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台電公司肩負穩定全球電力供應之責以強化基礎運作運為如期如質完成基礎大修並精進風險控管並於再生能源佔比持續提高過程確保電力系統穩定。 令積極配合政府能源及淨零轉型政策"},{"start":1963.137,"end":1985.026,"text":"於供給面、電網面及需求面持續推動各項計畫在供給面進行多元能源開發並優先擴大再生能源發展除持續推動新增燃氣機組計畫114年度包括新建兩部機組大潭一部機組及台中一部機組將陸續上線至119年預計新增16部機組"},{"start":1990.208,"end":2008.499,"text":"總裝置容量達1244萬千瓦外亦以零碳為目標優先擴大自有再生能源開發114年包括自辦離岸風力二期工作及配合地熱發展規劃精進現有仁喆發電廠並加以擴廠更啟動與台中、谷關、新北"},{"start":2016.583,"end":2038.378,"text":"黃山等區域進行地熱探勘盤點全台地熱潛能區規劃引進多部國際生技機具加入探勘不論離岸風電或地熱項目皆採取多元模式全力投入開發以支持全國2026年再生能源發電占比至少20%電網面持續強化電網韌性"},{"start":2043.902,"end":2073.425,"text":"提升電網體質、改變公司以減少停電、快速復電、園區穩定供電、改善送電瓶頸、長期提升電網體質為目標以分散、強固及防衛等三大推動主軸持續推動強化電網韌性建設計畫並於117年優先完成關鍵區域以及與民生相關的關鍵工程,另外提升供電可靠度"},{"start":2074.992,"end":2094.213,"text":"針對人口成長、用電成長以及設備老化等指標綜合評估以風險程度盤點完成紅黃綠三區針對風險程度較高的區域及早投入資源以強化配電電系統改善此外推動45項再生能源"},{"start":2094.933,"end":2118.501,"text":"加強電力網工程包含離岸風電7站7線以及太陽光電9站10線可以有效增加再生能源並網量需求面經濟需求面管理並落實深度節能台電公司持續進行需要需求面管理措施配合再生能源發展調整電價的尖風尖離風時間同時位於"},{"start":2121.172,"end":2126.707,"text":"民間和用戶共同努力一體尖峰用電推出各項虛量反應"},{"start":2129.063,"end":2147.53,"text":"負載管理措施引導用戶調整用電令推動深度節能計劃113年已扮演46戶國公營、事業等大型醫院包括中油、中鋼、三總等用電大戶的節能診斷在所有先行市場域的68%有效協助國家節電目標114年將繼續深化協助本部擴大"},{"start":2154.733,"end":2157.377,"text":"推動節能措施有助於我國達成116年節電206億度的目標二、確保財務永續推動"},{"start":2165.796,"end":2185.809,"text":"各項重大電力建設,近年來受二污戰爭的影響,國際燃料價格大漲,秉承政府穩定物價,照顧民生及弱勢族群政策,台電公司主動將民生用電採取低調幅或動漲,平均每度民生電價"},{"start":2188.061,"end":2204.892,"text":"2.77元,跟成本每度差1元以上,方才導致台電公司每年吸收民生用電成本800至1000億,111年至113年吸收民生用電成本逾2800億,是台電公司巨額虧損的主要原因。"},{"start":2206.596,"end":2229.466,"text":"為繼續提供民生較輕省的電價又兼顧台電公司的財務穩健爭取於113年及114年分別編列1000億元預算撥補台電公司以利台電公司永續經營且持續推動各項重大電力建設提供社會大眾穩定電力營業收支及盈虧114年度預算編"},{"start":2232.917,"end":2235.479,"text":"編收入1兆47億8,529萬元支出9,970億4,856萬元本期淨利77億3,673億元較113年度預算淨損"},{"start":2253.879,"end":2262.849,"text":"1887億454萬元增加了1964億4127萬元主要是電力費收入增加以及中央政府補助全民電費"},{"start":2264.198,"end":2268.52,"text":"政府補助收入增加等所致投資計劃及資金來源114年度編列構建固定資產投資計劃預算2689億8820萬元其中專案計劃編列1456億4578萬元"},{"start":2282.11,"end":2288.615,"text":"一般建築及設備計畫編列1233億4242萬元資金來源除了582億8920萬元以自有資金支應之外其餘2106億9900萬元向國內外借款籌措二、台水公司"},{"start":2307.793,"end":2335.105,"text":"為穩定國內民生及工業用水強化水質安全避免極端氣候造成供水缺口以及提高供水韌性灘水公司持續以開源、節流、調度、備源等四大主軸作為穩定供水的策略並落實政府照顧民眾之精神具以推動114年度各項重點工作如下依重要業務措施多元水源開發今年"},{"start":2336.42,"end":2358.701,"text":"漢牢平船導致水庫、川流及地下水等傳統水源穩定性不足為穩定供水、台水公司將以開發多元化水源分散風險114年將完成烏溪四萬噸浮流水開發及南化附線等工程並持續推動海水淡化以及水井抽附工程"},{"start":2359.861,"end":2386.877,"text":"以提升水源調度能力二提升淨水廠處理效率台水公司旗下有478處淨水廠部分設備已逐漸老化將依據效益分階段推動淨水廠的現代化設備改造規劃於114年度完成山上林莊及鳥嘴潭三處淨水廠改善及擴建以確保"},{"start":2387.907,"end":2399.63,"text":"水的品質以及效率 持續降低漏水 台水公司將持續降低漏水率計劃以節約水資源114年度編列72.55億元預計淘汰管線長達718公里目標在114年度"},{"start":2409.01,"end":2433.201,"text":"114年底將漏水率降至到11.55%是強化調度備援為因應氣候變遷的供水挑戰臺水公司將投入61.15億元計劃增強單一重要脆弱等維生管線備援能力並在114年度完成4條備援幹線鋪設5提供供水率普及"},{"start":2435.1,"end":2446.845,"text":"提供供水普及率,臺水公司預計從114年至118年配合推動無自來水地區供水改善計畫第5期,114年度預算編列15.3億元以期債114年改善3600戶的供水服務。"},{"start":2453.442,"end":2459.966,"text":"第二大項營業收支及盈虧114年度預算編列收入328億9565萬元支出388億2919萬元虧損59億3354萬元較113年度預算虧損22億6662萬元增加虧損36億6692萬元主要系給水收入減少動力費、外包費、利息及折舊等支出增加所致"},{"start":2483.682,"end":2486.283,"text":"投資計畫及資金來源114年度預算構建固定資產投資計畫編列294億7302萬元其中專案計畫編列218億2058萬元一般建築及設備"},{"start":2501.391,"end":2505.455,"text":"計劃編列76億5244萬元資金來源除了121億6916萬元向國內銀行借貸外其173億386萬元以自有資金支應。敬請各位委員支持與指教。謝謝。好,謝謝公務長。公務長請回座。"},{"start":2528.645,"end":2532.501,"text":"接下來請台灣電力公司請鄭文森董事長報告"},{"start":2542.334,"end":2559.26,"text":"主席各位委員大家早安今天審查台電公司114年預算本人有機會在這邊代表台電公司來跟大院報告114年度的經營概況以下分六大面向來做說明"},{"start":2560.427,"end":2576.576,"text":"首先第一個是有關於確保穩定供電跟強化電網韌性的部分那台電公司持續在改更新改建就是高效的複旋環燃氣機組那增加機組的運轉可靠度同時也提高那個高效的發電占比"},{"start":2577.296,"end":2595.083,"text":"在此同時我們配合電力交易平台擴大電力供給面的同時活絡各種能源的多樣化把分散的民間電力資源能夠引進電力市場整合成為可以調控的電力能夠更有效且實惠的方式共同來協助電力的系統穩定"},{"start":2597.123,"end":2622.291,"text":"電網方面,台電公司加速推動電網強韌建設計畫,會優先完成關鍵設施包括機場、車站、醫院、產業園區等等。同時,也將民生相關的關鍵工程包括線路跟設備的預防維護檢測列為優先加強保護跟汰換配電系統等系統改善工程。在區域調度中心會導入EMS系統,"},{"start":2623.231,"end":2645.818,"text":"提升自動化能力並迅速隔離故障點、縮短停電的時間為了要因應天然災害導致偏鄉部落道路中斷的時候電力修復的時間比較長我們也在跟地方政府研商建置防災行為電網強化整體的電力韌性有關於用戶服務方面主要分兩個大的部分第一個是高壓以上的用戶"},{"start":2646.798,"end":2670.031,"text":"我們會透過高壓用戶服務的入口網站提供各項的包含契約容量、電費試算等等的視覺化分析圖表協助這些大用電戶的電能管理那對於低壓的用戶我們有加裝AMI我們就可以透過台灣電力APP然後可以取得電子帳單的服務同時也可以讓個別的用戶"},{"start":2671.031,"end":2699.43,"text":"取得及時的用電資訊來引導節電等等相關各種的措施那在經濟需求面管理的部分我們現在持續的運用各種的數據分析來篩選跟推廣各種可以參與需量管理的用戶那也會優先協助國公營事業還有醫院這些相關的機構優先的導入各種節電潛力的評估落實政府節電的計畫"},{"start":2701.051,"end":2719.748,"text":"那在第三個部分有關於推動能源轉型跟邁向淨零的目標那台電公司作為一個供電公司我們有三個面向需要同時做管理就是分別是供電需求以及介於中間的電網的三大面向那目標是朝向先低碳再零碳的方向來前進"},{"start":2720.549,"end":2743.516,"text":"那台電公司自己也在推動有關光電、離岸風電、地韌等等再生能源的開發同時透過燃氣的橋接來配合再生能源的滲透率的提高那也加速減碳的一些相關的工作那除此之外我們也會提前布局投入包括類似氫能等等的混燒、碳補桌等等相關的前瞻技術"},{"start":2744.236,"end":2770.989,"text":"希望能夠透過這些新的淨零技術早日達成淨零減碳的目標那除此之外有非常多的綠電基本上發電以後需要有妥善的併網環境那台電公司是持續加強推動各種的再生能源的電力網工程那能夠加速併網等等的工作提高我們再生能源的供應量那也因為如此所以我們在今年"},{"start":2772.55,"end":2789.472,"text":"2024年度明年編制的預算裡面,台電的受電量事實上因為透過電網轉供的關係,所以台電的受電量的成長本身並不會很多,可是整個系統的供電量事實上是會維持一定程度的成長。"},{"start":2790.533,"end":2815.274,"text":"除此之外第四個面向就是導入了數位科技擴大數位應用等等的一些相關的服務在基礎面上面台電現在為了因應數位轉型的大數據需求我們也透過我們的一些相關的空間的建置建置了雲端的資料中心也推動台電公司的資料治理希望透過這些新的資料治理的方式"},{"start":2815.894,"end":2837.191,"text":"以及我們新的各種電力設備發電跟用電等等的資訊的收集能夠導入AI的系統加強未來整個智慧電網的調控等等相關的一些工作第5個面向是有關於經營績效提升確保財務永續的部分"},{"start":2837.771,"end":2853.264,"text":"那這個部分就是有關於台電的財務以及我們電費等等相關的問題其實這段時間以來討論非常非常的多那簡而言之其實台電過去這兩三年來並沒有辦法在電價上面完全反映"},{"start":2854.225,"end":2872.661,"text":"國際能源價格上漲所帶動的成本提升我們因為還漲的關係所以有累積了一些虧損需要彌平我們希望這一個部分能夠得到大院的支持就是有關於台電相關的一些補貼的預算也希望大院的委員能夠"},{"start":2874.537,"end":2896.128,"text":"透過尋答瞭解臺電實際的財務狀況以及過去虧損造成的理由能夠給予臺電公司一定程度的財務支持第6個部分是有關於促進永續經營跟提升人力價值的部分我想永續發展大概是整個電力轉型最關鍵的一個核心目標它也是一個普世價值"},{"start":2897.108,"end":2921.395,"text":"那台電公司透過完善的一個永續治理的架構我們會持續的來關注氣候風險對決各項的倡議跟指標來檢討台電內部各項的工作是不是符合永續的目標那同時也透過這些檢視來提升我們自己永續經營的韌性那對於永續發展的一些相關的議題尤其是"},{"start":2921.975,"end":2934.762,"text":"大家關心電力建設所影響的環境永續的問題台電公司會透過公開透明的原則揭露必要的消息也希望能夠調合各項的利害關係人權益能夠讓我們的永續經營更有競爭力"},{"start":2939.544,"end":2951.597,"text":"最後還有一個關鍵的是,台電公司這幾年來也面對到了人員的加速的退休跟新的增補,所以面對多元的面向的人力我們會"},{"start":2953.106,"end":2967.123,"text":"藉由校園的紮根還有拓展跟學界的合作提前來布局延攬電業發展所需要的人才那另外因應未來趨勢變化我們也會將台電公司所需要的各項專業的訓練"},{"start":2969.746,"end":2985.96,"text":"讓能夠更紮實的推動同時也規劃建置相關的徵照制度來要求同仁接受各種各項新的訓練提升自己的專業技能那在"},{"start":2987.632,"end":3016.696,"text":"對未來的發展上面我們希望臺電公司透過人力的更新進步以及各項技術的提升能夠提供臺灣一個穩定永續而具有韌性的電力環境以上報告謝謝謝謝臺灣電力公司中央政府董事長針對經營該方的報告接著請臺灣電力公司王耀廷總經理針對111算該方做報告"},{"start":3024.434,"end":3049.946,"text":"主席、各位委員、大家好今天適逢大院審查臺電公司114年度的營業預算本人以下請就臺電公司113年度的預算執行情形還有就是114年度的營業預算的內容做一個簡要報告那首先報告113年度預算的執行情形在供售電量的這個產銷情形方面113年度到9月底子我們累計的供電量是1898億度"},{"start":3053.047,"end":3059.675,"text":"達到全年預算2587億度的73%那113年度到9月底累計的售電量是1795億度也達到全年度預算2445億度的73%那其次在收支盈虧方面113年度截止到9月底"},{"start":3074.851,"end":3101.379,"text":"雖然國際的燃料價格有稍微回穩但是比起二五戰爭前仍然高出許多113年度我們在4月跟10月起雖然電價做了兩次的調漲但是仍然低於我們的成本導致台電公司目前仍持續虧損未來台電公司除了努力降低營運成本之外我們仍然需要政府的預算補助才能逐步改善我們的財務困境"},{"start":3103.393,"end":3108.377,"text":"114年度預算編列情形公售電產銷營業目標114年度計劃售電量2450億度比113年度預算售電量2440億度增加5億度這是考量預估明年經濟狀況配合用電需求來做估編"},{"start":3128.294,"end":3139.74,"text":"同樣在供電量方面是2,607億度比上年度的預算供電量2,587億度我們增加了20億度那一樣都是配合這個受電量的需求來顧邊"},{"start":3142.16,"end":3154.288,"text":"除此之外在營業收支及營餘方面的估計方面114年度的預算總收入是1兆448億元總支出是9971億元收支相抵之後預計的稅前盈利淨利是77億元比上年度的預算虧損1887億元我們淨利增加了1964億元"},{"start":3168.098,"end":3183.731,"text":"電費收入有增加另外就是中央政府的編列補助全民電費1000億的收入除此之外,台電公司為了配合經濟發展政府的政策以及用電需求讓我們持續開發電源並且進行電網投資114年度的固定資產投資計劃總共編列了2690億元其中專案計劃編列1457億元"},{"start":3195.06,"end":3201.806,"text":"另外一般建築及設備計劃是編列1233億元在財務方面我們114年度台電公司預計我們舉借長期借款有3290億元作為來支應固定資產的建設改良擴充還有就是借款還本之用那預計我們還本是1185億元"},{"start":3219.7,"end":3240.891,"text":"最後,臺電身為國營試驗以穩定供電為首要任務,我們將實際辦理機組更新改建、電網強韌以及部件儲能、智慧電網等等,來開發解禁電力,強化再生能源,來確保供電穩定。另外,為了邁向2050年近年轉型目標,我們會在電力供給、電網及用戶"},{"start":3242.592,"end":3264.378,"text":"用電的需求等三大面向逐步來達到全體的淨零目標。 台電公司業務成本各位委員的鼎力支持我們今後仍將繼續請各位委員來給我們指導讓電業的經營能夠不斷繼續發展經濟以及增進全面福祉貢獻新力以上報告敬請各位委員的支持及指教謝謝大家"},{"start":3268.971,"end":3279.502,"text":"謝謝台電公司王耀廷總經理針對台電營業預算概況做的報告。接下來請台灣自來水公司董事長李江董事長針對經營概況做報告。"},{"start":3288.408,"end":3309.678,"text":"主席、各位委員、大院今天審查臺水公司114年度預算本人有機會就公司110年度的經營概況向各位委員會提出報告自感榮幸臺水公司堅固提供量足自由自來水質鏈物多年來積極致力於民生及工業用水質供應請就114年度經營概況收明如下"},{"start":3310.518,"end":3324.49,"text":"一、建制調度備援幹管提升區域供水調配彈性,為強化水資源調度及備援能力。二、台水公司奉行政院合併推動備援幹管復建工程計畫,其成在110-115年,投入199.5億元,預計完成17條備援管線,完成後每日約可維持穩定供水量261萬。"},{"start":3336.661,"end":3359.05,"text":"立方公示,臺水公司亦配合水利署執行的增速串相關的工程,包括北部石門水庫至新竹聯通管的計畫,中部臺中至營林區域水源調度管線改善計畫及大安大甲溪聯通管工程計畫,山南部正文南化聯通管工程,完成後將有效。"},{"start":3360.148,"end":3381.133,"text":"提升供水穩定及水資源應用效力二、善用資訊科技持續降低漏水為健全供水管管系統提升供水品質及減少水資源浪費降低漏水力為臺水公司重大且持續性的工作現行降低漏水力計畫102至113年以12年間投入了經費1,003億元推動降漏相關工作"},{"start":3388.354,"end":3412.201,"text":"漏水率已由101年底的19.55%降至112年底的12.54%亦即113年底降到目標12%以下下階段降低漏水率114到121年除依循全期計畫之執行成果與經驗積極降漏再增加維護管理執行重點"},{"start":3414.926,"end":3433.275,"text":"該計劃將以8年間再籌入經費808億元,預計121年底漏水利降至9.77%以下,每年可節省約5910萬立方公尺的水量,約相當於1.17座湖山水庫有效的汐水容量。"},{"start":3434.735,"end":3455.628,"text":"推動現代化淨水廠提升營業效能,臺水公司各型淨水廠共有478處,部分淨水廠因營業多年,設備逐漸老化,故即需逐年編列預算更新或汰換淨水廠處理設備,其仍符合水質標準穩定未來供水需求。"},{"start":3456.768,"end":3482.1,"text":"經台水公司評估篩選出即期更新改善的進水廠共計21處其中短期已設備汰換既有建築物補強者亦即已115年以前完成改善11處的進水廠中長期需拆除重建或新建者有10處現正依其程辦理可行性研究等作業"},{"start":3483.28,"end":3504.535,"text":"是加速無自來水地區供水改善提高供水普及率。 台水公司為上進企業社會責任近年已除夕辦理配合經濟部水利署無自來水地區供水改善計畫改善偏遠地區用水。 截至113年6月底,台水公司的供水普及率達95.08%。"},{"start":3511.632,"end":3538.173,"text":"為持續改善及提升無自來水住戶的飲用水品質及配合政府照顧偏鄉政策經濟部水利署已於今年再提無自來水地區供水改善計畫第5期業奉行政院合定計畫期程114到118年台水公司將根系配合辦理自來水的沿管工程執行經費計75億元總收益戶一估有1.5萬戶"},{"start":3541.38,"end":3566.861,"text":"實踐前流程水安全確保供水品質,為提升供水安全,海水公司參考世界衛生組織 及國際水協 推動水安全做法,訂定水安全計畫施行要點,辦理水源端到用戶端各環節風險的鑑別改善及確效,執行水質多重屏障管理,以確保"},{"start":3568.561,"end":3571.73,"text":"以確保全流程水安全及供水品質"},{"start":3573.457,"end":3586.706,"text":"6.推動淨零排放,減反極端氣候衝擊。 台水公司經營發展與自然環境息息相關,沿成立淨零轉型小組。 原定1."},{"start":3586.706,"end":3588.327,"text":"提升人員效率2."},{"start":3588.327,"end":3589.788,"text":"發展綠色人員3."},{"start":3589.788,"end":3592.07,"text":"推動綠色辦公4."},{"start":3592.07,"end":3594.291,"text":"提供綠色服務5."