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麻煩有請法務部次長 矯正署署長請黃次長 周署長兩位好 次長 接下來的問題啊如果你不熟的話 沒有關係 請署長代答先不用先得到我的許可之前啊 法務部說啊 智慧安全監鎖好萊塢大片啊 將成真"},{"start":34.517,"end":61.738,"text":"搞大內宣非常的會我也希望智慧監所能夠真的落實能夠實現總是一個願景嘛但是我們的八德外預監花了納稅人將近29億元29億有一個興建統包的工程案我之前署長應該還記得我已經問過這件事了"},{"start":64.534,"end":82.902,"text":"我們本來竣工的日期第一階段2022年3月2號第二階段2022年11月9號現在是2025年啦到今天為止竣工了沒有 請教"},{"start":84.985,"end":103.351,"text":"報告委員現在我們第一階段是進攻第二階段還沒進攻但是我們預定我們希望在年底前可以2022年11月9號要進攻搞到現在2025年沒有進攻我上一次問你的時候你還記不記得你告訴我什麼時候要進攻還記不記得我們在這邊曾經有過的質詢你還記不記得"},{"start":115.185,"end":129.032,"text":"忘記了那時候我們是希望說在上半年啦上半年就是六月份的時候來來來來來你那時候跟我講什麼你那時候跟我講說2024年年底要完成我有記錯嗎2024年那因為他有一些經營權的爭議那是廠商的問題嘛提和解關我們什麼事"},{"start":144.386,"end":171.758,"text":"那是廠商的問題嘛不管廠商是A經營 B經營 C經營 D經營跟政府之間簽的契約你敢得標你就要履約嘛搞到現在喔搞到現在喔我進一步看啊2025年上半年 你去年跟我講年底要完成那部長今年"},{"start":173.103,"end":198.292,"text":"提給社交法治委員會的報告說上半年要完成上半年有完成嗎現在應該是已經要下半年了吧報告委員我們就是巴德也盡量努力來完成盡量努力嘛好來我們來看一下你們怎麼樣要努力啦小戰署發函給巴德外議監說齁不要再延不要再延期了啦這是你們發的函嗎是"},{"start":202.699,"end":219.865,"text":"什麼時候?7月中要竣工,做得到嗎?現在應該是希望說不要希望啦,做不做得到就給一個乾脆的答案現在要到年底喔?年底完成竣工退縮阿你們矯正署自己都退縮了喔?"},{"start":220.922,"end":240.696,"text":"阿你不是發函給巴德外一間7月15號要完成並不是退收現在是第六次他們有提行政案工程會來做和解所謂的仲裁那跟他去不去不跟他有什麼關係因為有一些有涉及到所謂驗收的問題來我們來看我們來看驗收的問題阿花了納稅的29億阿2022年"},{"start":249.42,"end":276.713,"text":"就應該要完工了我的法務部現在是搞大內宣很會啊那個媒體怎麼會出這種報導我看了我都覺得很驚訝你要搞大內宣沒有關係啊你要作秀擺拍也沒有關係啊事情要做到嘛事情沒做到還搞大內宣作秀擺拍好萊塢大片納稅人看了會淌血啊29億耶"},{"start":278.766,"end":293.137,"text":"不是29萬欸29億欸29億給你們預算搞成這個樣子喔來 搞成什麼樣子我們接下來要看啊2025年6月2號審計部查核意見法務部有沒有收到有收到了不僅法務部收到啊我掌握的東西連行政院秘書長都收到了查核意見講什麼"},{"start":308.322,"end":313.266,"text":"該間分別於112年1到3月辦理出院112年是2023年啊早就過了應該竣工的期間啊驗生不合格項目多達2279項2279項不是2項不是22項是2279項最關鍵的是什麼到今年3月底"},{"start":337.045,"end":361.72,"text":"部分驗收日已耗損一年八個月餘還有部分缺失21項初驗缺失9項還有30個缺失沒有完成改善重點是下面根本沒有辦法發揮智慧監獄的功能這是我們審計部說的法務部接到審計部這樣子的一個審計報告做了什麼檢討"},{"start":366.3,"end":373.87,"text":"做了什麼究責來請法務部次長還是收到這個文了以後看