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rt":2227.523,"end":2246.408,"text":"目前已完成第一組儲存互相運儲相關作業本會派員全程檢查而核二廠室外乾除部分本會已完成儲存容器及相關組件設備之製造品質查核此外本會亦嚴格執行和物料相關設施與運送作業之安全管制工作"},{"start":2247.088,"end":2272.005,"text":"在提升核災、伏災、跨機關應變效能部分透過今年視察核電廠場內演習及辦理核安演習納入日本能登半島震災、烏鱷軍事衝突及複合式災害等情境以提升核電廠安全防護能力另外一與11個縣市政府合作辦理民安十號輻射災害應變演練精進我國中央與地方輻射災害聯合應變能力"},{"start":2273.746,"end":2299.072,"text":"在推動輻射醫療瀑布平保方面執行102家醫院輻防與醫療瀑布平保作業檢查完成全國370部X光機平保審查並辦理護理人員巡迴講座強化民眾醫療輻射安全此外執行高強度輻射設施執照申請案審查完成100件放射線照相檢驗工作"},{"start":2299.972,"end":2320.26,"text":"工地不預警稽查,並持續辦理輻射屋居民健康檢查與道府健康關懷訪視,落實輻射安全管制。在全國環境輻射監測方面,針對核設施周圍環境,全國放射性落成,食品及飲用水等,截至今年10月底已完成檢測4397件,分析結果沒有異常情形。"},{"start":2324.142,"end":2340.739,"text":"令全天候24小時運作之全國63座環境輻射監測站,監測結果均在環境背景輻射變動範圍內。令針對進口食品之輻射檢測,協助食藥署進行分析每年提供7萬件以上之檢測量能。"},{"start":2341.48,"end":2367.232,"text":"有關因應日本寒川廢水部分．跨部會共組因應平台．各一職長執行海水漁獲物．日本輸入水產食品以及生態樣本等取樣及檢測作業．截至今年10月底已完成3537件．分析結果沒有異常情形．此外今年6月底起．國內生物川檢測量能則由每年的500件提升到2000件．"},{"start":2368.433,"end":2394.069,"text":"接下來報告推動原子能科技創新的部分在拓展國際交流並擅近核子保防義務部分持續與美國、日本等相關核安管制機構定期召開會議交流同時國際原子能總署更連續第18年宣告我國所有核物料均用於核能和平用途後續將持續關注國際動態積極與各國建立新的合作管道"},{"start":2395.049,"end":2414.269,"text":"在推動社會溝通及原子能科普教育部分,設立全民參與事務諮詢會,針對社會關注的核安、福安管制議題之溝通模式,邀請諮詢委員給予指導與建議,另以原子能科普進行社會溝通,積極與其他單位合作,以多元管道擴大原子能科普諮詢之傳播。"},{"start":2415.991,"end":2432.052,"text":"為推動原子能科技基礎研究落實原子能科技研發之整合本會與國科會共同推動學術合作研究計劃深化原子能科技研發能量促進在醫學、農業、工業環境永續之研究發展與人才培育"},{"start":2432.873,"end":2452.269,"text":"因應產業需求本會補助國營院執行各項專案計劃建立各項原子能關鍵技術並配合國家淨零轉型及本土核電廠自主技術政策發展能源集合後端技術在建立原子能關鍵技術方面積極推動多雷克加幹功能造影機臨床試驗"},{"start":2453.75,"end":2469.36,"text":"協助肝癌病人進行直子治療前後的肝功能評估並推動建置70mEV迴旋加速器以穩定國內核醫藥物的供需並協助我國之基礎科研、生醫產業、太空及國防科技、半導體及材料產業等發展。"},{"start":2471.121,"end":2489.626,"text":"在發展能源及核後端技術方面,運用國園院核設施清理經驗及技術,建立本土儲益技術自主能力,並配合政府能源政策轉型,開發電網韌性、反電池、風機葉片整合系統等綠能相關技術,促進能源技術本土化。"},{"start":2490.826,"end":2519.145,"text":"為接軌新世代核能技術,國研院已收集研析國際間有關SMR之相關資訊與法規﹐管制法規﹐並規劃於114年到117年進行SMR安全分析技術整備及分析驗證研究此外執行國科會此約束高溫電漿研究整合計劃目標完成國內第一套托克馬克實驗裝置建構高溫電漿控制與量測技術培育國內和融合相關之技術人才"},{"start":2519.986,"end":2541.707,"text":"接下來報告114年度河岸會及所屬預算編列情形在公務預算部分114年度本會及所屬單位預算稅入共計一億三千四百五十二萬一千元較前一年度減少八百三十萬三千元主要為核子反應器設施核子燃料及運轉檢查費收入減少所致"},{"start":2542.688,"end":2550.774,"text":"在114年度稅出部分,核安會及所屬共編列38億3878萬9千元,較113年度增加了8億9185萬6千元,其中仍是及資本維持減少1.05億元,主要簡列配合組改等一次性經費。"},{"start":2562.262,"end":2590.771,"text":"而科技及工建計劃支出則增加5.93億元主要增加70 MeV迴旋加速器建置、淨零排放、永續生物資源循環等經費。另新增編列行政法人退休公務人員退伏給付3.09億元及增列國家研究用核設施清理計劃建置自主學習網等0.95億元在核子事故緊急應變基金來源及用途部分"},{"start":2591.431,"end":2604.841,"text":"基金來源主要為緊急應變整備收入及利息收入因14年度收入為1億2192萬2千元因配合銀行利率調升故較去年增加基金專戶資息收入133萬元"},{"start":2607.623,"end":2632.389,"text":"一、一四年度基金用途預算編列九千八百五十七萬七千元較上年度減少兩百七十一萬兩千元主要檢列地方災害應變工作計劃中點片及輻射偵檢儀器汰換令增列中央災害應變計劃中衛星電話更新等經費所致接著報告行政法人國家原子能科技研究院收支編列情形"},{"start":2633.649,"end":2640.37,"text":"114年度收入編列28億3,564萬7千元較上年度簡列1億5,736萬元主要系簡列執行政府補助營運發展計劃收入支出編列27億7,511萬1千元較上年度簡列1億7,202萬8千元主要系簡列業務費及服務成本收支相抵後稅後剩餘6,053萬6千元"},{"start":2662.642,"end":2688.604,"text":"本會將依法獨立行使職權持續執行核能輻射及放射性物料安全管制工作同時精進原子能科技研發拓展相關民生應用並落實資訊公開及公眾參與以增進民生福祉及環境永續敬請各位委員對核安會的預算賄予大力的支持與協助謝謝以上報告不盡之處敬請委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2692.445,"end":2703.129,"text":"謝謝張代理主任委員口頭報告現在進行綜合詢答每位出席委員質詢6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘登記發言截止時間為上午10點30分委員如有臨時提案請於上午10點30分前提出並與本會委員葉元之質詢結束後進行臨時提案處理"},{"start":2718.255,"end":2728.102,"text":"處理提案時若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場原例不予處理首先我們請發言登記第一位洪孟楷委員質詢好主委好"},{"start":2744.397,"end":2770.954,"text":"委員好主委剛剛本席聽到您跟我們的召委也在談然後就說前任的主委他說是生涯規劃任職沒有一年就請辭那你從8月16號到現在代理也超過三個月了那依我們相關規定出缺三個月其實就要任命新任委員那到目前為止會有新的主委來還是說你徵處有沒有消息"},{"start":2771.941,"end":2796.177,"text":"我想這一部分是行政院的權責所以基本上我就是目前做好我現在的工作但是超過三個月也沒有任何人跟你講說繼續代理或者是有任何的民事暗示基本上我就是尊重行政院的決定所以那我們這樣子不知道就是說我們這個明年的預算是不是要等新任主委上任之後才來審啊"},{"start":2798.456,"end":2826.628,"text":"因為你現在三個月到了就是應該要有新的主委嘛這個是組織法相關規定啊那你現在你也說不清楚然後今天來你已經在編明年的預算已經在報告了那我們不知道說會不會我們審完之後發覺新郎新娘不是你那這樣我們也很尷尬你尷尬我也尷尬那還是說是不是我們就是建議說暫緩審查明年的預算等到說新任主委真的確認了那我們再來審查您怎麼看"},{"start":2827.821,"end":2855.889,"text":"報告主委,在我們的組織法的話報告委員啦,我不是主委啦,是Sorry,報告委員,在我們的組織法其實在這個主任委員無法執行這個相關的業務的時候就是由副主委代理,因為我原來就是副主委所以我就在你執行這個業務那既然代理執行這個業務當然就是在這個期間就要對這個業務負責所以我們依法來編列預算跟來這邊報告還是希望委員能夠多多支持"},{"start":2856.249,"end":2861.53,"text":"國際的趨勢現在COVID-19在氣候變遷因應會議也有提到有20幾個國家簽署核能三倍宣言"},{"start":2885.874,"end":2888.375,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":2907.13,"end":2928.761,"text":"代理主委也好或是之後有可能徵處的主委啊重點在於是說要用科學專業判斷來給國家參考啊所以我們想請教一下你現在對於核能的態度台灣有沒有避免核能不要核能的本錢尤其是現在2050淨零碳牌我們有一個減碳目標您怎麼看"},{"start":2930.59,"end":2954.905,"text":"報告委員剛才委員所詢問的部分其實都是能源政策的部分核安會是安全主管機關基本上我們是在只要有使用到的核能的部分我們做好我們安全管制的工作其實這一部分報告委員真的不在我們的職權範圍之內沒有之前你們有做過安全管制嗎其實我其實很不了解說我們現在民進黨政府"},{"start":2956.286,"end":2965.506,"text":"好讓又要又不要等於跟他四棒跟他八我們總統他院長來立法院備詢的時候講說現在要新核能"},{"start":2966.738,"end":2971.4,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":2987.662,"end":3003.047,"text":"所以這根本就是假命題啊如果現在沒有安全那代表過去40年核一、核二、核三都在不安全的情況下運作那代表我們所有同仁是失職那如果說現在有安全的話那就沒有這樣的一個前提啊是不是"},{"start":3005.046,"end":3022.764,"text":"根委員報告,其實任何進入延役的機組其實之前都是在運轉中的機組,所以才會有所謂的延役嘛。那剛才提到了說運轉中的機組是安全的,確實運轉中機組必須符合安全管制的相關的法規跟要求。"},{"start":3023.485,"end":3044.672,"text":"但是研議是一個機制所以它必須進行安全評估並不是它原來在運轉中它就可以自動評估所以我剛還沒有提到研議你已經先拋研議這個議題了那我們就來討論研議這個議題有人講是說要研議有專家學者報導有講說研議的話其實過程兩年三年就有可能恢復"},{"start":3045.572,"end":3067.838,"text":"但是也有傳出來說行政院副院長鄭麗君在院內會議裡面表示核能研議起碼要3年半到5年那其中一個關鍵提到的講是說還不是專業考量是選舉考量所以要避開選舉避開大選所以至少要3年到5年以專業的角度來講我請教諸位"},{"start":3068.678,"end":3078.359,"text":"我們如果說真的核能研議姑且先不論法令的部分以專業以台電現在的報告來講我們重啟核能或核能研議需要幾年"},{"start":3079.292,"end":3104.36,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在既有的核能管制法事實上我們就是要在機組運轉執照到屆期前5年提出研議當時就有考慮到在這個申請研議的期間我們必須進行相關的審查台電公司也會在這個期間完成他必須因應的這個改善或設備更換所以確實需要多少時間其實是要台電公司仔細去盤點評估"},{"start":3108.102,"end":3131.514,"text":"我知道你現在講的東西都是照本宣科你都在唸跳文啊本席現在在問的是你專業的評估跟你客觀的分析還有參考國際上來講現在美國也在重啓核電啊美國要幾年基本上我們原來在核管法裡面的規定我先請教美國要幾年我們世界先進國家所以本席一直在強調是說世界趨勢"},{"start":3133.154,"end":3152.696,"text":"我們的核電廠也不是我們首創先例我們自己去研發嘛也是買美國也是買歐美的相關機組嘛那照理講美國的相關的一些條件或說美國的一些相關的技術我們是可以參考啊那我想請教現在美國不管是拜登政府或說即將上任的川普政府他們也提到研議啊他們要五年嗎"},{"start":3155.287,"end":3169.58,"text":"有沒有去調查有沒有去研究還是你今天就是我抱著條文來然後我就鐵板一塊反正執政黨還沒有說話上面還沒有交代啊我這邊當一天和尚敲一天鐘委員不要為難我啦不然我真處可能無望"},{"start":3171.656,"end":3192.742,"text":"委員剛才提到了其實都是在運轉中提出這個研議的申請的部分那本來就有相關的法規的規定至於期程的長短就看台電公司他準備的評估報告內容但是目前以國內的狀況我們目前核一二跟核三的一號機都已進入這個除役期間而且台電公司已經提出除役申請"},{"start":3193.642,"end":3221.959,"text":"所以相關的他們的組織或者是他們的人力或者他們的維護都在變更所以這其實有它的複雜性在所以你不覺得你現在真的很前後矛盾嗎本席一開始沒有提到研議然後你自己去提研議那本席真的請教你研議我還想說是不是我們核安會在你的組長之下欸比較有前瞻的想法也看到國際的趨勢這不是我講的欸是國際的趨勢是美國確實拜登政府重啟核電廠川普政府也說要重啟而且"},{"start":3222.879,"end":3243.954,"text":"請容我提醒川普政府他過去到現在的競選主張除了說他可能是相對來講燃油燃氣他會支持以外核能他沒有放棄核能他也是大力支持再生能源其實美國或是我們先進國家也都支持而本期過去到現在一貫的主張是認為是說現在大家都在減碳"},{"start":3244.995,"end":3263.549,"text":"所以我們並不是要拿核能來去取代再生能源完全沒有衝突核能跟再生能源是並行並走並存的並且我也希望再生能源可以好好的發展我們是要用核能來取代火力發電因為現在此時此刻當核三廠的二號機稅休的時候"},{"start":3264.269,"end":3292.076,"text":"核能發電是零的時候我們全台灣是85%甚至90%以上火力全開火力發電這才是空汙這才是造成我