},{"start":3594.291,"end":3601.696,"text":"加強綠色生產及支援有效利用等五項淨零策略。 台水公司參照環境部溫室氣體減量目標。"},{"start":3603.537,"end":3608.743,"text":"以分別訂定短中期檢探目標,後續將持續進行滾動檢討,朝139年達到淨領排放的長期目標邁進。歷行徵收檢資改善財務結構"},{"start":3622.967,"end":3646.906,"text":"臺水公司配合經濟部水利署辦理水源調度政策執行各式重要投資工程及專案計畫致責救逐年增加又受升息及動力會增加影響導致營運成本節節上升面對經營困境未改善財務狀況臺水公司除定期召開經營收支控管會議"},{"start":3648.862,"end":3652.9,"text":"針對各項年度可控的費用收入預算科目進行管控"},{"start":3654.558,"end":3677.812,"text":"並加強發展各項開眼節流措施。 在開眼方面,臺水公司沿體火化不動產,發展太陽能延遜中心出租及代訓等相關措施,暨其增加公司收入。 在節流方面,臺水公司在滿足民生及經濟發展首席的用水避免切水危機的前提下,"},{"start":3678.942,"end":3696.46,"text":"乃沿體降低沿侵水採購成本節約動力會支出節省債務利息等相關措施以蹲劫支出以上僅向各位委員報告台水公司經營概況敬請各位委員鼎力支持並請不任指教"},{"start":3698.976,"end":3709.715,"text":"好,謝謝台水公司李家洋董事長針對基因概況所作的報告最後請台水公司李丁的總計針對一月預算概況作報告"},{"start":3715.917,"end":3743.132,"text":"主席、各位委員、信封大院審查臺水公司114年度預算定來的列席報告自感榮幸臺水公司113年度預算執行情形及114年度營業預算內容檢要如後,敬請指教與支持113年度預算執行情形產交情形銷售水量截至10月底銷售水量為21.3億立方公尺為前年預算之81.43%生產水量截至10月底供水量為"},{"start":3745.054,"end":3762.595,"text":"26.87億立方公尺為全年預算之82%收支盈虧截至10月底總收入為286.22億元總支出為315.31億元稅金虧損29.09億元主要原因是再生水、節水等政策影響受水收入未如預期"},{"start":3764.668,"end":3789.033,"text":"連續3年電價調漲及利率維持高檔增加動力會及利息支出各項工程完工加入營運自責就會增加214年度預算編列情形主要營運目標銷售水量114年度計劃售水量為25.4億立方公尺較113年度減少0.77億立方公尺主要是考量在生水政策及用水需求編列"},{"start":3791.006,"end":3804.421,"text":"計劃生產水量114年度計劃供水量為31.6億立方公尺較130度減少1.15億立方公尺主要是配合受水量及降低漏水計劃成果所編列營業收支及盈虧114年度預計總收入為328.9億元總支出為"},{"start":3811.448,"end":3831.843,"text":"388.29億元預計稅前虧損59.34億元主要是給水收入減少、動力費、外包、利息及折舊等增加固定資產投資計畫,台水公司會配合經濟發展政府政策及用水需求持續辦理降低洞水域及各項設施、新構建等工程固定資產投資計畫共294.73億元"},{"start":3835.515,"end":3838.257,"text":"營運資金來源預計舉借之長期借款為411億元主要是支運、償還救災及固定資產"},{"start":3844.994,"end":3870.564,"text":"投資建設改良所用,預計償還到期長期債務283.1億元,為提供用戶量足自由自來水。台水公司將積極落實各項策略及盡辦理各項執行計畫,提升國民生活水準,促進經濟發展。以上報告,敬請各位支持與指教。好,謝謝台水公司理念總經理報告。"},{"start":3871.611,"end":3883.378,"text":"這上面報告的各位官員今天不要整本照念可以的話則重點來做清楚的說明如果整本照念的話我用看的就好了好這個"},{"start":3888.064,"end":3903.516,"text":"現在要開始進行詢答委員諮詢之前與主席願意做以下宣告本會委員發言時間本會委員6分鐘要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘上午10點截止登記"},{"start":3907.597,"end":3932.438,"text":"為了讓會議能夠順利進行以及每位委員發言的時間的公平性另外不要影響下位委員發言的權益在每位委員執行時間結束之後主席會立即請諮議委員停止諮詢請各位委員能夠配合感謝我們先確定上次議事錄請問各位同仁上次會議議事錄有錯誤"},{"start":3934.025,"end":3952.577,"text":"沒有,我們就確定上次議事錄好,接著現在進行詢答第一位委員請陳庭薇委員我們請那個台電董事長台電政董事長還有我們經濟部長經濟部郭部長"},{"start":3962.62,"end":3985.09,"text":"謝謝部長我想我們一直都在關心我們地方的問題在上一次的質詢我已經要求你們要去抓出這幕後的黑手為什麼我們台南的天然氣發電廠都可以橫著走但是好像我們也沒有得到中央有任何的訊息"},{"start":3986.854,"end":4009.591,"text":"我必須再正式跟我們部長再把所有的資料再review一次寶春在台南開說明會我不知道寶春現在是到哪一個階段到處開說明會善話也開、觀點也開、麻豆也開他在開什麼啊然後搞得人心惶惶所有的里長都反對"},{"start":4010.97,"end":4038.564,"text":"然後問他說請問你們要設在哪裡不知道然後勉勉強強說我要設在善化好善化我們也去找出這個土地在哪裡台台沒有同意台台沒有同意喔土地沒有同意我特別去調了你們在發電的整個申請設置的過程跟流程好我們現在來看寶川"},{"start":4041.687,"end":4054.773,"text":"目前籌設的相關計畫書送了嗎?那個我們的董事長送了嗎?那個報告委員因為這個不會是台灣公司主管"},{"start":4055.435,"end":4057.277,"text":"跟委員報告我們是民事合約不是這些政府管制事項"},{"start":4075.018,"end":4103.465,"text":"對啊 你們是合約嘛才能跟你們進行採購招標嘛 對不對要有這六大文件嘛 對不對董事長你要說清楚啦 是不是兩個事情啦齁 你講的是六大文件這個六大文件是他要拿到電業當然相關執照的時候六大文件要跟台電取得一個合約的關係他不見得完成啦齁就是他要興建完成我們的合約好 那要跟你拿到合約到底要到什麼階段"},{"start":4104.685,"end":4121.781,"text":"他要拿什麼東西來跟你申請合約他參加我們的招標要參加招標嗎那要拿哪些文件才能參加招標這個有不同的階段有不同的規定那基本上六大文件是他要拿到他的電業執照的時候六大文件要齊備"},{"start":4123.112,"end":4141.353,"text":"當然那招標到底我要拿到哪些資料招標有部分的時間它可以候補就是環評當然可以候補嘛那哪些是一定要拿到你說環評跟地方政府的同意函可以候補但是投射計畫書要不要有要有嗎"},{"start":4143.956,"end":4165.712,"text":"要不要有還是都可以候補跟委員報告他這個籌設計畫書這都是要送主管機關去審查的啦對嘛我知道就是他要跟你來進行招標的時候這些文件要不要備齊嗎要不要目前為止不需要就是現在不需要所以都不需要聽我講完不需要籌設也不需要環評也不需要地方統一書也不需要然後咧然後發電廠的電源線引接統一行要不要"},{"start":4171.988,"end":4172.909,"text":"發言委員 您講的這些東西都要確定才能跟你們申請這個相關的合約嘛 對不對 所以我說有兩個階段嘛"},{"start":4187.944,"end":4208.744,"text":"但是要跟你們申請這個合約一定要把這些籌建籌設的計畫書還有我們的這個發電廠的土地同意書還有我們的這個發電廠的電源線引接同意函對不對還有我們天然氣的供應的同意函"},{"start":4211.266,"end":4232.304,"text":"參與投標要有這些文件對這些基本文件嘛起碼環評跟同意案你說那兩樣可以厚補可是這四樣是基本一定要拿到的這是他投標的時候要送來但是他們還沒有參與投標裡面總是沒有人民的同意書嘛人民同意書是在籌設的部分嘛地方的審核嘛對不對地方政府的同意書"},{"start":4233.348,"end":4247.521,"text":"所以,台電如果依照這樣,寶春有送了這個合約了嗎?沒有嗎?那個,我們沒有開這個,就我們開的標,他沒有來投標,就沒有送這些東西所以就沒有嗎?所以到目前為止是沒有的,對不對?"},{"start":4248.702,"end":4267.087,"text":"沒有嗎?目前為止沒有來投標嗎?來董事長麥克風講清楚到目前為止寶春有沒有來我們的台電針對我們台南的發電廠的這些相關資料來進行招標有沒有目前他們沒有來投標沒有嗎?沒有投標好來部長很清楚他沒有投標也沒有這些相關的資料那請問他在開什麼說明會啊?"},{"start":4278.473,"end":4303.914,"text":"報告委員 這個可能是在環評上面 錯了 他也沒送環評他也沒送環評阿 他所有的資料都沒有阿 他在送什麼 他沒有送環評來 部長 土地同意書都沒有拿到了 他是要設在哪裡阿他開什麼環評阿 環評要不要土地同意書 要不要 要阿"},{"start":4309.793,"end":4332.091,"text":"環評要不要土地同意書跟委員報告一下他這個說明環評要不要土地同意書你不要再跟我這樣說來說去啦環評要不要土地同意書啦需要需要嘛土地同意書台堂都沒有同意請問他設在哪裡講不清楚說不明白他在開什麼說明會他在開什麼說明會部長這很嚴重欸造成地方的恐慌"},{"start":4339.582,"end":4342.383,"text":"他是誰在讓他靠我不知道但是他已經過分了亂開通造成地方的困擾第一時間在善化的時候也是胡搞瞎搞我們已經邀集相關單位去到現場已經跟他說了現在他開得更大從善化開到關鐵開到麻豆"},{"start":4369.676,"end":4376.721,"text":"所有的資料都沒有都沒有耶最重要的土地同意書都沒有他到底要設在哪裡大家都不知道"},{"start":4381.584,"end":4404.551,"text":"用騙的嗎?報告委員我想這個集會的這個過程齁那主管單位應該不是經濟部所以我們會要求這個地方主管單位來瞭解一下對啦現在都不是對現在都不是因為現在大家都在推皮球但是都說用電很重要那我都不知道難道用電重要就讓這些電廠橫著走嗎來部長我再請教一下申辦"},{"start":4411.798,"end":4435.664,"text":"申報第一期欠地方21.6億的回饋金這很清楚了當時候在環評裡面是要求是要當時候我們整個收入不是淨值喔 是收入我們售電收入不是淨值喔售電收入這樣算起來就是21.6億的回饋金"},{"start":4438.38,"end":4453.509,"text":"結果21.6億的回饋金現在一起欠我們這麼多你們沒有人敢處理現在居然申辦還可以用二期要沿用一期的管線再用50年沒有安全評估"},{"start":4455.123,"end":4470.596,"text":"也沒有給我們回覆也沒有給我們答案然後再來專案型電協金因為我們的整個電業法裡面有說專案型電協金是年度電協金的30%完全淪為電廠的小金庫他在修理反對的聲音媒體都爆了喔媒體都爆了喔這一家電廠是某人的小金庫喔是誰的小金庫去查清楚"},{"start":4481.064,"end":4483.605,"text":"謝謝主席,我想請郭部長請進一步,郭部長"},{"start":4517.844,"end":4530.798,"text":"委員長部長早安我想請教一下為什麼原本預計12月台電要在美國場舉辦新場的完工典禮為什麼取消"},{"start":4533.128,"end":4554.377,"text":"這個可能要問台積電真的嗎?你沒去了解嗎?台積電不是經濟部的子公司啦所以我當然知道你不是不是你們經濟部的子公司啊但是半導體相關的產業是台灣重要的命脈你上次說張忠謀董事長說全球化已死"},{"start":4555.197,"end":4561.867,"text":"你認同是不是?那台積電的我們台灣的人才他們想要去美國設廠嗎?"},{"start":4564.212,"end":4584.879,"text":"我們現在跟委員報告我們走向世界這個是必要的一個過程因為世界都需要台積電對台積電走向世界這是一個必然的一個現象但是因為台積電自有的我們現在台灣台積電大概整個加起來有8萬的員工"},{"start":4587.826,"end":4611.511,"text":"我們台灣委員應該很清楚台積電幾乎在未來的十幾年應該如果按照他們的計畫這個可能當然是台積電自己報告了據我們側邊因為我們必須要準備水、電各方面給他我們自己討論的結果台積電很有可能一年在台灣蓋一個廠"},{"start":4613.809,"end":4627.189,"text":"所以我們都必須要為台積電的這樣的一個繁榮給以祝福其實台灣但是你必須要了解台灣的高科技人才也許他們不想要離開而且"},{"start":4629.252,"end":4643.826,"text":"美國的這種勞動的文化跟台灣也有大部分的差異所以在台積電在台灣所製造的這樣子相關的優勢能不能複製到美國會不會水土不合"},{"start":4645.229,"end":4669.467,"text":"對不對報告委員是這樣子就我們所了解的部分因為文化的不一樣然後作業又要求要一樣這裡面當然有一些認知的差異所以當初這個美國大概派了700位工程師來台灣訓練訓練完了又回去那麼台灣本來去的人大概也是五六百個人去"},{"start":4670.228,"end":4685.505,"text":"那我想這些都是一個新廠特別是在海外必須要有的部分因為這個半導體廠非常非常的複雜非常非常複雜他除了使用設備之外他個人的對半導體的知識"},{"start":4686.986,"end":4710.24,"text":"跟他的經驗非常重要如果你今天從事的是一個先端科技的話幾乎沒有標準作業程序也就是說沒有SOP的那這種這個部分我想委員應該很清楚他在美國美國用的大概都是先端的技術其實這種先端技術在台灣其實也非常的少也非常的少"},{"start":4710.72,"end":4733.762,"text":"那麼台積電投資那麼多的錢要兩三百億美金這個錢我相信他們會很審慎他們也希望在海外的廠能夠快速的成功所以這裡面他們非常的複雜好太複雜了我們講簡單的為什麼取消回到原題為什麼取消是不是川普對於台積電"},{"start":4735.163,"end":4762.096,"text":"他當初就說我們是偷他的晶片嘛是不是他要對台積電科與重稅那我們都到美國去了我想要問台積電就是美國晶片法給予台積電的補償有沒有拿到?拿到了有拿到是不是那為什麼這個完工典禮為什麼沒有照時的舉行是不是新的川普政府對於台積電不會像過去一樣這麼支持?"},{"start":4763.857,"end":4779.047,"text":"報導委員這個台積電在亞利桑那這個場事實上是在川普上一任的時代的時候所做的決定的所以這個應該川普都不參加我不太清楚這個可能要台積電來做決定這樣"},{"start":4781.408,"end":4808.233,"text":"所以川普就不參加還有我下一個問題是為什麼我想要請問我們現在稅前這是1到9月台電的損益表如果昨天在省追加預算1000億那如果我們撥補是在收入裡面那代表了台電的這個是不是今年就會有盈餘了那為什麼明年還要1000億"},{"start":4810.87,"end":4823.858,"text":"因為是有累積虧損存在那我想在他的資產上面資產負債表上面可以明確的來看得出來所以我們應該是這樣就是說他過去累積目前還有3000多億還有3000多億的這個虧損這個會影響他的財務"},{"start":4827.58,"end":4831.504,"text":"你今年已經漲電價了欸你趕快轉頭看看他們兩位今年已經給人家漲兩次電價了欸你看看去年的稅前盈餘在同期的時候是負1500多億欸你今年已經縮減到負278億欸"},{"start":4851.604,"end":4856.865,"text":"你現在要來跟人家要錢如果給你追加一千億你就已經盈餘啦那你明年度那你說 什麼樣的狀況下你明年度不會賺錢如果我們今年給你一千億你要講嘛你要討錢要有道理嘛 對不對"},{"start":4870.409,"end":4881.995,"text":"當然 報告委員 現在這是這樣就是說立法院的一層額是來幫助我們的債務的經營更好幫助我們債務經營更好 我去跟人家求情 利息就可以更便宜我們的利息經營不太好 所以我們盡量改善債務經營 先說我們看過期有什麼趨勢 過期的趨勢裡面我們要買材料要想幾 我們醫藥材料想辦法"},{"start":4899.665,"end":4902.566,"text":"今天給你一千億,為什麼一定有盈餘啊?為什麼明年還要給你一千億?你講不出來啊,對不對?報告委員,這是這樣,過去三年,我們已經知道了,過去的氣氛比較多,我們的民間的電,我們現在都動輒你今年就賺錢了,我們今年這一千億通過的話,你就賺錢了"},{"start":4928.218,"end":4953.285,"text":"你如果賺錢的話,你明年有什麼要跟別人討錢?對不對?還有什麼?這個補助的部分,事實上是在補他的這個虧損的部分所以你說補助現在他賺錢,但是他不是實力上面的賺錢不是他自己的能力的賺錢所以我們在補過去的3000多億,事實上明年"},{"start":4954.305,"end":4967.2,"text":"你講不出來啦!你講不出來啦!你這個人你就賺錢啦!你給人家賺一千元你就賺錢啦!沒有啦!沒賺錢啦!你自己當你算小算什麼!你是企業家你最清楚了啦!我非常清楚!幫我委員這個部分齁!"},{"start":4969.622,"end":4986.83,"text":"我們在補過去的虧損補過去的虧損讓我們在財務上面我們還是要繼續借錢我們當然非常的努力我們要非常的努力讓明年是可以賺錢的但是這個賺錢還是沒有辦法補過去虧損的部分我在問你最後一個問題美國現在他們已經說了核電要增加兩倍預計2050年前要增加"},{"start":4999.275,"end":4999.536,"text":"臺灣的核能政策"},{"start":5010.504,"end":5010.644,"text":"臺灣的核能"},{"start":5040.664,"end":5065.924,"text":"好,那要跟進喔好,謝謝委員好,謝謝師傭委員部長先回座來,我們下一位諮詢請邱益穎委員好,謝謝主席,我是不是先請部長請經濟部郭部長"},{"start":5069.07,"end":5095.108,"text":"跟那個臺水臺水李董事長委員長早安部長早部長我想我們今天討論水跟電那當然還是要來談一下這個水電的供給的問題這個卓院長前幾天有去參加這個自來水節他也特別提到未來會有106億要去補助無自來水地區"},{"start":5096.108,"end":5110.96,"text":"我們也看到在這個前瞻計畫的編列裡頭其實你們現在已經把無自來水地區的這個沿管的費用一般地區從每一戶60萬增加到80萬原住民區域大概也是從60萬增加到100萬"},{"start":5113.321,"end":5139.049,"text":"這個看起來這個錢是增加了但是你的160億要做在無自來水地區我們現在的全國的供水率是達到95%剩下的那個5%其實是難度很高如果這麼簡單的話這個5%早就達成了嘛政府每年編了那麼多錢我先講第一件事情我覺得台水公司在過去的幾年其實非常的努力包括我們的降低漏水率的部分"},{"start":5139.769,"end":5156.594,"text":"包括這一些自來水沿管的工程的部分這個我必須給予肯定甚至在前兩個颱風的時候我們在六龜有一個工作人員為了去巡視六龜的淨水場差一點被土石流掩埋所以我覺得這個我們應該某個程度上要給台水公司肯定"},{"start":5157.094,"end":5183.908,"text":"但是口頭的肯定是不夠的所以我非常同意那一天卓院長特別講到了所謂的技術加急這件事情喔技術加急這個事情當然是卓院長現在提出來的但是我們現在可能在預算裡頭是看不到的 對不對董事長現在在你們的還是部長您可以回答在預算裡頭現在還是看不到的嘛所以你的技術加急會從什麼時候開始我們現在在演繹中我希望能夠越快越好"},{"start":5184.622,"end":5203.285,"text":"希望愈快愈好,但是你現在的預算已經編列完整已經送到立法院來來,所以你最快也是要明年嗎?還是你可以從其他的地方去運資?那個是在我們從技術上面來提升技術上面來提升是怎麼樣提升?技術加急董事長你要回答嗎?"