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監察院王代理秘書長今天為了這個750萬的這個要動用第二預備金立法院專門財政委員會專門開這個會這個還不是只有委員會同意就可以了還要到院會去這功臣浩大"},{"start":30.974,"end":48.129,"text":"為了750萬所發揮的這些行政成本恐怕就已經佔了相當的比例了你看這麼多的立法委員要開一天的會然後立法院要為這個開一天的會然後要送到院會 全院的委員會來決議你不覺得這樣子有點功成浩大嗎"},{"start":51.757,"end":62.566,"text":"報告委員監察院的確是有時間上的急迫性然後真的有時虛那為了國家的形象所以會這樣子的提出走這樣子的預算法的程序"},{"start":63.547,"end":88.396,"text":"我就是提醒你觀察到最後才想要詳細的了解這個預算為什麼會被刪掉啊你們原來在本院在審理預算的時候你們委員會是內政司法法治委員會那司法法治委員會在審查預算的時候你們沒有跟他好好報告嗎你們沒有好好跟他們說明嗎為什麼這些委員要刪除你們這個預算呢可不可以說明一下"},{"start":92.707,"end":113.743,"text":"跟委員說明本院監察院的預算是在立法院的司法及法治委員會當時我們是提出來把這個相關的預算是放在議事的業務裡面總共剛剛有1800多萬然後在委員會審查的時候是沒有任何的結果就是保留送院會處理"},{"start":114.864,"end":135.145,"text":"我的意思是說在審查過程中因為我也在本院在立法院已經二十幾年了審查的過程中是我們這需要預算的單位要很積極的跟該委會的委員做溝通說明說這一筆經費對我們確實有急需有很需要你們有去做這個詳盡的說明嗎"},{"start":137.467,"end":156.041,"text":"跟我說明在審預算的過程中當時是我們的前秘書長李秘書長都有做非常詳細的說明然後我們也有特別強調本筆經費的重要性跟急迫性所以在委員會是全案保留送院會那院會的時候"},{"start":159.229,"end":165.438,"text":"在提出要刪減在院會這個階層提出要刪減這個預算的提案的時候你們有沒有機會來跟這個立法院的黨團各個黨團做說明做報告啊"},{"start":175.519,"end":192.598,"text":"在院會審查的時候原則上我們沒有這樣子的機會再做說明所以就是這個預算你們當初因為有需要所以你們編列了那編列送到本院來之後給司法法制委會審查你們的預算的時候"},{"start":193.578,"end":204.608,"text":"他是有經過詳細的說明但是全案保留送院會那院會提出三檢動議的這個過程中幾乎也沒有協討的機會嘛你們連講話的機會都沒有嘛這樣就預算就亂七八糟就亂砍一堆啦請問監察院的這些經費被砍到你們的理負院長有來跟我說明啊說被砍了90幾%啊"},{"start":218.849,"end":227.072,"text":"他說企務監察院就沒有辦法運作啊李副院長跟我們市立法院的老同事啊那你們以前的李秘書長也是我們的老同事李副院長"},{"start":231.713,"end":251.409,"text":"是我地方上我的朋友啊他就遇到我就跟我講說啊這個根本監察院就運作不下去啊那目前除了這750萬因為你們要辦這個世界的會年會的會議你認為有急需之外那其他的呢其他的監察院怎麼辦還是監察院這個機關所有的人都領薪水就好了什麼事情都不用做啊"},{"start":253.922,"end":276.901,"text":"跟委員說明監察院的確是相關的業務費用是佔了96%那所以是因為我們是憲政機關相關的監察業務甚至其他的法定的業務比如說像陽光司法國家人權等等的都必須要落實運作所以監察院在3月份的時候有提出"},{"start":277.882,"end":277.902,"text":"大廳話語"},{"start":299.534,"end":309.85,"text":"李副院長跟我講說電費只有繳到二月後面都是用欠的那你打算怎麼還台電這筆錢啊難怪台電都被這些政府機關欠電費難怪人家付不出來人家台電會虧損啊要補給人家利息嗎"},{"start":313.376,"end":337.371,"text":"更為說明 有關於本院到114年5月底我們總共已經欠費1150多萬元那其中有關於電費的部分呢 也是324萬我一個建議啦 這個你聽聽看啦假設這個機關不能運作 大家電都關起來也不要來上班然後在家裡睡覺等著領薪水就好啦因為這是 這是立法院把你們刪除的啊 又不是你們願意的"},{"start":340.296,"end":369.016,"text":"不然大家去立法院 去監察院開電 連電梯都沒有電可以用啊不能坐電梯啊 還不能開啊節省經費 電都關起來 冷氣不要吹對不對我們現在要不要廢除監察院 這是憲政層次的問題但是如果它事實上存在用這樣的方式對待我覺得這是不合理的啊真的沒道理啊 所以預算亂砍"},{"start":370.669,"end":372.59,"text":"面對大罷免才在那邊大緊張所以我就覺得說不能這樣子對外中華民國憲法啦你要修憲 走修憲的程序來嘛而不是立法院去侵奪其他各區各院的權責嘛我們立法院沒有比較大啊大家是平行機構啊也沒有鄰家在你們之上啊也沒有我比你大的問題啊"},{"start":393.149,"end":415.458,"text":"我不知道這樣講你這樣不贊成那希望今天你這個經費能夠通過啦如果通不過我覺得就看開一點啦回去跟李鴻鈞報告啦所以就是不要給我們過啊所以我們大家是不是就是解散回家然後一樣照頂洗水就好這是你剛講說是我的建議啦好不好好謝謝你好謝謝秉瑞接著請賴思寶委員質詢請在召委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":86,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時20分）主席，麻煩請監察院王代理秘書長。"],["主席：請監察院王代理秘書長。"],["吳委員秉叡：今天為了750萬要動用第二預備金，立法院財政委員會專門開這個會，這還不是只有委員會同意就可以了，還要到院會去，工程浩大！