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謝謝那我們接著請與會機關代表說明請司法院說明"},{"start":2434.036,"end":2436.839,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2465.806,"end":2485.689,"text":"第三十條的修正主要的目的就是要提高大法官的審理同意門檻也就是他的評議門檻從現在的二分之一提高到三分之二那麼在過去大法官審理案件法的時代那個時候也是三分之二出席三分之二的同意通過那在更早的時候"},{"start":2486.569,"end":2512.427,"text":"大法官審理案件法更早的時候的修法當時曾經有出現過四分之三的出席三分之二的通過所以呢我想說這一次的這個修法就像我之前所講的提高大法官評議門檻從二分之一到三分之二的目的就是要強化憲法法院的品質那麼讓整個憲法裁判的程序更加嚴謹所以以上的報告謝謝"},{"start":2515.964,"end":2518.507,"text":"法院法院法院法院法院法院法院"},{"start":2529.116,"end":2531.419,"text":"現法法庭是我們現在唯一有權解釋憲法,然後就人民跟機關在憲政秩序上面"},{"start":2546.118,"end":2551.2,"text":"要獲取終極救濟的這個最後途徑所以我們是認為說各憲政機關都有這個責任然後共同來維護憲法法庭的這個穩定運作那因為我們看一下這個修正草案則在第四條第30條第43條跟95條那麼我們擔心說就很有可能造成憲法法庭難以行使職權"},{"start":2569.048,"end":2569.688,"text":"委員翁曉玲等17人擬具"},{"start":2586.379,"end":2602.711,"text":"現有總額,大法官現有總額,限定在是指憲法正修條文第五條所定的這個大法官人數,也就是15人。那麼但是在對於說,如果大法官有辭任、死亡、出缺、認滿以後,沒有辦法及時產生新任大法官、繼任的時候,那麼限訴法"},{"start":2603.691,"end":2617.354,"text":"並沒有像其他我們這個書面後面有附各個其他國家的那麼像德國澳奧地利加拿大這些國家對這種情形都有一些因應了這個做法目前憲法並沒有這樣子這個規範那麼這種情形底下就會產生在這種情形底下憲法法庭的運作產生困難那人民的這個請求憲法的權力救濟就會產生很大的這個障礙"},{"start":2630.777,"end":2634.199,"text":"那如果在對照說我們現在憲法第十二條針對大法公迴避的時候不記錄線而總和會發生說修正草第四條跟十二條之間解釋上面的疑義當然之前有委員有講說十二條還是特別規定"},{"start":2646.484,"end":2646.965,"text":"法院司法及法律部長"},{"start":2664.019,"end":2666.52,"text":"議員翁曉玲等23人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第四十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等二十五條條文修正草案．請審議案．請審議"},{"start":2683.287,"end":2703.72,"text":"現有總額過半數提高到三分之二部分那這部分我們覺得說對憲法法庭的諮詢心思又增加了更更大的這個限制齁因為這樣子的修正草案比憲法訴訟改制以前的這個大法官會議時期規定是以出席大法官的三分之二的同意門檻更高因為以前是出席的人數三分之二就可以現在這個修正草案變成是現有總額三分之二"},{"start":2706.701,"end":2732.697,"text":"那我們覺得這樣子的限制可能跟違背說外界希望憲法法庭能夠修正的這個意見大家都知道我們憲法訴訟法這一個改成是原則過半數是2017年施改國事會議底下的這個建議因為當時原來的那個大法官會議審理案件法規定成是出席人員三十二的時候就造成說當出席的大法官"},{"start":2733.878,"end":2748.53,"text":"暫程跟反對都沒有達到三分之二的時候永遠一直沒有辦法一直沒有辦法達成共識那案件選了未決人民請求解釋憲法一直沒有辦法得到這個救濟所以才會施改國際秩序做成這個決議那施改國際秩序做成這個決議之後我們憲法訴訟法也配合這個去做修正"},{"start":2752.433,"end":2775.141,"text":"以這兩年的操作,確實有達到當初希望給人民憲法上全力有效救濟的這個目的。如果我們現在就修改回比原來更嚴格,會對憲法法庭的運作產生更大障礙。所以我們也是建議說這一部分能夠去維持。另外還有草案九十五條這個事情期間的部分,"},{"start":2776.801,"end":2781.365,"text":"好,謝謝。接下來我們請出席的黨團代表表示意見。好,那我們首先請民進黨代表表示意見。"},{"start":2799.901,"end":2824.012,"text":"首先我們對於今天由翁委員所提出的包括兩個部分一個是第四條和第九十五條另外是額數問題一個是將現有原總額改成法定總額一個是30條跟43條將評議人數做成決議要改成三分之二那其實關鍵還是在於現有總額的認定"},{"start":2828.394,"end":2848.846,"text":"是否以改為所謂的法定總額,那我們就自己翻。過去呢,在委員會討論的時候啊,也都不時的提出,那在這裡呢,還是要重複的來拿出來講。因為我們本來原來是希望說透過公聽會,那麼公聽會的話,現在建築於我們現在看到在我手上這一本啊,"},{"start":2850.052,"end":2870.308,"text":"這是當代法律所出的專刊那他這裡想說憲法法庭的現有總額就是這個專題為什麼這個題目會引發法律人這麼高度的關切不只要有這個專刊來討論甚至明天也有人法律人要透過實際的行動來表達"},{"start":2871.269,"end":2883.479,"text":"那麼至於當然言論自由大家各有立場但是呢法理上呢還是有一個基本的原則先從我們自己立法院來好了在我們自己立法院職權刑事法立職法當中的第四條"},{"start":2885.865,"end":2914.46,"text":"第一項,立法院會議須有立法委員總額三分之二出席,三分之一出席時的開會。任何的合一制的機關,成會的額數一定是法律規定,這個自不代言。但是,當我們自己立法院本身,所謂的立法委員總額三分之一,它的立法委員總額怎麼認定呢?它是以每會期實際報到的人數為計算標準,但是會期中辭職、去職或亡故者應檢除之。"},{"start":2915.2,"end":2939.85,"text":"所以我們都知道立法院目前依憲條文的規定我們的法定原額是113席這是剛性的規定但是實質上我們的總額呢會依實際報到那因為立法院有個特別的制度你當選為立法委員之後呢你每會期會有個實際報到實際報到後才能行使職權所以嚴格來講如果有委員"},{"start":2941.195,"end":2962.447,"text":"委員在會期開始來進行報導,我們的總額就會下降。總額下降之後,在會期中,若有人辭職、去職或死亡,還會再檢除。這是以便於整個立法院,它能夠運作它的現有的總額,它能夠有個計算的標準。"},{"start":2963.223,"end":2976.285,"text":"那如果說以立法院自己本身例子法這樣的規定那我們來看一看現在呢我們所討論的修改的憲法訴訟法其實呢憲法訴訟法是誠如剛剛司法院的報告"},{"start":2977.418,"end":2995.698,"text":"他實在一百零八年改為現在的憲法訴訟法之前在民國八十二年的時候是叫做司法院大法官審理案件法在那個時候第一次在立法院討論就對於現有總額做了很清楚的規定我們如果查到那時候立法院的公報"},{"start":2996.539,"end":3015.964,"text":"那時候以國民黨為多數的國會包括國民黨的提案就是很強調的包括那時候的司法院的廳長也是來說明啊秘書長對不起是秘書長也是說明說大法官在開會的時候向來都是以現有的總而就是指現有"},{"start":3016.684,"end":3031.354,"text":"那麽那時候為了處理這個現有呢還特別呢把原來大法官會議法當中把它明確的說是現有那因此呢當我們更動這個現有的時候呢會產生什麽問題在之前呢剛剛在我們司法院有聽到了齁"},{"start":3032.813,"end":3059.395,"text":"那麼為什麼要扣除這些依實際狀況不能夠來行使的規定那其實在其他國家如果說他的成會額數有剛性的規定那他一定有配套那這個配套呢其實在我們現在看來有些委員的看來呢這個配套啊就是所謂的萬年延任條款其實很多的會議的合議制呢他為了避免他的會議沒有辦法成會我舉一個議條哈因為"},{"start":3060.831,"end":3077.078,"text":"本席也剛好過去在國民大會還存在的時候當過國大代表那國大代表呢在我們憲法第28條他說每屆國民大會代表之任期自次屆國民大會開會之日為止啊"},{"start":3078.842,"end":3095.837,"text":"這個本來憲法本文規定國民大會原來的代表一任是六年但是呢偏偏呢他的任期呢必須到新次一屆的國民大會產生之日後原任的國民大會才會到任屆滿這為了確保國民大會作為國家的主權機關他不會有中斷"},{"start":3101.567,"end":3128.514,"text":"因為有這樣的綱性的規定所以呢當時國民大會當時政府來到臺灣之後啊國民大會才能依照這樣的一個視線的解釋能夠讓國民大會持續的維持一個開會的額數所以我們在說如果我們採用綱性的額數規定一定有配套的規定讓這些額數在運作的時候不會有中斷之餘那表現在我們最近的就是兩個"},{"start":3129.514,"end":3135.279,"text":"委員翁曉玲等23人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第四十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等23人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第三十五條條文修正草案．請審議案．請審議"},{"start":3150.25,"end":3154.431,"text":"委員翁曉玲等17人擬具 «憲法訴訟法第四十五條條文修正草案》案。．二、本院委員翁曉玲等17人擬具 «憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案。．請審議"},{"start":3168.795,"end":3183.052,"text":"必須有這樣的配套的設置,我們才能夠去用一個綱性的法定總額,而不是用現有總額。所以對於我們本案,目前我們看到的第四條,而且我們在過去也表達過,第四條它直接將"},{"start":3184.537,"end":3206.323,"text":"第三項,針列第三項,直接將以後憲訴法裡面所說的所謂的現有總額,就是指法定原額。那這一項加進去又很荒謬的,不是很反諷的呢,它這裡明明白白第四條的本意是什麼?憲法法庭審理規則由司法院定之,前項規則由全體大法官一決之。"},{"start":3207.663,"end":3231.702,"text":"就連第四條本身就很明白的說明了在憲法機關的分權上第四條核心他就告訴你整個憲法訴訟法跟他底下的審理規則都是由大法官自己來決定當然在法的位階上他是由立法院來完成但是立法院基於對其他憲法機關的尊重我們在第四條彰顯由大法官"},{"start":3233.503,"end":3256.783,"text":"自治治理的規則下面橫空而出一個第三項要硬是採行一個過去在82年我們制定在憲法訴訟法之前的前身的大法案案件審理法當中由當時的執政黨就明明白白說出了就是大法官的總額就是指現有總額要去改變這樣的規則實在是讓我們覺得非常的會讓外界疑慮啦"},{"start":3261.647,"end":3270.707,"text":"那至於說在另外三十條跟第四十三條是指參與評議的額數規定我想如果前面的這樣的一個三十條"},{"start":3273.017,"end":3296.251,"text":"第四條做成如此剛性的規定,卻沒有任何的配套。那麼後面呢,這根本就無從去適用。更不用說在我們幾次司法院的說明報告當中,都有提到這樣的一個倉促粗糙的修法呢,甚至連自己憲法訴訟法第十二條迴避的規定都沒有去勾改。目前憲法訴訟法十二條他說,依本法迴避之大法官不記錄現有總額之人數。"},{"start":3298.291,"end":3304.559,"text":"那這樣就如何去維持?如果你的現有總額在第四條用法定原額把它剛性的就是定為15席了,"},{"start":3305.185,"end":3327.598,"text":"那迴避的法官又不記錄在現有總額元素計算,那到底我們要用哪一個才是叫做法定總額,才是現有總額。現有總額變成法定總額是15名,那這15名到底要不要扣掉迴避的大法官,也完全沒有處理。所以呢,基本上這樣的一個認知,我們真的不曉得說,你在第四條加上了一個法定元額的剛性規定,又怎麼樣去適用12條迴避的規定。迴避的規定,"},{"start":3331.154,"end":3351.719,"text":"委員翁曉玲等23人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第四十五條條文修正草案案．一、本院司法及法制委員翁曉玲等19人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第十五條條文修正草案案．一、本院司法及法制委員翁曉玲等19人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第十五條條文修正草案案．一、本院司法及法制委員翁曉玲等19人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第十五條條文修正草案案．一、本院司法及法制委員翁曉玲等19人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第十五條條條文修正草案"},{"start":3359.361,"end":3360.302,"text":"委員翁曉玲等23人擬具"},{"start":3375.329,"end":3389.961,"text":"滿足社會對於憲法訴訟法充分的討論之後我想社會就必須採取他們之力救濟這也是我們所不樂見的所以我們希望今天的由國民黨召委所發起的黨團協商我們希望能夠就近的踩住煞車以上"},{"start":3392.233,"end":3394.194,"text":"謝謝趙偉我想今天的一個協商其實說他嚴肅也非常嚴肅但是說他"},{"start":3421.322,"end":3449.44,"text":"這個整個過程裏面修法可能是有點輕挑我相信在歐委員的提案裏面大家討論很久了他的正面意義他想表達的就是說多元的意見跟觀點避免這個削弱裁判的多元性跟公正性還有專業公信力我記得從大好綱會議到台灣37年的時候就有了"},{"start":3451.522,"end":3465.228,"text":"大法官會做成到現在去挑戰他的人不多不多不管是誰執政挑戰他的人都不多那以你去提到說要把整個法定總額這個把它放進去的話"},{"start":3466.616,"end":3476.669,"text":"我最擔心的就是說其實你假設的那種情況其實也從來沒有發生過啦什麼三四個人有辦法去做成判決這個從過去的實務上的一個運作從來就沒有發生過這種事"},{"start":3482.597,"end":3507.756,"text":"反倒是啊反倒是啊你把這個整額整個法令總額你把它放進去以後啊才會造成實質上來癱瘓掉整個憲法法庭以後的一個運作這個大家都明講啊這個大家都明講嘛但問題就是說當憲政機關之間產生爭議你到最後我相信最終的解鈴人一定是憲法法庭"},{"start":3508.496,"end":3523.932,"text":"那如果說人民的權益遭受到侵害你說要找誰當然你最後那一關也只是到憲法法庭去就是說發生人民的基本權利受到侵害或者有憲政爭議的時候你最後你還是要這個大官來做終局的一個裁判"},{"start":3531.004,"end":3557.5,"text":"那如果說你現在把按照你修法這樣子把這個整個原格這樣把它固定了改為法定總額你把它固定成15人以後啊會很麻煩啊我覺得會很麻煩的就是說你擔心的是從來沒有發生過的然後呢比如說你大法官因為在國會裡面啊這個同意權如果說久了很有可能會發生啊以國民黨來看的話你會哪一個提出來你搞不好全部都不滿意啊"},{"start":3558.308,"end":3574.955,"text":"你如果全部都不滿意啊不滿意以後你造成你憲法法庭就一定停擺這大家都知道的我要強調就是說其實國家是大家的啦國家真的是大家的啦因為你你這個一個一修法以後啊你很容易預測會發生什麼事嘛我就說這一次大官任期到了"},{"start":3583.082,"end":3604.127,"text":"這幾個重新再補到要再補大官的一個人數如果在國會沒有辦法通過沒有辦法通過的理由很多因為每一個在立法院裡面學法的人其實也不多他好的人壞的人他也未必知道都是黨團的意志哪怕我跟你講他很有"},{"start":3605.43,"end":3605.45,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":3622.944,"end":3638.217,"text":"韓國議員"},{"start":3638.337,"end":3638.817,"text":"國民黨委員翁曉玲等19人擬具"},{"start":3663.613,"end":3666.82,"text":"民進黨這樣的一個擔憂或者法界的這些擔憂你們認為這些都不存在的嗎?"},{"start":3670.29,"end":3697.326,"text":"你們真的認為是不存在的嗎?只因為我說我人數就比你多一點我就硬要通過那你通過的目的是幹什麼?你說難道是只因為你大法官會議你這個憲法法庭你這個一個判決誰叫你要做出什麼這個國會的一個擴權法案那麼多把它宣告違憲本來就是他該有的一個工作各位去把它想想看喔大法官如果缺有的不能依法來行之降職權的話"},{"start":3699.68,"end":3701.381,"text":"憲法訴訟法第四十五條條文修正草案．請審議案。．請審議案。．請審議案。"},{"start":3727.441,"end":3745.903,"text":"在國會裡面這些大法官的同意權行使不通過一直要換一直要換換到國民黨喜歡才有辦法那像類似這樣的驗尿的強制抽血這一些你就沒有辦法來做出一個憲法法庭的一個判決出來"},{"start":3746.932,"end":3766.613,"text":"例如說首次暫時處分針對不同國籍小孩歸屬這個部分他把那個整個判決把它廢棄掉加持法庭的那個判決然後直接發回去更審但如果說沒有憲法法庭的話請問像這種案子你怎麼辦那如果說軍事法院跟普通法院你又判決又不同的時候你怎麼辦"},{"start":3769.65,"end":3770.131,"text":"委員翁曉玲等15人擬具"},{"start":3777.705,"end":3782.148,"text":"一、本院委員翁曉玲等23人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第四十三條條文修正草案．一、本院委員翁曉玲等23人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第四十三條條文修正草案．請審議案．請審議案．請審議"},{"start":3801.519,"end":3805.44,"text":"高門檻的同意做成判決,這個其實叫做走回頭路,而且畢竟這個回頭路以前還沒有到法定總額。各位你去把它看看,我們2019年憲法訴訟法在2022年施行,把過去三分之二的同意,然後三分之二把它做一個降低。"},{"start":3826.088,"end":3851.153,"text":"那是避免造成判決速度的一個太緩慢,緩不濟急啊。你說,你說憲訴法實行這兩年做成48次的一個判決啊。那其實如果看我們的還不夠的話,我們再來看看我剛所提到的國際上的一個經驗啊。南韓在,南韓的憲法第111條是九名大法官來組成,七名同意的一個高門檻。但是,今年來不及提名這個最終憲法法庭的判決,就"},{"start":3853.935,"end":3860.178,"text":"暫停適用高的總額。南非也同樣,南非憲法167條規定11名大法官,8名參與評議,但並未規範可決門檻,避免判決速度太慢。"},{"start":3872.302,"end":3882.638,"text":"各位再來想一想看喔你現行的憲法訴訟法我們對正副總統的彈劾案跟違憲政黨的一個解散案我們設定的是三分之二的一個高門檻"},{"start":3884.259,"end":3905.776,"text":"為什麼他設定三分之二的高門檻?就是覺得他跟一般憲法法庭的你的評議跟判決他比你更高一點那假設都是當初的設計是如此才是一個高門檻那你難道你忘了修這一條嗎?這個更高的那就變成你沒有辦法去做差別待遇了你沒辦法去做差別待遇了"},{"start":3908.837,"end":3915.46,"text":"那就變成說這一次提案你僅提高了一般判決跟暫時處分的一個門檻那你卻未去提升整個彈劾或者解散門檻這個失去它的一個橫屏啊究法論法來看的話這個確實是有待來做一個考慮的"},{"start":3926.045,"end":3943.179,"text":"倉促去修法．你注意去把它看．如果像比如說我們整個憲法的彈劾規定彈根據憲法正修條文第四條第七項你是立法院來提出政府總統的一個彈劾並由大法官來做一個審理那你根據憲法訴訟法你第五章部分的75條你只要達到三分之二決議才得以彈劾喔"},{"start":3947.783,"end":3968.767,"text":"所以你就失去那個一個橫屏啊啊失去那個橫屏啊啊那我最後要講的就是說歷史上啊你只要去對跟大法官因為他的不滿意啊來引發這樣的一個報復啊來發動這樣的一個報復啊其實這個走回頭路到底好不好各位就想一想"},{"start":3971.117,"end":3997.606,"text":"大法官在做出第七十六號解釋就是1958提高大法官做成的判決的門檻比如說在1948年的時候就37年大法官會議規則裡面是二分之一第十二條是二分之一出席二分之一的決議大法官會議應有大法官總額半數出席出席大法官過半數同意使得作為一個決議那到了1952年"},{"start":4000.376,"end":4020.767,"text":"修正大法官會議的準則是三分之二出席二分之一決議那到了一九五八去提高你把他提高四分之三出席四分之三同意有沒有過有曾經這樣過但這是什麼原因這個是因為大法官做成七十六號解釋說你去否認我國大是這個是唯一的民意機關"},{"start":4024.596,"end":4033.22,"text":"立法院就火大了就把你整個憲法訴訟法的部分大法官會議的規則當初叫大法官會議規則你就去把它提高門檻來做這樣的一個報復但是每一次的一個報復裡面其實產生的民意的一個反撲我相信大家都記憶猶新都是記憶猶新最主要"},{"start":4053.615,"end":4081.306,"text":"在2004年的時候你看那個釋字585啊你限定立法院調查權的行使的不過那個時候國新在隔年就去提三檢大法官的專業佳績啊所以大法官也在2005年做成601號的宣告把它宣告違憲可是呢現在這國民黨跟民政黨民政黨到底會不會最後會不會挺國民黨我不知道但我倒覺得這不是誰挺誰的問題啦"},{"start":4083.103,"end":4100.441,"text":"就說在一個任何的修法要有他修法的一個理由修法的理由是怕擔心會有極端會有極端的一個狀況你說比如說三四個這個修法的預設的這種狀況可是我們必須要提出來說從過去到現在從來沒有發生過哪怕"},{"start":4106.073,"end":4116.336,"text":"大家講的台大那個案子有迴避那個部分那還是到九個人還是到九個人也從來不會產生什麼三個到四個憲法法庭"},{"start":4117.688,"end":4130.838,"text":"他這個我們不敢講說他是叫位高權重啊就是說他是一個備受國人尊重大家也知道尤其是學法的人全部都知道憲法法庭他這樣要摸下去你說要改調法定總額要寵下去讓你到最後你因為的一個法定總額放在那個地方讓你開不成會"},{"start":4145.213,"end":4145.373,"text":"國民黨時代如此"},{"start":4173.408,"end":4202.828,"text":"國民黨時代如此,民進黨時代也如此,實行判決那個是一個價值啦,那你可以有自己的價值判斷,那大法官裡面其實啊,其實憲法法庭也好,或者說一般的法庭也好,法官是不應該跳出來辯護的啦,法官本來就應該無語,你要嘛你就去看他的判決書,你就用專業的意見你去跟他提出批判,這個都是可以的,可是重點就是說,立法院沒這個能力啊,"},{"start":4203.848,"end":4223.903,"text":"立法院沒有這個能力沒有這個法學素養去對憲法法庭提出對他來抨擊那你只能訴諸政治上的一個力量就只有這樣子而已用這樣的報復的方式我是覺得真的不好吳仲健召委他本身也是法律人我們都是法律人我們都是法律人"},{"start":4224.949,"end":4252.784,"text":"我剛剛講了這些話我說國民黨執政的大法官他所做出的憲法的以前叫大法官會議解釋被我去批評的也很少因為你現在做成的判決書裡面你說就算我同意我也可以部分不同意見書我也可以有協同意見書我也可以有不同完全反對的一個看法都會有這個叫做什麼這個叫做多元的觀點"},{"start":4254.495,"end":4280.277,"text":"這個叫做說你要這個判決你要達成一個權威正反見解全部在那個地方足弓啊所有的人民啊啊讓他很公開的還有法界啊去做一個評論啊啊其實我倒會覺得說以這樣的一個我擔心的最最最最擔心的方式就是如果法定總額一設下去立法院再用同"},{"start":4281.935,"end":4297.495,"text":"通緯權的方式來做一個反對的話整個憲法法庭癱瘓掉對政黨都小事對立法院也都小事因為立法委員薪水照領你也不會痛搞不好還很開心可是對整個制度對過去"},{"start":4300.258,"end":4322.146,"text":"憲法法庭他有可以把整個憲政上的爭議還有人民基本權利的一個救濟你把這個路你把他堵死了我是認為期期以為不可啦這個是我也請提案的翁委員這個是再考慮一下啦真的再考慮一下因為我真的看不出你這個修法那個正當性有強到說那翁委員那個就對了啊"},{"start":4327.506,"end":4346.365,"text":"我們在司法法制委員會就哪怕政府提出來的法案這翁委員你也很清楚我常常都是反對的我很堅持的可是呢我就看了你的提案以後我就覺得你這個正當性非常非常的一個薄弱"},{"start":4347.125,"end":4358.972,"text":"你非常薄弱你把它去除說我對憲法法令很不爽我對一次這個整個立法院的資訊新司法這件事你把它放到旁邊去幹你說你修這個法律的正當性或者那必要性在什麼地方沒有發生過你擔心的事情沒有發生過是啊從過去到現在都已經是如此沒有發生過你說擔心一個噢可能會發生所以我先來預防"},{"start":4376.63,"end":4401.285,"text":"這也不對這也不對為什麼會什麼兩三個來造成不會有這種狀況所以面對外界會去質疑說會實質上癱瘓掉整個憲法法庭的運作你也很清楚啦沒有通過統一權沒有通過就實質癱瘓掉啦難道這樣你會很開心嗎那我請問碰到這種狀況你怎麼辦你怎麼去補救"},{"start":4405.379,"end":4418.549,"text":"立法者怎可如此立法者怎可如此我這個是很嚴肅的一個問題喔很嚴肅的一個問題喔也就是說從盤古開天從過去有大法官會議到後來變成憲法法庭的時候他做出了一個判決裡面老百姓是很遵守的甚至會認為說哪怕過去國民黨在紀元時代就有一個大法官會議在那個地方"},{"start":4435.165,"end":4451.309,"text":"你至少,欸,大法官,你不要開玩笑喔,那政黨太好笑,大法官會議會把你宣告是違憲喔。連戒嚴時期都會有大法官會議的一個運作啊。那我們走入了進入了民主,然後這麼多元,這麼開放的一個社會,我們反而是輕易的說我要憲法訴訟法。"},{"start":4458.291,"end":4466.514,"text":"我來做一個修訂我本立法定總額就是15那你如果是在立法院行使同意權的時候我再打掉幾個就好啦沒啦沒啦六個六個那你永遠憲法法庭全部都癱瘓會不會發生就像你講的很有可能發生但是我不做預測我講萬一發生那你怎麼辦"},{"start":4488.939,"end":4509.989,"text":"百分之九十九確實是人民所提的基本權利的一個受侵害的時候他提起的憲法訴訟啊。真正由行政部門去提出憲法法庭要去徵訟的,不到百分之一啊!不到百分之一啊!如果一個政府機關提出的憲法的一個徵訟,"},{"start":4511.28,"end":4531.898,"text":"假設你認為全部都是挖民進洞的那個都是民進黨的大法官假設你這樣認為說大法官是沒有良心的哪一個政黨提名的全部都是看哪一個政黨我就從剛剛講到現在連國民黨過去連戒嚴連國民黨過去在威權統治白色恐怖那麼愛殺老百姓的大法官會議做出來的決定我們也沒有去這樣質疑他那何況現在"},{"start":4539.611,"end":4561.133,"text":"是各個政黨每一個人一把號,不管是要直播或者開記者會,那個都直接可以向民眾對人民直接來做一個訴求,可是用這樣到最後你把這樣的一個修法,到最後如果是實質來癱換掉整個憲法法庭的一個運作的話,"},{"start":4562.054,"end":4581.294,"text":"再想一下啦,因為我跟你質疑這一些,你也應該很清楚,很有可能要發生的啦,很有可能要發生,那過去的經驗也告訴我們啦,也告訴我們啦,就是說每一次去挑戰大法跟會議喔,這都不是好事啦,因為你如果做,你也可以做八黨啦,"},{"start":4585.444,"end":4591.787,"text":"我老兒子我也不能做太久啦人在當立法委員不要以為當了立法委員你就是最厲害啦我用不客氣講我幾乎從來沒有在批評你的你很清楚我從來不批評你的漂亮的巫婆漂亮的巫婆我告訴你喔這個如果一通過了以後喔這就不是巫婆可以做解釋了我跟你講這就變成說你提這種案"},{"start":4615.953,"end":4616.393,"text":"我開始懷疑喔"},{"start":4643.539,"end":4670.128,"text":"我真的開始懷疑喔不是我是說我說這樣的這樣的這樣的寫出來的一個我提出這一些啊就是說你怎麼會貿然你知道會發生什麼一個法律人我不是不是跟你講了嗎我就講這一些給你聽了安委員我們先等一下那那個中委員你不要問他是不是學法律他就學法律啦"},{"start":4670.988,"end":4671.008,"text":"請審議案。"},{"start":4677.188,"end":4683.231,"text":"我提出的這些理由來做一個懷疑,我也不說他誰的壞,他很漂亮的壞。可是你剛剛已經批評到我的專業,所以我就覺得我需要出來回應啊。不是,我批評到你的專業,我是就事論述在批評。"},{"start":4701.141,"end":4726.2,"text":"我這就你的條文不是你的底子你的底子搞不好你下一步提出來我給你拍手也不一定啊都大大的給你拍手我說你這一個條文讓我這樣質疑好不好不要誤會那那個省委員有要發表意見嗎那麥委員還是先翁委員"},{"start":4727.571,"end":4727.791,"text":"憲法委員翁曉玲"},{"start":4749.291,"end":4752.832,"text":"現有總額就是指實際在任留任的這些大法官就可以做成憲法判決"},{"start":4775.476,"end":4795.033,"text":"此情況基本上是違反我們在講到的這個憲法審理程序的嚴謹性而且大家知道大法官是解釋憲法他相當的程度已經在造憲了我們要修改一個憲法條文的門檻是多高"},{"start":4796.407,"end":4816.372,"text":"不僅是立法院要四分之三出席三分之二同意通過才能提案還要經過全國人民的這過半數的同意覆決才可以修憲大法官少少幾個人他透過解釋憲法的權利就可以去造憲可以去造法這樣子的情形是多麼的危險"},{"start":4824.209,"end":4846.437,"text":"在其他國家,這個大法官,這個憲法法院的法官,他要宣告一個法律文憲,都要三分之二的這個同意啊。我們現在是二分之一的同意。再加上我剛剛說的,以現在留任的大法官,這個不管人數多少,他都可以做成憲法判決。這樣規定合理嗎?我這邊我想請教秘書長,因為您大概"},{"start":4851.107,"end":4877.37,"text":"對於整個憲法訴訟法的規定是十分的了解。我想請問如果說今天有死刑犯再度申請釋憲認為死刑是違憲的那麼以現在的剩下的八位大法官可不可以受理這個案子他可不可以做成他是不是可以開憲法法庭的會議來做成評議"},{"start":4881.502,"end":4882.142,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4902.77,"end":4917.254,"text":"五位大法官就可以做成宣告死刑是違憲的?憲法判決?我先講現在的憲法訴訟法問題是不是五位大法官就可以宣告死刑是違憲的?"},{"start":4931.189,"end":4931.209,"text":"．二．"},{"start":4946.069,"end":4946.969,"text":"我現在講流刃的現在八位"},{"start":4976.533,"end":4999.974,"text":"我都聽得懂翁委員的問題嗎?你就按照問題回答好不好?我真的覺得你作為一個司法院的副秘書長、代理秘書長,你作為一個法律人,你不敢講這個問題嗎?好,副秘書長,您也是法律人,您過去也擔任法官,您應該很了解憲法訴訟法的規定。您就說五位就可能坐城,難道不是這樣嗎?"},{"start":5002.025,"end":5005.306,"text":"我只能說我就是對於現司法院的表現非常的不滿感慨你們太膽怯了這麼簡單的問題"},{"start":5027.308,"end":5053.435,"text":"賣玉珍委員不是選法員都很清楚規定就是如此你的計算方式就是這樣不要在這邊跟我講說什麼極不極端的問題發生是不是好你現在講的狀況是如果八位大法官全員出席或是有六位出席五個座城請問你們現在留院的八位大法官裡面有幾個是十五屆的十五屆大法官出生十五屆法官出生的"},{"start":5057.66,"end":5080.962,"text":"現在留任的實務界裡面法官的是三位,一位是檢察官。好,如果這三位法官,這三位大法官,實務界出身的大法官,過去都曾經與這個申請釋憲案的當事人,都曾經參與過這個申請釋憲案的當事人的相關案件,他要不要迴避?"},{"start":5093.234,"end":5118.883,"text":"好所以呢八位大法官裡面一共有三位大法官曾經參與過先前的案子的審理是不是要迴避嗎要迴避嗎其實是有是有迴避你現在的規定來講就是要迴避嗎是不是你依照你十二條的規定是不是要迴避是吧對不對你八位扣掉三位所以五位大法官開庭審理嗎那做成判決的是幾位"},{"start":5122.759,"end":5130.027,"text":"副秘書長,如果你一直不回答問題,我們是不是可以請楊廷長回答?因為你搞不清楚狀況嘛。"},{"start":5144.462,"end":5147.684,"text":"法律是必須在防弊,就是防止極端的情況發生。我現在是講一個合理的問題喔。"},{"start":5164.073,"end":5167.835,"text":"按照委員的涉提,三位大法官都要迴避的話當然是五位,不過我可不可以補充一下?"},{"start":5188.274,"end":5191.737,"text":"現有總額的三分之二出席是幾位?現有總額的一半一樣是三位"},{"start":5206.3,"end":5214.449,"text":"出席三位大法官通過就可以做成一個宣告死刑違憲的憲法裁判。"},{"start":5224.62,"end":5231.506,"text":"法官出征的大法官只有蔡財臻大法官曾經審理過其中的原因案件李太陽大法官跟楊蕙琦大法官從來沒有審理過這樣的案件"},{"start":5242.114,"end":5270.927,"text":"所以我現在是剛好這一件個案才會有迴避的問題對我現在是要舉例舉例的問題就是這樣對我們要法律為什麼要我們要把這個規定規定的這個想很多的極端情話要要想清楚我們就是要防備防止這種極端的情形出現這就是為什麼其他國家都會特別的規範法就是這個憲法法庭的出席人數他有一個最低的門檻但是我們現在台灣沒有我們台灣沒有"},{"start":5272.051,"end":5291.742,"text":"至於說大法官能不能補齊大法官空轉會不會造成憲法法庭的癱瘓的這件事情跟修法無關我必須說跟修法無關大法官空轉是因為這個法律造成的嗎坦白說不是"},{"start":5293.424,"end":5300.827,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商．一、本院司法及法制委員會報告併案審查．一、本院司法及法制委員會報告併案審查．一、本院司法及法制委員會報告"},{"start":5319.894,"end":5343.546,"text":"我可以回答嗎?是。是。這個部分我想要說明的是說,整個性有種的制度從國民政府遷台之後,因為就考慮到說因為我國的任命權跟同意權,提名權跟同意權、任命權,它這個部分在不同機關的情況下,有可能造成一個憲政機關的人員缺額。所以當年其實從道爾關17人第一次提名的時候,其實就有缺額5人。"},{"start":5345.27,"end":5363.798,"text":"來臺灣的時候其實當時大法官只有12個人一直在這樣運作的情況之下維持憲法總統的運作確實我們不否認有委員所擔心的可能情形不過一直以來一直以來其實即便是最多缺額的就是在陳水扁總統那時候曾經有4位被否決那現在法庭還是大法官會議用11位來進行處理"},{"start":5366.102,"end":5367.003,"text":"議員翁曉玲等23人擬具"},{"start":5392.421,"end":5417.688,"text":"五位大法官或三位大法官作成的憲法判決跟十位大法官作成的憲法判決會不會有差別?我想我可以舉德國聯邦憲法法院為例子。十六個法官分兩庭,一庭只有八個法官。他們宣告法律違憲要多少法官同意?但是他們八個,他們分庭這裡。你只要告訴我他們宣告法律違憲的大法官要多少人?他們其實只要六個人出席。"},{"start":5418.428,"end":5442.674,"text":"所以他們三分之二對他們三分之二他們三分之二四個法官就可以宣告了委員他們分庭一個庭只有八個法官而已其實他們做審判決的統一門檻以人數來說甚至比台灣是更低的那台灣因為我們沒有分庭審理我們是一整個大庭那你告訴我德國聯邦憲法法院的大法官怎麼產生是總統一個人提名的嗎"},{"start":5447.947,"end":5472.725,"text":"不是不是怎麼產生這個部分我可不可以核對一下資料再跟您報告他絕對不會是總統一個人提名的絕對不會是內閣一個人提名的他是國會各方面的大家共同有共識認為這些大法官是適合的我現在要強調的地方就是現在我還沒有提到大法官提名的問題但是很清楚的就是"},{"start":5473.806,"end":5502.902,"text":"無論如何,他們都還是三分之二啊。我們今天在這邊有三分之二做門檻嗎?人家的大法官德國這麼大。報告委員,德國聯邦憲法法院他們是二分之一。我們今天的資料有提。三分之二出席,二分之一。對,他是二分之一。那你為什麼不講日本?你為什麼不講法國?為什麼不講韓國?日本做審判決也是簡單多數。法國也是簡單多數。但是他們有沒有最低的門檻?有,但是他們有搭配配套措施。所以我現在做到的還是要最低的門檻。他們,他們,他法官或者有繼任的制度。"},{"start":5504.703,"end":5522.002,"text":"司法院在乎的是我們沒有配套措施的情況之下,如果只用法定原格的話,那這樣會讓我們沒辦法運作嗎?司法院在乎的是沒有配套措施,那你們之後可以提案,那你為什麼不提案?然後另外我要再講的就是,憲法法庭的審理的這個規則,這固然"},{"start":5525.957,"end":5553.4,"text":"現在是定在這個大法官的這個在憲法訴訟法的第四條啊那麼由司法院定之但是是這個是不是立法授權讓你們可以去定審理規則我今天我認為有些項目不適合立法授權讓司法院去定定那這樣的一個情況這就是我的立法政策的選擇我的立法形成的這個立法形成的自由有立法這個的裁量的空間"},{"start":5554.261,"end":5555.063,"text":"憲法第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":5564.517,"end":5592.253,"text":"修改這個就是一個合法合憲的而且屬於立法立法者的一個政策選擇政策裁量的空間我要再次強調的就是剛剛其實司法院講的你們都是說在正常的狀況底下不會發生但是現在就是有可能會有出現不正常的狀況不正常的狀況的憲法法庭做出來的憲法判決"},{"start":5593.154,"end":5594.455,"text":"大法官空轉的這件事情"},{"start":5618.444,"end":5618.464,"text":"請審議案。．"},{"start":5636.621,"end":5648.844,"text":"法律提案有關,我們現在是在建立制度,是在建立一個讓臺灣憲法訴訟、憲法裁判,朝向更為合理、更為健全的方向去發展。剛剛莊瑞雄委員說,高門檻的判決是會走回頭路。"},{"start":5662.199,"end":5689.089,"text":"我想他為什麼不去對大法官說這句話大法官不是才在最近的這個死刑有條件合憲的判決裡面要求各級審的法院法官到一致決啊他怎麼不去批評大法官然後我們現在提高這個高門檻還沒有到一致決耶從二分之一提高到三分之二過去這麼多年來大法官會議不是都能夠運作"},{"start":5690.956,"end":5692.357,"text":"現有總要明定成為法定原額,這樣才能夠讓"},{"start":5718.89,"end":5744.545,"text":"憲法法庭有更多的大法官可以實質的去參與討論出席做成評議。現在看起來這個民進黨其實一直在杯葛這個法案。那很多的律師口口聲聲說我們這個法律條文通過之後會影響到人民的申請釋憲權。"},{"start":5747.27,"end":5775.704,"text":"事實上,上次副秘書長這邊也報告,司法院也報告過,97%的人民申請案,或是99%的人民申請案,幾乎有97%或是95%的案子是被駁回的,是不受理的。你們現在在憲法法庭還有三四百件的案子已經受理了,但是沒有審議。"},{"start":5777.86,"end":5805.622,"text":"對十五位大法官說為什麼不好趕快審呢你們不才是耽擱人民的憲法釋憲人民的這個釋憲救濟權啊現在如果說是把大法官就是讓這少少的留任的這七八位大法官然後讓他們去決定哪些人民的申請案可以受理哪些人民申請案不可以受理我告訴你人民才會大反彈"},{"start":5806.923,"end":5807.924,"text":"委員,我可以跟您說明一下嗎?"},{"start":5829.471,"end":5855.406,"text":"就是針對你剛剛這個部分容我補充一下就是說事實上我們的衛檢案裡面已經受理的案子只有28件那當28件是主案那當然還有包括其他併案那其他的部分其實是我們申請還沒有受理還沒有處理那為什麼都還沒有處理那當然這部分涉及到因為有些案子他非常複雜在等相關機關含糊那今年不可諱言的因為死刑案跟國會法案這個部分"},{"start":5855.786,"end":5855.986,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":5871.278,"end":5873.48,"text":"二、本院委員翁曉玲等二．委員翁曉玲等三．委員翁曉玲等三．"},{"start":5894.078,"end":5913.291,"text":"單誤了人民的申請釋憲權。該審理的不用再說了。謝謝你。那麼我想就是說總結就是剛剛所講到的幾個問題沒有就是講得很清楚了啊就是他們一些案子就是沒有審啊"},{"start":5928.194,"end":5948.146,"text":"所以這一百二十八件的審,然後就讓少少的幾位大法官去審。這樣做出來的判決能夠讓人信服嗎?對不對,你們很多基本上不是維持憲刑法律,要不然就推翻,是同樣的邏輯啊,人民會一直信服嗎?我告訴你,其實簡單來說,就是你少數大法官,你做成的憲法裁判,"},{"start":5948.966,"end":5949.006,"text":"委員翁"},{"start":5967.305,"end":5983.489,"text":"但我要說明的是,目前我們新制施行以來的51則判決裡面,絕大多數都是人民申請而做成的。是啊,你們一年只做成多少個判決,你告訴我嗎?才20個嘛,一年做20個嘛,你們今年做了幾個?我們少該努力要去審理那些案子,而不是說你們一直擔憂,好謝謝你們不用再說了。我們連人民申請暫時處分的案件,我們都沒有辦法處理。"},{"start":5990.891,"end":6016.502,"text":"我們連人民申請暫時處分有急迫性案子我們都沒辦法出。你們告訴我現在有幾個有申請暫時處分?不要在那邊說嘛,沒有嘛,現在也沒有。有,我們最近都有收到,跟我們報告。對啊,你們也可以做球啊,你們什麼都可以做啊。而且我告訴你們,這是你們的問題,我是認為說,我還是回到我剛剛講的,錯誤不當的憲法裁判比不做成更可怕。"},{"start":6019.284,"end":6026.471,"text":"大法官沒有足額之前,你們所做的這些憲法判決都會被民眾強烈的質疑。"},{"start":6033.509,"end":6033.75,"text":"憲法訴訟法相當的修正草案。"},{"start":6050.707,"end":6052.968,"text":"字幕由 Amara.org 社群提供"},{"start":6074.773,"end":6075.613,"text":"委員翁曉玲等23人擬具"},{"start":6105.353,"end":6129.491,"text":"好那這一個齁我第一個先講一下這一個程序上的一個問題齁就是說呢現在同一個時間齁有非常重要的跟這個不管是大法官的人事案齁還有這一個呃所謂的這一個調查權齁還有選罷法齁這個同時間的協商是院長協商啦齁跟這一個趙偉協商的不一樣但這個時間衝突啦齁所以我一直都還是覺得齁我們這一個協商看起來還是有討論的可能啦齁"},{"start":6130.131,"end":6157.737,"text":"但是應該要延後啦我覺得不是保留所以我不贊成麥委員的講法說什麼保留我們的確應該都還是有討論的空間因為從剛剛發言到現在每一個人的問題其實非常聚焦的所以我的建議是應該是要往後然後再繼續這個協商而不是保留然後到最後由院長協商這是第一個第二個就是為什麼我們要說要繼續協商就是因為這個案件在社會上的爭議其實非常非常的大"},{"start":6158.337,"end":6187.341,"text":"大家也知道明天就會有一些律師他們說要遊行當然我知道趙偉也有批評說這是一個什麼綠營側翼但是我要講一下不是只有不是只有這些立委而不是只有這些這個律師還有全綠還有北綠我想說全綠跟北綠應該不太可能全部是側翼所以我就覺得說在那麼重大的爭議的狀況之下是不是大家能夠緩一緩因為這個很明顯我們的在爭執的點是很聚焦的"},{"start":6187.961,"end":6211.515,"text":"那我現在回到我們這個爭議的,因為等一下還要上去另外一個協商。第一個就是,如果剛剛溫委員一直提到很多的極端狀況,那我還是要講一下,這個極端狀況它發生的百分比,有可能是1%,0.5%,結果你因為1%可能發生的機率,然後要把整個制度做修改,這不是很奇怪的事情嗎?"},{"start":6212.455,"end":6219.678,"text":"如果你認為有1%、2%的機率會發生極端狀況,那你不是應該要做一些條款去針對這個1%跟2%的極端狀況來做修改這樣才對嗎?你怎麼可能會因為1%的極端狀況,然後要把整個的規則修掉?法律原則沒有人在這樣跑的嗎?"},{"start":6232.402,"end":6254.771,"text":"所以再來呢這個我覺得非常重要的一點就是在於說如果我們今天真的認為有極端狀況像剛剛提到譬如說死刑然後如果現在來申請然後多少人依照我們現在迴避的條文就算到最後只有五個人決定或就算最後只有三個人決定這其實是正常現象這也不是什麼極端狀況"},{"start":6256.232,"end":6283.255,"text":"因為畢竟如果他該迴避的就迴避那他如果人數不足人數不足是立法院這邊要不要審的問題這是政治問題所以如果因為政治的問題因為立法院這邊的人士還沒有出來其他的國家在針對這個時候是有針對延任的規定啊德國就有啊我們國家沒有啊如果你真的很害怕這樣的極端狀況那就把類似德國這樣延任的規定定到我們的法律一條而已這樣不就搞定了嗎"},{"start":6284.136,"end":6302.939,"text":"這不是一個條文就可以解決的問題結果你要把整個現有總額的規定做這個修改這 這個法律原則上就一定不符合所以我認同剛剛莊委員講的嘛就是說這個謨言很明顯這是一個法律素養的問題是法律的ABC欸從來沒有人修法是這個樣子"},{"start":6303.9,"end":6330.174,"text":"我昨天也才跟我委員講過你不能說今天門鎖鬆了門鎖鬆了你第一件事情是什麼你要把門鎖關緊嘛你要找鎖匠把這個門鎖看一看嘛結果沒有你說要把門拆掉又或者說我們從今天開始就不要鎖門怎麼可能會有人用這樣的一個方式來修法所以這個一開始的動機還有他一開始所講的理由完全的不充分第二個就是第十二條的問題第十二條他是在講"},{"start":6331.235,"end":6354.934,"text":"回避該怎麼做司法院其實講得很清楚這是一個這是一個跟目前第四條會直接矛盾矛盾在哪裡第四條現有總額現在直接拉到跟法定總額一樣它是個定額你今天第十二條它是浮動數額欸這個在數學上你要怎麼用浮動數額然後用現有的總額法定總額做計算這就是算不了啊這是一個天生的矛盾這是數學問題"},{"start":6356.095,"end":6356.295,"text":"再來還有新舊法的問題"},{"start":6385.197,"end":6409.749,"text":"我都先不要講說剛剛莊委員提到每一個地方的門檻到底一不一致喔如果現在我們新舊法產生爭議的時候到底哪些情況要用新法哪些情況要用舊法這個裡面沒有講欸沒有講的話然後結果現在在協商然後就要出去如果之後就要二讀三讀請問這個爭議該怎麼解決然後更不要講說剛剛莊委員有提到的門檻本來是有一個嚴重的比較"},{"start":6410.609,"end":6429.887,"text":"需要慎重的事情我們可能要三分之二有一些情形我們可能需要二分之一你一致化全部都用三分之二來解決的話那你原來這個比例原則你針對不同的案件要做不同的處理的那個差別何在這個法律原則就已經不具備了嘛我以為比例原則還算是憲法的ABC就是公法的ABC"},{"start":6430.788,"end":6445.251,"text":"然後再講到剛剛他們一直提到這個說他們人都走掉了所以我也不知道這個協商到底問意義在哪裡明明所有的問題都攀在這一邊的明明所有的問題都可以去討論阿就這樣走掉那我們怎麼要討論所以我就說這個牌的時間真的有問題"},{"start":6446.252,"end":6468.664,"text":"再來就是一天到晚講這個國會自治我講兩個點就好了如果國會要自治那難道司法不用自治嗎司法獨立比我們的國會的自治還要來得更強大今天第四條明白規定說這個如何審理的規則是司法院自行定制那為什麼我們可以在第四條直接用這個現有總額的規定然後就做修改這個聽起來就沒有道理嘛"},{"start":6469.204,"end":6469.224,"text":"請審議案。．"},{"start":6488.322,"end":6515.962,"text":"阿這些人邏輯不好數學不好那為什麼每次舉手只要二分之一就可以通過你真的如果對這件事情很在意的話很好阿以後我們所有的法案都三分之二通過阿所有的法案都四分之三通過阿阿你說那這個不就跟修憲一樣了嗎阿這個難道都沒有差異了嗎阿他們現在就要做這樣的事情阿他們就把所有的標準全部一致阿那我們乾脆如果要那麼謹慎的話所有都提到修憲的標準就好了嘛我們立法院以後就全部都這樣玩嘛全部都三分之二嘛這沒有道理嘛"},{"start":6516.562,"end":6538.473,"text":"所以今天這個所有的上面寫的這些理由他完全的不充分動機也是就派翁曉玲委員一個人出來談很明顯其他的國民黨委員他就是要硬推這個法案呢那不然為什麼現在要這樣做一個過水那請問其他的國民黨委員在哪裡他們為什麼不出來再來剛剛蔓玉珍委員講的他要贊成這個提案"},{"start":6540.07,"end":6551.635,"text":"當代法律黃山山才剛刊完文章欸才剛剛刊完文章說他們不贊成翁曉玲委員的提案那現在呢就是黃山山委員的意見不重要嗎"},{"start":6553.579,"end":6575.384,"text":"2015年黃國昌跟著司改會開記者會講了什麼他講說這一些事情如果有二分之一的法官就已經覺得很爛就表示這個法律真的有夠爛當然要用二分之一做門檻這黃國昌在2015年講的請問黃國昌現在講的不算數嗎是不是應該打電話叫他下來樓下說明一下為什麼剛剛按照麥玉珍委員的講法現在要贊成國民黨的提案"},{"start":6576.246,"end":6600.711,"text":"所以從剛剛講到現在我還有一堆都還沒有講這個所有不管是在程序上在修法的理由上在動機上條文的矛盾上所有都是問題耶在那麼大的問題裡面委員會已經做了那麼多的提醒甚至還有一些還可以直接淨附二讀那我們這些爭議如果都不管然後到最後交給院長協商也跟今天一樣講到一半人都走掉了"},{"start":6601.531,"end":6622.293,"text":"然後這個二法就這樣二讀三讀就要通過了然後外面的聲音我們也都不用管這個叫做注重民意嗎這跟注重我們國民黨最喜歡講說他們現在代表多數的民意我們要傾聽民意的聲音現在到底傾聽在哪裡完全不存在啊然後再回到剛剛郭委員講的他剛提了幾點他說其他國家都這樣"},{"start":6623.756,"end":6645.904,"text":"問題是就是不一樣啊其他國家第一個有配套措施第二個其他國家的制度他們選任大法官的方式跟我們不同嘛剛剛硬要去問說德國怎麼做德國是內閣制耶內閣制的提名跟同意的方式本來就跟台灣不同啊所以他沒有台灣的現在這種總統提名立法院結果不審或不同意的這種憲政危機的機制嘛"},{"start":6646.644,"end":6669.088,"text":"那他不需要處理這個機制那他的規定為什麼可以用在我們身上?如果國民黨那麼愛談死刑的話那也很好啊!德國廢死欸!如果都要抄德國的話那現在好啊!OK那我就看國民黨是不是就直接跟著德國然後現在就廢死好了因為反正什麼都要抄德國不是嗎?是不是完全都不用管文化了?也不用管他們的制度了?也不用管他們的政治背景了?是不是都可以不用管了?"},{"start":6669.639,"end":6674.944,"text":"用其他的國家怎麼樣就直接來說台灣應該修法這個是最不負責任的講法第二個他說什麼其他國家很多都是這個什麼這個五位他都會怎麼樣然後其他的國家至少要幾位像剛剛講的德國他其實是8加8"},{"start":6688.877,"end":6703.306,"text":"他不是跟我們一樣十幾個人全部一起做審議他八加八裡面六個出席到時候也是四個人那請問所以溫委員是認為說臺灣的三位四位大法官不值得信任德國的三位四位大法官就值得信任嗎"},{"start":6704.677,"end":6727.637,"text":"這個理由不充分嘛。如果你認為大法官不適格,你認為大法官做的決定你不滿意,你也有你的法學見解。我記得吳宗憲委員那時候在質詢的時候,他也明白的指出哪一些大法官的這個見解,這個趙偉不同意,我覺得這樣很好啊。但如果你對大法官講的內容,跟他講的東西你如果不同意,那你就是在行使你的同意權的時候不同意不就好了嗎?"},{"start":6728.698,"end":6737.912,"text":"這完全是不搭嘎的事情嘛你不認同這一個大法官你認為他的學術素養不夠你認為他做不出這樣的一個決定那你就不同意他不就好了"},{"start":6738.755,"end":6760.689,"text":"你不同意他跟你現在要把制度直接修改成高門檻直接修改成三分之二直接癱瘓現在憲法法庭的運作這不是兩件完全不同的事情嗎?