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主席我們請那個國發會副主委還有交通部次長詹副主委 林次長好 兩位好委員好今天的議題這個非常重要因高齡化社會這個是我們確實是一個非常高齡然後又是一個少子女化非常非常嚴重"},{"start":48.803,"end":55.969,"text":"今天國發會的報告裡面特別提到整合公司資源提升偏鄉運輸生活體驗這個中間階段裡面"},{"start":64.849,"end":82.516,"text":"例如交通部公務及以台東縣政府啟動TTGO花東溫馨接送EA媒體服務透過煤核機制整合在地巴士、計程車、租賃車及企業公益車輛等多元"},{"start":83.736,"end":111.34,"text":"運具的支援補貼民眾車資提供點到點的接駁到載的服務這個政策很好重點是這個漏水的問題第一個這個部分已經那時候是為了因應地震之後然後提出的這樣的一個很好的一個方案但是現在已經已經調整了"},{"start":112.911,"end":129.711,"text":"你自己的報告裡面解決目前台東地區的運輸需求缺口只有談到台東了本來是花東對不對花東溫馨接受所以這個部分"},{"start":131.13,"end":150.882,"text":"這個現在只有台東偏鄉交通最後一里路了所以這個部分是一個資訊互相交通部跟國發會的資訊要互相的交通部的報告裡面提到這個"},{"start":152.674,"end":170.206,"text":"公路總級以192個鄉鎮共493條路線,包含62個偏鄉239條路線,推動其中幸福巴士以通車共97個鄉鎮區,共326條路線,含53個偏鄉196條路線,幸福小房以通車95個鄉鎮區,"},{"start":182.834,"end":207.382,"text":"共167條路線含9個偏鄉共43條路線全國偏鄉第7公路公共運輸含概率達94.4%這個交通部啊 社長啊這個這樣的寫法這個好像這個績效非常非常的棒這樣子含概率達到94.4%"},{"start":210.97,"end":238.44,"text":"真的是這樣嗎所以尤其是就偏鄉來講我們是偏鄉我們偏鄉的一看這個不是這樣嘛對不對如果我們光看你的那個幸福小黃含9個偏鄉就9個而已嘛對不對然後呢那個你的那個幸福84含53個偏鄉我們偏鄉還不止這些嘛然後偏鄉"},{"start":240.781,"end":252.745,"text":"這個也有很多不同的那個如果是以我們村與村之間部落與部落之間那根本就沒有啊所以這個部分涵蓋率達到94.4%這個用詞還是要去注意了需要回應嗎"},{"start":264.288,"end":283.034,"text":"基本上偏鄉的定義是根據內政部的定義我知道這個我知道我是老公務員知道沒關係您的意思就是說可能偏鄉一個區一條線靠過去也算一個所以我想我們還是以他的普及力來看就我們來說是一個非常不可思議的沒有啊哪裡有對不對"},{"start":285.535,"end":309.653,"text":"會產生這樣的一個好我們就講這個幸福巴士27條路線當然這個是你們的努力包括縣政府我們共同的一起去推動都是要肯定的該肯定的我們要肯定好我們看這個幸福小黃事實上幸福小黃的政策是應該積極加強的推動為什麼呢"},{"start":313.757,"end":337.78,"text":"這個幸福巴士因為它畢竟它不是每個小時對不對所以反而是幸福小黃會更貼切人民的需要尤其是長者的需要尤其是這個非常弱勢的需要我們看這個花蓮縣幸福小黃你看最下面的查無資料"},{"start":339.967,"end":350.972,"text":"對不對?系統上查護資料我們確實是沒有啊好我們看這個台東縣幸福小行有啊部分成功延頻"},{"start":354.543,"end":374.128,"text":"還差很遠最需要的偏鄉還是有差的一個很大很大的落差就舉這兩個例子所以這個我們要努力的地方還很多還是需要非常非常的要去加油當然經費就是一個問題經費所以國發會要支持"},{"start":380.124,"end":403.39,"text":"對不對 你要整體的一個政策然後經費的這個提供都是需要國發會來去預祝所以這個部分要繼續努力 好不好好 我們看這個時間的關係今天台鐵票價 今天開始漲價"},{"start":405.519,"end":420.685,"text":"這個是對我們偏鄉整個花蓮縣台東縣而言這個偏鄉又是一個非常非常嚴重的一個問題所以今天開始漲價我們看這個"},{"start":425.114,"end":446.181,"text":"交通部交通部所提出來的花東會員過票點數是透過會員我們今天的主題是什麼高齡者對不對高齡者就沒有會員沒有加入會員對不對高齡者我們今天的主題高齡會員都沒有"},{"start":449.039,"end":467.674,"text":"對不對 如何去想得到這樣的一個會員的點數 沒有嘛所以這個部分就是一個要去處理的部分本事業曾經建議我們現在就UV很多都會去就學就業的"},{"start":470.943,"end":499.931,"text":"你現在只有現在花蓮台東的戶籍在那邊的但是在花東就學就業的他要回去就沒有啊對不對然後呢他的戶籍不在花蓮台東但是在花蓮東華大學就學到台東大學就學的也沒有啊所以這個在花蓮台東工作的好不容易他希望到台東工作把人留下來結果也沒有"},{"start":501.411,"end":526.05,"text":"所以涉及到还是经费国家会副主委还是涉及到还是经费请问一下次长你知道这个你现在的政策花工会员购票点数这个优惠经费从哪里来包园台铁的部分我们这一部分有一部分是从TPAS这边来"},{"start":526.775,"end":550.265,"text":"那個 