{"error":false,"id":["162846"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":162846,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162846","日期":"2025-06-25","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-3-19-17","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":3,"會次":17,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-06-25T11:55:14+08:00","結束時間":"2025-06-25T12:03:34+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:20","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3c0085a4689617f575a79d478cf7e11f2e63c9c5beafd2007cefc3e4f112f4f0b803803d6f493de85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:55:14 - 12:03:34","會議時間":"2025-06-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、農業部部長及中央銀行首長就「因應國際經貿情勢變化，如何協助我國產業面對台幣匯率及國際能源價格遽變」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月23日及6月25日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.603468750000001,"end":10.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.99971875,"end":11.489093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.88409375,"end":22.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.20471875,"end":22.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.22159375,"end":22.238468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.238468750000003,"end":22.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.27221875,"end":22.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.62659375,"end":23.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.02721875,"end":25.360343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.44471875,"end":27.672218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.60034375,"end":29.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.81534375,"end":29.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.96721875,"end":31.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.68409375,"end":34.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.282843750000005,"end":40.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.087843750000005,"end":44.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.59784375,"end":48.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.580343750000004,"end":51.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.14534375,"end":52.174718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.18721875,"end":53.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.064718750000004,"end":56.359718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.304718750000006,"end":58.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.009093750000005,"end":59.025968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.025968750000004,"end":59.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.05971875,"end":59.734718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.734718750000006,"end":59.751593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.595343750000005,"end":60.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.16909375,"end":62.265968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.73409375000001,"end":65.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.59034375,"end":65.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.13034375000001,"end":67.80096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.91909375,"end":68.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.32409375,"end":69.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.97346875000001,"end":71.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.07471875,"end":71.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.12534375,"end":71.17596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.17596875000001,"end":71.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.90971875000001,"end":78.16221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.93471875,"end":76.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.18346875,"end":79.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.52471875,"end":91.45971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.16534375,"end":85.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.71284375,"end":97.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.00784375,"end":95.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.89346875000001,"end":97.78784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.78784375000001,"end":101.