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謝謝那我們接著請與會機關代表說明請司法院說明"},{"start":2434.036,"end":2436.839,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2465.806,"end":2485.689,"text":"第三十條的修正主要的目的就是要提高大法官的審理同意門檻也就是他的評議門檻從現在的二分之一提高到三分之二那麼在過去大法官審理案件法的時代那個時候也是三分之二出席三分之二的同意通過那在更早的時候"},{"start":2486.569,"end":2512.427,"text":"大法官審理案件法更早的時候的修法當時曾經有出現過四分之三的出席三分之二的通過所以呢我想說這一次的這個修法就像我之前所講的提高大法官評議門檻從二分之一到三分之二的目的就是要強化憲法法院的品質那麼讓整個憲法裁判的程序更加嚴謹所以以上的報告謝謝"},{"start":2515.964,"end":2518.507,"text":"法院法院法院法院法院法院法院"},{"start":2529.116,"end":2531.419,"text":"現法法庭是我們現在唯一有權解釋憲法,然後就人民跟機關在憲政秩序上面"},{"start":2546.118,"end":2551.2,"text":"要獲取終極救濟的這個最後途徑所以我們是認為說各憲政機關都有這個責任然後共同來維護憲法法庭的這個穩定運作那因為我們看一下這個修正草案則在第四條第30條第43條跟95條那麼我們擔心說就很有可能造成憲法法庭難以行使職權"},{"start":2569.048,"end":2569.688,"text":"委員翁曉玲等17人擬具"},{"start":2586.379,"end":2602.711,"text":"現有總額,大法官現有總額,限定在是指憲法正修條文第五條所定的這個大法官人數,也就是15人。那麼但是在對於說,如果大法官有辭任、死亡、出缺、認滿以後,沒有辦法及時產生新任大法官、繼任的時候,那麼限訴法"},{"start":2603.691,"end":2617.354,"text":"並沒有像其他我們這個書面後面有附各個其他國家的那麼像德國澳奧地利加拿大這些國家對這種情形都有一些因應了這個做法目前憲法並沒有這樣子這個規範那麼這種情形底下就會產生在這種情形底下憲法法庭的運作產生困難那人民的這個請求憲法的權力救濟就會產生很大的這個障礙"},{"start":2630.777,"end":2634.199,"text":"那如果在對照說我們現在憲法第十二條針對大法公迴避的時候不記錄線而總和會發生說修正草第四條跟十二條之間解釋上面的疑義當然之前有委員有講說十二條還是特別規定"},{"start":2646.484,"end":2646.965,"text":"法院司法及法律部長"},{"start":2664.019,"end":2666.52,"text":"議員翁曉玲等23人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第四十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等二十五條條文修正草案．請審議案．請審議"},{"start":2683.287,"end":2703.72,"text":"現有總額過半數提高到三分之二部分那這部分我們覺得說對憲法法庭的諮詢心思又增加了更更大的這個限制齁因為這樣子的修正草案比憲法訴訟改制以前的這個大法官會議時期規定是以出席大法官的三分之二的同意門檻更高因為以前是出席的人數三分之二就可以現在這個修正草案變成是現有總額三分之二"},{"start":2706.701,"end":2732.697,"text":"那我們覺得這樣子的限制可能跟違背說外界希望憲法法庭能夠修正的這個意見大家都知道我們憲法訴訟法這一個改成是原則過半數是2017年施改國事會議底下的這個建議因為當時原來的那個大法官會議審理案件法規定成是出席人員三十二的時候就造成說當出席的大法官"},{"start":2733.878,"end":2748.53,"text":"暫程跟反對都沒有達到三分之二的時候永遠一直沒有辦法一直沒有辦法達成共識那案件選了未決人民請求解釋憲法一直沒有辦法得到這個救濟所以才會施改國際秩序做成這個決議那施改國際秩序做成這個決議之後我們憲法訴訟法也配合這個去做修正"},{"start":2752.433,"end":2775.141,"text":"以這兩年的操作,確實有達到當初希望給人民憲法上全力有效救濟的這個目的。如果我們現在就修改回比原來更嚴格,會對憲法法庭的運作產生更大障礙。所以我們也是建議說這一部分能夠去維持。另外還有草案九十五條這個事情期間的部分,"},{"start":2776.801,"end":2781.365,"text":"好,謝謝。接下來我們請出席的黨團代表表示意見。好,那我們首先請民進黨代表表示意見。"},{"start":2799.901,"end":2824.012,"text":"首先我們對於今天由翁委員所提出的包括兩個部分一個是第四條和第九十五條另外是額數問題一個是將現有原總額改成法定總額一個是30條跟43條將評議人數做成決議要改成三分之二那其實關鍵還是在於現有總額的認定"},{"start":2828.394,"end":2848.846,"text":"是否以改為所謂的法定總額,那我們就自己翻。過去呢,在委員會討論的時候啊,也都不時的提出,那在這裡呢,還是要重複的來拿出來講。因為我們本來原來是希望說透過公聽會,那麼公聽會的話,現在建築於我們現在看到在我手上這一本啊,"},{"start":2850.052,"end":2870.308,"text":"這是當代法律所出的專刊那他這裡想說憲法法庭的現有總額就是這個專題為什麼這個題目會引發法律人這麼高度的關切不只要有這個專刊來討論甚至明天也有人法律人要透過實際的行動來表達"},{"start":2871.269,"end":2883.479,"text":"那麼至於當然言論自由大家各有立場但是呢法理上呢還是有一個基本的原則先從我們自己立法院來好了在我們自己立法院職權刑事法立職法當中的第四條"},{"start":2885.865,"end":2914.46,"text":"第一項,立法院會議須有立法委員總額三分之二出席,三分之一出席時的開會。任何的合一制的機關,成會的額數一定是法律規定,這個自不代言。但是,當我們自己立法院本身,所謂的立法委員總額三分之一,它的立法委員總額怎麼認定呢?它是以每會期實際報到的人數為計算標準,但是會期中辭職、去職或亡故者應檢除之。"},{"start":2915.2,"end":2939.85,"text":"所以我們都知道立法院目前依憲條文的規定我們的法定原額是113席這是剛性的規定但是實質上我們的總額呢會依實際報到那因為立法院有個特別的制度你當選為立法委員之後呢你每會期會有個實際報到實際報到後才能行使職權所以嚴格來講如果有委員"},{"start":2941.195,"end":2962.447,"text":"委員在會期開始來進行報導,我們的總額就會下降。總額下降之後,在會期中,若有人辭職、去職或死亡,還會再檢除。這是以便於整個立法院,它能夠運作它的現有的總額,它能夠有個計算的標準。"