就會回到剛剛一模一樣講的嘛我們在一直在設想一些根本就不存在的極端狀況更不要講說即使極端狀況出現他也是被允許的啊他本來就可以那樣做決定"},{"start":6761.289,"end":6776.757,"text":"結果你用極端狀況來當作一個理由然後把整套的制度都修掉最後造成傷害的是人民去申請的這個權利最後造成傷害的是當時黃國昌在2015年講的那麼清楚的一句話他說如果再用這樣的一個高門檻最後呢"},{"start":6778.038,"end":6807.421,"text":"我們都沒有辦法把真正的惡法把它消除這他那時候他講的話同意的這一個章也是他那時候蓋下去的所以我必須要講就是說我們很不喜歡這種用過水式的方式如果說一點一點來闡明我們講得非常的明白今天光是他的修法的理由跟動機他的理由就是不充分嘛那如果理由不充分是不是要針對這一點再多做說明而不是用剛剛那種因為用這種又是會回到質詢的方式你覺得德國怎樣"},{"start":6808.121,"end":6825.09,"text":"問題是我們現在就不是德國啊然後更不要講說條文之間跟十二條的矛盾該怎麼辦新舊法的矛盾該怎麼辦這個都沒有處理啊然後本來高門檻低門檻的差距因為這樣被消滅了這也沒有處理啊這不就跟那時候國會濫權法案一樣條文一堆矛盾然後就這樣出出去了"},{"start":6825.59,"end":6826.77,"text":"我們還是要尊重每個委員的想法"},{"start":6852.486,"end":6852.766,"text":"委員翁曉玲"},{"start":6873.51,"end":6873.911,"text":"阿這個跟綠營誠意有什麼關係?"},{"start":6885.663,"end":6906.533,"text":"不是啦,剛剛說北綠跟全綠嘛,那我就就這個說明,這跟協商無關齁,因為你剛好提到全綠跟北綠,那我是說因為有很多人在反映,那個會員有在反映,好那這部分我覺得是這樣啦齁,今天的協商其實是不成立啦,那各黨團的意見不一啦,沒有我跟你講齁,對啦"},{"start":6909.437,"end":6910.097,"text":"法定人數不足"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:30:16+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:30:29.957929+08:00","text":"謝謝，謝謝各位黨團幹部都到了，非常感謝大家，柯總召、傅總召、黃總召，謝謝各位黨團\n幹部。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:30:29.957929+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:30:43.915859+08:00","text":"特別跟大家報告一下，前天的協商，我們確定 113 年度中央政府總預算追加預算案的報告\n與詢答於 11 月 19 日星期二院會進行，所以當天也就是第 9 次院會，我們就循例不處理臨時提案\n，沒有異議的話，我們就先通過這個，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:30:43.915859+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:30:57.873788+08:00","text":"好，非常感謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:30:57.873788+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:31:11.831718+08:00","text":"上次協商有一個癥結點，就是比例的問題，現在請議事人員把所有精算之後的比例發到各位\n黨團幹部手上，請大家仔細來了解一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-11-14T14:31:11.831718+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:31:25.789647+08:00","text":"報告院長……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:31:25.789647+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:31:39.747577+08:00","text":"請議事處高處長跟大家簡單報告一下，我們自己精確估算的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-11-14T14:31:39.747577+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:31:53.705506+08:00","text":"跟各位黨鞭報告，現在大家手上有一個黨團協商參考的第 11 屆各黨團比例，我們是\n按照立法院組織法第三十三條規定，第 11 屆委員在組成的時候是依照選舉結果，由各選出的委\n員依其政黨去參加立法院的黨團，目前國民黨是 52，另外加高金，還有陳超明委員，加起來黨\n團是 54 個，民進黨是 51 個，台灣民眾黨是 8 個，因為總席次是 113，所以除出來的商數，8 個\n是占 113 的 0.07，51 個是占 0.45，然後 54 個是占 0.477，如果我們每次在黨團協商的時候針對\n院會的一些處理事項，包含要組成什麼樣的組織，或者是說要進行什麼樣發言的人數，它有時\n候會有 6 個、7 個、8 個、9 個、10 個、11 個等等，我們這邊是用 Excel 去把它算出來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-11-14T14:31:53.705506+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:32:07.663436+08:00","text":"比方說\n6 個，你會發現是 2.87、2.71、0.42，如果是 0 的話，當然就要先進位，優先先進位就是變成 1\n，那 2.87 跟 2.71，87 比 71 大，所以 87 就優先進位，6 個的話，就變成 3、2、1；7 個的話原則\n上是 3、3、1，合起來就是 7 個，你看如果是 39 個這麼多的話，它算出來就會是 19、17、3。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-11-14T14:32:07.663436+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:32:21.621365+08:00","text":"因為這是協商草稿的比例，我們會寫上去，但是黨團協商的時候，各黨團就如同之前總召也有\n講過的，他們可以個別禮讓，個別禮讓的方式比方另外再去口頭禮讓，或者是想要用書面方式\n去禮讓，這個都可以，只是議事處在草擬的時候就是依照這個比例先寫，然後讓各黨團參考，\n協 2\n以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:32:21.621365+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:32:35.579295+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部，現在議事處所擬的各比例的數字，請問各黨團幹部有沒有寶貴的意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:32:35.579295+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:32:49.537224+08:00","text":"這個\n如果是奇數跟偶數，是有一點點差別的，請大家……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T14:32:49.537224+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:33:03.495154+08:00","text":"原則上同意。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:33:03.495154+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:33:17.453083+08:00","text":"如果同意的話，我們可以原則上照這樣子，哪一位要發表一下寶貴意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:33:17.453083+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:33:31.411013+08:00","text":"好，吳思瑤幹事長\n，請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T14:33:31.411013+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:33:45.368942+08:00","text":"謝謝議事處的整理，如果接續我們前天的協商，針對不管是考試院或是大法官在審查\n推派 15 人發言的話，就會落在政黨比例是 7、7、1。對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T14:33:45.368942+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:33:59.326872+08:00","text":"那也就是民進黨的主張嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T14:33:59.326872+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:34:13.284801+08:00","text":"所以我們是要驗證在科學數字的試算，是沒有算錯的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:34:13.284801+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:34:27.242731+08:00","text":"黃總召，上次您提的，請發表寶貴意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T14:34:27.242731+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:34:41.200660+08:00","text":"簡單來講，各個政黨按照黨團人數的比例建立一個清楚的規則，我們就按照這個規則\n下面來走，因為總席次會直接影響到各個政黨實際上面可以代表的比例，所以我們在處理這件\n事情的時候，可能以後要從頭開始決定到底是幾個人，這是第一個先決的問題，這個先決的問\n題決定了以後，再來處理第二個順位的問題，所以從這樣的角度來講，只要是按照規則去做，\n基本上我們都不會有太大意見，把規則弄清楚就可以了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T14:34:41.200660+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:34:55.158590+08:00","text":"只是老實講，在不同席次部分，按照\n不同席次，如果是四捨五入，有的時候小數點 0.5 以上的會稍微占一點點便宜，而 0.5 以下的會\n稍微吃一點點虧，這個我想數學算出來都很清楚，只是你們現在印出來的計算方式，就台灣民\n眾黨黨團來講，容許我再重申一次，我們要求的就是一個清楚的規則，在這個規則下面運作就\n好了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:34:55.158590+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:35:09.116519+08:00","text":"好，謝謝台灣民眾黨黨團黃國昌總召的發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:35:09.116519+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:35:23.074449+08:00","text":"接下來請國民黨黨團傅總召發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T14:35:23.074449+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:35:37.032378+08:00","text":"要特別謝謝議事處把今天各政黨的席次比例，以及要代表政黨發言的總數席次算出來\n，讓大家按照比例分配，這個我們都清楚的看到，禮拜二總預算追加預算的院會質詢如果是 14\n席的話，是 7 比 6 比 1，這個很清楚，因為沒有人規定一定要 15 席，所以剛剛說一定是 7 比 7\n比 1，我想這是錯誤的數字，在這裡合先敘明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T14:35:37.032378+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:35:50.990308+08:00","text":"接下來，如果未來大家要依照這個政黨比例來做，各政黨不管是質詢也好，還是派席次也好\n，我想這個表是可以用的，但是以後、未來是多少人要上場，可能大家要再討論一下，因為這\n會影響到各政黨所能推派的席次有所不同，所以黃國昌總召在前一次朝野協商時所提出來的論\n點，看起來今天議事處也印證了這個事情，到底下週二的院會對總預算推派質詢的人數，到底\n是 7、7、1 還是 7、6、1？","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T14:35:50.990308+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:36:04.948237+08:00","text":"既然上個禮拜四已經做了決定，那我們就尊重當天的決定，當天的決\n定是 7、7、1，所以我們就尊重，因為大家已經同意了，但是下一次的話，我們還是要看時間上\n的方便，先確定總數，再決定各政黨推派的席次，好不好？謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:36:04.948237+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:36:18.906167+08:00","text":"好，傅崐萁總召不愧是金頭腦，一算就清清楚楚，先把總數確定，再來分配。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:36:18.906167+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:36:32.864096+08:00","text":"好，請吳思瑤幹事長二次發言。協 3","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T14:36:32.864096+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:36:46.822026+08:00","text":"報告院長，我沒有金頭腦，我也是銀頭腦，至少有銀的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T14:36:46.822026+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:37:00.779955+08:00","text":"照步來啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T14:37:00.779955+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:37:14.737885+08:00","text":"我覺得釐清這些政黨比例是非常有必要的，因為大家把遊戲規則講清楚，我分兩個層\n次再來補充說明，有利於大家未來更確定的把這個制度釐清。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T14:37:14.737885+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:37:28.695814+08:00","text":"第一個，依照過去還有我短淺的\n國會經驗，歷次的專案報告大概都是推派 15 人，就以我們這一屆來看，11 之 1 會期的食安專報\n就是 15 人；11 之 2，就是前陣子進行的電價專報，其實一開始議事處預擬的也是 15 人，也就是\n7、7、1，但當時有在野黨黨鞭認為希望多一點時間，想把 15 分鐘調整成 20 分鐘，那時候我的\n發言是希望還是回到議事規則裡規定的，每一個發言 unit 是 15 分鐘，如果想要增加的話，那一\n次是一個特別的特例，變成 9、9、2，但我想我們還是要調回正軌，所以 15 人是一個歷次專報\n基礎的發言安排人數，然後依著 15 的分配，就是如同剛剛議事處所提出的 7、7、1。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T14:37:28.695814+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:37:42.653744+08:00","text":"那我也要\n提出另外一個計算方式的佐證，來證明 7、7、1 應當是不可撼動。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T14:37:42.653744+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:37:56.611673+08:00","text":"如果是以 113 位立法委員的員\n額席次來分派政黨比例，也就是 54 比 51 比 8 的話，試算出來國民黨是 7.17，民進黨是 6.77，\n民眾黨是 1.06，所以進位之後也是 7、7、1。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T14:37:56.611673+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:38:10.569603+08:00","text":"那天柯總召有提示過，如果是以政團來講，我剛剛\n講的是政團，對不起，我剛剛說的是政團，113 的話是用政團來算，包含兩位無黨籍的委員，才\n會變成國民黨是 52 加 2，也就是 54 比 51 比 8。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T14:38:10.569603+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:38:24.527532+08:00","text":"如果是以政黨來算，就是回歸法制說的政黨比\n例來算的話，那麼就是 111 席，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T14:38:24.527532+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:38:38.485462+08:00","text":"因為兩位無黨籍委員沒有組成政黨，如果他單獨的話，\n就會變成是 52 比 51 比 8，這樣試算出來是國民黨 7.02，民進黨 6.89，民眾黨 1.08，所以它的進\n位也是 7、7、1。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T14:38:38.485462+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:38:52.443391+08:00","text":"我們希望藉由這個正規的機會，把這樣子的數字精算、科學的依據，包括法定\n的規範，還有過去的慣例都是專報 15 人，所以我們再次確立 7、7、1 是一個非常合理、合適的\n安排，謝謝院長主持。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:38:52.443391+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:39:06.401321+08:00","text":"謝謝銀頭腦，現在請台灣民眾黨黃國昌總召發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T14:39:06.401321+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:39:20.359250+08:00","text":"我覺得大家回到數學來計算是一個好事，這樣就會比較清楚一點，剛剛院長也講得很\n清楚，從來沒有規定在計算的時候一定是 15，14 的結果跟 15 的結果就不一樣嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T14:39:20.359250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:39:34.317179+08:00","text":"如果我們今\n天真的要按照 54 比 51 比 8 來算的話，數學算起來就是 6.75 比 6.375 比 1。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T14:39:34.317179+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:39:48.275109+08:00","text":"我再說一次，就是\n54 比 51 比 8 同時除以 8 嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T14:39:48.275109+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:40:02.233038+08:00","text":"我先跟柯總召報告一下，54 除以 8 等於 6.75，51 除以 8 等於 6.375\n，8 除以 8 就是 1，那你就要看你的比到底是怎麼比，在不同的總額數目之下，會有不一樣的計\n算結果，那你如果是以最小的黨團──台灣民眾黨黨團 8 個人嘛，我們不要占人家便宜，8 個人\n就直接算 1 啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T14:40:02.233038+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:40:16.190968+08:00","text":"54 比 51 比 8，你算出來的結果大概就是這個樣子。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:40:16.190968+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:40:30.148897+08:00","text":"稍微等一下，剛才我看到國民黨團這邊誰舉手了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:40:30.148897+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:40:44.106827+08:00","text":"傅總召請二次發言，洪申翰委員請等一下\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T14:40:44.106827+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:40:58.064756+08:00","text":"我要特別強調，大家都在立法院，彼此都很熟悉，拜託一下柯總召，本黨有多少人？","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T14:40:58.064756+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:41:12.022686+08:00","text":"你常常給本黨團穿小鞋、故意算錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T14:41:12.022686+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:41:25.980615+08:00","text":"本席再告訴你一次，陳超明先生是國民黨籍，本黨團有 53\n位國民黨籍，1 位高金素梅委員是無黨籍，如果要拆開來用政團來看的話，立法院沒有在政團裡\n面的委員，勢必要優先給他們質詢，所以遊戲規則要講清楚，所以永遠要這樣算，高金素梅委\n員任何的質詢都要排在第一個。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T14:41:25.980615+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:41:39.938545+08:00","text":"協 4\n第二，如果你堅持，我也假裝搞不清楚，陳超明委員如果是無黨籍的話，就有兩位委員是要\n先排在政黨之前做院會的質詢，但是我們還是要講清楚，高金素梅委員在本黨團，再過來，陳\n超明委員是國民黨籍，所以國民黨籍有 53 位，再加 1 位無黨籍在國民黨團參與運作，我們有 54\n位，貴黨 51 位，剛剛以 8 做基數並沒有錯誤。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T14:41:39.938545+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:41:53.896474+08:00","text":"如果它是 1 的話，永遠在任何質詢它是 1 的話，\n大家就除下來，6.75、6.375 比 1，我們從小到大學的就是四捨五入。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T14:41:53.896474+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:42:07.854404+08:00","text":"今天議事處給大家一個完\n整的席次跟比例數字出來以後，我們就建議院長、主席，未來可能我們在院會的質詢所推派的\n代表席次上，應該是要先確認是多少席來推派質詢，之後再決定各政黨分配的席次，我想這樣\n會比較完整。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T14:42:07.854404+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:42:21.812333+08:00","text":"每一次都講我們黨團 52 個，其實是不對的，本黨有 53 位，也因為高金委員是加\n入本黨團來運作，所以本黨才有 54 位，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:42:21.812333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:42:35.770263+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，貴黨真棒！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:42:35.770263+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:42:49.728192+08:00","text":"我們請數學系的洪委員，你先來講解一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T14:42:49.728192+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:43:03.686122+08:00","text":"院長，不好意思，我會議詢問一下，因為今天是我們黨團分配的議題，並不是法案議\n題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T14:43:03.686122+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:43:17.644051+08:00","text":"我不曉得是不是三長以外的委員……當然我們歡迎，三長委員以外的都可以發言嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T14:43:17.644051+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:43:31.601981+08:00","text":"我想應該我們有一個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:43:31.601981+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:43:45.559910+08:00","text":"我完全知道王鴻薇首席副書記長的意思，因為黨團之間的幹部先開，所以洪委員真的很……\n因為我們現在不是法案的審查，我們先確定一下黨團協商……\n請柯總召。","quality":0.062},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:43:45.559910+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:43:59.517840+08:00","text":"對不起啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:43:59.517840+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:44:13.475769+08:00","text":"洪委員，對不起，對不起。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T14:44:13.475769+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:44:27.433699+08:00","text":"對不起。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T14:44:27.433699+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:44:41.391628+08:00","text":"我想剛才議事處也算出來了，立法院從以前到現在、包括這個會期都是 15\n個，這個沒有什麼好爭辯的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T14:44:41.391628+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:44:55.349558+08:00","text":"你來設置一個 14 個人的時候，就占便宜，其實也不是如此。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T14:44:55.349558+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:45:09.307487+08:00","text":"這個\n問題大家已經討論兩輪了，我覺得就這樣定了，不必再說以後我們來設計一個 14 個或是或多少\n人的、對哪一黨有利，過去就沒有這樣處理，過去長期以來就是 15 個，這個問題應該到這裡打\n住了，這不是很重大的重點，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:45:09.307487+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:45:23.265417+08:00","text":"請台灣民眾黨黃國昌總召第 3 次發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T14:45:23.265417+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:45:37.223346+08:00","text":"柯建銘總召剛剛表達了民主進步黨的立場，我尊重民進黨表達意見的權利跟機會，只\n是 15 個人到底是定在哪裡，我不是很清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T14:45:37.223346+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:45:51.181276+08:00","text":"15 個人到底定在哪裡，我不是很清楚，是定在立法\n院職權行使法，還是我們的議事規則當中？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T14:45:51.181276+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:46:05.139205+08:00","text":"到底要有多少人這件事情，本來就是各個黨團、所\n有的立法委員共同決定的事項，黨團作為代表可以形成共識就形成共識，如果不能形成共識的\n話，我們就還是按照民主規則來踐行，這個是第一點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T14:46:05.139205+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:46:19.097135+08:00","text":"我尊重柯總召所講的，他希望是用 15 個\n人來當作計算基準，他有表達這樣子意見的權利，但是我們沒有辦法接受以後就是用 15 個，當\n成是一個剛性的規則，這個是前面的前提，我可能必須要比較清楚地表達這樣子的立場。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T14:46:19.097135+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:46:33.055064+08:00","text":"第二個層次的問題是，在立法院針對行政機關我們的質詢、我們的監督，台灣民眾黨黨團的\n立場是把時間做最有效率的使用。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T14:46:33.055064+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:46:47.012994+08:00","text":"所謂把時間做最有效率的使用，我們一天幾點開會，預計要\n處理什麼事情，到下班的時間算一算總共有多少時間，在這個時間的範圍內就盡可能地看怎麼\n樣使用會最有效率。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T14:46:47.012994+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:47:00.970923+08:00","text":"這件事情的處理與這件事情的決定，恐怕也不是任何單一的黨團……當然\n協 5\n每個黨團可以提出自己的主張，其他的黨團也都要尊重其他個別黨團提出這個主張的權利，但\n最後要決定的時候，恐怕也還是要大家來一起決定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T14:47:00.970923+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:47:14.928853+08:00","text":"上一次在院長調和鼎鼐之下決定 7、7、1，\n我簽字的時候也很清楚地跟院長表達，因為上次協商的時候院長也說了話，大家都保持和諧，\n所以我就簽了字，但不代表以後這個就絕對會成為一個剛性的慣例，我想基本立場的表達還是\n要說明清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T14:47:14.928853+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:47:28.886782+08:00","text":"我就從剛才黃總召最後一句話，「和諧」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T14:47:28.886782+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:47:42.844712+08:00","text":"我為什麼要講這個事情，其實從過去有時\n代力量，黃總召也曾經在時代力量，有民眾黨，你問邱臣遠都很清楚，15 個是長期以及我進到\n立法院以來就是這樣，這是已經形成的憲政慣例，沒有寫在任何文字上，這已經形成憲政慣例\n，我們就予以尊重。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T14:47:42.844712+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:47:56.802641+08:00","text":"不要笑！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T14:47:56.802641+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:48:10.760571+08:00","text":"大法官常常用這個名詞，三十年來，我在這裡都看到這樣的事情\n，過去也是這樣子進行，之前我常常說邱臣遠不要吵，我就讓給你 1 個，因為質詢多少人並不\n是一個輸贏的決定，坦白講，很會講的、比較會講的 2 個就很厲害了，也不必這樣，所以我覺\n得這個事情到這裡應該可以結束。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T14:48:10.760571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:48:24.718500+08:00","text":"因為我們在這裡設計哪一個對國民黨最有利，每一個會期變\n來變去，我想也不是韓院長所樂見的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T14:48:24.718500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:48:38.676429+08:00","text":"從以前到現在就是如此，這個也不是說很重要，甚至在\n委員會上也是這樣處理，說實在，我相信大家應該也清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T14:48:38.676429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:48:52.634359+08:00","text":"剛才黃總召最後一句話是和諧，我\n們這個題目應該到此為止，三十年來已經形成憲政慣例，我想我們往下走比較重要。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T14:48:52.634359+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:49:06.592288+08:00","text":"我們用了好多的時間在討論發言的政黨比例，事實上，秘書處已經有算出了一個最精\n準的數字，大家就用這樣的數字作為未來討論的基準，這樣就很公道，而且不會在朝野協商還\n沒有進入正題，討論這個小數點討論到感情已經撕一半了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T14:49:06.592288+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:49:20.550218+08:00","text":"如果像剛剛黃國昌總召所說的民眾\n黨要算 1，可是民眾黨為什麼要算 1 這件事情，事實上從秘書處的數字來說，就不是這個樣子，\n他們在比例上不同人數然後再換算回去，這個就是所謂統計學的算法，不會有民眾黨算 1 然後\n再去除以幾，因為人是沒辦法被區分為半個人或 0.6 個人，所以還是要回到統計的數字才是有意\n義的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T14:49:20.550218+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:49:34.508147+08:00","text":"如果我們過去在質詢安排上是 15 人，有 7、7、1 的比例，大家也都同意這樣，我們應該就要\n進行下去，吳思瑤委員在上一次是說 9、9、2，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T14:49:34.508147+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:49:48.466077+08:00","text":"如果 9、9、2 那一次是 20 人的話，那\n應該是 10、9、1，所以那一次國民黨也算是禮讓 1 個人給民眾黨，不然也不會變成 9、9、2 的\n數字。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T14:49:48.466077+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:50:02.424006+08:00","text":"我想這個表很好，我們未來討論就用這個表做基準，先決定人數，然後再決定比例，大\n家都沒話講了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:50:02.424006+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:50:16.381936+08:00","text":"謝謝蔡易餘書記長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:50:16.381936+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:50:30.339865+08:00","text":"林思銘書記長，請發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-14T14:50:30.339865+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:50:44.297795+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-14T14:50:44.297795+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:50:58.255724+08:00","text":"我想大家就這個問題，不要再喋喋不休地吵下去。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-14T14:50:58.255724+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:51:12.213654+08:00","text":"院長，我們非常感謝今\n天議事處整理出這個科學數字，所以依照這個科學數字，我們知道整個政黨比例在立法院未來\n要分配席次，都可以依照這一張來做很明確地規範，但我要特別澄清一下，15 位的人數、本次\n質詢的人數，這是憲政慣例嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-14T14:51:12.213654+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:51:26.171583+08:00","text":"我聽到這個，我嚇一跳，立法院是自己有自治的，立法院自己\n自我規定到底要幾個人來做質詢的人數，所以我想這不是一個憲政慣例，這叫立法院的議事慣\n協 6\n例，這個要澄清一下，這是我們的議事慣例。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-14T14:51:26.171583+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:51:40.129513+08:00","text":"依照慣例，我覺得我們 OK，我們可以接受，未來\n就依照這張科學的數據來排定我們的人數。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-14T14:51:40.129513+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:51:54.087442+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T14:51:54.087442+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:52:08.045372+08:00","text":"剛剛蔡易餘委員所講的話，我很贊成，以後就先決定人數，就按照那個人數來分配比\n例，這是最清楚的規則，也不存在一定是從 15 來開始計算的問題，因為我們第一句話就是先決\n定人數，再從這個人數來決定比例，我想這個規則把它立下來就好了。","quality":0.02},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T14:52:08.045372+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:52:22.003301+08:00","text":"至於未來的人數，大家\n有不一樣的看法都可以表達，也沒有說以誰講的人數是絕對的人數，我想這個原則把它建立起\n來就好了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:52:22.003301+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:52:35.961231+08:00","text":"今天會議進行到現在，其實都很和諧，也很順利，大家也都就科學數字來表達自己的意見，\n也非常地好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:52:35.961231+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:52:49.919160+08:00","text":"容許我先把前天對於 113 年度政府總預算追加預算，確定 7、7、1 的這件事情，我\n們先定案，後續的之後我們再來說，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:52:49.919160+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:53:03.877090+08:00","text":"我們非常感謝各位黨團幹部。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:53:03.877090+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:53:17.835019+08:00","text":"接下來我們就要處理大法官人事同意權的時程問題，我們請議事處完全按照各位黨團幹部上\n次所交代的，草擬了 A、B 兩個版本，A 院會時間、B 委員會時間，各位先參考 A、B 兩個版本\n，大家討論完畢以後，看能不能接受，如果能夠達成共識，那最好；如果不能達成共識，我們\n再來草擬，看有沒有 C 的版本，請大家參考一下，休息 3 分鐘之後，我們就開始討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:53:17.835019+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:53:31.792949+08:00","text":"請大家\n消化一下，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:53:31.792949+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:53:45.750878+08:00","text":"我們休息 5 分鐘，大家消化一下手上的資料，這個完全根據各位上次所要\n求的，我們先休息 5 分鐘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:53:45.750878+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:53:59.708808+08:00","text":"休息（14 時 31 分）\n繼續開會（14 時 44 分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:53:59.708808+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:54:13.666737+08:00","text":"再次感謝各位黨團幹部，非常感謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:54:13.666737+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:54:27.624667+08:00","text":"在休息前，請大家用一點時間來消化一下，請各位黨團\n幹部就議事處所草擬的 A、B 兩個版本，大家對於司法院大法官人事同意權的時程安排有沒有寶\n貴意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:54:27.624667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:54:41.582596+08:00","text":"好，請柯總召。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T14:54:41.582596+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:54:55.540526+08:00","text":"就是用院會時間，我覺得還是用院會時間，否則用委員會時間會占用總預算的審查，\n這個時間都可以安排的，立法院現在所提出來的 A 版，我們是可以接受的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:54:55.540526+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:55:09.498455+08:00","text":"謝謝，柯總召現在提出來民進黨團對於 A 版完全接受。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:55:09.498455+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:55:23.456385+08:00","text":"請問國民黨黨團、台灣民眾黨黨團\n能不能接受 A 版？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:55:23.456385+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:55:37.414314+08:00","text":"請黃國昌總召發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T14:55:37.414314+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:55:51.372244+08:00","text":"跟院長還有其他各位黨團代表說明，我們認為就司法院人事同意權的部分，召開全院\n委員會審查的時候，儘量不要占掉院會寶貴的時間，那個是院會寶貴的時間，院會有院會接下\n來的安排，因為 11 月的時候，感覺起來因為有很多法案都還在協商冷凍期嘛！","quality":0.019},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T14:55:51.372244+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:56:05.330173+08:00","text":"11 月的時候就把\n它拿來處理考試委員，我們上一次在院長的說明之下，就考試委員的部分，我們是同意了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T14:56:05.330173+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:56:19.288103+08:00","text":"但\n是邁入 12 月以後，12 月以後如果司法院人事同意權占掉那麼多院會的時間，變成實際上面院會\n可以處理其他法案的時間只剩 2 天，嚴重地壓縮到，所以台灣民眾黨黨團認為是以 B 版會是比\n較適合的時間。","quality":0.012},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:56:19.288103+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:56:33.246032+08:00","text":"好，謝謝黃國昌總召。