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字幕組"},{"start":352.605,"end":352.991,"text":"主席"},{"start":1835.396,"end":1839.457,"text":"出席委員與主法定人數現在開會請議事人員先讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1850.734,"end":1855.195,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議議事錄．時間113年11月14日星期四﹐93分至13時32分﹐地點群選樓801會議室﹐出席委員、陳委員、趙姿等14人﹐"},{"start":1865.959,"end":1888.943,"text":"列席委員賴、委員世保等18人、列席官員、衛生福利部政務次長林靜怡及環境部部長彭啟明等相關人員、主席黃兆吉委員秀芳報告事項一、宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二、繼續處理衛生福利部韓衛113年度中央政府總預算分別檢送食品藥物管理署決議一至三及決議四預算凍結書面報告案兩案"},{"start":1891.964,"end":1899.768,"text":"決定均同意動之並提報院會．邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況．並備質詢本次會議業務報告及討論事項綜合詢答由環境部部長報告及說明後委員陳昭芝等23人提出質詢均經環境部部長及各相關主管等及其答覆委員楊耀及張雅琳所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報決定一報告及詢答完畢"},{"start":1916.355,"end":1925.645,"text":"2.委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者,請相關期關於2週內已書面答覆。委員令要求期限者,從期鎖定。討論事項1."},{"start":1925.645,"end":1930.911,"text":"審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部主管公務及基金預算"},{"start":1931.611,"end":1956.797,"text":"二、審查環境部含送環境資源研究發展基金會等四家財團法人114年度預算書案以上討論事項軍警詢答決議一、說明及詢答完畢二、中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部主管公務及基金預算及環境部含送環境資源研究發展基金會等四家財團法人114年度預算書案令則其繼續審查。宣讀完畢"},{"start":1963.272,"end":1966.856,"text":"請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處?沒有。議事錄確定。本日會議的議程為邀請勞動部部長、"},{"start":1978.598,"end":2000.754,"text":"全旭部、國防部、內政部警政署、內政部消防署、行政院人事行政總處、考試院、公務人員保障及培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會就職場霸凌防治與處理作業進行專題報告．"},{"start":2005.437,"end":2026.545,"text":"並備質詢現在介紹在場委員及列席官員第一位是陳昭芝委員再來是陳清輝委員我們介紹行政官員"},{"start":2028.015,"end":2044.625,"text":"我們勞動部部長何佩珊何部長勞動力發展署來過5號蔡孟良署長職安署署長周子蓮勞動關係司司長王厚偉勞動條件及就業平等司司長黃維琛人事處處長"},{"start":2057.219,"end":2084.28,"text":"江碧玲鄭豐處處長周志信全系部法規司司長雷成國安部常務次長楊基榮總督察室經濟督察處處長吳長峰"},{"start":2088.274,"end":2114.916,"text":"政治作戰局政戰綜合處處長張景泰法律事務司人權保障處處長余建昌人事參謀處長是人事管理處副處長盧志欽內政部警政署人事事主任許淑珍"},{"start":2118.598,"end":2143.146,"text":"督察室組長蕭詠卿內政部消防署副署長馮俊毅人事室主任鄭宏斌救災救護指揮中心科長翁世洋"},{"start":2148.01,"end":2172.84,"text":"行政院人事行政總處綜合規劃處處長陳月春考試院保訓中規處處長黃振榮公務人員保障及培訓委員會保障處處長黃秀琴教育部人事處處長王崇斌"},{"start":2175.899,"end":2203.325,"text":"資訊及科技教育師專門委員廖雙慶國家科學及技術委員會南部科學園區管理局主任秘書關嘉明衛福部心理健康師代理師長鄭淑欣外交部人事處處長黃立琳以上"},{"start":2208.28,"end":2208.48,"text":"主席"},{"start":2220.799,"end":2238.784,"text":"各位委員、各位記者朋友今天很感謝委員會邀請我來報告職場霸凌防治與處理作業那我要跟各位報告在勞動部主管的這個關於職場霸凌的法規呢"},{"start":2240.304,"end":2266.86,"text":"其實已經有執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引可是呢這是針對一般的民營企業也是針對適用我們勞基法的所有勞工那麼我想最近大家所關注的重點是在於我們的機關內部就是我們的公務體系那麼機關內部在這一點確實在這個法體系上面兩者是不一樣的"},{"start":2268.081,"end":2281.593,"text":"目前職場法適用於各業的工作者只有就政府機關具公務人員身份還有職場不法侵害預防的相關權益他必須優先適用公務人員保障法及公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法"},{"start":2284.18,"end":2306.91,"text":"所以比如像勞動部部本部我們也有針對這個依據這個法令我們建立了這個員工安全及衛生防護要點來保護本部裡面的員工有遭受霸凌的問題也因為這樣所以當然各界關心最近我們本部發生的北分暑同仁"},{"start":2308.335,"end":2332.574,"text":"離開的這樣不幸的事件那麼在這個事件上面我為什麼由勞動部本身來進行行政調查那麼我所組的外部專家我所組的委員會裡面的這樣委員會的組成也是參考我們員工安全及衛生防護要點的比例而有了外部專家"},{"start":2333.715,"end":2354.468,"text":"所以我在這一個調查裡面我的外部專家含兩位一位是臺北大學的法律系的郭林惠國老師他是長年的為各機關諮詢性評霸凌等專業的老師另一位是曾牧成心理智商師"},{"start":2356.09,"end":2357.431,"text":"這份報告我跟大家報告"},{"start":2375.726,"end":2390.973,"text":"這份報告是由我們的外部專家主導起草所以裡面的有些用語是專業用語或是專業的考慮比如大家所質疑的關於謝芬署長所謂目的良善這個問題"},{"start":2393.182,"end":2418.613,"text":"我要跟各位報告他其實只是專家們基於平衡並非認同謝芬署長的行為所以有這樣子的用語這一點要懇請大家可以諒解那麼是基於這一個專業敘述的需要那其次呢我也要跟各位報告我為什麼會進行這個調查報告"},{"start":2421.121,"end":2440.104,"text":"因為我想我來到勞動部我身為一個機關的領導者我當面對這麼重大的事情的時候我當然也可以採取我們一般政治作為上面關鍵的用粗暴的或者是用甩鍋的方式或斷尾求生的方式"},{"start":2441.56,"end":2450.948,"text":"那麼很快的把這件事結案掉但是我考慮到因為這是我們文官體制裡面的悲劇"},{"start":2452.543,"end":2479.9,"text":"那我想要從這裡面找出是不是我們這個官僚課程體制出了什麼問題而導致這樣的悲劇我想這個原因必須被找出來而且要釐清事實我才有辦法去確定責任的歸屬才能進行講成而即便是進行講成我也必須慎重因為就我一位政務官首長的權力"},{"start":2481.738,"end":2498.339,"text":"各位我並沒有直接停止文官的權利啊我必須要有事實理由跟根據所以這就是我為什麼要進行調查報告的原因那麼也許我們的調查報告有供各界檢視"},{"start":2501.033,"end":2523.294,"text":"每一位可能都有自己心目中所理解的真相那麼也許調查報告他在我們的外部整個的組成裡面我們跟各位報告在兩位外部專家的主導起草下我懇請各位可以相信他的專業性以及公平性以及客觀性因為專家們反覆討論"},{"start":2525.075,"end":2552.997,"text":"在裡面進行了非常多的資料的這樣子的分析所以才做出這樣的報告這是一份呕心瀝血的專案報告我想也是透過這樣的過程我希望能夠釐清我們官僚課程體制裡面也許比如像謝芬署長這樣的人他有他的惡可是這樣的惡是不是普遍存在於我們的課程官僚體制當中"},{"start":2555.461,"end":2572.354,"text":"就像德國哲學家漢拉厄倫所說的平庸的邪惡而這種惡也是導致悲劇發生的主要來源我懇請大家能夠透過這份報告來一同思考這個問題非常謝謝"},{"start":2580.574,"end":2607.404,"text":"好 謝謝部長那今天這個會議很重要啦那勞動部我們是要求企業、公司、行業要重視職場的健康那這次勞動部的員工死亡也證明了我們勞動部本身是有一點問題職場健康也有問題所以呢我們今天就要來探討然後各位不管"},{"start":2609.861,"end":2628.651,"text":"不同族群的委員都會來請教事實上我們在外交部、在科技部尤其國防部跟警政署也都有很多霸凌的事件所以我們今天也邀請各部會都來所以大家一同悉心的來檢討"},{"start":2631.837,"end":2656.967,"text":"那這個勞動部這一份報告我也看了那有的人不滿意有的人感同身受但是各有各的見解所以我們就好好的來討論討論那我們現在所有本次會議各項書面資料我們都會列入紀錄刊登公報永久保存我們現在就開始詢答所以以下宣告"},{"start":2657.927,"end":2670.42,"text":"本委員會的委員尋討時間8分鐘,列席委員4分鐘,10點半截止登記發言,如果有書面質詢請於散會前提出,預期不受理。11點半處理臨時提案"},{"start":2683.106,"end":2695.517,"text":"11點截止臨時提案的收案我們現在請第一位陳昭之委員發言謝謝主席 有請何部長部長請"},{"start":2702.311,"end":2716.244,"text":"部長昨天的北分署的霸凌案的調查記者會不但沒有釐清真相而且是讓這把火越燒越大因為這是一份前後矛盾邏輯不通關關相互的調查報告我為什麼這樣說呢請你先看簡報你們這個調查報告明確地寫出謝怡榮分署長有大聲咆哮怒罵或貶低同仁行為還導致多人求助身心科"},{"start":2726.354,"end":2755.874,"text":"他在下班會加上要求回訊息﹖如果沒有及時回覆﹖會遭責問接到關於自身的檢舉案﹖他竟然要去知道檢舉人是誰對於工作不滿意的同仁就進行排擠甚至要求員工在上班時間去參加這個跑路活動加速同事的工作時間還有退下那個屬下的公務人員的時候他就不斷的面商但是都不給明確的指示而且言語間夾帶貶低部長如果這是你你會覺得是霸凌嗎請回答是不是霸凌"},{"start":2756.414,"end":2775.107,"text":"你有沒有霸凌的感覺?當然,我們也承認這是霸凌,我們在報告裡也承認這是霸凌。部長,我繼續來,國防部職場霸凌,你剛剛說內部常見的不法侵害,你剛剛提到多使用勞工,不使用公務員,但我覺得基本上保護人民的精神跟原則是一樣的。"},{"start":2777.908,"end":2800.321,"text":"他在內部組織常見的不法侵害有五點其中你的報告裡面就自己寫出了三點刨銷入罵找出檢舉人要檢舉自己的人要求過高因為退文又不給明確的指示賦予不必要工作要人在上班時間去跑步以卸分署長的行為絕對是霸凌但是非常荒謬的調查報告明明列出了一大堆"},{"start":2801.381,"end":2821.442,"text":"謝芬署長長久以來的職場霸凌行為但對於這件輕生個案卻說無法證明該員工有遭受長官的職場霸凌請問這到底是什麼邏輯啊你根據這個調查的事實也推不出這樣的結論啊難道謝芬署長霸凌的對象很多很多人就是唯獨沒有這個輕生的這個員工嗎"},{"start":2823.829,"end":2838.13,"text":"我跟委員報告確實是如此部長你暫時先停下來你昨天在記者會上竟然說同人有職場霸凌的感受但這不是造成同人選擇結束生命的直接原因部長"},{"start":2839.792,"end":2862.187,"text":"這件事是你能斷定的嗎?你是檢調還是法官還是心理師?我認為沒有水落石注之前,部長你做這樣定調,說員工不是因為受霸凌而輕生了,非常的不恰當。部長,勞動部不要你重啟調查,我只要你重寫報告,你根據調查的事實寫出的報告是不符合的。我要求三天內重寫一份報告回來,根據事實就好,不用重啟調查。"},{"start":2864.141,"end":2871.157,"text":"部長你昨天說會將謝芬署長調離員單位並降為非主管職另外再送內部考機會請問這樣就結案了嗎?"},{"start":2874.244,"end":2877.486,"text":"還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案"},{"start":2897.376,"end":2918.534,"text":"縣察院已經啟動調查不是你有送縣察院嗎縣察院是主動是不是委員我必須先完成我內部的懲戒反正如果你不提我會先提我會提案的請不要忘記喔你說你的調查無題不要忘記洪仲秋案國防部自己調查說沒有違法行事結果呢送到檢調以後有沒有違法不要忘記洪仲秋的案子"},{"start":2919.495,"end":2940.138,"text":"好再來部長之前崔少哲指出2月份就有人投書謝宜蓉當時的王安班次長進行約談昨天記者會有媒體關心這個議題但是部長你輕輕說這件事不在調查範圍內草草帶過部長為什麼認為這個不在調查範圍呢今年2月王安班次長到底有沒有約談謝宜蓉"},{"start":2942.306,"end":2965.484,"text":"約談事由是什麼?談了什麼?部長你在這邊知道這件事嗎?您知道這件事嗎?我看了媒體的報導你回去看這樣子我今天要求在今天整體結束質詢之前我要求勞動部交出當時這份約談紀錄因為這是過去的事不是現在要做的事我今天就要今天整個質詢你現在部署都知道馬上去調資料我馬上要這個資料今天整個結束之前我要這份約談紀錄"},{"start":2971.188,"end":2982.337,"text":"這只是一個私下的談話,我們沒有任何記錄你可以折騰折,我要知道有沒有約談,約談的事由是什麼,至少我可以知道吧部長,其實貴黨的新北市議員已經在臉書貼出了這個北分署員工二月份的陳情書,你看這五點,你去看這個五點用供電養殖災,浪費這個電費暴漲,言語霸凌怒罵,濫用工廠濫發禮品"},{"start":2997.87,"end":3004.945,"text":"發報標案給特定友人,要求相關時間參加跑步活動,其中二跟五你在調查報告有,一、三、四我拿證據給你看"},{"start":3008.175,"end":3024.661,"text":"委員這部分我們都已經在立案調查了好再好好看謝宜龍分署長是去年3月1號到任的這個指北分署北分署同仁投訴他為自己喜好的植栽種植大量植栽而且用公費加裝這個我都還第一次聽了軌道燈24小時照明植物"},{"start":3027.862,"end":3037.394,"text":"做成電費大增,好,看一下,去年同期跟他上任後的同期,比起11年同期121萬年的用電度數,右邊,增加了15687度,電費暴漲近55萬,這算不算貪污?要不要一送檢調?"},{"start":3047.435,"end":3053.698,"text":"委員我們已經正風在調查這個案因為這是委員這也是剛剛我證據確實啊繼續看繼續看此外北分署111年並沒有連結政理喔過去沒有這個習慣喔但是謝宜龍112年到任之後過去兩年的三節政理金高達183萬他是不是濫發禮品做個人公關啊"},{"start":3078.783,"end":3093.848,"text":"根據2月份的陳情,謝怡榮分署長還要求這些禮盒的外包裝要有特別的設計並且都發包給同一個有人私交慎阻的設計師處理而且還不是從首長的特別費支出他是動用了北分署各種業務計劃的預算來支應包括至少兩項青年職能開發業務"},{"start":3103.658,"end":3115.917,"text":"促進特定對象就業服務部長這是在促進分署長有人的就業嗎這算不算圖利我們會立案調查圖利是要收押進去的喔"},{"start":3117.216,"end":3134.866,"text":"我們已經這已經都政風有在瞭解而且在調查中部長我最後想請你看一下這一張這個是你們勞動部勞動部的勞發署執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引上面就這張表格職場不法侵害行為自主檢核表"},{"start":3135.766,"end":3159.741,"text":"當中所附的表格主要是給僱主跟主管職務來檢核自己的行為是否涉及霸凌我昨天看了你的記者會之後你知道我馬上反省我自己我有沒有做過類似的事情所以所以請勞動部部長您自己還有今天在場的每一個主管官員今天在場這裡今天到場每一個主管官員我要求你們填一份這個東西"},{"start":3161.314,"end":3190.493,"text":"自己回去好好想想看你平日檢視自己平日的言行是否適當我不想讓這有悲劇的這個霸凌悲劇發生你們每次都填一份填一份要副本送到我辦公室或送到委員會我今天要這個東西好我再跟你複習做最後總複習我今天要四個工作部長你回去有四個工作儘管我們過長期的私交我今天是不假情面第一個二月份的約談紀錄我要機密東西你自己你自己擦掉我要他到底有沒有約談的主旨二月份"},{"start":3191.073,"end":3207.4,"text":"本部裡沒有約談記錄因為部裡根本沒有這件事你要去查清楚喔萬一查出來這個真的是沒有這件事我跟班次長談的這個議員都有質詢到我們也有資料好 第一個你如果有我今天就要質詢你回去查我已經查過了真的是沒有你去查你去查第二個"},{"start":3211.261,"end":3236.833,"text":"就調查結果重新寫一份報告因為你的報告的事實跟這個結論是不一致的我要求重寫三天內重寫剛剛的結論剛剛的結論我可以再跟您解釋一下嗎沒有結論不同這麼多的霸凌事件結果他說不能證明該員工是因為等等等等我所謂的不能證明是因為確實而且還說不能不是那種不能證明的原因主要是來委員您聽我解釋一下好不好就是謝芬署長跟這位離開的同仁之間還隔兩個還隔兩位主管"},{"start":3240.695,"end":3259.686,"text":"一位副分署長、一位秘書室主任直接督導他的是齊訓長、副分署長以及秘書室主任謝分署長與他之間還隔著這兩位所以謝分署長沒有直接霸凌他所以謝分署長沒有直接霸凌他但是謝分署長有霸凌我霸凌其他的官人"},{"start":3266.07,"end":3267.151,"text":"關於副分署長在10月30號約見離開的同仁"},{"start":3282.897,"end":3303.164,"text":"並且退他的件,要求他11月4號重寫我可不可以把這份資料送給您那你為什麼昨天,你要給我這都可以啊,但是我他的工作你要給我啊這就是為什麼關鍵的這樣子的原因今天弄出人命了耶對,我為什麼會說謝分署長無法證實他直接霸凌他是因為他不是直接督導他的人你敢不敢辦他?你敢不敢辦他?我當然敢辦他你敢辦他?當然,因為我考機會正在,我考機會"},{"start":3310.806,"end":3311.126,"text":"我考機會會進行懲處"},{"start":3340.574,"end":3345.518,"text":"謝謝陳委員、謝謝部長。辛苦了。接下來我們請陳清威委員質詢。謝謝主席。各位委員、各位官員。我也想請部長。委員好。部長好。"},{"start":3366.837,"end":3390.342,"text":"部長這個昨天你們的記者會啊一邊開旁邊的網友留言全部都炸鍋如果您有空的話可以回去看一下網友留言我是認為網友的頭腦都比我們大家比你們勞動部還清楚勞動部是督導我們全國的勞工環境結果自己沒有辦法遵守自己的規定這樣子哪裡還有企業可以服從勞動部的規範呢"},{"start":3392.643,"end":3419.701,"text":"那我也覺得很荒謬的是記者會一開始你就頒發一個勳章但是你的內容是講說我頒發這個勳章可是我讓這個同仁有受霸凌的感受但是呢是他的心理素質不夠好不堪負荷工作的壓力很遺憾但是你今天才講你昨天說有霸凌的感受你今天剛剛報告終於說的確是有霸凌的事實嘛對吧"},{"start":3421.002,"end":3438.513,"text":"是對其他同仁一級主管們有霸凌的事實但是對這位當事人造成了他被霸凌的感受是這個意思嗎沒有這一點我也無法證實這一點在報告裡面因為都是專家去訪談的專家們認為無法證實不是我"},{"start":3442.555,"end":3461.222,"text":"我認為這位被霸凌者您說他沒有被霸凌這位死者他的家屬還有現在全國國人就是想要一個真相結果你頒了一個勳章然後說是對他上面的一級主管是有霸凌的事實但是對他沒有辦法肯定是這個意思嗎"},{"start":3462.842,"end":3482.831,"text":"這是專家去調查的時候他們所做的結論是這樣就是您剛講的外部專家他們做出來的結論嗎因為這是客觀的事實的問題部長您昨天也提到說這個分署長目前的精神狀態不佳需要被心理諮商可能就是今天我們有來的衛福部的官員在負責他的心理諮商但是他22號就要回來上班了請問他會給我們一個書面的道歉嗎"},{"start":3488.314,"end":3502.425,"text":"他到至今他都沒有出來他當然一定要道歉的所以他22號會跟我們全國國人我想他應該要盡快來道歉他22號會上班沒錯吧我想因為他現在請假中那麼我想他應該要盡快來道歉沒有問題"},{"start":3503.866,"end":3521.08,"text":"部長因為我接下來要問你的問題啊等一下還有其他人會問昨天您的記者會是是直接點火在燃燒所以有非常非常多的深喉嚨已經一一找上我們很多的委員那我這個是從執政黨那邊聽來的我是也想請問您啦在這個事情發生過後部長您有沒有致電給民進黨的副秘書長永元慧這個何柏文副秘書長"},{"start":3532.789,"end":3554.017,"text":"請他關切這個勇言會的市議員不要再打追究這件事情你有沒有打這通電話給何柏文副秘書長因為我必須跟李雨祥議員溝通啊所以我有透過何柏文秘書長拜託他幫我們跟李雨祥議員溝通我怎麼做我讓他知道"},{"start":3554.877,"end":3571.363,"text":"結果在李宇祥市議員的臉書上是說你們勞動部發了一個公文請他不要再亂傳你們勞動部的公文這個是瞭解嗎?我們有發這樣的公文嗎?沒有的您再到他的臉書上去看一下所以您是有打給這個何柏文秘書長嗎?有有有"},{"start":3572.423,"end":3598.196,"text":"那根據這個深喉嚨的指出等一下應該也會有別人問啦他說您把你的老師柯建民搬出來說這個希望派系之間的鬥爭不要太嚴重我是想問啦今天你是勞動部部長你應該儘速解決的是我們全國公部門機關這些霸凌的事件要如何遏止怎麼會搞到你用黨中央的派系去處理這件事情呢"},{"start":3599.056,"end":3602.538,"text":"委員我絕對沒有請柯總召講派系問題沒有這個部分我沒有我沒有說你找柯總召是你在打這通電話的時候有沒有提到柯總召沒有沒有那你要找一位市議員需要透過副秘書長嗎當然因為我不認識他"},{"start":3617.746,"end":3631.672,"text":"對不起,因為我不認識他,是,抱歉他其實已經在臉書上呼喚你很久了是,可是我真的不認識他,所以我想跟他溝通所以你的確是有打接通電話給國防部秘書長嗎?是的,是的好,那再來呢,我們想問的是,剛剛已經提到了你也承認這個是一個霸凌的事件但是現在勞動部內部許多人瑟瑟發抖啊"},{"start":3644.517,"end":3658.395,"text":"你昨天完全沒有公布說這個人要調去哪裡你只有說他會換到一個幕僚的單位所以現在很多人不知道他會不會換到我的單位請問這是多大的機密啊為什麼沒有辦法公布他被調去哪裡"},{"start":3659.963,"end":3683.97,"text":"我已經把他降為10值等專委了你有把他降值等嗎?有有從11降到10?是是是對好那他要調去哪裡?因為調去哪裡?勤勤委員給我們一點時間當然這種時候會有哪個地方願意要他去呢?是不是?那要給我們一點時間安排所以他22號回來上班他要先回哪裡?"},{"start":3686.402,"end":3701.727,"text":"拜託委員給我一點時間所以你22號會公佈他要去哪裡是當然然後帶著他出來道歉是好再來這邊呢當然你可能不想再聽一下這個錄音檔了啦但是我們還是要播給大家看幫我播一下"},{"start":3703.953,"end":3726.722,"text":"分享的你們可以不用在上面給我按讚或是好棒棒都不要尤其是假日我們根本不知道你們是不是直系啊所以我一早就為了密說因為那個別同志你沒有回他基本的網路禮儀不懂嗎這不就是一個公視送達一個收吸的概念嗎我們會知道你們知道嗎今天時間到即便我delay你們都應該在外面待命不是嗎"},{"start":3728.459,"end":3751.934,"text":"好不管是右邊的法院判決或者是你們勞動部自己的執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引在在都顯示這位分署長的惡劣行徑就是屬於職場霸凌但是您剛也承認了好那陳昭之委員你剛表我幫你做一個大的馬上幫你做一個大這是"},{"start":3754.172,"end":3765.087,"text":"貴部提供給全國的企業機關使用的好第一奇怪的是為什麼是自主減核你覺得給這個分署長自主減核他會勾他會勾嗎"},{"start":3770.799,"end":3791.49,"text":"確實從這個事件我們可以發現我們所有關於這方面的法制作業要重新檢討我根據網路上的爆料根據這些新聞還有根據他們有內部的一些投書17項它就符合11項結果昨天居然不斷的重複的是說管理不當那你對管理不當的定義也太鬆散了吧"},{"start":3795.973,"end":3813.352,"text":"所以你說要把勞發署署長、副分署長、秘書處主任都送考機會懲處因為他們都必須要負行政責任那政治責任誰來負擔呢政治責任我負啊因為我是政務官是接下來呢"},{"start":3815.683,"end":3843.732,"text":"接下來我會負我該負的責任如果當然社會各界不滿意我會負我該負的責任好那我們今天就看一下所有的委員有沒有辦法接受您今天提供給我們這份報告啦好再來我們是要通盤來檢討這個公部門職場霸凌的問題因為這都是近期內我把所有的新聞整理出來我們也想請這個全序部還有人事總處還有考試院的代表都可以一起列席"},{"start":3845.205,"end":3858.072,"text":"我是婦產科醫生所以看到這個臺南女警被強迫深夜值班以至於流產這件事情也非常的有感今年8月可惜我們是在休會所以沒有辦法在這麼公開的場域來質詢但是我也"},{"start":3861.434,"end":3885.544,"text":"這個召開過一個協調會8月份保發中心有一位主管也是霸凌導致一位工讀生不幸的過世好當時霸凌的這個主管啊與學生生前的對話現在有很多職場霸凌的對話為什麼網路會炸鍋因為這些錄音檔都流傳出來啦不管是你們勞動部或是保發中心還要等一下會講到的海科館"},{"start":3886.784,"end":3910.718,"text":"每一個網友只要聽完這個錄音都會覺得這些人親身的很不值得啊為了你們這樣子的行為而親身真的很不值得好這個海科館的館長他也是極盡的羞辱這位同仁啊他說他不准他請假然後說不然你就去退休好了這些東西都在網路上流傳如果你們不盡快做出一些調整"},{"start":3911.698,"end":3916.342,"text":"我覺得會有越來越多人釋放出更多的錄音我們來看"},{"start":3918.608,"end":3942.777,"text":"這個考試院代表請你回答公務人員保障法第19條規定包含這個公務人員的安全防護措施有執行職務遭受精神不法侵害的預防對不對是那你覺得這個海科館館長他的同仁需要受訓想請特休他一開始先不讓他請假後來叫他直接退休算了"},{"start":3943.632,"end":3959.6,"text":"我又在這個表上又多勾了兩項不准人請假或是不准人強迫退休都又符合囉17項又多了兩項請問他這樣子的發言算不算是精神上的侵害"},{"start":3961.621,"end":3989.319,"text":"這個一般上應該是覺得說應該算是是嘛好那你們這個公務人員保障法第19條你有辦法保障他嗎你可以用你們的自己的法律保障他們嗎目前的機制的話是先向機關申訴如果對於申訴結果不同不滿意或者不同意的話好我等一下跟你講你們機關申訴出了什麼大問題是第一呢你這個公保法齁你剛剛講到"},{"start":3990.885,"end":4017.554,"text":"沒有法則欸第一你很難定義第二你還沒有法則欸是所以依照你們的定義的話昨天他講的管理不當你覺得適合嗎還是直接就定義他是一個職場霸凌依照現行規定各機關會和安全防護小組他小組會由小組來認定那小組的認定不適當或不合然後就要再往保訓會的再申訴的程序那邊處理好這裡啊"},{"start":4020.185,"end":4032.312,"text":"沒有處分欸對所以就算他違反了這條法律現在他也沒有對他可以有任何的處分你覺得這件事是不是應該要重新檢討是那另外這個部分就是機關首長要來經過考記的這個程序來處理這樣對"},{"start":4038.789,"end":4055.038,"text":"我希望3個月內你可以提出書面報告好嗎我們可不可以增訂公務人員保障法對精神侵害屬實的處分的依據可以嗎報告委員那個保障法是保訓會主管是不是可以容許有保訓會跟您報告一下這樣"},{"start":4060.53,"end":4074.485,"text":"各位委員報告我們目前公務人員保障法裡面它有要機關應該預防公務人員受到不法侵害那我們的安全衛生防護辦法"},{"start":4075.626,"end":4078.447,"text":"目前因為停職是對公務人權有重大影響應該在法律上明定"},{"start":4105.905,"end":4118.482,"text":"我我跟你們講你剛你們剛講的那個表出了什麼可以依照懲戒法的規定一副懲戒之後如果認為情節重大就可以依法所以剛提到的這位分署長他應該考機會也會送懲戒也會討論了之後對兩邊都會"},{"start":4123.188,"end":4141.493,"text":"因為我們目前懲戒跟懲處是並行的嘛他可以一方面做懲處一方面機關認為他情節重大的話可以依照懲戒法的規定移赴懲戒那移赴懲戒也可以依照懲戒法的規定如果認為是情節重大可以依職權停職這個應該情節夠重大了吧"},{"start":4145.214,"end":4159.295,"text":"因為只要機關認定並不是保訓會認定所以的意思是說機關目前還沒認定他情節重大所以還報告之後調查清楚了要討論到考機會上去討論"},{"start":4160.977,"end":4183.904,"text":"才會給予停職的處分才會考慮有沒有這一條的適用考試院我們可以再討論一下您剛提到的您剛提到有一個員工職場霸凌處理標準作業流程這個是人事總處訂定出來的你看這兩個表有多大的問題我都已經幫你圈出來了剛剛我提到所有近期內發生的新聞事件"},{"start":4184.744,"end":4184.764,"text":"報告．"},{"start":4210.49,"end":4211.031,"text":"請您看一下左邊這個表"},{"start":4231.733,"end":4246.955,"text":"假使發生了多元申訴管道好你一邊是事件處理啟動申訴處理調查一邊是主動這個人事主管單位主管主動通報機關首長那假使霸凌者本人就是機關首長你覺得他應該要去走哪一條路"},{"start":4251.942,"end":4277.881,"text":"委員好因為機關首長的話他就是往上級機關走那這個部分的話我們在112年9月14號的時候我們也有通韓行政院所屬各主管機關還有地方機關要在他們這個相關的處理要點裡面要把機關首長涉及這個職場霸凌的申訴處理由上級機關"},{"start":4279.362,"end":4285.428,"text":"所以你的意思是說現在全國在看電視的公務人員他假使遇到是被機關首長霸凌他要再往上一個單位嗎是這個意思嗎"},{"start":4308.329,"end":4332.456,"text":"說明一下那個分署的上級機關是勞發署那我們這個流程的規定就是說你在有這個霸凌的相關事件發生的時候這一個處理的參考流程那你公務人員你再跟機關提出申訴那如果是申訴的對象是機關首長那就是往上級機關來做"},{"start":4334.757,"end":4351.832,"text":"申訴處理之後陳昭智委員會繼續追因為這個人的確是有在網上這個大家應該都知道吧但是卻沒有結果啊所以你這張表啊我們也會要求你通盤的檢討就算是網上也沒有用啊"},{"start":4353.7,"end":4380.717,"text":"這個相關的機制的部分我們這個也會來配合勞動部的那個相關的那個職場霸凌指引好就是因為你們人事總處、考試院、詮釋部都沒有把這些規則訂好來我們來看教育部他是怎麼回復我們的這個建議免刪除或是凍結預算的回復剛剛已經有講到了海科館的館長是用言語去羞辱他的同仁"},{"start":4381.737,"end":4407.232,"text":"結果呢 最後回來的報告是寫說噢 經過我們的瞭解他還是給他放假囉 而且也讓他去受訓囉最後沒有影響到員工的權益 這樣就算了欸那館長已經表達會自主檢討 積極改善所以他前面被霸凌的事實全部都不用算囉 因為最後他的權益都沒有影響所以他中間被精神虐待 精神霸凌都無所謂了嗎"},{"start":4415.703,"end":4429.678,"text":"報告委員 這個部分我們教育部的回覆主要是針對請假最後的結果來做說明那至於說整個那個館長他的這個管理風格的這個部分我們事實上已經在做了解所以的確我們剛講的第19條毫無約束能力嘛"},{"start":4433.502,"end":4459.962,"text":"他沒有辦法懲處也沒有辦法約束我三個月內要看到你們提交報告第一要怎麼樣界定什麼叫管理不當什麼叫霸凌第二他可以受到什麼懲處我們要如何援引這個法條最後這邊因為我很怕又有一個無辜的生命受到侵害這個是最近脆上面一直在流傳的有一位疾管署的整備組組長"},{"start":4461.923,"end":4478.83,"text":"一樣這個他在籍管署就像一個土皇帝啦許多豐功偉業很多人發文對同事咆哮摔公文罵別人是豬導致一堆人降調或是用其他的方式逃離我也請了籍管署提供相關的資料齁"},{"start":4479.85,"end":4481.732,"text":"他這個整備組調離還有辭職率高達37.14%是署內的最高單位也是異動率最高的我想知道保訓會什麼時候可以開始立案調查?多久可以有結果?"},{"start":4498.001,"end":4520.594,"text":"跟委員報告各機關有關職場霸凌的調查是各機關的權限各機關針對這個調查之後做成成立或不成立的決定那今天衛福部只有來一位是不是衛福部只有來一位所以保訓會你已經收到我們具體的檢舉還是要交給原來單位就對了第一個保訓會還沒有接到這個案子"},{"start":4527.853,"end":4550.506,"text":"我現在在告訴你這個案子那這個案子必須機關先做行政調查對於新機關行政調查的結果任何一方的公務人員、霸凌者或是被霸凌者有所不服都可以依照保障法的規定來提起最後我就是請衛福部代表回答他會不會今天回去啟動這個調查"},{"start":4552.566,"end":4555.067,"text":"明天可以請教部長還有機關署 其實明天機關署要過來"},{"start":4578.258,"end":4580.679,"text":"主席,是不是請我們這個勞動部部長"},{"start":4598.436,"end":4612.233,"text":"昨天你們的行政調查結果報告出來那引起很多的迴響那其中有一個說法是這樣子就是說調查小組的召集人是誰"},{"start":4613.849,"end":4616.43,"text":"許傳聖次長有人說許傳聖次長跟這個謝宜榮這個分署長是在北市政府社會局的時候就舊事然後他也曾經公開跟大家說我認識謝宜榮很久了他只是個性級"},{"start":4635.2,"end":4639.424,"text":"結果在調查的時候甚至曾經有傳出他對調查小組的委員說要還優秀的人才清白然後聽說我們的許次長經常下鄉的時候都說怡榮要賠"},{"start":4654.537,"end":4665.147,"text":"要陪、要跟著然後呢我們就看到了你們定調的這個行政調查結果你們大概的講的範圍是說謝玉榮他基本上是這個過度求好心切啦你們的基本上是這樣講這個跟他的管理方式"},{"start":4674.235,"end":4699.923,"text":"這個並不是同仁離開的直接原因而他個人因為求好心切其他都是高工時、人力不足這一些問題所以看起來我們有傳出說這個次長跟他交情頗好結果調查小組都是跟他交情頗好的人在當召集人這樣的事情你有什麼看法"},{"start":4700.745,"end":4722.192,"text":"委員首先第一點我要澄清許市長他是30年前跟他在臺北市沒有啦也不只是這樣子他也公開說我認識他很久了他只是個性急他就公開跟大家這樣講啊媒體報導的啊我想那是他過去對他個性的理解所以有此可知他們很熟啊很理解啊然後他下鄉的時候都會說怡榮要賠啊"},{"start":4725.351,"end":4746.944,"text":"委員您放心啦 因為我們的調查那他跟調查小組的成員說我們要還優秀的人才清白這是什麼意思 預設立場我不知道他講這句話我不知道他有講過這句話好 OK 沒關係你不知道沒關係那我現在再請教你我現在有點好奇就是說依照人事總處的這個機制體制"},{"start":4755.072,"end":4759.296,"text":"他要求你們要有那個叫什麼我看一下那個叫什麼"},{"start":4760.319,"end":4762.801,"text":"機關首長如果涉及職場霸凌事件應由上級機關受理申訴事宜請各機關並同通盤檢視、修正內容相關處理作業流程並督導所屬機關落實辦理"},{"start":4791.6,"end":4805.569,"text":"什麼時候定出你們機關首長如果涉案你們的標準作業流程還有督導這個要怎麼樣進行你們是什麼時候定出來的我請人事長來回答嗎那個人事處長你們是什麼時候定出來的112年9月發文給你們你們什麼時候定出來的人事處長什麼時候"},{"start":4820.925,"end":4838.431,"text":"113年3月21號113年3月喔 聽清楚喔3月喔今年3月才訂出來人家去年9月就叫勞動部你們要訂出一個關於機關首長若涉及職場霸凌要怎麼處理的機制最近修訂是3月"},{"start":4838.911,"end":4860.795,"text":"你們不是修訂啊,你們增訂機關所長涉案是今年3月才訂今年3月是什麼時候?