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有請兩位部長 莊部長跟邱部長莊部長跟邱部長請"},{"start":12.947,"end":25.133,"text":"莊部長我先讓你看一下照片這張照片是放在海關裡頭滿坑滿谷的這一個加熱菸你自己有沒有去看過總共在海關沒收的這一個加熱菸總共有34萬條之多依照5月的統計已經有442萬.54萬包了"},{"start":35.517,"end":57.439,"text":"這滿山滿谷的情況底下還有一部分是已經交給地方政府喔有14萬喔放在海關裡頭是20萬喔過期的也銷毀了11萬條喔你看看這麼多的情況底下結果呢事情已經變成是財政部的事情了剛剛有委員說啊如果半年內沒有通過的話菸酒公司的董事長要下台"},{"start":57.739,"end":76.898,"text":"但是沒有讓他通過的是你右邊那一位啊是你左邊那一位邱部長啊這魏吳部可以主導這個菸酒公司董事長下台這真是笑話另外一個部分這還有什麼後遺症連日本啊都質疑台灣的法規啊會阻礙日客來台啊就因為江苑院的審查延期"},{"start":78.117,"end":99.873,"text":"因為三月份的時候衛福部還說連持有都要罰就像毒品一樣到底家庭合不合法你是誘人犯罪嗎政府誘人犯罪嗎違反信賴保護原則嗎基本的法律素養會沒有嗎還是帶墮審查全部都卡在衛福部我們心頭非常清楚"},{"start":101.052,"end":115.583,"text":"部長你也應該希望多一點稅收的來源吧剛剛賴昭偉就說稅差損就差了100億嘛長照3.0需不需要稅收的來源需不需要邱部長有需要嗎"},{"start":118.459,"end":146.117,"text":"3.0欸一個月過去一個月補助一萬接下來一個月要補助一萬五所需要的稅金來源要更多結果你這個稅差損就差了一百億部長我們的這個審查標準有其他的比其他的國家還原嗎還是因為人為的因素上一屆的委員剛卸任的這屆委員對外就放出風聲在這一屆裡頭不可能通過而通過了這一屆的委員當中呢到現在還沒有開會審查"},{"start":147.978,"end":175.854,"text":"如果說衛福部有這麼大的意見當初院版就不應該提出就不應該讓他通過不是嗎部長院版裡面當然就是有就是有設立就是說三讀的時候當然那個法案就有審查的辦法那這個辦法裡面也列出了標準那這兩任期那個時候也聘請了委員任期是兩年嘛那現在到期了我們現在也換了新的委員兩年 年一線都沒有通過"},{"start":177.555,"end":189.527,"text":"審查標準有別人家演嗎你就比較其他國家就好了嘛你不要制定一個自己的標準嘛很多國家都已經合法化那個要要去抄也很容易抄好不好有需要搞成這麼久嗎"},{"start":192.998,"end":221.79,"text":"跟委員報告目前全球只有兩個國家在審查一個是美國一個是台灣其他的國家是沒有審查直接合併就可以上市對一般的那沒有審查也會有一個標準嘛那我們標準為什麼這麼嚴我們審查為什麼這麼嚴我們為什麼拖了兩年多為什麼十家沒有一個通過開了五十幾次會都沒有通過為什麼我們就是依據美國FDA的一個上市前審查的一個標準來做相關的審查作業所以說我們的標準是依照美國是"},{"start":222.29,"end":237.763,"text":"完全一樣口味都相同幾乎都相同幾乎都相同那我們拿回來的這些加熱煙有沒有美國煙目前在美國也還沒有上市那目前這些煙是從哪邊來他們在全球有各地方不同的"},{"start":239.809,"end":262.743,"text":"不同的國家不同的國家那我們既然已經合法化了我們難道不能一定要比照美國的標準是不是你現在意思是這樣嗎我們按照那個規定跟流程還有相關業者需要準備的相關的一些資料來做審查這業者會不清楚嗎業者都清楚我們也說過很多次的說明會說過很多次的說明會如果是標準的問題那你就把標準公布出來嘛對啊"},{"start":264.099,"end":292.142,"text":"那你就把標準給我們委員會到底問題出在哪裡到底是行政怠惰還是標準過嚴還是業者不從我們把這整個過程只要依法能夠公告的我們一定我們就來報告委員會就從剛剛那個委員趕快啦那五十幾次會議會議紀錄給我們啊讓我們清楚知道到底什麼原因嘛可以嗎好的我們會把那個依法可以公告送給大家該解決的問題部長你還是要解決啦拖了不是辦法啦你看海關放了三十四萬條在這邊啊"},{"start":295.184,"end":306.913,"text":"對基如山啦其實工作同仁都是依法在辦依法依規定可以搞了兩年多好 