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謝謝第8位"},{"start":2193.303,"end":2218.496,"text":"開南大學法律系兼任副教授蔣桂美蔣教授謝謝還有到來的嗎其他還沒有到那我們接著我們來介紹行政機關中選會副主委陳朝健陳副主委內政部政務次長董建宏董次長"},{"start":2222.559,"end":2236.51,"text":"司法院行政訴訟及懲戒廳專門委員謝家麟、謝專委法務部法治司調部辦事檢察官楊石宇、楊檢察官"},{"start":2241.53,"end":2256.764,"text":"我們今天公聽會的程序如下我們會先請部會簡短報告後再請專家學者發言依出席簽到順序為原則每位發言時間是8分鐘"},{"start":2258.12,"end":2274.391,"text":"本院委員要發言的請至主席台登記在兩位專家學者發言後會安排一位本院委員發言每位委員發言時間是5分鐘最後我們再由與會的機關代表回應說明"},{"start":2276.172,"end":2284.037,"text":"發言台正前方的燈號是倒數計時發言時間結束前一分鐘按鈴一聲發言時間結束會按鈴兩聲我們現在來請部會報告首先請中選會陳副主委朝見報告"},{"start":2299.335,"end":2328.85,"text":"早起委員各位委員各位專家學者各位女士各位先生還有機關代表大家早安總選會這邊僅就今天由內政委員會所舉辦的第二場次公投法公聽會簡略說明如後那說明的這個依序是按照提綱的一個提示來做簡要的一個說明"},{"start":2329.741,"end":2348.73,"text":"第一是現行公投法將公投與大選分開辦理是為了讓成案後的公民投票案於辦理階段可以獲得更為理性的思辨空間以及"},{"start":2350.051,"end":2378.456,"text":"有更合理的選務籌備期間更可以讓選民投票權人經由充分的理性思辨在公投與大選分開辦理的情況下投下真正的民意實際上瑞士是實施公民投票極為平反的典型國家代表國家"},{"start":2380.134,"end":2395.182,"text":"瑞士就是將公投與大選分開辦理而且每一次的公民投票案也都有它案件數的限制那不僅如此"},{"start":2396.488,"end":2422.885,"text":"立法院在上個禮拜所舉辦的第一場公投法公聽會裡頭諸多的專家學者包括我們在場的蘇紫橋蘇教授他就指出全國有91個民主國家其中60個國家就是將公投與大選分開辦理"},{"start":2425.776,"end":2449.427,"text":"第22021年曾經辦理過一場公民投票其中有一項主題就是您是否支持公投綁大選的這一件公投案當時的投票結果是不通過的在還沒有其他的公投案"},{"start":2449.966,"end":2466.176,"text":"加以否決之前,理應尊重多數的民意,以符合憲法所稱之民意政治,主權在民的決定,我們可以尊重民主。"},{"start":2467.947,"end":2490.856,"text":"第3是有關投票率的一個提升與否,理當從宣傳做起,而非藉由公投綁大選來提升投票率選務機關在現行的法律裡頭所要扮演的這個角色"},{"start":2491.883,"end":2510.051,"text":"是可以透過電視的頻道來提供時段供公投案正反雙方代表依法來表示意見或是進行辯論也編印了全國性公民投票"},{"start":2511.055,"end":2528.571,"text":"公報,編印了電子公報並且在中選會的網站建置了全國性公民投票專區來鼓勵選民進行投票"},{"start":2529.99,"end":2555.145,"text":"至於公投案正反雙方代表的一個動員以及選民或投票權人對於公投議題認同與否才是投票率能否提升的關鍵相反的主要的這個民主國家有三分之二是將公投與大選分開辦理"},{"start":2557.171,"end":2575.451,"text":"其目的就是要讓對人的投票跟對事的投票可以來分開舉行實際上民主政治也應該是以大義民主為主"},{"start":2576.311,"end":2603.58,"text":"而不是以公民投票來直接取代議會政治所以就選務機關的立場來說我們認為公投與大選分開辦理有其實意且符合國際主流那如同聯署如果我們要鼓勵"},{"start":2604.81,"end":2626.153,"text":"公民來參與公投的聯署是可以透過公投電子聯署系統來運用而不是藉由其他的方式來影響或改變選民原本爭議存在的政治傾向"},{"start":2627.374,"end":2647.54,"text":"有關公投電子連署的系統已經在今年4月的時候正式上線也歡迎公投提案的連署人或其支持者在第二階段成案之後來加以運用第四個討論提綱是"},{"start":2650.41,"end":2667.546,"text":"中選會在2019年之後就進行了許多的選務革新包括每個投開票所降低了投票全人的人數包括了增加投開票所"},{"start":2668.53,"end":2696.13,"text":"也增加了圈票遮屏還分成兩組領票推動各式各樣的一個選務革新措施在公投與大選分開辦理之後過去以來的選舉過去以來的公投確實有助於政局的一個穩定"},{"start":2697.369,"end":2719.695,"text":"以及民主的鞏固藉由公投與大選的分開辦理更可以讓全體的選民、投票權人有更為理性的思辨空間其餘則如書面報告以上簡略說明謝謝大家"},{"start":2725.606,"end":2726.087,"text":"董事長"},{"start":2742.439,"end":2756.039,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生、各位在場的學者專家大家好首先本人代表本部感謝各位委員以及相關的學者專家對內政部業務推動的關注與指導"},{"start":2756.92,"end":2780.993,"text":"那麼我們今天在貴委員會召開有關公民投票法的公聽會那本部應邀列席是感同性那將今天公聽會所列討論提綱僅將本部相關意見依序說明首先針對公投法的修正是否有限制人民直接民權的實施以及有些迫切性的爭議是否難以及時反映那本部意見如下"},{"start":2781.613,"end":2810.372,"text":"事實上將公民投票與全國性選舉錯開並沒有限制或剝奪公民投票的權利那藉由公民投票舉辦的日期的固定其實讓人民反而可以預期各方對於公投議題會有更多的對話以及討論空間那人民有充分的時間去了解公投案的內容不至於因為選舉競爭而模糊了公投的議題或混淆公投的意旨而使公投的結果能夠確實符合民意那實現直接民權的價值"},{"start":2813.274,"end":2839.647,"text":"民意本身就是我們一個討論的民主社會的一個基本的重點那麼臺灣的公民意識發展成熟民意表達的管道也非常的眾多公民投票是其中的一種方式所以對於爭議的議題是不是僅僅只有公民投票事實上有很多其他的不同管道都可以反映民意我們也會徵詢股販徵詢社會不同的意見來作為政府機關施政的參考"},{"start":2840.808,"end":2858.734,"text":"那至於有關於憲法覆決的方式跟公投之間並不一致那也沒有限制的方法那是不是呈現所謂的法理不一致的部分那麼本部要表示本部報告認為憲法修正案、領土變更案的覆決"},{"start":2859.414,"end":2882.85,"text":"和全國性一般公民投票的無論在成案的過程辦理的過程或通過的門檻等等他們的規範本身就相應規範就各異而且沒有辦法在一個同樣的一個層次上因為一個為憲政議題一個為一般的人民日常事務是議題之討論那所以是否能夠互相援引為一致性的規範確實值得商榷"},{"start":2886.092,"end":2912.171,"text":"至於說在公投之後整個公民投票的參與的狀況投票率不高等等本部認為說這一些議題怎麼樣參與鼓勵公民的參與事實上在首先我們已經下修了許多的公投的門檻那麼在最近一次所公布的107年1月3號所公布的公投法的規定裡面已經將許多的連署標準都下降了"},{"start":2912.651,"end":2940.348,"text":"所以這樣子前開的這樣子的一個修正的大幅下降公投提案連署及通過的各項門檻事實上正是有利於民眾參與公投的意願以及機會也就是說我們讓人民有更多更廣泛的機會可以透過降低連署門檻的提出提出更多大家不同的意見藉由我們將時程的拉長給予大家更多的時間去討論也透過門檻的降低讓大家可以充分的去投票來表達意願"},{"start":2942.25,"end":2959.217,"text":"公民投票本身議題本身就是公民決定是否參與投票的關鍵也就是說公投議題是否為人民明確關切之議題或生命財產相關等等公民生活裡面關切之議題是公民願意是否前往投票表達的關鍵"},{"start":2961.199,"end":2963.781,"text":"公投法修法之後讓公投跟大選脫鉤"},{"start":2976.713,"end":3000.818,"text":"107年就2018年的地方公職九項九合一的選舉公投第7到第16案的同日舉行的過程裡面呢造成大家在相當程度上投票過程的混淆所以呢大院在108年的時候呢就透過修法將全國性公投跟大選分開那麼相關的選務的流程的改善還有公投綁大選所造成的一些困擾"},{"start":3001.658,"end":3014.162,"text":"那麼我們基於選務機關及公投法主管機關為中選會我們尊重中選會的相關意見那以上為本部相關的建議跟報告請各位學者專家及委員指教謝謝好 謝謝我們有關其他單位的報告請自行參閱並刊登公報我們接下來就請專家學者發言按照初期簽到的順序"},{"start":3032.591,"end":3036.869,"text":"我們第一位就請王一范教授"},{"start":3046.335,"end":3070.903,"text":"主席現場各位機關代表還有各位學者專家先進大家早安大家好我是成大政治系的助理教授王一范今天非常榮幸能夠受邀來到立法院來參加這個公民投票法的公聽會一樣不免俗的先稍微介紹一下我自己我去年從美國內部拉斯加大學奧馬拉分校拿到我公共行政的博士然後我的學士跟碩士的訓練都在台大完成"},{"start":3071.443,"end":3071.723,"text":"學術訓練公共行政"},{"start":3081.055,"end":3082.016,"text":"公聽會議：立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員"},{"start":3111.435,"end":3113.617,"text":"大議制度理念大議室跟人民是一個"},{"start":3135.256,"end":3162.574,"text":"分工專業分工的一個角色也就是說呢代議是替人民來行使國家相關的事務但是人民有權來做最後最終的決定所以呢在這個制度裡面代議是原則上應該窮盡大家的努力包括行政院立法院大家透過各自的職權努力去協調協商最後真的解決不了的事情再交給人民來做最後的決定也就是說這個就像公司裡面我們聘了很多不一樣的職員"},{"start":3163.414,"end":3177.399,"text":"老闆平常就會希望各個職員各個部門各司其職把自己的工作做完但是裡面有一些自己真的沒有辦法決定的最後才交到老闆這個程度來做決定也就是說如果我們認為已經明顯投票那當然就是在"},{"start":3178.493,"end":3179.934,"text":"Bounded