好沒關係今年3月是什麼狀況?今年3月是今年2月我們的王前次長你剛才講的他有沒有私底下跟勞發署分署長謝一榮討論人家所謂的陳秦涵的內容"},{"start":4865.41,"end":4870.617,"text":"有沒有我真的不知道有沒有這件事你剛才不是這樣講喔你剛才是說我也查過部裡沒有任何記錄你是說他們是私下的談話我理解你的理解他是私下談話那麼我就來了"},{"start":4880.47,"end":4891.055,"text":"你那時候還沒有修訂機關首長涉及霸凌事件的標準處理程序那你們拿著員工的陳情函然後跟被申訴者進行私底下的談話"},{"start":4899.551,"end":4910.76,"text":"我去陳情了你拿了我的陳情函去跟我陳情的對象去進行私底下的談話這是勞動部關於機關首長涉及職場霸凌的申訴處理標準制度的SOP嗎不是當然不是阿你們就是這樣做欸"},{"start":4923.05,"end":4943.441,"text":"市長就這樣做了你剛剛講說他們私底下談話我員工去陳情了裡面陳情內容包括這個謝玉榮在公共空間栽種個人植物運用公家的資源用電過量導致這個超過前期使用量然後還包括對下屬言語霸凌怒罵情緒暴衝然後還包括"},{"start":4945.462,"end":4966.948,"text":"宣導禮品濫發和花費高還包括2023年去年8月開始因個人私教學校運用同一名講師上各式各樣課程且成為多元方案顧問然後還包括強迫同仁要跑步然後你們都說這是求好心切欸這裏面不是設計霸凌人家檢舉的澄清函裏面很多還包括這個關針出問題欸"},{"start":4974.249,"end":4983.917,"text":"然後呢你們拿了這張澄清函然後去跟被檢舉的機關所長私底下談話你理解的叫私底下談話我先請教你這一個澄清函有沒有具名"},{"start":4988.41,"end":5007.648,"text":"我根本不知道沒有調查嗎?你那時候我可以認知到你不是首長,所以你不知道,但這個事情鬧得沸沸揚揚了,你現在還跟我講說你不知道,你做完行政調查了,你還說我不知情,這樣會贏嗎?"},{"start":5010.339,"end":5032.016,"text":"那我問你你現在不知情二月人家陳秦涵你們是私底下談話次長跟謝宜蓉私底下就戳掉了沒有立案僅你口頭告知叫謝宜蓉要注意言行然後就結案掉了沒有立案所以你理解成是私底下談話這個就是你們的SOP然後呢同這件事情私底下談話之後發生什麼事你知道嗎"},{"start":5040.422,"end":5047.276,"text":"就是發聲你們勞發署的謝一榮的分署用北分署人字第1130700162號發文要求同仁"},{"start":5053.069,"end":5081.241,"text":"正式發文發文的主題是避免發生洩漏公務機密的情勢正式發文給北分署裡面所有的單位你們不可以發生洩漏公務機密的情勢然後3月發生什麼事3月你們就增訂了有關機關首長涉及霸凌事件應由這個具管轄權的上級機關受理申訴事宜的規定"},{"start":5083.942,"end":5106.083,"text":"這個程序是這樣子,人家跟你們陳情了,陳情了有關真,可能有這個貪污的疑似貪污情結,更有對屬下言語霸凌怒罵情緒暴衝,你們的上級機關知情之下是私底下談話,沒有立案,用口頭告知注意言行結案。"},{"start":5106.824,"end":5122.104,"text":"然後謝玉榮回去很生氣就發了一張公文給大家不可以發生洩露公務機密的公文然後你們就趕快訂了一個機關首長涉及霸凌事件的受理申訴的事宜的處理規定好"},{"start":5124.755,"end":5125.035,"text":"我覺得這個行為是不對的"},{"start":5150.237,"end":5164.434,"text":"所以 如果 因為委員 我現在也正在立案調查中欸 你們的標準程序也不是這樣處理啊好 結果你們就這樣 我現在要再講一件事喔因為我覺得很擔心上行下效啊 組織文化啊只有謝義榮這樣子嗎 沒有 沒有 沒有你們的署長"},{"start":5170.578,"end":5192.842,"text":"蔡孟良就一開始也是覺得他是很優秀只是管理嚴格了一點我想署長啊你啊你自己任內有沒有逼走逼退很多人啊你自己單位裡面你勞發署署長有沒有情緒失控的情勢發生過呢?你有沒有主管也是受不了你霸凌離職過呢?有沒有?報告委員"},{"start":5196.532,"end":5213.997,"text":"呃我的行政管理上確實我比較嚴格那我的所有的主管我們都希望能夠一起共同打拼每一個要離開的我都希望能夠留下來所以跟委員報告我們還是希望我再問你有沒有咧你有沒有副署長你一個副署長寧願降調分數也不願再跟你一起共事啊"},{"start":5219.778,"end":5220.339,"text":"根文報告根文報告"},{"start":5241.493,"end":5260.19,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分絕對沒有所謂的霸凌跟不當管理你霸凌的人都不會覺得自己霸凌別人你有沒有情緒控管失控標罵同仁我講有沒有標罵同仁跟委員報告我現在在所有的公務上都是依照公務的要求"},{"start":5261.084,"end":5279.931,"text":"你有沒有賴副署長寧願降調分數也不要再繼續留著?跟委員報告,如果賴副署長是因為我霸凌,我可以請他共同,因為他是因為家庭的照顧因素。人家要走的人敢講真話嗎?霸凌就這樣子,就是這樣子。部長,你來講看看,我擔心的是上行下效組織文化啦。"},{"start":5287.273,"end":5293.68,"text":"那我現在聽到說也有副署長寧可降調分數也一定要離開還有5S管理不要罵同仁"},{"start":5300.558,"end":5315.948,"text":"而且署內很標準就是人一直人力不斷的流失不是只有分署分署兩年流失了81個人這個裡面還包括正式編制主任編制11個離職9個科長編制6個離職5個這是謝玉榮的成就但我們其他的署內不是分署喔我們勞防署署內有沒有這種情況"},{"start":5328.046,"end":5337.972,"text":"如果有這個情況,我們就一律徹查,包含我本人我現在在請教這個部長,對你就是可能是也是需要一併調查的對象"},{"start":5339.645,"end":5364.732,"text":"從這個許次長跟謝義榮交情這麼好到你們的署長跟分署長也交情這麼好然後到你們調查出來你們的調查行政調查的報告說管理方式不是造成同仁離開的直接原因可是你們又講同仁的離開主要是因為單獨從事資訊工作量過於龐大以及壓力太大又缺乏足夠的資源協助"},{"start":5365.852,"end":5388.289,"text":"這不是分署長的管理責任嗎?他工作量過大、壓力過大、沒有資源協助這不是分署長的管理有問題嗎?的確,一定是可是你第一點就是說,謝分署長管理方式不是同仁離開的直接原因"},{"start":5388.789,"end":5416.726,"text":"抱歉委員可能我那一句那一句話比較講得太過簡要沒有講沒有講到這麼的完整對阿因為這樣講讓我們都很擔心啦然後因為這樣講人家看不到阿你說的不是他管理方式讓他選擇離開可是你後面講的東西都是他管理方式有問題那你們現在又講謝芬署長的管理方式情緒控管的確不當"},{"start":5417.506,"end":5418.627,"text":"是啊 確實是這樣子"},{"start":5432.27,"end":5452.499,"text":"整個單位都被他霸凌了也是因為這樣所以他說沒有辦法證明他霸凌這個離開的員工但我現在再一個就是說你們認定的理由裡面第一個不公平對待或過度要求行為第一長工時超時工作早上5點多到下午7、8點"},{"start":5454.147,"end":5470.04,"text":"超過12個小時5點多就要進去這怎麼一回事啊我們今天也是4、5點來的但只有一天我們就受不了了而他是每一天每一天他快要崩潰了"},{"start":5471.981,"end":5497.473,"text":"我們這位離開的同仁非常盡責這是我也很不捨的地方而且他寧願打假卡大家都不知道他為什麼要這麼做你知道嗎 你們第二個調查是說人力配置不合理但是這裡面我講的就是說北分署諮詢室是1加5個承攬人這裡面你們自己寫的報告承攬就是制度面的問題"},{"start":5499.979,"end":5511.232,"text":"職場霸凌的這個原因很難講得清楚但其中一個就是說業務量過大他有苦難言有苦難以申訴然後沒有人可以幫忙做可是他有6個人為什麼沒有人可以幫他做因為依規定承攬人"},{"start":5517.915,"end":5518.175,"text":"現在問題來了以前是派遣"},{"start":5544.068,"end":5548.047,"text":"派遣可不可以指揮監督?要派公司可不可以指揮監督?"},{"start":5549.943,"end":5572.909,"text":"可以那改成承攬我們可不可以對他直接指揮監督要求他協助做什麼反而不行了所以這是問題那派遣還能指揮承攬不可以所以有人在那裡他也不能叫他分擔啊所以這是不是問題當然是問題你們把所有的派遣都拿掉改成承攬"},{"start":5574.689,"end":5577.671,"text":"這制度面出問題耶是是那你要怎麼解決對所以我要跟行政院反映這個問題是因為這是整個我們制度上的問題我知道啊所以大家給聲啦啊我們都不要用派遣啦派遣低薪啦派遣勞動條件差啦"},{"start":5593.462,"end":5594.603,"text":"對公務體系也很糟糕對承攬人員來講也沒有好到哪裡去"},{"start":5611.351,"end":5634.44,"text":"所以我今天在這裡要跟你談的制度面的問題其中最重要一個就是說這個派遣派遣至少在這方面派遣人員還能夠幫如果這個同仁是用的是派遣或許這五個承攬人力變成五個派遣人力他可以指揮監督他還可以請他們協助或許他的工作壓力沒這麼大"},{"start":5637.545,"end":5643.99,"text":"這麼久以來本來以為沒有派遣零派遣是得正結果現在發現零派遣出問題"},{"start":5646.29,"end":5669.2,"text":"對所以委員這也是為什麼我對他的直接督導他的副分署長資訊長以及他的秘書室主任我也予以懲處那你的人事主管為什麼沒有他們最接近他他們最接近他對人事主管為什麼沒有因為員工職場霸凌防自然處理建議作為裡面其中事件通報除了單位主管還有一個是人事主管你們人事主管為什麼沒有處分"},{"start":5670.353,"end":5673.435,"text":"因為1111人力銀行調查發現超過83%的上班族在職場遇過霸凌言語嘲諷佔了57%背後重傷上播謠言佔了將近50%"},{"start":5698.551,"end":5716.768,"text":"然後孤立他大概刻意排擠大概降也是將近50%工作出處刁難46.8%然後這裡面加害者最常見的是只屬主管44.1還沒完喔最重要是女性遇到職場霸凌的比例顯然比男性高出15%那還不是重點我要講的重點是在這裡"},{"start":5724.263,"end":5731.545,"text":"最重要是這樣子被霸凌所任職的公司的產業別最高18.9%是傳產和製造業接下來12%、13%差不了多少的就是媒體出版業、工商業服務以及教育政府機關12.6%"},{"start":5745.655,"end":5770.473,"text":"所以霸凌在公部門在教育部門在政府機關團體部門霸凌的比例根據1111的調查是12.6%幾乎幾乎就是雖然是第四名但是跟第二名第三名差不了多少所以這是我覺得這是我們國家的恥辱啊"},{"start":5771.354,"end":5775.637,"text":"怎麼國家的公務體系、部門、公務機關被霸凌的狀況這麼嚴重,比民間還要更嚴重呢?是不是有一種官場文化使然啊?"},{"start":5788.604,"end":5806.691,"text":"而這種官場文化大家都習以為常都不思改進然後都覺得理所當然就像剛才署長一直覺得說我管理我的部署都是競責在要求競責沒有錯但是態度很重要"},{"start":5807.918,"end":5830.929,"text":"管理也很重要但是溝通的能力也很重要是要這樣子我們知道所以這裡面需要檢討的我想派遣承蘭你們公部門你們負責管理這個職場霸凌的目的事業主管機關結果公部門裡面最嚴重最嚴重那公部門是人事總處嗎"},{"start":5834.32,"end":5838.424,"text":"那該怎麼做回去檢討那民間部門也很嚴重那整個個案的行政調查我們認為昨天調查的文字內容很多不妥然後許次長自以身為調查小組的趙吉仁跟謝一榮交情那麼好也難以服眾謝謝"},{"start":5858.543,"end":5863.369,"text":"謝謝林委員、謝謝部長那接續我們請王一民委員質詢好,謝謝主席,我們是不是有請部長"},{"start":5877.233,"end":5878.533,"text":"發聲在你勞動部"},{"start":5905.578,"end":5910.502,"text":"是 所以我昨天道歉了我覺得這件事情真的讓全國民眾看了覺得非常的心痛因為勞動部自己照道理來講你們要做全國最好的表率你才可以有權力有資格"},{"start":5922.87,"end":5941.056,"text":"去勞檢所有的企業單位要求他們做到勞基法裡面各項你們要求的標準結果你們自己都沒有到位我們來看這一位已經逝去的員工他生前這樣的一個情況勞動部裡面都沒有人知道嗎"},{"start":5942.176,"end":5957.254,"text":"我們辦公室發出要求你們提供的從10月22號開始他的上班情況跟這個監視錄影帶看到的情況真的讓人家看得非常的心疼這樣那個影像是他單獨一大早去開門的影像下班的影像"},{"start":5959.637,"end":5985.179,"text":"他的上班時間異於常人都是5點多就到辦公室所有的監視畫面調出來的都是5點多就到辦公室然後他離開的時間有將近7點的也有8點半的你們現在螢幕上看到的這個是他當天早上10月22號5點02分就進了辦公室到了晚上8點35分才離開"},{"start":5987.711,"end":5990.219,"text":"但是他的打卡紀錄是7點11分到5點01分離開"},{"start":5995.916,"end":6014.774,"text":"所有的出勤記錄都跟他實際的狀況不一樣這個就是業界大家說的打假卡一個公務員為什麼要打假卡為什麼這麼的超時上班而且是連續性的每天都是超過12個鐘頭已經都是超過勞基法裡面"},{"start":6018.357,"end":6019.758,"text":"所規範的最高12小時"},{"start":6047.791,"end":6075.288,"text":"還無法掌握嗎?這個員工他生前他的上班的情況還無法掌握嗎?我請人事處長回答一下好請說報告委員11月4號當天發生事件的時候我們人事處那邊就查出來他的一整年的出入到請的記錄那這一年來他完全是正常其中還有7月份他到日本去出國旅遊"},{"start":6075.956,"end":6099.486,"text":"所以最密集的就是最近這段時間他早上5點是從幾號開始是10月22號嗎還是更早之前沒有他更早之前幾月他到底是因為那個刷卡紀錄看起來都是你們不是有調監視器嗎顯然他刷卡的紀錄跟監視器的是不吻合的嘛你們監視器自己看到多久以前"},{"start":6101.974,"end":6116.701,"text":"跟委員報告因為委員當初要求這個監視器我們有跟大樓的我們的那個管理會要求那他的保存的時間一般只有15天所以15天以前的他們並沒有所以你們沒有辦法掌握你們沒有問過他的家人"},{"start":6118.068,"end":6133.761,"text":"家屬的部分其實是有在瞭解他的實際狀況其實我們跟他跟他共同工作的同事我們也瞭解確實他在這個之前也長期都是很早到這個是在目前那個時期的情況這個就是問題之所在"},{"start":6134.301,"end":6154.457,"text":"如果有一個員工他每天都要5點就上班長時間每天超過12個鐘頭這麼長的時間為什麼分署裡面沒有人知道沒有人主動去關心沒有人去問他說你的工作量是怎麼樣是不是需要幫忙他上面的主管都在睡覺嗎"},{"start":6156.168,"end":6171.476,"text":"都沒有人主動去解決他的問題還是覺得這是理所當然壓榨勞工就是這樣子你的事情沒有辦好這就是你該做的事你們到底是什麼樣的企業文化那你們調查清楚了嗎這些主管什麼時候才知道這個員工的上班狀態我要問的是這個"},{"start":6179.735,"end":6203.689,"text":"不是這一位已經輕生的員工?無薪員工?到目前為止我覺得你們的調查不夠仔細不夠深入我這樣一問部長竟然都回答不出來這不是才一個禮拜前發生的事情已經是兩個禮拜以前發生的事情那你有沒有通盤去了解所有的來龍去脈?"},{"start":6205.609,"end":6220.598,"text":"委員我理解起來他的打卡記錄都是正常的就是假的啊對對對對我現在在問你的是你們什麼時候知道說他其實都是那麼早上班然後都是打假卡其實我想如果沒有這次的事件他的主管也都不知道"},{"start":6222.069,"end":6239.9,"text":"那這就很離譜啊一個組織裡面有人這麼早上班所以非常離譜所以我去懲處他的直屬督導他的最身邊的那兩位所以這就是出現了非常大的問題嘛一個組織裡面有一個人長時期這麼操工時工作那麼早到"},{"start":6240.62,"end":6255.95,"text":"然後沒有一個主管發現是沒有發現還是不想處理我想他的指數都哪也許會認為理所當然因為你的工作你就是要完成也許所以我對他們這樣的行為我不能諒解"},{"start":6257.15,"end":6277.86,"text":"我覺得是離譜到極點了離譜到極點所以這個就是不是完全部長你說確認的原因這個有管理上非常嚴重的問題啊人事總處某一部分也講對了這是這個單位在管理上面有非常嚴重的問題你竟然完全沒有感覺末梢神經麻痺"},{"start":6279.164,"end":6279.184,"text":"好﹗"},{"start":6308.453,"end":6308.653,"text":"當然當然當然"},{"start":6335.762,"end":6356.354,"text":"分屬很多同仁抱怨連連然後也透過不同的管道去投訴結果我們辦公室問了你們你們說這個投訴到次長這件事情是假消息我聽了嚇一跳媒體報導的這麼真切你們的回覆是說這媒體亂報導的這是假消息啊"},{"start":6359.036,"end":6376.781,"text":"我沒有說假消息我只說我那邊查不到而已那有沒有這件事呢王安邦市長有沒有跟謝芬署長有談話有約談這件事情是真的還是假的請回答"},{"start":6377.915,"end":6405.521,"text":"委員就是我如果根據部裡的記錄是沒有的可是如果根據外界的這樣指責那麼多的報導那你可以去求證阿王次長你可以去求證王次長阿連這種電話都不能打嗎有沒有跟他求證阿委員我想如果王次長他有需要的話他應該會告訴我啦對所以你們也沒有通電話你也沒去跟他求證這麼重要的一個線索那你們調查報告在寫什麼"},{"start":6407.305,"end":6432.052,"text":"這件事情很重要你知道嗎因為二月份這代表如果分署裡面的同仁二月份已經投訴而且次長已經出面那怎麼會到最後變成不了了之到底處理了什麼那你們怎麼會這一部分都完全不想去掌握也不想去了解呢你們有跟分署長本人確認嗎他有沒有被約談二月份"},{"start":6433.552,"end":6455.223,"text":"約談完之後他再下令叫大家說誰洩密又去查說誰洩密我要跟您澄清二月份他被約談這件事不在我調查小組的調查份為什麼不調查因為他並非我調查小組只有三個重點第一個這個謝榮芬署長有沒有直接霸凌離開的同仁第二個謝榮芬署長有沒有霸凌其他的同仁"},{"start":6455.643,"end":6471.578,"text":"對阿那2月份涉及到他有沒有霸凌其他同仁阿你為什麼要主動排除我們調查起來我們已經有證實他有霸凌其他同仁可是2月份他有沒有跟王安邦見面不是我們調查的重點"},{"start":6472.399,"end":6498.899,"text":"當然是重點啊那代表那個時候同仁已經反應嘛那個時候同仁已經反應代表你勞動部代表你勞動部的次長已經知道我們講說霸凌的處理原則就是要向上通報那今天發生在分署的事件你勞動部如果在2月份已經知道為什麼這段時間你什麼都沒有做什麼都沒有處理你上任我就問你520上任你知道這件事嗎我不知道完全不知道那這就是問題啊"},{"start":6501.141,"end":6518.89,"text":"如果這件事情對於分屬的同仁來講是一件重大的事情他們也希望上級單位幫忙處理結果你520上任你根本就不知道這件事情那不用去查嗎那2月份難道2月份分屬這些同仁的投訴通通就當作什麼這個全部就當作沒有發生啊"},{"start":6523.253,"end":6545.714,"text":"難怪現在你們調查報告出來分署很多同仁情緒還在憤恨不平他覺得從頭到尾勞動部就是漠視他們的一些聲音嘛其實委員他們反映的這些內容都已經披露了啦包括李玉祥議員的臉書都已經披露了但是就調查這件事情我認為次長有沒有去約談分署長這件事情也是很重要的線索"},{"start":6546.614,"end":6567.694,"text":"當然必須在你調查的範圍你們主動排除我覺得非常的詭異不知道為什麼要主動排除這是涉及到你們背後的政治角力還是有什麼政治因素干擾我不知道但是就調查事件的本身那是一個重要的線索如果那個時候分署長就已經被告知應該要處理"},{"start":6569.415,"end":6590.42,"text":"然後勞動部也已經知曉是次長級的人物那為什麼那個時候沒有處理還是那時候有反應次長有跟部長反應但是部長也覺得沒有關係我覺得整件事情要調查就調查個徹底啊你才知道那個環節是出現在哪裡嘛結果你們昨天公佈了這個調查我覺得你們有自己主動去把一些資訊就是剔除掉"},{"start":6592,"end":6620.594,"text":"你就只鎖定你想要交代說這位吳遠的親身跟霸凌事件無關他只是工作壓力太大你們想要造成的效果就是這樣嘛但是你不能去排除他從頭到尾都沒有跟分署長接觸過嗎他所交辦的這個責任他今天要進行的這個計畫不是上面交辦下來的嗎當然都有關係啊那怎麼可以完全去排除呢所以我覺得這件事情喔"},{"start":6622.074,"end":6637.344,"text":"這個勞動部有吃案的嫌疑當分署的同仁已經反映到次長你們沒有就沒有下文你說也沒有記錄什麼都沒有你們現在竟然回應外界說沒有這就是吃案委員我現在也可以用這個案來重啟調查好不好好"},{"start":6638.004,"end":6653.799,"text":"那你就重啟調查你就重啟調查勞動部不能做錯誤的示範不能施案我們現在馬上就是承諾委員我們就2月份王安邦次長有沒有約見謝宜榮分署長我們現在即刻重啟調查是"},{"start":6655.311,"end":6676.503,"text":"你要給外界一個交代啊你要給外界一個交代不可以有次案的事情另外一個我要講的是你們現在所受理的這些案件我要求你們提供你們說你們到目前為止受理的這些植物遭受不法侵害的這些案件呢總共才七件結果你知道你們受理的七件通通都不成立"},{"start":6677.543,"end":6701.524,"text":"不成立 內容不明確如果依你們現在的一個調查的心態跟方法的話投訴100件也沒有用這到底問題出在哪裡之前人家在反映的時候也說分屬沒有這一些事情結果你們現在調查完之後就說這個霸凌案成立怎麼會有這麼大的落差你這些案子你確立你們都是不成立的嗎我請署長回答"},{"start":6703.675,"end":6731.312,"text":"這七件是北分署他受理他們員工的申訴但是他的對象其實是同儕同事跟同事之間我知道同事跟同事之間都沒有我要講的就是說你們今天所公開的資訊沒有一件跟分署長有關結果他霸凌那麼嚴重第二個是即使是同事跟同事之間也沒有一件成立的不覺得很有問題嗎是不是你們的標準太嚴格還是調查不仔細"},{"start":6731.952,"end":6759.73,"text":"委員報告因為我們所有分署在執行都是依照我們的這個安全防護要點都是有外部委員加入我們的調查但是召集人是你們自己人啊對召集人是依照我們的我要求你們要重新去檢視喔都不成立其實是不太合理的喔如果從這次我們就看到說之前你們說這個分署長沒有問題結果認真調查起來霸凌案是成立了喔另外一個最後我要講很多的基層公務員也擦了蛋"},{"start":6760.35,"end":6760.87,"text":"這兩個意見您同意嗎"},{"start":6783.505,"end":6783.966,"text":"提高位階你們要多久的時間?"},{"start":6798.506,"end":6801.391,"text":"文字上需要再做一些修正,我們再回來再做一些檢討"},{"start":6814.65,"end":6816.551,"text":"接續我們請劉建國委員發言劉建國發言完畢之後我們休息10分鐘"},{"start":6854.862,"end":6881.502,"text":"來有請部長蔡署長你並上來吧我也好部長辛苦了但這件事情從11月4號發生到現在如果再處理不好你會越來越苦勞動部上上下下的同仁也一樣會越來越苦會發生這樣的憾事"},{"start":6882.659,"end":6882.779,"text":"當然當然"},{"start":6913.405,"end":6937.074,"text":"會有這麼多執政黨的地方議員到現在還窮追不捨也有執政黨的委員也看不下去所以今天蘇昭偉排這樣的專案報告當然就是要趕快來釐清不要讓這樣的憾事再持續發生下去"},{"start":6938.462,"end":6967.391,"text":"但是我們真的有這樣的決心跟魄力跟喚醒確實不要讓這樣的憾事再發生下去嗎?顯然在這個報告裡面我說真的是看不出來真的是看不出來我在講我們的許傳勝次長有特別提到嘛鄭林分組長有凌晨1點、5點船內在交辦事情"},{"start":6968.578,"end":6991.778,"text":"而且還規定在10分鐘內要回復10分鐘內如果沒有回復,隔天就叫到辦公室去罵這是你們的報告是次長所講的嘛,對不對好,針對這一位已經失去生命的同仁你們報告裡面說這個副處長對他沒有霸凌但在這個次長上他確實有霸凌的行為這不是很衝突"},{"start":6995.612,"end":6999.137,"text":"不是很矛盾委員我剛剛已經解釋了齁可以讓我解釋嗎"},{"start":7001.721,"end":7029.58,"text":"我再講一下啦我一定給你時間解釋啦因為你講說他是因為領導統一的風格嘛對不對都在你報告裡面那與同仁互信破裂還要繼續執行職務恐有爭議且對機關生意有重大之影響建議先行調整職務所以分所長的調理限職是在他的領導統一不是讓同仁命上在這個辦公室"},{"start":7030.541,"end":7036.784,"text":"而且我們只是擔心他繼續執行職務影響到機關的聲譽是這樣嗎委員就是說他是一個機關的最高首長他的任何行為一定會影響到每一個人所以他有對一級主管會影響到每一個人嘛所以一定包含這個11月4號在自己的辦公室結束生命的這個同仁我想透過層層傳導也會的"},{"start":7059.048,"end":7083.355,"text":"對嘛對,可是不是直接原因不是直接他霸凌他他中間還隔著兩位主管就是我這一次也進行懲處的副分署長以及秘書室主任這就是這兩位主管才是直接督導這位離開的同仁那謝分署長的確有對其他的一級主管進行霸凌可是他是透過層層傳導的機制傳導到我們離開的同仁身上"},{"start":7088.076,"end":7114.646,"text":"應該是這麼說部長我覺得你這麼講我可以理解你對這事情的認知跟感受還有你在公部門的職場的相關一些經驗但是有些事情是已經是整個系統已經出的很嚴重的問題對我覺得是要凸顯系統性的問題才去做這樣的調查這個系統性問題應該也不是只有北分署是的連老花署本身問題也非常嚴重"},{"start":7117.148,"end":7144.489,"text":"要不要問一下我們的署長在他的任內他的任內中副署長還有相關的有多少同仁都被都被提早退休有多少個科長級的現在從九職等八職等自己調到地方的區公所署長要不要對外說明一下署已經出問題分署哪有不出問題的道理"},{"start":7146.806,"end":7161.978,"text":"有沒有跟委員報告齁我們在今年如果以今年齁我們大概是有3名同仁退休對那其中都是借齡對對都是借齡不是提前退休就是達到退休的條件"},{"start":7162.878,"end":7184.611,"text":"中戶也不是中戶署長也不是體檢退休薛組長也不是體檢退休陳峰署長也不是體檢退休都不是你把握明確的跟委員會講對他們就是依法退休對是依法退休不是要做體檢退休你要看這幾天有其他的機關被提早退休引鬧的灰黑洋洋喔"},{"start":7186.189,"end":7206.757,"text":"跟委員報告所以這三位都不是提早退休跟委員報告他們不是被提早退休那個是因為他們都有各自所以他們是自願提早退休都有各自因為每一位我都跟他懇談所以他們是自願的提前退休嘛對不對不是借領嘛不是借領是嗎是好所以這個因素我們在討論吼那是不是還有很多包含重規組訓練組有多位科長"},{"start":7209.81,"end":7230.492,"text":"已經降調只是已經請調降到降級然後調到其他區公所去有沒有有幾位有幾位就好我們今年有兩位是有商調到其他機關對但是他的商調了解的原因有些真的是因為家庭上的因素或是其他的因素他的主管都有去"},{"start":7232.947,"end":7251.316,"text":"他上吊他吊到那個單位有沒有自己降級才有辦法叫到那個單位有嘛對不對因為這個是有這個情形是有嘛是你說今年只有兩位你們在你們在中規組還有訓練組只有兩位而已嗎這兩組只有兩位今年對今年就兩位啊去年呢"},{"start":7255.567,"end":7277.677,"text":"那個在去年齁去年在評調到其他機關是有16位16位對評調到其他機關16位16位所以署本部這樣這一兩年來講總共已經提前退休然後調離現職然後明明總總啦反正就這樣加起來總共有幾位"},{"start":7279.5,"end":7299.854,"text":"我們大概如果以今年到目前大概有總共是36位這裡面含這個約用人員、臨時人員你什麼時候到今年?去年到今年是不是?只有今年只有今年就票了36位?36位阿去年有沒有辦法馬上做報告?對,去年有總共是有65位總共有65位嘛36加65,101嘛對不對你們離開了101"},{"start":7306.358,"end":7329.961,"text":"對老化署有期待的同仁,你覺得這樣正常嗎?組長你自己跟部長講,跟委員會講,你覺得這樣正常嗎?跟委員報告,因為他的離開的原因真的是很多啦,有些是退休,有些是考試,所以他有離開,他離開有這個原因,所以你認定是正常就對了?這每一位我們其實都不能看,就是說在職場上,在公部的職場上,他是一個算是一個正常的樣態,你要回答我是這樣是不是?"},{"start":7331.496,"end":7332.717,"text":"我要回到昨天記者會我看部長的說法裡面有一段話齁"},{"start":7348.205,"end":7374.975,"text":"認為有制度性人力缺乏問題是這樣嗎我想我在這個委會不只一次提起當然有人力缺乏的問題嘛所以我也希望部長要積極爭取這個人力的補給嘛但是如果像老花署這樣的單位自己的署本部單位兩年就掉了不到兩年就這樣請掉提前退休一百零一位然後我們再看到北分署"},{"start":7376.169,"end":7376.729,"text":"所以部長你講的系統性問題確實如此啊"},{"start":7406.84,"end":7427.348,"text":"確實如此啊那跟你制度性人力缺乏有什麼關係而且你知道喔北溫署是17個主管桃枝腰腰的你書本部有幾個主管還有副書長級的他需要提前退休還有幾個組長還有志願將級到地方公所去"},{"start":7436.101,"end":7448.166,"text":"誰會希望說在中央單位待好好又跑到地方的區公所去怎麼會有這個狀況部長你有深刻去理解、深刻去調查、深刻去知道到底原因何在嗎"},{"start":7449.765,"end":7472.401,"text":"委員我想喔就是這個管理風格的問題確實是要檢討啦是究竟是管理風格導致人留不住還是說這個勞動署本身是因為勞動條件太差這只有管理風格問題嗎如果是所謂的管理風格問題就會回到北溫署長的身上發生了這樣的憾事嗎在他的領導不統一之下嘛對不對"},{"start":7473.001,"end":7492.617,"text":"這就是當然就是署本身領導者的責任嘛當然署長他的管理風格恰不恰當我會要他檢討好嗎對我也在這一次也一遍把他送考機會了我們會在這裡面來檢討他好不好這是考機問題嗎當然考機裡面你管理不當也是一個問題啊也是一個評分的標準"},{"start":7496.708,"end":7510.903,"text":"從署本部一直到分署被分署發生這樣的事情它是考機問題嗎考機裡面包含了對你管理的這個你怎麼去管理這個機關這當然也是一個部長你到勞動部時間真的不長啊"},{"start":7512.064,"end":7530.326,"text":"我知道很多事情你還要再去摸索再去理解嘛但是有時候有一件有發生這樣的憾事反而可以讓你更快速的瞭解到勞動部上上下下到底出了什麼樣的嚴重性的問題嘛對不對但是有時候當你知道這問題所在的時候你就是該斷則斷了"},{"start":7534.661,"end":7555.195,"text":"該動就要折斷了如果這單純是一個領導統一出這個問題我覺得我覺得這樣的延伸會很可怕應該也不是只有勞化署因為時間的關係我們從勞化署的世界裡面可以看到勞動部真的是真的是很嚴重出現的結構性問題最後再給部長看一個數據我為什麼講113.446"},{"start":7563.038,"end":7575.089,"text":"我們都知道是81嘛,北溫署這兩年,不到兩年時間有81位的同仁,包含17位主管要調禮他其實他真正的數字是82了"},{"start":7578.038,"end":7599.552,"text":"就包含11月4號這位這位生命不見的同仁他也有要請調他也走不了因為他同仁寫這篇文章我不想護送請部長你自己過目我都有看如果他當時請調順利的話"},{"start":7602.674,"end":7622.568,"text":"他當時如果不要因為跟同仁彼此之間這種感情的羈絆稍停就對了或許他請掉離開他是有生命的離開他今天是他今天也算是離開了啦但是是生命喪失的離開"},{"start":7629.577,"end":7648.726,"text":"我最後是不是請銓敘部跟人事總處兩位單位來一下好不好你們這個一個單位、一個機關、一個機構人員異常的異動站在人事的管理上你們都沒有相關的預警機制嗎"},{"start":7651.517,"end":7673.556,"text":"還是都是後知後覺我們如果保障這個辛苦考進來的這些國考的這些公務人員可以在職場上得到一定程度的這樣的一個保障而不是因為他們的主管機關領導同意出了問題然後就讓這個單位可以好像幾乎快瓦解了"},{"start":7675.629,"end":7675.749,"text":"發言委員"},{"start":7706.129,"end":7734.814,"text":"你們上網公告是什麼資料?就是辭職,辭職嘛,啊調離的都沒有嗎?調離的部分我們現在正在跟,我們為了要讓資料更加精準,因為我們部裡面只有現在才要做?是因為這個事件才要做?不是,不是,在我們之前就已經在跟人事總處在密集的開會你們的之前是多久之前?從今年的6月份開始,我們就有在處理這件事情你們6月份到現在還沒有辦法把這樣的機制建立完成?"},{"start":7735.222,"end":7764.563,"text":"因為這個部分涉及到WebHR的這個系統的建構我們要把它在系統上面我們已經有樹花部了我們已經走到AI了創新行動內閣了你們從六月討論到現在連一個掌控所有單位的禮職的這樣的一個系統沒辦法建置起來現在正在努力啦我們大概預計是在明年會完成要到明年"},{"start":7765.43,"end":7784.738,"text":"因為這部分涉及到系統要徵修、要發包、要...你們有系統可以馬上查閱到離職的嘛,請辭的嘛,對不對你們有這個系統,然後要有另外一個系統,就是調職的還要到明年才能夠建設完成,而且從6月討論到現在"},{"start":7788.441,"end":7806.956,"text":"我們全序部的是全序審定的部分那人事總處那邊會有未被確保他有未送審人員這兩個系統加起來就可以把整個機關有送審還沒送審的人做一個完整的呈現那這兩個系統目前是不相容我們希望把他兩個系統能夠整合在一起所以到明年了我們盡量"},{"start":7810.031,"end":7839.198,"text":"要到明年 盡量希望能夠提前啦 這個部分我們不堅持很努力可以提前多早啊 時間到了 一個月可不可以一個月不行啦 那我到時候再拜託兩位召委我們再排特別針對你們的針對這些事情的整個疫情機制看怎樣來做回報好不好 OK一個月內我就請他們兩位召委一定要排來做這樣處理 好不好 好 謝謝"},{"start":7840.444,"end":7841.585,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝劉建國委員休息10分鐘"},{"start":7868.75,"end":7869.631,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8538.854,"end":8540.475,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 我們請黃秀芳委員質詢謝謝主席 我們請部長"},{"start":8559.306,"end":8585.171,"text":"委員好部長好部長我還是針對我們這個勞動部這個北分署霸凌的這個事件那我有看到你們的行政調查那我一個很好奇就是說這件事在11月4號發生那你們的調查竟然寫說11月8號你們是透過這個媒體才知道確實是這樣子嗎我看到的那個媒體對"},{"start":8587.031,"end":8588.451,"text":"媒體知道什麼?