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記得市長你都講到說可能用一些工協會由他來扮演的適度的運輸的角色市長你要工協會扮演對不對但是你很多配套還是要先給他第一個就是說"},{"start":351.066,"end":371.145,"text":"這個你叫協會去當駕駛他們的車他還是要符合規格但是我跟你說他們很多是會害怕的我之前有遇過一些類似消防的就是要帶老人去長照中間一小段對不對你知道"},{"start":372.315,"end":390.141,"text":"他們駕駛是不敢把老人從車上把他扶到車下他會怕他會怕什麼他怕後續的一些責任問題他沒有受過正當的教育課是啊是啊他就會有這些責任問題所以所以我要說很多時候你們好"},{"start":391.161,"end":416.553,"text":"大方法抓出來那剩下一些配套一些要解套然後一些讓這些駕駛人他們適度的一些責任應該要讓他們有豁免的機會不然他要塞車然後要救整車的老人他也是怕的應該是兩個方面一個就是提升他的職能讓他認識了解他要做的工作那第二個豁免的部分可能要思考怎麼來補強他"},{"start":419.375,"end":441.003,"text":"這部分我想可以再想辦法啦偏鄉地方對於公共運輸的需求我覺得這個交通部你們在思考台灣的發展交通的時候一定要注意到城鄉的差距因為偏鄉的地方看是政府部門應該要顧好好不好謝謝委員好來市長請回那我是不是再請經濟部郭部長郭部長"},{"start":449.827,"end":454.109,"text":"我們來討論一個時事的現在以伊戰爭看起來伊朗國會已經批准要封鎖赫默茲海峽"},{"start":463.362,"end":480.783,"text":"那封鎖了赫默茲海峽大概整個石油從中東的石油大概會斷裂那如果以台灣對台灣的影響來說台灣有超過六成的石油或者也還有兩成以上的天然氣是來自包括沙烏地阿拉伯啦包括科威特包括"},{"start":481.543,"end":505.863,"text":"卡達啦 這樣的一些中東國家所以會產生這樣石油供應的斷鏈跟天然氣那未來勢必可以想像 可能油價會上漲那油價會上漲這件事情兩個直接衝擊 中油跟台塑那部長 我們未來對中油我們因應油價上漲 我們要怎樣的對策嗎"},{"start":507.925,"end":532.243,"text":"報告委員我想油價的部分因為我們還有一個亞林最低價這樣一個部分存在所以我想這個行政院他應該會去考量這部分不是經濟部的業務啦我們是盡量配合這個行政院的這個指示來因應但是我們有做了一些推估大概會漲多少做了一些推估不過經濟部現在關切的是這個20%的油到25%的氣"},{"start":536.887,"end":537.369,"text":"其實那幫人"},{"start":539.666,"end":566.273,"text":"這個供給上面不順利的時候我要怎麼來彌補這個市場的這個需求啦所以我們經濟部現在大部分都在著力於對量的穩定量的穩定啦介紹的部分因為我們有供應量的穩定很重要就是要有一些替代的一些能源的一些來源啦但是部長我現在我想要問這一題我比較想要呼籲的就是說"},{"start":567.293,"end":576.485,"text":"我們中油 畢竟中油是國營事業啦那如果亞林最低價那當然中油就要去吸收要去吸收這一些油價的"},{"start":577.708,"end":598.128,"text":"但是另外一間台塑,台塑面對整個中國的石化業產能過剩所以台塑已經面對很大的衝擊這次的油價如果上漲,對台塑是可以說雪上加霜,更嚴重"},{"start":599.529,"end":613.459,"text":"台塑這間公司這樣經營下去壓力這麼大,勢必會面對台灣很多的就業市場,不然我想你一定知道,很多台灣的員工在台塑上班,你看賣料那裡,現在賣料那裡已經變成一個很大的鄉鎮,你看我們跟台北比較辛苦,"},{"start":620.484,"end":639.847,"text":"那也幾乎都是在台塑或是台塑的關係企業那如果未來台塑跟中油一樣面對油價上漲然後有面對這個油價要吸收成本的這樣的危機的時候雖然它是一些私人企業但是它已經大到我們政府應該要去關心它保證這塊是不是你可以"},{"start":641.468,"end":662.993