RATIONALITY"},{"start":3199.873,"end":3200.393,"text":"人民共產黨與組織並非完全理性"},{"start":3226.704,"end":3251.361,"text":"各位只能依照我們可得的資訊來做自己效益最大化的決定也就是說我們每一個人或每一個機關在做決定的時候我們都有一個資訊處理能力的天花板在那裡也就是說當你今天要人民去處理一大堆的公投案的時候這個時候人民未必有這個能力跟這個時間來做這件事情所以就像前面講的我們應該盡量能夠透過代議制度完成的事情就透過代議制度完成"},{"start":3251.881,"end":3278.282,"text":"真的決定不了的再交給人民來做處理這個時候人民才有可能依照他們所得的資訊來做出最正確而且最效益最大化的決定所以如果在討論說到底要怎麼樣去提升公民投票的參與率那基本上就可以依照我們公共行政學裡面一個很重要的概念叫行為公共行政學也就是我們會結合心理學跟公共行政的視角來處理這些個人層次的議題"},{"start":3278.882,"end":3279.162,"text":"立法院第3會議"},{"start":3299.128,"end":3324.188,"text":"這個政策議題到底重不重要對我來講這個議題到底跟我切身相不相關如果相關我可能就有比較高的意願去做投票那當然這也包括說人民對於這些政策議題的了解到底是不是夠充分如果夠充分他可能也有更多的意願去參加這個投票那當然也包括所謂的路徑依賴也就是說他平常都有投票那他可能就會更願意去投票那當然也有文化慣習也就是說在這個國家裡面如果大家覺得"},{"start":3324.929,"end":3353.659,"text":"投票或公民參與是一件很重要的事情他可能就有更高的意願去投這個票所以呢在意願的程式來講人民會綜合考量各種的因素來決定自己是不是想要去參加這個公民投票但是呢想要跟實際上要做那又是另外一件事也就是說呢即便他有高的意願可是呢他在這個想要投票的時候他還要考量很多的全變因素所以全變因素就是說他這個可能跟投票議題本身沒有直接相關但是他"},{"start":3354.479,"end":3380.255,"text":"外部因素像說今天可能他家裡臨時有事他不能投票或是說他想投票但他個人突然身體不方便不能來或是今天天氣太熱天氣太冷不想投票都有在台灣第4選舉都有這樣的事情所以人民會進入他的議院裡面然後在思考各種的全面因素來做出他到底要不要參與公民投票這樣的一個參與行為所以我們透過行為公共行政學的視角從因素意願到行動來做"},{"start":3381.476,"end":3406.243,"text":"到底人民為什麼想要參加或不參加公民投票的一個思考當然在這個裡面我覺得最重要的可能是在政策議題的重要性跟人民的理解程度假設他對於這個議題他覺得很重要或是他夠了解他願意出來參加投票的可能性就會變得比較大一點所以如果我們未來要想要去提升公民投票參與率其實一個很重要的點是這個投票的議題到底對人民來講重不重要那也就像我前面講的"},{"start":3406.783,"end":3407.043,"text":"公民投票參與"},{"start":3424.724,"end":3452.255,"text":"公投是否要綁大選行政層面剛剛機關代表都已經做了相當這個詳述的敘述當然在憲法層面上等一下有更多的法學專家會來做指教我就以人民的視角來講就是說其實在做投票的時候對人民來講都是一個心理跟認知的負擔也就是說其實投這些票或者是認識瞭解這些議題對大家來講都要額外去花心力然後在投的時候又會怕說我到底投的對不對做的好不好"},{"start":3452.555,"end":3480.981,"text":"其實都是一種負擔那這個一樣回到前面的有限理性論基本上會去影響人類到底有沒有辦法做出理性抉擇的重要點也就是說當你今天如果這個公投他既要投議題又要投人的時候如果各種選舉綁在一起或者是這個公投議題超過10題20題那對人民來講這個負擔就會非常的大那這個會是一個投票的負擔可能還去影響人類的理性決策那當然也必須考量到所謂的制度信任性我們在2018年的時候"},{"start":3483.341,"end":3507.508,"text":"這個地方選舉跟共投並行那我們有發生這個邊開票邊投票的情形先不論這個東西到底對誰有利對誰不利基本上當這個制度有人民產生疑慮的時候那他投出來的結果或最終的決定就有可能會被人民產生疑慮那當制度有疑慮信任度低的時候那他做出來的決定可能被信任度也低這個對於公共治理來講他的影響是非常惡劣的"},{"start":3509.028,"end":3509.328,"text":"謝謝王教授"},{"start":3535.806,"end":3536.687,"text":"林佳和教授"},{"start":3553.146,"end":3556.088,"text":"公投是重要的,它也是民主體制所必須的,所以應該盡可能讓它發揮作用,但做法可能不是讓它隨意凌駕在建立民主之上。"},{"start":3572.637,"end":3595.553,"text":"公投的特徵在於公投非黑即白公投沒有妥協折衝保護少數兼顧不同利益尋求最適方案的空間所以各國的經驗公投很重要但不能毫無節制一定要有適當的審議甚至憲法審查例如義大利憲法法院我們在2019年的修法軍運的修法很可惜沒有認真討論這一題"},{"start":3599.276,"end":3620.654,"text":"讓2018124至少有三個公投案都有非常嚴重違憲的嫌疑那麼法律層次的公投我們公投法是法律層次的公投既然叫法律層次就要受到修正法律同樣的限制例如這次國民黨提案提到說如果公投做成了四年後不可以討論各國沒有人這樣做因為你在最極端的情況等於當屆的國會議員"},{"start":3622.836,"end":3645.623,"text":"不可以因為各國的國會議員都是四年一任在最極端的情況有可能公投一做成當屆國會議員就完全不能動只能到下一屆為什麼各國都是兩年後就可以國會去修法那麼修正之前公投的決定因為它是法律層次你只能用法律層次來討論同樣道理法律也不能違憲公投也當然如此"},{"start":3646.343,"end":3664.119,"text":"所以2019年6月的修法針對2018年1月24的一些經驗我們可以看到當時公投遭大選稀釋題目太多公與社會討論的時間過短甚至有一案28天就投票投票者經常陷入混亂甚至有候選人教導口訣帶小抄還有選務人員帶頭的這種例子"},{"start":3671.065,"end":3696.042,"text":"在我的觀點全世界各國公投的負面經驗在台灣一次全部發生公投直接變成選舉綁架的工具2019的修法是必要的但很可惜2019的修正是幅度等等極為令人遺憾的2021年的那一次公投社會論辯非常激烈先不論結果是不是很多人感到滿意他至少聚焦在那一題上"},{"start":3696.923,"end":3715.933,"text":"所以台灣公投實踐的經驗可以讓我們對於這一次那麼許多政黨的提案有一個比較清楚的一個看法但公投實踐的觀察必須作為我們今天討論修法一個非常重要的基礎台灣的特徵是全國公投多地方公投極少跟世界各國都相反"},{"start":3716.713,"end":3735.99,"text":"台灣的公投議題在不同機關的審議跟論辯非常少時間又短那麼議題層次單薄給社會交鋒的機會時間都短台灣從聯署到投票幾乎是全世界最短的如果在2018 2019之前的修法甚至是不可思議的短2019的修法"},{"start":3739.152,"end":3759.044,"text":"擴大到90天 仍然在世界上 非常罕見 沒有那麼短的台灣的公投濃縮假訊息 商業宣傳的影響甚巨愛爾蘭市直接禁止公投刊登廣告在台灣2018的投票 特別是關於性平同婚上國內俗稱為3億對300萬的戰爭 差距100倍的宣傳"},{"start":3764.008,"end":3785.906,"text":"幾乎沒有違憲審查相關議題排序設計也沒有形成過度政治動員不只傷害間接民主對於整個臺灣民意的形成只有走向更分裂沒有走向更整合的結果我想公投制度的改革面向非常多那不是今天的重點所以這八點我就不說明我就特別針對這次提案的四個重點"},{"start":3788.388,"end":3817.297,"text":"第一個當然是公投要不要綁大選我想優缺點大家都非常熟悉我就不說了某程度這確實是一個選擇體它不是真正的是非題但如果從這個角度來看從公投制度出發重點在於充分審議充分資訊創造與維繫得以形成公民自由意志的最大空間公投才能發揮功能某程度我們過度把焦點集中在哪一天投票而我們前面該有的配套換言之"},{"start":3817.657,"end":3845.843,"text":"如果前面配套具備哪一天包括在大選那一天如果不是重點那我們是不是把問題看錯了我們提供錯誤的答案選項也就是說如果有了充分的審議包括以時間堆砌起來的充分審議實證上不可能有太多題目一次投票瑞士就是這樣即便過多2018年也不會重現沒有錯各國公投投票率都偏低以歐洲幾乎"},{"start":3846.523,"end":3873.881,"text":"唯一的那麼全國性公投平凡的瑞士來講瑞士的公民投票投票率平均不到34%各國確實在思考如何提升那麼公投的投票率但如果台灣的政治實踐比較偏向保守非反動操縱民粹的政治力量主導公投例如這一次很多的這個公投綁大選的這個提議居然是針對大法官剛剛宣告的死刑的問題你就可以知道"},{"start":3874.261,"end":3875.123,"text":"大法官叫做體制內講最後一句話的人"},{"start":3889.585,"end":3909.01,"text":"法律層次不應該再有空間針對憲法已經決定的議題透過憲法法庭的判決所以綁大選我想在現狀下應該明顯必大於力維持2019年6月的修法應該是比較合適的當然不是沒有折衷可能如果一種有條件的脫鉤"},{"start":3909.83,"end":3937.583,"text":"把審議跟公告各拉長在6個月以上瑞士許多的機關審議公投案長達11個月以上讓制度上產生聚焦的效果就算跟大選一起辦題目也不會多不會重蹈2018年的弊病那麼選民除了針對人的投票以外對於事他也了然於心因為經過很久的時間我想是可以考慮的但是要有配套"},{"start":3938.143,"end":3963.445,"text":"那麼在民眾黨團的提案中如果公投題目標的相同或互斥應該意志於同意選票這個是對2018、1、2、4那一個選務上一個非常嚴重的問題當然那一次的結果並沒有產生太大的困難是因為互斥的題目一個過一個沒有過所以不必產生需要討論許多國家的做法"},{"start":3965.686,"end":3978.89,"text":"民眾黨的提案出發點是正確的但是要不要用成案的時間我個人比較保留各國幾乎都用抽籤決定因為你成案涉及到動員力量如果動員力量越強先讓他成案"},{"start":3979.73,"end":4006.241,"text":"那許多各國的經驗發現許多弄不清楚的選民往往就先勾第一個所以要用抽籤不要用成案成立應該要再考慮最後重大政策的公投如果三個月內沒有為必要的處置包括行政處分跟不同層級法規沒有執行機關首長應該辭職我想這個設計是嚴重的混淆法律與政治如果你要追究的是政治責任那麼機關"},{"start":4007.793,"end":4008.894,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":4042.008,"end":4050.376,"text":"好 謝謝我們第3位我們邀請台北大學公共行政暨政策學系教授陳志華陳教授"},{"start":4058.243,"end":4079.825,"text":"大會主席各位大院的委員各位學界先進各位女士各位先生今天很榮幸能夠來參加今天的公聽會那我想剛才聽到兩位先進的報告我都覺得非常的"},{"start":4083.064,"end":4107.095,"text":"首先我想今天的聚焦恐怕還是在公投綁大選這個題目當然兩年現在規定兩年定期舉辦我的意思是他首先會碰到一個問題可能一年內那一年8月舉辦公投那11月可能有選舉或者隔年的年初又有大選"},{"start":4107.975,"end":4124.57,"text":"那這樣子一年內可能有兩次選舉剛才王教授、程達提到心理上的負擔這種是不是會擾民會增加人民的負擔我覺得是很重要的必須考量"},{"start":4125.811,"end":4125.831,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4143.903,"end":4168.326,"text":"那這樣子可能一年內會有兩次的投票是不是和人民的習慣不是很相合當然美國在制憲的時候眾議員的任期應該一年兩年三年四年辯論了很久他們最後說兩年我覺得有它的一個道理那我今天首先要提出來我覺得公投綁大選是有它的道理"},{"start":4170.071,"end":4189.099,"text":"那上一場是蘇教授在座的東吳大學他提到60個國家先進國家當然這些先進國家多半是在歐洲我覺得很巧合的是這些歐盟國家大多都是內閣制國家"},{"start":4190.62,"end":4192.721,"text":"中間來一次公投,大家不覺得怎麼樣?