},{"start":2963.223,"end":2976.285,"text":"那如果說以立法院自己本身例子法這樣的規定那我們來看一看現在呢我們所討論的修改的憲法訴訟法其實呢憲法訴訟法是誠如剛剛司法院的報告"},{"start":2977.418,"end":2995.698,"text":"他實在一百零八年改為現在的憲法訴訟法之前在民國八十二年的時候是叫做司法院大法官審理案件法在那個時候第一次在立法院討論就對於現有總額做了很清楚的規定我們如果查到那時候立法院的公報"},{"start":2996.539,"end":3015.964,"text":"那時候以國民黨為多數的國會包括國民黨的提案就是很強調的包括那時候的司法院的廳長也是來說明啊秘書長對不起是秘書長也是說明說大法官在開會的時候向來都是以現有的總而就是指現有"},{"start":3016.684,"end":3031.354,"text":"那麽那時候為了處理這個現有呢還特別呢把原來大法官會議法當中把它明確的說是現有那因此呢當我們更動這個現有的時候呢會產生什麽問題在之前呢剛剛在我們司法院有聽到了齁"},{"start":3032.813,"end":3059.395,"text":"那麼為什麼要扣除這些依實際狀況不能夠來行使的規定那其實在其他國家如果說他的成會額數有剛性的規定那他一定有配套那這個配套呢其實在我們現在看來有些委員的看來呢這個配套啊就是所謂的萬年延任條款其實很多的會議的合議制呢他為了避免他的會議沒有辦法成會我舉一個議條哈因為"},{"start":3060.831,"end":3077.078,"text":"本席也剛好過去在國民大會還存在的時候當過國大代表那國大代表呢在我們憲法第28條他說每屆國民大會代表之任期自次屆國民大會開會之日為止啊"},{"start":3078.842,"end":3095.837,"text":"這個本來憲法本文規定國民大會原來的代表一任是六年但是呢偏偏呢他的任期呢必須到新次一屆的國民大會產生之日後原任的國民大會才會到任屆滿這為了確保國民大會作為國家的主權機關他不會有中斷"},{"start":3101.567,"end":3128.514,"text":"因為有這樣的綱性的規定所以呢當時國民大會當時政府來到臺灣之後啊國民大會才能依照這樣的一個視線的解釋能夠讓國民大會持續的維持一個開會的額數所以我們在說如果我們採用綱性的額數規定一定有配套的規定讓這些額數在運作的時候不會有中斷之餘那表現在我們最近的就是兩個"},{"start":3129.514,"end":3135.279,"text":"委員翁曉玲等23人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第四十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等23人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第三十五條條文修正草案．請審議案．請審議"},{"start":3150.25,"end":3154.431,"text":"委員翁曉玲等17人擬具 «憲法訴訟法第四十五條條文修正草案》案。．二、本院委員翁曉玲等17人擬具 «憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案。．請審議"},{"start":3168.795,"end":3183.052,"text":"必須有這樣的配套的設置,我們才能夠去用一個綱性的法定總額,而不是用現有總額。所以對於我們本案,目前我們看到的第四條,而且我們在過去也表達過,第四條它直接將"},{"start":3184.537,"end":3206.323,"text":"第三項,針列第三項,直接將以後憲訴法裡面所說的所謂的現有總額,就是指法定原額。那這一項加進去又很荒謬的,不是很反諷的呢,它這裡明明白白第四條的本意是什麼?憲法法庭審理規則由司法院定之,前項規則由全體大法官一決之。"},{"start":3207.663,"end":3231.702,"text":"就連第四條本身就很明白的說明了在憲法機關的分權上第四條核心他就告訴你整個憲法訴訟法跟他底下的審理規則都是由大法官自己來決定當然在法的位階上他是由立法院來完成但是立法院基於對其他憲法機關的尊重我們在第四條彰顯由大法官"},{"start":3233.503,"end":3256.783,"text":"自治治理的規則下面橫空而出一個第三項要硬是採行一個過去在82年我們制定在憲法訴訟法之前的前身的大法案案件審理法當中由當時的執政黨就明明白白說出了就是大法官的總額就是指現有總額要去改變這樣的規則實在是讓我們覺得非常的會讓外界疑慮啦"},{"start":3261.647,"end":3270.707,"text":"那至於說在另外三十條跟第四十三條是指參與評議的額數規定我想如果前面的這樣的一個三十條"},{"start":3273.017,"end":3296.251,"text":"第四條做成如此剛性的規定,卻沒有任何的配套。那麼後面呢,這根本就無從去適用。更不用說在我們幾次司法院的說明報告當中,都有提到這樣的一個倉促粗糙的修法呢,甚至連自己憲法訴訟法第十二條迴避的規定都沒有去勾改。目前憲法訴訟法十二條他說,依本法迴避之大法官不記錄現有總額之人數。"},{"start":3298.291,"end":3304.559,"text":"那這樣就如何去維持?如果你的現有總額在第四條用法定原額把它剛性的就是定為15席了,"},{"start":3305.185,"end":3327.598,"text":"那迴避的法官又不記錄在現有總額元素計算,那到底我們要用哪一個才是叫做法定總額,才是現有總額。現有總額變成法定總額是15名,那這15名到底要不要扣掉迴避的大法官,也完全沒有處理。所以呢,基本上這樣的一個認知,我們真的不曉得說,你在第四條加上了一個法定元額的剛性規定,又怎麼樣去適用12條迴避的規定。迴避的規定,"},{"start":3331.154,"end":3351.719,"text":"委員翁曉玲等23人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第四十五條條文修正草案案．一、本院司法及法制委員翁曉玲等19人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第十五條條文修正草案案．一、本院司法及法制委員翁曉玲等19人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第十五條條文修正草案案．一、本院司法及法制委員翁曉玲等19人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第十五條條文修正草案案．