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:56:33.246032+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:56:47.203962+08:00","text":"我現在跟各位黨團幹部報告一下，如果用 A 版的話，院會剩下 2 次\n的時間，如果用 B 版的話，院會大概是有 5 次左右的時間，這是約估。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:56:47.203962+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:57:01.161891+08:00","text":"柯總召請再發言，國民\n協 7\n黨團請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T14:57:01.161891+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:57:15.119821+08:00","text":"大家打開天窗說亮話，上一次已經確定是用院會時間，這次用院會時間，照黃國昌委\n員所談的只剩下 2 次院會時間，還有上午也可以，我們也不會愚蠢到把時間都占滿了以後，大\n家比較有衝突性的法案會不見、不會處理，不可能是這樣的，不外乎就選罷法、憲法訴訟，還\n有財劃法嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T14:57:15.119821+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:57:29.077750+08:00","text":"這個 1 天都夠了，其實有 2 天，至於其他法案就是沒有爭議性，大概就唸過去很\n快，過去都是這樣，所以這個時間你不要擔心我們在設什麼局，該面對的我們還是要面對啦！","quality":0.015},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T14:57:29.077750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:57:43.035679+08:00","text":"坦白講，不可能憲法訴訟你們不處理嘛，今天也在委員會協商了嘛！","quality":0.074},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T14:57:43.035679+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:57:56.993609+08:00","text":"財劃法乃至於選罷法都是\n大家要面對的，這個我們都很清楚，也不會是逃避，也不是把時間用掉，讓大家沒有辦法處理\n，這一點我可以很坦白講，所以上次我講過了，留 1 天就夠了，1 天、2 天就可以處理掉了，我\n想還是比較建議，既然前面都用院會，那最好也是院會，因為委員會一直排下去，坦白講我們\n還有很多事情要處理，總預算還有特別預算等等，還有今年的國營事業預算等等都要處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T14:57:56.993609+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:58:10.951538+08:00","text":"我\n們把法定的事情有秩序安排，該面對大家就面對，輸贏不論啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T14:58:10.951538+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:58:24.909468+08:00","text":"本來就是這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:58:24.909468+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:58:38.867397+08:00","text":"好，謝謝柯總召發言，大家可以知道他是個光明磊落的男子漢，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:58:38.867397+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:58:52.825327+08:00","text":"國民黨團請發言，\n黃國昌總召請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-14T14:58:52.825327+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:59:06.783256+08:00","text":"好，謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-14T14:59:06.783256+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:59:20.741186+08:00","text":"院長，我想我們上一次絕對沒有像柯總召講的說統一都是用院會，其\n實我想今天如果大家要和諧的話，我想考試院，我們就充分尊重民進黨的意見，我們就是由院\n會來處理；司法院的人事審查，我想我們尊重民眾黨的意見，國民黨對司法院的，我想我們尊\n重司法院的意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-14T14:59:20.741186+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:59:34.699115+08:00","text":"我再講一下，其實我們看這一次如果依照 B 版的排案時程，我們在 11 月的第\n三個禮拜就開始來處理司法院的人事審查，在第三個禮拜的院會，26 號做推薦各專家學者的審\n查小組名單，27 號以前提出書面問題；在 12 月進入第一週，我們就辦公聽會，這個也是跟 A 版\n一樣；我們在第二週可以來進行整個司法院的人事審查，用第二週來做全面的審查；然後到了\n第三週，我們就表決，我覺得這樣時程的安排也不會壓縮院會的時間，因為院會真的有很多報\n告事項還有討論事項要處理，所以我們利用一週，12 月的第二個禮拜，來處理你們很關心的司\n法院的人事審查，我覺得很妥適啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-14T14:59:34.699115+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T14:59:48.657045+08:00","text":"我也希望民進黨能夠尊重我們在野黨的意見，以上，謝謝\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T14:59:48.657045+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:00:02.614974+08:00","text":"謝謝林思銘書記長的發言，他的重點是國民黨團是孫悟空、金箍棒，可長可短，可以配合考\n試院、配合司法院，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:00:02.614974+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:00:16.572904+08:00","text":"接下來黃國昌總召發言，請吳思瑤幹事長準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:00:16.572904+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:00:30.530833+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨黨團第二次發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:00:30.530833+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:00:44.488763+08:00","text":"針對剛剛柯建銘總召所指教的事情，我們向來都是打開\n天窗說亮話，沒有要迴避什麼事情，也沒有要逃避什麼事情，我們也不會用什麼自信去度什麼\n自負。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:00:44.488763+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:00:58.446692+08:00","text":"打開天窗說亮話，就打開天窗說亮話，第一個，上次在協商的時候，我覺得必須要澄清\n一件事情，絕對沒有剛剛柯總召所說的，用院會的時間來處理達成共識，這個事情我覺得前提\n要先確認，要不然的話，我們上次不會只處理有關於考試院跟考試委員的部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:00:58.446692+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:01:12.404622+08:00","text":"也在上一次協\n商的時候，其實我就已經主張過希望全院委員會不要去占用到院會的時間，因為接下來要處理\n的法案可能除了剛剛柯總召所講的那些事情以外，還有另外一個吹哨者保護法，那個也是到 12\n月的時候，我們排都會按照協商冷凍期過了到院會、們該處理就要處理的事，所以在這樣的情\n協 8\n況之下，有關司法院人事同意權的部分，我們還是會認為不要占院會那麼多的時間，希望把院\n會空下來，其他該處理的法案我們就還是都要處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:01:12.404622+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:01:26.362551+08:00","text":"謝謝黃國昌總召發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:01:26.362551+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:01:40.320481+08:00","text":"吳思瑤幹事長請發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:01:40.320481+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:01:54.278410+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:01:54.278410+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:02:08.236340+08:00","text":"我想民進黨團主張用院會的時間來處理，原因很簡單，因為我們的總預算\n現在各個委員會都加緊在審議當中，我們之前因為在協商過程當中，其實就已經有 71 天沒有用\n，所以我們現在趕快，也謝謝各委員會確實都已經在排案了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:02:08.236340+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:02:22.194269+08:00","text":"那這個會期也不是只有一個總預\n算，這個會期是四大預算案要審查，包括前瞻，包括台電追加減，還有國營事業預算，所以預\n算案的量非常大。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:02:22.194269+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:02:36.152199+08:00","text":"另外，人事同意權也還有……可能明天 NCC 組織法處理完之後，NCC 的人事\n同意權還是要回到委員會處理，還有公平會的人事同意權要回到委員會處理，委員會除了要因\n應四大預算案外，還有另外兩個人事案，所以委員會的時間真的很緊繃。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:02:36.152199+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:02:50.110128+08:00","text":"那回過頭來看，如果用院會的時間來審議大法官人事同意權，讓院會都沒有時間處理法案了\n嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:02:50.110128+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:03:04.068058+08:00","text":"不，請大家可以看一下剛剛做的這個表，A 版裡頭我們還有預留了 12 月 24 日跟 12 月 27 日\n，兩個 full day 的院會 plus 三個 half day，三個半天的院會，就是 12 月 13 日，12 月 20 日跟 12\n月 31 日，所以有兩個 full day 跟三個 half day 都可以處理法案。","quality":0.029},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:03:04.068058+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:03:18.025987+08:00","text":"以現在法案的量，因為這個會期\n是預算會期，真的沒有大家想像要清倉那麼多的法案，我們都可以預估得出來，所以我們也確\n實盤點了幾個到期（協商期、冷凍期）可以參與表決的選罷法，然後憲法訴訟法、財劃法，還\n有黃總召力推的揭弊者保護法，我們都預留了時間，也可以處理到。","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:03:18.025987+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:03:31.983917+08:00","text":"兩個 full day 跟三個 half\nday 絕對可以，如果還不夠，可以再加開院會嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:03:31.983917+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:03:45.941846+08:00","text":"調整一天的委員會時間來加開院會，也是可以\n的。","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:03:45.941846+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:03:59.899776+08:00","text":"但是回過頭來講，正因為我們的預算現在排審已經非常緊了，因為我們之前付委時間拖得\n比較久，這不好意思，我們現在必須面對要趕進度，還有人事權也要在委員會行使，然後預算\n案、前瞻、追加減，我相信大家都想要嚴格跟非常嚴謹的審議。","quality":0.041},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:03:59.899776+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:04:13.857705+08:00","text":"這個沒有什麼政治的盤算，沒\n有什麼、什麼的，就只是單純希望讓審預算的時間不要再受到影響，四個預算案，還有兩個委\n員會要審的人事同意權，你們擔心院會不夠處理法案的時間並不會發生，所以再次希望……我\n覺得這個應該很 OK 啦！","quality":0.021},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:04:13.857705+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:04:27.815635+08:00","text":"這個院長也可以裁示一下，我希望透過我們的說明讓大家可以知道，謝\n謝。","quality":0.067},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:04:27.815635+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:04:41.773564+08:00","text":"國民黨團要不要補充發言？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:04:41.773564+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:04:55.731494+08:00","text":"王鴻薇首席副書記長請發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:04:55.731494+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:05:09.689423+08:00","text":"謝謝院長繼續在幫我們協調有關考試院跟司法院人事同意權的問題。","quality":0.138},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:05:09.689423+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:05:23.647353+08:00","text":"事實上，在上一\n次我們的協調會裡面，對於考試院的部分其實大家有達成共識，但是在司法院的部分，當時就\n是考慮到會不會太過占用院會的時間，所以今天再來安排及考量。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:05:23.647353+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:05:37.605282+08:00","text":"我也必須說，我們可以看到\n，從下個禮拜開始，如果按照 A 版的安排方式，包含星期二、星期五，有 15 次院會的時間，但\n因為 19 號也安排了追加預算的詢答，所以比較完整的院會已經被壓縮為只有 3 天。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:05:37.605282+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:05:51.563212+08:00","text":"審預算當然\n很重要，但是我們不能說院會不重要，如果按照 A 版，考試院人事幾乎都占用了院會的時間，\n司法院人事也幾乎都在占用院會的時間，雖然有的好像是用上午的時間，基本上我覺得院會也\n非常重要。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:05:51.563212+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:06:05.521141+08:00","text":"所以我們還是會認為，考試院人事的部分已經占用了這麼多院會時間，司法院人事\n協 9\n的部分是不是集中在如同 B 版所安排的，就召開全院委員會，12 月的第二週我們一氣呵成來完\n成審查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:06:05.521141+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:06:19.479071+08:00","text":"事實上，我覺得對於整個議事運作，也不用把整個人事審查拉到這麼「離離落落」，\n就是可以一氣呵成完成審查，我想不管對朝野兩黨來說，這樣重要的人事審查，大家一定會嚴\n格審查，而且這個時間大家應該也準備得差不多了，所以我們還是認為把院會的部分留下一些\n完整的院會才比較合理，因為我們不能說原來的院會都在打混，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:06:19.479071+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:06:33.437000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得在司法院\n人事的部分，還是留下一些完整的院會，讓我們能夠充分地來做論會比較好一點，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:06:33.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T15:06:35.501000+08:00","text":"謝謝王鴻薇首席副書記長。","quality":0.364},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:06:35.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:06:36.501000+08:00","text":"柯總召，請繼續發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:06:36.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:06:37.501000+08:00","text":"我記得上次我們在討論這個的時候，就是院會要處理考試委員同意權行使的時候也觸\n及到這個問題，也就是有些法案什麼的要處理，所以那時候我講過，就是留下空白的時間，院\n會來處理，現在議事處也留了兩天。","quality":0.023},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:06:37.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:06:38.501000+08:00","text":"我們今天要來談的就是增加一個吹哨者保護法，那吹哨者\n保護法審查報告都還沒出來，但是在 12 月這一週全部來得及處理，所以都不會有影響的，我們\n有兩個全天，還有三個半天。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:06:38.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:06:39.501000+08:00","text":"不行的話，韓院長，你說加開院會，我們絕對會同意的，好不好\n？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:06:39.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:06:40.501000+08:00","text":"這個應該這樣安排比較合理，協商一下，好不好？好的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:06:40.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:06:41.501000+08:00","text":"我綜合三個黨團的發言，容許我，我們根據各位的要求提出了 A、B 兩個版本，一邊\n堅持以院會為主，另外一邊堅持以委員會為主，事實上我們還調控了一個 C 版，就是也有部分\n是院會，也有部分是委員會，我們把 C 版唸給大家聽一下，因為總是多一個選擇。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:06:41.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:06:42.501000+08:00","text":"如果最後你\n們否決它，完全沒有問題，院本部、議事處完全接受，但如果兼顧到兩邊擔心的問題，你可以\n聽聽看這個 C 版。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:06:42.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:06:43.501000+08:00","text":"沒有，我知道你有備而來，但就發下來就好，不要用唸的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:06:43.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:06:44.501000+08:00","text":"好，C 版我們先發到每一個黨團幹部手上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:06:44.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:06:45.501000+08:00","text":"各位現在手上這個 C 版是完全兼顧大家所擔憂\n的地方，也都做了一些去蕪存菁，請議事處高處長唸給大家、分析給大家聽，之後如果能達成\n共識，我們立刻就確定，不能達成共識，我們會休息，讓大家私下來討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:06:45.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:06:46.501000+08:00","text":"現在請高處長來唸給大家聽。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-11-14T15:06:46.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:06:47.501000+08:00","text":"跟各位黨鞭說明，C 版的部分就是一個參考，我們綜整 A 版跟 B 版，我們只是對於\n全院委員會的開會時間在 12 月 10 號利用一天的院會時間，然後利用另外兩個非院會的時間去\n安排密集的審查司法院大法官，這個等一下大家還可以參考，看要怎麼去修改或是怎麼樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-11-14T15:06:47.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:06:48.501000+08:00","text":"最\n主要的不同就是，我們綜整部分是院會日、部分是非院會日，然後做一個 C 版，那投票日也是\n在我們這個會期結束之前──12 月 31 號前面的那一週，12 月 24 號就可以完成大法官的同意權\n投票，以上。院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:06:48.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:06:49.501000+08:00","text":"這個 C 版黃國昌委員絕對不會答應，為什麼呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:06:49.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:06:50.501000+08:00","text":"因為揭弊者保護法現在審查報告都\n還沒出去，所以你在 12 月 11 號、12 號根本來不及一個月，我覺得這個安排有一點欠缺，反而\n增加更大的麻煩，既然要趕快處理就很特別的處理，大家都來得及，這是一個問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:06:50.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:06:51.501000+08:00","text":"那一週是\n協 10\n……那個比較小事，本黨都召委啦，我是覺得 12 月 11 和 12 號連一個月都還沒到，怎麼處理揭\n弊者？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:06:51.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:06:52.501000+08:00","text":"所以現在院會這樣安排，12 月 24、25 號絕對來得及。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:06:52.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:06:53.501000+08:00","text":"所以柯總召您對 C 版是保留的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:06:53.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:06:54.501000+08:00","text":"協商一下，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:06:54.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:06:55.501000+08:00","text":"好，了解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:06:55.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:06:56.501000+08:00","text":"黃國昌總召，剛剛柯柯建銘總召非常關心你，你請發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:06:56.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:06:57.501000+08:00","text":"第一個，柯總召是我們立法院的老前輩，大家都很尊敬他，只不過尊敬歸尊敬，我覺\n得各個黨團表達自己的看法就好了，先去說其他的黨團一定會如何、如何，恐怕也僭越了發言\n的分際，自己的看法就講自己黨團的看法就好了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:06:57.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:06:58.501000+08:00","text":"原則上，台灣民眾黨黨團認為用委員會 B 版是比較好，但如果最後不得已要用 C 版來當作共\n識結論的話，那剛剛柯總召的預測恐怕有點錯誤、必須要更正，如果院長出面調和鼎鼐用 C 版\n的話，台灣民眾黨黨團可以勉予同意。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:06:58.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:06:59.501000+08:00","text":"因為我們總是協商嘛，院長都拿出 C 版了，那我們就大\n家各退一步，用院長拿出來的 C 版我們可以勉予同意；但是如果大家還是要固持己見的話，那\n我們還是認為用 B 版是比較好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:06:59.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:00.501000+08:00","text":"好的，現在台灣民眾黨表表達說，如果 C 版大家能達成共識，台灣民眾黨完全支持。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:00.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:01.501000+08:00","text":"國民黨團請發言，蔡易餘書記長請準備，對不起，吳思瑤，因為他先舉手，國民黨團請表達\n意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:01.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:02.501000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:02.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:03.501000+08:00","text":"院長，C 版把第二週其中一天的委員會跟院會對調，還是連續三天在審查\n，我想這樣的設計基本上我們也是同意，我們就尊重院長這樣的調和鼎鼐，我覺得這非常好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:03.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:04.501000+08:00","text":"國昌，你再詳細思考，如果是在 9、10、11 這三天，星期四關於揭弊者保護法你有沒有算到那天\n你來做黨團協商，這部分你自己看……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:04.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:05.501000+08:00","text":"沒有，稍微等一下，因為蔡易餘書記長剛才準備發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:05.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:06.501000+08:00","text":"尊重 C 版、尊重 C 版。好的！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:06.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:07.501000+08:00","text":"你表達你的立場就好，沒問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:07.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:08.501000+08:00","text":"我們現在請蔡易餘書記長發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:08.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:09.501000+08:00","text":"因為接下來距離會期結束的時間真的不多，有總預算、有追加預算、有前瞻預算，有\n這麼多法案要處理，如同我們在上一次協商的時候大家有講到，基本上，如果排委員會，大家\n會在委員會處理，如果排全院委員會的時候，基本上很多人都是輪到質詢的時候才要去，沒有質\n詢的話他可能在忙別的事；那天我們院長也說，希望多一點人到場聆聽，有這樣的一個前提。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:09.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:10.501000+08:00","text":"所以我們還是主張，A 版的好處就是我們在院會，而且我們是用下午排全院委員會，等於還有\n上午的時間，那這個上午的時間就可以處理大家希望處理的法律案，一個上午！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:10.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:11.501000+08:00","text":"而且如果我們\n有這麼多上午的時間，基本上是夠的；你要把它排到委員會的話，基本上就是浪費委員會，因\n為委員會沒有辦法跟全院委員會同時召開，所以就會浪費了委員會，而且我剛剛了解一下，如\n果以 C 版的這個全院委員會，那一週幾乎都是民進黨在擔任召委的時候，我們民進黨希望處理\n預算，所以我們會積極的去排預算，如果要排全院委員會，國民黨跟民眾黨希望用委員會的時\n協 11\n間來排全院委員會的話，那是不是可以避開這一個禮拜？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:11.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:12.501000+08:00","text":"所以蔡書記長的意思是避開 10、11、12？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:12.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:13.501000+08:00","text":"我們是主張 A 啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:13.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:14.501000+08:00","text":"因為 A 版的好處是委員會還是可以繼續召開嘛，因為委員會跟院\n會跟全院委員會沒有辦法同時召開，那確實會浪費了委員會的時間。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:14.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:15.501000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得 A 版還是比較好，如果他們有重要的法律案，基本上都還有半天的時間\n，我覺得 A 版真的是比較好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:15.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:16.501000+08:00","text":"好，蔡書記長還是一樣堅持 A 版，請黃國昌總召二次發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:16.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:17.501000+08:00","text":"我想可能等一下請議事同仁稍微說明一下，全院委員會在排會的時候，按照我們過去\n這幾年所出現的狀況，是不是全院委員會一開，其他委員會就沒有辦法再開？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:17.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:18.501000+08:00","text":"2016 年以前似乎\n是這樣，但 2016 年以後似乎就不是這個樣子了，是不是可以請議事同仁稍微說明一下？","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:18.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:19.501000+08:00","text":"過去全院委員會在召開期間，各常設委員會的召委原則上會滿尊重全院委員會，所以\n他就不會去排相關案子，但是在上一屆的時候，因為常設委員會有一些特別的案子，召委覺得\n要趕快排，所以他就在全院委員會期間也排了常設委員會的特定議程，其他委員會有時候不排\n，這最主要是因為涉及到常設委員會的召委跟全院委員會之間時程的安排，我們全院委員會主\n要是進行一些審查會議，有些都是預訂好名單了，常設委員會的話就是個別議案，所以這個最\n主要是過去已經有，但不一定是這樣子。","quality":0.039},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:19.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:20.501000+08:00","text":"所以這一次如果大家有決定某時候要全院委員會或什\n麼，當然是可以做，按照過去的方式去加以考慮，以上報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:20.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:21.501000+08:00","text":"我們高處長也跟大家報告完，請柯總召再發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:21.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:22.501000+08:00","text":"因為全院委員會都是很清楚，還有各委員會都很清楚，還有立法院組織法也規定得很\n清楚，民進黨三十年如一日，從來不會……不論我們是少數、多數，都不會破壞這個規矩，至\n於上一屆，那時候在野黨有一、兩次破壞這個規矩，但是我們還是堅持回到原來，本來應該怎\n麼樣就是怎樣，你可以去查資料，過去我們不管在野或者執政，都是一樣，都一定遵守吳思瑤\n常常講的，我們要照規則來，是不是這樣？是。","quality":0.025},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:22.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:23.501000+08:00","text":"我想這個是顛撲不破的道理，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:23.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:24.501000+08:00","text":"這個院長協商一下，都可以解決的問題，但是\n不必這樣一定要破壞什麼，破壞這個議事規則，這樣不是很好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:24.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:25.501000+08:00","text":"我們休息 5 分鐘，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:25.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:26.501000+08:00","text":"休息（15 時 9 分）\n繼續開會（15 時 23 分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:26.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:27.501000+08:00","text":"我們現在針對 C 版的大概達成共識，三個黨團幹部都已經達成共識，我們就請高處長把 12\n月 11 號調到 12 月 18 號，審查大法官，12 月 12 號調到 12 月 19 號，12 月 10 號我們就審查院長\n跟副院長，大致上是這樣，請高處長整體再念一遍，讓大家更清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:27.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:28.501000+08:00","text":"按照剛剛院長的裁示，原則上我們 C 版的 12 月 10 號院會日是舉行全院委會的第一\n協 12\n天，另外原來 C 版的 11 跟 12，我們就往下移到 18 跟 19 這兩天，大法官同意權的記名投票因為\n要間隔 10 天，所以有可能要拉到 31 號，我會按照這個版本先寫出一個協商結論跟附表，然後\n再給大家看。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:28.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:29.501000+08:00","text":"院長，不好意思，我對你沒有不敬的意思，但是剛剛在講的時候，是說如果往下拉會\n多動到 31 號……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:29.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:30.501000+08:00","text":"沒有，不會影響，還是 31 號啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:30.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:31.501000+08:00","text":"沒有啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:31.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:32.501000+08:00","text":"本來是 24 號嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:32.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:33.501000+08:00","text":"大法官還是 31 號啦！對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:33.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:34.501000+08:00","text":"沒有影響。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:34.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:35.501000+08:00","text":"所以就會影響到 31 號那天本來會開的院會嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:35.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:36.501000+08:00","text":"我有說錯嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:36.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:37.501000+08:00","text":"31 號本來就是大法官。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:37.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:38.501000+08:00","text":"31 號哪有本來就是大法官啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:38.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:39.501000+08:00","text":"A 版的 31 號。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:39.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:40.501000+08:00","text":"不是啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:40.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:41.501000+08:00","text":"我就沒有要答應用 A 版嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:41.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:42.501000+08:00","text":"12 月 24 日啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:42.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:43.501000+08:00","text":"不是，請您說明一下直接影響……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:43.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:44.501000+08:00","text":"沒有問題，我們再請高處長回答一下……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:44.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:45.501000+08:00","text":"因為顯然還是沒有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:45.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:46.501000+08:00","text":"黃總召，沒關係，我們請高處長再說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:46.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:47.501000+08:00","text":"方才如果按照把 12 月 11 號、12 號這兩天拉到 18、19，因為同意權的法律規定，就\n是全院委員審查完畢要有一個 10 天的等待期，才能夠進行院會的記名投票，如果大家有共識拉\n成 18、19，那大法官的投票日會變成落在 12 月 31 日；如果大家不想要 12 月 31 號，要拉到 24\n日的話，那全院委員會的審查最後結束就變成是要往前，大概是這樣子。","quality":0.05},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:47.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:48.501000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝黃總召讓高處長回答。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:48.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:49.501000+08:00","text":"現在請柯總召發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:49.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:50.501000+08:00","text":"我們本來提出來的大法官同意權行使就是全部由院會，大法官投票還是 31 號，根本\n沒有影響，這還是一樣，A 版的加起來還是沒有影響，也是 31 號嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:50.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:51.501000+08:00","text":"一樣的啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:51.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:52.501000+08:00","text":"但是如果調到 12 月 4 號跟 12 月 5 號的話，就可以在 24 號投票，黃國昌總召的重點在這裡\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:52.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:53.501000+08:00","text":"沒有，剛才 A 版也是 31 號嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:53.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:54.501000+08:00","text":"31 號投票……\n協 13","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:54.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:55.501000+08:00","text":"那沒有影響嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:55.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:56.501000+08:00","text":"24 號一樣是空出來。