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已經是790天了那所有這個"},{"start":115.29,"end":140.251,"text":"就是我們的菸的一個稅戶跟那個健康狐狸間我們在這裡面臨到這樣的一個困境那部長 你有沒有什麼樣的一個看法竟然就是說我們之前的幾位委員一直遲遲的在質疑就是說我們的台酒公司送了五次送了五次的一個資料然後這五次全部都被退回是什麼樣的一個原因呢"},{"start":142.373,"end":166.168,"text":"我們那個菸酒公司他確實有送件去申請跟衛護部申請所謂的要製加熱菸不過因為被退五次那相關的細節內容可能是我們國健署比較清楚國健署署長來你來說明為什麼台酒會被退了五次我不管另外那六家公司我就管台酒公司為什麼被你退了五次"},{"start":167.548,"end":185.082,"text":"他寫的很差嗎?他的計畫寫的很差嗎?我們審查的最大的風險評估的標準那其實就是說所有的指定制菸品它的風險不得高於國內指驗的一個比較如果足以證明這樣的一個方式所以台酒公司送出去"},{"start":187.263,"end":197.452,"text":"台酒公司送出去的所有的資料都不合乎你們的標準不是說所有 至少說它已經還是有一些那當然 因為它沒有辦法說服大家認同這個部分就是有些資料的缺少你已經不知道社會的問題存在哪裡"},{"start":207.003,"end":229.597,"text":"上一屆我在衛環委員會 電子菸是我當召委的時候通過的結果2023年3月22號要去執行它 到現在完全沒有辦法執行為什麼我不請衛福部部長上來因為衛福部部長當初也是我們衛福部的委員其實我都認了幾次都會"},{"start":231.907,"end":244.734,"text":"為什麼這些問題存在哪裡我相信所有的人在現場所有的人大家都搞不清楚只有你最清楚只有你最清楚問題出在哪裡為什麼讓這個這麼簡單的一個問題然後這個社會的一個對立面這麼大為什麼不要去處理呢"},{"start":254.352,"end":279.298,"text":"你說你的委屈在哪裡 說給我們聽聽看我想這不是委屈 該行政來的時候 該有行政來的時候我們必須依法保障民眾最大的立法院那所以你能力很差 經過790天了你沒有辦法去執行它 為什麼審查的過程中一直都是要最完備最完整的情況下以民眾的健康完備那最完備完整 三讀通過了當初在立法院的一個送案就是不夠完備是不是這樣子 我可以這樣講咧"},{"start":283.876,"end":306.986,"text":"不是這樣說,因為售遣給我們做這樣的審查,就要遵守審查委員對於相關的風險評估的一個審查我非常謝謝賴思寶召委今天排這個案子啊我跟你說,這個對我們執政黨的委員來講,我們是很委屈啊我們不知道怎麼樣去要求國建署啊"},{"start":308.35,"end":329.884,"text":"國監署每一次在質詢的過程當中你同樣都是回答相同的問題你看連我們的台酒公司在上一屆換了就是跟這一屆是不同的一個董事長我們竟然要賭上這個台酒公司在半年如果沒有辦法通過的話執政黨的委員要他辭職這個有道理嗎"},{"start":337.23,"end":341.616,"text":"當然是沒有道理啊 大家不好意思賣力啊是你的問題啊不是嗎我覺得這個讓我們很困境欸怎麼辦"},{"start":350.973,"end":366.766,"text":"我想我們都會全力來協助五十萬的那也要依歸來辦理三個業內喔三個業內你可以提出我想我們會做最後的一個審查確認那也希望A組能夠把相關完整的資訊給我們最後的一個確認的審查要多久來 