一、本院司法及法制委員翁曉玲等19人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第十五條條條文修正草案"},{"start":3359.361,"end":3360.302,"text":"委員翁曉玲等23人擬具"},{"start":3375.329,"end":3389.961,"text":"滿足社會對於憲法訴訟法充分的討論之後我想社會就必須採取他們之力救濟這也是我們所不樂見的所以我們希望今天的由國民黨召委所發起的黨團協商我們希望能夠就近的踩住煞車以上"},{"start":3392.233,"end":3394.194,"text":"謝謝趙偉我想今天的一個協商其實說他嚴肅也非常嚴肅但是說他"},{"start":3421.322,"end":3449.44,"text":"這個整個過程裏面修法可能是有點輕挑我相信在歐委員的提案裏面大家討論很久了他的正面意義他想表達的就是說多元的意見跟觀點避免這個削弱裁判的多元性跟公正性還有專業公信力我記得從大好綱會議到台灣37年的時候就有了"},{"start":3451.522,"end":3465.228,"text":"大法官會做成到現在去挑戰他的人不多不多不管是誰執政挑戰他的人都不多那以你去提到說要把整個法定總額這個把它放進去的話"},{"start":3466.616,"end":3476.669,"text":"我最擔心的就是說其實你假設的那種情況其實也從來沒有發生過啦什麼三四個人有辦法去做成判決這個從過去的實務上的一個運作從來就沒有發生過這種事"},{"start":3482.597,"end":3507.756,"text":"反倒是啊反倒是啊你把這個整額整個法令總額你把它放進去以後啊才會造成實質上來癱瘓掉整個憲法法庭以後的一個運作這個大家都明講啊這個大家都明講嘛但問題就是說當憲政機關之間產生爭議你到最後我相信最終的解鈴人一定是憲法法庭"},{"start":3508.496,"end":3523.932,"text":"那如果說人民的權益遭受到侵害你說要找誰當然你最後那一關也只是到憲法法庭去就是說發生人民的基本權利受到侵害或者有憲政爭議的時候你最後你還是要這個大官來做終局的一個裁判"},{"start":3531.004,"end":3557.5,"text":"那如果說你現在把按照你修法這樣子把這個整個原格這樣把它固定了改為法定總額你把它固定成15人以後啊會很麻煩啊我覺得會很麻煩的就是說你擔心的是從來沒有發生過的然後呢比如說你大法官因為在國會裡面啊這個同意權如果說久了很有可能會發生啊以國民黨來看的話你會哪一個提出來你搞不好全部都不滿意啊"},{"start":3558.308,"end":3574.955,"text":"你如果全部都不滿意啊不滿意以後你造成你憲法法庭就一定停擺這大家都知道的我要強調就是說其實國家是大家的啦國家真的是大家的啦因為你你這個一個一修法以後啊你很容易預測會發生什麼事嘛我就說這一次大官任期到了"},{"start":3583.082,"end":3604.127,"text":"這幾個重新再補到要再補大官的一個人數如果在國會沒有辦法通過沒有辦法通過的理由很多因為每一個在立法院裡面學法的人其實也不多他好的人壞的人他也未必知道都是黨團的意志哪怕我跟你講他很有"},{"start":3605.43,"end":3605.45,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":3622.944,"end":3638.217,"text":"韓國議員"},{"start":3638.337,"end":3638.817,"text":"國民黨委員翁曉玲等19人擬具"},{"start":3663.613,"end":3666.82,"text":"民進黨這樣的一個擔憂或者法界的這些擔憂你們認為這些都不存在的嗎?"},{"start":3670.29,"end":3697.326,"text":"你們真的認為是不存在的嗎?只因為我說我人數就比你多一點我就硬要通過那你通過的目的是幹什麼?你說難道是只因為你大法官會議你這個憲法法庭你這個一個判決誰叫你要做出什麼這個國會的一個擴權法案那麼多把它宣告違憲本來就是他該有的一個工作各位去把它想想看喔大法官如果缺有的不能依法來行之降職權的話"},{"start":3699.68,"end":3701.381,"text":"憲法訴訟法第四十五條條文修正草案．請審議案。．請審議案。．請審議案。"},{"start":3727.441,"end":3745.903,"text":"在國會裡面這些大法官的同意權行使不通過一直要換一直要換換到國民黨喜歡才有辦法那像類似這樣的驗尿的強制抽血這一些你就沒有辦法來做出一個憲法法庭的一個判決出來"},{"start":3746.932,"end":3766.613,"text":"例如說首次暫時處分針對不同國籍小孩歸屬這個部分他把那個整個判決把它廢棄掉加持法庭的那個判決然後直接發回去更審但如果說沒有憲法法庭的話請問像這種案子你怎麼辦那如果說軍事法院跟普通法院你又判決又不同的時候你怎麼辦"},{"start":3769.65,"end":3770.131,"text":"委員翁曉玲等15人擬具"},{"start":3777.705,"end":3782.148,"text":"一、本院委員翁曉玲等23人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第四十三條條文修正草案．一、本院委員翁曉玲等23人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第四十三條條文修正草案．請審議案．請審議案．請審議"},{"start":3801.519,"end":3805.44,"text":"高門檻的同意做成判決,這個其實叫做走回頭路,而且畢竟這個回頭路以前還沒有到法定總額。各位你去把它看看,我們2019年憲法訴訟法在2022年施行,把過去三分之二的同意,然後三分之二把它做一個降低。"},{"start":3826.088,"end":3851.153,"text":"那是避免造成判決速度的一個太緩慢,緩不濟急啊。你說,你說憲訴法實行這兩年做成48次的一個判決啊。那其實如果看我們的還不夠的話,我們再來看看我剛所提到的國際上的一個經驗啊。南韓在,南韓的憲法第111條是九名大法官來組成,七名同意的一個高門檻。但是,今年來不及提名這個最終憲法法庭的判決,就"},{"start":3853.935,"end":3860.178,"text":"暫停適用高的總額。南非也同樣,南非憲法167條規定11名大法官,8名參與評議,但並未規範可決門檻,避免判決速度太慢。"},{"start":3872.302,"end":3882.638,"text":"各位再來想一想看喔你現行的憲法訴訟法我們對正副總統的彈劾案跟違憲政黨的一個解散案我們設定的是三分之二的一個高門檻"},{"start":3884.259,"end":3905.776,"text":"為什麼他設定三分之二的高門檻?就是覺得他跟一般憲法法庭的你的評議跟判決他比你更高一點那假設都是當初的設計是如此才是一個高門檻那你難道你忘了修這一條嗎?這個更高的那就變成你沒有辦法去做差別待遇了你沒辦法去做差別待遇了"},{"start":3908.837,"end":3915.46,"text":"那就變成說這一次提案你僅提高了一般判決跟暫時處分的一個門檻那你卻未去提升整個彈劾或者解散門檻這個失去它的一個橫屏啊究法論法來看的話這個確實是有待來做一個考慮的"},{"start":3926.045,"end":3943.179,"text":"倉促去修法．你注意去把它看．