},{"start":5205.916,"end":5221.837,"text":"跟委員報告我們114年度已經有編用聯會例裡面也有一個調新的計畫那院長所以你這個是做在調新計畫裡頭不是另外再編一個所謂的技術加擠這樣的一個項目他整體還是在我們的用聯會裡面"},{"start":5224.914,"end":5240.966,"text":"這就是我剛剛特別講到的你們的沿管備用的增加包括這些改善其實我有一個想法這個我也曾經跟自來水公司跟水利署也討論過我在這邊也提出來跟部長做參考就是說"},{"start":5242.088,"end":5254.903,"text":"現在自來水未普及的地方大多是在偏鄉在山上在部落所以如果你從山下要拉自來水管線到山上去你所用的這些費用比如說我現在看到原鄉"},{"start":5259.465,"end":5280.524,"text":"一戶你給他增加到100萬其實還是遠遠不足啦那如果我們能夠在偏遠的山區用簡易自來水但是我要求也拜託自來水公司參與所謂的簡易自來水的建造計畫簡易自來水塔的建造計畫提升水值"},{"start":5281.184,"end":5307.563,"text":"現在的簡易自來水塔其實是非常簡單它就是叫簡易真的是非常簡易如果它能夠加入台水的技術把這個簡易自來水塔的淨化水質的技術把它提升讓偏遠的山區的人也能夠享有跟自來水一樣的水質的話那我想其實可以不用花到那麼多錢從山下沿管到山上去部長您同意我的看法嗎"},{"start":5308.263,"end":5334.459,"text":"非常同意謝謝委員這個指教我們自來水公司有非常多的這方面的技術所以我們可以完全按照委員的指示這樣方向來努力所以我覺得這個可能讓經濟部從水利署跟自來水公司雙方面甚至跟地方政府因為你們要找設置減水站的地方是要地方政府去做配合所以我希望能夠三方一起合作然後達到"},{"start":5335.68,"end":5355.988,"text":"自來水的普及率最少我在偏遠的山區我有減益自來水我的水值其實是還可以達標的我想這個方向我們一起來做努力謝謝委員我們一起努力接下來自來水公司請回接下來我要講到電費的問題部長您有沒有去住官邸"},{"start":5358.049,"end":5363.13,"text":"台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份"},{"start":5385.134,"end":5403.123,"text":"大概兩期到一千度左右你知道你官邸的電器是不是都是節電設施不方便回答我告訴你其實我一進去就因為我怕開冷氣所以我都吹電風扇這個部長"},{"start":5406.26,"end":5422.227,"text":"我覺得齁這個就是台灣的一個問題啦我為什麼會問這個例子行政院長的官邸被修理說這個電費很高後來台電去做了一個調查才發現79%是維安人員使用只有21%是院長的住處使用那"},{"start":5427.009,"end":5442.063,"text":"左院長也沒有住在裡面所以那個21%大概也是屬於繳基本電費而已但是有一件事情是你們沒有說的就是在這一些官邸裡頭的電器設備都非常老舊"},{"start":5443.891,"end":5462.2,"text":"你比如說台電的董事長你不敢換電器設備但是你又怕被人家罵說你浪費電所以你只好吹冷氣你就過著原始人的生活你只好吹冷氣你的官邸裡頭有8台冷氣機但是你每天吹電扇對不起你每天吹電扇不是吹冷氣你就每天吹電扇"},{"start":5463.737,"end":5476.941,"text":"我們的行政院的首長宿舍部長你沒有去住你不知道首長宿舍裡面燈也沒有換不敢換冷氣設備也沒有換都不是節電設備"},{"start":5479.102,"end":5495.573,"text":"所以你現在看府院各部會的水電預算都比去年還增加你們的說法當然是說因為過去政府有編列預算直接去補貼現在沒有了回歸各部會自己去付但是其實沒有去做過盤點"},{"start":5497.034,"end":5512.453,"text":"如果經濟部能源局去做過一個盤點所有的部會裡頭的設施基本上因為怕被攻擊怕被說浪費所以都是20幾年前的舊電器啊"},{"start":5513.698,"end":5534.348,"text":"報告委員我們現在在執行一個新的叫做深度節能的計畫ESCO這個計畫就是針對這一些深度節能計畫是只有執行在你經濟部嗎還是所有行政院的各部會都有我們這是全國啦全國的公務系統通通在做這個深度節能計畫"},{"start":5535.228,"end":5547.983,"text":"那你的深度節電計劃有去做最基本的我想你們的辦公廳社、官社這一些最基本的從最基本的節電計劃開始做現在在進行檢測也就是說先檢查哪邊是老舊的跟他檢查身體一樣"},{"start":5551.687,"end":5554.11,"text":"現在開始做檢測我們在跟民眾說你要節電要換變頻要怎樣電費也要換LED結果政府單位現在開始做檢測太歡幸了"},{"start":5566.764,"end":5595.071,"text":"所以我們一直跟民眾說叫人們要換節電設施結果政府單位自己不敢換有啦有在換政府單位現在才在做檢測這實在是很漏氣很漏氣的事情啦是是不然的話我是希望說你們的這個ESCO的這個服務啊是不是能夠加快腳步是的那我覺得今天我的質詢大概行政院長也能夠聽得到啦上次我在這裡罵你行政院長也可以聽得到所以如果是這樣我覺得行政院應該是要帶頭"},{"start":5596.751,"end":5625.479,"text":"趕快把這個ESCO的這個服務落實讓各部會都能夠加速的來進行節能的這個計畫跟政策好嗎?是是謝謝委員謝謝秋英委員聽秋英委員質詢彷彿大汗逢剛臨長夜玉冥燈令人敬佩消費諮詢請林大化委員"},{"start":5628.464,"end":5631.585,"text":"有請部長請郭部長委員長好 部長本席針對台電跟台水那我們先從台電台電的這個福利金這個我本席認為應該要檢討那原因是什麼少子化導致國營事業員工的招聘困難"},{"start":5656.952,"end":5672.322,"text":"那民間的企業薪酬的條件都已經優於國營事業的給付基礎在薪酬規範的限制下如何藉由其他的福利跟保障將成為國營事業招聘薪水的關鍵好那這個福利金呢是不是這個"},{"start":5674.804,"end":5690.902,"text":"在這個福利金的算法其實福利金不是給所有的員工他是在一個專款專戶當中那他的算法是福利金的預算是來自營業收入的總額乘以福利金的提撥"},{"start":5692.263,"end":5717.201,"text":"這個算完之後還要扣這四項因為這四項認為說這個不是員工努力的所以我應該要扣除它第一個要扣除政府補助的收入要這個福利金的計算當中還要扣除這個政府補助的收入這要提出掉不能算入福利金的計算的增加的因素那核能後端的營業收入也要扣掉電價調漲"},{"start":5720.503,"end":5730.191,"text":"這是不是會增加營業收入這件事情也要扣掉這個電腦有問題好嗎電腦有問題我們先停止一下好不好時間先暫停我們時間先暫停好來"},{"start":5749.583,"end":5776.377,"text":"好 這個畫面不對好 OK 那我們恢復 謝謝主席好 那第四個要扣除的非屬員工共限制收入這四個其實有道理但是我認為檢討的這是第三項電價調漲的因素我先回顧之前這個提撥的比例我們其實法定的提撥比例也就是上面那個公式上頁的那個公式右邊的福利金提撥率"},{"start":5777.838,"end":5782.383,"text":"這個提撥率法定的是要0.15%可是我們從來沒有提撥滿額到0.15%我們最多就是到110年的0.12%好我們看"},{"start":5792.794,"end":5814.376,"text":"會有包括提撥率最低的時候是民國97年的時候提撥率才0.1%我們法定是0.15為什麼因為那時候民國90年說應該把電價調漲這件因素把它剔除掉電價調漲會增加收入所以我應該剔除掉在當時的時空背景97年立法院的附帶去本期支持"},{"start":5815.077,"end":5827.234,"text":"因為他那時候的這個相關的油料啊這個相關的都下降嘛所以這個台電是這個營收非常的豐厚所以你還去調漲電價那這怎麼可以變成是員工的這個因素呢好"},{"start":5831.52,"end":5843.084,"text":"那現在的情況不一樣囉現在是我們的二屋戰爭也好那美中的這個區域經濟的競爭也好導致說我現在把我的這個電價的調漲這件事情納入我要福利金是不是也應該要把扣除掉這件事情我認為是應該要檢討的所以今天我們會調降電價的調漲這個是人員政策啊"},{"start":5859.549,"end":5876.781,"text":"這個不是台電阿這個電現在的電價調漲是為了彌補台電購電成本的增加並非台電員工不努力可是我現在的人員政策電價調漲變成處罰台電員工了我必須扣除台電同仁的福利金阿"},{"start":5877.762,"end":5892.664,"text":"所以本席主張應該要檢討臺電同仁的福利金這一樣維持90之年的提案只是有一個但書臺電不得以電價調漲所增加的營業收入來增加員工福利金但"},{"start":5893.404,"end":5912.549,"text":"在營業總額有盈餘的情況之下這不再實現也就是說只要有盈餘當然我的你還敢去漲電價再增加我本來已經有盈餘再去再去再去漲那當然我就必須把你的這個福利金當中應該扣掉這個因素所以我覺得做應該要做這樣的調漲也就是說電價調漲用於是在彌補台電虧損的情況之下"},{"start":5919.552,"end":5936.625,"text":"則應該刪除電價調漲作為福利金的檢向部長你怎麼看我認同委員的這個槌尋這個部分我們回去根據您的這個槌尋我們來討論一下我們來檢討一下大概多久"},{"start":5939.179,"end":5964.893,"text":"這個部分我想 這個因為是法規定的啦 這個只是員工裡面的 這個只是附帶決議你們的內規 是不是我讓那個我跟委員報告 第一個就是我們台電公司的福利金的總額從來沒有減少過 而且是在往上升的因為他每年會看狀況不一樣 那剛委員所提的說是不是營業收入這個部分會受電價 這個我們會去檢討"},{"start":5967.314,"end":5989.042,"text":"但是我要跟委員報告就是說所有員工的那個福利金我們從來沒有減少過一塊錢是往上升的是是但是你的總額是在減少的嗎沒有沒有總額是在上升總額在上升對我要跟委員特別報告所以每個人的平均的那個福利金也是在上升的所以我們要考慮到四家公司有油電糖水四家因為營業狀況不一樣他的福利金可能會不一樣那我們這個會去檢討大概給我們一個月的時間"},{"start":5992.303,"end":6019.952,"text":"好 那我們來看台水虧損有4個原因養父面積太大了 台水現在有超過7萬6千公里的自來水管需要維護跟更新 第二個水價長期一國兩制 這是本期要質詢的重點根本就對我全台灣人民來講完全沒有用水正義 水費的規則是偏利於用水大戶的 像台積電等等這些都是叫做用水大戶 但是他們"},{"start":6021.673,"end":6044.341,"text":"所收的費用他們的耗水之高我們在台水北水是要給他規定的但是台水是沒有的再來第三成本上漲利息沉重第四個自行舉債舉措經費我們現在非常自豪的我也非常肯定台水的那個漏水利的一個減少但是是他們舉債"},{"start":6046.303,"end":6057.018,"text":"這是舉在來降低我們的漏水率那7萬6千公里的管線維護的成本高我們看世界各國主要城市的漏水率右邊這張圖我們排在第6名"},{"start":6061.484,"end":6082.63,"text":"這個是不容易耶,雖然我們離法國那個第5名12.54%到9%我們還差了3點多%這其實是有點差距但總是我們有第6名那這7萬6千公里的這個管線全台灣這個是什麼概念就是繞地球兩圈的管路概念那台水這樣的漏水力還能夠維持"},{"start":6083.81,"end":6108.518,"text":"還能維持這麼高我覺得真的是了不起那他付出了什麼代價他付出了全台灣他只有80位的水醫生這個水醫生每天都要走上萬公里啊然後再來他付出什麼代價只要我們全台灣哪裡有地下水管破裂水公司一定都第一次第一線每幾分鐘十分鐘內都一定要趕快抵達否則一定會被罵臭頭"},{"start":6109.918,"end":6132.503,"text":"好可是他的這樣的維護成本之高維持這麼低的這個漏水率但是他付出這樣的代價好那但是呢他也自負盈虧舉債來修漏水我們從102年到113年有效的降水這樣降水的這個比例降了7.55%也就是降低漏水率超過一座的10門水庫達2.5"},{"start":6134.923,"end":6135.644,"text":"臺水的借款負債達1044.25億新台幣"},{"start":6158.844,"end":6175.549,"text":"這對一家公司來講這不破產才怪那再來呢所以這邊我具體要求第一個比照台北自來水事務處研議每月用水1000噸以上的用水大幅新增收費集聚來漲水用水增益用水增益是對全台灣2300萬人民我說對台積電這種用水大廠"},{"start":6180.851,"end":6209.439,"text":"你絕對只要水電限電限水都限在什麼地方限在人民用水限在農業用水限在中小企業的用水台積電等這種耗水廠你絕對不敢給他限水或者停電絕對不敢可是我是用人民可是你不敢去找我們的台水公司不敢我不曉得什麼理由你們不敢去對比照這個北水台北市做得到你反而做不到欸"},{"start":6210.519,"end":6222.469,"text":"跟你的用水爭議在哪裡我用人民的納稅人大部分百分之百的納稅人去支持你大企業限電限水的時候又他們不停我們所有人都要停這個叫截貧什麼濟負啊就是這種髒水爭議那第二個呢這個虧損啊1044億當中請"},{"start":6230.436,"end":6253.423,"text":"那個經濟部也比照台電、中油請經濟部向中央爭取兩年爭取撥補來解決台水的負債第三個我們進行老舊管線正式編預算來降低百分之二再降低百分之二的這個漏水率部長您針對台水這個用水正義的部分您怎麼回覆以及在撥補的部分您要不要做努力我們會來努力"},{"start":6253.883,"end":6254.924,"text":"部長先回座"},{"start":6295.396,"end":6307.967,"text":"下一位質詢請賴立榮委員好謝謝主席齁主席加油齁來請郭部長請經濟部郭部長部長"},{"start":6314.281,"end":6337.852,"text":"那個我看一下那一天在這個質詢的時候被國民黨籍的副會計委員指控你說你規避財產申報把股份轉給兒子用兒子當人頭部長有這樣的事嗎我一切都是按照這個法律規定在進行那我並不是轉給他"},{"start":6339.926,"end":6351.011,"text":"我是轉給公司轉給一家投資公司所以我想這個可能是他在這部分沒有了解得很清楚對我來講"},{"start":6355.083,"end":6380.511,"text":"我是一切都依法行事但是對不實的指控我會馬上的提出我想有任何不實指控都要表達強烈的抗議跟澄清讓社會知道因為如果一個成功的企業家那進入到政府機關來服務的話特別是進入到來服務的話那如果可以被這樣攻擊跟抹黑的話那未來會更多我們更難找到更多的人願意來為國家服務"},{"start":6382.577,"end":6409.378,"text":"我都堅決的主張不管是從政務官、文官都要極力的捍衛要捍衛這樣子才有辦法讓這個整個更多的人才願意在政府部門服務我相信郭董絕對不缺錢郭部長也絕對不缺錢那你也不會你也不是來這邊賺錢的你是來替國家服務的那至少這樣的必須要讓社會各界都要清楚謝謝委員讓我在這個地方有機會澄清我確實"},{"start":6411.199,"end":6430.241,"text":"來服務這個國人國家我是基於說這個在目前這這麼好的一個經濟情形那過去我所學的跟我我的經驗有辦法幫助這整個的部門來提升所以我才進來公務"},{"start":6431.542,"end":6456.336,"text":"那對我來講我其實這個年紀我也不會再去求什麼更高的這個權位沒有必要我想我都犧牲我自己的收益了嘛我怎麼會在這個以公謀私呢這樣的一個指證我是有辦法接受的所以這個一定要強力的那最後我還是提醒其實部長因為從業界來但是其實在經濟部下有非常多優秀的文官"},{"start":6456.816,"end":6482.384,"text":"非常有經驗非常豐富真的可以多考慮聽他們的一些建議齁搭配你在民間的一些想法輔佐這些民間的這些包括優秀文官的我相信經濟部會有很好的一些氣象希望部長可以多參財我們經濟部確實是有非常多優秀的這些文官那我們當然會共同努力啦為這個將來經濟部的工作我們打造一個更好的願景好 謝謝"},{"start":6483.365,"end":6489.733,"text":"時間有限,我接下來問一下,台積電2奈米在高雄的試作場沒有問題吧?沒有問題那台積電現在美國川普上來之後,他還是會積極爭取,那2奈米會到美國去?"},{"start":6499.886,"end":6516.738,"text":"在一定的時間他也會走向這個因為市場有需求我想經營一個企業我們到海外大概兩個基本的要件第一個就是我們看到那個市場有需求第二個看到那個國家有我們需要的資源"},{"start":6517.818,"end":6547.198,"text":"這個是我們發展這個國際企業最重要的兩個關鍵因素那麼台積電到美國要不要兩奈米的這樣的一個製程過去我想要看美國的市場需求第二個台積電不是去那邊做善事的是他那個公司他是百分之百的子公司基於經營公司我今天在海外經營一個公司一定要能夠賺錢是一定要能夠賺錢所以對他來講沒有把握的製程是不可能往外走"},{"start":6547.438,"end":6555.788,"text":"所以其實到美國這個部分還沒有完全那個但是高雄的這事做事確定的沒問題嘛對不對高雄的現在是蓄勢待發"},{"start":6557.649,"end":6582.206,"text":"跟部長確認不會有變數就好另外我請教一下MVDR到這個人工智慧創新研發中心在高雄的計畫有沒有改變沒有一樣繼續進行到持續來進行會投資243億的一個經費那AMD的部分研發中心在高雄雅灣的部分這個也在進行當中嗎現在AMD的部分就我所了解他是跟那個中山大學"},{"start":6582.927,"end":6598.711,"text":"中央電力股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份"},{"start":6599.972,"end":6627.306,"text":"這個智慧這一塊投入了相當多的心力我們希望部長全力的來支持讓雅灣有機會南北這一塊的平衡上面能夠做得更好讓雅灣過去從工業的城市有機會轉型成這個AI智慧的一個城市好不好是好謝謝再要請教一下電力的問題其實我們看了一下電力其實政府都做了充分的一些供應那其實我們的策略上大概就是減煤、增氣同時再生能源持續發展同時儲能"},{"start":6628.607,"end":6644.74,"text":"部長是這樣的方向嘛對不對是的所以到2023年我看幾乎所有的這個備轉容量的部分其實都是做一個很好的一個我看甚至有到20幾的部分這應該都是相當好的一個數字狀況了這邊董事長要說明嗎還是"},{"start":6648.319,"end":6649.88,"text":"有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司"},{"start":6669.557,"end":6696.184,"text":"反而很可惜很多國家是羨慕台灣走得這麼快結果我們被某些因素拖住了特別是惡意用地方因素來抹黑攻擊我希望部長都要強力的澄清好不好這絕對是個正確綠電包括這個淨零碳排這一塊絕對都是未來趨勢一定要走的那我們也努力的做了蒸汽的部分也在做了那甚至於除電我們也在做了所以我都希望未來包括"},{"start":6696.904,"end":6718.604,"text":"部長這邊都能夠持續支持讓我們的電力能更加的穩定讓我們的這個國家、經濟、民生都能夠持續的發展好不好好的 謝謝再來我請教要用電卻不發電其實這是我一直長期質疑的問題北部是最明顯北部幾乎是發用他需要的電量是遠遠不足他的發電量"},{"start":6719.841,"end":6749.021,"text":"他連高雄的部分連第7接收站都在做了高雄有40%電力是中送北送都已經在做第7接收站了而北部的部分這些卻不進行我覺得這一塊部長還是要持續的去要求啦齁如果北部的部分在電力上面始終你連電廠也不蓋你連變電所也不蓋那電要從哪裡來你的產業發展哪裡來你要招商的時候你的電哪裡來所以我覺得這個同時間在未來有更多招商還是要持續的講"},{"start":6750.66,"end":6765.622,"text":"南部有電南部超前部署了很多電我們現在還在幹新的燃氣電廠超前部署這是為國家在部署但是也是為南部在部署我們希望在未來有更多招商機會的時候部長應該鼓勵更多企業往南部思考因為電力是充足的"},{"start":6765.822,"end":6786.452,"text":"是謝謝委員我想這個電力充足的地方將是未來廠商前往的地方這個就是大家平常在講的花若盛開蝴蝶自來所以我想我們高雄南部如果他是充分的電力廠商在選擇的時候他不會說要持續的鼓勵跟溝通好不好要請他們要持續往南部去思考不要這個"},{"start":6788.573,"end":6815.654,"text":"投資在北部電區要南部送上來這是毫無道理我們是盡量在北部的這個需求的話我們也是滿足那北部也要請他們要持續思考啦在電力上面的更新有燃氣電廠的更新等等要做包括再生能源包括那些推最後一個問一下漏水率部分其實我之前也關於過這幾年我們的稅收狀況不錯經濟狀況不錯部長要不要考慮跟院長爭取一下來讓那個漏水率來做一個有效的改善"},{"start":6816.354,"end":6816.514,"text":"請回座"},{"start":6842.987,"end":6847.709,"text":"待會我們到政政前委員執行會我們會休息下一位執行請張祺凱委員"},{"start":6872.908,"end":6900.088,"text":"請進部副部長委員好 部長好早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早"},{"start":6901.753,"end":6923.46,"text":"不當的錢要去追回來包括要補償的這錢有一個點你這段時間一定要很注意的就是未來還有很多人要求跟臺元要求償因為他去訂了很多的不平等的條約尤其是我自己的記到的那個案場他可能求償臺泥喔是那麼大的公司喔臺泥跟臺元要求償140億喔這幾天你看文森"},{"start":6928.163,"end":6938.994,"text":"這個地方沒有處理好,巴西會處理好,人民的納稅錢141就出去了,所以有不平等合約你現在回去每一項把它拿出來看,趕快去處理不平等合約的事情應該這是歡迎可以決定的事情"},{"start":6944.62,"end":6970.62,"text":"一方面是發言要掛電啦,一方面就是因為台灣去簽了很多不平等的合約嘛,你做部長會被救的,經濟部要去了解好不好?因為他這個很嚴重的事,他連董事會都沒通過喔董事會通過的是A案,他拿一個C案去騙人家,結果現在導致140億的虧損可能出現好啦,另外要跟你講一個案子,部長,你聽不聽說雲報炒股的事情你要跟那個通知金管會嘛對不對?"},{"start":6971.907,"end":6996.369,"text":"經管會後來,炒股的事情,原報啊,這炒股的事情有進度嗎?