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所以部長也認為應該把犯罪所得定義清楚不應該讓法官各自為政 對吧好 次長我在5月7號的時候同樣質詢那時候是部長"},{"start":92.523,"end":116.052,"text":"部長說如果只要法庭做出的決定裁定跟法務部原來立法一直不同法務部會進行相關的修法而且你們還有公文5月21號的公文給我你們已經啟動修法作業今天我看到的是委員的版本我想問一下法務部的版本在哪裡我們6月送到行政院還沒有來什麼時候會來已經送出去了是嗎"},{"start":120.862,"end":145.94,"text":"行政院會要開會所以還不知道什麼時候會來但是你們已經做了你們的版本跟張委員的版本差不多嗎張委員的版本還是有一點點不一樣有一點點不一樣所以我現在要問的是你們的意見是什麼你們的版本會是什麼我想這牽涉到接下來你們這一次跟司法院溝通過了沒有"},{"start":149.588,"end":156.877,"text":"上一次我問的是你們的法沒有跟司法院溝通到法庭去有法官自己自由行政這一次有沒有溝通那個行政院會會審會會司法院所以你們自己不先溝通要等到行政院來溝通"},{"start":168.154,"end":189.951,"text":"我的意見就是很簡單啦一件事情要出來之前就應該溝通好了到立法院之後不應該發生刑事廳坐在現場法務部坐在現場我們通過的法條兩個單位不合作最後到法庭去讓法官自由行政今天的問題在這裡啊所以你們現在還是沒溝通我很難過我上次問的就是為什麼不溝通不可以先開會再寫法條嗎呃"},{"start":197.745,"end":215.343,"text":"行事廳有沒有表示過意見對 因為行政院本來就會邀請司法院 我們會在行政院溝通這就是為什麼一個法條到法院 到立法院了法院通過了 立法理由寫完了 到法庭去法官還可以用自己的私有行政 就是因為這樣吧"},{"start":216.894,"end":235.246,"text":"我們通過的法條法官不理解法官自己決定自己要怎麼解釋然後去搞了一個最高法高等法院的大法庭然後來裁定這不是很可笑嗎今天就不應該再發生同樣的錯誤我再講一遍46條47條是一樣的一個是自首一個是自白你只修47是不行的"},{"start":241.291,"end":264.2,"text":"我們的草案46在裡面因為委員看到的現在目前是47的版本所以我希望你們應該是完整的去調整第二個如果可能的話現在就應該啟動所謂的溝通機制吧等到行政院再去跟司法院溝通又要拖多久時間如果你們可以在草案擬出來的同時就已經請教過他們的意見就不會發生這些事情啊"},{"start":265.154,"end":270.739,"text":"不是嗎 部長這個國家不應該發生這種事不是嗎因為有時候是因為時間的問題就是說要到草案出來這段時間有多少時間那你們的意見是像這個就是說以所謂的全額填補被害人所受損害或者是跟被害人達成和解才可以減薪期刑嘛 對嗎對 不是賠償全部 而是"},{"start":292.037,"end":317.285,"text":"而是呢在延遲辯論終結以前呢有支付跟被害人達成調節或和解是全部金額就是他同意原諒你給你多少機會那個錢你付掉了你就有機會減輕其刑得減輕其刑所以付掉了還不一定減輕其刑就對了對所以重點是這件事情是你們自己想的還是司法院同意的我們有找學者開會"},{"start":320.748,"end":349.515,"text":"學者所以司法院從來不用表示意見就是你們自己決定就算了我們因為剛才我跟委員報告過就是因為你們的機制是這樣但是我覺得這個事情很簡單最後法庭才是最後的裁決者如果他們在事先不能表示意見的話就會發生每個法庭的法官講的都不一樣然後最後再來統一法律見解浪費人民的時間浪費立法院的時間我們還要重新立法"},{"start":351.581,"end":370.208,"text":"立法一直寫得那麼明確他還可以做出不同的解釋這才是今天中華民國最大的問題好嗎部長跟次長我希望你們跟司法院在打詐這件事情上面應該是一個team而不是這樣子分工分到最後讓司法院自己做主"},{"start":371.107,"end":395.709,"text":"可以做到嗎?多久之內可以做好這件事呢?我想應該會盡快盡快?然後行政院什麼時候會送來?不知道這個會情會不會?這個很急啊現在案子對法院審啊一大堆被告都在那邊等啊這個是很急迫的所以解釋以後所有的人付三千塊五千塊就沒事啦他會不會再犯?會啊"},{"start":397.028,"end":417.384,"text":"你什麼時候要做嘛法條來了你們也要送過來我想召委在這邊他一定會趕快排的還是說我們要自己幫你先通過我們會盡快處理我希望現在是六月底七月底前至少要到立法院來大家趕快討論趕快過一過然後現在法院的案子可以趕快結掉"},{"start":418.985,"end":441.957,"text":"好不好 一個月之內我希望在七月底以前可以送到這邊來拜託你去催促行政院快一點 拜託你們趕快跟司法院統一見解因為我們會 行政會會召開會議市長 我知道 都知道 麻煩你們快一點一年了 現在才要討論 不是很可笑嗎 你們一年前為什麼不討論"},{"start":443.596,"end":456.376,"text":"還要再去問人家意見可不可笑同樣的錯誤再發生第二次我覺得你們政務人員就要負責下台啊是再發生同樣的錯誤就不應該了啊好嗎是一個月之內 拜託了"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":831,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時52分）謝謝主席，我想請法務部次長及刑事廳吳法官。"],["主席：請次長及法官。"],["黃委員珊珊：也請一下部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長及次長，我想打詐這件事情，在形式上應該是內政部主導的業務，對吧？"],["劉部長世芳：報告，詐防條例裡面其實牽涉到四個主要的部會。"],["黃委員珊珊：對，但是由內政部主管嘛！