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江湖院長 各位委員先進 大家好113年度中央政府總預算追加預算案的編制概況和主要重點左院長已經做了說明 現在請就追加預算案的編制經過和內容概要進一步提出報告"},{"start":2028.372,"end":2036.835,"text":"113年度中央總預算前進大院審議合列稅入2兆7,252億元稅出2兆8,519億元稅入稅出差短1,267億元連同債務返本1,150億元合共融資調度數2,417億元已發行公債1,571億元"},{"start":2052.239,"end":2072.273,"text":"及移用以前年度稅基剩餘846億元餘裕彌平由於二屋戰爭導致國際燃料價格上漲臺灣電力股份有限公司花電燃料成本較二屋戰爭前倍增然而該公司承載減緩通膨的政治任務會有效減緩國際燃料飆漲導致電價大幅上漲"},{"start":2076.436,"end":2103.866,"text":"並照顧民生穩定物價支持弱勢及堅固產業競爭力該公司以低用電成本計收電費致產生虧損請行政院評估為支持維繫該公司正常營運使其續行穩定供電的一個使命原依照預算法第79條第三款及第80條的規定籌編完成本最佳預算案它主要的內容如下一、稅出編列"},{"start":2105.006,"end":2123.822,"text":"一千億元全數編列於經濟部主管向下系補助台電公司因國際燃料成本上漲為穩定物價及照顧民生弱勢所吸收用電成本所需的一個經費二、以上稅出追加一千億元規劃以用以前年度稅計剩餘為裁員來支應為因112年度總決算所產生的稅計剩餘"},{"start":2129.467,"end":2149.663,"text":"虛示113年7月審計部審定後使得運用故5月提出本最佳預算案時先行編列舉借債務視預算執行使在審計部審定後的稅計剩餘之印綜上最佳預算結果113年中央政府總預算稅入為2兆7252億元稅出增為2兆9519億元稅出差短為2267億元"},{"start":2158.97,"end":2186.742,"text":"連同債務版本1,150億元和共需融資調度數3,417億元以發行公債2,571億元及移用以前年度稅基剩餘846億元予以米平以上對於113年度中央政府追加預算案的報告敬請各位委員、理事先生會與指教並鼎力支持完成審議備能順利推動祝福大家健康快樂萬事如意謝謝"},{"start":2191.895,"end":2195.066,"text":"謝謝陳主席長的報告接下來我們請財政部莊部長報告"},{"start":2207.37,"end":2226.853,"text":"韓院長江副院長各位委員先進大家好113年度中央政府總預算追加預算案有關稅務籌編的情形做以下報告本追加預算案稅出追加新台幣1000億元補助台電公司近年因為國際燃料成本的上漲"},{"start":2227.754,"end":2251.37,"text":"為了穩定物價照顧民生以及支持弱勢所吸收用電成本的經費那麼裁員規劃移用以前年度的稅計剩餘考量編列的時候因為112年度的中央政府總決算所產生的稅計剩餘還沒有經過審計部的審定所以先編列舉借債務等到預算執行的時候再以稅計剩餘來做支應"},{"start":2253.852,"end":2261.579,"text":"113年度的中央政府總預算並繼本追加預算案以後稅率維持不變是2兆7252億稅出編列2兆9519億稅率稅出差短2200"},{"start":2270.067,"end":2275.87,"text":"67億加計債務還本數1150億融資需求3417億規劃移用以前年度稅計剩餘846億元以及舉債2571億實際執行時將會依照上開的規劃優先移用以前年度稅計剩餘來支應本追加預算案的稅出需求"},{"start":2299.298,"end":2308.862,"text":"在債務控管的部分首先是債務的存量截至113年的10月底中央政府長期債務餘額實際數是5兆8780億那麼佔前三年度的明目GDP的平均數是26%"},{"start":2317.645,"end":2328.788,"text":"到113年底長期債務餘額的預算數依照公共債務法的規定是按照112年底中央政府長期債務餘額實際數的5兆8188億連同歷年特別預算融資調度的保留數2397億再加上113年度"},{"start":2339.75,"end":2364.482,"text":"預計的債務舉借數在我們在扣除我們的債務償還數以後所以預估到113年底那麼中央政府長期債務的餘額是6兆7200億但是在這裡我們要特別說明的是113年度由於稅務總預算的稅務執行良好那麼原編列的舉借數全數都沒有舉借到時候113年底長期債務餘額的預算數將會隨之減少"},{"start":2369.324,"end":2398.341,"text":"但是縱然依照我們剛剛所提的6兆7200億元的預算的財務餘額來計算的話那麼佔前三年度明目GDP的平均數也是29.7%是低於公債法所定的債務存量上限40.6%那麼在實際執行的時候由於112年度中央政府總決算的稅計剩餘足以支應本追加預算案所以無需要舉借債務"},{"start":2399.201,"end":2402.254,"text":"那麼前夜的債務比例也將會再下降"},{"start":2403.854,"end":2430.986,"text":"在債務流量的部分目前所執行的前瞻基礎建設新式戰機採購以及海空戰力提升計劃的採購等特別條例都排除了公債法裡面單一年度債務流量的管制那至於疫後強化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果的特別條例則沒有排除單一年度債務流量的管制所以113年度的法定債務流量的比率"},{"start":2431.466,"end":2433.988,"text":"依照總預算舉借數2571億來佔總預算及易後特別條例的預算的稅出合計3兆158億來計算的話比例也是在8.5%還在債務流量15%的上限範圍內"},{"start":2451.238,"end":2477.161,"text":"那麼各特別條例施行期間的債務流量包含前瞻基礎建設新式戰機採購以及海空戰力提升計劃採購等特別條例都有規定施行期間的舉債額度合計數不可以超過該期間稅出總額合計數的15%那麼經過計算上開各特別條例施行期間到113年度各該特別預算連同總預算"},{"start":2479.442,"end":2502.115,"text":"舉借暫其稅出的比率都符合施行期間債務流量的規定為了支持維繫台電公司的正常營運使它續行穩定供電的使命所以提出本追加預算案補助該公司一千億元由於近年政府財政持續的改善在預算執行的時候將移用以前年度的稅計剩餘為財源的支應"},{"start":2504.236,"end":2517.724,"text":"本部會課尊預算法財政紀律法及公共債務法等規定來管控債務兼顧財政的穩健以及經濟的發展以上報告敬請各位委員會議指教鼎力支持謝謝"},{"start":2522.537,"end":2538.984,"text":"謝謝財政部莊部長的報告法院會現在我們進行委員的諮詢每位委員訓導時間不得超過15分鐘輪到諮詢的委員如不在場我們視同放棄首先我們請第一位傅坤祺委員諮詢"},{"start":2561.845,"end":2586.53,"text":"主席請院長麻煩請卓院長備詢院長好剛剛聽聞今天院長來立法院做追加預算一千億要來補貼排電"},{"start":2590.034,"end":2619.329,"text":"重大的累積虧損剛剛聽到院長所在院會所提出的報告說我們再補貼一千億元是因為我們跟全世界各國來比較因為二五戰爭之後影響到大家發電的成本所以我們必須要再來補貼請問一下院長這是剛剛您所提出來的報告雖然本期今天早上才看到"},{"start":2620.414,"end":2647.866,"text":"剛剛您報告完請問一下法國因為二五戰爭補貼了七千億元七千億元作為這個人員的這個漲幅的價差七千億元台灣總共去年、今年、明年總共要補貼跟增資多少錢我們增資從"},{"start":2649.455,"end":2658.637,"text":"2023年到2024年增資是2500億本席給你看一下112年增資1500億以後條例撥補500億113年增資1000億現在追加1000億要撥補明年要1000億總共5000億明年的追加是多少還不曉得目前就是5000億好"},{"start":2677.281,"end":2683.302,"text":"我們是5000億這個數字對吧是的我們有2500億是增資其餘是撥補你說因為法國也補貼了燃料的價差7000億台幣我們是5000億台幣請問一下院長台灣一年的GDP是多少錢我們現在3萬多元"},{"start":2702.553,"end":2725.441,"text":"總量是多少錢國家的GDP不是人均GDP國家GDP26兆台幣回答非常正確請問法國一年的GDP是多少台幣報告委員當然不是這樣的比較沒有關係嘛是不是這樣比較各有看法不同但請你尊重我的提問請你尊重我的提問"},{"start":2731.643,"end":2760.45,"text":"請問一下法國一年的GDP是多少兆台幣這個我再查清楚沒有關係一年大概是三兆多美元大概是一百兆台幣是一百兆台幣的一百兆台幣的一年GDP的法國是補助七千億台灣才26兆台幣的GDP要補貼五千億再看日本"},{"start":2761.351,"end":2776.657,"text":"日本補貼了5500億日本GDP是台灣的幾倍數字我再跟委員沒有關係超過台灣三倍以上人家補貼5500億台灣要補貼5000億院長把問題找出來嘛問題惡物戰爭能源的漲價轉嫁成為成本這個大家都知道但是台灣為什麼這麼高額的補貼原因在哪裡"},{"start":2792.382,"end":2818.03,"text":"這都是您剛剛的報告本席就坐在下面聽本席現在就會告訴你不是國際能源的漲幅而已是因為綠能政策的不當跟這麼多的弊案拿人民的血汗錢來補貼所以我們如何調整能源政策院長這才是可長可久我們該做的事情"},{"start":2818.803,"end":2835.757,"text":"給您做參考一句話我們的民生用電還是比其他各國便宜這個補貼政策的程度是比較大的現在再請您看一下到現在為止原本台電在民國110年還是盈餘225億現在已經虧損光這三年111到現在已經加起來"},{"start":2848.442,"end":2876.15,"text":"5500億的虧損在立法院預算中心的資料我們這個無底洞要填到什麼時候不是因為惡霧戰爭能源的問題現在全世界能源已經回到惡霧戰爭之前的價位了但是我們還在聚合的補貼我們看一下適當的能源政策再來看我們自行發電去年自行發電"},{"start":2877.611,"end":2884.173,"text":"燃煤燃氣3塊4毛3、3塊4毛4核能發電1塊3毛9我們購入的電力政府買的電再生能源5塊2風力發電6塊7太陽能光電4塊8毛8請問台電怎麼可能不倒台電怎麼可能不倒用這個方式繼續推下去"},{"start":2904.124,"end":2933.637,"text":"立法院預算中心都有意見預算中心都有意見所以報告我一句話發展綠能是全世界的共識我們必須要發展綠能綠能是世界的共識但人家並沒有排除核能本席不反對發展綠能但是我們的核能所以我們看一下要五千億我們本席光講這次的一千億的追加一千億可以做什麼請院長聆聽一下"},{"start":2934.329,"end":2957.638,"text":"一千億可以讓全國的孩子八年的營養午餐全部免費一千億可以做什麼五百到一千個長照機構在全國可以蓋一萬五千戶的社會住宅可以讓百萬的孩童學前的教育經費由政府來提供"},{"start":2959.366,"end":2980.514,"text":"或者是全國四百八十萬的老人三年免健保費本席跟您建議錢可以這樣用錢可以這樣花報告委員一句話我們也再看一下一建議讓台電財務健全也穩定發電也可以供給更多的產業造就更多的"},{"start":2984.425,"end":2997.749,"text":"院長本席覺得真的蠻可惜的一個理性溝通的說明會可以讓很多事情能夠更了解我也覺得可惜"},{"start":3014.06,"end":3041.248,"text":"從陳水扁前總統執政的8年換了6個閣魁到蔡英文總統至少換了4位閣魁您到台中去再講2032年的事情再講8年後的事情請問一下院長您真的是啊 太膨脹了8年後你還在當行政院長嗎當然不在"},{"start":3043.018,"end":3067.973,"text":"政策的一貫是必須要做到的過去的經濟部長怎麼講臺中多一個燃氣就少一個燃煤沒錯啊但是我們政府為什麼不好好的來貫徹對人民的包括我們現在也是一樣啊所以現在跟台中人講清楚臺灣這一些沒有人能夠再忍受八年後"},{"start":3069.11,"end":3089.922,"text":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條條文修正草案：第11屆第12會議報告事項：本院民進黨黨團：第12會議報告事項：鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條條文修正草案：第12會議報告事項：鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條條文修正草案：第12會議報告事項：鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具:「原住民保留地�"},{"start":3098.55,"end":3124.889,"text":"因為2045年之前要興建10座核電廠全世界已經走回核電乾淨的能源只有台灣還在意識形態台電必然會倒這個物體棟院長你能做多久我不知道但我們對這塊土地要負責如果台電破產我們國家怎麼辦我們還有多少年每一年要這樣來補貼院長"},{"start":3128.032,"end":3150.705,"text":"您做參考本席語重心長謝謝委員的提醒接下來我們再看看院長是中理整個行政院但是你用的經濟部長我們來看看你們用的經濟部長從520到現在有很多奇奇怪怪的這些言論"},{"start":3152.369,"end":3180.514,"text":"非常多很奇怪的言論但是又沒有風苦跟沒有腰桿挺直說我們國家應該要恢復用核電而且明確要用核電每一天啊做一些小丑式的小丑跳樑式的一些無厘頭的一些發言說要到菲律賓蓋電廠300多公里的海底電線電纜就算設了花了幾千億設下去光電源到台灣"},{"start":3181.84,"end":3202.449,"text":"至少要入30幾%到40%這樣的經濟部長結果啊原來台灣最大的問題最多的這所有的綠能集團到這邊插旗是不是都講好了都講好了是嗎我可以回答嗎報告委員齁我們都計算過了"},{"start":3209.468,"end":3236.821,"text":"那麼你上面的這個標題阿可能是有點誤解因為你講了半天白痴阿這聽不懂我們跟如果我講過了跟這個情報沒有關係的如果可行請你就堅持做下去就堅持做阿你就做阿沒有關係阿你認為對的你就堅持嘛沒有關係我講過了我買電一定不會超過現在的成本你看一下齁你用的這位部長"},{"start":3238.39,"end":3266.482,"text":"郭志輝先生他是崇業科技一個小公司資本才18億的小公司他不是真正的科技研發科技生產製造他是一個代理商一個批發商一個Blocker這樣的一個小公司的一個企業主來當我們的經濟部長真的做大了真的做大了我們看一下齁我們這一位尊敬的部長"},{"start":3270.948,"end":3298.157,"text":"我不曉得他是台灣的經濟部長還是日本的招商局長台積電去熊本他把他上下游產業通通要帶去日本請問一下美中大戰在打什麼就在打科技戰科技戰是什麼科技含量最高科技含金量最高投入資金最大人才最多消費最多"},{"start":3299.448,"end":3314.729,"text":"每一個人民富財富最多如果這些人離開台灣台灣就空掉了台灣就空掉了現在郭部長還在做他的老本行我不曉得他當部長還是當董事長幫日本的熊本"},{"start":3316.294,"end":3327.883,"text":"在招商這是我們的部長嗎?再看一下台積電為什麼是護國神章?台積電為什麼是護國神章?院長你的腳法本席的問題請你看清楚台積電為什麼是護國神章?全國軍營代工市佔率62.3%全世界先進製程市佔率92%所有AI晶片的生產市佔率將近全球的100%"},{"start":3344.702,"end":3366.676,"text":"有台積電在台灣沒有人敢動台灣把台積電搬走我告訴你啊台積電搬走台灣就空掉了資金也跑了人才也跑了消費也跑了財產也拿走了這個就是我們的不應該我們的部長現在是日本的招商局長我們再看一下您的這位部長"},{"start":3368.629,"end":3389.44,"text":"他在幫熊本招商 原來2023年啦崇岳集在熊本 設立據點目標10年內上市所以現在又在做部落卡的生意 又在招商再來看看你這位部長看一下 他今年要接任部長"},{"start":3390.894,"end":3416.896,"text":"4月10號轉讓了他名下的19億所有的股票7550張從業股票請問部長轉到那裡去了轉到那裡去了回答啊轉到那裡去了沒有辦法回答我都照實申報照實申報好你這個照實北京要揭穿你的照實他轉到那裡去竟然用自己的小孩當人頭啊"},{"start":3419.482,"end":3444.619,"text":"他轉到他兒子一個高益投資他兒子只有480股4800塊台幣的股份這家公司有8000萬郭志輝持有99.9%而且4月10號轉讓這家公司竟然還沒有核准籌備處就4月24號才核准4月24號才核准竟然10號就轉讓"},{"start":3446.837,"end":3471.79,"text":"然後這家公司用我兒子當人頭規避財產申報報告委員你這個說法我全體在查過你的財產申報我安全同場法律的公職申報你這個不實質化我表示抗議掏空台灣規避監督以公謀私最後院長請你再看最後一頁"},{"start":3473.055,"end":3475.656,"text":"請你看好委員的推論邏輯都有問題應該給部長充分的說明謝謝謝謝"},{"start":3504.482,"end":3515.191,"text":"好謝謝好謝謝謝謝副控局委員時間已到謝謝副控局委員的諮詢謝謝卓院長部長的諮詢謝謝謝謝好謝謝好好謝謝"},{"start":3533.183,"end":3543.68,"text":"好 謝謝卓院長 郭部長的備詢 請坐 請回座 謝謝接下來我們請登記第二號 張祺凱委員質詢"},{"start":3578.526,"end":3606.392,"text":"謝謝主席我們請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長參議員好卓院長早前幾天我去行政院協商那天我們非常底線務實苛決的協商那天我們終於達成了共識讓總預算可以順利的復違"},{"start":3607.509,"end":3625.838,"text":"那天的媒體是這樣講說為朝委合作建立了樹立了好的榜樣那天能夠達成協商有兩個很重要第一個那天我們依法很理性務實在討論對不對第二個重點為什麼我們會簽這個協議因為對你的保證我們做了投了一票"},{"start":3626.61,"end":3646.725,"text":"所以我今天一樣拿出這個結論請你再照顧原住民照顧農民跟醫護這三項決議要趕快落實好不好你現在追加這1000萬追加1000億這個錢比那個1000億少太多了請趕快兌現你的諾言照顧農民原住民跟醫護人員好不好"},{"start":3648.38,"end":3660.008,"text":"委員應該知道國家政策是整體的啦錢多錢少照顧對我們來講不論是政策的執行都是一樣的重要我很感謝當天的協商大家能夠"},{"start":3661.735,"end":3687.905,"text":"各退一方但是我們朝向是一個未來理性的互動這個是值得稱許的那我也希望說這樣的過程以後不一定要這麼麻煩很多是可以順順利利的但是如果有需要我們在當面的溝通我當然很樂意把我們的意識政策說明得很清楚那天大家朝委也都簽了字也是對你信用跟承諾的投了一票請趕快落實好不好今天一樣我為什麼提這個當頭呢"},{"start":3689.398,"end":3717.078,"text":"這是草野和諧的一個榜樣啊一樣今天談這個一千億我們也希望是非常理性、務實、科學來討論好不好我先跟你談一個很重要的點為什麼今天又要追加這一千億你過三年已經追了三次啊三千億嘛欸 漲價已經漲了五次啊那為什麼這變成一個無理動?越報越大坑啊一坑黑人人那一定有問題嘛所以不是只有撥補的問題應該去想到底出什麼問題好 其中有一個大的黑洞"},{"start":3717.961,"end":3745.28,"text":"就是賴清德賴總統前幾天講的因為在買綠電的過程裡面產生了一堆的弊案對不對所以賴清德總統怎麼說他第一天就說喊話叫陳啟毅台院綠能台院的董事長前董事長陳啟毅趕快報案這是一個嘛第二最重要喔他說啊整個行政體系要趕快去檢討出了什麼問題要去破洞補起來嘛對不對"},{"start":3746.175,"end":3772.616,"text":"好那我問你我現在用陳其藝這個事情來做比擬這是賴清德賴總統講的第一趕快把人抓回來啊第二趕快把相關的錢補回來啊院長你知道這個錢有多少嗎人趕快抓回來不是只有總統喊話而已人要趕快抓回來檢警調要趕快動員對不對第一這個錢有多少大家看他虧空了台元11億喔更重要的"},{"start":3773.883,"end":3794.932,"text":"請部長跟院長要注意這個事情他除了收賄七情滿意外右下角這個大家看一下他去簽了一堆不平等的條約喔未來我們政府啊台元還要負擔多少的這個賠償最少超過140億今天我們在談要補貼1000億因為台元利能出狀況可能被廠商要求償140億為什麼140億這麼多因為他沒有經過董事會的"},{"start":3802.895,"end":3825.667,"text":"同意他自己亂簽這簽了一個非常不平等的他說你工程費付了多少我給你十倍的這個賠償現在台泥在我自己的魚店那個地方你本來是魚店共生阿現在魚死掉了店沒有生喔還放會在那邊喔現在人家球場多少14億工程費工程款的十倍"},{"start":3827.386,"end":3842.157,"text":"所以院長趕快去追這個人趕快抓回來該有的這個錢趕快去補回來虧損趕快補回來第二個可能面臨虧損的問題趕快去解決好不好好的三件事情跟我們報告第一個我希望陳啟毓能盡快的到案敢作敢當"},{"start":3842.897,"end":3870.987,"text":"面對司法面對國人財不枉費國人過去對他也是相當多的支持應該要敢做敢當面對司法我們覺得非常痛心所以除了總統喊話你也喊話嘛那我們上次在院會我就說過了第二個關於綠能犯罪的事情我們全面已經在追查了我已經幾次要求法務部台高檢等等全力在追查我們也設定了時程跟目標第三個關於台研綠能所"},{"start":3872.267,"end":3900.614,"text":"未來的這些狀況我們希望透過法律能夠救濟盡量減少各種的損失這也是維護台鹽綠能台鹽公司的一個主要的要做法也要向國人有所交代所以我想這案子我已經以數次要求法務部能夠儘快的找到當事人來進行說明院長我們要連綠風琴我們要努力共同努力那現在不是只有台鹽綠能我再給你看一個這是上禮拜那個案子剛剛才起訴的"},{"start":3902.273,"end":3924.563,"text":"在中華的竹塘跟雲林的二輪你看他光是收了明代收了1861萬結果他賺了台電多少錢4億4千萬就是巨額的這個收入我們再看下一個案子立揚立揚立揚就是台南的八十八槍"},{"start":3925.993,"end":3951.121,"text":"起訴書裡面檢察官直接跟你講要從台、要從台電不法走德要賺多少?91億另外右邊這個聯合再生他就套利了2.63會很恐怖的講的都是越來越輕對不對?