如果像比如說我們整個憲法的彈劾規定彈根據憲法正修條文第四條第七項你是立法院來提出政府總統的一個彈劾並由大法官來做一個審理那你根據憲法訴訟法你第五章部分的75條你只要達到三分之二決議才得以彈劾喔"},{"start":3947.783,"end":3968.767,"text":"所以你就失去那個一個橫屏啊啊失去那個橫屏啊啊那我最後要講的就是說歷史上啊你只要去對跟大法官因為他的不滿意啊來引發這樣的一個報復啊來發動這樣的一個報復啊其實這個走回頭路到底好不好各位就想一想"},{"start":3971.117,"end":3997.606,"text":"大法官在做出第七十六號解釋就是1958提高大法官做成的判決的門檻比如說在1948年的時候就37年大法官會議規則裡面是二分之一第十二條是二分之一出席二分之一的決議大法官會議應有大法官總額半數出席出席大法官過半數同意使得作為一個決議那到了1952年"},{"start":4000.376,"end":4020.767,"text":"修正大法官會議的準則是三分之二出席二分之一決議那到了一九五八去提高你把他提高四分之三出席四分之三同意有沒有過有曾經這樣過但這是什麼原因這個是因為大法官做成七十六號解釋說你去否認我國大是這個是唯一的民意機關"},{"start":4024.596,"end":4033.22,"text":"立法院就火大了就把你整個憲法訴訟法的部分大法官會議的規則當初叫大法官會議規則你就去把它提高門檻來做這樣的一個報復但是每一次的一個報復裡面其實產生的民意的一個反撲我相信大家都記憶猶新都是記憶猶新最主要"},{"start":4053.615,"end":4081.306,"text":"在2004年的時候你看那個釋字585啊你限定立法院調查權的行使的不過那個時候國新在隔年就去提三檢大法官的專業佳績啊所以大法官也在2005年做成601號的宣告把它宣告違憲可是呢現在這國民黨跟民政黨民政黨到底會不會最後會不會挺國民黨我不知道但我倒覺得這不是誰挺誰的問題啦"},{"start":4083.103,"end":4100.441,"text":"就說在一個任何的修法要有他修法的一個理由修法的理由是怕擔心會有極端會有極端的一個狀況你說比如說三四個這個修法的預設的這種狀況可是我們必須要提出來說從過去到現在從來沒有發生過哪怕"},{"start":4106.073,"end":4116.336,"text":"大家講的台大那個案子有迴避那個部分那還是到九個人還是到九個人也從來不會產生什麼三個到四個憲法法庭"},{"start":4117.688,"end":4130.838,"text":"他這個我們不敢講說他是叫位高權重啊就是說他是一個備受國人尊重大家也知道尤其是學法的人全部都知道憲法法庭他這樣要摸下去你說要改調法定總額要寵下去讓你到最後你因為的一個法定總額放在那個地方讓你開不成會"},{"start":4145.213,"end":4145.373,"text":"國民黨時代如此"},{"start":4173.408,"end":4202.828,"text":"國民黨時代如此,民進黨時代也如此,實行判決那個是一個價值啦,那你可以有自己的價值判斷,那大法官裡面其實啊,其實憲法法庭也好,或者說一般的法庭也好,法官是不應該跳出來辯護的啦,法官本來就應該無語,你要嘛你就去看他的判決書,你就用專業的意見你去跟他提出批判,這個都是可以的,可是重點就是說,立法院沒這個能力啊,"},{"start":4203.848,"end":4223.903,"text":"立法院沒有這個能力沒有這個法學素養去對憲法法庭提出對他來抨擊那你只能訴諸政治上的一個力量就只有這樣子而已用這樣的報復的方式我是覺得真的不好吳仲健召委他本身也是法律人我們都是法律人我們都是法律人"},{"start":4224.949,"end":4252.784,"text":"我剛剛講了這些話我說國民黨執政的大法官他所做出的憲法的以前叫大法官會議解釋被我去批評的也很少因為你現在做成的判決書裡面你說就算我同意我也可以部分不同意見書我也可以有協同意見書我也可以有不同完全反對的一個看法都會有這個叫做什麼這個叫做多元的觀點"},{"start":4254.495,"end":4280.277,"text":"這個叫做說你要這個判決你要達成一個權威正反見解全部在那個地方足弓啊所有的人民啊啊讓他很公開的還有法界啊去做一個評論啊啊其實我倒會覺得說以這樣的一個我擔心的最最最最擔心的方式就是如果法定總額一設下去立法院再用同"},{"start":4281.935,"end":4297.495,"text":"通緯權的方式來做一個反對的話整個憲法法庭癱瘓掉對政黨都小事對立法院也都小事因為立法委員薪水照領你也不會痛搞不好還很開心可是對整個制度對過去"},{"start":4300.258,"end":4322.146,"text":"憲法法庭他有可以把整個憲政上的爭議還有人民基本權利的一個救濟你把這個路你把他堵死了我是認為期期以為不可啦這個是我也請提案的翁委員這個是再考慮一下啦真的再考慮一下因為我真的看不出你這個修法那個正當性有強到說那翁委員那個就對了啊"},{"start":4327.506,"end":4346.365,"text":"我們在司法法制委員會就哪怕政府提出來的法案這翁委員你也很清楚我常常都是反對的我很堅持的可是呢我就看了你的提案以後我就覺得你這個正當性非常非常的一個薄弱"},{"start":4347.125,"end":4358.972,"text":"你非常薄弱你把它去除說我對憲法法令很不爽我對一次這個整個立法院的資訊新司法這件事你把它放到旁邊去幹你說你修這個法律的正當性或者那必要性在什麼地方沒有發生過你擔心的事情沒有發生過是啊從過去到現在都已經是如此沒有發生過你說擔心一個噢可能會發生所以我先來預防"},{"start":4376.63,"end":4401.285,"text":"這也不對這也不對為什麼會什麼兩三個來造成不會有這種狀況所以面對外界會去質疑說會實質上癱瘓掉整個憲法法庭的運作你也很清楚啦沒有通過統一權沒有通過就實質癱瘓掉啦難道這樣你會很開心嗎那我請問碰到這種狀況你怎麼辦你怎麼去補救"},{"start":4405.379,"end":4418.549,"text":"立法者怎可如此立法者怎可如此我這個是很嚴肅的一個問題喔很嚴肅的一個問題喔也就是說從盤古開天從過去有大法官會議到後來變成憲法法庭的時候他做出了一個判決裡面老百姓是很遵守的甚至會認為說哪怕過去國民黨在紀元時代就有一個大法官會議在那個地方"},{"start":4435.165,"end":4451.309,"text":"你至少,欸,大法官,你不要開玩笑喔,那政黨太好笑,大法官會議會把你宣告是違憲喔。連戒嚴時期都會有大法官會議的一個運作啊。那我們走入了進入了民主,然後這麼多元,這麼開放的一個社會,我們反而是輕易的說我要憲法訴訟法。"},{"start":4458.291,"end":4466.514,"text":"我來做一個修訂我本立法定總額就是15那你如果是在立法院行使同意權的時候我再打掉幾個就好啦沒啦沒啦六個六個那你永遠憲法法庭全部都癱瘓會不會發生就像你講的很有可能發生但是我不做預測我講萬一發生那你怎麼辦"},{"start":4488.939,"end":4509.989,"text":"百分之九十九確實是人民所提的基本權利的一個受侵害的時候他提起的憲法訴訟啊。真正由行政部門去提出憲法法庭要去徵訟的,不到百分之一啊!不到百分之一啊!