們國人的乙肺發電的最重要的影響主委你雖然是核安會的代理主委但你也是生活在台灣的一份子每天我們生活是一樣的空氣你難道不會擔心說我們生活呼吸到這樣的空氣對我們的自己及下一代身體健康會有安全的疑慮嗎"},{"start":3294.457,"end":3318.136,"text":"所以報告立委秉持核能安全把關的專業這部分確實需要仔細的評估也需要有共識代理主委主席剛暗示我然後時間到我只最後請教卓榮泰院長有講新核能請教什麼是新核能"},{"start":3319.883,"end":3338.699,"text":"應該是指到進步型的反應器或者是所謂的小型模組化反應器或者核融核都是目前在發展中的核能技術對那我們相關的預算怎麼沒有看到對於新核能你剛所提到的研究或計畫我們在國語你也是身為原子能科技研究院的院長"},{"start":3340.711,"end":3356.169,"text":"那所以換言之卓榮泰院長也講說要新核能啊就代表是說現在核一、核二、核三用的甚至我們原本核四的機組那個都叫舊核能我姑且他不講是說這個東西跟國際專業科學上有沒有背道而馳"},{"start":3356.67,"end":3382.657,"text":"或者是說用替代概念但既然卓院長也講新核能啊那為什麼你們114年明年的預算裡面沒有任何新核能研究計畫或是你們雄心壯志好啊我們來搞一個新核能啊美國沒有日本沒有還沒有發展出來我們先來搞啊那個戴主委在跟他書面或口頭報告我們編列了多少預算或計畫多少預算"},{"start":3386.223,"end":3409.01,"text":"一千五百四十三萬我們明年的總預算三兆結果關乎我們那麼重要的能源編了一千五百萬還有七千萬是在核融合還有多少七千萬還有七千萬在核融合這部分我們是會後再補充資料給委員在書面或是口頭跟紅委員說明好嗎謝謝"},{"start":3410.779,"end":3437.729,"text":"本席真的還是善意提醒我們都是生活在台灣所以能源問題是選擇我們都要共同面對所以要用專業來去講話如果說現在執政黨真的錯誤的能源主張因為國際趨勢已經沒有反核還有其實民進黨內部我們聽說也有一些人開始不反核但如果說死抱著神主牌不放然後我們又沒有專業判斷的話我覺得這樣會非常可惜"},{"start":3438.089,"end":3461.574,"text":"台灣面臨到關鍵的抉擇點請代理主委真的把心思放在專業的提供資料跟判斷上面謝謝紅委員、紅孟楷委員的質詢那代理主委請回請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處沒有好沒有議事錄確定那再來我們請萬美玲委員質詢"},{"start":3470.942,"end":3474.704,"text":"8月16日,陳東陽主委就任不到一年,突然請辭。他有說是因為他個人的生涯規劃,然後歸建大學回去了。但是外界還是眾說紛紜,因為畢竟時間這麼短暫就離開。"},{"start":3499.878,"end":3509.263,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":3520.543,"end":3542.858,"text":"基本上我就是依照目前依法完成這個進行我們的相關的管制工作好 我想依據喔 這個剛剛當然洪孟凱委員有問過啦這個核安會的組織法喔 核安會這個5到7人主委副主委都是行政院長這個來任命喔 那目前主委已經選缺兩個月了喔那先不管您到底會被徵處啦 不過剛剛您的意思說你都沒有被問到 對嗎"},{"start":3545.683,"end":3560.941,"text":"我沒有任何的這個指示或壓力都沒有不是我說有沒有人有沒有人來詢問過您可能要不爭取您為主委對這個事情沒有任何訊息都沒有任何訊息那有去問過別人嗎我就是做好我目前的任務"},{"start":3562.52,"end":3562.66,"text":"主委主席"},{"start":3581.416,"end":3607.274,"text":"目前因為是代理主委的工作所以就是代理主委的工作所以相關的同仁我們所有的團隊都會是齊心的把該做的工作做好好齊心很重要好那麼卓院長在前幾天我看他接受這個彭博新聞的一個專訪他提到了很多那其中我把它歸類一下那意思他就是說因為現在要因應AI還有半導體的用電需求"},{"start":3607.774,"end":3630.056,"text":"所以只要台灣對於核安還有核廢料處理的方向得以大家有共識政府對於新的核能技術的態度非常開放並且還有一點很重要就是他要求要留任廚藝核電廠的員工這一些都被解讀是對核電的態度在轉彎您的認知跟看法是?"},{"start":3631.448,"end":3645.272,"text":"我想院長對於這個核能的這個說明在之前他都有親自做了說明基本上我們就是依照現在目前的規劃來執行我們的工作那個副主委啊我想我再問你就不要再轉述院長了好嗎"},{"start":3647.373,"end":3656.897,"text":"在新核能的部分其實我們是有國研院在做相關的研究主委你可能真的要針對本席的這個問題我的問題很清楚就是說以上這些談話是不是一種對於核電的態度轉彎了尤其是本席看到要留任廚藝的核電廠員工"},{"start":3668.881,"end":3676.707,"text":"這看起來也說了是要為將來核能技術的發展要做一個好的準備去因應任何的修法所以是不是這就是一種對核電態度的轉彎"},{"start":3678.786,"end":3681.087,"text":"您的認為?所以你沒有感受到有任何的轉彎或是不一樣?好,好來我們繼續那其中卓院長他有提了一個就是說"},{"start":3706.093,"end":3717.405,"text":"涉及核能安全與核廢料處理的部分是他一直在提的但我想其實我們核安會我們法定的職責跟設立的目的一直以來其實就是核能安全還有核廢料的處理那過去的40年其實也都處理得很好也沒有發生什麼事情也就是說我們看到過去在台灣運轉的核一、核二、核三"},{"start":3729.617,"end":3743.183,"text":"都在核安會的確保之下安全運轉了40年所以其實本席跟很多的人其實是相信核安會的專業的那核安會自己本身有沒有辦法保證所有核能的運用都會安全才來使用可以保證嗎都會安全才會使用"},{"start":3748.514,"end":3776.242,"text":"基本上你不要再基本上了喔是不是都會安全才會使用這點是是還是不是只要回答我是還是不是符合安全管制的話是可以使用那你就回答我一個是就好了嘛好不好我想喔我終於知道為什麼沒有人來詢問你這個有沒有爭取的問題了我覺得要再專業一點必須要再對自己有自信一點啦否則在這個位置上面你怎麼領導大家微微諾諾的什麼事情不敢回答顧左右而言他到底是上層給你壓力還是你的專業不足啊"},{"start":3778.795,"end":3801.331,"text":"那麼我想您剛剛都說到了啦就是說不管是這個核能安全核配料的處理其實是過去我們大家專業一直在做但是呢我們看到這個卓院長其實一直在質疑啊一直對核安衛的專業是沒有信心的那我想希望希望這個我們這個代理主委可能要再加油一點我不知道你會代理多久但是呢希望能夠讓這個卓院長對你稍微有信心一點"},{"start":3803.552,"end":3825.231,"text":"十月十三日核一廠首次將使用過的燃料棒從燃料池移到室外的乾儲設施,也進行熱測一個月了,目前狀況如何?熱測是有兩組要做,目前第一組的運儲已經完成了,全程我們都有去做檢查,所以第一組已經到位"},{"start":3826.111,"end":3846.341,"text":"所以也算是有一個好的開始所以我想核安委應該要更積極一點來督導我們台電來繼續推動那但是今天要提到一個我想因為現在AI的用量大增然後再加上這個淨零碳排我們看到歐美很多先進的國家都已經重返核電使用了就連我相信您一定知道1979年"},{"start":3847.922,"end":3856.204,"text":"曾經發生二號機核心融毀以及一號機小部分受損的三里島核電廠都已經預計要在2028年重啟一號機的發電甚至於連微軟公司跟三里島核電廠的母公司美國聯合能源都還簽下20年的購電協議"},{"start":3867.927,"end":3895.058,"text":"所以我想再再顯示目前不管是科技業者或者尋求這個淨零轉型都是需要這個穩定還有龐大的能源供應這是一個首選所以本期在這邊要提醒不管核電會不會演繹或者你的新核電技術要不要用目前我們的核廢料也不管低階或高階那我相信核安會都是責無旁貸的所以要來督導那核安會對於未來在這個督導的作業上面你有沒有信心"},{"start":3896.502,"end":3897.462,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":3922.7,"end":3947.387,"text":"這件事我們要持續在關注國際上的事情所以您知道對嗎?知道嗎?對,知道所以何安威在,您知道但是我看到在網站最新的消息當中完全沒有揭露這件事啊所以呢這個是刻意要做隱瞞還是你覺得這件事不太重要還是什麼原因沒有去揭露啊那這個這兩案據你了解的輻射水外洩的原因是什麼?"},{"start":3949.42,"end":3974.075,"text":"報告委員只知道它是發燃料池有發生洩漏然後流入海洋因為我們持續去追蹤它相關的資訊非常少因為它相關的資訊非常少所以我們持續都在追蹤當中但是有這件事嘛對不對那是不是應該也是要揭露我想這個主委要去考量一下那再來呢你說你有去追蹤嘛那追蹤出來的結果有什麼是可以作為我們自己將來核電廠的借鏡"},{"start":3976.156,"end":3977.878,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":3993.174,"end":4014.926,"text":"我想主委這兩案其實很重要我想這個訊息要能夠掌握然後要能夠追蹤這一定要往下做下去但是還有一個在上個會期本席就問過說目前我們國內沒有檢測碳14跟碳129的能力這件事已經說了很久了但是事實上碳14跟碳129都會對人體造成危害那核安會說今年會開始推動智慧檢測的計畫來補齊碳14跟碳129的檢測能力那目前的進度是什麼"},{"start":4022.21,"end":4034.805,"text":"我們已經在進行當中今年我們是應該是要完成碳14檢測能力的建置然後明年是進行點129檢測能力的建置那在這個空窗期當中我們要怎麼確保民眾的安全"},{"start":4036.465,"end":4064.452,"text":"基本上因為碳14跟碳129這個檢測能力的這個問題的起源是在於這日本福島之後的川沸水的排放的發生那基本上我們在源頭的部分事實上在碳14跟碳129的部分都是在...欸主委啊我真的覺得你今天的答詢你自己回去看看帶子好好檢討一下本席問你的是啊空窗期要怎麼確保民眾的安全你跟我講源頭講一大堆你到底專不專業啊你告訴我空窗期怎麼處理啊"},{"start":4066.761,"end":4091.31,"text":"因為這涉及這個這個這個核種的這個專業是不是請主任來補充一下所以主委也不了解不是那個主席這一題他完全沒辦法答他的這個強度他的強度事實上是沒有那麼強的所以事實上目前這個在排排放的部分日本日方排放的部分其實這個我沒有在問你排放嘛拜託一下好不好主委"},{"start":4091.81,"end":4099.305,"text":"現在問你是說你現在明年才要建制後年才要建制那這空窗期怎麼處理怎麼維護我們國民的安全嘛健康安全嘛"},{"start":4100.715,"end":4108.677,"text":"主席能不能讓他回答一下能怎麼做簡單的講都好總之要回答一下基本上因為最主要的影響是川這部分我們已經建立了海洋資訊的一個跨部會的平台我們持續都有定期取樣檢測所以目前東藏核動輻射標準很大"},{"start":4126.86,"end":4127.601,"text":"其他兩個元素沒有影響?"},{"start":4138.669,"end":4141.711,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":4164.049,"end":4171.854,"text":"說明解釋好不好好謝謝萬美玲委員的質詢那張代主委請回那我們下一位請林金委員謝主席有請張代主委有請張代主委"},{"start":4186.329,"end":4206.014,"text":"大主委好我想核能的議題不只是擔當發電應用如此這種短淺勢力的利益而已長期來看我們必須預視到它所帶來的是世代是否正不正義的問題我們在享受現代核能利益的發電的同時我們也應該來想說它會為後代帶來多少的負擔"},{"start":4213.556,"end":4242.266,"text":"那在李正三前大法官的學術論文當中他有說憲法不僅是要保障當代人民的權利更應向後展望保障後世代的各式權利比如環境的保護社會資源的分配以及轉型正義因為後世代也是一群人所以他們也享有最基本生而為人的權利所以接下來我今天要以後世代應如何被保障為主題來跟您做探討"},{"start":4243.046,"end":4244.647,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":4273.226,"end":4279.09,"text":"那我們必須找到一個極長時間內可以保持安全的最終處置場那否則不然我們的後來的世代他要花時間在重新這個選址那我想我們就是因為我們這一代沒有承諾他們這一個好的一個組放場那所以請教主委核廢料的處理中長期的存放我想終究是世界"},{"start":4299.604,"end":4315.603,"text":"各國都很難思索的一個課題那我們來想想看說我們核安會跟台電也好我們對於中長期的主放長我們到底有什麼樣的想法那是否同意就是我剛剛的說法我們不能給後代有過度的負擔"},{"start":4316.664,"end":4337.121,"text":"主委我想核廢料的儲存因為核廢料設施確實是一個零幣設施所以事實上在推動上面需要很多的這個技術跟社會的溝通那今年的話其實在中長期儲存我們之前有這個非核家園有說要有中期儲存的長期那針對長期儲存也要有長期的選擇"},{"start":4341.084,"end":4344.308,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":4359.006,"end":4380.203,"text":"所以就是說這件事情確實是世界各國都存在的難題嘛所以核能發電這件事情我們要看到它後面核廢料怎麼處置的問題這才是一個重點那確保核廢料儲存的安全我想是核安會必須要確保跟把關所以我們看到"},{"start":4380.623,"end":4385.004,"text":"核一廠的這個竿組設施於今年10月23號開始展開熱測試那台灣首數的這個核廢料的燃料棒也將移出這個燃料池在竿組設施興建完成後那台灣也將進入所謂的高階核廢料的竿組時代那另外我們從行政院的施政報告我們也看出說因應軍事衝突所帶來的危害對於這個核關鍵設施也將"},{"start":4408.251,"end":4433.063,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":4433.584,"end":4461.523,"text":"那基本上在軍事衝突的部分我們會跟相關的部會保持密切的這個合作也就是說在這個演練當