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.07409375,"end":104.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.21284375,"end":107.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.14909375,"end":108.73971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.04346875,"end":111.23721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.43971875000001,"end":113.78534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.47284375000001,"end":116.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.78909375,"end":116.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.80596875,"end":120.09659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.23159375,"end":121.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.49284375,"end":125.12534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.42909375,"end":130.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.13284375,"end":132.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.29284375,"end":134.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.06409375,"end":141.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.79784375,"end":143.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.13096875000002,"end":147.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.07534375,"end":149.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.40409375000002,"end":152.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.74971875,"end":153.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.50471875000002,"end":157.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.69409375,"end":159.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.10721875000002,"end":166.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.29596875000001,"end":168.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.57846875,"end":168.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.91596875000002,"end":173.15159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.28221875,"end":179.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.71596875,"end":181.53846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.87596875,"end":186.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.59659375,"end":188.71034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.94659375,"end":190.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.65096875,"end":193.01346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.58721875,"end":198.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.64971875,"end":205.51784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.29409375,"end":210.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.55909375000002,"end":216.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.91221875000002,"end":220.72221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.77284375000002,"end":223.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.67534375000002,"end":231.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.60721875000002,"end":228.28221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.31971875000002,"end":236.77034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.24284375000002,"end":238.50846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.82909375000003,"end":240.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.83721875,"end":242.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.28846875000002,"end":245.19096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.19096875000002,"end":247.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.65909375,"end":246.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.72659375,"end":246.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.03034375000001,"end":247.41846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.41846875000002,"end":247.43534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.93721875000003,"end":250.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.74284375000002,"end":259.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.96534375,"end":259.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.70346875,"end":261.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.23909375,"end":261.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.64409375,"end":266.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.76159375000003,"end":267.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.68534375,"end":275.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.46909375,"end":275.