如果一個政府機關提出的憲法的一個徵訟,"},{"start":4511.28,"end":4531.898,"text":"假設你認為全部都是挖民進洞的那個都是民進黨的大法官假設你這樣認為說大法官是沒有良心的哪一個政黨提名的全部都是看哪一個政黨我就從剛剛講到現在連國民黨過去連戒嚴連國民黨過去在威權統治白色恐怖那麼愛殺老百姓的大法官會議做出來的決定我們也沒有去這樣質疑他那何況現在"},{"start":4539.611,"end":4561.133,"text":"是各個政黨每一個人一把號,不管是要直播或者開記者會,那個都直接可以向民眾對人民直接來做一個訴求,可是用這樣到最後你把這樣的一個修法,到最後如果是實質來癱換掉整個憲法法庭的一個運作的話,"},{"start":4562.054,"end":4581.294,"text":"再想一下啦,因為我跟你質疑這一些,你也應該很清楚,很有可能要發生的啦,很有可能要發生,那過去的經驗也告訴我們啦,也告訴我們啦,就是說每一次去挑戰大法跟會議喔,這都不是好事啦,因為你如果做,你也可以做八黨啦,"},{"start":4585.444,"end":4591.787,"text":"我老兒子我也不能做太久啦人在當立法委員不要以為當了立法委員你就是最厲害啦我用不客氣講我幾乎從來沒有在批評你的你很清楚我從來不批評你的漂亮的巫婆漂亮的巫婆我告訴你喔這個如果一通過了以後喔這就不是巫婆可以做解釋了我跟你講這就變成說你提這種案"},{"start":4615.953,"end":4616.393,"text":"我開始懷疑喔"},{"start":4643.539,"end":4670.128,"text":"我真的開始懷疑喔不是我是說我說這樣的這樣的這樣的寫出來的一個我提出這一些啊就是說你怎麼會貿然你知道會發生什麼一個法律人我不是不是跟你講了嗎我就講這一些給你聽了安委員我們先等一下那那個中委員你不要問他是不是學法律他就學法律啦"},{"start":4670.988,"end":4671.008,"text":"請審議案。"},{"start":4677.188,"end":4683.231,"text":"我提出的這些理由來做一個懷疑,我也不說他誰的壞,他很漂亮的壞。可是你剛剛已經批評到我的專業,所以我就覺得我需要出來回應啊。不是,我批評到你的專業,我是就事論述在批評。"},{"start":4701.141,"end":4726.2,"text":"我這就你的條文不是你的底子你的底子搞不好你下一步提出來我給你拍手也不一定啊都大大的給你拍手我說你這一個條文讓我這樣質疑好不好不要誤會那那個省委員有要發表意見嗎那麥委員還是先翁委員"},{"start":4727.571,"end":4727.791,"text":"憲法委員翁曉玲"},{"start":4749.291,"end":4752.832,"text":"現有總額就是指實際在任留任的這些大法官就可以做成憲法判決"},{"start":4775.476,"end":4795.033,"text":"此情況基本上是違反我們在講到的這個憲法審理程序的嚴謹性而且大家知道大法官是解釋憲法他相當的程度已經在造憲了我們要修改一個憲法條文的門檻是多高"},{"start":4796.407,"end":4816.372,"text":"不僅是立法院要四分之三出席三分之二同意通過才能提案還要經過全國人民的這過半數的同意覆決才可以修憲大法官少少幾個人他透過解釋憲法的權利就可以去造憲可以去造法這樣子的情形是多麼的危險"},{"start":4824.209,"end":4846.437,"text":"在其他國家,這個大法官,這個憲法法院的法官,他要宣告一個法律文憲,都要三分之二的這個同意啊。我們現在是二分之一的同意。再加上我剛剛說的,以現在留任的大法官,這個不管人數多少,他都可以做成憲法判決。這樣規定合理嗎?我這邊我想請教秘書長,因為您大概"},{"start":4851.107,"end":4877.37,"text":"對於整個憲法訴訟法的規定是十分的了解。我想請問如果說今天有死刑犯再度申請釋憲認為死刑是違憲的那麼以現在的剩下的八位大法官可不可以受理這個案子他可不可以做成他是不是可以開憲法法庭的會議來做成評議"},{"start":4881.502,"end":4882.142,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4902.77,"end":4917.254,"text":"五位大法官就可以做成宣告死刑是違憲的?憲法判決?我先講現在的憲法訴訟法問題是不是五位大法官就可以宣告死刑是違憲的?"},{"start":4931.189,"end":4931.209,"text":"．二．"},{"start":4946.069,"end":4946.969,"text":"我現在講流刃的現在八位"},{"start":4976.533,"end":4999.974,"text":"我都聽得懂翁委員的問題嗎?你就按照問題回答好不好?我真的覺得你作為一個司法院的副秘書長、代理秘書長,你作為一個法律人,你不敢講這個問題嗎?好,副秘書長,您也是法律人,您過去也擔任法官,您應該很了解憲法訴訟法的規定。您就說五位就可能坐城,難道不是這樣嗎?"},{"start":5002.025,"end":5005.306,"text":"我只能說我就是對於現司法院的表現非常的不滿感慨你們太膽怯了這麼簡單的問題"},{"start":5027.308,"end":5053.435,"text":"賣玉珍委員不是選法員都很清楚規定就是如此你的計算方式就是這樣不要在這邊跟我講說什麼極不極端的問題發生是不是好你現在講的狀況是如果八位大法官全員出席或是有六位出席五個座城請問你們現在留院的八位大法官裡面有幾個是十五屆的十五屆大法官出生十五屆法官出生的"},{"start":5057.66,"end":5080.962,"text":"現在留任的實務界裡面法官的是三位,一位是檢察官。好,如果這三位法官,這三位大法官,實務界出身的大法官,過去都曾經與這個申請釋憲案的當事人,都曾經參與過這個申請釋憲案的當事人的相關案件,他要不要迴避?"},{"start":5093.234,"end":5118.883,"text":"好所以呢八位大法官裡面一共有三位大法官曾經參與過先前的案子的審理是不是要迴避嗎要迴避嗎其實是有是有迴避你現在的規定來講就是要迴避嗎是不是你依照你十二條的規定是不是要迴避是吧對不對你八位扣掉三位所以五位大法官開庭審理嗎那做成判決的是幾位"},{"start":5122.759,"end":5130.027,"text":"副秘書長,如果你一直不回答問題,我們是不是可以請楊廷長回答?因為你搞不清楚狀況嘛。"},{"start":5144.462,"end":5147.684,"text":"法律是必須在防弊,就是防止極端的情況發生。我現在是講一個合理的問題喔。"},{"start":5164.073,"end":5167.835,"text":"按照委員的涉提,三位大法官都要迴避的話當然是五位,不過我可不可以補充一下?"},{"start":5188.274,"end":5191.737,"text":"現有總額的三分之二出席是幾位?現有總額的一半一樣是三位"},{"start":5206.3,"end":5214.449,"text":"出席三位大法官通過就可以做成一個宣告死刑違憲的憲法裁判。"},{"start":5224.62,"end":5231.506,"text":"法官出征的大法官只有蔡財臻大法官曾經審理過其中的原因案件李太陽大法官跟楊蕙琦大法官從來沒有審理過這樣的案件"},{"start":5242.114,"end":5270.927,"text":"所以我現在是剛好這一件個案才會有迴避的問題對我現在是要舉例舉例的問題就是這樣對我們要法律為什麼要我們要把這個規定規定的這個想很多的極端情話要要想清楚我們就是要防備防止這種極端的情形出現這就是為什麼其他國家都會特別的規範法就是這個憲法法庭的出席人數他有一個最低的門檻但是我們現在台灣沒有我們台灣沒有"},{"start":5272.051,"end":5291.742,"text":"至於說大法官能不能補齊大法官空轉會不會造成憲法法庭的癱瘓的這件事情跟修法無關我必須說跟修法無關大法官空轉是因為這個法律造成的嗎坦白說不是"},{"start":5293.424,"end":5300.827,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商．