不是不是不是,這個不是我主管的,這是經管會他們主管的,我這是依法行事嘛,但是這個我所了解,炒股這兩個字啊,對經管會來講這個不是官方語言,所以這就是"},{"start":6997.981,"end":7004.964,"text":"台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司："},{"start":7026.264,"end":7049.846,"text":"臺南的北門有個案場他後來把這個案場轉給銀豹投資結果啊現在是媒體跟立委都追出來在講說他是不是找了一個紙上的公司叫做縱橫家又掏空了臺元力能1億元這是銀豹喔一樣是銀豹委託付款從上面拿了衣服"},{"start":7050.168,"end":7064.673,"text":"那台研就說去查嘛對不對那裡面有三個非常不合理的這家公司為什麼說他是紙上公司?掏空的台研可能是疑義這家公司跟銀豹同樣在一個地方第一個你如果打電話去他的聯絡人是誰?銀豹的經理"},{"start":7067.694,"end":7084.371,"text":"更離譜的,台言綠能後來發現說這是額外的喔,不給你這個1億啊,不給你這個1億,不給你這個水條他說不給這個1億,出來討債的是誰?銀豹的創辦人張建偉所以現在銀豹不是只有炒股的問題喔,你說的你管的這部分"},{"start":7085.714,"end":7110.468,"text":"去查一下 雲報有沒有掏空 台元力能一一的事情 把它查清楚報告委員 這樣你是不是來檢舉一下你有檢舉 我們才有辦法去去找你說檢舉的這個過程裡面來查沒有人檢舉就沒辦法查我剛剛這個算是檢舉嘛 我可以正式再檢舉一次謝謝我檢舉完你是要查嘛 對不對OK 好 OK 這是一個好 來 我們來談另外 昨天也是 元旭昨天的"},{"start":7111.841,"end":7137.437,"text":"現在啊,台電說它虧損累累,要破產了嘛那所以我們要不要給它一千億的同時現在有一個新的黑洞可能出現了我們的國營事業包括中華電信、中油、中鋼、高鐵要去成立一個塑電平台這有兩個問題啦第一台電本來就有啊,應該台電的塑電平台你就是說嘛,希望這些中小企業可以買到電嘛,買到綠電嘛第一個"},{"start":7139.973,"end":7168.776,"text":"為什麼台電的這個售電平臺沒辦法發揮它的功能這是要檢討的讓它發揮功能這是第一個第二個我們在談的很重要的這裡面有可能牽扯到法律的背信的問題我先提醒喔為什麼是背信你現在講的你現在去找的國營事業這幾家啊都是上市公司喔那他現在去買你現在這個售電平臺裡面如果這些公司這些國營事業又去買電又去買電"},{"start":7170.12,"end":7185.553,"text":"你如果買得太貴,這是不是有背信的問題?對不對?所以我們今天講的很重要。第一,我叫你說很清楚的,你昨天有承諾嘛。我們看一下下一張,很清楚的承諾。不能夠在這個合約裡面去訂什麼。"},{"start":7186.823,"end":7195.037,"text":"我們的售電的賣電公司的這個股東包括中華電信跟中鋼他們電賣不出去叫他們去買這條一定要拿掉對不對?"},{"start":7195.037,"end":7198.803,"text":"是的第二個更重要你一直在說嘛你說你不聽工啦不去買什麼一些電燒整個對不對?"},{"start":7201.269,"end":7219.154,"text":"當然問題是現在就是綠電太貴啊所以台積電沒得買嘛其他人都不買嘛所以才搞到說要成立這家公司老實講有一點是要幫我們的綠電要不然的話綠電現在連銀行都不借錢給他嘛所以他以後有他們銀行願意借錢給他這是第2功能"},{"start":7219.614,"end":7247.828,"text":"可是第一個 它電還是貴的所以第一個我要提醒一個第一個不能買比台積電貴的電 是不是是的 我想謝謝這個委員 未雨綢繆我怎麼跟你一樣 我怎麼想說醫療有什麼樣的情形所以這幾個 scenario 我們都有在考慮那當然有一些不足的 像剛才你在講的買電的義務啊什麼 我這回去會把這個拿掉好 第一個把它拿掉 確定嗎第二個最重要的"},{"start":7248.208,"end":7256.338,"text":"我們做一個怎麼樣確定不會買到太貴的電你先去整合訂單跟需求嗎我今天明確的做一個要求沒有"},{"start":7257.352,"end":7276.483,"text":"沒有拿到企業,沒有很明確已經說人家要買電了,就不能買,就是不會買到太貴的電啊。就是說你不要先買一堆電進來,買了一堆電進來,台電現在就這樣啊,買了一堆太貴,頓過之後買了一堆太貴的,啊賣不出去自己叫中鋼去買嘛,那我們要怎麼預防?回過頭嘛,我們是有訂單,我們才去買電,可不可以重頭?"},{"start":7276.483,"end":7277.464,"text":"可以喔,你看,電頭了嘛對不對?"},{"start":7282.247,"end":7287.709,"text":"台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份"},{"start":7298.453,"end":7322.523,"text":"的這樣政策所以他當然是比較受這個政策的公共政策的這個影響但是我們那個售電平台那個不是喔那個不是出來做公共政策的我們把它明確化啦你看一下你的文字要先整合訂單跟需求你確定有人要買電的時候你才能夠去把電買進來好不好這個明文規定了好不好昨天我已經訂了第一條了"},{"start":7324.064,"end":7331.692,"text":"不能夠叫中鋼那些賣不出去的電器買,這是已經第一個人確定,就是第二點我可能喔,我可能就叫他退出啦,叫他退出溝通啦你如果這樣說我就叫他退出溝通啊,他想要沒電再來把委員拖就好了"},{"start":7338.479,"end":7343.103,"text":"現在不是你跟我的問題現在是這幾家國營事業130萬的股民我們立場是一樣的我提醒你130個股民有任何一個人就按您控告說"},{"start":7363.7,"end":7373.267,"text":"中小企業信保基金最近有投訴一個很重要的案子你看一下今年6月1號有人去投訴說他被性騷擾信用保證基金信保基金會不會變成信保基金他6月1號"},{"start":7392.369,"end":7412.782,"text":"一個女職員就去跟董事長跟姓寶的董事長就投訴了結果這個董事長做了什麼事情他反而要求沒有處理反而要求主席不要去姓平會的承諾書還要嚴重的他竟然轉送他一個口罩後來給全部的員工送乖乖"},{"start":7414.062,"end":7436.139,"text":"理性員工被性騷擾來投訴了,你是不是要處理?你怎麼會送口罩?送口罩意思是什麼?叫你不要講話?送給所有的員工叫你乖乖,這個消息不能再下去。這個事情很具體的就是,你看他拖了多久,不然你先告訴我。6月1號一直到7月18號,拖了一個半夜。第二更嚴重的,你看一下那個文字。他之前已經做了不當的行為,包括去摸這個女職員的手。"},{"start":7441.867,"end":7453.663,"text":"這個你之前簡訊跟他說什麼,男女授受不親,結果你知道這個主管怎麼回他說什麼授受不親,還沒親到你,還沒親到好,我們來瞭解啦"},{"start":7455.046,"end":7455.266,"text":"部長請回座"},{"start":7490.121,"end":7505.598,"text":"來 下位質詢請鄭正前委員主席好 我想請一下郭部長緊急部 郭部長"},{"start":7513.735,"end":7531.576,"text":"委員長部長好你從企業界轉到公部門當中你也知道其實我對於你有一些期待因為我們希望說能夠把企業界的有一些好的特質然後帶到公部門裡面來不過因為企業界其實它是國際化的然後公部門當中它有一些重要的原則"},{"start":7532.597,"end":7539.522,"text":"台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司："},{"start":7557.394,"end":7576.833,"text":"熊本就開始有營業據點出來這都沒有問題我覺得您在企業界我覺得跟著原本就是台積電的半導體產業鏈的一環這我們大家都理解我只想說在2024年您接部長之後你提出了一個很重要的政策就是境外關內的部分"},{"start":7579.115,"end":7606.096,"text":"目前確實你也在努力的其實要讓整個半導體的一個供應鏈一起到熊本去有這樣的事情嗎?對不對?報告委員這個是這樣子就是說這個日本熊本的這個公司這個公司事實上有日本的股份在那日本的股份就我所了解他們要求5年以後60%的材料"},{"start":7608.68,"end":7632.428,"text":"通通要跟日本買理解部長我在想說因為這個事情目前是這樣在走我想說整個方向確實也就是如此我在想說因為昨天有其他委員有特別提到說您現在好像變成日本的招商局局長這件事情我待會有時間讓你回應我只是要特別講到一個點就是說當整個台積電"},{"start":7634.295,"end":7648.462,"text":"所帶動的一個半導體的一個供應鏈一起到日本去的時候對台灣來講是不是能夠爭取到更多的一個條件更好的一個條件為台灣爭取更多的一個國家利益"},{"start":7649.542,"end":7675.038,"text":"所以我這邊的一個問題就是說針對這樣子的一件事情那台積電如果說不斷的外移原本我們都認為台積電是護國神山這樣子的一個效力會不會減少如果說剛剛有委員提到說去亞利桑那州的問題台積電不斷的出走之後你覺得對於台灣的護國的一個能量會不會降低"},{"start":7675.878,"end":7695.576,"text":"完全不會降低而且會幫助台積電在未來的這個市場裡面更加的雄偉為什麼說更加的雄偉因為你必須要用很多國外的人才來經營國外的市場因為我們台灣在台灣我們是技術領先"},{"start":7696.917,"end":7713.593,"text":"但是呢在市場上面我們是要服務各個海外的這個市場的客人所以啊以台積電這麼優秀的這樣的一個技術本位啊他為什麼人家會需要他到美國去會到這個歐洲會到日本主要是"},{"start":7714.994,"end":7739.88,"text":"市場的問題嘛市長我理解這部分那我只是要特別提到說因為當台積電尤其很多的一個先進製程也不斷的外移的時候我們對於台積電在台灣的護國這樣的一個效力的時候你剛講說會越來越雄偉其實很多人肯定不認同很多學術專家也不認同那我希望針對這個部分就是你要好好的去"},{"start":7740.64,"end":7765.651,"text":"拿捏這個部分尤其是我剛剛提到2022年一路過來你從企業家轉換成部長這狀態然後同時去做了一個境外關內這樣的一個政策的時候很多人覺得說這是擺明要讓台灣的一個產業打包一起集體外移所以這個部分我們希望經濟部在做這過程當中的時候一定要為台灣爭取到更多的一個資源比方說我們"},{"start":7766.391,"end":7790.627,"text":"整體半導體產業鏈到日本熊本去的時候日本是不是就會更大力的支持我們進到CPTPP類似這樣的一個條件或者是其他另外的一些關稅其他相關的一些投資台灣的一些相關的部分我們希望把台灣半導體外移的動作的時候變成我們跟其他國家談判的籌碼好不好"},{"start":7791.567,"end":7817.642,"text":"確實是如委員你所垂詢的我們所做的部分都是為了台灣的產業更具有世界競爭力所以我們去的時候是以大代小具有競爭力的產業我們把台灣中小企業特別多中小企業要發展海外的事業其實有它的困難經濟部的立場就是幫他們順利的落地第二個幫他們爭取稅金上面的優惠"},{"start":7818.842,"end":7836.239,"text":"這個我們如果不是用經濟部的立場我相信以我們中小企業要跟當地國去談這一種所謂的投資優惠應該是談不了另外一部分我也希望我們這樣去的時候我們也希望日本能夠加強對台灣的一個投資力度在談判當中我們都希望把它談進來好不好部長"},{"start":7836.94,"end":7843.504,"text":"台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、"},{"start":7860.272,"end":7875.007,"text":"設備都投資完成了可是因為匱限的不足還有其他相關的配套不足的時候沒有辦法併網部長你知道這樣的事情嗎這個是在過去啦我們來了以後啊我們考慮了很多提出很多的解決方案"},{"start":7875.847,"end":7903.117,"text":"這個委員我可以再跟你報告因為我這邊看到至少到目前為止還在再生能源業者等著要併網的件數有1536件其實非常非常的多而且有很多有300億件等超過兩年那你這邊你說你有那個更新的一個數據你在跟我本席這邊做報告那我這邊要特別講一個情況比方說在這樣的一個情況之下我想問一下因為這幾年台電"},{"start":7904.918,"end":7934.06,"text":"除了一直要從政府這邊要錢去增資去撥補到明年預價5000億這是一個很龐大的數字但有2000億還在立法院當中我想要問一下在這麼多錢當中的時候台電也不對在投入他們的一個固定資產的一個建設計畫當中明年有多少金額這個我是不是請可以總經理回答報告委員明年在固定資產"},{"start":7935.625,"end":7959.513,"text":"再加上我們的一般建築的這個部分大概2600億2690億那其中外界資金有多少?外界的資金大概2100億大概2100億我們後來算了一下這麼高的一個狀況的時候光是明年台電要付出的利息就超過320億這個數字是正確的對不對?"},{"start":7963.734,"end":7989.44,"text":"320億有多大?右邊我們看到包括外交部一年的公務預算都還沒有那麼高只有319億司法院、文化部、總統府、速發部、環境部、立法院、監察院、僑委會、經管會這麼多十大的一個單位包含總統府在內一年的預算都沒有320億我們台電光是付利息的支出就要320億那這當中肯定是有很多政策上的"},{"start":7990.12,"end":7994.062,"text":"台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司："},{"start":8013.46,"end":8040.683,"text":"條長電費你就要下台有這樣的事情嗎部長跟委員報告剛剛您提到那個舉債這麼多主要是因為台電的設備都是大型的投資都是長期的投資理解可是說我們本來想說台電他是一個公營系本來想自己賺錢自己來做投資這是最好的一個狀態可是現在很大部分都按照要由政府這邊來撥補所以我們認為不太適合所以我想針對部長這個部分因為部長也提出了要求"},{"start":8041.403,"end":8066.484,"text":"我們政府能夠撥補台電2000億包括追加預算跟明年的預算然後如果再調高電費你這邊之前有承諾過還是說你這邊有其他的說法跟看法簡單回應一下好不好部長報告2000億是補那個名稱我知道讓部長回答好不好總經理謝謝報告委員我在之前很久以前我曾經有這樣說過了是"},{"start":8067.865,"end":8069.947,"text":"現在休息6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘"},{"start":8590.965,"end":8604.091,"text":"好,請列席,關於人請回座好,我們現在繼續開會,下位置請張家俊委員還沒還沒還沒"},{"start":8621.038,"end":8644.246,"text":"主席我想請郭部長請經濟部郭部長部長您是產業經濟專家那目前呢大家百姓最擔心的就是明年的景氣到底明年的景氣好不好您可不可以給我們做一個預估呢好的謝謝委員我想這個是一個很好的一個推詢"},{"start":8645.786,"end":8658.132,"text":"明年的景氣以目前這個世界的變異明年因為美國的這個川普總統他上任1月15號上任以後我相信這個世界會有很大的改變"},{"start":8659.992,"end":8676.72,"text":"從過去拜登總統聯防的概念走向川普總統最重要的就是MAGA讓美國再世偉大這樣的想法美國再世偉大採用的方法就是加關稅"},{"start":8678.331,"end":8686.799,"text":"降低國內的這個企業經營的設計﹖但這就是大家都擔心的啊,擔心這個假設加關稅貿易戰會不會對台灣的這個未來經濟有很大的影響呢?"},{"start":8692.082,"end":8715.097,"text":"我在過去我來這個政府以後我曾經提出一個境外關內的這樣的一個概念我們主要就是幫助這個台灣的企業到海外去落地來成長那麼我們在落地成長現在看起來如果到美國去生產根據美國的市場需求"},{"start":8716.243,"end":8731.77,"text":"我們去美國生產這個對我們台灣來講是一種鼓勵第二個這裡面有一個變數關係就是美中的這個貿易對抗中國現在我們看到很多的這個討論特別是這個川普總統對中國的這種"},{"start":8735.453,"end":8753.512,"text":"這種壓制,你看看這一次川普總統旁邊的包括他的國務卿包括他國防部長包括他的這個白宮裡面的這個他的這個最親近的這個夥伴他的這個這一些人通通是對中國是比較鷹派的"},{"start":8756.912,"end":8783.678,"text":"就是擔心就還是擔心啦齁當然我一聽部長這樣講我有信心因為畢竟主政者非常了解國家的脈動怎麼樣跟國際接軌那這個是一個好事但是呢普遍的這民間還是會擔心說哇到底這個美中貿易戰我們夾在中間會不會被壓扁啊然後會不會就是造成說我們會越來越小啊"},{"start":8784.358,"end":8802.226,"text":"這是平均大家都疑慮的所以是不是部長可以解決我們的疑慮報告委員我們現在是這樣就是幫助在台商在中國的台商因為現在如果川普真正的落實他對中國課稅60%的話那麼這個對台商來講這個影響會很大"},{"start":8807.717,"end":8821.493,"text":"所以他們必須轉移陣地?他們必須要轉進到這個美國啊那如果他們反台會不會更好呢?反台的話我們這樣子我們在看啊因為我們現在畢竟少子化所以對這個人員的"},{"start":8822.895,"end":8847.556,"text":"人力可能會沒有辦法滿足當初他們離開台灣到這個中國的這樣的一個誘因所以我們會協助他們轉進到這個另外一個所以這個已經有具體的計畫是哪一個單位在協助規劃嗎現在沒有因為我們以前也沒有想到說會有這樣的一個情形不過我們現在那大概會責成什麼單位來協助"},{"start":8850.393,"end":8855.798,"text":"我們裡面有很多,我們有智庫啊,我們經濟部大概有5個智庫。 是,到時候是這個中小企業處呢,還是產業發展,產業發展署啊,還是什麼單位會來負責呢?報告委員,我們現在是這樣,就是說由智庫來評論,由智庫來收集資料,"},{"start":8873.234,"end":8899.339,"text":"然後做出一個建議然後我們再來看是哪一個單位負責哪一個群哪一個產業那由這個負責的這個署或者是處來好那這個就要拜託部長專心的用心的用力的把它做好規劃因為這個會影響台灣未來的產業發展甚至人民的生活那接下來講到人民的生活我就想要問一下部長"},{"start":8900.88,"end":8908.607,"text":"剛剛每一位委員都問到撥補這個未來兩千億不要算之前撥補的這個三千億了這樣加加起來三年五千億這個部長你怎麼看現在繼續撥補嗎?您支持這個撥補嗎?我們希望委員能夠支持我們這個撥補"},{"start":8919.537,"end":8919.557,"text":"部長"},{"start":8937.714,"end":8940.777,"text":"可是台電最近4個月因為漲建價的關係已經開始有盈餘了7月賺了73億8月盈餘129億9月盈餘122億"},{"start":8952.605,"end":8954.425,"text":"我們不只漲了電價然後這個國際的這個天然氣價格還已經回到了二屋占錢的水平了那已經賺錢了又漲了電價為什麼還一定要撥補呢報告委員這個7月8月那個時候是夏季電價"},{"start":8972.401,"end":8978.663,"text":"那所以呢我現在的理解是為什麼我想要請教一下每一個人都提醒你們說這個能源配比要調整你們有調整嗎能源配比我有啊我們現在就是你們的能源配比完全都沒有考慮核電啊完全沒有考慮核電怎麼有辦法把這個電價降下來嗎或者說"},{"start":8997.248,"end":9005.274,"text":"部長您今天有辦法在這裡保證說這2000億撥補給你之後明年後年都不漲電價報告委員這個漲不漲電價不是經濟部長可以決定的我知道但你也要你主管機關你這個全國產業經濟的主管機關你也要有主張呀你就是明年後年都都補我1000億的話"},{"start":9022.848,"end":9045.496,"text":"然後再來我沒有辦法我們現在只講到明年的一千億你連後年的一千億都講出來了那就是意思說每年都要補台電一千億喔不是 報告委員因為那個三千多億的這個負債是在過去兩年因為COVID-19而造成那未來是什麼原因未來為什麼還會有一千億是什麼原因我現在是補過去的虧損"},{"start":9046.476,"end":9049.018,"text":"你已經漲了店價我們還要補過去的虧損台電沒有辦法自己想說怎麼賺錢怎麼創造收益嗎?"},{"start":9058.086,"end":9063.549,"text":"有漲 有漲一波有漲一波 第二次沒有漲 第一次有漲你問總經理 對不對 我現在沒有要問你所以我必須要講 部長我們不斷地拿人民的納稅錢去補貼台電是沒有辦法解決根本的問題的我們一定要有一個長期的財務規劃長期的這樣子的計畫否則你每年一直靠撥補 台電那就擺爛了"},{"start":9088.001,"end":9088.261,"text":"我是因為說我們一共還"},{"start":9105.17,"end":9121.514,"text":"還缺3000多億之前虧損所以你計畫他所有的虧損都要用人民的荷包來抹平的意思嗎不是因為造成這個虧損是因為我們動漲的這個價格但你們已經再漲了兩次啊所以你預計如果不撥補明年還要漲是嗎我們還"},{"start":9123.575,"end":9128.818,"text":"這個漲價不是我決定,漲價是這個價格還有我必須要講一下,就是我們雲林縣斗六的長治久安公園是園館局的地,但現在雜草叢生、蛇鼠橫行然後地方治安產生問題部長,我昨天親自去了這個"},{"start":9145.606,"end":9149.048,"text":"服務中心服務中心全部擺爛他說勤勞勤勞說只要縣府或公所願意接管我們再撥錢給他們來來整理這個是你們經濟部應該有的態度嗎?