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麻煩請經濟部長"},{"start":19.949,"end":46.883,"text":"委員好部長好昨天你有提到禮拜一有提到說2026年綠電百分之二十是一定可以達標對不對但我們都知道說現在光電確實是發展遇到阻礙然後您是有提到說可以透過光電水力或地熱來補但我們的了解就是水力跟地熱實際上發展應該只能補一部分一小部分主要您可能還是把既往放在風電但風電的部分您真的那麼樂觀嗎"},{"start":48.044,"end":56.979,"text":"因為我的了解是好像今年跟去年外資都走了一批嘛所以你的那個底氣就風電你覺得可以發展的底氣來自於哪裡"},{"start":58.823,"end":81.168,"text":"我們大概有盤過這個所有的供應那麼我們也在最近希望把這個原來計畫的這個33能夠提早讓我們如果能夠提早然後第二個我們獎勵現在在施作31 32的廠商我們建議他能夠提早來on grid來供電"},{"start":82.068,"end":97.541,"text":"那麼最提早他進度的部分我們給予一些獎勵所以兩個部分嘛第一個你33要提前嘛但好像3-3會用到一些比如說3-1 3-2大家不要用的場域那些場域呢規模都是比較小的"},{"start":98.243,"end":107.911,"text":"所以這個部分開發商願不願意進駐這是一個很大的問題那第二個問題就是您說會提供一些獎勵讓他們提早問題是獎勵是什麼我們獎勵就是對現有的廠商都是適用什麼獎勵怎麼樣的獎勵我們的獎勵嘛看他什麼時候可以供電嘛所以會獎勵什麼"},{"start":120.609,"end":131.113,"text":"獎勵什麼對你說我會給你獎勵那你總是要說是譬如說給錢還是什麼獎勵嘛你要一個具體東西嘛我們獎勵就是說當他我們可以幫他購買這個他的店"},{"start":134.575,"end":152.263,"text":"幫他購買他的店因為這個基本上3-1 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那就是具體來說這個計畫是什麼時候要實施嘛它到底它的購電成本是多少嘛因為不能夠每一個過兩個月都講得不一樣啊"},{"start":272.355,"end":287.768,"text":"所以到底具體來說是怎樣這只是我們的計畫嘛計畫都可以討論嘛可以update嘛對不對根據環境的需求我今天到這個你們都講嘛說我為什麼要到菲律賓去然後你講的你們也不是很清楚嘛"},{"start":288.268,"end":314.163,"text":"那我說我要來報告這個部分菲律賓這個部分呢這個也不是我們的這個經濟部的重點嘛我們經濟部的重點就是滿足國內的用電需求然後我能夠在2040年的時候把再生能源提升到30%問題部長現在的問題就是你看喔你光是講一個菲律賓重電你的說法就一直在改變然後之前提出的構想大家請你來報告然後現在你又講說"},{"start":316.024,"end":336.245,"text":"我們暫時不考慮那就是會讓大家覺得你講話比較偏向信口開河對於你講話的信任度會打折扣經濟部長應該一言九鼎講出來的話應該就是要嘛就是計畫一部分要嘛就是說會具體朝向那個目標"},{"start":336.906,"end":356.572,"text":"但是話每次講出來都變來變去然後一下這樣一下那樣因為你這麼講所以我現在就不跟你討論這個菲律賓這件事這個不是我討論的問題啊是你今天大家會懷疑所以問你嘛會質疑嘛那你要來報告你要說明嘛具體怎麼樣你現在又說因為我這樣所以你就不跟我討論有那麼傲慢的部長嗎"},{"start":359.173,"end":383.371,"text":"今天從頭到尾菲律賓重電都是您本人提出來的嘛所以那時候經濟委員會也有討論過嘛那現在我只是在問進度而已那時候經濟部還做了一個 薩爾奇是做一個報告叫做什麼台菲的那個電力合作評估報告我引用的也是你報告的內容三月份的 然後五月份你接受媒體訪問又有一個新的說法那又再過了兩個月問你最新的進度 