一、本院司法及法制委員會報告併案審查．一、本院司法及法制委員會報告併案審查．一、本院司法及法制委員會報告"},{"start":5319.894,"end":5343.546,"text":"我可以回答嗎?是。是。這個部分我想要說明的是說,整個性有種的制度從國民政府遷台之後,因為就考慮到說因為我國的任命權跟同意權,提名權跟同意權、任命權,它這個部分在不同機關的情況下,有可能造成一個憲政機關的人員缺額。所以當年其實從道爾關17人第一次提名的時候,其實就有缺額5人。"},{"start":5345.27,"end":5363.798,"text":"來臺灣的時候其實當時大法官只有12個人一直在這樣運作的情況之下維持憲法總統的運作確實我們不否認有委員所擔心的可能情形不過一直以來一直以來其實即便是最多缺額的就是在陳水扁總統那時候曾經有4位被否決那現在法庭還是大法官會議用11位來進行處理"},{"start":5366.102,"end":5367.003,"text":"議員翁曉玲等23人擬具"},{"start":5392.421,"end":5417.688,"text":"五位大法官或三位大法官作成的憲法判決跟十位大法官作成的憲法判決會不會有差別?我想我可以舉德國聯邦憲法法院為例子。十六個法官分兩庭,一庭只有八個法官。他們宣告法律違憲要多少法官同意?但是他們八個,他們分庭這裡。你只要告訴我他們宣告法律違憲的大法官要多少人?他們其實只要六個人出席。"},{"start":5418.428,"end":5442.674,"text":"所以他們三分之二對他們三分之二他們三分之二四個法官就可以宣告了委員他們分庭一個庭只有八個法官而已其實他們做審判決的統一門檻以人數來說甚至比台灣是更低的那台灣因為我們沒有分庭審理我們是一整個大庭那你告訴我德國聯邦憲法法院的大法官怎麼產生是總統一個人提名的嗎"},{"start":5447.947,"end":5472.725,"text":"不是不是怎麼產生這個部分我可不可以核對一下資料再跟您報告他絕對不會是總統一個人提名的絕對不會是內閣一個人提名的他是國會各方面的大家共同有共識認為這些大法官是適合的我現在要強調的地方就是現在我還沒有提到大法官提名的問題但是很清楚的就是"},{"start":5473.806,"end":5502.902,"text":"無論如何,他們都還是三分之二啊。我們今天在這邊有三分之二做門檻嗎?人家的大法官德國這麼大。報告委員,德國聯邦憲法法院他們是二分之一。我們今天的資料有提。三分之二出席,二分之一。對,他是二分之一。那你為什麼不講日本?你為什麼不講法國?為什麼不講韓國?日本做審判決也是簡單多數。法國也是簡單多數。但是他們有沒有最低的門檻?有,但是他們有搭配配套措施。所以我現在做到的還是要最低的門檻。他們,他們,他法官或者有繼任的制度。"},{"start":5504.703,"end":5522.002,"text":"司法院在乎的是我們沒有配套措施的情況之下,如果只用法定原格的話,那這樣會讓我們沒辦法運作嗎?司法院在乎的是沒有配套措施,那你們之後可以提案,那你為什麼不提案?然後另外我要再講的就是,憲法法庭的審理的這個規則,這固然"},{"start":5525.957,"end":5553.4,"text":"現在是定在這個大法官的這個在憲法訴訟法的第四條啊那麼由司法院定之但是是這個是不是立法授權讓你們可以去定審理規則我今天我認為有些項目不適合立法授權讓司法院去定定那這樣的一個情況這就是我的立法政策的選擇我的立法形成的這個立法形成的自由有立法這個的裁量的空間"},{"start":5554.261,"end":5555.063,"text":"憲法第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":5564.517,"end":5592.253,"text":"修改這個就是一個合法合憲的而且屬於立法立法者的一個政策選擇政策裁量的空間我要再次強調的就是剛剛其實司法院講的你們都是說在正常的狀況底下不會發生但是現在就是有可能會有出現不正常的狀況不正常的狀況的憲法法庭做出來的憲法判決"},{"start":5593.154,"end":5594.455,"text":"大法官空轉的這件事情"},{"start":5618.444,"end":5618.464,"text":"請審議案。．"},{"start":5636.621,"end":5648.844,"text":"法律提案有關,我們現在是在建立制度,是在建立一個讓臺灣憲法訴訟、憲法裁判,朝向更為合理、更為健全的方向去發展。剛剛莊瑞雄委員說,高門檻的判決是會走回頭路。"},{"start":5662.199,"end":5689.089,"text":"我想他為什麼不去對大法官說這句話大法官不是才在最近的這個死刑有條件合憲的判決裡面要求各級審的法院法官到一致決啊他怎麼不去批評大法官然後我們現在提高這個高門檻還沒有到一致決耶從二分之一提高到三分之二過去這麼多年來大法官會議不是都能夠運作"},{"start":5690.956,"end":5692.357,"text":"現有總要明定成為法定原額,這樣才能夠讓"},{"start":5718.89,"end":5744.545,"text":"憲法法庭有更多的大法官可以實質的去參與討論出席做成評議。現在看起來這個民進黨其實一直在杯葛這個法案。那很多的律師口口聲聲說我們這個法律條文通過之後會影響到人民的申請釋憲權。"},{"start":5747.27,"end":5775.704,"text":"事實上,上次副秘書長這邊也報告,司法院也報告過,97%的人民申請案,或是99%的人民申請案,幾乎有97%或是95%的案子是被駁回的,是不受理的。你們現在在憲法法庭還有三四百件的案子已經受理了,但是沒有審議。"},{"start":5777.86,"end":5805.622,"text":"對十五位大法官說為什麼不好趕快審呢你們不才是耽擱人民的憲法釋憲人民的這個釋憲救濟權啊現在如果說是把大法官就是讓這少少的留任的這七八位大法官然後讓他們去決定哪些人民的申請案可以受理哪些人民申請案不可以受理我告訴你人民才會大反彈"},{"start":5806.923,"end":5807.924,"text":"委員,我可以跟您說明一下嗎?"},{"start":5829.471,"end":5855.406,"text":"就是針對你剛剛這個部分容我補充一下就是說事實上我們的衛檢案裡面已經受理的案子只有28件那當28件是主案那當然還有包括其他併案那其他的部分其實是我們申請還沒有受理還沒有處理那為什麼都還沒有處理那當然這部分涉及到因為有些案子他非常複雜在等相關機關含糊那今年不可諱言的因為死刑案跟國會法案這個部分"},{"start":5855.786,"end":5855.986,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":5871.278,"end":5873.48,"text":"二、本院委員翁曉玲等二．委員翁曉玲等三．委員翁曉玲等三．"