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.92034375000003,"end":277.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.36721875,"end":282.01221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.67034375000003,"end":283.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.64909375,"end":285.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.26471875000004,"end":286.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.54721875,"end":288.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.52596875,"end":289.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.19659375000003,"end":291.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.45784375,"end":294.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.44471875,"end":298.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.25846875,"end":303.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.18596875000003,"end":305.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.97471875,"end":307.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.15159375,"end":313.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.38284375,"end":315.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.40784375000004,"end":318.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.96846875,"end":319.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.98096875000005,"end":321.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.68534375,"end":323.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.12346875000003,"end":331.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.74284375,"end":337.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.39159375,"end":340.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.24346875000003,"end":342.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.67346875000004,"end":346.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.03159375,"end":349.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.54596875000004,"end":351.72284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.78596875,"end":353.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.49034375,"end":357.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.79784375,"end":359.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.93659375000004,"end":362.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.43846875,"end":362.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.33284375000005,"end":364.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.42534375,"end":365.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.43784375,"end":371.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.20909375,"end":373.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.28471875,"end":375.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.46159375,"end":380.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.18659375000004,"end":382.38471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.26221875000005,"end":384.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.23659375,"end":386.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.62034375,"end":387.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.22346875000005,"end":388.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.57346875,"end":393.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.21409375,"end":395.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.42471875,"end":400.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.23409375,"end":404.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.40221875000003,"end":406.33034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.03909375,"end":410.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.37596875,"end":412.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.33784375000005,"end":416.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.62409375000004,"end":417.92346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.05846875000003,"end":418.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.30221875,"end":433.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.97159375,"end":434.20784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.20784375000005,"end":434.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.44409375000004,"end":436.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.95846875,"end":438.