我們現在談1000億結果你看這個四、五個案子每個都是幾億幾億這樣在搬錢院長我提醒你最後一個圖來我們看一下這個是"},{"start":3956.639,"end":3970.213,"text":"蔡英文總統連任的時候你看旁邊站的人這叫全國力量產業貨源會是不是已經變成一個黑金碧鞍的貨源大會你看左邊陳起玉中間這個人把力量集團的股省費"},{"start":3971.82,"end":3999.238,"text":"就是88槍的在這邊聯合再生我剛講的這個聯合再生這個案子這個監察已經糾正了這個案子監察已經糾正了在右邊太陽集團的蔡總統他們兄弟這再次台言令人也是有角色的所以從總統一直到院長到部長都是相當嚴辦對不對我們來這張圖每個人不要因為他去支持了誰做了後援會要查辦到底而且盡快好不好當然"},{"start":4001.284,"end":4012.754,"text":"報告委員我想在院長的這個處理之下事實上我們經濟部跟法務部還有農業部我們都現在在建立一個平台"},{"start":4013.553,"end":4035.361,"text":"防止這些弊病防止這些蟑螂可以再次肆虐光電這個領域所以過去的剛才您所指責的這幾個部分都列為我們未來改進的一個參考我是肯定的經濟部最近提了三大措施包括要跟人民溝通"},{"start":4036.081,"end":4058.075,"text":"包括脫貧化這個我是肯定的不過正本清廉是什麼因為就裡面的利潤太多嘛所以它出現了一些利能這個蟑螂嘛所以第一個我是肯定可是我們等一下來談什麼要去釜底抽薪這個問題第二個更重要的既然要辦院長既然要辦人陳其宇人要趕快抓到第二個這些錢該追的我剛講的這四個案子就幾百億喔"},{"start":4059.458,"end":4076.449,"text":"該追的錢要趕快追出來包括可能會在球場前我們要擋住這幾個案子我們都會追回來三個原則第一個有爭議的地太小的地不要開發就不要開發第二個讓業者去面對這些地方的人士不合理公權力 權力介入"},{"start":4077.81,"end":4102.661,"text":"第三個農務人民的權利應該要適度的再提升保障農民民的利益讓他不會受地方人士這樣來左右我們設定三個原則 權力執行好 院長這個宣示很好可是一定要落實 收到要做到已經開始在做了那更重要的是什麼日本青年 你們想過為什麼那麼多人冒著生命危險要抓去關他為什麼這個弊案連環報就是因為裡面利潤太高嘛利潤太高的重點在哪裡 來我們看這個賺過電價嘛"},{"start":4106.431,"end":4119.547,"text":"短過電價你本來在風電這一塊你給了他利潤後來這個風電這一塊已經退場囉那剛才講的都是太陽能光電太陽能光電到現在這個短過電價都還沒有還沒有退場我跟大家講一下這個短過電價為什麼出問題第一個"},{"start":4122.117,"end":4149.313,"text":"簽的時候大家協調的時候用協調的所以價格本來就高嘛第二個一邊20年嘛所以一堆綠色蟑螂就跑進去啊黑道啊什麼民代全部都跑進去啊我們看一下事實上各國沒有錯各國在推再生能源的時候都是用短過制度可是短過制度一段時間市場成熟完之後他就會退場了嘛我剛剛講了我們的風電也退場了太陽能到現在沒退場了看一下德國的案子德國是2000年實施再生能源法一旦開始用短過制度"},{"start":4150.053,"end":4166.42,"text":"後來2017年它就變成競標了日本是2012年後來2017年也變成是競標了所以今天本席明確的要求好好趕快檢討短過制度它有幾個好處喔第一個避免過高的這個利益"},{"start":4167.981,"end":4180.244,"text":"他不會導致這個歷練這個蟑螂橫行必斷重生這是第一個好處第二個他會落實真正的公開透明因為公開競標嘛對不對所以就是一個公平競爭第三個也很重要我們要談一千億"},{"start":4181.397,"end":4208.137,"text":"你只要整過制度特別是光電這一塊改成競標台電的虧損就會降下來你會買到合格的價格這已經在朝這個方向進行往這個方向嘛院長今天跟部長你們很明確跟我講你們往這個方向落日的方向在走多久以內可以達成落日因為你風電已經落日了嘛那你光電造成這麼多弊案又導致台電的虧損趕快給一個時間點好不好例如說可能兩個禮拜好不好兩個禮拜提出什麼時候落日可以嗎"},{"start":4208.777,"end":4216.824,"text":"我們回部裡面的討論然後儘快給委員一個答案要展現你們的魄力"},{"start":4218.309,"end":4243.638,"text":"這個我剛跟你講德國的案例日本的案例啊我們豐電你有這樣的案例啊快一點好不好委員現在因為有的已經在進行中的那有的還沒有進行所以我們還是要跟大家來討論怎麼樣很順利的能夠有兩個禮拜給我你們的檢討報告那檢討報告裡面有一個很重要你方向剛剛院長講的你是往要費落日條款這個方向去做嘛對不對時間點把它訂出來越快越好"},{"start":4244.278,"end":4271.333,"text":"好不好就像是你一邊在查閉的時候你要正本清點就知道他利潤在什麼地方嘛你把它廢掉那些綠色蟑螂就清掉啦就進不來了啦好不好報告委員在契約當中的我們要合法的進行但是不能再出現任何的狀況那麼有新的發展一定朝未來是降低成本的方式來進行因為這個也是等供電價當初設計以及大家共同的一個原則將來一定往更合理的電價計算成本這個方向去走"},{"start":4272.514,"end":4295.609,"text":"還有一個案子也非常重要就是最近我們要成立一個賣電的平台買電跟賣電的這個平台嘛中華電信、中油、中鋼、高鐵要去帶頭老實講這個機制我是不反對的因為這會幫助我們綠能這個發展可是它出了一個很大的問題為什麼弄到現在綠能會賣不出去"},{"start":4296.82,"end":4310.416,"text":"因為他移動要賣六塊阿所以不只台積電 欸 聽我講部長不是啦 台積電沒要買嘛 民間不買嘛現在弄到是銀行連帶都不敢去連帶了 對不對那成立這個就是要幫這些風電商讓他可以繼續下去嘛"},{"start":4312.159,"end":4322.484,"text":"會不會解套不是不是我們是幫助小這個要買綠電比較小的公司因為他們大的齁要簽20年啦你剛才在說的簽20年但是喔我們要幫助這個稅沒必要簽這麼久啦要多少買多少齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁"},{"start":4341.084,"end":4349.47,"text":"你叫這家國營企業買都是上市的百萬的股民都在賣你現在做兩個事情第一個現在最嚴重的是百萬股民認為說你去買你買的電價太貴現在一度就是六塊那裡面你又訂了一個條約你看一下你這些股東到時候電賣不出來"},{"start":4368.94,"end":4390.908,"text":"你股東還要去買啊不會不會不會那你刪掉那個股東本身就是買綠電的這個客戶他本身就是買綠電的客戶那只是我們知道的啊這個條文裡面講到合資股東的義務為了售電公司如果到時候沒有人買啦那都沒人買啦那天賣錢我一堆買六塊錢對不對股東有義務依照持股比例回過欸"},{"start":4398.504,"end":4425.982,"text":"你賣賣出又自己賣公營事業就等於是要把這個貴的綠電吃掉了嘛所以現在百萬的股東現在有意見了我明確要求 本人我們說的是一樣的你把這一條刪掉好不好 沒問題就是不能賣出去 賣不出去叫我們的中華電信叫中央去買喔 這個今天有很明確的答案喔好不好 保證喔 這很明確喔那以後買電影一直講說怎麼樣才不會買太貴如果將來他們買不到可能會找委員"},{"start":4429.204,"end":4453.067,"text":"他如果是便宜的店就買得到啦不要買太貴了啦太貴就是我們損失我們股東跟人民我的立場就是不會讓他買到貴的店有這麼時間我再問一個很重要的上個月我們在談這個污染的問題10月22號啊從晚上到凌晨太陽出來之前我們的用火力發電用費呼吸啊"},{"start":4456.467,"end":4480.087,"text":"99.8%幾乎沒有其他再生能源了因為太陽沒有出來嘛對不對風又停了嘛現在更嚴重了你知道嗎這個月的14號跟15號我們的污染啊比去年同一個時間污染嚴重了一倍這個圖左邊這是14號右邊是15號你看紅通通的紅通通的一片這個是環境部的資料啊那為什麼會這麼嚴重我給大家看兩個非常嚴重的圖來大家看一下"},{"start":4484.598,"end":4509.071,"text":"這張是14號跟15號燃煤發電你說以後不燒煤了你看14號、15號我們的燃煤是火力全開的更嚴重的 看好一張連最髒的燃油好 謝謝"},{"start":4520.372,"end":4521.953,"text":"謝謝張啟凱委員時間已到謝謝張啟凱委員的諮詢謝謝左院長、經濟部、郭部長備選"},{"start":4547.506,"end":4573.147,"text":"我們接下來請登記第三號洪森翰委員質詢好謝謝那個韓院長那我想請卓院長跟先請這個財政部的莊部長麻煩請卓院長財政部部長備詢"},{"start":4583.69,"end":4611.067,"text":"黃委員好這個會期我們非常非常重要的四大預算當然當然現在能夠進行到這個台電的追加減的預算這當然是最後一個那其實大家都很辛苦第一個事情是我們因為時間不多我想直接的先來就針對我們今天的問題來做討論我想先問一下莊部長部長"},{"start":4613.318,"end":4627.001,"text":"剛剛在院長跟財務部的報告裡面都有講到我們這一筆最佳檢的預算其實用到的其實是稅基剩餘那我想請問一下我們這幾年的稅基剩餘的狀況究竟是如何重點是這個稅基剩餘是來自於什麼地方"},{"start":4628.552,"end":4653.321,"text":"跟委員報告我們的稅基剩餘主要在於我們的稅路稅路好那稅路好的時候第一個我們的做法就是為什麼稅路會好稅路好第一個就是我們的稅收好稅客收入好那我們的稅客收入好是因為經濟成長的好那經濟成長好所以我們的稅路是會增加我們經濟成長好我們會表現在我們的盈利事業所得稅"},{"start":4654.541,"end":4674.826,"text":"特別哪幾個產業好目前就你的資料特別幾個產業就我們來說因為譬如說我們是一個出口導向的國家所以我們這幾年的出口主要在於AI就是通訊跟電子產品那這個部分目前來說是世界上都需要的而且我們在不管是在產能也好還有製程也好都具有優勢所以這個部分"},{"start":4675.886,"end":4703.352,"text":"所以讓我帶來我們國家很好的一個收益所以部長我確認一下等於是說我們這幾年的稅基剩餘主要為什麼有這麼大的量主要是來自於我們的出口產業然後尤其是科技產業他們賺的錢多所以繳的稅多所以產生的稅基剩餘我這樣理解沒有錯嘛對不對是沒有錯是那再加上我們的股市動能也好所以比如說今年的113年我們的證交稅的收入也是不錯的是"},{"start":4704.158,"end":4723.997,"text":"好那我接下來想請我再問院長院長這個我們這一筆要給台電1000億元的這個追加的預算為什麼要進行這樣子的補貼主要的具體的原因可不可以再請院長再跟我們說明一下好報告委員剛剛在報告當中提到因為燃料的價格"},{"start":4725.097,"end":4739.696,"text":"波動造成巨大的支出同時我們雖然調整了電價但對民生電價我們一樣採取補貼的政策所以這當中台電還是會出現一些政策性的目標那麼現在如果這樣的"},{"start":4740.497,"end":4765.014,"text":"這個最佳預算在這一次再進行補貼之後那經濟部國務部長說過我們未來期待臺電的財務能夠更健全那麼他有一些補貼的政策我們現在已經移到其他的部會目的是事業主管機關去了那相行幾下他就會比較像一個正常營運的公司一樣不必負擔那麼多的國家補貼政策那對一個公司來講對他財政負擔絕對是好的"},{"start":4765.489,"end":4788.634,"text":"因為我們在談到補貼的時候通常一定都會來源可能是來自於這個成本跟這個電價支出上面的落差啦就是這個發電的成本這中間的落差我們這次的落差就剛剛我聽到院長在前面的報告的時候主要是來自於服務業跟住宅等民生用電是這樣嗎"},{"start":4789.605,"end":4814.205,"text":"我們這次的調整對於住宅、小商店我們沒有動我們還是維持動漲的、緩漲的程度因為動漲所以它低於成本所以這一段落差希望用這次的補貼距離發電的成本大概一塊多3.94到2.7左右大概一塊多是需要用補貼的政策的所以這個部分需要台電用其他的方式進行它的財務結構的改變"},{"start":4815.714,"end":4835.494,"text":"院長我如果這樣聽下來我其實覺得我大概聽出一個邏輯等於說我們現在政府用我們在出口產業科技業多賺的錢不要講多賺的錢因為我們的經貿政策做對了因為我們的外交政策做對了所以讓大家可以有比較好的收入比較好的盈餘"},{"start":4836.415,"end":4851.121,"text":"這個比較好盈餘那多繳了一些稅用這個多繳的稅 稅計剩餘來幫助我們在民生用電上面的支出所以其實我們是政府扮演一個總體在利潤"},{"start":4851.941,"end":4874.377,"text":"跟負擔的總體的調度讓賺錢的產業賺錢的企業來去協助我們的民生用電降低它的負擔其實我覺得這個邏輯我們應該要讓社會知道得更清楚因為這關乎到我下面要問的一個問題如果這一筆一千億的追加預算沒有通過可能會有什麼影響"},{"start":4875.424,"end":4890.089,"text":"就是台電的財務狀況沒有辦法得到適度的改善雖然我們這次調整當中我們採用了反應成本的原則所以這些用戶大電都幾乎是在發電成本的"},{"start":4890.749,"end":4914.59,"text":"所以他已經不需要任何的補貼了在現在來看但是民生用電仍然需要那如果沒有追加預算台電還必須用他自己公司內部的錢拿來做這些補貼的政策那對他未來財政健全的路會更遙遠那部長曾經提過未來幾年要讓台電財務正常化也健全那這個應該是一個必經的步驟我請大院支持"},{"start":4914.83,"end":4927.821,"text":"因為其實我可以講我甚至更擔心的事情是當台電的財務狀況不健全的時候我們預計接下來會有很多比方說為了供電穩定做了電網的投資包括我們很多發電設備的投資"},{"start":4929.765,"end":4950.166,"text":"會不會因為台電的這個財務狀況不健全甚至對外這些投資就會趨於保守原本可以兩年三年可以投資完處理完的問題變成四年五年六年那這個不是只是台電的財務健不健全的問題甚至會影響接下來的供電政策或能源政策這是我擔心的事情"},{"start":4950.686,"end":4979.986,"text":"所以布朗我覺得我們需要讓大家知道台電的財務健全有這個非常非常重要的積極的作用而不是只是一家公司虧不虧損的問題只是董事長要去擔心的問題不是這個問題它連帶的影響到接下來能源政策重要的執行跟穩定性的問題布朗我們要讓大家知道這件事情是的報告委員我們現在比較擔心的就是說如果得不到這一千億的這個補助那麼財務的狀況非常的不好那這個財務狀況不好的話在銀行的壽信這個等級就會下降"},{"start":4980.746,"end":4995.01,"text":"那對於我們第一個我們可能付的這個利息錢利息可能會增加那麼對於剛才您所指導的這個先期的這個投資可能就會降可能電網可能發電的設施儲能等等等都連帶的影響因為財務不好"},{"start":4997.471,"end":5022.251,"text":"所以我們希望說能夠早一點改善他的財務狀況至於經營的部分就像剛才院長所指示的經營的部分我們會來努力會從經營的努力裡面盡量不是盡量就經營的部分我們希望是能夠有好的表現但是在財務的部分財務不是我們經營的部分所以我們希望得到大院的支持"},{"start":5023.171,"end":5051.1,"text":"讓能夠改善台電的財務狀況這個一來我們可以降低這個利息的支出第二個我們可以得到世界這些融資公司的這些壽信的這個程度的提升我想這個是比較重要的部分好 部長我想請財務部長可以先回去接下來想要請教的問題喔郭部長請繼續留在台上我想請問院長跟郭部長郭部長你們知不知道因為也跟台電有關"},{"start":5052.844,"end":5067.854,"text":"你們知不知道台電齊下的運輸船隻他們使用的他們用的聘僱的船員有多少是台灣籍有多少是中國籍有多少是外國籍"},{"start":5069.498,"end":5080.435,"text":"我們應該是現在因為少子化所以台籍的確實是比較少一點那我們大部分都是用外籍的比較多部長我給你看這個數字齁這個下一張齁"},{"start":5083.809,"end":5113.16,"text":"其實我把台電跟中油的相關的數字都調出來了就目前為止台電跟中油下面大部分都還是台灣船級中油用了比較多外國船級那台電用了蠻少的這個外國船級可是台電跟中油的中國級的船員都是零就沒有用中國級的船員你覺得為什麼台電跟中油我們這兩家國營事業優先的使用外國級沒有優先用中國級船員部長"},{"start":5115.441,"end":5144.799,"text":"我們應該在這部分有一些管理吧有一些管理對不對那我其實為什麼今天問這個問題是因為其實我前兩個禮拜我也問了這個我們的國安局的蔡明彥局長因為很多人來跟我們關心這個問題他們在問我一個問題他們問說請問如果台海真的發生緊張的時候如果船上是中國籍的船員那這個中國籍的船員在台海緊張的時候他是聽中國政府的還是聽我們台灣"},{"start":5146.067,"end":5166.845,"text":"韓公司的部長你覺得謝謝委員的指正您剛才所指導的這部分確實是這樣我們也擔心把我們的frequency能夠被漏出去了走漏出去了我想這些實際操作的訊息萬一能被走漏出去我想對我們"},{"start":5168.322,"end":5194.449,"text":"不立的是所以當時這個國安局的蔡局長其實也回答我確實這是這是會有國安上面的隱患的確實到時候他到底聽誰的這真的沒有人有把握很有可能他是為中國政府來服務的好可是我接下來就要問下面的一個問題了部長我要問我們台電跟中油可以做到盡量都沒有用到中國級船員那為什麼一樣是我們的國營事業的中鋼運通"},{"start":5196.431,"end":5214.624,"text":"中央運通的數字是這樣子喔部長台灣籍的船員確實比較多但他也用了蠻大比例的中國籍船員喔但是他的外國籍船員用的比較少為什麼同樣都是國營事業為什麼中央運通做了不一樣的選擇部長"},{"start":5216.874,"end":5244.608,"text":"那個中鋼是這個經濟部投資的公司他不是我們直接百分之百Own的公司所以我想他的他很多的形式是要透過他的這個董事會決定但是我們經濟部當然是有影響他的影響力嘛這我們當然都知道嘛他當然不像台電跟中油這麼直接可是他當然是我們經濟部當然是有影響他的很充足的影響力嘛"},{"start":5246.202,"end":5274.181,"text":"這邊我想我們來跟這個中鋼來討論那對 因為這裡面有工會在他們的工會的要求但是工會沒有主張要用中國籍船員啊工會是希望能夠多用台灣籍的船員啊我就一直說為什麼在中鋼運通裡面你看到他用了這麼大比例的中國籍船員台電跟中國都可以不用對不對可是為什麼中鋼運通用這是中鋼運通對於我們國安的理解比較淺薄嗎是不是因為這個原因"},{"start":5274.821,"end":5289.895,"text":"是 我想這一部分我們回去馬上來進行討論然後能夠在短期裡面就可以得到改善但是因為這個用人的部分其實是比較複雜現在其實供應的比較少"},{"start":5290.535,"end":5318.206,"text":"那我們要求他們要趕快地力氣改善院長我院長這邊我想說的事情當然現在關於中央運動的事情當然有所謂罷工但我今天沒有要談罷工沒有要談勞動方面的事情我主要談的事情是國安上面的事情就這個數字來說其實大家可以看得到就算我們可能去說因為台灣籍的船員現在就算我們退一萬步來說台灣籍的船員比較難找就算我們這樣想好了"},{"start":5319.226,"end":5341.352,"text":"但是很明顯的啊他也是優先用中國籍的船員而不是優先去選擇外國籍的船員啊台電跟中郵也許他們也是遇到台灣籍的船員不好找假定是這個狀況但他也是優先的找外國籍的船員找國安疑慮比較小的船員啊是 這個我們來要求"},{"start":5342.176,"end":5367.217,"text":"好不好所以布朗跟院長我也希望我想請教一下院長對這件事情的看法我就沒有在談勞動的問題勞動合約的問題談國安的問題院長你的看法是什麼首先我們當然希望台海兩岸之間都是和平共處和平共榮大家用經濟的發展穩定內部社會的安定來做共同的努力那但是"},{"start":5368.384,"end":5397.844,"text":"確實在表格上看起來我們有外籍的船員跟中國籍的船員而且中國籍的船員數量也不算少我是建議部長應該跟中鋼甚至跟中鋼運通表示平時對外籍或中國籍的船員要做適當的約束如果有事情的時候要強力的管理跟管制的機制這樣才能夠保障該公司的營運也保障我們國家的安全"},{"start":5398.324,"end":5423.511,"text":"院長我自己是覺得齁因為像中央運通或這樣的公司它其實就是直接國營事業公司其實我是真的想不到我們的國營事業的公司為什麼非得要用中國籍的船員我其實想不到剛剛是現狀來做管理對這是現狀那麼未來我想部長應該統籌的去規劃一下來做一些檢討往比較更合理安全而且有效率的方式去做"},{"start":5423.939,"end":5440.808,"text":"部長我這邊要說的是我沒有要求說明天或明年就要讓所有中國籍船員都換掉不是這個意思我是在想我昨天有一個提議部長可不可以兩個月的時間我們不管是經濟部國運會或者是中央運通有一個"},{"start":5441.943,"end":5464.33,"text":"逐步降低中國籍船員減少中國籍船員的騎乘回去以後立刻檢討把這個騎乘給定出來我可以給兩個月的時間謝謝委員好不好那把它具體規劃出來因為我知道這不是一下子就隨便就可以換掉的事我都清楚可是至少有一個餘裕的時間那不要再讓有國安隱患"},{"start":5464.85,"end":5490.736,"text":"的狀況出現在我們的國營事業上畢竟這些國營事業他進出口都是運送很重要的物資我們都知道這是非常非常重要的基礎的物資我們沒有什麼我想不到其他理由也許我們私人的企業民營的企業他會成本的考慮可是我想不到任何的理由為什麼我們的國營企業非得要用中國籍的船員而不是優先用本土台灣籍或者是外國籍的船員這部分麻煩部長好不好"},{"start":5493.083,"end":5510.772,"text":"好 謝謝洪森翰委員質詢謝謝卓院長經濟部長的備詢 謝謝接下來請登記第4位林思明委員質詢好 謝謝院長我們請那個卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":5523.914,"end":5548.796,"text":"院長我想在行政院其實是在今年5月2號那個陳建仁院長的時期就通過主技術所編劇的這個113年度這一次的總預算的追加案當然就是要補助台電1000億那其實台電在過去兩年我們看到政府已經補助了4000億"},{"start":5551.857,"end":5580.257,"text":"但是我們仍然看到截至112年抵止臺電仍然累計的虧損高達3826億要這個代彌補所以我第一個問題來請教院長在我們這一次113年度我們追加了1000億以後臺電在今年度有沒有去這個做一個統計大概我們的虧損還有多少"},{"start":5582.437,"end":5609.667,"text":"臺電會有多少虧損現在這1000億補進去之後臺電到今年大概預計的虧損是多少首先報告是臺電現在的虧損達到4000億左右但是今年度我們有過兩次的電價的調整尤其第二次10月份的這一次調的幅度很感謝這個產業界也非常的支持那調的幅度會比較大"},{"start":5610.527,"end":5638.735,"text":"相較之下他的當然是會改善一些但是應該還沒有產生大的變長我請教您的是說如果我們把1000億今年因為追加1000億這1000億如果讓你通過立法院如果讓你通過台電今年的累計虧損今年度不包含我們講到112年底的3826億今年大概虧損累計虧損會多少就今年這個年度我們到"},{"start":5641.62,"end":5650.569,"text":"剛說累積有達到4千億那麼再補1千億是明年度如果追加1千億的話追加這1千億的話我們到113年底113年底應該還會虧損3千多億"},{"start":5655.05,"end":5678.817,"text":"我現在學長你可能沒聽懂我的意思我說112年底累積虧損請部長來回答112年112年底累積虧損已經達到3826億囉那如果說今年我們台電這個以今年來看因為這個你要追加預算1000億嘛你為什麼要追加1000億一定有你的理由也就是說台電今年還是在持續虧損嘛"},{"start":5680.157,"end":5680.997,"text":"今年補1000億改善我的財務狀況"},{"start":5706.367,"end":5712.468,"text":"我們大概有補助的話大概會產生434億的盈餘還是會虧損566億如果明年2025年有補助的話我們會有556億的盈餘大概會虧損444億"},{"start":5733.02,"end":5743.051,"text":"院長跟部長依據我們立法院預算中心的推估這個都是有憑有據的我們這1000億預計台電在今年大概會有1887億的虧損就今年喔"},{"start":5751.638,"end":5772.131,"text":"1887億的虧損然後你今年補助1000億之後大概會減縮到剩93億的虧損所以中間有一個差距大概794億我們是依據我們的預算中心他的一個計算我想我們大家可能引述的這個數據不一樣我這邊的數據是如果有1000億這個1000億其實是在補上一次的"},{"start":5777.894,"end":5798.424,"text":"就是我們過去兩三年因為補貼民生那雖然有調降調價錢但是還是補貼民生為主所以這個一千億主要是在改善我的財務狀況但是我的經營的狀況就是跟這個一千億是沒有正相關我現在跟您雞同鴨講其實我看到的數據"},{"start":5799.625,"end":5816.654,"text":"我們立法就是立法院的統計啊就這對於這一次你們為什麼要編補一千億我們的立法院的一個預算中心他觀察到就是說台電今年113年度即便這一千億補進去之後我們還有93億的虧損"},{"start":5819.725,"end":5838.581,"text":"當然它累計是說今年大概會預計是有1887億這樣的虧損所以你要去補那為什麼你補助1000億我告訴你理由啦原因啦是因為說我們用編列因為這個今年啊遇到電價你有調漲"},{"start":5839.682,"end":5860.171,"text":"以及今年的燃料價格下降跟111年跟112年來比較的話我們的燃料成本是下降的所以其中794億是因為你調漲電價以及我們的國際燃料的成本它下降"},{"start":5861.28,"end":5883.942,"text":"是這樣的原因讓台電在今年的1800多億的虧損用1000億補進去之後未來大概預估93億而已就大概不會造成台電那麼大的虧損我直接跟你講答案但是我還是想請教政府除了用預算來編補台電以外如何彌補"},{"start":5885.904,"end":5903.32,"text":"累積到112年底這3826億的一個虧損大原則兩個一個就是我們未來在採購上我們會跟希望台電能夠更謹慎另外他的資金調度也能夠靈活運用再讓他前提底下請部長來討論"},{"start":5905.446,"end":5909.629,"text":"這兩年你要怎麼做尤其今年要補助1000億又追加預算1000億明年又要用公務預算來撥補他1000億總共2000億但是之前已經累計3826億這樣的一個虧損已經存在那邊囉"},{"start":5924.257,"end":5945.135,"text":"我直接問你為什麼過去會累計將近4000億的虧損透過更精準的營運不增加電費收入但是因為電費的需求有增加所以我們希望在成本的控制上面能夠控制得更精準"},{"start":5945.695,"end":5955.385,"text":"第二透過我們的產購可以買到更便宜的材料我知道您現在講的都是指未來台電要怎麼做有這1000億明年1000億明年2000億之後你如何讓台電的營運能夠"},{"start":5962.392,"end":5981.742,"text":"不虧損你現在都是在講這件事情剛才您回答婚委員講說我們就減少利息支出那我們會更應當的受信融資信用會好有這1000億的撥補之後你都在講今年跟明年的事你保證明年你不會虧損嗎明年即便1000億補進去你認為不會虧損嗎"},{"start":5984.323,"end":6002.367,"text":"有信心不會虧損嗎剛才跟委員報告明年還是會虧損明年還是會虧損所以你才要編供預算一千億進去如果沒有補充他可能虧損更大我現在的問題是問您說在111年跟112年這兩年台電大量的虧損大額的虧損 