而且很重視那個公投英國加入歐勢,拖歐"},{"start":4213.174,"end":4234.249,"text":"都是很慎重的一個經過長期醞釀大家討論才表決其實他們就是五年才選一次那法國總統七年的任期好像以前密特朗他當了兩任十四年的總統這中間哪一個公投他也不覺得會干擾到選舉那當然會重視那種公投"},{"start":4237.915,"end":4256.001,"text":"那我覺得這種政府體制很巧合的跟公投選舉有相當密切的關聯是值得各位參考那當然德國很少聽到因為他是內閣制議會內閣制另外"},{"start":4262.159,"end":4270.964,"text":"創製"},{"start":4272.177,"end":4293.704,"text":"創制復決的創制,某種意義來講,它具有選舉的意義我昨天看到這個資料,覺得很值得我們去思考它有這種 initiative election,創制性的選舉它意思就是說,有人說創制具有某種選舉的意義,它含有選舉的意涵"},{"start":4297.978,"end":4298.498,"text":"選舉公投和並舉行也沒有衝突"},{"start":4307.065,"end":4334.655,"text":"另外我想我們的主辦單位今天副主委我老朋友曹建雄他剛才也提到充分討論可以兩者脫鉤其實我很懷疑因為現在這種兩黨對峙緊張的氣氛之下會充分討論我都不相信各位看看我們上一次的公投2022年"},{"start":4337.056,"end":4361.305,"text":"秀憲公投電視上很多的轉播我都會看今天沒看到張其路來張其路還代表民眾黨的發言在電視上發表意見但是我想請問一下收視率如何再問一下有多少人看"},{"start":4362.611,"end":4388.147,"text":"我不相信那種什麼充分討論理性思辨我都不相信 我不太相信 不太相信那至於說為什麼會要轉變呢現在的法治既然脫鉤為什麼要再走原來的路線恢復舊制其實各位知道一個制度的恢復是經過深思熟慮的不是那麼隨隨便便"},{"start":4389.688,"end":4415.243,"text":"那我的意思比如說這種轉變的原因當然有立委說這個大法官判決不符民意這個有點扯得很遠但是我覺得有道理今天我們看大法官今天我看司法院提的意見跟法務部的意見都很一致我剛剛特別看"},{"start":4416.063,"end":4440.75,"text":"兩人提供的資料都幾乎是完全如出一冊我的意思是說他們都很open很尊重各方的意見我覺得令人敬佩今天內政部的次長董事長也發表高見他認為複決可能有兩種有一種可能跟國家主權領土"},{"start":4442.469,"end":4442.649,"text":"主席"},{"start":4460.282,"end":4473.848,"text":"那跟所謂的公投是很不一樣的應該有不同的對待那是不是應該分開處理我覺得是可以思考剛才聽到內政部的意見我非常非常的佩服"},{"start":4476.043,"end":4477.223,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會"},{"start":4494.918,"end":4495.098,"text":"民意會改變"},{"start":4514.085,"end":4543.285,"text":"那立法院說退休人員的薪水不應該繼續再減少我們主辦單位人事總處我們的考試員立刻回應我覺得這是民意很重要的在後面一個推動的力量這種民意的力量我覺得就是民主珍貴的地方雖然困境多數推翻多數其實也值得我們深思謝謝各位 謝謝"},{"start":4548.811,"end":4549.333,"text":"陳玉龍大律師"},{"start":4563.853,"end":4586.235,"text":"各位委員各位與會貴賓大家好我是陳玉榮律師那今天很榮幸來跟大家來討論一下有關於這個草案的這個部分的意見那這個部分我相信其實各位的重點還是在於關於這個公投綁大選的部分是不是應該要這個脫鉤或是一致舉行那其實從幾個下面幾個理由來看的話"},{"start":4586.835,"end":4605.698,"text":"其實我這邊的意見是認為說我們應該還是要做脫鉤的處理首先從外國立法例來看的話其實這一次草案的部分他把公投成案之後1到6個月之內就應該要來交付公投的部分其實從瑞士的立法例來看的話"},{"start":4606.759,"end":4630.175,"text":"從聯邦議會決議到公民投票其實大概要10到16個月那如果從連署到投票來說將近要42到54個月其實這個時間是相當長有相當長的時間才有辦法做這個公民充分的事變那甚至是跟我們國家這個德國跟我們這個公民投票法比較相近的德國的這個部分的話其實從德國這個漢堡幫的這個部分來看的話他雖然他的"},{"start":4635.378,"end":4662.327,"text":"這個成案之後到公民投票至少要4個月不過這個部分他們只不過是地方層級的公投而且看一下漢堡的人口也大概只有180萬如果說180萬的人口要去討論一個事情都還要至少有4個月的部分那麼一個2300萬的人口的一個國家為什麼在1到6個月之內就可以去把這個公投成案這個其實是有問題的是有問題的"},{"start":4664.208,"end":4684.099,"text":"另外在這個德國的公投的部分其實有一個非常有趣的規定我們在一般的人都會去顧慮到說如果說這個公投跟大選一起舉行的時候投票率好像會比較高但是這個部分其實我們在立法上面可以做一些差別的對待例如說"},{"start":4684.719,"end":4699.897,"text":"如果今天公投跟這個大選脫鉤的時候也許他的得票他的通過的比例就不用這麼高我們可以做一個細緻化的分析做這個細緻化的分別不一定都是採取一樣的比例來做這個通過的這個部分"},{"start":4700.498,"end":4717.426,"text":"那再來啊從這個我們一樣在這個東南亞的國家其實印尼我相信各位這個各會與會的貴賓一定都知道印尼啊曾經在2019年4月選舉的時候竟然有因為他們這個大選就是在同時舉行竟然有270個選務人員過勞死然後有1800個選務人員竟然生病就在大選舉行過後"},{"start":4724.109,"end":4752.224,"text":"再來2024年2月之後這次選舉有沒有比較好有比較好但還是有71個人選務人員過勞時有超過4000位選務人員有生病他們採取的方式其實跟台灣一樣都是用人工點票所以這個部分在印尼當地的輿論他們就覺得說其實不要把所有的選舉都綁在同一天不要把所有的選舉都綁在同一天這個東西對選務人員來說其實是有一些"},{"start":4753.224,"end":4782.273,"text":"幫助也會提高這個選舉的正當性的部分那其實從上一次這個一直被詬病的這個201這個上一次這個公投綁大選的這一次來看的話後來啊臺灣高人法院其實對這個部分所謂的邊投票邊開票的釋法性其實有表示說這個是合法不過他們在判決理由裡面也就是在108年度選上至第6號的判決裡面他們其實有提到"},{"start":4783.193,"end":4798.159,"text":"這個部分其實是因為中選會那個時候他沒有去做一些預先準備還有在台北市的選舉委員會也沒有按照工作協調會議去設置投票所導致怎麼樣有一些投票所超過1500個人甚至1800個選民但是啊"},{"start":4801.42,"end":4825.419,"text":"中選會對這件事情他其實也有話要說他說這個部分因為縮短一到六個月就要舉辦公投所以怎麼樣這個預算的撥款根本來不及簡單來說縱使今天上一次使用了這個行政院第二第二項的這個預備金第二預備金的部分但是這個部分也要等到公投案成立之後主計處才能撥款"},{"start":4825.959,"end":4840.656,"text":"所以他的作業時間其實相當的短這個部分其實會有礙這個公投這個程序的正當性的部分事實上因為我有許多朋友是在公務人員也有親友是公務人員他們現在對於這種公投綁大選那一天"},{"start":4841.036,"end":4868.12,"text":"是否要再去從事選務人員其實非常有顧慮那這個部分據我所知後來中選會這邊也是跟人事總書這邊一直去協調把這個補修、獎金都提得非常高才會慢慢有人去願意所以這個部分我們要去實行一個公投的這個好的正當的程序的目的的時候我們還是不得不去考量一些適當的行政手段的部分那再來的部分其實剛剛各位幾位前面的先進都有提到"},{"start":4869.4,"end":4884.626,"text":"媒體跟公民的這個程序都不足那我這邊其實只是想補充一點如果說今天公投綁大選的話在兩黨激烈的政黨政治的競爭裡面其實它會讓許多候選人"},{"start":4885.586,"end":4885.906,"text":"公投綁大選："},{"start":4904.235,"end":4904.675,"text":"〈公民投票法〉"},{"start":4926.283,"end":4926.543,"text":"責任政治責任政治"},{"start":4943.248,"end":4943.288,"text":"〔記者發言〕"},{"start":4966.328,"end":4974.02,"text":"這個其實在法律上會有問題而且可能會有違憲甚至是會破壞了獨立機關原本設置的目的這是非常不妥的"},{"start":4978.857,"end":5005.785,"text":"那最後還有像這個公投延長原本從2年拘束到4年的部分這部分剛剛其實林教授也有提過就是說這個部分除了會拘束各位委員的意見之外其實另外還會有一種矛盾的情形產生如果說今天有一個議題有一個政治人物他是反對某一個重大政策但是這個重大政策後來經過公投通過之後"},{"start":5006.645,"end":5028.853,"text":"過了不久這個政治人物選上了總統或是擔任什麼機關首長的時候他的政見其中之一就是我就是反對這個重大政策那麼請問一下四年的拘束時間到底是後面的民意林佳鑫的民意還是應該要尊重公投法的部分的意見這個部分其實也會產生許多法律上的不確定性所以坦白說"},{"start":5030.833,"end":5041.016,"text":"這幾個提案看起來其實不是那麼的妥適也不是那麼的適宜所以這部分是本人一些粗淺的意見那再請各位與會先進 敬請指教 謝謝謝謝陳大律師接下來我們請傅新儀大律師"},{"start":5059.172,"end":5060.713,"text":"主席委員還有各位與會的先進大家好然後因為今天時間有限呢請容許我就是讓我結合一下法律還有我個人喜愛的那個歷史說書故事來讓我來用這8分鐘來做一下我今天針對這個議題的一個簡短的一個報告好"},{"start":5088.517,"end":5113.064,"text":"我今天還是專注在提綱的這四個大主題上面所以這四個大主題的諸置我就不再逐一略述了然後在我的一開始的時候我想要先用一句美國第三任總統Thomas Jefferson的名言他曾經有講到一個政府最重要而且是它唯一的功能就是它必須要盡善地盡職在人民的福利以及幸福上面"},{"start":5115.285,"end":5124.849,"text":"人民的福利就是要彰顯人民的主權這個應該是所有的人民的期待也應該是政府以及我們議會裡面的一個最大的一個宗旨那接下來呢那就針對我的第一個主題然後我想要跟大家做一個簡單的報告因為我在日前搶不到周杰倫的票所以"},{"start":5136.765,"end":5141.79,"text":"民主制度 雅典的民主制度來跟大家來做一個簡單報告我回顧一下我們的人類歷史應該最早的民主制度是在雅典的索人時代"},{"start":5156.405,"end":5174.056,"text":"就是如果我從網路上的一些歷史資料查他從西元前不是西元後西元前的594年他就進行了重大的400人會議的改革然後這400人會議的改革我們就可以把它想成一個小的一個公民的意識的集結體這個在2500年前這是一個非常偉大的創舉那這個人是誰呢"},{"start":5180.72,"end":5180.82,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":5197.023,"end":5207.726,"text":"代表道德的最高的一個領袖第二個叫摩西宗教的就是帶領出埃及的這個宗教最高的先知第三個在最右邊那個就是我這一次要講的索倫這一位索倫呢他本身因為他帶領的希臘雅典城邦的執法改革所以這三位成為最高文明的代表所以我就把索倫的頭像來給大家再看清楚一下就是他"},{"start":5222.669,"end":5233.1,"text":"雖然說只是一個雕像而已但是我想他長得氣餘非凡果然就能夠帶領到我們這次的政策改革所以我也期許我們的議會以及我們的行政官員也能夠帶領我們台灣做一個最佳制度的一個選擇"},{"start":5236.451,"end":5260.761,"text":"那接下來呢我就要講一下這個為什麼我要從民主制度起源開始講起因為我覺得我們在看一件事情我們不能夠只是單純的講講法律講講這個法律的要件然後講講我們的亂象當然這很重要我不可置喙但是我覺得我們還是要去看它事物的本質我們要去看到底民主在我們的國家要怎麼樣的彰顯它從歷史的嚴格裡面對我們的人類的意義它有什麼樣的一個啟發所以呢為什麼索倫他要做"},{"start":5265.37,"end":5271.816,"text":"民主改革因為3000年前的雅典貧富不均我們像貴族借錢還不出錢來的話土地就要那個那個那個送給貴族他就變成了農奴欸其實好像跟我們現在一樣當你貸款還不出來你的房子就會被銀行抵押好像我們這個在人類的歷史3000年後也沒任何改變"},{"start":5283.246,"end":5303.45,"text":"後來底層反抗了然後雅典政府就覺得說不知道該怎麼辦好痛苦啊就沒有人可以解決這問題因為底層人民那麼多大家要反抗後來他們就舉出一個索人就說請你來解決它他就說好我就把所有的負債全部都delete掉我就把所有的負債取消當然太棒了今天如果各位身上所有的貸款都能夠一次當作父親你沒有負但是可以一次當父親這個人民當然很高興但是呢"},{"start":5309.195,"end":5309.335,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":5326.492,"end":5346.249,"text":"基本的民主制度基礎那為什麼我會說最基本的民主政治基礎呢原因是因為直接民主其實是在他的後期就是我們說在他的年代未盡之夜在他的下一代他就成就了所以有一個也很有名的叫克里斯提尼他開了500人會議欸多了100人好像多了一些民意進來好就是我們姑且不論400人跟500人之間的差異反正anyway"},{"start":5348.431,"end":5364.97,"text":"亞典式的直接民主已經成型了到達民主最高峰那這個直接民主呢很厲害的是在2500年前就已經有提案公投跟表決法律就是我們今天要討論的一個很重大的議題我很害怕我找的中文資料有點額悟所以我看了英文跟日文的文獻那因