你們的產業去到了地方難道不應該把環境整理乾淨嗎?"},{"start":9164.895,"end":9185.211,"text":"我們回去瞭解一下好不好不是不只是瞭解您瞭解之後您還要立起來要告訴他說這是要對居民友善嘛怎麼可以你們的產業去到那裡然後把地方弄得一團亂也不願意整理還請呢縣府跟市公所一定要接管好不好這一點拜託部長是謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":9190.786,"end":9203.54,"text":"負負大家的期待下一位質詢請鄭天才委員"},{"start":9216.544,"end":9219.88,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請部長請經濟部顧部長"},{"start":9227.413,"end":9249.999,"text":"委員長首先還是要先謝謝這個台電跟自來水公司這段時間這個11月還有這個接連而來的颱風所以在康瑞颱風這個包括天瑞這個天兔尤其是康瑞颱風造成的"},{"start":9251.349,"end":9272.439,"text":"臺灣地區,尤其是花東,很多的電還有水,都是自來水公司跟台電,非常辛苦的在一起附電附水。我們看今年的,首先也要謝謝經濟部再次的提報,"},{"start":9274.232,"end":9285.678,"text":"這個無自來水第7供水改善計畫第5期這個在11月18號行政院已經核定了這個106億的一個明年開始的這個第5期計畫跟部長說明過去這個因為無自來水計畫的經費有限"},{"start":9298.194,"end":9324.267,"text":"所以每一次很多的部落或是很多的社區、很多的這個村裡需要這個五自來水要做這個沿管過去它有一個每戶成本的上限每戶成本的上限這個以這個第4期計畫來講就是60萬元但每一次都會做一個不同的調整"},{"start":9325.902,"end":9340.456,"text":"在毛自國當行政院院長的時候我特別就質詢協調就希望說部落因為每次原住民的部落因為人附屬少附屬少 單位成本就比較高"},{"start":9341.357,"end":9367.437,"text":"就很難去跟一般的村里去做比較所以當初我是要求把這個部落另外去算一定的比例給部落部落另外算所以一直現在實施到現在是有這樣的一個狀況所以原住民部落就是另外去按照一定的比例然後去以這個上限會比較公平"},{"start":9368.197,"end":9387.61,"text":"那這次這個第5期有做更好的一個規劃所以持續的去來去辦理所以這個部分那因為花蓮台東又很特殊因為那個原住民的人口最多部落也最多所以本席當時這個因應0918的地震的時候"},{"start":9394.008,"end":9411.927,"text":"就請經濟部提報到這個國發會因為有花東基金所以超過60萬以上的就用花東基金這樣的話能夠去共同的去加速但是因為這段時間因為這個是從112年到今年113年"},{"start":9417.205,"end":9431.433,"text":"所以在這樣一個兩年的時間當然也很長促也很大這個自來水公司也積極的在處理當然地方政府包括這個相關的這些用地的的取得也都有問題所以這個部分"},{"start":9432.713,"end":9451.75,"text":"這個要請自來水公司去說明一下這個我們行政院112年3月15號合訂這個自來水沿管工程的計畫包含這個花東基金投入這個7109萬9千元無自來水計畫投入7400萬1千元總共1億4510萬元"},{"start":9460.98,"end":9464.281,"text":"這個目前的一個進度如何?"},{"start":9464.281,"end":9481.686,"text":"這個是不是請自來水公司還是部長?謝謝委員的一個指教感謝委員一直在為花東地區的這些燕鄉部落在爭取一些改善自來水的案件"},{"start":9485,"end":9510.886,"text":"利用發動基金來協助這些部落我們總共有13個案子那到目前我們已經完成了有6個案6個案件已經完成了那還有7個案現在在執行中在執行中我們預計在今年底會再完成完成3件那剩下4件會在明年中會全部完成"},{"start":9513.905,"end":9526.586,"text":"還沒有完成主要的原因是什麼有一件事因為米贊部落那邊是今年0403的影響所以我們這個廠商的施工量能有稍微"},{"start":9527.082,"end":9551.386,"text":"所以這一件工程會延到明年的6月才完成那另外有三件的案件是我們在今年底我們才成立預算是用結一款就之前完工的這些的結款來偵辦的三件工程那我們今年底會再成立預算那明年會把它完成"},{"start":9552.738,"end":9569.275,"text":"這個部分這個有需要去可以比較快的地方可以隨時可以去做調整所以有時候像這個我們看這個像光復鄉大興村"},{"start":9572.089,"end":9584.084,"text":"這個整個村然後相關的這些用地企得像那個台鐵就比較容易嘛國產署的也容易嘛所以這個部分就可以做一些滾動的檢討來調整嘛"},{"start":9587.989,"end":9608.729,"text":"是,謝謝委員的一個協助之道,這個我們今年底關乎鄉這個案子今年底會來完工?對,這個部分因為它是一個比較整個村裡面,而且過去曾經發生土石流的地方這段時間都還好啦,所以這個部分這個用水的部分既然"},{"start":9609.689,"end":9626.493,"text":"這個村有需要做這個調整所以這個部分...報告委員水利署這邊再補充說明一下在我們這個剛合訂的第5期計畫裡面其中有3億元花東基金也是按照委員的意見我們將來會撥補這個以後100億以上的錢會按照委員意見來做這個"},{"start":9633.715,"end":9653.342,"text":"現在就是自來水公司跟地方政府要共同的去努力不然好不容易有這樣的一個經費所以這個部分要加油最後這個我還是要去強調"},{"start":9655.943,"end":9683.334,"text":"這個其他的先回座部長還是要強調你是從企業界企業界來怎麼樣去全盤的了解這個這個電的部分電的部分從過去的合適2000多億其實將近3000億了如果再加上這個"},{"start":9685.284,"end":9707.309,"text":"維護的現在封存了但是還是要每年要維護所以要請同仁提供給你第一個合適到底已經花了多少錢繼續要花多少錢第二這個台電的撥補台電的撥補4000多億囉你說未來還要加上什麼呢"},{"start":9714.909,"end":9732.917,"text":"比較要去計算的就是綠能的部分綠能的部分從能源署其他的署撥到要花那個錢變成多少錢然後還要買啊台電還要跟他買啊買電啊對不對這個部分"},{"start":9736.201,"end":9737.462,"text":"消費諮詢請蔡易瑜委員"},{"start":9765.353,"end":9792.707,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們是有請經濟部郭部長請經濟部郭部長委員長 部長部長 我們從最近的一些新聞包括說我們看到美國拜登有核准要給台積電一些補貼那這個補貼當然是希望台積電到美國設廠"},{"start":9793.928,"end":9811.603,"text":"那他們有他們的一個需求但是我們從日本那德國跟美國的一個經驗來說事實上他們都很積極的要把台積電這麼一家國際企業然後希望在他們的國內有生產的行為所以台灣其實真的是有台積電真的是很棒"},{"start":9812.564,"end":9821.514,"text":"這真的是我們台灣的護國神山所以同樣看到日本、德國、美國他們對台積電這樣大力的一個拉攏我們當然要想辦法讓台積電永遠的就是在我們台灣就是在這裡持續的一個發展"},{"start":9829.904,"end":9847.153,"text":"那這個持續的發展我們除了有一些法令的禁止說這部分如果沒有你們同意是不可以去是不可以去可是我覺得我們相對應的我們也是要釋出台灣可以做的一些作為讓台積電覺得在台灣那還是有在我們自己股內的溫暖我指的這一些就是說我們知道現在整個台積電他的一些"},{"start":9858.339,"end":9876.957,"text":"一些幾奈米幾奈米大概在南科未來在高雄也有一些部署那如果南科跟高雄有這樣的一個晶圓的一個生產那嘉義未來是一個COAS就是台積電封裝的一個先進封裝的一個基地好那這樣的一個基地是不是未來"},{"start":9878.178,"end":9903.192,"text":"因為這個部長也許你比較專業我直接在這邊問這是我不知道的就是說未來南科所發展所生產的一些晶圓這些晶片就是會送到嘉義然後來做先進封裝他會有這樣的一個運輸的過程嗎?會有這樣的運輸的過程那是差不多多少比例會這樣的運輸勒?"},{"start":9905.197,"end":9925.848,"text":"這個有辦法統計還是不確定有可能到別的地方要看是什麼樣的商品想像上是這樣但是有一個部分到嘉義是做COAS那有一部分可能會到高雄高雄的是月光可能這個產品不同的封裝不同的產品進入不同的封裝我想像上大概是這樣"},{"start":9926.428,"end":9942.187,"text":"但是會到嘉義至少是一個需要技術上去做先進封窗就會到COWAS就會到嘉義所以部長就來了啊所以我覺得我們台灣人做的是什麼把交通問題再把它改善"},{"start":9943.312,"end":9958.811,"text":"所以這個雖然這是交通部的問題可是站在整個產業面因為你是經濟部長嘛對你應該要站在說這個產業好因為他們有一個技術上的需求所以我們應該進一步的去思考如果我們可以要求"},{"start":9959.592,"end":9982.38,"text":"所有的類似這樣的產業園區不管它是屬於國科會所管理的科學園區或者是我們經濟部所管轄的產業園區我們如果可以把嘉義、高雄、台南從這樣的一個園區整個有一個交通的大串聯起來比方說現在高雄跟台南推動的S郎帶"},{"start":9983.3,"end":10000.454,"text":"如果S狼帶可以再延伸到嘉義然後整個串聯起來是不是對於這樣整個晶圓他們未來的運輸成本運輸的時間可以大幅的下降這樣對於台積電他們整個企業的一個發展又是更好的一個方向"},{"start":10000.894,"end":10022.368,"text":"是的,就整個產業來講,就像剛才這個委員所垂詢的,大軍未至,糧草先行。所以道路周遭的環境的形成是非常非常的重要。所以您剛才所垂詢的部分,我們是充分的參考。"},{"start":10023.147,"end":10043.004,"text":"對我覺得就是說因為部長因為你站在說這個整個這個產業鏈嘛那台積電他當然扮演的已經是台灣的整個產業的一個龍頭那這個龍頭產業要讓他怎麼造成一個產業的群聚有台積電的地方自然他的上下游產業大家自然來群聚所以"},{"start":10043.904,"end":10051.53,"text":"除了科學園區之外臨近的產業園區就像嘉義我們的嘉科旁邊就有所謂的馬籌後園區那馬籌後園區呢他現在有一個45公頃就是我們過去講的叫做要把它規劃叫園中園"},{"start":10059.056,"end":10069.105,"text":"那我們希望這裡就是一個半導體的一個材料的一個供應鏈所以我們希望說這些材料商就大家都要來買到好這裡那我們這裡也準備最好的一個環境那我們也多次的跟我們產業園區署這邊希望他們趕快來把這個招商的後續的一個程序趕快來推動我想要請教一下部長"},{"start":10083.618,"end":10112.01,"text":"那這個遭傷的行為你們在可以在什麼時候可以來開始來這個馬籌厚後期的一個遭傷現在我想我還沒有收到這個原管局的這樣的一個報告那我回去以後會來了解一下因為畢竟這個COAS在嘉義要設那麼多廠的話那馬籌厚就像您剛剛所垂詢的它自然而然"},{"start":10113.471,"end":10128.704,"text":"這個供應商會接近它,因為這個logistic,這個搬運各方面這個距離越短越安全,成本越低。對啊,所以馬草後加加克這麼快嘛,對不對?這應該是沒問題啦,這花若盛開蝴蝶自來。"},{"start":10129.344,"end":10151.77,"text":"發落盛開的蝴蝶自來,不然我們會緊嗎?我會覺得你頂屬早一點的嘛,就是說整個也很好,因為那100坪齁,它是台糖齁,它是台糖分配的,那台糖是沒有能力去接觸到這些廠商的。我們會整體跟國客會一起來理會。對,因為你們經濟部才有辦法去把那些廠商要引來,然後告知這些廠商說未來,"},{"start":10153.03,"end":10168.662,"text":"包括說台積電在於加科的布局所以如果這些供應鏈可以到馬籌後馬籌後確實有這樣理想的一個場地所以我想這要快報告委員這都是國發會在經歷經濟部是這間單位所以我會跟那個國發會留守會我來跟他報告"},{"start":10173.905,"end":10196.712,"text":"說有委員這樣的建議那我們是不是把這個速度稍微拉高一點除了國發會之外我們的產業園區署也是因為我們馬超是產業園區署這邊未來要是是是他要來執行的啦所以我想他的腳步還要快的那是真的有差好不好好那第二個就是說我們知道說這個整個綠能的一個發展啦齁"},{"start":10197.572,"end":10225.828,"text":"那綠能的發展當然會涉及到說包括我們在陸域風機已經10年就有一個汰換所以未來好像會有超過900隻的葉片它就會變得需要被汰換那除了這個葉片需要被汰換之外事實上我也很好奇因為我們光電已經推動了已經好幾已經都10幾年了啦所以光電也開始會進入所謂光電版的汰換期了"},{"start":10226.668,"end":10240.971,"text":"那我想要請教的就是說就於這樣一些風電或者是光電他們這一些零件或者是光電板的汰換或者是他們需要去化不要讓他們進一步變成這個廢棄物變成造成污染的廢棄物那我們現在經濟部有做好這些規劃嗎?"},{"start":10250.673,"end":10272.901,"text":"報告委員我們規劃都有啦那個光電的部分比較沒有問題這個風電的部分也是在進行中我想這個3R Reduce Recycle跟Reuse都是我們經濟部在處理的部分事實上光電的部分我有一個比較好奇啦我好奇的就是說如果光電的這個契約已經到了那你們是希望他要更新設備"},{"start":10274.847,"end":10289.592,"text":"還是他可以直接延長契約?你們希望的方向是怎樣?能源署可不可以說明一下?跟台電或是業者另外有簽約是他民事上的問題"},{"start":10292.113,"end":10314.027,"text":"大方向,我說光電如果到齊了,好,它如果是20年嘛,那20年到了後,他們是要更新光電板,因為現在光電板的技術是越來越好嘛,對不對?所以你們是會要求他更新,還是說你舊的沒關係,反正你就繼續循環?我們當然希望他能夠更新,因為更新的話也許面積可以縮小,發電量不會變,或者是同樣的面積發電量可以增加。"},{"start":10321.712,"end":10350.163,"text":"看他們自己民間契約怎麼走,這樣嗎?我們當然會盡可能協助他們,就是說...協助喔?我根本已經熟客看過了啦!你們需要政策手段,還是說你們只是站在輔導、鼓勵,這個是不一樣的喔!謝謝委員!好,謝謝!謝謝財議委員!部長回座!部長,如果花落不開,那狐狸會去哪裡?為了花落不開,那狐狸就不來了?不來了!"},{"start":10364.564,"end":10386.118,"text":"來OK好下一個我們請邱志偉委員質詢好謝謝主席要請郭部長請部長台電曾總經理曾董事長然後台水李董事長郭部長、曾董事長、李董事長"},{"start":10387.762,"end":10416.025,"text":"委員長這個部長早辛苦了齁我們先看台點那個台水的漏水率雖然說昨天有下降我們編了兩期阿現在114年開始推動新一期的降低漏水率計畫我們編的編的大概是72億計畫是114年到121年齁那114年要降到11.55%好如果這72億執行7年你到121年的時候你漏水率會降到多少"},{"start":10418.866,"end":10424.188,"text":"報告委員那個114年是72億我們到121年我們整體的計畫總金額是808億808億那是單一年度的預算那你111年要變到800億嘛對不對到121年800億你會降到多少9.9%、9.77%"},{"start":10443.274,"end":10467.775,"text":"才11.55經過7年在9.77合共800億那你上一屆上一期102到1113這花多少錢花了加1030億1030億你們效能可要提高啦你看你將一年的漏水率110年來看相當於全國人口的62天的民生用水量所以你這個"},{"start":10469.232,"end":10497.911,"text":"漏水率的降低你應該要設定更好的標準更嚴格的標準你剛剛誤以他如果我給你800億你這樣5以下我們可以接受好不好我們來努力跟委員報告現在我們下一階段的那個漏水率現在已經降到大概12.5嘛12%以下那越降越低的話每1%的話要投入的金額是要越高的"},{"start":10499.731,"end":10513.147,"text":"但是你總體漏水率我希望說你的效能能夠更好一點畢竟這個800億的預算不算少另外你們這個新預的部分因為你們自有水量自有水來自於這個水庫比較多對不對"},{"start":10514.554,"end":10519.116,"text":"有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份"},{"start":10533.441,"end":10554.887,"text":"跟委員報告我們自有水源比例會下降的原因因為是營商地區有地層下限一個防治的方案那減沖地下水這些地下水原先都是我們自有水源你要跟台水台水要跟另外一家公司買嘛北水處我們因為水情如果不佳的話我們要跟北水處那水價長期一國兩制我想這個部分"},{"start":10558.849,"end":10569.439,"text":"這個我們有跟北水處也協調多次了啦,那水利署這邊也有協助來跟北水...未來朝向水價是不是能夠統一?這個部長,這個專注一個方向來努力"},{"start":10574.114,"end":10590.692,"text":"水價的部分我想未來能不能夠調整是這個審議委員會的事我不是說水價調整啦就是說你北水處跟台水它的水價能不能統一啦主管機構不一樣齊建副嘛 但是你們可以去協調啊"},{"start":10594.143,"end":10614.783,"text":"亞航總裁楊金榮說,川普上任之後,他會建議政府加強對美國的投資跟採購。投資項目當然,川普需要的就是半導體,所以是先進製程的部分。當然,我們採購的部分,除了農產品還有其他的部分,我想問的是天然氣的來源。"},{"start":10616.425,"end":10639.684,"text":"天然氣主要的這個起源國大概是澳洲最多大概4成多然後卡達大概也3成多以前有俄羅斯現在俄羅斯當然不行但美國還是停留在10%未來有沒有可能對美國的天然氣採購能夠再增加這部分這個台電有沒有負案我想策略上應該會這樣子因為美國這個目的主要就是要打壓這個俄羅斯"},{"start":10641.024,"end":10663.479,"text":"是阿 阿俄羅斯現在分散到其他的國家但是卻沒有分到美國所以我們對美國天然氣的採購我希望說是不是在未來能夠我們來增加對美國的這個採購另外你這個台電的預算的補助獎補助或者投資阿你看大家都問說過去三年度大概投了五千億阿我是怕未來會不會成為常態化"},{"start":10665.336,"end":10679.049,"text":"你要因為能源成本高升不降然後又有政策的目的這個部分你這種結構你成本沒有辦法降然後又有政策的目的要去達成長年性的補貼會變成一個常態化我很擔心這樣子"},{"start":10683.687,"end":10707.193,"text":"這會不會發生呢?我們來我們基於我們在衡量這個整個台電的這個財務結構我們發現這個材料的成本影響也很大第二個這個動漲然後影響這個公司營運這個也很大我們會就這個公司為什麼會造成虧損做深入的資料解那麼針對這個部分我們來改善我認為啦這個"},{"start":10709.633,"end":10731.259,"text":"現在如果這個2000億可以撥補進來的話那對我們來改善財務我們現在的財務光是利息就300多億我擔心說未來每年都變常態性的都要憋1000億我是擔心這種狀況如果結構沒有調整的話昨天我請教您中油亞林最低價你說這個鬆綁這個鬆綁是誰要去處理的亞林最低價這個可能是要"},{"start":10738.32,"end":10762.623,"text":"亞林最低價是當初什麼107年制定2007年制定的對這個要鬆綁要如何鬆綁呢現在我們希望能夠鬆綁要如何鬆綁你們希望鬆綁要如何鬆綁那個是因為油價公司本來是中油公司自己決定的事項所以中油公司他可以自己決定但是他因為因為這個都亞林最低價的這個約束是來自哪裡"},{"start":10763.908,"end":10788.6,"text":"就是在有限公司上面那這個部分是誰可以去調整?經濟部能不能調整?經濟部能不能調整?還是要涉及修法?這沒有涉及修法但你經濟部可以去調整阿是你現在亞銀最低價因為韓國、日本都受到政府補貼我們他們有政府補貼我們還是維持最低價那當然對中油不公平阿所以如果這個部分要調整的話經濟部會跟中油公司我們一塊討論"},{"start":10789.44,"end":10814.755,"text":"那因為這個還有涉及到穩定就是物價各方面的考量所以我們會這個我們會跟中國公司我們油價在雅林是一直最低價那他們也有其他政府的補貼我們沒有政府補貼特別是中油所以這不會盡快去思考如何把這個雅林最低價鬆綁讓這個油價能夠回歸到市場比較市場機制又能夠兼顧這個不要造成這個通貨膨脹或者民生物價上漲"},{"start":10815.976,"end":10843.572,"text":"我們會內部討論完以後跟院裡面報告然後這個 儘快去 那麼三個月之內提出一個檢討另外這個韓電 我們有台電 那韓國也有韓電嘛韓電阿 它的這個 核能發電佔了三成左右韓國有人說阿 有人有一些小朋友說 我用核電用核電發電的話 我的這個電價會下降 是迷思欸"},{"start":10846.504,"end":10870.62,"text":"韓電燒錢比我們燒得更嚴重,它虧損比我們還多,它的核能佔了三成,我們目前只有6.3%,對不對?