中我們必須跟他有情資上面很迅速的掌握目前有這樣子的合作過嗎有在演練上這就納入情境演練然後再來就是說如果說這個甘煮這個煮飯場的這個過程中有發生一些意外這個部分也有做演練嗎"},{"start":4462.304,"end":4462.965,"text":"國園會已過去從事原子能科技研發所累積"},{"start":4480.468,"end":4500.472,"text":"技術為基礎轉投入成為新能源科技研發發展能源及核後端技術推廣產業應用我想是核安會報告中提到的目標之一報告中指出近期有多項綠能科技研發成果於國內外各大獎項評選中展露頭角"},{"start":4504.594,"end":4520.812,"text":"會產生核廢料的核分裂發電不符合所謂淨零碳排跟非核家園目標的價值新科技的應用當然就寫得極為迫切所以要請教主委說核安會跟國園會是否會跟其他的部會來進行跨部會的綠能科技研究"},{"start":4522.153,"end":4549.412,"text":"這部分其實就是國營院接下來的努力的方向目前他已經開始執行了所謂的智慧電網的一個研究那這部分其實也有跟台電做的一些合作所以台電已經納入他們技術在他們一些區域的那個電網上面做這個應用那另外他們也發展了這個燃料電池這個電解清還有這個資訊循環甚至生殖能方面他們通通都在進行包括風機葉片這個整合系統"},{"start":4550.933,"end":4551.273,"text":"議員主席議員主席"},{"start":4565.93,"end":4567.871,"text":"二、核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":4596.23,"end":4622.091,"text":"的三大倡議那陳如剛主委有討論到就是說我們核安會也會積極發展所謂綠能科技的研發那也會研究如何來進行智慧多元的儲能所以我要請教主委說這個COP29即將在11月22號閉幕那我們是否有跟環境部一同來關注目前的這個會議狀況那會議內容有沒有值得我們核安會要參考的政策方向"},{"start":4623.24,"end":4625.001,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":4642.927,"end":4645.45,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":4662.011,"end":4685.449,"text":"管理躍升計畫並預計在這個計畫中來推動輻射從業人員的安全文化所以據瞭解在這個計畫中我們將接觸到所謂的輻射員從業人員的安全防護的知識加強的教育所以我想就叫主委是說像民生行業也有很多的接觸輻射員不管是原子能研究或醫護人員"},{"start":4686.73,"end":4709.773,"text":"所以請問這樣安全的教育對象會優先從哪些人去推動?那會不會更普及更多的行業別?其實輻射的相關教育我們之前就都有要求只是現在我們希望建立更系統化的一個訓練的一個機制也提供這個輻射從業人員相關自主學習的一個量能那基本上我們這個計畫目前推動先以醫護人員開始"},{"start":4711.154,"end":4739.81,"text":"因為醫護人員會影響到500萬人受輻射檢測的這個相關使用的民眾的健康所以我們目前是先從第一年的計畫先從醫院的醫護人員開始好當然醫護人員跟所謂的我們原子能的研究人員當然是最優先的可是當然我想還是要請您再多設想一下我想這個教育的對象有可能在擴別其他的行業別讓我們再設想然後做擴大這樣的一個教育方的對象"},{"start":4741.27,"end":4769.697,"text":"我們會作為努力的方向謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝林一金委員的質詢那張代主委請回現在我們請林倩琦委員質詢謝謝主席那我請這個張代主委有請張代主委立院還有我們行政單位的同仁大家好"},{"start":4770.765,"end":4787.318,"text":"委員好,謝謝張代主席。本席今天還是針對大家比較關注的一個民生問題來跟您就教。也就是去年8月24號排放陸海的大家對於日本福島"},{"start":4788.678,"end":4803.467,"text":"核災含川廢水。您剛才在一些資訊裡面有提到那大家因為對食安這邊有一些疑慮所以核安會都會在海洋資訊平台裡面公布相關的資訊那你們也應該主動定期來發布漁產輻射檢測的結果讓大家來知道那你們在114年度單位預算裡面國家海域放射性物質擴散預警及安全評估應對計劃"},{"start":4816.994,"end":4837.249,"text":"這是跨部會的,荷蘭海委跟農業部都有一些合作所以去年你們也談到這個國際原能總署對於這個也邀請了中國、韓國、俄羅斯還有美國等11個國家做了調查小組然後覺得他是符合這個排放是符合國際安全標準的"},{"start":4838.67,"end":4846.798,"text":"但是臨近的國家還是對這個部分有一些疑慮所以目前你們的資訊平台的公佈雖然有這個跨部會輻射監測整合儀表板將台灣周邊的這個海域輻射的安全燈號漁獲物採樣監測及其中公佈的這個漁獲物採樣關於穿含量的資料但是裡面有一點本席這邊就教一下你們沒有名列"},{"start":4865.054,"end":4882.804,"text":"此外,我們秋刀魚的捕撈作業應該對遠航漁獲的穿寒量檢測。此外,我們秋刀魚的捕撈作業應該對遠航漁獲的穿寒量檢測。此外,我們秋刀魚的捕撈作業應該對遠航漁獲的穿寒量檢測。此外,我們秋刀魚的捕撈作業應該對遠航漁獲的穿寒量檢測。此外,我們秋刀漁獲的捕撈作業應該對遠航漁獲的穿寒量檢測。此外,我們秋刀漁獲的捕撈作業應該對遠航漁獲的穿寒量檢測。此外,我們秋刀�"},{"start":4894.73,"end":4894.77,"text":"獲得區分。"},{"start":4913.968,"end":4914.048,"text":"主席"},{"start":4941.07,"end":4954.067,"text":"檢測站是在這個經費裡面也會再多設還是就對遠洋漁獲還有洋流它的整個的一個方向的這個流域你們這個部分有在做遠洋的這個部分多設一些監測點嗎?"},{"start":4955.52,"end":4955.58,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":4971.591,"end":4994.268,"text":"海保及漁業署來做合作,所以這部分也要看他們的時機。但是呢,我們自己其實除了這107點,其實我們也有努力的,譬如說就是在學研單位他們有出船去到海域的部分的話,我們現在也努力請他們也幫我們做一些取樣,但是在漁獲物的部分應該還是要以漁業署來"},{"start":4997.452,"end":5011.111,"text":"本席在這邊做一個提醒本席比較關心漁洋漁獲的這個區塊所以請你們注意一下再跟這個漁業署就以你們的專業然後洋流應該是你們的專業吧所以洋流的這個流向應該是你們可以了解的"},{"start":5011.331,"end":5035.381,"text":"要不然你們可能要跟國研院或海委會對於整個洋流的一個走向多做一些瞭解然後再考慮是不是增設一些點這是本席這邊的一個建議有洋的部分你們應該多注意一下我們會納入我們的平台討論會議好的謝謝那也記得給本席一個報告就是說你們討論了之後那對於本席這個建議你們是什麼一個做法"},{"start":5036.26,"end":5040.624,"text":"當然會裡面一直有跟本席談到藍瑜儲存廠放射性廢棄物的管理當然會裡面有一些比較專業的講法不過本席在這邊還是要就所看到的一些細節做一些提醒目前有許多廢料桶的桶身研究鏽蝕也扭曲變形"},{"start":5059.64,"end":5078.065,"text":"台電公司在儲藏場執行的三級品管制也不太周延好像跟規範的意思有點不符所以在96年到100年間有許多廢棄桶封存10年經抽查在上層的部分有鏽蝕、吊漆、桶蓋膨脹"},{"start":5079.905,"end":5104.574,"text":"累積油脂等現象這個部分呢可能是不是可以請你們在跨部會也再去做一些以你們專業做一些提醒雖然你們一直跟本席說可能有些地方的輻射會比這個藍雨來的高但是畢竟這個是我們所看到的物質性上的一個變化那所以你們是不是可以透過這個跨部會的平台就這個部分也去做一個提醒跟處理呢"},{"start":5105.886,"end":5131.706,"text":"報告委員剛才看到的應該都是屬於之前還沒有重新檢診的舊桶的部分那目前事實上核安會已經要求台電公司進行改善所以這部分都重新檢診裝桶所以沒有現在這樣子的問題那我們也在持續做相關的這個檢查跟視察好的謝謝那你是不是把相關報告給本席知道一下你們的期程然後跟目前的整體的一個狀況"},{"start":5133.407,"end":5154.74,"text":"最後就是核廢料管制的業務追蹤。在今年的6月,你們低放射性的廢棄桶有大概23萬桶。台電對於長子的選址,我想很多人也提過這個問題。所以本席想請問主委在113年到116年的放射性廢棄物安全管制與"},{"start":5156.841,"end":5183.61,"text":"審驗技術發展的計劃明確要辦理低放射性廢棄物的處理與儲存安全管制技術的研發您有這三項細部計劃本席想要了解目前的進度另外是不是可以協助台電低放射性廢棄物的候選場址的選址及集中式儲存應變方案之執行我想這很多人都關心過不知道主委代理主委您這邊"},{"start":5184.87,"end":5205.356,"text":"對於這個事情的回應。針對協助台電地方身份信用選址之場址及其中處事應變方案其實相關的一些準則我們都有已經建置提供給台電公司做他選址的一些的參據那之後他們也要提出評估報告那至於這個前面的這三項的研究技術的話其實是"},{"start":5206.696,"end":5220.348,"text":"因該是說我們持續在滾動精進,針對我們安全技術去收集這個國外相關的一個技術來解釋我們目前技術的這個精進的這個方向那這部份細節是不是我們在補充給委員想要了解的是說按那一個比較具體的處理跟可能的地點"},{"start":5229.796,"end":5243.9,"text":"最後一個就是我們能源的配品這邊跟您請教一下因為太陽光電雖然容量逐年上升可是離我們的目標值也有點距離風場也是海事工程還有船舶調度的作業都趕不上變化我們在2025年到2050年綠能要總發電量兩成逾六成的一個政策目標目前好像都還是有很大的差距"},{"start":5256.024,"end":5279.899,"text":"所以在去年聯合國的COP28會議開完了之後本席還是要問您一下核能重啟的運轉可能性然後如果哪一天變化了你們可以協助台電這個區塊嗎我說政策變化的話所以第一個部分是重啟的可能性那第二個部分是協助運轉的可行性"},{"start":5282.322,"end":5306.648,"text":"報告委員那針對這部分能源政策真的不是在核安會的權責範圍之內不過我相信這一陣子不論是院長或部長都針對這個部分都有做過一些回應基本的主要的原則就是在核安全保核費能夠處理還有社會有共識的前提之下來進行這個相關的討論那這部分的話那核安會的話作為安全管制機關的話我們會依照這個"},{"start":5307.768,"end":5328.394,"text":"政策需求,我們會配合,畢竟核安會也是政府的一環,所以我們會做好我們的安全管制工作。好的,謝謝。那我就請我們更積極的來處事,好嗎?好,謝謝。好,謝謝委員。好,謝謝林倩琪委員的質詢。那也請張代主委請回。好,那再來我們請張雅玲委員質詢。OK,好,謝謝。"},{"start":5341.866,"end":5342.367,"text":"有請代理主委"},{"start":5349.83,"end":5374.401,"text":"委員好主委好我想大家都非常關切就是核一廠在12月3號已經開始了室內乾儲存的乾儲場的熱測試那也預計今年底就會完成那如果測試完成之後呢臺電就會將相關的資料提供給核安會來申請運轉那順利通過的話我們的核一廠的燃料棒就可以開始採用乾式儲存那目前呢各核驗場的室外乾儲場除了"},{"start":5375.862,"end":5392.39,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金�"},{"start":5403.461,"end":5417.763,"text":"報告委員那個核一二廠的室內乾儲目前台電公司統一一個標目前正在公告當中等到公告收集廠家意見後他們就會正式進行招標作業"},{"start":5418.874,"end":5443.531,"text":"嗯,我想問一下,就是因為我知道之前核一啊,它是因為金額嘛,金額太低,所以大家不太願意來標嘛,那我想我們知道說,那你們覺得核一、核二現在的金額目前,大家是會有意願來標的嗎?呃,報告委員,這部分因為涉及商務,不是核安徽跟...我說你們,你們關於,呃,你們接觸,你們接觸,應該之前有先了解過嘛,大家,不然你再開一個標,可能還是會留標啊。"},{"start":5446.469,"end":5467.198,"text":"報告委員,台電公司它其實就是經有合一廠招標不順的經驗,那他們有提高價金,但是至於這個部分,因為是屬於涉及台電公司的那個商務合約,所以我們就沒有…好,沒關係,好,了解了。那剛剛其實也有委員來了解就是說有關於到底我們這個"},{"start":5468.839,"end":5470.7,"text":"核廢選址辦公室"},{"start":5483.072,"end":5483.372,"text":"需經濟部推動?"},{"start":5505.69,"end":5513.13,"text":"所以也就是說我們負責管制他們負責推動所以剛才說成立這個核廢專案辦公室是屬於經濟部推動的一環"},{"start":5514.951,"end":5536.803,"text":"對,但我想了解就是說第一放的最終處置場設置條例法規的主管機關是核安會嘛,主辦是經濟部,但如果未來由經濟部核廢辦公室進行高放的最終處置設置條例的時候,主委,請問主委,就是核安會在這邊還是就是負責這個安全管制的這個部分對嗎?"},{"start":5537.924,"end":5539.046,"text":"關於核安的部分"},{"start":5553.467,"end":5570.354,"text":"我們現在其實都有在學校進行實兵演習那是有一天如果不幸發生核子事故的時候也會責定避難收容處所鄰近學校作為安置學校那我想了解就是在我們進行核電廠除役的時候甚至是未來進行最終處置場的選址的過程中"},{"start":5570.794,"end":5571.134,"text":"獲得避難能力"},{"start":5587.837,"end":5604.924,"text":"及面對事故的能力。