接下來我問一下那個莊部長莊部長我讓你看一下數字"},{"start":313.084,"end":332.455,"text":"這個中國啤酒的問題經濟部在4月28號的時候就已經對中國啤酒的這個傾銷造成台灣產業已經造成傷害了根據最新的統計中國啤酒的市佔率在今年的第一季已經來到36%你知道台啤目前的市佔率有多少嗎"},{"start":333.766,"end":359.556,"text":"我知道台啤的市占率現在在下降當中原來都是超過五成以上的現在也在下降對 目前一直下降當中已經下降到四成點九一跟中國進來的36相差不遠比較於去年這一個還當了6%已經接近死亡交叉了恐怕在一年之內就會被中國啤酒給超越了"},{"start":360.736,"end":389.506,"text":"在這種情況底下我們現在要可能會祭出臨時反請銷稅嘛對不對要70天之內對不對對 是的我們這個部分因為經濟部已經在剛剛如同委員說在4月30完成初步的產業損害調查那麼70天以內我們要完成所謂的請銷初步調查而且我們還會送關稅稅率審議委員會小組所以最晚我們在7月9號之前就會去公告"},{"start":390.386,"end":400.453,"text":"7月9號之前就會公布公告初步的一個調查結果7月9號之前會公布是否會在課徵臨時稅臨時課徵反省銷稅是的是7月9號之前臨時反省銷稅7月9號之前它裡頭有一個條款說有必要的時候延後30天應該不會延後了吧"},{"start":409.399,"end":421.405,"text":"呃這個部分我們的關務署一直非常積極而且積極的在進行當中然後會所以不會延後一起做一起依照這個期限來做不會再延後不會再延後好不會再延後70天內7月9號好那你知道喔"},{"start":425.187,"end":447.301,"text":"現階段他們在這個比較去年五月多進來59% 接近六成那為什麼會多進來呢你去看右邊這一張表格價格調漲通知 請提前囤貨看到沒有雪山 百威 Corona Bar 等等而且是從七月一號開始他們要全面調漲價格請把握補貨機會搶購現價庫存看到沒有 這叫囤貨"},{"start":455.966,"end":481.893,"text":"進口越多 囤貨越多對台灣的這個啤酒產業者傷害越大我就要問啊這個科增這個依照平衡稅及反請銷稅科增實施辦法第25條之一第二項第二款科增臨時反請銷稅可以追溯既往至90天前這樣的行為你認為是不是應該追溯 部長"},{"start":482.577,"end":504.077,"text":"有這樣的規定 那可以由業者來提出申請業者又要申訴一次 你才決定要不要柯真這很明顯是囤貨的行為啊這很明顯啊 就是在對抗你的反傾銷的行為啊你還要問業者 你主管機關沒有判斷能力嗎"},{"start":505.759,"end":510.083,"text":"我們回溯課程法律上是有規定要件我們是從展開調查的前三個月跟後三個月來比較他有沒有因為我們展開調查大量的囤積"},{"start":528.382,"end":544.58,"text":"數字上會說話數字我們會再調查很明顯啊是 那也跟委員報告抓到了基本上他要申請要課反警交稅的時候同時要跟我們申請說他要不要臨時課徵那你覺得這有沒有明顯這個行為有明顯 你自己看嘛"},{"start":546.104,"end":557.886,"text":"從委員的這個圖表數字來看我們要看他展開調查之前三個月跟後三個月的基期的一個變化這我們回去會看數據你們好好調查一下 如果必要時應該催售對不對 署長"},{"start":562.216,"end":576.986,"text":"我們還是要看它是不是符合要件我們還是要看它有沒有符合回收要件來 部長我再跟你講一個那個假嘴有慣犯真的是慣不怕今天就談菸酒的問題你看有一個零性慣犯"},{"start":577.887,"end":602.328,"text":"他在2016年施設地下這一個工廠製造假酒被判刑五年 還是因為火災喔從2022到2027 結果呢緩刑時間還沒到 2021又賣假酒因為組織犯罪才被判刑兩年今年 