然後你說怎麼樣我不跟你講"},{"start":384.485,"end":407.648,"text":"有這麼傲慢的部長嗎這個叫做傲慢的話那我當然啊不是現在你講的東西大家問你進度而且這是攸關台灣能源的欸我今天不是在問你私人的問題欸我沒有問你什麼從業那些私人沒有我現在關心的是我們能源的政策欸然後你是部長你說欸我不跟你講我不是說我不跟你講我沒有講不跟你講這是你講那你剛剛怎麼說的"},{"start":409.305,"end":434.257,"text":"你剛剛怎麼說的我說這個問題我們現在不討論我不是不跟你講為什麼這個問題不討論那之前你來這邊報告了一兩次都是浪費時間嗎好 議員你如果認為有需要我可以排這個然後我們讓他我沒有說有需要我現在只是在問這個進度而已我們就排這個專案報告我只是問這個進度而已那部長從頭到尾這件事情都是您提出來的"},{"start":435.077,"end":463.346,"text":"只是在問進度那大家為什麼會關心能源就是因為很多點讓大家擔心說會有缺電的問題這也都是國人關心的那部長本來就應該回答跟解決啊是啊 我只是說在現在我們在找你如果需要的話我們可以跟你順便報告主席 那我還可以繼續問嗎那跟你請教別的問題啦那個我們現在假設"},{"start":465.066,"end":482.347,"text":"現在第一個菲律賓的光電是本來你提出來說可以補足台灣這個用電缺口的一塊嘛另外一個是我們接下來是不是要跟我看那個中油要跟那個阿拉斯加公司要簽一個天然氣開採的備忘錄嘛 我跟你請教一下這個問題"},{"start":484.122,"end":497.112,"text":"根據那個總統府秘書長潘孟安的說法是非常願意加入這個開發案但我看其他國家比如說日本日本國內對這個是質疑很多啦有幾件事情第一個他們認為這個開採成本會很高"},{"start":499.226,"end":522.251,"text":"第二他們覺得這會破壞生態所以有很多他們的團體寫信給日本的首相說不要參加然後有保險公司也說不要承保而且叫銀行不要融資所以日本國內對參加美國天然氣的這個開發案是有疑慮的我想問一下我們經濟部的態度我們參加這個是怎麼樣"},{"start":523.41,"end":548.86,"text":"我們參加的話這個是會根據我們中油的這個評估報告值得參加我們才會參加所以現在是覺得值得參加嗎因為我們現在這個跟他簽了MOU我們現在還在持續溝通中所以到目前為止還不確定是值得參加還是不值得參加是嗎那現在考量的點是什麼就是要參加有什麼好處不參加又有什麼考慮"},{"start":551.272,"end":573.627,"text":"參加不參加我想就基於專業的考量跟市場的機制阿拉斯加送天然氣跟油到我們這裡在交通上面在安全上面有充分的優勢如果說我們考慮到成本如果這個成本綜合成本比我們從其他的地區買來的油氣要低的話我們就會參加"},{"start":577.284,"end":601.646,"text":"你說只要跟美國買這個油氣比其他的地方成本低我們就會參加但是如果說跟美國買比其他國家比如說比澳洲比中東貴我們就不參加是這個意思嗎所以現在還在評估這個成本我們整體在評估這個總成本所以不見得一定會參加美國阿拉斯加天然氣的開發案聽起來是這樣我們希望說這個部分可以公開透明"},{"start":602.327,"end":617.287,"text":"因為這個參加阿拉斯加這個案子在日本其實大家都是很充分討論的但是在我們國內都沒有充分討論所以大家並不了解政府在做決策的時候考慮的點是什麼並沒有讓大家可以參與這個討論希望可以公開透明在這件事情上面"},{"start":618.759,"end":642.104,"text":"這個部長可以嗎 中油是公司啦中油是公司啦 國營企業會在這個董事會裡面充分的討論所有的董事都會成他自己的如果你說中油是公司 都由公司來決定的話那為什麼我們總統府秘書長他可以公開講說台灣很樂於參加這個開發案啊不是公司嗎 為什麼是由總統府秘書長來宣布"},{"start":643.174,"end":653.864,"text":"所以這本來就是公共政策的問題嘛希望可以公開透明啦因為在其他國家都沒有什麼不能對社會大眾講的在我們國家做什麼事情好像都很怕人家知道"},{"start":654.81,"end":678.928,"text":"但大家知道不是說 大家都是希望為了國家好如果政府可以提出一個說服大家的理由 