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.11846875000003,"end":444.75471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.53096875000006,"end":445.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.49284375,"end":447.74159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.79221875,"end":448.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.47971875,"end":450.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.57659375000003,"end":455.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.63909375000003,"end":458.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.87909375000004,"end":459.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.84096875,"end":460.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.95471875000004,"end":461.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.43971875000005,"end":463.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.97534375000004,"end":466.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.87784375,"end":468.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.81846875,"end":469.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.27409375,"end":480.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.34409375,"end":482.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.30159375000005,"end":485.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.77784375000005,"end":486.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.45284375000006,"end":488.30909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.74784375,"end":490.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.94159375000004,"end":493.47284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.34596875000005,"end":497.26971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.86034375,"end":498.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.31159375000004,"end":500.17221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.598,"end":11.06,"text":"那高雄大樹違法的光電廠引發了軒然大波高雄那邊有很多鄉親"},{"start":33.088,"end":62.117,"text":"也站出來抗議那目前媒體上面的報導是經濟部的能源署除了裁罰以外還會廢止他的許可這件事情是真的嗎?報告委員我們已經在昨天正式的廢止他的許可也公告了廢止什麼許可?我們也公告了廢止什麼許可?電液醜色許可嗎?廢止他的施工許可施工許可那電液醜色許可呢?"},{"start":63.766,"end":75.272,"text":"本來他就已經失效天衛酬這個許可早就失效了什麼時候失效了要委員同意你才可以講話"},{"start":80.938,"end":107.097,"text":"那個案子因為他我們酬赦許可通常都會給三年那三年之內他來換施工許可的話那個部分因為已經超過10校所以他那個酬赦就所以現在是施工許可接著電業酬赦許可是不是那現在施工許可已經把他給廢止掉了第二個問題我再請教一下部長就是說他那個107筆的土地是跟我們自來水公司租的嗎"},{"start":108.4,"end":134.429,"text":"是的那那個自然水公司那107筆土地一年收到多少錢部長手上有資料嗎我現在手上沒有資料沒有關係那個部長我跟你講齁我現在問的問題你手上沒有資料現在不用回答沒關係會後請經濟部的同仁書面回覆我這樣好嗎是的好第二個問題喔他把這個地搞成這個樣子啊台水要把地收回來嗎"},{"start":139.853,"end":159.123,"text":"我想我們會依法依規來處理啦那就請台水回去review一下契約因為我很難想像把東西租給他他可以在上面胡搞瞎搞到這樣子的程度那台水如果什麼事情也沒辦法做地也沒有辦法收回來的話"},{"start":160.143,"end":185.101,"text":"那我會覺得有一點殊難想像,那不管怎麼樣部長說的有道理,當然要依法依規做嘛回去review一下,台水跟他之間的契約該收回來的地,就要收回來那這個是我上一次在總質詢的時候,我也問了那時候部長人不在,是由次長代答的那我也直接請教了卓榮泰院長,因為"},{"start":187.688,"end":216.011,"text":"台南那一邊麗陽光電一樣是一個違法的光電廠情節可能跟高雄比起來是有過之而無不及那當然這個牽涉到違法的部分檢察官起訴那就交由檢察官接下來就刑事責任的部分去處理但是就行政責任的部分我要的問題還是一模一樣昨天院長上次跟我講說他要依法處理那請問現在處理到哪裡"},{"start":220.066,"end":246.883,"text":"那這個是違法騙到的電業籌舍許可啊我們現在就是就行政在處理上面是是是我的那個當時候負責的署長現在已經調到這個我了解這個人事上面的懲處是應該現在我在講的是這個電業籌舍許可是違法取得的我依照行政程序法的規定應該要撤銷我問了好幾次每次都跟我說要依法處理能源署來跟你們講可以來請"},{"start":248.959,"end":277.228,"text":"跟委員報告一下 那個有一些部分就是台南市政府已經查明它的那個原來的那個藥件已經喪失的部分那個部分我們已經處理了 但是等一下等一下 先停一下你處理了多少部分詳細的那個數字我們再回報給委員這邊是撤銷電源籌資的許可嗎就是它有一些它藥件不符的部分我們就可以撤銷它的一些許可比如說什麼時候撤銷的清單的部分我們再補給委員"},{"start":278.43,"end":290.881,"text":"你盡快補好不好我基本上的原則很簡單啦因為如果都是違法的光電廠的話高雄可以廢止沒有道理台南不能夠撤銷嘛"},{"start":292.506,"end":318.144,"text":"要不然的話你會讓大家質疑嘛是不是台南這個立陽光電背後後台比較硬啊所以台南市政府縱容經濟部也不處理因為這件事情拖滿久的這件事情真的拖滿久的我已經兩次總質詢問了嘛那依法處理處理到的進度是什麼剛剛有說已經撤銷了部分那撤銷了哪些部分哪些部分還沒有撤銷理由是什麼一樣"},{"start":319.031,"end":342.291,"text":"會後麻煩順便回覆好嗎?是的好 第三個問題之前我總職權也問了就是說中國洗產地的問題特別是涉及到資訊安全那這是國家安全的問題 知識體大那我們也發現那個深瑞電子之前說什麼"},{"start":343.735,"end":358.968,"text":"什麼資安國家隊、安控國家隊結果沒想到我們的安控國家隊國家隊的表現是丟人現眼真的是丟人現眼我們的安控國家隊台灣的安控國家隊在賣中國的貼牌貨在賣中國的貼牌貨"},{"start":363.613,"end":387.491,"text":"賣中國的貼牌貨我們資通安全研究院今年四月就說了他的監視主機有連線到中國這牽涉到兩個部分一個是資訊傳輸嚴重違反到資訊安全影響國家安全第二個部分我們的國家隊賣中國的貼牌貨丟人現眼真的是丟人現眼"},{"start":389.602,"end":418.715,"text":"我諮詢了以後那個當天卓榮泰院長很驚訝他顯然沒有掌握狀況然後他說他要兩週內全面去清查清查回來了以後跟經濟部有關係的台電有85台台水122台中油31台台電台水中油全部都是我國的關鍵基礎設施那現在這些東西都拆完了嗎"},{"start":424.604,"end":441.068,"text":"報告委員現在這個詳細的數據當然沒有辦法馬上呈現報告給你不過我們有在進行拆除這樣好不好那個部長數字啊您看我的投影片那個數字我整理給你了台電85台 台水122台 中油31台 水利署5台"},{"start":445.595,"end":461.441,"text":"那拆這些東西需要時間我理解但這個涉及到資訊安全而且在關鍵基礎設施輕誤不得所以是不是可以拜託經濟部會後會後每一台裝在哪裡"},{"start":462.521,"end":490.262,"text":"猜了沒有接下來要廠商負什麼責任有一個完整的回覆好嗎好的因為我現在拿到的回覆就是部長看到的這些我只有幾台幾台那裝在哪裡現在處理的進度到哪裡哪些猜了哪些沒有猜給我一個清楚的列表以及後續要打算怎麼跟廠商主張要求他們負起法律責任會後的資料一併給我可以嗎"},{"start":491.167,"end":496.554,"text":"我們會整理資料 向您報告 需要多久一個禮拜 好 沒有問題 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":724,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時55分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席（謝委員衣鳯）：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。