,"text":"思考一下報告委員我們現在大概就是對油價的目前大概在75塊到85塊這個地方我們還在評估那當然更高的時候我想我們會從這個影響CPI這個物價指數上面來看那根據我們的模型來推論如果油價上漲10%影響CPI大概只有0.3%"},{"start":666.654,"end":684.12,"text":"對於這私人企業因為他大到影響我們會來跟他接觸來尋求跟他做充分的溝通看需要怎樣來倒三缸我的意思是這樣我覺得跟台秀應該對話台秀這間企業已經這麼大這麼多員工在那裡上班所以我們也不想看到台秀有裁員的狀況一個裁員就是很多家庭他少了這樣的一個依靠"},{"start":695.583,"end":714.016,"text":"所以台塑要怎麼讓它可以至少要撐過你說中國的產能過剩再加上這一次以異戰爭可能會面對的一個能源危機這個部分中有需要台塑這也是可能我們國家的台東應該也是要來關心當然我們就是現在台塑是大企業"},{"start":715.177,"end":741.73,"text":"那大企業有大企業的運作模式現在我們經濟部主要還是對中小微企業我們著力比較深啦當然委員現在關注到這個命題我們會回去以後馬上召集我們部裡面的這些同仁來詳細跟這個你們應該思考一下啦所以我也沒辦法有大案啦因為畢竟還是智能企業我可以想像因為在我的選區我好多人都都是台所上班他們都會歡樂"},{"start":744.252,"end":764.506,"text":"這員工在替老闆在擔心啦是是是 這個部分台塑應該是我們會去考量啦就是說基本上還是要反映成本啦我們還是盡量讓他反映成本這個部分我想我們會跟台塑然後我們整體所有的相關的同仁我們會來努力好 謝謝部長好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":855,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時38分）謝謝主席，我們是不是先請交通部林次長和公路局副局長？"],["主席：林次長、副局長。"],["林次長國顯：蔡委員早。"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，因為今天我們召委在關心關於老齡化使用客運的問題，事實上我們也知道像是很多偏鄉，也不用說到完全偏鄉，像現在我們嘉義縣大概晚上之後幾乎就沒有客運了，過去的客運功能完全已經沒了，不管是到臺北、高雄，大家都覺得投報率越來越低，可能乘載的人數也少，就變成沒有這樣的客運服務了。我想請教次長，因為這種有點是因為市場導向而造成了客運的中止，這樣的情況，站在交通部的立場，你們是樂見嗎？還是你們覺得就讓它依市場機制下去？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，當然不樂見，我們不樂見公共運輸退場得這麼快，但是現在的狀況是，可能委員也知道，在疫情期間有很多私人運具是有註冊或購買，有一部分的使用者在那段時間轉到私人運具去；第二個是我們也曾經注意到客運車的駕駛相對壓力比較大，因為他會面臨乘客的抱怨，或是路線比較長、疲勞駕駛的問題，甚至剛剛也有委員提到，他可能會有用餐、上廁所的一些壓力，所以這些課題如果不能夠逐步來處理，大概公路駕駛會不太容易找得到，這是目前的狀態。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，你剛剛講到有所謂私人的運具，但是畢竟不是很大的客群，是懂得去使用私人運具的人才有辦法，尤其是這種跑長程的，比方如果從嘉義要到臺北，我晚上趕不上最後一班10點半的高鐵，我趕不上了，那我有其他選擇嗎？好像沒有耶！"],["林次長國顯：是，除了自用車以外，就是叫車了，公路客運大概晚上……"],["蔡委員易餘：對啊，但是客運這一塊就沒了嘛！所以次長，你說不樂見嘛！交通部要提出怎樣的替代方式去延長這些客運壽命也好，還是讓他們能夠繼續提供服務。"],["林次長國顯：跟委員報告，全世界可能都面臨一樣的問題：第一個缺工；第二個是駕駛人超過65歲以上的時候，其實有些駕駛還有一定的能力，像計程車的部分我們就放得比較寬。所以有關是否把駕駛年齡延長？第二個，是否能找到更多的駕駛來源？包含我們前一陣子討論的外籍駕駛，通通是我們努力的方向，不過目前並沒有很好的一個結果啦！所以基本上我們是要處理這個議題。"