一看丟到旁邊反正審計部來歸審計部來言者尊尊聽者渺渺"},{"start":378.015,"end":380.496,"text":"依照合約精神我們都會督促矯正署來督促依照合約精神"},{"start":407.725,"end":433.175,"text":"他得外意見來要求廠商你依照合約精神可以做什麼就是要求他要把這些缺失改善完才可以完成這個驗手造成的延遲造成國家的損失誰要負責這個部分呢因為廠商也有提這個工程會的調解所以我們也在跟他這兩碼子是嘛那是廠商的救濟嘛現在我的問題是站在法務部的立場該做什麼可以做什麼"},{"start":433.755,"end":459.966,"text":"對我們因為跟他是這個合約關係所以我們也是依照合約經常要求依照合約可以做什麼不要講空的啦現在階段就是還在調解調解如果不成的話未來可能會延誼或是否進行訴訟延誼進行訴訟對啊你要跟他要求什麼你的訴訟標的訴之聲明是什麼就是如果契約不履行的話依照合約可能有違約金可能有違約金市長這個案子你有掌握嗎"},{"start":460.929,"end":484.975,"text":"我有初步掌握我看你很不熟我為什麼說你很不熟我接下來帶你看你為什麼剛剛講的全部都是空的在同一份審計報告裡面全部都點出來了來我們往下看三道門人臉辨識系統的缺失改善完了沒有這上次喔我去巴德外醫間我自己去拍了照"},{"start":486.294,"end":497.484,"text":"那個時候你們跟我說要花一點時間改善三道門很重要嘛你防止脫逃三道門不能同時開嘛三道門的缺失現在改善完成沒有"},{"start":498.895,"end":518.626,"text":"報告委員他們有送我們這邊但是我們要以比較高標準的平率比較多正常可以正常可以發揮功能可以嗎所以我們現在還沒有給他驗收通過因為我們要換言之這個缺失還沒有改善完對不對整個問題回答就好了"},{"start":520.467,"end":545.729,"text":"他有送上來讓我們覺得說要用高頻率穩定的狀況下沒問題我們才會認說通過所以缺失還沒有改善完成對不對是不是現在還沒有核定通過沒有改善完成就沒有改善完成嘛這我去年的質詢內容啊我已經一而再再而三提醒法務部啊我開始追的事情我一定會一路追下去啊29億啊"},{"start":548.26,"end":553.648,"text":"我再提醒一次啊 29億啊千事器缺失改善完的嗎這也是我去年問的"},{"start":564.017,"end":581.375,"text":"監視器的部分是算弱電部分的部分這個部分我們有要求但是廠商他有進度但是進度不如理想沒關係嘛就繼續拖嘛為什麼廠商敢擺爛為什麼超過合約的期間這麼久"},{"start":586.072,"end":612.434,"text":"我繼續給你拖嘛反正呢我們的法務部我們的矯正署遇到這樣的問題有缺失啊來改善有缺失啊來改善我繼續拖繼續混今天如果遲延一個月我用這麼嚴厲的態度啊來質問法務部可能是我不夠厚道我再提醒一次啊2022年就要進攻現在是2025年"},{"start":613.888,"end":625.674,"text":"你們每一次跟立法院講的提到立法院的報告是一而再 再而三跳票為什麼這個廠商敢這麼皮啊來因為損害賠償以契約價金總額20%為上限超過20啦現在早就超過20啦超過20你能拿我怎麼樣你拿我給我沒皮條啊"},{"start":645.526,"end":671.667,"text":"我繼續辭言下去還是百分之二十啊連審計部都看不下去了啊審計部怎麼講 我唸給你聽啊該監 就講得八德外一監明明知道 契約所定 辭言履約罰則 應祭 祭罰上限已喪失實質約束管制的效果卻沒有等於主管機關的職責積極採取適當作為"},{"start":676.821,"end":702.24,"text":"這是審計部的意見這個意見看過沒有委員這個你沒有換紅線的部分他有說因為我們考量到是巴德外意見的考量是辦理解約並重新發包有關工程結算及雜標作業時間可能仍需一年以上作業時間這是part 