為在此並不是語言課程就請讓我就此略過"},{"start":5368.594,"end":5373.517,"text":"公民投票跟直接民主的關聯公民投票當然就是我剛剛跟各位報告的就是因為這個就是我們人民的事項所以人民的事項必須要有我們人民要有參與的權利就是要讓人民有決策權這個我想應該是大家都是可以承認的一個概念第二個就是我們要促進政策透明跟公正來強化政府責任"},{"start":5389.466,"end":5401.24,"text":"但是呢並不是所有的議題都可以進覆公投喔我在這邊其實我想要focus回來我們這次想要講的重點就是第一個今天如果是少數族群或是人權保障議題就是我們剛剛很多教授有講到的性平問題這個並不是來讓公投來做決定的一個好議題"},{"start":5406.789,"end":5411.433,"text":"因為這個是人權問題第二個高度專業跟技術性問題我再舉個例子就是我們剛有討論到像廢死議題死刑存廢是放在刑法裡面它本身就是有不同的道德取捨如果說我們把死刑的問題來附諸公投的話說實在話在我們台灣的現今社會只會加強我們的社會衝突跟紛爭"},{"start":5427.026,"end":5449.454,"text":"法律的問題、人權的問題只是本來就是應該要交由法律的判斷來做最後的定言所以我想尊重司法應該都是我們身為台灣公民一個應盡的義務然後第三個就是有關於國家法跟外交政策這個也不應該要近乎溝通因為這個是政府的責任政府自己要做好外交政策這本來就不是來讓人們做決定那當然最重要的就是憲法基本權保障"},{"start":5450.234,"end":5465.219,"text":"那接下來我們來看就是兩年一次的這樣的規定有沒有侵害到職捐民權我在這邊必須要跟大家報告因為我們是法律三位階的理論嘛這個大家都知道憲法法律命令法律不可以跟憲法相焊隔不可以向他不可以跟憲法抵觸"},{"start":5465.879,"end":5472.283,"text":"但是事實上憲法是國家的根本大法它是最重要的基本法它不可能具體名義我打個比方憲法第19要告訴我們說人民有納稅的權利但是你2個月是要繳營業稅每年5月要申報所得稅這個憲法沒有告訴我們為什麼因為太細了"},{"start":5482.128,"end":5499.862,"text":"所以細節性程序性的事項交付給法律行使其實這個其實是沒有問題的那稍後我也會跟大家報告一下就是有關於一些外國立法律的一些經驗就像剛剛很多先進有講到像瑞士他們也都是固定時間的來舉辦公投我想這個在法律制度上應該是沒有什麼很大的一個疑慮"},{"start":5500.562,"end":5522.776,"text":"那如何強化公民參與呢?最主要還是教育、資訊充分還有就是這個議題不可以造成對立那在這邊話雖然說我非常敬重我們的那個智華教授無愛無事無更愛真理但是事實上剛剛智華教授說對於人民理性思辨他是保持存疑但是我還是相信人性本善我相信我們台灣人民的智慧我們應該要給台灣人民更多的理性思辨的這樣的一個機會"},{"start":5523.516,"end":5523.996,"text":"最後的10秒時間請讓我來給大家最後一個我的簡單結論就是"},{"start":5546.749,"end":5548.95,"text":"請容許再給我20秒時間,我想要呼應一下剛剛的一個議題就是為什麼我要先講一下那個希臘雅典的這個故事的原因是因為其實希臘雅典這500人會議它有瑕疵嗎?絕對有"},{"start":5569.281,"end":5582.366,"text":"他的公民投票權只有在成年男性女性奴隸外國居住者就合法外國居住者是沒有投票權的甚至還有投票流放制度就是公民投票讓這個人來流放不可以在雅典境內生存這個在我們現在的民主來看完全的都是違反性別平等違反我們的人性尊嚴"},{"start":5589.748,"end":5589.788,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝"},{"start":5617.824,"end":5623.908,"text":"謝謝副大律師我們接下來請東吳大學政治系蘇子喬蘇教授主席在座各位與會的來賓還有機關代表各位長官大家好很榮幸有這個機會在這個場合跟各位"},{"start":5642.851,"end":5667.979,"text":"報告一下關於對公民投票法修法的一些看法我還是把焦點放在公投綁大選這個議題上我自己的一個思考是認為說公投是我要跟大選合併舉辦它跟公投的通過門檻這件事情是應該要進行配套思考的"},{"start":5669.419,"end":5695.748,"text":"那我們目前的公投法的這個門檻其實已經在過去修法這個降低的情況之下我會認為就是說公投跟大選是否合併舉辦我覺得是值得斟酌的因為我們目前的這個公民投票法的這個修法目前的門檻是同意票多於不同意票而且同意票要達到這個若以全國新公投來講的話是達到全國的選舉人總數的四分之一也就是25%這個是通過的門檻"},{"start":5699.91,"end":5727.306,"text":"我們可以這樣推論其實這是一個簡單的數學問題就是說在這樣的公投的門檻之下我們可以想像可以推論就是說在一個公投當中如果同意票多於不同意票然後在投票率超過50%的情況之下就代表說同意跟不同意票加起來是50%的投票率情況之下那同意票就必然一定會超過25%"},{"start":5729.583,"end":5753.845,"text":"那所以我們可以想像就是說意思就是說我們可以想像就是就是在公投跟大選合併舉辦的情況之下因為投票率基本上應該是會超過50%的因為我們過去歷年來的各種選舉的投票率除了是極少數的那種基層選舉的例外都應該有50%的投票率甚至會更高70%、60%、70%甚至在中央大選有80%以上的投票率那在這樣的情況之下"},{"start":5755.146,"end":5778.538,"text":"事實上這個決定公投是否能夠通過的關鍵那就會變成只是同意票跟不同意票的兩者多寡了那意思也就是說那個我們在當時公投法裡面設了25%的那個門檻的那個制度的用意其實就是被掏空了就形同劇文了我是做這樣一個推論就是說所以我覺得就是說剛剛談的這是第一個重點我要強調就是說"},{"start":5782.22,"end":5797.175,"text":"公投跟大選是不是要合併舉辦跟公投通過門檻這個是應該要做一個配套思考這是第一點第二點我要強調就是說公投的目的事實上應該是盡可能要精確的去反映人民的民眾的意志"},{"start":5801.539,"end":5815.355,"text":"那在這樣的公投目的之下那我覺得去思考就是說如果公投綁大選我想其實這個已經是老生常談了就是說在公投跟大選合併舉辦的情況之下其實我們確實會有一個疑慮就是說公投確實蠻有可能會變成是選舉過程當中政黨"},{"start":5818.539,"end":5845.54,"text":"或是政治人物動員選民的工具或是拉抬選情的一種工具公投的議題也因此會淹沒在選戰的煙消當中會模糊了公投議題的焦點我覺得這樣的一個現象其實跟我們強調公投的目的是要盡可能精確的反映人民的意志這樣的一個目的其實是有所衝突的這是我要提的第二個重點"},{"start":5847.949,"end":5869.088,"text":"第3個我提出一個資料我上次有提一個資料是關於全球性全世界公投的我上次有提一個全世界公投綁大選其實並不是一個全球主流的制度設計我這邊再提一個資料這個資料可能是比較微觀的一個資料其實前面的陳律師也有提到我還是可以呼應一下就是我跟"},{"start":5870.329,"end":5879.095,"text":"本校東吳大學學友方教授有做一個關於瑞士跟德國的但德國是地方公投幫了公投的一個研究那個"},{"start":5880.629,"end":5884.09,"text":"提在瑞士的公投案瑞士的全國性公投案我特別去觀察過去10年當中從開始連署發動到最後付出公投的時間"},{"start":5901.803,"end":5924.852,"text":"整體來講大概是50個月左右時間40幾個月到50個月時間基本上就是將近4年另外德國的那個幫的公投我這邊焦點放在漢堡幫的公投他的過去近年來他的一個公投從發動一開始成案發動到最後付諸公投時間大概是20個月到30個月時間也就是說基本上也是要兩年多左右時間"},{"start":5925.672,"end":5951.723,"text":"那我覺得這個歷史是要強調就是說我們在台灣目前的公投設計是每兩年定期舉辦公投大概是20個、24個月的時間其實跟剛剛講這兩個國家的歷史其實是蠻相應的啦那我這邊要提的就是說因為是跟德國會有這樣的設計其實它主要的一個用意是要促成這個時間會拉得比較長其實是想要促成公民能夠在過程當中進行比較有充分的時間去進行審議跟事變這裡當然我想一定會有一個疑慮就是說"},{"start":5956.465,"end":5979.666,"text":"我要呈一個疑慮就是公投的期程拉長並不一定能夠確保公民一定會審議事變可是公投的期程如果太短就必然不可能促成公民審議事變所以我覺得目前這樣的一個公投時間的兩年兩年作為一個公投日我覺得目前這個設計其實並不是一個違反國際主流國際潮流的一個設計"},{"start":5983.76,"end":5989.785,"text":"另外在提綱上有提到一點就是說要如何促進公投的參與度我覺得關鍵不是要讓公投跟大選合併舉辦而是一個我們過去也談了很長的一個制度就是"},{"start":5998.922,"end":6013.761,"text":"不再提投票趕快實施不再提投票實施之下公民參與的程度應該是可以進步提高的我覺得不再提投票的制度設計如果在國內有些疑慮的話事實上移轉投票的制度設計"},{"start":6014.682,"end":6029.622,"text":"或甚至就是說在不在意投票容許說民眾也可以在一定的範圍之下去進行提前投票我覺得投票的率也是因此才可以增加的我覺得關鍵不只是在於公投跟大選合併舉辦"},{"start":6031.856,"end":6049.123,"text":"這是第5點我提出一個最後的結論就是說提執政黨從2017年因為當時在立法院佔多數的情況之下他當時降低了公投門檻然後到2018年的公投跟地方的九合一選舉因為當時有10項公投案造成這個選舉的亂象"},{"start":6052.564,"end":6068.804,"text":"然後到2019年又修法把公投的跟選舉脫鉤這整個政治的歷程確實充滿了政治算計而且也確實有很多值得檢討跟非議的地方不過我覺得目前這個制度這樣子亂打"},{"start":6070.82,"end":6091.919,"text":"亂打亂撞下來這樣的一個公投目前形成的一個制度就當下制度來看如果我們不要去就是說一碼歸一碼啦就是說過去的這樣的現象其實是不好的我覺得很多政治算益在裡面可是就當下這個制度我覺得目前如果就公投跟大選分開舉行我覺得這個是有它的可行性還是有它的一個合一性啦"},{"start":6092.62,"end":6121.448,"text":"因為現在的做法基本上就是我們基本上就是每一年會有一次投票機會嘛舉例2024年選總統2025年會有八月可能會是如果有提案的話有一次公投那2026年會有地方的選舉那2028年那2027年會有一個地方又有一個公投那2028年又是總統選舉所以每四年會每一年都有一次投票機會所以我覺得目前這樣公投制度是可以那個可以還是可以一個在目前的制度是要是有它的合一性的好就交各位謝謝"},{"start":6125.611,"end":6145.661,"text":"好 謝謝蘇教授那我們接下來請台北海洋科大通識教育中心的助理教授吳瑟志吳教授我們在吳教授發言完之後我們休息5分鐘讓大家使用洗手間請吳教授好 謝謝主席好各位學者專家大家好我是吳瑟志"},{"start":6146.363,"end":6171.331,"text":"那很有榮幸來到這個地方來分享我的觀點雖然我不是這個公法類的專家那當然今天在前往到這個貴院的時候大院的時候其實我腦子裡都還在想著昨天我們十二強終於進入副賽要到東京了那我一直在想說修法的迫切性那如果今天公投的題目是說"},{"start":6172.191,"end":6172.211,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6189.666,"end":6215.22,"text":"對於這一次的公投的一個修訂案當然有三案我是逐一的來去檢視它的邏輯性就是說到底這樣的公投的修法的理由或者是它的一個這個修法的內容方向到底能不能說服我或者是能不能有這個修法的必要性例如說我們剛才其實很多的專家學者前輩們提到了這個綁大選的議題那到底"},{"start":6217.492,"end":6221.381,"text":"目前的固定投票跟綁大選哪一個最能解決選務的亂象?"