},{"start":5894.078,"end":5913.291,"text":"單誤了人民的申請釋憲權。該審理的不用再說了。謝謝你。那麼我想就是說總結就是剛剛所講到的幾個問題沒有就是講得很清楚了啊就是他們一些案子就是沒有審啊"},{"start":5928.194,"end":5948.146,"text":"所以這一百二十八件的審,然後就讓少少的幾位大法官去審。這樣做出來的判決能夠讓人信服嗎?對不對,你們很多基本上不是維持憲刑法律,要不然就推翻,是同樣的邏輯啊,人民會一直信服嗎?我告訴你,其實簡單來說,就是你少數大法官,你做成的憲法裁判,"},{"start":5948.966,"end":5949.006,"text":"委員翁"},{"start":5967.305,"end":5983.489,"text":"但我要說明的是,目前我們新制施行以來的51則判決裡面,絕大多數都是人民申請而做成的。是啊,你們一年只做成多少個判決,你告訴我嗎?才20個嘛,一年做20個嘛,你們今年做了幾個?我們少該努力要去審理那些案子,而不是說你們一直擔憂,好謝謝你們不用再說了。我們連人民申請暫時處分的案件,我們都沒有辦法處理。"},{"start":5990.891,"end":6016.502,"text":"我們連人民申請暫時處分有急迫性案子我們都沒辦法出。你們告訴我現在有幾個有申請暫時處分?不要在那邊說嘛,沒有嘛,現在也沒有。有,我們最近都有收到,跟我們報告。對啊,你們也可以做球啊,你們什麼都可以做啊。而且我告訴你們,這是你們的問題,我是認為說,我還是回到我剛剛講的,錯誤不當的憲法裁判比不做成更可怕。"},{"start":6019.284,"end":6026.471,"text":"大法官沒有足額之前,你們所做的這些憲法判決都會被民眾強烈的質疑。"},{"start":6033.509,"end":6033.75,"text":"憲法訴訟法相當的修正草案。"},{"start":6050.707,"end":6052.968,"text":"字幕由 Amara.org 社群提供"},{"start":6074.773,"end":6075.613,"text":"委員翁曉玲等23人擬具"},{"start":6105.353,"end":6129.491,"text":"好那這一個齁我第一個先講一下這一個程序上的一個問題齁就是說呢現在同一個時間齁有非常重要的跟這個不管是大法官的人事案齁還有這一個呃所謂的這一個調查權齁還有選罷法齁這個同時間的協商是院長協商啦齁跟這一個趙偉協商的不一樣但這個時間衝突啦齁所以我一直都還是覺得齁我們這一個協商看起來還是有討論的可能啦齁"},{"start":6130.131,"end":6157.737,"text":"但是應該要延後啦我覺得不是保留所以我不贊成麥委員的講法說什麼保留我們的確應該都還是有討論的空間因為從剛剛發言到現在每一個人的問題其實非常聚焦的所以我的建議是應該是要往後然後再繼續這個協商而不是保留然後到最後由院長協商這是第一個第二個就是為什麼我們要說要繼續協商就是因為這個案件在社會上的爭議其實非常非常的大"},{"start":6158.337,"end":6187.341,"text":"大家也知道明天就會有一些律師他們說要遊行當然我知道趙偉也有批評說這是一個什麼綠營側翼但是我要講一下不是只有不是只有這些立委而不是只有這些這個律師還有全綠還有北綠我想說全綠跟北綠應該不太可能全部是側翼所以我就覺得說在那麼重大的爭議的狀況之下是不是大家能夠緩一緩因為這個很明顯我們的在爭執的點是很聚焦的"},{"start":6187.961,"end":6211.515,"text":"那我現在回到我們這個爭議的,因為等一下還要上去另外一個協商。第一個就是,如果剛剛溫委員一直提到很多的極端狀況,那我還是要講一下,這個極端狀況它發生的百分比,有可能是1%,0.5%,結果你因為1%可能發生的機率,然後要把整個制度做修改,這不是很奇怪的事情嗎?"},{"start":6212.455,"end":6219.678,"text":"如果你認為有1%、2%的機率會發生極端狀況,那你不是應該要做一些條款去針對這個1%跟2%的極端狀況來做修改這樣才對嗎?你怎麼可能會因為1%的極端狀況,然後要把整個的規則修掉?法律原則沒有人在這樣跑的嗎?"},{"start":6232.402,"end":6254.771,"text":"所以再來呢這個我覺得非常重要的一點就是在於說如果我們今天真的認為有極端狀況像剛剛提到譬如說死刑然後如果現在來申請然後多少人依照我們現在迴避的條文就算到最後只有五個人決定或就算最後只有三個人決定這其實是正常現象這也不是什麼極端狀況"},{"start":6256.232,"end":6283.255,"text":"因為畢竟如果他該迴避的就迴避那他如果人數不足人數不足是立法院這邊要不要審的問題這是政治問題所以如果因為政治的問題因為立法院這邊的人士還沒有出來其他的國家在針對這個時候是有針對延任的規定啊德國就有啊我們國家沒有啊如果你真的很害怕這樣的極端狀況那就把類似德國這樣延任的規定定到我們的法律一條而已這樣不就搞定了嗎"},{"start":6284.136,"end":6302.939,"text":"這不是一個條文就可以解決的問題結果你要把整個現有總額的規定做這個修改這 這個法律原則上就一定不符合所以我認同剛剛莊委員講的嘛就是說這個謨言很明顯這是一個法律素養的問題是法律的ABC欸從來沒有人修法是這個樣子"},{"start":6303.9,"end":6330.174,"text":"我昨天也才跟我委員講過你不能說今天門鎖鬆了門鎖鬆了你第一件事情是什麼你要把門鎖關緊嘛你要找鎖匠把這個門鎖看一看嘛結果沒有你說要把門拆掉又或者說我們從今天開始就不要鎖門怎麼可能會有人用這樣的一個方式來修法所以這個一開始的動機還有他一開始所講的理由完全的不充分第二個就是第十二條的問題第十二條他是在講"},{"start":6331.235,"end":6354.934,"text":"回避該怎麼做司法院其實講得很清楚這是一個這是一個跟目前第四條會直接矛盾矛盾在哪裡第四條現有總額現在直接拉到跟法定總額一樣它是個定額你今天第十二條它是浮動數額欸這個在數學上你要怎麼用浮動數額然後用現有的總額法定總額做計算這就是算不了啊這是一個天生的矛盾這是數學問題"},{"start":6356.095,"end":6356.295,"text":"再來還有新舊法的問題"},{"start":6385.197,"end":6409.749,"text":"我都先不要講說剛剛莊委員提到每一個地方的門檻到底一不一致喔如果現在我們新舊法產生爭議的時候到底哪些情況要用新法哪些情況要用舊法這個裡面沒有講欸沒有講的話然後結果現在在協商然後就要出去如果之後就要二讀三讀請問這個爭議該怎麼解決然後更不要講說剛剛莊委員有提到的門檻本來是有一個嚴重的比較"},{"start":6410.609,"end":6429.887,"text":"需要慎重的事情我們可能要三分之二有一些情形我們可能需要二分之一你一致化全部都用三分之二來解決的話那你原來這個比例原則你針對不同的案件要做不同的處理的那個差別何在這個法律原則就已經不具備了嘛我以為比例原則還算是憲法的ABC就是公法的ABC"},{"start":6430.788,"end":6445.251,"text":"然後再講到剛剛他們一直提到這個說他們人都走掉了所以我也不知道這個協商到底問意義在哪裡明明所有的問題都攀在這一邊的明明所有的問題都可以去討論阿就這樣走掉那我們怎麼要討論所以我就說這個牌的時間真的有問題"},{"start":6446.252,"end":6468.664,"text":"再來就是一天到晚講這個國會自治我講兩個點就好了如果國會要自治那難道司法不用自治嗎司法獨立比我們的國會的自治還要來得更強大今天第四條明白規定說這個如何審理的規則是司法院自行定制那為什麼我們可以在第四條直接用這個現有總額的規定然後就做修改這個聽起來就沒有道理嘛"},{"start":6469.204,"end":6469.224,"text":"請審議案。．"