部長你回答"},{"start":374.381,"end":386.249,"text":"第一個我想整個我希望健康署我們要求他把開會比如說委員為什麼投票不會通過他的理由以及缺乏的"},{"start":387.515,"end":411.145,"text":"資料到底在哪裡,一次一次說清楚一次一次說清楚,不找三個業內,不能讓社會不瞭解你看嘛,你完全扣不到稅,然後你還要花到那麼多的一個社會的一個成本,那去抓他我想我們應該清楚的來瞭解這個過程,才讓全民知道說為什麼要這麼,走得這麼"},{"start":413.907,"end":441.528,"text":"走得這麼辛苦是不是那要到790天到現在大家還這麼嚴肅的再來討論這些問題是你的審查卡關還是你其他的一個問題部長我們應該去面對這些問題我們不能把那個稽查的成本居高不下你讓這一些這一些其他的一個部會的這個社會成本是這麼高的沒道理啊好我們會站在人民健康以及他規劃的規定之下"},{"start":443.048,"end":459.414,"text":"那個絕對是馬不停蹄來處理你的馬不停蹄要多久 三個月可以嗎我們很期盼三個月能夠不要期盼 我們用確定的因為這個是委員會啦 所以委員也必須要拜託業者能夠提供我們也希望業者真的是如果針對審查會提出的意見能夠"},{"start":469.238,"end":475.162,"text":"符合就好像我們在科技上,科什麼的,我們就把它補好就好嘛你已經準備兩年,題目都給你們啊我是站在比較一個光穎的立場來看,其實行政單位也是努力"},{"start":487.21,"end":505.201,"text":"那專家寫者你不得因為當時兩年前就請這些專家寫者他們有他們的各種堅持或者是專業我跟你講這樣的一個模式我們必須要去做修正當已經很多的這個社會的聲音還有很多的"},{"start":506.081,"end":522.176,"text":"委員在這裡提出了這麼多不同面向的一個問題你應該要去正視如果你再繼續不正視的話下一次我就再排 完全了解我們非常正視下一次就再排 謝謝部長來 那個我們那個彭署長署長來 請彭署長彭署長官務署的彭署長"},{"start":532.478,"end":560.894,"text":"委員好彭署長 是那個我們就是這整個關戶數有幾個這個幾個關下面有四個關區有四個關區是哪一個關區它的規模是最大的以人數來說是台北關一千兩百多人最大那我請教你現在台北關它所有在倉庫裡頭囤放的那個寄放的物品最多的是哪一樣的一個物品"},{"start":561.696,"end":587.29,"text":"目前加熱菸有20萬條是比較多加熱菸有20萬條那啤酒呢啤酒中國進口的啤酒多不多啤酒應該扣押的應該不算多中國進口的啤酒多不多他洗產地的多不多好那我再請問你太陽能板多不多"},{"start":589.513,"end":606.258,"text":"都有那所以就是從加熱菸到這個那個中國啤酒到那個太陽能板跟委員報告扣押的沒有中國大陸的啤酒禮拜三我們到你的台北關來考察"},{"start":607.459,"end":629.837,"text":"我們真正的去看到了到底就是我們整個關務署台北關存在的一個情況你到底是換了多少這個中國啤酒 換了多少太陽能板換了多少加熱菸 可以嗎老闆 委員 那個現在台應該是到基隆關因為那個中國大陸的啤酒是從基隆關好 那就去基隆關跟台北關 兩個關都看"},{"start":633.296,"end":659.344,"text":"兩個關都看 好不好 趕快回去準備幹什麼準備就怎麼準備有沒有問題沒有問題 謝謝財政部部長我想今天本來要跟你討論一些那個菸煎的一個用途當然我們知道就是說長期以來這個菸煎的用途跟那個菸碎的那個用途其實是有差異性的"},{"start":659.764,"end":684.994,"text":"那倒是特別要在這裡就是說 