為了750萬所花費的這些行政成本，恐怕就已經占了相當的比例。你看這麼多的立法委員要開一天的會，立法院要為這個開一天的會，還要送到院會決議，你不覺得這樣有點工程浩大嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：監察院的確有時間上的急迫性，真的有時需，為了國家的形象，所以走這樣的預算法程序。"],["吳委員秉叡：我就是提醒你工程浩大，所以才想要詳細了解這個預算為什麼會被刪掉？原來本院審理預算的時候，主責你們的委員會是司法及法制委員會，司法及法制委員會在審查預算的時候，你們沒有跟他們好好報告嗎？你們沒有好好跟他們說明嗎？為什麼這些委員要刪除你們這個預算呢？可不可以說明一下？"],["王代理秘書長增華：監察院的預算是在立法院的司法及法制委員會，當時我們提出把相關預算放在議事業務裡面，總共有一千八百多萬，在委員會審查的時候沒有任何的結果，就保留送院會處理。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為我在立法院已經二十幾年了，在審查的過程中，需要預算的單位要很積極跟該委員會的委員溝通、說明這一筆經費你們確實有急需、很需要，你們有詳盡的說明嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：在審預算的過程中，當時我們的前秘書長──李秘書長都有非常詳細的說明，我們也有特別強調本筆經費的重要性跟急迫性。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以在委員會是全案保留送院會？在院會這個階層提出要刪減這個預算提案的時候，你們有沒有機會跟立法院各個黨團說明、報告？"],["王代理秘書長增華：在院會審查的時候，原則上，我們沒有這樣的機會再說明。"],["吳委員秉叡：這個預算是你們當初因為有需要，所以編列了，送到本院之後，交給司法及法制委員會審查你們的預算，有經過詳盡的說明，但是全案保留送院會。在院會提出刪減動議的過程中，幾乎也沒有協調的機會嘛！你們連講話的機會都沒有嘛！預算就這樣亂七八糟、亂砍一堆。監察院的這些經費被砍掉，你們的李副院長有來跟我說明，說被砍了九十幾%，他說監察院幾乎沒有辦法運作。李副院長跟我們是立法院的老同事，你們以前的李秘書長也是我們的老同事。李副院長是我地方上的朋友，他遇到我就跟我說，這個讓監察院根本就運作不下去。目前除了這750萬，因為你們要辦國際會議、年會認為有急需之外，那其他的，監察院怎麼辦？還是監察院這個機關所有的人都領薪水就好了，什麼事情都不用做？"],["王代理秘書長增華：的確，監察院相關的業務費用被刪了96%，因為我們是憲政機關，相關的監察業務，甚至其他法定業務，比如陽光四法、國家人權等等都必須要落實運作，所以監察院在3月份有到憲法法庭提出釋憲聲請案，5月28號憲法法庭已經受理。今天是因為這個經費相當確定而且有急迫性，所以我們依照預算法的相關規定，提出這樣的議案。"],["吳委員秉叡：另外，李副院長跟我說，電費只有繳到2月，後面都是用欠的，打算怎麼還台電這筆錢？台電都被這些政府機關欠電費，難怪會虧損，有要補給人家利息嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明，本院到114年5月底總共已經欠費一千一百五十多萬元，其中有關於電費的部分是323萬……"],["吳委員秉叡：我有一個建議，你聽聽看。假設機關真的不能運作，大家電都關起來，也不要來上班，在家裡睡覺等著領薪水就好了，因為這是立法院把你們刪除的，又不是你們願意的，要不然大家去監察院，連電梯都沒有電可以用，不能坐電梯，不能開啊！要節省經費，是不是把電都關起來、冷氣不要吹？對不對？我們現在要不要廢除監察院，這是憲政層次的問題，但是如果它事實上存在，用這樣的方式對待它，我覺得這個是不合理的，這沒道理呀！","所以預算亂砍，面對大罷免，又在那邊大緊張。我覺得不能這樣子對待中華民國憲法，你要修憲，就走修憲的程序來，而不是立法院去侵奪其他各院的權責，我們立法院沒有比較大，大家是平行機關，也沒有凌駕在你們之上，也沒有我比你大的問題啊！我不知道這樣講，你贊不贊成？"],["王代理秘書長增華：贊成。"],["吳委員秉叡：希望今天你們的經費能夠通過，如果通不過，我覺得就看開一點，回去跟李鴻鈞報告，說：就是不要給我們過，所以我們大家是不是解散回家，照領薪水就好？你跟他講這是我的建議，好不好？"],["王代理秘書長增華：好。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，謝謝你。"],["主席：謝謝秉叡。","接著請賴士葆委員質詢，請賴召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,36-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","顏寬恒","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","李坤城","陳玉珍","吳思瑤","李彥秀","陳培瑜","王世堅","黃珊珊","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","林倩綺","林思銘","羅明才"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函為監察院114年度辦理「2025年第37屆澳紐及太平洋地區監察使年會暨人權國際研\n討會」所需經費不敷，請同意動支114年度中央政府總預算第二預備金750萬元支應案","agenda_id":"1146401_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}