拿我們的那個報告給我一下好不好?"},{"start":8612.653,"end":8637.447,"text":"跟委員報告因為11月4號我們接獲訊息之後有跟家屬有聯繫那家屬跟我們強調說這個要低調處理是對所以一直都在處理這個當事人的狀況所以勞動部當時還不清楚我們已經都部長你是什麼時候知道這件事的"},{"start":8637.987,"end":8657.051,"text":"我11月4號就知道了當然當然當然我是看到你們的這個報告上面是這樣寫說勞動部是11月8號是透過這個社群媒體才知道這件事應該是說他那個敘述是11月8號社群媒體發文啦他從那邊開始敘述起啦就是11月8號社群媒體上有發文對然後"},{"start":8665.113,"end":8690.368,"text":"我們針對這個開始去進行了解所以你們時間11月4號發生的時候你們都完全沒有去了解為什麼這個同仁會選擇了斷自己這樣的一個事情那時候我們讓北分署跟老花署自己去調查因為他們跟家屬接觸的過程裡面家屬希望低調所以那時候應該都有進行溝通"},{"start":8691.989,"end":8712.824,"text":"另外一個就是說剛剛也有很多委員特別提到就是在今年的2月份基層在2月份都已經陳情了那這個王次長也有約談這個北分署的分署長就是說聽說是喝咖啡聊這件事那這件事後續好像就不了了之"},{"start":8713.985,"end":8734.486,"text":"好像也沒有做什麼樣的．甚至部長你說勞動部這邊完全都沒有這樣的一個案件存在嘛 對不對是事情發生之後．對我了解起來部裡沒有這樣的記錄．對那如果是這樣的話確實剛剛委員講的末梢神經真的是我覺得真的是出問題欸那你覺得為什麼"},{"start":8735.58,"end":8751.352,"text":"基層這個同仁都已經陳情了那為什麼都沒有列案呢這個就是因為當時陳情的對象是王安邦次長是對那為什麼王安邦次長沒有把他反映然後去列案這我不瞭解因為當時不是我誇張的就是"},{"start":8754.995,"end":8779.415,"text":"既然基層都已經陳情然後次長找這個署長這個北分署署長來談談完之後沒有處理也就罷了那這個分署長還就是要去找看是誰洩密那我覺得真的是這個我這件事情發生之後我真的非常希望就是我們勞動部甚至其他的部會一樣"},{"start":8781.604,"end":8808.917,"text":"真的要建立起一個基層員工基層同仁的這個陳情要有一個機制而不是陳情之後你又交給當事人又交給當事人去處理這件事你部長如果以你的話你覺得這樣妥當嗎當然不妥當對那未來如果還有這樣的事情發生你們要怎麼處理那絕對是也是也是徹查對啊要來那你們現在有建立一個機制了嗎"},{"start":8811.493,"end":8812.274,"text":"有押案、施案的狀況我們要如何處置?"},{"start":8830.58,"end":8850.712,"text":"我想委員就是對我們對於這個基層的同仁有申訴的話當然我們就是會尋這個什麼員工防護小組然後那看我們會進行調查調查之後然後看如何處理這個其實本來就有機制啦"},{"start":8851.092,"end":8861.111,"text":"阿機制你現在如果有機制的話怎麼會變成是次長次長又約分署長分署長後面再來說是誰洩密然後後面就不了了之阿不是這樣子嗎"},{"start":8863.291,"end":8891.959,"text":"委員對因為這不是正式他正因為是主要是次長當時也沒有去把他列案那我也不知道當時為什麼他沒有去列案這當然就無從處理啊會變這樣所以這是一個大也是一個大問題是沒有錯對可是當時就是沒有列案啊那那應該要詢問當事人為什麼當時沒有列案所以我覺得這個未來也是要是一個檢討的一個方向啦另外我想請教就是說剛剛也有委員特別提到"},{"start":8892.839,"end":8911.433,"text":"北分署長跟我們的那個許次長以前是同事嘛那你們列列的這個調查這個調查小組那很多的這個小組的成員跟這個可能跟北分署長這個可能關係也都不錯那如果說你成立這樣的一個調查小組來調查我覺得"},{"start":8913.615,"end":8936.5,"text":"因為基層也有很多人反映說其實這樣調查結果其實很多人也會覺得說跟事實可能有一些出路所以我也想要請部長針對這樣子的一個調查小組也許你們要成立這樣的調查小組你不知道說這個跟這個當事人是什麼樣的關係也許不知道如果知道之後我覺得你們應該也要做一個調整"},{"start":8938.206,"end":8962.739,"text":"對委員就是說其實我們的所有政務官都會秉公辦理的啦不應該去就是說好避險當然為了利益迴避我當時請許傳聖次長其實因為許傳聖次長雖然有跟謝分署長有過舊事可是他也沒有跟他有直接的聯繫啦所以而且許傳聖次長本身就督導勞派署"},{"start":8963.76,"end":8976.489,"text":"只有他才了解這個體系的問題這是為什麼我會請他召集的原因對這體制上也是必須如此啊我總不能越過他請別的次長去召集調查這個是我的困難是請您能夠諒解這樣那當然"},{"start":8981.058,"end":8997.285,"text":"那當然這個後來這個網路上爆料說認為說這個許長勝次長跟謝分署長有舊事可是說真的對我的認知我也不認為許次長是一位會徇私的人啦他也是蠻公正蠻大公無私的"},{"start":8997.865,"end":9024.661,"text":"那所以他才有這個來當我們的次長嗎所以部長這件事其實我會覺得說這個你們從上到下真的確實真的要好好的檢討如果說一個員工如果從一個這個同仁可以這樣子長期時間我剛剛看就是說你們這個單位就是他有公務人員的身份就只有一位其他都是承染人員嗎"},{"start":9025.902,"end":9048.18,"text":"那如果是這樣的話我剛剛我有聽部長講說確實要從根本去做一些改進如果全部都是這樣子的話全部的壓力都是在這個公務人員身上那我不知道說你們目前有多少業務是大部分都是承染就是全部都外包出去你們自己有做一個統計嗎我想請署長回答好不好"},{"start":9053.513,"end":9077.636,"text":"跟委員報告我們方案署因為業務真的是非常龐雜我們現在編制人力就是我們正式公務員大概只有700多位我們的業用人員就是臨時人員大概1000多位其他我們大概現在有接近2000位的承攬人力也就是我們每4位只有一位正式公務員其實這個業務其實跟我們人力的編制的結構其實非常的落差非常大"},{"start":9078.537,"end":9106.495,"text":"這部分我們覺得這也是必須要去檢討所以這個確實是從根本真的我覺得真的要好好的去做檢討啦可能也要跟行政院這邊真的確實把這麼重要然後你說四位四位就只有一位是公務人員其他可能就是承攬的就是非常的誇張啦而且照道理如果根據法律的話根據那法規的話每一個分署都應該要一個正式的治安人員是"},{"start":9107.815,"end":9125.326,"text":"對,結果我這一位離開的同仁他本身還是勞法署派來的是兼任的是他不是北分署正式的編制喔那顯然就是我們每一個分署其實也都缺乏一位正式的治安人員那我們的治安業務量又非常非常龐大因為後來"},{"start":9127.687,"end":9155.04,"text":"這兩三年來包括很多外部會的要求對所以都是非常累積啦對非常累積性的確實我覺得說真的勞法署剛剛署長講的業務非常的龐大那不只是勞動部勞法署其實其他單位應該也都是有類似這樣的一個狀況所以我接下來我是不是可以請這個今天人事人事這邊應該有"},{"start":9156.421,"end":9168.531,"text":"有過來嗎今天人事處人總不是是我們今天沒有那個行政院這邊的好"},{"start":9175.168,"end":9198.076,"text":"行政總處是不是可以針對所有公務體系、公務機關、公務人員或者是各單位、公務人員或者是承攬,你們自己有去做一個統計嗎?到底有多少的單位,然後確實有人力的需求,可是就因為人力不足,所以就需要用承攬或用約聘僱這樣的一個方式。"},{"start":9199.433,"end":9223.919,"text":"報告委員我想說首先還是要講一下其實我們要運用哪一種人力類型其實都是要看照他的那個工作的那個內容還有他指揮監督的必要性那當然理解發展署他目前的人力結構有三種比如說像職員、約用或是他們的承攬人力但是相信他們應該都是基於工作的需要去選擇他們要的人力類型比如說是不是可能"},{"start":9224.699,"end":9251.972,"text":"也要了解一下發展署他們現在在承攬人力上他們大概都是請他們做什麼樣的工作對就是說承攬承攬的人員其實你也不能賦予他很大的一個責任啊是對啊所以我我覺得這個真的是從根本要去做一個解決今天會發生這樣的事情第一個可能也許工作量真的確實非常的大那再來就是說職場的霸凌我也同意就是說"},{"start":9253.353,"end":9263.412,"text":"真的勞動部這邊真的要從根本去做一個解決如果今天不做不從根本做一個解決我覺得這個還是會有第二件的這樣的類似的狀況來發生"},{"start":9266.055,"end":9286.48,"text":"那我也希望就是說這個這邊我們人事總處這邊真的確實也要反映所有的公務單位如果真的需要正式的公務人員就是說有需要的話你就是真的要把它編制下去而不是用承攬的那承攬的所有的壓力就全部在這個機關這個單位剛剛講的這個單位"},{"start":9291.282,"end":9310.116,"text":"資訊單位這個資訊是就只有一個公務就是正式的公務人員其他都是這個承攬人員所以我覺得說把所有的壓力都放在這個這個正式的公務人員身上其實我也覺得說真的非常的不合適所以我覺得是所有人事體系應該要全部做一個總體檢"},{"start":9313.456,"end":9340.633,"text":"其實發展署他們本身是有資訊式的就我們了解但是目前各分署他是沒有資訊單位那看到按照他的發展所的組織法規看起來他們的資訊業務應該都是偏向向上級中到三級發展署那所以這塊就是其實還是看看我們可以看看發展署他們怎麼去因為這件事情然後去檢討他們內部的就是比如說像他們的資源配置跟人力配置"},{"start":9340.913,"end":9341.113,"text":"王振旭委員"},{"start":9371.552,"end":9375.614,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩勞動部和部長"},{"start":9382.864,"end":9403.384,"text":"部長好我想一位年輕公務員之死會引起全國這麼大的軒然之波應該是超過預期造成的影響那看了部長的這些過程跟所做的報告大家認為還是有需要麻煩部長"},{"start":9406.307,"end":9421.122,"text":"繼續針對這位年輕公務員之死要有更多的檢討也希望能夠做出更妥善的因應跟處理這是一開始的時候要請部長針對這個過程希望給國人有更好的一個交代"},{"start":9422.143,"end":9447.904,"text":"今天要跟部長討論兩個事情首先是簡單的帶過勞工健康檢查資料跟預防醫學的部分第二部分就是針對這個個案其實牽涉的範圍非常的廣泛包括公務人員的休假時間的保障跟心理輔導的資源能不能夠將來有機會去避免這樣類似的案件再度的發生"},{"start":9449.465,"end":9466.095,"text":"有關於這個勞工健檢資料的落實用以來作為慢性病防治的可行性我們期待的是從目前的這個政策跟執行裡面我們知道所有的僱主要僱用勞工的時候一開始都要施行體科檢查"},{"start":9467.216,"end":9495.625,"text":"那在他在職的時候呢都需要後續的健康檢查那這個健康檢查他有相關的資料呢最後都要報告到這個主管機關來做核定或是被查那我們很期待這些的資料如果將來可以跟衛福部這邊有更好的連結讓衛福部在推動888健康計畫的時候能夠運用這樣的資料讓全民的"},{"start":9496.725,"end":9497.206,"text":"當然當然,我們會來跟衛福部討論"},{"start":9517.319,"end":9539.653,"text":"好 那我們等一下臨時提案也會把這部分請大家共同來確認好的好 那第二部分呢就是有關於剛剛所提到的這個公務人員的自殺大家不知道還有沒有印象其實在106年107年的時候考試院全序部就曾經做過報告"},{"start":9540.914,"end":9560.144,"text":"在當年公務人員的五大死因裡面第一項是癌症第二項是心臟疾病第三項就是自殺那當年自殺有14人高居第三位那從占比來看公務人員跟一般的民眾比起來"},{"start":9561.064,"end":9589.973,"text":"他是有三倍之多所以很顯然這個是一個很重要的問題在106、107年都有相關的資料很可惜的是後來就沒有相關資料持續的披露那這部分我們不知道未來有沒有機會再做相關的披露那當然這個需要請考試院或全序部來做這部分資料的披露那"},{"start":9591.314,"end":9606.344,"text":"抱歉我可不可以先請教一下我們這個程序部有沒有長官可以來麻煩針對這部分程序部後續可以做哪一些的內容的披露嗎"},{"start":9607.245,"end":9636.396,"text":"報告委員 這個部裡面有統計到今年的8月為止因為有一些這個自殺的腐敘的案件呢它報送的程序會大概要1到2個月的一個落差所以我們統計到今年的8月大概就我們的觀察從106、107乃至於到2012和今年的8月之前每年的人數沒有太大的變化大約一年當中都是在20來人左右"},{"start":9637.136,"end":9651.907,"text":"那今年1到8月是17人,所以數字上沒有增加或是減緩的趨勢是,還有個案了解他自殺的原因或者是有沒有潛在可能跟今天的個案有類似的可能性的機會"},{"start":9653.651,"end":9678.06,"text":"因為報到我們部裡面來的我們就是針對自殺除非機關會報送說是要因公的這個自殺案件那不然一般的自殺案件就是用病故或意外死亡那所以我們看不出來他的原因那如果報了因公的案件我們才會去探究說他這樣的自殺是不是跟這個職務上的一個壓力或者是說過勞有關"},{"start":9679.58,"end":9684.111,"text":"那這樣的案件報送過來的並不多大概都是用一般的病或意外死亡報送過來"},{"start":9686.294,"end":9709.131,"text":"聽起來有點不是很完整所以我相信我會持續的針對這些內容做進一步的了解看未來如果我們可以避免或者是我剛剛所提到的這個宣傳大波如果我們能夠從這些個案裡面去檢討希望能夠避免未來持續發生類似的個案好 謝謝謝偉"},{"start":9711.272,"end":9736.729,"text":"那其實勞動部本身然後包括這個何部長我們在勞動部裡面也看到說有提撥相關的這個持續推動員工協助的方案那每一年呢是會有這個有45萬元的這個預算那這部分其實以前勞動部做的成績還蠻好的因為我們這個從行政院的人事行政總處看到歷年的得獎"},{"start":9737.89,"end":9762.587,"text":"告訴我們說其實至少在110年的時候勞動部還是得到優等獎那我不清楚的就是說我們在得獎的這個呃呈現裡面跟後面我們所聽到的這種落差未來勞動部本身應該有什麼樣的一種自我檢討的可能性"},{"start":9764.548,"end":9777.435,"text":"謝謝委員我昨天在記者會我有提到就是其實即便連今年我們的員工EAP方案都還是優等的那可是很當然就不幸的發生這樣的事情那也凸顯"},{"start":9778.916,"end":9802.05,"text":"我們這個實際落實上是不是也有問題那當然所以我們也啟動了這一個要精進的方案其實從我本來就規劃從明年開始現在已經正在辦採購就是希望及時提供心理醫師心理諮商以及精神科醫師就醫的實際支持就說你打電話去馬上就找得到"},{"start":9802.63,"end":9803.511,"text":"職場上面那個員工之間"},{"start":9830.512,"end":9852.447,"text":"同仁之間能不能彼此分享支持然後能夠遇到問題然後甚至能幫忙轉介然後及時就醫甚至一個最重要的要克服那一種汙名化的問題我想委員您是醫師您非常清楚到精神科就醫至今在臺灣還是被汙名化的"},{"start":9853.067,"end":9874.856,"text":"所以這是一個很嚴重的大家都不重視心理衛生的狀態所以你有這一種甚至你有自殺的念頭事實上那本來就應該就醫了那其實是應該要去就醫的謝謝部長這樣的回答我相信所有的單位不管是在哪一個機關都應該有類似的機制存在才有辦法讓"},{"start":9875.996,"end":9888.62,"text":"所有的同仁都能夠得到彼此之間的支持跟互相的關懷不過有關於上一次有跟部長所質詢的離線權的問題離線權的確那個時候部長也有討論到說因為已經有相當的規範告訴我們在於"},{"start":9897.522,"end":9913.34,"text":"勞工針對僱主非正常的工作時間要求要隨時來恢復相關的這個主管的要求的時候其實是可以透過這種勞資的協商方式而比較難法制化"},{"start":9914.922,"end":9928.757,"text":"發生這樣的事情我相信跟離線權之間是否能夠有效的法制化還是有關聯性所以期待我們能夠麻煩部長這邊尤其是其他的勞動階層有機會繼續來考慮法制化的部分"},{"start":9934.784,"end":9957.482,"text":"這部分當然我們很期待勞動部要持續的來加強這個勞資雙方對於勞工下班被要求工作的這個權利跟規範要更多大力的宣導因為很有可能大家對這樣的這種離線權的這種處理模式還不是非常清楚這個部分也麻煩部長能夠持續來演繹"},{"start":9959.864,"end":9969.417,"text":"那當然除了勞工朋友以外其實公務人員能不能有類似的比照未來在離線權的部分"},{"start":9970.854,"end":9990.339,"text":"如何能夠有權來拒絕主管在非正常的工作時間裡面的工作要求那這部分可能就需要人事總處或者是考試院這邊是不是有什麼指引或有協商的機制來處理這個公務人員離線權這部分的處理模式"},{"start":9997.219,"end":10018.388,"text":"報告委員依據公務員服務法我們目前的規範的精神因為公務員現在它是跟國家是公法上的職務關係那一般來講就是要提供民眾的不間斷的公共服務所以在下班時間如果真的有急要的公務的話我們還是必須要做處理"},{"start":10019.068,"end":10040.708,"text":"所以我們之前在研修服務法的時候確實也有考量到離線權這樣的一個趨勢但是因為在公部門的部分它有提供公共服務的這樣的一個需求所以離線權這個部分可能要再進一步的觀察才能夠考量是不是要在公務部門放進服務法的規範"},{"start":10042.469,"end":10059.567,"text":"是 這個可以理解不過也希望能夠未來在要件的部分可以更明確一些您剛剛所提到的內容是大家都可以理解的所以這部分也麻煩考試院、全序部跟人事總處能不能針對這部分再多演繹好 謝謝"},{"start":10065.643,"end":10074.37,"text":"好 謝謝王委員那接續我們請林業勤委員執行邱正軍委員執行完畢之後我們處理臨時提案有請何部長跟那個雷司長"},{"start":10103.342,"end":10119.773,"text":"會長早上應該都一直被問了因為11月4號發生這些事情我想大家都很難過可是事件之後也有民眾向我們辦公室在陳情表示這名公務人員本來他在生前就遭受到職場霸凌他定調是這樣"},{"start":10121.234,"end":10148.625,"text":"而且他正在研擬一份該屬的政府的標案,過程當中不斷的受到推薦,為了滿足主管要求就反復修,那當然就會產生了很多公實的問題。所以想問部長這邊,雖然剛剛修方委員有問過,你們11月4號發生這件事情,自殺、死亡事件,那勞動部什麼時候開始做調查?還有是不是等到新聞才有動作?我講的是調查。"},{"start":10151.479,"end":10180.618,"text":"嗯,這並不是等到新聞才有動作的,而是本來才有動作對,什麼時候我們開始啟動調查對,我們是11月8號11月8號才開始啟動調查那再續問部長,因為按照我們的自殺防治法第11條這個事件發生後,勞動部有沒有主動跟自殺防治通報系統做通報或是有報警或警察做通報當時有報警有沒有跟我們的自殺防治的這個通報系統做通報"},{"start":10181.564,"end":10185.186,"text":"在事發的時候我們北分署的人事室主任跟秘書室主任"},{"start":10209.144,"end":10209.164,"text":"好．"},{"start":10228.735,"end":10245.384,"text":"部長想問一下按照我們的自殺防治法第6條第一項規定的防治工作裡邊我不知道勞動部有沒有弱勢就是你們辦理的自殺防治教育裡邊參加同仁占比例有多少還有你們有提供心理諮商的管道嗎每年的使用人數"},{"start":10249.81,"end":10250.67,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":10281.707,"end":10298.562,"text":"上本案重從民眾來提到的時候他就是有超時工作上部長剛剛前面有委員質詢你也講說打假卡的問題表示他們工作量真的很大他只好呢先符合你們勞動法相關法規先去打了卡又再"},{"start":10299.522,"end":10318.799,"text":"繼續回來工作甚至下班後還要回覆訊息有時候假日真的是還沒有登記的時候還是回去工作所以我先問全序部這種未經登記自行加班的狀況對公務人員特別是地方政府局處部會人員以及各級機關辦理這樣的採購業務或是計算薪資終點的人員這種狀況你們有去了解嗎"},{"start":10325.645,"end":10346.144,"text":"我可不可以借一點時間我稍微澄清一下其實我們部裡絕對不允許是不允許員工這樣打假卡沒有這個是不允許的可是工作量多到這種狀況的時候你要叫他怎麼辦呢這就是問題所以這就是我們這位員工真的太令人不捨"},{"start":10347.445,"end":10375.069,"text":"對,他真的太...那你有沒有關心到主管就是交給他太多太多的工作以致於他沒有辦法負荷啊這就是我們要去檢討的地方可是我是說制度上打假卡是不對的那我們也不允許這樣的行為可是卻存在這樣的行為這是我們要檢討的地方是,我覺得如果勞動部都做不到的話你不用講說其他的企業都常有這樣的狀況了因為你是一個主管機關欸是,當然當然好,那群聚部"},{"start":10378.024,"end":10399.857,"text":"根據公務員服務法第12條的規定加班它的定義其實是長官基於業務需要指派同仁在正常的上班時間以外延長工作時間那這樣的定義的之下其實是長官指派同仁才可以做加班的動作那當然我們也了解公務同仁有一些"},{"start":10400.457,"end":10407.983,"text":"主管要去關懷同仁知道同仁的工作情況之下主管就要去調整工作好讓同仁不要超時的加班我們是希望達成這樣的效果"},{"start":10429.298,"end":10452.131,"text":"市長不是員工要超時他勢必就變成要這樣因為工作量大到這樣的時候你要叫他有些像這個標案還有急迫性的那他死的他就是必須要去做那一樣問全序部這邊公益加班事前要上系統去申請可是主管不許可的話怎麼辦可以申請請你們現在去指導嗎"},{"start":10453.688,"end":10479.084,"text":"這個部分是因為它是屬於這個機關的行政管理措施如果同仁就是有不服這個或是覺得不恰當的話他可以去進行申訴走申訴的這樣一個流程好你說用走申訴那另外我要問加班費是事前編列如果請完為止的話剩下的時數強迫補休可是沒時間休啊因為工作量大這樣年底一筆勾銷那這個問題是很多年討論多年了怎麼解決"},{"start":10480.536,"end":10500.812,"text":"公務員報告因為這部分是在公務員保障法有規範那我這邊就是待會回答一下如果說是這個加班時數不能用這個加班費來補償的話那就是會進到用平時的獎勵的方式喔大概透過一段時間因為我周遭真的不管是親人朋友都有很多共敵"},{"start":10501.392,"end":10518.435,"text":"每次這個超過的通通都是算自願奉獻給國家以外那種過時的勞力人真的是會很崩潰的是面對到這樣的一個工作環境對外已經對民眾的很多的要求對內有一些工作量這麼大他怎麼能夠去"},{"start":10519.738,"end":10547.723,"text":"滿足所以就很遺憾全系部還是沒有講出一些積極的作為來處理那過去我們去看111的人力銀行的調查裡面83%的上班族都曾經遭遇到霸凌尤其是職屬機關職屬的主管占了44%蠻高的慣用的手法有時候是用言語那甚至有時候女性遭遇到職場霸凌的比例有時候是高出於男性"},{"start":10548.283,"end":10566.646,"text":"暴漢政府部門,我也不知道說政府部門到底有沒有去處理,你們還是一個主管機關,要去管這個,那反而是沒有特別去處理,所以我就要問,再來問全序部,就是說因為霸凌事實上意思是加害人對被害人從事觸犯"},{"start":10567.126,"end":10567.166,"text":"職場霸凌"},{"start":10588.188,"end":10616.755,"text":"全序部現行機制又是公務人員如果不符機關職場霸凌成立與否的決定的話得依保障法循序那個申訴和再申訴程序再提起我們的行政訴訟程序那這個程序上有準施法的地位據機關跟申訴人雙方權利平等的原則在保障我們的法的機制底下應允許人委託我們的律師協助你同意嗎"},{"start":10618.305,"end":10629.366,"text":"報告委員因為這部分涉及到保障法的規範是不是請公衛保障培訓委員會來那這個階段是不是應該引進我們的法律輔助的制度來依當事人的意願提出申請"},{"start":10631.997,"end":10650.493,"text":"報告委員有關那個職場霸凌的救濟的部分是由保訓會主管那保訓會在審理的時候公務人員本來就可以請律師作為他的代理人那之後不符我們的決定依現況也可以去提行相應的行政訴訟"},{"start":10654.465,"end":10683.224,"text":"好再來想問勞動部部長這邊本席知道勞動部早在104年就便制定了勞動部員工安全跟衛生防護要點那依據勞動部的分工表人身安全項目全責在各施處這設計能夠落實申訴機制嗎是可以的可以嗎有人敢申訴嗎一年有多少件"},{"start":10684.298,"end":10703.809,"text":"那為何不在本部建立統一窗口解決過度內部礙於人情壓力難以使用的問題報告委員現在這個職場霸凌都是人事單位來做處理那我們今年也有接獲一件職場霸凌"},{"start":10705.967,"end":10727.326,"text":"可是我們齁這是我們辦公室接到的齁這就是勞動部的回覆說啊你的申訴我收到啦齁僱主有設置辦法嗎沒有的話請告訴我啊你需要看醫生嗎齁可以提書送啊找專人服務請找什麼什麼如果你們對外部的企業就這樣的話那我不知道對內部到底會怎麼做"},{"start":10727.807,"end":10727.867,"text":"同意嗎"},{"start":10754.059,"end":10755.04,"text":"職場霸凌保障暨培訓委員"},{"start":10769.026,"end":10769.907,"text":"報告委員我們接到申訴案件"},{"start":10787.987,"end":10790.148,"text":"所以勞動部可不可以在一個月內會商地方政府將我們的職場霸凌案件列為勞資爭議處理項目"},{"start":10818.532,"end":10820.973,"text":"我們會後來研究,然後給您報告,可以嗎?我覺得不是走外部"},{"start":10846.937,"end":10847.037,"text":"主席"},{"start":10862.219,"end":10882.227,"text":"全旭部建立公務機關建立再申訴的制度跟委託法律輔助基金會來做外部的申訴那至於我們的勞動部這邊是不是可以請我們的勞工局處在受理職場霸凌事件的時候作為我們的勞資爭議的調處那一週內提供書面資料好以上謝謝"},{"start":10888.948,"end":10892.192,"text":"主席好我們先請我們蔡孟良署長"},{"start":10912.058,"end":10938.448,"text":"市長好我想謝宜龍從部長專委跳到分署組長直接高升分署長是在您跟許民春前部長的推薦下搭直升機上去的嗎是在我任內也是嘛所以也是你推薦的嘛是所以但同時也讓我們北區分署的同仁你知道這件他升上去之後就讓我們北區分署的同仁掉到地獄去了"},{"start":10939.588,"end":10962.588,"text":"身為我們謝宜龍的直屬長官阿你認為你歷屆分署長這樣的霸凌行為是不是要以考記法第12條規定來計兩大過來懲處報告委員這個案子因為調查結果我們這個本部會有一個考記委員的程序在你把他推上去之前你知道他是一個潛在的一個暴君嗎你知道嗎"},{"start":10964.496,"end":10990.399,"text":"在2023年他2月上任到現在北分署滿編才102人他離退率竟然高達8成其中有17位是主管職主任編制有11個離職離職的9位那科長編制6個離職的5位再加上兩位股長、一位廠長你認為他還有資格留在公務體系嗎?"},{"start":10994.25,"end":11022.367,"text":"這個案子因為調查結果也確實他有他的一些霸凌的行為他高調的跟大家說他背後很硬他後台很硬那現在看起來真的是還是蠻硬的你認為他現在調職之後他不會去霸凌其他的同事嗎?還是你不敢講你也被霸凌過?這個案子因為部長他大概已經也決定做調令廢除官職我們銓敘部有的代表人來嗎?"},{"start":11028.049,"end":11052.567,"text":"考機法是你的這個管轄範圍我不是問個案就像這樣引發社會的高度關注、行為不檢嚴重影響政府機關的這個生育的情況是不是符合這個考機法第12條規定包委員因為我們法條是這樣的一個構成要件那是不是符合構成要件那要看機關的通過考機會那部長部長請何部長"},{"start":11056.653,"end":11074.156,"text":"你考機會什麼時候開我會在最快的時間召開好我現在除了這樣子送考機會那我想問部長涉及形式的部分如恐假如譬如說例如恐嚇毀謗攻壤侮辱甚至是傷害這個部分有送檢調嗎"},{"start":11075.396,"end":11093.733,"text":"會 我會送檢調 也會送公務人員懲戒委員會好 那我再問 你們去查過的申訴系統 沒發現所謂二月的申訴案件嗎沒有有沒有發現對你剛剛不是承認我們的王次長有過去他有去查過嘛 對不對我聽說我聽說 對"},{"start":11097.212,"end":11122.792,"text":"我現在嚴重懷疑那個王部長他現在不是請辭了嗎他請辭了是那有人說啦他因為這件事約談過後他就請辭了我覺得他是不是跟這個無關跟這個無關因為他是如果他真的有約談那是2月他請辭是9月了對啊他是不是受到壓力了請辭是我任內的事他是不是受到壓力之後就沒辦法處理覺得心非常累蛤"},{"start":11126.857,"end":11145.971,"text":"我說他心裡非常累沒辦法去處理告你有沒有去查過他跟他這件事有什麼關係?他離開的時候我也發了感謝他的新聞稿大家應該都有看到我非常感謝他幫我的忙而且幫我建置了所有的幕僚對他協助我非常多我這樣講啦我們看到你的報告你們的處理報告"},{"start":11146.952,"end":11158.124,"text":"北分署長對整體同仁有職場霸凌且情節重大這是你們講的但卻又說北分署長沒有對親生員工直接霸凌這樣這句話什麼意思"},{"start":11160.691,"end":11183.936,"text":"對 主要是北分署長跟離開的員工之間還隔著兩個主管一個副分署長 一個秘書室主任這兩個才是直接督導他這個計畫的北分署長沒有直接接觸他所以他沒有直接對他形成霸凌所以你們就是告訴大家我霸凌了全部的人但是他受不了"},{"start":11185.211,"end":11193.588,"text":"你的報告就是這樣嗎?我想是這樣,就是說,他的,可是他透過一層一層這樣傳導,應該這個離開的團體也有感受到被霸凌啦。"},{"start":11194.643,"end":11221.531,"text":"應該是這樣子啦可是我真的是無法證實說所以我覺得你們的報告讓我們的臺灣的這些勞工完全對勞動部完全沒有信心也真的非常的失望那因為你們報告裡面有講說這位同仁很認真有壓力自己扛對不對有困難不會求援好像講的又很漂亮的話來責怪這一個親身的這位同仁"},{"start":11223.237,"end":11234.095,"text":"對不對 這讓人家非常不能接受你懂我意思嗎公務人員的僱主就是政府你們的調查報告就是宣布勞動部不會保護勞工是這樣嗎這不是很諷刺嗎"},{"start":11237.267,"end":11256.059,"text":"委員我的報告其實就是為了能夠還給這位離開的同仁一個公道啦就是說我們要還原就是說他真正的離開的原因那我再問一下現在發現這個事情我們的分署長不用出來道歉嗎?我道歉還沒看到他一定要一定要一定要所以他什麼時候出來道歉"},{"start":11257.025,"end":11279.037,"text":"我們會要求他在最快的時間出來道歉好嗎?我希望他應該要出來面對才對,你們不能把他藏在後面,不能說因為你的壓力很大別人壓力就不大嗎?對不對?所以我這個部分我請部長這邊你要趕快處理好不好?不要這個事情越怨惡越大。然後我再問就是說"},{"start":11280.97,"end":11301.629,"text":"我們北區分屬同仁就算沒有求救那內部控管還是可以發現問題因為這非常不正常你將近八成的人調離原單位這個問題你們沒有發現嗎我覺得這事情是可以挽救的可以不讓它發生的可是今天偏偏發生了我們才發現這個問題"},{"start":11305.485,"end":11321.689,"text":"這就是我們的疏忽我昨天在記者會也是為什麼會致歉也是這個原因我們人事單位我想請人事行政總處我們這邊有來嘛像人事單位我們是不是應該追蹤類似這樣的一個我們離職的流動控管有沒有做之前有沒有做"},{"start":11328.512,"end":11351.485,"text":"這個我們在相關的工時管理或者是員工消費方案我們是會提醒就是說因為這個人員的工時或者是人員簽調來講因為這個是內部管理所以這個部分確實就是說在日常的人員管理上面是對啦我是問你有沒有追蹤不要講那麼多有沒有以前沒做嘛對不對"},{"start":11352.628,"end":11369.632,"text":"我們是有在相關宣導作業裡面以後會不會如果碰到這種問題會不會主動介入去了解我們會來或者是提醒提醒我們各單位對吧這個非常不正常整個北分署的人都換掉了好不好我們請人事行政總署這邊注意一下那另外"},{"start":11380.762,"end":11407.134,"text":"我們北區分署絕大部分都是適用於勞基法的勞工而調查報告證明北分署同仁勞動條件不佳又有職場霸凌工時過長同仁還陳情加班不給加班費先打卡上下班下班再加班還要24小時待命回覆長官的LINE那本席在這邊要求我們請職安署馬上啟動對"},{"start":11409.317,"end":11414.969,"text":"這個北分署的勞動檢查及職場霸凌調查可以嗎?請問職安署同不同意?我們會協同"},{"start":11419.275,"end":11421.135,"text":"我們勞動部是保護勞工不受職場霸凌的第一線公務部門"},{"start":11446.408,"end":11446.428,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":11474.822,"end":11503.085,"text":"謝謝部長、謝謝邱偉仁我們現在處理臨時提案現在處理臨時提案總共有五個案請一併先讀第一案落實慢性病防治除有助保障國人健康亦有力降低整體醫療成本及健保支出原此請勞動部就勞工健檢結果相關資料"},{"start":11503.826,"end":11522.381,"text":"作為國家執行慢性病防治政策參考依據之可行性會同衛生福利部啟動相關研議並於兩個月內將研議結果及未來規劃送立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提案人委員王振旭聯署人委員林淑芬、林月琴第二案"},{"start":11523.321,"end":11540.022,"text":"謝宜榮分署長種種行為以涉嫌違反《公務員懲戒法》相關規範原要求勞動部長依《公務員懲戒法》第24條等相關條文將謝宜榮分署長送請監察院調查另應過去國防部發生洪仲秋遭長官霸凌事件"},{"start":11541.063,"end":11569.493,"text":"當時國防部自請調查結果與檢察官後來所調查事實全然不符是以要求勞動部不應再進行內部調查並主動將本案移送地檢署偵辦提案人委員陳昭芝、聯署人委員王玉敏、陳金輝第三案有鑒於11月初勞動部勞動力發展署北分署無姓公務員疑似因遭遭到分署長謝怡榮職場霸凌與辦公室親身一案"},{"start":11571.031,"end":11598.697,"text":"勞動部調查結果避重就輕將此悲劇歸責於員工自己的問題原此要求立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會做成決議退回該調查報告並重啟調查同時引進外部調查機制如加入第三方公證人士令謝原因立即停止處分並移送監察院及公務員懲戒委員會如情節重大者將撤職查辦永不再任公職提案人委員"},{"start":11599.677,"end":11616.669,"text":"陳金輝、陳昭芝、蘇清泉、王育敏、廖偉祥第4案有鑒於勞動部勞動力發展署、北基、宜花、金馬分署絕大多數是適用勞基法的勞工而勞動部調查報告亦證明北分署同仍有勞動條件不佳、工時過長"},{"start":11617.85,"end":11636.248,"text":"工作量過重的情形．並認定謝芬署長涉及職場霸凌且情節重大．