所以我想要了解在CRC裡面就是國際兒童人權公約裡面其實有講到兒童有權利參與各個共事務所以我想了解我們目前是不是在這些教材裡面在這些溝通裡面有沒有納入兒童的意見"},{"start":5606.124,"end":5607.826,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":5624.744,"end":5626.486,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":5654.104,"end":5657.367,"text":"這部分我們來研議這部分給我們三個月的時間因為這部分我們肯定也要諮詢一些專家的意見"},{"start":5671.633,"end":5675.015,"text":"我統計了109年到113年總共57個場次高中以下只有占其中的12場那我想要問我們是不是還有可能"},{"start":5702.071,"end":5729.146,"text":"讓學校有更多的場次呢?是因為為什麼只有12場?是因為大家來申請的很少?還是大家不知道這個訊息?還是大家來了覺得聽不太懂?到底是哪個原因?目前我們相關的資訊都有在網路上公開有需要都可以來申請那高中的場次這邊比較少的部分我相信因為可能也有很多環境的因素因為其實越到"},{"start":5730.649,"end":5754.771,"text":"閱到高中其實大家的升學壓力也很大但是這部分我們在這個資訊推廣上面我們會去努力跟學校這個去這個做相關的這個宣導我想因為這個活動宗旨這個活動宗旨就是來推廣原子能科普教育可是這個次數四年下來只有12場等於一年平均只有三場一年大概就只有"},{"start":5755.452,"end":5771.988,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":5772.325,"end":5795.524,"text":"我們在我們的科普教育的部分對科普教育的部分我們可不可以一樣三個月之內因為我想這跟何少益建議是不是可以合併給我一個報告好不好好是那我們怎麼樣來積極的推廣好不好讓更多人了解那再來就是說我想要問主委代理主委就是說我們當時為什麼核研所要轉型成國研院用一個行政法人的身份這個原因是什麼"},{"start":5797.406,"end":5822.347,"text":"因為在主改的時候其實是把這個原能會改成三級的核安會的時候就希望成立一個獨立的安全管制的機關那事實上國研院是希望把它轉成法人的話那依照國外的經驗事實上這會讓國研院有更多的彈性不管他在禁用人力或者他們在研究的計劃的方面都可以有更多的彈性來發展他這個研究的量能"},{"start":5822.907,"end":5837.743,"text":"好,我想,但是我想我們希望,我們剛剛講了嘛,希望是可以提升研究量的嘛,但是主委可以看到我們從109年到現在我們扣除112年,如果我們扣除承接台電4年期計劃簽約金3.9億的話,我們112年的簽約金只剩下6.7億"},{"start":5843.489,"end":5865.74,"text":"所以大概其實是沒有我們轉型成國運院之後我們的研究量似乎也沒有提高不管是從簽約金來看或是從寄轉寄服的收入都是逐漸下滑的甚至113年的平均收入可能都不會到112年那這個似乎沒有達到我們當時轉成行政法人上面應該要有的一個業務成果啦這部分我們可以怎麼樣改善嗎"},{"start":5868.39,"end":5894.46,"text":"國運院轉型後,因為它有一些技術量能的研發跟各個部會的合作的部分我是不是請院長來做一個說明報告委員,因為這個1、2年通常我們接一個計畫大概都兩年前有個前置期才能接到所以這個1、2年看起來簽約金是前一兩年就談的,自籌經費聽不太清楚"},{"start":5896.641,"end":5922.854,"text":"所以我是說我們的經費112年這個事實上降下來是由於是前一兩年的因素那我們法人化以後真正的績效會到114年開始會逐漸的呈現自籌經費應該會有某種程度的上漲依照我們的規劃目前我們因為運轉就是經營上營運上有更大的彈性用人也有更多的選擇但是"},{"start":5924.415,"end":5952.181,"text":"因為在法人化以後我們人數因為離退的關係或者請求轉到其他單位安置的關係所以人數大概降了大概兩成所以人力方面也比較不足跟先前的但我們今年人力已經慢慢補回來從今年開始那114年開始自籌經費我們期待應該會有某種程度的一個上揚因為12年應該是谷底跟委員做一個報告"},{"start":5953.433,"end":5979.979,"text":"所以你的意思是說我們在114年就可以看到我們不管是在簽約金或是寄轉寄服收入都可以超越我們1、2年跟1、3年的水準了是嗎?是是我們是這樣的努力在爭取努力在爭取好那我們之後我們就是來繼續監督謝謝謝謝委員謝謝張雅琳委員的質詢那我們代主委也請回下一位柯志恩委員質詢"},{"start":5986.25,"end":5991.152,"text":"核三廠在一號季在今年七月大概就停止運轉那二號季是明年五月就停機那我想請問這兩部機組是否已經拿到核安會的廚藝許可了目前還沒有因為拿到廚藝許可的話最主要兩個機關的審查就是"},{"start":6012.199,"end":6013.741,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":6035.402,"end":6040.665,"text":"而且我覺得張峰代理主委你應該對這個案件是非常的了解因為你那時候就是屬於我們核能管制處的處長所以從頭到尾你應該都知道所以目前為止已經分為四區五十五公頃的部分已經開始要來做這樣的一個處理那我第一個先請問你這個安全的評估報告目前來說你看1111年5月3號然後召開第一次審查會議"},{"start":6063.499,"end":6065.504,"text":"三月三號,隔年的三月三號就已經完成了,所以你同一台電的報告只花了十個月的時間,這個安全沒有任何的問題嗎?"},{"start":6073.385,"end":6075.788,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":6094.807,"end":6097.069,"text":"台電在核三廠內做光電的一個工程是不是要經過環評?他們有經過這個詢問這個相關的管制機關"},{"start":6118.479,"end":6122.142,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":6135.115,"end":6138.136,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":6162.004,"end":6162.705,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":6183.541,"end":6187.185,"text":"這當然需要環評我告訴你因為我們的核三廠是在三坡地所以據了解為什麼現在大家急著都要趕快來去蓋因為如果你要急著蓋光電廠因為你必須要配合如果你現在不蓋的話你馬上要經過環評啊你環評在三坡地你是完全沒有辦法的啊"},{"start":6204.522,"end":6205.122,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":6235.423,"end":6236.444,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":6255.307,"end":6260.151,"text":"回覆4月27號6天時間你就可以讓他開工6天時間你就馬上核准了還有呢還有一個規定他是告訴你說這樣的一個計劃你必須要在111年到113年要辦理此案如果你沒有辦法在這個時間點之內辦完了之後呢要提供新的期程規劃那我要告訴主委"},{"start":6280.365,"end":6282.266,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":6298.012,"end":6299.193,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":6314.349,"end":6329.256,"text":"你們為什麼可以放水?你剛剛信誓旦旦告訴我你們現在是完全用安全其他都推給能源其他都推給其他部會可是光是在安全的部分你們都沒有辦法做好把關嗎?事實擺在這個地方啊這就是我們所看到的啊那我請問你113年12月號才開工他需不需要提出新的規範照你們的規範裡面你是需要提出來的他們有嗎?他們有嗎?"},{"start":6346.021,"end":6371.9,"text":"我們請核安安回應誰能夠回答我這個問題首先剛才委員說說我們收到以後6個天就同意其實在之前事實上我們都有進行審查那這個函的話只是針對他影響評估報告之後續管制事項做的說明那你就把你那些審查部分拿給我你們這個發函之後你馬上就給我還有你如何解釋地面型的太陽光墊的這個部分"},{"start":6372.657,"end":6375.098,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":6396.443,"end":6404.028,"text":"三個月之內要補足目前為止我都不曉得是不是我們的左院長已經忘記這個單位讓大家已經變成非常的邊緣化然後信誓旦旦告訴我們我們要來做這樣很多的安全更何況我要問我們的預算當中有關於儲存這個所謂第三期的這個中期儲存場的部分裡面"},{"start":6416.417,"end":6419.858,"text":"目前為止沒有任何的一個訊息然後呢包括核安會還編了兩千多萬連台電都編了兩千多萬但是呢我為大家報區的緣故是什麼你們每一次發函請這個非核家園推動小組來開會的時候他們對你們的態度也一點都不積極然後呢每次給你們的回覆都一副好像事不關己的樣子可是在審預算的時候在編預算的時候"},{"start":6444.466,"end":6449.692,"text":"有關於中期儲存的這樣子的一個部分你們還是變了兩千多萬台電也變了兩千多萬可是給我們的結果還是沒有一個結果所以你覺得我們這個預算要怎麼給呢?我們這個預算該怎麼給呢?這才是我們今天很大的一個問題不是嗎?"},{"start":6460.953,"end":6463.074,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":6480.786,"end":6491.115,"text":"所以我說說今天雖然在這邊質詢但是也為你們感到有一些的委屈因為你們所發出去的東西沒人鳥這件事情這個東西怎麼樣來處理這東西怎麼樣來處理然後最重要的是這個部分本席因為時間到了本席絕對會在這個預算的過程當中要求這個小組好好的這個非核推動小組裡面來跟我們講個明白否則這個預算"},{"start":6507.329,"end":6516.272,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核"},{"start":6545.577,"end":6548.4,"text":"謝謝主席,有請核安會張代主委備詢。"},{"start":6555.135,"end":6581.056,"text":"會員好是剛剛都已經有詢問過您未來的動向了我就不多問了也希望我們一起來努力做核能安全的守護那我想世界各國都在持續的演進各國為了達成淨零碳排或者低碳的能源的目標還有當然還有發展我們的科技跟AI都將核電廠重啟或研議來作為這個策略"},{"start":6582.318,"end":6597.75,"text":"已經列出來我相信你們應該都看過應該要看到爛了啦美國、日本、韓國、英國、法國甚至連三里島核電廠2028都要重啟主委您怎麼看待現在全球吹起的強烈反核潮反回核電潮"},{"start":6602.596,"end":6627.041,"text":"我想基本上國際每個國家都會針對自己的能源需求來做規劃我國也是針對我們自己的能源需求我們自己的能源需求就是需要有穩定的能源其實和台灣鄰近國情相似的韓國跟日本都在改變尤其我們現在又說台灣是科技世界的中心我們現在內閣又說是AI內閣結果全世界的AI公司科技大廠都在開始擁抱核電"},{"start":6627.921,"end":6631.684,"text":"亞馬遜公佈要採用核電的計劃已經在採購Google也宣布直接要建造7座核反應爐微軟是直接預購了甚至呢這個2028要重啟的山梨島核電廠他直接已經要付錢了結果呢我就想請教"},{"start":6646.414,"end":6661.124,"text":"主委這個怎麼看待這個科技、國際都是在返回核電賴政府卻視而不見您說台灣要以我們自己的情況來判斷是怎麼樣核能一到了台灣就不能作為選項嗎?核能不是一個安全的選擇嗎?"},{"start":6663.356,"end":6665.377,"text":"所以你們不用管有沒有核能啦?是不是這樣?"},{"start":6680.66,"end":6695.437,"text":"核能使不使用不是我們的權責。哦,然後呢,就那這樣如果我們不用核能你們是不是整個會就可以撤掉了?我們全部預算砍掉啦,你非核家園還在啊,就不用了嘛,對不對?因為你不參與決策嘛,也不提供建議,你們要不要提供研究建議?"},{"start":6697.003,"end":6724.551,"text":"對於我們的這個業務的部分我們已經從運轉的管制逐漸隨著基礎的狀況轉到廚藝的相關管制而且核安會的事實上我們的業務核電廠的管制是其中的一部分我們還有其他所有的其他輻射防護啊這些的管制那核電廠的研議你們會不會提出研究建議會不會提供評估到時候要評估到底能不能研議是不是你們也會有專員在處理對吧這是你們處理的吧"},{"start":6726.374,"end":6742.351,"text":"這個是不是使用這個可行性的部分不是屬於我們的權責那如果到時候真的要做研議評估如果政府有需要我們提出技術意見的時候我們會配合執行那現在是不是只差在修法我們現在的研議的部分研議的部分現在是不是只差在修法"},{"start":6744.099,"end":6761.679,"text":"目前這個有多位立委有提出修法建議我們尊重委員的提案權那現在既沒有修法我們要往這個這個停止核電的情況要非核家園然後我們又要編這些預算那核安會明年度的預算跟工作目標有沒有要調整啊"},{"start":6762.435,"end":6788.758,"text":"我們並沒有編列修法的預算我們編列的是我們廚藝相關的管制預算還有這個核三廠二號均運轉中安全的管制的運轉那現在你廚藝許可也還沒發下來啊你編那麼多預算幹嘛核三的廚藝許可是因為我們也要等到環境部的那邊審查結束之後我們要一併考慮才會核發廚藝許可那我們的廚藝計畫的部分我們已經執行完成我們的作業我想不管怎麼樣啦也希望同仁要提早受訓學習相關廚藝的知識啦"},{"start":6790.439,"end":6809.892,"text":"這個許可還有未來的這些建設都應該要儘早做好準備那我再來還要請教一下主委這個卓魁這個否認核電是緊急能源的選項但是我們賴新澤總統去台灣大學演講的時候台灣大學的時候演講說面對學生的提問"},{"start":6813.534,"end":6842.333,"text":"賴清德當時的回應是相關單位正研議如何將核電作為暫時備用能源喔這個是我們賴清德總統所說的請教主委賴清德總統將核電作為暫時備用能源的說法安不安全可行性高不高我想就誠如剛才立委所說其實這是一個有要如何去研究那我相信經濟部、台電公司他們有做相關的評估所以目前才會有這個希望有三個前提之下再來討論"},{"start":6844.417,"end":6846.743,"text":"全世界沒有一個核電廠"},{"start