所以核能不是造成能源、能夠、電能夠下降的一個因素嘛。所以大家都很擔心,這個迷思說,哇,這個核電,我發展核電會讓能源的成本降低。"},{"start":10874.628,"end":10886.534,"text":"韓國的經驗要讓大家知道韓國百分之三十都是恆隆發電可是它虧損還比台灣更嚴重是的我時間到了我要做一個榜樣謝謝委員好 謝謝邱委員"},{"start":10901.018,"end":10922.578,"text":"好 謝謝下一位質詢請陳昌明委員謝謝召委首先有請郭部長還有水利市林沐市長還有自來水公司的李董事長"},{"start":10925.876,"end":10952.629,"text":"施理署副署長柏中啊我剛才聽到很奇怪我們的執政黨內越來越不掌勁人家是比高帶一間房子要賺錢我們是代表說比一個公我們比什麼公比較會賠錢我講這個就你思維有不同的我希望不要沉迷這樣什麼政策都要去辯護對就是對錯就是錯我們比高要賺錢"},{"start":10955.811,"end":10981.062,"text":"不要跟韓國跟日本來比,比虧錢了,那說起來很小事。好嗎?第二點,我今天怎麼特別請水利市跟自來水的公司,因為自來水在地方上是名稱非常重要,這幾年我非常深深地感受水利市跟自來水公司在苗栗縣這樣遠遠地一直鋪,"},{"start":10983.283,"end":11001.603,"text":"本來有一個鄉鎮59%現在到85%再繼續以下90%讓我覺得很有面子我特地來感謝他們這兩個單位第一我送給水利署、天花府、水庫趕快跟安排、我會安排跟我們縣長來討論如何要來籌建這個"},{"start":11005.453,"end":11016.729,"text":"今天我要跟部長推自來水公司討個人情自來水公司目前虧損171億負債EAA去借錢債務逾一個1300多億你都沒給錢花"},{"start":11022.156,"end":11048.934,"text":"所謂自來水公司都是很可憐的,人家就又不能請議員還要替人家撐傘,這可憐在哪裡呢?沒有水就說自來水要漲,有這多半都忘了,像最近颱風來了水庫滿滿的大家忘了但是你做保證,你說你最擅長財務的管理,希望給自來水公司多多的幫忙一下"},{"start":11050.172,"end":11066.637,"text":"他的理涉金入占18點多餘,占他成本的5.6,我看這有哪有國家來補貼啦,更重要讓自來水股能呼吸一下,你看完嗎?我來請述啦齁,我來請述一點我相信你的領導,你現在紅人,第一個"},{"start":11072.662,"end":11095.447,"text":"我經常在質詢我是清清代過,我是說你要聽我的意思我堅持反對中鋼這綠電買賣的售價平台,按照我反對我們的離岸風力的國產化,南北各一家北的是四季鋼,南的是中鋼,這公司很大很偉大"},{"start":11097.83,"end":11111.714,"text":"但是投資了64億,虧損到一毛錢沒有,沒有自我檢討,沒有自我講安卓人的成功,一本錢那抽,那抽不成功,十幾天湊起來做,做到紅紅紅紅。"},{"start":11114.435,"end":11131.046,"text":"我是有一點來看看既然中鋼營對綠電沒有貢獻硬的不行你又來吃軟的綠電品牌我間接反對這個不能只以擔當你可以選別給台電台電現在是再多不醜萬億虧損不差那一點點"},{"start":11133.507,"end":11157.835,"text":"如果賺錢可以彌補虧損對不對?你不知道算那堆斷了沒來行的中鋼那些來的啊?你曉得嗎?60幾億虧損他不會投資我感覺這很悲哀的事情尤其光電都在南部產生一個弊端中鋼已經被南部的私立把持連台電都不敢講話我一把你斷了這樣知道嗎?了解啊 再來"},{"start":11162.216,"end":11187.952,"text":"你說花絡剩下與蝴蝶自來我現在拿一個資料去看本來就要問了我不知道現在蘋果把台灣生產線移到印度英偉達把高端的晶片準備給韓國高通高端的機師也移到日本波音在台灣做一些零件全部"},{"start":11189.554,"end":11205.229,"text":"把他移出去。再來,我們的星巴克在台灣恍恍惚惚,現在總部要遷到印尼。再來,肯達基的物流中心在台灣,現在移到菲律賓澳。"},{"start":11206.81,"end":11226.485,"text":"特斯拉、馬斯克、太空訓練說臺灣的工廠都要到泰國、越南設一家分工廠,把它移出去。電裝全部延發在臺灣全部停止了。"},{"start":11227.302,"end":11248.98,"text":"所以說,如果你盛開這些為什麼要撤離國情?我告訴你,我記得我看一個資料,你說台積電的兩難民絕對不會移出去,你不還為難?然而這個政府把台積電當作禮物到處送,你講是擴大雄偉的實力,台積電真的很不想吃氣啊!"},{"start":11249.801,"end":11261.309,"text":"那是可憐啦!沒辦法啦!我們在別人的菜點那地方抬!講得最是一套喔!確確實實的內幕你最清楚!"},{"start":11262.079,"end":11289.685,"text":"那這裡面是代表發作、生開那些大公司應該要來怎麼只有我們的台積電把他外送出去我感覺你這個要檢討啦這兩件生存意義我們自己寧願曉得現在都大家不敢講未來這是戰爭的一個前兆你們都在暴露你們的執政黨到時候有人留在台灣嗎我跟你講這個叫做掏空台灣"},{"start":11292.114,"end":11297.028,"text":"一點有時候講起來又不能講明但是都要說好聽的"},{"start":11298.732,"end":11326.07,"text":"好不好,這點我希望大家應該很感受很深啦。您做兄弟倆,學到你知道啦。我們的大本營是富國深山,優惠四分五裂,絕對的。你的技術,連商業機密都要叫你交出來,你有什麼保障?再來,現在要說你的注意點。你手下的四家大公司,台電、中油、台水、台糖,"},{"start":11327.483,"end":11340.789,"text":"我看這個領事我看起來實在講彼一時的此一時的昨非今是今是昨非,策政的人要有擔當。我不知道你有擔當沒有擔當,你看起來很有擔當,這個趨勢都很好地,還有這個經驗地。"},{"start":11346.618,"end":11348.341,"text":"那為什麽要跟你談這個問題呢?馬英九前總統,郵件酸長,後屆執政黨首席他在民國97年5月,郵價調漲12%"},{"start":11359.554,"end":11362.418,"text":"民國97年7月油價再調漲4%電價調漲12%在民國101年4月油價漲10.7%電價漲29.5%因為現在實在讓民進黨很糟蹋"},{"start":11378.118,"end":11379.179,"text":"從97年101年拖到100年"},{"start":11399.636,"end":11423.664,"text":"一時連開始轉虧當然你有說新冠疫情當然你有說是兩岳的戰爭我現在上來聽看你有擔當嗎?看你有起票嗎?看你有真實做事嗎?台電很可憐的公司政策的左馬生你知道他到現在虧損一兆嗎?如果這兩千億撥給他"},{"start":11426.84,"end":11440.402,"text":"一共將金融撥走了6600億它在114年的quotient還繼續有3000億所以它是quotient的一兆中油將近4000億的quotient"},{"start":11442.915,"end":11458.872,"text":"自來水公司170億虧損,台糖公司只有賣土地、租土地賺錢。看你外國,你這個尖閣從業小公司做到這麼成功,你說財務你做了該來行,你有什麼辦法這樣來改過這問題嗎?我講得很實際喔。"},{"start":11464.912,"end":11488.568,"text":"如果廠長政策,他現在要討好選票,這8年都沒有漲到一毛錢,我愛百姓但是實際的話,非常困,這個是台灣政治悲哀的地方,台灣政治如果很虛偽的地方都不敢把真實的情況告訴百姓,台灣面臨的問題簡單一下,稍微做一下,一分鐘給部長回答"},{"start":11495.416,"end":11496.201,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11497.759,"end":11515.269,"text":"發言委員,我相信你所計較的部份,我都來檢討。我相信你有能力,明天要拿出來。可以不做官,可以要尊重為台灣百姓做事,不是掛在嘴裡,天天都講那些噁心裝的口號。謝謝,謝謝委員。陳昭明委員,與眾欣賞,為國為民,令人感動。部長請回座。"},{"start":11527.66,"end":11542.936,"text":"來 下一位質詢請羅志強委員主席有請郭部長跟曾董事長請經濟部郭部長排練曾董事長"},{"start":11548.84,"end":11570.118,"text":"委員好部長、董事長台中火力發電廠一期燃氣計畫的兩部燃氣機組預計何時上線明年跟後年2025年跟2026年那燃氣機組上線之後中火燃煤的一號機、二號機何時可以拆除"},{"start":11571.374,"end":11593.752,"text":"我們預計2026年底開始拆2026年底開始拆那明年中火第一部燃氣機組上線那是不是就可以同時去減煤了跟委員報告就是說中火已經從他原來的1800萬噸的用煤量降到現在1200萬噸的用煤量他其實是已經先降"},{"start":11595.237,"end":11601.459,"text":"臺電預估今年的藍莓用量是2450萬公噸,明年是多少?臺電預估今年的藍莓用量是2450萬公噸,明年是多少?大概2200萬左右"},{"start":11613.837,"end":11625.614,"text":"我想之前齁您是講是說你現在剛剛講是2026年嘛可是我剛剛看到我的資料是說你說等到2031年中火第二期的第一部燃氣機組上線齁才要開始減煤300萬噸嘛"},{"start":11628.26,"end":11646.054,"text":"是這個意思嗎?跟委員報告那個是我們在環評上面跟環評委員會提出來的屋頂的限制方案但是我調度上面只要調得過我們其實就會開始慢慢的只要用電量成長的幅度沒有特別高"},{"start":11647.255,"end":11660.399,"text":"其實是個屋頂我們只要調度可行我們就會逐步的來減煤那明年最明年主要是麥寮要下去所以麥寮那邊大概會減掉500萬噸那我想請教我們回到中火的問題中火10部燃煤機組的裝置發電容量是5500那個百萬瓦嘛對不對550萬千瓦"},{"start":11675.563,"end":11679.708,"text":"那2023年實際發電量是3600MW嘛對不對百萬瓦2023年實際發電量應該是270億度左右"},{"start":11688.564,"end":11705.379,"text":"嗯好沒關係我看你的計算基準就是用的那個單位不一樣那我要重點是什麼重點是講就是說實際上以所謂的實際發電量來對比所謂的中火一期的兩部燃氣機組"},{"start":11707.08,"end":11729.611,"text":"加上這個2026年可以完成的中加民營燃氣廠的裝置容量, 核氣大概就是3200這個百萬瓦嗎?是嗎?每個瓦?對,3200每個瓦那其實就跟新增的燃氣發電量幾乎跟現在中火燃煤發電量差不多啊,沒錯吧?"},{"start":11730.875,"end":11732.837,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":11747.448,"end":11762.723,"text":"要用一致單位我才有辦法跟你比較,因為手上我沒有幾億度的電啊。我這樣講,我不知道我原來拿到那個3600MW是什麼基準啊,但是我們基本上都是用煤量直接相關的。你裝置發電一般也未必用到嘛,對不對?"},{"start":11762.723,"end":11766.046,"text":"是。所以你用這個公司算下來是多少?"},{"start":11766.046,"end":11766.407,"text":"我們是5500MW。"},{"start":11769.366,"end":11795.732,"text":"你歸後再把實際數字給我好不好因為我這也是從台電資料抓下來的那你的數字跟我說跟我不一樣那你把實際數字給我所以我的問題是為什麼既然以所謂的發電量來看我講不是裝置容量那為什麼不能在一期的兩部燃氣機組上線的時候就開始及早減煤一定要做到2034年才能夠做到中火無煤化"},{"start":11796.892,"end":11812.498,"text":"我是認為你們的做法端可以再積極一點因為台中其實承擔這麼大的一個火力發電產生的所謂的一個排碳對台中人來講也不是很公平沒錯吧那個我跟委員報告就是說台中市的一年的用電度數是340億度那中火發電度數是270億度"},{"start":11817.94,"end":11842.788,"text":"實際上中間有個gap在內我要講就是說今天對台中的人來說的話實際上台中火力發電廠真的是舉世聞名沒錯吧你對那個台中的那個燃氣也好燃煤也好實際上造成台中空氣上的負擔我覺得這一點請你們再積極一點以上謝謝羅志祥委員來部長請回座下一位質詢請賴世保委員"},{"start":11854.14,"end":11877.386,"text":"謝謝主席有請經濟部的郭部長請經濟部的郭部長昨天在立法院關於台電最佳預算做一個中央報告要一千億毛"},{"start":11878.775,"end":11906.041,"text":"是那還有在我們立法院還有另外一個一千億增資一千億你知道嗎?嗯?增資還有一千億你知道嗎?沒有增資一千億有啦兩個一千億拜託還是補助一千億那就等於兩個一千億我就跟你講兩個一千億兩個一千億不是只有一千億如果你做了專案報告"},{"start":11907.674,"end":11908.756,"text":"最後立法院不買單你怎麼辦?彼此摸一摸就這樣子?漲低價還是什麼的?你怎麼辦?我們就是在財務上面去努力嘛就是去借錢啊"},{"start":11923.191,"end":11926.255,"text":"怎麼借錢呢?發公司債?發公司債?"},{"start":11926.255,"end":11939.111,"text":"都可以啊!我想財務的手段有很多種嘛!比如說?比如說就是跟銀行再繼續借啊!你現在借多少?現在借多少?發過...就剛才我需要的這個兩千億就是來補啊!"},{"start":11941.318,"end":11963.568,"text":"這臭人勒這句話部長啊我們立法院就不應該給你過啦這2000億不會給你過你有辦法去借錢啊為什麼給你過對不對你講的不清楚而且你一部就是無所謂的樣子你就無所謂我們有無所謂我們也一直在跟委員溝通就是說請大院能夠同意我們這一個2000億是要來彌補過去因為"},{"start":11969.051,"end":11980.258,"text":"民生的這個成本民生的成本高於我的售價所以這一部分我們是在沒有看到你努力阿你們用比較貴的生產成本的電源這個再生電源阿也是10%而已阿便宜的核電硬不要用大家沒有看到你這個有誠意你說我窮其一切努力沒有辦法啦跟立法院有錢立法院博友第二句話"},{"start":11996.488,"end":11996.568,"text":"發言委員"},{"start":12014.941,"end":12032.308,"text":"我們是在解決目前的問題我們會用綠電是現在我們用電戶他需要綠電至於您剛才所垂詢的這個核電的部分他也占我們一部分的這個現在沒有了現在是非核現在請問你知道核三廠的二號機一號二號機的大修現在是沒有"},{"start":12039.891,"end":12042.833,"text":"現在這個時候是廢物但是我們虧損的時候造成虧損的時候那個時候核電是在運作的"},{"start":12048.004,"end":12067.664,"text":"那我們增加的部分是綠電綠電是市場上需要的所以我必須要滿足市場的需求所以我們要增加綠電這個跟能源政策我相信每一個人的問題也不太一樣好 那我再問你喔因為我時間快到了你的核四2800多億怎麼處理"},{"start":12070.575,"end":12078.043,"text":"合適兩千半百多億怎麼處理?我們按照計劃去執行什麼叫按照計劃?你要講具體的啊?什麼叫按照計劃?聽不懂啊?那我請台電的這個董事長給你報告喔!可以部長這要知道這麼重要的事情你還跟人家跟你說不好意思你跟人家不好意思沒中捏"},{"start":12089.042,"end":12118.302,"text":"報告委員因為那個核四部分還有資產資產我們現在有多少資產不要用了那個電力設備包括電力設備其實還有其他的用途可以做規務請教部長啦部長給你一個你喜歡天馬行空我給你一個天馬行空我做球給你啦核四廠有沒有可能增加他的一個價值所以賣給需要的廠商可以嗎有沒有可能賣給人家這些都有可能啦有沒有可能有沒有開始在接觸"},{"start":12119.743,"end":12146.265,"text":"有沒有開始在接觸我們希望把價值升高把他的這個這個沒有用的提早解決2800億如果按照相關的會計準則他不等於零年金不等於幾十億而已啦想辦法讓他產生價值你的2000億不要跟立法院拿的不要跟馬國興拿的想法跟你是一樣的想辦法做到好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":12149.067,"end":12176.394,"text":"謝謝謝謝委員謝謝來部長回座來下一位諮詢請吳立華委員我們在李玉琳委員諮詢之後會休息休息時間我待會再宣布謝謝主席有請部長請經濟部顧部長還有台水公司"},{"start":12177.23,"end":12198.19,"text":"台海水公司李董事長謝謝委員好部長好就政府的政策我們一直希望能夠提升自來水的普及率那為著我們的用水安全但是在我們的原鄉齁其實過去比較不喜歡自來水"},{"start":12198.911,"end":12213.64,"text":"因為要花錢所以我們都有山泉水可以用而且喝起來比較清甜但是這幾年我們原鄉對自來水的需求越來越高最主要的原因就是因為天災不斷"},{"start":12214.64,"end":12241.155,"text":"所以為了用水的穩定開始原鄉也很急迫需要自來水那這個部分我還是要感謝因為我到立法院這些年我接受到這種自來水需求的申請非常的多那也謝謝逐一逐一的在座以我自己的家鄉馬家鄉來講你看光是嘉義村、梁山村"},{"start":12242.236,"end":12256.663,"text":"整個從會勘到整個規劃包括土地的無償取得加壓站配水池的設置比一般的平地地區複雜很多大概這樣子走完也要兩年所以"},{"start":12258.484,"end":12263.87,"text":"上個月我去達人鄉圖版他們就很開心那我去的時候其實我心裡也蠻難過因為他們告訴我說這個通水典禮其實他們已經等了12年所以我想這個部分對於這種偏鄉像是滿洲鄉最南邊的長樂、八瑤"},{"start":12279.046,"end":12298.331,"text":"那現在包括牡丹水庫它的用水正義到牡丹鄉加壓站的一直設置獅子鄉沿線向最後一里路伊屯草埔還有那個舊的來義村我想這些部分其實都是非常的偏遠但是呢我們也都做到我在這個地方還是要表達感謝"},{"start":12299.551,"end":12322.643,"text":"但是像有一些地方像是蘭嶼它也很需要自來水普及因為水對一個島來講其實非常的不容易取得那包括太安鄉他們那個很深山他們那個大興村沿館也是很辛苦要設好幾個配水池加壓站那不曉得進度如何了我是不是請董事長跟你報告好 謝謝好 謝謝委員的一個推詢那有關蘭嶼"},{"start":12328.893,"end":12356.803,"text":"這一個沿館的工程也在委員這邊的一個協調協助之下本來是有一些民眾有一些反對不過經過委員還有公所這邊協助這些原住民大概理解那我們工程也持續在好幾年了對 已經在進行了我們議定南乙以南業遊村的部分大概明年10月可以完工好 