原要求勞動部職業安全衛生署應立即啟動檢查北分署勞工的勞動條件及調查職場霸凌事件提案人委員邱振軍、王育敏、陳清輝、廖偉祥"},{"start":11636.929,"end":11665.872,"text":"第5案有鑒於北分署長謝宜榮職場霸凌導致員工自殺身亡然而勞動部113年勞動力發展署北基宜化金馬分署疑似涉及職場霸凌事件行政調查說明資料竟然只是行政調查避重就輕而不是啟動霸凌調查原要求退回勞動部調查報告於3日內重新改寫報告提案人委員蘇清泉、陳金輝、王育敏、廖偉祥宣讀完畢"},{"start":11670.407,"end":11674.698,"text":"好請問第一案行政單位有沒有意見委員有沒有意見"},{"start":11684.748,"end":11703.744,"text":"跟委員報告剛才跟那個王委員溝通在第一案的部分在第三段第二行有關衛生服務衛生主管機關委員同意修正為有關醫勞工健檢相關資料刪除衛生主管機關字眼"},{"start":11707.523,"end":11714.226,"text":"同意那第一案就修改後通過第一案有沒有意見"},{"start":11729.105,"end":11740.318,"text":"就是最後倒數第二行要求勞動部不應再進行內部調查那個不應再進行內部調查因為前面就是說我們其實"},{"start":11741.707,"end":11758.481,"text":"本來就是這個部分是不是可以拿掉我們會主動將本案移送地檢署我們本來就不會在因為這個本來就已經經過內部調查了啦就是現在已經內部調查過了嘛那是不是接下來我們應該主動將本案移送地檢署比較重要這樣子"},{"start":11763.86,"end":11780.757,"text":"就是那一段就刪掉就對了就不應該進行那一部調查並拿掉對是是這我們可以對沒有問題好那好修正通過來第三案是國民黨黨團提出來的有沒有意見"},{"start":11782.959,"end":11796.709,"text":"是容我這個說明就是退回該調查報告並重啟調查同時引進外部調查機制如加入第三方公證人士這一段這個容我這個就是說"},{"start":11799.279,"end":11824.577,"text":"因為我這個調查報告本身也是外部專家主導的他是目前人也不在對 那麼就是說這個部分要重啟調查說真的因為我們有外部專家本來就有外部專家那我也得尊重他們的意見他願不願意協同我們來一起重啟調查是不是能夠讓我們有一是不是這一段先"},{"start":11825.538,"end":11831.461,"text":"陳清花委員有在嗎?來嗎?我先講一下我先講一下好你先講一下那個"},{"start":11852.626,"end":11876.367,"text":"國民黨黨團的這個提案主要目的是你們的調查報告其實現在大家有些聲音因為調查不夠徹底像我剛剛問你的問題包括就是說這一位無性的工作人員他從多久他就開始是這樣子凌晨五點就上班你們也回答不出來"},{"start":11878.004,"end":11880.126,"text":"整個實質的狀況其實你們並沒有徹底調查還有剛剛大家在講二月份的時候到底這個次長有沒有約談分署長你們現在給的資訊也是不夠清晰你說你要另外再立案"},{"start":11893.718,"end":11912.076,"text":"這些其實都是整個的調查應該要涵蓋的範圍,包括委員他有沒有過勞,他過勞他的整個狀態是什麼,我覺得你們沒有提供得很清楚。還有就是到底分屬的同仁從什麼時候就開始,就是已經去投訴。"},{"start":11913.357,"end":11929.783,"text":"然後勞動部什麼時候從什麼時間點知道這件事而勞動部做了什麼這個部分其實也都沒有交代所以我覺得這一些你們這一次的調查報告的確是不夠深入那如果現在要以招供性的話因為"},{"start":11930.943,"end":11954.64,"text":"現在外界要的是真相我是建議部長啦你其實有第三方公正人士進去調查其實對你們反而是有利的因為你這一份報告大家已經覺得是不夠詳盡的調查那你如果再經由重組你的這個外聘的專家而且剛剛也有你們民進黨的委員在質疑次長是不是適合擔任召集人"},{"start":11955.961,"end":11976.307,"text":"他可能不適合那你可能要找一個第三方公正的專家學者他來主持這整個的調查委員會重新再調查那我覺得你重新再產製出來的這份報告才可以已遭公信社會也才覺得這個真相是真的有理性"},{"start":11976.907,"end":11994.938,"text":"因為到目前為止就是昨天雖然部長你跟次長出來開了記者會但是這個疑慮這個聲音還是很大今天你可以看到各媒體的輿論反應是這樣那我覺得唯有真相可以說服大家真相是什麼然後你們真正的檢討我覺得這件事情才會過去所以你剛剛提到說什麼委員會不會同意"},{"start":11997.299,"end":12025.016,"text":"主這個調查委員會這個委員不同意再找願意的委員我相信這件事情應該有這種熱血的委員他也想要知道真相是什麼然後他願意進來調查的所以我是建議應該是你們重組這樣的一個調查委員然後召集人不要你們勞動部現在也是苦主你們也深設其中所以外面的人來幫忙調查我覺得真相是比較容易還原的"},{"start":12025.515,"end":12053.84,"text":"所以我是建議這個部分應該還是要按照這個內容部長你現在要重啟調查你要委員是要原班人馬還是再找多久的委員跟委員報告喔就是說因為我必須要馬上做出處分了啦如果再重啟調查也會延到我處分的時間因為整個社會對我的調查報告如果不信任那我們就送檢調跟工程會以招工信啦"},{"start":12055.485,"end":12066.058,"text":"對我行政部委員關切的問題我都可以補充來報告沒有問題可是如果就這一份要重啟調查會延到我處分的時間這個要很抱歉"},{"start":12073.445,"end":12087.821,"text":"這真的是因為委員如果說我這個調查報告沒訂沒因為委員對不起齁我也要再再再釐清一下啦我我這個調查是行政調查其實也不是送立院的情的啦"},{"start":12088.402,"end":12112.803,"text":"我今天是應立院的要求來做行政調查報告所以其實並不是原來立院就有決議要我做這個調查而我送立院必須立院通過不是這樣的程序這本來就是我自己主動的行政調查是那現在就是立法院的衛環委員會做成提案而且要求你勞動部你必須要做一個更周延的"},{"start":12113.664,"end":12130.593,"text":"的調查報告出來這個是屬於委員會要求你在做調查你有屬於你的職權你自己做的但是今天委員會要求的是因為你自己做的第一版大家看起來不滿意所以委員會是透過委員會委員的提案跟黨團的提案我們要求"},{"start":12131.113,"end":12144.767,"text":"你必須就是再重啟調查這個過去在這個行政體系都有這樣的一個案例沒有說你自己勞動部出來的第一版然後就不可以衛環委員會再做出決議要求你再重啟調查沒有這回事"},{"start":12149.912,"end":12164.742,"text":"立法院是監督勞動部的那是不是至少退回該調查報告可以拿掉啦因為沒有退回的問題啦我這個不是來立院不是送立院議決的所以是不是"},{"start":12167.021,"end":12169.384,"text":"請問就是說這個行政調查要做的行政處分應該不是只有謝芬署長一個人吧?"},{"start":12185.2,"end":12200.804,"text":"是嗎還是針對那如果還包含其他人的話那我想要提出一個疑慮就是在這一次的這個有在2月份的時候北分數的人就有北分數的人就提出檢舉了那"},{"start":12204.046,"end":12224.938,"text":"這個檢舉到了當時的王安邦次長的手上他其實他是有去約談這個謝宜蓉的那約談完之後呢在網上呈報的時候這邊就奇怪囉徐明瑄部長當時並沒有他表示他不知情他不知道這個檢舉不知道這個案子"},{"start":12226.579,"end":12247.046,"text":"那中間還卡了誰把這個案子給擋了、吃掉了、蓋掉了這個人到底是誰?要不要把他揪出來?所以這個就是行政調查你們沒有去查到的部分嘛那我沒有意見說你要重啟或者是要怎麼樣但是我覺得漏掉的那個人應該要揪出來不是嗎?"},{"start":12248.146,"end":12256.998,"text":"好所以我就補充這一點那至於要採取什麼樣的這個程序你們自己決定但是中間中間把這個案子吃掉的人就一定要揪出來就對了啦可惡了"},{"start":12260.851,"end":12284.588,"text":"好 林業行委員歡迎我想問一下就是剛剛部長回答說縣委員應該立即停職除非你們這邊沒問題喔想問一下停職跟撤職跟永不任用的這個公職的這個全職機關是勞動部嗎所以這個程序是要怎麼處理然後到底這個是誰是全職部還是你這邊那是司法"},{"start":12285.769,"end":12301.401,"text":"委員那個撤職永不再任公職那是那是懲戒法院那是懲戒法院的權限我的權限只有到停職啦我的考機會權限只有到停職最大到停職那都是懲戒法院的權責"},{"start":12306.673,"end":12334.967,"text":"那是不是就是那個剛剛陳穎委員追尋的齁這個我們一定也會調查剛剛我已經承諾政風就是承諾放哪一位 欸承諾王委員我的政風會立案開始調查二月份約談的問題已經有已經我剛剛已經承諾王委員的我可以從做一個調查報告給委員會沒有問題啦可是就是不是退回這份報告這樣子啦"},{"start":12340.637,"end":12348.72,"text":"退回該調查報告並重啟調查,同時送檢調,可以一起寫上去"},{"start":12365.216,"end":12374.443,"text":"全序部或人事總處從行政調查能不能就直接對公務員做停職的處分這個權責到底在不在勞動部"},{"start":12396.004,"end":12414.203,"text":"跟我們報告齁 如果考試會最後決議是要祭兩大過免職的話那兩大過免職做出處處分之後可以同時發布一個停職令就是在處分確定前先行停職那麼如果要移送懲戒的話就要依照懲戒法的規定所以必須要祭兩大過嗎對才有辦法行政機關的停職"},{"start":12419.187,"end":12443.304,"text":"或是移送懲戒他也有一個停職的依據那部長現在的意思是說假如說照這個臨時提案過立即做停職處分你們是可以接受的我可以考慮啊沒有問題不是你沒有權利考慮啊你沒有權利考慮因為這個必須要考機會是啊部長你這樣子的表態會變成考機會是由部長來掌控的"},{"start":12448.886,"end":12460.703,"text":"必須要考機會做出他剛剛的解釋是必須要考機會做成兩大過處分以後才有停職的問題嘛對不對不是不能"},{"start":12463.65,"end":12488.572,"text":"沒有沒有就是考試委員會要如果要處分的話而且那個處分是達到兩大過免職才會有停職的依據啦我們兩大過免職是未確定前先行停職所以就考積的部分懲處的部分的停職的依據只有在計兩大過免職的時候他才能夠停職所以懲戒的如果是走懲戒我們剛才講懲處和懲戒並行嘛"},{"start":12491.374,"end":12514.025,"text":"那如果考試委員會決意要送懲戒的話一送懲戒那就到懲戒的那邊再停止所以也都不是也都不是行政機關內部部長在這邊就可以承諾說可以停止機關的這個懲戒權限呢如果是鑑定90等以下的在在一送機關他是有權限可以先行停止"},{"start":12516.024,"end":12536.475,"text":"那分署長的職等是多少?你說是9職等以下才可以嗎?9職等以下也是要移送懲戒才可以主管機關移送機關本於權責認為情節重大他先行停職那你直接告訴我好了假如說這個臨時提案直接就寫"},{"start":12538.039,"end":12540.941,"text":"應立即停止處分,在法制上有沒有問題?"},{"start":12567.839,"end":12572.903,"text":"所以考機會還沒那個你就是必須要就就這個跟委員報告說這個不在你的權限是不是可以做修正"},{"start":12591.892,"end":12601.928,"text":"我相信沒有委員會要求你承諾你權限範圍之外的事情跟違反法規的事情啦好不好"},{"start":12603.633,"end":12627.559,"text":"對 就是 呃就是說我現在已經把他送考機會了嘛齁 那麼謝圓就是說 或是說可以改說說 建請謝圓應立即停止處分就建請考機會啦 我的考機會啦考機會是獨立的東西我們怎麼能介入 我們怎麼能介入這樣子的一個如果委員"},{"start":12632.035,"end":12647.16,"text":"那你就是說這個沒有辦法你怎麼會要我們去建議考紀會考紀會是一個審議的機關我們還不想介入那委員可以接受這句話拿掉嗎我是可以啊因為這個本來就你就是不能答應的啊"},{"start":12655.292,"end":12680.869,"text":"保訓會可以拜託嗎報告委員我們目前各機關在處理的時候有發生同仁有違反紀律的相關行為的時候我們可以召開考機會那考機會他可以做成決議第一個我要什麼額度的懲處決議那剛剛那個詮訊部已經講了如果今天是一次二大過的懲處"},{"start":12683.351,"end":12683.471,"text":"這是分署長．"},{"start":12711.721,"end":12734.8,"text":"所以他的考機委員會應該在署勞發署來召開那勞發署召開考機會的時候如果認為是要移副懲戒那因為我們的公務員懲戒法移副懲戒的權限是主管機關是勞動部那勞發署的考機會就可以做成移副懲戒並認為情節重大建議先行停職"},{"start":12740.525,"end":12765.498,"text":"那到勞動部的時候因為懲戒法有賦予他一副懲戒的時候他可以認為情節重大就停職那這個是第二個停職的法律那我們因為孫署長他是檢任嘛所以要先送監察院那先送監察院監察院有彈劾啊怎樣才送"},{"start":12766.118,"end":12766.578,"text":"老闆署的考記會"},{"start":12795.214,"end":12820.891,"text":"一個建議必須要先有建議嘛這個就是不是我們在這裡可以先做做出一個決議的嘛我們做決議等於是我們在對考記會下指導旗嘛是的是不是這樣子是的好 謝謝我們的全區部齁那個如果是考記會是署裡面的考記會是不是就是勞動力發展署的考記會"},{"start":12826.226,"end":12841.596,"text":"因為他是機關首長機關首長的平時考核案件基本上是送上級機關就是勞發署但是勞發署如果說在往上面的主管機關送因為他的移送承接的主管機關會是勞動部"},{"start":12844.978,"end":12873.157,"text":"所以勞動部如果他召開考記會來處理這個移送的案件也無不可不過就是移送案件其實在工程法的規定並沒有強制規定一定要過考記會只是行政機關通常就是說為了讓當事人這個案件能夠被公正的審理他會透過考記會這個機制那如果考記會是決定什麼兩大過就可以停止"},{"start":12874.116,"end":12892.424,"text":"是這樣嗎我剛才講的是說停職不是免職是停職懲處和懲戒並行嘛所以機關如果決定的是走考機會懲處的這個方式的話在懲處這邊只有到寄到兩大過的時候他才有一個停職的依據在兩大過"},{"start":12893.864,"end":12918.029,"text":"免職處分確定前先行停職讓當事人去救濟那他如果走懲戒的程序的話那個停職就回到懲戒法的規定那剛剛保修會已經有說明過了那如果移送懲戒主管機關認為懲戒重大他是可以先行停職啦那但是當然啦移送到懲戒法院或是監察院他也有職權通知停職懲戒法院也可以通知停職"},{"start":12918.849,"end":12940.152,"text":"都有這樣一個停職的機制,但是那個部分就是在懲戒公務員懲戒法的規範不是,我現在,請坐我現在要確定的就是說是不是一定要經過考機會,不管是懲處或者是不一定懲戒的部分未必"},{"start":12942.765,"end":12961.801,"text":"沒有辦法代替司法院回答但是就我們看到公務員懲戒法上面的規範他是沒有一定要走考記委員會這個程序才能移送懲戒啦是在行政懲處走考記法的這個行政懲處我們規定一定要過考記委員會移送懲戒之前呢行政機關可以先行停職嗎"},{"start":12963.75,"end":12966.852,"text":"那移送懲戒之前機關首長有沒有權力"},{"start":12993.328,"end":12995.45,"text":"先下停職的處分"},{"start":13023.708,"end":13042.277,"text":"機關首長要移送懲戒之前因為考試委員會是部裡面主管我們看到的懲戒法上面並沒有把考試委員會這個機制納進去懲戒的一個先行的程序而且送懲戒之前機關首長是可以先行停職的這我認為這個重大可以推進賣個賣個囉這邊鬼打牆啊這邊一直轉"},{"start":13051.26,"end":13066.171,"text":"我們就改成這樣啦做成決議倒數第4行就退回該調查報告並重啟調查就是退回該調查報告刪掉就是決議要求重啟調查這樣可以嗎部長同時引進這個這個這個然後血緣因立即停止存停止啦齁"},{"start":13078.884,"end":13088.546,"text":"你 你們的行政昨天的好像也有講說他要停職然後 調職 像是這樣嘛 對不對你們的那個報告調職要 要調職不是委員 就是說這個都是考機會要決的啦所以你們考機會還沒有 還沒有召開我會盡速召開好 那所以 怎麼樣 這一句就是說委員 就是說"},{"start":13112.136,"end":13140.138,"text":"所以昨天講調職也不一定對阿留在原來的分屬阿分屬的員工怕邱鶴算帳怕要死每個人都這樣講阿阿是要我做事情嗎?阿是調來調去你命阿把你救進康管不會啦 不會嘿 那麼謝元謝元那個就是說謝元因立即停止處分這句話可不可以拿委員"},{"start":13141.633,"end":13159.279,"text":"就是說我們就把他直接移送公務人員懲戒委員會啦好不好就是說也不用什麼離地級停職處分啦就是移送監察院我們就把他直接移送公務人員懲戒委員會嘛如果依照剛剛那個"},{"start":13164,"end":13192.809,"text":"主席主席那個部長我只是補充一下啦那部長新政已成啦所以他就是要直接預送懲戒而不是送稿機所以今天只有特別提到所以他就可以進行作為停止的處分是不是這樣我可以有這種權嗎我不知道"},{"start":13194.426,"end":13194.626,"text":"那個好請"},{"start":13215.321,"end":13221.594,"text":"報告一送書出去就可以一併來執行停止處分了啦剛剛就這麼明確了嘛阿因為部長剛剛也這麼講說就不再處理考期直接送"},{"start":13227.116,"end":13249.177,"text":"最近講了我是我是應部長的講法所以你的行政如果已成就這樣處理啊委員還有另外因為我不是只有他一位啦我還有另外三位必須處理所以是不是容我盡快召開考機會做出處分唯有我行政部門的態度之後我馬上移送公務人員懲戒委員會以及檢調可不可以這樣"},{"start":13254.318,"end":13274.66,"text":"那因為我在這個部長我們現在是要討論說臨時提案裡面要求你立即立即停止處分這個這個文字聽說部長是接受的我現在是在問說你有沒有這個權利可以直接就是"},{"start":13276.54,"end":13289.252,"text":"對對他剛剛講繳走懲戒的路線的話是可以不僅考紀委員會而且部長就可以直接做停職處分是不是這樣子這保訓會跟"},{"start":13303.325,"end":13321.29,"text":"我們衛環委員會主秘他的意見是這樣移送審計移送監察案及公務員懲罰委員會的同時就可以停職就可以停職所以這個是可以兩個可以一起做的"},{"start":13324.233,"end":13343.311,"text":"對不對?是沒有錯啦,我現在只是說因為檢驗的職務的話是不會進送審協法院,他送的會是監察院那是停職,因為原先的條文是停職寫在前面似乎是應該是先移送監察院然後並同時停職法院敢辦嗎?監察院敢辦嗎?"},{"start":13354.081,"end":13356.405,"text":"很好了,我覺得剛剛那個文字很好了"},{"start":13365.882,"end":13392.669,"text":"法庭委員可不可以容我再請個委員剛剛講這個是OK的不是就是說剛剛講的那個方式移送監察院公務人員懲戒委員會並予以停職這只能"},{"start":13394.304,"end":13412.836,"text":"這只能針對情節最重大的啦可是我剛剛有再跟各位委員報告我還有另外三位得處理好 那麼如果委員對只對謝圓有意見所以"},{"start":13414.432,"end":13428.809,"text":"所以委員的意思是說,縣委員不通過我的考機會,而希望我直接把他停職並移送公務人員懲戒委員會,是嗎?那可不可以?"},{"start":13434.099,"end":13451.097,"text":"我們不要私交啦這個是部長你要不要承擔你要承擔就直接移送然後你就自己停職你不想承擔就交給考試會所以這個是部長你個人願不願意承擔的態度的問題而已啦不是"},{"start":13452.352,"end":13470.623,"text":"我考機會其實也是我考機會也是我這邊召開的所以我也是我擔權者啦考機會所做成的除非也代表我的態度啦那也是機關的態度啊因為考機會也是機關考機會要等多久現在就決定"},{"start":13472.176,"end":13491.176,"text":"考機會我馬上就會召開可以嗎?就是我在馬上召開考機會,然後我會考慮對縣議員予以停止處分,然後我還得考慮其他三位的處分,之後我一併移送公務人員懲戒委員會啊,跟檢調這樣子啊,可以嗎?"},{"start":13496.516,"end":13522.432,"text":"你確定要讓火繼續燒嗎?如果現在不答應的話?考試會馬上召開,可是我們不能先確定結果,尊重考試會運動那個只是...因為委員擔心我們不停止嘛好好好,不要再討論了,聽到就討論了勞動部你把這三座蓋蓋"},{"start":13525.37,"end":13526.431,"text":"先說第4案,不要這樣洗臉"},{"start":13551.665,"end":13552.745,"text":"第三案第五案 部長請改改"},{"start":13579.838,"end":13580.158,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13609.775,"end":13632.612,"text":"好 先來休息10分鐘 趕快改改 要吃飯快點吃這個 再整個拼到最後好 改一下 報告委員會 我們現在休息20分鐘"},{"start":13637.032,"end":13663.705,"text":"借員移送檢查院同時停職後面的不要院他要不要不認公職或撤職這個要等懲戒法院的判決那是懲戒法院的處分不是我們行政機關的處分"},{"start":13666.807,"end":13667.587,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":13684.199,"end":13696.125,"text":"後面這個撤職負責任公職這個移送懲戒者在懲戒法院懲戒法院在在座就是說這個不在座任公職這個公園這個要懲戒法院是是這個部分"},{"start":13707.831,"end":13708.111,"text":"那我來問我來問"},{"start":13738.553,"end":13738.713,"text":"檢察院同職"},{"start":13759.553,"end":13773.398,"text":"因為我們並移送監察院監察院移送並將卸員因為你前面是調查機制的並將並將卸員移送監察院同時依法就是懲戒法懲戒法也不是我的法不是不是懲戒法裡面我們機關有"},{"start":13786.602,"end":13802.559,"text":"移送的時候必須全認定警戒重大合體所以我們有個警政群在裡面在他做成見證請瞭解認定警戒重大是主管機關的權責那我主管機關可以認定警戒重大的嗎這個公務員先堂職"},{"start":13809.746,"end":13825.557,"text":"但是我平時的時候叫我移送檢察院檢查因為它是檢認的 檢認的對 90分以下才可以接送檢察院 那個以上就準認以上的一定要經過檢察院談核在一起請問一下 因為那個情節中他必須要到那個免責職 休職 還有檢查公職 是不是"},{"start":13836.804,"end":13845.896,"text":"我們自己論述說我認為相當他未來可能相當要有這樣程度的成績可有之餘就好了有這種程度之餘就好了"},{"start":13858.012,"end":13860.434,"text":"所以我們還是要走考機委員會這條路嗎?"},{"start":13883.129,"end":13884.69,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":13903.786,"end":13905.347,"text":"有勞動部進速召開考試會議"},{"start":13923.338,"end":13924.619,"text":"當事人要來陳述一件事"},{"start":13951.008,"end":13951.689,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13966.607,"end":13976.312,"text":"請問我他同時停職以送公務人員承接委員會的我還可以照該考機會處理他嗎?可以分開嗎?"},{"start":13991.68,"end":14010.329,"text":"我跟妳講,我們考進這個公務人員、同事院、涉案的很多人,我們就要把這件故意牽開是不公事件,因為縣員是縣員,那其他人是對於縣員的管理不好,對不對,他的署長啊"},{"start":14012.04,"end":14034.242,"text":"其中三個 一個是 兩個是縣委的下屬那跟縣委應該一掛的要不然我把他們三個都停止張宇宙公務人员呈現委會不行啊 他們情節沒有他這麼重大你這樣 你會被罵啦不要緊 不要緊沒有 那可是北分屬四屆是情節重大啊那個 那要的話就全部一掛一起啊"},{"start":14035.302,"end":14056.374,"text":"如果因為不懲戒法就是說同一事件的一掛人如果要有成績最高的那這件事檢認一定要送檢察院就一定送但是對於他們的情節我們可以分開認定其中只有限分數大情節重大然後立即停止"},{"start":14057.114,"end":14085.403,"text":"他們現在是怕我不停職嗎?他們現在回來跟我研究溝通啦!可不可以讓我技術狀態考試位啦?然後我一定會把這個議席都結束掉!我們不能這樣說啦!這樣你就是考試過你已經預設立場了!不行啦!你不能預設!不是!你就說我技術狀態考試位!我們不是有條例!那個實踐法裡面有條例!統一涉案有沒有!"},{"start":14086.627,"end":14087.437,"text":"多人的是要同時"},{"start":14088.61,"end":14109.805,"text":"對,但是你不能說我就叫他停止你這樣會說你會預設立法我現在事情也弄到要請勞動部召開考試、技術召開考試的機會女女停止體育費不行,好機會不行他會送到我這邊來啦所以就要認不認定所以我才說你要先認不認定他是統一事件請勞動部技術召開考試機會嗎"},{"start":14118.733,"end":14119.453,"text":"委員會進行一個正當的採訪"},{"start":14138.623,"end":14139.925,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":14996.357,"end":15012.161,"text":"好大家回來了我們現在繼續開會來現在是第三案吧第三案來修改後唸一下委員是我這邊可以說明一下嗎"},{"start":15022.128,"end":15028.794,"text":"請求委員,原來倒數第4行退回該調查報告拿掉,作者決議重啟調查,同時引進外部調查機制關乎如加入第三方公證人士,"},{"start":15040.615,"end":15052.225,"text":"將謝元移送將謝元保留應立即停止處分拿掉將謝元移送監察院及公務員懲戒委員會並同時審酌是否依法停職"},{"start":15069.242,"end":15096.724,"text":"公務人員懲戒委員會檢察院就好了沒有懲戒委員會為什麼沒有現在已經是那個懲戒法院了就是到這裡移送檢察院就好了移送檢察院對不起我在修正對不起委員我在修正就是那個移送檢察院及公務人員懲戒委員會是拿掉這樣子"},{"start":15099.215,"end":15100.696,"text":"並同時審酌是否依法停止"},{"start":15130.509,"end":15145.233,"text":"考機會那段應該可以不用特別寫因為那本來就是我我的權利是可以對不對那個保訓會不用寫那本來我就可以用我開考機會然後予以停職然後送檢察院這樣子是吧這樣可以嗎 請就位"},{"start":15158.124,"end":15160.965,"text":"臨時提案全部處理完畢接下來我們請盧憲毅委員質詢"},{"start":15206.264,"end":15211.569,"text":"主席有請我們教育部人事處處長王崇斌教育部,你沒有看見王處長請處長好,處長"},{"start":15230.885,"end":15243.156,"text":"今天因為我本身是原住民立委所以針對我們在原住民常看到的霸凌先請問處長通常霸凌哪一種形式會最常見"},{"start":15254.181,"end":15274.464,"text":"基本上他就是包括言語包括行為那我先考你一個我後面這兩個這個主委名字怎麼唸GIGIGIGI怎麼唸GIGI他怎麼唸GIGI不是他是唸GIGI"},{"start":15275.809,"end":15301.826,"text":"就像我們現在的直棒選手現在去打球的時候很多人說發不出那個音然後就類似像嘲諷的意思所以我們常常處在這樣的一個狀況之下那現在有一個宜蘭縣的投訴就是說國小教練他言語霸凌我們小朋友說你的體力這麼差你不會打球的話你就去種菜"},{"start":15303.867,"end":15319.394,"text":"經過考評會以後老師被解聘了教練被解聘結果沒有多久他又被聘為代課老師我想知道說教育部對這方面的有沒有一個限制比如說他已經被解聘了沒有多久又變成代課老師這樣一個機制是怎麼會存在"},{"start":15321.395,"end":15344.781,"text":"跟委員報告,因為這個可能會涉及到當時他解聘的原因,還有某案的這個...好,沒關係,屏東縣又發生這樣的事情,也是因為扮球教練他就是不適任,結果霸凌學生後一年,他管制期間是一年,2024到2月7號,應該是明年才可以在延宇,他不能再被續聘,結果他現在又被續聘為高中的"},{"start":15346.862,"end":15369.681,"text":"在我們現在的屏東縣的某個高中學生的家長來跟我投訴說這樣的一個教練怎麼會適合繼續變成代課老師所以這個方面我覺得你們應該通常檢討常常會發生在教練的身上雖然我知道大部分的教練都很好可是遇到這樣的教練我覺得我們常有嚴重的學生會求恃無門"},{"start":15371.881,"end":15387.646,"text":"這個部分我想因為涉及到個案所以必須要就個案的情況再去了解可是我覺得這樣的情況很常見接下來的第三個就是也是屏東縣的教練他認為說選手如果得到獎金的話他應該這個獎金有部分應該是要"},{"start":15390.707,"end":15412.782,"text":"給全隊大家來分享可是這個是沒有當然是沒有說一定強制要多少可是越來越嚴重到有時候要到三分之二結果學生的家長來找我們投訴說怎麼有這樣的一個規定然後他跟老師知道以後教練知道以後他跟學生恐嚇說如果你這樣子的話以後"},{"start":15413.891,"end":15440.134,"text":"我把你就是提出這個球隊的話以後你進入不了任何一個球隊也就是說這個學生就受到老師的霸凌還好他高中畢業就考上國立大學就離開這個學校可是這個老師還是停留在還是留在原高中教書所以這樣的狀況不是很不是很所謂的rare是非常常見所以我才跟你講說應該要給一套的措施對我們所謂的教練來看"},{"start":15441.86,"end":15442.881,"text":"好,下一個請國防部"},{"start":15471.707,"end":15498.981,"text":"我們常務次長楊基隆市長好委員好你看一下我今天穿的衣服這是我們原住民的軍人在10月12號因為兜露事件死亡的一個軍人我們海軍陸戰隊我們對這件事情非常感到遺憾對我也知道大家都很遺憾不是只有你很遺憾那我想知道目前的處理進度"},{"start":15501.434,"end":15527.292,"text":"這個進度方面分幾方面跟委員做報告第一個就是有關造案的這個陸軍的零星的士兵還有空軍那個銀星的士兵我們分別都已從地檢署然後現在目前零星士兵遭到羈押然後我們也依照他酒後失序還有營外不當持有盜竊這樣的這樣的成因來記他兩大過以及記過的處分然後對於空軍那個銀星的士兵我們"},{"start":15528.814,"end":15531.938,"text":"我大概都知道我有請兩次國會聯絡人到辦公室來我想知道"},{"start":15546.296,"end":15570.574,"text":"對 也就是說被加害者的這個部隊有沒有確實去關心我知道受害者這個部隊是每天都至少有兩三個我們的不論是輔導長、連長或者是連輔導長都有過去關心每天都有到可是呢我們加害的這個空軍跟陸軍的部隊長官他被害者家屬跟我講說他認為"},{"start":15572.395,"end":15586.185,"text":"他們只做到所謂的撤職就把這個事情切得一乾二淨完全跟部隊沒有關係讓家屬覺得很不被尊重你至少來我們所謂的我們你們漢人說上個鄉吧我們那邊是"},{"start":15588.426,"end":15604.753,"text":"謝謝耶穌不過你至少來臨前致意來一下雖然屏東有點遠可是我還是我那天有在告別式之前我還是有去在來一鄉的文樂村那我的意思就是說家屬感受不到國防部的"},{"start":15605.908,"end":15608.59,"text":"不是,這個再跟委員就說明一下"},{"start":15629.907,"end":15651.034,"text":"國防部基於三軍一家,我們不管陸海空軍都是同根同源,然後也都情同所屬。這個事情一發生之後,我們就責成海軍陸戰隊,是委員你現在所看到的,海軍陸戰隊所有的同仁,代表了三軍,代表國防部,到家屬家裡面去做了相關有關於傷臟事宜或是一些輔敘事宜的協助。"},{"start":15653.115,"end":15679.409,"text":"家長還在受害者保護協會去那邊受諮詢也就是說我期望啦國防部能夠給予他們最大的協助好不好因為他們都是來自親韓的家庭又是原住民的部落離法院離哪裡都很遠大概都要一個小時以上因為我們稍微知道齁文樂很遠那我的意思就是說他們可能的知識水準也沒有很高所以要給予最大"},{"start":15680.009,"end":15680.67,"text":"好 謝謝陸委員繼續我們請廖偉祥委員"},{"start":15716.513,"end":15718.694,"text":"謝謝主席有請何部長部長好可以感覺出來你也承受很大的壓力了但是我們今天討論這個東西就是希望把這件事情釐清調查清楚還給社會一個公道部長請先跟大眾說明一下什麼是目的良善目的良善你們報告裡面寫的目的良善"},{"start":15757.697,"end":15782.93,"text":"主席你要不要暫停一下 讓那個 讓 主席要不要暫停一下時間讓部長的情緒緩和一下好 我想 嗯 謝芬署長 確實有霸凌的行為確實有霸凌的行為用破地牢上這樣的用語錯了 我們承認錯誤所以你調查就是確實 有霸凌的行為"},{"start":15784.687,"end":15786.428,"text":"我想要問這次勞動部的無姓同仁的親身的漢氏"},{"start":15810.86,"end":15824.743,"text":"為什麼悲劇發生在11月4號要一直到11月8號才從社群媒體網路得知?難道我們勞動部的長官們都要看報紙才會做事嗎?看社群有事情才會做事情嗎?拖了4天不啟動調查的原因是什麼?委員我一直在本來就有在思考要啟動調查思考"},{"start":15841.449,"end":15866.67,"text":"這個很扯的事情事情發生當天其實我就有在思考思考但是沒有調查為什麼隔這麼多天理由是什麼因為家屬他你說家屬嗎家屬也希望低調可是我想你確定家屬希望低調好我也承認我承認我們啟動調查比較慢的家屬希望低調跟調查也是兩件事吧我承認我們啟動調查比較慢的"},{"start":15868.91,"end":15896.782,"text":"這點跟大家到底我想要問那啟動調查比較慢這些拖的時間難道會不會讓人家覺得你們是在處理輿論也就是我們所謂的壓新聞這就是讓大眾非常疑惑的地方所以如果是這樣的話我想現在是預算會期勞動部的這種媒體宣傳的經費是會有問題的因為這樣看起來你們延後調查就是有這種讓人家覺得壓新聞的過程"},{"start":15898.652,"end":15925.428,"text":"我沒有能力壓新聞好我等一下繼續另外我同樣想要問你因為你們18號得知拖到12號14號才開始訪談嘛那另外這個出勤打卡紀錄今天應該也很多人問過一切看起來沒有問題可是監視器他就是有加班但我想請問你們掌握這樣的情形有掌握到多久他這樣的情況有多久"},{"start":15930.291,"end":15931.052,"text":"你們有去訪談說這個"},{"start":15955.854,"end":15958.096,"text":"你們有去問他嗎?有調查問他嗎?我想他不了解吧"},{"start":15985.307,"end":15999.321,"text":"你一想他不了解,所以你調查裡面也沒有去問這件事嗎?然後如果沒有談,那要怎麼知道長官做了什麼?還有什麼事情才是真正讓委員會壓力大到輕生的真正原因?