對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:56.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:57.501000+08:00","text":"還是 31 號，沒有差那時間，A 版還是 31 號。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:57.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:58.501000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部大家還有沒有其他寶貴的意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:58.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:59.501000+08:00","text":"如果統合都達成共識，吳思瑤幹事長，我們就\n暫時不發言，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:59.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:00.501000+08:00","text":"我們先確定一下大家能不能同意，如果同意，我們先把這個確定下來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:00.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:01.501000+08:00","text":"黃總召請發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:01.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:02.501000+08:00","text":"不好意思，我還是認為 31 號留下來開院會，剛剛柯建銘總召說是按照他們民進黨黨\n團本來希望的 A 版 31 號，沒有影響嘛！對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:02.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:03.501000+08:00","text":"但問題是我們一開始就沒有同意 A 版。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:03.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:04.501000+08:00","text":"韓院長拿出來的也是 A 版，也是一樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:04.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:05.501000+08:00","text":"不好意思，我可以講話嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:05.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:06.501000+08:00","text":"沒問題，可以，請繼續發言，黃總召，沒問題，請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:06.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:07.501000+08:00","text":"我們要的是 B 版，剛剛我說得很清楚了，我說院長調和鼎鼐拿出 C 版，我們雖然不\n滿意，但是院長調和鼎鼐拿出 C 版，我們可以同意，不管是 B 版還是 C 版，投票就是在 24 號，\n沒有任何的變動啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:07.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:08.501000+08:00","text":"B 版也好、C 版也好，都是在 24 號投啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:08.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:09.501000+08:00","text":"換句話，黃國昌總召就是不同意 31 號投票，簡言之，你只同意 24 號投票，這是你的最終立\n場就對了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:09.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:10.501000+08:00","text":"吳思瑤幹長請發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:10.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:11.501000+08:00","text":"我講一下、我講一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:11.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:12.501000+08:00","text":"剛才韓院長拿出來的 A 版是 31 號，我們今天就是說，這樣一個大家折衷的結果是 A\n加 B 加 C 的總合體，那是最圓滿的嘛！","quality":0.042},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:12.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:13.501000+08:00","text":"沒有一定要在 24 號投大法官，都是 A 加 B 加 C 嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:13.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:14.501000+08:00","text":"況\n且 A 也是韓院長提出來的啊！","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:14.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:15.501000+08:00","text":"雖然民進黨也提出這樣的，我只覺得這個地方大家不要堅持啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:15.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:16.501000+08:00","text":"反正大家一個原則，\n我希望韓院長也很清楚，因為全院委員會跟院會時間不可開委員會，這先確定……","quality":0.05},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:16.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:17.501000+08:00","text":"然後我們在這裡把所有事情做好，一定過的，時間很多，不夠，院會再加開都無所謂\n，重點是傅崐萁總召一直跟我在談的，就是什麼時候休會，要開到什麼時候？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:17.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:18.501000+08:00","text":"我們後續再來談\n，我們總是要把該做的事情做完，最晚可以開到 1 月 24 號而已，我們希望大家能夠……","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:18.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:19.501000+08:00","text":"我沒說……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:19.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:20.501000+08:00","text":"好，這一題不要談。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:20.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:21.501000+08:00","text":"休假的事情先不談，我們先把這個處理掉。","quality":0.118},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:21.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:22.501000+08:00","text":"請傅崐萁總召發言，吳思瑤幹事長請準備。好，請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:22.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:23.501000+08:00","text":"因為柯總召過去常常法力無邊，都會偷天換日，常常會有一些怪招，所以也不要怪在\n野黨，你法力無邊，常常會出一些奇奇怪怪的事情，所以大家才會說要把院會多留一些時間下\n協 14\n來，爭執點就在這裡。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:23.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:24.501000+08:00","text":"其實我剛剛已經講得很清楚，有沒有院會的時間可以處理法案，端看我\n們延會要延到什麼時候，那就能看有多少個禮拜五或禮拜二可以來討論，甚至我也擔心國家的\n總預算最後時程會來不及，全部都要審查完，所以我們甚至跟議事處高處長也在討論，1 月 25\n號國家就已經放年假了，我們只能延會到 1 月 24 號，萬一處理不完，連 18 號、19 號禮拜六、\n禮拜天，國民黨黨團都同意加開院會來處理，最好是來得及，我們不曉得提了多少案，柯總召\n到時候你就高抬貴手，大家的提案你同意就好了，不要表決就可以省很多時間。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:24.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:25.501000+08:00","text":"所以現在對延會的事情，也請求院長能夠在最短的時間內把延會的事情確認，因為很多的委\n員現在都在擔心這個會不曉得要開到什麼時候，大家所有的地方或者是很多的 schedule 都沒有\n辦法排，所以我覺得重點是柯總召也不要這麼堅持嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:25.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:26.501000+08:00","text":"考試院的人事同意權跟大法官人事同意\n權，我們都配合了，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:26.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:27.501000+08:00","text":"雖然都沒有來拜訪過我們，我們都同意審查了，也釋出高度善意\n了，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:27.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:28.501000+08:00","text":"時間不要這麼堅持，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:28.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:29.501000+08:00","text":"反正照表操課，大家一定會順利完成，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:29.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:30.501000+08:00","text":"我\n的建議是這樣，我覺得大家都不要再堅持了，其實 24 號、31 號對國民黨黨團都沒有什麼影響，\n能夠儘快就儘快，因為我們在等什麼時候要討論下一題，這一題真的已經搞掉我們一個半小時\n了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:30.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:31.501000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝傅總召。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:31.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:32.501000+08:00","text":"黃總召請發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:32.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:33.501000+08:00","text":"柯總召，你稍微等一下，因為你剛發言完畢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:33.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:34.501000+08:00","text":"黃總召請發言，柯總召請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:34.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:35.501000+08:00","text":"我剛剛本來是想建議，因為大家有一些想法嘛，所以是不是要休息 3 分鐘？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:35.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:36.501000+08:00","text":"但我尊重\n院長，院長覺得不要休息，繼續講下去也可以，要再講下去，我就重申我的立場──24 號投票。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:36.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:37.501000+08:00","text":"我跟傅總召報告一下，下一次朝野協商我們來確定延會到幾月幾號，我覺得很多委員要安排\n他們明年 1 月份的行程，他們心裡也會有一個底，否則對立法委員也不公平，所以我們接受傅\n總召剛才的建議，下一次的朝野協商我們來敲定延會到幾月幾號，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:37.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:38.501000+08:00","text":"柯總召，我們現在要休息 3 分鐘，您要先發言嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:38.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:39.501000+08:00","text":"還是先休息 3 分鐘？休息……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:39.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:40.501000+08:00","text":"吳思瑤幹事長要休息 3 分鐘，還是你要先發言？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:40.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:41.501000+08:00","text":"先休息 3 分鐘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:41.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:42.501000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:42.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:43.501000+08:00","text":"我們現在休息 3 分鐘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:43.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:44.501000+08:00","text":"休息（15 時 33 分）\n繼續開會（15 時 45 分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:44.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:45.501000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝黨團幹部，感謝私底下大家又討論得很密集。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:45.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:46.501000+08:00","text":"接下來請吳思瑤幹事長發言，傅崐萁\n總召請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:46.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:47.501000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:47.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:48.501000+08:00","text":"今天多次的休息就是因為讓我們三黨能夠好好磋商，大家定下來，大家都\n有心趕快來行使司法院人事同意權，我想這個沒有問題，就只是使用的是院會的時間還是委員\n會的時間。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:48.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:49.501000+08:00","text":"對於剛剛的 A 加 B 加 C 的共同折衷版，我們是 OK，大家既然協商好，就希望能夠\n來處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:49.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:50.501000+08:00","text":"所以如果是 A 加 B 加 C 的折衷版，就是會把 12 月 18 日跟 12 月 19 日兩天拉來作為全\n院委員會，大概是做這個調整。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:50.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:51.501000+08:00","text":"整個行使同意權投票的表決，也因為要 10 天來做審查報告，所\n協 15\n以司法院同意權的記名投票必須落在是在 12 月 31 號，這樣是兼顧在院會跟委員會時間的衡平\n，民進黨團是可以支持這樣子的一個折衷版。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:51.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:52.501000+08:00","text":"如果是採這個版本的話，還是要提醒一下，全院委員會開會的時候，常設委員會到底能不能\n開？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:52.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:53.501000+08:00","text":"剛剛黃國昌總召有問到這個問題，似乎高處長的回答也提到說是上兩屆的時候，民進黨多\n數的時候，有破了這個慣例。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:53.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:54.501000+08:00","text":"我來做一下說明，依據我們調出來議事處提供的資訊，全院委員\n會開會時，往例常設委員會是都不召開的，這個是慣例，也是大家都遵循的一個模式。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:54.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:55.501000+08:00","text":"上兩屆\n──第 9 屆跟第 10 屆確實有人破了這樣子的慣例，那是誰呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:55.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:56.501000+08:00","text":"需要我來做一個報告嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:56.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:57.501000+08:00","text":"第 9 屆\n，9 之 2 之 1，全院委員會進行司法院院長、副院長及大法官公聽會的那一週，安排委員會也召\n開的是內政委員會的陳超明召委、財政委員會的賴士葆召委、司法委員會的許淑華召委；在 9\n之 2 之 1 同樣也是那一次會，另外還有陳學聖委員在教育文化委員會也召開了常設委員會，這\n都是在第 9 屆行使司法院院長、副院長及大法官公聽會的時候，常設委員會破例召開的，我剛\n剛唱名的這些召委們是哪一個黨？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:57.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:58.501000+08:00","text":"我想大家都可以辨識。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:58.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:08:59.501000+08:00","text":"至於在第 10 屆進行監察委員同意權行\n使的時候，同樣使用了委員會的時間來召開全院委員會，常設委員會破例來召開的召委是誰呢\n？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:08:59.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:00.501000+08:00","text":"是衛環委員會的林為洲委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:00.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:01.501000+08:00","text":"所以我就很據實，我不喜歡以問答問，我不喜歡把話含在那裡\n，好像指涉別人，既然有人指涉誰壞了規矩，我就必須清楚地去調出議事資料，說明是哪些委\n員擔任召委的時候，在全院委員會審查的時間還破例去召開委員會，不好意思，這些召委都是\n國民黨的委員，但我們希望以後都不要。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:01.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:02.501000+08:00","text":"不要再講了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:02.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:03.501000+08:00","text":"好，因為剛才有人問，我就需要回答，我們希望 A 加 B 加 C 的折衷版，希望院長裁\n示，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:03.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:04.501000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝吳思瑤幹事長發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:04.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:05.501000+08:00","text":"接下來請傅崐萁總召發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:05.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:06.501000+08:00","text":"我是這樣建議啦，因為不管是柯總召的 A 版或是民眾黨的 B 版，我覺得還是尊重一\n下院長，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:06.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:07.501000+08:00","text":"尊重院長的 C 版，萬一你們大家都還有意見，民進黨還有意見，我們來搞一\n個 D 版，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:07.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:08.501000+08:00","text":"ABCD 的 D 啦，D 版是什麼東西我講一下啦，D 版就是剛剛柯總召還有吳思\n瑤幹事長一直念念有詞嘛，說 12 月 4 號、5 號或 11 號、12 號這兩週當中，如果排在 11、12 號\n，多是民進黨當召委，會影響到他們。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:08.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:09.501000+08:00","text":"我們現在如果改到 4 號、5 號的話，對於 24 號的院會投\n票就滿 10 天，可以很順暢的來進行，我們是不是建議，你們真的就在計較說有幾個召委，那很\n簡單嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:09.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:10.501000+08:00","text":"國民黨團願意來一個 D 版嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:10.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:11.501000+08:00","text":"你們如果是在 4 號、5 號這週，有哪幾個召委，國民黨團\n要跟你們換也可以嘛，來跟你們換，讓你們當召委嘛，這樣可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:11.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:12.501000+08:00","text":"這樣所有的問題都解決了\n嘛，所有的問題都解決了嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:12.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:13.501000+08:00","text":"你不是堅持你們要排案、要審查，那我們讓你排案嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:13.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:14.501000+08:00","text":"不就都讓\n你、請你了，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:14.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:15.501000+08:00","text":"我們就 24 號來儘快解決。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:15.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:16.501000+08:00","text":"不過我還是要強調一下，柯總召，你是執政黨在立法院的大頭目，我要特別講，今天不管是\n考試院的同意權，還是司法院的同意權，總不會說在野黨比你還急吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:16.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:17.501000+08:00","text":"24 號就審查完畢比較好\n，還是 31 號審查完畢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:17.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:18.501000+08:00","text":"能夠早一點審查完畢不是好事嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:18.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:19.501000+08:00","text":"剛剛吳思瑤跟蔡易餘兩位委員那個算\n盤都拿出來在算，到底那個禮拜是誰當召委，國民黨幾席，民進黨幾席，沒關係那都可以談啦\n協 16\n！","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:19.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:20.501000+08:00","text":"請你啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:20.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:21.501000+08:00","text":"我們就讓投票趕快定下來，因為這個議題已經討論兩個小時了，執政黨要有執政黨\n的格局嘛，不要那麼計較嘛，好不好？謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:21.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:22.501000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝心胸寬大的傅崐萁總召，願意割肉餵鷹。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:22.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:23.501000+08:00","text":"我們現在請柯總召。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:23.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:24.501000+08:00","text":"我不做如是觀啦，什麼心胸寬大！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:24.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:25.501000+08:00","text":"「平來平去」啦，大家都談得很清楚了，我們為什\n麼一直主張委員會的時間不要去用到，最主要是總預算審查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:25.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:26.501000+08:00","text":"總預算審查大家都瞭解，有一個\n召委是民進黨，一個召委是國民黨，歷年來國民黨都不排，都快要 12 月底，前年我還用抽出逕\n付二讀的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:26.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:27.501000+08:00","text":"往事不用提起，說現在的事就好了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:27.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:28.501000+08:00","text":"不要在那講往事不用提起，現在是在講很嚴肅的事情啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:28.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:29.501000+08:00","text":"後來用抽出逕付二讀。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:29.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:30.501000+08:00","text":"所以\n剛才大家都講定的事情，然後再翻，再翻 A 版、B 版、C 版、D 版，我是覺得不宜啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:30.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:31.501000+08:00","text":"對我們\n來說，11 月 24 跟 12 月 1 號，差一個禮拜，大法官同意權，都是一樣的意思，沒有急到那種程\n度，難道大家都會通過？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:31.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:32.501000+08:00","text":"不可能嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:32.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:33.501000+08:00","text":"所以這個事情院長有能力處理，他會去裁，他剛才就講過\n嘛，A 版、B 版他都可以嘛，我們是 A 版嘛，既然這樣的話，不要再翻來翻去，這樣就好了，\n其實都一樣啦，沒什麼差。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:33.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:34.501000+08:00","text":"你現在又搞一個 E、F 出來，院長，「一直轉」就是沒有效率，我們\n都很開誠布公在談事情，我這邊沒有藏任何東西，都是顧慮到各黨立場，你現在很奇怪說什麼\n……早一個禮拜或晚一個禮拜，大法官同意權行使都沒有差，難道有差嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:34.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:35.501000+08:00","text":"那會過嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:35.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:36.501000+08:00","text":"那就想\n看看嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:36.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:37.501000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝柯總召，現在請黃國昌總召，請發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:37.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:38.501000+08:00","text":"黃國昌總召發言完畢以後，我就嘗試性做個\n結論，好，請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:38.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:39.501000+08:00","text":"其實我覺得我們在討論一些事情的時候，我儘量避免把立法院裡面的事情個人化，因\n為個人化就不好了，變成好像是在對人，不是！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:39.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:40.501000+08:00","text":"我是在對事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:40.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:41.501000+08:00","text":"我前一輪發言的重點是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:41.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:42.501000+08:00","text":"我\n前一輪發言的重點是，全院委員會召開的時候，是不是絕對不能排委員會？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:42.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:43.501000+08:00","text":"我討論的是對事，\n所以我為什麼不談人，當初會這樣子運作就已經形成了這樣子的狀態，如果要把這個事擴及到\n人，那話也不能只講一半。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:43.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:44.501000+08:00","text":"2016 年 10 月 20 號，那個時候是全院委員會，全院委員會那時候也有兩個常設委員會的召委\n開會，那兩個常設委員會的召委，一位是趙天麟委員，一位是尤美女委員，我想是什麼黨籍的\n就不用講了，沒有關係啦，大家有各自的資料，我在這邊講話是對還是不對，查立法院公報就\n好了嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:44.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:45.501000+08:00","text":"但重點我還是要拉回來，我們討論事情就討論事情，如果把它變成人的問題就傷感情\n了，傷感情就破壞了院長的一番苦心，因為院長在協商的時候，我深刻感受到你的苦心，希望\n能夠和諧一點，大家往下走。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:45.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:46.501000+08:00","text":"我還是講回來，台灣民眾黨認為比較好的版本是 B 版，院長拿出了 C 版調和，我們體諒院長\n的苦心，也可以接受，如果最後大家都希望院長裁，那就請院長準備好 C 版就拿出來裁，如果\n院長裁 C 版，台灣民眾黨是可以同意的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:46.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:47.501000+08:00","text":"院長，你那個 C 版是經過討論，大家都定調的東西啊，這個事情沒有什麼好爭辯的\n協 17\n，要是 A 加 B 加 C 的最大公約數，有差那一個禮拜嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:47.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:48.501000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝柯總召。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:48.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:49.501000+08:00","text":"傅崐萁總召剛才講的是，如果定下來，召委那一星期的話，國民黨這邊也\n願意在 11 號、12 號換召集委員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:49.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:50.501000+08:00","text":"那個不是重點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:50.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:51.501000+08:00","text":"我知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:51.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:52.501000+08:00","text":"我確定一下是這樣，是不是？可以。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:52.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:53.501000+08:00","text":"因為這個案子我們已經談了兩個小時了，我想先做兩個小結論，一個就是以後全院委員會召\n開的時候，還是呼籲各常設委員會儘量停止召開，這第一點，呼籲大家停止召開，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:53.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:54.501000+08:00","text":"不要呼籲了，這已經成為慣例了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:54.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:55.501000+08:00","text":"對，都有舉例嘛，所以我再一次呼籲。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:55.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:56.501000+08:00","text":"第二個，我們下一次朝野協商的時候納入延會的討論\n，這就多了一個緩衝，也讓大家心裡的壓力可以降低一點，因為我們還必須要延會，延多長到\n時候再來決定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:56.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:57.501000+08:00","text":"這一次針對司法院人事、大法官的人事同意權，容我嘗試性的來綜合大家的共同意見，請大\n家聽聽看，如果大家同意，就照我所宣告的，我們這樣就確定了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:57.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:58.501000+08:00","text":"在 11 月 26 號考試院的時候，12 月 2 號一樣……我們 12 月 10 號、11 號、12 號開全院委員會\n，國民黨黨團剛才所承諾的再請傅崐萁總召、林思銘書記長回去以後跟蔡易餘、吳思瑤幹事長\n來協調。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:58.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:09:59.501000+08:00","text":"12 月 10 號全院委員會，12 月 11 號、12 號全院委員會，我想我們就照這個定下來，剛\n才蔡易餘書記長所擔心、關切的那個召集委員的事情，傅崐萁總召跟林思銘書記長散會之後跟\n民進黨黨團來進行協調當星期的召委由誰來當主席，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:09:59.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:10:00.501000+08:00","text":"這你們私底下，我們現在是在院\n裡面的朝野協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:10:00.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:10:01.501000+08:00","text":"第二個，我們就決定照 C 版，就是 24 號進行司法院、大法官人事同意權的投票，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:10:01.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:10:02.501000+08:00","text":"院長，你自己提出的案子，你還不堅持！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:10:02.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:10:03.501000+08:00","text":"你第一個提出來的是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:10:03.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:10:04.501000+08:00","text":"是 12 月 31 號嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:10:04.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:10:05.501000+08:00","text":"柯總召，我跟你報告，我沒有提任何 A 版、B 版，這是上一次會議大家所提的，民進黨所\n提的 A 版和台灣民眾黨所提的 B 版現在已經放在大家手上了，但是我擔心沒有辦法達成共識，\n所以我今天提出 C 版，這純粹是建議，我沒有提 31 號表決，我先報告一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:10:05.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:10:06.501000+08:00","text":"這一點剛才連吳思\n瑤都點頭了，就是根據你們上次所提的 A 版，台灣民眾黨所提的是 A 跟 B，但是我擔心沒有辦\n法達成共識，因為占到院會時間又占到委員會時間，所以今天我提出來這個 C 版，這裡面的表\n決時間也是 12 月 24 號。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:10:06.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:10:07.501000+08:00","text":"柯總召，我講話一定是一以貫之，請不要誤會我！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:10:07.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:10:08.501000+08:00","text":"院長，為什麼一定要 12 月 24 號表決？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:10:08.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:10:09.501000+08:00","text":"我聽不太懂，這個邏輯是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:10:09.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:10:10.501000+08:00","text":"因為我們如果 10 號、11 號……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:10:10.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:10:11.501000+08:00","text":"關於 12 月 24 號和 12 月 31 號，為什麼堅持一定要 24 號來處理大法官同意權？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:10:11.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:10:12.501000+08:00","text":"年底、差 7 天，12 月 24 號和 12 月 31 號差在什麼地方？協 18","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:10:12.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:10:13.501000+08:00","text":"其實我們就是照這個表所排的，就這樣定下來，因為我覺得這個事實上……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:10:13.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:10:14.501000+08:00","text":"你心裡要拿定主意啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:10:14.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:10:15.501000+08:00","text":"好，休息 3 分鐘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:10:15.