謝謝明年10月那另外"},{"start":12357.591,"end":12382.229,"text":"苗栗縣泰安鄉大新村的這個案目前是水利署用減水的方式來補助給泰安鄉公所新建三座配水池這個我們有做一些技術的一個協助審查我去過很多地方你看這個泰安鄉大新村每一次去召開說明會幾乎都是泉源道塞得滿滿滿的"},{"start":12383.63,"end":12404.119,"text":"所以可以感受到他們對這個自來水的需求比起其他地方高很多所以我特別關心希望可以更加的來關照他們的進度好不好那當然我更關心的是一些地方就是戶數很少因為我們原鄉你們也有你們的評比制度那像這種戶數少的更慘"},{"start":12405.339,"end":12431.104,"text":"其實我們原鄉是因為他離那個主管縣地理環境的關係很遠所以每次要算評比都很辛苦那這種戶數少得更辛苦但是我今天看到你們的預算報告有說第5期114到118有75億齁那我不曉得說因為我從進來立法院就一直講原鄉的地理環境成本效益很難壓在60萬元以下那不曉得這個一直講一直講有沒有改變啊"},{"start":12432.332,"end":12451.742,"text":"發言委員那在最近合訂的第5期計畫裡面原來的成本每戶是60萬現在已經提升到100萬而且檢疫自來水的部分我們加大力度在做維護管理跟很多的水質的改善所以在這一次都有做大幅的提升謝謝委員的"},{"start":12454.264,"end":12469.859,"text":"因為我們原鄉就像那個冰葬那股牆以前我們不習慣但是我們現在這幾年需求量就非常的高希望能夠多關注那我再請教一下部長因為在明年有一個五年一度的日本大阪市博會"},{"start":12470.82,"end":12486.156,"text":"這是很重要的活動那我之前呢有開過協調會有找國貿署外貿協會因為我很關心到底有沒有原住民的文化元素商品展演但是我發現原民會我那邊問進度齁他們跟我說沒有什麼進度欸"},{"start":12489.64,"end":12515.822,"text":"所以這個部分是不是事後來跟我報告為什麼我關切這個你看這是今年9月也是在大阪國立民族學博物館很大的博物館亞洲你看中國把我們原住民的服飾拿去辦一個策展叫做中國地域的文化所以我想這個不論是政治性也好文化性也好我想無論如何原住民的在地文化是我們出去的很重要好不好部長"},{"start":12516.983,"end":12544.82,"text":"那台電這個部分最後一個部分我一分鐘就好因為台電電纜地下滑你們都說已經高達44%高於日韓但是我們原鄉老基於風災啊火災防災的需求還有好風景的需求我們也很需要那我知道的是我關心的幾個案我發現其實市政府也都很願意來分攤但是好像一直沒有什麼進度而且我發現"},{"start":12545.6,"end":12570.345,"text":"像這次的風災或者是這些火災頻頻發生我本來有影片你看我照了好幾個影片都是電纜跟樹木然後造成森林大火所以這個有一些地區原鄉不是不需要電纜地下化那因為時間的關係那是不是一週內不好意思喔董事長跟部長就再來辦公室跟我來做報告好嗎"},{"start":12571.385,"end":12574.667,"text":"今天早上執行到李玉玲委員之後我們會休息40分鐘12點40"},{"start":12599.024,"end":12619.881,"text":"40分鐘等執行完之後我們休息40分鐘好下一位執行請李玉玲委員謝謝主席請經濟部的郭部長、台電公司的曾董事長委員好部長"},{"start":12628.479,"end":12654.716,"text":"我們賴清德總統曾經說要大力的來發展AI人工的智慧讓我們台灣可以在半導體產業跟AI的產業能夠立足在全世界成為一個科技島那部長也應該知道不管是我們的半導體還是AI的這個產業都非常需要大量的電但是我們台灣一直是缺電的情形雖然我們執政的政府一直講說沒有缺電但是還是有"},{"start":12656.897,"end":12662.118,"text":"停電跟跳電事件頻傳的來發生那尤其是天下雜誌的民調特別有提到有七成的民眾很擔心著台灣是缺電的風險另外有七成的民眾更是支持核電跟再生能源可以同步來一起的來發展尤其是在11月13號賴清德總統跟我們的工業總會特別有在談話中表示說只要新的能源能夠發展"},{"start":12685.542,"end":12703.288,"text":"順利到一定的程度還有安全的來處理這個整個核廢料的問題的話可以納入考慮所以部長這是不是就代表說我們賴總統對於核電的這個立場可以有調整而且還支持核電跟再生能源可以有社會共識一起來執行"},{"start":12704.79,"end":12729.692,"text":"報告委員我想您剛才在說這個七成的人擔心我們的電不夠我不知道這個是誰說的不過我在這裡鄭重的跟你報告我剛剛講的就是那個雜誌他們民調出來的結果雜誌民調的對象天下雜誌你一定要參考你不要忽略到我們社會大眾的觀感好不好是是是謝謝委員這個部分我們當然參考"},{"start":12731.419,"end":12735.163,"text":"我要跟你們報告的是說我們沒有缺電"},{"start":12736.819,"end":12751.931,"text":"有缺電還是有頻繁的這個跳電跟停電的問題嘛所以你們一再的保證又說明來澄清但是民眾還是擔心的所以現在我們要讓我們的成為科技島電就要穩定供電所以我現在要問的部長的問題就是說在我們桃園大潭電廠7號機跟9號機一再的延宕"},{"start":12761.238,"end":12767.823,"text":"雖然說有這個九號機已經點火測試了五月測試那八月份也已經併網了但是現在還沒有拿到能源局的執照還沒有辦法供電所以我們請了民間電廠、麥寮電廠他本來是在這個五月份、六月份的時候就要除役現在要延到明年的11月10號11月份明年的11月份才會來除役"},{"start":12788.24,"end":12792.41,"text":"所以這就是因為要補我們缺電的缺口嘛是不是"},{"start":12793.357,"end":12821.932,"text":"報告委員 不是不是那為什麼他要延後廚藝呢你是說那個麥寮那個是因為麥寮那個是不是台電的公司他是民營的啊他是民營的啊那廚藝的時間是到了啊今年的六月啊民營台電之間有契約時間雖然到了但是容量沒有到供電的容量沒有到你們有一套的說法啦那好我們回來講大潭的七號機跟九號機為什麼一直的延後呢"},{"start":12824.865,"end":12839.813,"text":"延後兩次囉王總經理報告委員之前7號機、9號機延後當然是因為COVID-19的關係還有就是惡霧戰爭、缺工等等這些因素但是目前這兩部機已經都在測試運轉了在測試中所以它平常都會有9號機"},{"start":12848.258,"end":12874.558,"text":"7號機是快的9號機已經在5月份測試了8月份併網了現在是7號機還沒有點火測試所以擔心的是萬一測試不成功的話我們是不是又有缺電的問題不會 因為7號機目前的測試的程序都是一步一步很扎實在進行還沒測試啊 什麼時候測試我說我們都會做局部的一個小的一個"},{"start":12875.258,"end":12879.603,"text":"他跟你講了7號機還沒有測試耶9號機測試了還沒發制造我現在問你7號機呢7號機12月初就會點火他測試要成功他失敗的話就沒辦法併網了"},{"start":12892.778,"end":12895.522,"text":"請部長、董事長、總經理加強控管整個的期程不要讓民眾有缺電的恐懼"},{"start":12907.415,"end":12912.157,"text":"臺電的先請回那我們講完電當然要講水那自來水的問題一直有這個漏水的問題跟管線老舊塑膠管線要太舊換新的問題尤其是我們李董事長非常認真的在汰換這管線但是我們把這個數據啊調出來看了之後你看這個漏水的問題"},{"start":12933.705,"end":12951.504,"text":"從各個區 總共有12個區還有加上屏東這些區域我們在平均112年的漏水率平均是12%但是你看到第一區第一區的話是基隆區漏水率是20%屏東區的漏水率還是19%所以這些問題為什麼沒辦法解決呢"},{"start":12956.829,"end":12959.33,"text":"跟委員報告因為第一區是我們基隆地區那他那邊的地形都是丘陵地所以我們加壓佔很多"},{"start":12975.342,"end":12998.39,"text":"那加壓供水管線就比較容易有破損所以要加強管控這個加壓供水雖然說我們這個老舊管線的汰換是有足年代的汰換但是我們這個看到我們這個數據裡面它這個供水的這個漏水率還是還是有增加的部分還是有增加的部分是不是你看到在102年到110年這個情形"},{"start":13006.96,"end":13029.947,"text":"應該我們漏水率是每個單位都有逐漸在減少所以我們的漏水率的話並不是年限的問題有些的話就是地震或是氣候環境的關係所以我們希望有漏水有爆管的我們就直接換新管好不好不要一直補都沒有用你補的後面的話你加壓下去的話它就會爆管了"},{"start":13031.155,"end":13051.726,"text":"對 這個本來在我們的降落的計畫中尤其是 董事長尤其是有塑膠管有塑膠管 我們塑膠管的話也是逐年汰換但是我們看到我們逐年看到這塑膠管的情形也是一樣啊尤其是你看到這個我們的使用年限使用年限的話本來102年是36%的話到了現在112年的話46%這個反而增加了反而增加了這是很奇怪的問題吧"},{"start":13060.017,"end":13072.665,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在那個因為塑膠管要使用年限大概20年可是我們逐年都在換啊這必須要逐年減少嘛所以這個是不是預算不足預算不足的話你就多編一些預算啊"},{"start":13074.242,"end":13100.396,"text":"我們塑膠管是類為優先來汰換使用年限我們現在使用年限是20年還是30年要換管的我們塑膠管是20年很多地方超過30年沒換管我相信自來水公司都有數據資料所以可以朝這方面來換管嘛因為它是30年還是塑膠管的話因為20年以上的機會還不是塑膠管你塑膠管停電再來電的時候它就會爆管"},{"start":13101.376,"end":13124.591,"text":"熱帳人說他就會報館而且塑膠管裡面有很多的誤會的雜誌在裡面是不是所以要優先好不好這是使用年限的問題第二個問題的話就是這個塑膠管的問題塑膠管我沒有看到啦塑膠管雖然你逐年他換的話他有減少部分但是我們希望齁這個一定要按時間來尤其我要提的就是說"},{"start":13125.171,"end":13148.223,"text":"很多的社區沒有使用自來水的他們申請的時候請董事長優先給他們換一個社區都是兩三百戶喔他們用黃米水在飲用因為現在的井水都被污染了所以請董事長尤其是社區的管線要申請自來水請你們優先給他們使用好不好因為是大的社區可不可以那我們要加強這個太舊換新的管線"},{"start":13150.504,"end":13151.304,"text":"我們現在休息12點50分繼續開會"},{"start":13192.143,"end":13192.263,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13218.431,"end":13219.111,"text":"委員會主席委員會議"},{"start":13239.144,"end":13246.413,"text":"有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份"},{"start":13265.944,"end":13267.105,"text":"委員會主席委員會長"},{"start":13283.015,"end":13283.555,"text":"委員會主席委員會長"},{"start":13310.762,"end":13311.983,"text":"對啦對啦對啦對啦對啦對啦對啦"},{"start":13345.644,"end":13346.385,"text":"全世界都可以這樣換"},{"start":13378.287,"end":13384.653,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟部主管：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣自來水股份有限公司：台灣自來水股份有限公司"},{"start":13402.231,"end":13404.755,"text":"公司公司公司公司公司"},{"start":13418.13,"end":13419.131,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":13447.739,"end":13448.059,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":13472.112,"end":13472.832,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13512.529,"end":13513.269,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":13542.904,"end":13543.064,"text":"議員﹚發言人﹚"},{"start":13571.21,"end":13572.012,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":13582.216,"end":13582.636,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":13615.745,"end":13616.746,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13627.765,"end":13636.728,"text":"有限公司有限公司有限公司有限公司有限公司有限公司有限公司有限公司有限公司"},{"start":13661.451,"end":13662.132,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":13684.959,"end":13685.299,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":13710.426,"end":13711.771,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13715.8,"end":13740.274,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟部主管：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣自來水股份有限公司：台灣自來水股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有"},{"start":13748.932,"end":13761.542,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟部總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":13781.584,"end":13782.065,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":13810.697,"end":13811.217,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":13835.196,"end":13836.476,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":13864.117,"end":13869.764,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟部主管：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣自來水股份有限公司。"},{"start":13886.17,"end":13900.8,"text":"中央電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司："},{"start":13917.456,"end":13927.978,"text":"一個半月,一個半月好多錢。打一碗,我們得修店的錢。這是我們的公司的股票。這是總管,大家不要的公司的股票。啊?我不知道,好了。"},{"start":13952.602,"end":13957.425,"text":"我不要下得這麼高反正我先把這個報告先寫出來我就是那個誰提的對不對這個蔡...欸不是蔡允潔"},{"start":13987.346,"end":13988.127,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14014.286,"end":14018.047,"text":"民眾委員民黨長那我 那個下禮拜總裁有任何"},{"start":14036.711,"end":14037.011,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":14067.039,"end":14068.408,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":14073.604,"end":14078.707,"text":"這個二九號的音樂會所謂的二九號的音樂會我後來想說應該是你來打他制造集那個"},{"start":14103.065,"end":14107.3,"text":"他就是要結個月會長我跟你講你不要把央行一些事情拿出來講"},{"start":15506.803,"end":15506.823,"text":"楊瓊英議員"},{"start":15533.11,"end":15551.751,"text":"委員好部長、董事長好綠電弊案掏空台灣綠電發展倒退了現在大家疑雲重重本期也非常希望一個國家應該是往正能量的方向去走但是疑雲這麼多我們還是要去理清楚執行到現在"},{"start":15553.12,"end":15573.172,"text":"部長,我們的現在所謂的淪為綠能的這個蟑螂啊,貪蟑王法,掏空台電的天堂。台南有神隱的,有力量的不利利益這麼多錢,最近又爆了彰化雲林。"},{"start":15574.852,"end":15596.678,"text":"你這個賺台電再生能源的賺購電費不法的利益有這麼多所以董事長你當時是擔任政次我相信當時你在執行政策的過程你應該是有參與過那你有沒有覺得你當時的執行政策方向怎麼會導致目前的弊案這麼多這個亂象為什麼"},{"start":15599.704,"end":15616.984,"text":"那個跟委員報告就是我們不管是光電或是其他再生能源案有很多都是用地管理用地管理 原因?用地管理 其中有一個很大部分真的是用地的管理"},{"start":15617.745,"end":15635.191,"text":"他的審查就有非常多的層級那在這個過程裡面我這樣子講包括連簽電線都有入權取得等等相關的問題我們看到現在有很多的案子有很多都是在那個細節的管理上面真的是出了很多的問題"},{"start":15636.511,"end":15636.971,"text":"跟委員報告就是說這個因為我們行政審查分權"},{"start":15654.443,"end":15675.042,"text":"就是分層負責的權利能不能夠統一一個標準其實站在我們經濟部的立場其實也表達過說我們是不是能夠把這些相關不管是容許許可等等的一些規範儘量標準化那經濟部一直在朝著這個方向所以還沒有辦法達成"},{"start":15676.603,"end":15685.515,"text":"因為真的是牽涉到非常所以這個真的是亂成一章中央跟地方也不同你是執行者也是決策者也是現在的董事長你看到這麼多問題部長"},{"start":15687.54,"end":15709.958,"text":"像這樣子難怪蟑螂四處讓我們台電整個天堂把我們挖空那所以本期要請教也就是說原因其實你們知道但是你們做不來也就在當時的決策橫向聯繫根本沒有辦法去做一個讓人民可以信賴的規範出來"},{"start":15711.98,"end":15737.2,"text":"所以在這樣的情況之下本席要請教關於電的囤購補助這個制度來退場減輕了利益的風險降低台電因為保證收購而承擔過度的壓力支持吧本席的立場支持吧這個我們可以納入考慮啦納入考慮是支持還不支持你總是要支持"},{"start":15738.041,"end":15755.26,"text":"支持才會納入考慮你的支持你不要笑我覺得這個很嚴肅的議題支持就是支持納入考慮就是納入考慮是支持那支持我們繼續來討論本來我們很想綠能的發展但是是倒退路的"},{"start":15756.101,"end":15772.446,"text":"部長你注意聽喔我們原本光電的賺夠的補助制度我們為了是什麼為什麼要補助因為我們為了要加強再生燃油的發展快一點鼓勵對不對這個搭朝正能量的方向但是光電跳票2026年要達到23萬不可能"},{"start":15776.523,"end":15805.495,"text":"目前有可能目前多少是可能目前多少什麼是可能我們是2025年目前才完成13.6是2025年然後現在是我們延到2026年2026年是要20GW所以我們要討論因為你之前跳票了來你延後一年對不對2025延後到2026對不對25年還沒到啊對你延後一年嘛你政策宣示了嘛你跟我咬文絕字做什麼對不對那目前你完成多少"},{"start":15807.438,"end":15819.8,"text":"目前是3.6啊那政府怎麼辦失職失能你把錢都花掉讓那個綠蟑螂剛才董事長講了綠蟑螂到處橫行那還有一個重點部長還有一個重點光電併網量不增反減為什麼為什麼照理講你認為很有信心啊你應該要增加今年單一的年度併網量可不可以達成兩個幾個月"},{"start":15837.239,"end":15859.031,"text":"請教這個我是不是請他們可不可以完成來請說明發言委員目前施工的量有達到2GW不過因為有一些地方政府的行政程序比較緩慢跟董事長講的一樣跟曾董講的一樣部長你聽所以你是達不到的現在外界告訴你今年的8月底是多少1.26GW"},{"start":15861.311,"end":15890.353,"text":"去年是多少?2.7幾個萬那換句話說你越弄越糟糕電電網越來越少怎麼辦怎麼辦你花了大批的錢剛剛所說的不管能源局不管是董事長所說的都是他們碰到這麼多的瓶頸答案是結果論是答不到的所以部長你要面對這個問題你要面對這個問題啊你明明答不到啊你明明答不到你要怎麼樣做"},{"start":15891.909,"end":15903.581,"text":"你反而花大把的錢導致你的這個光電併網量是越少跟以前是比較起來是越少這個邏輯講不通嗎這個邏輯是講不通的啊所以我告訴你你的量就已經少了啊"},{"start":15913.627,"end":15914.647,"text":"人民不是提款機"},{"start":15940.752,"end":15948.359,"text":"財務的缺口你有答應說什麼時候要拿出台電的這個財務改善計畫輸出來因為我們現在要審預算了什麼時候沒有沒有請問部長因為部長在大院以及在這邊都有答覆"},{"start":15958.988,"end":15973.882,"text":"我講今年底嘛今年年底嘛對啊所以你要誠懇的回答就今年底因為現在要審預算了來本席請問近三年如果再加上這一次的追加明年度的公務預算1000億三年5000億我請問你早上回答說如果如果115年還有個1000億這是真的假的啊"},{"start":15984,"end":16007.916,"text":"聽到這個會讓我們嚇一跳耶是真的假的請我願意給你說明清楚委員我可以講嗎我請你講啊我報告委員我們是真的假的這個一千億兩千億或者是將來的一千億都是在彌補過去的因為補助民生電價而造成這樣子的邏輯本席聽不下去本席請問針對本席的議題回答"},{"start":16009.983,"end":16015.252,"text":"也就是你的心中有沒有115年希望還要1000億來撥補有沒有你早上說了從你的口中說出來有沒有"},{"start":16019.864,"end":16048.513,"text":"你的心中有沒有預估115年你會不會再有1000億的來撥補會不會我現在沒有辦法判斷115年是不是要撥補你早上回答在這個都有會議記錄都有影音嘛是委員你說如果還有1000億啊大家聽了下一條委員千萬不要斷章取義來請你說明會不會你告訴我就好了會不會現在沒有辦法判斷現在沒有辦法判斷所以有可能謝謝"},{"start":16050.635,"end":16063.794,"text":"是不是?