這就是沒有調查清楚嘛"},{"start":16000.359,"end":16016.269,"text":"所以現在的結論就是如果本人不反應遭到霸凌出情表上看起來正常那無論其他人怎麼反應申訴陳情這些上級長官都不會處理就一定要搞到出了人命新聞壓不下來才要處理囉"},{"start":16018.277,"end":16033.163,"text":"是嗎那我再問訪談相關人固然重要但是要釐清調查真相的相關工作的資料例如LINE、E-mail等才可以更深入的去了解請問這部分有做調查嗎有嗎"},{"start":16037.244,"end":16037.444,"text":"好我請處長來回答好不好"},{"start":16068.361,"end":16076.538,"text":"11月4號我們的人事室主任他都是陪著家屬那當下家屬他是有表達部長"},{"start":16078.146,"end":16096.684,"text":"我問你 這個邏輯非常奇怪你認為家屬在這個無緣被霸凌輕生之後會去跟霸凌者講說不好意思喔就算我家人都被你們霸凌到死我還是希望你們這位始作俑者一直低調不要上媒體這個邏輯就是 就是這樣大眾就是這樣看的好 回到調查結論就是兩個"},{"start":16099.046,"end":16126.096,"text":"現在你們說謝信這個可能要停職嘛對不對本來是說調職但是今天質詢了一天之後你受不了說停職好依問卷訪談及相關的證據顯示謝信長官沒有霸凌你剛剛也也就也就說他是有霸凌是不是你也改口了嘛對不對不是委員我還是要再強調一次他有對其他的同仁霸凌對"},{"start":16129.471,"end":16156.259,"text":"那麼他是通過他對當事者也許他有霸凌是因為通過當通過這樣子層層傳導的方式而形成的所以我想下一個下一個結論喔我們我是要再問早上再繼續追問下去喔我想要請問一下喔這一次的調查裡面這一些這一些人都是這個謝信長官的救世有沒有難道沒有迴避的問題嗎"},{"start":16158.359,"end":16179.757,"text":"包含著召集人,包含著黃琳娜次長還有吳雅惠參事他們都不是調查小組成員都不是,但是他不在裡面,但是難道沒有這個相關的關係嗎?召集人在調查小組裡,但是其他的長官都在就事,這個有沒有,其中有沒有牽扯到大家共同來押案子的問題?"},{"start":16181.127,"end":16197.753,"text":"這也是要求你們調查很重要的地方我要表達的事情告訴你的是這次霸凌申訴調查小組只有兩位外部委員的加入只佔小組的九分之二"},{"start":16198.453,"end":16213.249,"text":"那大部分也都是內部成員所組成那這樣子怎麼可以讓社會感覺到有公信力這部分未來是不是應該要改善不只是增加外部人員的比例就算是外部人員也要嚴格要求迴避這個部分是不是應該未來要這樣處理我會處理最後我要繼續追問事發過程當中"},{"start":16220.868,"end":16246.647,"text":"你有沒有嘗試要把事情壓掉或者是持案你跟署長能夠發誓問心聞愧的摸著你們的良心說完全沒有嗎?絕對沒有有的話你是不是有說要負起政治責任嘛對不對早上那是不是政治責任的意思是說要以下台以示負責是是嘛對不對好那我告訴你你就是有這樣的狀況"},{"start":16248.905,"end":16265.722,"text":"因為如果沒有施壓、施案的話我想要請問部長為什麼要通過黨的系統副秘書長何柏文去聯絡李雨祥一人我想問為什麼要這樣我想問為什麼我跟你講為什麼這樣子可以說是有施壓嫌疑"},{"start":16266.423,"end":16283.592,"text":"因為議員的服務處、議員的手機這個都可以公開都可以找得到的你要聯絡議員服務處非常的簡單何必要透過黨的系統去聯絡議員呢這就好像是你找了比如說你過去可能在"},{"start":16284.693,"end":16296.77,"text":"科建民總召委員的辦公室工作過然後呢科總召可能又跟某個委員關係特別好然後你明明可以直接找到那個委員然後你就是特別跟這個科總召說你幫我跟那個委員講一聲好不好"},{"start":16297.632,"end":16314.41,"text":"這樣子就是有間接讓人社會大眾覺得這叫做間接性的好像說我被關切了我是不是要小心一點因為你透過的是黨的系統所以我要告訴你這個東西就是間接性的施壓而且也可以視為想要試圖有試圖有嫌疑試圖要押案的這個狀況"},{"start":16316.857,"end":16343.286,"text":"委員你認為李議員他後來有停止對我的監督嗎?完全沒有啊沒有這種東西這種東西這只能夠說這樣子施壓不代表他一定會被你壓嘛對不對但是你這就是過程你用你透過黨的高層來告訴我就好像你說今天你找了這個高層來這裡跟一個議員說他找你喔這個勞動部長找你他會不會覺得說我好像被施壓了"},{"start":16344.127,"end":16360.779,"text":"就是這個樣子那我問你那你整個內容是什麼你有跟他聯絡上嗎?跟誰?跟這個議員那個李議員啊我本人嗎?對那為什麼你要透過秘書那個副秘書長何柏文去聯絡這個議員呢?"},{"start":16363.308,"end":16390.064,"text":"我們當然要聯繫上阿因為我們必須提供資料給委員給議員阿所以我請我的我請我的這個同仁慕瑤同仁提供資料給他是這樣而已我要告訴你也是部長你居然透過外部的第三人去聯繫爆料的明袋那有證據現場如果有證據有沒有什麼證據不公開我想問聽說有不具名的說現場也有留下類似遺書的東西請問內容是什麼有嗎什麼現場"},{"start":16393.513,"end":16414.466,"text":"沒有公開?內容是什麼?這個我們得尊重家屬那你們有去調查過嗎?內容有沒有跟這個霸凌有關係?我們有看過啊,可是我們不能公開這些東西家屬不同意公開?對不對?我們要尊重家屬啦那家屬有說同意不同意嗎?如果委員想了解,我們得去問過家屬"},{"start":16416.195,"end":16438.702,"text":"我要告訴妳的是妳們有沒有認真地去調查這件事情是當然我們都去了解所以我想問妳說家屬有家屬有確切說不想要讓人家知道嗎委員容我們針對職場的部分有一部分他告訴自己的家屬有一部分他是針對他職場的部分有提到嗎有提到他在職場上面受到相關的資料嗎委員"},{"start":16443.82,"end":16446.309,"text":"因為這個是家屬的痛啦"},{"start":16447.731,"end":16475.184,"text":"我當然知道是家屬的痛我們都不希望憾事再發生所以我還是要回過頭來說基本上部長就是我只能夠說你透過了外部人透過了黨的系統去聯繫爆料的明帶而且明帶的資料很好去聯繫我隨便上網找你就找得到這個李議員服務處的聯絡方式甚至議會都很容易找到所以我要告訴你的是你這樣的行為就會讓人家覺得這不是吃案那什麼是吃案"},{"start":16476.266,"end":16485.374,"text":"因為你明明有很正當的管道可以去聯繫的所以我要說那這樣子算不算需要負責任你在做這件事情之前你有沒有深思熟慮過"},{"start":16499.434,"end":16520.224,"text":"我不認為這是詞案你不認為這是詞案你還是不認為這是詞案你透過黨的系統去聯繫民意爆料民意代表你說這不是詞案好我希望全國各位觀眾可以去思考這個問題這樣究竟有沒有間接施壓這樣究竟是不是想要間接的壓新聞間接的叫人家不要再爆下去了事實上"},{"start":16522.222,"end":16540.233,"text":"事實上你可以用很正當的管道去告訴他們說發生什麼事我來跟你報告我把資料跟你講但是你卻透過了同一個派系的勇言會的副秘書長要去跟這個李議員講我跟你講這不是慈愛 什麼是慈愛好 謝謝好 謝謝戴偉祥委員那下一位請我們蘇欽前委員"},{"start":16559.011,"end":16580.469,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我請國防部次長 楊次長好 請國防部次長次長 所有人好我給部長休息一下啦 我看他累嘛有人說這個案件是洪仲修的2.0版"},{"start":16582.987,"end":16599.055,"text":"你們那個國防部以前洪仲丘這個案子我很注意那個書叫做不當管教不當管教後來檢調查了是我們指揮官也被拔掉了所以你對於勞動部這一次的事情"},{"start":16599.835,"end":16628.774,"text":"你的看法怎麼樣?這個勞動部的這個事情實在是不便發表個人的在這個地方發表個人的看法但是對於洪祚秋這個事情的確是一個令人遺憾的事情那國防部對這個事情發生之後我們也做了相關的檢討那不管是司法調查或是我們自己內部調查方面都還給這個事情都把這個事情給還原了把這個事情的真相給釐清了跟召委報告"},{"start":16630.516,"end":16634.071,"text":"我們軍中還有我們警察、警戒"},{"start":16635.615,"end":16661.988,"text":"還有我們的外交部都一直層出不窮傳出很多海外的像橫濱的處長也是自殺身亡那當然跟我們派在那邊的大使有沒有關係大家各說各話然後巴西外館也出問題那警察裡面像屏東也有警察所長跟警員"},{"start":16663.826,"end":16678.886,"text":"吵吵鬧鬧什麼都有所以對於這種公務體系的這種失控跟脫序的行為我們軍中看法怎麼樣你們要怎麼做往後怎麼做"},{"start":16681.162,"end":16695.582,"text":"這個合理的管教包括委員合理的管教還有這個善待部署照顧官兵這是我們國防部一直在努力的目標那也跟各位委員還有各位委員報告這個軍隊是一個跟民間"},{"start":16696.977,"end":16717.183,"text":"或是公部門管理有點區隔的這個管理的方式是有點區隔的因為我們講求的是絕對服從我們的軍人將來在戰場上面一定要執行保國衛民的責任在某種訓練上面我們要講求絕對服從在某種管理上面我們也必須要嚴格有相當的紀律這個要特別跟委員做報告了那當然不可以因為這個樣子"},{"start":16718.063,"end":16719.144,"text":"我當海軍陸戰隊的我們以前叫合理的"},{"start":16734.138,"end":16751.356,"text":"那不合理的這是什麼合理叫訓練不合理叫磨練那這句話現在還管用嗎還是繼續這樣混下去沒有沒有現在您放心絕對不會有這樣的現象好那部長請上來吧謝委員"},{"start":16757.032,"end":16761.033,"text":"我承認我不及格我覺得這件事情你的部分我查理"},{"start":16786.843,"end":16808.319,"text":"會有發生事情有人向你通報有沒有人通報給你如果你都不知道啊被資訊被block掉那你就無理直言那你是怎麼說這個資訊這個環境有起的那你沒處理那你就你不對了那你感覺你是怎樣你是完全不知道還是"},{"start":16814.473,"end":16833.206,"text":"早上一直質詢到現在 聽太多了 聽太多了有的是說他這個分署長肚子很硬 什麼不管 我有去查啦他的身家背景 他的娘家 他的婆家 我有去查啦我那不錯啦 我那經濟民情好 不做這個套路不吃這個套路也沒關係啦 也沒關係齁所以在這裡是在表演 在做表演就對了"},{"start":16842.884,"end":16850.351,"text":"那你如果說你當部長是政務官是要對政策負責那裡面的內控"},{"start":16852.827,"end":16877.379,"text":"這些下面反映的事情你是怎麼來接受這些管道或者是如果你沒有再繼續因為太龐大了 人員太多了就一個勞動發展署就包括業聘僱人員就有2000多人那是很多啊 怕死人所有的員額裡面真的公務人員占不到四分之一其他都是業聘僱的"},{"start":16879.076,"end":16905.169,"text":"那我們公務體系的業聘僱人員真的養太多了而且那個勞動條件也不太好待遇也不太好像我們食藥署在邊境查驗的資訊都很假的每天都被窮犯在海關那裡寸步難行那我們勞動力發展署這邊或是勞動部這邊如果是有這樣子的話我是覺得要檢討啦"},{"start":16906.775,"end":16922.526,"text":"那如果是薪水太低也要給人家高啦那我覺得公務人員齁我這裡要跟大家肯定啦大家都磕磕磕磕到要死喔磕磕磕到要死要來這裡上這個班齁那薪水又沒有在外面管啦在外面醫療界看這個薪水實在是沒有管啦"},{"start":16923.747,"end":16942.118,"text":"每天在那裡拖著忙我就覺得很不捨很不捨我看健保署裡面那些員工也都是蠻累的也不能申請加班費我們在外面的財團法院或社團法院的醫院那個申請加班是沒有人敢擋的"},{"start":16943.43,"end":16965.518,"text":"那你們勞動部是在要求人家的職業安全條件的結果你們裡面都是過勞三更半夜在發LINE我不敢三更半夜給我們的員工發LINE我怕我怕人家給我投訴你這樣三個半夜發LINE亂搞一通然後還要10分鐘回覆有這種事嗎?部長"},{"start":16969.198,"end":16975.541,"text":"而且動不動會自己制裁這個是很無可理喻所以這個心理教育因為這個董事長本身我看是念社工的嘛"},{"start":16997.048,"end":17025.503,"text":"是劣色功德,應該同理心很強所以我看你要整個系統要檢討啦當然,那是系統的問題為你的市長、為你的署長都要一個一個檢討,整個系統要檢查不然的話這個還是會出事啦我看還是會出事所以今天你這樣你自己已經半年半年就任半年你自己打不及格我是給你鼓勵啦"},{"start":17026.463,"end":17030.925,"text":"這次教訓是一個很有意義的教訓我想我出來勞動部我也是第一次進到行政部門"},{"start":17052.813,"end":17080.321,"text":"那麼對龐大的官僚體系其實我是陌生的所以我也非常介乘恐懼那麼我期待跟文官之間發展出一個合作友善的關係可是我也忽略了文官體制之間有難以掌控的陋習或者是惡習乃至於我不曾想像的我早上講的"},{"start":17082.185,"end":17107.293,"text":"那個邪惡的問題那整個文官體制跟我們當今的民主政治體制之間又存在著非常大的鴻溝跟落差我們的社群網路媒體政治對於我們的文官體制的凌遲跟剝削也是不遑多讓的我親眼看到我的文官"},{"start":17109.488,"end":17109.788,"text":"那我當然"},{"start":17138.547,"end":17138.627,"text":"主席"},{"start":17171.125,"end":17181.098,"text":"來 接續請屠前級委員質詢好 謝謝主席那還是請我們部長 辛苦了委員好"},{"start":17187.662,"end":17203.931,"text":"好 何部長那我知道今天你壓力也很大啦也很辛苦但是這個社會大眾大家很關注的事情我覺得有些地方我們還是要說明來釐清一下因為針對我們前次長王安邦說"},{"start":17206.007,"end":17227.42,"text":"我之前做議員的時候跟我們王次長那時候他在市府也是擔任局長所以我們也算認識了那我們一直針對王次長到底有沒有約過謝芬署長這一部分好像一直大家都沒有說得很清楚是不是到底部長到底他有沒有事先約談我們的謝芬署長"},{"start":17228.18,"end":17249.126,"text":"其實我早上就已經有回答委員的詢問我真的不清楚我只是聽說所以我們現在要重新立案調查好像也說要針對這部分要提出調查嘛對不對那其實剛剛在臨時提案的時候我剛剛也聽到陳穎委員還有其他委員有在講他說其實這個重點已經不是在有沒有約談啦"},{"start":17250.286,"end":17270.841,"text":"他們說這根本就是有約談只是重點約談以後這個案子被誰擋掉被誰吃掉他說這才是調查的重點我相信剛剛部長應該也有聽得很清楚啦所以我也希望針對這部分真的希望好好的去調查因為我們都認為說這件事情感覺"},{"start":17272.282,"end":17301.184,"text":"並不是一個謝分署長個人的事情就像媒體一直在講這個感覺就是後台很硬而且我們知道王安邦次長在凌晨晚上12點的時候匆匆被發布離職新聞稿那時候我們也開玩笑講說奇怪這個霸凌被約談的分署長沒有離職反而約談人的次長就離職或許這部長認為可能這是一個巧合"},{"start":17302.065,"end":17331.281,"text":"可是我覺得這一份的調查報告真的真的很重要我相信社會大眾也很想知道也很想釐清剛剛你看這個臨時提案不但是國民黨通過連民進黨執政的執政黨他們也認為這個事情真的有必要調查的清清楚楚而且該送檢調送檢調該送監察的送監察那這部分也希望部長因為今天大家對你"},{"start":17331.961,"end":17356.568,"text":"你們今天做的勞動部的報告真的是不滿意啦那而且據我們了解監察院現在也要介入調查那你會不會擔心監察院到時候做出來的調查跟我們勞動部好像不太一樣因為我們勞動部說這個無性職員這一部分跟謝分署長霸凌沒有直接的關係你們的報告是不是這樣子"},{"start":17359.779,"end":17385.255,"text":"對嘛你認為沒有直接的關係那其實喔針對這部分我們也看過你的報告就是說他針對這部分我們有兩個重點一個就是當然剛剛你要講謝分署長確實有霸凌分署的同仁但是這個無姓的死因跟謝分署長的霸凌你說你們的報告是說沒有直接的關係"},{"start":17386.495,"end":17411.172,"text":"但是有間接的關係那其實針對這部分我們也很關心我也看過很多網路網友我也跟你分享一下可是我覺得聽了很諷刺啊他說這個沒有直接的死因跟霸凌無關但是跟這根繩子有關我覺得講這個話真的對我們的報告是很諷刺啊覺得他們覺得你這個報告根本"},{"start":17411.992,"end":17436.432,"text":"民眾是沒有辦法接受的所以這部分我希望剛剛有講說要重啟調查我覺得這個重啟調查或許對勞動部我覺得也是一個好事希望真的讓真相大白不要讓我們社會大眾大家心中有這個疑慮在因為畢竟現在有關於這霸凌而且有關於一條人命還有受害者的家屬"},{"start":17437.827,"end":17465.918,"text":"好那針對這部分還有我請問一下我們蔡署長那給部長休息一下蔡署長那請問一下你看一下這一張簡報大概的時間表我們是在11月8號這個新聞曝光那署長是不是在11月8號之前有到北分署去來關心我們這些同仁有去做一些安撫是好像是11月7號去的嘛是"},{"start":17466.997,"end":17494.771,"text":"那針對這一部分針對這一部分喔那我部長針對這一部分部長後來有沒有去北分署去跟我們這些同仁做一個溝通安撫一下我本來有要去的啦那後來因為當然同仁當時的情緒似乎都很激動"},{"start":17496.01,"end":17521.106,"text":"那也有同仁似乎也有同仁認為我不應該去那麼我就尊重啦對所以其實可能為什麼我會啟動調查也是這個原因所以可能為什麼會有同仁不希望我去呢那一定有問題好像其實我看分屬的同仁好像這個事情發生後很多人也對"},{"start":17522.347,"end":17532.859,"text":"部長好像也不是很諒解因為其實據我們了解勞動部很多同仁現在都一直在看部長的態度都希望部長針對這部分真的要研辦因為"},{"start":17537.564,"end":17556.457,"text":"從我剛剛看臨時動議我一直覺得部長好像給我感覺好像還是有一點包袱針對這個停職的部分你一直好像並沒有很明確而且希望好像還希望有轉圜的餘地不是不是委員我跟您報告這絕對會是我考慮的範圍而且"},{"start":17564.611,"end":17574.949,"text":"這個是沒有問題的對啊我希望部長你還是要表現你的態度啦那剛剛很多委員也擔心這分署長如果還待在分署裡面"},{"start":17576.089,"end":17599.551,"text":"可能還是會影響這個調查報告他不會再在分署裡面所以基本上如果他停職近代調查我覺得對部長也是一個好事那現在部長的態度我希望說要讓給我們勞動部這些同仁要有信心要感覺是真的要來處理這件事情不要變成很多事情他們不敢真正表態還利用網路去爆料去講這些事情"},{"start":17600.231,"end":17618.727,"text":"希望這個調查報告在做的時候能夠得到社會大眾的認同因為針對我們謝分署長其實剛剛早上大家也知道你看他到分署不到兩年的時間這退離職就高達81個人有6個人是自願降職來調離的"},{"start":17621.269,"end":17635.595,"text":"所以想想看這個官場大家都希望升職居然這麼多人寧可掉職都要離開這個地方所以這部分我相信大家都很想知道為什麼我們憲分署長有這麼強硬的後台還有這個報告"},{"start":17640.444,"end":17663.408,"text":"其實裡面也不用再講了這是什麼目的良善什麼這個整早上大家委員還有很多社會大眾都對這個報告真的看不下去還有我們針對分署長他在這個職務之前我請問一下他之前有沒有發生過類似霸凌的事情在這之前做分署長之前我不瞭解這要問署長"},{"start":17664.301,"end":17691.874,"text":"蔡署長報告委員之前並沒有之前並沒有嗎對所以所以其實我們了解喔這個縣署長霸凌的行為你們的報告是說跟情緒管理溝通能力有關那其實喔像針對這部分我們是覺得我們分署啊那個蔡署長你你可以說明一下我們的北分署他的業務大概有幾個重點嗎"},{"start":17694.071,"end":17716.185,"text":"跟委員報告喔北分署現在是我們五個分署裡面轄區最大那基本上他的業務的承載量大概佔了將近三分之一他主要的業務範圍主要就是就業服務、職業訓練、技能檢定還有一些相關移工的相關事務對嘛所以其實他的重點就在就業服務跟職業訓練的部分那其實謝分署長喔"},{"start":17717.728,"end":17726.095,"text":"我們看一下他的資歷喔其實他做這個分署長你看一下你看他裡面哪一個資歷是跟就業服務跟職業訓練有關係的"},{"start":17729.96,"end":17731.66,"text":"我本人就是我本來是在移工業務但是後來我到中區執訓做職業訓練"},{"start":17759.993,"end":17776.267,"text":"對那針對這部分我們認為你看剛剛署長你有講他之前沒有之前我們分署長你看他之前沒有一些霸凌的事情發生然後後來"},{"start":17777.793,"end":17791.873,"text":"他做這個分署長其實跟他的業務並沒有他的專長然後你看一下他的資歷其實主管的是公關業務跟新人聯絡人其實照這樣來講他的EQ跟溝通能力應該是沒有關係的"},{"start":17793.095,"end":17813.368,"text":"那可是你看他到這個團隊來其實會讓人家感覺他外行在領導這個內行然後整天要我們的同仁發新聞稿做媒體經營所以難怪會造成我們下面的同仁感覺壓力很大"},{"start":17815.854,"end":17831.191,"text":"署長你有沒有覺得當初升任他做分署長的時候是依什麼考量而且看這樣來講人家說他是做直升級也沒有擔任他只是部裡的一個專委一下就升到分署長這個是不是感覺升官的途徑有點快"},{"start":17834.485,"end":17863.778,"text":"報告委員這個案子其實我們每位主管在升任的過程當中會有一些評估那當然他現在針對這個事件有一些不當的情況我想這個都必須要深切去檢討對啊所以署長因為這個事情那時候大家直指當然是不是我們何沛山部長的任內升的分署長是之前我們許民春部長然後我們的署長也是我們蔡孟良署長那其實媒體一直報導這你們就是"},{"start":17865.749,"end":17881.774,"text":"同一個派系聽說是我們局系一脈相傳下來然後許民村部長然後也是然後我們這個謝分署長聽說也是我們蔡署長的愛將我希望針對這個部分的問題我們還是要嚴加來"},{"start":17886.127,"end":17906.772,"text":"查看、針對這個調查報告一定要詳細的來做因為我們從我們整體評估這個結果你看其實我們勞動部針對這個報告我們剛剛問了那麼多我們發現勞動部有很多問題他是不敢面對而且一直在迴避他"},{"start":17907.552,"end":17921.831,"text":"整個報告只針對情緒失控跟言語暴力還有職場霸凌跟同仁恣意這兩個部分去處理其實縱觀看我們謝芬署長他本身不是這個"},{"start":17923.492,"end":17942.288,"text":"專業本行出身那他的外行要領導我們下面這些高普考這些這些我們勞動部分屬的這些官員所以他本身喔對於職業訓練跟就業服務也不是專長也不是在行所以他欠缺了我們業務的能力"},{"start":17942.952,"end":17966.938,"text":"而且在看他的資歷來講也是屬於我們署長跟前部長破格任用那當然他本身外行領導內行我們認為他本身到這個位置以前沒有霸凌的問題後來為什麼有我們是認為應該是他自己本身壓力太大所以我們希望除了之前針對"},{"start":17968.238,"end":17968.258,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":17997.165,"end":18023.237,"text":"好,那部長跟署長也辛苦喔,但是喔我們希望喔,勞動部從這一次之後能夠痛丁失痛喔,把一些我們這些問題喔藉由這一次的調查報告我們來釐清,大家好好來檢討改善因為我們勞動部喔,勞動部喔是我們全國最高的勞工的中央機關喔大家都非常關注喔好,謝謝謝謝主委,謝謝部長來,接續我們請楊耀偉委員質詢"},{"start":18035.141,"end":18050.13,"text":"謝謝主席 主席請一下何部長和蔡署長部長好 署長好署長我先問一個問題聽說你們勞動力發展署大樓裡面有長官的專屬電梯"},{"start":18063.19,"end":18063.831,"text":"我現在這樣子直接講"},{"start":18093.09,"end":18117.786,"text":"為什麼我先提電梯呢?這就是會養成一個官僚的心態啊立法院衛環委員會在8樓,財政委員會在9樓,我們也沒有委員專題啊你們用了一個長官專題,我為什麼特別提出來?因為這種習性不改,你就沒有辦法痛定思痛啊"},{"start":18119.758,"end":18129.905,"text":"很多職場上的行為是源自一個看似無關的情況產生的"},{"start":18133.697,"end":18155.034,"text":"我還是這一次才知道說書店分書店這麼大有專用的路好不好我直接問你啦那個是大樓管委會設定的大樓管理管委會不是我們管委會設定你們不能主動要求不要啊"},{"start":18157.015,"end":18178.831,"text":"對這個這個我們我就說我就說我真的不想不想在這裡太為難你可是你們回復真的要很小心我就不相信我就不相信你們沒有要求人家特別特別弄了一個長官的的座梯然後你們你們沒有能力去去更改這個現象我才不相信就是說"},{"start":18188.594,"end":18211.509,"text":"這個王顧的公務員在事發前10月22到11月1號大概每天都是早上7點多上班到下午7、8點才下班啊血汗啊你們勞動部主管全國勞工的工作權益你們自己這麼搞啊"},{"start":18213.766,"end":18240.356,"text":"然後分組長有的時候會半夜一點五點給人家傳訊息不回隔天就修理人這個是不是事實兩件事情第一件第一件可以很明確就是就是從10月22到11月10號早上每天都是早上五點多上班到七八點這個是不是事實報告委員這是事實"},{"start":18242.762,"end":18266.115,"text":"分署長有沒有都是把有時候會半夜1點多交付交辦事項然後或者是5點多沒有回會修理人這個是不是事實報告委員這個調查報告裡面有呈現這個部分有對不對好那欸"},{"start":18270.801,"end":18298.996,"text":"為什麼這樣子長期超時工作的單位北分署跟勞發署是同一個同一個辦公大樓是不是是所以嘛你們做專題嘛所以你們聽不到基層的聲音嘛你事前全部都不知道不知道北分署這麼血汗不知道你知道嗎"},{"start":18300.342,"end":18324.901,"text":"發委員因為沒有來北分署沒有跟我們做好北分署沒有跟你做那個那我給你一個資料從謝宜榮分署長到任到去年年底北分署離職率高了一倍啊從5點多%攀升到11%多"},{"start":18328.666,"end":18354.766,"text":"最新的統計數字今年的離職率來到13.5這麼高的離職率你作為署長你全部沒有覺得假如不是工作內容太繁複工作環境太差就是領導同意有問題你全部不告不理"},{"start":18358.41,"end":18371.057,"text":"你任何一點感覺都沒有不覺得這種離職率太高離職的人裡面81人其中有17個是主管職務總會到你那裡吧你不覺得奇怪怪不怪保委員這個是異常這個確實我們必須要檢討異常書定你現在承認異常"},{"start":18388.513,"end":18398.197,"text":"那這個狀態是持續性的你為什麼要等到悲劇發生了全國的民意沸騰了你們才要檢討為什麼有收過投訴案嗎"},{"start":18414.775,"end":18439.656,"text":"有嗎?所以沒有投訴你們就不會從相關的數據自己去去去看看這個你看喔南分數的離職率是5%阿是北分數的三成阿三分之一阿蘇定比比是你的分數"},{"start":18442.438,"end":18470.86,"text":"有一個離職率這麼高你們也不主動去關心看看而且還跟你同一棟辦公室好我再問剛剛組長在回復土委員的時候說謝芬組長派任前並沒有霸凌的前科對不對對不對沒有接到投訴沒有好"},{"start":18472.165,"end":18499.826,"text":"你知道為什麼嗎?他在從是公職以來到他當分署長他的主管職務是什麼?主管歷練是什麼?他歷練過什麼組長?主管有幹過組長嗎?科長有幹過啦?科長有沒有?有有齁組長有嗎?"},{"start":18501.94,"end":18502.781,"text":"沒有副組長有嗎沒有那當然沒有機會讓他表現啊那為什麼為什麼這樣子可以破格任用為什麼為什麼"},{"start":18526.179,"end":18531.821,"text":"跟委員報告因為是因為你們其他的副分署長都不堪用還是真的謝分署長有通天的本領"},{"start":18540.376,"end":18564.243,"text":"發言委員其實完全沒有這個因素的考慮沒有這個因素沒有這個因素會有一個會有一個只當過科長主管歷練的人直接直接就跑去當分署長然後署長來這邊還回覆其他的委員說他在當分署長之前沒有沒有霸凌的前科是他沒有機會啊"},{"start":18573.627,"end":18600.3,"text":"蘇定 大家都說謝芬署長是你和徐明川前部長的愛將所以才破格任用你有沒有什麼話要說報告委員 署長的任用並不會單純去考慮這個因素因為我們完全是以能力跟他的私人性去處理好 主席不好意思我再耽誤一點點時間"},{"start":18603.834,"end":18631.36,"text":"這種這種任用這種升格任用有算不算違反常規你直接這樣子這樣子回答就好了我不要說破格破格你們可能覺得覺得不好聽有沒有違反常規你們現在的分署長裡面跟謝分署長同樣用用這種模式升到分署長的有誰"},{"start":18634.636,"end":18651.961,"text":"各位委員報告,像以我們現在的分數其實就是要考慮到他要符合身兼的一個資格我知道啦,我知道你沒有違法任用啦我現在說有沒有違反常規嘛因為他的主管歷練太少了嘛我認為就是因為他的主管任用歷練太少所以才會爆發這件事嘛"},{"start":18663.598,"end":18674.723,"text":"你沒有讓他有發揮領導統一能力的職務歷練你就把他提到分署長這個職務所以我光是聽錄音檔我就覺得那個不是一個政府的機關一個單位是一個幫派的堂口"},{"start":18695.869,"end":18701.072,"text":"蘇帝努你之前跟他說有沒有違法當然沒有違法啊我現在就是問說違反常規為什麼你和許民尊部長當初當初任用他"},{"start":18718.082,"end":18732.718,"text":"要做分署長讓你們會介意他沒有經過所長、沒有做過副署長、直接對專委空降去當分署長表示你們對他的領導同意是很有把握的嘛是不用透過其他的職務來考核你們就絕對信任嘛"},{"start":18750.193,"end":18754.375,"text":"委員這個是我自己都要自我檢討我會自我反省署長一條人命啊"},{"start":18781.581,"end":18796.193,"text":"你們主管全國勞工工作權益保障的單位六七年來應該做的事情不做惹出了一大堆遺憾的事啊蘇甯這六七年保甯"},{"start":18808.564,"end":18812.067,"text":"部長很遺憾是發生在你的任內那你來趙委員請坐我真的這裡講完就結束很遺憾就是你也已經來6個月了在這段時間"},{"start":18834.656,"end":18858.744,"text":"你沒有發現到內部有這麼嚴重的霸凌事件我覺得你也要負一些責任不是說大家為難你們因為這個是這一件事情不好好處理"},{"start":18860.402,"end":18879.568,"text":"這一件事情不好好處理我覺得我覺得全國人民對於對於執政團隊會非常的失望而且而且特別是對勞動部我剛剛講的就是我的觀察這六七年來六七年啊"},{"start":18881.171,"end":18902.282,"text":"勞動部很少幹過一件好的事情倒是惹出了這麼大的憾事好 謝謝主席 謝謝部長好 謝謝 謝謝楊耀那我們現在休息3分鐘行政院那邊來拜託啦 有事情啦"},{"start":18907.125,"end":18908.005,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":18933.814,"end":18934.214,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":18960.842,"end":18976.629,"text":"請勞動部長、銓敘部、國防部、內政部警政署、行政院、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會"},{"start":18979.816,"end":18987.46,"text":"請勞動部長、銓敘部、國防部、內政部、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會"},{"start":18991.328,"end":18992.549,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19016.839,"end":19017.359,"text":"好,我來跟他們說。"},{"start":19042.419,"end":19043,"text":"多謝您的收看。"},{"start":19167.104,"end":19194.978,"text":"好繼續開會接續請郭國文委員執行謝謝主席有請何沛山部長跟蔡夢良署長部長署長請我也好部長署長我現在用很沉重的心情來看這件事情"},{"start":19196.87,"end":19224.481,"text":"勞動部的這一個霸凌事件的檢討報告不承認霸凌但是勞動部的這個霸凌報告其實是霸凌了台灣社會侮辱了大家對這個事件本質的認知我不會全然怪部長跟署長這裡頭有制度的問題有文化的問題還有心態的問題特別是權傾一詞人的心態特別容易霸凌別人"},{"start":19225.595,"end":19252.089,"text":"保發中心就曾經發生過的事情在上個月的時候還來我的辦公室來做說明公不明霸凌的文化是如此盛行這真的是值得讓我們好好自我深思的地方部長不瞞你說我也在勞動部任職過我如果說我有被霸凌你相信嗎這就是權傾一時的文化所造成的結果"},{"start":19253.547,"end":19280.601,"text":"所以我們面對這個文化的時候我不會覺得科則你部長、科則你署長我絕對不是來護航但是我們坐在這個位置擔任這個角色我們能做什麼我覺得你要一肩扛起如果有人說要請你辭職我倒是覺得你要一肩扛起待事情到一段的程度之後再來面對我們能夠作為一個政治工作者能改善多少都是我們作為一個政治工作者的一個責任"},{"start":19283.12,"end":19311.995,"text":"我舉一個例子來說你早上說要重新檢討我相信是承擔責任的重新開始我希望你用最快的時間裡頭來重新面對社會的認知此外呢我也調過衛福委員會曾經在109年、110年、11年的時候都有職場霸凌的專報那時候依照職安法的時候提出一個執行職務遭受不法侵害的預防指引"},{"start":19313.635,"end":19342.88,"text":"提出這個指引當中我特別去看他還有寫到說要對於受害人應提供立即性、持續性及支持性的保護措施我想請問你無性員工這件事情有受到這樣的保護措施嗎?在你的認知當中?沒有這還是勞動部自行公布的這還是勞動部自行公布的好我們再來看看"},{"start":19344.824,"end":19372.485,"text":"人事總處的時候曾經發文要求各部會當中要有員工職場霸凌防治與處理作業要點我在網路上看看到的只有教育部我沒有看到勞動部我想請問一下勞動部有嗎人事總處就是說我們連制度上面對這種霸凌文化的一個"},{"start":19374.096,"end":19402.939,"text":"整治的時候我們都如此怠惰好 我再跟您說我們如果從制度面來說的話日本在2019年的時候勞動施策綜合推進法納入這個霸凌的這個規定也就有一個事前的預防跟事後的立即因應特別強調僱主有義務及責任因應及防範職場霸凌這也就俗稱的職場霸凌防治法"},{"start":19404.67,"end":19430.431,"text":"可是呢我們臺灣目前為止都還是停留在指導行政命令部長我慎重的請教你你認為這個指導命令有沒有需要法制化的空間有沒有需要法制化的可能你認為需要有法制化的空間法制化的回答在這個整個也就是說你願意來推動這個職場霸凌法"},{"start":19432.955,"end":19458.653,"text":"是不是專法或許可以再討論是不是專法或許是但是如果專法是展現決心個別條文的這個法制化也是另一種展現問題是不是能夠防治啊所以我是覺得你趁這個事件當中應該對外宣示講得很清楚勞動部願意從這個事件當中痛定思痛徹底檢討"},{"start":19460.964,"end":19471.711,"text":"從勞動部本身啊就要去除掉這個職場霸凌的文化用最嚴格的標準來檢驗自己用最嚴格的標準來做為示範部長當然當然這是一定要的我希望你的眼淚可以化為力量我們期待這制度文化可以改變謝謝謝謝郭國文委員謝謝部長接著請楊祥平委員質詢"},{"start":19497.082,"end":19523.993,"text":"主席本席楊全宇發言 邀請部長跟署長委員好部長 大家都沉痛的心情但是我們還是要實質討論一個政府應該是先知先覺當有了事情是有知有覺但是我現在看到的沒有先知先覺"},{"start":19526.019,"end":19545.351,"text":"甚至也沒有有知有覺現在是不知不覺從早上回答到現在首先請問在一個單位上任一年半已經有81個理事17個主管難道你們的部門都沒發覺嗎都沒發覺嗎17個主管都沒發覺嗎"},{"start":19551.523,"end":19570.337,"text":"為什麼我們以往說勞動部是勞工的靠山對不對勞動部是勞工的靠山對不對對不對勞動部是勞工的靠山對不對那現在出現什麼勞動部帶頭當慣老闆整個的過程發生到現在"},{"start":19580.694,"end":19596.184,"text":"非但沒有依法也沒有防範也沒有處置怎麼辦也沒有維護所以本期在這邊請教第一個到底是誰生的這麼樣破格到底是誰生的委員因為我那是在我上任前的事情我真的部長誰生的"},{"start":19610.745,"end":19627.317,"text":"有誰要吞嚕?