當然去參加但是 而不是說我們有評估評估好我們就參加 不好我們就不參加是 謝謝委員那所以可以 這個部分可以公開嗎環境是不一樣啦 你指的是日本對 我說日本但是我們是台灣啦對啊 那為什麼日本可以 我們不可以咧很多日本可以 台灣不可以的事情"},{"start":680.351,"end":697.039,"text":"那這件事情為什麼日本可以台灣不可以因為日本他今天在要怎麼做他不是我們台灣的範本嘛當然日本要怎麼做不是我們辦法我們是說大家都一樣嘛都是要參加這個開發案別人做法是這樣我們做法卻不是這樣差別在哪嘛"},{"start":697.879,"end":711.239,"text":"部長我今天不是來跟你耍嘴皮子啦我們關心的是能源的問題這也是國人關心的啦是所以希望你可以誠懇的跟大家做說明啦不要用這一種態度啦報告委員我想我們希望的是專家討論啦"},{"start":714.945,"end":734.125,"text":"那你要管那所有的專家不是你指定居民的事情我想有很多的事情你把專業的事情做成政治的考慮我認為這一點我現在也是請你報告專業的事情我沒有講任何政治的考慮成本考量是政治嗎"},{"start":735.006,"end":763.589,"text":"沒有喔 不要扣帽子喔沒有啊 你剛才講說日本怎麼樣怎麼樣所以我們台灣就要怎麼樣怎麼樣日本也是用專家啊日本的專家他們也是用成本啊 生態啊 環保啊這些角度啊所以我剛才回答你也是我們按照你剛才所講的那你又沒有講啊你就從頭到尾就沒有講說你是怎麼考慮的嘛啊我只是說可不可以公開透明你可以讓更多專家參與嘛我剛才也說明很清楚我們也是專門考慮啊你完全都沒有講什麼內容我講的話你根本就不聽嘛沒有 我都有在聽你就沒有講內容嘛"},{"start":765.012,"end":780.485,"text":"我一直想聽你自己要聽的我沒有想要聽什麼謝謝大家 我們現在就休息好不好不是休息啊 結束了啊好 謝謝那登記發言委員初步在場"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1036,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時41分）主席好，麻煩請經濟部部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。禮拜一你有提到2026年綠電20%是一定可以達標，對不對？但我們都知道現在光電確實是發展遇到阻礙，您是有提到可以透過光電、水力或地熱來補，但我們的了解就是水力跟地熱實際上發展應該只能補一小部分，主要您可能還是寄望風電。但風電的部分，您真的那麼樂觀嗎？因為我的了解是，像今年跟去年外資都走了一批，所以您的那個底氣，就是你覺得可以發展風電的底氣來自於哪裡？"],["郭部長智輝：我們大概有盤過所有的供應，我們最近也希望把原來計畫的3-3如何能夠提早；第二個是我們獎勵現在施作的3-1、3-2廠商，我們建議他能夠提早on grid來供電，提早他進度的部分，我們給予一些獎勵。"],["葉委員元之：所以兩個部分：第一個，你3-3要提前，但好像3-3會用到一些比如3-1、3-2大家不要用的場域，那些場域規模都是比較小的，所以這個部分開發商願不願意進駐，這是一個很大的問題。第二個問題，您說會提供一些獎勵讓他們提早，問題是這個獎勵是什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：我們的獎勵就是對現有的廠商都適用。"],["葉委員元之：什麼獎勵？怎麼樣的獎勵？"],["郭部長智輝：我們就獎勵，看他什麼時候可以供電。"],["葉委員元之：對，所以會獎勵什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：獎勵什麼？"],["葉委員元之：你說我會給你獎勵，那你總是要說比如給錢還是什麼獎勵，你要有一個具體的東西。"],["郭部長智輝：我們的獎勵就是，我們可以幫他購買他的電，因為基本上，3-1、3-2，對他們來講，他們是零元躉購，那他主要是要賣給民間。但是我們可以透過獎勵制度，台電可以收購。"],["葉委員元之：我覺得部長都講得很模糊，就是人家要知道有什麼具體的獎勵，這是第一件事情。