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(三十一)審查\n委員蘇巧慧等17 人擬具「住宅法部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 三十二) 審查委員羅明才等16 人擬具\n「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(三十三)審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「住宅法增訂第四條之\n一條文草案」案、(三十四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「住宅法第四條、第十九條及第二十條條\n文修正草案」案、(三十五)審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(三\n十六)審查委員游顥等17人擬具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案、(三十七)審查委員羅智強等\n16人擬具「住宅法第四十條及第四十三條條文修正草案」案、(三十八)審查委員葉元之等19人擬\n具「住宅法第四條條文修正草案」案【進行專題報告及詢答，並宣讀住宅法第 ( 二十一) 案至第\n(三十八)案提案條文】","agenda_id":"1146201_00015"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}