{"error":false,"id":["16279"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":16279,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16279","日期":"2024-11-18","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"黨團協商-2024111539","會議代碼:str":"立法院朝野黨團協商","屆":11,"會期":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"黨團協商","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"立法院朝野黨團協商"},"影片種類":"Full","開始時間":"2024-11-18T12:30:13+08:00","結束時間":"2024-11-18T13:34:00+08:00","影片長度":"01:03:47","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528ef0f9f44450827e57506acfff3766fc82edb79b8bfb08e799389798301918c8925ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-18T13:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：一、行政院函請審議、委員賴士葆等25人、委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等19人、委員賴惠員等37人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「證券交易稅條例部分條文修正草案」、委員羅明才等20人、委員林楚茵等19人、委員李坤城等22人分別擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」及委員邱志偉等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」案。二、本院委員郭國文等17人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」，請審議案。（逕付二讀））","委員名稱":"完整會議","委員發言時間":"12:30:13 - 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謝謝 不好意思我們現在開始進入協商的主題《證券交易稅條例修正草案》除了委員會審查的10個版本以外上有本院郭公文委員等17人擬具《證券交易稅條例第二條之二修正草案》請審議案 經負二讀首先我先介紹我們在場的委員羅明才委員"},{"start":2457.319,"end":2468.744,"text":"黃珊珊委員、郭國文委員財政部莊部長、收入署宋署長、經管會陳彥良副主委、政區局黃滬局長、法務部林參事"},{"start":2488.12,"end":2493.042,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2504.755,"end":2525.028,"text":"好 那接下來我們請各提案委員、黨團代表、政府官員、財政部、莊部長分別就本次協商的主題《證券交易稅法條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案》等案審查會保留第二條之二及第十六條條文表達意見"},{"start":2530.419,"end":2552.772,"text":"請羅明才委員謝謝召委我想當沖降稅從過去開始時到現在待會請部長回答一下就是當沖降稅對稅收來講我們的稅收是增加還是減少增加的部分大概增加多少"},{"start":2553.692,"end":2573.18,"text":"那本席所提的案是配合金管會的彭主委整個發展亞洲的資產管理中心所以本席有提案是當中降稅延長五年所以本席的這個理念上是給予支持"},{"start":2573.86,"end":2601.762,"text":"因為現在動盪不安川普又當選我們希望說更穩定的稅制以免造成市場的衝擊那另外一個就是我在這裡要說明如果說五年大家願意支持那就五年通過如果五年不支持退而求其次說必須一定要三年那我也表示支持所以我可以先行告退了"},{"start":2607.639,"end":2609.891,"text":"謝謝明才,那接著請黃珊珊委員"},{"start":2611.254,"end":2630.951,"text":"好謝謝召委我想那個台灣民眾黨在我們提案的時候也是一樣就是說到底當沖降稅是不是常態化還是希望政府部門是很明確的態度第二個如果真的要延的話因為已經延過兩次那接下去要繼續延我們也希望它是一個遞減的狀態那但是我也知道說因為現在國際經濟狀況不明確當然對於台灣來說這個的確是讓我們雖然"},{"start":2637.616,"end":2664.451,"text":"當沖降稅的稅少了但是也因為交易量增加了那當然也有很多的稅收那重點是我還是剛剛有跟主委這邊副主委這邊說我們希望將來的檢討三年後如果你真的要三年你還是要有個檢討那這個檢討的指標是什麼每一次碰到當沖降稅的它的原因、理由還有為什麼要當沖降稅的這些指標現在可能就把它定清楚"},{"start":2665.111,"end":2687.331,"text":"那我們希望這樣會將來以後不會變成又是又有兩派的意見然後互相的拉扯我覺得也沒什麼必要就是你把你降因為稅就在那你要降你要有理由嘛那個理由就很清楚的充分的告訴大家如果你一直都在降那就直接告訴我們就不要那個稅啊那為什麼又要訂那個稅然後又要一直降這個怪怪的啦"},{"start":2687.951,"end":2711.999,"text":"如果要做那就把它明確化、明文化或制度化那第二個部分就我們今天有簡單如果說三年是一個指標的話我覺得第四年、第五年我也認為應該現在就可以把第四年、第五年講清楚之後就是地檢然後過國委員是兩年然後就不准再延那我們說你要不延也可以但是慢慢地降回去降到將來就不延了"},{"start":2712.199,"end":2729.129,"text":"我覺得這個也需要金管會跟財政部有一個立場很清楚的表達說你到底評估的方式是什麼然後指標理由是什麼如果沒有的話我覺得我們就不支持你繼續這樣然後每三年就用一個案子來這邊好像"},{"start":2730.396,"end":2750.067,"text":"黨的人又是壞人黨的人好像又是怎樣我覺得不好啦應該是說現在就應該政府的機制應該是穩定的長遠的那定出來的標準就按照那個標準來而不是每天用買菜的方式這個同意那個不同意我覺得沒有不好而且重要的是我們在因應國際社會的狀況我們的指標是什麼可能定出來比較好謝謝"},{"start":2752.36,"end":2780.763,"text":"好 謝謝珊珊我補介紹那個李坤城委員謝謝接著請郭國文委員發言好 謝謝主席我想當沖降稅重點不是降稅當初知事會談當沖降稅是為了造勢而降稅當初的那個市場的交易量不過是大概一千多一千四百沒有 那個甚至有到八百億然後後來慢慢回落到一千四然後後來才有一個當沖降稅的這個機制的存在"},{"start":2781.663,"end":2803.897,"text":"當中江穗這個機制的存在之後在當初我們認為這個交易量不足我記得沒有錯的話是從3000多億降到1000多億大家就非常緊張那問題是現在已經4000多億了那到底你要造勢到造什麼階段那明明政策目標已經到了你就應該要退場那你沒有退場"},{"start":2804.918,"end":2829.908,"text":"不但沒有退場還要延長不但延長甚至還要加碼想要把它法制化就是說我是覺得這個是沒道理的事情就是說就現階段的這個市場交易熱絡的情況底下當通調稅理當就應該退場了因為不是為了降稅而降稅如果為了減少交易成本而降而刺激這一個交易量的話那我很簡單啊"},{"start":2831.189,"end":2845.331,"text":"對業者講他自己可以免手續費啊為什麼要減少國家的稅收而且當中降稅你降到的結果是什麼樣其實老實講你衝兩次不就又回來了嗎你到底有沒有降到稅啊"},{"start":2846.572,"end":2874.031,"text":"到底有沒有降到稅我多沖兩次而已沖動的就沖兩次那這個沖動的結果呢是讓整個股市的震盪更加不安而已因為成本很便宜嘛大家就很用力沖嘛股市更加多讓他不安如果就剛剛羅委員的講法抱歉不是來吐槽如果真的要股市安定的話千萬不要當沖因為當沖成本很低大家更加要一直沖那川普的問題不是在這邊所以我這次之所以我會提出一個兩年"},{"start":2874.491,"end":2891.549,"text":"我是不得已的因為基本上馬上這個落日又很困難一年好像要太快只好兩年兩年以後下不為例這就是我的主張好 謝謝國委我民進黨是三年我是兩年民進黨也不是一言堂好 請崑禎委員發言"},{"start":2893.1,"end":2918.599,"text":"不會啊,不是宴堂,像我跟國文委員就不一樣啦我跟財政部、跟局管委員不一樣那其實齁,這個好像大概每三四年就會修一次啦那我們這次的版本是說到這個2017年嘛,到2017年,就是延長三年那我的版本齁,不好意思,我的版本是四年啦"},{"start":2922.748,"end":2940.442,"text":"不是我的四...