今年又因為犯罪集團的顧問繼續賣假酒又被抓到了總共三次"},{"start":604.93,"end":625.059,"text":"違反了什麼 違反了這個組織犯罪法 它是因為組織犯罪而被犯罪的喔還有包括這個商標法喔 還有其他的文書罪喔那我就要問啊 這個是不是啊 我們的菸酒管理法當中呢 太弱或者是我們食品安全衛生法"},{"start":625.859,"end":649.377,"text":"管理法太鬆兩位部長兩位部長這個假酒會害死人啊連酒瓶一瓶 連酒瓶喔都可以賣錢還到處收購因為它被扣留了兩萬瓶空瓶子兩位部長你們是沒有在喝酒啦我相信你們身體都非常的健康啦但是問題呢 國人也要健康啦"},{"start":650.707,"end":663.835,"text":"怎麼處理屢犯屢抓再屢犯兩位部長 莊部長要先回答還是邱部長先回答我想這個不問問的話"},{"start":669.931,"end":697.497,"text":"應該是很不應該有這樣的情況那因為酒不算食品但是財務財政部在做相關的觀看所以說跟你都沒有關係那財政部來回答來財政部要怎麼處理我想這個部分對國民的健康非常重要但是因為現在的菸酒管理法裡面原來對於就是說有刑罰但這個部分早我已經站起來了我受顯膽的要求那個法該檢討的檢討一個月給本席一份報告"},{"start":698.357,"end":707.926,"text":"是不是要專案欺查齁你也是做一個考量啦衡量一下也給本席一個報告好不好專案普遍的現象是不可以啦好不好OK 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":298,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時54分）謝謝主席，有請莊部長跟邱部長兩位部長。"],["主席：莊部長跟邱部長請。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：莊部長，我先讓你看一下照片，這張照片是放在海關裡頭滿坑滿谷的加熱菸，你自己有沒有去看過？在海關沒收的加熱菸總共有34萬條之多，依照到5月的統計，已經有442.54萬包了，有14萬條已經交給地方政府了，有20萬條堆放在海關裡頭，就是這樣滿坑滿谷的情況，在之前已經過期而銷毀的也有11萬條，你看看現在堆了這麼多，結果變成是財政部的事情了。剛剛有委員說如果半年內沒有通過的話，菸酒公司的董事長要下臺，但是沒有讓它通過的是在你左邊的那一位邱部長啊！結果變成衛福部可以主導讓菸酒公司的董事長下臺，這真的是笑話啊！","另外，這還有什麼後遺症？連日本都質疑臺灣的法規會阻礙日客來臺，就是因為加熱菸的審查延期，因為在3月份的時候衛福部還說連持有都要罰，就像毒品一樣。到底加熱菸合不合法？政府是誘人犯罪嗎？違反信賴保護原則嗎？基本的法律素養都沒有嗎？還是怠惰沒有審查所以全部都卡在衛福部？我們心裡頭非常清楚。","部長，你應該也希望多一點稅收的來源吧！剛剛賴召委說稅損就差了100億，長照3.0需不需要稅收的來源？邱部長，有需要嗎？長照3.0欸！過去是1個月補助1萬，接下來1個月要補助1萬5，所需要的稅金來源要更多，結果你這個稅損就差了100億。","部長，我們的這個審查標準有比其他的國家還嚴嗎？還是因為人為的因素？上一屆剛卸任的委員就對外放出風聲，說在他們這一屆裡頭不可能通過，而這一屆委員到現在還沒有開會審查，部長，如果衛福部有這麼大的意見，當初就不應該提出院版，就不應該讓它通過，不是嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：在院版三讀的時候，當然那個法案就有審查的辦法，在這個辦法裡面也有列出標準，那個時候也聘請了委員，任期是2年，現在到期了，我們現在也換了新的委員。"],["郭委員國文：在這2年連1件都沒有通過，審查的標準有比人家嚴嗎？你和其他國家比較就好了，你不要制定一個自己的標準嘛！很多國家都已經合法化，要去抄也很容易抄，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：吳署長，有沒有其他國家的審查……"],["郭委員國文：有需要搞成這麼久嗎？"],["吳署長昭軍：跟委員報告，目前全球只有兩個國家在審查，一個是美國、一個是臺灣，其他的國家是沒有審查，直接核備就可以上市，一般的……"],["郭委員國文：對，沒有審查也會有一個標準，我們的標準為什麼這麼嚴？