那另外有些是花東對 票收去回饋花東基金的部分我跟您報告啊那個不是只有UV都可以因為只要涉及在花東的都可以所以不是只有UV出生在花東你弄錯我的意思了現在的 你們的規定現在的規定是第二個"},{"start":552.315,"end":566.522,"text":"花蓮縣台東縣附籍在那邊的只有附籍在那邊現在你看你現在的是只有也不是第二點的就是你現在的只有附籍在花蓮縣跟台東縣的才可以"},{"start":567.403,"end":591.943,"text":"然後我的公文是要建議擴大要擴大的意思了是這個意思所以這個公文因為你的目前的做法就是只有針對戶籍跟戶籍在花蓮縣跟台東縣的我的意思是要擴大的意思而經費之前我也執行過國發會希望用花東基金因為"},{"start":593.339,"end":620.491,"text":"你要交通部臨時找這些錢也很難啦然後也不應該有台鐵來吸收啦也不應該有他所以我才說用花東基金既然是要用花東基金那個交通部就不要給限收在富吉在花蓮跟台東的因為你以前的政策是什麼呢你的那個乘車的政策就是"},{"start":621.448,"end":630.298,"text":"副UV都算精細啊所以這個部分是要請重點還是錢嘛還是經費請謝謝這個這個國發會副主委一直點頭點頭就是同意對不對不要搖頭不要搖頭"},{"start":643.537,"end":667.811,"text":"跟委員報告 謝謝委員的指導您提到花東基金的部分因為這個可能還要跟花蓮跟台東縣政府他們都贊成據我們了解好像他們有一些意見所以這部分是不是花東基金的部分可能還要再跟他們討論這也先跟委員報告我非常清楚花東基金從我當立委那年開始的"},{"start":670.755,"end":692.606,"text":"102年開始的所以有部分是屬於屬於中央中央去調配的那個部分呢有沒有有嗎中央調配的那個部分有地方政府負責的也有中央負責的那個部分好不好好謝謝好謝謝林一林委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":459,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（10時11分）主席，我們請國發會副主委及交通部次長。"],["主席：詹副主委、林次長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：兩位好。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：今天這個「因應高齡化社會，我國智慧公共運具發展及目標」的議題非常重要，我們確實是一個非常高齡且少子女化非常非常嚴重的社會。","今天國發會的報告中，在「整合公私資源提升偏鄉運輸生活體驗」的部分，有特別提到「如交通部公路局與臺東縣政府啟動『TTGO 花東溫馨接送預約媒合服務』」，係透過媒合機制，整合在地巴士、計程車、租賃車及企業公益車輛等多元運具資源，補貼民眾車資，提供點到點的『接駁到宅』服務。」這個政策很好，重點是落實的問題。第一個，這個服務當初是為了因應地震之後，然後提出這樣一個很好的方案，但是現在已經調整了，你自己的報告裡面提到這是「解決目前臺東地區的運輸需求缺口」，只有談到臺東，本來是花東溫馨接送預約媒合服務嘛，對不對？現在這個就是補足臺東偏鄉交通的最後一哩路，所以這個部分交通部跟國發會的資訊要互相的整合。","另外，在交通部的報告提到「公路局已於192個鄉鎮共493條路線（包含62個偏鄉，239條路線）推動，其中幸福巴士已通車共97個鄉鎮區，共326條路線（含53個偏鄉，196條路線）、幸福小黃已通車95個鄉鎮區，共167條路線（含9個偏鄉，共43條路線），全國偏鄉地區公路公共運輸涵蓋率達94.4%。」次長，交通部報告中的這種寫法好像績效非常非常的棒，涵蓋率達到94.4%，真的是這樣嗎？尤其是就偏鄉來講，我們偏鄉的人一看就不是這樣嘛！光以幸福小黃來說，已通車的偏鄉就只有9個而已嘛，對不對？然後幸福巴士已通車的偏鄉是53個，但我們偏鄉不只這些啊，而且偏鄉也有很多不同的情況，如果是我們村與村之間、部落與部落之間，那根本就沒有嘛！所以這個部分的涵蓋率達到94.4%，這個用詞還是要注意啦！次長需要回應嗎？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，基本上偏鄉的定義是根據內政部的定義。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道，這個我知道，我是老公務員了。"],["林次長國顯：沒關係，您的意思就是說，可能偏鄉一個區域，一條線靠過去也算一個啦，所以我想我們還是以它的普及率來看，這是初步的統計結果。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對啊！這個涵蓋率是一個非常不可思議的數字，因為沒有啊！哪裡有？對不對？