第二件事，我剛剛提到的，這也是提醒，3-3場域很多是規模很小的，人家不見得會願意進駐，所以你的樂觀我不知道是建立在什麼樣的基礎底下……"],["郭部長智輝：就建立在我們對所有的環境都非常地清楚，所以我們認為，我們經過整理以後可以吸引到這一些開發商來做。"],["葉委員元之：部長，您話都講得比較滿，但實際上是不是真的是這樣，我們保留啦！"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員的提醒。"],["葉委員元之：再來，如果我們國內的發展瓶頸，因為您之前也提到，就是可以去菲律賓買電嘛！那菲律賓種電運回來，光經濟部就有兩個版本的說法，3月份那時候講電池船不含發電成本，運輸就是5.5元，那是3月份講的；5月份的時候又說他種電運回來成本只要4塊，加上台電的輸配成本，大概一度是5塊，這是5月份講的。那我不曉得，現在您對於菲律賓種電然後運回來這件事情有沒有新的說法，還有它的進度是什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在先考慮在國內這邊的發展。"],["葉委員元之：所以菲律賓你現在就不考慮了？"],["郭部長智輝：菲律賓要看那個市場的需求。"],["葉委員元之：不是，部長，菲律賓這個是你自己去年提出來的，那時候大家在這個委員會還花很多時間討論。結果3月份講了一個說法，5月份講了一個說法，那今天快6月底了，問你，你又說我們不考慮了，我們還是以國內為主。"],["郭部長智輝：我沒有說不考慮。"],["葉委員元之：那就是，具體來說，這個計畫是什麼時候要實施嘛？到底他的購電成本是多少？因為不能夠過了兩個月都講得不一樣啊！所以到底具體來說是怎樣？"],["郭部長智輝：就只是我們的計畫，而計畫都是可以討論、可以update的嘛！對不對？根據環境的需求。你們都講我為什麼要到菲律賓，但也不一定很清楚嘛！那我說我要來報告菲律賓這個部分，但這也不是我們經濟部的重點嘛！經濟部的重點就是滿足國內的用電需求，然後能夠在2030年把再生能源比例提升到30%嘛！"],["葉委員元之：部長，現在的問題就是你光講一個菲律賓種電，說法就一直改變。你之前提出構想，大家請你來報告，現在你又講暫時不考慮！"],["郭部長智輝：但是就我看起來，委員你不支持我們這個想法啊！"],["葉委員元之：那就是大家覺得你講話比較偏向信口開河，對於你講話的信任度會打折扣。"],["郭部長智輝：我不是信口開河，我不能夠講……"],["葉委員元之：經濟部長應該一言九鼎，講出來的話要嘛就是計畫的一部分，要嘛就是會具體朝向那個目標。"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["葉委員元之：但你的話每次講出來之後都變來變去，一下這樣、一下那樣。"],["郭部長智輝：因為你這麼講，所以我現在就不跟你討論菲律賓這件事。"],["葉委員元之：這不是不跟我討論的問題啊！而是大家因為懷疑，所以問你、會質疑嘛！你既然來報告，就要說明具體情形怎麼樣，但你現在又說因為我這樣就不跟我討論，有那麼傲慢的部長嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不是傲慢啊！報告委員……"],["葉委員元之：有那麼傲慢嗎？從頭到尾，菲律賓種電都是您本人提出來的，所以經濟委員會也討論過嘛！現在我只是問進度而已。那時候經濟部還煞有其事地做了報告，叫做什麼「臺菲電力合作評估報告」，我引用的也是你們報告中的內容。報告是3月份的，5月份你接受媒體訪問時又有新的說法，再過兩個月問你最新的進度，你說「我不跟你講」，有這麼傲慢的部長嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這個叫做傲慢的話，那我……"],["葉委員元之：當然啊！針對你講的東西，大家問你進度，而且這是攸關臺灣能源欸！我今天不是在問你私人問題，我沒有問你崇越那些私人問題，沒有！