高雄大樹違法的光電場引發了軒然大波，高雄那邊很多鄉親也站出來抗議，目前媒體的報導，經濟部的能源署除了裁罰以外，還會廢止它的許可，這件事情是真的嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們已經在昨天正式廢止它的許可，也公告了……"],["黃委員國昌：廢止什麼許可？"],["郭部長智輝：我們也公告了。"],["黃委員國昌：對，廢止什麼許可？電業籌設許可嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：廢止它的施工許可。"],["黃委員國昌：施工許可？那電業籌設許可呢？"],["郭部長智輝：本來它的就已經失效了。"],["黃委員國昌：電業籌設許可早就失效了？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候失效了？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我可以請能源署回答嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：可以，可以，謝謝部長。"],["吳副署長志偉：報告委員，那個案子因為我們籌設許可通常都會給3年，3年之內它來換施工許可，那個部分因為已經超過時效，所以它那個籌設就失效了。"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在是施工許可，接著電業籌設許可，是不是？"],["吳副署長志偉：對。"],["黃委員國昌：現在施工許可已經把它給廢止掉了？"],["吳副署長志偉：對。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，第二個問題，我再請教一下部長，它107筆的土地是跟我們自來水公司租的嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：這107筆土地，自來水公司一年收它多少錢？部長手上有資料嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我現在手上沒有這個資料。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，部長，我跟你講，我現在問的問題，你手上沒有資料，不用回答沒關係，會後請經濟部的同仁書面回復我，這樣好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：好。第二個問題，它把那個地搞成這個樣子，台水要把地收回來嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我想我們會依法、依規來處理啦！"],["黃委員國昌：好，那就請台水回去review一下契約啦！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["黃委員國昌：因為我很難想像把東西租給它，它可以在上面胡搞瞎搞到這樣子的程度，台水如果什麼事情也沒辦法做，地也沒有辦法收回來的話，我會覺得有一點殊難想像。不管怎麼樣，部長說得有道理，當然要依法、依規做嘛，回去review一下台水跟它之間的契約，該收回來的地就要收回來。","另外，我上一次在總質詢的時候也問了，那個時候部長人不在，是由次長代答的，我也直接請教了卓榮泰院長，因為臺南力暘光電一樣是一個違法的光電場，情節可能跟高雄比起來是有過之而無不及，當然，牽涉到違法的部分檢察官已經起訴，那就交由檢察官接下來就刑事責任的部分去處理。但是就行政責任的部分，我要問的問題還是一模一樣，卓榮泰院長上次跟我講說他要依法處理，請問現在處理到哪裡？這個是違法騙到的電業籌設許可喔！"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在就行政處理上面，當時候負責的署長現在已經調到……"],["黃委員國昌：這個我了解，人事上面的懲處是應該，現在我在講的是，這個電業籌設許可是違法取得的，依照行政程序法的規定應該要撤銷，我問了好幾次，每次都跟我說要依法處理。"],["郭部長智輝：好，我請能源署來跟你報告一下。"],["黃委員國昌：可以，來，請。"],["吳副署長志偉：跟委員報告，有一些臺南市政府已經查明它原來的要件已經喪失的部分，那個部分我們已經處理了，但是到現在還有一些……"],["黃委員國昌：等一下，等一下，先停一下。你處理了多少部分？"],["吳副署長志偉：詳細的數字我們再回報給委員……"],["黃委員國昌：是撤銷電業籌設許可嗎？"],["吳副署長志偉：就是它有一些要件不符的部分，我們就可以撤銷它的一些許可，比如說……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候撤銷的？"],["吳副署長志偉：清單的部分我們再補給委員。"],["黃委員國昌：你儘快補，好不好？"],["吳副署長志偉：好。"],["黃委員國昌：基本上我的原則很簡單，如果都是違法的光電場，高雄可以廢止，沒有道理臺南不能夠撤銷嘛！要不然你會讓大家質疑，是不是臺南力暘光電背後後臺比較硬，所以臺南市政府縱容，經濟部也不處理？這件事情拖滿久的，這件事情真的拖滿久的，我已經兩次在總質詢問了嘛！依法處理，處理的進度是什麼？剛剛有說已經撤銷部分，撤銷了哪些部分？哪些還沒有撤銷？理由是什麼？一樣，會後麻煩書面回復，好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：好。第三個問題，之前我總質詢有問中國洗產地的問題，特別是涉及到資訊安全，這是國家安全的問題，茲事體大。我們也發現昇銳電子之前說什麼資安國家隊、安控國家隊，結果沒想到我們安控國家隊的表現是丟人現眼，真的是丟人現眼，我們的安控國家隊、臺灣的安控國家隊，在賣中國的貼牌貨，在賣中國的貼牌貨！它賣中國的貼牌貨，我們資通安全研究院今年4月就說它的監視主機有連線到中國，這牽涉到兩個部分：一個是資訊傳輸嚴重違反到資訊安全，影響國家安全；第二個部分，我們的國家隊賣中國的貼牌貨，丟人現眼，真的是丟人現眼。","我質詢了以後，當天卓榮泰院長很驚訝，他顯然沒有掌握狀況，然後他說他要兩週內全面去清查。清查回來以後，跟經濟部有關係的，台電有85臺、台水122臺、中油31臺。台電、台水、中油全部都是我國的關鍵基礎設施，現在這些東西都拆完了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，當然現在詳細的數據沒有辦法馬上呈現報告給你，不過我們有在進行拆除。"],["黃委員國昌：這樣好不好，部長，你看我的投影片，那個數字我整理給你了，台電85臺、台水122臺、中油31臺、水利署5臺。我理解拆這些東西需要時間，但這個涉及到資訊安全，而且在關鍵基礎設施，輕忽不得，所以是不是可以拜託經濟部，會後把每一臺裝在哪裡、拆了沒有、接下來要廠商負什麼責任，有一個完整的回復，好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["黃委員國昌：因為我現在拿到的回復就是部長看到的這些，我只有幾臺的資料，但裝在哪裡、現在處理的進度到哪裡、哪些拆了、哪些沒有拆，給我一個清楚的列表，以及後續要打算怎麼跟廠商主張、要求他們負起法律責任，會後資料一併給我，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：好，我們會整理資料向您報告。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？"],["郭部長智輝：一個禮拜。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有問題，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們現在請楊瓊瓔委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":464,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-17","speakers":["謝衣鳯","鄭正鈐","林岱樺","張嘉郡","張啓楷","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","陳超明","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","劉書彬","涂權吉","徐欣瑩","葉元之","蔡易餘","呂玉玲","邱議瑩","牛煦庭"],"page_start":397,"meetingDate":["2025-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、農業部部長及中央銀行首長就「因應國際經貿情勢\n變化，如何協助我國產業面對台幣匯率及國際能源價格遽變」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146401_00008"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}