2的問題嗎對不是這個是巴德外意見為什麼沒有這個解約來做但是我們先從一個部分一個部分來嘛審計部說"},{"start":704.397,"end":705.88,"text":"你們沒有採取積極"},{"start":708.311,"end":735.257,"text":"適當的作為審計部講的有沒有道理他的所謂的積極作為就是要我們解約嘛因為這一個所謂20%上限指的是食鹽的部分嘛如果他最後是工程項目沒有達到沒有完成驗收在那個部分就不是受這個20%上限所以對於審計部對你們的指責法務部不是很滿意就對了我們是認為說有不同的考量好 沒關係我們再看再往下看法務部跟審計部啊有哪些不一樣的考量"},{"start":736.57,"end":748.985,"text":"巴德外意見推動企業進駐要不要依照政府採購法辦理要還是不要法務部的意見是什麼需要依照政府採購法"},{"start":750.636,"end":778.584,"text":"這個委員 我想你調查過這個資料是所以呢 這個巴德外一間是依照這個公有財運所的相關規定是來交由市政府所以要不要適用政府採購法這個法令的體系是不一樣的所以要不要適用政府採購法他走那一邊是不適用政府採購法不適用政府採購法所以政府採購法第99條的規定就在規定BOT嘛"},{"start":781.377,"end":797.104,"text":"除其他法律令有規定者適用本法之規定啊這不只BOT對 你講得非常的好我們再往下看 審計部怎麼講該適用政府採購法 沒有適用政府採購法辦理過程違法審計部講的話很重喔"},{"start":800.714,"end":812.783,"text":"他說工程會函釋本案應該是用政府採購法第99條規定辦理過程險欠合法險欠合法就是不合法啦"},{"start":814.206,"end":837.854,"text":"工程會都函釋給你們了結果該監對於前刊函釋未施檢討改善卻自行認定符合政府採購法精神一直沒有為釋法的處理嚴重傷害政府採購的公開透明及公平性審計部的這個意見法務部接不接受"},{"start":839.195,"end":854.585,"text":"我想未來我們會盡可能的避免這個方式來做這個案子啊他給你的檢討意見啊說你顯然違法啊告訴你違法還不檢討改進繼續硬凹審計部寫的比較文言文實質的內容就是這樣嘛"},{"start":856.581,"end":882.499,"text":"我想我也看到這個裡面巴德外一間的主張是說他用所有公用不動產品所以我們應該聽巴德外一間的主張還是聽審計部加上工程會的主張巴德外一間現在是很大是不是審計部講什麼不重要工程會的含釋也不重要巴德外一間愛怎麼搞就怎麼搞是這樣嗎是嗎還是因為巴德外一間合作的對象是誰巴德外一間合作的對象是"},{"start":886.803,"end":912.084,"text":"桃園市政府鄭文燦主政的桃園市政府所以法務部不敢處理啊怎麼處理下去當初違法亂搞的就巴德外一間跟鄭文燦亂搞嘛我想這個跟這個沒有關係啦對啊那如果沒有關係的話 主要是適用法規的人的問題 審計部的糾正報告工程會的函式以及名詞我們的法務部啊 違法還不是檢討改進啊現在法務部願意檢討改進了嗎"},{"start":916.533,"end":941.162,"text":"我想我剛剛已經說明得很清楚了我們會來檢討 省立部會來檢討要不要追究責任看檢討的結果檢討需要多久需要多久請署長顧一下檢討不是講空話啦檢討需要多久 一個月夠不夠我跟委員報告一下剛剛委員您有提到的巴德外間有沒有盡責這個部分"},{"start":942.864,"end":959.622,"text":"不好意思喔 我跟你講剛剛我唸的每一個字都是審計部的報告審計部的報告說辦理過程顯現合法就是不合法嘛接下來又再講誰未失據與檢討改善這也是審計部講的啊這不是我黃國昌講的啊"},{"start":963.93,"end":976.101,"text":"審計部白紙黑字寫成這個樣子剛次長也說要檢討我現在的問題很具體檢討要多久怎麼追究責任需要多久 一個月夠不夠我等你一個月啊 夠不夠"},{"start":978.175,"end":990.263,"text":"還是沒有人要檢討所以不敢給時間因為八德該計劃一採購法都是計劃而且已經計劃到四億多了人家審計部說你違法嘛你繳證書說審計部講審計部的嘛現在這個就是問題了嘛現在是什麼繳證書很大審計部說你違法"},{"start":1003.049,"end":1028.218,"text":"你還不承認 還不處理剛市長說要檢討嘛那檢討需要多久 我只剩最後這個問題對啦 