我的四年不是說金管會財政部加起來5加3除以2等於4啦我主要是考慮到如果我們是到這個2017年底的話等於是2027年底啦那這個2028年就要選總統"},{"start":2946.306,"end":2968.389,"text":"那你如果說延長3年到2027年底那時候大家一定又再吵一次就是說那是不是還要再延長那我相信在那時候的這個選舉的氛圍我想大概延長機會也很大啦那我在想說那要不然就是說一個折衷的方式就是說那我們是不是延長4年到2028年"},{"start":2969.93,"end":2991.219,"text":"那2028年就是說至少避開了這個2027年總統大選的那一個時間然後這個2028年之後那有這個當然如果賴總統繼續連任當然院長有可能會換人那到時候再來決定再來決定就是說那是不是這個接下來我們這一個這個"},{"start":2995.482,"end":3024.842,"text":"這個法剛好怎麼修比較可長則久啦不然這個我們這個法大概三四年就修一次三四年就修一次我覺得也沒有這個法的一個安定性在啦那所以這個既然現在這個財政部跟金管會已經有達成共識那現在就是說那到底是幾年比較好兩年有兩年的說法那我當然四年有四年的說法啦那這個就看大家能不能談出一個共識出來以上"},{"start":3026.223,"end":3035.65,"text":"好,謝謝崑城,我想那個李崑城委員的四年,羅明才委員的五年那33N委員的JT4的一個遞減,那郭文貴委員的兩年"},{"start":3038.154,"end":3065.977,"text":"加落日條款那接著請財政部長就是針對每一位委員的一個建議那就是說財政部的一個看法跟意見來補充說明一下是,謝謝,謝謝昭緯謝謝各位委員我想我們的當沖降稅從106年實施以來已經看到它的效果第一個也提升了市場的成交量跟流動性那投資人的相關交易成本也所下降"},{"start":3066.477,"end":3075.143,"text":"那法律上因為到今年年底屆期那其實我們在半年前就開始跟金管會不管是資料的提供或商戶的討論我們認為就是說證券市場容易受到國際政治還有經濟情勢變動的影響"},{"start":3081.767,"end":3084.29,"text":"我們認為如果要維持證券市場交易的一個動能而且能夠促進市場穩定的發展還有降低一個不確定性我們認為這個當沖降稅呢就可以延長那至於期間的問題當然委員都有不同的意見比如說"},{"start":3097.262,"end":3112.234,"text":"那我們院版本經過討論以後認為還是以三年因為之前的延長大概都是第一次是一年之後是三年八個月第二次是三年我們認為就不要比這個更長那這個三年期間呢其實屆滿之前可以再做一次檢討如果是把它縮短為兩年的話那可能實施一年以後就要開始進行相關的檢討所以是支出評估整個期限比較短"},{"start":3121.281,"end":3142.219,"text":"那麼對於投資人來說他可能覺得一個不確定性過高影響他這個投資的一個信心的影響這個是為什麼沒有考慮兩年的部分那五年可能又有一些長為什麼因為其實經濟情勢的變化有時候是蠻快到五年的時候事實上要到四年以後才會繼續做檢討或者再來做重新的評估我們認為這個時間他可能比較長那如果以三年的話我們認為是比較合宜的"},{"start":3148.945,"end":3162.274,"text":"那有關民眾黨委員這邊所提出來是以階梯式的一個調整的話也就是前三年是用1.5第四年跟第五年又做階梯性調整其實三年兩年半以後的情況國際政經情勢情況"},{"start":3166.056,"end":3187.083,"text":"大家也許現在可以做一些預測預期但是事實上的狀況有很多是無法預期的因素也會發生所以我們認為說到那個時候要再做檢討會比較好現在就直接把它定成三年次多少然後第四年次多少、第五年次多少缺乏了這種一個期間內就可以做一些評估跟檢討的一個機制所以我們認為說這個部分"},{"start":3189.102,"end":3212.585,"text":"是不是可以支持院版本就是延長的期間是三年為宜以上的說明好 謝謝部長那個金管會副主委是不是就是金管會的一個立場來表達一下是 金管會也是支持這個行政院的原案那當然啦我們講說光譜兩端兩年到五年之間其實我們也有一個所謂的"},{"start":3213.846,"end":3241.903,"text":"這是不算真正慣例的慣例啦 三年那三年這部分的話就是說當然上山委員也有提到就是說我們在這個地方的一個調整那我也覺得 而且其實郭文貴委員真的我們也能理解或者說其實真的這樣子一直的永遠的一點也是一個很奇怪的一個方式但是真的其實剛剛如從部長所講的國際情勢在這個地方真的是瞬息萬變或這個地方"},{"start":3243.004,"end":3266.269,"text":"所以在這種的情況之下一個明確的落日條款或這一些其實的確我們到那個時候假設一個快速的演變我們要再去修法其實說實話而且我們覺得這種當沖降稅當沖本來就是個中性而當沖降或不降其實變成一種訊號理論就是說我們政府對於這個股是一個採取一個什麼訊號我覺得我很擔心這種東西隨時我們發出一個什麼訊號會再加上國際情勢是不穩定的"},{"start":3272.43,"end":3298.935,"text":"當然還有一點可以贊成就是我也覺得啦那我剛也責稱我們的棋局這一邊對於將來的一個我們評估的一些要素啦要點或這個地方其實這個地方我們也遵照國務委員、三商委員的一個指示我們會把這個因素啊以及這個要件把它定出來明確一些這樣子它來做一個評估的話可能也會比較就是說會更順暢一些謝謝"},{"start":3306.219,"end":3324.635,"text":"郭文我剛剛陳副主委說的訊號的理論確實是一個訊號是什麼訊號?就是股市已經相對成交量已經健全了你取消掉就說我已經進健全了明明身體已經很健康了你還一直讓他吃這個藥這反而以後會有副作用所以你該不該斷然"},{"start":3327.678,"end":3352.925,"text":"斷然停止停藥你就要停藥不要一直再吃下去了就是你的訊號很簡單啊你說我的成交量已經夠了嘛更何況現實上來看台灣目前的資本幾乎接近氾濫的階段錢會往哪裡跑不是往房地產不然就往股市那大家現在資本那個信用管制它不可能再一直往房地產跑啊那會往哪邊跑往股市這邊跑"},{"start":3353.365,"end":3369.376,"text":"第2個,我們的ETF長期的投資工具越來越健全接下來還有REITS這樣你股市還怕什麼?你還怕什麼?就差一個沒有TESA而已不是嗎?部長、署長對不對?對啊,TESA我們還沒有達成共識嘛,對不對?"},{"start":3370.217,"end":3387.632,"text":"這樣的TISA、RIS還有包括ETF建構起來的股票市場的那個機盤就夠大了根本不需要這個當沖降稅所以我所在的三年兩年我是不曉得珊珊委員的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":3388.553,"end":3398.386,"text":"我最重要的是你要對外宣示說我就是ok我對股票市場非常有信心三年之後我如果真的是三年兩年之後最重要的是我什麼時候斷奶什麼時候斷藥趕快講清楚"},{"start":3402.029,"end":3422.133,"text":"這不講清楚你講完之後這一次給你之後你下次還是左三年、右三年、再三年、來三年就繼續一直連任下去要搞到什麼時候這沒道理嘛你覺得對社會沒有道理嘛真正不確定性是不是市場啊真正不確定是政府啊政府的決策決策才真正不確定性啊常常要延長這問題點是在這邊啊不是在市場啊那個崑禎委員有沒有要補充的"},{"start":3428.991,"end":3443.38,"text":"沒有就是說齁這個不確定性就是在於說齁那我們三年之後就算今天財政部的版本金管會版本通過三年那我的意思是說三年之後大家一定會再討論那時候就正逢總統大選"},{"start":3445.426,"end":3464.562,"text":"那要嘛就是說我的版本就是四年總統大選之後再來討論那要嘛就是國文版本的、委員的還有版本那我們是不是有一個落入條款就是不然我跟你講三年之後我們還是會繼續來討論要不要再演三年一定是這樣子的啊那時候分我一定是要演啊"},{"start":3465.943,"end":3491.901,"text":"不言的話就表示說我們執政黨對股市這個沒有要去維護或是沒有要去怎麼樣給它信心怎麼之類的會變成這樣子啦我現在都可以預想到三年之後的樣子那個主席羅明才委員已經不在了啦不是不在啦他已經離開了現在黃三二委員在這邊嘛我們基本上都傾向落日條款嘛不然你就到年限你再加一個落日啊就做你今天的決議啊對啊好"},{"start":3495.731,"end":3523.664,"text":"那顯然就是在場的委員你們都提出來非常精闢的一個建議那我還是要再問一下如果我們照行政院版你們同意不同意顯然你們是不同意嘛三年假落日來部長跟副主委三年假落日跟你換好不好我想這個部分涉及到資本市場資本市場的一個"},{"start":3526.523,"end":3536.485,"text":"資本市場的一個評估我想可能還是要審慎是不是看金管會就主管機關有沒有什麼樣的看法好 