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15:10:18","會議時間":"2025-06-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查：\n一、行政院函請審議「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員何欣純等19人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第四條、第六條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員羅美玲等16人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法修正草案」案。(詢答)\n（第一案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查。））","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.83659375,"end":3.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.31721875,"end":7.236593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.83159375,"end":8.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.08034375,"end":9.126593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.114093750000002,"end":9.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.869093750000001,"end":10.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.505968750000001,"end":14.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.062843750000003,"end":12.974093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.974093750000002,"end":13.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.04159375,"end":13.058468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.336593750000002,"end":17.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.37034375,"end":15.960968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.59784375,"end":18.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.40784375,"end":19.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.656593750000003,"end":19.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.79159375,"end":22.187843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.825343750000002,"end":20.297843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.774093750000002,"end":23.976593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.617843750000002,"end":24.887843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.95096875,"end":27.520343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.73971875,"end":29.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.372218750000002,"end":41.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.84846875,"end":33.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.93284375,"end":34.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.00034375,"end":34.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.290343750000005,"end":51.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.65971875,"end":55.515968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.258468750000006,"end":57.102218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.51971875,"end":63.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.924718750000004,"end":58.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.97534375,"end":59.211593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.50659375,"end":62.400968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.51471875000001,"end":65.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.55659375,"end":67.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.05409375,"end":72.47534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.08284375000001,"end":75.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.98096875,"end":78.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.19159375000001,"end":80.25471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.28409375000001,"end":85.