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:10:16.501000+08:00","text":"休息（16 時 1 分）\n繼續開會（16 時 7 分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:10:16.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:10:17.501000+08:00","text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部，謝謝大家，大法官人事同意權的時程安排，我們討論兩個多小時了，我\n現在再嘗試做一個結論，拜託各位黨團幹部仔細傾聽。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:10:17.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:10:18.501000+08:00","text":"12 月 10 號、11 號、12 號我們全院委員\n會；12 月 24 號第 14 次院會，上午我們針對司法院人事同意權案進行記名投票表決，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:10:18.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:10:19.501000+08:00","text":"好\n，謝謝大家。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:10:19.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:10:20.501000+08:00","text":"我們進入下一案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:10:20.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:10:21.501000+08:00","text":"……要告訴我為什麼……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:10:21.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:10:22.501000+08:00","text":"讓新的大法官趕快上任就好……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:10:22.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:10:23.501000+08:00","text":"懷疑論，一天到晚在懷疑人家……我……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:10:23.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:10:24.501000+08:00","text":"謝謝兩位總召，兩位總召加起來已經 130 歲了，拜託閉嘴，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:10:24.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:10:25.501000+08:00","text":"主席在主持會議，謝謝柯\n總召、謝謝黃總召，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:10:25.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:10:26.501000+08:00","text":"好，現在研商「台灣民眾黨黨團建請院會作成決議：成立『國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失\n職調查委員會』就特定議案涉及事項提供相關調查資料，於必要時依立法院職權行使法第五十\n九條之一舉行聽證會，請公決案。","quality":0.023},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:10:26.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:10:27.501000+08:00","text":"」相關事宜。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:10:27.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:10:28.501000+08:00","text":"我們歡迎國家發展基金會副主任委員，高副主任委員，歡迎你；再來第 2 位是國家發展基金\n管理委員會副執行秘書，葉副執行秘書，歡迎您，請坐；第 3 位，我們歡迎經濟部產業發展署\n楊署長，歡迎您，請坐；第 4 位是金融管理監督委員會銀行局周副組長，歡迎您；第 5 位是證\n券期貨局陳簡任秘書，歡迎您。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:10:28.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:10:29.501000+08:00","text":"好，現在針對這個我來宣讀一下：一、我們現在協商本院台灣民眾黨黨團，為合理監督國發\n基金使用規劃，確實了解國家產業發展策略與投資評估，以保障納稅人之權益與國家資源，建\n請院會做成以下決議：成立國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會，要求國家發展委員\n會及行政院國家發展基金管理會等有關機關，就特定議案涉及事項提供相關調查資料，於必要\n時依立法院職權行使法第五十九條之一舉行聽證會，以落實國會監督，保障納稅人之權益。","quality":0.011},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:00.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:12.833000+08:00","text":"二\n、本案經 113 年 7 月 16 日立法院第 11 屆第 1 會期第 22 次院會決議：交付黨團協商，並由台灣\n民眾黨黨團負責召集協商。","quality":0.381},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:12.833000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:25.840000+08:00","text":"三、本案經由 113 年 11 月 5 日由黃國昌總召召集黨團協商，因當日","quality":0.087},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-14T15:07:25.840000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:38.847000+08:00","text":"協商仍然無法達成共識，因此主席裁示：依立法院相關規定處理。","quality":0.192},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-11-14T15:07:38.847000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:07:51.854000+08:00","text":"我們先請黃國昌總召、台灣民眾黨代表請發言。","quality":0.158},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:07:51.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T15:13:33.807000+08:00","text":"這個案子其實相當單純，之前我們就已經依照立法院職權行使法提案，但那個時候剛\n好是憲法法庭在做解釋的期間，所以我們就等憲法法庭的結果出來。","quality":0.46},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:13:33.807000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:13:41.304677+08:00","text":"憲法法庭的結果出來了，\n當然，對裡面的結果與部分的解釋我們感到遺憾！","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:13:41.304677+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:13:48.802355+08:00","text":"遺憾歸遺憾，我們就繼續往下走。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:13:48.802355+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:13:56.300032+08:00","text":"協 19\n就調查委員會跟聽證會舉行的部分，我們就按照現行沒有被憲法法庭宣告違憲的條文繼續往\n下走。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:13:56.300032+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:14:03.797710+08:00","text":"這個提案其實相對而言就是比較單純，我們接下來就完全按照有關立法院職權行使法與\n憲法法庭最後宣告的結果，也就是調查委員會是可以組成的；而調查委員會組成以後，我們該\n做的事情就做，至於其他部分，譬如來了以後不可以要他提供東西；他說謊，我們也沒有辦法\n，因為憲法法庭最後的結論是這個樣子。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:14:03.797710+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:14:11.295387+08:00","text":"對這個案子、我們的提案，有關國家發展基金過去所發生的一些狀況，非常多的人民、大家\n都還是很關心。","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:14:11.295387+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:14:18.793065+08:00","text":"所以我們一本初衷，過了協商冷凍期，憲法法庭的判決也出來了，因此我們就\n依照最後的結果，這件事情還是要繼續往下走。","quality":0.02},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:14:18.793065+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:14:26.290742+08:00","text":"以上先簡要的說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:14:26.290742+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:14:33.788419+08:00","text":"謝謝黃國昌總召。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:14:33.788419+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:14:41.286097+08:00","text":"接下來請蔡易餘書記長發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T15:14:41.286097+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:14:48.783774+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T15:14:48.783774+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:14:56.281452+08:00","text":"就民眾黨黃總召剛剛的發言，他要針對國發基金來成立調查委員會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T15:14:56.281452+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:15:03.779129+08:00","text":"我們\n看院會決議：要求國家發展委員會及行政院國發基金管理會有關機關，就特定議案涉及事項提\n供相關調查資料……。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T15:15:03.779129+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:15:11.276806+08:00","text":"所謂特定議案到底是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T15:15:11.276806+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:15:18.774484+08:00","text":"我想從這個提案來看是不清楚的。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T15:15:18.774484+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:15:26.272161+08:00","text":"大法官釋\n字第 729 號解釋強調，雖然那是調閱委員會，可是基本上跟調查委員會的精神是一致的，它認\n為要成立調閱委員會，必須目的跟範圍均屬明確之特定議案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T15:15:26.272161+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:15:33.769839+08:00","text":"所以目的跟範圍都要明確，而且\n還會涉及是不是在訴訟中、是不是已經在偵查中。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T15:15:33.769839+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:15:41.267516+08:00","text":"這在憲判字第 9 號也有處理到。","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T15:15:41.267516+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:15:48.765194+08:00","text":"所以這樣的\n提案，對於國發基金……好像國發基金全部的投資都是弊案，可是國發基金事實上還是有一些\n成功的投資，國發基金也是有賺錢的，不能說賠錢的就是弊案，有賺錢的就不是弊案，我覺得\n這個在邏輯上不對。","quality":0.08},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T15:15:48.765194+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:15:56.262871+08:00","text":"以大法官釋字第 729 號解釋所揭櫫的精神來說，你的調查目的、你的範圍必須要先明確，然\n後才有這個特定議案。","quality":0.045},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T15:15:56.262871+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:16:03.760548+08:00","text":"這樣看來所列舉的就好多，甚至在委員會的時候還有講到「零日攻擊」\n，「零日攻擊」也不在這整個案由裡面，可是在協商的時候還有講到「零日攻擊」，所以看起\n來這樣一個調查委員會就變成包山包海，這也不符合調查委員會必須屬於特定事項，而且這個\n特定議案必須要明確的一個原則，以上是我的意見。","quality":0.074},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:16:03.760548+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:16:11.258226+08:00","text":"謝謝蔡易餘書記長的說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:16:11.258226+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:16:18.755903+08:00","text":"請林思銘委員發言，鍾佳濱委員請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:16:18.755903+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:16:26.253581+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:16:26.253581+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:16:33.751258+08:00","text":"本黨是支持就國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職的事項來成立調查委員會\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:16:33.751258+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:16:41.248935+08:00","text":"剛才蔡易餘書記長提到這個特定議案是指什麼議案，其實我們從它要成立的委員會的性質就\n可以看得出來，主要就是針對國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職的相關弊案來成立調查委員會\n，所以這沒有所謂包山包海的問題啦，只要這些投資的相關公司沒有不當投資，也沒有管理失\n職，就不在我們調查委員會調查的範圍嘛，所以我想民進黨的顧慮是多餘的啦！","quality":0.013},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:16:41.248935+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:16:48.746613+08:00","text":"我們立法院會\n依照相關的職權行使法、憲法裁判所規範的相關法律規定來成立調查委員會，也會做出真相的\n調查，讓民眾充分了解國發基金的投資案件到底哪些有不當，以及什麼人有失職的地方，我想\n民眾有知的權利，所以我們非常支持成立調查委員會。","quality":0.019},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:16:48.746613+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:16:56.244290+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:16:56.244290+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:17:03.741968+08:00","text":"好，謝謝林思銘書記長的發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:17:03.741968+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:17:11.239645+08:00","text":"接下來鍾佳濱召委請表達意見。協 20謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-14T15:17:11.239645+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:17:18.737323+08:00","text":"我想這次 113 憲判 9 已經很清楚的對於立法院職權行使法（以下簡稱「立職法\n」）在經歷我們上會期的修法之後，對於部分條文宣告違憲，其中最核心的就是從第四十五條\n開始所謂調查權的行使。","quality":0.145},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-14T15:17:18.737323+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:17:26.235000+08:00","text":"我們先回到憲判 9 所說的，所謂第四十五條第一項規定，「立法院就\n與其憲法職權行使之特定議案有重大關聯之事項，且有調查之必要者，始得設調查委員會。","quality":0.159},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-14T15:17:26.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T15:20:11.418000+08:00","text":"」\n所謂的立法院職權，在憲法第六十三條很清楚的規定是「立法院有議決法律案、預算案、戒嚴\n案、大赦案、宣戰案、媾和案、條約案及國家其他重要事項之權。","quality":0.344},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-14T15:20:11.418000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:20:17.758382+08:00","text":"」因為就本案的標題，要成\n立的調查委員會是針對國發基金會，這是一個明確的基金，但認為其有不當投資暨管理失職，\n就是認為顯有不當投資或管理失職，為了要去了解有沒有這個事情而成立調查委員會，因為這\n會涉及特定案件，所以要求提供必要的調查資料。","quality":0.103},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-14T15:20:17.758382+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:20:24.098765+08:00","text":"首先，我們要看立法院在憲法第六十三條的條文當中，所謂國發基金不當投資暨管理失職是\n關涉到哪一條法律案、哪一項預算案，如果是要對於國發基金未來在預算審查當中，我們必須\n就其基金的使用要求了解，那就明確的就我們即將進行的預算審查當中，立法院基於行使憲法\n第六十三條的法定職權，審查預算案有必要的話，我們可以很清楚的指明是國發基金過去的哪\n些預算執行讓我們有必要在未來預算審查的時候進行調查。","quality":0.168},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-14T15:20:24.098765+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:20:30.439147+08:00","text":"接下來，我們來回顧一下立職法的通過跟演變，其實在立職法修法前，第八章是「文件調閱\n之處理」，現在修改後的第八章是「調查權之行使」，調查範圍就不設定是文件調閱，這個部\n分就大家來講，立法院的調查權是往前進的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-14T15:20:30.439147+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:20:36.779529+08:00","text":"原來第九章是「委員會公聽會之舉行」，以至於\n有現在第九章之一的「聽證會之舉行」，我們看看第九章之一「聽證會之舉行」的規定，明定\n「各委員會、調查委員會、調查專案小組為審查院會交付之議案……」，其中的各委員會就是\n指現在立法院的各委員會，調查委員會是根據第八章「調查權之行使」成立的調查委員會，這\n些所交付的議案。","quality":0.099},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-14T15:20:36.779529+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:20:43.119912+08:00","text":"因此這裡面涉及到的，我們剛剛提到了，因為在這個提案的主案文當中提到\n「於必要時依立法院職權行使法第五十九條之一舉行聽證會」，所以顯然這有兩個要件：第一\n個，先必須就立法院在行使哪一項憲法第六十三條所定的職權，我們有必要根據第八章「調查\n權之行使」去成立一個調查委員會，然後我們才能根據第九章之一「聽證會之舉行」去進行，\n也就是調查委員會為審查院會交付之議案開始進行聽證。","quality":0.139},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-14T15:20:43.119912+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:20:49.460294+08:00","text":"所以，我們希望在這個部分還是要敘\n明，如果沒有辦法指明是基於哪一項預算案的審查，或者哪一項立法院職權的行使所必要，要\n成立一個調查委員會，我們當然無由來成立。","quality":0.099},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-14T15:20:49.460294+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:20:55.800676+08:00","text":"如果調查委員會無由成立，當然就無法根據我們\n新訂的第九章之一「聽證會之舉行」第五十九條之一，調查委員會為受理院會交付的議案去進\n行必要的聽證會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-14T15:20:55.800676+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:21:02.141059+08:00","text":"以上先做這樣的說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:21:02.141059+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:21:08.481441+08:00","text":"謝謝鍾佳濱委員的說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:21:08.481441+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:21:14.821824+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部，容我先暫停一下這個國家發展基金不當投資的討論\n，針對剛才大法官時程的協商草稿，現在已經完成，我唸一下，請各位黨團幹部聽一下，如果\n可以，我們就進行簽字：\n「立法院黨團協商結論","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-11-14T15:21:14.821824+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:21:21.162206+08:00","text":"113 年 11 月 14 日（星期四）下午 2 時","quality":0},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2024-11-14T15:21:21.162206+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:21:27.502588+08:00","text":"紅樓 201 會議室\n協 21\n決定事項：\n一、12 月 2 日（星期一）舉行司法院人事同意權案公聽會，由各黨團推薦學者專家代\n表 7 人參加，由國民黨黨團推薦 3 人、民進黨黨團推薦 3 人、台灣民眾黨黨團推\n薦 1 人；各黨團審查小組委員亦依上述比例推派委員組成。","quality":0.086},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2024-11-14T15:21:27.502588+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:21:33.842971+08:00","text":"名單請於 11 月 26 日（\n星期二）中午 12 時前送交議事處彙整，逾時視同放棄。","quality":0},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2024-11-14T15:21:33.842971+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:21:40.183353+08:00","text":"二、12 月 10 日（星期二）改開全院委員會，並與 11 日（星期三）、12 日（星期四）\n合併為一次會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2024-11-14T15:21:40.183353+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:21:46.523735+08:00","text":"12 月 10 日（星期二）上午審查司法院院長被提名人，下午審查司\n法院副院長被提名人；12 月 11 日（星期三）及 12 日（星期四）審查大法官被提\n名人，每位被提名人各由 7 位委員進行詢答，由國民黨黨團推派 3 人、民進黨黨\n團推派 3 人、台灣民眾黨黨團推派 1 人代表進行。","quality":0.093},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2024-11-14T15:21:46.523735+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:21:52.864118+08:00","text":"名單請於 12 月 9 日（星期一）\n中午 12 時前送交議事處彙整，逾時視同放棄。","quality":0},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2024-11-14T15:21:52.864118+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:21:59.204500+08:00","text":"詢答順序依例授權議事處辦理。","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2024-11-14T15:21:59.204500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:22:05.544882+08:00","text":"審\n查完畢後，於 12 月 24 日（星期二）院會上午行使同意權案記名投票表決。","quality":0.037},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2024-11-14T15:22:05.544882+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:22:11.885265+08:00","text":"三、上開行使同意權案投票時，司法院院長、副院長及 5 位大法官被提名人併為一張\n同意權票。","quality":0.216},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2024-11-14T15:22:11.885265+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:22:18.225647+08:00","text":"四、有關行使司法院院長、副院長及 5 位大法官被提名人同意權案相關事務及時程詳\n如附表。","quality":0.162},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2024-11-14T15:22:18.225647+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:22:24.566029+08:00","text":"五、各黨團如有關於司法院院長、副院長及大法官被提名人之書面問題，請於 11 月 28\n日（星期四）中午 12 時前送至議事處彙整，並由本院函送提名機關轉致被提名人\n，俾利後續審查之進行。","quality":0.056},{"speaker":"地點","start":"2024-11-14T15:22:24.566029+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:22:30.906412+08:00","text":"」\n各位黨團幹部，請問對於剛才本席所宣讀的朝野協商結論有無寶貴意見？","quality":0.033},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:22:30.906412+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:22:37.246794+08:00","text":"可不可以請問一下？","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:22:37.246794+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:22:43.587176+08:00","text":"可不可以請議事人員幫我們說明一下，因為已經幾年沒有行使大法官的同意權案。","quality":0.235},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:22:43.587176+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:22:49.927559+08:00","text":"你\n們的第三點是說，行使同意權案投票時，這個票怎麼印，您是說院長、副院長及 5 位大法官併\n為一張同意票，那個會是怎麼規劃？","quality":0.059},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:22:49.927559+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:22:56.267941+08:00","text":"因為我有點在想那個形式怎麼樣，想要問一下比較有經驗\n的……","quality":0.12},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:22:56.267941+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:23:02.608324+08:00","text":"非常好，這個問題問得非常好，麻煩請高處長解釋一下。","quality":0.045},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:23:02.608324+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:23:08.948706+08:00","text":"非常好，這是非常好的問題。","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-11-14T15:23:08.948706+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:23:15.289088+08:00","text":"這張票會長成是一張，裡面會有院長、副院長，你就同意跟不同意，然後另外五位被\n提名的大法官也是同意、不同意，我們會把這個票製作好之後，在進行投票表決之前，先把樣\n本給各黨團看。","quality":0.132},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:23:15.289088+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:23:21.629471+08:00","text":"我想問一下，我印象中好像是分開吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:23:21.629471+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:23:27.969853+08:00","text":"譬如說，院長、副院長都分開。對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:23:27.969853+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:23:34.310235+08:00","text":"那為什麼這一次你要併在一起？","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-11-14T15:23:34.310235+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:23:40.650618+08:00","text":"因為我們在上一次對考委的案子進行協商的時候，針對併為一張，我們就是考試委員\n和考試院院長、副院長併為一張，所以這一次我們就循最近的這一次協商來做，看你們有沒有\n協 22\n意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:23:40.650618+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:23:46.991000+08:00","text":"那我覺得這個可能要討論一下，你說考委那一次，對不起，我沒有注意到……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-11-14T15:23:46.991000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:23:53.331382+08:00","text":"考委是寫成一張。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:23:53.331382+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:23:59.671765+08:00","text":"考委的人數是一張，但是我回到過去的慣例，我印象中歷次都是分開印製，就算考委\n那一次協商是一張，那個是因為方便投票，大家也是可以調整，重點是第一個是回到慣例，第\n二個是在大家行使的過程當中方便清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-11-14T15:23:59.671765+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:24:06.012147+08:00","text":"考委已經簽了，就是併為一張。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-11-14T15:24:06.012147+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:24:12.352529+08:00","text":"另外，我們實際上在進行唱票的時候，因為過去是不\n記名，如果分開，在時間上還容許，如果說這次要變記名然後又分開的話，時間可能會拉比較\n長，這個是背後的考慮。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高處長百祥","start":"2024-11-14T15:24:12.352529+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:24:18.692912+08:00","text":"考試委員、考試院院長是併為一張，大法官就看大家的意見怎麼樣，\n我們沒有特定的立場。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:24:18.692912+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:24:25.033294+08:00","text":"我們一定尊重各黨團幹部，因為考試院院長、副院長、考試委員是併在一張，我們大家都簽\n字同意了，現在如果司法院是比照考試委員，除非變成考試院跟司法院將來投的票不一樣，這\n個要請大家一併考量。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:24:25.033294+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:24:31.373676+08:00","text":"沒有關係，同意記名嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:24:31.373676+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:24:37.714059+08:00","text":"好，那就是確認一下，因為要釐清一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:24:37.714059+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:24:44.054441+08:00","text":"好，謝謝思瑤幹事長的問題，問得非常好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:24:44.054441+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:24:50.394824+08:00","text":"請柯總召。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-11-14T15:24:50.394824+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:24:56.735206+08:00","text":"我記得考試委員提名的時候，上次我們簽朝野協商那一張，有關於以書面提問的問題\n，問到個人問題時他到底要不要回答，我們就尊重他，因為到最後還是在質詢的時候可以問，\n所以這個不構成以後非難的理由，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:24:56.735206+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:25:03.075588+08:00","text":"好，謝謝柯總召的叮嚀。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:25:03.075588+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:25:09.415971+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部，我現在先簽字，等簽字完畢，再麻煩各黨團幹部簽\n字，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:25:09.415971+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:25:15.756353+08:00","text":"非常感謝，我們一個案子、一個案子來處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:25:15.756353+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:25:22.096735+08:00","text":"OK，請各黨團幹部迅速簽字。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:25:22.096735+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:25:28.437118+08:00","text":"接下來，我們繼續進行台灣民眾黨黨團建請院會作成決議成立「國家發展基金不當投資暨管\n理失職調查委員會」的案子，現在請黃國昌總召發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:25:28.437118+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:25:34.777500+08:00","text":"要不要尊重行政部門，讓他們先講講話？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:25:34.777500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:25:41.117882+08:00","text":"還是我們要繼續下去？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:25:41.117882+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:25:47.458265+08:00","text":"我想聽一下行政部門的意見，這是一個非常好的建議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:25:47.458265+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:25:53.798647+08:00","text":"好，我們現在麻煩一下國家發展委員會高副主委，請發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高副主任委員仙桂","start":"2024-11-14T15:25:53.798647+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:26:00.139029+08:00","text":"好，院長還有各位委員，我想大家都知道，國發基金是因為產創條例成立的，\n所以我們主要就是在扶植一些新創的產業，這些產業可能都需要創新轉型，所以我們當初在投\n資的時候，在投資的過程都按照三個階段，也就是要政策評估審議、投資評估審議還有委員會\n，然後我們在所謂的基金管理裡面，我們都依據公司法跟相關的法令來辦理，所以不管是在投\n資的過程或者是我們管理的過程裡面，其實我們都按照既定的法令來做。","quality":0.006},{"speaker":"高副主任委員仙桂","start":"2024-11-14T15:26:00.139029+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:26:06.479412+08:00","text":"大家都知道，因為我\n們是一個策略性的基金，所以我們的投資一定會有某些公司是虧損的，那當然我們總的獲利其\n協 23\n實還是蠻驚人的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高副主任委員仙桂","start":"2024-11-14T15:26:06.479412+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:26:12.819794+08:00","text":"我想今天要成立這個委員會，它的名稱叫做「國家發展基金不當投資暨管理\n失職調查委員會」，我的意思就是說，虧損並不代表它是不當的投資跟管理的失職，所以我是\n覺得這個委員會在名稱上面的定義好像未審先判，因為就已經認定，好像感覺上因為某些虧損\n的公司，基本上就是一些不當的投資跟管理的失職，所以對這一點我覺得要先釐清，以上說明\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:26:12.819794+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:26:19.160176+08:00","text":"謝謝高副主委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:26:19.160176+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:26:25.500559+08:00","text":"接下來我們黨團幹部哪一位要發言？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:26:25.500559+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:26:31.840941+08:00","text":"請吳思瑤幹事長發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:26:31.840941+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:26:38.181324+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:26:38.181324+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:26:44.521706+08:00","text":"我想剛剛本黨的委員，蔡易餘也好，或是鍾佳濱召委也好，都針對這一次\n的憲判結束之後，對於整個調查權在院會層級可以行使院會層級的調查委員會，那相關的依據\n，憲判之後，事實上立法院要做的當務之急，是應當去檢視有關於立法院職權行使法第八章的\n調查權之行使，乃至於後續聽證的部分，應當先就適法性來做一個全盤是不是要修法的這個思\n維。","quality":0.034},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:26:44.521706+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:26:50.862088+08:00","text":"因為未來在成立調查的過程當中，現在大法官會告訴我們的是哪些條文違憲，但大法官沒\n有告訴我們哪些條文怎麼修，在大法官宣告違憲之後，後續要修法就是立法院的工作，所以現\n在要啟動院會層級的調查委員會，坦白講，依現在的立法院職權行使法，就變成是一部相對…\n…我這樣形容不曉得合不合理、合宜，但事實上，我看來它就是一個拼裝車。","quality":0.007},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:26:50.862088+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:26:57.202471+08:00","text":"所以我們要用一\n個更負責任的方式，針對立法院職權行使法第八章調查權之行使做一個全面的條文檢視，讓它\n成為一個合宜的法制，然後來進行後續調查委員會的行使，這個是立法院現在要做的第一件事\n情。