我現在關心的是我們的能源政策，你是部長，卻說「我不跟你講」，可以這樣子啊？"],["郭部長智輝：我不是說「不跟你講」、我沒有講「不跟你講」，這是你講的。"],["葉委員元之：那你剛剛怎麼說的？"],["郭部長智輝：我是說這個問題我們現在不討論，不是不跟你講喔！"],["葉委員元之：為什麼這個問題不討論？"],["郭部長智輝：這個是……"],["葉委員元之：那之前你來這邊報告了一、兩次，都是浪費時間嗎？"],["主席：葉委員，你如果認為有需要，我可以安排，讓他來報告，好不好？"],["葉委員元之：我沒說有需要，現在只是在問進度而已！"],["主席：你如果覺得有需要，我們就安排這個專案報告，讓郭部長來報告。"],["葉委員元之：我只是在問進度而已。部長，這件事情從頭到尾都是您提出來的，我只是在問進度。"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["葉委員元之：大家為什麼會關心能源？就是因為有很多點讓大家擔心會有缺電問題。既然這都是國人關心的，部長本來就應該回答跟解決啊！"],["郭部長智輝：是，我只是說現在在找，如果你需要的話，我們可以給你書面報告。"],["葉委員元之：主席，我還可以繼續提問嗎？好。","跟你請教別的問題啦！我們現在的假設，第一，關於菲律賓光電，本來你提出可以補足臺灣用電缺口的一塊。另外一個是我看到中油接下來要跟阿拉斯加公司簽天然氣開採備忘錄，所以我要跟你請教這個問題。根據總統府秘書長潘孟安的說法，是非常願意加入這個開發案，但是我看了其他國家，譬如說日本，日本國內對於這件事質疑很多啦！有幾件事情，第一，他們認為開採成本會很高；第二，他們覺得會破壞生態。所以他們有很多團體寫信給日本首相，要求不要參加，也有保險公司表示將不承保，而且要求銀行不要融資，顯示日本國內對於參加美國天然氣開發案是有疑慮的。我想問一下經濟部的態度，我們參加這個是怎麼樣？"],["郭部長智輝：我們要參加的話，會根據中油的評估報告，如果值得參加，我們才會參加。"],["葉委員元之：所以現在是覺得值得參加嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們跟他們簽MOU一事現在還持續溝通中。"],["葉委員元之：所以到現在為止還不確定是值得參加還是不值得參加，是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們還在溝通中。"],["葉委員元之：現在考量的點是什麼？要參加有什麼好處，不參加又有什麼考慮？"],["郭部長智輝：我想，參加不參加是基於專業考量跟市場機制啦！阿拉斯加送天然氣跟油到我們這裡，在交通上、安全上有充分的優勢。再考慮成本，如果綜合成本比我們從其他地區買來的油氣要低的話，我們就會參加。"],["葉委員元之：你是說只要跟美國買油氣的成本比其他地方低，我們就會參加，但是如果跟美國買比向其他國家……譬如說比澳洲、比中東貴，我們就不參加，是這個意思嗎？所以現在還在評估成本，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：我們還在整體評估總成本。"],["葉委員元之：所以不見得一定會參加美國阿拉斯加天然氣的開發案？聽起來是這樣。"],["郭部長智輝：我們在做綜合專家評估。"],["葉委員元之：我希望這個部分可以公開透明啦！在日本，對於參加阿拉斯加這個案子，其實大家都是充分討論的，但是在我們國內都沒有充分討論，所以大家並不了解政府在做決策的時候考慮的點是什麼，因為並沒有讓大家參與討論，我希望在這件事情上可以公開透明，部長，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：中油是公司，所以我想他們……"],["葉委員元之：國營企業啦！"],["郭部長智輝：他們會在董事會裡充分討論啦！所有董事都會秉承自己的決定進行充分的討論。"],["葉委員元之：如果照你說的中油是公司、都由公司決定的話，為什麼總統府秘書長可以公開講臺灣很樂於參加這個開發案？不是公司嗎？為什麼是由總統府秘書長宣布？所以這本來就是公共政策的問題，我希望可以公開透明啦！因為在其他國家都沒有什麼不能對社會大眾講的，在我們國家卻是做什麼事情好像都很怕人家知道。但大家知道不是問題，因為大家都是為了國家好，如果政府可以提出一個足以說服大家的理由，當然可以參加，而不是只說我們有評估，評估好就參加、不好就不參加。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員啦！"],["葉委員元之：所以這部分可以公開嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：環境不一樣啦！