那個金管會副主委"},{"start":3538.454,"end":3558.934,"text":"是,其實我還是基本上希望有一點彈性啦,就像中醫剛剛提到忘文問切嘛,我們三年前就給他定性了這些,是不是還是可以維持行政院的版本的彈性,我甚至覺得這個也是個方式,謝謝好,說沒有喔"},{"start":3564.047,"end":3573.839,"text":"請問在現場的三位委員那我就讓第二條之二跟第十六條條文我們都保留然後送院會去處理好不好"},{"start":3577.667,"end":3595.087,"text":"主席我還是希望說金管會或是說財政部還是要提出一個量化的指標出來啦對 這個其實是蠻重要的就是說當你達到什麼樣的成果就像國務委員講的說心天有高用"},{"start":3595.908,"end":3609.65,"text":"他是認為現在身體就很勇了啦他就說行政院有夠勇的那個指標在哪裡我是覺得說這個東西還是你等於是你三年之後你一定會再提一次的啦"},{"start":3610.367,"end":3614.072,"text":"主席主席主席主席"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-18T13:10:40.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:10:41.275000+08:00","text":"謝謝，不好意思。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-18T13:10:42.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:11:04.491000+08:00","text":"我們現在開始進入協商的主題「證券交易稅條例修正草案」案，除了委員\n會審查的 10 個版本以外，尚有本院郭國文委員等 17 人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文\n修正草案」，請審議案（逕付二讀）。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-18T13:11:58.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:12:18.028000+08:00","text":"接下來我們請各提案委員、黨團代表、政府官員還有財政部莊部長，分別就本次協商主題「\n證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」等案，審查會保留第二條之二及第十六\n條條文表達意見。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-18T13:12:23.419000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:12:24.719000+08:00","text":"來，請羅明才委員。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-11-18T13:12:24.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:12:24.920000+08:00","text":"謝謝召委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-11-18T13:12:25.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:12:43.270000+08:00","text":"我想當沖降稅從過去開始實施到現在，待會請部長回答一下，當沖降稅對\n稅收來講，我們的稅收是增加還是減少？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-11-18T13:12:44.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:12:45.752000+08:00","text":"增加的部分大概增加多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-11-18T13:12:49.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:13:14.786000+08:00","text":"為配合金管會彭主委發展\n亞洲資產管理中心的願景，所以本席提案當沖降稅延長 5 年，本席的理念是給予支持，因為現\n在國際情勢動盪不安，川普又當選，我們希望有更穩定的稅制，以免造成市場的衝擊。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-11-18T13:13:15.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:13:31.099000+08:00","text":"另外，\n我在這裡也要說明，如果 5 年大家願意支持，那就通過 5 年；如果 5 年不支持，退而求其次說\n必須一定要 3 年，我也表示支持。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-11-18T13:13:32.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:13:34.742000+08:00","text":"所以，召委，我可以先行告退了。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-18T13:13:40.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:13:40.860000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝明才。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-18T13:13:41.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:13:42.891000+08:00","text":"接著請黃珊珊委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-18T13:13:44.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:13:44.875000+08:00","text":"謝謝召委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-18T13:13:45.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:13:53.922000+08:00","text":"我們台灣民眾黨在提案的時候也是一樣，就是到底當沖降稅是不是常態化\n，還是希望政府部門是很明確的態度。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-18T13:13:54.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:14:01.349000+08:00","text":"第二個，如果真的要延的話，因為已經延過兩次，接下\n去要繼續延，我們也希望它是一個遞減的狀態。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-18T13:14:01.