誰生的?是你自己生嗎?你背後誰叫你生的?誰叫你生的?你要不要講出來?你自己要吞嚕?誰叫你生的?你要不要講?你要不要講?你不要講?你要講?誰指示你生的嘛?"},{"start":19640.931,"end":19657.16,"text":"對不對 誰指示你生的 署長 你不要自己吞嚕啦 誰指示你生的 有沒有人指示你生你陳抱到布裡頭 當然要陳抱到布裡頭啊 誰指示你生的我們現在解決問題 還原真相 誰指示你生"},{"start":19667.205,"end":19685.709,"text":"發言委員,其實這個沒有只是申請了,這是因為有整個考量之後,那依照程序簽報了。署長你有駕駛也好,你不講,你自己吞嚕,我們繼續來討論。81個離職在這樣的情況之下,其中這一年半,你們有沒有輔導?有沒有?"},{"start":19689.264,"end":19693.267,"text":"有沒有輔導?都沒有輔導來又說要法辦告密者從二月份到現在通通不知不覺造成這樣子的難過的事件發生怎麼對得起?怎麼對得起?你們都不講"},{"start":19716.896,"end":19724.038,"text":"發現這麼嚴肅跳通的事情也沒有去輔導也沒有去了解什麼原因通通都沒有為什麼我們是政府耶政府是人民的表率耶離譜自己不知不覺真的不知不覺麻木不仁"},{"start":19750.131,"end":19758.958,"text":"哪有一個勞工的靠山勞動部竟然要由外圍來讓你知道事情怎麼可能會如此這個政府出了什麼問題你也不講誰指示你生發現這麼嚴肅的過程也沒有輔導"},{"start":19776.158,"end":19781.322,"text":"我們自己勞動部一天到晚說我是勞工的保障者你自己帶頭當慣老闆而且還麻木不仁怎麼問怎麼問從早上問到現在沒有方向怎麼問沒有內容沒有過程所以我請問"},{"start":19806.26,"end":19834.119,"text":"我們執行職務遭受不法侵害這個預防的質疑這也是我們自己定的也是勞動部自己定的性騷擾大家發覺社會面向這有嚴肅的議題了不斷的公聽會不斷的討論大家不斷的提案不分藍綠白大家努力來去解決這個問題性騷擾防治法通過"},{"start":19835.188,"end":19862.449,"text":"至少它有一個嚇阻作用會不會將執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引的內容將職場霸凌的部分提升到法的位階會不會事情經過了那麼久你們有沒有一項可以告訴民眾告訴我們的勞工可以怎樣讓我們的勞工來放心你至少要做這個工作啊部長"},{"start":19863.499,"end":19884.058,"text":"報告委員我是財主署長容我來說這簡單的回答我們現在依照職安法第6條第2項確實有職場霸凌其他預防的一些明確的條文規定那我們在事宜性質也訂了一個指引所以早上部長有跟其他委員做一些口頭的回答說我們這個指引的法效性在做強化這部分我們會做後面這個職安法修法的"},{"start":19886.127,"end":19899.914,"text":"我們現在這個子安法的預告應該是在預告版本的時候把這個條文一起納出來討論應該是在下個會期我們希望子安法這個修法包括這不法侵害的強化性的條文在下個會期能夠到立法院來做請委員來跟我們做一些質詢"},{"start":19904.056,"end":19916.809,"text":"已經碰到這麼嚴肅的議題我們立法要有經過預告程序然後到行政院去審核再會到送到那個立法院來做審查那你就明白讓他們在整個過程你們已經有這個指引你們有沒有有依照這個指引來輔導這個無信"},{"start":19921.013,"end":19921.333,"text":"每一個社會層面層層相扣"},{"start":19940.191,"end":19966.201,"text":"所以你現在給本席回答的也就是你認為必須要將執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引的部分必須要位階提高拉到法的一個層次而且去明定之而且他的整個強化整個實際的救濟管道讓他非常的明確而不是投訴無門由外圍來包圍內部跟委員報告是不是如此請告訴本席方向是不是如此"},{"start":19966.721,"end":19967.181,"text":"提醒委員．部長．"},{"start":19988.359,"end":20016.408,"text":"我們來討論一個實質問題剛剛你所屬的主管所講的我們有什麼法有什麼指引但是我說的盲目不仁都沒有做造成今天的憾事你心裡作何感想您告訴我們說這一位人員禮拜五你要公佈他要到哪個單位去對不對"},{"start":20018.194,"end":20041.567,"text":"是不是是不是委員我會馬上對他作出處分你說什麼我會馬上對他作出處分不是你早上有回答嗎我們在看啊你說你會在禮拜五的時候22號去公佈是嗎他要到哪個單位是不是如此我想會比禮拜五更早"},{"start":20043.168,"end":20056.878,"text":"會比禮拜五更早好 不管這個時間因為早上你的回答是禮拜五所以本席也要預防性的告訴你當他到哪一個單位會不會製造另一個單位的恐慌會不會 你要怎麼處理你要如何怎樣去激你諮商大家會不會有另外一個轉移戰場的一個恐慌會不會不是把他丟到哪一個單位就沒事啊"},{"start":20071.957,"end":20097.614,"text":"部長你沒想到這一點當然當然那你怎麼做你說未必禮拜五今天禮拜三明天禮拜四你原本在早上說禮拜五公佈那你有做本席剛剛所說的嗎我想委員會也都做出建議的處分方式委員會做出建議的處分你是部長本席要請教當他到任何一個單位那會不會製造另外一個單位的一個恐慌"},{"start":20098.789,"end":20101.11,"text":"你會對他作出停止的處分?是。什麼時候?"},{"start":20125.762,"end":20126.222,"text":"在最快的時間內"},{"start":20147.295,"end":20147.375,"text":"好 謝謝委員"},{"start":20172.202,"end":20176.586,"text":"好 謝謝委員 謝謝部長 接續我們請黃建豪委員質詢好 謝謝主席 主席我們先請這個教育部人事處處長"},{"start":20194.76,"end":20197.743,"text":"行政院人事行政總處、中國國安處處長、考試院保訓中規處處長、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會保障處處長請教育部處長"},{"start":20218.45,"end":20246.506,"text":"處長好處長在這個質詢開始為什麼先找你們是因為在這個勞動部的霸凌事件成為新聞事件之前我想媒體有報導過這個你們教育部所屬的海科館館長也是霸凌員工也有錄音檔那也確實他也講說自己是求好心切跟我們今天的這個勞動部本身這個案子一樣大家都是求好心切啊求好心切但是他一樣對員工產生是霸凌那這件事情之前立法院也有來質詢過"},{"start":20247.526,"end":20268.536,"text":"那我想問一下到底以這個案子為例現在你們處理進度到哪裡跟委員報告從媒體在10月23號揭露以後我們在隔天就立刻請管方就相關的媒體先跟我們做說明然後說明了之後我們在10月30號就有到海科管區做實地的訪視就媒體所揭露的相關事項做進一步的瞭解"},{"start":20269.516,"end":20292.902,"text":"那目前我們這個相關的了解的情形還在整理中我們會再召開相關的會議邀請相關的委員還有專家學者來共同來討論我想這就是教育部大家要看到啦今天我不是針對你我想說這你可能也不是真的主管你只能來代表來發言但是像勞動部這事情發生之後就是因為這幾天大家非常關注所以這個分署長他現在這個請假被調職了"},{"start":20293.962,"end":20295.904,"text":"你們的確有一個這樣子的流程處理表那裡面呢"},{"start":20318.971,"end":20347.88,"text":"每一件事情的救濟程序發生時間到調查到處理基本上都是要找自己的主管來處理嘛那你提到說如果涉機關首長像如果是涉案的話要向上級機關提出申訴這個是你們的處理流程那這個是不是指導而已他沒有什麼強制約束力因為裡面也提到說如果當事人只有口頭告知沒有提出申訴的話建議機關要幫這個當事人提起申訴也是建議而已是不是這樣子"},{"start":20349.244,"end":20377.092,"text":"原則上這個我們也都有要求各機關雖然他是一個指導的一個性質但我們也是有要求各機關要落實來處理那就回到剛剛其他委員提到了那這個東西是不是應該把它法制化因為你現在變指引而已啊所以剛剛提到了像比如說今天是因為勞動部是爐主啊所以他的這個分數獎被掉了那教育部就沒事啊這個館長他持續在當他館長啊那這個制度化怎麼產生呢沒有辦法處理耶那再來繼續"},{"start":20378.615,"end":20391.004,"text":"我剛好手上因為時間比較少我手上有一個陳情案一個地方基層的中央單位10月6號的時候當事人受到員工丟紙箱恐嚇並咆哮"},{"start":20395.385,"end":20417.868,"text":"在這個10月7號的時候單位主管確認有此事那一直都沒有處理10月24號的時候這個陳慶仁把這個投訴信函寄到主管的信箱24號寄到之後30號應該都沒有收到這回應從事發到30號已經過三週了都沒有收到回應所以家屬在致電在網上呈報就如同你們的指引一樣往往上向機關首長提出申訴"},{"start":20419.029,"end":20447.705,"text":"結果才發現這個信箱從來都沒有被打開過所以才發現原來這幾天的申訴都沒有意義那終於10月30號打電話去說我有這個陳情案之後11月1號單位主管才開始處理那當然最後處理說也是把那個人調職調到隔壁單位而已所以他們還是遇到我待會一樣會把這個相關案件提供給相關單位給職業單位但是今天為什麼先請整治行政總處跟保訓處還有考試院先上來我要問的是說像這種事情"},{"start":20448.578,"end":20463.153,"text":"他投訴無門了那這怎麼辦如果今天我是一個基層公務人員我投訴我的主管對我實施霸凌結果主管不處理我往上呈報他沒有打那通電話去講說你有沒有收到我的信"},{"start":20464.385,"end":20491.878,"text":"他從頭到尾都沒有開那個信箱那我想問一下這到底要怎麼處理啊你們要怎麼處理你們要怎麼保障公務員因為你們在你們的報告裡面也寫到說有很多的法令你們可以提供申訴管道你們是這個準司法機關等等的可以來提供申訴的救濟那到底在實務上就算不管是以今天我今天收到的陳情案來講也好還是今天勞動部發分數長發生的事情也好還是之前海科管的事情也好那表示整個公務人員的申訴霸凌機制是無效的吧"},{"start":20493.581,"end":20497.219,"text":"三位你要怎麼做成這個怎麼解決這樣的問題"},{"start":20498.818,"end":20525.093,"text":"因為各機關其實他都會有他的一個申訴管道如果說這個同仁他在服務機關有這樣的情形那他可以跟服務機關來提出申訴我知道提出啦沒有用啊上級機關其實機關主管首長或者上級機關其實他對於這些相關的事項也可以透過指揮監督的方式來就事實的部分來去做瞭解進一步處理"},{"start":20527.515,"end":20551.63,"text":"我具體再問一次好了就以這個我手上收到的陳情案例為例就好今天他找到主管沒有用的時候就像之前找勞動部他們這個投訴沒有用之後那他到底怎麼辦有人是行政總處有這個流程保訓處也說自己是這個可以處理考試院也說可以處理那到底一個基層公務人遇到"},{"start":20558.072,"end":20580.851,"text":"我想過去性騷擾防治是走了這麼多年現在才有一個製作化那這個霸凌的問題現在變成只是指導原則而已嘛那我今天請大家來你們都來到這邊寫了這麼多報告那我想問啊如果今天以這個犧牲公務人員今天遇到這個事情就好了那他到底要找誰他主管都不處理他怎麼辦呢找明代嗎每次都只能找明代嗎明代那麼多人可以找"},{"start":20582.285,"end":20595.79,"text":"跟委員報告就是說跟機關提出申訴之後機關依照規定要在30天內要給他做一個處理那如果疫情沒有的話他可以直接跟保訓會提出再申訴是這樣子"},{"start":20598.439,"end":20623.977,"text":"好今天時間有限了但是我要希望說我們的人事行政總處也好考試院也好或是公務人員這個保障培訓委員會也好到底這個主管機關如果霸凌事件產生之後你們的最終救濟管道除了單位主管當然很顯然在這個我剛提出的幾個事件來講他是失效的那到底要誰來處理這是誰能夠提出報告出來是人事行政總處呢還是考試院還是你們各自為政"},{"start":20630.307,"end":20645.629,"text":"跟委員報告就是說在公務人員保障法其實還有安慰辦法他都有相關的規定那另外就是說如果是屬於人民陳情案件的話在人民陳情案件的處理上面他在相關規定不是人民陳情就是公務員陳情"},{"start":20646.957,"end":20650.178,"text":"這邊講人民其實也包括公務人員因為他跟機關提出陳情這個機關依規定你就是要去做處理"},{"start":20667.486,"end":20692.083,"text":"那如果對於機關的處理或者回復有不符的話那當然他這個如果是屬於管理措施剛剛陳儒考試院代表所提的如果他對這個管理措施他認為機關處理不符的話他可以有保障法的救濟在保訓會那邊也有相關的救濟規定所以最後的救濟是在保訓會是不是公務人員好 謝謝"},{"start":20694.904,"end":20697.126,"text":"謝謝,謝謝黃委員。接下來我們請齊巧欣委員質詢。謝謝主席,我們有請何部長。"},{"start":20720.073,"end":20745.233,"text":"部長我今天看了一整天的質詢我覺得非常的傻眼喔你們到現在還在說這件事情是平庸的邪惡但是你們今天呢說這份所謂的檢討報告叫做噁心利邪對方只是利益良善這等同於你們到現在還在包屁還在輕描淡寫甚至說這不算情節最重大我要告訴你你們這樣子才叫做平庸的邪惡"},{"start":20746.514,"end":20764.172,"text":"再來逼死人的是分署長開記者會的時候道歉的是你跟次長是怎樣分署長是比你們還要大尾嗎今天專案報告我們談霸凌的事情他還是請假要躲到22號那平常他跟員工大小聲的時候怎麼就這麼囂張部長你是不是說謝以榮今天沒有出來是因為他心情不好"},{"start":20772.509,"end":20790.998,"text":"我沒有這個意思但你是不是說他是因為心情不好所以他沒有來我不是這個意思那你是什麼意思他應該要出來可是我不知道他為什麼沒有出來他應該要出來但你不知道為什麼要出來所以你現在你很氣你也很氣嗎他不應該啦他不應該所以你有沒有叫他出來"},{"start":20794.983,"end":20814.948,"text":"委員你是指哪一天我說現在啊就這兩天啊記者會還有今天啊這兩天啊事情爆發之後你們開了記者會我沒有看過記者會是當事逼死人的人沒有出來你一個部長一個次長在那邊鞠躬道歉為什麼他人不在為什麼今天他人也不在為什麼要拖到22號才要出來你有沒有叫他出來嘛"},{"start":20824.314,"end":20833.791,"text":"委員因為因為什麼我想因為調查報告裡面我們的心理諮商室的專家是覺得他的精神狀態是有點"},{"start":20835.993,"end":20852.431,"text":"因為他精神狀態不宜那我問你喔你今天質詢你就哭那被那些霸凌這麼久的、輕生的他心情好嗎?他能哭嗎?這個謝宜蓉現在說精神不好那那些被霸凌致死的人他們心情好嗎?他們能哭嗎?"},{"start":20854.656,"end":20881.413,"text":"一條生命就這樣走了他能哭嗎他哭過多少次了所以他才選擇這樣的方式然後你今天告訴我因為覺得評估他精神上可能不是很好就不知道躲到牛年馬月就等著掉職然後你們給我一個八頁的報告就這樣所以你們這些人根本沒有檢討就是麻木不仁我寫你們寫的八頁報告你知道有多矛盾嗎我一個一個唸給你聽你們一開始就先說霸凌不是主因"},{"start":20882.233,"end":20907.185,"text":"然後呢你們再繼續講你們說呢這個所謂的說明明他就講過數位小組同仁曾經主動說要協助那他為了避免連累同仁所以沒有提出加班申請那他的主管呢他的主管知不知道他有加班如果主管知道這個人每天都加班很辛苦了為什麼沒有幫他主動說我要幫他寫加班費"},{"start":20909.642,"end":20918.145,"text":"沒有申請你們就當沒有這回事了嗎這是一個主管該做的事嗎我自己的助理他沒有跟我申請加班我看到他在加班還是會給他加班費啊部長是什麼"},{"start":20925.293,"end":20953.868,"text":"是什麼嘛?他當然就是完全做錯的事情而且非常不應該非常不應該你們永遠是這句話但是你們要說這不算是霸凌委員他應該要受到應得的懲罰是那他算不算霸凌嘛你們報告裡面就說這不是算霸凌我就請問我們的報告有說他是霸凌他是霸凌他是啊他霸凌所以這個員工你們也認定他是因為受到這個分署長霸凌而致死這是主要的原因是嗎?"},{"start":20956.107,"end":20980.076,"text":"委員我們的報告有承認他就是霸凌我剛剛問的問題是這個人他是因為長時間的受到了這名分署長的霸凌而選擇親身的你們報告裡面並沒有做這樣子的解釋跟說明沒有歸因我現在問你是不是如此是不是我剛剛說的那樣的陳述是你們調查報告我想一定有受到他霸凌的影響只是影響再來我們要再講一下"},{"start":20984.318,"end":21013.106,"text":"你們這裡在後面第三頁你寫說問卷回饋當中無從得知關心人甲是否向主管反利人應不足問題是前面資訊小組的其他人就說願意協助他代表很多人都知道這件事啊然後你們說雖有工作時程要求要加重其壓力但又無法證明長官有過度要求之情形這不是完全就是矛盾嗎你們的報告本身就是矛盾啊"},{"start":21014.583,"end":21028.238,"text":"還要求同仁不要外傳此事我要講一下給大家聽一下那個錄音這件事情事發之後如果他有一絲一毫的覺得自己應該要檢討我覺得今天大家不會這麼憤怒"},{"start":21030.041,"end":21045.578,"text":"這件事情爆發出來之後他找了他找了他其他的同仁來他說什麼我不允許大家在外面給我說嘴什麼職場霸凌然後他說什麼你知道他說什麼嗎他問大家做得到嗎部長如果我今天這樣問你"},{"start":21050.212,"end":21061.348,"text":"這個人我問你部長你要下台大家做得到嗎這個人他要停職大家做得到嗎然後你要回答什麼他說要大家回答做得到"},{"start":21062.281,"end":21089.029,"text":"然後呢 坐在這第一次太小聲了大家做得到嗎做得到這是什麼直銷大會啊事情已經發生了人已經死了這個分署長還在那邊給我開直銷大會大家做得到嗎做得到選舉是不是啊這不是說話大聲而已你們把他裡面寫成說話大聲抱歉這不是說話大聲而已事情發生以後他還把所有人找過來說你們不准對外說這是職場霸凌"},{"start":21090.329,"end":21104.78,"text":"這什麼樣的人啊你們這是一個什麼樣的部會啊最後我要講什麼如要求上班時間內以外的跑步活動可不可以最後說明一下你們所調查所謂的跑步活動是什麼跑步活動是怎麼跑的"},{"start":21106.516,"end":21108.777,"text":"我問的是他跑步的行為是怎麼樣的行為怎麼樣的行為你說給我聽是什麼樣的跑步行為"},{"start":21134.175,"end":21152.071,"text":"跟委員報告我們在訪談那個有跟跟他們的同仁有做過訪談然後也有立名信那這個訪談是講到這個跑步是在那個上班時間他是為了要維護同仁的健康所以他有這樣平常這樣"},{"start":21153.993,"end":21154.033,"text":"所以"},{"start":21166.522,"end":21187.787,"text":"所以他的行為已經脫離已經不正常啦脫離現實啦脫離現實好我最後再問一下部長我覺得你剛剛呢你還沒有完全了解狀況你一直告訴我們這報告呕心瀝血我只是提出一個所謂的上班時間以內工作跑步活動是什麼樣的狀況你要別人幫你打"},{"start":21189.427,"end":21216.212,"text":"這個本來就是本來就是怎麼樣是人事處他們去做反調那你不用了解嗎你是部長發生了這麼大一件事情我們今天從早上質詢到現在我問你他到底犯錯犯在哪裡具體而言你要讓別人幫你回答你自己回答不出來沒有責任嗎這已經不是說那是前朝的事情了這是現在你們調查報告就是寫得非常糟糕的問題最後我問一個問題北分署的離退人數我們看一下powerpoint"},{"start":21217.592,"end":21219.554,"text":"我請署長打好嗎?可以"},{"start":21241.527,"end":21242.228,"text":"112年北溫署離隊36人,113年北溫署離隊45人好,111年了"},{"start":21256.084,"end":21256.765,"text":"111年的時候只離18人112年開始30幾個113年變成40幾個為什麼會直線往上飆升"},{"start":21274.768,"end":21294.955,"text":"所以這不是一兩天的事情是很多人不斷的在離職啊所以你們從110年到112年從18個人變36個人的時候你們就應該要注意到這件事情了不是等人死了才說哎呀不好意思趕快做一個調查報告所以我最後問部長部長你會因為這件事情下台嗎我會我會負我該負的責任"},{"start":21302.97,"end":21303.871,"text":"我會負符合社會期待的責任"},{"start":21331.713,"end":21333.214,"text":"謝謝許委員、謝謝部長。繼續我們請麥玉珍委員質詢。謝謝主席。有請部長。部長好。"},{"start":21357.263,"end":21382.239,"text":"辛苦了哈對但是我們還是一樣就是繼續來去問你因為我們看到報告就是剛才我們習委員有問報告裡面說無法證明同人是親身與霸凌相關所以我們真的是這個剛才你也沒有明確的說他你一直在說他是有霸凌的行為但是"},{"start":21383.139,"end":21390.806,"text":"這個親身跟他無關感覺你沒有辦法是明確再去講這一塊但是我們覺得你很矛盾但是現在不只針對個案我們要求的要求的你要如何處理這個受害者如何處理對他比較公平還有我們對我們的家屬要如何交代還有我們全國的勞工"},{"start":21411.224,"end":21419.519,"text":"都在權力都在你的手上所以現在我們不是針對個案對面所有的同仁"},{"start":21420.56,"end":21446.408,"text":"都心驚驚心慌慌對不對因為你現在這樣的署長你部長你都一直在回答都沒有明確也沒有解決的方案所以我們希望你要表態你如何加嚴管理你有什麼策略或者未來你怎麼樣去加嚴才不會大家問你有沒有要負責下台"},{"start":21447.088,"end":21457.523,"text":"你要一從發生到現在你一定要有一個作為吧對不對才讓我們全國的大眾認同說你真的去處理有嗎我會做"},{"start":21463.871,"end":21466.132,"text":"你會做,你會做不是用講的啊用講的講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講"},{"start":21493.108,"end":21517.815,"text":"這個部分要求還有第二個我們分署內的工作量就是超過大家的負荷所以大家就是很多人的離職剛才有都問了這個部分我們就不多來去講但是臺電經理推打小職員還有女警留場等的連接發生這些也是跟勞動部有關是不是"},{"start":21520.716,"end":21542.173,"text":"這樣子的話是否說我們在反映就是勞動部缺雜有效的防範機制也是為了掩蓋這個真相所以我們覺得你用設立一個匿名的調查但是暴徵說裡面還要用私人的信箱這樣子叫匿名嗎?"},{"start":21543.823,"end":21560.97,"text":"所以變成是你要跟大家說要有調查所以大家有沒有被霸凌或有其他的調查你要去解決這個問題你要調查但叫大家匿名又叫大家寫私人的信箱這樣叫做匿名問卷嗎這樣子你覺得是說誰敢去寫這樣子的一個問卷"},{"start":21572.125,"end":21575.006,"text":"所以這個部分我們希望我們要部長要做就要做實的啦不要被人騙這樣啦對大家就不好啦因為大家你要對內對外都要去真正的要有實作才對我們才覺得我們勞動部是真的是我們勞工的信任還有把關"},{"start":21597.598,"end":21612.77,"text":"還有第二個給我一分鐘的時間因為我想要問部長我們目前的移工在臺灣除了解決切工以外因為現在我們移工來臺灣他們解決的什麼行業的切工最多什麼行業移工來臺灣製造業還有呢"},{"start":21630.425,"end":21637.328,"text":"所以說為什麼說解決台灣的缺工?還為什麼我們台灣還有那麼多人失業呢?對不對?如果你台灣有那麼多人失業,你為什麼還要引進那麼多移工呢?所以移工進來是害了台灣還是幫助了台灣?"},{"start":21650.896,"end":21655.099,"text":"委員移工進來當然是對台灣有幫助的對啊 所以說我要跟你說跟全國說移工進來是對台灣有幫助的但是呢你覺得他對台灣有幫助但是你覺得他的生活還有他的工作環境還有居住環境你覺得合理嗎合法嗎"},{"start":21673.758,"end":21685.103,"text":"這是應該要確實移工的生活環境本來就是我們一直致力在改善的致力改善要有確定的改善我們移工每個要進來中介費還有每個服務費他們都在繳我們中小企業每一個月都要繳給我們勞動部的就業安定基金所以呢他們雙方都有繳服務分跟保護費啦但是我們勞動部給他們這樣子的工作環境"},{"start":21703.59,"end":21709.796,"text":"所以他們要不要逃跑要不要離開這個工作崗位如果是你留在這邊工作你要離開嗎所以這個就是我們勞動部不只沒辦法解決我們在地我們的國民的勞工還沒辦法解決外籍勞工所以兩個勞工的"},{"start":21723.328,"end":21733.217,"text":"在我們台灣都需要你多多關心多多去協助不是用說改善或者是討論這個原因對我們來說都是敷衍而已啦希望你要提出真正的規劃讓我們看到你的誠意也真的解決問題所以我們希望是你要解決問題"},{"start":21745.887,"end":21773.006,"text":"用靠的解決不了但是我們要用真正的處理方式因為現在已經發生還沒有發生還沒有新聞知道是大家不知道發生但是你早就知道發生了所以問題解決你應該早就要有策略了不是到我們委員會問你的時候一問三不知沒有任何的作業沒有任何的規劃這個是我們看到的就是對你的失望"},{"start":21774.766,"end":21785.93,"text":"希望你就是這兩個要提出具體的規劃要給我們謝謝謝謝麥委員、謝謝部長接續我們請伍麗華委員質詢謝謝主席主席我4分鐘1分鐘問勞動部3分鐘問警政署、考試院先請勞動部"},{"start":21804.321,"end":21831.293,"text":"是 謝謝部長好 您辛苦了 針對今天安排的專報 職場霸凌事件我從早上聽到現在 不論是質詢 或者是詢答的內容 或者是情緒看起來都大同小異 那部長我只想問 我就想問"},{"start":21833.534,"end":21859.841,"text":"針對這個事件部長您的態度到底如何因為我們最想知道的是你要如何懲處啊您簡單回答是謝謝委員我想我已經決定懲處的態度齁那我想針對謝怡榮分署長我會對他記兩大過予以停止兩大過予以停止對然後我想"},{"start":21862.045,"end":21862.686,"text":"接下來我想要問警政署跟考試院"},{"start":21891.576,"end":21917.81,"text":"我想要問關於警察人力其實我過去質詢過很多次我們就看這10年其實不管如何這10年來全國警察的人數總計其實是一直逐年增加但是我們原住民的警察人員的人數是逐年的下降那麼現在我們都在講文化敏感度文化敏感度"},{"start":21918.63,"end":21938.856,"text":"做長照也一樣其實在地的教師、醫事人力包括警察其實我們都非常的在乎所謂的文化敏感度那麼在我們的原鄉地區現在還不僅僅是警力過少現在在原鄉很不容易看到原住民級的警察了"},{"start":21939.955,"end":21956.084,"text":"所以現在我們地大人稀加上現在的詐騙這麼猖獗槍支毒品打架姿勢等等等其實我們真的很需要所謂的原住民級的警察人力來服務原鄉"},{"start":21957.105,"end":21982.091,"text":"偏偏2021年憲法法庭大法官釋智棣提到不能警察過牢所以警政署在警力不足的狀況下你們想到的因應的措施就是聯合服刑引起原鄉很大的恐慌為什麼因為地大人稀馬夜間突然之間看到派出所沒有燈光了以為派出所要被裁撤了"},{"start":21982.731,"end":22011.375,"text":"所以當時我也發文給你們警政署我提到說除了短期去調撥人力之外長期應該要提高我們警專、警大、原民學生的比例而且我要求能夠做一個外軌增加原住民行政警察很好其實呢我看到這幾年確實不論警大或者警專確實我們的原民生的比率是逐年在增加另外"},{"start":22011.975,"end":22037.403,"text":"憲法法庭也提到關於我們去綁身高這件事情是不對的所以內政部長也已經說了未來警消考試會取消身高限制這對原住民是福音啊好那我要講的是外鬼很好其實我質詢之後你們曾經在111年你們有行文給考選部說同意在一般警察特考要徵涉原住民刑責類別"},{"start":22039.224,"end":22051.631,"text":"我也很高興考選部呢終於也回文但是他們也沒反對他們說什麼呢要在原名特考四等考試來增設行政警察人員類科你們都沒有反對但是你們講的不一樣那考選部是說因為"},{"start":22058.254,"end":22076.258,"text":"按照新增類科處理要點不能在同一個考試中新增同樣職務的類科因為他們覺得說行政警察或原住民行政警察其實是同樣的職系好那我覺得警政署你們也很為難因為你們說你們的警察人員人事條例的施行細則提到"},{"start":22079.399,"end":22091.271,"text":"這邊要談的是高考、普考、警察人員考試所以你們覺得應該要從警察特考來增設好,重點我都沒有意見我都沒有意見現在我就想問考試院"},{"start":22093.038,"end":22109.137,"text":"你們一直都說會尊重用人機關就是警政署那你們都沒有關係你是不是可以就你的意見什麼叫做新增直系要怎麼寫你提供你的修正意見嘛考試院的意見如何"},{"start":22109.701,"end":22110.301,"text":"接下來我們請洪孟楷委員質詢"},{"start":22145.851,"end":22147.92,"text":"好 主席麻煩請我們何部長"},{"start":22154.957,"end":22177.117,"text":"部長今天整天大家都關心這一次在發生在勞動部分署的這個大齡事件或是同人輕生啊我想先請教一下為什麼我們現在看到好像是擠牙膏式的又說這一個分署長要降級又說他要停職到底你們現在這個懲戒"},{"start":22177.917,"end":22196.545,"text":"是依照外界判斷還是依照你們控管所以才會一段一段的出來是這樣嗎我想應該不是吧剛休息五分鐘是不是您在外面有接到電話沒有所以那是我的決定"},{"start":22198.429,"end":22226.497,"text":"你的態度因為我的考機會也會開會所以這只是我的態度而已我必須讓考機會決定可是我有我的態度這樣子你有你的態度那現在大家也在講是說難道就這樣子就了事了嗎部長的部分勒您自己有沒有政治責任認不認為這一件事情應該要有政務官要來下台負責我有政治責任吶你的政治責任是什麼"},{"start":22227.062,"end":22231.445,"text":"我可以離開啊我可以離開所以你已經有跟院長請辭了嗎你已經有跟院長請辭了嗎因為現在外傳是你跟院長請辭但是現在說是要慰留你啊"},{"start":22246.438,"end":22270.918,"text":"沒有這樣子的東西我根本還沒有跟院長有任何的聯繫沒有聯繫那也沒有來自院長院方的壓力或是院方的關心沒有沒有沒有但是你說你可以離開這就是我做符合社會期待的責任我負起這個責任所以跟委員您報告我可以離開沒有問題"},{"start":22272.139,"end":22289.81,"text":"好所以就是等這段事情因為你說你禮拜五會帶這位這位前分署長一起出面那後續國人也要看你負責的態度你要用怎麼樣的一個情形負責嗎但是本席現在要講來我們先看第一頁簡報這到目前為止的官方網站非常諷刺"},{"start":22298.539,"end":22323.904,"text":"熱誠、創新、感動人盡其材、財盡其用結果讓一位同仁離開再來剛剛在我們勞動部的門牌上面被貼了一個便利貼我是公務員我想好好活著部長你看到這樣子的一個便利貼有什麼感想對不起對不起誰"},{"start":22327.68,"end":22356.742,"text":"當然對不起我們這廣大的機關裡面所有的公務員廣大機關的公務員莫名的壓力被籠罩著然後應該是勞工朋友的保護傘勞工朋友的守護者的勞動部竟然發生了這樣霸凌的事件竟然發生了同仁離開的事件然後被人家寫說我是公務員我想好好活著什麼時候我們中華民國公務同仁那麼卑微到"},{"start":22357.642,"end":22365.167,"text":"我做一份工作到最後我居然是說我要拜託勞動部拜託長官讓我好好活著部長"},{"start":22370.806,"end":22395.341,"text":"還是要細究一下這個事件因為本時也覺得很遺憾我們在國會改革完之後我們沒有辦法有這個調查小組所以很多事情我們是看你們的報告出來很多的疑點或說很多的一個案件的狀況我們還是覺得說物理看花所以幾個部分我來直接就教你來請下一頁這個是在網路上有想有匿名的"},{"start":22396.699,"end":22424.42,"text":"報料但是這一個賬號也被很多人講到他講的應該就是我們同一個單位的工作同仁他其中特別講到11月1號禮拜五我們這一位親身離開公務員他被長官推薦、被長官大罵長官要求11月4號禮拜一務必交件我想請教一下我們的調查小組有沒有查出來這個長官是誰這件事情屬不屬實"},{"start":22426.206,"end":22428.69,"text":"他會不會就是壓垮最後一根稻草我們的調查小組有去調查然後勒"},{"start":22434.512,"end":22458.097,"text":"這長官是誰根據我掌握的資料11月1號禮拜五跟他開會的是副分署長是副分署長要求他11月4號要交接所以這個長官是副分署長我不知道這我沒有這我那有沒有大罵有沒有被推薦有沒有大罵這件事件我們沒有掌這個沒有調查沒有得出有沒有大罵的問題部長怎麼會沒有得出有沒有大罵的問題"},{"start":22462.874,"end":22487.079,"text":"這個才可能會是關鍵我們今天不管是分署長不管是副分署長好即便你們講是說是副分署長他有沒有可能會是讓這個同仁親身最後的一個狀況在詢問副分署長的時候他有沒有承認他11月1號對當事人大罵嗎他有這樣的行為嗎他沒有講啊可是當天跟他開會的就是他那位長官就是他"},{"start":22490.539,"end":22511.14,"text":"當天跟這一位同仁開會的11月1號開會好那再來11月3號而且謝芬署長當天11月1號是請假的我們都知道他請假但不能是說他請假就變成說他沒有責任11月3號晚上家人要到辦公室找這一位同仁被保全阻擋沒有辦法進辦公室有沒有這個情況"},{"start":22513.277,"end":22514.157,"text":"我再確認一下就是大概50幾分的時候"},{"start":22543.768,"end":22565.441,"text":"就是11月4號嘛等於是禮拜天已經過到禮拜一也許家人已經聯絡不上他想要來了解因為知道說這一個同仁很盡責的到辦公室加班結果到了現場一樓還被保全阻擋沒有辦法進辦公室那他沒有表達他沒有在現場表達他是他的家人"},{"start":22566.845,"end":22581.775,"text":"我相信應該有那如果說保全不讓他上去可能因為整個機關的保全或說安危那保全有沒有最基本的合理的懷疑至少說好你在這邊看一下你沒有辦法進去但我幫你去辦公室看看委員那不是勞動部的保全那是中央聯合辦公大樓他們集體請的保全當然我們勞動部有疏失就是說"},{"start":22595.94,"end":22616.686,"text":"這個保全被阻擋那我們沒有及時去跟家屬來聯繫因為當時他沒有通報他們也沒有通報我們好來來來一個一個釐清啊你現在不要不要覺得說你們很委屈啊說實在發生在勞動部我只是請教一下這一個親生如果說依照現在檢察官判斷的話他什麼時候親生"},{"start":22622.525,"end":22635.639,"text":"家人12禮拜天的晚上禮拜一的清晨來的時候會不會有可能是可以救得到他的如果說讓他看到家人會不會他可能就不會走上這一條不歸路"},{"start":22639.414,"end":22664.392,"text":"因為是早上11月4號早上7點半有同仁上班的時候才發覺說他已經離開了嘛那換言之你們的記錄到現在你們還講不清楚也不知道檢察官到底是確認說他什麼時候離開是不是我們辦公室裡面有沒有相關的錄影錄影設備也沒有有還是沒有辦公區有沒有相關錄影設備"},{"start":22669.335,"end":22675.44,"text":"所以換言之你們也沒有辦法掌握到底裡面的情況所以"},{"start":22677.806,"end":22699.238,"text":"這會不會又是一個可能可以挽回他但到最後沒有辦法的原因的一個機會點其實這件事情我們要講的是說這個同仁有沒有發出求救訊號我覺得有欸從今年的2月就有上百封的陳情書不管說現在講是說有給部長有給相關單位有給民意代表"},{"start":22701.681,"end":22727.385,"text":"那結果到11月1號又被大罵他可能變成是壓垮最後一根稻草結果11月3號的晚上家人想要去找他又沒有不得其門而入所以11月4號就有憾事發生來再來我時間真的有限但是我覺得這個事情不能這樣子私了請教有沒有這件事情沒有沒有有沒有掉電梯裡面的影像攝影像沒有來下一張"},{"start":22731.581,"end":22751.756,"text":"他講是說11月4號早上高層指示貨梯不能用所以不能用單架運送死者的遺體那後來電梯不夠大所以只能用單架把它整理上來變成是坐姿的情況離開而且還不准上令蓋上白布"},{"start":22752.301,"end":22775.327,"text":"沒有這樣子的事部長說沒有來有沒有影像有沒有去看當天的電梯的影像不是委員有沒有去看當天的電梯影像沒有所謂高層下令沒有有沒有去看當天的電梯影像不是當天的電梯影像交出來不是因為現在很多的同仁都講是說那天被要求不能蓋上白布"},{"start":22776.485,"end":22781.566,"text":"有提醒有走廊的影像能不能調出當天走廊的影像為什麼沒有調到也不見了"},{"start":22811.89,"end":22824.682,"text":"好來來來來部長給你們那麼兩三個禮拜時間的調查小組去掉了結果你剛剛跟我講沒有先撇清沒有然後來現在告訴我們說其實根本還沒有看到那時候影像那你有什麼底氣說沒有"},{"start":22826.889,"end":22827.709,"text":"來最後抱歉委員"},{"start":22855.595,"end":22878.322,"text":"我先講啦你最後你們今天的報告是直接督導的北分署副分署長跟秘書室主任因為他直接督導所以他一併送考記會可是你們之前怎麼寫來下一頁謝分署長管理雖非同仁離開的直接原因你們直接開宗明義幫謝分署長開脫啊然後現在你們把這個鍋甩給誰來下一頁"},{"start":22881.53,"end":22904.449,"text":"反而是甩軌直接督導資訊小組的北分署副分署長跟秘書室主任你這樣寫的狀況以我對你們公務機關的瞭解到最後這鍋是副分署長跟秘書室主任要背啊因為他是直接督導啊當然你剛剛講是說如果當天11月1號破口大罵的是副分署長的話我也認為他有非常嚴重的責任"},{"start":22906.084,"end":22906.104,"text":"委員"},{"start":22937.89,"end":22962.175,"text":"還有其他委員要詢問但是我剛問的這些問題都是你這一此時此刻你們還回答不清的都是你們的調查報告裡面沒有寫清楚的都是我們看完調查報告之後我們還有產生更多懷疑的禮拜五你們還會再出面我希望禮拜五的時候你們可以把我剛剛講的這些疑點全部都交代清楚不要再有任何遮掩"},{"start":22962.816,"end":22984.658,"text":"我們其實只有10天的時間在做這個調查報告這是非常非常非常急迫當然當然委員你沒有辦法自圓其說這代表就是說你的時間像講出來的調查報告就是沒有辦法讓悠悠之口服眾這才是現在的問題"},{"start":22988.516,"end":22991.778,"text":"好 謝謝洪委員 謝謝部長 接續我們請李燕秀委員質詢部長喝口水來 我繼續請部長部長"},{"start":23017.281,"end":23040.592,"text":"二、三十年前你是站在街頭幫勞工爭取權益的憤青今天發生這個事情你身為一千兩百萬勞工照顧捍衛勞工權益的大家長五十四萬公教人員都在看你怎麼處理這個事情"},{"start":23042.762,"end":23055.892,"text":"本席今天其實這件事情發生在其他國家勞動部就是應該要下台我覺得我們對你的要求並不為過你剛才講說你只有10天的時間勞動部的同仁陳情這些事情應該不只10天他有很長的時間這幾天今天整天質詢下來我對於勞動部內控的機制"},{"start":23072.428,"end":23081.471,"text":"預警的機制對不對因為他不是只有最近這10天才發生他應該要有一個預警的機制顯然的預警的機制顯然的預警的機制也完全沒有了然後我看到你們勞動部完全是息事寧人的態度從昨天開的記者會開完之後所有國人媒體"},{"start":23100.184,"end":23123.624,"text":"網路全部都炸鍋炸開了看到的是你們草菅人命我順便請一下消防署的同仁一起上來大家的結論都是勞動部變成霸凌的特區勞工的地獄網路大家都留這八個字送給你所以你覺得我請你下台為過嗎?