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.60409375,"end":88.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.74284375,"end":92.69159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.01221875,"end":93.95721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.35784375,"end":96.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.14659375000001,"end":97.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.14221875000001,"end":101.36534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.86721875,"end":103.44096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.13284375,"end":104.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.21284375,"end":106.39409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.94221875000001,"end":112.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.82346875,"end":114.79784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.04659375000001,"end":122.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.03721875000001,"end":122.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.57721875000001,"end":122.84721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.37034375,"end":124.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.37034375,"end":124.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.58534375,"end":126.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.63596875,"end":124.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.66971875,"end":124.70346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.70346875000001,"end":124.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.97346875000001,"end":125.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.91846875,"end":125.96909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.96909375000001,"end":126.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.53846875,"end":136.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.68471875,"end":140.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.39284375,"end":142.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.36721875,"end":145.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKE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我要請問主委 這個當然兩岸關係這個高科技戰很重要我們對他們的這個出口管制早就該做了 但是是單向的進口管制有沒有 比方說我們的半導體廠商跟這個中興華為去投片去投單 這個有沒有管制 或者有沒有必要管制"},{"start":108.993,"end":135.496,"text":"現在是單項嘛現在國貿署公布是單項現在雙項是不是也應該去考慮跟委員報告目前各國的出口管制制度原則上都是管制出口但是進口是比較特殊的狀況才會管中國是特殊的國家啦你如果跟他們投片買他們東西他裡面如果有什麼做什麼手腳這個有可能啊"},{"start":136.812,"end":155.918,"text":"所以也對本土的企業會造成影響同樣在國內有生產當然他們會用他們的低價策略或者是國家補助造成他的競爭優勢但是我們要做適度的管制主委您贊成嗎"},{"start":159.697,"end":183.951,"text":"這個我是贊成的 我想我會把委員的意見反映到經濟部 實話 面板他們是複製台灣的經驗 然後用國家補貼 然後再加上這個低價競爭他就是用這個量來衝到他的這個市場占有率接著下一步就是伸手製程 實話說是也面臨很大的危機啊"},{"start":184.791,"end":211.344,"text":"沒錯所以這個我覺得應該對國內廠商對中國的比如說中興華為的頭片應該有所管制或者有點限制好那因為經濟部很多問題都沒有沒有一個經濟部的主管可以回答經紀部今天只有只有投審室跟投訴室好我先問一下主委第一個問題請教就是說Talent