":6848.317,"end":6876.952,"text":"是在戰爭中要去運作的這根本就是反過來的一個策略我們平常應該是反而應該讓核電來幫我們穩定的發電不要用廢發電用愛發電結果我們的總統竟然發表的是一個違反全世界核能安全的評論您覺得暫時使用核電來作為備用能源安全嗎這核安會可以說話了吧不要再踢給台電了吧不要再踢給總統了吧這顆球你要接下來了吧"},{"start":6879.281,"end":6899.779,"text":"我想基本上這個如果在針對運轉中的核能電廠的話國際上有一個共識就是不主動攻擊核能電廠這在烏鴉戰爭的時候其實有這樣子的一個情形大家都可以這個注意到我們平常都不相信敵人啊我們要料敵從寬啊民進黨也說要抗中保台啊怎麼我們現在就相信敵人了呢"},{"start":6901.642,"end":6915.734,"text":"我只是舉烏鴉戰爭的一個經驗我想我們還是要理性看待好不好不要隨著你的思緒隨著你自己的意識形態轉彎尤其我們核安會應該是要以科學為依據的"},{"start":6916.955,"end":6934.018,"text":"我想賴清德總統自己現在也鬆動了說不排除新核能也要開發多元的能源想請教核安會現在SMR小型核反應的廠研發的資源是不是有增加"},{"start":6935.194,"end":6960.996,"text":"目前我們在國園院是有編列這個預算從100萬增加到1543萬那我們再來看還有什麼呢為什麼你們自己願意增加全世界都在做SMR所以這個我們再來看都太多資料了我想你們全部都有了那我們再來看核融合我們現在核融合有國家實驗研究院還有高速研究中心國園院都有在編列"},{"start":6963.178,"end":6968.585,"text":"國科會有在編列這個我們現在的這個計畫的整體的研發預算是不是也有增加"},{"start":6969.667,"end":6994.125,"text":"我們在核融核的部分我們在接下來兩年我們是編了7000萬的不只7000萬啦國務院114到116年還要編列9000萬來研發核融核嘛不是要非核家園嗎所以不要再拿這些關鍵詞來呼嚨大家啦明明我們就是要進入新的時代卓院長也暗示了"},{"start":6995.205,"end":7023.012,"text":"賴總統也暗示了合作董事長也暗示了大家都在暗示核安會要擁抱新核能結果呢您現在在這裡我們一問到核能的問題一問到國際的趨勢就說那是別人的事那是別的國家別的公司這是別的單位台電我想真的是很希望核安會要發出真誠內心的建議不只是童子賢啦"},{"start":7023.792,"end":7044.353,"text":"台達電的創辦人跟電力最有關的他也說啊台灣非用核電不可啊錯誤的決定要趕快承認錯誤所以我今天只希望告訴您說賴總統卓院長都鬆口可以接受新核能了齁主委你要不要率先接下新核家園"},{"start":7048.122,"end":7069.734,"text":"新核家園省主牌我幫你做好你願不願意出列我們來接下來嘛大家暗示你很辛苦啊民事可以嗎報告立委我們在國語委員已經做相關的研究的部分對但是核安會不負責政策的決定我們目前做的是研究發展"},{"start":7070.27,"end":7098.419,"text":"那我們下次就新核安全家園是不是就可以接下可以吧考慮看看後面有人點頭了好沒有關係我們下次再做再做一個審主辦因為我時間用完了所以我想啦從卓院長到賴總統都暗示了新核能是可以考慮的希望核安會在相關的預算人員還有研發計劃的研究上面持續的用理性來看待好不好可以嗎"},{"start":7099.379,"end":7099.6,"text":"陳秀寶委員質詢"},{"start":7129.885,"end":7133.128,"text":"最近關於我們核一的熱測室的這個作業啟動並且會開始移出燃料棒相關這個動態民眾都十分的關心那核一廠呢室外的乾式儲存廠之前是因為新北市政府一直都沒有核可這個水保的計劃"},{"start":7149.262,"end":7154.004,"text":"導致嚴當11年無法使用後來是因為台電在官司上有勝訴所以新北市政府就因此來核准並且在10月15號取得水保計劃完工證明之後呢開始來執行熱測室的作業那台電這個熱測室作業預計辦兩個月之後的時間之後就大概到12月15號會議務管法的第18條向核安會來申請運轉執照那我這邊想請教主委"},{"start":7177.515,"end":7203.906,"text":"台電提出申請後核安會為我們這邊來審查運轉執照需要多久的時間?基本上我們是定3個月但不包含台電公司他答覆的狀況所以基本上如果是資料是齊備的話是3個月的時間那運轉執照之前有說會先發給20年那以現在的規劃還是一樣只要他提出申請你們核可之後就是規劃20年的時間嗎?對目前看起來台電是要申請20年"},{"start":7205.273,"end":7232.517,"text":"那有沒有預計說台電他在什麼時候必須要完成室外乾除這個燃料棒的移轉這部分就看他到時候提出他的這個申請的時候他的整個計畫的規劃其實民眾真的都非常的關心就是關於這些核安的議題目前合一的室外乾除廠是不夠容納所有的這些用過的燃料棒那麼室內的乾除的這個設置進度請問現在是如何"},{"start":7233.587,"end":7247.664,"text":"目前還在招標作業當中還在招標作業當中對因為之前有一些不順就是剛才也有委員提到就是好像是他們在招標的價金的部分太低所以他們做了一些調整目前這個核一二廠都仍然在招標的作業當中調整過後現在還在招標當中就對了齁"},{"start":7249.847,"end":7274.686,"text":"其實本席這邊要提醒核安會其實核一的這個移轉燃料棒是民眾都非常關心的一個議題我已經重複的強調很多次所以我這邊要請核安會這邊定時的揭露目前的進度以及相關安全需知讓民眾可以放心就是說所有的狀況都是在我們核安會的掌握裡面那我們可以隨時的掌握進度隨時的了解這個進度是如何讓民眾可以知道是的"},{"start":7276.767,"end":7280.308,"text":"接下來我想請教主委新聞報導有說目前我們核四廠的這個前廠長有公開表示只要燃料還有空間可以存放用過的燃料棒核一廠是可以繼續沿用意思也就是說在台電移轉所有的燃料棒到乾式儲存廠之後呢核一廠是可以再度使用主委你覺得這可能嗎這是安全的嗎這樣的說法是有負責任的嗎"},{"start":7304.017,"end":7330.313,"text":"第一個我想第一個就是要有法律依據然後另外一個其實核一廠他已經取得廚藝許可他也進行了部分設備的一個拆除的工作那事實上他進入廚藝期間他的整個組織架構都會隨著廚藝工作的需求來做改變所以無論是在這個拆除的進度還有在這個人力還有設備維護方面都做了一些更改所以不是像所說的這麼簡單就是把用過燃料移出他就可以運轉"},{"start":7330.993,"end":7338.998,"text":"所以他這樣的說法是不安全的並不是說把空間挪出來之後那個所有的就可以繼續運轉因為已經做了不一樣的變更了其實核一廠從67年開始商轉一號機、二號機分別在107年及108年就有廚藝那依照目前核管法相關的規定進入廚藝階段的核能廠代表它的核子反應器是永久的停止運轉"},{"start":7355.307,"end":7370.548,"text":"是沒有再次啟動的空間所以說如果核電廠他是真的要研議其實依法他還要提交許多相關安全的分析及報告還要經過一些相關的審查的程序不可能是說說研用就研用是吧是"},{"start":7372.35,"end":7375.212,"text":"本席也希望說核安會這邊你們應該嚴正的澄清我們不是民眾可能會被誤導這樣子的言論就是說想演繹就演繹也不能讓這樣子的言論來讓民眾覺得恐慌"},{"start":7388.458,"end":7410.255,"text":"這個非官政治最重要的是安全主要是以安全的角度來考量以你們核安會的專業來看待來管理相關的這些事宜不能冒任何的風險所以這個部分我希望核安會你們也要適度的提出該澄清的言論讓民眾可以安心說因為這樣是是而非的這樣的言論是會讓民眾覺得很焦慮的是"},{"start":7412.506,"end":7440.242,"text":"那所以說你們可以提出一些對於這些言論有所澄清的一些聲明在你們的一些公告或者網站上嗎我們會來適度檢視如何來做一個澄清不會引起另外其他的誤會好的那接下來我請教主委請問您覺得即便我國未來不再興建或發展核能我們是不是應該還是要掌握國際間未來核能的技術跟發展的狀況您覺得呢"},{"start":7442.102,"end":7470.567,"text":"是的我想作為這個管制機關我們確實要這個持續掌握國際間相關發展的一個趨勢其實一直以來新核能的技術的發展在國際間關心現在都非常關心小型的核反應爐就是SMR的這個進度那本席其實也有在呼籲說核安會你們要有一定程度的了解相關的技術及學術上的這樣的精進其實核能安全的掌握我們相關的訊息是一定要有了解的主委您覺得"},{"start":7471.947,"end":7497.581,"text":"對其實在核能這個掌握的部分事實上我們有請國研院對於相關的議題他們都要去掌握這個新的技術因為我們自己有沒有新建或發展核能是我們的選擇但是在技術上在學術上的了解是我們必須具備的那台灣不能自我排除在國際技術之外這跟我們是不是發展核能是沒有相關的就如同卓院長說的台灣不應該跟國際技術脫節"},{"start":7500.583,"end":7516.314,"text":"所以本席這邊也要告訴核安會核安會是我國核能安全技術及防護最高的機關希望核安會這邊可以掌握相關的訊息與技術所以我這邊要請教主委目前核安會或是核研所有沒有投入相關的預算來進行相關研究"},{"start":7519.016,"end":7521.198,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":7534.093,"end":7535.775,"text":"國際間各國發展技術的收集訊息非常重要我們必須了解我們周邊的國家哪一些國家他們的動態這是對我們自己最基本的安全防護保護"},{"start":7549.554,"end":7563.892,"text":"因為說未來不再興建或發展核能自我排除在國際的這個技術之外我們必須要與時俊進我相信主委您有這樣的認知那我相信我們核研所這邊也對相關的訊息有所掌握這才能跟得上國際技術的這個脈動"},{"start":7566.255,"end":7594.687,"text":"接下來我想請教關於科普教育的問題核安會這幾年都有陸續辦理科普教育來推廣這些核能科普的知識核能科技研發的成果及相關安全管制的業務本席是非常樂見也非常支持科普教育的推廣也覺得應該要多多益善但是本席看到核安會辦理的相關的科普活動的這些場次的人次發現有一年辦在本席的選區和美高中的人次是非常非常的少"},{"start":7595.447,"end":7599.011,"text":"在109年的這一場是8月22到8月23號其實他是週末那其實如果你們沒有做適度的一些宣傳在週末應該比較不會有人主動要去學校裡面參加活動所以這個舉辦的這個場地舉辦的這個場所的選擇非常的重要本期覺得說你們"},{"start":7615.126,"end":7620.527,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核"},{"start":7638.731,"end":7647.456,"text":"場所可以再評估因為你們要爭取到你們來辦一場非常非常的不容易那如果以這樣子的人次來講對這樣子相關的資源資訊是有點可惜的所以這個部分希望說你們可以對你們選擇的這個場址要經過審慎的評估那再來我也希望說你們可以多辦理這相關的場次因為我覺得一年兩場是真的有點少"},{"start":7660.802,"end":7662.903,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":7678.714,"end":7697.23,"text":"正對委員建議我們在這個辦理長子的部分這個能夠評估在人流比較多的地方我們會來繼續努力來強化那其實另外的話跟委員報告一下我們其實除了我們自辦的這個科普教育的話我們現在也有機局跟各部會他們如果有做相關的科普的這個相關的宣導我們都會也會加入來協辦"},{"start":7698.308,"end":7713.278,"text":"也希望說場次可以再增加啦這個部分好好努力好謝謝謝謝主委謝謝主席好謝謝陳秀寶委員的質詢張代主委請回再我們請郭育晴委員質詢郭育晴委員質詢完我們休息好謝謝主席有請這個張代理主委有請張代理主委"},{"start":7731.599,"end":7755.914,"text":"委員好代理主委早安這個國民黨的羅志強委員他說這個核電研議最大的阻礙是核安會主張研議需要5年前申請他有這樣子的一個言論那我想這個規定會這樣定一定是有他的安全性的一個考量那我個人是比較不同意這樣的說法啦不曉得代理主委您怎麼看"},{"start":7757.086,"end":7775.632,"text":"我們會定這五年的話其實也有參考國際上的做法確實是以我們安全管制在審核的需求以及電廠做相關強化的需求來定這五年是好我就舉以下幾個例子第一個我想要請教的就是這個核電廠其實都會定期來做這個檢查跟維修"},{"start":7776.072,"end":7786.526,"text":"但是畢竟它其實還是有一些零件是無法修復也無法更換或者是檢查不出老化那比方說像地下的消防管線、電纜還有這個圍組體等等所以這個在設計的時候其實當初可能沒有把所謂的我們要更換或者我們要維修這個部分考量進去"},{"start":7794.996,"end":7817.822,"text":"第二、當年我們在核發運轉執照的時候有沒有考慮過現在我們的天氣其實已經開始做不一樣的一個改變了這是全球性的在極端氣候的一個狀況我們怎麼因應另外還有剛剛其實業務委員提到的暫時如果遇到了軍事恐攻的部分的話我們應該怎麼因應那我想剛剛其實這個代理主委你有提到"},{"start":7819.262,"end":7821.403,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":7845.968,"end":7846.248,"text":"二、國際淨零趨勢綠能"},{"start":7863.695,"end":7880.717,"text":"但是問題是我們的核三廠的兩部反應器其實都不是歐盟認定的綠能的機型這也是要考慮到裡頭那第五點我相信是最重要的一點就是沒有任何一個縣市願意接受核廢料"},{"start":7882.599,"end":7900.99,"text":"張代理主委我剛剛所念的這些是不是都是很重要的考量是的跟立委報告其實核電廠從建廠之初當然就必須針對天然災害做一些評估但是事實上天然災害隨著時間會有一些變化所以基本上電廠在運轉期間它都要滾動減潮"},{"start":7903.772,"end":7930.794,"text":"所以一段時間都要就像剛才提到的地震的部分那我想很多人都知道事實上臺電公司有這個委託國證中心做了這個一些地震的評估那目前還在做這個相關風險評估的部分那另外針對地下管系的部分確實也純如這個立委剛剛提到這也是一個重要的一環所以在這部分他運轉期間都要建立相關的檢測方案甚至把部分的消防水管來做一個地上化的一個工作對"},{"start":7931.834,"end":7956.899,"text":"那針對這個戰爭的部分因為剛才沒有時間講完我再補充一下其實針對戰爭的部分我們也在輔導之後針對他們的這個戰爭部分的強化也就是大範圍的攻擊核電廠的時候造成的失火這些事實上我們在緊急應變的部分也建立了相關的一些防護的措施所以這些都需要來滾動檢討尤其是最後一點我講的就是核廢料的問題沒有一個現實表態"},{"start":7958.479,"end":7961.021,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":7986.059,"end":7987.681,"text":"學術研究補助成效有限投入產業人數不多核安會在補助學術合作研究計畫總共培育161人核於未來三年重點產業所需只有31位"},{"start":8010.083,"end":8033.42,"text":"那補助32項的計畫有成果的目前承攬的這個所謂的這個政府的業務的也只有11項那這個部分是不是有一些具體的目標因為我覺得這個第一在人才的部分其實不到20%再來在計畫的部分呢也不到30%喔那這個部分是不是有一些比較具體的一些計畫跟目標因為我發現這個好像成效有限啊"},{"start":8035.079,"end":8060.871,"text":"這部分因為比較多的細節我們可不可以在會後再來補充沒有問題那會後再補充給我們辦公室最後我想要問的就是說關於我們的科普的教育當然我們說科普的這個策展佔這個總經費的部分其實也佔據了一半但是問題是當今其實核能領域最重要的就是核能的能源規劃的問題"},{"start":8062.291,"end":8084.281,"text":"我們可能有時候還沒有辦法達到就是能夠達到的所謂的願景的一個說明那我在想其實雖然我們要跟民眾來做溝通但是我們能不能夠真正達到跟社會輿論的溝通或者是在民眾他們雖然有的部分他們是肯定所謂的核電的安全但是到目前為止其實對於所謂的核廢料的處置的問題我們似乎好像避而不談"},{"start":8090.523,"end":8115.318,"text":"究竟這會否造成對外我們在跟大家一起來做溝通的部分?