不為過"},{"start":23125.629,"end":23136.14,"text":"因為在其他國家就是如此你想想30年前的你你站在街頭幫勞工爭取錢益你是憤青的時候你怎麼去看這個勞動部部長"},{"start":23138.39,"end":23165.431,"text":"你預警的機制在哪裡你說你10天不夠調查這件事情多少勞動部的同仁寫信在外面陳情你居然都不知道不管他是過去許部長任用的人選分署長這都是你的下屬可見你的管理機制是出了問題好我再請問一下剛才洪孟凱委員問的當天我請了消防署回應我警政署跟消防署回應我當天"},{"start":23168.663,"end":23191.559,"text":"分署要求不能蓋白布並且是用坐輪椅的方式下台這件事情是怎麼回事我請消防署不是在嗎來你回應我副署長來報告委員那天的處置情形是怎麼樣報告委員當天是新北市那個去參與的救護那你知不知道你今天來到這邊你什麼都不知道你來這邊做什麼你不知道嗎當天是什麼狀況"},{"start":23195.885,"end":23207.294,"text":"報告委員當時是那個新北市消防局去執行的分隊去執行的那你是要當時的狀況是怎麼樣嗎報告委員我不清楚那你來這邊做什麼你們今天來這邊做什麼越問越不清楚這就出現國外調查的重要性嘛"},{"start":23215.447,"end":23218.369,"text":"什麼都不知道你們來幹還是警政署可以回應我來誰可以回答報告委員因為這個整個調查小組是由人事處來擔任幕僚那剛才又說沒有影像現在消防署來也不能告訴我答案當天在現場我們既沒有影像消防署那一天"},{"start":23236.141,"end":23264.795,"text":"怎麼把人帶下來的對跟委員報告當天的現場我在這邊跟您報告就是當天的時候我們人事主任把他解下來之後那馬上就詢問他們的他的家屬那他的家屬說要急救要急救所以我們把那個急救人員來的時候你問他家屬說要急救當天還有時間問他家屬要急救要急救所以下去的時候他是帶著氧氣罩"},{"start":23266.727,"end":23268.708,"text":"這整件事情他到底當時有沒有寫報告"},{"start":23296.294,"end":23304.119,"text":"你是指2月的約談嗎?2月20號王安本的約談我們部裡沒有任何記錄啊你說寫報告有沒有約談這件事情我只是聽說"},{"start":23305.563,"end":23334.585,"text":"那還是第二個我認為整件事情在調查過程當中你都是聽說不是委員我有我現在已經要重新調查這個案了我早上有回答王玉敏委員的詢問如果都要發生事形憾事你現在才你才知道我覺得你的預警機制真的有問題好我第三個問題我還要突顯另外一個問題你知道一般的離職率齁大概多少是合理的嗎企業界多少的離職率是合理的嗎"},{"start":23335.706,"end":23347.291,"text":"好我告訴你答案因為我今天我不想這樣別人寫大概兩層是合理的你知道我們北分署扣掉工友跟技工我們的緣合數是132人扣掉所謂工友技工我們有124人你知道我們離職率多少嗎我們有81個人離職這個分署裡面有6乘5的離職率"},{"start":23357.696,"end":23367.466,"text":"這麼高的一個離職率在一個單位裡面這個單位如果發生了什麼事你會不知道我的辦公室同仁如果百分之五、六十都離職代表我這個老闆有問題你什麼都不知道欸北分署原來編制是132人扣掉工有技工駕駛8個人有124個人兩年之內離職率有81個人"},{"start":23384.413,"end":23401.429,"text":"6乘5的離職率這是我要凸顯你的預警機制你的息事寧人你的草菅人命所以部長我不佔別人時間我覺得請你下台只是剛剛好而已不要讓勞動部變成勞工地域特權地區謝謝李委員謝謝部長繼續我們請黃伯昌委員質詢"},{"start":23420.366,"end":23440.78,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩有請部長部長好,我想這份調查報告公布到現在,您從早上備詢到現在,我覺得你應該可以很清楚地感受到"},{"start":23441.86,"end":23469.04,"text":"整個社會其實不僅僅是外環委員會這麼多委員來執行整個社會對這份調查報告是憤怒的是有沒有重啟調查的必要我會重啟調查什麼時候重啟調查當然馬上就重啟調查馬上就重啟調查我希望喔重啟調查了以後真的能夠還原事件的真相因為有太多的疑問到現在"},{"start":23471.735,"end":23497.817,"text":"對於被害人對於整個社會都沒有一個清楚的交代因為我看完這份報告了以後我腦海裡面顯現了第一個問題這份報告說這個長官涉及職場霸凌情節重大但是在前面他就說這位不幸往生的同仁他沒有遭受到長官霸凌的情勢"},{"start":23499.417,"end":23526.078,"text":"我看完了這份報告以後我不斷在思考調查小組做出來的調查結果這個分署長有霸凌但是這個往生的人沒有被霸凌所有被霸凌的人沒有人往生剛好是那個往生的人沒有被霸凌部長這個報告這樣的結論您能接受嗎"},{"start":23526.892,"end":23550.254,"text":"委員這個部分我可以跟您解釋好嗎就是其實是報告裡面沒有寫清楚為什麼就是說在謝分署長跟那個離開的同仁之間還隔著兩個主管就是傅分署長所以你的意思是說有其他的主管涉及霸凌嗎也不可能因為這個霸凌的程序是你說得非常的好也不可能這個就是我直接跟你講嘛"},{"start":23551.84,"end":23568.055,"text":"當你們已經認定出來這個分署長有霸凌的事實但大家看到你們認定的結果是這位不幸往生的同仁沒有被霸凌這是一個完全矛盾完全衝突調查報告的結論部長您同意嗎"},{"start":23570.501,"end":23598.622,"text":"公務員報告因為這主要是外部專家他們在基於事實而去做的陳述那他們只就他們眼看到的、聽到的事實做他只說無法證實啦所以嘛所以這邊調查報告社會才會憤怒嘛所以你今天才會在這邊承認有重啟調查的必要嘛是嗎是好來除了不幸往生的事件以外喔"},{"start":23600.492,"end":23612.927,"text":"我其他得到的檢舉我們一樣樣來他有沒有濫用公帑、宴請友人這個部分我瞭解過了應該是指一個今年6月有我們鄭豐處長在現場嗎是鄭豐處長來回答好嗎"},{"start":23617.129,"end":23643.058,"text":"這個案子是東穎公所跟他們一個東永協會在5月份5月20號去拜訪北分署那北分因為這一個協會是北分署呢過去一直在埔島的多元就業的那個協會所以呢那個謝芬組長基於公宜呢那就在當天晚上有宴請花了多少錢總共在餐費部分大概是四萬兩千塊四萬兩千塊是"},{"start":23645.639,"end":23669.456,"text":"從哪一個會計科目向下支出?那個會計科目我可能要再瞭解一個禮拜之內喔?把這件事情的原委寫清楚喔?我們這個會期在審查預算嘛勞動部預算很多啊很有錢啊一個分署長請出去吃飯一頓就吃掉4萬多塊啊"},{"start":23672.113,"end":23673.697,"text":"有沒有在辦公室裡面裝軌道燈導致電費增加?"},{"start":23681.568,"end":23702.202,"text":"這部分因為我們2月份的那一個所謂檢舉的書我們並沒有收到那我們在這個月11號看到那個議員有報導以後我們已經在立案調查了那所以這部分也是在我們調查的項目之內需要多久我們大概兩個禮拜好兩個禮拜來接下來繼續請部長他上任以後"},{"start":23708.372,"end":23718.857,"text":"爛花公堂送禮這件事情有沒有掌握?我們有看到資料你有看到資料嗎?這樣的行為你覺得適不適當?請問鄭鋒處長這個也是在我們調查的範圍一樣兩個禮拜嘛對這都是就是那一份的檢舉書裡面我們通通會調查來!裡面禮物有國會統籌運用統籌運用到哪裡知不知道?"},{"start":23737.947,"end":23764.763,"text":"一樣兩個禮拜調查報告寫清楚這個都是在我們調查範圍內我一樣一樣問嘛我怕你調查報告到時候寫出來跟這份報告一樣嘛避重就輕嘛破綻百出嘛大家為什麼憤怒所以我一點一點跟你們講啊今天沒有答案沒有關係啊我今後兩個禮拜以後的調查報告啊再往下看公帑買的禮盒他自己可以留著喔"},{"start":23769.531,"end":23772.212,"text":"我現在不是在討論事實是在討論規範規範需要調查喔"},{"start":23800.023,"end":23815.333,"text":"他所謂公帑買的禮盒是他所謂送自己人是什麼因為不是啦分署長室自己留著這是你們我鎖是你們回給我的資料嘛他可以自己留著喔可以嗎他那個如果是用公帑買的那就是公務啦"},{"start":23823.223,"end":23825.606,"text":"我當初我跟你講啦我所有所知都調出來了啦送給誰我要他一樣一樣列清楚啦"},{"start":23841.448,"end":23854.454,"text":"這個就是他列不清楚的阿直接講說分署長自己留著阿一樣喔兩個禮拜之內報告所以我們會留寫他的流向到什麼地方去事情還沒有結束阿備用125份現在在哪裡一樣兩個禮拜之內寫清楚是堆在倉庫裡還是拿去隨便亂扒"},{"start":23866.238,"end":23885.364,"text":"東西在哪裡我看我們的勞動部很有錢啊有錢到這個程度啊分署長上來不僅官威很大錢也很會亂花拿公帑找設計師買禮物做自己的公關可以這樣幹喔這是這個分署長才幹的還是這是整個勞動部的文化來請部長"},{"start":23895.747,"end":23914.992,"text":"這絕對不是勞動部的文絕對不是勞動部的文化嘛回去瞭解一下不要再有第二種這種長官出現了更可惡的事情是你知不知道他買禮品的錢從哪裡來的知不知道部長知道嗎請委員那個你們喔"},{"start":23918.959,"end":23937.047,"text":"就是署裡面的同仁啊我已經跟你們所知了你們就要知道我一定會問這個問題就要幫部長準備好要不然部長站在上面也很辛苦他一定不知道嘛他為什麼會不知道因為匪夷所思嘛我為什麼說匪夷所思來"},{"start":23940.236,"end":23940.476,"text":"怎麼核銷的?"},{"start":23970.902,"end":23998.553,"text":"可以嗎?我想應該是不行你覺得應該不行嗎?後面還有更誇張的社群媒體標案可以拿社群媒體標案的錢因為太多啦!花不完啦!多到花不完還雲芝過來啊!買禮物啊!部長你覺得這個適合嗎?我想應該也是不適合也是不適合嘛更誇張的是促進銀髮就業青年就業專案也可以拿來送禮"},{"start":24000.302,"end":24014.581,"text":"我相信啊!所有的立法委員在審預算的時候都不知道啊!勞動部跟立法院要預算是要促進營法就業、要青年就業計畫結果搞了半天拿來送禮喔!錢可以這樣花嗎?請教部長!"},{"start":24018.615,"end":24019.836,"text":"要透過送旅盒來做廣宣喔"},{"start":24034.366,"end":24037.106,"text":"來,我們再往下看就業保險基金可以拿來送禮嗎?救保基金是拿來送禮的嗎?"},{"start":24069.802,"end":24094.058,"text":"這個就是救保基金裡面的預算了113年來送端午節43萬我再往下看就業安定基金可以拿來送禮嗎?一樣中秋節38萬我看完了以後啊那個請一下部長好嗎?請一下部長這個會期啊"},{"start":24097.301,"end":24118.713,"text":"要處理預算當我們看到錢這樣花的時候我相信所有的立法委員心裡在問一個問題我們當初通過這個預算的時候是要給這位分署長拿來買禮物做關係嗎我相信沒有立委會同意"},{"start":24120.413,"end":24135.3,"text":"這些內容是不是可以承諾一併兩個禮拜之內的調查報告要寫清楚可以嗎?該移送檢調的就移送檢調這已經不是只有單純失職的問題了啦該移送檢調的移送檢調希望下一次兩個禮拜兩個禮拜以後出來的報告能夠回應社會這些問題"},{"start":24149.158,"end":24166.655,"text":"部長可以嗎?好好謝謝黃委員黃國昌委員要求的兩個禮拜報告請要給黨團還有給本委員會要給報告那結束我們請葉元之委員質詢麻煩請勞動部長謝謝"},{"start":24184.262,"end":24205.707,"text":"部長昨天你開記者會告訴大家說這個謝宜龍到底要怎麼處理要送考機會來斷定嘛你不能夠直接停職免職嘛但是今天你說你要推他兩大過停職之後剛剛已經有消息傳出來說他要辭職了然後要去美國陪小孩請問有這件事嗎有這件事嗎我剛剛才看到你剛剛才看到所以他請辭是跟誰請辭"},{"start":24213.823,"end":24241.878,"text":"是跟誰請示?組長知道這個事嗎?還沒有這個消息所以並沒有收到辭呈我想要問部長其實這個事件大家社會很震驚很關心也很痛心大家其實除了看謝宜榮他的所作所為之外也在看勞動部第一時間出於這個事情的態度我感覺昨天勞動部第一時間就是想要息事寧人啊"},{"start":24242.898,"end":24243.218,"text":"我想透過誠誠的傳達"},{"start":24261.345,"end":24283.05,"text":"有沒有關係嗎?只有直接關係?你現在又覺得有直接關係了?好第二個就是有所以昨天說沒有直接關係今天又說有直接關係部長你昨天說你們的調查報告是偶心力血之作今天你說要重啟調查我就問請問一下如果是偶心力血之作為什麼今天又要重啟調查?為什麼?"},{"start":24284.94,"end":24308.343,"text":"因為委員會要求是委員會要求還是你也覺得那個報告不是偶心力血之作我也同意你也同意那為什麼昨天第一時間你說是偶心力血之作為什麼你是自己這樣認為還是你受到調查委員甚至於幾位次長的蒙蔽因為那真的是外部專家花了很多時間那如果是這樣子的話為什麼你要重啟調查那就尊重啊"},{"start":24310.726,"end":24335.221,"text":"因為委員會要求我必須尊重委員會所以部長你還是認為那個是偶心力血之作所以調查出來可能也是差不多是這個意思?絕對不是所以你也覺得不是偶心力血之作再來我想請教一下目的良善找到很多委員問你目的良善這幾個字是因為專家基於平衡用出來用語這是你講的嘛對不對?對啦"},{"start":24338.715,"end":24359.452,"text":"是目的良善你們說為什麼要寫目的良善這四個字是因為專家基於平衡是委員所謂基於平衡是指說當然在專業的他們的論述他們的陳述上面我非常覺得奇怪的是為什麼要這種事情要基於平衡啊調查報告就是把事實呈現嘛"},{"start":24360.313,"end":24376.543,"text":"根本要基於平衡這個平衡就是事實也是事實也是基於事實那你就基於事實嘛是啊所以目的良善就是你到現在還認為說這個分署長他的霸凌行為是基於事實的目的良善是這個意思嗎那你同意嗎你同意嗎那是外部專家的認知我得尊重你尊重那你同意嗎"},{"start":24384.005,"end":24411.665,"text":"你同意嗎當然我沒有我也不認同這樣子你不認同嘛因為這事情害你們勞動被罵爆了嘛網友都說目的良善這四個字為所有企業重新的定義嘛只要目的良善就可以大聲講話就可以隨便罵人就不叫霸凌啊再來昨天你說必須要通過考機會才能夠對他作出處分你沒有直接權利為什麼今天你又有權利了為什麼"},{"start":24412.861,"end":24439.335,"text":"我還是一樣要開考機會處理阿那你怎麼可以直接講說就要給他停職勒這是我的態度你的態度所以你的態度有可能跟考機會不一樣是不是一樣阿一樣應該是會一樣的應該是會一樣就代表你就可以那就是你就可以決定了嘛我講那麼多其實那還是必須尊重考機會的程序所以有可能不一樣有可能不一樣不會不一樣不會不一樣就是你就可以決那你就可以決定了嘛"},{"start":24439.975,"end":24450.759,"text":"所以昨天第一時間這是兩件事委員沒有委員部長如果說你本來就可以決定而且結果不一樣你昨天第一時間你就可以表明你的態度你要給他記兩大過停職你昨天為什麼沒有為什麼要讓火燒一天之後今天還說要給他停職為什麼第一時間因為我改變我的思考啊不跟大家講清楚你得思考因為我改變我的思考啊所以部長部長"},{"start":24464.588,"end":24485.936,"text":"我只要跟你講 謝毅龍這個人有問題我相信經過大家的討論都不用再講了但大家現在要看的是勞動部的態度勞動部我第一時間是想息事寧人要怎麼處分考機會決定我不能講或者是說這是噁心力血報告或者是目的良善去講這些讓大家覺得你在包庇他的話大家會對勞動部失望啊"},{"start":24486.716,"end":24508.152,"text":"我沒有包庇他你知道網友現在已經把這個事件去跟洪仲秋事件做連結了為什麼第一個都是跟霸凌有關第二個都是官僚主義在包庇這是大家現在對勞動部的感覺啦委員我做調查報告就是希望不包庇不包庇就不包庇結果做出來這樣報告大家都不滿意還有再來請教一下"},{"start":24509.878,"end":24532.195,"text":"如果你要重新調查會調查的話你還會找許傳聖、黃琳娜、吳雅惠這三個人來調查嗎?黃琳娜跟吳雅惠都不是調查小組成員那他們三個是?只有許傳聖是召集人那召集人然後那另外兩位勒?那另外兩位他們在調查的過程當中扮演的角色是什麼?他沒有角色完全沒角色?是啊"},{"start":24533.619,"end":24559.899,"text":"好所以就不會找他們嗎當然那就回答就好啦你在嗆我幹嘛對不起奇怪我問你問題就回答就好你現在來吵架是不是對不起這是有做錯事嗎對不起這是網路上的不實事那你就澄清啊那我現在問你你說不是那就不是啊就澄清啊謝謝委員那你罵我幹嘛謝謝委員那再來五一勞動節賴總統說民進黨一直是跟勞工站在一起的政黨賴總統講的"},{"start":24563.045,"end":24569.949,"text":"發生了這樣的一個不幸勞工事件還在勞動部發生請問一下賴總統要出來講話嗎你會建議他出來講話嗎賴總統說沒有這是我的錯你的錯所以跟賴總統無關可是你知道我自己承擔你知道當時洪仲秋事件的時候馬總統有出來講話這是我的錯我自己承擔你自己承擔所以你保護賴總統"},{"start":24590.042,"end":24614.727,"text":"這是可以看到一個總統的高度啦可以看到一個總統是否站在勞工這邊啦看到一個總統是否遇到一個舉國關注的一個這樣的不幸事件的態度我只問說部長基於你是勞工的主管最高主管機關你會建議賴總統出來像馬總統一樣出來跟大家講幾句話嗎你會建議嗎我自己承擔所以你會不建議"},{"start":24616.82,"end":24628.668,"text":"好部長請教一下前部長許銘春說他看了這個事件非常的遺憾但是他把原因歸咎於勞動部人員長期不足這樣講法您認同嗎"},{"start":24629.995,"end":24633.376,"text":"委員跟委員報告因為勞動部也是公務體制啊那所以呢"},{"start":24648.021,"end":24666.421,"text":"那是原總原總在決定原的不是勞動部可以決定的你是勞動部照道理來講你應該最站在勞工這邊結果你遇到這個問題兩手一攤說我們也沒辦法解決這個問題那連你們都不能保護你們自己的勞工的你怎麼祈求全台灣的企業會保護員工"},{"start":24667.302,"end":24695.536,"text":"事實上勞動部無法決定自己的原額有多少那你有去爭取嗎?你有為了你們自己的勞工捍衛嗎?權益捍衛嗎?不是現在的問題是說你是勞動部你一直宣導勞工權益很重要要所有企業重視勞工權益結果你們是勞動部你們沒辦法捍衛你們自己勞工權益這位不幸的這位不幸親生的這位當事人他加班剛剛我看許晓芹也有問啊為什麼他加班不用給加班費他還有沒有超時工作有沒有"},{"start":24696.288,"end":24697.288,"text":"委員是 這都我們的錯是 我們應該要檢討"},{"start":24727.355,"end":24733.761,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝葉委員 謝謝部長 接續我們請邱若驊委員質詢謝謝主席 主席請勞動部和部長"},{"start":24756.267,"end":24779.864,"text":"委員好部長好先和部長確認你們昨天開職場霸凌記者會的時候請問被指控涉嫌的霸凌的行為人你說他目前只是幕僚的職務沒有權利正確嗎我已經準備直接要讓他停職了準備直接要讓他停職了那我們看到本期在勞動力發展署職員輕生的那一天就有接到投訴我們可以看到這張截圖"},{"start":24783.783,"end":24812.997,"text":"知情人士跟本席反映說署長涉及職場霸凌署長在下班後還會用LINE問工作的問題只要錯過就是錯過問題就會被拿出來特別檢討那本席也跟勞動力發展署有所知你們的回文是職員一天平均的工作時數是8個小時上下班用刷卡的方式請問部長你們調查報告承認這名洩性的行為人半夜或早上5點都會用LINE詢問工作的事情這工作明顯就已經超過8個小時請問這份所知"},{"start":24813.777,"end":24832.531,"text":"一天工作8個小時是怎麼來的?是其他員工都不用上班還是公然對本席說謊?跟委員報告這個因為之前提供給委員這個齁這個是根據我們目前的刷卡的拆勤紀錄依照這個刷卡的拆勤紀錄去統計"},{"start":24833.956,"end":24852.352,"text":"依照他的刷卡,所以這份資料跟你們實際上,跟這位親身的職員,他的工作史是不符大?這個是因為是猜刑系統的刷卡記錄,但是實際上確實有同仁可能就是沒有在這個刷卡以外的時間,其實就實際上就已經到前那這邊問部長,部長你說他已經要調離了是不是?"},{"start":24858.577,"end":24883.367,"text":"你指哪位這位這位這位署長沒有就直接把他停職啊直接停職那原本是要把他調去哪裡啊那時候還沒有決定那時候還沒有決定那他這樣子罵人或咆哮他不管去到哪裡都還是有一樣的問題啊而且部長你也說他有就醫的需求那你怎麼會把他從另外一個地方再調調到另外一個單位呢你是想要製造新的問題嗎所以並沒有決定"},{"start":24886.297,"end":24914.587,"text":"所以你現在已經決定要把它停職了是嗎?對,現在的決定是要停職那我們再來看到那來跟本席陳情的人有特別提到這位自殺者非常善良,被逼上絕路的前一天他還在跟同事交接工作部長你知道嗎?我知道啊,通過調查小組的報告我才知道你才知道,那這已經不是一兩天的事了吧?"},{"start":24916.391,"end":24917.011,"text":"為什麼這位署長回到辦公室還有這個說法呢?"},{"start":24947.523,"end":24965.704,"text":"那是通靈那是他們當年當時在處理的時候藏儀社藏儀社的通靈阿姨給這個謝芬署長的說法啦你們有沒有就你們管理內部的機制還有這個智能就業服務系統本身制度的問題來做檢討啊"},{"start":24967.719,"end":24996.306,"text":"這就是我要求他們先把自己的人力的配置本身量能就已經不足了加上這工作也沒辦法完成我也沒辦法完成然後也沒有適當的求助管道然後再來是精神跟管理手段也有問題啊那當他們要向上反應的時候部長你是今天才知道啊人都已經被逼到手上絕路了這就是我要啟動調查我才瞭解竟然有這樣子的一個計畫然後是員工做不到的"},{"start":24996.986,"end":25024.642,"text":"而又要被要求這不小心拿出破例給給死者家屬一個交代還有全體國內一個交代好嗎?對,所以我把這個資訊標案都停了要求他們重新檢討是什麼檢討報告什麼時候會出來?啊?檢討報告委員,你是說資訊標案的重新檢討嗎?不是資訊標案,針對這一次沒有,我們的,你是指重啟調查的部分嗎?重啟調查,然後包括我們這個智能這個"},{"start":25028.083,"end":25028.363,"text":"謝謝請委員繼續我們請洪森漢委員質詢"},{"start":25076.434,"end":25103.442,"text":"謝謝主席,我請何部長部長我們今天在未來行政委員討論這個議題坦白說非常非常沉重我想先再問部長一次部長你覺得昨天勞動部公布的調查報告你對這調查報告的內容你滿意嗎我想我自己也不滿意"},{"start":25105.219,"end":25133.673,"text":"我想其實你應該知道其實這一個多星期以來我的辦公室非常非常關注這件事情其實我也好幾度提醒勞動部必須非常非常審慎處理這件事情是我必須坦白說當昨天我看到調查報告的時候我是非常非常的失望的但我的失望是一回事"},{"start":25135.253,"end":25148.054,"text":"但從昨天調查報告公布以後我接到更多的來自勞動部基層的陳情我最擔心的事情是我們勞動部的基層"},{"start":25150.454,"end":25174.949,"text":"對調查報告或對勞動部更失望我最擔心這件事情所以昨天在調查報告公布以後坦白說我是接到更多這樣子的訊息的不然我想請問如果勞動部去針對企業做勞檢的時候發現僱主要求勞工打假卡這有沒有違法?會不會開罰?"},{"start":25176.766,"end":25181.007,"text":"我們在現在有很多媒體報導的訊息裡面看到這一位親生的公務員說到他有被打被迫打假卡的狀況部長看到嗎平常先講如果就調查小組的調查他就打假卡的狀況"},{"start":25207.122,"end":25232.572,"text":"確實就是不尋常部長我要說的事情是從我從勞動部的這些公務人員來跟我們說的訊息裡面恐怕被迫打假卡的不是只有這位公務員而是北分署裡面已經在這一個分署長就任以來的這段時間裡面都是這樣做的"},{"start":25234.195,"end":25255.428,"text":"我要跟部長講我們收到的訊息是這樣子的署長也在這邊第一個謝芬署長很長時間在要求大家要大量的加班交付很重的工作但重點是他不讓同仁們報加班好所以當"},{"start":25261.465,"end":25289.127,"text":"公務員被要求大量加班但又不讓他報加班的時候最後的結果是什麼只有兩個一個要不就被迫打假卡第二個要不就是請調申請調職這會不會是我們有這麼多的北分署的公務員要求調職請調的原因我認為這件事情部長"},{"start":25291.565,"end":25312.151,"text":"應該要查明清楚所以我要說的事情是這恐怕不是只是對這一位親身的公務員的個案的問題如果這位謝芬署長他是在整個署的領導裡面都長期的要求大家用這種方式打假卡不然我要問"},{"start":25315.18,"end":25338.817,"text":"請問勞動部對於其他企業進行工時進行勞檢的時候要怎麼開罰謝謝委員提供這個訊息我真的也是第一次聽到部長這是很多這些基層來跟我們反映的事情所以為什麼我們要說為什麼大家覺得失望因為像這樣子的事件大家都沒有在這個調查報告裡面看到謝芬署長"},{"start":25343.498,"end":25348.282,"text":"對於屬下的要求不是只對這位親身的公務員啊是整個屬啊這是為什麼現在我們收到的訊息裡面接收到的爆料裡面有這麼多是來自於勞發署、北分署他們受不了部長所以我想請問所以接下來在你得知了這些新的狀況以後"},{"start":25370.168,"end":25399.414,"text":"你會怎麼對謝芬署長或者是該做的處置你會怎麼處置我已經謝芬署長會記兩大過停職然後我想蔡署長我會給我會記他一個大過調離主管職然後我們會移送司法移送司法對移送司法檢調以及公務人員懲戒委就是監察院不然我在這邊當然我知道今天下午的時候你有做了這樣子的宣誓"},{"start":25400.643,"end":25409.745,"text":"這是你說這是你的態度可是我這邊想要再跟部長說我認為我們需要在最快速度讓打夾卡的文化在勞動部消失按照我剛才說的我想我們會來徹查我們所有的主管如果勞動部都變成是帶頭要求打夾卡的話那我們怎麼勞檢啊我們真的沒有辦法勞檢啊"},{"start":25429.322,"end":25451.438,"text":"署長你知不知道這件事情在北分署裡面這麼多的同仁被要求大量加班又被要求不能報加班最後只能打假卡署長報告委員那個就是上班的時間跟他的刷卡確實有不一致這個是確實"},{"start":25453.329,"end":25455.851,"text":"為什麼沒有寫在調查報告裡面?你覺得這件事情跟這個謝榮的狀況無關嗎?那為什麼沒有寫在調查報告裡面?"},{"start":25483.423,"end":25501.337,"text":"你說你也聽聞到這樣的事情報告委員這個也是最近在整個調查之間有一些事實慢慢去呈現之後這個我們會進一步再來了解所以在寫這個調查報告前你知道這個事情嗎報告委員並沒有很清楚並沒有很清楚對整個署有這樣子打假卡的文化你說你沒有很清楚署長"},{"start":25510.8,"end":25528.735,"text":"發言委員這個是我沒有進到我的職場所以部長我希望齁當然我知道你做了處置但我我們在這邊要必須要求打假卡的做法跟文化必須要在勞動部裡面全面的清查不能讓它存在"},{"start":25530.445,"end":25549.369,"text":"這不是這一位公務人員他到底死因為何、直接因素為何的問題這是到底我們的勞動部還有沒有辦法再繼續成為臺灣中華民國政府在勞動方面的主管機關大家還信不信任勞動部的問題?部長可以嗎?好好,謝謝謝謝委員好,謝謝洪委員、謝謝部長接下來我們請劉許廷委員質詢"},{"start":25565.793,"end":25567.535,"text":"好 謝謝主席啊 何部長有請"},{"start":25577.981,"end":25602.145,"text":"部長辛苦了啊這一整天今天高達46位立法委員針對這樣的專案報告要提質詢這數量算非常非常多表示這是一個社會重大矚目的案件我們先從制度面來討論一下這件事因為今天很多委員已經問了個案的一些細節但本席相信這個是絕對不會是個案一個作威作福大頭病的官員欺負的絕對不會只有那個親生的人"},{"start":25602.705,"end":25627.507,"text":"所以我要先問勞動部部長這一段時間因為我沒有在調查報告裡面看到相關的數字只有這個不幸輕生的這個基層公務員他之前有沒有陳情過尋各種管道來為自己這個伸張正義有嗎完全沒有完全沒有其他人有沒有其他的基層公務員有沒有如果據我現在的資訊了解其他基層公務員"},{"start":25629.622,"end":25643.856,"text":"有透過各種其他的管道試圖要陳情可是也沒有在我的部會裡面有發現力量就是用各種別的方式要陳情但是就是沒有循自己部會的方式來陳情是這樣意思嗎那部長你會不會覺得有點難過這樣"},{"start":25646.644,"end":25673.14,"text":"照理來講勞動部應該是要幫基層說話的地方對不對幫勞工捍衛權利的地方結果發生了各種超時加班、職場霸凌等等的狀況竟然沒有人循正規的管道來反應這表示規則出了一些問題對不對我們部會裡也有因為霸凌案而立案的今天早上也很多委員問嘛你還有SOP等等但顯然如果剛剛部長的回答是就你所知循部裡面管道的基本上是沒有那不就表示你所有的機制跟SOP形同虛設嗎"},{"start":25674.639,"end":25695.874,"text":"對不對部長這是要檢討的對嘛這是要檢討對不對所以你剛剛在講說什麼我只有10天的時間可以反映這個是很奇怪的事因為這樣的事情一定是長期發生嘛現在很有可能會形成什麼形成公部門的MeToo事件每個人都說對啊其實這個地方文化就是這樣那制度如果不修改或者是制度失靈的時候我們應該怎麼辦呢部長"},{"start":25699.602,"end":25706.875,"text":"沒辦法文化的問題所以即便我們調整了SOP調整了規則調整了沒有用是嗎還是有別的做法精進措施"},{"start":25707.728,"end":25735.347,"text":"我們當然是要來檢討啦當然是要來檢討這個事情一時半刻當然講不清楚但是制度面你剛剛有講你要負起責任很多人講到政治責任你可能要離開這個位置好這是一個層面但是我覺得今天不只是你啦在場坐在這邊所有官員難道不應該及時廣義一下嗎怎麼樣改善公部門的文化也好或者是讓這個制度是可以保護當事人的這是大家都要共同深思的問題這是制度的部分那再來我要問政治的部分"},{"start":25736.267,"end":25761.743,"text":"這部長我唸幾個 你休息一下我唸幾段話給你聽民進黨這個前主席現在前總統蔡英文在評論當初洪仲秋事件的案子他說政府要負最大的責任因為政府一直試圖掩飾真相這個事件評論非常多但大家都非常不滿意現在看到的是不肯坦白不肯誠懇面對社會質疑的政府試圖想掩飾一些事我們必須給政府壓力要求改革同樣的事不要再發生"},{"start":25762.763,"end":25779.856,"text":"時任立委、現任高雄市市長陳其邁評論當初國防部部長因為洪仲秋事件請辭下台時他說:「國防部長高華柱請辭獲准,但這對釐清真相真的有幫助嗎?民進黨強烈反對將洪案的層級限縮在國防部部長。」"