會產生這樣的一個質疑。","花蓮縣的幸福巴士有27條路線，當然這是你們的努力，包括縣政府，我們共同一起去推動，這都是要給予肯定的，該肯定的我們要肯定啦！但是幸福小黃的部分，事實上幸福小黃的政策應該要積極的加強推動，為什麼呢？因為幸福巴士畢竟不是每個小時都有車班，所以反而是幸福小黃會更貼切人民的需要，尤其是長者的需要及弱勢者的需要。我們來看新花蓮縣的幸福小黃，你看這張簡報，最下面是「查無資料」，對不對？系統上「查無資料」，我們確實是沒有啊！而臺東縣的幸福小黃是有的，但也只有部分鄉鎮，只有成功鎮跟延平鄉，所以涵蓋率還差很遠，最需要的偏鄉還是有很大很大的落差。我就舉這兩個例子，所以這個部分我們要努力的地方還很多，還是需要非常非常的加油。當然，經費就是一個問題啦，所以國發會要支持，對不對？除了整體的政策規劃，還要有經費的提供，所以需要國發會來挹注，這個部分要繼續努力，好不好？","因為時間的關係，我們來看下一個問題。臺鐵票價今天開始漲價了，這個對我們偏鄉，對整個花蓮縣、臺東縣而言，又是一個非常非常嚴重的問題，票價從今天開始漲價了。我們看到交通部所提出來的優惠措施是花東會員購票點數加倍送，但這是會員才能享有的優惠，而我們今天的主題是什麼呢？高齡者，對不對？高齡者就沒有加入會員啊！我們今天的主題是要因應高齡化社會，但高齡者連會員都不是，如何去獲得這樣的會員點數呢？沒有嘛！所以這個就是要去處理的部分。","本席也曾經建議優惠對象應該比照花東地區實名制訂票，增加身分證字號為U、V開頭者，現在有很多人到都會區就學就業，現在只有設籍於花蓮及臺東的人才能享有優惠，但是在花東就學就業的人也很多，他們要回去就沒有優惠啊，對不對？例如有些學生的戶籍不在花蓮、臺東，但是在花蓮東華大學就學、在臺東大學就學，這些人也沒有優惠啊！還有在花蓮、臺東工作的人，好不容易有人願意到臺東工作，我們把人留下來了，結果他們也沒有優惠啊！所以涉及到的還是經費問題啦，國發會副主委，這還是涉及到經費的問題。","請問一下次長，你知道現在這個政策，花東會員購票點數優惠措施的經費從哪裡來？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，臺鐵的部分有一部分是從TPASS這邊來，另外有一些是花東，對，到時候去回饋花東基金的部分……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，這個是我上次……"],["林次長國顯：我也跟您報告，只要設籍在花東的都可以，不是只有出生在花東身分證字號U、V的才可以。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不，你弄錯我的意思了。現在你們的規定，現在的規定是第(二)點，戶籍在花蓮縣、臺東縣那邊的，只有戶籍在那邊的才可以，你看現在也不是第(二)點，就是現在的規定是只有戶籍在花蓮縣跟臺東縣的才可以，然後我的公文是建議要擴大的意思，這是我這個公文的意思，因為目前的作法就是只有針對戶籍在花蓮縣跟臺東縣的，但我的意思是要擴大的意思。","至於經費，之前我也質詢過國發會，希望用花東基金，因為要交通部臨時找這些錢也很難，然後也不應該由臺鐵來吸收，所以我才說用花東基金。既然要用花東基金，交通部就不要只限縮戶籍在花蓮跟臺東的，因為以前的政策是什麼呢？那個乘車的政策就是身分證字號U、V開頭的都算進去，所以這個部分重點還是錢嘛，還是經費。我也要謝謝國發會的副主委一直點頭，點頭就是同意，對不對？啊，搖頭，你不要搖頭啊！"],["詹副主任委員方冠：跟委員報告，謝謝委員的指導，您提到花東基金的部分，這個可能還要跟花蓮、跟臺東縣政府……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：他們都贊成啦！"],["詹副主任委員方冠：據我們了解，好像他們有一些意見，所以花東基金的部分可能還要再跟他們討論，這點先跟委員報告。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不、不，我非常清楚，花東基金是從我當立委那年102年開始的，所以有部分是屬於中央去調配的，有沒有？有嘛！中央調配的那個部分。有地方政府負責的，也有中央負責的部分，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，呂玉玲委員詢答結束後休息5分鐘。"],["主席（鄭委員正鈐代）：我們接下來請謝衣鳯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-17","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","邱志偉","陳超明","賴瑞隆","李坤城","蔡易餘","翁曉玲","葉元之","謝龍介","邱鎮軍","張嘉郡","徐欣瑩","邱議瑩","翁曉玲"],"page_start":337,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員、交通部首長及國家科學及技術委員會首長就「因應\n高齡化社會，我國智慧公共運具發展及目標」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146401_00007"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}