我們的審查為什麼這麼嚴？為什麼拖了兩年多？為什麼10家沒有1家通過？開了五十幾次會都沒有通過，為什麼？"],["吳署長昭軍：我們是依據美國FDA上市前審查的標準來做相關的審查作業。"],["郭委員國文：所以我們的標準是依照美國？"],["吳署長昭軍：是。"],["郭委員國文：完全一樣，口味都相同？"],["吳署長昭軍：幾乎都相同。"],["郭委員國文：幾乎都相同，我們拿回來的這些加熱菸有沒有美國菸？"],["吳署長昭軍：目前在美國也還沒有上市。"],["郭委員國文：目前這些菸是從哪邊來？"],["吳署長昭軍：在全球有各地方不同的。"],["郭委員國文：不同的？"],["吳署長昭軍：不同的國家。"],["郭委員國文：我們既然已經合法化了，難道一定要比照美國的標準，是不是？你現在的意思是這樣嗎？"],["吳署長昭軍：我們按照那個規定跟流程，還有業者需要準備的相關資料來做審查。"],["郭委員國文：這些業者會不清楚嗎？"],["吳署長昭軍：業者都清楚，我們做過很多次的說明會，要求它補件……"],["郭委員國文：如果是標準的問題，那你就把標準公布出來，你就把標準提供給我們委員會，到底問題出在哪裡？到底是行政怠惰，還是標準過嚴，還是業者不從？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，這整個過程只要依法能夠公告的，我們就來報告委員會。"],["郭委員國文：就如同剛剛賴委員要求的一樣，把五十幾次的會議紀錄給我們，讓我們清楚知道到底什麼原因，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好的，我們會把依法可以公告的提供給大家。"],["郭委員國文：部長，應該解決的問題，你還是要解決，拖著不是辦法。"],["邱部長泰源：我們會儘速來解決。"],["郭委員國文：你看海關放了34萬條在這邊堆積如山。"],["邱部長泰源：其實工作同仁都是依法、依規定在處理。"],["郭委員國文：可以搞了兩年多！","接下來，我問一下莊部長，莊部長，我讓你看一下數據，關於中國啤酒的問題，經濟部在4月28日的時候就已經宣告中國啤酒傾銷對臺灣產業造成傷害，根據最新統計，中國啤酒市占率在今年第一季已經來到36%，你知道臺啤目前的市占率有多少嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我知道，臺啤的市占率現在在下降當中，原來都是超過五成以上，現在也在下降。"],["郭委員國文：對，目前一直下降當中，已經下降到40.91%，跟中國進來的36%相差不遠，與去年比較還down了6%，已經接近死亡交叉了，恐怕在一年之內就會被中國啤酒給超越了。在這種情況底下，我們現在可能會祭出臨時反傾銷稅，在70天之內，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，這個部分就如同剛剛委員講的，經濟部已經在4月30日完成初步的產業損害調查，70天以內我們要完成所謂的傾銷初步調查，而且我們還會送關稅稅率審議委員會小組，所以最晚我們在7月9日之前就會公告。"],["郭委員國文：7月9日之前？"],["莊部長翠雲：7月9日之前就會公告初步的調查結果。"],["郭委員國文：7月9日之前會公布是否課徵臨時反傾銷稅？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，7月9日之前。"],["郭委員國文：裡面有一個條款是有必要的時候得延後30天，應該不會延後了吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們的關務署一直非常積極地在進行當中。"],["郭委員國文：所以不會延後？"],["莊部長翠雲：會依照這個期限來做，不會再延期。"],["郭委員國文：不會再延後，好，70天內、7月9日。現階段與去年5月比較進口量多59%，接近六成，為什麼會多進口？你看右邊這一張圖片，有沒有看到價格調漲通知，請提前囤貨，雪山、百威、可樂娜、Bar等等，而且是從7月1日開始要全面調漲價格，請把握補貨機會，搶購現價庫存，看到沒有？這叫囤貨！