Taiwan"},{"start":214.205,"end":231.277,"text":"這個國際人才的研覽中心你要有一定的資料而且要精準就是說對海外的人才這個資料庫一定要很精準所以目前您對這個目前這個相關資料庫您的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":232.877,"end":251.64,"text":"我們現在的確過去我們對這個資料的掌握度是精準度是不足的所以我們在這次修法裡面我們就放進來就是希望我們能夠有比較能夠掌握到這些人員相關的資料包括去向那等等資料的取得"},{"start":252.341,"end":279.441,"text":"那我們如果能夠得到大院的同意之後我們就會可以依法來取得這些資料來來做分析跟管理因為資料庫的目的是要完整而且要精確才能發揮它的功能嘛那第一個不夠完整第二個不夠精確對所以這部分我想請國安會繼續再加強這一部分那第二個問題請教主委就是說當然我們這個攬財專法我是覺得只解決部分的問題那這個"},{"start":282.233,"end":306.173,"text":"我上一屆我有提案新經濟移民法神經刑罪也把它列為優先法案我覺得新經濟移民法是比較全面的我也跟你請教過好幾次為什麼不把新經濟移民法一個完整的法律配套能夠來推動一方面可以解決人才專法的問題二方面其他的相關產業也會有解決缺工的問題"},{"start":310.857,"end":317.022,"text":"所以這部分主委您的看法怎麼樣這個我們是有討論過因為現在當時在早年在經濟移民法之後就分開來處理了對於中階勞工的部分勞動部現在有救福法最近他們也在做一些優化"},{"start":332.435,"end":353.07,"text":"所以就從中階人才到一般勞工到白領就這三個地方是完整的分布就兩個部會合作就可以達到所以你分散到這個不同部會去主政就沒有一個統合機關那你的績效考核也沒有辦法去做到位所以我當初為什麼主張要新基民嘛就是由國發會來做統籌"},{"start":356.115,"end":371.921,"text":"來做這個相關的這個進度或者是這個執行狀況的考核那現在分散到各部會各部會執行狀況也沒有很完整也沒有很一致所以未來有沒有可能再繼續推動新基金運法"},{"start":374.751,"end":397.622,"text":"這件事是我們這個當然要看後面的滾動式的調整所以這個事情是還是在開放的態度中但是回過來講現在我們原來的想法是說這樣速度很快因為我們負責白領的部分然後勞動部負責藍領跟灰領的部分"},{"start":398.843,"end":427.697,"text":"阻擇清楚那大家動作就可以減少一層溝通與協調避免在跨部會協調中的力道不足但是您所提的部分我們現在是我們持開放意見來看這件事不同的部會負責不同的業務它分散不同委員會如果集中在新進民法就是在國會主管國會應該是從宏觀的角度去看這個國際移工或者勞動力缺乏的問題"},{"start":429.076,"end":439.146,"text":"而不是由各部會來我想這個部分再找時間再討論其實除了除了主委之外其他其他請回那是不是我請勞動部勞動部代表來勞動部這個"},{"start":448.416,"end":465.782,"text":"缺工的問題我覺得百工百業都面對的缺工有時候是一個勞動力不足是一個國家安全的問題所以這部分特別是傳統製造業傳統製造業就是3K的部分中南部都是傳統製造業"},{"start":468.487,"end":487.985,"text":"這個真的是找不到這個勞動力年輕人平時的想法我不要去那種相對比較不好的工作環境比較辛苦的工作環境他選擇比較薪水低但是工作環境比較好選擇服務業所以第一個低薪問題沒辦法解決第二個勞動力傳統產業的勞動力永遠是缺乏所以這個製造業這個"},{"start":493.686,"end":514.721,"text":"百工百業都是缺工所以這種情況之下當然會影響到這個傳送產業競爭力有一個規定就是說3K5級表那是幾年前十幾年前制定3K5級表所以有分5級的部分就按照不同產業類別它有移工合配的比例那我也曾經"},{"start":516.23,"end":534.809,"text":"跟行政院長說明過這部分是不是有檢討的必要比如說行業的類別可以可以升級或者是可以不像說從B級到A級或者是全部這五級的比例足以增加比如說Aplus我們從35到40"},{"start":539.293,"end":561.905,"text":"A從25到30這個比例可以去調整可以去計算這個不要影響到國內的勞動力市場所以這個部分我想我也跟很多產業都有討論過他們都希望說能夠在整個3K五級表這部分可以做一些調整從國安會角度或者勞動部的立場各位的看法呢這個主委"},{"start":565.47,"end":580.063,"text":"就我們的看法能夠讓台灣的勞動率能夠充足是很重要的事情那這個其實我們也一直有在溝通勞動部我想勞動部也有一些作為好 勞動部的看法呢"},{"start":581.704,"end":605.681,"text":"是 謝謝委員那目前製造業已經有3K5集市再加一個附加就安定費可以提高比例的制度那我想這個制度也實施一段期間我們會再跟經濟部跟國發會我們會持續的再來檢討說是不是有一些地方可以再加一段附加是解決部分的問題的你要全面解決你所說的所有傳統製造業的問題你就是從比例上去做增加"},{"start":606.882,"end":617.308,"text":"這個可以精算 沒有你增加1% 2%會對國內勞動力市場形成什麼影響對移工增加會多少數量能不能解決這個勞動力缺乏的問題我覺得這個應該及時去啟動檢討這個3K5機制"},{"start":625.093,"end":643.21,"text":"谢谢委员的建议,那我们会再跟经济部来整体的来思考,就包括本国劳工也要照顾,那在合备比例上面是不是也可以做一些检讨?好,谢谢因为我时间也到了,大家辛苦了,谢谢,谢谢周委。好,谢谢委员。好,谢谢,谢谢邱志伟委员。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1408,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（14時59分）好，謝謝主席。是不是請國發會劉主委、經濟部江次長、投審司蘇司長？"],["主席：請以上的官員。"],["邱委員志偉：投審司蘇司長，不是投促司。"],["主席：經濟部次長下午不在，投審司司長在。"],["邱委員志偉：好，投審司司長也不在？"],["主席：在，投審司在，只有次長不在。"],["邱委員志偉：投促不用了，投審就好了。"],["主席：好，請投審司代理司長。"],["邱委員志偉：第一個問題請教一下主委跟司長，因為今天次長不在，我們把華為跟中芯列為出口的管制名單，就是說對於戰略性高科技的出口管制，我們一下子列了好幾個國家，其中包括中芯跟華為，這個司長您知道嗎？"],["蘇代理司長琪彥：跟委員報告，這個是出口管制的問題。"],["邱委員志偉：那是國貿署，但是今天經濟部代表是誰？司長沒來總要有個代表。"],["張專門委員儒臣：跟委員報告，我是國際貿易署貿易安全管理辦公室代表。"],["邱委員志偉：我今天要請教次長，但是次長不在，也沒有代理人。我為什麼提出這個問題？我想請問主委，當然兩岸關係高科技戰很重要，我們對於他們的出口管制早就該做了，但這是單向，請問進口管制有沒有？比方說我們的半導體廠商跟中芯、華為去投片、投單，這個有沒有管制？或者有沒有必要管制？現在國貿署公布的是單向，雙向是不是也應該去考慮？"],["張專門委員儒臣：跟委員報告，目前各國的出口管制制度，原則上都是管制出口，進口是比較特殊的狀況才會管。"],["邱委員志偉：我跟你講，中國是特殊的國家，你如果跟他們投片，買他們的東西，裡面如果有做什麼手腳，這個有可能啊！所以也會對本土的企業造成影響，如果同樣在國內有生產，他們會用低價策略或者是國家補助，形成他的競爭優勢，所以我們應該要做適度的管制，主委您贊成嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我是贊成的，我會把委員的意見反應到經濟部。"],["邱委員志偉：比方說石化、面板，他們是複製臺灣的經驗，然後用國家補貼，再加上低價競爭，他就是用量來衝高他的市場占有率，接著下一步就是成熟製程。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["邱委員志偉：成熟製程也面臨很大的危機啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯。"],["邱委員志偉：所以我覺得針對國內廠商對中國比如說中芯、華為的投片應該有所管制或者有點限制。因為今天很多問題，經濟部都沒有一個主管可以回答，只有投審司跟投促司。