煙圈是不是夠那每一個人抽煙的人口其實一直在減少那當然我們知道煙圈是不夠的這個是來補助健保健保的一個它在一個總額的預算裡頭不足的地方那所以就是說沒有關係這個我們在私下就是說煙圈那個撥飽健保的一個強化健保的一個那個"},{"start":688.84,"end":708.979,"text":"制度那我們私下在那個跟你要一些資料你再提供給我們那我們當然也看到國建署在今年也面臨到一個困境他已經開始就是去動用這個爭取公務的預算31億那我們希望就是抽菸的人口變少那我們也希望就是說"},{"start":710.24,"end":717.804,"text":"這些抽菸的人口要共同的負擔我們國人的一個健康那在這裡是本席今天所做的一個質詢的內容謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":462,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時19分）謝謝主席，先請財政部莊部長、關務署彭署長及國民健康署吳署長。"],["主席：請財政部莊部長、關務署彭署長及國健署吳署長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：部長早安。部長，你們家裡有沒有人抽菸？"],["莊部長翠雲：家裡有人抽菸。"],["賴委員惠員：抽電子煙還是抽紙菸？"],["莊部長翠雲：紙菸。"],["賴委員惠員：紙菸，你想想看這電子煙已經這麼普及了，可是我們一直都沒有辦法……主席暫停一下，我的電腦跳不過去。"],["主席：時間暫停一下。"],["賴委員惠員：主席，我們繼續。"],["主席：時間繼續。"],["賴委員惠員：部長，在這裡我要特別請教你一下，當你們家或你四周圍也有這樣一個抽菸人口的時候，我們事實上有很大的一個困境，因為我們抽稅抽不到電子煙及加熱菸，在2023年1月12日通過的「菸酒稅法」修正案，至今已經是790天了，這種菸的稅賦及健康福利捐，我們在這裡面臨到這樣的困境，部長有沒有什麼樣的看法？之前的幾位委員一直有在質疑，臺酒公司送了5次的申請資料，結果這5次全部都被退回，是什麼樣的原因呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們菸酒公司確實有送件跟衛福部申請所謂的製造加熱菸的業務，不過因為被退5次，這相關的細節內容可能國健署會比較清楚。"],["賴委員惠員：好，請國健署署長來說明，為什麼臺酒會被退了5次？不管另外那6家公司，我就管臺酒公司為什麼被你們退了5次？他們的計畫寫得很差嗎？"],["吳署長昭軍：我們審查最大風險評估的標準，其實就是所有的指定菸品的危害風險不得高於國內紙菸的一個標準，如果能足以證明這樣的方式就可以，所以臺酒公司的資料……"],["賴委員惠員：署長，所以臺酒公司送出去的所有資料都不合乎你們的標準嗎？"],["吳署長昭軍：不是所有，至少他們已經……還是有一些……"],["賴委員惠員：你們持續退了他們5次了啊！到底是什麼原因？"],["吳署長昭軍：當然啊！因為他們沒有辦法說服大家所認同的這個部分，有一些資料缺少……"],["賴委員惠員：沒有辦法說服？我覺得你已經不知道社會的問題在哪裡？上一屆我在衛環委員會，電子煙是我在擔任召委的時候通過的，結果2023年3月22日要執行的，到現在完全沒有辦法執行，為什麼我不請衛福部部長上來？因為衛福部部長當初也是我們衛環委員會的委員，其實我們都忍了一肚子氣，這些問題存在哪裡？我相信在現場所有的人都搞不清楚，只有你最清楚問題出在哪裡？為什麼讓這麼簡單的一個問題使這個社會的對立面這麼大，為什麼不去處理呢？你說你的委屈在哪裡說給我們聽聽看。"],["吳署長昭軍：這不是委屈，該行政的就該有行政的作法，我們必須依法保障民眾的最大利益及健康。"],["賴委員惠員：所以你能力很差，經過790天了，你們還沒有辦法去執行它，為什麼？"],["吳署長昭軍：審查的過程中，一直都是要以最完備及最完整的情況下審查，以民眾的健康為依歸。"],["賴委員惠員：這最完備、完整的三讀通過了，當初在立法院的送案就是不夠完備，是不是這樣？"],["吳署長昭軍：還是需要審查的完備性。"],["賴委員惠員：我可不可以這樣講？"],["吳署長昭軍：不是這樣說，因為授權給我們做這樣的審查，就要尊重審查委員對於相關的風險評估的審查。"],["賴委員惠員：署長，你到現在還是……我非常謝謝賴士葆召委今天排這個案子啊！我跟你說，這個對我們執政黨的委員來講，我們是很委屈，不知道怎麼樣去要求國健署啊！