巨大的虧損總計達3826億這個數據難道您不知道嗎"},{"start":6009.428,"end":6037.822,"text":"要我來告訴你啊報告委員我當然是知道的我跟你說我怎麼改善這個虧損的事就是我們會去分析造成這個虧損的原因是什麼然後針對原因去做一些經營上面的改善是這一點我想部長你這部分當然我是肯定你當然你要做這件事情只是今天我們在講說台電會一直虧損的原因我們要去探討啊是啊當然你要用很多的政策"},{"start":6038.746,"end":6066.112,"text":"工具你要去解決台電虧損的原因但是我們現在看到的就整個能源政策如果不去做轉變持續我們用這個不管是這個發展綠能也好或者這個水利或者是地熱種種的能源政策整個把它盤點下來你有信心就是說我們透過撥補之後我們您能保證未來我們就不會再撥補嗎我們是"},{"start":6069.296,"end":6091.586,"text":"來努力啦齁那這個這個是不是要撥補我想這個是政策的問題所以說所以說部長或者院長所以台電今天會造成虧損的原因我覺得你們都沒有在積極的去做一個分析我們是有在分析你是想要去看用什麼什麼方式來讓台電不再繼續虧損但是為什麼造成虧損"},{"start":6093.922,"end":6120.241,"text":"這件事情我覺得行政院都沒有記憶在做相對的研究我們剛剛談的原因就是一方面是國際因素一方面就是我們支持弱勢穩定物價照顧民生你剛剛圖上這個這個就是它產生巨大虧損因為國際因素我告訴你111年跟112年為什麼會虧損就是因為疫情那時候國際原料大漲大漲所以造成台電的巨額虧損"},{"start":6122.253,"end":6135.78,"text":"這是一個非常重要的一個成因沒錯但這3826億的累積虧損要如何解決我到今天還沒有看到行政院有一個很這個詳細的一個因應的一個方式現在講的都是在講113年跟因應114年假設虧損"},{"start":6139.842,"end":6166.29,"text":"你要做的問題解決的方式我們已經進行了第一個就是今年10月份做比較幅度明顯的電價的調整但是這個也不是不合理喔因為用電大戶其實接近成本另外我們對一些補貼的政策回到目的世界主管機關去另外就是台電要做好它的內控剛剛我說的採煤採購的過程要更合理未來資金的調度院長我直接問院長跟部長"},{"start":6171.077,"end":6199.289,"text":"如果這2000億今年的1000億追加預算明年的1000億通過那是不是可以保證我們的電價絕對不會再漲價報告委員這個電價的部分我們還是有電價審議委員在審議啦但我們可以努力的部分就台電自己努力的部分把那個環境做得更好讓這個電價審議委員可以參考這個我們了解電價審議委員我們了解但是電價審議委員他的根據是什麼"},{"start":6200.202,"end":6203.503,"text":"根據我的經營狀況所以其實我問你這個問題就是說你能夠保證台電就不虧損然後電價審議委員會也不會調漲電價嘛電價就會動漲嘛"},{"start":6215.287,"end":6237.44,"text":"我們以前就是因為院長這個攸關說你這次要用補助的方式來撥補台電但是我們擔心的是台電會不會是個無底洞啊要靠政府補助能源結構不去改變台電是會每一年都要政府補助今年1000億明年1000億後年又要1000億會不會發生這種狀況"},{"start":6240.361,"end":6269.476,"text":"過去幾年我們用凍漲的時間蠻多的但是累積幾年下來它就必須有一些明顯的調幅就像現在一樣那未來當然我們不可預測國際因素但是電價審議委員會一樣還是會站在剛剛委員所說的那幾個就是照顧民生弱勢跟穩定物價的方向來調整我想對民生物價的衝擊我還是主張越低越少越好但是一方面也要鼓勵民眾大家真的要節約用電節約能源院長我告訴你"},{"start":6269.977,"end":6279.239,"text":"過去民進黨在演的時候對於最佳預算制定事情民進黨是非常反對的我們看一下影片好了"},{"start":6282.674,"end":6312.06,"text":"民生大事這個立委諸公們更是要顧好民進黨立院黨團今天就召開了記者會痛批101年度臺電擴充電廠的建設經費追加預算竟然比原來的預算多了1800億元再加上核四追加的500億投資案共2300多億等於全國國人一人要多增加負擔1萬塊錢立委痛批說臺電是少數人的金雞母但根本就是民眾的吸血鬼"},{"start":6314.141,"end":6335.837,"text":"拿出台電一項向投資追加預算案從核四、林口電廠到萬大電廠等這12項投資案裡面就增加了2300億換計畫說全國的人民一個人要負擔一萬塊台電是少數人的金雞母啊但是是台灣人民的吸血鬼如果我們能夠把這2300億的預算砍掉為人民來把關"},{"start":6342.281,"end":6365.369,"text":"臺灣人可以三年不用繳家裡的電費民進黨立院黨團算出臺電擴充電廠居然一共追加了2300多億預算今天的數字旅行再度痛批臺電所以這個是無底洞啊這個要增加多少不知道欸它就一個計畫說明而已所以如果這些都不要花"},{"start":6368.515,"end":6388.071,"text":"這個院長我想從這段影片我們很清楚看到所以台電如果一直追加預算用政府的預算來撥補的話正如陳庭飛委員講的這是個無底洞所以我在這邊衷心的建議重啟核能我想院長"},{"start":6389.278,"end":6411.034,"text":"對於重啟核能這件事您在上一次的院會裡面也做報告了你也認為重啟新的核能並非不可能我們看一下賴總統所成立的機構變遷委員會他的召集人廖俊智委員他在立法院報告的時候"},{"start":6413.154,"end":6427.445,"text":"她說台灣不能放棄任何減碳的機會包含去碳的燃氣、地熱、核電並且清楚回答國家的能源發展不排除核電部長你的看法怎樣 院長跟部長我當然是說"},{"start":6446.718,"end":6455.705,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝林思敏委員質詢謝謝卓院長、經濟部長的備詢報告委員會現在在議場二樓貴賓席的是來自大韓民國慶州市議會議員的訪問團熱情歡迎 安妞謝呦接下來請登記第5號賴瑞龍委員質詢"},{"start":6478.004,"end":6479.287,"text":"謝謝院長 請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":6490.592,"end":6518.076,"text":"拜委員好院長好我想院長那個台美關係相當重要那川普總統再次的當選那他當然人事的布局我們也在看不管是未來對台灣的政策都相當重要那首先我請教他所任用的這個準國安顧問瓦爾斯他說台灣晶片貿易地位重大未來因應共軍的威脅美會做好軍事力量的一個準備院長怎麼看待"},{"start":6519.298,"end":6543.507,"text":"是的 台美之間的關係日趨重要因為我們在民主產業鏈當中我們有非常重要的責任所以我們當然要謝謝拜登總統跟賀錦麗副總統在過去對台美關係的努力我們也寄望未來這個川普總統跟范氏副總統持續在這個民主共同理念架子底下不僅維持台美關係也維持整個印太和平穩定的發展"},{"start":6544.167,"end":6561.848,"text":"那因為我們在先進科技上面的製造是全世界現在不可或缺的我們更知道自己的責任之所在那美國新政府的相關的人士陸陸續續在公布當中那麼我們也看到其中好幾位過去對台灣都相當的關心"},{"start":6562.949,"end":6591.606,"text":"對國際的局勢都跟我們有相同的理念應該是對台灣也相當友善對在國際局勢上面跟我們有相同的理念所以我們想基於這樣的方式那個台美之間從各方面的合作一定要持續的加強尤其我們在對世界高科技產業這樣的一個責任上面我們應該要把台灣這個產業如何向世界去擴展我們的實力甚至我們要吸收更多的先進知識跟人才進來互相互補"},{"start":6592.726,"end":6609.394,"text":"這個是未來政府的重要工作國家安全顧問其實相當重要的一個職務啦那看到他的發言台灣的晶片跟貿易顯然他重視了台灣的晶片重視台灣的貿易那我也相信未來跟台灣他也會重視台灣的這些經濟跟貿易的這些成果"},{"start":6610.094,"end":6631.839,"text":"那另外看來他也有做好的一些準備他也看到了我看到他在上個月的雷根基金會的演講他講到了這個習近平他中國想要取代美國作為全球的領袖那他第一步是控制西藏第二下一步香港再來就是台灣那顯然他相當關切台灣問題院長怎麼看"},{"start":6634.11,"end":6649.337,"text":"要成為領袖要自然形成強摘的果實不會甜美用武力或是武力的威脅更不能得到世界共同的體認我們期待兩岸之間能夠和平共榮互相協助也可以但是"},{"start":6650.177,"end":6674.133,"text":"重要的是臺灣現在在世界產業當中這種生產的必須不能被破壞也就是臺灣的生產力、經濟力不能被破壞世界應該有這樣共同的體認讓我們更加自己進到保護臺灣國家安全的這個責任所以我們如果從這個方向來走的話我們跟世界就容易結合在一起我們可以跟中國政府講"},{"start":6675.053,"end":6702.551,"text":"對台灣只要大家心存善念我們期待開始善的循環不要這種惡言相向那這個地區穩定政策發展下來所有的產業發展下來絕對是讓全球的人類能夠往更文明科技進步所以看來瓦爾茲其實也是重視台灣問題而且重視台灣他會提到西藏香港跟台灣顯然他重視台灣也重視台灣的自由民主的成就也重視台灣的"},{"start":6703.411,"end":6714.962,"text":"金片跟台灣的貿易接下來部分我也想那這樣的話其實是不是過去大家很擔憂所謂的這個以美論的部分院長還有這樣的問題嗎我覺得這個是"},{"start":6718.8,"end":6744.765,"text":"某些人或是部分媒體透過不同的解讀造成出來的一個不存在的議題或是不應該被討論的議題台灣跟世界尤其跟我們民族理念相同國家不僅美國日本韓國很多這個南向的國家還有歐洲的國家我們都有相同的理念這個都互相信賴不是互相不能有互相的懷疑"},{"start":6745.245,"end":6772.221,"text":"那只有跟這個理念相對的那一方勢力才會用盡方法來造成內部的矛盾所以我們應該有這樣心理的所以這是刻意在分化台灣跟美國的關係嗎從應該去討論這樣的從這樣的認識 認命案瓦爾茲的認命案包括盧比歐的認命案看得出來其實這個以美論可以停止了啦不用再去想要去分化台灣跟美國關係我相信他們都看照了台灣的重要性也支持著台灣的 是吧是的"},{"start":6773.055,"end":6788.3,"text":"在我請教一下那剛剛院長提到兩岸之間那我也想問兩岸之間其實的溝通有很多受到很多停止特別是中方那邊停止院長支不支持海基海協持續的加強溝通讓兩岸之間的溝通盡快的恢復盡快的運作"},{"start":6789.801,"end":6819.181,"text":"依照現在的機制由兩會來進行所有的接觸跟會商我覺得這是一個現在機制所允許而且必須的所以我們特別邀請吳鳳山董事長擔任海基會的董事長就寄予厚望我們用他過去的國際觀念用他過去實質的政治上的了解以及過他充沛的人脈能夠去處理這樣的事情那我希望我也要求未來應該有具體的發展跟善意的對應"},{"start":6819.761,"end":6838.588,"text":"我看到羅文嘉秘書長也持續的喊話持續的溝通希望加強交流應該要從兩會間的交流要繼續來進行但是看來中國這邊是已讀不回院長怎麼樣會不會再呼籲希望中國能夠重視台灣的地處的感染之加速的來進行兩會的溝通"},{"start":6840.589,"end":6862.546,"text":"台灣本於我們國家主權的需求跟我們的立場我想我們願意做出更多的努力但是我們也希望在此同時在很多的國際場合上面也希望得到中國同樣平等的對待只有在雙方互惠平等的狀況底下要展開各種的方式的對話那才是有機會的"},{"start":6863.601,"end":6883.291,"text":"尊重、對等、互惠、尊嚴我想都是基本的原則那中國這邊應該要善待台灣這樣子才能夠讓兩岸有好的一些發展我們期待兩岸之間有更好的一些互動那再來我想要接著再問川普其實新的國務卿盧比歐其實也對台灣相對友善他在"},{"start":6884.631,"end":6909.116,"text":"這個今年的7月他也說了川普將會繼續支持台灣包括他過去提出了台灣關係強化法包括他促進台灣和平法案包括他也提案了台灣代表處的法案甚至於他在賴清德總統當時擔任副總統當選人的時候在4年前就跟他會晤過顯然他對台灣是友善的院長怎麼看"},{"start":6909.756,"end":6926.656,"text":"是委員剛剛也提到現在美國新政府的人士有相當多的過去的老朋友跟好朋友這個是值得我們寄予厚望的那我也認為成為一個民主純熟的國家它的基本國策跟方向應該是有長遠的規劃"},{"start":6928.138,"end":6949.578,"text":"新的總統上來當然會有一些政策上的調整但是當作民族夥伴國家共同的大家站在一起的大家庭的召集這樣的力量對美國來講現在他還是有舉足輕重的角色那台灣在印太地區我們也有我們舉足輕重的角色雖然國家大小不同"},{"start":6950.419,"end":6963.769,"text":"國家的實力也不一樣但是就世界整個地緣政治的布局來看每一個重點都必須要有強而有力的支柱台灣就是這個重點的支柱我們對自己充滿信心我們對國際社會也願意負起責任"},{"start":6964.785,"end":6981.246,"text":"盧比歐這個總國務卿盧比歐他在參議員的這個任內他的所作的言行看來都對台灣是友善的那我們相信政治人物其實言行多數是一致的他當然職位有些不同但是他的心理跟他的言行多數上是會是一致的"},{"start":6982.547,"end":7002.299,"text":"他在四年前都當時的時候有很大的壓力要跟賴清德副總統見面準副總統當選見面這是壓力很大的但是他願意站出來顯然他對台灣是有一定的支持度院長認同這樣的看法嗎我們相信這個未來的新國務卿我們在美國的台僑台商"},{"start":7003.243,"end":7016.324,"text":"也很多跟他有保持相當好的密切的關係與此之間的互動我想基於國際的現實我們不為難太多的強要的為難但是我們相信只要我們共同的理念相同"},{"start":7018.212,"end":7040.885,"text":"過去這個未來新的國務卿在國會裡面也經常有非常言論對台灣相當的支持我想他會貫徹這樣的理念那在過程當中我們需要提供協助或是我們需要做特別的了解的時候我想政府都會積極扮演這樣的角色保持跟個人或是跟整個團隊未來好的互作"},{"start":7041.465,"end":7070.214,"text":"所以從這兩個重要的人士的任命來看未來啦應該可預期抗中友台這樣的路線大概還是會持續啦院長認不認同這樣的看法政府應該從各方面做更多的努力要做好各種準備啦做好各種準備最好最壞的準備我們都要做對從政治上的互相的支持以及經濟上共同的合作在各種人民的這個交流上面我們已經持續在行政院內部我也要求鄭麗君"},{"start":7071.314,"end":7096.644,"text":"副院長能夠率領一個專案小組在近期內持續做未來因應的策略發展出來一個新的模式期盼行政專案小組盡快的把對接上讓川普整個團隊對台灣更友善更了解我們認為其實從兩個人士任命看來對台灣是個好事我們期盼後面有更多的推展出來在任命在政策上這個才是最關鍵的這個就會凸顯出川普"},{"start":7099.565,"end":7118.172,"text":"最後整體他的整體的政策那我們期盼臺美的關係更友好那以美論也希望就此停止不要再去操作臺灣跟美國的關係了是的好 謝謝在現在大家都很關心AI那全世界AI的資金大量湧入全世界高度關注幾乎現在是最夯的議題"},{"start":7118.772,"end":7148.192,"text":"包括但是我們台灣的AI的成熟度其實落後新加坡在亞洲地區落後新加坡落後日本落後韓國甚至落後澳洲其實雖然我們很強我們有幾位都非常的強不管是輝達AMD但是我們反倒是台灣的這塊我們還有很大的一個空間那我們看了一下現在整個整備的狀況台灣在全球的AI的整備度是第18名院長這樣的整備度你滿意嗎"},{"start":7149.613,"end":7169.254,"text":"跟我們的製造能力比較起來我們確實需要迎頭趕上所以我們希望未來我們整個產業的政策發展要軟硬兼施齊頭並進我前幾天參加一個一個典禮它的主題是AI plus Taiwan我說我們現在台灣是台灣plus AI我們必須把AI這個"},{"start":7171.348,"end":7193.803,"text":"對人民的生活對公部門的服務能夠全力的導入也對產業的升級能夠全力的來政府協助只有導入公部門讓人民感受到我們真的是一個科技大國也導入到產業讓我們的中小微企業也能跟著高科技產業一樣持續的發展出來進行數位轉型台灣才會真正成為一個有硬體有軟體的智慧科技國"},{"start":7194.881,"end":7217.973,"text":"我希望這件事情得到更多重視啦其實不管回答AMD啦不管是黃董或者是這個蘇媽其實都是來自於台灣都是在國際有相當大的影響力但是現在AI的部分的組織的部分就是政府的組織我也希望強化這樣的政府組織由因為它涉及到相當多的一些部會間的運作那我們看到其實在"},{"start":7219.393,"end":7246.048,"text":"韓國或其他國家都有在推動這件事情對AI的重視他組織以外他甚至成立了一個AI基金他們在2027年就是將他326台幣來做一個AI基金同時間他目標希望成為全球的前三大AI大國未來在2030年在全世界的這個佔比達到10%院長我們有沒有這樣的野心跟企圖心"},{"start":7247.128,"end":7273.34,"text":"當然我們就總統一直揭示的五大信賴產業其中當然就是以半導體跟AI為主我們這五大信賴產業我們編組了兩百二十幾億那其他還有科技的預算數量也是相當的多那我們希望這個是有效的運用而不是預算多寡而已那我們的國發會也好經濟部也好 國科會也好在各個地區的各個區域的包括說科學園區就強力的在"},{"start":7273.941,"end":7278.113,"text":"在做一些開發跟設備增加吸引外國的廠商來"},{"start":7279.724,"end":7305.172,"text":"那經濟部也持續要訓練更多的AI人才來進行AI的轉型院長考不考慮成立一個用基金的方式來全力的推展AI然後跨部會的方式來全力的推展台灣的AI台灣其實跟韓國其實都具有相當的競爭優勢那我們期盼半導體上面其實我們取得了相當的領先我們希望在未來AI的競爭上面不管跟美國跟日本跟韓國跟新加坡我們都能夠取得一個領先的地位"},{"start":7306.072,"end":7325.183,"text":"報告員AI的部分我們是這樣就是說我們認為人才要有充分的人才才有辦法把這個市場帶上來所以我們第一步先把人才培訓所以我們在4年內要培養20萬的AI人才那這裡面有10萬是國內的人才10萬是僑外生透過僑外生的機制"},{"start":7326.344,"end":7342.564,"text":"來訓練就有限院長就請你能夠支持跟重視這個你待會去思考啦這樣已經是跨部會在做在人力跟組織跟整個裁員的部分從費上我們會寬列組織是跨部會在進行只要能夠達到最大的效益我們應該全力以赴因為這會是台灣未來一個重要發展"},{"start":7342.884,"end":7368.016,"text":"那最後謝謝院長在上個禮拜到了小港機場那天抱歉我的選區但是我被動員在立法院無法過去辛苦辛苦的原來謝謝但是裡面有一個問題是他要到第1期要到2032年才能完成其實是太慢了現在大家都很急啦所以能不能請院長支持在2030年第1期完工到現在還有6年時間第1期完工然後同時航班航點能夠全力的支持高雄"},{"start":7368.416,"end":7395.531,"text":"不要讓高雄還要跑到桃園去飛出去世界各國甚至於票價還要多一萬塊錢到日本到韓國到東南亞要多一萬塊還要更加不便利工程的進行我請交通部能夠在安全的考量底下2030年的目標另外就是現在的小港機場它的容量它的服務量能夠擴增的情況底下我們讓更多更好的飛機能夠飛到那邊去現在是交通部盡力在做的事情這個拜託院長好不好"},{"start":7397.622,"end":7400.464,"text":"好 謝謝賴任農委員的質詢謝謝左院長及經濟部長的備詢現在我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":8036.67,"end":8059.191,"text":"報告委員會現在繼續開會接下來請王洪威委員質詢王洪威委員質詢王洪威委員質詢王洪威委員質詢王洪威委員質詢王洪威委員質詢王洪威委員質詢王洪威委員質詢王洪威委員質詢王洪威委員質詢王洪威委員質詢王洪威委員質詢王洪威委員質詢王洪威委員質詢王洪威委員質詢王洪威委員質詢王洪威委員質詢王洪威委員質詢王洪威委員質詢王洪威委員質詢王洪威委員質詢王洪"},{"start":8068.513,"end":8096.733,"text":"黃委員好院長好部長好我們現在要全力發展綠電對不對是多元發展綠能所以應該是上週的金週刊我不曉得院長跟部長有沒有看到談到綠電氣音那其實它的電子版在網路上瘋傳院長跟部長看過嗎內容我們知道這個內容院長跟部長知道"},{"start":8098.349,"end":8119.743,"text":"這裡面呢特別提到臺灣要發展綠電但是因為綠電蟑螂橫行審查礦日廢時所以我們風電光電的進度都大大落後把業者逼到玩不下去了所以呢在這個報導裡面看到沒有"},{"start":8123.274,"end":8145.335,"text":"《金週刊》訪問了好多家的這些綠電業者包含外商甚至提到千萬別去台灣裡面有一些這個粗黑的標題給院長和部長看一下一手好牌如今被你們的政府黑到和過於民粹的社會打成一團亂泥"},{"start":8147.281,"end":8171.667,"text":"拍一段不久前我看到臺灣官員說綠電不夠可以在別國設廠用海底電纜送回臺灣這件事已經在全世界成為笑柄這裡面的報導極為驚悚把過去我們非常多的大家提出來的建議還有大家聽到的一些事情他透過幾個綠電業者的訪問"},{"start":8174.264,"end":8180.668,"text":"我想金周刊大家也知道他的負責人叫做謝金河先生也算是民進黨政府的國師級的"},{"start":8183.041,"end":8208.201,"text":"這不是你們所說的統派媒體或者還是說你們說這個是在認知作戰所以這裡面還特別談到我們現在呢一堆的弊案甚至呢其實包含我們的檢察官也在做調查但是很多業者敢怒不敢言不敢檢舉所以如果我們的綠店爛成這樣子"},{"start":8211.392,"end":8234.04,"text":"請問一下院長你要不要辦怎麼辦好這件事情我們跟委員同樣的重視所以看到這個報導之後我們正式的就請檢調單位能夠去查查的結果告訴我們說這個案子是多年以前的案子當事人離開台灣而且"},{"start":8234.54,"end":8258.052,"text":"只有週刊他也不便透露當事人是誰但即使如此他裡面不是只有一家他裡面大概有六家還有本土還有台灣的上市公司還有台灣的上市公司但即使如此啊裡面提到的案情啊真的讓人覺得很驚悚啊是的沒錯只要來做綠能或者是想要跟地方政府想要打通關"},{"start":8259.153,"end":8271.406,"text":"她說不是啊你做不做得到是你有沒有給錢所以院長你在這邊能不能夠來做一個承諾如果今天台灣要發展綠能而會有這樣綠電蟑螂橫行"},{"start":8275,"end":8293.513,"text":"然後現在連政府他說連白道都不管了很多業者甚至呢員工還不敢從正門上班到從後門上班因為一些黑道天天在他們門口有這些的事件我們是不是要辦到底否則的話我們這些綠能怎麼推展的下去"},{"start":8294.437,"end":8321.602,"text":"是的沒錯這件事情雖然我們剛剛我說的那一段但是我們的檢調單位還是持續的已經成為一個專案在處理這個事情那因為是不是能夠盡快的來有一個明顯的答案出來我們當然還在努力不過針對這個部分我們八月份我們講的四個原則就是要過程要透明程序要簡化要設立一個檢舉的平台中央地方要合作"},{"start":8322.242,"end":8339.557,"text":"那之後我們要做的三樣我剛剛已經報告過了第一個有爭議的土地太小的土地不要開發不要造成人民的困擾第二個呢廠商的責任只在完成這些工作幫助我們政策不要給他太多的麻煩公權力進去最後一個農民的權利要照顧否則變成無政府狀態沒錯沒錯另外"},{"start":8344.321,"end":8373.263,"text":"在他的報導裏面也特別提到所謂的他三之十他說比如日本他們有個規定就是6週內搞定他們有很透明明確的也就是說對於很多的外商來講他到了台灣他沒有辦法處理黑道的問題他沒有辦法處理民代勒索的問題他也沒有辦法處理政府的效率不彰整個這樣的一個流程幾年也都不知道所以"},{"start":8373.903,"end":8390.924,"text":"我想國務長在這邊我們能不能未來把這些綠能的標準時程做一個可以以招公信的不然的話你不可能讓民眾去處理讓業者去處理這麼多應該政府處理的事情可不可以報告委員"},{"start":8392.927,"end":8407.783,"text":"這個部分我們現在正在進行中央跟地方政府能夠建立一個平台我們應該在年底之前就可以出爐年底之前把這個平台把這個流程這個SOP建立起來可不可以是 可以"},{"start":8408.403,"end":8431.208,"text":"所以今天我們討論是1000億追加預算我們在之前也談到為什麼國會要成立調查委員會為什麼要舉行聽證會等等我們當時就說光電閉案就是很主要的一個目標所以如果現在連民進黨國師他所主持的《金週刊》"},{"start":8432.268,"end":8460.727,"text":"都告訴你有這麼多的弊端請問那一千億我擔心的是你看起來一千億好像是在補貼台電我怎麼知道他不是去補貼這些綠能蟑螂呢所以我要請院長和部長把這些全部建立起來否則的話請問我我真的不會同意你們一千億我很擔心這一千億變成為蟑螂的這些資源我們不能為蟑螂"},{"start":8462.368,"end":8485.038,"text":"另外我想請問一下在上一次的我們能源的專案報告的時候牛許廷委員曾經要求院長就是和部長就是對於未來台電應該做出4年的財務規劃院長有同意對不對是的部長有沒有同意"},{"start":8486.277,"end":8513.096,"text":"我沒有直接收到這樣的訊息不過我認為這是應該的應該的好那部長你也是上市公司的老闆所謂四年的財務規劃應該要有包含哪些財務規劃對當然就是包括他的這個資產的盤點阿然後他有多少你想像中如果台電要做出財務規劃應該要有多少這個paper應該應該是厚厚一疊吧"},{"start":8514.271,"end":8540.238,"text":"大概三個表可以表現一個資產負債表一個現金表資產負債現金表三張表可以表現一下公司這個是會計上面的原則好 