法務部在這個案子，去年此時我們修正通過之後，發生了一個很嚴重的事情，就是高等法院的判決跟我們的立法意旨顯然不一樣，高等法院認為犯罪所得是那個車手賺的那幾千塊，所以進行了所謂的法庭辯論，刑事大法庭也作出了裁定，主要就是針對第四十七條裡面有關犯罪所得的認定。部長，在這個法條裡面，你的認知應該是怎樣？"],["劉部長世芳：我想黃委員講得非常正確，所以我們在這一次很尊重委員所提到有關第四十七條修正案的部分。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以部長也認為應該把犯罪所得定義清楚，不應該讓法官各自為政，對吧？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：好。次長，我在5月7號的時候同樣有質詢，那時候是部長，部長說，如果只要法庭作出的裁定跟法務部原來的立法意旨不同，法務部會進行相關的修法，而且你們還有將5月21號的公文給我，你們已經啟動修法作業，今天我看到的是委員的版本，我想問一下，法務部的版本在哪裡？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們6月送到行政院。"],["黃委員珊珊：還沒有來，什麼時候會來？已經送出去了，是嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：行政院要開會。"],["黃委員珊珊：要開會，所以還不知道什麼時候會來？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是你們已經做了，你們的版本跟張委員的版本差不多嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：張委員的版本……"],["黃委員珊珊：宏陸委員。"],["徐次長錫祥：還是有一點點不一樣。"],["黃委員珊珊：有一點點不一樣，所以我現在要問的是，你們的意見是什麼？你們的版本會是什麼？我想這牽涉到接下來……你們這一次跟司法院溝通過了沒有？"],["徐次長錫祥：還沒有開會。"],["黃委員珊珊：上一次我問的是，你們的法沒有跟司法院溝通，到法庭去由法官自己自由心證，這一次有沒有溝通？"],["徐次長錫祥：行政院會……"],["黃委員珊珊：會審？"],["徐次長錫祥：會司法院。"],["黃委員珊珊：會司法院？"],["徐次長錫祥：對，會討論。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你們自己不先溝通，要等到行政院來溝通？"],["徐次長錫祥：我想……"],["黃委員珊珊：我的意見就是很簡單啦！一件事情要出來之前，就應該溝通好了，到立法院之後，不應該發生刑事廳坐在現場、法務部坐在現場，我們通過的法條，兩個單位不合作，最後到法庭去讓法官自由心證，今天的問題在這裡，所以你們現在還是沒溝通，我很難過，我上次問的就是為什麼不溝通，不可以先開會再寫法條嗎？刑事廳有沒有表示過意見？"],["徐次長錫祥：因為行政院本來就會邀請司法院，我們會在行政院溝通。"],["黃委員珊珊：這就是為什麼一個法條到立法院，法通過了，立法理由寫完了，但到法庭去，法官還可以用自己的自由心證，就是因為這樣吧！我們通過的法條，法官不理解，法官自己決定要怎麼解釋，然後去搞了一個高等法院的大法庭來裁定，這不是很可笑嗎？今天就不應該再發生同樣的錯誤。我再講一遍，第四十六條、第四十七條是一樣的，一個是自首，一個是自白，你們只修第四十七條是不行的。"],["徐次長錫祥：我們的草案，第四十六在裡面。"],["黃委員珊珊：對，因為委員看到的目前是第四十七條的版本，所以我希望你們應該是完整的去調整。第二個，如果可能的話，現在就應該啟動所謂的溝通機制，等到行政院再去跟司法院溝通，又要拖多久時間？如果你們可以在草案擬出來的同時就已經請教過他們的意見，就不會發生這件事情啊，不是嗎，次長？"],["徐次長錫祥：是，當然、當然。"],["黃委員珊珊：這個國家不應該發生這種事，不是嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：有時候是因為時間的問題，就是要到草案出來，這段時間有給我們多少時間。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，次長，你們的意見是，以所謂的全額填補被害人所受損害或者是跟被害人達成和解才可以減輕其刑，對嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：你們的意思也是這樣嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：不是賠償全部，而是在言詞辯論終結以前，有支付跟被害人達成調解或和解之全部金額。"],["黃委員珊珊：就是他同意原諒你，給你多少機會，那個錢你付掉了，你就有機會減輕其刑。"],["徐次長錫祥：得減輕其刑。"],["黃委員珊珊：得減輕其刑？"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以付掉了還不一定減輕其刑就對了？"