我們本來就會需要多久一部的查核意見會做出相應的檢討需要多久這個部分 因為八德外監還有矯正所需要作業期程是 需要多久我們原則上希望一兩個月內來提出好不好一個月好不好兩個月可以嗎兩個月太久了 就一個月好不好"},{"start":1029.939,"end":1032.604,"text":"因為我剛剛請這個財政署來提啦多久給你財 我代你尊重一個半月啦好 一個半月 好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":344,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時28分）謝謝召委，麻煩有請法務部次長、矯正署署長。"],["主席：請黃次長、周署長。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["周署長輝煌：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好。次長，接下來的問題如果你不熟的話沒有關係，請署長代答，不用先得到我的許可。"],["黃次長世杰：好，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：之前法務部說智慧安全監所，好萊塢大片將成真，搞大內宣非常的會，我也希望智慧監所能夠真的落實，能夠實現，總是一個願景嘛！但是八德外役監花了納稅人將近29億元，有一個新建統包的工程案，署長應該還記得，之前我已經問過這件事，本來竣工日期第一階段是2022年3月2號，第二階段是2022年11月9號，現在是2025年，請教到今天為止竣工了沒有？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，現在第一階段是竣工，第二階段還沒竣工，但是我們預定希望在年底前可以竣工驗收完畢。"],["黃委員國昌：2022年11月9號要竣工，搞到現在2025年沒有竣工，我上一次問你的時候，你還記不記得你告訴我什麼時候要竣工？還記不記得我們在這邊曾經有過的質詢，你還記不記得？忘記了？"],["周署長輝煌：那時候我們是希望在上半年。"],["黃委員國昌：上半年？"],["周署長輝煌：就是希望在6月份的時候……"],["黃委員國昌：來、來，你那個時候跟我講什麼？你那時候跟我講2024年年底要完成，我有記錯嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：2024年，因為它有一些經營權的爭議，包括提和解、仲裁……"],["黃委員國昌：那是廠商的問題嘛！關我們什麼事？那個是廠商的問題嘛！不管廠商是A經營、B經營、C經營、D經營，跟政府之間簽的契約，你敢得標，你就要履約嘛！搞到現在喔！我進一步看2025年上半年，你去年跟我講年底要完成，部長今年提給司法及法制委員會的報告說上半年要完成，上半年有完成嗎？現在應該是已經要下半年了吧！"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們八德也儘量努力來完成。"],["黃委員國昌：儘量努力嘛！"],["周署長輝煌：有一些因素不是……"],["黃委員國昌：我們來看一下你們要怎麼樣努力啦！矯正署發函給八德外役監說不要再延期了，這是你們發的函嘛！"],["周署長輝煌：是。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候？7月中要竣工，做得到嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：現在應該是希望年底……"],["黃委員國昌：不要希望啦！做不做得到就給一個乾脆的答案，現在要到年底喔？"],["周署長輝煌：年底完成竣工驗收。"],["黃委員國昌：繼續拖就對了，你們矯正署自己都退縮了喔！你不是發函給八德外役監7月15號要完成？"],["周署長輝煌：並不是退縮，現在是第6次他們有提行政院工程會做和解，所謂的仲裁……"],["黃委員國昌：跟它竣不竣工有什麼關係？"],["周署長輝煌：因為有一些涉及到所謂驗收的問題，他們的建築師有一些……"],["黃委員國昌：來，我們來看驗收的問題，花了納稅人29億，2022年就應該要完工了，法務部現在是搞大內宣很會，媒體怎麼會出這種報導？