那我就給你看一下這個是昨天牛許廷委員跟我說他收到了台電的財務規劃表來看看什麼表 什麼表都沒有什麼現金表 什麼通都沒有"},{"start":8541.908,"end":8561.404,"text":"兩張A4的紙還沒寫完大概一千字算起來不到一千字因為當時牛許廷委員就說你們要追加預算你們明年還要編列撥補的預算所以他會看到比較長期一點的台電的財務規劃結果昨天他收到了是收到這樣子"},{"start":8562.93,"end":8580.912,"text":"我們叫做我們助理說這是一字千金阿我說哪裡一字千金一字值一億阿對不對我們公司今年就要追加一億阿一千億阿不到一千字給我要求要一千億阿部長如果你是董事長"},{"start":8581.753,"end":8609.347,"text":"你的員工給你這個報告你是不是就啪一下丟出去啊重做啊公務機構跟這個一般的在我們外面的公司確實是靠三張表在表達一個公司的方法台電不是公司嗎我不知道這個公務上面應該是怎麼樣的抱歉這部分我沒有那麼熟悉不過您剛所質詢的這一個所以呢所垂詢的這部分呢我們回去會準備資產負債表現金流量表跟損益表"},{"start":8610.376,"end":8623.35,"text":"對嘛起碼所謂的財務規劃齁你自己也是上市公司老闆台電可以這樣唬人嗎這一千億喔怎麼給我想問怎麼給喔實在是很離譜的事情啊另外我要請教部長啊"},{"start":8628.308,"end":8654.975,"text":"不想你之前說因為本來方堅說在美國總統大選之後川普會要求台積電把兩奈米的製程搬到台積電你當時怎麼說我認為這個事情我們台灣當然有N-1的規定也就是說最新的製程必須在台灣已經完備了以後才可以往外走"},{"start":8655.814,"end":8682.224,"text":"那你現在態度變了嗎這個也是合理這個也是合理的啦也就是說我到美國去台積電到美國是百分之百的公司所以他去那邊不是要去虧錢的他去那邊能讓還是要賺錢所以他如果沒有一個很完備可以賺錢的模式他出去是不可能的好 那所以現在媒體開始報導最新的報導說"},{"start":8683.939,"end":8692.828,"text":"台積電、亞利桑那三廠已經看到A16 1.6米的製程奈米的製程"},{"start":8695.507,"end":8714.208,"text":"他不是一個報告就可以決定這個公司將來做了以後會不會賺錢我要請問其實我們非常擔心的就是掏空台積電在台積電不能被日積電掏空也不能被美積電掏空所以部長我再問一次"},{"start":8714.628,"end":8735.368,"text":"你過去所說的台灣有N加2製程相關規定如果規定沒有改那台積電兩奈米以下的就不能夠到海外去你這樣的說法跟立場還在嗎當然在還在我跟委員報告一個半導體的製程沒有那麼容易可以往外送"},{"start":8737.717,"end":8749.35,"text":"所以現在如果台積電要在美國做1.6奈比如果我們台灣沒有解封的話我們沒有解除這個限制的話美積電是不可以做的不是"},{"start":8750.185,"end":8771.125,"text":"我的意思是說我跟委員講的意思是說他去是要能夠賺錢他不可能把一個很生疏的技術往那邊走這個是大家都可以了解我想委員如果你是董事長你也不會說讓這個一個去到美國然後虧錢允許他去進行這樣的一個計畫"},{"start":8772.866,"end":8775.548,"text":"我們在美國總統大選之後請問一下台美21世紀倡議的相關的談判已經結束了嗎"},{"start":8799.797,"end":8820.449,"text":"還在進行當中我直接的請教這個院長我現在聽到一個訊息也就是美國因為一直在檢討我們有關於對美牛跟美豬的這個台灣進口的一些障礙所以呢現在美國要求我們要進口"},{"start":8821.325,"end":8832.893,"text":"美國牛角肉而我們現在聽說賴總統已經答應有沒有這個事情美國牛角肉跟委員應該清楚齁"},{"start":8834.669,"end":8850.236,"text":"21世紀臺美的貿易倡議他第二階段有環境、農業、勞工三個方向在走我們持續在階段性的進行那前一段時間說真的美國大選美國大選期間雙方接觸是停下來比較多的時間並沒有實質上的在進展"},{"start":8853.285,"end":8867.254,"text":"所以你也沒有否認我們已經準備進口牛絞肉前一段時間因為美國大選所以談判結束是停下來的目前沒有談到第二個問題我聽到的都很明確我希望讓院長因為等到時候你們也是一定要公佈的不要在這邊迴避問題第二個"},{"start":8871.991,"end":8887.309,"text":"美國的豬肾豬肾的來季容許值現在是0.04ppm我們也已經同意把美豬豬肾來季的容許值提高一倍有沒有"},{"start":8890.622,"end":8909.598,"text":"請問委員這個資料是從哪裡來的我們沒有看過這樣的一個命題我就問院長有沒有嗎沒有這樣的一個數據放在前面說我們要討論這樣的意思沒有這樣的數據要開放美國牛角肉跟提高美國出生的萊劑PPM都沒有"},{"start":8911.008,"end":8930.233,"text":"前一段的接觸是停下來是沒有在討論實質內容的但是台灣身為一個國際社會的議員當然在國際的標準底下我們可以跟其他國家做很多的交流我還是要講因為美國的新任政府他現在在任命一些部長"},{"start":8931.82,"end":8960.414,"text":"我們還是要為我們的食安把關好不好當然我知道美國的壓力很強大但是我們要為食安把關另外剩下一點點時間因為剛才啊國際的標準就是台灣的標準這樣子一定會食安把關我們應該更嚴格啊如果按照美國的標準不得了啊世界的標準國際的標準我說國際的標準那就代表你要開了嘛對不對不是我說剛剛委員是說要為食安把關我說我們跟國際是同步的"},{"start":8960.862,"end":8974.056,"text":"另外我要回應一下剛才那個我們副總召跟我們的部長有一點口角但是我必須說因為部長其實政務官在公職人員這個財產申報裡面"},{"start":9024.91,"end":9047.549,"text":"因為照理說你應該做財產的強制使用而不是去迴避相關的法令喔好 謝謝謝謝謝謝不是要迴避法令我相信我們這邊有漏洞嘛你本來就應該強制使用啊結果你轉給你兒子的那個投資公司啊不行的啦謝謝哈謝謝王宏偉執行謝謝卓院長、經濟部長的備詢"},{"start":9050.137,"end":9067.731,"text":"接下來請登記第7號陳培宇委員質詢好謝謝主席有請卓院長謝謝再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":9076.676,"end":9096.418,"text":"陳委員好好 院長早關於今天這個最佳預算案我想要就直接表達我的立場我呼籲朝野立委要共同快速的來通過這個預算案怎麼說我們有一些論述但是在這個論述開始之前我想要公開的表示對台電同仁的感謝我們來看下一張"},{"start":9097.932,"end":9123.223,"text":"在0403大地震的時候呢大家發現當時台電加上民營電廠總共有8部機組跳脫第一時間減少了大約320萬千瓦的供電能力但是很神奇的是沒有造成像921當時大停電全台大停電不知道院長你還會不會記憶我記得我當時是大學生我在我的那個租的小房子裡面"},{"start":9124.444,"end":9149.242,"text":"兩三天沒有電那我的助理說他當時住在臺中是高中生一整個禮拜都沒有電921的時候可是這一次0403大地震很快就恢復供電那當時呢就有很多人在問到底發生了什麼事情但我們看到後續的資料說是前瞻計畫的建設加強電網韌性讓部分機組受到地震影響的時候其他的能源可以及時補上電力的缺口"},{"start":9149.822,"end":9163.497,"text":"關於前瞻建設的部分院長你要不要說明一下到底我們當時做了哪些事情才得以讓我們的生活可以快速恢復供電謝謝委員對台電同仁心情的肯定真的在幾次颱風的當時"},{"start":9166.176,"end":9184.045,"text":"颱風之後的一兩天我都會一天接到四五次從台電轉到經濟部郭部長傳來台電在包括台水在各個縣市地區的停電斷電以及修復的狀況還有他的修復的比例尤其前兩次的颱風馬上就到達98% 96%"},{"start":9187.286,"end":9192.949,"text":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條條文修正草案：第12會議報告事項："},{"start":9213.627,"end":9222.503,"text":"部分已經接近比較好的一些基礎設施才有辦法達到這個目的所以前幾天水利捷我特別去跟台水的同仁表示感謝"},{"start":9223.571,"end":9244.234,"text":"過幾天我也會去跟台電的同仁再度的表示感謝感謝的不是我個人我是代表國家跟人民對這些同仁的辛苦表示感謝那這個工作要持續進行台電在未來四年還是要用更多五千多億的經費要來強化我們的電網韌性那我這個希望台電在這個工程進行當中也能夠如期如質的完成"},{"start":9245.216,"end":9267.18,"text":"沒錯 院長你把我本來要講的話講完其實我自己也曾經在經濟委員會的時候公開跟部長說我們真的要公開感謝台電台水這麼多辛苦的同仁但是一般人民真的會問如同在野黨委員也關心到底為什麼要增加這個1000億的預算如果我們用簡單的數學算式來看基本上電力的支出成本其實包含好幾個部分"},{"start":9267.6,"end":9291.918,"text":"在發電、輸電、配電跟售電也就是所謂的發、輸、配、售一起來都有相關的成本那可是我們一般人看到或者是我們剛剛提到前瞻計畫裡面電網韌性的建制通常是放在所謂輸電跟配電的成本以上我的解讀是對的嗎?院長電網設備是在輸配電那我們來看一下如果在能源進口能源不斷高漲的這個甚至"},{"start":9293.431,"end":9307.536,"text":"費用倍增的情況下我們在發電成本已經增加了對嗎可是到了末端售電的部分呢如果就一個簡單的數學來說如果台電他今天是一個要賺錢的公司當所有的成本都增加那我們是不是末端的售電"},{"start":9308.676,"end":9331.167,"text":"價格是不是也要提高照理說這個公司才能夠賺錢可是如同院長在您剛剛的報告當中你提到幾個非常重要的關鍵也就是台電公司為什麼要吸收這些成本呢因為我們想要照顧民生我們想要穩定物價我們想要支持弱勢我想就這件事情的角度是不是可以請院長再多說一點"},{"start":9331.987,"end":9346.665,"text":"讓人民更有感這個追加預算的部分並不會花去剛剛包含在野黨王宏偉委員所說的他可能補貼到奇怪的地方去我想這個部分是要請院長公開說明一下我們如何照顧民生穩定物價支持弱勢"},{"start":9348.444,"end":9370.126,"text":"謝謝委員每筆預算的合理跟有效的管控我跟委員是同樣的重視行政院有非常非常的用各種的管控的方式來嚴謹的來家裡處理2022年到現在我們除了因應國際燃料的上漲之外我們對於民生用電在住家住宅跟這個小商店補貼的有2600億"},{"start":9372.332,"end":9393.649,"text":"我們對於衰退的產業我們用還漲的方式我們也吸收了697億將近700億我們在照顧社會弱勢這個方面我們也吸收了台電有吸收了213億這個整個加起來就是接近我們報告當中的過去到現在累積的虧損達到4100億左右"},{"start":9396.491,"end":9423.964,"text":"那次資金100億我們過去2022、2023兩年2023、2024兩年我們用增資2500億希望能夠加總他的公司的營運其中用得最多的就是電網韌性的加強跟設備的更新那其他的補助包括現在今天請大院支持的這個1000億的最佳預算我們會用在對於這些穩定物價民生照顧、肉食照顧的方面"},{"start":9425.625,"end":9447.364,"text":"絕對不容許也不會成為剛剛他說的各種犯罪之溫床絕對不會行政院會絕對的要求經濟部跟台電內控要做得很好接受外界透明嚴格的檢驗我非常開心聽到院長剛剛部長您也站出來了你們的公開宣示我相信對國人來說是一個非常重要的承諾"},{"start":9447.984,"end":9462.434,"text":"那過去的事情我們當然要積極的徹查可是未來我們相信您剛剛說的所謂中小的企業衰退的產業還有弱勢的部分我相信政府積極的照顧其實人民會有感的以上這個部分就先謝謝部長你請問 謝謝沒有讓部長講到話接下來我想要談關於才化法"},{"start":9466.877,"end":9481.854,"text":"因為上上個禮拜財化法的事情從禮拜一開始到禮拜三我人都在現場不到三分鐘之內硬推的財化法修法我個人必須要說我有非常多的情緒跟不滿怎麼說呢我們先來看一下"},{"start":9483.673,"end":9507.307,"text":"朱立倫主席他前兩天說他說當時有人問他說國民黨裡面是不是自己的智庫還有不同的版本那他對外的說明其實也不清不楚那我認為如果國民黨自己內部都沒有共識但要強推一個不知道到底唸了什麼條文的法案送出委員會照大家來討論甚至要來表決我覺得非常的荒謬我們再來看下一張"},{"start":9508.649,"end":9525.892,"text":"那甚至呢他這兩天又公開發言了他的發言說中央不能集權又集權要適度下放財源給地方做分配他甚至拿台灣省時代的地方稅收來做舉例那我個人的觀點是這樣請院長您指教聽聽看"},{"start":9526.793,"end":9541.969,"text":"我認為在過去我們從103年到114年我們中央透過所謂的中央統籌分配稅款還有所謂一般型補助計劃型補助我們送到地方的錢增加了非常的多"},{"start":9544.19,"end":9567.19,"text":"從5486億增加到1兆151億我們甚至因為這樣讓非常多地方財政的困境都得到解決甚至債務比也逐年下降以上我的資料不知道是不是正確謝謝委員的提醒我覺得朱立倫主席是會計的專長通稱精算師又做過行政院的副院長"},{"start":9568.564,"end":9595.371,"text":"那麼除非他在副會長任內完全沒有看到中央的財政否則他怎麼會有這樣跟事實相左的一些看法京省之前中央地方確實是六市之分但京省之後原來省政府的11%的工作跟預算都歸到中央來所以中央跟地方差不多是請責25對75"},{"start":9597.796,"end":9620.524,"text":"但是這當中的15%包括省立的高中、省立的醫院、省立的機構跟人事完全移到中央來那現在要把這個移回到縣市去難道是要把這個全部移給地方嗎那以後我們的國立的高中、省立高中變成國立高中之後難道以後要變成縣立、市立高中嗎"},{"start":9621.164,"end":9649.289,"text":"我們的部立醫院原來的省立醫院難道以後要變成縣立醫院嗎我想人民不會接受也不會允許國家的方向政策也不容許這樣走所以我們現在是認為說過去這幾年下來目前的財政收支方法縱然大家對它有所意見我是認為現在我們執行起來最有把握把握就是中央地方的分配跟中央地方的各種財務我們從我們的法律義務支出一般性的補助計劃型的補助"},{"start":9651.169,"end":9665.416,"text":"一直到中央該有的一些維持費用等等比例上都是如此那其中包括統籌分配稅款包括一般性的補助包括計劃型補助在地方的明年就超過1兆零151億"},{"start":9666.536,"end":9688.248,"text":"就是我剛說的數字嘛比較多沒錯沒錯好我們來看下一頁其實剛剛院長你已經回答了我本來要問你的問題就是精神前後的比較我們來看下一張中央到底放出了哪些資源喔這件事情我覺得非常重要如同教育端您剛剛說的高中職的部分還有各縣市政府的補助還有大家最關注的勞健保經費和老農津貼"},{"start":9690.069,"end":9717.651,"text":"我想這件事情如同院長您剛說的我覺得有需要讓更多的國人知道但是除了一般國人之外我們來看一下專家學者怎麼說在兩次公聽會今年的6月5號跟10月7號兩次的公聽會有九位學者專家就建議一個非常重要的事情你要下放財權的同時請把事權做同時的考慮如同院長您剛說的我想要舉一個例子"},{"start":9719.361,"end":9744.913,"text":"我們來看下一張當中央把這些錢當中央把財權釋出並且在不新增舉債的前提之下就會排擠到中央的稅出但是我想要快速舉例我想要先請切到下一頁我想要舉一個例子南台科大財法所的所長羅老師他就說我就唸給院長聽他說目前提出的修法版本仍然有盲點就是只強調財源沒有強調釋權"},{"start":9747.814,"end":9769.111,"text":"也就是政府承擔財政資金的職責沒有規範如果地方窮的原因是因為財政揮霍行政怠惰那有沒有相關負責的機制我想要跟院長分享我住在花蓮十幾年我的兩個小孩也都是U開頭的小孩就是花蓮的身份證"},{"start":9770.492,"end":9793.21,"text":"剛剛副總召他拿出花蓮觀光的案例說這個中央政府要做更多的事情如果我現在用一個例子我用那一天陳玉珍召委他快速通過財化法所有錢都拿到花蓮縣政府去那照理說本來在這一次0403震災之後中央所給的交通的補助住宿觀光的補助甚至相關"},{"start":9794.071,"end":9810.001,"text":"屋舍重建的補助通通都到地方去了那照理說花蓮縣政府是不是應該把所有的事情都領回去自己認真的執行並且完成鄭災後花蓮的重建我的邏輯這樣是對的嗎如果他把錢都拿走他是不是應該要這樣做"},{"start":9810.501,"end":9826.135,"text":"理論上如果一個縣市這樣去做或許問題不是最大如果很多跨縣市的開發合作案無論是交通的無論是整體的園區的開發如果是跨縣市那兩個縣市的協調又相形困難因為"},{"start":9827.199,"end":9848.133,"text":"各種程度會不一樣那中央過去這麼多年來就是在做這樣一個財政調配的能力這個就是在財政收入發放法裡面很清楚的表達出來那我希望我們未來大院在討論這個過程的時候能夠用精確的數字來看未來整個發展我覺得精算要算財政不要算政治"},{"start":9848.393,"end":9873.563,"text":"好沒錯算財政很重要剛剛我講的是單一縣市但是院長回應我跨縣市也謝謝院長的提醒確實以我們住在花蓮為例喔很多時候大家去到花蓮不會只去到花蓮會是宜花東一個順暢的觀光路線所以如果有很多交通建設甚至是文化活動它有跨縣市舉辦的可能性確實有回應到剛剛院長您所說的但是我要提喔前一陣子颱風過後蕭副總統曾經是花蓮的立委"},{"start":9876.624,"end":9902.956,"text":"他到花蓮去勘災災民跪下來求他救救大家前陣子有一個議員說花蓮縣政府窮得一清二白可是我要說我們攤開過去中央政府的預算給花蓮縣政府其實非常非常多在交通建設文化觀光建設還有每次只要發生大事之後他們只要一較窮中央就給錢給相關的配套給積極的協助但是"},{"start":9903.536,"end":9918.862,"text":"如同這位羅老師說的如果地方政府相關的揮霍、怠惰甚至沒有問責的機制請問這筆錢這整個行政措施的低落我們要如何對花蓮人交代對所有台灣人交代"},{"start":9919.242,"end":9937.542,"text":"因此我要說對於傅坤祺總召剛剛所提出來再度拿出所謂花蓮觀光要來要補助這件事情回應到我剛剛說才化法的荒謬我要拜託院長也要拜託朝野的立委大家要審慎的考慮相關的才化法修法是不是方向是正確的如果只拿錢"},{"start":9938.243,"end":9958.537,"text":"不問是權不問是責我認為只會造成更多的荒謬也許我心愛的花蓮會更加落得一窮二白因為目前我們看不到所有觀光的配套因為過去花蓮縣必須組織很多觀光的業務文化推動的業務教育地方政府建設的業務如果沒有相關的配套"},{"start":9958.837,"end":9987.79,"text":"造成目前大家覺得花蓮好慘好慘好慘甚至花蓮人還要落入那個被嘲笑的境況我個人真的真的非常的不捨所以在這裡我要再一次呼籲當然也要向院長拜託我們財化法真的要更加審慎面對這件事情而不是放遊所有地方政治亂喊亂叫就以為拿走的錢但是相關的責任卻不願意付謝謝陳培宇委員的質詢謝謝卓院長及相關部會所長的備詢"},{"start":9993.635,"end":10015.19,"text":"接下來請登記第8號黃建豪委員質詢好謝謝院長我們先請行政院卓院長跟財政部莊部長請卓院長財政部長備選"},{"start":10027.759,"end":10042.578,"text":"彭國瑜好院長好部長好這個首先一開始還是要先回應一下剛剛院長的這個言論剛剛院長說這個地方上的這個鼓勵學校會不會回到縣市裡學校我想台中恰恰好就是有這個問題"},{"start":10043.559,"end":10061.928,"text":"我以前的高中叫國立高中現在變成市立高中所以它的裁員很多部分都是要由市政府來質疑但是地方政府的預算它並沒有明顯的增加所以很多時候都必須仰賴教育部、國教署這些補助所以回到如果要談到裁划法我利用一點時間表達一下我的立場"},{"start":10062.788,"end":10075.915,"text":"如果今天就是因為地方政府草原不足才有很多時候需要跟中央來拜託需要中央來質疑所以在財務法的修法上面我個人也是希望說能夠事權能夠來把它統一能夠把它一致化誰負責"},{"start":10078.167,"end":10098.296,"text":"全權要統一啦地方政府要負責這些市立高中的財政那他理論上他的經費就希望能夠來增加才能夠對應到相關的市權那不然所有事情包含不管國小國中到高中市立許多市立學校到最後的經費因為不足都必須跟教育部跟國教所來請求所以這個問題我希望說在院長任內也能夠確實來解決"},{"start":10100.057,"end":10128.178,"text":"不管財務法最優秀法版本怎麼樣我們希望地方的教育的經費能夠有充足的經費才能夠讓我們下一代有一個比較好的教育環境不知道院長認不認同這樣的說法過去四年來地方政府的財政都持續在進步當中負債的狀況也明顯的改善因為中央在很多的政策上面比方說對中低收入戶的這些各項的照顧都是用一般型補助的2500億來做支應所以這相形就是"},{"start":10129.29,"end":10145.042,"text":"對地方一種在政策上財政上的支持所以才能讓地方比較有好的財政那未來我們可以再好好的討論但是如果討論到最後是中央政府怎麼完全喪失了他的功能不是你我所願吧好 院長我不要讓中央政府喪失功能我們還是提到"},{"start":10145.74,"end":10173.296,"text":"希望該誰付錢他的經費就能夠多一點人權次都要合一好這有共識啦沒關係我們進到今天的主題我想先談一下這個超中稅收的部分我想從110年以來每年我們的超中稅收超增稅收4千億5千多億將近4千億今年預估又要再4千億我想第一個當然財政機率問題到底為什麼每年我們會從人民的口袋中超增這麼多錢"},{"start":10174.637,"end":10202.172,"text":"這個部分所以請院長或是部長簡單跟我們說明一下到底是發生什麼事情為什麼近幾年來每年的預估都失準這麼多我們現在叫做時增數超過預算數而不是超增請部長說明跟委員報告稅的增收都必須依照法律的依據所以每一塊錢都是按照法律依據來課徵的那這幾年呢我們的稅收時增數超過預算數那當然這個部分"},{"start":10202.634,"end":10218.77,"text":"事實上都在10%到20%之間的一個差距這個估測那在估測方面呢我們當然實實在在精進當然之前也說過因為在我們在籌編預算的時候到實際執行完成大概有一年半以上的時間這中間會有一些國內外經濟情勢的改變"},{"start":10220.872,"end":10237.017,"text":"以及各種狀況的一些變動但是呢這個當然是一個因素我們也持續在精進我們的估測方式包含我們成立專家小組那專家小組裡面除了本機關之外還包含央行國發會對我知道專家小組成立之後我想在這個財政部的時序裡面我看了對我們這個部分其實也實況經濟的更"},{"start":10243.72,"end":10267.961,"text":"我說包含執政黨委員對你們專家小組的成效打很大的問號我這個部分其實尤其在113年來看的話增加的比較多的才是正交稅也就是說我們在去年預估113年的日均量是3500億元事實上比前一年的事實上已經增加將近1000億但是今年到目前為止其實日均量達到5000多億所以這個部分事實上整個的一個任務"},{"start":10269.302,"end":10287.196,"text":"這個回應當然你先前在財政部質詢的時候都已經有回應過了那我只要問說應該說我希望從明年開始我們希望我們的超徵的稅收對我來講這叫超徵啦當然你們有你們的名詞解釋我們希望不要再這麼多因為這都是來自人民納稅錢嘛好不好這是第一個那第二個"},{"start":10288.136,"end":10302.774,"text":"過去幾年111年跟112年的超徵稅收都有部分拿來撥補台電我想問一下今年的這個4千億的稅收的部分會不會因為你提到要用來還債這個還債的部分有沒有包含台電"},{"start":10304.715,"end":10325.224,"text":"跟委員報告今年的時增數超過預算數中央的部分大概是3000億那這個部分我們第一個是減少舉債這舉債的部分是公務預算的舉債的部分跟台電台電它是一個公司組織並不在我這個公務預算所以這4000億不會用來撥補台電這個撥補台電是另外一件事因為我知道撥補台電另外有說今天的這個4000億對啊"},{"start":10328.965,"end":10344.859,"text":"院長說什麼對不起院長你剛回應在早上的報告裡講到我們這個這次的最佳預算我們用的是稅計算我先不提這次最佳預算這次最佳預算是另外一件事情我講的是今年光是超徵的這部分的事前印你即將用來還債嘛"},{"start":10346.863,"end":10362.395,"text":"第一個我們減少舉債然後增加還債之外然後我們會累計到稅基剩餘稅基剩餘以後就作為以後的融資財源以後融資財源當然是在運用上的話就看整個資源的一個配置在預算上如何配置它的資源好 