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:26:57.202471+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:27:03.542853+08:00","text":"第二件事情，回到民眾黨所提的這樣的一個議案，要成立院會層級的調查委員會，你的主體\n性，就以這個案子寫的是國發基金的不當投資，我想剛剛我們國發會副主委也說明了，那我要\n進一步再來確認一下，就是說你行使調查權是為了輔助你，不管是審預算或審法案，它是一個\n輔助性的權力，所以你要很聚焦，你認為國發基金的不當投資是哪些案子？","quality":0.049},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:27:03.542853+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:27:09.883235+08:00","text":"我為了準備這樣的\n一個……我試圖去了解民眾黨提案的內容，所以我去看了國發基金，我手上拿的是 113 年第二季\n的季報，第二季的季報就是最新的季報，我們可以看到國發基金投資非常多，重要新興事業的\n投資有 72 件，我手上厚厚一本，72 件重要新興事業的投資。","quality":0.039},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:27:09.883235+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:27:16.223618+08:00","text":"第二大類是專案投資，專案投資裡\n頭又分為加強投資中小企業實施方案，有 285 案，又例如加強投資文創產業實施方案，也是上\n百案，我還沒有來得及統整出這個數字。","quality":0.015},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:27:16.223618+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:27:22.564000+08:00","text":"第三類的專案投資是加強投資策略性服務業的實施方\n案，也是上百案，第四大類的專案投資就是加強投資策略性製造業的實施方案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:27:22.564000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:27:28.904382+08:00","text":"所以國發基金\n投入專案投資就有中小企業、文化創意產業、策略性的服務業跟策略性的製造業，這是第二大\n類，加起來是上千案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:27:28.904382+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:27:35.244765+08:00","text":"第三類國發基金的投資就是創業投資事業方案，這個大家比較熟悉，創\n業投資的事業投資有 63 案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:27:35.244765+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:27:41.585147+08:00","text":"第四大項目，國發基金投資了創業天使投資方案，這個我們在爭取\n新創，我們都非常支持，所以國發基金投入天使方案有 222 案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:27:41.585147+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:27:47.925529+08:00","text":"最後一類就是在疫情期間對於\n新創事業的影響，國發基金也給予國家的預算來協助他們振興。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:27:47.925529+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:27:54.265912+08:00","text":"所以我整個把現在國發基金第\n二季的季報全部加起來就是上千案的投資。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:27:54.265912+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:28:00.606294+08:00","text":"我不曉得民眾黨的委員針對他們想要調閱的這個主題「國家發展基金不當投資……」的定義\n是什麼。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:28:00.606294+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:28:06.946676+08:00","text":"就如剛剛副主委說的，如果把虧損就列為不當的投資，這樣是不正確的理解，譬如說\n協 24\n天使投資，我們幫助新創這些 start up，在第一階段，他們不可能現在就盈餘，我們是要在創業\n的第一階段給他們第一桶金，所以到底他定義的不當投資是什麼？","quality":0.068},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:28:06.946676+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:28:13.287059+08:00","text":"或者是民眾黨的提案也可以\n針對我的提問，上千案的投資，請問民眾黨劍指的又是哪一案或是哪幾案？","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:28:13.287059+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:28:19.627441+08:00","text":"否則這麼大的一個\n範圍，就只是寫到國發基金的不當投資，幾千案，這個調閱委員會怎麼處理？","quality":0.079},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:28:19.627441+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:28:25.967824+08:00","text":"所以主題性的明\n確非常需要被確立，否則可能立法院的調查委員會在相對法律還沒有修得更周全的狀況之下就\n去啟動，會不會去影響了這數千案裡面，光調閱就很難？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:28:25.967824+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:28:32.308206+08:00","text":"所以我想要再更清楚地去釐清，如果\n是以我手上拿的這個當初院會交付下來的討論事項，確實有寫到幾個案子的名稱，難道就是聚\n焦這幾案嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:28:32.308206+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:28:38.648588+08:00","text":"這幾案當中還不乏已經被檢調調查中的，也有包括被監察院調查中的，如果依立\n法院職權行使法以及憲判，還包括過去的釋字第 585 號、729 號，都告訴我們對於偵查中的案件\n，立法院的調查權是不能夠去介入的。","quality":0.012},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:28:38.648588+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:28:44.988971+08:00","text":"所以我花了一些時間作這些說明，是我的提問跟我的不理解，究竟民眾黨團對於國發基金的\n投資標的，到底哪些是他們想要行使調查權的範圍？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:28:44.988971+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:28:51.329353+08:00","text":"這些範圍是扣合著作為調查權是立法委員\n的輔助權力，您是要有利於對於您行使審查預算或是審查法案必要性的輔助，這些前提都沒有\n確立，所以有必要請這個提案的黨團再釐清，否則這個調查委員會成立之後很難運作。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T15:28:51.329353+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:28:57.669735+08:00","text":"我講回原來的根源，現在立法院該做的事情是針對憲判之後的配套修法，立法院職權行使法\n調查權的專章要好好來修。","quality":0.122},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:28:57.669735+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:29:04.010118+08:00","text":"謝謝吳思瑤幹事長，接下來請台灣民眾黨提案的黃國昌總召，請說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:29:04.010118+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:29:10.350500+08:00","text":"其實我們當初在 7 月 10 號的時候提案成立這一個調查委員會，我剛剛已經說明過了\n，後來憲法法庭的判決出來，對它的結論，我們覺得遺憾，有很多東西我們未必那麼認同，但\n是結果出來就是結果出來，我們在公開的場合可以批判，有各式各樣不同的評論，我們都尊重\n，今天我也不是要在這邊重新再去論述一次，每個人有每個人的立場。","quality":0.148},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:29:10.350500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:29:16.690882+08:00","text":"我們現在繼續往下走，就調查委員會的組成以及連接聽證會的形式，被憲法法庭認為是違憲\n的部分，譬如說不可以邀一般的人、愛來不來沒關係、說謊也沒關係，反正憲法法庭我們同意\n不同意，就是按照它的遊戲規則，我們繼續把它往下走。","quality":0.062},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:29:16.690882+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:29:23.031265+08:00","text":"第二個部分，剛剛有委員垂詢，我們在今年 7 月 10 號的時候提這個案子，到底是要行使什麼\n樣的輔助性權力？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:29:23.031265+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:29:29.371647+08:00","text":"跟哪一個議案綁在一起？","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:29:29.371647+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:29:35.712029+08:00","text":"那我就比較詳實的跟大家說明。","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:29:35.712029+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:29:42.052412+08:00","text":"過去這幾年，國發\n基金現實上面的投資，要創新、產業轉型，我們都同意，沒有意見，但問題是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:29:42.052412+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:29:48.392794+08:00","text":"問題是我\n們國發基金甚至連執政黨的立委都在質疑它是不是成為紓困基金？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:29:48.392794+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:29:54.733176+08:00","text":"我為什麼說它是不是成為紓\n困基金？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:29:54.733176+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:30:01.073559+08:00","text":"譬如說，我為什麼在提案前面舉例子的時候會去舉到有關於像聯合再生的案子，聯合\n再生剛開始投的時候，民進黨的立委就質疑那 3 家公司已經虧了一屁股，一百多億，再投錢下\n去是在紓困嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:30:01.073559+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:30:07.413941+08:00","text":"太陽能面板這個東西，老實講，某個程度上，我這樣講或許有點不好意思，但\n是了解產業的人都知道，它在臺灣已經成為夕陽產業了，根本沒有競爭力！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:30:07.413941+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:30:13.754324+08:00","text":"所以對於這個投資\n的決定本身，事實上是有很多人提出質疑的。","quality":0.038},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:30:13.754324+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:30:20.094706+08:00","text":"我如果把時間的脈絡再拉長一點，甚至像現任總\n統府的秘書長潘孟安，他當初在處理有關於國發基金議案的時候，他是反對用什麼管理辦法去\n管國發基金，那個時候潘孟安秘書長是立委，他真知灼見，痛罵國發基金成為紓困基金，所以\n協 25\n他說應該要用一個管理條例來處理有關於國發基金投資的事宜。","quality":0.073},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:30:20.094706+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:30:26.435088+08:00","text":"回到這裡來講，當我們的國發基金成為有特殊關係的人可以引進國發基金去投，所以它成為\n紓困基金，當初民進黨立委所提出來的質疑真的是有先知灼見，因為那個時候在財政委員會，\n我人也在財政委員會，民進黨立委提出質疑的時候，國發會副主委拍胸脯保證說沒有問題，這\n個投下去相信很快就轉虧為盈了。","quality":0.008},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:30:26.435088+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:30:32.775471+08:00","text":"這些在立法院公報上面白紙黑字記載得都非常清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:30:32.775471+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:30:39.115853+08:00","text":"等到\n2024 年的今天我們再回顧這段歷史，從國發基金投進去以後，聯合再生現在虧了多少錢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:30:39.115853+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:30:45.456235+08:00","text":"又虧\n了一百多億！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:30:45.456235+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:30:51.796618+08:00","text":"代表當初質疑的人，人家質疑的有沒有道理？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:30:51.796618+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:30:58.137000+08:00","text":"非常有道理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:30:58.137000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:31:04.477382+08:00","text":"不僅是不是虧損這件\n事情質疑得有道理，甚至當初投錢下去讓聯合再生成為所謂的綠能國家隊，綠能國家隊的表現\n是什麼，表現到……不是我說的，是現任國發會主委說的，現任的國發會主委在我公開質詢的\n時候承認了，對於聯合再生，投了以後實際上面的表現，連國發會主委自己都搖頭啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:31:04.477382+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:31:10.817765+08:00","text":"他在立\n法院公開說，我們準備要退場了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:31:10.817765+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:31:17.158147+08:00","text":"準備要退場就是這家公司不能再搞下去，對於這家公司的公\n司治理，他自己都沒辦法認同。","quality":0.081},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:31:17.158147+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:31:23.498529+08:00","text":"甚至包括可惡到我們自己的綠能國家隊在我們的軍事要塞裡面裝中國製、老共、共匪做的有\n關於光電通訊的產品，這個事情是誰幹的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:31:23.498529+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:31:29.838912+08:00","text":"是我們國發基金位列第一大股東的公司幹出來的事\n情。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:31:29.838912+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:31:36.179294+08:00","text":"甚至包括在彰濱工業區那邊違法套利，連監察院都糾正，監察院並不是在調查當中，監察\n院已經調查完了，它就做出了糾正。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:31:36.179294+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:31:42.519676+08:00","text":"胡搞、瞎搞！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:31:42.519676+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:31:48.860059+08:00","text":"它不是在調查中喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:31:48.860059+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:31:55.200441+08:00","text":"它已經調查完了，胡搞\n、瞎搞，所以被糾正。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:31:55.200441+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:32:01.540824+08:00","text":"當監察院面對這麼嚴重的案子，它也是舉得很高，然後輕輕拍一下說你\n這個不對喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:32:01.540824+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:32:07.881206+08:00","text":"你當初在整個投標、招標的過程當中，出現了很嚴重的讓國家整個錢短少，轉賣\n拿去套利。","quality":0.028},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:32:07.881206+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:32:14.221588+08:00","text":"這一些會直接扣合到，剛剛也有民進黨的委員說，你講了這麼多，那我們現在就有關於調查\n權行使的部分要扣合什麼？","quality":0.042},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:32:14.221588+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:32:20.561971+08:00","text":"要扣合特定的議案嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:32:20.561971+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:32:26.902353+08:00","text":"所以剛剛有委員垂詢說那扣合的議案到底是\n什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:32:26.902353+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:32:33.242735+08:00","text":"我們先姑且不論現在在處理的預算案，因為 7 月 10 日我在提要成立調查委員會之前，已\n經提了一個特定的議案，那個特定的議案其實就跟我要成立調查委員會的目的緊密地扣合在一\n起，為什麼說緊密地扣合在一起？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:32:33.242735+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:32:39.583118+08:00","text":"跟大家報告一下，在成立這個調查委員會的提案之前，我已\n經在 7 月 3 日提了產業創新條例第三十條的法律案。","quality":0.045},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:32:39.583118+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:32:45.923500+08:00","text":"產業創新條例第三十條的這個法律的特定\n議案，我在處理的是什麼議題？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:32:45.923500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:32:52.263882+08:00","text":"我跟大家報告一下，我在處理的事情是，國發基金的運用不可\n以用於下列的情況：第一款的狀況是，不可以用於企業虧損的紓困。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:32:52.263882+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:32:58.604265+08:00","text":"國發基金不可以拿來當作\n企業虧損的紓困，這個是早期民進黨在針對國發基金進行監督的時候……我從早期立法院公報\n、議事錄裡面很清楚地看到我們的前立法委員潘孟安大聲疾呼，國發基金不可以成為紓困基金\n，他那個時候強度還拉到應該要用法律明定整個國發基金的管理，而不是讓行政部門透過辦法\n的方式去管理，這算是有先知灼見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:32:58.604265+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:33:04.944647+08:00","text":"你可以說產業要創新、要發展，這個大家都 OK，但你不可\n以把它拿來紓困。","quality":0.033},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:33:04.944647+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:33:11.285029+08:00","text":"第二個是投資主要生產活動位於中國大陸的企業。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:33:11.285029+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:33:17.625412+08:00","text":"為什麼我會反對國發基金投資主要生產活\n動位於中國大陸的企業呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:33:17.625412+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:33:23.965794+08:00","text":"國發基金應該要扶植我們本土的產業，讓它能夠升級、轉型，國發\n基金怎麼會去投一個夕陽產業，而且那個夕陽產業主要的生產活動竟然還在中國大陸，把臺灣\n協 26\n人的錢、臺灣納稅人的錢、臺灣資本市場所拿到的錢全部丟到中國大陸那邊去，讓不肖的商人\n在那邊胡搞瞎搞！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:33:23.965794+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:33:30.306176+08:00","text":"當我這樣提的時候，有人可能會質疑你究所何指？","quality":0.05},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:33:30.306176+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:33:36.646559+08:00","text":"我們國發基金什麼時候幹\n過這種事？有啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:33:36.646559+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:33:42.986941+08:00","text":"國發基金幹這種事情最有名的案子就是如興那個案子，那個時候決定要投資\n之前已經釀成了資本市場的大笑話了，表面上是我們國發基金進場去併購中國的玖地，但是所\n有在資本市場的人都看得出來，那個叫做逆併購，表面上是我們去併購人家，實際上是被人家\n吞了，所以如興的營運總部是設在臺北，但臺北有幾個人？","quality":0.008},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:33:42.986941+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:33:49.327324+08:00","text":"國發基金投的錢，在資本市場因為\n國發基金進場，一般的投資大眾進去的錢全部都跑去哪裡了？","quality":0.051},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:33:49.327324+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:33:55.667706+08:00","text":"全部都跑去中國大陸胡搞瞎搞，\n搞到現在如興的狀況是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:33:55.667706+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:34:02.008088+08:00","text":"如興的狀況是，我們當初國發基金帶著大家進場，搞到現在錢在\n那邊被胡搞瞎搞完了，我不好意思說股票成為壁紙啦，受害的恐怕不是只有我們國發基金，受\n害的還有很多投資人，他們欲哭無淚啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:34:02.008088+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:34:08.348471+08:00","text":"當初是投著國發基金進場。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:34:08.348471+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:34:14.688853+08:00","text":"所以剛剛有委員在問，我\n們綁的特定議案是什麼，當我們說產創條例應該要這樣修正的時候，我綁的是這個法律案，至\n於在這個法律案裡面是不是有具體的情況符合這個法律案應該考慮的、排除的消極要件？","quality":0.153},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:34:14.688853+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:34:21.029235+08:00","text":"這個\n調查委員會成立以後，我們的調查委員會可以按照這個議案的目的、範園，就必要性的部分進\n行調閱。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-14T15:34:21.029235+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:34:27.369618+08:00","text":"不好意思占用了比較長的時間，但是因為有委員問，我就還是要簡單地說明一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:34:27.369618+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:34:33.710000+08:00","text":"謝謝台灣民眾黨黃國昌總召的發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:34:33.710000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:34:40.050382+08:00","text":"各位委員，請容我嘗試性地來宣讀一下，因為剛剛各黨團都已經表達過意見了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-14T15:34:40.050382+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:34:46.390765+08:00","text":"還沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:34:46.390765+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:34:52.731147+08:00","text":"我知道，是各黨團幹部都表達過意見了，鍾佳濱委員你也講過了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:34:52.731147+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:34:59.071529+08:00","text":"我知道那邊的都有來，像\n許宇甄委員來了、沈伯洋委員都到了，而且還愈來愈多。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:34:59.071529+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:35:05.411912+08:00","text":"我現在想，因為 3 個黨團都已經發言\n過了，畢竟後面包括內政部劉部長已經等一天半了都還在隔壁，所以我先把這個議案嘗試性地\n唸唸看，看大家有沒有意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:35:05.411912+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:35:11.752294+08:00","text":"我也歡迎沈伯洋委員、洪申翰委員、許宇甄委員，現在大家來了都要發言，我想就先稍微等\n一下，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:35:11.752294+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:35:18.092676+08:00","text":"讓我先嘗試性地唸一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:35:18.092676+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:35:24.433059+08:00","text":"本院是否成立國發基金調查委員會，這個案子已經超過冷凍期，這是第一點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:35:24.433059+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:35:30.773441+08:00","text":"現在聽各黨團\n大家發言的內容似乎無法達成共識，這是第二個，所以我們是不是就保留院會處理？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:35:30.773441+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:35:37.113824+08:00","text":"沒關係，\n你們等一下可以修正。","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:35:37.113824+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:35:43.454206+08:00","text":"第三、我這邊有一個協商的草案，我來唸一遍，大家來指導一下、聽聽\n看，如果大家都認同，我們就簽字；如果大家不認同的話，我們就等下一次，好不好？","quality":0.102},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:35:43.454206+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:35:49.794588+08:00","text":"立法院黨團協商結論：113 年 11 月 14 日（星期四）下午 2 點。","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:35:49.794588+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:35:56.134971+08:00","text":"協商主題：研商「台灣民眾黨\n黨團，建請院會作成決議：成立『國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會』就特定議案\n涉及事項提供相關調查資料，於必要時依立法院職權行使法第五十九條之一舉行聽證會，請公\n決案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:35:56.134971+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:36:02.475353+08:00","text":"」相關事宜。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:36:02.475353+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:36:08.815735+08:00","text":"協商結論只有兩點：一、本案保留送院會處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:36:08.815735+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:36:15.156118+08:00","text":"二、院會進行處理的時候\n，由各黨團推派 1 位，依台灣民眾黨黨團、民進黨黨團、國民黨黨團順序輪流發言，每人發言\n時間為 3 分鐘，發言完畢之後即依提出先後進行各黨團版本之處理。","quality":0.028},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:36:15.156118+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:36:21.496500+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部跟各位委員，如果針對這個協商結論有意見，請大家發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:36:21.496500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:36:27.836882+08:00","text":"協 27\n因為發言完了，許宇甄委員要不要發言？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:36:27.836882+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:36:34.177265+08:00","text":"因為這是輪流的。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:36:34.177265+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:36:40.517647+08:00","text":"沒有嘛！好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:36:40.517647+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:36:46.858029+08:00","text":"沈伯洋委員發言完\n畢之後，我們就請王鴻薇黨團幹部發言，再請吳思瑤好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:36:46.858029+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:36:53.198412+08:00","text":"因為黨團幹部是比較優先的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:36:53.198412+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:36:59.538794+08:00","text":"請沈伯洋委員，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-14T15:36:59.538794+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:37:05.879176+08:00","text":"我儘量縮短我的發言，雖然剛剛有很多其實我覺得不太合理的地方，但是因為我覺得\n重點是我們有沒有一個協商的結論。","quality":0.04},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-14T15:37:05.879176+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:37:12.219559+08:00","text":"所以我回到剛剛思瑤幹事長講的地方，因為立法院職權行\n使法有很多條文被宣告違憲，但因為大法官沒有處理條文之間的矛盾，我舉幾個小例子就好，\n譬如說利益迴避的問題，第五十三條之三那邊有訂，後面就沒訂了，其實調查委員會一定有利\n益迴避的問題。","quality":0.123},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-14T15:37:12.219559+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:37:18.559941+08:00","text":"再來還有期中報告，有一些條文有期中報告，有一些條文沒有，這也很矛盾。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-14T15:37:18.559941+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:37:24.900324+08:00","text":"最矛盾的地方是，因為大法官只處理違憲，他沒有處理告知義務，因為我們在成立調查委員會\n叫人來問話的時候，一定要告訴他，你什麼時候可以拒絕證言，這個東西你可以不要講等等之\n類的，那一個告知的程序當時漏訂、沒有訂在上面，沒有訂在上面的話，就會變成這個調查委\n員會在執行的時候會有太多缺漏。","quality":0.047},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-14T15:37:24.900324+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:37:31.240706+08:00","text":"但是我們也會認為，其實各黨要去做什麼調查，他們要發起\n，我覺得那是他們的自由，但是是不是可以說，我們趕快先把立法院職權行使法這些漏洞，就\n是我剛剛講的這幾個漏洞趕快先修，修補了之後，再來好好的成立相關的調查委員會，我覺得\n這樣聽起來應該會比較合理才對，所以這是針對這件事情的建議。","quality":0.016},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-14T15:37:31.240706+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:37:37.581088+08:00","text":"我就快速的回到剛剛國昌委員提到的這幾個問題，畢竟調查是需要範圍的，但是按照他本來\n這樣寫，那個範圍有點大。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-14T15:37:37.581088+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:37:43.921471+08:00","text":"他剛剛有說，因為按照大法官這次的解釋，他是說相關議案而且跟\n立法院委員的職權有關，相關議案他已經提出來了，他說是用法律案，不是用預算案，但如果\n是用法律案的話，會有幾個疑點，他剛剛那個叫產業創新什麼條例的，就是什麼相關的條例，\n產創條例，如果我是為了產創條例的範圍要怎麼執行，然後我要來調查的話，這個不需要調查\n，這個行政機關做就好了。","quality":0.02},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-14T15:37:43.921471+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:37:50.261853+08:00","text":"我們立法委員是要把抽象的法立出來，至於範圍，那個只要有抽象\n的法規範就好，其實不需要用調查委員會來決定，所以我覺得這個理由好像有點不太充分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-14T15:37:50.261853+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:37:56.602235+08:00","text":"第二個就是，他說要調查這個到底是不是紓困，然後紓困跟虧損到底差別在哪裡？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-14T15:37:56.602235+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:38:02.942618+08:00","text":"其實我剛\n剛這樣聽下來，我覺得黃國昌委員已經調查完了，就是剛剛講的，譬如說逆變器，其實我覺得\n那個逆變器的調查很好，就是你有發現有中國製的逆變器在那邊，這個是他連質詢都沒有質詢\n他就調查完了。","quality":0.093},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-14T15:38:02.942618+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:38:09.283000+08:00","text":"他為什麼有如此神通廣大的能力？","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-14T15:38:09.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T15:40:21.069000+08:00","text":"這我不知道，但總之他有這個能力。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-14T15:40:21.069000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:40:54.314486+08:00","text":"所以如\n果今天逆變器他已經調查完了，他也質詢了，然後他說，誰誰誰關係深厚，他那個連連看已經\n畫完了，關係深厚他也講完了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-14T15:40:54.314486+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:41:27.559973+08:00","text":"然後針對潘孟安秘書長之前講的，要用條例，不用辦法，這個\n也不是調查的範圍。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-14T15:41:27.559973+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:42:00.805459+08:00","text":"如果按照他剛剛講完之後，他其實不是有定見而已，他調查結束了，既然\n調查結束了，又突然要成立一個調查委員會，那個理由就不夠充分了嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-14T15:42:00.805459+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:42:34.050946+08:00","text":"但是我覺得這是各黨\n的自由，只是回應他剛剛講的這個地方，其實我覺得這個調查委員會沒有必要成立，但如果真\n的要成立，其實也不是很久以前的事，大法官的裁判剛出爐，趕快把立法院職權行使法相關矛\n盾的規定全部先梳理完，之後再來處理。","quality":0.05},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2024-11-14T15:42:34.050946+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:43:07.296432+08:00","text":"按照剛剛國昌委員的講法，他提到按照第五十九條之\n一第幾款就可以直接做了，其實沒有，就像我剛剛提的那幾個程序的規定，那幾個矛盾都還沒\n有解決，以上簡單的意見。協 28","quality":0.141},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:43:07.296432+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:43:40.541919+08:00","text":"謝謝沈伯洋委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:43:40.541919+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:44:13.787405+08:00","text":"王鴻薇首席副書記長請發言，吳思瑤幹事長請準備。","quality":0.048},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:44:13.787405+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:44:47.032892+08:00","text":"好，謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:44:47.032892+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:45:20.278378+08:00","text":"院長，我還是講一下我們這個會議的程序，剛剛說這是黨團協商，應\n該是由幹部來發言，當然有些法案或程序部分，譬如剛才鍾佳濱委員有來發言，因為他是司法\n及法制委員會召委，而這個立法院職權行使法，尤其在釋憲之後，有沒有不夠完備的地方，我\n尊重他的發言。","quality":0.259},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:45:20.278378+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:45:53.523865+08:00","text":"但老實說，今天如果民進黨在三長之外，或者相關委員會的提案委員或召委之\n外，派出一大堆人都可以發言，那麼院長你主持這個協商會議真的會越來越苦。","quality":0.062},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:45:53.523865+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:46:26.769351+08:00","text":"因為院長人很\n好，也非常尊重各委員到協商會議來，就是尊重大家的發言，但我覺得會議的相關程序、遊戲\n規則最好還是要遵守，否則到時候各黨派都用人海戰術，那這邊的協商就會沒完沒了，你看我\n們前面其實也已經花費很多時間了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:46:26.769351+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:47:00.014838+08:00","text":"好，回到要不要成立調查委員會的議題，第一個，完成釋憲之後，我們在院會本來就可以成\n立調查委員會，也就是說，對於這次的釋憲雖然不滿意，但是我們也願意接受。","quality":0.104},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:47:00.014838+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:47:33.260324+08:00","text":"好，這就已經\n限縮了國會相關調查權力，現在連委員會都不能成立調查小組，所以很多人質疑我們其實都還\n不如地方議會，譬如包含民進黨津津樂道的所謂京華城相關案子，臺北市議會在委員會也成立\n了調查小組，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:47:33.260324+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:48:06.505811+08:00","text":"現在我們在委員會已經不能成立調查小組，而經過釋憲之後，在院會可\n以成立調查委員會，如果今天連這個都還不能成立，那請問一下，我們立法院到底要自我綁手\n綁腳到什麼樣的程度？