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:14:15.879000+08:00","text":"但是我也知道，因為現在國際經濟狀況不明確\n，對於臺灣來說，雖然當沖降稅的確是讓我們的證交稅減少了，但是也因為交易量增加了，當\n然也有很多的稅收。","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-18T13:14:16.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:14:28.626000+08:00","text":"重點是我剛剛還有跟副主委這邊說，我們希望將來 3 年後的檢討，如果你\n真的要再延 3 年，你還是要有個檢討，這個檢討的指標是什麼？","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-18T13:14:28.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:14:44.477000+08:00","text":"每一次碰到當沖降稅的原因、\n理由，還有為什麼要當沖降稅的這些指標，現在可能就要把它定清楚，我們希望這樣將來不會\n2\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 101 期 黨團協商紀錄\n變成又有兩派的意見，然後互相的拉扯，我覺得也沒什麼必要。","quality":0.822},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-18T13:14:44.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:15:00.231000+08:00","text":"就是你把降稅――因為稅制本就\n存在，你要降，你要有理由嘛，那就很清楚充分的告訴大家那個理由，如果你一直在降，那就\n直接告訴我們不要那個稅，為什麼又要定那個稅，然後又要一直降，這個怪怪的。","quality":0.866},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-18T13:15:00.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:15:04.352000+08:00","text":"如果要做，\n那就把它明確化、明文化或制度化。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-18T13:15:05.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:15:15.496000+08:00","text":"第二個部分，今天如果要簡單說 3 年是一個指標的話，我覺得第四年、第五年我也認為應該\n……現在就可以把第四年、第五年講清楚，之後就是遞減。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-18T13:15:17.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:15:33.284000+08:00","text":"郭國文委員的提案是 2 年，然後就\n不准再延，我們是說你要不延也可以，但是慢慢的降回去，將來就不延了，我覺得這個也需要\n金管會跟財政部表明立場，要很清楚的表達到底你評估的方式是什麼？","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-18T13:15:33.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:15:34.944000+08:00","text":"然後指標理由是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-18T13:15:34.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:16:02.106000+08:00","text":"如果沒有的話，我們就不支持你又繼續降，然後每 3 年就送一個案子來這邊，好像擋的就是壞\n人，擋的人好像又是怎樣，我覺得不好，應該是現在政府的機制就應該是穩定的、長遠的，訂\n定出來的標準，就按照那個標準來，而不是每天用買菜的方式，這個同意，那個不同意，我覺\n得那樣不好，而且重要的是我們要因應國際社會的狀況，我們的指標是什麼？","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-18T13:16:02.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:16:03.067000+08:00","text":"可能訂定出來比\n較好。謝謝。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-18T13:16:05.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:16:11.966000+08:00","text":"謝謝珊珊，接著請郭國文委員發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:16:13.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:16:13.607000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:16:14.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:16:33.743000+08:00","text":"我想當沖降稅的重點不是降稅，當初之所以談當沖降稅是為了造市而降稅\n，當初的市場交易量不過是在一千多億，甚至有到 800 億，之後慢慢回溫到 1,400 億，因此後來\n才有當沖降稅的機制存在。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:16:34.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:16:51.374000+08:00","text":"當沖降稅機制實施之後，當初我們認為交易量不足，我記得沒有錯\n的話，交易量是從三千多億降到一千多億，大家就非常緊張，問題是現在已經四千多億了，到\n底你要造市造到什麼階段？","quality":0.787},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:16:52.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:17:05.641000+08:00","text":"明明政策目標已經達到了，造市機制就應該要退場，不但沒有退場\n還要延長，不但延長甚至還要加碼，想要把它法制化，我覺得這是沒道理的事情。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:17:06.021000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:17:24.189000+08:00","text":"就現階段市場交易熱絡的情況底下，當沖降稅理當就應該退場了，因為不是為了降稅而降稅\n，如果為了刺激交易量而想減少交易成本的話，那也很簡單，對不對？","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:17:24.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:17:28.275000+08:00","text":"業者自己可以免手續費\n，為什麼要減少國家的稅收？","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:17:29.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:17:32.682000+08:00","text":"而且當沖降稅，你降稅的結果是什麼樣？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:17:33.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:17:38.311000+08:00","text":"老實講你沖兩次不就又\n回來了嗎，你到底有沒有降到稅啊？