},{"start":25780.917,"end":25800.194,"text":"時任民進黨黨主席前行政院長蘇貞昌說政府做了很多刻意隱瞞人民的事情讓大家深深受害政府變成一個無能、賴皮、不負責又日漸粗暴的政府時任立委蕭美琴現任副總統說國防部對整件事情處理怠慢為在第一時間協助並保證受害者家屬"},{"start":25800.734,"end":25827.391,"text":"要求真相的權利處理過程中涉嫌掩蓋事實關關相互讓整起事件疑點重重令人遺憾當初也有公民團體現在不知道在哪裡說我們的政府沒有把人民當人看他們領我們的稅金殺我們的孩子再掰出一個爛劇本讓大家相信等到大家氣到吐血之後再跟大家說一切依法辦理謝謝指教部長你聽了這些話心中作何感想"},{"start":25828.576,"end":25855.695,"text":"當初有洪仲秋現在又有這位基層的公務員民進黨執政了這麼久改變了什麼你覺得這些曾經出來講過話的人他們應不應該再出來講一次話部長我想我們會來反省檢討我們要深刻的反省檢討我聽了今天很多委員的質詢我發現你部長你是我覺得你蠻勇敢的在這個地方這麼多的立法委員輪番砲轟但是我聽到的是你講說責任到你為止對不對"},{"start":25857.318,"end":25878.772,"text":"然後本來早上講說只是調職後來因為也許是社會壓力變成停職處分然後停職處分恐怕又完了因為現在這個當事人直接給你拍拍屁股走人離職出國陪小孩社會憤怒是越來越升高可是部長你今天如果是為長官護航然後為下屬護短的話我們沒有辦法解決任何的問題你的擔當不能用錯地方"},{"start":25879.392,"end":25904.563,"text":"大家希望的是你站在最基層基層公務員也好基層勞工也好付出勞力為自己討生活的這些人他是需要你付出擔當保護的人的地方但顯然我們今天還沒有看到這樣的態度其實啊令人心寒我最後要問部長一個問題很多時候你剛剛內部你講我們出現事情的時候行政單位的內部都會做所謂的行政調查可是行政調查今天出來的調查報告結果就是血流成河慘不忍睹"},{"start":25906.471,"end":25932.043,"text":"為什麼前一段時間國會要召開這個國會無法的修正本席認為這件事情完全構成成立聽證調查的要件請問部長你贊不贊成這件事情我們來辦聽證調查把當事人抓來把話講清楚你贊不贊成我尊重立院尊重立院你個人贊不贊成如果到時候聽證調查的時候要你來作證你會不會來作證我尊重立院尊重立院"},{"start":25934.09,"end":25957.639,"text":"這個喔 待會應該大家也會很好奇這樣子的事情的答案但只是尊重立院真的能夠滿足人民的需求嘛我們現在擔心的這個人現在拍拍屁股走啦當初這些高層講話的高層看起來責任到你為止不用負責當事人啊加害者逍遙法外可以直接出國走人這真的能夠平息社會的民怨嗎請部長三思啊 謝謝"},{"start":25960.907,"end":25987.154,"text":"謝謝林委員 謝謝部長來 繼續我們請羅志祥委員有請部長委員好部長我先念一段文章齁 您聽一下"},{"start":25988.578,"end":26006.235,"text":"你是位認真的公務員,早上6點就上班,下午4點可以下班,但你時常先打下班卡,然後再繼續工作。你下午被長官推薦,還被長官大罵,要求11月4日星期一務必交件。"},{"start":26007.837,"end":26034.418,"text":"11月3號星期日晚上家人來辦公室找你被保全阻擋無法進辦公室無法及時找到你11月4號星期一你把你的性命也一併交了出來這個文章你看過吧我們一位認真的公務員就在勞動部的霸凌之下他交出了工作"},{"start":26036.152,"end":26064.463,"text":"同時也交出了他的生命部長我看到你在備詢時落淚但我跟你講你真的也該落淚你勞動部的員工今天走上這麼悲慘的決路這麼認真的員工辛辛苦苦努力的員工不是他而已多少今天被分屬員工被這位長官霸凌壓迫"},{"start":26065.882,"end":26090.862,"text":"而這位我們這位員工走上了絕路你當然該感到難過可更該難過的是他的家屬更該難過的是我們所有的公務員更該難過也生氣的是今天勞動部是管勞工權益的單位你們的單位竟然發生霸凌員工致死的案件"},{"start":26092.403,"end":26116.52,"text":"你叫全國的勞工怎麼看這件事情這是全民之怒你知道吧您知道吧您知道那我告訴你剛前面很多委員拿起洪仲秋事件來做一個比喻你知道洪仲秋事件發生之後直屬長官被法辦對不對國防部長下台對不對"},{"start":26123.155,"end":26127.416,"text":"馬英九總統出面道歉還到往生者靈堂上香對不對那我想請教你你現在這位公務員認真的公務員他往生了可惡的謝宜龍跑了躲起來了他還是得送考機會送考機會他辭職都要出國陪小孩禮拜五說你要找他來他會來嗎"},{"start":26150.595,"end":26166.603,"text":"我已經直接給他停止了對阿你剛剛說禮拜五你要找他來阿你說他會來嗎他不會理你啦他會來嗎請問你他還是得送考機會送考機會他會來今天出來面對社會大眾嗎你除了記者會他都不願意面對了剛剛牛許晴委員講這個情形就構成聽證調查我告訴你你不用尊重立法院"},{"start":26179.165,"end":26192.497,"text":"這麼大的事情這可惡的謝宜龍就應該把他叫來國會把所有事情問清楚問明白今天做得到嗎?部長今天做得到嗎?請問不要講你叫他來他不會理你國會叫他來會不會理?會不會理?你跟我講會不會理嗎?"},{"start":26212.768,"end":26240.63,"text":"委員我們會盡全力來處理他不會理啦因為大法官做他的靠山啦大法官說不用理立法院啦全世界都有聽證調查大法官把他沒收了國防部長當時洪仲秋下台了你現在還是在這個地方你還是在這個地方你剛說過了你可以離開我知道但我就看你怎麼離開"},{"start":26242.264,"end":26251.726,"text":"我先告訴你喔這件事情我必須客觀的講你有責任沒錯吧我有責任阿對當然責任全部全在你也有別人有責任那有責任的跑了叫許明春他重用這個人綠帳狗市阿狗帳綠市阿今天他為什麼可以這麼囂張"},{"start":26268.951,"end":26272.814,"text":"你竟然在這邊要代替他接受社會大眾的責難他比你還大我告訴你"},{"start":26294.962,"end":26296.923,"text":"第三個我就要說"},{"start":26323.11,"end":26331.813,"text":"紅仲丘案馬總統親自出來道歉親自到往生者靈堂上香求賴總統到現在說一句話沒我告訴你你也承擔不了賴清德總統我不是怪你因為這你不能決定但你至少告訴賴清德總統人民有多憤怒到現在為止他一句話都沒說什麼叫你犯的錯"},{"start":26351.153,"end":26359.777,"text":"責任是一個垂直體系那我馬總統也可以講那是國防部犯的錯阿我自己承擔阿馬總統也可以講國防部犯的錯不關我的事阿你們幹嘛找我叫國防部長出來說這是我的錯我承擔就好阿到現在為止在新的總統是沒有一句話說欸這樣對嗎這樣可以嗎"},{"start":26376.328,"end":26397.532,"text":"再來我要告訴部長為什麼你有責任我剛剛講許明川今天用了這個人重用這個人靠著他的事今天囂張跋扈出事不負責任躲起來可是我跟你講今天我跟部長講我今天看你的報告我真的看到快吐血了你什麼噁心瀝血的報告是讓人吐血的報告今天謝宜龍可以這麼囂張"},{"start":26403.086,"end":26430.374,"text":"你們今天勞動部這份報告就是一面照妖精就是他的幫兇你知道嗎你知道什麼叫草菅人命這個報告叫草菅人命你知道什麼叫官官相護這個報告就是官官相護然後我跟你講你裡面竟然可以大大說謝芬署長的管理方式不是同人親身直接原因你憑什麼做這個結論啊"},{"start":26432.912,"end":26435.173,"text":"請問部長你憑什麼做這個結論當然你後來改啊改口啦你說要開始記他兩大過啊停職啊你說這裡就有霸凌當然我前面也講過啦你的霸凌裡面也是一個非常奇怪的霸凌你說有霸凌但是不是發生在往生者身上他沒有對往生者霸凌他對其他人霸凌"},{"start":26456.787,"end":26466.376,"text":"我跟你講今天正因為你的報告還說他目的良善捏你還說得出這個謝宜龍目的良善今天謝宜龍當然這麼囂張啊你今天如果今天勞動部你都在幫他背書的時候你告訴我"},{"start":26475.606,"end":26489.355,"text":"他能不囂張嗎?我們能不今天疑惑到底謝宜龍何許人背後靠山到底多大還要勞駕你打電話給民進黨黨部透過民進黨黨部去關心民進黨的議員他怎麼那麼厲害啊還勞駕你在這邊一個人來承受今天大家的一個質詢他自己躲起來"},{"start":26501.704,"end":26522.014,"text":"我真的沒看過這麼大的官比你還大最後我要說我真的誠懇的奉勸今天所以部長你今天你說過你會以符合社會期待的方式來負起責任我看著你怎麼以符合社會期待的方式來負起責任第二個你身為勞動部部長你要去讓賴清德總統知道你要讓卓榮泰院長知道"},{"start":26530.539,"end":26545.392,"text":"這件事是讓整個勞動部捍衛勞工權益免受霸凌的信任全部崩盤還能躲著不講話真的是不應該請賴總統出來今天對全國勞工人說一聲對不起吧謝謝你好 謝謝羅委員 謝謝部長繼續我們請鄭正前委員質詢"},{"start":26561.128,"end":26562.075,"text":"主席好我請一下何部長"},{"start":26570.365,"end":26591.251,"text":"部長你好我想說今天整天備詢下來其實我們也看到你掉眼淚我們也看到你對於原本的調查報告提出了很多不同的轉折提出了一些新的處分那因為我看到了這個整個調查報告當中你們記者會當中直接講到說沒有辦法證明北分署長謝怡榮有實際的職場霸凌的情形我真的完全崩潰"},{"start":26593.272,"end":26616.725,"text":"這麼多一個北分署、勞動署和勞發署這一邊一兩百個人寫出陳情書喔民進黨民意代表收到了超過150份以上的陳情書這麼多的案例當中的時候你說沒有辦法證明還有實際的職場霸凌我想問一下部長喔怎麼樣才叫做有實際的職場霸凌你可以具體講一下"},{"start":26619.503,"end":26631.979,"text":"對,我們在調查報告裡面其實也有證實他確實有對其他的同仁有實際的職場霸凌所以對其他的同仁有實際的可是對這個往生者無性的共生是沒有職場霸凌"},{"start":26632.793,"end":26654.773,"text":"透過誠誠的傳達有可能OK誠誠的傳達嘛因為我對這部分的時候完全沒辦法接受而且因為看到你們記者會之後呢很多的人繼續在爆料就第一個爆料說我們的所有的那個調查小組的組成的成員啊很多人都跟謝宜龍有直接的關係或間接的關係"},{"start":26656.534,"end":26681.729,"text":"至少在陳情人裡面昨天跟我們聯絡的就有了他們就直接講到說這些小組裡面有很多人跟他有什麼樣的關係然後就直接寫出來直接間接的很多他就直接講到說這調查相互組分別就是關關相互所以大家看到這個調查報告絕對就是勞動部出來要來幫這個分署長洗地用的你知道嗎只是沒有想到這樣出來之後就讓大家更惱怒"},{"start":26682.689,"end":26706.064,"text":"更惱怒所以你剛剛也直接講到說那個拉巴族署長會被記憶大過會調離現職對不對都直接講了這個都是今天在備詢當中才直接做了一個轉彎那我本期這邊要特別提到說因為大家看到你們這個記者會內容之後有人繼續來爆料就有人講說謝宜龍他在他當分署長任內的時候"},{"start":26707.881,"end":26729.313,"text":"有很多的標案都先指定廠商先做了之後再來把後面的程序補起來你知道這個事情嗎我們正在調查中調查中嘛那現在的情況碰到這個情況的時候我們看到謝榮可能想要一走了之拍在屁股走掉那我們要怎麼去追究這後續的一個責任"},{"start":26730.712,"end":26745.259,"text":"還是會送考機會溢儲的他如果都不當公務人員他還送考機會還在乎你送考機會溢儲搞出人命出來的人就走掉了所以在這個部分本席也特別要求我們他還沒有做出處分前我不會准他的辭呈"},{"start":26746.175,"end":26759.286,"text":"沒有做出處分前不會准他離職我們都記住然後我們也希望召委這邊針對這個案子的時候希望能夠在院會當中提出一個調查委員會成立一個調查委員會針對這部分來做一個很詳細的一個糾正因為在勞動部"},{"start":26763.729,"end":26763.949,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":26783.729,"end":26811.472,"text":"要哭的是老百姓要哭的是勞工不是高高在上的官員那我在這邊也特別提到在這過程當中11月4號當天的時候謝宜龍他就召開了三場的說明會針對分署裡面的員工就開始講出通靈說這個部分然後還要求大家能不能夠做得到不要把這個霸凌的事情往外說明部長你知道這事情嗎"},{"start":26814.115,"end":26829.48,"text":"曾經事情當中他們很具體講到三場謝榮姐講了三場他那個發言不當啦發言不當對不對所以我們希望針對教訓一定要嚴加考慮然後我這邊最後再問一個行政院人事行政總處這邊"},{"start":26833.003,"end":26852.262,"text":"因為馬上因為勞動部發生這件事情之後很多其他的部會也開始報出來類似的一個案子今天下午馬上就報出了一個衛福部、疾管署也出現土皇帝這樣的事情的時候我們政府到底要怎麼去做"},{"start":26856.462,"end":26864.081,"text":"這個部分的話該調查該處理的就是要做處理我想院長在上個禮拜的院會也有"},{"start":26867.791,"end":26888.268,"text":"我們在看到這當中的時候我們希望就是政府真的是能夠去執行解決問題而不是只想要解決提出問題的人因為新北的民進黨議員李雨祥受到了關切然後大家就覺得說怎麼會一個民進黨的議員"},{"start":26890.914,"end":26893.295,"text":"這個調查過程我想機關在做處理我們有相關的處理機制在運作"},{"start":26918.601,"end":26942.532,"text":"OK那我想說這邊的時候我們就期待我們接下來的時候我們在院會當中的時候能夠成立一個針對這個議案的一個調查委員會希望能夠真正透過國會的一個聽證調查權把這問題能夠釐清該負責任的人直接負責任而不是部長直接講說責任到他就可以了我們認為這件事情是整個行政體系的一個問題不是一個部長"},{"start":26943.823,"end":26944.144,"text":"報告委員因為我這個這個"},{"start":26951.55,"end":26977.89,"text":"提出申訴的話依照我們現行的相關的那個作業流程理解我剛才也再來只是要特別提到機關署也發現土航地請直接那個機關署他們也已經在啟動調查理解對所以在行政院這邊成立委員會這我沒辦法在這邊做成這個不是我的職權範圍而且所以我們立法院要成立委員會不是行政院還是回到機關裡面來做處理理解謝謝"},{"start":26984.122,"end":26986.735,"text":"謝謝鄭委員 接下來我們請林倩許委員質詢"},{"start":26997.141,"end":27015.589,"text":"主席、令人同仁還有我們行政院的夥伴們今天針對這個職場霸凌防治與處理作業我想請我們的勞動部長、衛福部長及教育部的代表我們先一起上來好不好我想基本上我們是這個部長請還有衛福部司長還有教育部處長好"},{"start":27021.836,"end":27033.765,"text":"我先就教育部的這個部分那個近期有兩個霸凌事件引起社會的這個關注第一個是臺灣基層的球這個體壇報出不當的體罰那麼這個教練呢這其實是選手在"},{"start":27044.23,"end":27056.139,"text":"網路上報出這樣一個問題但事實上這件事情已經今年累月了那本席在這邊要討論的是教育部你們其實在112年3月17號在專任運動教練增能研習納入教練領導行為之專業之能的書面報告中已經做過相關說明但是"},{"start":27071.544,"end":27075.766,"text":"所以我在這邊跟你講因為我們今天其實是針對怎麼樣防治霸凌的防治跟處理那我相信今天的議題一整天許多人都針對現在時事的議題提出了很多的看法"},{"start":27101.255,"end":27116.909,"text":"但我這邊要先提醒的是你們在之前已經發生過相關的霸凌事件也寫過報告但是這個報告截至今年又已經經過了一兩年這個事情還是在發生據我所知體談的這件事情教練也已經離開了"},{"start":27119.314,"end":27143.308,"text":"那這就會關係到剛才前面有委員有講的就那個勞動部如果未來相關的人員也離開了雖然部長這邊也有做一些承諾但是教育部你們已經碰到人員離開了但這件事情在現在已經造成選手的終身的遺憾所以本席在這邊特別指出因為你們的不積極作為"},{"start":27145.219,"end":27145.339,"text":"事實上"},{"start":27159.377,"end":27162.66,"text":"我這邊先做一個提醒我們不希望未來再聽到有這樣的事件發生好謝謝教育部麻煩你把這個話帶回去"},{"start":27187.981,"end":27195.586,"text":"那接下來我就針對這個勞動部部長我想今天從早到現在很多人都已經指出你們發生的事情你這邊也做了很多回應但是我還是強調這件事情在過程當中你們難道都沒有掌握嗎"},{"start":27218.769,"end":27221.111,"text":"請你說明一下好不好"},{"start":27249.623,"end":27273.483,"text":"好 報告委員這個案子其實完全是我的責任那北分所這一兩年確實離任率比較多那是在過程當中你們有掌握嗎對 因為我們大概有去了解那個離退的原因那因為有些是因為是退休那有些是因為是升遷那有些是因為個人所以你們完全沒有掌握任何跟這些事情相關的直接的訊息嗎"},{"start":27274.164,"end":27303.802,"text":"跟委員報告因為這段時間真確實是也沒有任何來反映有遭受到一些其他的不當的情形如果有其實我們第一時間一定會做一個徹底的一個調查那這聽起來還真是如生門怎麼辦呢然後部長說他要概括承受結果你們在事前也沒有掌握那我不知道未來還有沒有可能發生這樣子的事情跟委員報告這個事件我們會痛定思痛我們會針對我們內控的一些因素我們會加強來做一些管理"},{"start":27305.317,"end":27327.869,"text":"好 謝謝勞動部所以整體是不是衛福部不好意思衛福部那個職場心理健康是很重要的一個議題那這次勞動部發生這個事情我們常常都是在發生事情然後處理之後事實上我們都挽救不了任何的事啊那請問你們在這個區塊怎麼做呢"},{"start":27331.804,"end":27347.611,"text":"你們不是有這個相關的自殺防治法嗎然後還要結合各部會我想了解一下結合各部會結合勞動部出了這個事教育部還有未解決的問題那請問衛福部在這個部分你們的困難跟你覺得真正的問題癥結在哪裡"},{"start":27349.907,"end":27364.326,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們不管是在促進全民的心理健康提升全民的心理健康韌性或者在做自殺防治的部分這個都是要跨部會大家一起來做的那所以怎麼個跨防呢事情一直在發生而且發生到很離譜啦"},{"start":27366.327,"end":27385.452,"text":"其實不管是在這個勞動部或是國防部或是教育部等等部會其實在提升自己權管範圍之內的這個民眾的心理健康都有提出一些作為我知道你們都有很多報告很多作為可是重點是你們這個自殺防治法的相關作為"},{"start":27387.449,"end":27387.929,"text":"謝謝委員那我們會結合其他部會一起來把這個報告提出來謝謝"},{"start":27413.939,"end":27417.38,"text":"好 謝謝林委員 謝謝部長 現在休息3分鐘"},{"start":27445.093,"end":27445.574,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":27693.484,"end":27694.284,"text":"好,我們現在繼續開會好,謝謝何部長有請"},{"start":27723.373,"end":27746.22,"text":"不好意思 召委有請何部長好 我要先跟大家開宗明義講我接下來的態度很強硬很大聲但是我目的良善我要告訴大家網路都在說啊生前生疏無果死後追風講張全民都在笑"},{"start":27747.611,"end":27772.111,"text":"我要問現在部長你們要追封然後你現在公務人員撫恤金全民買單嗎?你要不要幫助這些家屬幫忙求償?說清楚講明白我一定會幫忙爭取公務人員撫恤的部分公務人員撫恤講白的大家大大方方拿的是誰的錢?人民的納稅錢但是卻是霸凌者該負的責任"},{"start":27774.278,"end":27782.604,"text":"部長你終於承認終於終於承認他是霸凌你還配合演戲開記者會部長我對你一絲的尊重從那一場記者會蕩然無存你很認真的負責任去做這件事情但是為什麼你在幫助加害者你說目的良善你現在才告訴我現在這份報告有問題"},{"start":27805.011,"end":27817.915,"text":"部長大家不能接受為死者發聲啊今天你掉了這麼多的眼淚而這些是鱷魚的眼淚換不回一條人命我知道你很委屈我知道你掉淚我知道這個人不是你把著的但部長你覺得你委屈嗎"},{"start":27834.468,"end":27836.229,"text":"我們罵不到那個把著他的人我們都痛心疾首但是問題擺在眼前貴黨的委員劉建國112年3月到現在有高達81位"},{"start":27856.687,"end":27871.699,"text":"其中不管還有主管有9位的主任、5位的科長、2位的股長、1位的廠長兩年有17位主管離職、81位所有的同仁離開這個場所監委到現在還爆料還有國防部、衛福部、教育部"},{"start":27881.69,"end":27887.835,"text":"不要看到勞動部被罵沒你們的事趕快回去徹查有沒有這樣子的不適任主管到現在50分鐘前謝怡榮出招了他說他不等你來給他記兩大過他自行請辭"},{"start":27903.905,"end":27917.116,"text":"委員我不會准他的磁場我知道但我們看到的是什麼?態度問題!謝宜蓉到現在還沒有道歉而我們所有的人在探討整個公寮腐敗今天你說你要下台你說你要負政治責任林佳龍為了51條人命他負政治責任他連火車都不會開"},{"start":27934.69,"end":27941.952,"text":"你今天為了我們這一個勞動部的同仁我要告訴你我幫你算了一件事情你聽聽看"},{"start":27944.602,"end":27971.605,"text":"這件事情發生在11月4號一名40歲的公務人員在4樓上班搭4號電梯一直到11月14號星期四下午4點在勞動部的臉書你寫下了400餘字的談話這麼多的事這麼多的事到底是冥冥之中有注定"},{"start":27974.438,"end":27998.798,"text":"還是死者死不瞑目我還看到了你那一份報告目的良善還看到了你們跟大家講的這一個謝分署長告訴我們他有去觀落陰這一份報告根本就是泯滅人心分署長冷血部長你是冷眼啊這件事情"},{"start":28003.049,"end":28022.975,"text":"我跟你講我剛剛也點名了各個部會不要只看勞動部被罵各個部會有沒有這樣子的不是任主管是我們現在持續要追蹤的但今天我們看到的要不是蘇清泉委員他排了這一案勞動部會面對嗎到今天你可能還神隱欸署長"},{"start":28027.369,"end":28033.114,"text":"我昨天就出來開記者會記者會內容全民能接受嗎你昨天不開記者會還好開了只是討罵讓人民看到勞動部部長還幫謝怡榮講話難怪你會被糾正難怪你會今天逃不過我們專案報告你有沒有覺得你很委屈"},{"start":28055.233,"end":28060.297,"text":"你有沒有感受到我的目的良善有沒有蔡牧良你要不要即刻停職我要尊重你覺得你應該要不要負政治責任報告委員我覺得我已經不適格擔任署長"},{"start":28079.554,"end":28093.748,"text":"我們不是要弄你們阿而是全民都在關注一條人命發生在勞動部勞動部要保護勞工而勞動竟然死在自己的勞動部的辦公室搞什麼鬼阿他選擇在自己的上班地點上吊自殺你告訴我他是愛這個地方還是恨這個地方"},{"start":28108.086,"end":28110.728,"text":"我無法感受到他當時有多麼恐慌難怪你們今天草野、團結、一致檢討我希望兩位你們要負上你們自己的政治責任好,謝謝劉委員,語重心長來,最後一個請陳雲委員趕快"},{"start":28142.636,"end":28170.003,"text":"謝謝主席那個麻煩請部長那個蔡署長一起好了那個部長我想這邊有一些資訊我先確認一下就是謝宜榮分署長他是否已經請辭還是他是已經就是說你們打算兩大過免是因為我剛有聽到消息說他已經請辭你有你有準嗎"},{"start":28174.266,"end":28181.086,"text":"我請署長澄清好嗎好報告委員到目前沒有接到謝副分署長有請職的這樣的一個情形"},{"start":28181.442,"end":28210.882,"text":"好那我想在這邊說明一下因為我聽到這個消息我還蠻我還蠻錯愕也蠻恐慌的就是因為請辭跟兩大過免職的差異在於請辭他還有機會可以再回任的因為我剛剛看到一個消息說他請辭然後是想到國要理由是要到國外陪小孩剛剛有接到這樣的訊息齁那那這個就表示他等風波過了他還可以再回來嗎這個恐怖的人還可以再回來嗎"},{"start":28212.523,"end":28229.739,"text":"所以我想在這邊點出這個你們要特別注意如果今天部長輕易的答應了核准了他的請辭我覺得這個才是對死者最大的不敬真的太便宜他了因為我們等於還在袒護他還在給他一次機會那麼"},{"start":28233.74,"end":28261.56,"text":"另外我說三位齁很倒霉陪葬的官員部長他們有什麼處分啊是算已經口頭公佈了嗎就是根本報告我剛剛已經做就是表達我的態度就是謝榮記兩大過停職那麼我們蔡署長記一大過調離主管職那還有兩位移送司法"},{"start":28262.93,"end":28264.852,"text":"其實有很多的委員有問過蔡署長說謝怡榮是不是你推薦的"},{"start":28293.001,"end":28312.495,"text":"其實答案很清楚不是不是蔡署長推薦的因為我們都知道檢認缺不是署長的權責可以決定的所以謝芬署長不是蔡署長推薦的人那是因為上面交辦他必須按照流程去蓋章嘛我這樣講有沒有錯"},{"start":28316.025,"end":28340.984,"text":"你是說謝分署長任命的過程嗎?對啊,他不是...你如果照行政程序流程是什麼意思?剛剛有問嘛,那我直接問蔡署長,請問謝榮署長分署長是你推薦的嗎?你推薦他去做分署長的嗎?你要講清楚,是你自己push這件事去推他還是你按照上頭交辦行政流程你必須要蓋這個章?"},{"start":28344.842,"end":28369.239,"text":"這個因為這涉及到我們的分署的首長所以都是要跟長官先報告好這樣我了解因為也非常符合你的答案也是非常符合我們的理解就是簡任卻不是署長你可以做就是可以主張做決定但是在行政這個行政的流程你必須你必須要蓋章嗎"},{"start":28370.12,"end":28383.051,"text":"好那我想在我想你的角色其實也很尷尬因為在這個事情發生之前你已經是可以退休的人而且你已經申請過退休了但是你真的還蠻倒楣的好那"},{"start":28385.313,"end":28411.152,"text":"你很...就是說可能對這樣的工作你有熱情你留下來協助大家但是也很不幸的遇到這樣的事情但是我個人我不敢網路上網友對你有什麼批評跟誤會但是我覺得我覺得認真做事情的人也不應該在這個時候被霸凌所以我也要說出一些真相那我在這裡我也不怕人家來撻伐我要替...我要替這個蔡署長"},{"start":28412.653,"end":28424.481,"text":"說幾句話我很佩服他他從頭到尾我聽到的就是他說都是我的錯他承擔我希望勞動部的每一位長官都有他這樣的一個風骨"},{"start":28425.816,"end":28453.969,"text":"我不會在這裡拜託說強留他留下來因為我覺得這件事情或許在在他的心裡在很多人心裡已經造成遺憾但是他就是說都是我的錯他全部承擔他也沒有從頭到尾沒有點出到底是誰交辦要用要任命謝怡榮這件事情他就是承擔所以他自己不講我在這裡替他講我覺得"},{"start":28455.495,"end":28475.524,"text":"已經有人因為被霸凌結束了自己的生命我也希望在接下來所有的處分裡面都可以清清楚楚調查清楚包括今天在處理臨時提案的時候我還特別提到了二月份就有人檢舉這件事情"},{"start":28476.96,"end":28503.013,"text":"那我們之前的次長也呈報了這件事情但是很奇怪這件事情就是到不了部長的手上部長就是聽不到就沒辦法看到為什麼中間那個門神是誰呀請你們好好去查一查啦所以今天很遺憾的蔡署長必須必須要去接受一個大過然後"},{"start":28504.804,"end":28507.345,"text":"我也非常感謝蔡署長因為他本來要退休了"},{"start":28533.945,"end":28561.65,"text":"是我硬把他留下來的是我懇求他留下來的他在這個過程裡面幫忙了我非常多突破了很多政策包括最近我們好不容易要上路的多元陪伴服務方案包括台印的MOU我真的覺得我有這個榮幸與他一起共事他是一位非常優秀的文官"},{"start":28563.956,"end":28576.203,"text":"我也很抱歉我拖累了他但是部長我也抱歉我拖累了他真的很抱歉部長我想"},{"start":28577.856,"end":28580.457,"text":"我會向行政院請辭我會向行政院請辭"},{"start":28603.327,"end":28624.275,"text":"希望的不是你被逼請辭而是你發自內心你認為你應該要請辭負責因為我看到的是蔡署長他第一時間他就他就覺得他就表態他就是說他的錯他他要負責但是我覺得比他更高階的長官應該更有那個風骨跟氣度展現出來但我很高興你現在講出這樣的話"},{"start":28626.797,"end":28654.833,"text":"那所以我想在這件事情發生之後我覺得我有更重要的建議也趁兩位站在這裡的時候因為我不知道下次還會不會看到你們我先提一下這個非常重要的是因為在財團法人災害預防重建中心在華山辦理這個關懷殖災勞工及眷屬的援遊會媒體露出了一個非常重要的訊息那就是他們除了要面對僱主是否願意負責外呢跟要面對接種而來的社會現實"},{"start":28656.134,"end":28676.17,"text":"這個包括了未來的家庭、經濟衝擊還有漫長的這個復健的過程那家人也必須要跟著受苦那你們可以辦這樣的活動讓這個職災勞工跟眷屬的聲音被報導出來那這個是一項非常重要的突破表示你們願意正視這個問題那本席也在這裡表示對這樣的事情表示肯定"},{"start":28676.75,"end":28703.002,"text":"但是我也注意到了一件事職災勞工的心理復健可能也是要被重視的一個議題那現在的做法好像是交由醫院的心理專業人員去諮商那我明白你們有做只是說多少比例的這個職災勞工他有用到這樣子的資源以及使用之後到底成效如何那個署長你有沒有數據可以跟我們來外界說明有沒有數據簡短部長"},{"start":28705.799,"end":28709.764,"text":"來我跟你講數據吼我的理解吼不是個位數就是十位數而已喔很低喔"},{"start":28724.921,"end":28742.555,"text":"阿你如果覺得我講得串沒關心你資料準備好你下次來告訴大家因為今天我們關注了這個資產霸凌的問題我記得之前我們也曾經關心過這個勞工的心理健康如何被支持的議題一般勞工會因為過高的這個職業壓力過勞而衍生心理健康的問題另外"},{"start":28744.136,"end":28769.697,"text":"一個就是霸凌那這三種的類型的這個心理傷害主要是發生在一般的職場那仍然而且是仍然在職的這個勞工朋友但是我們似乎忘記了一件很重要的事就是還有一群更弱勢的職災勞工他們跟眷屬眷屬的這個憂鬱跟悲傷是因為職災而發生的那他們也有心理傷害所以同時呢"},{"start":28770.538,"end":28798.57,"text":"我覺得這個部分也可以被災保法的資源來保護跟關懷那部長跟這個署長覺得我這樣的建議提醒是不是應該要被接受先委員提醒因為現行部分重要職災的家屬我們會給慰勞、給慰助跟一些協助那委員提醒就是後續心理的一些協助我覺得是很好的對還有家屬的部分也很重要那因為本席今天關注的重點是職災勞工跟眷屬的心理壓力如何被照顧還有你們過去有做但不知道做得好不好的前提之下呢"},{"start":28799.23,"end":28813.885,"text":"我想在這邊提出兩項的建議就是這個職災勞工可以單獨使用心理治療跟諮商的權利而不是只有參加你們的職能復健的個案之後才有機會獲得幫助"},{"start":28816.196,"end":28834.453,"text":"這個是很重要的一件事情對一定要調整好嗎然後更重要的是說你們都要先評估然後由這個醫院安排臨床心理醫師去輔導這樣的機制對這個職災勞工是非常不方便的那如果這個職災勞工有心理問題可不可以"},{"start":28834.973,"end":28856.025,"text":"直接去找醫師或心理師只要是這個職災引起的就如同這個職業病一樣就可以免費診治那特別是有這種災後症候群PTSD的這一群可以被治療被照顧甚至甚至就是要給這個更高的這個診療費用你們可不可以做到"},{"start":28857.032,"end":28873.557,"text":"跟委員報告應該是這個處理機制的問題我們當然是哲學阿公跟我們反映之後我們透過機制就馬上送到心理師做諮商這個程序我們會再做檢討不是啦 因為有時候要經過你們那一關的時候大家就會就會擔心啦報告委員當然他這樣心理師諮商也是我們有合作的心理師這樣子很明確的那個"},{"start":28875.297,"end":28875.838,"text":"第二點就是說可以擴及到職在勞工的眷屬"},{"start":28892.02,"end":28892.04,"text":"是,謝謝"},{"start":28916.001,"end":28916.021,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":28945.188,"end":28946.149,"text":"謝謝主席。我們有請部長跟人總。"},{"start":28980.998,"end":28982.099,"text":"我不敢有期許"},{"start":29010.373,"end":29037.595,"text":"也沒有任何遺憾我覺得我這6個月得到很多文官朋友的幫助我非常的感謝是難得的寶貴的經驗 謝謝好 那我想因為其實勞動部在這一次的事件上面因為我想我們今天要來做的就是如何精進未來我們可以如何避免這樣子的憾事再發生那我想我自己做個簡單的建議那我也希望部長可以交接給未來的部長也就是說這一次我們發現了就是"},{"start":29038.956,"end":29052.606,"text":"很多員工說他們有申訴但是在機制上面在布裡面卻完全看不到這是一個申訴機制到底暢不暢通或是有沒有被掩蓋的事實這個可能要做個清查第二個部分是說我們在調資料的時候呢我們有發現說"},{"start":29054.997,"end":29055.217,"text":"謝謝部長好"},{"start":29081.178,"end":29094.428,"text":"我想因為其實昨天任總也就做了一個回應那這段回應我覺得我簡單來說就是我要給你緣額請你們自己檢討你們自己的人力但是我必須要跟任總來做個說明這件事情"},{"start":29098.526,"end":29113.619,"text":"這個員工他本身就是處理資訊系統的人所以導致他的壓力過大不得不選上青春這一圖所以你今天告訴他說請你們檢查業務量的分配和考慮使用科技的方式我想這是文不對題沒有針對到這件事情的回應"},{"start":29114.62,"end":29122.764,"text":"那我想這件事情我們應該如何務實的來檢討根據公務人員服務法第12條第3項是這樣子寫的每天不能夠超過12個小時各機關為推動業務需要"},{"start":29127.728,"end":29144.534,"text":"每日不得超過12個小時延長辦公時數每月不得超過60小時但為了搶救重大災害處理緊急或重大突發事件的話可以延長這樣子所以這名公務員呢看他10月份的工作時數的話每天大約7點就到了"},{"start":29145.154,"end":29159.113,"text":"那到下午大概6點的時候下班扣除中間一個小時的話他每天工作大約是9個小時但我們剛剛看剛剛那個打卡紀錄嘛我們就知道這是假的紀錄因為他打完卡之後又回去上班你們認為這個問題出現在哪裡"},{"start":29162.919,"end":29183.725,"text":"跟委員報告就是說基本上公務人員打假卡其實是不允許的啦對但是為什麼會因為我想這件事情不是只有這個機關有很多的公務員都跟我們反映有類似的情形那你覺得原因是什麼那因為保障法已經有明定就是說你公務人員加班要經主管指派"},{"start":29184.98,"end":29188.841,"text":"我覺得這個回答其實是完全沒有了解基層的現況"},{"start":29213.567,"end":29240.857,"text":"非常非常狀況外的一個回答因為為什麼今天他們要這麼要去做這個打假卡加班的這件事情呢你們不要說你們不知情因為每次跟你們討論要不要增加員額的時候你們的反應都是要機關自行的去盤點閒置的人力或者直接說主計總處沒有錢然後這些機關就只好這樣日復一日的繼續下去待不下去的人可能就趕快的離職掉去新的單位那或者是說"},{"start":29241.897,"end":29245.06,"text":"對於同仁如果真的有加班逝世該給加班補休的或加班費這個機關就是要依規定來辦理"},{"start":29267.13,"end":29267.23,"text":"黃婕、黃婕、黃婕委員不在"},{"start":29298.075,"end":29325.781,"text":"邱志維、邱志維、邱志維委員不在萬美玲改書面執行賴志寶、賴志寶、賴志寶委員不在林國成、林國成改書面執行柯之恩委員改書面執行陳培宇、陳培宇、陳培宇委員不在鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌委員不在"},{"start":29326.724,"end":29350.723,"text":"王宏威委員不在何欣淳委員不在吳秉瑞委員不在本日會議詢問全部結束委員林國成、張家俊、柯志恩、萬美玲所提書面執行列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":29353.061,"end":29369.116,"text":"現在作以下決定,報告與審討完畢。委員執行為其答覆或請補充資料者請相關於兩週內書面答覆,委員歷行要求者從其鎖定。本日會議到此結束,現在散會。"},{"start":29379.479,"end":29379.78,"text":"主席"},{"start":29409.713,"end":29410.758,"text":"這是一個零四的問題"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}