謝謝部長的回應我想這個"},{"start":10363.556,"end":10376.267,"text":"如果用到這個剩餘財源裡面來去的話就會跟今年類似的狀況啦因為我看今年我們現在正要即將進入省的這一千億的部分也是用過去的剩餘的部分來處理那這樣我聽得懂了好部長謝謝部長可以請回座"},{"start":10378.422,"end":10397.703,"text":"我們看一下台電的部分我想一千億大概是什麼概念一千億我想就是政府這個全年用於醫療保健和環境保護合計的支出差不多就是一千億換句話說如果今天這一千億的撥補不是給台電的話我們的醫療保健跟環境保護的支出可以翻倍這是我的概念"},{"start":10398.644,"end":10423.592,"text":"我常常講台電這幾年過去是拍得出好順這幾年感覺起來有一種慈母多敗兒的感覺每年都在跟政府要求要經費的補貼112年已經給了1500加5000今年已經先給了1000同時現在正在要求追加預算1000當然我想開源節流很重要對吧"},{"start":10424.58,"end":10447.435,"text":"開源節流我想從今年的這個財報從今年結構來講電費調漲的部分今年目前為止已經有630億的收入那在能源的這個減免的部分因為今年我想這個能源價格有稍微下跌一點所以可以按照這個預估可以省下400億一來一回之間大概今年已經多出1000億了"},{"start":10449.226,"end":10475.314,"text":"就是公務預算已經有1000億了那按照財報你電費今年已經增加了嘛收入預計會有630億成本又下降了400億合計起來這個1000再加1000然後現在又再多1000是不是這樣子算法是這樣算沒有錯公務預算跟最佳預算是各有1000億所以我就說為什麼我講慈母多敗這個錢是越加越多那另外講開源節流我不知道你們有沒有注意到一件事情"},{"start":10477.674,"end":10496.39,"text":"這個一百百部長怎麼樣報告委員我想是這樣子我們這一次請大院能夠瞭解這一千億事實上在彌補我們過去因為這個政策上面來照顧這個民生沒有漲價的部分所以累積的這個我知道這個你們在所有的報告裡面都寫了"},{"start":10497.271,"end":10526.037,"text":"希望能夠改善臺電的財務狀況因為財務我們現在虧損那麼多我們必須要跟銀行借錢這個借錢利息的負擔其實也蠻沉重的那如果再繼續不改善的話我們這個利息的籌碼就沒有所以這點請務必大院能夠了解然後給我們這1000億的補算至於說經營方面的話我們會努力的就像您剛才所說的因為我們造成虧損大概就是"},{"start":10526.836,"end":10534.044,"text":"材料的成本太高了您既然提到借錢我們就要跟你談借錢的問題借錢有利息的問題啊111年應該112年因為這個利率調升所以你們的這個"},{"start":10539.517,"end":10563.769,"text":"利息費用從205億增加到279億那從今年來講111年度的話利息的費用在你們的所謂的成本結構裡面按照發電成本結構裡面佔2.22%去年在2.87今年已經來到3.62%所以我剛剛提到不是要開源節流今天你要跟立法院要1000億之前我們要問的是說你們有沒有想辦法節流比如說利息的部分今天"},{"start":10564.249,"end":10585.12,"text":"台電既然要負擔國家這麼重責大任要去穩定物價穩定民生那為什麼利息你們不能跟銀行談呢為什麼我們政府不能出手呢如果你連新青安都可以出手的話今天台電是負責全國的這個利率耶為什麼台電的佔比利息從2.22提升到3.22從企業經營的角度你增加1.4%在你的成本結構裡面不該去處理嗎"},{"start":10586.781,"end":10614.254,"text":"有人去處理嗎銀行他有他的授信條件那所以說我的財務狀況如果沒有改善但是我又要政策上面去照顧這些這個民生的電價不讓他漲要動漲所以這個是有一點困難在那個地方所以如果大院能夠同意讓我們這個撥補進來趕快改善這個財務那我的信憑就不會下降這點請委員我想你相當可以同意嘛你看我那個"},{"start":10614.894,"end":10634.859,"text":"借的錢那麼高比例那麼高事實上我們可以從這個地方改善當然經營上面我們要盡量經營讓它是正向的正向的收益我想這個在企業的上面我個人是非常贊同的我要問一下院長院長剛剛部長也提到的確我知道銀行當然有授信條件但是今天台電是獨佔是國家的"},{"start":10637.06,"end":10659.258,"text":"你是負擔這麼多重責大任那就想提到的今天利率你對一般企業當然你授信條件會調整但是對台電理論上你今天又要再跟我們要一千億但是你的節流你沒有先做啊你沒有去努力過嗎我想問一下院長你沒有去找財政部找各家銀行來談過說是不是利率能夠給台電一點減免嗎還是就是市場多少我就照多少走"},{"start":10660.353,"end":10683.775,"text":"台電基本上是一個股份有限公司他應該用公司的治理但我也鼓勵台電能夠用本身的各種條件去爭取更好的優惠那台電部長就坐在這邊他們可以自己談一談我們希望你們就是在至少在這種可以省錢的地方要省下來啦不然這一直增加下去也不是辦法嘛那再來看到所謂的發電成本"},{"start":10685.719,"end":10709.213,"text":"這個發現成本我想今天既然要來檢討這個一千億的問題因為我們看到這個最佳預算的總說明裡面八百多字都沒有提到這個結構的問題只有不斷的重複說因為你們要穩定民生所以要需要這一千億但是到底為什麼造成了這麼大的虧損沒有置之不提啊但是我們今天看到說從這個台電歷年來的這個成本結構大家都很清楚一件事情"},{"start":10710.049,"end":10716.495,"text":"不管是自己自發電力還是購入電力成本逐年上升這確實也是實際上的問題那我們就要問了"},{"start":10718.851,"end":10735.62,"text":"你自發的電力你的成本很明顯的就比所謂購入電力來的低尤其在再生能源的部分再生能源的部分你們自購的電力平均的成本只要2點多塊那這個購入電力的話再生能源的成本是從3.69從106.3.69現在平均成本漲到了5.2、5.3"},{"start":10740.522,"end":10768.624,"text":"所以這就是核心的問題嘛就是你們到底錢花哪去那包含說我們看到說這個整個發電成本的改變從110年開始的確大幅的上漲大幅的上升所以這幾年虧損非常嚴重110年之後虧損只有幾百億而已現在變成破千億了四千多億今天院長早上講的數字四千多億所以我想核心問題就是發電成本的問題啊那我想問一下我們到底對於發電成本今天假設真的同意一千億給你們"},{"start":10769.718,"end":10778.69,"text":"那你發現沒有改變的情況下面你不是虧損繼續嗎?去年已經累積虧損三千多億了去年也撥補了還是累積虧損三千多億如果今年又再給一千億撥補進去你的虧損是不是還會持續下去?"},{"start":10781.428,"end":10803.445,"text":"三點跟委員報告第一個發展綠能是整個世界的趨勢那台灣為了讓吸引更多的國際大廠來提供綠電也是我們必備的條件之一再來就是電價的這個成本的計算台電應該從內控做好更多的成本計算的管理才能夠真正的反映出真正的發電成本"},{"start":10804.085,"end":10824.112,"text":"那發展綠能的過程當中第三點我們未來一定要全力杜絕各種的犯罪來增加各種的不必要的支出跟負擔我想這樣做下來之後是不是有可能朝向一個更合理的電價我們來朝這個方向來努力那至於說核電他當然表面上看起來是"},{"start":10825.012,"end":10834.118,"text":"是比較低的可是他未來的隱性的成本處理核廢料的那個費用是相當相當的大因為我們在綠能的發展綠能的發展我們已經過了那個最高峰的成本時代我們未來"},{"start":10840.743,"end":10864.153,"text":"就一定是往下降這個我待會跟你討論所以我們已經度過了那個最困難的時代現在大家支持我們就會有更好的方向可以走院長你剛剛既然主動提到核能你說看起來帳面上看起來價格比較低引信成本比較高那就台電有問題嘛或是經濟部的問題嘛如果引信成本高我不是說處理有問題我是說你沒有辦法在財報上看出這件事情"},{"start":10864.893,"end":10881.922,"text":"如果照你這樣理論來講的話核電當然後端成本有成本的問題再一次能源後續後端也有足以的問題啊如果這招算下去那算不完嘛那如果這樣算的話應該是所有的能源配比後續怎麼退場機制你他要能光電板你要回收你也需要成本啊"},{"start":10882.222,"end":10896.164,"text":"那你是多把成本記錄到所謂的財報裡面那如果沒有的話我們只能就現有的台電貼給我們的財報來討論這個數字嘛那你講後面的事情那我覺得這不太公平啦因為包含說再生能源的成本要怎麼去處理你也沒有辦法放進去那最後因為時間不夠了"},{"start":10898.715,"end":10914.326,"text":"我要講一下沒有人會跟台電過不去啦大家都希望說台電能夠活下來但是就算我講了一開始講的這叫慈母多敗而已我們今天最擔心的是什麼就是今天一千億會花哪去再生能源裡面自購的金額是2.53自己自發是2.53"},{"start":10917.788,"end":10935.061,"text":"購物電力卻高達5.2那加上媒體的報導所有這種綠電蟑螂我們今天最擔心的就是說一千億給你們之後結果沒有把錢花在該花的地方去你自購這麼便宜自己發電這麼便宜可是你要採購的成本又這麼高那這一千億到底會花哪去我想這才是民眾關心的"},{"start":10948.695,"end":10971.586,"text":"好 謝謝黃建豪委員質詢謝謝卓院長、經濟部長的備詢接下來我們報告院會現在議場二樓旁聽的是中華慈善協會所有的好朋友們熱烈歡迎慈善協會還有包括美國都有來的謝謝 熱情歡迎接下來請登記第9號蔡易瑜委員質詢"},{"start":10981.548,"end":10990.496,"text":"謝謝院長那我們是不是有請我們卓院長以及我們經濟部跟財政部長麻煩再請卓院長經濟部財政部兩位部長備詢院長好蔡委員好院長那趁今天在處理這個台電的追加預算的時候那我想先來聊一個這兩天的時事題"},{"start":11010.134,"end":11034.211,"text":"因為昨天新聞有去報導那川普政府雖然還沒有上任但是他已經抓住中國的幾個問題其中他包括說他為了要防止秘魯的中汽港轉運所以川普的團隊他會認為說你只要是經過中國擁有或者是控制港口的轉運商品都應該要繳交60%的關稅"},{"start":11037.411,"end":11057.99,"text":"這件事情在昨天的新聞報導出來然後他也說了說類似像秘魯的前海港或者是該地區中國他有辦法控制的商品的港口轉運的商品轉運所以這件事情讓我們知道說川普事實上他就是開啟著美中貿易戰"},{"start":11058.735,"end":11071.775,"text":"那美中貿易戰他從過去他祭出了這個301調查那後來看起來拜登政府是延續他301調查的態度所以在拜登政府的時候他還針對中國的電動車"},{"start":11074.319,"end":11094.338,"text":"剋了100%的一個重稅那針對中國的太陽能半導體都剋了60%的一個稅金好那如果以這樣的一個趨勢那台灣以這幾年的一個經濟的一個發展我們對中國的貿易的依賴是逐年的下降對美國也提高而且在了今年度還超越了歐盟所以現在"},{"start":11094.778,"end":11117.284,"text":"台灣跟美國已經是美國已經是台灣的第二大的一個貿易市場所以我們對美國的依賴是越來越深那我要進入我要問的了那如果在此時此刻包括說美國川普發現秘魯的這個狀況好 那我們現在就看到我們的現實面我們在立法院有人正在推離島至今區"},{"start":11119.708,"end":11146.465,"text":"我們在立法院我們看到在推離島資金區那其中的一個條文這個條文由我們的委員陳玉珍提的這個條文他認為說離島建設條例要增訂18條之一那這18條之一要把離島變成這一個自由貿易的示範區那這個自由貿易的示範區他針對這一個整個資金區的管理辦法包括資格審查"},{"start":11148.366,"end":11169.839,"text":"這個檢附的文件多由里島政府的自治條例來定那報行政院被查也就是說未來里島建設條例18條之一他可以跳脫兩岸人民關係條例40條之一就是所謂必須要由這個中央政府來做審查或者是兩岸人民關係條例29條關於到說中國的船舶或者是運輸工具"},{"start":11175.642,"end":11204.902,"text":"運輸工具要來台灣的話要主管機關的許可甚至還包括政府採購法他直接跳過就是說未來中國可以在離島這邊來做來直接來做採購的業務這樣起來是要讓離島要走向秘魯這樣的一個道路嗎所以院長我想要聽一下說我們現在政府對於這樣有可能會造成的這個演變那我們中央政府有怎樣的看法"},{"start":11205.843,"end":11232.643,"text":"首先非常敬佩委員這個非常深入觀察美國新政府各項已經宣布的或是未來可能實施的一個政策那直接他會牽動到整個國際的局勢那委員又能夠從國際局勢看到現在國內各種法令可能變更上面帶來的各種的影響我覺得這個是要我們深深在心理上要做一個心理準備要引以為戒的不要陷入到"},{"start":11233.183,"end":11254.013,"text":"我再想說什麼是未來國際的主流台灣應該跟主流站在一起我們站在民主供應鏈站在民主理念相同國家這個主流台灣是不會改變也不能改變的那世界地理上和平要穩定發展經濟上也要均衡互惠產業結構上也要合理的合作如果有人破壞了這個穩定"},{"start":11256.514,"end":11272.23,"text":"破壞這個均衡也破壞了這個平等和互惠那當然他會成為世界上大家抵制或攻擊的對象我相信大家世界各大國不要成為這樣的一個對象基本上中國的企業過去就是補助嘛尤其是政府的補貼"},{"start":11274.204,"end":11298.01,"text":"補貼政策造成競爭上的不公平所以美國事實上對於中國這件事情耿耿於懷包括川普現在很想把一些工廠一些勞動回到美國基本上他都是認為長久以來中國的補貼政策已經造成這個經濟的不公平我現在很高興我看到他現在要用這個離島自經區未來會不會變成洗產地"},{"start":11301.361,"end":11320.369,"text":"這個棋產地的一個問題然後讓台灣未來被台灣Made in Taiwan它被貼上標籤變成跟中國製造把它畫上等號之後那未來美國的關稅制裁301調查會不會因此反食了台灣的台灣現在的一個出口台灣現在的科技產業的一個優勢委員這個顧慮應該呈回政府"},{"start":11324.949,"end":11346.212,"text":"政府的顧慮我們不希望我們有一天會成了這樣子同時我也認為國內的產業更不希望Made in Taiwan這個精緻招牌有一天會被取代所以我是覺得這個我們應該從這個政策的因應上面好好的來處理也希望大院在討論相關法律修正的時候也要以國際局勢的主流發展為"},{"start":11347.293,"end":11365.727,"text":"我想這件事這個很重要所以當然這問題在立法院我也希望我們立法院在通過在處理這樣的一個法案的時候一定要審慎應該為了台灣整個大局的一個安全我想這個應該要審慎那第二個回到今天的主題就是"},{"start":11366.307,"end":11383.133,"text":"我們知道台電公司在面對從烏俄戰爭發生後那整個成本的一個提高那院長事實上你在今天的報告中你也舉到了說事實上類似在日本在韓國這國營事業都因為成本提高有很大的一個虧損"},{"start":11384.073,"end":11408.02,"text":"那用這個政府的一個補助的方式來協助臺電這樣的國營事業來渡過難關事實上日本、韓國也都是這樣做那我們臺灣到目前為止已經透過補助或增資的方式給臺電已經如果再加上這一次的追加預算可以通過的話我們將挹注了四千億"},{"start":11408.78,"end":11415.245,"text":"那如果這4100億住之後我們對於台電未來的一個穩定他們不再虧損他們穩定的經營那院長這個你們有信心嗎各國對這個電業的虧損是"},{"start":11423.459,"end":11444.878,"text":"各國都有補貼的政策也是各國採用的方式之一因為每一個國家不同的處域那我們從過去的增資到現在這一次的這個補貼的政策我們一方面希望增強台電本身的財政能力讓它有辦法去更新設備加強電口同時又必須對這些民生弱勢以及"},{"start":11445.538,"end":11469.765,"text":"各種的政策補助他能夠做以前這些虧損的回應那未來台電的經營方式部長跟我們都說過很多次內控要嚴謹從他的採購機制從他的資金靈活調度從他人員管理都必須做很全面的改革才能再一次爭取國人的信任我相信在這個郭部長用他"},{"start":11471.266,"end":11491.262,"text":"這個經營企業的理念之下他有信心對台電做大力的整頓是不是請郭部長來表達來請郭部長報告委員我想我們很快的去檢視這個台電為什麼過去為什麼虧損然後從那個虧損的原因裡面呢拿出來檢討我們能力新的能力來把它這個調整"},{"start":11492.23,"end":11513.04,"text":"那我們再看起來過去這個虧損主要還是因為兩個項目第一個就是說這個補貼因為他沒有辦法漲價所以他補貼這個不漲這個民生的物價考慮到民生物價所以他不漲這個部分呢非台電本身的能力的問題第二個是他買的材料的價格高了那這個是環境的問題"},{"start":11513.86,"end":11525.954,"text":"所以對我們來講未來要改善的就是從這個兩個部分一個是從採購的部分因為我們的材料也好設備也好都是從國外買的我們不允許他的成本增加第二個對於這個"},{"start":11528.797,"end":11550.19,"text":"政策上面補貼的部分這個部分我們希望能夠對各個的這個機構他能夠從節流節電這個上面來協助他能夠正確的使用這個電我相信透過這兩個機制下來的話台電應該是可以表現的比過去更清楚"},{"start":11550.59,"end":11569.941,"text":"所以部長事實上對台電未來有你們會加強通過管理的方式讓他們可以更加精進事實上我也提出一個具體的建議我在上一次質詢的時候我就有講到因為我們知道台電負債很多現在這個負債這個負債已經如果這樣抓起來可能已經到5000多億"},{"start":11572.813,"end":11599.727,"text":"五千多億是一個很大的負債那負債當然是要跟銀行舉債所以我事實上就蠻好奇的是說舉債那是跟哪些銀行舉債那後來我經過這個資料的一個整理我發現說大概台電的一個舉債37%是跟台灣銀行那剩下的7%的話有包括土地銀行那核庫也是第二大的是19%"},{"start":11601.388,"end":11626.997,"text":"但是我們實際把它區分起來就有國營跟民營嘛對不對那所以看起來國營的是48%民營的51%那站在我們對於整個站在政府的立場因為台電公司如果他預先的這樣的狀況我們大家百姓用稅金去幫他所以我們就會認為說那台電的舉債應該要盡量集中在國營銀行"},{"start":11628.984,"end":11652.111,"text":"國營銀行來借他那後來我有在細部去看齁臺電為什麼跟國營銀行借款齁 他的誘因比較少當然49也很高的啦 不過他也有一個誘因的問題就是國營銀行大家叫的女生比較高高一點點齁 甚至臺銀齁 也是說齁所有的銀行齁 臺銀的利息最高"},{"start":11653.842,"end":11673.927,"text":"臺銀的利息最高所以這個就會變成說臺電在取捨上會有一個難度囉所以說我要跟 照理說我應該要多跟臺銀借因為這個利息的收入也是屬於是一種國營銀行也是屬於大家的 它也是我們北省的嘛但是它的利息比較高所以臺電就不愛臺銀借就不去臺銀借"},{"start":11676.588,"end":11702.362,"text":"國營銀行那部分有關股可是關股佔一點點這樣的比例上我認為臺電的這樣的一個借款是一個很大的錢那我們應該要去適度調整國營銀行貸給臺電的比例這個比例可能要從利息上讓他們是更加符合合理的效率這也是替我們中國中央政府來欠錢的意思啦院長我這樣說你應該可以理解吧"},{"start":11703.741,"end":11719.216,"text":"還是這個有我們...我們可以回去跟一些財務專家來討論什麼樣的方式可以...要找那麼多,不然說找那麼多他理想最軟當然我就不要理他就台電的日報就是說我新郎的帳號理想槓最高這樣啦理想槓最高我就很理他就這是合理的嘛"},{"start":11724.745,"end":11739.642,"text":"所以我是覺得說這個中間有一些有一些我 我覺得說 啊 再調整一下台營這邊這個財政部長可以去考慮看看啊對不對 利息降一點台電多借一點我們也賣料捏"},{"start":11741.883,"end":11743.984,"text":"長期負債與短債之間的關係當然有長債與短債但是我有跟內部溝通起來"},{"start":11762.273,"end":11784.672,"text":"主要還是台銀的利息比較高啦相對其他銀行是最高的委員說的也不道理啦我們今天希望大院支持追加預算那我們自己也要表現一下誠意啦是啊是啊謝謝安院長我們表現一下誠意回去我們好好檢討一下那大院支持那我們自己也做量力來做好這些工作那台電的經營財務狀況能夠讓他好轉"},{"start":11787.199,"end":11811.374,"text":"那我最後一題事實上要聊就是說事實上我們今年的稅收在差不多9月的時候聽說就達標了所以我們事實上台灣這幾年的經濟那種爆發力很恐怖去年兩兆三千億的我們預估的稅收結果後來超出了將近五千億"},{"start":11812.506,"end":11831.267,"text":"所以我們在今年度事實上就已經抓到了兩兆七千多億的預估的稅收就是你把去年超這個都管進來了結果今年還是這樣看起來部長我們莊部長應該會多個三四千億還是會有吧去年去年全國是超過"},{"start":11832.388,"end":11854.586,"text":"預算數3800億中央是2900億那今年呢我們的稅率預算在11月底已經達成全年度的一個目標那主要還是稅客收入的成績好那稅客收入那今年在全國大概會超過4000億那中央的部分會再超過這超過還蠻多的所以部長我贊成你說的我們不要再普發現金"},{"start":11857.728,"end":11878.04,"text":"因為普發現金當然百姓拿到很開心但是那個開心花完了感覺就沒了花完了感覺我覺得我們現在要政治的就是說臺灣的科技產業這樣的爆發成長但是相對的我們的很多過去我們臺灣很重點的產業包括我們這裡做螺絲的包括這種環刷的這種種產業的他們確實這幾年比較辛苦"},{"start":11883.247,"end":11904.801,"text":"而且他們的辛苦不是今年不是今年 因為差不多在前幾年就開始辛苦所以這幾年都是他們的谷底那我們在計算說這一次的電價在調整的時候我們是用今年做標準用今年不好的可是他說 我兩年前就不好了兩年前他就在谷底了所以他在谷底當然沒有辦法被你們計算被經濟部這邊計算"},{"start":11929.506,"end":11931.007,"text":"謝謝蔡議員的質詢謝謝卓院長及相關部會所長的備詢謝謝"},{"start":11937.083,"end":11940.749,"text":"報言會上午的質詢到此為止我們下午2點30分繼續開會進行預算報告之質詢現在休息"},{"start":21296.125,"end":21323.364,"text":"院會現在我們繼續開會進行預算報告諮詢接下來我們請登記第10號洪孟凱委員諮詢院長謝謝麻煩請莊文泰院長"},{"start":21325.743,"end":21343.915,"text":"麻煩請左院長備詢好 左院長好 時間有限我想幾個部分先跟您做請教也確認您現在的態度"},{"start":21344.594,"end":21366.046,"text":"首先上午我們有看到您針對媒體答詢的時候有回答到NCC的人士因為我們上禮拜的這個三讀通過那確定現在代理主委的資格是沒有辦法符合的那你說你要用最快的速度要來做再檢視委員的名單我想請教你是現在三位委員還要再重新提出還是說"},{"start":21367.625,"end":21394.878,"text":"只要針對翁柏中一個人的部分好 謝謝委員我想我們共同的目的都是希望讓通傳會能夠順利正常合法的運作所以在這個前提底下因為到底經過了一段的時間也波折了很多的事情我必須回頭去看看已經被提名的被提名人當中是不是還要請問他們是不是還願意留在提名的名額方面的裡面我當然很誠懇的希望他們繼續留在"},{"start":21395.836,"end":21417.448,"text":"被提名的名單裡面那如果不足的人數我們就去盡量找尋適當的人數我認為這個事情一快步一慢越快越慢因為從今年第二會期立法院開議到現在9月開議到現在11月多了您知道NCC的人事是哪個委員會來審查嗎"},{"start":21419.576,"end":21436.721,"text":"在審查的過程我一直知道他卡在卡在這個程序委員會沒有啊7月12號的時候就已經進入程序委員會了9月的時候就可以審查了但是我們委員會一直沒有排審是在交通委員會啊那民進黨的召委一直都沒有排這個人事審查"},{"start":21437.401,"end":21447.318,"text":"所以換言之民進黨他可能也覺得是說是不是民進黨稍微也認為說你現在提名的名單是讓國人沒有辦法接受的那為什麼會沒有排審為什麼會沒有排審 您知道嗎"},{"start":21452.089,"end":21479.047,"text":"這個可能要請委員去在院裡面去了解一下可能是議程上有所延誤或是我不知道狀況我有期待說盡快排審這是民進黨的召委刻意不排審嘛所以你會在最快速度提出相關的名單本席一直講人事的部分我們專業審查 