},{"start":6488.322,"end":6515.962,"text":"阿這些人邏輯不好數學不好那為什麼每次舉手只要二分之一就可以通過你真的如果對這件事情很在意的話很好阿以後我們所有的法案都三分之二通過阿所有的法案都四分之三通過阿阿你說那這個不就跟修憲一樣了嗎阿這個難道都沒有差異了嗎阿他們現在就要做這樣的事情阿他們就把所有的標準全部一致阿那我們乾脆如果要那麼謹慎的話所有都提到修憲的標準就好了嘛我們立法院以後就全部都這樣玩嘛全部都三分之二嘛這沒有道理嘛"},{"start":6516.562,"end":6538.473,"text":"所以今天這個所有的上面寫的這些理由他完全的不充分動機也是就派翁曉玲委員一個人出來談很明顯其他的國民黨委員他就是要硬推這個法案呢那不然為什麼現在要這樣做一個過水那請問其他的國民黨委員在哪裡他們為什麼不出來再來剛剛蔓玉珍委員講的他要贊成這個提案"},{"start":6540.07,"end":6551.635,"text":"當代法律黃山山才剛刊完文章欸才剛剛刊完文章說他們不贊成翁曉玲委員的提案那現在呢就是黃山山委員的意見不重要嗎"},{"start":6553.579,"end":6575.384,"text":"2015年黃國昌跟著司改會開記者會講了什麼他講說這一些事情如果有二分之一的法官就已經覺得很爛就表示這個法律真的有夠爛當然要用二分之一做門檻這黃國昌在2015年講的請問黃國昌現在講的不算數嗎是不是應該打電話叫他下來樓下說明一下為什麼剛剛按照麥玉珍委員的講法現在要贊成國民黨的提案"},{"start":6576.246,"end":6600.711,"text":"所以從剛剛講到現在我還有一堆都還沒有講這個所有不管是在程序上在修法的理由上在動機上條文的矛盾上所有都是問題耶在那麼大的問題裡面委員會已經做了那麼多的提醒甚至還有一些還可以直接淨附二讀那我們這些爭議如果都不管然後到最後交給院長協商也跟今天一樣講到一半人都走掉了"},{"start":6601.531,"end":6622.293,"text":"然後這個二法就這樣二讀三讀就要通過了然後外面的聲音我們也都不用管這個叫做注重民意嗎這跟注重我們國民黨最喜歡講說他們現在代表多數的民意我們要傾聽民意的聲音現在到底傾聽在哪裡完全不存在啊然後再回到剛剛郭委員講的他剛提了幾點他說其他國家都這樣"},{"start":6623.756,"end":6645.904,"text":"問題是就是不一樣啊其他國家第一個有配套措施第二個其他國家的制度他們選任大法官的方式跟我們不同嘛剛剛硬要去問說德國怎麼做德國是內閣制耶內閣制的提名跟同意的方式本來就跟台灣不同啊所以他沒有台灣的現在這種總統提名立法院結果不審或不同意的這種憲政危機的機制嘛"},{"start":6646.644,"end":6669.088,"text":"那他不需要處理這個機制那他的規定為什麼可以用在我們身上?如果國民黨那麼愛談死刑的話那也很好啊!德國廢死欸!如果都要抄德國的話那現在好啊!OK那我就看國民黨是不是就直接跟著德國然後現在就廢死好了因為反正什麼都要抄德國不是嗎?是不是完全都不用管文化了?也不用管他們的制度了?也不用管他們的政治背景了?是不是都可以不用管了?"},{"start":6669.639,"end":6674.944,"text":"用其他的國家怎麼樣就直接來說台灣應該修法這個是最不負責任的講法第二個他說什麼其他國家很多都是這個什麼這個五位他都會怎麼樣然後其他的國家至少要幾位像剛剛講的德國他其實是8加8"},{"start":6688.877,"end":6703.306,"text":"他不是跟我們一樣十幾個人全部一起做審議他八加八裡面六個出席到時候也是四個人那請問所以溫委員是認為說臺灣的三位四位大法官不值得信任德國的三位四位大法官就值得信任嗎"},{"start":6704.677,"end":6727.637,"text":"這個理由不充分嘛。如果你認為大法官不適格,你認為大法官做的決定你不滿意,你也有你的法學見解。我記得吳宗憲委員那時候在質詢的時候,他也明白的指出哪一些大法官的這個見解,這個趙偉不同意,我覺得這樣很好啊。但如果你對大法官講的內容,跟他講的東西你如果不同意,那你就是在行使你的同意權的時候不同意不就好了嗎?"},{"start":6728.698,"end":6737.912,"text":"這完全是不搭嘎的事情嘛你不認同這一個大法官你認為他的學術素養不夠你認為他做不出這樣的一個決定那你就不同意他不就好了"},{"start":6738.755,"end":6760.689,"text":"你不同意他跟你現在要把制度直接修改成高門檻直接修改成三分之二直接癱瘓現在憲法法庭的運作這不是兩件完全不同的事情嗎?就會回到剛剛一模一樣講的嘛我們在一直在設想一些根本就不存在的極端狀況更不要講說即使極端狀況出現他也是被允許的啊他本來就可以那樣做決定"},{"start":6761.289,"end":6776.757,"text":"結果你用極端狀況來當作一個理由然後把整套的制度都修掉最後造成傷害的是人民去申請的這個權利最後造成傷害的是當時黃國昌在2015年講的那麼清楚的一句話他說如果再用這樣的一個高門檻最後呢"},{"start":6778.038,"end":6807.421,"text":"我們都沒有辦法把真正的惡法把它消除這他那時候他講的話同意的這一個章也是他那時候蓋下去的所以我必須要講就是說我們很不喜歡這種用過水式的方式如果說一點一點來闡明我們講得非常的明白今天光是他的修法的理由跟動機他的理由就是不充分嘛那如果理由不充分是不是要針對這一點再多做說明而不是用剛剛那種因為用這種又是會回到質詢的方式你覺得德國怎樣"},{"start":6808.121,"end":6825.09,"text":"問題是我們現在就不是德國啊然後更不要講說條文之間跟十二條的矛盾該怎麼辦新舊法的矛盾該怎麼辦這個都沒有處理啊然後本來高門檻低門檻的差距因為這樣被消滅了這也沒有處理啊這不就跟那時候國會濫權法案一樣條文一堆矛盾然後就這樣出出去了"},{"start":6825.59,"end":6826.77,"text":"我們還是要尊重每個委員的想法"},{"start":6852.486,"end":6852.766,"text":"委員翁曉玲"},{"start":6873.51,"end":6873.911,"text":"阿這個跟綠營誠意有什麼關係?"},{"start":6885.663,"end":6906.533,"text":"不是啦,剛剛說北綠跟全綠嘛,那我就就這個說明,這跟協商無關齁,因為你剛好提到全綠跟北綠,那我是說因為有很多人在反映,那個會員有在反映,好那這部分我覺得是這樣啦齁,今天的協商其實是不成立啦,那各黨團的意見不一啦,沒有我跟你講齁,對啦"},{"start":6909.437,"end":6910.097,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}