這個是有一些斷層呢?在核廢料處置的話基本上在經濟部今年成立的專案辦公室裡面其實在這部分的溝通也是屬於那個辦公室的這個必須執行的事項之一那在這部分的話我們在我們的所舉辦的相關的科普展的部分我們針對"},{"start":8116.158,"end":8128.187,"text":"核廢料處理的部分我們也有設置單位盡量來參觀的這個民眾能夠了解在核廢料處理的目前的狀況以及所遇到的困難因為我們知道在這個112年我們辦了這個兩場的這個科普展"},{"start":8131.929,"end":8133.45,"text":"兩場偏鄉高中活動三場科普活動教育內容大部分只談原子能知識或輻射防護等確定近期核廢料部分"},{"start":8147.236,"end":8147.576,"text":"需考量進去的"},{"start":8172.395,"end":8175.577,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":8191.468,"end":8216.552,"text":"有自己的自媒體包含我們的這個YT或者是在這個粉絲專頁當中但是目前我們看到的不管是點讚數也好回應數也好其實好像距離那個成效也不是太好是因為太生太生冷的這個這個嘗試嗎還是因為我們的這個話題離一般民眾他們可能覺得跟我還沒有太大的切身關係這個部分我們也要來改進好不好"},{"start":8217.252,"end":8232.662,"text":"對,我們這部分我們會來做更多的強化改進,更加文化一點。好,謝謝代理主委,謝謝。謝謝主席。代理主委請回,謝謝郭益勤委員的質詢,請回。那我們現在休息10分鐘。"},{"start":8266.34,"end":8267.671,"text":"計劃。"},{"start":8656.487,"end":8656.507,"text":"報告。"},{"start":8864.933,"end":8865.093,"text":"吳佩儀委員質詢"},{"start":8884.173,"end":8898.112,"text":"主委好今天呢我們要討論的是這個我們核安會的業務報告然後也有預算的詢答那我想很多人都在討論是這個有些人說核電要不要來研議那"},{"start":8901.127,"end":8915.48,"text":"日前我們行政院院長是說即便有修法通過要來重新評估核電廠的原意及啟用的話這個時間至少也是要三年半至五年"},{"start":8916.862,"end":8934.475,"text":"之前這是行政院院長的說法不過我最近看到一則中時的新聞他裡面說有不具名的核電廠前高層他說呢核電廠如果要延移的話最快一年多就可以來重啟我首先想要請問張代理主委你認同這個說法嗎?有辦法一年就來重啟嗎?"},{"start":8946.824,"end":8974.543,"text":"機組要重啟必須要根據機組的樣態來做安全評估台電公司事實上他們自己有說明他們在安全評估的部分他必須要評估他用多少時間才能完成整體的安全評估以核一廠為例的話他事實上已經進行了一些設備的拆除他整個組織管理的人力也做了組織的變革另外的話他有些設備的維護保養因為進入廚藝不再進行所以這整個都要來進行盤點"},{"start":8976.624,"end":9003.255,"text":"然後做出他們的安全評估之後還包括所有的老化的部分的評估他才能夠來進行這個安全的審查所以所謂的一年我並不清楚這個依據是什麼沒有錯因為其實有相當多跟安全有關的項目要來做評估那我仔細看了一下這位所謂的不具名核電廠前高層的說法他為什麼說可以一年呢他說其實核安會啊不需要檢查那麼多的項目"},{"start":9003.815,"end":9004.656,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":9024.056,"end":9029.841,"text":"所以呢他依照這三點他做出他的結論說只要核安會可以減少這個安全評估的項目的話那時間可以減少到一年我認同剛剛前面張代理主委所說的安全相關的項目這個非同小可我們該做的一定都來做"},{"start":9043.592,"end":9046.994,"text":"從專業來嚴格把關千萬不能有這種為了趕時間乾脆把你安全項目要檢查項目把它減少的這一種做法那同時我也相當質疑因為之前在質詢核安會的時候我也就曾提過了因為我們當年的核電廠還沒有環評法規所以過去不用做環評但是現在已經有環評法規了所以如果你不管你要重啟還是研議都需要來做環評"},{"start":9070.327,"end":9099.499,"text":"以環評的程序來講一年之內是不可能的除非你犧牲專業以及現在我們當代的公共治理也是一門專業公共治理裡面公民的參與這是必要的程序我舉個例子武漢會我們是研究機關你們可能比較沒有到執行層面那麼了解以台電來說台電一定相當清楚我們現在光是一個變電箱要下地"},{"start":9100.279,"end":9125.006,"text":"都一定要辦理現勘都一定要向民眾說明都一定要充分來溝通甚至要召開說明會這當中都需要公民參與公開透明的過程那我們教育委員會本委員會有非常多新北市的民意代表新北市的立法委員我相信他們也不可能可以認同說哇今天你一個核電廠要演繹要重啟竟然可以"},{"start":9125.646,"end":9126.087,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核"},{"start":9141.803,"end":9147.367,"text":"已而傳而。我很擔心這個錯誤的講法變成大家認為說一年是有可能的所以我希望這相關的資訊要澄清清楚以現行的以核安的專業來講如果你相關的安全項目都要來檢查的話一年是不可能的再來我們要通過環評的程序再來我們需要有公民參與的過程"},{"start":9163.758,"end":9176.955,"text":"所以我希望未來倘若真的有進入到要實質要來評估的時候希望核安會可以本於專業來進行嚴格的審查跟把關可以嗎委員核安會一定會本於專業嚴格把關是"},{"start":9178.777,"end":9180.759,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":9199.355,"end":9200.577,"text":"核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管"},{"start":9214.352,"end":9242.937,"text":"三倍甚至有些是標高到七到八倍的所以呢因為未來你們還在這個都還在做資訊相關的收集嘛也收集以後才有下一步的評估嘛我希望你們在做這個SMMR相關的資訊收集的時候連他的成本面也有一必要來整理清楚來提供更完整的這個評估好嗎好如果我們可以收集到相關的成本的資訊的話我們會請國研院把它納入他的這個資料收集的範圍"},{"start":9243.898,"end":9243.919,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":9245.578,"end":9269.834,"text":"接下來要請教的是我們核一乾除廠已經啟動現在進入熱測室就是把我們少量用過的核燃料封存完善之後拿去乾除廠來放置那上個月是我們台灣史上首次我們終於有能力有辦法開始把用過的燃料棒從燃料池裡面來移出來這是非常非常重要的一步所以我想請問一下因為現在是不是試運轉的期間我們乾除廠什麼時候可以來正式運轉"},{"start":9275.778,"end":9301.481,"text":"目前事實上是在做熱測試熱測試的話只做兩桶所以目前已經裝了一桶那一桶也運到儲存場址的定位接下來他們會做第二桶等到兩桶的熱測試做完他們會做整體的作業的檢討然後提出他的運轉執照申請然後我們會依照他運轉執照的申請相關的文件來檢視他是不是可以取得運轉執照"},{"start":9302.842,"end":9310.186,"text":"好的那因為這是我們第一次嘛幹處的嘗試在熱測室當中所以民眾也都很關心所以我希望說後續你們一定會有持續的監控等等相關資訊的收集我希望我們也要務必的來謹慎然後作為我們後續的實際操作的這些經驗的參考"},{"start":9322.914,"end":9344.218,"text":"最後一點也想要跟張理主委討論就是呢我們核安會每年都要推動性別主流化這也是行政院性品專案小組定期有在討論跟核管的那長期下來我們核安會的這個男女的比例目前整體全部的員工男性跟女性的比例是多少我們手邊有沒有數字多少我們應該是有數字6比4"},{"start":9348.393,"end":9350.753,"text":"主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":9373.158,"end":9378.723,"text":"國際的有一個組織歐洲的國際原子能總署他們現在也正在發起一個計畫跟領英的一個人力平台就是特別來去支持核能領域的女性人才我想這個可以給我們核安會來做參考希望我們可以跟我們整體的行政部會一起來往性別主流化的進程再往前推進是的我們繼續努力"},{"start":9403.042,"end":9407.545,"text":"謝謝主席有請代理主委及國園院院長有請代理主委及國園院院長"},{"start":9429.1,"end":9458.343,"text":"委員好好你好喔來我們來看一下我想今天就SMR的部分我想要快速跟國研院還有代理主委這邊討論喔其實我想今天有非常多委員都已經關心我就提出幾個簡單的問題目前我們看到在你們的業務報告資料裡面呢國研院有持續關注國際第四代反應器也就是還有小型模組化反應器的技術發展而且我們看到你們適當的投入資源不管是人力或者是預算那也就是說就國研院的角度"},{"start":9458.723,"end":9484.078,"text":"目前你們是怎麼看待你們目前投入的經費跟這個研究,跟你們想像未來的可能性?報告委員,我們事實上基於身為國家的一個研究機構,我們隨時都會注意前瞻的研究。我們在三年前就開始針對美國已經核准過的,管制單位核准過的NewScale這個"},{"start":9485.479,"end":9488.003,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":9503.302,"end":9527.79,"text":"監督單位核安會也撥了100萬給我們做這樣的研究今年明年開始就是114年我們編了1543萬做SMR相關的研究針對核心物理緊急疏散還有這個熱流分析我們做一個評估同時盤點我們現在所用的一些程式跟"},{"start":9528.57,"end":9531.311,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":9553.663,"end":9554.043,"text":"此外,此外,此外,"},{"start":9573.275,"end":9599.189,"text":"相較於大型反應爐它真的有更加經濟嗎?其實也有不同的學者有不同的看法認為降低成本通常不會超過百分之三十再來往下看還有它會比反應爐更安全嗎?其實也有人提出相關疑議認為說我投影片這邊有寫被動安全功能並非總是有效特別遭遇強震、洪患或野火等極端事件那我想強震這個絕對是我們台灣要避免的事情好再來下一個"},{"start":9600.489,"end":9617.04,"text":"放射性的廢棄物會比較少嗎?在小型模組這個問題上其實也是有專家學者提出疑議了也就是不必然必然是這樣好再來下一個它的安全性難道好到不需要監控跟維護嗎?或者是SMS使用的燃料會更少更有效率嗎?"