},{"start":6223.201,"end":6248.739,"text":"再來是我們一直在提到要提高投票率提高公民投票的投票率那到底提高公民投票率剛才有學者提到公共議題的討論度到底哪一個才是我們在針對公民投票需要關注的重點再來是修法的迫切性到底現在我們進行這三案的修法有沒有它的迫切性以及說這個修法的民意基礎是什麼"},{"start":6249.539,"end":6275.343,"text":"其實我們從這個中選會的那個報告裡面回憶裡面也提到了這個我們在之前已經有一個公投決定了拍板決定了公投綁大選的這樣的一個民意的一個基礎再來是憲法覆決跟公投的條件意義當然是不同的我們在提這個說到這個問題當中有提到這個這個根本所謂的直接民權的關係完全是沒有任何的"},{"start":6275.763,"end":6277.624,"text":"每一案的邏輯性問題第一個"},{"start":6301.246,"end":6318.342,"text":"民眾黨所提出的這個多案一張的這樣的一個修法的一個內容就是多個公投案都在一張選票裡面呈現我覺得它會有兩個很大的問題必須解決在修法的一個理由裡面卻沒有告訴我們第一個選民投票行為的改變"},{"start":6319.892,"end":6343.045,"text":"當然我們很多的選民有所謂的在所謂的多人一張多人就是一張選票裡面很多人來進行選擇但是從來沒有過一張選票裡面進行多案的選擇那個選民的一個投票行為的改變這對於選民他自己表露他的所謂直接民權以及在於對於他在進行投票行為是不是會出現錯誤"},{"start":6344.502,"end":6353.571,"text":"我覺得這個我們在修法當中都沒有顧慮到雖然我們引用了國際的 修法裡有引用的國際上的案例再來選務工作"},{"start":6355.488,"end":6380.932,"text":"選務工作他在這個過程當中在針對一張選票中出現可能有所謂的贊成不贊成甚至所謂的沒有蓋章的這樣的一個公投案當然可以透過選務工作當中仔細的來進行相關的開票檢查但是問題在這裡喔如果假設出現錯誤或是出現任何的矛盾他所引起的社會的一個質疑"},{"start":6382.401,"end":6410.735,"text":"當然這個就會出現我的意思就是說如果在這樣的方式之下要加上我們也從這個相關的報告裡面提及到這個我們也沒有採取所謂的電子計票這樣的一個模式沒有這些相關配套之下在進行多案一選票的修法它第一個會增加選民在投票上的一個困難尤其我們看到從過去這四個案子當中呈現什麼其實我們在進行公投投票裡面當然很多選舉也是有類似這樣的傾向"},{"start":6412.52,"end":6438.701,"text":"高年齡的投票率其實是比較高的那它會造成你在選票當中行為的改變的困難或是閱讀選票的障礙那因此如果說多按並一票它的目的是要讓選務能夠順暢我必須說如果相較於現在一按一張票的一個方式它並沒有辦法去證明這樣的方式是可以讓解決選務的困擾或是它其實更造成更多選務的問題"},{"start":6440.282,"end":6455.118,"text":"那再來是第二案在針對所謂的權責機關執行期限的修法問題第一個我必須問三個月合理嗎如果三個月合理的話我覺得基本上我們就會看到的是什麼許多的相關部門他在"},{"start":6456.058,"end":6473.892,"text":"針對公投的結果在進行相關細則的訂定上可能會出現掛一漏萬羞羞補補的相關問題出來法律問題出來他可能會造成我們法體系的混亂再來是三個月必須要提出處理辦法否則必須要這個有這個所謂的"},{"start":6474.512,"end":6495.424,"text":"首長必須要支持下台我必須說用時間來規範並不等於責任政治的必然性再來是那如果假設行政機關他在公投投票為了要提出相關的一個細則出來他在公投投票前就預先的擬定處置方式我覺得這也跟民意政治上有所出入那我們可以從"},{"start":6497.032,"end":6507.769,"text":"過去當中比如說行政程序法第51條行政機關在反映相關期限內兩個月必須作出反映但是他可可以延長一次延長兩個月或是我們從訴願法第84條"},{"start":6510.529,"end":6535.567,"text":"在相關的回應當中期限是三個月但是你可以得延長一次也是兩個月我意思是說我們在這次修法當中並沒有這樣的配套措施那更何況公投跟行政處分的訴願決定的情形都不同他所涉及到相關需要進行的行政裁量或者是專業領域的意見公投案會更加複雜"},{"start":6536.588,"end":6565.293,"text":"所以如果只有3個月就要求行政所長必須要下台沒有完成必須辭職下台我覺得恐怕導致最後是公投案原本是對勢的討論最後混淆變成對人的爭議所以如果說這樣子的一個理由修法理由他再回到所謂的民意政治或是責任政治的角度來看的話我認為現在的所謂的固定投票的方式以及目前我們所執行的方式其實基本上已經可以"},{"start":6566.273,"end":6575.179,"text":"已經可以達到所謂的民意政治的基礎無需要再進行相關的支持下台規範第三個就是公投綁大選的問題公投綁大選在規範上"},{"start":6580.965,"end":6605.823,"text":"當然很多人都很清楚這是對勢公投是對勢大選是對人的選舉這兩者之間其實有一定程度的衝突跟矛盾其實那修法規定要必須要這次修法提案裡面規定提到1到6個月要進行投票這是不是符合這個部分是不是對於公投的意義來講我某個程度上認為他是有一定程度的矛盾我們說公投的目的是希望公民"},{"start":6606.363,"end":6622.508,"text":"在針對公共議題當中有充分的討論但是一到兩個月就必須去討論在哪裡再來是如果說今天公投保納選一旦成就之後我覺得基本上它對於提升投票率這件事情"},{"start":6622.888,"end":6640.005,"text":"他只是技巧性的來進行投票意願的提升並沒辦法有助於公民在意志上或直接民權上的實踐那最後我認為在相關法令的規範上如果沒有充足的理由相關的提出來我覺得應該要更多的研究跟調查"},{"start":6640.626,"end":6661.114,"text":"包括這個公投跟大選之間的關係以不同案之間的相互影響這些分析都必須要出來再進行所謂的修法理由的補充否則目前我認為在相關的這三案的修法當中我認為都是還不適宜而且沒有它的妥協性以上是我的報告 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝吳教授那我們現在休息五分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":7042.867,"end":7054.171,"text":"那我們現在繼續開會那接下來是請開南大學法律系兼任副教授蔣貴美蔣副教授好那個主席在場各位先進這個大家好我想時間有限我們就很快的切入主題"},{"start":7072.278,"end":7073.62,"text":"第一場我大概也全程看過"},{"start":7087.575,"end":7087.695,"text":"〔主席〕"},{"start":7109.019,"end":7132.66,"text":"主權在民這是發展了幾百年形成的一個代議制度所以不管怎麼樣我們還是要回到代議制度的本質實際上洛克的觀點我想我們在座都非常清楚他甚至有這個Revolution 革命說等等也就是說這個權利當你不可控的時候你本來就是可以收回來的"},{"start":7133.58,"end":7149.405,"text":"所以我想這是一個第一個非常清楚的定位那第二個問題我覺得呢民意本身它是有幾個特色民意的potention它是有前隱性的我們過去在這個國民黨長期執政的時候我們的在那個民國勘亂時期如果你去做民調你根本看不到台獨的聲音比例非常非常低"},{"start":7159.088,"end":7159.228,"text":"民意的潛影性"},{"start":7174.967,"end":7189.938,"text":"所以我們把公投過度減花我是覺得沒有必要也違反了我們的原理原則所以我們在第一個議題裡面當然要非常清楚的去考慮到我們為什麼要去限縮它的時間它已經不容易表現了結果你還要在特定時間、特定時段兩年一次還要在固定的哪個月"},{"start":7202.328,"end":7224.634,"text":"這個有必要嗎所以這個違反了我們基本的一個原理上尊重民意主權在民的一個原理原則那當然我們也必須了解剛才在前面很多先進提到所謂的這個好像是林佳和教授他有提到這個公投是yes no 我不認為"},{"start":7226.007,"end":7232.111,"text":"你看我們的條文我們的公投法裡面有法案的創覆還有重大政策重大政策不是每個國家做法都一樣我們過去15項公投當時會搞得這麼紛亂大部分都是重大政策"},{"start":7244.471,"end":7270.001,"text":"所以當它通過了七成以上都通過可是你沒有辦法執行什麼東西因為它具體性不夠那所以很多國家在重大政策它是有規定它的技術上的運作跟它的可行性我們沒有所以我們一直把它怪在這個邊投邊開等等等技術的問題所以我們一定要限縮我覺得這叫本末倒置忽略了我們大腦的聰明性這樣是不對的"},{"start":7273.602,"end":7273.842,"text":"憲法復決權18歲公民權"},{"start":7296.491,"end":7308.264,"text":"憲法我覺得門檻非常高它甚至會超過我們過去所有總統的最高當選票數它很難那憲法本來就很難那所以呢我們當然要去思考一個問題"},{"start":7309.932,"end":7336.812,"text":"假設它不是憲法,它是法律那法律能夠違背憲法嗎?我們憲法裡面有哪一條告訴你說你可以自意限縮也許我用自意這個名詞是不大禮貌但是當我們要限縮的時候我們一定要師出有名一定要有具體的理由而且要符合明確化的原則否則不能隨意限縮"},{"start":7337.853,"end":7337.873,"text":"為了⋯"},{"start":7363.368,"end":7363.388,"text":"第3個問題"},{"start":7390.134,"end":7395.859,"text":"我們提到第三個問題說我們到底有哪些管道 三管道太多了當我們認識基本權的重要性的時候"},{"start":7409.012,"end":7421.125,"text":"人民主權是奮鬥了幾百年過來的它是非常可貴的但一陣子它只是一個運作模式我們為了模式而消除勢力去刻意的限縮基本權"},{"start":7422.489,"end":7444.1,"text":"事實上你技術上有很多地方可以改善我們在過去長長的一個官方的公報我憑安心說在我家桌上放了好久沒有人會看了因為太長了官方寫的東西一大堆你與其逼其公於一役只有那一天公報上投票前看一看那你平常為什麼不可以做一些雙向溝通的所謂的電子平台"},{"start":7447.842,"end":7448.022,"text":"主席"},{"start":7466.809,"end":7467.049,"text":"民意有潛意識"},{"start":7483.44,"end":7509.75,"text":"事實上民意不只有前隱性它還有強弱度事實上民意的強弱度我們在過去的公投裡面看得出來我們有最早的所謂的跟美國的軍購案然後後來的一大堆什麼入聯反聯在中央幾乎都是意識形態為主的一些重大案當然我們後來也出現了藻礁等等這些非常重要的案所以你就知道我們的人民是熱情的他們很想參與我們要盡量給他們空間"},{"start":7512.651,"end":7538.454,"text":"最後一個問題這個因為我看剩29秒那所以呢請大家參閱當時我在監察院108內政字0041號的調查報告那是針對邊開邊投的調查報告李立寫了非常非常多的缺失那這些缺失呢我非常遺憾後來隔年"},{"start":7539.415,"end":7540.476,"text":"吳威智教授"},{"start":7567.751,"end":7583.71,"text":"主席在場的徐宇貞 