我看了都覺得很驚訝，你要搞大內宣沒有關係，你要作秀擺拍也沒有關係，事情要做到嘛！事情沒做到，還搞大內宣、作秀擺拍，好萊塢大片，納稅人看了會淌血，29億耶！不是29萬，29億耶！29億給你們預算，搞成這個樣子喔！來，搞成什麼樣子我們接下來看，2025年6月2號審計部查核意見，法務部有沒有收到？"],["周署長輝煌：有收到了。"],["黃委員國昌：不僅法務部收到，我掌握的東西連行政院秘書長都收到了，查核意見講什麼？該監分別於112年1到3月辦理初驗，112年是2023年，早就過了應該竣工的期間，驗收不合格項目多達2,279項，不是2項、不是22項，是2,279項，最關鍵的是什麼？到今年3月底，部分驗收日已耗損一年八個月餘，還有部分缺失21項及初驗缺失9項，共計30個缺失沒有完成改善，重點是根本沒有辦法發揮智慧監獄的功能，這是審計部說的。法務部接到審計部這樣的審計報告做了什麼檢討、做了什麼究責？請法務部次長，還是收到這個文了以後看一看丟到旁邊，反正審計部來歸審計部來，言者諄諄，聽者藐藐？"],["黃次長世杰：委員，誠如委員螢幕上所顯示的，驗收的過程就是我們找出它的不合格項目，然後逐項要求廠商依照合約履行改善，所以從112年的二千多項，到114年3月底，那是第一階段的工程，已經只剩下30項，當然有缺失尚未改善，依照合約精神，我們都會督促矯正署……"],["黃委員國昌：依照合約精神督促？"],["黃次長世杰：督促八德外役監來要求廠商……"],["黃委員國昌：你依照合約精神可以做什麼？"],["黃次長世杰：就是要求它要把這些缺失改善完，才可以完成驗收。"],["黃委員國昌：造成的延遲、造成國家的損失，誰要負責？"],["黃次長世杰：這個部分因為廠商也有提工程會的調解，所以我們也在跟它……"],["黃委員國昌：這兩碼子事嘛，這是廠商的救濟。"],["黃次長世杰：對，但是我們是……"],["黃委員國昌：現在我的問題是站在法務部的立場該做什麼、可以做什麼？"],["黃次長世杰：對，因為我們跟它是合約關係，所以我們也是依照合約精神來要求。"],["黃委員國昌：依照合約可以做什麼？不要講空的啦！"],["黃次長世杰：現在階段就是還在調解，調解如果不成，未來可能會研議是否進行訴訟。"],["黃委員國昌：研議進行訴訟，對啊，你要跟它要求什麼？你的訴訟標的、訴之聲明是什麼？"],["黃次長世杰：就是如果契約不履行的話，依照合約可能有違約金或是其他賠償等等之類的。"],["黃委員國昌：次長，這個案子你有掌握嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：我有初步掌握。"],["黃委員國昌：我看你很不熟，我為什麼說你很不熟？我接下來帶你看，為什麼你剛剛講的全部都是空的，在同一份審計報告裡面全部都點出來了。我們往下看，三道門人臉辨識系統的缺失改善完了沒有？這是上次我去八德外役監自己拍的照，那個時候你們跟我說要花一點時間改善，三道門很重要，防止脫逃，三道門不能同時開，三道門的缺失現在改善完成沒有？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，他們有送我們這邊，但是我們要以比較高標準的……"],["黃委員國昌：比較高標準，不用高標準啦……"],["周署長輝煌：頻率比較多而且穩定……"],["黃委員國昌：正常可以發揮功能的，可以嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：所以我們現在還沒有讓它驗收通過，因為我們要觀察……"],["黃委員國昌：換言之這個缺失還沒有改善完嘛，對不對？針對問題回答就好了。"],["周署長輝煌：它有送上來，但我們覺得要在高頻率、穩定的狀況下沒問題，我們才會驗收通過。"],["黃委員國昌：所以缺失還沒有改善完成，對不對？是不是？針對問題回答沒有這麼困難嘛。"],["周署長輝煌：現在還沒有核定通過。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有改善完成就沒有改善完成嘛！這是我去年的質詢內容，我已經一而再、再而三提醒法務部，我開始追的事情一定會一路追下去，29億，我再提醒一次，29億啊！監視器缺失改善完了嗎？