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:48:06.505811+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:48:39.751297+08:00","text":"這是其一。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:48:39.751297+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:49:12.996784+08:00","text":"第二，有關國發基金相關投資有沒有涉及不當投資或甚至涉及相關弊端的問題，該不該成立\n調查委員會來做更詳細的了解，讓民眾有知的權利？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:49:12.996784+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:49:46.242270+08:00","text":"其實我們只要走出立法院，到業界去走一\n圈，就會發現國發基金這幾年的不當投資。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:49:46.242270+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:50:19.487757+08:00","text":"剛才我聽到應該是副主委的說法，他說不能因為虧\n損就說有什麼不當，可是如果今天我們投資的六十幾家新興事業，有半數都在虧損，請問這叫\n不叫做不當？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:50:19.487757+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:50:52.733243+08:00","text":"在我的定義裡，半數都虧損，那當然是不當啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:50:52.733243+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:51:25.978730+08:00","text":"另外，國發基金這幾年踩雷確實\n踩得非常非常多，比如剛才黃國昌總召提到的，我就不再贅述，可是確實在整個投資過程，投\n資的公司不但虧損，現在我們也準備撤資，譬如之前的聯合再生、如興，到現在面臨的 Gogoro\n，Gogoro 馬上就要在美國下市。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:51:25.978730+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:51:59.224216+08:00","text":"今天外界一再質疑為什麼國發基金踩雷踩那麼多，如果我們覺\n得可以不用調查、不用給所有納稅人一個解釋，或者讓立法委員能夠了解，我不懂耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:51:59.224216+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:52:32.469703+08:00","text":"如果這\n樣子，我們都還覺得國發基金 OK 啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:52:32.469703+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:53:05.715189+08:00","text":"沒有什麼問題啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:53:05.715189+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:53:38.960676+08:00","text":"沒有什麼不當啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:53:38.960676+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:54:12.206162+08:00","text":"有人有臉講，我是沒\n有臉出去這樣講啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:54:12.206162+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:54:45.451649+08:00","text":"我覺得今天成立這個調查委員會，也就是說，如果國發基金自認沒有不當\n投資，投資都很棒，有虧損都是別人的問題，不是自己的問題，你怕什麼調查呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:54:45.451649+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:55:18.697135+08:00","text":"越調查越清\n楚不是嗎？","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:55:18.697135+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:55:51.942622+08:00","text":"針對這個部分要特別跟大家報告，可能也有委員會說國發基金沒有問題，它每年都\n有很多的獲利啊！","quality":0.098},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:55:51.942622+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:56:25.188108+08:00","text":"沒有錯，它每年獲利都在 200 億元以上，它的獲利非常多，但是我告訴大家\n，國發基金到現在都吃老本，大家都知道，國發基金過去最好的投資就是台積電，還好當時國\n發基金沒有出脫台積電的持股。","quality":0.013},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:56:25.188108+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:56:58.433595+08:00","text":"跟大家報告，每一年國發基金來自於台積電的股利貢獻超過 260\n億，所以如果你今天看到它非常好，有什麼問題呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:56:58.433595+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:57:31.679081+08:00","text":"賺那麼多錢，你們還有什麼問題呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:57:31.679081+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:58:04.924568+08:00","text":"那我\n要告訴大家，幾乎都來自於台積電股利的貢獻。","quality":0.095},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:58:04.924568+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:58:38.170054+08:00","text":"基於以上，尤其這幾年有關於國發基金踩雷，\n協 29\n外界有很多很多的質疑，所以我覺得在經過釋憲之後，立法院很負責任的在……我們也尊重大\n法官最後釋憲的結果，雖然我們不滿意，但我們也願意接受啊！","quality":0.148},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:58:38.170054+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:59:11.415541+08:00","text":"如果這樣還不能成立，我覺得\n這樣子真的對不起納稅人這麼多的錢，而且也會讓外界有更多的質疑。","quality":0.049},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T15:59:11.415541+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T15:59:44.661027+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T15:59:44.661027+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:00:17.906514+08:00","text":"謝謝王鴻薇首席副書記長的發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:00:17.906514+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:00:51.152000+08:00","text":"接下來吳思瑤幹事長發言之前，我想建議一下，黨團幹部發言還是要針對我剛才所唸的協商\n結論這個範疇，拜託大家不要脫離好不好？","quality":0.109},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:00:51.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T16:00:51.512000+08:00","text":"因為我們現在都沒辦法聚焦。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:00:51.512000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:00:55.618289+08:00","text":"吳思瑤幹事長請發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:00:55.618289+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:00:59.724577+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:00:59.724577+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:01:03.830866+08:00","text":"針對這個協商結論，我們當然覺得沒有辦法同意，為什麼呢？","quality":0.292},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:01:03.830866+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:01:07.937154+08:00","text":"因為這樣一\n個包山包海的提案，然後主體範圍不明確，而且是架構在釋憲之後，立法院職權行使法需要好\n好來研修的這些前提之下，此時此刻來成立的調查委員會，我覺得這是大有問題。","quality":0.092},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:01:07.937154+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:01:12.043443+08:00","text":"我們同意立\n法委員擁有調查權，這個大法官也都沒有否認，從釋字第 585 號、第 729 號，到這一次的 113 年\n憲判字第 9 號，都肯認立法委員調查的權力，只是立法委員調查的權力是一個輔助性、是一個\n手段性的權力，它不是一個目的性的權力，也就是在憲法法庭上，大法官問得非常清楚，查弊\n案是立法委員的核心權力嗎？","quality":0.065},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:01:12.043443+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:01:16.149731+08:00","text":"黃昭元大法官也問了黃國昌委員，立法院查弊，你是要否定第 585\n號嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:01:16.149731+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:01:20.256020+08:00","text":"這是蔡宗珍大法官說的，是要否定釋字第 585 號嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:01:20.256020+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:01:24.362308+08:00","text":"我也不知道黃總召的想法，我們在\n討論他的案子，但黃總召好像離開了，有點可惜。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:01:24.362308+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:01:28.468597+08:00","text":"所以這樣一個協商結論當然沒有辦法處理，\n而我認為現在的對話都很有意義，因為我們主張要把法律修好，把立法院職權行使法前後有矛\n盾的地方，把它做一個完備的研議之後，再來行使調查權，會讓我們的調查更有力，會讓立法\n院的調查更有依據，而不會招致前後條文不一、自我矛盾、窒礙難行的限制，所以要把法修好\n，依據大法官的釋憲結果來修，這是一個重要的事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:01:28.468597+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:01:32.574886+08:00","text":"第二個，我也回應一下剛剛的說法，王鴻薇委員現在離開一下下，正因為這是全院委員會的\n調查委員會，對不起，院會層級的調查委員會事涉 113 位立委，所以我認為沈伯洋委員來這裡發\n言何錯之有？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:01:32.574886+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:01:36.681174+08:00","text":"因為這是院會層級的調查委員會，我希望不要限制委員來參與這個珍貴的調查委\n員會如果要成立的討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:01:36.681174+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:01:40.787463+08:00","text":"第三大部分，到底國發基金的投資有沒有踩雷？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:01:40.787463+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:01:44.893751+08:00","text":"有沒有踩雷，數字會說話，以蔡英文總統上\n任到現在民進黨執政的 105 年到 112 年，國發基金的總體獲益是 1,660 億元。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:01:44.893751+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:01:49.000040+08:00","text":"如果要比較的話，\n比起馬英九執政的 8 年，獲益只有 471 億，民進黨執政下的國發基金大幅增加獲益 1,189 億，比\n馬英九執政時期成長了 3.5 倍，對於這樣子的投資績效，怎麼立法院就把它扣上踩雷，是不當投\n資，只要投資了幾間是虧損的公司……我們剛剛已經說了，沒有投資一定會贏的，全世界沒有\n投資一定贏的，國家的責任就是要扶植我們必要扶植的產業，我也希望能夠導正國發基金就是\n踩雷，所以我們要查、要查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:01:49.000040+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:01:53.106328+08:00","text":"我覺得可以查，但是那個範圍要明確，定義要清晰。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:01:53.106328+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:01:57.212617+08:00","text":"最後，剛剛黃國昌總召說，這個調查委員會的調查權行使是輔助他去修正產業創新條例第三\n十條，他是要去修法，所以需要成立調查委員會協助他修法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:01:57.212617+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:02:01.318905+08:00","text":"我們就來看看他修的這個法，他\n提出來的產創條例第三十條的修法，是要增加最後一項，也就是第二項。","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:02:01.318905+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:02:05.425194+08:00","text":"黃國昌、民眾黨的修\n法條文就是：「……國家發展基金之運用，不得用於下列情形：一、企業虧損之紓困。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:02:05.425194+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:02:09.531483+08:00","text":"二、投\n協 30\n資主要生產活動位於中國大陸之企業。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:02:09.531483+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:02:13.637771+08:00","text":"三、投資過去三年內違反環境保護、勞工或食品安全衛\n生相關法律且情節重大之企業。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:02:13.637771+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:02:17.744060+08:00","text":"」如果是為了這個條文的修法，我們在經濟委員會好好來討論\n，立法委員很快可以達到共識。","quality":0.054},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:02:17.744060+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:02:21.850348+08:00","text":"為了這樣的修法、單一條文的單一項次，不應當無限擴大到要\n成立一個立法院層級的調查委員會，去查他現在還講不清楚要查哪幾間虧損的企業。","quality":0.067},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:02:21.850348+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:02:25.956637+08:00","text":"所以這是\n一個不對等權力的使用，也是一個過當權力的使用，就法律論法律，對於他修產創條例第三十\n條來成立這個調查委員會，合理嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:02:25.956637+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:02:30.062925+08:00","text":"不合理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:02:30.062925+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:02:34.169214+08:00","text":"第二個，把立法院職權行使法修好，讓立法院未來可以啟動的調查委員會更強而有力，更有\n法律的 support，更有清楚的遊戲規則，這是民進黨的主張，有任何該調查的事情絕對不迴避，\n但是立法院現在要用一套真的是拼裝車的職權行使法裡面的調查權專章去行使，我都認為那只\n會自我限縮我們的權力。","quality":0.023},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:02:34.169214+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:02:38.275502+08:00","text":"所以我真的要奉勸一下院長，您這樣的協商結論，講白話，翻譯一下，就是你要讓這個案子\n去院會表決，你剛剛的結論恐怕就是這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:02:38.275502+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:02:42.381791+08:00","text":"所以我花了這麼久跟院長、跟大家做意見的交流，\n院長也點頭如搗蒜。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:02:42.381791+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:02:46.488080+08:00","text":"所以針對產創條例第三十條單一項次的修法，要去成立全院調查委員會，\n範圍這麼大，到現在還講不清楚要調查的是哪一間不當投資的公司，這樣不行，很危險，很危\n險也很不合理，所以我一定要嚴正表達我們的立場。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:02:46.488080+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:02:50.594368+08:00","text":"謝謝吳思瑤幹事長表達得非常清楚，我們能達成共識就達成共識，如果不能達成共識，我們\n會有我們的處理方式。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:02:50.594368+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:02:54.700657+08:00","text":"接下來吳春城幹事長發言結束之後，我要做結論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:02:54.700657+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:02:58.806945+08:00","text":"請發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2024-11-14T16:02:58.806945+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:03:02.913234+08:00","text":"我是副總召，我升官了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:03:02.913234+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:03:07.019522+08:00","text":"升官了，好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:03:07.019522+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:03:11.125811+08:00","text":"吳春城副總召，有主官加給，請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2024-11-14T16:03:11.125811+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:03:15.232100+08:00","text":"沒有加給。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2024-11-14T16:03:15.232100+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:03:19.338388+08:00","text":"OK，我還是代表民眾黨發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2024-11-14T16:03:19.338388+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:03:23.444677+08:00","text":"國發基金坐擁巨資，管理鬆散，績效不彰\n，外界傳言很多，已成為追求利益的人士所覬覦的方便之門，外界的傳言很多，我覺得國人很\n想瞭解，立法院是一個民意機關，民進黨的委員也是民意代表，大家很希望掀開這個神秘的蓋\n子，讓國人有知的權利，所以不要一直去擋、一直去蓋，包括我們也沒有說定罪，所有的東西\n都是無罪推定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2024-11-14T16:03:23.444677+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:03:27.550965+08:00","text":"但是透過國會調查委員會的運作、聽證的程序，讓它更加的明白，也讓我們的\n國人能夠瞭解國家的產業發展策略，還有這些投資評估的情況，來保障納稅人的權益及國家資\n源，我覺得這個是一件應該要做的事情，所以我非常贊成院長所提出的協商結論。","quality":0.029},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:03:27.550965+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:03:31.657254+08:00","text":"謝謝吳春城副總召。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:03:31.657254+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:03:35.763542+08:00","text":"現在有兩個副總召，一個是傅崐萁總召，一個你是副總召，所以我們要\n分得很清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:03:35.763542+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:03:39.869831+08:00","text":"各位幹部，我知道大家意見都很多，我們後面還有其他的法律案，我建議我們既然現在達不\n成共識，我們就繼續溝通，協商草稿請大家參考啦，我們後續也只能夠依照議事規則來處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:03:39.869831+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:03:43.976119+08:00","text":"我現在宣布休息 5 分鐘之後，我們進行下一案選罷法的協商，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:03:43.976119+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:03:48.082408+08:00","text":"好，我們現在休息 5 分\n鐘，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:03:48.082408+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:03:52.188697+08:00","text":"休息（17 時 11 分）\n繼續開會（17 時 20 分）\n協 31","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:03:52.188697+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:03:56.294985+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部請坐。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:03:56.294985+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:04:00.401274+08:00","text":"我們現在討論「公職人員選舉罷免法」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-14T16:04:00.401274+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:04:04.507562+08:00","text":"院長，我是請求，因為過去我們參加朝野協商，不管誰大誰小，大家都互有退讓，也\n可以就我們爭議的標的不要沒有共識，就沒有達成協商，很可惜。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-14T16:04:04.507562+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:04:08.613851+08:00","text":"我剛剛試著提出，因為目前\n民眾黨有一個產創條例第三十條已經交付經濟委員會審查，依照過去的立職法，我們只能召開\n公聽會，但是經過立職法的修改之後，依第五十九條之一可以開聽證會，聽證會是根據新的立\n職法，成立調查委員會也是根據新的立職法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-14T16:04:08.613851+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:04:12.720139+08:00","text":"但是從剛剛的發言可以發現，如果我們現在就根\n據一個大法官宣告部分違憲，還沒有經過完全修法的立職法來辦理，成立調查委員會，它的風\n險跟幅度是比較大的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-11-14T16:04:12.720139+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:04:16.826428+08:00","text":"但是根據第五十九條之一，委員會本來就可以辦理公聽會，所以我們是\n不是可以因為經濟委員會行使院會交付審查的產創條例第三十條，我們除了辦理公聽會，邀請\n社會人士來貢獻意見之外，也可以針對民眾黨所提議的這些特定案例，我們來辦理聽證會，以\n上建議。","quality":0.073},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:04:16.826428+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:04:20.932716+08:00","text":"謝謝鍾委員，我們已經講了繼續溝通，等到繼續溝通的時候，你剛剛這麼精彩的內容，可以\n在溝通的時候再講一遍，好不好？謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:04:20.932716+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:04:25.039005+08:00","text":"現在的協商主題為傅崐萁委員等 16 位以及許宇甄委員等 20 位分別擬具「公職人員選舉罷免\n法部分條文修正草案」兩案，經第 1 會期第 22 次會議決定逕付二讀，併案交付黨團協商。","quality":0.116},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:04:25.039005+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:04:29.145294+08:00","text":"本案\n於 10 月 23 日由國民黨團林思銘委員主持，我們已經先行召集一次協商會議，當日協商會議各\n黨團無法達成共識，因此向院長請求要求進行黨團協商。","quality":0.049},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:04:29.145294+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:04:33.251582+08:00","text":"我們現在開始協商，針對法案的內容，我們今天先介紹一下列席的各位首長，首先……\n好，因為柯總召身體有點不舒服，我們掌聲歡送他。","quality":0.075},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:04:33.251582+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:04:37.357871+08:00","text":"柯總召，你多保重身體啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:04:37.357871+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:04:41.464159+08:00","text":"我們首先歡\n迎內政部劉部長，熱情歡迎，謝謝！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:04:41.464159+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:04:45.570448+08:00","text":"第二位歡迎中選會李主委，熱情歡迎。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:04:45.570448+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:04:49.676736+08:00","text":"第三位歡迎司法院\n的周廳長，熱情歡迎。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:04:49.676736+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:04:53.783025+08:00","text":"第四位歡迎法務部的廖參事，熱情歡迎。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:04:53.783025+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:04:57.889313+08:00","text":"接下來，我們先請提案的國民\n黨團說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-14T16:04:57.889313+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:05:01.995602+08:00","text":"好，謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-14T16:05:01.995602+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:05:06.101891+08:00","text":"我想選罷法的修正，當然不管是執政黨，或者是中選會，在整個立法\n過程中都有很多意見，但是我還是要特別跟全國民眾說明，包含各位黨團幹部，我們現行的公\n職人員選舉罷免法要操作罷免非常容易，因為在連署的程序過程中，它存在非常多的弊病。","quality":0.049},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-14T16:05:06.101891+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:05:10.208179+08:00","text":"因\n此公職人員的選罷法連署罷免的門檻，我們認為必須加嚴，也就是必須要提供身分證的影印本\n，我們把這個入法，就是要避免罷免的程序，讓有心人士可以將收集到他人的身分證，或者是\n假冒的資料提出去當作連署的人數，而導致我們罷免連署的數據資料不公正，而且造假。","quality":0.062},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-14T16:05:10.208179+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:05:14.314468+08:00","text":"我們\n在過去就有很多次發生過這樣的實際例子，不同連署人的資料且簽具連署資料時的筆跡，可以\n說是完全不一樣的，甚至有死亡人的資料都出現在連署的人數中。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-14T16:05:14.314468+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:05:18.420756+08:00","text":"而且我們再做法律的比較，\n我們看到總統還有副總統選舉罷免法，就明確地規定候選人的選舉連署，就是要檢附國民身分\n證影印本，所以說，如果沒有辦法明確辨認連署人的身分，是不是連署人不能計入，必須刪除\n？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-14T16:05:18.420756+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:05:22.527045+08:00","text":"所以我們認為，既然總統、副總統的選舉罷免法有這樣的規定，為何其他公職人員的選舉罷\n免就不用？","quality":0.024},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-14T16:05:22.527045+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:05:26.633333+08:00","text":"為什麼總統就享有這樣特別的權力，在連署的時候，法規規定他們要檢具身分證影\n印本，其他公職人員在受罷免的時候就不用，這是一個法律漏洞，我們必須把它加以調整。","quality":0.057},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-14T16:05:26.633333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:05:30.739622+08:00","text":"我\n協 32\n想在這一次的修法，我們真的可以避免因為惡意罷免而浪費許多的社會資源，我們也可以讓更\n多優秀的公職人員，為國家、為社會、為我們人民做全心全力服務的工作，避免遭受這些惡意\n的罷免，我想這也是民眾的一個損失。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-11-14T16:05:30.739622+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:05:34.845910+08:00","text":"所以我們希望所有的公職人員在選舉、罷免過程的制度\n設計，都要有相同的制度設計，而不要有不一樣的情況，以上，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:05:34.845910+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:05:38.952199+08:00","text":"謝謝林思銘書記長的發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:05:38.952199+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:05:43.058488+08:00","text":"我們跟黨團幹部報告一下，第一輪各黨團幹部發言完畢，我們再\n請列席的行政首長來說明之後，再進入第二輪，這樣的話會比較順暢，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:05:43.058488+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:05:47.164776+08:00","text":"第一輪先請各\n位黨團幹部，接著請蔡易餘書記長，請發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T16:05:47.164776+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:05:51.271065+08:00","text":"好，謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T16:05:51.271065+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:05:55.377353+08:00","text":"我們在討論罷免法這一次的修法，主要是國民黨的版本，大家都是針\n對要附上連署人的國民身分證正反面影本。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T16:05:55.377353+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:05:59.483642+08:00","text":"如果要附上正反面影本，基本上就是增加了一個難\n度，就是去連署的人，他必須同時身上帶有身分證正反面影本，我們如果來自鄉下，你就知道\n，事實上很多老人家，他是不會把身分證帶在身上的，身上可能沒有帶東西，當他去連署的時\n候，他沒有身分證的話，表示他單純簽名、單純填具他的資料還不夠，他必須要再返回去拿身\n分證，所以我們會從這樣去說，基本上你這樣的一個門檻就是增加連署的難度，而且這個難度\n就會直接影響到未來罷免案的成立。","quality":0.043},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T16:05:59.483642+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:06:03.589930+08:00","text":"以目前我們雖然有多次的罷免經驗，事實上也是有成立的\n，也有不成立的，所以看起來目前這個門檻就是非常地衡平，也不是每一案都會成立，既然這\n樣的話我們就保留現在的制度，讓人民罷免的權利可以繼續存在。","quality":0.148},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T16:06:03.589930+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:06:07.696219+08:00","text":"我想經過基隆這一次罷免的\n狀況後，民進黨黨主席右昌主席也說現在民進黨沒有……喔，我們秘書長，他也曾經是黨主席\n，曾經是代理黨主席，曾經有做過……","quality":0.049},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T16:06:07.696219+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:06:11.802507+08:00","text":"秘書長也說過，現在民進黨也沒有要推動所謂的大罷免，在這樣的一個前提之下，我\n認為我們何必在這個時候，大家正在討論總預算，而且我們要討論一些人事權的時候，何必把\n罷免權、把人民這樣的一個最基礎的權利要在現在處理？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T16:06:11.802507+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:06:15.908796+08:00","text":"真的是不急。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T16:06:15.908796+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:06:20.015085+08:00","text":"我再舉一個，過去我們\n民進黨在公投連署的時候，我們曾經有提案說要附身分證的影本，當時國民黨的主席是江啟臣\n，他也是很清楚地去說，這樣的話，第一個、侵害隱私；第二個、提高連署的難度。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T16:06:20.015085+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:06:24.121373+08:00","text":"所以我會\n覺得，尤其是現在我們知道整個詐騙的狀況，你把身分證正反面的影本提出來，對於人民的心\n理壓力是很大的，因為現在詐騙集團最主要都是叫你要交出存摺、交出你的身分證，壓力是很\n大的，所以人民不想把身分證交給其他人，這個我們必須要合理性地思考這件事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T16:06:24.121373+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:06:28.227662+08:00","text":"大家既然不\n要，那我們又要叫他交出身分證正反面的影本，等於是他就不要去罷免了，他乾脆就不要了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T16:06:28.227662+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:06:32.333950+08:00","text":"我覺得這樣的修法事實上比罷免門檻提高還要嚴苛，因為他連最基本的成案都會產生困難。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-11-14T16:06:32.333950+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:06:36.440239+08:00","text":"基\n於這樣的原因，我們還是具體建議，請國民黨或是民眾黨對於這樣的選罷法的修法，不要在現\n在處理，先把這個權利繼續保留給人民。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:06:36.440239+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:06:40.546527+08:00","text":"好，謝謝蔡易餘書記長的發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:06:40.546527+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:06:44.652816+08:00","text":"接下來請台灣民眾黨發言，請內政部劉部長準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:06:44.652816+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:06:48.759104+08:00","text":"台灣民眾\n黨請發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2024-11-14T16:06:48.759104+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:06:52.865393+08:00","text":"選舉跟罷免是公民行使他的公民權，這當然都是很重要的，但是我們選舉很困難，罷\n免太容易，選舉需要身分證，為什麼罷免就不需要身分證？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2024-11-14T16:06:52.865393+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:06:56.971682+08:00","text":"其實這個又不合理。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2024-11-14T16:06:56.971682+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:07:01.077970+08:00","text":"事實上現在的\n協 33\n罷免也的確在實務上面已經成為政黨仇恨鬥爭的工具，不是人民真正在行使他的公民權，所以\n本黨同意而且支持提高連署的程序，嚴格的程序，這個不是嚴格，這只是恢復到正常而已，以\n上。","quality":0.024},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:07:01.077970+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:07:05.184259+08:00","text":"好，謝謝台灣民眾黨吳春城副總召的發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:07:05.184259+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:07:09.290547+08:00","text":"接下來我們請劉部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-11-14T16:07:09.290547+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:07:13.396836+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，各位黨團幹部，大家好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-11-14T16:07:13.396836+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:07:17.503124+08:00","text":"我先來講有關於剛剛國民黨林思銘委員所提到的\n連署，他有講到三個法案，第一個、總統的選罷法裡面所謂公民連署的規範是要涉及總統、副\n總統候選人資格的取得，跟罷免沒有直接相關。","quality":0.052},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-11-14T16:07:17.503124+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:07:21.609413+08:00","text":"再來，公投法的話是針對事情、針對公共政策\n事項的成立。