嚴格把關所以只要能夠審查我們一定會直球對決好好審查所以最快什麼時候你會提出來"},{"start":21480.026,"end":21506.463,"text":"我說今年這個月月底會提出來嗎12月我甚至希望能夠再快一點因為12月以後可能11月底就要提出來12月以後的這個NCC通傳會的功能會受到一些限制所以11月底還有10天左右在這個氣氛底下要去請適當的人能夠來擔任被提名人如果有需要再增加人選的話這過程還要經過一番的"},{"start":21506.943,"end":21521.934,"text":"考量所以院長現在決定權在你阿你不要拖延我們就可以進促審查不過適當的人要找到適當的人要爭過一定的時間好院長那我們就看您所謂的盡快到底是多快好不好那再來第二個部分喔昨天我們有召委前往"},{"start":21523.275,"end":21546.013,"text":"這個相關的司法單位去了解才發覺說有一個很嚴重的問題我想雖然這是司法院的問題可是這跟我們法務部也息息相關國人更是高度關切就是在今年的大法官釋憲死刑的這個案件之後發覺現在37名死刑定驗的死刑犯他們有30位他們的這個所謂的判決部他是不見了"},{"start":21546.974,"end":21573.437,"text":"所以換言之評議部不見了所以換言之他就會變成說他可以提出非常上訴那我們甚至我們的召委有講到說這個30名的死刑的評議部已經銷毀所以未來他們申請非常上訴的時候有可能就會要求可以回家院長如果三審定宴的死刑犯突然間可以要求回家回到一般的民間"},{"start":21575.341,"end":21582.201,"text":"會不會覺得這個事情非常嚴重知識體大對我們台灣的治安民眾的觀感來講您怎麼看"},{"start":21583.172,"end":21610.142,"text":"當然經過法律司法三審定院這個應該執行死刑的這些受刑犯應該都有相當的反社會性或許他個人有一些自己身體精神上的問題但是反社會性的行為已經被法律所認定了那麼在憲判當中提到必須要一致決那就可能要從相關的現在就是因為當初的評議部不見了所以他沒有辦法證明一致決與否"},{"start":21611.542,"end":21622.03,"text":"那所以說他們才可以提出非常上訴而且這樣子提出來是一定會被非常上訴那我們現在在講說這30位因為這30位可能是之前就三審定讞的"},{"start":21623.595,"end":21648.564,"text":"所以我知道這個問題可能牽扯到最後會發生的就是到底他們有沒有經過憲法法庭要求的那個程序那如果程序因為這樣而沒有辦法得到印證說已經有經過法定條的程序的時候即便他們有相關的非常上訴可以來進行但是在這個當中的過程裡面絕對不允許已經三審定讞的37名死刑犯離開監獄"},{"start":21650.644,"end":21679.121,"text":"當然這個決定在法院那我認為依照現在社會的氣氛如果因為這個事情沒有辦法去認證他過去是不是已經履行了這個法定的憲法所要求的程序那因為這樣的原因我是覺得法院應該要審慎的來評估未來這些這個受刑人他應不應該在一定的保護當中不要對社會造成另外負面的討論會比較好所以我的建議是應該從嚴來看"},{"start":21680.402,"end":21698.224,"text":"是當然應該從原來看而且未來本席也會提出相關的修法包括已經判決實行定業即便他未來他有可能做翻盤或說他沒有一致決的話也終生不得假釋或者是無期徒刑的判決也終生不得假釋院長你同意嗎"},{"start":21699.185,"end":21715.291,"text":"如果經過大院的討論那也跟國人的共識有這樣的一個連結的話那我們再經過法律你的態度啦我經過法律的連結這樣審慎之後我覺得法律如果這樣定下來那行政機關當然是依法行政我也認為應該考慮到社會的觀感"},{"start":21717.571,"end":21733.22,"text":"考慮到社會尷尬所以百分之八十的民眾都認為不應該廢除死刑我要拜託求求行行好我們民進黨政府真的不要再推廢死了我們會很重視百分之八十的民意但是這一些個人的問題我們還是要去尊重來講到"},{"start":21735.146,"end":21756.731,"text":"這個部分今天也有一個民調說死亡交叉我不知道院長有沒有看到因為這當然不是一個好聽的話啦人家如果說是候選人跟候選人叫黃金交叉但自己跟自己比尤其滿意跟不滿意交叉了就叫死亡交叉來今天最新的民調說不滿意高於滿意再來下一張"},{"start":21758.484,"end":21773.18,"text":"上任半年這個機構認為是說卓內閣的好日子結束了而且他代表的卓內閣一個月內流失超過一百萬的支持者當不滿意超過滿意的時候代表卓內閣已經失去多數民意的支持院長身為當事人您怎麼看"},{"start":21777.446,"end":21805.625,"text":"那當然所有的民調對我們來看都是非常嚴謹的一個鞭策那從過去歷史的民調當中起起落落都有沒有只有落沒有起有啦也有啦這比較殘酷啦因為這民調很科學如果有起我一定講起但有落尤其是同一份民調裡面一直是有死亡交叉院長起起也有起也有落啦那落到今天這種狀況對我們來講是一個比較大的一個警訊我會要求內閣團隊齁"},{"start":21806.866,"end":21827.759,"text":"要非常的嚴正看待社會國人對我們的看法因為一定是我們在政策推動的時候不夠的踏實說明的不夠清楚你自己認為過去這半年的時間因為11月19嘛回推520剛好半年是這半年裡面你覺得做最不好的有哪一些哪幾個部會是讓你最頭痛的"},{"start":21829.403,"end":21855.059,"text":"哪幾個部會我想部長都非常的認真但是底下有一些人事上的糾紛是我們一再的出現人事我倒是覺得這應該可以我們應該有能力來避免像最近幾個部會裡面有一些任用上的問題那麼一段時間沒有辦法給社會一個正面的說明我覺得我們應該有能力來處理另外就是在一些人事的任用上面引起社會一些討論這個我們都引以為戒"},{"start":21857.486,"end":21883.789,"text":"院長您點到重點了人事的任用跟在野黨沒有一點關係因為人事的任用安排選擇以及發布這完全都是行政部門的權利所以我沒有規則在野黨任何問題所以本席要提醒的就是過去到現在在野黨理性專業的監督但我們一直一而再再而三提醒不要用人為財用人為律用人為親"},{"start":21885.643,"end":21889.258,"text":"用人為彩啦不要用人為青用人為綠啊但說實在話"},{"start":21891.24,"end":21919.367,"text":"好像過去這大半年不是這麼一回事也因此人事的部分一直讓外界認為是說是不是有關係就沒關係沒關係就大大有關係才會變成這樣的情況不是嗎無論如何都是有嚴重的問題因為我們在一些金融機構國營事業任用的人也得到社會一些掌聲但是當中有一些出現了他個人的因素等等問題我們以後會多更審慎的考量院長如果你可以學一學我們現在中華隊的教練"},{"start":21920.492,"end":21934.062,"text":"把是才是所好的投手好的打者放在正確的位置上不要考慮派系不要考慮出身不要考慮他是哪一個職棒球隊的我相信你會獲得更多的掌聲我們一起為中華隊加油好不好來 院長"},{"start":21936.403,"end":21953.629,"text":"本席拉回來今天在講的所謂的這個追加預算1000億的部分現在今年要再補貼台電1000億明年要再補貼也編列了1000億再加上過去有所謂的強化經濟韌性計劃撥補500億以及過去有2500億的增資其實短短這兩年我們給台電已經近5000億它的一個成長了"},{"start":21963.092,"end":21977.894,"text":"但是我們要講錯誤的能源政策比貪污可能更恐怖啊我們要問的是說到底現在民進黨為什麼在能源提供永續以及國際大環境的詢視之下是不是還死抱著非核家園這個神主牌"},{"start":21979.431,"end":21996.382,"text":"包括有廢核家園是環境基本法23條所明定的但也是民進黨主政以及民進黨人數多數之下所以說才去修訂阿我想你應該不否認廢核家園是民進黨神主牌這句話吧不是神主牌是法律的規定所以你現在是民進黨神主牌我們應該記得歷任的總統"},{"start":22000.117,"end":22021.222,"text":"對於非核家園都採取正面的態度當然是採取正面態度當然採取正面態度但馬總統當時一直強調是要以核養綠就是認為是說未來有一天當人類的技術跟科技到達一定程度的時候我們可以完全的用綠能取代任何的能源的時候我們當然就要擁抱綠能可是在現在過渡的時候有比"},{"start":22022.827,"end":22047.629,"text":"核能有比其他能源更加困難而且不現實的情況那就是什麼火力發電啊所以有看到最近COVID-19正在開會嘛童子賢董事長怎麼講核能不是綠能對付的目標啊我們一直強調是核能要對付的是火力發電是燃煤燃氣因為燃煤燃氣的排碳才是大宗下一頁"},{"start":22050.198,"end":22068.597,"text":"臺灣是不是應該能夠務實地談核能因為COVID-19對於核能的態度是開放的有20幾個國家已經簽署了到2050年核能三倍宣言2050年讓核能成長發電三倍院長有看到這個新聞嗎有您認為呢"},{"start":22069.861,"end":22098.129,"text":"這二十幾個國家他們是罔顧民意不注重民生還是他們認為說應該要實際務實面對檢探目標院長台灣身為一個現在科技生產的主要國家我們也希望世界大廠能夠來台灣設廠設立它的研發中心等等那麼他們要求要求綠電的這個強烈要求我們應該滿足所以發展綠能還是現在我們的主力"},{"start":22098.709,"end":22125.953,"text":"除了發展綠能之外從頭到尾沒有反對阿發展綠能去發展阿本席百分之百雙手贊成發展綠能但是在發展綠能的同時現在是你們用火力發電來滿足還沒有綠能成熟情況的缺口這才是現在台灣的問題阿不是我們發展綠能之外現在我們台灣的火力發電高達幾成深度的節約用電跟科技的儲能我們都一併發展也強化電網同時之下我們對於新的核能技術"},{"start":22126.573,"end":22142.563,"text":"院長你應該很了解現在台灣的發電情況吧我們來看一下台灣2023年統計只有16.9%是低碳發電而高達八成都是火力發電包括燃氣跟燃煤再來"},{"start":22143.897,"end":22167.039,"text":"世界各國怎麼看我們為什麼一直強調是說核能是選擇我們沒有說一定要如果有更好的不排碳的能源可以取代核能用電低廉並且穩定發電我們也希望能夠支持但是現在的技術就是有限制但是核能一直是穩定的發電它不會因為氣候不會因為環境的變化而起伏"},{"start":22167.537,"end":22190.393,"text":"你看一下當太陽下山的時候其實光電的發電就會消失的來再下一張瑞士他們放棄了非核家園的政策瑞典放棄非核家園的政策義大利放棄了非核家園的政策芬蘭重啟電廠法國以核能科技為傲下一頁義大利宣布要重啟核能下一頁"},{"start":22191.621,"end":22220.62,"text":"瑞士我們常講瑞士算是我們這個先進國家裡面環境人文都名列前茅的但他們認為他們的發電比例高達44%的核能高達47%的水力太陽能佔8點多趴他們不用火力發電就是因為他們認為是說火力發電其實會影響到整個空污而減少風電跟光電這才能夠讓環境永續"},{"start":22221.801,"end":22243.299,"text":"好 最後時間有限 但院長我希望你看一下你今天有喊話說陳啟玉要出來但鄭明謙法務部長他講說南檢是有掌握他的行蹤的所以與其信心喊話你要不要要求一下法務部長應該要叫南檢交人我已經速度要求部長能夠儘速把這個案子辦好出來人怎麼辦"},{"start":22277.247,"end":22283.292,"text":"好 謝謝時間已到 謝謝侯孟楷委員的質詢 謝謝謝謝卓院長、經濟部長的備詢 謝謝接下來我們請登記第11號吳思瑤委員質詢謝謝院長 有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":22309.58,"end":22312.23,"text":"務委員好卓院長大家辛苦了"},{"start":22313.171,"end":22340.932,"text":"一次的質詢是15分鐘但是我準備今天的質詢至少花去15個小時我非常認同您今天上午講的一句話我們在預算會期就預算論預算就財政論財政我們一起來當財政的精算師而不是當政治的精算師我今天就以財政榮景no longer財政災難coming soon"},{"start":22341.505,"end":22346.231,"text":"就教於您這是我們眼前非常嚴峻的挑戰下一頁"},{"start":22347.153,"end":22372.239,"text":"首先我支持今天台電追加減一千億的預算幾個關鍵字我們以歲季剩餘的支應來追加我們也比照國際要反映發電成本這個全球性的現象我們要控制物價抑制通膨穩定民生所以呢透過這追加的一千億我們也要"},{"start":22373.159,"end":22393.946,"text":"來協助台電改善他的財務穩健台電的經營而後我們能夠有餘裕投入更多的電力建設來強化電網的韌性最終是全民受惠我們的供電要無與穩定所以我支持今天這一筆預算的編列下一頁"},{"start":22394.706,"end":22421.154,"text":"謝謝委員支持但是呢我們能夠用歲季剩餘來支應是因為我們這幾年民進黨政府的執政經濟好稅收豐所以我們財政佳如果我們這樣的一個財政榮景no longer財政榮景不在了我們的財政災難很快就來了我們必須嚴正以待"},{"start":22422.287,"end":22444.273,"text":"您認為我們未來的財政災難是什麼如果依照現在看到的幾個版本對中央政府的預算大幅的挪移到地方去那中央政府已經在做的很多基礎建設無法繼續進行會到地方如果跨縣市的合作困難中央政府很多在做的對"},{"start":22445.734,"end":22456.224,"text":"弱勢者的照顧會流到地方去地方執行的狀況是不是一樣能夠滿足大家的需求我相信還要努力更多我們的長遠的計畫更新興的計畫更無法推動"},{"start":22459.271,"end":22476.186,"text":"謝謝院長您已經破題了您直接進入了財化法的修正首先我分兩大面向第一面向還不進入財化法我們現在馬上要面對的是在野的立委大家都搶當散財童子啊"},{"start":22476.846,"end":22495.46,"text":"大家都想要當聖誕老公公爭相地提出錢坑法案、肉桶法案用立法的方式來搶奪行政的預算權我這一頁秀出來的是包括六大項的一次性經費有環島高鐵國道6號這種交通類就超過兩兆"},{"start":22499.603,"end":22515.04,"text":"還有委員提案要用超徵的稅收來普發現金還有委員提案醫療的農村的這些都要加碼再加碼一次性的經費透過委員的提案就有3兆140億"},{"start":22517.902,"end":22544.965,"text":"還有一類是每年都要編列支出的當中很大的一宗就叫做反年改的相關法案要復辟了所以每年要擴大支出的由委員提出來的提案有八大項還包括65歲的老人完全免健保這都一來一去整個八項所以說這種每年都要編列支出的"},{"start":22546.109,"end":22561.522,"text":"立法來加碼的又高達每年2340億加起來就是一個財政的無底洞這個是可以計算數額委員寫在條文裡面的下一頁"},{"start":22562.81,"end":22578.076,"text":"以在野黨委員提出來的錢坑肉桶法案他沒有寫金額的更難以計算這裡總共有14項從離島的壯世代的原住民的勞工的眷村的兒童的"},{"start":22578.556,"end":22607.177,"text":"委員們都說要擴大照顧但是加碼再加碼動輒以立委片面修法的方式來增加國家的預算支出造成財政的大黑洞我說的這還是第一趴而已還沒進入財化法下一頁所以說我要再次肯定我們11月1號行政立法兩院的會談您說的僅此一例"},{"start":22608.75,"end":22634.369,"text":"僅此一次下不為例就針對原民禁法補償那個個案我們確立了一個兩院的共識預算權是行政權的核心領域換言之我認為我們11月7號在您主持的這個兩院的會談之後我們等於對於這些錢坑法案肉桶法案某種程度是拿到了護身符跟保護傘您認同嗎"},{"start":22638.004,"end":22652.783,"text":"為什麼當初我一直堅持在那個情況底下一定要達到這樣的共識行政院制定編列預算立法院審議預算互相尊重那麼如果有大幅的增加支出、稅出一定要徵詢行政院意見"},{"start":22654.544,"end":22678.215,"text":"擬憑資金的來源找出資金來源甚至要進行相關的修法那我很欣慰11月7號我們達到這樣的共識不過也是謝謝韓院長先前做了相當多的努力跟大院的草野各黨團能夠在最後我們形成這樣的共識那這個共識就是未來兩院互動的唯一模式所以剛剛你說的這些法案它應該會經過這樣的模式再來產生"},{"start":22680.253,"end":22708.978,"text":"造成的損失傷害可能會降到最低我也非常期待兩院的共識在野黨的委員在爭相提出乾坑肉桶法案的時候都要謹記在心我也非常期待有了11月7號兩院非常好的共識之後在野黨的委員對於這些的肉桶法案都應當三思而後行不要再重蹈覆轍這個是我們共同的立場"},{"start":22709.958,"end":22731.788,"text":"下一頁第二個我們財政的超級大核彈就是財化法您剛剛已經優先破題了為修而修為快而快的財化法吳斯堯列出了我反對的四大理由第一個他分配不正義第二是權不統一第三財政沒有紀律"},{"start":22732.708,"end":22754.779,"text":"第4沒有提出配套措施如果要談財化法對於地方制度法、公債法、地方稅法通則、規費法、行政區劃法都應當一併來審視所以這是我反對現在搶修財化法的四大理由下頁"},{"start":22755.899,"end":22763.144,"text":"我就教於院長什麼是財政收支化分法您可不可以非常用簡單的兩三句話告訴我們"},{"start":22764.332,"end":22789.554,"text":"其實它一個很重要的精神就是地方自治在地方制度裡面的地方自治以前我們講的都是權限的劃分而沒有支出的劃分如果權限的劃分要用支出的劃分做前提那支出的劃分就要以收入的劃分來當作前提如果能這樣的話那地方該做什麼事該給什麼樣的錢它就事權都能夠合一"},{"start":22790.054,"end":22814.18,"text":"您講得非常好錢、權密不可分不可切割如果要錢下放權也要下放也就是財政收支劃分法的核心是權限劃分的核心就是支出的劃分支出的劃分又是要以我們的收入的劃分來做前提"},{"start":22815.08,"end":22839.175,"text":"有收入就要支出所以我們反對現在在野黨的版本就是他不管錢花哪裡去他只管錢往中央挖進來這就是一個財政他只是財政收入劃分法他不是財政收支劃分法下一頁"},{"start":22840.792,"end":22849.902,"text":"災難來了三分鐘通過的財化法掏空國庫6612億中央可用的財源會由1兆771億大幅的縮為4159億如果扣除國防可能就剩下1000多億"},{"start":22861.255,"end":22888.242,"text":"核心就像您剛說的中央政府就沒有辦法運作而地方搬了這麼多錢挖了這麼多錢地方可以執行這些事權嗎花一點時間跟您匯報我昨天整理到半枚鐵桿的一些草木首先我是教科文領域出身的我針對教科文來做很快的匯報"},{"start":22890.117,"end":22913.594,"text":"如果財化法被在野黨搬走6612億教育的部分我先看高等教育高教完全是中央教育部在做不是地方政府如果在高教的部分就有1292億他會受影響包括本席爭取的83億的大學新宿舍運動"},{"start":22914.935,"end":22937.107,"text":"包括本席爭取的我們擴大租金補貼協助青年住校也有租金補貼28億的預算又包括賴清德總統現在提出海外青年圓夢計畫這些高等教育攸關青年學子的權益這些事項地方政府是沒有辦法執行的下一頁"},{"start":22938.154,"end":22959.824,"text":"教育的部分我們來看看國教國教某種程度跟地方政府比較相關但是就本席整理的如果被地方挖走了6000多億我們國教會有1118億受到影響國教的部分譬如說我們現在在修學生輔導法"},{"start":22961.434,"end":22977.796,"text":"立委提了好多版本要求說增加地方的專輔教師輔資中心專輔人力人事費就要靠中央補助欸就要32.6億如果前輩才化法搬走了這些部分也沒有辦法補給地方了"},{"start":22978.382,"end":22991.595,"text":"所以就教育的部分如果國教11181受影響那我們好好來把市權跟地方政府攤清楚這些項目哪些東西地方應當承擔回去執行"},{"start":22992.372,"end":23015.291,"text":"就是教育下頁科技教科文看科技科技就是國家的國力所以科技的部分科技專項計劃有17項科發基金有17項加起來657.6億也會被才化法大刀一揮之後受到波及"},{"start":23016.192,"end":23037.794,"text":"科技政策包括AI包括我們的半導體包括我們的太空產業現在全力的加速要成為世界的供應商供應鏈的重要的一員這些地方657.6億地方政府能夠執行嗎不可能好 教科文看文化"},{"start":23038.835,"end":23062.326,"text":"文化建設從視覺藝術到表演藝術從地方的博物館到中央的文化資產到影視音的台流計畫黑潮計畫包括文化禮金讓青少年有一年一千兩百塊去親近藝文文化的部分有132.5億地方有辦法去執行嗎這是教科文下一頁"},{"start":23063.126,"end":23083.994,"text":"荷里加債憲法保障了教科文的15%的保障好理加債才化法二修有憲法來保護教科文的經費但是呢憲法有保障經費只有教科文其他沒有明定保障的項目我現在講災難在這裡我們快轉來治安"},{"start":23087.795,"end":23110.287,"text":"國家的社會安全網治安的打炸360億食品安全43億道路安全加起來也已經是超過300多億社會安全網加起來加所有的社會安全網食安、治安、道安到社安要911億地方有辦法接回去做嗎下一頁"},{"start":23112.141,"end":23134.216,"text":"醫療健康健保絕對是中央的全責我們有權也有責所以健保財務的協助方案今年編了192億提升醫療服務的品質200億加起來健康台灣我們要做392億這些都是全國性的地方有辦法執行嗎在下一頁"},{"start":23135.197,"end":23158.355,"text":"少子化政策少子化政策有衛福部的有勞動部的還有我剛剛教育部的少子化對策加起來其實加上教育部它是破千億的地方沒有辦法來接受再下一頁防災治水它是跨域性的所以要中央來執行有482億就中斷了下一個"},{"start":23159.196,"end":23178.775,"text":"交通軌道第一個這個是跨域的公共建設388億是交通部在協助地方的如果被搬空沒辦法做最後一個我們的前瞻未來的軌道建設加起來將近3000億這都只有中方中央能夠執行所以下一頁最後一頁"},{"start":23182.199,"end":23197.317,"text":"我不希望一個財政收支劃分法被惡修成財政收入劃分法只搶錢不管權這是國家的財政災難院長您都同意我的論述嗎"},{"start":23198.035,"end":23214.578,"text":"委員的憂心應該就是國家有事之事的憂心啊剛剛說到我們中央還有4159億那中間含了3000億左右的國防預算換句話說我們如果3000億做國防那這些都沒有辦法做反過來如果做了這些"},{"start":23255.302,"end":23260.506,"text":"好謝謝吳思堯委員的質詢謝謝卓院長財政部長的備詢接下來我們請登記第12號廖偉祥委員質詢"},{"start":23288.441,"end":23292.679,"text":"謝謝院長 有請我們行政院長卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":23302.472,"end":23329.207,"text":"調委員好院長好院長政府這三年間在這個墊的上面已經是掏空國庫還讓人民買單對台電增資及撥補的總額即將要達到五千億如果說從經濟部增資一千五百億易後特別撥補五百億然後到今年再增資一千然後追加一千明年再一千就是這個彷彿是在告訴我們台電變成了一口無底潭"},{"start":23330.595,"end":23359.271,"text":"同時台電這三年間也不斷漲電價民生電價漲了30.4%工業電價更是驚人的66%這個情況就像是開著一個破洞的水桶民眾的水源不僅被加價抽走還要負擔修補破洞的費用請問一下院長按照台電的各種發電成本哪種發電形式是賺錢的我們是不是有管理的手段可以優化至少讓台電不再虧損呢"},{"start":23362.698,"end":23387.588,"text":"我請委員我們能不能不要用掏空兩個字因為每一筆的支出不管是增資或是補貼都是經過大院的審議這是經過法律程序再來我們電價有漲但是跟我們鄉鄰國家相比較我們電價還是比較便宜的電價很明顯怎麼賣電怎麼虧啊未來台電是不是還需要左手向人民這個漲電價右手跟人民的那個稅金拿補貼"},{"start":23389.68,"end":23414.727,"text":"台電虧損的原因我們早上報告以及諸多委員的追詢我們都答覆了我們就是沒有辦法反映成本那今年我們10月份才用電大戶幾乎反映成本但民生電價還是有一塊錢以上的差距好 那除了虧損之外台電的資產管理更讓人家憂心啊坐擁金山卻沒有辦法開採這正是台電閒置資產最佳的寫照"},{"start":23418.311,"end":23437.357,"text":"資料顯示台電長期閒置或未依原定用途使用的土地面積龐大共166件301筆面積達27.7萬平方公尺其中閒置超過20年的土地有47件90筆面積達4.2萬平方公尺佔比超過15%這麼龐大的資產竟然躺平不動這樣子怎麼對得起繳稅的人民"},{"start":23446.274,"end":23461.463,"text":"那在節流的部分我再看一下節流的部分開源有問題節流的部分更讓人家憤怒致船費三年間因為卸貨延遲支付致船費高達30億元那這筆費用比燃煤還昂貴卻沒有為發電帶來任何的效益"},{"start":23463.624,"end":23473.049,"text":"再來物料存貨物料購入後時間久遠缺乏防護或處理導致報廢那今年的物料存貨也比去年增加了181.61億增幅達167.56%"},{"start":23478.832,"end":23497.507,"text":"那基本上這就是把資金還有這些東西壓在倉庫裡發霉然後最後可能還丟到垃圾桶裡請問院長剛剛講了這麼多就是要說台電既不開源也不節流那卻持續向人民漲電價向政府要補貼跟人民的稅金要補貼你覺得這樣人民有辦法接受嗎"},{"start":23499.029,"end":23519.642,"text":"台電的財產重估討論很多年很多次都沒辦法進行我認為這是一個可討論的議題另外致船費他有種種的因素那現在據台電內部的報告他們已經大幅降低這種風險院長我要說的是上面這一切不開源不節流還不斷的跟這個人民要錢我其實"},{"start":23520.831,"end":23547.52,"text":"不想要再追問說是不是可以保證台電未來不再需要編列撥補的預算因為其實答案蠻明顯的院長看起來就是不敢保證嘛對不對因為國際情勢變化很多但是我們一定就是不敢保證嘛我們一定極力的穩定民生跟物價只要能源政策和發電結構不改喔台電就繼續兩頭燒吃兩頭喔我覺得明年還要在這裡再討論同樣的問題而人民要持續的被迫買單"},{"start":23549.06,"end":23573.182,"text":"這樣無底填到底什麼時候才可以填滿請問院長你上次在備詢的時候還有部長備詢的時候有承諾要給這個紐委員當初說提出台電未來四年的財務規劃和財務模型結果只給了他不到一千字所以一字一億超過一字千金我想要請問究竟什麼時候可以提出來"},{"start":23574.025,"end":23584.059,"text":"早上部長有答覆過齁那個我覺得那個是一個初期的報告啦真的財務規劃不會那麼的簡約所以我要問說什麼時候可以出來嗎?