我先問一下主委，這個Talent Taiwan國際人才的延攬中心，你要有一定的資料而且要精準，就是說對海外的人才，資料庫一定要很精準，所以您對目前相關資料庫的看法怎麼樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：的確我們過去對資料的精準度是不足的，所以我們在這次修法放進來，希望比較能夠掌握到這些人員相關資料，包括去向等資料的取得。如果我們能夠得到大院的同意，之後我們就可以依法來取得這些資料做分析跟管理。"],["邱委員志偉：資料庫就是要完整，而且要精確，才能發揮它的功能，目前第一個不夠完整，第二個不夠精確，這部分我想請國發會繼續再加強。","第二個問題請教主委，我覺得這個攬才專法只解決部分的問題，上一屆我有提案新經濟移民法，行政院曾經也把它列為優先法案。我覺得新經濟移民法是比較全面的，我也跟你請教過好幾次，為什麼不推動有完整法律配套的新經濟移民法，一方面可以解決人才專法的問題，二方面也會解決其他相關產業缺工的問題，這部分主委您的看法怎麼樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們是有討論過，當時在新經濟移民法之後就分開來處理，對於中階勞工的部分，勞動部現在有就服法，最近他們也在做一些優化。所以從中階人才、一般勞工到白領，這三個地方是完整的分布，兩個部會合作就可以達到。"],["邱委員志偉：所以你分散到不同部會去主政，就沒有一個統合機關，那你的績效考核也沒有辦法做到位。我當初為什麼主張要新經濟移民法，就是由國發會來做統籌和相關進度或執行狀況的考核。你現在分散到各部會，各部會的執行狀況也沒有很完整一致，未來有沒有可能再繼續推動新經濟移民法？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們當然要看後面的狀況滾動式調整，所以還是持開放的態度。但是回過來講，我們原來的想法是這樣速度很快，因為我們負責白領的部分，勞動部負責藍領跟灰領的部分，主責清楚，大家就可以減少一層溝通與協調，避免在跨部會協調中的力道不足。但是您所提的部分，我們現在還是……"],["邱委員志偉：因為分散在不同委員會……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們持開放意見來看這件事。"],["邱委員志偉：您這樣講，不同的部會負責不同的業務，分散在不同委員會，如果集中在新經濟移民法，就是由國發會主管。國發會應該是從宏觀的角度去看國際移工或勞動力缺乏的問題，而不是由各部會來，我想這個部分找時間再來討論。除了主委之外，其他人先請回，是不是請一下勞動部代表？"],["主席：請勞動部。"],["邱委員志偉：我覺得百工百業都面對缺工的問題，缺工有時候是勞動力不足，是一個國家安全的問題，特別是傳統製造業，像是三K的部分。主委，中南部都是傳統製造業，真的是找不到勞動力，年輕人的想法是不要去那種相對比較不好、比較辛苦的工作環境，他寧願選擇薪水比較低，但是工作環境比較好的服務業，所以低薪問題沒辦法解決，傳統產業的勞動力永遠缺乏。不止製造業，百工百業都是缺工，在這種情況之下，當然會影響到傳統產業的競爭力。","有一個規定是3K五級表，那個是十幾年前制定的3K五級表，所以有分五級的部分，按照不同產業類別，有移工核配的比例。我也曾經跟行政院院長說明過，這部分是不是有檢討的必要？譬如行業的類別可以升級，像是從B級到A級，或者是這五級的比例都酌予增加，譬如說A+是35到40，A是25到30，當然這個比例可以去調整及精算，不要影響到國內的勞動力市場。這部分我也跟很多產業座談和討論過，他們都希望能夠在3K五級表的部分做一些調整，從國發會角度或勞動部的立場，各位的看法呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：就我們的看法，能夠讓臺灣的勞動力充足是很重要的事情，其實我們也一直和勞動部溝通，我想勞動部也有一些作為。"],["邱委員志偉：好，勞動部的看法呢？"],["蘇組長裕國：是，謝謝委員。目前製造業已經有3K五級制，再加一個附加就業安定費可以提高比例的制度，我想這個制度也實施了一段期間，我們會再跟經濟部和國發會持續檢討，看看是不是有一些地方可以再做。"],["邱委員志偉：你這樣附加只是解決部分的問題，要全面解決所有傳統製造業的問題就是從比例上去做增加，這個可以精算。比方說你增加1%、2%，會對國內勞動力市場形成什麼影響？移工會增加多少數量？能不能解決勞動力缺乏的問題？我覺得應該及時去啟動檢討3K五級制。"],["蘇組長裕國：謝謝委員的建議，我們會再跟經濟部整體思考，包括本國勞工也要照顧，在核配比例上也可以做一些檢討。"],["邱委員志偉：謝謝，因為我的發言時間也到了，大家辛苦了，謝謝、謝謝召委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱志偉委員。","請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","請陳昭姿委員、陳昭姿委員、陳昭姿委員不在。","請羅美玲委員、羅美玲委員、羅美玲委員不在。","請林月琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,26,22-1","speakers":["蔡易餘","羅美玲","邱議瑩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","吳沛憶","張啓楷","林宜瑾","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","陳秀寳","呂玉玲","陳菁徽","劉建國","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳超明","黃秀芳","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅廷瑋","陳亭妃","張雅琳","范雲","郭昱晴","王正旭","蔡易餘","謝衣鳯","麥玉珍","邱志偉","林月琴","張嘉郡","陳昭姿","蘇清泉","柯志恩","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","王育敏"],"page_start":231,"meetingDate":["2025-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1146001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146001_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查：(一)行政院函請審議「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法修正草案」案、(二)本院委員何欣純等\n19人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條及第十四條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員陳\n亭妃等16 人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第四條、第六條及第十四條條文修正草案」案、\n(四)本院委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法修正草案」案、(五)本院委員羅美\n玲等16人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法修正草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1146001_00014"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}