國健署每一次在質詢的過程當中，同樣都是回答相同的問題，你看連我們的臺酒公司在這一屆換了跟上一屆不同的董事長，我們竟然要賭上臺酒公司董事長的職位，再半年如果沒有辦法通過的話，執政黨的委員要他辭職，這個有道理嗎？當然是沒有道理啊！大家不好意思罵你，是你的問題啊，不是嗎？我覺得這個讓我們很困境，怎麼辦？"],["吳署長昭軍：我們會全力來協助相關的業者，也確實要依規定來辦理。"],["賴委員惠員：剛才部長說3個月內喔！3個月內你可以提出……"],["吳署長昭軍：我們會做最後的審查確認，也希望業者能夠把相關完整的資訊給我們。"],["賴委員惠員：署長，最後的審查確認要多久？來，部長由你回答。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員。第一個，我希望國健署……我們會要求他們把開會的，譬如委員為什麼投票不會通過，他們不通過的理由是什麼以及缺乏的資料到底在哪裡，一次一次說清楚。"],["賴委員惠員：一次一次說清楚？部長，你剛才答應要在3個月內了喔！"],["邱部長泰源：我覺得不能不讓社會不了解。"],["賴委員惠員：你看嘛！完全扣不到稅，你們還要花到那麼多的社會成本去抓他們，這實在是本末倒置。"],["邱部長泰源：我們應該要清楚的來了解整個過程，才可以讓全民知道為什麼要這麼走得這麼……要這麼嚴謹。"],["賴委員惠員：走得這麼辛苦，是不是？都過了790天，到現在大家還這麼嚴肅的在討論這些問題，是你們的審查卡關？還是你們其他的問題？部長，我們應該去面對這些問題，我們不能把那個稽查的成本居高不下，讓其他部會所花費的社會成本是這麼高的，沒道理啊！"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們會站在人民健康以及法規的規定之下，絕對是馬不停蹄來處理。"],["賴委員惠員：你的馬不停蹄要多久？3個月可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們很期盼3個月能夠有個結果。"],["賴委員惠員：不要期盼，我們要確定的。"],["邱部長泰源：因為這個是審查委員會，所以我們也必須要拜託業者能夠提供……"],["賴委員惠員：我跟你講這個委員會，已經跟你們太多的時間了，部長這樣講，沒道理啦！"],["邱部長泰源：我們希望業者真的可以針對審查會提出的意見能夠符合，就好像我們考試考不好，我們就把它補好就好，這個事情也拜託一下。"],["賴委員惠員：你已經準備2年，題目都給你們了，你們到現在還是……"],["邱部長泰源：我是站在比較公允的立場來看，其實行政單位也是都很努力，專家學者不得……因為當時2年前就請這些專家學者，他們有他們的各種堅持或者專業，這我們也要尊重，但是……"],["賴委員惠員：部長，我跟你講這樣的一個模式，我們必須要去修正，當已經很多社會的聲音還有很多的委員在這裡提出了這麼多不同面向的問題，你應該要去正視，如果你再繼續不正視的話，下一次我就再排。"],["邱部長泰源：完全了解，我們完全非常正視。"],["賴委員惠員：是，下次就再排，謝謝部長。","接下來請彭署長。"],["主席：請關務署彭署長。"],["彭署長英偉：委員好！"],["賴委員惠員：彭署長，整個關務署有幾個關？"],["彭署長英偉：下面有四個關區。"],["賴委員惠員：有四個關區。"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["賴委員惠員：哪一個關區的規模是最大的？"],["彭署長英偉：以人數來說是臺北關，有一千兩百多人，最大。"],["賴委員惠員：臺北關，好，我請教你，現在臺北關所有在倉庫裡頭囤放的、寄放的物品最多的是哪一樣物品？"],["彭署長英偉：目前加熱菸有20萬條，是比較多。"],["賴委員惠員：加熱菸有20萬條，啤酒呢？"],["彭署長英偉：啤酒……"],["賴委員惠員：中國進口的啤酒多不多？"],["彭署長英偉：啤酒扣押的應該不算多，尤其臺北關沒有進口啤酒。"],["賴委員惠員：中國進口的啤酒多不多？