完整的到底什麼時候可以出來?"},{"start":23584.625,"end":23610.296,"text":"完整的報告我們相信應該是因為這個要再整理一下的因為對未來的預估我們希望能夠給委員一些比較審慎的報告應該年底可以給各位年底可以給未來4年的財務模型財務規劃對不對是好請你記得年底就是12月底前的哪一個時間有具體時間嗎還是就今年一定會給"},{"start":23611.072,"end":23622.721,"text":"就是今年底嘛好但是還有一個條件就是預算要過他能什麼規劃在裡面啊不是你當然也要給規劃不然你這樣補到什麼時候我跟你講無底洞這個預算要過啊明年的預算要過他可能會規劃在裡面啊我們"},{"start":23625.839,"end":23640.027,"text":"這個委員你要的是我相信你要的是非常精準的精準然後預估然後如果你們照你們的計畫改善未來四年你覺得可以怎麼樣不是我們大概推論都會推論說大院會同意我們把這個撥補的給我們"},{"start":23643.493,"end":23655.139,"text":"阿因為如果沒有撥給我們的話部長我只是要問你你就是要給這個財務規劃你剛剛已經說年底要給那請到時候務必交出來不要再像今天一樣好像給了一千個字就要一千億阿"},{"start":23657.316,"end":23682.166,"text":"來院長前幾天西部地區空氣品質不佳那我們的環境部的監測數據多處亮起橘燈那胸腔克力醫生也甚至形容說出門抬頭一看灰濛濛的這個天空彷彿是沉默這個沉默之秋在台灣真實上演所以對大台中的市民朋友們來說不僅要忍受電價上漲還要忍受用費發電"},{"start":23683.7,"end":23700.388,"text":"那這種情況你覺得合理嗎然而那個時候日前也有民進黨的委員聲稱大台中的空污總量上升了3%該委員還說在這個其他污染源暴增尤其是焚化爐的部分上漲了48%請問院長你認同這種說法嗎"},{"start":23704.246,"end":23724.864,"text":"空氣污染的來源委員跟我都清楚很多的來源包括移動污染源包括外來的污染源包括我們工業的污染都有我問您認同剛剛我說民進黨委員的說法嗎說台中的空污總量上升了3%然後污染源暴增尤其是焚化爐的部分上漲48%請問您認同嗎"},{"start":23727.673,"end":23742.475,"text":"焚化爐的部分我可能要進一步了解到底焚化爐的上漲48%這個數據跟這個現況是怎麼...院長那我跟你講這根本就是一個政治抹黑手段根據環境部的空氣污染排放清澈"},{"start":23744.51,"end":23764.782,"text":"數據其實是這樣你11版的清冊裡面只有算了文山跟後里兩座焚化廠總量是641噸結果你到了12版的時候呢加入了烏日焚化廠三座加起來944噸那該委員呢就是拿11版跟12版對比就判定上漲48%"},{"start":23767.742,"end":23783.362,"text":"所以事實上如果兩個版本的統一算起來一樣的標準的話其實還有減少了15頓所以這根本就是在玩數字抹黑數字魔術亂湊一通抹黑這樣子說台中這個抹黑台中市政府的努力"},{"start":23785.588,"end":23809.704,"text":"請問院長這是一種錯誤的解讀還是刻意誤導大眾的行為不是依照數據解讀出來的結果如果能夠充分的說明他都一定有他的邏輯那這個部分我們只看到這樣的表列那邏輯是怎麼樣衍生出來的我說我真的不清楚我要再進一步的去探尋他這個我剛講解這麼清楚你還是不清楚喔不是啦這個就是說你研究的方法跟所取的資料"},{"start":23810.865,"end":23838.562,"text":"是不是有把它標準化我剛剛已經講完啦我剛剛全部都講給你聽啦它是不是用兩座跟三座亂比嘛對吧那你現在不敢承認沒有看到全部啦如果說我剛剛就已經拿給你看啦上面數字很清楚啊那為什麼沒有記錄或是後來為什麼增加這個一定有個原因一定有個原因的嘛亂用數字亂比較亂抹黑啊好事實的數據更清楚的顯示喔你剛剛說到污染源嘛"},{"start":23839.557,"end":23867.148,"text":"中火的空污排放是156522噸那佔大台中空污總量的60%那台中的三座焚化爐的排放量是951噸這個佔比就是4.3%那換句話說中火的排放量還是焚化爐的16倍多那這種壓倒性的對比難道還不足以說明台中最大的固定污染源就是中火嗎 院長"},{"start":23869.441,"end":23897.776,"text":"台中火力發電廠的存在是一個事實它也有一定量的一個排放但過去這幾年來我們空污削減已經將近七成那這個還是持續在努力所以我們最近希望以氣換煤的這個工一直在做中火一期的時候新增了兩部各130萬千瓦的燃氣機組那它一部的燃氣機組都超過了兩部的燃煤機組還要多"},{"start":23898.547,"end":23920.643,"text":"那按照這樣的發電效率實行這個真一氣拆兩煤本來也用容量來看也都合情合理也是可行的方案甚至院長這裡有一份環保署也曾經發文給台電說建議建議說這個應該是可以一氣拆兩煤的這樣的容量"},{"start":23921.564,"end":23946.278,"text":"那然而在一期的環評報告中還有環保署也曾經明確要求臺電應於這個新燃氣機組運轉後等同發電量的四部燃煤機組必須除液拆除而非轉為備用院長但現在二期規劃卻變成到2035年才完成增試器拆兩煤剩下的六部燃煤機組還要轉為備用"},{"start":23948.018,"end":23966.79,"text":"那這等於是怎麼樣?爭一氣拆0.5步啊?藍莓機組啊?不是不是不是委員你這樣是不是有錯?你這樣是不是形同跳票?2025、2026會各增加一個氣我說總量啊我現在跟你講整個總火的總量啊那個藍莓機組他一次就是拆兩莓"},{"start":23967.33,"end":23971.072,"text":"院長那個東西很清楚啦院長那個東西很清楚我繼續講下去馬上轉成備用等於是四個藍莓機組都不發電啦我剛剛已經說啦之前就已經說過第一期的時候"},{"start":23995.356,"end":24010.63,"text":"第一期的時候也有建議阿我們環保署就有建議就是說不要轉為備用而是要拆除是不是我剛剛就拿了這個東西那再下來就會拆除2031年就會拆除欸環保署比現在的環境部還要當初還要更加的在意我們的環境阿院長"},{"start":24012.833,"end":24018.877,"text":"2031、2032也會拆除兩個所以我們到了沒有,我們到了2032的時候增加四部燃氣機組也會拆掉四部的燃煤機組把另外兩部變為備用你現在總共六支天然氣嘛那你要拆六組燃煤機組嗎你現在要承諾換個嗎"},{"start":24040.373,"end":24056.395,"text":"日前的環評是拆四部燃煤機組在六部完成的時候是拆四部燃煤機組所以我那天那天我到台中我是說我們到2032年我們第四部燃氣機組完成的時候我們可以檢討後面的六部可以檢討但是你沒有承諾要拆嘛"},{"start":24057.316,"end":24060.498,"text":"即便即使中火一期的完成並商轉也只能夠減少空污排放量的69噸"},{"start":24076.027,"end":24097.127,"text":"對比中火的總排放量只減排了0.8%換句話說這不就是擺明還是火力全開嗎?更何況到115年的時候12月還有中家的燃氣電廠要商轉再加上中火的兩部燃氣機組一共增加了321萬千瓦的燃氣"},{"start":24098.929,"end":24116.139,"text":"增加了這麼多那卻沒有給出具體的減排碳的時程那這樣子避而不談什麼時候會有具體的時程我們時程都講得很清楚啊我們應該是去檢視那個碳的排量有多少剩下有多少我再繼續講一個你們的環評報告裡面"},{"start":24118.92,"end":24141.805,"text":"一期的結論裡面有說後續因辦事項明確限制了備用燃煤機組的啟用條件包括空氣品質AQI必須小於100最多啟用兩步累積時數不可以超過240個小時燃氣燃煤同時運轉的機組也不得超過10步但是今年的10月30號的二期環評裡面這些條件都不見了而且還把累積時數放寬到720個小時"},{"start":24144.446,"end":24156.9,"text":"這不就是意味著一期的和二期的一看就知道二期在放水啊對不對什麼時候但是備用基礎的條件他除了國安除了特定的狀況之外他是不會啟動的"},{"start":24158.427,"end":24187.951,"text":"他是不會啟動的我跟你講綜合以上你們在跳票的過程你們其實 你們說國安的疑慮還有能源不足的時候你們是不是就可以啟用他還是猜而且你們也有說到其實你那720個小時你是說你開啟用720個小時以內只要通知地方政府就好超過了是要他們同意那你還要綁著他們同意那代表是你不猜這未來都還是持續有可能會啟用你沒有辦法保證他是有條件限制的"},{"start":24188.391,"end":24202.997,"text":"那如果六個燃氣機組都順利的完成他當然有另外討論的空間這是我當天的承諾你剛說國安問題是因為是不是在模仿德國在二五戰爭下燃氣這個這個燃氣短缺的對策所以把燃煤機組轉為國安考量你懂我意思嗎"},{"start":24254.155,"end":24259.102,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝廖偉強委員時間已到謝謝廖偉強委員的質詢也謝謝卓院長、經濟部長的備詢 謝謝在接下來我們請登記第13號李坤成委員質詢"},{"start":24286.144,"end":24309.821,"text":"謝謝院長我們請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢李委員好院長好來院長有沒有看到我手上這條毛巾我身上也有挺台灣挺台灣那你知道這條毛巾是什麼樣的應援毛巾嗎"},{"start":24313.831,"end":24334.247,"text":"這是這一次十二強的應援毛巾然後這個現在我們的蔡啟昌會長也帶了這條毛巾然後到了這個東京那為這個四強的這個超級循環賽為台灣隊來加油那院長可不可以利用這個場合為我們的台灣隊的台灣的選手來為他們來加油"},{"start":24335.851,"end":24351.751,"text":"這幾天上個禮拜啦整個禮拜我們看到我們台灣隊的選手在場上的表現我們都非常的振奮也給國人很大的信心運動是一個最可以團結國人的一個比賽項目所以我們希望這一次到東京的複賽"},{"start":24353.288,"end":24368.234,"text":"在全國國人的祝福加油聲下他們能夠發揮自己個人最好的狀況拿下我們史上最好的成績但是無論如何現在已經是成功的出發我們希望他滿載而歸好 希望能夠拿到冠軍 對不對"},{"start":24369.744,"end":24390.246,"text":"是 要有信心阿這個是我們賴總統講的台灣最好要前進東京然後我也看到這個卓院長在臉書上面那也有這個發布這個照片然後這個祝賀我們的台灣隊選手然後到這個東京參加復賽然後呢 下一張我們看"},{"start":24391.387,"end":24416.83,"text":"這個是捷克的這個棒球的選手跟這個我們的賴清德總統擁抱在一起這個平常我們要這樣抱賴總統不太容易但是捷克選手他做到了然後還有這一個看到是這個我們的台灣隊長陳潔憲披著這個捷克的國旗然後捷克選手披著中華民國的國旗這都是相當成功的棒球外交啦"},{"start":24417.651,"end":24434.185,"text":"那未來我們運動部成立之後其實棒球外交也是一個非常重要的一個目的之一嘛那我想說我們棒球其實實力這麼堅強那是不是未來在我們的外交這方面棒球外交也有一個再有一個一定重要的角色是的用"},{"start":24435.492,"end":24462.806,"text":"有台灣原住的國際賽事如果能在台灣舉行對台灣的能見度是非常增高的那麼一樣的我們的運動的好手或是這樣強勁的隊伍能夠到國際賽事上面去進行比賽也將台灣的榮耀帶出去這個都是雙向的那我們也一直對於體育跟運動的發展投下相當多的關注所以未來明年我們希望在大院的支持底下我們的運動部就能夠很順利的完成成功"},{"start":24463.326,"end":24485.643,"text":"我查了一下規定 按照國光獎章的規定世界棒球十二強是符合國光獎章一等二級的獎勵資格所以呢 拿到冠軍的話每個人可獲得700萬 亞軍500萬 季軍300萬那我看到有一些地方政府也紛紛加碼了請問一下 那我們這個行政院或是我們這個體育署有沒有其他的獎勵或是加碼"},{"start":24486.874,"end":24503.621,"text":"目前我們是依照現在的獎勵制度啦地方政府會有所表示那很多的國內的大企業也會互相的幫忙加油我覺得這個都是覺得歡迎的除了國光獎剛之外我們是不是還有如果拿到冠軍的拿到前三名的有沒有其他額外的獎勵"},{"start":24506.755,"end":24528.616,"text":"如果在這樣的規定底下那就是國光獎章因為奧運有奧運 亞運有亞運那這個世界棒球比賽它有一定的這個獎勵的規定我們希望大家共襄盛舉因為有好的基地我相信選手能夠打出更好的成績那我剛才講到這一個運動外交其實我也在期待這個美國職棒大聯盟其實是棒球的最高殿堂"},{"start":24529.156,"end":24551.729,"text":"他們在2024年就是在這個今年的3月洛杉磯稻妻跟聖地牙哥教師隊在韓國的首爾進行海外戰然後明年呢他們已經確定了在洛杉磯稻妻跟芝加哥小熊會在日本的東京那我是相當期待啦說按照這個台灣的這個棒球的實力"},{"start":24553.93,"end":24576.188,"text":"這個2026年不知道有沒有機會能夠邀請美國職棒大聯盟來到我們台灣台北大巨蛋來做這個海外的開幕賽如果大巨蛋的營運團隊跟我們的職棒協會都能夠有這樣的想法那需要政府來做後盾的話我覺得我們可以連成起來變成一個黃金鐵三角向國際來爭取增加台灣在國際上的能見度"},{"start":24576.768,"end":24594.68,"text":"因為打這種海外賽其實像韓國他們有爭取到其實我認為我們台灣也可以爭取到畢竟我們也有台灣的選手也曾經在不論是美國職棒隊都打過其實都有這個機會能夠邀請他們來我希望朝著2026年邀請他們來台灣打這個海外賽好不好"},{"start":24595.887,"end":24611.161,"text":"我們一起去加油今天我們是討論台電的追加預算其實我看你們的報告我們波波台電在113年今年已經要追加預算1000億"},{"start":24613.402,"end":24630.687,"text":"明年我們公務預算也編了一千億因為台電有虧損虧損的理由大部分你講說是在這個惡霧戰爭我們買燃油的成本就提高了我們願意給他補助其實也是要降低民生用電他的條幅"},{"start":24631.889,"end":24652.217,"text":"所以說第一個我們減少累積的虧損也避免台電負債高於資產發生公司法上面的破綻第二個減少舉債也會減輕利息的負擔我看了一下資料2023年以來政府已經編列經費為台電增資了2500億元實收資本額提高到5800億元"},{"start":24659.261,"end":24659.582,"text":"台電持續虧損2023年撲補500億"},{"start":24668.629,"end":24681.035,"text":"2024年就是今年呢我們現在就要討論最佳預算1000億那明年我剛提過公務預算有1000億但是我看了一下台電的決算報告在111年、112年呢仍然是虧損111年虧損了2265億112年虧損了1985億但是我又看到這個今年度113年度這個台電的預算還有實際虧損的情況我發現"},{"start":24698.046,"end":24723.42,"text":"好像有稍微好轉如果按照全年前三季累積的話預算盈虧分配數累積應該是負的1338.8億但是呢按照這個季報的實際盈虧呢這個前三季累積呢是縮小到這個278.3億在第三季的時候有賺了323.4億元"},{"start":24726.461,"end":24745.712,"text":"查了一下在第三季有賺盈餘的原因第一個是國際油價緩和下降第二個是適度調整工業用電的價格第三7、8、9下月的用電費率比較高所以我就要請教一下院長"},{"start":24747.414,"end":24769.649,"text":"如果按照這個這個季報的實際盈虧的情況來看的話全年累積的這個這個這個金額虧損的情況應該不會到這個你們預算就是本來這個預算的盈虧分配數到1887億那你們有算過說到了這個第四季出來之後全年累積大概虧損的情況是怎麼樣"},{"start":24772.062,"end":24794.494,"text":"如果加上這個最佳預算算在內的話如果不算在內啦因為接下來還不知道會不會進去啦如果不算在內的話可能就沒有這麼樂觀的數字啦那大概多少勒還是我記得是四五百億左右吧就是四五百億四五百億那還是比這個預算的這個盈虧分配數1887還要再低就對了因為我們今年還是有經過十月份的調整"},{"start":24802.459,"end":24828.796,"text":"這個電價 那這個調整也很感謝用電大戶調整的速度 幅度是幾乎是我們反映成本的一個狀況所以會比較彌補以前這個成本不足的虧損那所以大概你說 院長說大概全年的這個實際上的盈虧大概還是會到四五百億就對了我們都減少這個一千億我們的將會虧損大概五百六十億左右"},{"start":24829.397,"end":24841.788,"text":"五百六十億左右那所以如果說這個一千餘的追加預算通過之後應該會有一個比較好的但是不會因此而滯滿我覺得這個還是因為補貼的政策不是長久之計剛有提到說這個"},{"start":24845.672,"end":24865.105,"text":"利息因為我們這個利息我看每一度的成本利息支出都偏高根據110年的決算這個利息支出是佔2%到了113年9月利息支出每一度的成本裡面有0.1247是佔利息支出比例是3.42%"},{"start":24866.226,"end":24886.943,"text":"那從利息支出從0.0811年的0.08到113年的0.12其實是成長了將近50%所以我想請教一下院長就是有沒有辦法減少利息的支出那當然我們撥補預算就會減少利息的支出啦那有沒有辦法再降低每一度這個發電成本讓它再更低一點"},{"start":24888.362,"end":24902.823,"text":"降低利息因為利息過去這幾年它也有利率的調整再來就是剛剛我們所提到的臺電如果虧損繼續擴大的話它的信用平比會降低可能對銀行端來看就會比較有調高利率的可能那"},{"start":24904.117,"end":24919.797,"text":"剛剛已經有委員建議我們應該朝向公股的行庫去做一些比較優惠性的利率的使用那這個部分的貸款我想台電跟我們的公股行庫應該一對一去做一些努力啦那至於說發電成本的降低"},{"start":24920.177,"end":24946.802,"text":"未來我們可能用三個方面第一個那就是我們採購像採購這個煤等等它過去有長期但我們希望能夠更靈活的運用這個契約第二個是就是這樣的資金的靈活運用調度可以減少利息跟其他的支出第三個當然希望台電內控上做人事的有效的管理雖然他人事現在非常的辛苦但是我覺得在做有效的管理一定可以再從人事成本上再做合理的調整"},{"start":24948.379,"end":24974.042,"text":"台電的虧損也不是說一定會這樣持續發生下去那我是希望說按照院長剛才所提示的這個三個方向好好去做不然你看今年我們在討論追加預算那其實明年也就變了一千億那明年來看政府稅收可能還是有但是如果說遇到一些情況比如說整體的經濟情勢受到影響或是說有哪一些地方情勢比較不穩"},{"start":24974.702,"end":24987.933,"text":"那讓我們這個購明的成本又增加那一樣台電又會遇到今年一樣的問題啦那我希望說這個問題不要重複的重複的再發生受國際因素的影響很大那我們盡量努力把它降低到影響讓它減少"},{"start":24989.975,"end":25012.769,"text":"那再請教一下院長我來自新北市那我給這個院長看一個歷史的資料在2019年8月的時候侯友宜當時是新北市市長當然現在還是啦當時他還沒有要選總統所以他是怎麼講的呢他講說核四是假議題因為燃料棒都不在了他這個是在回應我們現在的院長當時候的國民黨的這個總統的參選人韓國瑜"},{"start":25018.284,"end":25029.729,"text":"當時國民黨總統參選韓國瑜提出重啟核四這個議題但是新北市長侯友就說核四是假議題因為藍料棒都不在了這是2019年8月的時候隔天他又再講"},{"start":25030.749,"end":25047.584,"text":"這個沒有能力處理核廢料就沒有資格用核電因為他那時候沒有要選總統我認為他講話比較實在那這兩句話我請教一下院長核四是假議題嗎因為燃料棒都不在了第二個沒有能力處理核廢料就沒有資格用核電這樣的講法是非常理性的"},{"start":25051.806,"end":25067.076,"text":"非常理性的好 那我再問一下這個我們賴總統的這個核能政策其實院長都清楚了第一個核一、核二、核三除一是根據法律至於核四重啟與否呢因為已經經過公投了所以沒有重不重啟的這個問題了"},{"start":25068.277,"end":25094.326,"text":"好那所以呢合適商轉公投不通過之後呢合適呢就沒有重啟的問題只有長指後續如何運用的問題那我查了一下經濟部對合適的一個三大處理原則第一個啦說跟這個在地鄉親溝通第二個保持多元開放選項第三個呢這個因應再生能源發展的需求讓合適資產價值極大化這三個那但是我要請教一下院長這個第一個"},{"start":25096.55,"end":25110.277,"text":"目前的核四的這個這個地幕還是屬於核能電廠的用地那既然這個核四已經沒有要重啟沒有去運轉的話地幕有沒有機會來做變更這很多鄉親的期待"},{"start":25111.258,"end":25137.689,"text":"目前我想整個社會討論的空間應該還不至於讓我們有馬上去做這樣變更地幕的努力可是你現在核四不會再用了啊是不會再用但是社會上還是有一些討論的議題嘛那如果說我們能夠取得最大的共識就是核四這個議題讓它不會再發生的話那應該就這個土地的合理使用讓它活化或者做其他更有效益的用途我們才能進到這個方面來談"},{"start":25138.029,"end":25154.559,"text":"那所以長期來講這地幕是不是要做變更如果未來有草這樣的發展絕對是要進行變更而且對很多的土地的損害當時的損害政府也應該有所考慮那第二個就是說那有沒有機會轉做其他的發電廠或是其他的用途來做規劃"},{"start":25156.466,"end":25173.369,"text":"也不排除啦但是這個還是技術層面的問題啦我這個是跟著政策在走喔就政策大方向決定了如果今天核四不重啟了核四不用了然後接下來就要處理說地幕怎麼去做處理接下來再處理說那地幕處理完之後要變成什麼樣的用地啊"},{"start":25173.829,"end":25193.957,"text":"我認為他如果有做其他的公共的用途的話那也要跟周遭的居民跟地主好好的溝通因為大家忍受了數十年來那個地方現在這個現況我們還要做跟原來徵收墓地不一樣的使用我們必須要履行過一定的程序才可以核四工程費用2838億目前列為資產那這些設備資產要如何去處理呢我們會讓設備這個價值最大化財務損失最小化"},{"start":25203.746,"end":25204.002,"text":"呃"},{"start":25249.678,"end":25251.72,"text":"謝謝李昆成委員的質詢謝謝卓院長、經濟部長的備詢接下來我們請登記第14位張志倫委員質詢院長"},{"start":25280.037,"end":25287.97,"text":"各位官員、各位委員大家晚安是不是有請我們左院長麻煩再請左院長備詢"},{"start":25298.181,"end":25320.567,"text":"參議員好好 