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-11-14T16:07:21.609413+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:07:25.715701+08:00","text":"在公職選罷法裡面，當然就是針對具有公職身分的人的去留，是針對有沒有要被\n罷免掉提出來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-11-14T16:07:25.715701+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:07:29.821990+08:00","text":"所以三個其實是不同的立法考量，在公投法跟公職選罷法裡面，目前為止沒有\n檢附的必要，同時，我們如果回到公職選罷法的規範，其實從 80 年開始修正到去年 112 年 6 月\n9 號，我們已經修正了第七十六條，明定中選會電子系統僅供罷免領銜人徵求連署之用，這個可\n以回應在傅崐萁委員等提案內容之一的部分。","quality":0.033},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-11-14T16:07:29.821990+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:07:33.928279+08:00","text":"至於兩位委員領銜提案的部分，我們的回應是這樣，第一個，在增列罷免提案跟連署人應該\n附身分證影本之必要性的影響，剛剛委員有提到，現在因為詐騙橫行或者是現在因為國民身分\n證已經有牽涉到個資法第十五條的規定，必須要符合一、執行法定職務之必要範圍內；二、經\n過當事人同意；三、對當事人權益無侵害等各個情形，始得為之。","quality":0.029},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-11-14T16:07:33.928279+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:07:38.034567+08:00","text":"所以要把身分證正面，同時\n反面也必須要影印的話，恐怕會影響到要參與罷免連署人的意願。","quality":0.158},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-11-14T16:07:38.034567+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:07:42.140856+08:00","text":"這個部分我們也一再跟很多\n委員來解釋，第一個，國民身分證的正面有姓名、出生年月日、統一編號；背面還有父母、配\n偶、住址等這些都是屬於個資保護法第二條第一款規定的部分，所以如果提案罷免連署要附身\n分證影本的話，真的是會影響到提案跟連署的意願，這是第一個。","quality":0.214},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-11-14T16:07:42.140856+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:07:46.247144+08:00","text":"第二項的部分就是說，如果\n增列填寫國民身分證的發證日期，恐怕在選務機關上面也會造成困擾，第一個，因為國民身分\n證除了發證以外，同時可以補證，也可以再修正，日期如果不同的話，在連署的選務上面的確\n認會產生變動，會增加再查核，也就是連署當中查核的一些困擾。","quality":0.018},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-11-14T16:07:46.247144+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:07:50.353433+08:00","text":"當然，第三點我剛剛有提到\n，112 年 6 月 9 號的時候我們已經修正了公職選罷法第七十六條，明定中選會的電子系統僅供罷\n免連署領銜人徵求連署之用，而不是回復在電子系統的提議階段。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-11-14T16:07:50.353433+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:07:54.459721+08:00","text":"以上我們會認為是不是各個委員的說法我們都可以認同，但是在目前這樣的時刻裡面，提到\n修法的部分，真的是會增加未來在選務機關上面，或者是增加公民投票權，還有罷免權為人民\n基本權利的保障反而會降低，這是我們簡單的報告，謝謝各位。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:07:54.459721+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:07:58.566010+08:00","text":"謝謝內政部劉部長的發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:07:58.566010+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:08:02.672299+08:00","text":"接下來請中選會李主委發言，請司法院準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2024-11-14T16:08:02.672299+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:08:06.778587+08:00","text":"謝謝主席、各黨團的幹部，各位先進，大家晚安。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2024-11-14T16:08:06.778587+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:08:10.884876+08:00","text":"中選會基本上就這個案子，我\n們跟法律的主管機關內政部的意見是一致的，我特別要再做一個補充，罷免跟選舉、創制、複\n決一樣都是憲法所保障的公民權，既然是受到憲法的最高保障，有關於任何公民權法制的建立\n或者是檢討，應該都站在保護的出發點來衡量，這是第一點要跟各位做說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2024-11-14T16:08:10.884876+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:08:14.991164+08:00","text":"第二點，在委員的提案裡面，首先第一個就是說，在連署甚至包括提議的階段都要附上身分\n協 34\n證，考慮的兩個面向，一個就連署人來講，他很可能會因為害怕他的個資被洩漏，因為現在詐\n騙集團的詐騙手段裡面很重要的一個環節，就是先取得個資，所以他會擔心他的個資被竊取了\n、被洩漏了，因此會影響到他連署的意願，這對於罷免權的行使來講，當然是增加一點困難，\n這是第一點；就另外一點來講，社會上很多人也許啦！","quality":0.023},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2024-11-14T16:08:14.991164+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:08:19.097453+08:00","text":"因為這些詐騙集團無孔不入，而且任何\n方式他都不會放棄，所以他也很可能藉由所謂的罷免提議也好，連署也好，來騙取民眾的個資\n，這樣會不會助長詐騙的盛行，這一點也是我們必須要考量的重點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2024-11-14T16:08:19.097453+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:08:23.203741+08:00","text":"第二點，所謂填具身分證\n的發證日期，這點剛剛劉部長也說明過了，因為他簽署連署之後，如果身分證遺失或者是毀損\n，有發生換發或者是補發的情況，日期就不一樣了，如果因為這種日期不一樣的情形而被刪除\n的話，這對於連署人來講也是不公平的，所以這一點我們也希望大家能夠予以斟酌。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2024-11-14T16:08:23.203741+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:08:27.310030+08:00","text":"至於第七十六條的部分，在去年 6 月選罷法修正的時候，電子系統在提議階段的適用已經刪\n除了，所以現在適不適合再把它放回去？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2024-11-14T16:08:27.310030+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:08:31.416318+08:00","text":"如果放回去的話，是不是會助長罷免案氾濫提出？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2024-11-14T16:08:31.416318+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:08:35.522607+08:00","text":"這\n一點也請各位黨團幹部能夠予以斟酌。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2024-11-14T16:08:35.522607+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:08:39.628896+08:00","text":"總而言之，我們的立場跟法律的主管機關內政部的立場是一致的，我們認為這個修正必須要\n非常地審慎，尤其是要著重在保障憲法所保護的公民權。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2024-11-14T16:08:39.628896+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:08:43.735184+08:00","text":"以上報告，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:08:43.735184+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:08:47.841473+08:00","text":"謝謝中選會李主委的說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:08:47.841473+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:08:51.947761+08:00","text":"接下來請司法院周廳長發言，法務部請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:08:51.947761+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:08:56.054050+08:00","text":"周廳長玟芳：謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:08:56.054050+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:09:00.160338+08:00","text":"院長、各位委員，司法院報告，第一點，這兩部修正草案都是關於罷免程序事\n項的增訂，因為涉及選舉政策的決定，因此本院尊重主責機關還有大院職權的行使。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:09:00.160338+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:09:04.266627+08:00","text":"至於細節\n的部分，我們的意見如同今年 10 月 23 號朝野黨團協商所提出的書面報告。以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:09:04.266627+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:09:08.372915+08:00","text":"謝謝周廳長，周廳長就是完全尊重。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:09:08.372915+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:09:12.479204+08:00","text":"接下來我們請法務部廖參事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:09:12.479204+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:09:16.585493+08:00","text":"廖參事江憲：院長、各位委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:09:16.585493+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:09:20.691781+08:00","text":"關於這一次草案，我們就增訂第九十八條之二的部分分兩點提出意\n見，供各位參酌，第一個部分就是，第九十八條之二規範的行為，就是利用他人個人資料，未\n經同意偽造、假冒提議連署者。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:09:20.691781+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:09:24.798070+08:00","text":"這一類的行為在現行的法制上，可以適用刑法第兩百一十條的\n偽造私文書罪，以及個資法第四十一條的非法處理、利用個人資料罪來處斷，這兩個罪的法定\n刑度比我們草案規定的都來得重，這個部分請委員可以斟酌一下本條是不是有必要制定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:09:24.798070+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:09:28.904358+08:00","text":"至於\n在管理實務上，是不是需要再增訂這樣一個特別刑責條款？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:09:28.904358+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:09:33.010647+08:00","text":"這個部分我們就尊重主管機關的意\n見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:09:33.010647+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:09:37.116935+08:00","text":"另外一個部分就是草案規範的行為型態，也有一部分的意見提供給各位參考。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:09:37.116935+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:09:41.223224+08:00","text":"我們的條文規\n定是未經同意偽造，偽造的概念本質上就包含了未經同意的這個概念在裡面。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:09:41.223224+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:09:45.329512+08:00","text":"另外，因為罷免\n的提議跟連署都是屬於要式行為，都必須要親自簽名蓋章，所以如果有條文所稱的未經同意假\n冒提議跟連署，也會附隨偽造的問題，所以這個構成要件的行為型態，如果這一條有要增訂的\n話，也請各位委員能夠一併予以釐清。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:09:45.329512+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:09:49.435801+08:00","text":"以上報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:09:49.435801+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:09:53.542090+08:00","text":"謝謝法務部廖參事的報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:09:53.542090+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:09:57.648378+08:00","text":"接下來，吳思瑤幹事長請發言。協 35","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:09:57.648378+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:10:01.754667+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:10:01.754667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:10:05.860955+08:00","text":"今天終於進入這個深水區，其實很多公民朋友最關切的就是朝野協商當中\n的選罷法，因為這事涉到如同剛剛中選會李進勇主委所說的，憲法保障珍貴的人民公民權，所\n以不管是立法者或是 policy maker 即行政部門的政策制定者，都要站在保護人民珍貴的憲法賦權\n的角度來切入，而不是用阻卻、剝奪或沒收的角度。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:10:05.860955+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:10:09.967244+08:00","text":"所以剛剛從中選會也好、主管機關內政部也好，都站在非常反對的立場來面對現在在野黨提\n出來的修法，主管部會、行政部門的意見非常的明確；民進黨黨團的意見也同樣非常的明確，\n如果今天的修法過了，或者是今天協商結束很快的就用院會……會不會明天就處理了，我們希\n望不要！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:10:09.967244+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:10:14.073532+08:00","text":"這樣子的話，修過的法增加罷免門檻，要檢附身分證正反影本加上發證日期，誰最開\n心？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:10:14.073532+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:10:18.179821+08:00","text":"就是詐騙集團最開心！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:10:18.179821+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:10:22.286109+08:00","text":"誰最開心？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:10:22.286109+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:10:26.392398+08:00","text":"那些表現不適任的地方首長或是民代可能也會開心！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:10:26.392398+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:10:30.498687+08:00","text":"因\n為它設下了罷免的層層難關。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:10:30.498687+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:10:34.604975+08:00","text":"有委員會提到總統、副總統選舉罷免法當初也是要求要有身分證，但是大家想想，總統、副\n總統選舉罷免法當初是 1995 年訂定的，依 1995 年的時空背景，那個時候連個資保護法都沒有\n，那個時候對於個人資訊保護的概念，甚至是詐騙集團的猖獗，完全不可同日而語！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:10:34.604975+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:10:38.711264+08:00","text":"所以如果\n要拿總統、副總統選罷法來做一個類比，合理化今天沒收、閹割了人民珍貴的罷免權限行使，\n我想這樣的比喻是不倫不類的！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:10:38.711264+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:10:42.817552+08:00","text":"今天民眾黨的總召離開了，黃總召不在，但我想 2013 年黃國昌說的那一段話，大家有必要在\n今天的朝野協商大家來檢視。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:10:42.817552+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:10:46.923841+08:00","text":"過去黃國昌就說：有一群立委未來會做很可怕的事，他在立法院\n會提案，進一步讓罷免的程序變得複雜，要求每個提議人跟連署人把身分證正反影本交出來，\n這是什麼？","quality":0.029},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:10:46.923841+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:10:51.030129+08:00","text":"就是這些立委要繼續讓你行使直接民權的路變得很困難。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:10:51.030129+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:10:55.136418+08:00","text":"這是 2013 的黃國昌總召，\n但他今天……好像上次林思銘委員召集的選罷法黨團協商黃總召也不在，今天韓國瑜院長的協\n商他也不在，我想黃國昌總召是不是自己也心知肚明，沒收人民的民權！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:10:55.136418+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:10:59.242706+08:00","text":"他不想讓自己成為那\n個可怕的立委，如果是這樣的話，我們就好好來審思，這樣子的提案修正真的不宜！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:10:59.242706+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:11:03.348995+08:00","text":"最終，我也要誠懇地跟主席報告，這幾年來選罷法的重大修正審議有三次，我從最遠的講過\n來，第一次是 2015 年 1 月 22 號修選罷法，那時候修的重點是政黨補助門檻從 5%下降到 3.5%，\n這對於政黨的利益、權益非常重要，所以那一次的修法陳其邁召集委員在內政委員會審了三次\n，後來沒有結論，提交到院會層級，也就是現在韓院長主持的這個 level 的協商，也進行了兩次\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:11:03.348995+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:11:07.455284+08:00","text":"2016 年 11 月 29 號選罷法的修正，那個時候就是時代力量的黃國昌提議還權於民，罷免的門\n檻不需要門檻，那一次的討論是民進黨最後解救了黃國昌，那一次因為涉及罷免門檻非常審慎\n，因為是珍貴的憲法民權，陳其邁同樣擔任內政委員會的召集委員，他在內政委員會審查了五\n次，後來沒有共識，提交院長層級的朝野協商兩次。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:11:07.455284+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:11:11.561572+08:00","text":"最近一次的選罷法修正是 2023（去）年 5 月 26 日，針對候選人的排黑條款，這對於每個從事\n公職的人非常重要，訂定排黑條款那一次的修正更審慎，內政委員會的召集委員是陳玉珍，陳\n玉珍委員那個時候，為了選罷法的修正，他召集內政委員會的開會次數是 7 次，跟現在他處理\n財劃法 3 分鐘，儼然是完全不同的陳玉珍，為了修選罷法，去年的陳玉珍在內政委員會審了 7\n協 36\n次，提交到院長協商 2 次。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:11:11.561572+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:11:15.667861+08:00","text":"我用這樣的一個議事在處理，過去到現在的立法院面對憲法賦予人\n民珍貴的罷免權利，都要非常的審慎，我們要站在保護人民權利的角度，而不是沒收人民的角\n度。","quality":0.045},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:11:15.667861+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:11:19.774149+08:00","text":"所以我也請求，這麼重要的、跟人民權利直接相關的議案，我們內政委員會已經快轉、沒有\n討論了，我也希望剛剛花了一點時間，跟在座的各位以及韓院長說明，是不是能夠讓大家多討\n論、多思考選罷法？","quality":0.012},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:11:19.774149+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:11:23.880438+08:00","text":"真的不要很急切的，大家都在看立法院是在保護人民的權利還是戕害人民\n的權利，好嗎？","quality":0.028},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-11-14T16:11:23.880438+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:11:27.986726+08:00","text":"我真的不希望今天協商完沒有共識，就循議事程序去表決，我再次呼籲萬萬不\n可，謝謝。","quality":0.057},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:11:27.986726+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:11:32.093015+08:00","text":"謝謝吳思瑤幹事長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:11:32.093015+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:11:36.199303+08:00","text":"接下來，國民黨團王鴻薇首席副書記長請發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:11:36.199303+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:11:40.305592+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我想選罷法的討論其實已經非常多了，我們在委員會裡面也做過選罷法的\n協商，我們都會提到過去。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:11:40.305592+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:11:44.411881+08:00","text":"譬如說，剛才提到過去在公投法裡面，提到要附身分證影本，當時\n國民黨有一些反對的意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:11:44.411881+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:11:48.518169+08:00","text":"我想時空環境有一些變化，尤其在這一次謝國樑市長的罷免案之後\n，其實很多人確實在省思，我們是不是花了非常多的社會成本在裡面？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:11:48.518169+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:11:52.624458+08:00","text":"會不會勞民傷財？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:11:52.624458+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:11:56.730746+08:00","text":"剛才\n也提到其實過去歷次很多的罷免，有的成功、有的失敗，但是大家會回頭去省思，到底我們頻\n繁的罷免，對於社會或者是對於民主政治的意義是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:11:56.730746+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:12:00.837035+08:00","text":"像最近羅智強委員所主持的新智庫也\n做了一個民調，最新的民調顯示有將近六成的民眾事實上並不支持現行選罷法裡面，有關於罷\n免的一些設計或者制度。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:12:00.837035+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:12:04.943323+08:00","text":"所以我們是不是可以考慮再做選罷法的一些修正？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:12:04.943323+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:12:09.049612+08:00","text":"我當然知道這一段時間，民進黨團當然是\n極力反對，你可以看到，包含我們今天在座的，不管是中選會、內政部、法務部、司法院，就\n如同剛才吳思瑤幹事長講的，統統反對，那當然反對啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:12:09.049612+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:12:13.155900+08:00","text":"其實現在以執政黨來說，反對選罷法\n的修正已經非常非常的明確了，但是我想請問一下，在整個過程裡面，你說今天如果附身分證\n影本就是阻卻和剝奪大家罷免的權利、公民行使其公民的權利，當然我們也都數度提到我們現\n在在總統跟副總統連署的部分，也是有身分證影本，剛才吳思瑤幹事長提到這是 1995 年，多年\n之前，但是它也行之多年，所以我不曉得今天民進黨是不是要告訴我們，他們準備修總統跟副\n總統的選罷法了呢？","quality":0.017},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:12:13.155900+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:12:17.262189+08:00","text":"要把它全部都拿掉了呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:12:17.262189+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:12:21.368478+08:00","text":"我不曉得你們是不是有這樣的一個暗示或者是有\n這樣的意思。","quality":0.038},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:12:21.368478+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:12:25.474766+08:00","text":"至於再講到所謂的詐騙，沒錯，我們現在的詐騙確實非常非常的猖獗！","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:12:25.474766+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:12:29.581055+08:00","text":"我想請問一下，我們\n現在被詐騙這麼多人、被詐騙這麼多錢，請問他們統統都是去連署了總統跟副總統的選舉嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:12:29.581055+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:12:33.687343+08:00","text":"很有限吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:12:33.687343+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:12:37.793632+08:00","text":"所以怎麼會把詐騙的問題去牽扯到不管是總統或副總統連署裡面，就是你去提供身\n分證影本而造成現在的詐騙呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:12:37.793632+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:12:41.899920+08:00","text":"你自己出去外面說說看，大家能不能相信啊！","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:12:41.899920+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:12:46.006209+08:00","text":"這個執政政府怎\n麼可以甩鍋到這種地步啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:12:46.006209+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:12:50.112498+08:00","text":"請問一下，能夠連署的到底有多少人？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:12:50.112498+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:12:54.218786+08:00","text":"而現在被詐騙的人數又是多\n少、案件又是多少？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:12:54.218786+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:12:58.325075+08:00","text":"所以你這樣子扯，一般的民眾真的聽不下去。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:12:58.325075+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:13:02.431363+08:00","text":"講到修法的部分，我們還是會希望能夠在整個選罷法相關的規定裡面去彌補或者杜絕過去的\n一些流弊，過去確實有出現死人連署，然後我們也很清楚地知道，很多的罷免案其實是很多的\n協 37\n樁腳或者是一些工會，可能一些工會的名單就有身分證相關的字號，所以就直接抄嘛！","quality":0.044},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:13:02.431363+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:13:06.537652+08:00","text":"而其結\n果也增加選務工作後面查核的相關成本。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:13:06.537652+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:13:10.643940+08:00","text":"因此，我們這次提出選罷法，其實我覺得是很合理的\n，我們衡諸過去整個罷免案所產生的流弊，以及現在民眾也普遍感受到頻繁的罷免，它是不是\n符合民眾的需要？","quality":0.03},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:13:10.643940+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:13:14.750229+08:00","text":"民眾會不會覺得這是一個勞民傷財的事情？","quality":0.222},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:13:14.750229+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:13:18.856517+08:00","text":"但是我們仍然保留公民選擇的權\n利，大家都知道，其實要罷免，基本上如果你認為這樣的公職人員是應該被罷免掉的，那麼他\n也會願意拿出身分證影本，就如同在總統跟副總統的連署裡面，這個人也認為他應該去參與總\n統跟副總統的選舉時，他也可以接受提供身分證影本。","quality":0.152},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:13:18.856517+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:13:22.962806+08:00","text":"我一直在講，這個行之多年，過去都沒有問題，為什麼在罷免就出現了這麼大的問題呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:13:22.962806+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:13:27.069095+08:00","text":"更\n不要說我們在這一次裡面，包括身分證影本還有它的發證日期。","quality":0.037},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:13:27.069095+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:13:31.175383+08:00","text":"我剛才不是講嗎，其實有些時\n空環境的改變，可能改變最快的是包含吳秉叡委員還有在座的蔡易餘書記長，他們今年 4 月有\n共提的版本，是發證的日期，他們把它撤案了，我們也尊重。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:13:31.175383+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:13:35.281672+08:00","text":"包含吳秉叡委員最近也撤案一個\n公投法，也是發證日期，我們也尊重，讓他撤案，就是他可能覺得時空環境變了，可能幾個月\n前他覺得應該要這樣子，然後連署的民進黨委員也很多，可是也許過了幾個月，半年不到，他\n就覺得這樣子的方式不好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:13:35.281672+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:13:39.387960+08:00","text":"當然我們大家都知道，就是因為要配合執政黨的政策嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:13:39.387960+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:13:43.494249+08:00","text":"但是無論\n如何必須要講的，我們朝野協商是尊重大家政黨發表意見，然後做一些相關的討論。","quality":0.105},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:13:43.494249+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:13:47.600537+08:00","text":"但是，我\n覺得不管是之前調查委員會的成立也好，或者今天選罷法的修正也好，不要變成一定要聽從某\n一個政黨的意見，我們到院會去處理，也是一個完全合法、合乎程序的議事處理，不要把它變\n成只要做議事處理，它好像就是沒有討論，完全不是這麼回事。","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-14T16:13:47.600537+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:13:51.706826+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:13:51.706826+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:13:55.813114+08:00","text":"接下來台灣民眾黨要二次發言嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:13:55.813114+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:13:59.919403+08:00","text":"請麥玉珍委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-14T16:13:59.919403+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:14:04.025692+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-14T16:14:04.025692+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:14:08.131980+08:00","text":"剛才聽了，因為我們是內政委員，所以我也經歷了選罷法的法案過程，因\n此我要講幾個我個人看到的，我覺得要跟大家講一下。","quality":0.059},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-14T16:14:08.131980+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:14:12.238269+08:00","text":"剛才我們都說憲法保障人民的權利，對\n不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-14T16:14:12.238269+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:14:16.344557+08:00","text":"所以人民的權利除了選舉的權利，選罷法是不是也是人民的權利？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-14T16:14:16.344557+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:14:20.450846+08:00","text":"所以我們要用人民的\n權利，就是用身分證去選出來，每一個人、每一票都是人民信任的票，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-14T16:14:20.450846+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:14:24.557134+08:00","text":"但是我們要去\n罷免的時候，也是同樣要這樣子，對選舉的人才公平，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-14T16:14:24.557134+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:14:28.663423+08:00","text":"我覺得我們要求連署要嚴謹，\n是因為我們覺得對人民選出來的人，就是要有一個保障跟交代，我們對人民要有交代，好不容\n易選出來，就算我們要提舊事，當初我們有很多新住民因為對院長講的話有誤解，就是側翼一\n直在剪，讓我們對院長誤解，對不對？","quality":0.029},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-14T16:14:28.663423+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:14:32.769711+08:00","text":"也是因為這樣子才去做這件事情，我覺得就是因為不嚴\n謹，所以我們希望要嚴謹。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-14T16:14:32.769711+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:14:36.876000+08:00","text":"第二個，講的都是說不要講別人的過去，我們現在……但是又要拿我們的黃總召來當模範，\n如果他來當模範，現在他講他想要做的，大家為什麼不聽他的，對不對？","quality":0.206},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-14T16:14:36.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T16:18:26.484000+08:00","text":"不是這樣子的，不要\n再一直……現在就是要講我們怎麼樣去討論、達成共識，不要一直要拿別人的，好的自己留著\n用，如果覺得好用就自己留著用，不要說別人的不好，還是自己的比較好。","quality":0.356},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-14T16:18:26.484000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:18:32.768000+08:00","text":"還有第三，大法官是人民選出來的嗎？","quality":0.067},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-14T16:18:32.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T16:18:38.592000+08:00","text":"我們所有立法院的立法，交到大法官那一邊，大法官\n釋憲說這個法是怎麼樣，就否決了。","quality":0.343},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-14T16:18:38.592000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:19:02.109000+08:00","text":"我覺得我們立法院是人民選出來的，大家要尊重，選舉也\n要有身分證才能去選舉，沒有身分證也沒辦法去選，所以罷免也是人民的權利，我們也是要有\n協 38\n身分證才能去罷免，我覺得這樣子才是公平。","quality":0.113},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-14T16:19:02.109000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:19:25.626000+08:00","text":"不要讓我們覺得什麼都是詐騙集團，現在詐騙集\n團都不是我們要去選舉的，雖然有設立打詐中心，但是越打越詐，所以也是很多人民被騙，剛\n剛我才去質詢而已，比特幣的部分，我們臺灣有 80%被騙拿不回來，所以這個都是我們要從不\n同的層面去把關。","quality":0.059},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-11-14T16:19:25.626000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:19:49.143000+08:00","text":"所以希望我們要嚴謹連署，謝謝。","quality":0.154},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:19:49.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T16:19:49.644000+08:00","text":"謝謝麥玉珍委員的發言。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:19:49.644000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:20:30.596667+08:00","text":"報告各位黨團幹部，現在顯然我們沒辦法達到共識，我現在做兩點重要的宣告，請大家聽一\n下。","quality":0.158},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:20:30.596667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:21:11.549333+08:00","text":"一、本案選罷法既然沒有共識，我們大家就繼續溝通。","quality":0.19},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:21:11.549333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:21:52.502000+08:00","text":"二、現在接近 6 點，我跟大家報告\n一下，下禮拜我們要擇期協商延會事宜，還有附屬單位預算的密集協商，是不是我們今天就先\n到此為止，下週我們再發文，繼續來進行相關的協商？","quality":0.183},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:21:52.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T16:21:59.306000+08:00","text":"請問各位黨團幹部有意見嗎？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:21:59.306000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T16:23:44.261000+08:00","text":"好，沒有\n意見，非常感謝各位行政首長的列席，非常感謝大家！","quality":0.292},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:23:44.261000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T16:23:44.361000+08:00","text":"我們現在散會。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T16:23:57.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T16:25:13.729000+08:00","text":"散會（18 時 1 分）","quality":0.5}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}