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:17:39.572000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:17:52.501000+08:00","text":"你到底有沒有降到稅，我多沖兩次而已，衝動的就沖兩次\n，但這個衝動的結果是整個股市更加震盪不安而已，因為成本很便宜，大家就很用力沖，股市\n更加震盪不安。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:17:53.101000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:18:01.727000+08:00","text":"如果就剛剛羅委員的講法，「歹勢」，不是給你吐槽，如果真的要股市安定的\n話，千萬不要當沖，因為當沖成本很低，大家更加一直沖。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:18:01.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:18:17.341000+08:00","text":"川普的問題不是在這邊，所以，我\n這一次之所以會提出延長 2 年，我是不得已的，基本上要馬上落日又很困難，延長 1 年好像又\n太快，只好 2 年，2 年以後下不為例，這就是我的主張。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-11-18T13:18:17.341000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T13:18:20.304000+08:00","text":"你們民進黨的版本是 3 年。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:18:20.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:18:22.887000+08:00","text":"我們民進黨是 3 年，我是 2 年，民進黨又不是一言堂。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-18T13:18:26.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:18:26.300000+08:00","text":"不會啦！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-18T13:18:26.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:18:33.726000+08:00","text":"不是一言堂，像我跟國文委員的主張就不一樣，我跟財政部跟金管會也不一\n樣。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-18T13:18:33.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:18:51.379000+08:00","text":"其實此案好像大概每三、四年就會修一次，我們這一次的版本是延長 3 年到 2027 年，那我\n3\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 101 期 黨團協商紀錄\n的版本，不好意思，我的版本是 4 年。","quality":0.672},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-18T13:18:56.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:19:34.542000+08:00","text":"我的 4 年不是把金管會、財政部加起來，5 加 3 除以 2 等\n於 4，我主要是考慮到如果我們是延到 2027 年底的話，2028 年又要選總統，如果延長 3 年到\n2027 年底，那時候大家一定又會針對是不是還要延長再吵一次，我相信在那時候的選舉氛圍下\n，大概延長的機會也很大。","quality":0.876},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-18T13:19:35.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:19:49.253000+08:00","text":"我就想那要不然就採取一個折衷的方式，我們是不是延長 4 年到\n2028 年，至少避開 2027 年總統大選的那個時段。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-18T13:19:49.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:20:10.564000+08:00","text":"然後 2028 年如果賴總統繼續連任，當然院長\n有可能會換人，到時候再來決定，接下來這個法看要怎麼修比較可長可久。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-18T13:20:11.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:20:18.869000+08:00","text":"不然我們這個法大\n概 3、4 年就修一次，3、4 年就修一次，我覺得也沒有法的安定性在。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-18T13:20:19.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:20:37.822000+08:00","text":"所以，既然現在財政部跟\n金管會已經達成共識，現在就是到底幾年比較好，2 年有 2 年的說法，當然我 4 年有 4 年的說法\n，就看大家能不能談出一個共識，以上。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-18T13:20:39.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:20:39.423000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝坤城。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-18T13:20:41.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:20:48.630000+08:00","text":"李坤城委員的是 4 年，羅明才委員的是 5 年，珊珊委員的是階梯式的遞減，\n郭國文委員的是 2 年……","quality":0.694},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:20:51.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:20:52.035000+08:00","text":"加落日條款。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-18T13:20:52.035000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T13:20:54.597000+08:00","text":"加落日條款。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-18T13:20:54.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:21:03.444000+08:00","text":"請財政部長針對每一位委員的建議，就財政部的看法跟意見來補充說明一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-11-18T13:21:05.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:21:07.828000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝召委，謝謝各位委員。