院長好今天是討論有關於特別預算要撥補一千億給台電來去做虧損的減少首先我想要請教院長有關在114年度的中央總預算增加了非常多就是我們的中央水電費有增加18億總金額的漲幅達到22%"},{"start":25325.228,"end":25351.761,"text":"本席覺得這個漲幅非常的不合理因為跟我們大家所知道的政府過去以來一直在講的節電的這個政策有相對應的違反跟院長報告一下過去從109年到122年過去政府有一個節能的政策我們中央政府跟地方政府大家同心協力之下有節能10%"},{"start":25353.742,"end":25377.105,"text":"以及在賴清德總統在今年的10月份10月24號有主持一個國家氣候變遷對策委員會第二次委員會議也特別提出要深度節能意思就是說希望說政府帶頭來節能然後讓我們的民間的業者跟民間的好朋友大家一起來節能可是沒有想到這個中央政府總預算的時候"},{"start":25377.865,"end":25396.221,"text":"水電費大幅增編22%我覺得非常不合理因為兩年度的預算增加22%相對來講不合理所以本席是不是可以請教我們院長我認為應該增加的22%應該減列12%我覺得增幅在10%應該對這兩年來講預算編列比較合理因為預算兩年如果增幅達到22%相對顯然不合理院長支持嗎"},{"start":25406.39,"end":25431.356,"text":"希望能夠清楚跟委員報告也請委員能夠理解因為累積過去的過去電費的調整我們今年中央政府總預算編的這些增加的幅度其中針對電費調整所遮壓經費就達到12.37億另外還有一些辦公廳設的增加新設它也增加到1.88億另外過去我們有一些"},{"start":25432.536,"end":25461.456,"text":"優惠電價現在回饋到目的世界主管機關這個也有1.13億所以並不是浪費我跟委員報告一句話絕對沒有浪費節能是不可放棄的目標深度節能是政府現在推向民間跟政府共同要去追求的因為過去以來政府都有很大的節能的措施不管是節能設備的這些優惠以及賴清德總統主要就是要推動未來政府節能可是我們一邊要民眾要政府做節能"},{"start":25462.436,"end":25485.087,"text":"另一方面又大增我們的水電費22%增加了18億所以這個漲幅所以我跟委員報告有三種一種是電費的調整一種是辦公廳設的增加一種是以前的優惠現在回到目的世界主管機關所以這個都是造成電費的增加沒錯 所以我認為增幅22%就是預算編列有問題因為一般來講預算編列不可能超過10%"},{"start":25486.298,"end":25501.496,"text":"經委員在審查過程當中再詳細的看看這些數字是不是我們扶持的才表現出來所以我的意思是說預算編列要逐步去編列不能一次編列這麼多所以本席還是要建議院長未來預算編列不能一次增加22%"},{"start":25502.597,"end":25521.731,"text":"因為我們以前緩漲的時代我們都吸收了這次是把它比較具體的反映出來所以這個電費調整所需的經費達到12億這個請委員能夠支持未來預算在編列不應該有漲幅20%這是一個很不好的先例所以未來只要是行政黨委員說原因我已經跟委員講了有這三點"},{"start":25523.353,"end":25551.091,"text":"新增的聽測有優惠的調整回到目前的主管機關還有就是電費的調整已經有三種了不是沒有目的沒有原因就增加電費的希望委員在審查的時候能夠細部的去看看這些的數字再給我們指教第二點我要請教院長的就是說在今年度有週刊報導就是有關於綠能蟑螂的問題"},{"start":25552.652,"end":25568.061,"text":"那就是有關於我們現在大家最重視的我們國外的一些合法優秀的優質的這個綠能的廠商他在媒體中來去哭訴說他在做綠能的時候怎麼樣做都不對不僅有這個地方黑道勢力"},{"start":25569.242,"end":25595.798,"text":"來去做打壓地方民意代表來做打壓的一個狀況而且他認為給錢也不對不給錢也不對然後還把這樣的事情來告洋狀告到歐盟去了請問這個院長對於打擊這個綠能蟑螂您的態度是如何我們在幾個月前就成立了相當多的一個專案其中我們對於綠能犯罪我們有四個原則第一個過程要透明"},{"start":25596.365,"end":25610.415,"text":"再來整個的程序要簡化再來我們設立一個檢舉的平台另外最後一個是地方跟中央政府要合作來檢舉打擊不法有決心要打這些綠能蟑螂可是我在看這個週刊的報導裡面"},{"start":25612.156,"end":25630.344,"text":"有一點我非常質疑阿他說有中央及民意代表意思就是立法委員拍胸脯保證說他可以來處理那我請教院長有沒有知悉是哪一位中南部的立法委員拍胸脯保證說可以處理院長有沒有了解到相關的這個內容"},{"start":25631.907,"end":25649.251,"text":"我們都知道最近幾個月以來在追查綠能犯罪的過程當中各級的民意代表各機關的首長都有一些涉案那麼也都相當多的人現在已經在司法當中了有掌握到是哪一位"},{"start":25649.791,"end":25661.384,"text":"立法委員拍胸脯保證說他能處理嗎為什麼要問院長這個問題就是我不希望連院長您的高度您是主動要打擊綠能蟑螂的連這些事情變成國際新聞有歐洲議會的議員來到台灣都在講這些事情"},{"start":25667.31,"end":25690.15,"text":"而且這個立法委員是可以對中央的預算來去做審查的如果連院長都被蒙蔽那我相信要打擊綠能蟑螂這些事情非常難做到我再請教院長你有沒有掌握到是否是週刊報導屬實院長有掌握到到底是哪一位的立法委員中南部的立法委員在地的立法委員拍胸脯保證他一定可以"},{"start":25691.216,"end":25713.917,"text":"來處理兩點跟委員報告我們現在能夠討論的就是已經在起訴或是收押或是交保這些對象因為他已經公諸於社會有沒有這樣的事情至於那些個案我並不能去指揮也不能去了解我只要請教院長有沒有掌握到的確有這樣的事情對週刊的這件事情我們當時看到這個報紙我們也覺得很心痛我已經正式要求"},{"start":25714.818,"end":25739.336,"text":"法務部跟檢調單位能夠去處理那他們已經跟週刊也取得聯繫他們跟週刊取得聯繫週刊基於保護當事人並沒有透露但是我們已經從一個角度來調查所以院長有沒有掌握你覺得我應該在這裡這樣講這個就是對司法那我想院長的現而答案我大概已經了解了不應該在這裡講"},{"start":25741.658,"end":25767.731,"text":"全力的來追索當中那院長有沒有預計大概什麼時候會你會掌握說到底有沒有人拍胸脯保證沒有一個人能夠掌握但是一定要在最快的速度用盡所有的力量因為這是社會大家所詬病的一件事情因為大家都詬病而且鬧到國際上的新聞很多這個歐盟來的議員也覺得台灣的這個綠能的環境已經不是變成不是乾淨能源是一個非常骯髒的一個就那個職業的環境拜託這個院長來協助好嗎"},{"start":25770.552,"end":25795.853,"text":"我們一定全力來偵辦好那再來我要請教一下今天討論最主要的一個問題就是有關於這個未來要撥補的這個經費要從如何而來那我還記得那時候我們財政部長莊部長我今年在問他說這個今年的政府總稅收到底有沒有超收的問題當時一開始問他他說好像沒有超收結果今天最近的這個資料顯示是有超抽這個4000億的一個狀況"},{"start":25799.181,"end":25801.562,"text":"那當然我對張部長之前的這個財務預測當然是還是要打一個問號好像對國家的這個財政"},{"start":25807.894,"end":25835.407,"text":"稅收的預計很不明確那是不是我們表達大家有誤會我想莊部長一直都沒有這樣的說法我們始終認為今年的實際徵收數還是會多於預算數這個從下半年就開始有這樣但是只是不知道它的數額會有多大而已總覺得沒有好沒關係我要請教就是說現在補貼台電的這個錢這1000億我希望說這個錢未來如果有撥補了以後是不是因為現在"},{"start":25836.621,"end":25851.838,"text":"就這個經濟部的想法是不是民生的電價還沒有到達這個未來的預期那撥補了這一千億我可以幫全民來請益這補了一千億以後台電是不是就可以在未來的兩三年之內不要再漲民生電價這筆錢要專款專業有沒有機會"},{"start":25854.581,"end":25876.075,"text":"雖然各種因素尤其國際因素很多但是穩定民生是我們最優先的原則現在如此未來也是如此一直撥補的話然後民生又漲電價那撥補的目的到底在哪裡以前的增資有用於更新設備那正式當然是用一些補貼政策所以沒有辦法承諾嗎這一千億如果沒有辦法承諾的話我們如何來撥補"},{"start":25877.367,"end":25903.592,"text":"報告委員我們已經多次的在跟委員報告也就是說電價的部分不是有這個電價這個審議委員會他們在做決定可是部長我要講的我們沒辦法去對電價審議委員會去做審查我們只能諮詢跟面對行政院長跟郭部長你們的態度非常重要我們是會努力的去把這個環境做好"},{"start":25904.252,"end":25919.938,"text":"把這個公司經營好這個是我們不變的這個原則所以但是電價的決定調不調還是有審議委員而且審議委員他們是專家社會專家然後各個的群體的代表他們有他們的考量"},{"start":25920.498,"end":25948.062,"text":"因為我現在需要這筆錢來改善臺電的財務狀況那因為我們現在如果不改善財務的狀況剛才有很多委員也告訴我們說你這個利息付得太高了是不是利息跟銀行在協商可以調低一點各方面委員給我們的這個指導我們都會努力去做謝謝委員給我們這樣的一個提示那我想我們會全力以赴啦"},{"start":25948.422,"end":25950.885,"text":"市長你都上台了我來請教一下上午有我們總召請問你的問題"},{"start":25961.363,"end":25981.821,"text":"我們總召早上我們這個總召早上有請問你就是說有關於這個您個人的資產規劃個人的問題不適合在這邊談好不好個人的問題不在不需要在國會因為我這個因為你本身已經擔任我們的財那個財經濟部長了所以他認為說你本身你個人從業的"},{"start":25983.035,"end":26010.971,"text":"委員我已經講過了我也澄清了我所有的事情都是依法、遵法、否法所以這種不實的指控我會立場上面講得非常清楚我不允許人家在這邊汙衊我這個是我對各位委員的請求我們應該要就事論事你不能夠隨便造故事啊"},{"start":26012.459,"end":26026.151,"text":"這個是發生的實際狀況因為等於說19億的資產在你的資產作價以後到私人的投資公司以後它的價值就已經到達8千多萬而且這樣子很明顯就是讓資產"},{"start":26027.877,"end":26051.722,"text":"張面上看起來是有縮水的一個狀況請問這個我是違反哪一條法律你告訴我這是觀感的問題所以我要請教院長觀感跟這個觀感每個人不一樣嗎院長你知道這件事情嗎你支持這樣的做法嗎我們在徵詢部會首長之前都會詢問很多的問題關於他個人的財產要公佈"},{"start":26053.495,"end":26074.715,"text":"現在是有一些國籍的問題要處理等等我想所有的部委首長都一定在現有法令法規的限制底下完成所有該做的事情那部長他本身也是一個獨立的自然人他當然可以處分他必要的這個財產等等只要他在當公務的時候他沒有違背我們的法律我想我們從這裡只能從這裡來監督"},{"start":26075.856,"end":26090.545,"text":"好沒有我只是要給部長一個解釋的機會所以部長也不要生氣謝謝委員我非常感謝你讓我有這個機會在這邊講那還有什麼要補充嗎我只是對其中一句話叫做以公謀私這四個字我非常的反對"},{"start":26092.266,"end":26117.823,"text":"我來當公務人員我沒有其他的這個思維我只是要為這個國家做事我謝謝這個院長能夠提拔我但是對於所謂的以公謀私或者對於任何沒法的執政我沒有辦法接受謝謝部長我有給你時間解釋了那我想院長的也有跟你請益過了我覺得未來就是看"},{"start":26118.91,"end":26131.739,"text":"這個後續的發展有沒有違反相關的法令那就是要看後續的發展那最後一個問題就是要請教這個部長跟院長有關於這個核能的問題大家都非常的關心今天很多委員也提出來"},{"start":26132.421,"end":26160.283,"text":"就是說目前核三廠已經在這個稅休的一個狀況核三廠是否有可能重啟那以及核四廠的問題大家都說如果核四廠未來沒有這個政府的政策就是核電沒有要重啟的話那核一核二核三核四廠將近要3000億的這些資產是不是這次應該也要跟全民來解釋一下是否他未來的這個儲置成本到底未來這些的資產的價值還剩多少"},{"start":26161.906,"end":26164.648,"text":"以及對台電等等的這些相關的影響應該一併來跟國人來做說明"},{"start":26168.41,"end":26193.704,"text":"我想我們這個核電是不是重啟我們基本上還是三個原則比如說全民有共識然後核廢料可以處理安全無虞所以這三個原則如果都能夠處理的話我想我們不排除所有的包括新的核能我請教一下部長的部分其實我覺得最嚴重的問題就是核廢料的問題核廢料的部分現在政府要怎麼處理"},{"start":26195.68,"end":26219.55,"text":"我們現在在觀察世界上這麼多重啟的或者再開的他們怎麼處理有沒有再明確一點大概要怎麼處理好 謝謝張志倫委員質詢謝謝卓院長 經濟部長貝勳"},{"start":26225.731,"end":26254.534,"text":"接下來請登記第15位 邱志偉委員質詢謝謝院長 呃 是不是請行政院卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":26265.226,"end":26294.854,"text":"陳委員好 院長好 辛苦了我想這個理性問政在國會是一個國會議員基本的素養無理指控有沒有一個國會議員的資格所以我常常要理性問政不非理性的指控每天都要地理自己希望台灣的國會素質能夠一天比一天更好"},{"start":26295.84,"end":26323.778,"text":"謝謝委員我也希望委員在監督行政院所有的政務人員都是一個委員的職責但是提出各種的問題要讓當事人可以有充分的時間來回答說明跟解釋而且要理直氣和彼此互相尊重雖然是監督關係但是一定要基於理性基於事實那不管是行政部門或者立法部門我想不是廣義的政府"},{"start":26324.935,"end":26349.433,"text":"政府是為國家為人民服務嘛所以我認為啊為官之道善於人仁義的人何謂仁也就是愛人嘛就是善待別人我們對政府這個官員的要求第一個能力要好體力要好但是EQ更要好"},{"start":26350.936,"end":26376.649,"text":"因為你的領導統計很重要你把台灣 把國家帶往富強之路還是這個折磨你的部署成就你個人的公民在於有沒有人 仁義的人所以很難過這個勞動力發展署的事件一個優秀的公務人員失去了性命這是人造成的"},{"start":26377.935,"end":26405.844,"text":"就是你圍觀沒有以人作為你的根本核心所以我認為這個不是個案問題這可能變成一種在普遍存在於這個各個公部門的問題可能變成一個通案是很多沒有被爆發出來是有些有反應的卻沒有得到妥適的就是這個處理所以不要把他視為個案要全面去檢視"},{"start":26408.486,"end":26435.609,"text":"職場零霸零零容忍職場零霸零特別是公部門這件事情發生在勞動部勞動部是管勞動力權益勞工權益勞動力職場的良善當然是勞動部主要的工作跟華論之前還有外交部還有台電也發生過類似的問題還有海生館"},{"start":26436.789,"end":26461.549,"text":"所以普遍每一個政府部門都會面對這個問題都會出現這個問題所以我們不能視為個案全面去檢視到底是哪一個機制有問題把它彌補特別你要選擇一個政府官員你不能只考慮他的能力、他的體力他EQ也是很重要他如果對待他的部署以人代人"},{"start":26464.188,"end":26489.428,"text":"報告委員我想總統能夠推動他的治國理念所憑藉的就是執政團隊所有的成員甚至我也認為包括大院所有的委員我們一起把國家推向好的地方所以這就是國家的資產同樣的部會所長要能夠去貫徹執行他的想法跟政策所有的公務人員都是他的手跟腳甚至他的眼睛員工是可貴的資產講到白是報"},{"start":26492.07,"end":26518.992,"text":"這薄厚的提示要透過這些人才能去推動所以應該把它當作自己一樣和我自己的家人子民一樣同樣在工作上雖然有位階工作有輕重但是人跟人的對待平等尊重互重這絕對是必要的那這件事情我想讓所有的公務人員跟我們部會所長要深深的讓他們當作一個告誡那我也會遲遲的來提醒大家如何跟"},{"start":26520.117,"end":26543.935,"text":"我們的同袍跟我們的屬下長官來相處這個是一個非常高深的學問要把它面對這個問題了解問題出在哪裡提出解決問題的方案謝謝院長第二個下一個問題請教就是央行楊建隆總裁他建議具體建議我們應該在這個川普政府上台之後要加強對美國的採購以及投資"},{"start":26545.507,"end":26565.897,"text":"對於這部分當然我們對美國的貿易的順差高500億對不對所以這部分會變成未來這個川普政府有可能以這個貿易順差當作這個貿易制裁的一個手段所以楊金榮總裁才以楊桑榮總裁的身份去對政府提出這個建言"},{"start":26567.174,"end":26590.749,"text":"現在政府相關部會包括經濟部、國民事業還是其他國防部對美國的整體的採購項目有沒有整體的戰略性盤點或者有沒有針對這問題再做相關的研議是的 報告委員在美國大選之後我們確實有數次的會議各種型態針對未來的美台關係如果在現在基礎上能夠更為加強"},{"start":26591.909,"end":26612.859,"text":"但是各個部會都會提出自己的看法剛剛委員所提的央行他應該是從匯率以及這個貿易的順差逆差這方面來看因為雙邊的貿易如果能夠平等才能是長久之計啊如果懸殊太大的話那會變成另外一種不公平但是其他的部會也會從個別自己部會的需要來提出需求"},{"start":26613.419,"end":26634.444,"text":"那麼總統也好或是行政院也好我們就衡量所有的狀況我們選擇一樣對台灣最有利的政策跟方式也能取得美國的同意跟理解互相來做更深入的合作所以我請教過農業部長他當然針對幾個品項他有相關的他的看法在未來可能會加強這個採購的部分經濟部的部分"},{"start":26636.022,"end":26661.378,"text":"經濟部的部分未來有沒有考慮在美國在哪些品項的投資或者是採購我希望說維持台美關係固然重要但是也不要因此破壞了或減損了台灣產業的競爭力報告委員這一部分我們都有做出一些規劃"},{"start":26663.01,"end":26678.95,"text":"原則上我們會保留重點在台灣但是因為離開了台灣其實我們要整合也不是那麼簡單所以我們會把最穩定的可以成功的項目才往外去"},{"start":26680.531,"end":26702.938,"text":"自己講有點抽象有沒有比較具體譬如說大家現在比較關心的說台積電會不會變成美積電然後會不會掏空我跟委員報告半導體是特別特別的困難他要移地生產光是從新竹要移到台中都很難台中要移到我們高雄更難但是我們都克服了因為我們在國內"},{"start":26704.258,"end":26729.653,"text":"但是你到海外去光是文化生活各方面都有困難那你用美國的美國在地的這一些人員他還要來台灣訓練不然的話我們光是設備去即便面對川普強大的壓力我們的這個半導體我們還是會跟流台灣對那這一部分的話我想跟委員報告我就任以來我曾經提出來一個構念"},{"start":26730.453,"end":26752.863,"text":"叫做境外關內也就是說幫助我們台灣的產業今天在這個台灣的境外可能在美國的境內我們幫助他讓他能夠落地非常的順利第二個我們幫他爭取不要重複課稅然後幫助他在在讓他在譬如說美國或者是哪個其他的國家"},{"start":26753.464,"end":26776.656,"text":"在落地的時候更順利這細節明天再跟部長請教那今天的這個台電的部分我們AI的電力需求到2028會增加8倍8倍那個電力的需求量之大現在這個台電好像已經暫停桃園以北所有電池都是在中部、南部"},{"start":26778.024,"end":26799.714,"text":"南電北送南電中送中電北送這是一個常態也是目前的狀況未來如果說這個算力中心一再的增加那電力需求勢必要倍數成長這種狀況目前現有以及未來兩三年的我們所謂的電網架構是不是可以滿足這些算力的需求"},{"start":26800.82,"end":26817.235,"text":"報告委員如果您剛才講的是因為用在AI這個領域裡面它會增加8倍但是我們整個的整體的用電的這個量以我們現在來看AI的部分還是屬於綠電的部分我們目前看起來到2030年"},{"start":26818.616,"end":26839.633,"text":"我們現在所有的進度還是在控制之內2030年之前所需要的綠電應該我們是可以達標的那我們現在努力的是說2028年以後當AI這個booming開始再拉上來的時候我們很擔心它的這個需求太快漲"},{"start":26840.353,"end":26851.781,"text":"所以我們現在全力以赴所以你有信心可以滿足未來我們電力能夠負擔這個AI電力需求是好 沒問題好 接著中油啊 也是年年虧損"},{"start":26853.117,"end":26870.181,"text":"台電可以用國家預算撥補在1、2、1、3、1、4我們都總共撥補將近五千億對不對五千億從112年到1、1、3、1、4不管是用獎補助或者用投資的方式大概五千億將對台電大家會覺得這個會不會我們重電輕油"},{"start":26875,"end":26904.76,"text":"我可以說為什麼台電可以增資政府可以撥補台電的中油財富狀況也不好呢未來這個天然氣的部分也一直上漲也沒有降下來這種狀況它沒辦法虧損它撥補繼續再擴大就可能會破產但為什麼我想請教一下為什麼中油不能讓它增資或者政府不能用撥補的方式像台電一樣來協助中油"},{"start":26906.601,"end":26916.248,"text":"報告委員中油的虧損其實還是因為政策上那第二個他有一個我們希望大院能夠幫忙的就是說能夠取消啞鈴最低價"},{"start":26917.711,"end":26944.782,"text":"我們現在有一個法令在上面就是說我們中油的油價是整個亞洲最便宜的這個現在其實是不應該存在的為什麼 因為現在日幣啊因為這個匯率的問題所以它日幣貶成這個樣子所以對我們要現在做這個亞林水利價是有困難的那這個如果能夠拿掉我相信可以改善非常多中油的財務狀況同樣台電中油都是擔負政策目的啊"},{"start":26945.712,"end":26971.197,"text":"這個再跟委員補充一下中油他公司的負債比當然有一定的比例啦但是他逐年的這個虧損是比較輕微的因為他有每個禮拜有調漲的機制所以他就不會距離他的成本太高雖然我們有一些機制像剛剛部長所說啞鈴最低價的機制那未來他是不是可以取消掉不需要這種限制的話那中油的發展可以更多我希望能夠滾動檢討"},{"start":26973.337,"end":27000.566,"text":"你未來不要說未來兩三年都沒有對中有任何預算的這個撥補也好或者准許他增資也好我會重視一定要滾動檢討另外新創是總統非常重要的新創很多都是這個年輕人大概30歲到40歲他最缺少就是資本你資本的部分你要怎麼樣去讓他有低童基因讓他有獲利能力當然在相關的說服很重要這個財政部總統部長也在"},{"start":27002.086,"end":27030.657,"text":"這個部分草案條例大概這一次院版還沒有送來那我的版本大概已經放在那邊很久了我也希望說在這個會期能夠針對產創條例能夠修法特別是這23第10條第23之1、23之2、23之4我都有版本行政也都有版本但是還在預告期但我覺得相對於其他國家對新創產業的福祉太過保守"},{"start":27032.297,"end":27054.083,"text":"這個沒有辦法提供誘因也沒有辦法對這個新生產業提供實質的協助這有點可惜好 你看一下這個簡報裡面我的版本23之1跟廠方署的版本它們大概都差了三倍那這個個人投資新創底檢條件要把它放寬這有共識"},{"start":27055.305,"end":27071.722,"text":"那你放寬五年我覺得目前新創世界進行到八年比較多應該要進行到八年未來的這個投資門檻的上限應該從一百萬統一到五十萬這也是業界的需求也是大家的期待"},{"start":27073.134,"end":27101.026,"text":"那我不曉得院長是不是要產商條例目前修法的相關的樣態是 報告經濟部也報告國發會我們一直在討論這個事情那國發會 劉朱偉因為人在國外參加重要的會議這兩天已經回來了我們等他回來以後要做最後的盤整希望這個產商條例能夠也符合目前實際的需要但我也認為不要過度的保守才是我們對這些新創事業的一大鼓勵那院長我請一下財政部創部長"},{"start":27103.226,"end":27131.266,"text":"我跟財政部討論過好多次財政部互稅署他的立場一直非常非常的堅持這個部分這個我想我們張部長你也了解反而是產發組立場可以比較彈性對於我提案的版本大概也可以慢慢的理解對產業界的聲音比較理解但是那個互稅署對這部分一直堅持不退讓"},{"start":27133.218,"end":27142.691,"text":"這個我想請教剛才院長是說這個應該要更不要太保守應該要更積極政務總部長您的看法是跟委員報告我想這個部分我們還會再做討論是"},{"start":27146.605,"end":27164.679,"text":"討論很久了你們立場財政部有他財政部的立場經濟部有他發展的方向也因為這樣子我們才必須一個政委來當中做協調那到最後也必須要我來看看這個狀況我們做最後的決定那我覺得要讓產業能夠健全的發展是比較優先的考量"},{"start":27175.149,"end":27197.391,"text":"謝謝邱志偉委員的諮詢謝謝卓院長及部會首長的備詢報告院會我們113年度中央政府總預算追加預算的諮詢均已詢答完畢謝謝卓院長以及相關部會首長今天的列席答詢我們現在做以下決定一"},{"start":27198.393,"end":27225.88,"text":"一百一三年度將政府總預算追加預算案交財政委員會會同有關委員會審查二將各委員會發言記錄及書面質詢含送行政院請就未答覆部分予以書面答覆三已提出之書面質詢尚未登載公報者一律補刊我們現在散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}