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以重點是，這件事情是你們自己想的還是司法院也同意的？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們有找學者來開會。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以司法院從來不用表示意見，就是你們自己決定就算了？"],["徐次長錫祥：剛才我跟委員報告過，就是因為時效……"],["黃委員珊珊：你們的機制是這樣，但是我覺得這個事情很簡單，法庭才是最後的裁決者，如果他們在事先不能表示意見的話，就會發生每個法庭的法官講的都不一樣，然後最後再來統一法律見解，浪費人民的時間、浪費立法院的時間，我們還要重新立法，立法意旨寫得那麼明確，他還可以做出不同的解釋，這才是今天中華民國最大的問題，好嗎？部長跟次長，我希望你們跟司法院在打詐這件事情上面應該是一個team，而不是這樣子分工，分到最後讓司法院自己作主，可以做到嗎？多久之內可以做好這件事呢？"],["徐次長錫祥：我想應該會儘快。"],["黃委員珊珊：儘快？"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：請問行政院什麼時候會送來？不知道，這個會期會不會？這個很急啊！現在案子在法院審，一大堆被告都在那邊等啊！"],["徐次長錫祥：這個是很急迫的。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以解釋以後，所有的人付3,000塊、5,000塊就沒事了啊！"],["徐次長錫祥：是，這個是很急迫的。"],["黃委員珊珊：他會不會再犯？會啊！你什麼時候做嘛？法條來了，你們也要送過來，我想召委在這邊，他一定會趕快排的，還是我們要自己幫你先通過？"],["徐次長錫祥：沒有，我們這個會儘快處理。"],["黃委員珊珊：是啊！現在是6月底，我希望7月底以前至少要到立法院來，大家趕快討論，趕快過一過，然後現在法院的案子可以趕快結掉。"],["徐次長錫祥：我們儘速。"],["黃委員珊珊：好不好？一個月之內，我希望在7月底以前可以送到這邊來，拜託你去催促行政院快一點，拜託你們趕快跟司法院統一見解。"],["徐次長錫祥：因為行政院會召開會議，然後也要會銜司法院。"],["黃委員珊珊：次長，我都知道，麻煩你們快一點！"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：一年了，現在才要討論，不是很可笑嗎？你們一年前為什麼不討論？還要再去問人家意見，可不可笑？同樣的錯再發生第二次，我覺得你們政務人員就要負責下臺啊！"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：再發生同樣的錯誤就不應該了啊，好嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：一個月之內，拜託了。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["主席：徐富癸、徐富癸、徐富癸委員不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。","王定宇、王定宇、王定宇委員不在。","楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請吳琪銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":74,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-27","speakers":["張宏陸","王定宇","王義川","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","黃建賓","黃捷","李柏毅","許宇甄","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","張啓楷","黃珊珊","吳琪銘","高金素梅","丁學忠","林楚茵","楊瓊瓔","徐富癸"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第27次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員王定宇等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第五十四條條文修正草案」案；二、審\n查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十三條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員\n張宏陸等30人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員林宜瑾\n等27人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員王義川等16人\n擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員陳素月等 18 人擬具\n「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1146401_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}