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-11-18T13:21:08.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:21:18.957000+08:00","text":"我們的當沖降稅，從 106 年實施以來已經看到它的效\n果，第一個提升了市場的成交量跟流動性，投資人的相關交易成本也有所下降。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-11-18T13:21:20.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:21:36.609000+08:00","text":"法律上因為到\n今年年底屆期，其實我們在半年前就開始跟金管會溝通，包括資料的提供或相互的討論，我們\n認為證券市場容易受到國際政治還有經濟情勢變動的影響，如果要維持證券市場的交易動能，\n促進市場穩定的發展還有降低市場的不確定性，我們認為這個當沖降稅可以延長。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-11-18T13:21:36.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:22:03.493000+08:00","text":"至於期間的問題，當然委員都有不同的意見，譬如我們院版本經過討論以後認為還是以 3 年\n為宜，因為之前的延長，第一次是 1 年，最後是 3 年 8 個月，第二次是 3 年，我們認為就不要\n比這個更長，在 3 年期間屆滿之前，可以再做一次檢討。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-11-18T13:22:03.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:22:23.869000+08:00","text":"如果把它縮短為 2 年的話，那可能實\n施 1 年以後就要開始進行相關的檢討，稅式支出評估整個期限比較短，對於投資人來說，可能\n覺得不確定性過高而影響他投資的信心，這是為什麼沒有考慮 2 年的原因。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-11-18T13:22:24.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:22:27.773000+08:00","text":"那 5 年可能又有一\n些長，為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-11-18T13:22:27.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:22:35.199000+08:00","text":"因為其實經濟情勢的變化有時候是滿快的，延到 5 年的時候，事實上要到 4 年\n以後才會去檢討或者再來重新評估，這個時間可能比較長，因此 3 年我們認為是比較合宜的。","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-11-18T13:22:42.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:23:09.759000+08:00","text":"民眾黨委員這邊所提出來的是階梯式的調整，也就是前三年是用 1.5，第 4 年跟第 5 年要做階\n梯式的調整，其實兩年半以後的國際政經情勢的情況，大家也許現在可以做一些預測、預期，\n但是事實上有很多無法預期的因素也會發生，所以我們認為到那個時候再檢討會比較好。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-11-18T13:23:10.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:23:19.642000+08:00","text":"現在\n就直接把它訂成 3 年是多少，然後第 4 年是多少，第 5 年是多少，缺乏這種一定期間內就可以\n做一些評估跟檢討的機制。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-11-18T13:23:19.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:23:28.008000+08:00","text":"所以我們認為，這個部分是不是可以支持院版，就是延長的期間是 3\n年為宜，以上說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-18T13:23:29.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:23:35.735000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝部長，是不是請金管會副主委就金管會的立場來表達一下？是。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員彥良","start":"2024-11-18T13:23:36.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:23:49.888000+08:00","text":"金管會也是支持行政院的原案，那當然我們常常說光譜的兩端 2 年到 5 年\n之間，其實我們也有一個不算真正慣例的慣例就是 3 年。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員彥良","start":"2024-11-18T13:23:50.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:24:08.179000+08:00","text":"3 年這部分的話，當然珊珊委員也有提\n到我們在這個地方的調整，我也覺得其實國文委員的說法我們真的也能理解，或是說真的這樣\n4\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 101 期 黨團協商紀錄\n子一直延、一直延、永遠的 1.5，也是很奇怪的一個方式。","quality":0.678},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員彥良","start":"2024-11-18T13:24:08.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:24:39.249000+08:00","text":"但是如同剛剛部長所講的，國際情勢\n真的是瞬息萬變，在這種情況之下，一個明確的落日條款或這一些……的確我們到那個時候，\n假設情勢快速的演變，我們要再去修法，說實話……而且我們覺得這種當沖降稅，當沖本來是\n中性的，而降或不降其實變成一種訊號理論，就是我們政府對於股市採取什麼樣的訊號，我覺\n得我很擔心這種東西我們隨時發出一個什麼訊號會……再加上國際情勢是不穩定的。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員彥良","start":"2024-11-18T13:24:45.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:25:11.935000+08:00","text":"當然，還\n有一點可以贊成，我剛剛也責成我們期局，對於將來我們評估的一些要素、要點，其實這個地\n方我們也遵照國文委員、珊珊委員的指示，我們會把這個因素以及要件明確的定出來，這樣子\n來做評估的話，可能也會比較順暢一些，謝謝。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:25:21.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:25:25.685000+08:00","text":"針對剛剛陳副主委說的訊號理論，對，確實是一個訊號，是什麼訊號呢？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:25:25.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:25:31.510000+08:00","text":"就是股市的\n成交量已經相對健全了，你取消掉就表示股市已經健全了。","quality":0.759},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:25:32.