進口越多、囤貨越多對臺灣的啤酒產業傷害越大，請問依照平衡稅及反傾銷稅課徵實施辦法第二十五條之一第二項第二款規定，課徵臨時反傾銷稅可以追溯既往至90天前，部長，你認為這樣的行為是不是應該追溯？"],["莊部長翠雲：有這樣的規定，可以由業者提出申請。"],["郭委員國文：業者又要申訴一次，你才決定要不要課徵，這很明顯是囤貨行為，這很明顯就是在對抗你的反傾銷行為，你還要問業者，主管機關沒有判斷能力嗎？部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分是不是請署長來做回應？"],["郭委員國文：好，請彭署長，30秒。"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，回溯課徵在法律上有規定要件，我們是從展開調查的前三個月與後三個月來比較，他有沒有因為我們展開調查大量的囤積。"],["郭委員國文：那就是啦！數字會說話。"],["彭署長英偉：數字我們會再調查。"],["郭委員國文：很明顯啊！抓到了！"],["彭署長英偉：也跟委員報告，基本上，他申請要課反傾銷稅的時候，同時要跟我們申請他要不要臨時課徵，也要跟我們申請……"],["郭委員國文：你覺得這個行為有沒有很明顯？你自己看嘛！"],["彭署長英偉：從委員的這個圖表數字來看，我們要看他展開調查之前三個月與後三個月的基期變化，我們回去會看數據。"],["郭委員國文：你們要好好調查一下，如果必要時應該追溯，對不對？署長，你連這個都不敢講？"],["彭署長英偉：我們還是要看他有沒有符合回溯要件。"],["郭委員國文：署長，你下去吧！","部長，我再跟你講一個問題，假酒慣犯真的是關不怕，今天我要談菸酒的問題，有一個林姓慣犯在2016年的時候私設地下工廠製造假酒，因為工廠發生火災被發現，遭判緩刑5年，從2022年到2027年。結果緩刑時間還沒到，2021年又被抓到賣假酒，而且因為組織犯罪才被判刑兩年；今年又再度擔任犯罪集團顧問，繼續賣假酒被抓到，總共3次違反組織犯罪，他是因為組織犯罪防制條例被抓，包括商標法還有其他的文書罪。我就要問是不是我們的菸酒管理法太弱，或者是我們的食品安全衛生管理法太鬆？兩位部長，假酒會害死人，連酒瓶都可以賣錢，還到處收購，因為他被扣留了兩萬瓶空瓶子。兩位部長，你們是沒有在喝酒，我相信你們身體都非常的健康，但是問題是國人也要健康，這怎麼處理？屢犯、屢抓、再屢犯，莊部長要先回答，還是邱部長先回答？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，這個部分應該是很不應該有這樣的情況，因為酒不算食品，是財政部在做相關的管理。"],["郭委員國文：所以跟你都沒有關係，財政部來回答。財政部，這要怎麼處理？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分對國民的健康非常重要，但是因為現在菸酒管理法裡面，原來是有刑罰，但是這個部分目前並沒有刑罰。"],["郭委員國文：召委已經站起來了，我提出簡短的要求，法該檢討的檢討，一個月給本席一份報告，是不是要專案稽查，你也去做一個考量，衡量一下，也給本席一個報告，好不好？這樣普遍的現象是不可以的，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭委員的質詢。","下一位請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-18","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","李彥秀","陳玉珍","林思銘","黃珊珊","王世堅","葉元之","林月琴","王育敏","羅明才","陳昭姿","翁曉玲","張啓楷","麥玉珍","蘇清泉","謝龍介","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、衛生福利部邱部長泰源、法務部、海洋委員會海巡署就「近三年菸酒管\n理法對於私菸（含電子菸 加熱菸）查緝成效與菸品健康捐經費分配及運作使用情形」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146101_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}