這也是我去年問的。"],["周署長輝煌：監視器的部分是算弱電的部分，我們有要求，廠商有進度，但是進度不如理想。"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，就繼續拖嘛。為什麼廠商敢擺爛？為什麼超過合約的期限這麼久？我繼續給你拖嘛，反正我們的法務部、我們的矯正署遇到這樣的問題，有缺失來改善、有缺失來改善，我繼續拖、繼續混，今天如果遲延一個月，我用這麼嚴厲的態度來質問法務部，可能是我不夠厚道，我再提醒一次，2022年就要竣工，現在是2025年，你們每一次跟立法院講的、提到立法院的報告是一而再、再而三跳票，為什麼這個廠商敢這麼皮啊？因為損害賠償以契約價金總額20%為上限，超過20%啦！現在早就超過20%，你能拿我怎麼樣，你根本拿我沒皮條，我繼續遲延下去還是20%。連審計部都看不下去了，審計部怎麼講，我唸給你聽，該監，講的就是八德外役監，該監明明知道契約所訂延遲履約罰則因達計罰上限，已失實質約束管制效果，卻沒有本於主管機關職責，積極採取適當作為。這是審計部的意見，這個意見看過沒有？"],["黃次長世杰：委員，你沒有劃紅線的部分，這是八德外役監的考量，它有說因為考量到辦理解約並重新發包有關工程結算及招標作業時間恐需一年以上作業時間……"],["黃委員國昌：這是part 2的問題嘛。"],["黃次長世杰：不是，這是八德外役監為什麼沒有直接解約來做。"],["黃委員國昌：是，這個我了解，但是我們一個部分、一個部分來，審計部說你們沒有採取積極適當的作為，審計部講的有沒有道理？"],["黃次長世杰：它的積極作為就是要我們解約，因為所謂的20%上限指的是遲延的部分，如果最後是工程項目沒有達標、沒有完成驗收，在那個部分就不是20%上限。"],["黃委員國昌：所以審計部對你們的指責，法務部不是很滿意就對了？"],["黃次長世杰：我們是認為有不同的考量。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒關係，我們再往下看法務部跟審計部有哪些不一樣的考量，八德外役監推動企業進駐要不要依照政府採購法辦理？要還是不要，法務部的意見是什麼？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，當然需要依照……"],["黃委員國昌：需要依照政府採購法？"],["黃次長世杰：委員，我想你調查過這個資料，八德外役監是依照國有財產署的相關規定來交由市政府辦理……"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以要不要適用政府採購法？"],["黃次長世杰：這個法令的體系是不一樣的。"],["黃委員國昌：所以要不要適用政府採購法？"],["黃次長世杰：它走的那一邊是不適用政府採購法。"],["黃委員國昌：不適用政府採購法，政府採購法第九十九條的規定就是在規定BOT，除其他法律另有規定者，適用本法之規定。"],["黃次長世杰：這不只BOT。"],["黃委員國昌：對，你講得非常好，我們再往下看審計部怎麼講，該適用政府採購法沒有適用政府採購法，辦理過程違法，審計部講的話很重，它說工程會函釋本案應該適用政府採購法第九十九條規定，辦理過程顯欠合法，顯欠合法就是不合法，工程會都函釋給你們了，結果該監對於前開函釋未思據以檢討改善，卻自行認定符合政府採購法精神，一直未為適法處理，嚴重傷害政府採購之公開透明及公平性。審計部的這個意見，法務部接不接受？"],["黃次長世杰：我想未來我們會儘可能避免以這個方式來做，但是這是之前做的。"],["黃委員國昌：這個案子它給你的檢討意見是說你顯然違法，告訴你違法，還不檢討改進，繼續硬拗，審計部寫得比較文言文，實質的內容就是這樣嘛！法務部接不接受？"],["黃次長世杰：委員，你看到這裡面有寫到，八德外役監的主張是說它用國有公用不動產管理收益原則來辦理。"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以我們應該聽八德外役監的主張，還是聽審計部加上工程會的主張？八德外役監現在是很大是不是？審計部講什麼不重要，工程會的函釋也不重要……"],["黃次長世杰：……我們會來檢討改進。"],["黃委員國昌：八德外役監愛怎麼搞就怎麼搞，是這樣嗎？是嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：我想我們會來檢討審計部提供給我們的意見。"],["黃委員國昌：還是因為八德外役監合作的對象是桃園市政府，鄭文燦主政的桃園市政府，所以法務部不敢處理，怎麼處理下去？當初違法亂搞的就是八德外役監跟鄭文燦亂搞嘛！"],["黃次長世杰：我想跟這個沒有關係，主要是適用法規的問題。"],["黃委員國昌：如果沒有關係的話，審計部的糾正報告、工程會的函釋已經明指我們的法務部違法，還不思檢討改進……"],["黃次長世杰：我想沒有這回事。"],["黃委員國昌：現在法務部願意檢討改進了嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：我想我剛剛已經說明得很清楚，我們會來檢討審計部給我們的意見。"],["黃委員國昌：會來檢討，要不要追究責任？"],["黃次長世杰：那要看檢討的結果。"],["黃委員國昌：檢討需要多久？"],["黃次長世杰：請署長評估一下。"],["黃委員國昌：檢討不是講空話啦，檢討需要多久？一個月夠不夠？"],["周署長輝煌：我跟委員報告一下，剛剛委員你有提到八德外役監有沒有盡責這個部分，八德外役監已經……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，我跟你講，剛剛我唸的每一個字都是審計部的報告……"],["主席：署長講沒關係。"],["黃委員國昌：審計部的報告說辦理過程顯欠合法，就是不合法嘛，接下來又再講說未思據以檢討改善，這也是審計部講的，這不是我黃國昌講的啊！審計部白紙黑字寫成這個樣子，剛剛次長也說要檢討，我現在的問題很具體，檢討要多久？怎麼追究責任？需要多久，一個月夠不夠？我等你一個月啊，夠不夠？還是沒有要檢討，所以不敢給時間？"],["周署長輝煌：因為八德該計罰的，依採購法都是計罰，已經計罰到四億多了，就是剛剛委員提20%的上限。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你繼續再堅持嘛，人家審計部說你違法，那你矯正署說審計部講審計部的，現在這就是問題了，現在是什麼？矯正署很大，審計部說你違法，你還不承認？還不處理？剛剛次長說要檢討嘛，檢討需要多久？我只剩最後這個問題。"],["黃次長世杰：對啦，我們本來就會依照審計部的查核意見做出相應的檢討。"],["黃委員國昌：是，需要多久？"],["黃次長世杰：這個部分，因為八德外役監還有矯正署需要作業期程。"],["黃委員國昌：是，需要多久？"],["黃次長世杰：我們原則上希望1、2個月內來提出，好不好？"],["黃委員國昌：1個月，好不好？"],["黃次長世杰：2個月可以嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：2個月太久了，就1個月，好不好？"],["黃次長世杰：因為我剛剛是請矯正署來提啦！"],["黃委員國昌：召委，多久讓你裁，我尊重你。"],["主席：一個半月啦！"],["黃委員國昌：好，一個半月，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，可以啦，好不好？"],["黃次長世杰：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來我們請林倩綺委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-21","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","羅智強","沈發惠","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","蘇清泉"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、司法院及衛生福利部就「現行獄政與受刑人處遇機制之制\n度檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146201_00011"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}