立委以及各位先進大家好我是雲林科技大學的教授吳維智我針對提案一的部分也就是說公民投票限制兩年當中在特定時間辦理是不是有違背直接主決"},{"start":7584.571,"end":7584.771,"text":"主席"},{"start":7607.568,"end":7634.743,"text":"公投法的第1條裡面規定依據憲法主權佔領的原則主權佔領就民主其實就是主權佔領主權佔領在世界各國裡面只有兩個主要的學說一個就是國民主權說一個就是國會主權說可是現在我們的國家哪個時候變成了司法主權說了變成了行政主權說了好像司法跟行政都變成了在它的上面這是不對的"},{"start":7635.623,"end":7658.473,"text":"所以基本上我也非常的認同在大法官342號的解釋裡面認為既議事之律者立法院其實是有權決定這些技術性的立法問題我個人認為公投法的很多都是技術性的立法問題所以因此無論在台灣各地市的公投有沒有的投票"},{"start":7659.153,"end":7685.278,"text":"包含了公投有沒有合併或者要分開其實每一個時代有每一個時代的需要這個時代的需要就是針對國會因為它的一個需要而來做改變那基於對公投案是對市有政策的參考價值其實它等同是民意調查這個民意調查技術上可以採很多的技術包含了電子投票那這等一下我再做報告"},{"start":7686.158,"end":7713.324,"text":"另外公投其實要不要這個兩年這個部分實在是太久了為什麼因為公投的規定裡面各位看從發起連署審查公告往往都要6個月以上時間其實已經是夠久了那夠久了之後你再把時間再拖久了事實上無法來反映當時候重大的政策它如果有急迫性的也沒有辦法來反映民意"},{"start":7714.304,"end":7729.222,"text":"因此這個部分我認為是必須要改變的在提綱第2的部分也仍然是在說明說兩年辦理一次會不會再跟大選當中的一個結合各位我們看到了"},{"start":7731.063,"end":7754.358,"text":"憲法徵修條文第1條提出的憲法修憲案裡面而且它只有說公告半年然後經過3個月的投票覆決事實上它只有公告的時間沒有限制任何提出的一個時間那當然對人選舉因為他有任期所以他可以有這樣的一個限制可是對事呢"},{"start":7754.918,"end":7756.56,"text":"第3個部分有沒有具體可行的方式來處理我們看到了"},{"start":7772.496,"end":7797.648,"text":"剛才所說的諮詢性公投就像民意的調查一樣它可以做電子投票世界上已經有超過30個國家實施了其中有一種我覺得是非常好的一種就是目前的直接記錄電子投票機DRE的一個技術這個技術可以在投票機上投票而且記錄在機器上的記憶體裡面除了這個之外"},{"start":7798.568,"end":7814.176,"text":"選民可以有列印出來像金融交易記錄的一個收據這個部分除了各自的記錄演示以外其他在時間跟統計裡面都可以看得到比如說它可以避免很多作弊的機會"},{"start":7815.376,"end":7844.326,"text":"那麼接下來第4個提案裡面我們說要合併大選可不可以我必須說當時候2018年一案一章造成了大排長龍邊開票邊投票這個部分實際上是選務工作並沒有掌握流程事前也沒有演練的足夠而且開票的票櫃也幾乎同一個場所所以剛才有一位大律師說不要把選票綁在同一天"},{"start":7845.246,"end":7865.946,"text":"實際上我們是不是應該考慮不要把開票擋在同一天呢因為很多技術性的問題是可以來解決的公投的開票其實沒有人的一個擊破那這個部分可以再多一天 多兩天 多三天這個公投的正確性才是最重要的"},{"start":7866.827,"end":7873.932,"text":"那麼我們現今我們看到新國會智庫公佈的民調有66%是支持公投綁大選的反對才一半而已所以中選會也提出會不會綁大選會不會當議題私交這個部分其實我認為基本上不會模糊公投的焦點都已經討論半年以上了還模糊焦點你是讓我們選民當傻子"},{"start":7891.886,"end":7893.388,"text":"所以我認為反而是把公投有機會綁大選的話讓候選人有機會把事情講清楚你的立場到底是什麼選民更能夠選出更對的人來反映當時候的一個民意"},{"start":7909.085,"end":7909.125,"text":"主席"},{"start":7927.429,"end":7927.629,"text":"投票行為改變"},{"start":7957.489,"end":7961.45,"text":"這個是依照我們過去選舉之來的一個選舉的習慣我認為這樣的一個選舉習慣是可以加以來尊重的所以這個部分我們應該要仔細來考量當然在過去怎麼樣去做技術上的問題也剛才有學者專家到了我們在籍投票的方式已經入法了可是這個入法到現在各位"},{"start":7985.078,"end":7988.299,"text":"我記得當時候中選會李主委講過他當時候6年前說兩年要來訂立這個法到現在6年了還沒有來改變還沒有來訂立所以不再擠投票其實也是一個技術上能夠改變這個合併大選的一個做法我認為中選會難道只會傳統的一張選票的選舉方式嗎"},{"start":8009.925,"end":8033.452,"text":"現在行政院已經有了科技部已經有了數位部難道連一個電子投票或者通訊投票都做不出來嗎所以如果再做不出來乾脆中選會移給立法院好了立法院我看現在的表現都非常棒所以讓立法院來擔任中選會的管理院體的機構好了所以這也就是說我們必須要考量"},{"start":8033.752,"end":8035.533,"text":"謝謝吳教授接下來我們請立法委員徐益臻委員"},{"start":8066.436,"end":8095.343,"text":"謝謝主席還有在場的各位學者、專家、各位官員以及我們立法院的同事大家早我想剛剛韋智教授他講得非常的好因為其實以現在的公投法的部分歷經了多次的修訂從可以公投綁大選到公投不能綁大選其實我們就可以看得出來等一下會提出一些數據來跟大家做分享為什麼我們主張要公投綁大選那其實我們可以看到"},{"start":8095.703,"end":8095.723,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8114.653,"end":8142.873,"text":"所以大家很樂意能夠出來投票因此成案也非常多有10個案子那這10個案子之中因爲民進黨的主張沒有一個通過所以民進黨被民意狠狠的打臉之後在2019年就提案修法要將公投與大選分開執行而且公投只能兩年一次還要選在暑假的期間舉行所以這樣的做法"},{"start":8143.393,"end":8164.912,"text":"明顯的就是要降低公民投票發起的意願還有公民返鄉投票的意願進而造成投票率降低跟代表性不足的問題那我們可以看到2018年的公投跟2021年公投單獨舉行的這個跟分開舉行的狀況2018年全國的公投投票率是55.8%"},{"start":8166.693,"end":8168.314,"text":"公投與大選分開嚴重影響其投票意願"},{"start":8193.604,"end":8193.744,"text":"主席"},{"start":8217.694,"end":8236.535,"text":"其實世界各地都有公投綁大選進行的國家也有公投跟大選分開的那當時造成的這個選舉亂象監察院跟行政院都認為是州選會安排不周所致並不是合併選舉而造成的所以在2018年11月29號"},{"start":8238.597,"end":8250.603,"text":"當時的行政院長賴清德在行政院會聽取中選會的報告的時候呢他有表示未來選舉合併公投舉辦是將成為常態請中選會重新檢討整體選務的作業包括對於公投案的查驗聯署社會各項建言以及把兩種投票程序同步進行的有效分流的方式一個月內提出改進的方案所以當時中選會"},{"start":8268.232,"end":8268.792,"text":"投票率是民主制度正當性的一個基石"},{"start":8288.977,"end":8289.137,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8308.857,"end":8331.43,"text":"民主社會最重要的是保障全民參與決策的一個機會那長期來看呢如果公投跟選舉分開的話會造成這個成案發起的這個連署的意願所以長期來看也會影響選民對民主制度的一個信心所以曾經有一個研究顯示平凡的選舉會導致選民出現選舉疲勞進而降低人民參與的熱情跟動力"},{"start":8336.914,"end":8337.214,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":8351.578,"end":8351.618,"text":"以上,謝謝"},{"start":8383.746,"end":8388.015,"text":"謝謝徐益臻委員接下來請政大法律系陳柏良教授"},{"start":8407.424,"end":8429.563,"text":"主席與會的各個機關首長和今天在場參與的各位先進大家好我是陳柏良今天很榮幸受邀在貴院能夠就公民投票的部分發表一些我對於這個制度的一些想法第一個是先針對公民投票一直大家強調的是要實現直接民權的部分跟主權在民的原則"},{"start":8430.163,"end":8452.646,"text":"那這個地方我是完全贊成那只是我們在思考什麼是國民主權原則的時候必須思考一件事我們現在關鍵是自由民主憲政秩序自由民主憲政秩序就是必須要平衡國民主權跟少數群體的權利中間怎麼達到平衡那所以接下來說我們的討論就會變成說我們民主制度裡面到底是蕾家式的民主還是審議式的民主"},{"start":8453.146,"end":8481.374,"text":"那如果我們在這個前提下開始討論的時候其實公民投票它算是一個立法政策形成的空間有非常寬廣的空間但是我們要去具體去思考說什麼是一個比較好的審議式民主的空間還有審議期間應該怎麼樣的怎麼樣的設計還有審議的過程應該怎麼樣的設計那今天如果算是就提剛的討論來說的話第一個是在討論說是不是應該要一案一張還是多案一張的部分那我先以我個人經驗來因為我父親是很早就有青光眼跟老花眼"},{"start":8481.914,"end":8503.305,"text":"那也就是變成說在台灣高齡化的社會之下我還記得2018年他選票看非常久啊看非常久就是縱使是多案多章他一張一張在閱讀的時候所以我的建議是這樣是說如果我們未來縱使要採一案一張的話第一個字體一定要放大那還有就是這個投開票所必須放那個老花眼鏡包括像我也有點粗老"},{"start":8504.145,"end":8527.02,"text":"所以我連看字的時候也是要稍微 也是常常要調整一下距離所以其實我是在思考這件事如果今天是在公民識別或是公民識讀這邊的話我們如果要進行多案一張 多案一張的話那就是第一個問題就是說我們怎麼樣確保我們即將要走入高齡化社會我想在座大家也很多自己的父母或祖父母在投票的時候都會碰到這個困擾"},{"start":8527.981,"end":8548.531,"text":"所以就變是當然我認為多案一張或一案一張這可以用那個施行細則的部分來處理但是我是建議是說就在事辦之前我們可能要先進行實證就是要多大的字體才可以造成說第一個才不會造成選務的困擾還有整個投票流動性還有就是老人在閱讀的時候能夠順利這是第一個部分"},{"start":8549.071,"end":8549.372,"text":"公投綁大選議題"},{"start":8566.834,"end":8567.234,"text":"實空背景改變以後"},{"start":8596.994,"end":8619.029,"text":"我們在整個公投綁大選這個的必要性上面其實就不是關鍵已經不是必要性了而是在公投綁而是在於是說我們怎麼樣第一個提升投票率第二個是怎麼樣有能夠造成有一個有意義的審議的期間那審議期間其實我會認為分兩個部分當然提高投票率部分剛剛包括蘇教授吳老師什麼也都討論到很多包括那個其他的一些配套措施"},{"start":8619.409,"end":8644.042,"text":"怎麼提高投票率但是如果是真的在討論審議期間的時候其實就有分成兩個部分第一個是在於是說在公投 這中選會的公投審議期間的時候那個委員會包括審查委員的那個代表性跟多元性有沒有兼顧也就是我個人參與過去的經驗的時候也常常會出現到是說那個審查委員會裡面就是公投審議委員會或中選會在邀請專家學者的時候裡面多元性不管是性別多元 族群多元"},{"start":8644.842,"end":8649.185,"text":"民主自由憲政秩序或自由民主憲政秩序下所謂少數權力的那個部分那這個問題會有兩種可能性第一個就是在於是說我們是要導入事前的核心性審查"},{"start":8671.761,"end":8693.263,"text":"在公告之前,我們是不是要有一個異議期間,也就是說對於潛在可能受侵害的少數群體他有沒有可能,第一個包括提出異議,提出反對性的公投或是第三個甚至是去提出憲法訴訟或是定暫時狀態假處分也就是我們是不是在審議期間結束之後是不是有一個公告異議的期間,那這是第二個部分"},{"start":8693.643,"end":8694.885,"text":"公共政策的形成公共政策的創置"},{"start":8710.804,"end":8730.499,"text":"這個部分的話其實會有一個蠻複雜的就是我們在整個三個類型當中所設計的那個不管是後面的救濟程序或是後面的那個實踐過程有不一樣的設計那其實我覺得比較值得討論是立法原則的創制和重大公共政策的形成跟創制的部分我會覺得在這邊其實我們會有應該有不同的思考"},{"start":8730.919,"end":8752.592,"text":"那因為我剛剛看到提案裡面會出現一個狀況是說如果出現重大公共政策的那個創制部分如果是行政機關行政怠惰不作為的時候那應該怎麼處理那其實在實務問題上永遠會出現一個狀況是行政機關可能會先提出一個看似言之成理的草案但事實上其實跟公投意旨是不符合的"},{"start":8753.152,"end":8779.058,"text":"所以就是這個法條本身在操作可能性上會變至愛難行所以其實我的建議會是這樣是說如果我們今天在立法原則創製上已經有導入那個憲法法庭的那個審查機制的話那接下來是我們在立法原則所謂立法原則在重大公共政策的創製上面其實也可以在因為一定會出現行政跟立法兩方或行政方跟公投提案人出現是否有具體回應這件事情上"},{"start":8780.038,"end":8806.733,"text":"會出現不一致那這個時候其實我認為關鍵其實是在於是說有沒有一個中間的仲裁機制或是中間的機關能夠第三方能夠來裁決說這個到底有沒有有沒有造成有沒有具體回應或是對所以這個是在那個立法原則跟重大公共政策形成的部分的那個一個建議那其實接下來是有一個裡面有一個比較分支的討論是在於是說我們公民投票之後到底拘束的期間是兩年還是四年"},{"start":8807.293,"end":8824.888,"text":"那當然我今天看到草案當中是希望從2年改為4年但是我會有一個建議是這樣就是如果以目前台灣全球的科技的發展的速度不管是AI或核能技術那核能技術的進步包括安全性的那個技術進步也是非常快的那我以這個例子為例就是說以核能電廠這個為例"},{"start":8826.129,"end":8848.104,"text":"也就是說我們在未來一到兩年內會不會科技有爆炸性的發展我們並不清楚所以就是如果一旦是定時四年的話也就是變成是說我們如果一旦有科技的快速進展的時候我們會無法跟上時代那不管是科技的兩岸關係或是國際局勢或者是所以在這邊如果既然是第一個是與時俱進的原則下我的建議是還是維持兩年"},{"start":8848.504,"end":8863.478,"text":"如果4年的話就會造成是不只是直接民權的問題是直接民權怎麼樣能夠具體的展現就是變成拉長式就變成連就新民意不能推翻舊民意新公投不能推翻舊公投所以我的建議是4年這個部分我的建議是還是維持兩年比較恰當"},{"start":8864.119,"end":8893.459,"text":"那至於剛剛在花了蠻多時間是怎麼樣造成有效的審議跟怎麼樣有效提高公民投票的那個投票率的部分其實我會認為是說審議跟公民投票率這兩個部分我們過去常常是分開來思考甚至我們是用政治動員的角度來想但其實在整個審議的過程中我覺得關鍵不是拉長而是在於是怎麼樣讓行政、立法、司法三方都能夠有機會能夠在這個地方能夠參與才能真正落實自由民主憲政秩序好 