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:25:44.259000+08:00","text":"明明身體已經很健康了，你還一直\n讓他吃這個藥，這樣反而以後會有副作用，所以你該斷然停止、停藥，你就要停藥，不要再一\n直吃下去了。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:25:45.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:25:55.182000+08:00","text":"你的訊號很簡單，股市的成交量已經夠了嘛，更何況現實上來看，臺灣目前的資\n本幾乎接近氾濫的階段，錢會往哪裡跑？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:25:55.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:26:04.124000+08:00","text":"不是往房地產，要不然就往股市，現在央行又推信用\n管制，資本不可能再一直往房地產跑，那會往哪邊跑？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:26:05.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:26:05.905000+08:00","text":"一定往股市這邊跑。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:26:06.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:26:14.371000+08:00","text":"第二個，我們的 ETF 長期的投資工具越來越健全，接下來還有 REITs，這樣你股市還怕什麼\n？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:26:14.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:26:15.572000+08:00","text":"你還怕什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:26:15.572000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:26:17.453000+08:00","text":"就差一個沒有 TISA 而已，不是嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:26:17.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:26:18.234000+08:00","text":"部長、署長，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:26:18.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:26:22.376000+08:00","text":"TISA 我們還沒有達\n成共識，對不對？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:26:23.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:26:34.447000+08:00","text":"這種 TISA、REITs 還有包括 ETF 建構起來的股票市場的基盤就夠大了，根本\n不需要當沖降稅。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:26:34.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:26:51.366000+08:00","text":"所以我說實在的，3 年、2 年都……\n我是不曉得珊珊委員的看法是怎麼樣，最重要的是你要對外宣示說我就是 OK，我對股票市場\n非常有信心，3 年或是 2 年之後，最重要的是我什麼時候要斷奶，什麼時候要斷藥，趕快講清楚\n。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:26:55.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:27:02.671000+08:00","text":"這一點不講清楚，這一次你講完給你之後，你下次還是左三年、右三年、再三年、來三年，\n就持續一直延下去，要搞到什麼時候？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:27:03.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:27:03.951000+08:00","text":"這沒道理嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:27:04.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:27:05.691000+08:00","text":"對社會沒有道理嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:27:06.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:27:14.793000+08:00","text":"真正的不確定性不是\n在市場，真正的不確定性是政府，政府的決策才是真正的不確定性，常常要延長，問題點是在\n這邊，不是在市場。","quality":0.717},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-18T13:27:14.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:27:36.380000+08:00","text":"沒有，這個不確定性在於 3 年之後，就算今天財政部的版本、金管會的版本通過了 3\n年，我的意思就是說 3 年之後，大家一定會再討論，然後那時候又正逢總統大選。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-18T13:27:38.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:27:48.755000+08:00","text":"要嘛就是照\n我的版本 4 年，總統大選之後再來討論，要嘛就是國文委員還有其他委員的版本，那我們是不\n是要有一個落日條款？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-18T13:27:50.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:27:57.542000+08:00","text":"不然我跟你講，3 年之後我們還是會繼續再討論要不要再延 3 年，一定是\n這樣子的，那時候的氛圍一定是要延啊！","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-18T13:27:58.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:28:07.909000+08:00","text":"不延的話就表示我們執政黨沒有要去維護股市或者是\n沒有要去給它信心之類的，會變成這樣子啦！","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-18T13:28:08.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:28:10.391000+08:00","text":"我現在都可以預想到 3 年之後的樣子。","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:28:11.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:28:24.680000+08:00","text":"主席，羅明才委員已經不在場了，他已經離開了，現在黃珊珊委員在這邊，我們基本\n上都傾向於設定落日條款，不然你就待會年限部分再押一個落日，就做成今天的決議啊！