},{"start":9617.64,"end":9635.125,"text":"也就是說如果在你們的研究當中你們其實也有反映過類似的問題也看到類似的問題參考過很多國際專家學者那我想因為今天時間有限那這是比較專業的問題我們就不在這邊討論但是我想立法院站在監督的角度還是要提出提醒喔所以我最後有一個小結也要拜託你們積極的研究"},{"start":9637.225,"end":9660.22,"text":"其實已經有很多專家學者提出尤其在台灣我們之前參加過一個線上會議在線上會議當中的專家學者是來自美國優斯科學家聯盟核電安全主任他提醒大家考量小型模組化反應爐的設計台灣必須謹慎的思考充分評估它的安全性而這個評估的來源可能就來自於我剛剛講的五大面向的問題"},{"start":9660.981,"end":9665.747,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":9678.502,"end":9695.291,"text":"檢討這個為什麼我一定要把標題念出來因為我們真的跟你們談過很多次我們來看那現在資料有些問題現在這一張統計資料呢是來自河安會的服防年報我們可以看到台灣投入輻射相關產業工作人員是逐年增加這是人員的部分2023來到56892人我們來看下一張"},{"start":9700.354,"end":9723.386,"text":"可是核安會給我們的資料裡面說職業暴露的劑量限值是每連續5年週期的有效劑量不得超過100毫西弗也就是平均每一年不得超過20毫西弗而且你們自己有說任何單一年內之有效劑量不得超過50毫西弗實務上長期以來我們大家都認為這是一個很重要的規範"},{"start":9724.406,"end":9730.15,"text":"我們現在想問如果這個規範往下去看我們來看一下現場是不是真的都是這樣呢來看總體劑量的部分從2000年到2023年這20多年來我們看到人口數越來越多但是這張統計圖上所偵測到的總體劑量卻相對偏低我真的覺得怪怪尤其請主委注意08到19年這個數字請你稍微記一下我們來看下一張統計圖"},{"start":9751.906,"end":9760.598,"text":"全國輻射工作人員近20年來看他們的平均劑量值也是逐漸下滑一樣請您注意08到19年下一張"},{"start":9763.345,"end":9782.179,"text":"再到輻射工作人員的個人年紀量大於50或者是20毫西弗的人數近15年來08到19趨於個位數或者是零以上這幾張我想要問如果這個數據是可信的那我們來看另外一個最近的新聞"},{"start":9783.42,"end":9808.91,"text":"在前面圖卡我剛特別提醒主委08到19年那整體的計量相對偏低人員計量數值也下滑甚至是輻射工作人員個人的年紀量都低於50跟20毫西弗看起來這個數字很安全吶這個統計數字也很漂亮可是我們真的懷疑會不會有一些黑數是你們沒有掌握跟我們所不知道的我們來看一下這個新聞吶這一家工程公司呢在"},{"start":9809.13,"end":9835.608,"text":"二零一九年被揭露有造假劑量配章的資料那這間公司在今年就在今年的七月被高雄地檢署他以過失致死罪起訴高雄地檢署的資料我寫在頭影片上我就念給主委聽他說啊為避免該人員劑量配章所偵測的輻射量超標致使工作人員必須停止作業負責人涉嫌從民國97年3月起到108年1月止"},{"start":9839.771,"end":9851.426,"text":"只是公司的員工在進行檢測作業的時候不要佩戴劑量配章導致該公司無性員工長期暴露在過量的輻射量而罹患急性白血症死亡。"},{"start":9853.055,"end":9874.369,"text":"這就是我剛剛為什麼說如果你們的統計數字這麼漂亮但是為什麼會出現這個事情核安會到底有多少的把握剛剛那些漂亮的數字是真的有反映到現場相關從業人員他們的環境如果你們這麼有把握為什麼還會出現這個事情而且這還是現場有人揭露的會不會有沒有人揭露的資料我們來看下一張"},{"start":9875.67,"end":9879.892,"text":"根據核安會你們在給我們的資料從04年針對業者裁罰案件核安會的公開資料有違反游離輻射防護法的有95件受罰業者有125家那這裡面包含哪些呢沒有對該人員實施個別劑量監測還有沒有依照規定劃定管制區實施維理管制或者是沒有依照相關規定實施在職輻射工作人員定期健康檢查所以"},{"start":9902.022,"end":9902.582,"text":"主委,您怎麼看這件事情?"},{"start":9919.366,"end":9948.552,"text":"我想那個剛才的案例其實也就是提醒我們我們在後續要做加強其實有這個案例之後我們在服防組的部分我們在不義警這個稽查部分也做加強資料比對上也做加強因為我們之前其實有做視察可是確實他們沒有反映出來那但是由於這個案例的話我們針對我們的管制作業我們做了一些強化那另外我們現在正在進行的修法作業事實上也會賦予業者更多的責任"},{"start":9948.672,"end":9950.034,"text":"二十年將近二十年那目前你們有沒有研議相關修法的進度"},{"start":9964.241,"end":9990.384,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9990.624,"end":10017.803,"text":"關心聽到這個消息那我想辦公室持續的監督那因為我時間有限所以法的部分你剛說一個月內所以我們就期待12月我們到時候會在委員會在針對法案的部分去討論保護現場更多工作人員的安全抱歉我說的委員會是核安會的委員會不是我們教育化委員會喔不是要核安會委員會通過之後希望在明年的第一個會議那還是先把資料給所有教育化委員會委員對相關資料我們提供謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":10019.748,"end":10026.15,"text":"代理主委請回陳培宇委員質詢完畢再來請陳培宇委員代主持然後我質詢接下來有請范雲委員謝謝主席有請我們張代理主委有請主委謝謝"},{"start":10051.638,"end":10067.731,"text":"稍微好代理主委您好今天其實主要是要跟您請教一個核安會的一個重要的業務就是關於所謂的民生輻射我想我這邊放的這個新聞今年暑假7月30號關於出事的紅林公司假照輻射相關的資訊然後原能會一直都沒有發現"},{"start":10080.04,"end":10081.542,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":10100.981,"end":10102.203,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":10117.244,"end":10119.525,"text":"事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預事件事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預事件事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預事件事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":10135.314,"end":10147.185,"text":"因此今年暑假被判過失致死罪我覺得比較遺憾的事情是最後還要家屬去告核安會的角色看起來好像並沒有發揮得很好在這個部分如果"},{"start":10150.848,"end":10167.126,"text":"同樣一家公司再度發生狀況我想請問核安會如何告知大眾尤其是員工因為這是一個非常嚴重的職業安全那輻射這個部分是非常的專業那同樣的情況再發生的話核安會如何告訴大家呢"},{"start":10169.106,"end":10195.257,"text":"我想基本上我們也很不願意這樣子的事情發生所以如果同樣狀況再度發生的話最嚴重的話我們會讓他取消他的這個許可證照更嚴重的話可是他2008年當然不是這家我們講的是別家嘛那至於這個防範措施的部分那我們剛才有提到除了不預警的視察因為這個其實也有點這個"},{"start":10198.455,"end":10225.154,"text":"結構體的問題就是檢驗師本身他沒有佩戴事實上我們去的時候以往我們並沒有收集到相關的訊息所以之後我覺得教育是需要提升的就是員工也要知道他的權益不是說業者另外的話我們在修法的時候請主委簡短回答我想請問你像這樣的公司在你們要監管中的全國有幾家"},{"start":10227.182,"end":10228.903,"text":"一萬多家一萬多家"},{"start":10257.302,"end":10282.285,"text":"然後你們矚密當時在事發的記者會後宣稱會強化雇主自主管理請問你們做了什麼東西有沒有修任何的法律或者是相關的規定能夠強化全國超過上萬有類似的輻射劑量應該被監控管控的你們做了什麼能夠強化雇主自主管理因為你們認為只能靠雇主自主管理"},{"start":10286.098,"end":10287.419,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":10307.498,"end":10335.21,"text":"因為這個法我看上一次修是民國91年2002年欸剛才有報告說我們其實草案已經出來了然後我們所有該做的程序會商跟業者的討論我們也走完了然後送到行政院已經送到行政院他們也經過審視並沒有重大的修正意見但是現在因為遇到我們阻改所以我們依照程序要在核安會的委員會做報告因為我們現在是委員制所以我們要在核安會然後我們現在希望是明年"},{"start":10336.01,"end":10339.333,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":10358.49,"end":10358.91,"text":"事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":10369.741,"end":10397.344,"text":"因為就是我看你們的網站喔當年你就算有裁罰他的員工也不會知道啊因為受處分人在你們這個這裡面是完全不公告是哪家公司欸那我們去問了你們你們給的理由是說依照行政法法第二條相關法律必須明文授權才能公佈然後又說服防法裡面已經訂有罰款等等意思就是不用再公告姓名單位了"},{"start":10398.384,"end":10421.761,"text":"請問你們修法有包含這個應該要公告這些違反游離輻射防護法讓他的員工暴露在這麼嚴重的健康風險20個員工4個人罹癌3個人死亡都是青壯年30、40歲請問你們的修法有包含這個嗎報告委員我們的修法目前沒有包括公告這個姓名或名稱的部分有要公告"},{"start":10422.981,"end":10448.697,"text":"為什麼不公告呢?這難道不是一個重要的公共利益?因為我們之前修法還是在修服防法的行政相關的這個管制的部分但是委員關切的這部分我們已經有請說我們服防組在要去研議就是說我們在後續是不是再怎麼請那我先請問你代理主委你也擔任過核安會那麼多重要的職位你個人認為是不是應該公告這種不良業主?"},{"start":10449.757,"end":10472.344,"text":"對所以我們現在開始我們會針對這一塊去做演繹怎麼樣去處理那你可不可以承諾我你們送來我們立法院的就是要公告這些違法的單位公司名稱不良業主這樣他的員工才能知道啊否則被你開罰你又說你們能量不夠叫他們自主管理連被開罰的這家公司2008年就被你們開罰結果2019年後來死了三個員工欸"},{"start":10476.618,"end":10476.658,"text":"委員報告"},{"start":10497.873,"end":10522.119,"text":"我是不知道這個2019年的事情現在2024年我們查這個事情的時候你們本辦跟你要一個說明你還告訴我一副就是這件事情就是就是不需要公開姓名單位所以我覺得你們對於就是這麼重要您剛講你們的工作不是只有廚藝工作嗎那輻射安全全民輻射安全就是你們的守備範圍不是嗎是"},{"start":10523.479,"end":10540.736,"text":"那如果你認為全國一萬多家你就檢查了九十幾家要叫大家自主防範自主防範不過都已經被開罰你還不公告你要叫員工如何自主防範我們每個人都是輻射專家嗎所以這部分我們後續會參考別的部會的相關的公告做法來研議後續"},{"start":10542.137,"end":10566.166,"text":"修法我想這麼重要的事情你跟行政院要求說你要改一部分他們應該會尊重你那不管你用什麼方式是不是給我辦公室一個書面報告你們如何盡速修訂游離輻射防護法或者是相關的規定好嗎只要是公告這種不良的業主就應該公告單位名稱跟業主的姓名才能夠維護他們的勞工的安全好嗎我後續補充報告給委員"},{"start":10570.708,"end":10599.855,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":10602.927,"end":10605.829,"text":"我們現在請羅廷威委員質詢好,謝謝召委,有請代理主委有請代理主委好,主委好主委,輻射可不可怕輻射要做適當的防護那輻射你認為它可不可怕"},{"start":10631.65,"end":10648.721,"text":"那要看你怎麼應用怎麼應用對那你說將不當的這些輻射外洩的一些潛在因素那藉由這樣子的狀況去忽略了沒有去做防範讓我們的所謂的工作同仁去接觸到輻射那您看起來這樣的個案可不可怕"},{"start":10649.774,"end":10676.849,"text":"這樣是不應該存在的那我想輻射很可怕但更可怕的是既然有人去隱秘或者甚至是不去加以防備讓工作人員去接觸到其實這一類的案件我們服務處也有接到相關的一些通報我們也都很關心我想剛剛昭偉有在關心這個案件我想作為不同政黨我們也都一起聲援我們希望公眾環境能夠更加的安全之外"},{"start":10677.449,"end":10694.991,"text":"我們希望政府能夠來幫忙協助而不是要求自治如果能夠自治的話大家都自己來自治那我們也不需要什麼酒駕大家自治就好不會有酒駕所以我希望剛剛你說的各個部會裡面有相關的公佈"},{"start":10695.852,"end":10713.749,"text":"規定的方法之一能不能來做一個參考這部分你可以去參考一下不管是我們在兒少的部分不管是酒駕的部分也都有公布的一些相關的法令可以做一個參考本席也是希望這件事情要重視因為我覺得更可怕的是人心"},{"start":10714.91,"end":10742.967,"text":"因為既然有人還可以去隱秘不去防備甚至是讓工作人員第一線去接觸所以我覺得他比輻射更可怕那我們就需要有方法去修改的能夠更加防範於未然我們都相信人性本善但是我們還是應該加以法治化來去做防範所以這部分我也必須一起來聲援也希望代理主委您應該要重視去處理這個案件真的已經很久了當然"},{"start":10743.948,"end":10759.085,"text":"您之前不在任但是我們希望您能夠大刀闊斧做出一些態度做出一些事情出來好嗎是好主委那今年7月份本席有發文向常常會所知110年到111年典化甲的藥劑財務"},{"start":10761.347,"end":10788.892,"text":"採購案今天本席將採購案的內容來做一個詢問請問國內目前具有點片製造的許可藥商目前有一家國內哪一家做不出那一家做不出來嗎為什麼這個採購案要採國際標因為當初在採購的時候聲音可以大聲一點嗎因為我們有參考國外的相關的資訊國際相關的資訊我們希望這樣子的儲備是有一個比較長期的一個儲備的一個量能"},{"start":10789.901,"end":10800.971,"text":"所以你認為國內這個不行?我們並沒有排除如果國內可以供應的話他也可以來供應那有適用政府採購法呢?"},{"start":10802.307,"end":10825.336,"text":"這個部分在這個我們是依照政府採購法公開招標的公開招標你是依據該法的第105條第一項第二款的機關辦理人民之生命身體健康安全之財產遭遇緊急危難採購的事項得不適用於本法招標呢是用這個辦理招標嗎我們是用一般的招高規範那若不是是依據哪一條"},{"start":10828.172,"end":10841.104,"text":"特別採購法遭標決標處理辦法第5條第一項還是依據政府採購法第105條第一項第二款可不可以說一下是不是可以請秘書室主任說明一下"},{"start":10842.837,"end":10858.326,"text":"報告委員我們這個採購案的部分是依照政府採購法我們用我們的公開招標的程序來做那委員剛剛提到105條的部分他是適用緊急狀態的時候來做的那我們這個案子並不是適用這個部分"},{"start":10859.467,"end":10883.747,"text":"我們當時在起案的過程當中,廠商其實針對這個部分有提出他們的異議,那這個異議的部分我們也有答覆,那也經過工程會召開相關的會議之後,我們依照工程會後續的決議,我們還是維持用這種方式來進行招標。