那非常謝謝各位委員 謝謝"},{"start":8896.503,"end":8896.824,"text":"李筍成 講師"},{"start":8913.138,"end":8931.615,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位老師、各位先進大家好很榮幸有這個機會跟大家報告自己簡短的意見因為時間非常有限我們直接進入主題我直接就先講結論比較快因為在法國我們說如果說公投跟大選切開的話法國就是最明顯的例子他有非常明顯的立法力"},{"start":8932.837,"end":8936.5,"text":"但是也就是因為這樣而且他的表決有效逼雙門檻參與率必須要50%投票也必須要占到50%這才可以如果沒有到達這個門檻的話通通都是只有諮詢性質"},{"start":8948.23,"end":8969.717,"text":"結果法國2030修憲之後才有地方公投地方公投是嚴格跟這切開的當然理由也是說不要跟這種混在一起實際上不可能不可能比如說法國全國公投也是人跟也是公投跟選舉切開問題是說1960年的戴高樂提出選舉就是總統有一名選舉"},{"start":8970.937,"end":8971.377,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":8990.825,"end":8991.446,"text":"公投選舉批評舉行以及勞費"},{"start":9009.722,"end":9032.14,"text":"投票率超過50%以上只有21次也就是說其他高達40幾次根本就無效根本因為成本與範圍太低了投票率超過40%只有66次總共就是只有高達32次投票率根本低於40%就是法國切開的關係就是因為這麼低那麼投票率最高的97%為什麼"},{"start":9035.223,"end":9044.272,"text":"百分之九一計投票率為什麽?因爲它非常瑣碎是否贊成設立4G基地台那除掉最低的百分之三"},{"start":9046.783,"end":9070.984,"text":"我們說公投綁大選 我會說公投跟選舉切開 那麼我們要考慮一個非常切身的問題 錢哪裡來那法國今年6月9號解散國會 總共花了2800萬歐元 高達9億新台幣那9億新台幣其實很便宜啦 為什麼 因為他們很多的開票志工是免費的 就是一般公民去擔任的 不是讓我們所有的選舉人員通常都要付錢的"},{"start":9071.704,"end":9095.952,"text":"我就去看過我在旁邊看他們沒有去算因為我不是法國人要不然他們就是十幾桌像這樣桌一樣每一桌四個人開通通都是公民之公通通不用付錢所以他這樣就變得很便宜問題是說你光這樣子法國國債也非常高他已經是超過歐盟的上限而且超過非常非常多因此總理說要提出要削減600億歐元預算所以知書必講"},{"start":9096.852,"end":9112.762,"text":"那我們就結論說美國、瑞士都證實公民投票是可以跟選舉一起進行的而且事實上就要投票投票率魁北克地區也是一樣我們法律上也找不到公投跟大選要切開的這種規定他們都是在禮拜天舉行"},{"start":9113.662,"end":9116.825,"text":"巴黎、里昂、馬賽三大都市投票時間延長到晚上8點鐘其他的小鄉鎮只有到晚上4、6點鐘就結束了因為就用這樣子來確保"},{"start":9137.145,"end":9137.965,"text":"總共有146項公民投票一起舉行"},{"start":9162.037,"end":9183.891,"text":"在美國這一次11月5號跟總統、州長、眾院院參議員的選舉統統綁在一起因為他不這樣的話根本沒有人來美國這麼大根本沒有人來其實不管地方大小你選舉一起舉行人一定會比較多這是其實根本不用太多討論這是常識而且他們如果說基本人權可不可以共同當然可以 為什麼"},{"start":9184.568,"end":9209.731,"text":"多胎選要不要寫入州縣呢?要啊!很多寫進去了或者禁止多胎選入州縣都有這兩種都有都寫進去了瑞士網上很多奇怪的講法不要說奇怪因為大家可能看到資料不同就說瑞士有人說公投跟選舉是切開的我去查一下未必是如此起碼說地方跟中央的聯邦公投是會盡量同天舉行我特別用把它找出英文的頁面出來"},{"start":9214.515,"end":9228.667,"text":"公投中央地方一起進行這是法文版他甚至已經把未來20年的公投跟選舉一起通訂出來了可是他有一個很重要條文是在這個紅色點"},{"start":9234.325,"end":9253.334,"text":"總之聯邦總理的秘書處可以把這些事情從調整如果有重要理由的話可以合併舉辦他有這個非常重要的條文我把它通通就是這個條文在政治權利斥令跟聯邦政治權利法相關條文我都把它找出來這是可以調整的為了逼 那麼"},{"start":9254.761,"end":9283.303,"text":"這是瑞士的情況魁北克的情況也是一樣魁北克也是市政選舉跟公投都是在禮拜天舉行那麼我就詳細查過他並沒有並沒有互相排去排斥切開的規定所以我們如果比較一下法國立法例法國是明白切開的就是公投跟選舉絕對不可以同一天我講的是地方因為全國公投法國沒有明文規定地方居方公投跟選舉是明文規定切開的但是在我們比較魁北克的法語區魁北克"},{"start":9284.424,"end":9286.187,"text":"法國地方公投是很早在使用的"},{"start":9300.827,"end":9317.098,"text":"我們可以看這是一個表格以事項來區分基礎建設 基礎重劃投票率是最高但實際上我們剛剛已經看到了投票率超過50%的只有21次因為他們一定規定投票率超過50%才有效所以變成說超過50%的只有21次不到1%的公投是有效的"},{"start":9327.085,"end":9329.766,"text":"主席 在座的委員還有各位學者先進大家好"},{"start":9356.483,"end":9375.391,"text":"回顧我國公投法的修法、立法以及實踐的歷程我們2003年公投法公布實行當時是採用的就是雙二一的門檻設計即便是在全國性的公投當中投票率過半而且有效過半的同意才算是通過在當初認為這是個高門檻那被績效為這是個民主的鳥籠公投"},{"start":9380.413,"end":9381.295,"text":"在2017七年的時候當時立法院又修改公投法大幅降低公投提案及通過的門檻"},{"start":9391.82,"end":9396.463,"text":"那麼2018年因為有十個公投案合併九合一的選舉那麼造成就是當時在投票過程當中的混亂那麼以至於就是民進黨在2019年的時候呢夾著立法院的席次優勢又再次修正公投法那麼規定公投日是兩年才可以實行一次而且呢也就是要錯開選舉年"},{"start":9419.48,"end":9425.603,"text":"民進黨當時這樣的一個修法其實是大幅限制人民的創制複決權在我們憲法民文規定要保障人民的創制複決權而公民投票法本來就是在落實國民主權原則可是沒有想到民進黨這樣子的一個修改是大幅限制人民的創制複決權從本來是"},{"start":9444.392,"end":9444.932,"text":"本席認為公投本來就是應該是要"},{"start":9471.38,"end":9493.845,"text":"反映人民對於公共政策議題的看法那麼國家就應該要在民意的基礎上去施政民意的代表性越充足越好而且越及時越好那麼公投脫鉤大選的確是會造成投票率的降低而兩年半一次的確是沒有辦法及時的去反映民意那麼所以呢如果說今天我們的"},{"start":9494.985,"end":9521.717,"text":"公投從提案、連署、成案到投票都已經經過相當的嚴謹的程序以及時程這時候還是可以回復到過去的公投綁大選甚至廢除兩年一次的行使公投如此才可以提高民眾的關注度還有與政府對話的機會每一次的公投都是人民自由意志的展現是直接民權的落實"},{"start":9523.698,"end":9527.68,"text":"我們知道其實20162016年當時時任文化部的部長鄭麗君曾經有提出過公投生活化的這樣的一個目標可是大家想想看我們今天公投有生活化嗎我們公投現在被綁得死死的每兩年才能夠行使一次所以在這樣的一個情況之下其實我們認為應該要"},{"start":9547.79,"end":9549.711,"text":"民進黨總是在說時代變遷時空環境的不同但是公投已是如此那國會改革也是如此所以呢這些都是執政者的思維不希望監督的力量變大那麼如果政府做得好那何須又怕人民公投呢"},{"start":9575.389,"end":9596.278,"text":"2018o18年當時的選務工作混亂的結果其實應該要從選務上面去進行改革包括解決不實虛假的連署同時要落實不在即投票利用科技來解決問題而不是在人民的權利上面加上層層的限制禁錮人民的權利"},{"start":9597.478,"end":9609.305,"text":"本席主張公投應該回復綁大選的制度而且廢除兩年一次才能實施公投讓更多的民眾可以參與並且可以降低成本和人力物力以上謝謝好 謝謝翁曉琳委員我們接下來請我們的前立委也是中山大學的張其路教授"},{"start":9626.262,"end":9646.918,"text":"謝謝徐召偉當然這次這個議題真的非常的重要其實這個公投綁大選其實我也跟當然在與會的各位來報告一下其實早在上一屆國會的時候其實這就是議題了事實上我們也知道在2021年的時候事實上我們有四項的公投案"},{"start":9647.919,"end":9657.889,"text":"其實那個時候的民眾黨我也說一下其實在這個課題上是比較一開始他是反對但是後來是以開放的態度因為事實上這真的是一個比較複雜的課題我們必須直說"},{"start":9661.552,"end":9678.202,"text":"市長我個人也在內政委員會有一會期過也必須很坦白說當然現在看起來有很多的理由正反方都有比如說可能比較反對的主要就是以我們現在政府部門那比較在談的就是說"},{"start":9679.082,"end":9694.894,"text":"好像這件事呢讓選務會非常的複雜好像到時候選舉的時候過程邊投票邊開票造成這個選務的不公那另外的話也有一個比較就是可能就是中選會這邊的概念或者內政部在講的就是說認為比較讓民眾沒有這個審慎思辨的這個時間等等這些大概就是這一類的理由"},{"start":9704.572,"end":9731.904,"text":"當然我比較現在支持這個案希望說公投跟大選能綁在一起比較是我們在野黨這個部分那比較大概談就是說當然成本的節省還有讓這個整體這個事情比較投票率可以比較衝高其實說實話各都有他的道理這個我必須承認但是我必須這樣講我自己在擔任立委的時候我也必須講一件事這我可能比較想要談的是一個技術面的問題"},{"start":9733.356,"end":9754.751,"text":"大家有沒有仔細去想過選務困難這件事是一個非常棒的理由嗎其實我不覺得是個好理由從我自己當立委的時候因為為什麼我必須先報告一件事我剛才還查了一下我過去的臉書談到一件事我說連愛沙尼亞的那個不在籍投票的那些機器或者他們等等"},{"start":9756.474,"end":9757.275,"text":"選務工作到底是不是能辦好?"