他洗產地的多不多？"],["彭署長英偉：中國進口的啤酒……"],["賴委員惠員：好，我再請問你，太陽能板多不多？"],["彭署長英偉：都有。"],["賴委員惠員：都有。"],["彭署長英偉：對。"],["賴委員惠員：所以就是從加熱菸，到中國啤酒，到太陽能板……"],["彭署長英偉：跟委員報告，扣押的……"],["賴委員惠員：我跟你講，署長，回去盤點……"],["彭署長英偉：扣押的沒有中國大陸的啤酒。"],["賴委員惠員：回去盤點。下禮拜三我們到你的臺北關考察，我們要真正的去看到關務署臺北關的存放情況，到底是放了多少中國啤酒、放了多少太陽能板、放了多少加熱菸，可以嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，現在安排的應該是到基隆關……"],["賴委員惠員：趕快回去準備。"],["彭署長英偉：因為中國大陸的啤酒是從基隆關……"],["賴委員惠員：好，就去基隆關及臺北關，兩個關都看，兩個關都看，好不好？"],["彭署長英偉：好，沒有問題，但是……"],["賴委員惠員：趕快回去準備。"],["彭署長英偉：是、是、是。"],["賴委員惠員：該怎麼準備就怎麼準備。"],["彭署長英偉：了解。"],["賴委員惠員：有沒有問題？"],["彭署長英偉：沒有問題。"],["賴委員惠員：沒有問題喔！"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝。請財政部部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好！"],["賴委員惠員：部長，今天本來要跟你討論菸捐的用途，當然我們知道，長期以來菸捐的用途與菸稅的用途其實是有差異性的，我特別要在這裡提到菸捐是不是夠，每年抽菸的人口其實一直在減少，當然我們知道菸捐是不夠的，這個是用來補助健保總額預算裡頭不足的地方，沒有關係，有關菸捐撥補健保、強化健保的制度，我們私下再跟你要一些資料，你再提供給我們。我們當然也看到今年國健署也面臨到困境，他已經開始爭取公務預算31億。我們希望抽菸的人口變少，也希望抽菸的人口要共同負擔國人的健康。這是本席今天所做的質詢內容，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員，我們提供資料，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴召委的質詢。","向委員會報告，我們進行質詢到陳玉珍委員之後才休息。","繼續請李坤城委員質詢。","還有藉這個機會我要公開的肯定邱部長，他不是本委員會所監督的，但是他兩次都親自到本委員會，我們是給予肯定。邱部長都可以親自到了，我們希望財委會所監督的各部會首長，我們有開會的時候，一定要親自到。請。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-18","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","鍾佳濱","賴惠員","李坤城","顏寬恒","李彥秀","陳玉珍","林思銘","黃珊珊","王世堅","葉元之","林月琴","王育敏","羅明才","陳昭姿","翁曉玲","張啓楷","麥玉珍","蘇清泉","謝龍介","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2025-06-19"],"gazette_id":"1146101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、衛生福利部邱部長泰源、法務部、海洋委員會海巡署就「近三年菸酒管\n理法對於私菸（含電子菸 加熱菸）查緝成效與菸品健康捐經費分配及運作使用情形」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146101_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}