好,我希望要求核安會三日內寫一個採購案的一個完整的SOP。"},{"start":10884.856,"end":10911.691,"text":"讓我們能夠了解一下沒關係你如果有這樣子的定案以後就以這樣子的模本我們都可以來做一個參考但是我要確定未來在這樣子的相關的國際標採購案能夠有一個SOP可循包括採購的流程是怎麼進行還有相關的法源依據這個部分你都要去依這個我所說的採購案的一個完整的SOP副表列給我們可以嗎在三個月之內補這個報告給委員三個月內剛才委員說三個月內啊"},{"start":10914.653,"end":10915.074,"text":"三日內。"},{"start":10922.935,"end":10924.997,"text":"9月25日衛福部宣布輔導核實全面解禁,請問有沒有問過你的意見?"},{"start":10950.938,"end":10968.491,"text":"基本上我們是協助輻射偵測所以我們所有相關輻射偵測的結果都是作為這個衛福部他們參考的資訊對不起你的聲音真的很小聲基本上我們是在協助輻射相關偵測所以我們所有檢測的結果都有提供給衛福部做相關的參考所以他有問過你意見嗎"},{"start":10969.853,"end":10970.193,"text":"檢測結果有沒有超標?"},{"start":10988.359,"end":11004.344,"text":"沒有沒有超標的這個沒有超標好那大陸也朝解禁的方向來進行喔是在同意日本同意擴大國際原子能總屬對海水魚類的一個監測喔包含中國在內的第三國都能參加監測體制請問台灣可以比照辦理嗎"},{"start":11006.316,"end":11018.492,"text":"因為我們不是IEA的會員國所以這部分的話我們沒有辦法依照因為他是在依照IEA會員國的體制底下去執行的所以我們是另外跟日方做合作的一個"},{"start":11022.038,"end":11047.936,"text":"國際原子能總署10月9日在福島第一核戰場近海採集了魚類樣品將調查放射性的物質濃度大陸南韓及瑞士連瑞士都有派員參加那你剛剛說跟日本同步我們有沒有機會派員跟日本同步監測這部分的話因為還是剛才的說明因為那是屬於IAEA的會員國的所有的這個組織架構之下執行的"},{"start":11049.457,"end":11072.33,"text":"所以我們就沒辦法對我們不是IEA的會員好那沒關係今天我有稍微聽到因為這個呃代理主委你有說到你有去做相關的檢測檢測完是沒有超標我們是做我們的海域漁獲期取樣這些的食品進口的這些的所有的檢測的結果我們事實上都有公佈做我們的海域所以不包含日本的海域嗎"},{"start":11076.083,"end":11096.785,"text":"檢測的魚類是我國的海產對但是進口的這個水產品那食藥署他會他們會這個取樣去抽樣我們會協助做這個輻射檢測所以進口的日本日本的水都有對這相關的檢測報告可以給我們一份嗎"},{"start":11100.732,"end":11128.718,"text":"在衛福部有公告這部分我們也可以提供好再麻煩你也給我們一份那我想近期我們對於不管是福島的核食以及我們一直在關注的有關於這個近海流域不斷的在日本有排放所謂核廢水那相關的輻射值會不會一直在隨著海流來到台灣這部分的監測我們都持續在關注也希望這個代理主委能夠協助這方面的資料讓我們本席能夠知道我想我們都很重視這一類議題好嗎是"},{"start":11130.519,"end":11130.539,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":11142.277,"end":11160.343,"text":"張嘉峻、張嘉峻、張嘉峻委員楊瓊英、楊瓊英、楊瓊英委員高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅委員李燕秀、李燕秀、李燕秀委員鄭振銜、鄭振銜、鄭振銜委員黃建豪、黃建豪、黃建豪委員邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員"},{"start":11161.583,"end":11177.912,"text":"蘇清淳、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員何欣淳、何欣淳、何欣淳委員鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌委員翁曉林、翁曉林、翁曉林委員羅明財、羅明財、羅明財委員徐欣穎、徐欣穎、徐欣穎委員議員之委員請質詢主席好,麻煩請代理主委"},{"start":11190.421,"end":11191.408,"text":"好請張代理主委"},{"start":11194.773,"end":11222.184,"text":"委員好那個代理主委好剛剛好像其他委員跟你問到就是說核安會的網站點閱率都非常差啦當然我的瞭解是你們現在還要花一千兩百多萬這麼多錢要去架設一個網站那這個議題啊我們當時看到你們要做這個事情的時候就覺得很誇張到底什麼樣的礦勢聚座網站需要花一千兩百四十四萬這麼高額的錢去做網站到底有沒有隨便亂花錢"},{"start":11223.524,"end":11234.607,"text":"那這個網站是所謂的輻射安全防護數位自主學習網1244萬那我跟你對照另外一個項目那個項目叫臺灣地區環境輻射偵測經費就是說我們會在全臺灣放射一些輻射的偵測的一些設備放這些設備全臺灣放設備去偵測輻射大概花1139萬"},{"start":11250.885,"end":11265.614,"text":"但是我們架一個網站就花了一千兩百四十四萬比放偵測輻射的錢還多那我們現在就來跟你討教一下到底這個網站為什麼要花這麼多錢這個網站您知道嗎?您知道齁?請問一下這個網站為什麼要花這麼多錢做?"},{"start":11269.877,"end":11294.633,"text":"首先這個環境輻射偵測的經費這個經費其實是一個例行的維護保養沒有我是問你網站這個網站的部分事實上因為這個輻射從業人員日益增多其實剛才都有提到這個輻射防護事實上是非常重要的一環所以我們希望在有各種方式來強化這個輻射防護"},{"start":11296.754,"end":11308.502,"text":"為什麼要花這麼多錢?因為有700多萬是做硬體的部分網站的硬體部分網站的硬體你們做一個網站的硬體要700多萬這700多萬硬體是什麼錢?"},{"start":11312.56,"end":11321.286,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":11342.516,"end":11357.946,"text":"這個一定要跟委員說明一下因為我們要建立這樣子數位化其實數位化還會涉及到各自的問題所以這其實在這委員是說建置一個這樣的話其實這個部分的話其實我們是有細部的一個評估那確實是需要發放"},{"start":11361.549,"end":11385.288,"text":"沒關係繼續因為之前我們也有跟你們這邊問過到底這個所謂的網站到底要做什麼你們的講法是說因為你們要讓一些醫護人員來主要的用法是說要讓全國民眾包括醫護人員來使用這個網站所以你們這個網站是要對全民的特別是醫護人員但是這個醫護人員部分我就非常不解為什麼呢第一"},{"start":11386.228,"end":11400.714,"text":"醫護人員如果他要操作這個可能會有輻射的這些設備的時候他要考證照,原本他就具備相關的知識了,對吧?他如果都不具備輻射的知識他可以去當比如說X光的放射師嗎?可以嗎?"},{"start":11401.806,"end":11403.948,"text":"為什麼你們還要做一個網站去讓這些醫護人員去了解輻射的知識?為什麼?我想任何一個從業"},{"start":11422.25,"end":11423.55,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":11447.782,"end":11472.454,"text":"考證照沒有關係嘛所以他有上沒上沒有差嘛那你又告訴人家說他必須要再訓練意思是說如果沒有這個網站的話我們的X光師他們可能知識就落伍了啊他未來可能操作這些事情就會錯誤啊會影響到醫療的品質啊所以這個網站很重要嘛所以要花一千多萬嘛你的意思是這樣嘛那如果是這樣要不要讓那些醫護師繼續再考證照如果沒有的話你這個網站"},{"start":11474.531,"end":11502.054,"text":"我覺得沒有辦法說服人啦第二個你有考慮到這些醫護人員他有時間去上你們這個網站嗎你知道現在各大醫院急診室都塞床啊你知道原因是什麼嗎因為護理師都不夠啊護理師不夠所以很多病床都沒有開啊所以很多人都在急診室等病床然後現在核安會說我要架一個一千多萬的網站去讓這些醫事人員要來進修啊如果沒有進修的話可能知識會落伍啊他們有空上嗎"},{"start":11506.029,"end":11527.028,"text":"主委代理主委我是覺得可以跟委員分享一個概念就是說並不是等到他們急需之需要的時候我們才來做那就已經來不及了那所以你有強制他們來上嗎你有要求說他們要多少時數所以才能夠繼續做這個工作嗎有這樣要求嗎"},{"start":11528.083,"end":11546.324,"text":"後續怎麼樣去提升它們需要的這個...所以你講的是你現在解釋說為什麼要架這個網站因為呢那些議事人員沒有來上你的網站知識就會落伍了不是等到落伍了才來修應該是平常就要進修你的想法是這樣你把這個網站進修講得非常重要可是我現在問你說那你有沒有強制他一定要來進修你又說後續再規劃"},{"start":11548.547,"end":11574.587,"text":"所以你當初在規劃這1000多萬的網站的時候你都沒有考慮到他後續的配套嘛再來喔其實你們這個網站當時告訴我們說裡面有很多線上的模擬測驗提庫啊什麼的一些案例示範教材等等但實際上這一些所謂你要在這個網站上面要放的這些東西專業知識教材提庫在現有的核安會網站上都有啦都已經有放啦"},{"start":11578.473,"end":11579.514,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":11601.751,"end":11624.031,"text":"再來我們也不是你們核安會也不是只有這個網站是這個狀況這些錢一千多萬我不知道核安會覺得是不是不是錢就要做這個東西然後你們也有一個APP叫做核安1.通APP核安會的APP8年總共花了156萬去做這個APP主委知道嗎"},{"start":11628.307,"end":11651.643,"text":"知道嗎?那你知道這個APP的下載量所有的平台比如說蘋果的系統、Android系統加起來它下載量是多少你知道嗎?一萬多一萬六千八百九十四次八年花一百五十六萬然後只有下載一萬六千八百九十四次實際上下載的量你覺得高嗎?我們繼續努力那你覺得高嗎?"},{"start":11655.421,"end":11662.228,"text":"我覺得我們需要繼續努力你覺得高不高嘛我覺得我們應該提高主委你覺得高不高如果官員來這背詢這種態度的話沒有我是你覺得高不高嘛就是因為我們希望你覺得不高嘛你覺得低嘛你覺得低嘛"},{"start":11671.961,"end":11685.453,"text":"你已經花156萬做一個APP下載量你自己都覺得不滿意了你覺得要再高你現在又要再花1200多萬去下這一個網站這個網站裡面的內容很多在你原本的網站就有"},{"start":11687.421,"end":11712.231,"text":"然後你說這個網站的溝通對象是醫護人員但那些醫護人員平常他們本來就有受這些核輻射的訓練他才能取得證照然後你現在又告訴我說他們如果沒有來上你這個網站的話他的知識可能不足所以你覺得他們就是要不斷的要終身學習所以要上這個網站但是你又講不出你之後怎麼配套比如說要求他一定要來補時數他的證照才能延續"},{"start":11713.231,"end":11714.799,"text":"我的感覺啦我今天跟你對談的感覺你那個網站1200萬就丟到水裡啦"},{"start":11720.083,"end":11744.174,"text":"跟委員報告我們是第一年度我們是以醫護人員為主但是我們希望這個輻射的這個平台之後是跟輻射相關的這個業者或者關心的民眾都可以對但是我光是跟你討論醫護第一年醫護嘛你花了1200多萬嘛為了醫護嘛第一年嘛但是我光跟你討論醫護的這一塊我覺得很多事情都沒有回答好啊對"},{"start":11745.154,"end":11745.294,"text":"我們醫護人員"},{"start":11776.212,"end":11792.158,"text":"不是錢嗎?時間到了快到了超過了基本上我覺得委員關切的部分你補一個完整的效益評估1244萬效益評估"},{"start":11795.336,"end":11819.264,"text":"好,我們之後補給委員什麼時候補?效益評估?你到底細項為什麼要做一個網站要花到一千兩百多萬?到底為什麼?我們一個月之內補給委員所以你們沒有報告喔?你們沒有效益評估要一個月,要去掰喔?這個報告應該現成的啊,為什麼要一個月?你們當初花錢做事情的時候都會有一個效益評估啊怎麼那個東西拿給我就好了,為什麼要一個月?是說還要去掰是不是?"},{"start":11821.881,"end":11840.31,"text":"姜蕙可不可以請她,我們,那這報告可以,沒有,你現在,請你會後就是今天下班前先把你們的1200多萬的效益評估報告,手上有的先送過來,對,今天,今天下班前好嗎?姜蕙可以嗎?今天我們先把計畫相關的資料給委員,好,謝謝。"},{"start":11844.232,"end":11858.262,"text":"好那代理主委請回謝謝葉元芝委員的質詢我們關於今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢另有吳春成委員提出書面質詢"},{"start":11859.523,"end":11880.514,"text":"關於今天的會議作以下決議一、報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報對委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關盡速以書面答覆一、四年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會"},{"start":11882.535,"end":11904.35,"text":"算案,行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案相關提案請於11月29日下午2點前提出,令定期繼續審查。報告委員會,今天議程處理完畢,現在休息,謝謝各位。"},{"start":11937.759,"end":11937.779,"text":"報告。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}