},{"start":9781.232,"end":9800.103,"text":"坦白說啦 這個綁這件事是不是真的是這麼危險我還是必須直說其實我們很多的綁啊你九合一大選不是綁在一起嗎大家全部都綁在一起啊那人跟市的選舉不能綁這個也不盡然說得過去人跟市"},{"start":9801.86,"end":9819.223,"text":"其實都是民權的展現嘛而且如果說大家搭配一起討論也不是不行我必須說實話這次民眾黨他是有提他這次的修法版本他比較著重在就是我講的這個技術面的版本上就是說他說如果是今天要綁在一起"},{"start":9820.472,"end":9833.78,"text":"公投案很多是還是這樣的一人一張嗎那當時一人一張確實是沒錯搞混的搞亂了大家也不知道說這個要怎麼投然後投的亂七八糟那既然有了那個經驗而且又從2018已經"},{"start":9836.101,"end":9860.24,"text":"就有那個亂象了走到今天我們真的就問嘛公投法自己也說啊不在即是OK的可是我們在第10屆國會那時候就在講就在追追中選會就希望說能夠把這件事情要落實甚至我講更遠一點的包括EID如果這些東西能夠上位甚至我們在過去第10屆國會的時候甚至都還成立了事務發佈"},{"start":9862.034,"end":9882.014,"text":"有這麼多單位都要搞定這些事的結果很抱歉還到我們第11屆了由我們召委還繼續在開始還要公聽會還要再談這些事情我直說啦如果技術面比較能解決說實話啦沒有什麼理由去阻擋這個直接民權我還是必須直說"},{"start":9883.075,"end":9902.515,"text":"那至於說是不是這樣子跟公投就是說跟大選綁在一起當然如果說能夠節省而且在這個過程中坦白說技術又能夠克服其實也沒什麼不行啦而且甚至坦白說啦你如果我也看了一下上一次公聽會的很多專家意見"},{"start":9903.968,"end":9904.528,"text":"民眾黨請我來我是覺得OK 因為我還想要談就是說"},{"start":9929.545,"end":9957.307,"text":"因為當時未盡之功這麼多一直期待中選會把不在籍投票把這個選務精進這件事已經談了N年了那怎麼好像我都在想尤其像我們坦白說我們蓋章這件事大家會不會覺得說這是很好玩的一件事我們到這個21世紀在那裡蓋章在那這樣子驗這真的是蠻好笑的我很必須直說"},{"start":9959.718,"end":9962.435,"text":"國外其實那個時候投票那個案子也很多的"},{"start":9963.735,"end":9967.238,"text":"全球最厲害的IC大國我們是不是也可以自己用我們的ICT我們的設備來更新這些事情甚至講白了會真的要那麼亂嗎會亂到這個"},{"start":9990.117,"end":9990.699,"text":"臺灣也不是真的很大啦必須直說好了"},{"start":9998.871,"end":10000.032,"text":"人民是不是就是用審議民主的觀念來想的話其實齁"},{"start":10021.235,"end":10032.695,"text":"當然人民自己也有他自己的責任我必須直說就是人民自己在怎麼看待這些案子他是只聽政黨搖旗吶喊的還是怎麼樣其實也不見得"},{"start":10033.996,"end":10051.758,"text":"反而是那個資訊要充分反而是在那個過程中那既然我們當時就是一直說從鳥籠公投一直希望他不要是鳥籠公投希望他能夠讓直接民意能夠更彰顯那所以這些事情我是覺得說我們其實是"},{"start":10053.231,"end":10076.161,"text":"前提就是技術面如果好好地把它先改進本來就該做其實是我們行政的怠惰比如說公投法裡面就是說不再急著要搞定的這些如果通通都能夠上位的話反而今天的議題是好解的而不是說在這些好像我可以必須告訴你所有事情都會說技術很困難"},{"start":10078.097,"end":10078.217,"text":"陳克勤議員"},{"start":10098.726,"end":10101.888,"text":"接下來我們要請列席的與會機關代表來回應說明首先我們就請中選會陳副主委"},{"start":10133.601,"end":10151.72,"text":"召集委員在座各位委員各位專家學者各位機關代表各位女士先生中選會這邊做幾點回應第一點回應是理性的思辯才是公民投票實施的基礎在選務機關的立場上"},{"start":10156.311,"end":10183.829,"text":"我們支持現行公投與大選脫鉤辦理的這個規定主要的一個原因並不是只是給選務機關合理的選務籌備期間而是公投與大選分開來辦理將人跟事來進行脫鉤可以有助於這個政黨政治的一個運作"},{"start":10185.103,"end":10206.35,"text":"在過程中避免藉由夾帶來影響政局最後也經由選民跟投票權人的理性思辨我們可以邁向下一階段更為理性、更為穩定、更為民主鞏固的國家政治"},{"start":10207.402,"end":10228.26,"text":"第二是有關剛剛各界所提的若干技術性的一個規定技術是歸技術但要考慮到幾個層面的問題第一個層面是法律的規定第二個層面是社會的信任第三個是相關的一個客觀這個局勢"},{"start":10230.658,"end":10252.311,"text":"舉例來說,很多先進提到可以實施電子投票或網路投票等更先進的投票技術但是我們要就法律的規定,我們要就社會的信任跟客觀的情勢來進行考量如同在上週公聽會的一個回應裡頭"},{"start":10253.371,"end":10281.278,"text":"我們也可以清楚的了解到全球最希望台灣實施先進電子投票或網路投票的國家應該會是境外敵對這個勢力所以我們要反過來這個想想看我們要如何確保台灣的一個民主的鞏固那第三呢聆聽各界的一個聲音仍然是有必要的那有關各界所提出來的多案一票的一個"},{"start":10282.345,"end":10300.479,"text":"這一個公民投票的一個選票設計在法律上跟實務上都是屬於不可行的那為什麼不可行因為如果是多按一票的話它是會導致選民沒有辦法履行他投票或"},{"start":10301.079,"end":10318.352,"text":"不投票的一個權利這涉及到了法律以及憲法所規定的人民權利的一個問題那第二個是在實務上有關有效票或無效票的一個認定有他認定的一個方式如果多按一票"},{"start":10319.592,"end":10345.721,"text":"會導致這個選票的一個認定要認定為有效票或無效票相當的一個困難更重要的是多按一票會導致開票的一個時間反而會更長理由是因為在多按一票的這個情況之下反而更難讓公眾來進行有效的一個監督也更難讓在場的一個監察人員"},{"start":10347.12,"end":10347.56,"text":"內政部董事長"},{"start":10375.3,"end":10395.802,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進各位學界的代表專家非常感謝今天內政委員會針對公民投票法提出相關的公聽會也聆聽了許多專家學者以及委員的高見我想對於公民投票我們非常清楚公民投票的重點"},{"start":10402.068,"end":10410.236,"text":"民主主權的實踐以及民意的表達在民主社會裡面本來就有多元的管道與方式"},{"start":10411.897,"end":10411.937,"text":"主席"},{"start":10433.078,"end":10459.947,"text":"所以公民投票法事實上也歷經了完整的修正那在整個修正的過程裡面我們降低了許多的門檻提案的門檻聯署的門檻以及通過的門檻這些門檻的修正其實都大幅的增加了公民的參加的意願以及投票的可能性甚至讓許多的議題都得以有機會表達我想公民投票的關鍵包括這些提案的過程其實都是一個公民社會討論的過程不論成難與否"},{"start":10462.968,"end":10488.799,"text":"實際上他都引發了這個社會對於許多重要議題的討論而這是一個民主社會公民社會最專見的一件事情所以我們還是願意聆聽更多人的意見那我們也尊重中選會對於選舉制度的相關的規範那內政部作為執行選舉的單位我們會依據法令的規範我們來強加執行再一次重申公民投票是一個"},{"start":10490.379,"end":10493.46,"text":"謝謝董事長本席請問司法院及法務部的出席代表有沒有要回應的"},{"start":10516.817,"end":10518.538,"text":"傅希怡大律師"},{"start":10536.718,"end":10541.202,"text":"中午的時間然後請讓我在間約一點時間然後再做一下那個那個簡單的一個發言內容就非常感謝就是主席還有就方才也有就是幾位委員他們也特別白忙前來來給我們一些一些一些"},{"start":10553.012,"end":10579.991,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":10580.632,"end":10601.969,"text":"我一直非常關心的一點就是我們一直在講共同綁大選共同綁大選但是我看到的法案我們要綁的是選舉怎麼好像大家的目的好像有點太特定了一點而且如果從共同綁大選來講的話大選是四年才一次也如果我們要能夠彰顯人民的人民主權的話四年一次比現在的兩年一次還更少"},{"start":10603.61,"end":10604.21,"text":"選舉合併公投選舉我們的選舉又不是走大選而已不是嗎"},{"start":10623.218,"end":10647.943,"text":"所以其實選舉和並公投這個本身這個議題確實是可以拿來討論的這個我覺得著無用意因為畢竟就是為了要節省錢嘛因為畢竟財政是我們的國家那個國家最重要的基礎啊因為這個財政都是我們納稅人的民脂民膏來的所以其實節省錢這件事情我本身我也覺得非常重要但是我也必須要說節約能源節省錢"},{"start":10650.163,"end":10667.774,"text":"解省資源很重要但是我們不能因噎廢食我們不能夠怕噎到我們就不敢吃飯不是嗎所以我們不能夠怕說只是因為怕花錢然後我們就不讓人民能夠行使公投的權利所以我剛剛其實為此我都覺得很考慮一點就是說大家的概念是不是有點邏輯矛盾了"},{"start":10669.355,"end":10691.411,"text":"就是方才徐宇貞委員有講到說平凡選舉會浪費錢所以我們不能夠平凡選舉所以我們要把公投綁在選舉裡可是問題是平凡選舉跟平凡公投這個目的其實是不同的但也非常感謝讓我有第二次發言的機會我剛剛跳過去的powerpoint就是大家的紙本的第9頁"},{"start":10693.43,"end":10708.329,"text":"其實我在資本的第9頁下方欸如果說POPPING也能夠快速的顯現一下就是我有一頁就是公投VS選舉我有整理一下就是我們公民投票跟選舉的概念差在哪裡說真的是幾乎totally different"},{"start":10709.403,"end":10730.773,"text":"放在一起就真的只是為了省錢那當然省錢是很好這點我承認只是說就是省錢跟公投放大選公投放大選的話是很省錢沒錯啦因為只剩下4年一次嘛對不對如果我們講的公投綁大選大選就剩4年一次喔大選並不是只有選舉喔那這樣超省錢的可是這樣的話那也是違背了方才翁小林委員講的阿"},{"start":10732.353,"end":10753.183,"text":"歐小林委員講得非常好,這一點我完全承認我們公投是要展現我們人民意識,弱勢之間民主其實我在拋破你的我從第一頁到最後一頁我講的也是這一句方才我也浪費大家那麼多時間聽我在講雅典的故事其實我講的也跟歐委員講的幾乎就是一模一樣的概念嘛對不對所以就是我非常的榮幸就是能夠跟歐小林委員"},{"start":10757.085,"end":10775.581,"text":"英雄所見一同這個當然是我的榮幸但是如果說我們今天只是為了不要能夠平凡的浪費錢然後就讓我們不要的平凡的公投然後就說要把公投拔大學我剛剛聽到兩位委員講的都是公投拔大學就是為了要省錢我倒覺得這個好像是跟看到的我們的在野黨的提案好像有點剛好矛盾"},{"start":10781.186,"end":10781.906,"text":"公投不是只有選舉體而已耶"},{"start":10802.791,"end":10818.84,"text":"大家都知道我們的環保現在很重要現在有ESG SDGs高齡問題居住政策我們的福利政策這個有沒有落實 沒有所以其實我非常的期待如同我一開始援引的Thomas Jefferson美國第三任總統講的人民的生存跟幸福是政府唯一而且是良善的職責與依歸我覺得所有的人民所有的期待都在我們的政府跟我們的國會上面那因為方才我非常感謝主席給我20秒"},{"start":10830.526,"end":10856.631,"text":"我現在也把20秒還給主席向主席致敬謝謝好 謝謝謝謝副大律師本席在這邊說明一下我們這邊說的公投榜大選它是包含地方選舉跟全國性選舉所以是兩年一次對對對好還有沒有要第二輪投票的在座的對第二輪對不起對對對還有沒有要第二輪發言的在座的專家學者"},{"start":10858.288,"end":10860.169,"text":"中文字幕由 Amara.org 社群組成"},{"start":10888.268,"end":10888.37,"text":"立法院第2會議"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}