你指的是日本。"],["葉委員元之：對，我是說日本。"],["郭部長智輝：但是我們是臺灣啦！"],["葉委員元之：對啊！那麼為什麼日本可以、我們不可以呢？"],["郭部長智輝：有很多日本可以、臺灣不可以的事情啊！"],["葉委員元之：那這件事情為什麼日本可以、臺灣不可以？"],["郭部長智輝：日本要怎麼做當然不是我們臺灣的範本啊！"],["葉委員元之：日本要怎麼做當然不是臺灣的範本，但我是說大家都一樣，大家都要參加這個開發案，別人的做法是這樣，我們的做法卻不是這樣，差別在哪？部長，我今天不是來跟你耍嘴皮子，我關心的是能源問題，這也是國人關心的啦！"],["郭部長智輝：是，所以我們的能源……"],["葉委員元之：希望你誠懇地跟大家說明，不要用這種態度啦！謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們希望的是專家討論啦！"],["葉委員元之：可以討論，但要廣納所有專家，而不是你指定的專家啊！"],["郭部長智輝：所有經營的事情、很多的事情，如果把專業的事情做成政治的考慮，我認為不需要這樣做。"],["葉委員元之：沒有喔！我現在也是請你報告專業的事情，沒有講任何政治的考慮喔！成本考量是政治嗎？沒有，不要扣帽子喔！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，你剛才講日本怎麼樣、怎麼樣，所以我們臺灣就要怎麼樣、怎麼樣，這就是政治考慮啊！"],["葉委員元之：日本也是問專家啊！他們也是用成本、生態、環保這些角度啊！"],["郭部長智輝：所以我剛才回答您的也是按照您剛才所講的報告啊！"],["葉委員元之：你沒有講啊！你從頭到尾都沒有講你們是怎麼考慮的嘛！而我只是說你可不可以公開、讓更多專家參與嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：我剛才已經說明了，你不聽啊！我剛才說明得很清楚，我們也是成本考慮啊！"],["葉委員元之：沒有，你完全都沒有講什麼內容啦！"],["郭部長智輝：我講的話你根本就不聽嘛！"],["葉委員元之：沒有，我都有在聽，你就沒有講內容嘛！謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：你只想聽你自己要聽的。"],["葉委員元之：我沒有想要聽什麼！"],["主席：謝謝大家，現在結束了。","登記發言委員除不在場外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員蔡易餘、呂玉玲、邱議瑩、牛煦庭所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答復部分請相關單位於一週內書面答復並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":464,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-17","speakers":["謝衣鳯","鄭正鈐","林岱樺","張嘉郡","張啓楷","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","陳超明","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","劉書彬","涂權吉","徐欣瑩","葉元之","蔡易餘","呂玉玲","邱議瑩","牛煦庭"],"page_start":397,"meetingDate":["2025-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、農業部部長及中央銀行首長就「因應國際經貿情勢\n變化，如何協助我國產業面對台幣匯率及國際能源價格遽變」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146401_00008"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}