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，事實上這也是很多矛盾，你說要把駕駛年齡延長，不過你現在延長，我們也沒辦法預見駕駛年齡延長後面這一端到底要延長多久，延長到66歲？67歲？"],["林次長國顯：延長的部分還需要精細的討論，畢竟不是直接依照供需來處理，有些還是要看年齡的部分。第二個是駕駛人的部分，我們今天的主題就是智慧運輸跟自動駕駛能否幫助駕駛降低他的壓力以及行車安全，所以我們也希望透過智慧運輸、智慧公車的提供，讓駕駛的壓力降低以後能夠用這個方式來吸引新的駕駛人員進來。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然，我們期待有未來可以有無人載具、智慧運輸來取代客運的服務，但是我覺得次長還是要去關注到在偏鄉本身公共運輸的能量就很不足，又因為偏鄉，然後又有駕駛人人數的限制的話，這個在偏鄉更嚴重，所以我們交通部還是要去顧及到很多不同的城鄉落差。"],["林次長國顯：理解。"],["蔡委員易餘：鄉下地方，我要找個公共運輸，就沒有辦法，找不到，而且本身地方的年輕人也不足，他要叫家裡的人載他，也沒有年輕人，年輕人都到外地去了。"],["林次長國顯：所以我們為什麼會開始把幸福巴士導入幸福小黃的作用大概是這個，就是用計程車來協助非特定路線的公共運輸。第二個，我們同仁也在研議，有些地方如果連幸福小黃都沒有，更偏遠的郊區或是山區可不可以開放社會型的服務？譬如說團體、協會來參與我們的公共運輸服務，這個在別的地區是有，目前是還沒有正規化來導入。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，既然有方法，我覺得就要去嘗試看看。"],["林次長國顯：對，這個大概就是逐步來推。"],["蔡委員易餘：既然次長都講到可能有一些公協會，由它適度來扮演運輸的角色，事實上，你要公協會扮演，但是你很多配套還是要先給它。第一個，你叫協會去當駕駛，他們會怕耶！"],["林次長國顯：他還是要符合規格，符合駕駛的……"],["蔡委員易餘：要符合規格，但是我跟你說，他們很多是會害怕的，我之前有遇過一些類似……就是要帶老人去長照，中間有一小段，對不對？你知道他們駕駛是不敢把老人從車上扶到車下的，他會怕耶！"],["林次長國顯：確實。"],["蔡委員易餘：為什麼會怕？他怕後續的一些責任問題。"],["林次長國顯：他沒有受過正規的教育課程，可能會危害到……"],["蔡委員易餘：是啊，他就會有這些責任問題。所以我說很多時候你們大方法抓出來，剩下一些配套、一些要解套，然後應該讓這些駕駛人他們有適度豁免一些責任的機會，不然他今天要開車，然後要顧整車的老人，他也是會怕耶！"],["林次長國顯：應該是兩個方面，一個就是提升他的職能，讓他認識、了解他要做的工作。第二個，豁免的部分可能要思考怎麼來補強，這個我們再來處理。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我想這個部分可以再想辦法，關於偏鄉地方對於公共運輸的需求。"],["林次長國顯：所以現在的邏輯……"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得交通部在思考臺灣發展交通的時候，一定要注意到城鄉的差距……"],["林次長國顯：了解。"],["蔡委員易餘：越偏鄉的地方，確實是政府部門應該要顧好的，好不好？"],["林次長國顯：是，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，次長先回，我再請經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我們來討論一下時事，現在以伊戰爭，看起來伊朗國會已經批准要封鎖荷姆茲海峽，如果封鎖了荷姆茲海峽，大概從中東輸出的石油會斷鏈。如果以對臺灣的影響來說，臺灣有超過六成的石油或者也還有兩成以上的天然氣是來自包括沙烏地阿拉伯、包括科威特、包括卡達一些中東國家，所以會產生石油供應及天然氣的斷鏈，未來勢必可以想像可能油價會上漲，而油價上漲這件事情會直接衝擊中油跟台塑。部長，未來對中油，我們因應油價上漲有怎樣的對策？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想油價的部分，因為我們還有一個「亞鄰最低價」政策的存在，所以我想行政院應該會去考量，這部分不是經濟部的業務啦，我們是儘量配合行政院的指示來因應。