贊成。","quality":0.803},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-18T13:28:24.680000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T13:28:29.291000+08:00","text":"5\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 101 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-18T13:28:29.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:28:39.556000+08:00","text":"顯然在場的委員都提出非常精闢的建議，我還是要再問一下，如果我們照行政院版，你們同\n意不同意？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-18T13:28:39.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:28:40.836000+08:00","text":"顯然你們是不同意嘛？","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:28:40.836000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T13:28:41.966500+08:00","text":"3 年加落日，我們就同意。","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-11-18T13:28:41.966500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T13:28:43.097000+08:00","text":"加落日。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-18T13:28:43.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:28:52.101000+08:00","text":"3 年加落日，來，請問部長跟副主委，3 年加落日跟你換，好不好？","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-11-18T13:28:52.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:28:55.683000+08:00","text":"我想這個部分涉及到資本市場……","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-11-18T13:28:55.683000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T13:28:59.523000+08:00","text":"那就 2 年換落日喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-11-18T13:28:59.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:29:07.040000+08:00","text":"資本市場的一個評估，我想可能還是要審慎，是不是看看金管會，就是主管機關有沒\n有什麼樣的看法。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員彥良","start":"2024-11-18T13:29:11.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:29:26.869000+08:00","text":"其實基本上我還是希望有一點彈性，就像中醫，剛才委員有提到望、聞、問、\n切嘛，我們 3 年前就給它定性是這些，是不是還是可以維持行政院版本的彈性？","quality":0.817},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員彥良","start":"2024-11-18T13:29:27.049000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:29:29.752000+08:00","text":"我甚至覺得這\n也是個方式。謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-18T13:29:29.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:29:46.819000+08:00","text":"好，談不攏喔，大家沒有交集，請問在現場的三位委員，那我們就讓第二條之二跟第十六條\n條文都保留送院會去處理，好不好？好。好。","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-18T13:29:50.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:30:01.620000+08:00","text":"主席，我還是希望金管會或是財政部，還是要提出一個量化的指標出來啦！對啊！","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-18T13:30:03.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:30:10.431000+08:00","text":"就是當你達到什麼樣的成果，就像國文講的，身體若是有夠勇……他是認為現\n在身體就很勇了啦！","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-18T13:30:12.534000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:30:16.761000+08:00","text":"但是身體若是夠勇的那個指標在哪裡，我是覺得……","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-18T13:30:16.761000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T13:30:17.761000+08:00","text":"對，必須要有一個數字作為參考指標，對，標準要出來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-11-18T13:30:17.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T13:30:22.630000+08:00","text":"這個東西還是要提出來，不然等於 3 年之後，你一定會又再提一次的啦！對啊！","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-18T13:30:23.130000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T13:30:28.558571+08:00","text":"好，那我們其餘都遵照審查會審查的結果通過。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-18T13:30:28.858571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T13:30:34.572857+08:00","text":"今天我們的協商會議就到此結束，謝謝，謝\n謝大家。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-18T13:30:34.872857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T13:30:40.301429+08:00","text":"散會（13 時 30 分）\n6\n立法院公報 第 113 卷 第 101 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}