好,你不講,你雙手一攤。第二個本集請問,如果這個預算,這個追加跟明年度的預算真的給再兩千億、三年五千億,請問明年會不會漲價?"},{"start":16066.285,"end":16087.872,"text":"長假是電價審議委員的工作啦對 所以還是沒有辦法回答所以最後就成如你信中所說的你現在還沒有辦法預估你願不願意說115年不會再有1100億的這個波幅在你當任部長 會不會未來的事情我沒有辦法在這個地方回答那我們要問誰啊好 謝謝 歡迎時間到 梁委員"},{"start":16088.792,"end":16113.284,"text":"我們要問誰啊?人民不是提款機耶!我們現在台電4千多億的虧損!我們問你們,你們要拿出方針啊!對不對?我們會努力啦!我們真的會努力!我們大家一起努力!那個,發言事已經差不多很多了!我們以實際討論的問題因為你早上說了"},{"start":16118.286,"end":16119.506,"text":"請你趕快把你的財務規劃拿出來"},{"start":16148.432,"end":16173.344,"text":"我沒有辦法告訴他回答他不回答下次等你當主席再說我要確保夏威夷我公正不惡他有回答啦他有回答你沒有聽進去而已他回答不是你要的條件怎麼現在你在質詢我呢"},{"start":16178.51,"end":16178.931,"text":"請經濟部部長、台電曾董事長"},{"start":16211.104,"end":16215.162,"text":"台電成本來自發輸、配售各個環節成本都有上升"},{"start":16218.062,"end":16238.695,"text":"來部長我想跟您說一下我們之前講到國營事業球隊的保險的部分我們知道經濟部現在有積極在面對但是呢相關的進度我認為我們可以推進的更快但是我就不再利用時間在這邊跟您討論後續我們會持續追蹤但是對於你們的做法我們先給予正向的肯定另外呢其實在球隊裡面呢我們暑假都有規劃這個放電影對嗎部長你知道嗎"},{"start":16242.145,"end":16245.547,"text":"台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司："},{"start":16272.605,"end":16273.106,"text":"委員會大使"},{"start":16284.841,"end":16305.306,"text":"他做了哪些事情以台灣運動好事協會這是他自己成立的協會他做了什麼事情例如說他過往跟巴勒斯坦的女子棒球隊以贈送球具的方式創造了運動外交的連結當然那個送的球具不是你們給的他跟民間募款來的可是未來他們還有更多例如說他們想要跟孟加拉紐蘭發展計畫"},{"start":16306.866,"end":16331.685,"text":"做合作那他們即將在12月前往孟加拉舉辦教練研習營那這個研習營的部分呢他們要做的方法是辦理線上國際初階教練講習先協助孟加拉8位籃球教練獲得教練證照可是為什麼這件事情在孟加拉這麼重要部長您過去的產業經驗應該可以看得出來女性教練這件事情在孟加拉的意義跟重要性對不對"},{"start":16333.964,"end":16357.444,"text":"因為它本來就是一個對女性不甚友善的國家但如果可以透過運動這件事情讓女性的主體性被看見我覺得這件事情非常重要那以無論所大使劉伯鈞他目前要積極推動這個案例部長你覺得經濟部或者是台電我們有什麼樣的角度可以積極的促進運動外交協助這些無論所大使或者是協助其他民間相關的社團"},{"start":16358.687,"end":16368.824,"text":"我們都樂意來對這個運動來做推動那我想這個我們所屬的這個油煉糖水"},{"start":16369.69,"end":16391.569,"text":"我們都會把他建立一些球隊我認為這個有啦球隊現在都有了啦球隊現在有但我講的是這個運動外交的部分他只有台電嘛外交也不是只有台電可以做是我們有很多的這個但我們現在現有的這個球隊的部分有沒有機會我剛以這個孟加拉這個案子為例有沒有機會在後續促成一些合作的可能性"},{"start":16392.881,"end":16407.402,"text":"我們要看這個計畫啦希望達到的成果是什麼我想即使是國營的企業他對這些資助、贊助也必須要有目的有目的然後我們看到成果這個我們才繼續推動"},{"start":16408.203,"end":16434.578,"text":"有目的跟有正當性我覺得這個很重要尤其它是國家的預算所以我後續有兩點我最後的建議就是除了我剛剛說的那個孩子的部分孩子活動夏天冬天的娛樂營我認為這件事情要感謝你們持續的辦理那也希望給予相關球團跟球員肯定最後一個就是運動外交的部分那至於怎麼樣讓這個經費跟預算合理的使用或者是你們可以扮演什麼樣的角色我想後續我們是不是就再來進行討論"},{"start":16436.247,"end":16436.267,"text":"紅夢凱委員"},{"start":16465.949,"end":16489.707,"text":"來主席麻煩請我們郭智慧部長請進入郭部長來部長委員好延續昨天在院會齁持續在跟您做請教你有受訪或者說你在答詢的時候有講到是說即便是台電今年追加千億明年再補補千億明年還是會虧損是不是"},{"start":16497.225,"end":16503.472,"text":"臺電明年還是會虧損這你講的你講的不是嗎你答詢的時候你講的明年還是會虧損"},{"start":16506.038,"end":16525.475,"text":"累虧沒辦法累虧沒有辦法完全來處理啦累虧目前大家都推給說是原物料上漲的部分但是這個已經是老命題了嘛我們講是說如果說我們的原物料我們的發電方式我們的結構不改變的話你再怎麼樣虧損都還再怎麼樣的補貼都還是虧損啊"},{"start":16528.197,"end":16553.593,"text":"那羊毛出在羊身上一定還是所有的納稅人來買單,不是嗎?報告委員,我想從很多的數字上面來可以看得出來台電是一直在進步那造成台電虧損的大概兩個原因第一個原因就是我們的材料的成本非常的高而且這些材料的成本是從國外買進來的就國際原物料上漲嘛但原物料起起疊疊可是我們一直看到的是持續的虧損"},{"start":16555.074,"end":16570.471,"text":"我們沒有因為看到說國際原物料違規到原本的價格之後我們開店就不虧損因為這個就是您剛剛所指導的這部分也就是說我們對電價對從用電物裡面收到的這個價格"},{"start":16571.972,"end":16589.82,"text":"事實上沒有辦法讓我們反映,有一部分是沒有辦法反映成本。譬如說我們動漲啊,或者是對民生的這個部分,我們即使賣給,我們現在即使賣給民生的這個價格,還是虧錢。電價審議委員會到底有沒有政治利潔路?"},{"start":16595.002,"end":16620.342,"text":"電價審議委員會是獨立自主的是你又講獨立自主可是你又講是說現在沒有辦法如實反映電價我覺得聽不懂你們的邏輯這個是邏輯非常正確的完全聽不懂你們的邏輯來部長我再確認一下你今天的中午有在受訪講是說你看相關的核能民調支持已經有六七成是不是是媒體問的你看哪一份民調"},{"start":16623.361,"end":16652.08,"text":"媒體告訴我的啊你講是說他看郭志輝看相關核電民調支持已有六七成民主國家是多數的多數決所以核能共識這個命題不難你是看哪一份民調我就是說問那個媒體啊看哪個媒體問我呢但是你認為說核能共識在台灣有沒有多數決有沒有共識我認為台灣是一個民主的國家有沒有共識了現在"},{"start":16653.106,"end":16675.873,"text":"那這個可能要再討論嘛。 現在我們在總統府 今天聯合新聞網出來的快訊講說共識決 郭部長說已經有了 而核能安全在台灣也不難 我也同意啊 因為我們有核安會啊 那剩下就是核廢料問題怎麼處理"},{"start":16677.754,"end":16702.352,"text":"就是這三原則嗎?就是你現在你又改口又不敢承認你自己講了一個共識訣我們還想說說民進黨政府裡面還有一個腦袋相對比較清楚不到兩個小時你又改口了我沒有要套你的話這明明就是你自己的話啊你去看一下媒體報導好不好那你要不要更正?"},{"start":16704.857,"end":16712.948,"text":"要不要要求媒體更正我還是在這裡跟委員直接報告媒體問我說六七層部長來啦最後啦"},{"start":16715.56,"end":16744.066,"text":"部長真的說實在話你在擔任部長之前當董事長阿我覺得你的尷尬還比較有一點啦但是當了部長之後真的跌跌死撞死跌跌好像台灣的現況跟我們生活經濟部生活是完全是平行時空我只請教最後一點我是經濟部長我必須要發表行政院整體的運作是所以說你就是執行民進黨政府的意志嘛聽好本席的問題喔"},{"start":16745.006,"end":16770.533,"text":"那現在河山廠的二號機正在稅休稅休會到什麼時候12月上旬12月上旬那12月上旬之後會不會再重新啟動發電依法還是要啟動依法還是要啟動那我們會到什麼時候來做廚藝5月5月明年的5月那從12月到明年5月這中間河山廠二號機會不會產生核廢料"},{"start":16773.53,"end":16789.369,"text":"如果說運轉的話會不會當然會阿是啊那現在民進黨政府不是一直在講是說我要的三個原則和安、共識以及核廢料處理那如果說你現在沒有辦法有這個處理的方式標準的話你怎麼有辦法來重啟好 謝謝"},{"start":16791.694,"end":16813.101,"text":"他是在運作的現在是不是就已經有現在是不是已經有卓榮泰院長是不是有講如果說我要研議核能或說我要用核能發電的話我要用新核能那你現在核三廠的二號機你稅收完之後你這是新核能還是舊核能核三廠二號機算是新核能還是舊核能"},{"start":16814.916,"end":16837.729,"text":"核生廠2號機算是新核能還是舊核能?舊核能所以在你們的主政之下即便是現在我有這三前提但是我要用電的時候我還是要用就是要把它給用好用滿這就你的答案這不是法律規定啊這不是法律規定你也沒選擇如果說現在台灣的農業現在台灣能源夠的話你也可以不要用啊"},{"start":16838.889,"end":16859.759,"text":"這重點是現在台灣能源不夠,所以你們才會連一吃一毫的電你們都要用啊,不是嗎?謝謝,因為維持每一個委員發言公平性,今天我特別給你4加4,4加3.5啦,如果說部長能夠都回答問題的話,我們不會浪費時間"},{"start":16865.429,"end":16866.951,"text":"副總統請回座副總統請回座"},{"start":16889.272,"end":16899.469,"text":"謝謝趙偉趙偉我們請部長跟台電董事長等董事長結束之後我們再針對自來水的部分快速來問問題"},{"start":16902.04,"end":16924.598,"text":"委員好部長好董事長好董事長我們看到立法院的預算中心他的這個審查報告有提到說台電為使用或依原規定的使用之土地有計166件301筆那面積是27萬平方公尺左右那其中原定最後使用期間20年以上的土地有47件90筆那面積是4萬多平方公尺"},{"start":16925.461,"end":16944.642,"text":"那在民間公司的話因為部長以前也在民間公司那應該是很快速的就會來處理這些閒置資產來去增加營業的資金那我想請教董事長說未來針對這些部分怎麼樣做有效的利用可不可以請董事長來簡單的回應我們一下那個跟委員報告"},{"start":16945.743,"end":16972.97,"text":"就是在2021年的時候這一個數字其實預算中心有提過當時有129公頃現在是27公頃所以它其實改善的幅度相當的大那我也要跟委員報告就是說台電會有一些鐵台用地那零星的你剛才提到那個比數都不少加加起來就會有這一些可是我們這幾年包括變電站的新建還有電廠的新建通過環評有突破"},{"start":16974.93,"end":17002.623,"text":"所以整個使用的比例就開始提升相對來講沒有使用的面積也比較少那因為他的單位是平方公尺聽起來好幾萬所以就很大那你如果一般我們在考慮就是用公頃來算的話他現在是27公頃OK好我們換算27公頃反正說你從100多公頃降到20多公頃了所以這一個幅度是有的那部長你也認同說這樣子的這個速率或未來的方向"},{"start":17003.739,"end":17025.409,"text":"這個是我們統計的這個數字啦這有在下降那閒置的土地我想能夠處理我們當然會處理啦但是有一些就是說在鐵塔旁邊的這些土地啊這個就沒有辦法處理啦OK好那部長我們希望說未來可以更加有效的利用這些資產那接下來我們請這個自來水公司李董事長"},{"start":17033.342,"end":17052.694,"text":"董事長好還有部長這個之前我們在這個總諮詢的時候有提到我們均衡台灣裡面我覺得最重要的一點就是水的部分那現在全國的自來水普及率大概是95%但是再加一線我們山區的自來水這還有14000多戶目前是沒有這個接管的狀況"},{"start":17053.815,"end":17079.06,"text":"特別是我要舉幾個鄉鎮希望說部長也把這些鄉鎮記在腦海裡因為它是我們嘉義重要的鄉鎮也是我們全國一樣重要的景區包含大埔鄉、阿里山鄉、梅山鄉這些自來水的戶數它未接用的戶數還是高於供水戶數特別是大埔鄉我要強調它是真文水庫的所在地"},{"start":17079.62,"end":17095.101,"text":"也就是說他們在水庫旁邊卻沒有辦法使用到自來水所以這是一個非常嚴肅的問題我也認為說他是在我們均衡台灣裡面來把這個城鄉差距這個消擬掉一個非常重要的一步那當然在這幾年我們看到說"},{"start":17095.962,"end":17125.402,"text":"有在變化為什麼過去就是以每戶的戶數從60萬到平均費用60萬才做到80萬就可以做到現在是到100萬元就可以做我們看到說政府對於弱勢地區是有在進展但是我還是要誠懇的請這個董事長務必要把我們嘉義縣山區的這個部分納入明年無自來水的地區的沿管工程的計劃案那這邊有稍微整理一下上述的幾個鄉大埔鄉、梅山鄉、花園鄉、愛里山鄉、朱祺鄉"},{"start":17126.383,"end":17142.219,"text":"這些鄉鎮都是在我國最重要的阿里山的這個相關的風景區裡面所以這些居民們儘管在山區但是他們需要受到我們一樣的關注這個部分部長跟董事長是不是可以承諾來全力的來去把這個部分來完成"},{"start":17144.429,"end":17161.562,"text":"謝謝委員對於關心建在縣山區這幾個鄉鎮的用水那我們已經有調查過大概我們有提了12個案件已經報給水利署8月報給水利署希望納入5期明年能夠辦"},{"start":17162.324,"end":17186.748,"text":"謝謝 謝謝董事長 董事長我特別要強調最後一點就是就是說大埔鄉在曾文水沽 看得到水 喝不到水 這有點遺憾 儘快 儘速 我們會儘快儘速來處理這件事情大埔鄉 竹崎鄉 梅山鄉 方若鄉 阿里山鄉 都在山區 那過去城鄉差距很大 那經過幾個政府的努力 我們相信可以把它 一步一步把它做好 好不好 謝謝好 謝謝陳冠廷委員 部長請回座"},{"start":17191.894,"end":17193.015,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":17220.37,"end":17245.854,"text":"麻煩請經濟部長請經濟部國務部長好 部長今天大家都非常好奇就是說為什麼你對台積電特別有興趣啊你可不可以講一下為什麼你對台積電特別有興趣對台積電有興趣因為台積電是台灣的護國神山嘛對 當然啊那你一直要去了解什麼"},{"start":17247.399,"end":17270.854,"text":"你不是去熊本嗎?然後去幫忙,那是幫忙什麼事?幫忙他第一個,台積電是從台灣第一個到日本這麼大投資的公司我們當然希望他在那你做什麼具體有幫助到他的事情?幫助他?對!不然你去幹嘛?我當時瞭解他適不適應啊瞭解他適不適應,那後來你瞭解狀況怎麼樣?"},{"start":17272.182,"end":17278.251,"text":"了解到事況還不錯還不錯就是還不錯其實我對日本是非常了解的我大概這一輩子工作了50年"},{"start":17280.591,"end":17302.042,"text":"49年都是跟日本在在網台積電是我以前就非常熟悉的公司但是台積電過去在日本並琢磨的不深特別是在九州地區九州是一個比較保守的地區不像東京或者是明谷或者大阪是比較接觸國外比較多的"},{"start":17302.742,"end":17325.084,"text":"所以在九州地區唯一接觸比較多的市貸運輔市貸運輔 那個趙薇對我很不友善大家看過了喔你就直接講你到底去看了什麼然後幫助到台積電什麼嘛因為你現在不是商人嘛你現在是部長嘛部長就是政府的職位你去協助一個護國生大家很棒可是你講一下你到底"},{"start":17326.706,"end":17348.244,"text":"你不是說我去觀光我去了解然後以後回到業界之後這些知識對我有幫助我在部長累積到我未來做生意的知識這樣不行嘛對不起委員那我來跟你報告你很簡單講一下好不好好因為台積電去到日本被要求60%的材料是要從日本買的是"},{"start":17348.985,"end":17363.357,"text":"但是台積電在台灣他們發展60%的材料是跟台灣買的是所以我要幫助台灣的供應鏈進入到日本現在進入不了嗎沒有進入不了但是你進去那現在成效怎麼樣你進去"},{"start":17364.966,"end":17384.696,"text":"你進去然後你還不要幫助他我懂了我懂了所以你的意思是說你去不是幫助台積電阿你去是幫助台灣的供應鏈的廠商去被日本的人買嘛那現在成效怎麼樣成效還沒開始還沒開始你們都不讓我去阿喔那你去就那你設定的成效是怎麼樣"},{"start":17385.416,"end":17388.419,"text":"上一次在我們院會的時候你特別請假禮拜二到禮拜五跑去熊本"},{"start":17401.149,"end":17418.128,"text":"故意迴避總諮詢我沒有故意回避總諮詢為什麼那一次要特別請2到5因為2到5就可以迴避嘛你為什麼不是1到4為什麼不是假日去那你去現在問你成效如何你說因為你們不讓我去所以講不出的說意所以你一個一年要去幾次你才滿意"},{"start":17419.636,"end":17440.49,"text":"答標為止答標那去幾次要去幾次嘛那要去對阿我現在覺得你是去玩的阿因為你就拿不出具體成像出來阿對不起這個委員我再跟你請我再跟你請這樣我給你因為你沒有講去都有報告去都有報告一天跑幾個行程都有報告你剛剛就講不出來我跟你講如果說"},{"start":17441.391,"end":17448.134,"text":"明確答案很明確的話,部長,不是因為你從外開空開,你從盤古開開講起,我們問題都很明確,我們時間很有限,如果我今天有20分鐘,如果今天是一個談話會,我讓你慢慢講,那我們時間很有限,那我再跟你請教一下,因為美國商務部說啦,有66億美元是補助台積電在美國的,"},{"start":17463.291,"end":17486.002,"text":"然後希望臺電的A16先進技術製程要在美國,您有掌握到這個事嗎?我知道那你覺得這對台灣會有什麼影響?沒有影響那是好的影響嗎?因為我剛在別的地方,你們次長講說這是好的影響當然啊為什麼?因為他還需要台灣啊所以,那會不會讓台灣的產業外移不可能啊A16的這個研發室在台灣有8000人對"},{"start":17489.191,"end":17491.893,"text":"要完整的技術才有辦法移轉過去阿好 謝謝部長請回座"},{"start":17533.586,"end":17545.035,"text":"這個主席主持會議不管是哪個政黨不管是誰我都是一樣的標準剛正不惡絕對不會對特定人不友善"},{"start":17546.186,"end":17573.751,"text":"那我在講說的時候在這邊要說一些正經話不要說太多淘氣話這樣畢竟這是國會殿堂好登記發言委員除不在場之外其餘基因發言完畢詢答結束委員林德福所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報書面質詢及未及答案部分請相關單位於一周內以書面答問並複製本會"},{"start":17575.612,"end":17604.654,"text":"各位同仁,針對台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司預算案,如有修正動議或相關提案,請於11月26日下午10點以前,送經濟委員會辦公室,以立後續會診,欲時不在所案。本日所列討論事項,詢答結束,並定期繼續審查。現在三位,祝大家有個美好的一天。"},{"start":17607.988,"end":17608.169,"text":"主席"},{"start":17639.717,"end":17640.058,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":17670.304,"end":17671.247,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}