但是我們針對大概會漲多少，有做了一些推估，不過，經濟部現在關切的是20%的油跟25%的天然氣，萬一供給上面不順利的時候，我要怎樣來彌補市場的需求。所以經濟部現在大部分都著力於對量的穩定，至於價錢的部分，因為我們有……"],["蔡委員易餘：供應量的穩定很重要……"],["郭部長智輝：對，供應量的穩定……"],["蔡委員易餘：就是要有一些替代能源的來源啦！"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們現在是跟……"],["蔡委員易餘：但是部長我現在想要問這一題，我比較想要呼籲的是畢竟中油是國營事業，如果亞鄰最低價，當然中油就要去吸收這一些油價的。不過，還有另外一間台塑，老實說台塑面對了整個中國的石化業產能過剩，已經面對很大的衝擊，這次油價如果上漲，對台塑可以說是雪上加霜更嚴重。台塑這間公司這樣經營下去壓力這麼大，勢必會衝擊臺灣很多的就業市場。部長，我相信你一定知道，很多臺灣的員工在台塑上班。你看麥寮那裡，現在的麥寮已經變成雲林一個很大的鄉鎮了，你看我們嘉義的太保跟新港，那裡也幾乎都是在台塑或是台塑的關係企業上班。如果未來台塑跟中油一樣面對油價上漲，然後面對油價要吸收成本這樣的危機的時候，雖然它是一間私人企業，但是它已經大到我們政府應該要關心它。部長，這部分你是不是可以思考一下？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，油價目前大概在75塊到85塊這個地方我們還在評估，當然更高的時候，我想我們會從影響CPI物價指數上面來看，根據我們的模型來推論，如果油價上漲10%，影響CPI大概只有0.3%。對於私人企業因為它大到影響會很大，我們會來跟它接觸，來尋求跟它做充分的溝通，看需要怎麼樣來幫忙。"],["蔡委員易餘：是啦，部長，我的意思是這樣，我覺得應該和台塑對話，因為台塑這間企業已經這麼大，這麼多員工在那裡上班，所以我們也不想看到台塑有裁員的狀況，一裁員就會讓很多家庭少了依靠。所以要怎麼讓台塑至少可以撐過中國的產能過剩，再加上這一次以伊戰爭可能會面臨的能源危機，這個部分中油需要，台塑也可能需要，我們國家的態度應該也是要來關心一下。"],["郭部長智輝：是，當然現在台塑是大企業，大企業有大企業的運作模式，現在我們經濟部主要還是對中小微企業的著力比較深，當然委員現在關注到這個命題，我們回去以後會馬上召集我們部裡面的同仁來想一下，怎麼跟台塑對接……"],["蔡委員易餘：你們應該思考一下，這我也沒辦法有答案，因為畢竟它是私人企業，但是我可以想像，因為在我的選區裡有好多人都是在台塑上班，他們都在煩惱，員工都在替老闆擔心。"],["郭部長智輝：是，關於這個部分，台塑應該是我們會去考量的，基本上還是要反映成本……"],["蔡委員易餘：當然。"],["郭部長智輝：還是儘量讓它反映成本，我想我們會跟台塑討論，然後我們所有的相關同仁會來努力。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝部長。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請翁曉玲委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-17","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","邱志偉","陳超明","賴瑞隆","李坤城","蔡易餘","翁曉玲","葉元之","謝龍介","邱鎮軍","張嘉郡","徐欣瑩","邱議瑩","翁曉玲"],"page_start":337,"meetingDate":["2025-06-23"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員、交通部首長及國家科學及技術委員會首長就「因應\n高齡化社會，我國智慧公共運具發展及目標」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146401_00007"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}