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度減少了236萬那第6個部分是一般建築備用因為監察院是一個國定股基所以我們分年分段慢慢進行維修整治那在維修的時候也同時更換這個所謂的空調系統跟其他相關的以達到節約能源的效果"},{"start":2376.624,"end":2402.235,"text":"這個部分編列了4,049萬比去年度減少了583萬那第7個部分是第一預備金這個編列302萬跟去年度是一樣的那有關113年的執行請請稅入的部分我們目前的執行率是81%那這個部分我們跟行政執行署密切的配合我們也希望能夠再往上衝一點那稅出的部分我們目前執行率是91%預期應該會超過這個數字"},{"start":2406.016,"end":2433.646,"text":"那在其他的部分在這個澄清調查彈劾糾舉的部分我們今年書狀的收受總共12499件那現在到10月為止提出的報告是227案那其中彈劾案18案彈劾人數是28人那糾正是81案那其他的調查報告是194案那巡查業務中央巡查27次地方巡查20次"},{"start":2435.226,"end":2447.373,"text":"有關陽光事法的宣導今年特別重視在所謂的利沖的部分確實有很多的案子被查到有違反利沖的部分我們今年自己辦了105場還有5場的宣導受邀報告利沖或是財產申報的部分總共有345場"},{"start":2457.498,"end":2484.088,"text":"在國際交流的部分今年參加了IOI這4年一次的會議這是國際監察主持同時也拜訪了澳洲跟荷蘭澳地利跟荷蘭的這個人權機構也跟他們的國會進行討論那有關人權業務的部分人權委員會自從在2020年8月成立以後我們摸索了兩年多成立了定下了中程計畫那現在依中程計畫在走"},{"start":2484.628,"end":2512.116,"text":"我們完成了5個獨立評估報告的評估意見另外還有10個專案報告那今年最特別的其中一個報告就是有關空服員女性穿著裙子的這個問題那現在已經我們希望沒有歧視的問題那也建議我們希望這個航空公司能夠讓空服員方便為主那現在已經有航空公司答應這樣做"},{"start":2513.556,"end":2535.045,"text":"另外人權委員會參加憲法法庭16次所以結語的部分我跟大家報告就是希望我們監察院114年的編列情形我們會積極繼續捍衛監察院的職權推動保障人權為公益把關請求各位委員能夠順利的審查我們的預算以上報告謝謝好謝謝那基本報告完畢"},{"start":2542.236,"end":2562.986,"text":"相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄現在我們開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記現在請第一位登記發言黃國昌委員進行發言"},{"start":2573.02,"end":2594.046,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩有請祕書長好,麻煩祕書長黃委員好祕書長好我今年3月的時候第一次質詢的時候我請教那個無償收受我們的吸金犯政治獻金的陳歐破我們依照政治獻金法開罰了沒有"},{"start":2596.078,"end":2623.019,"text":"這個部分現在因為司法偵查中所以我們暫停所以現在還在偵查當中嗎那我們依照政治獻金法我們裁罰的時效有多久五年五年嗎對這五年會因為司法偵查當中而停止計算嗎應該不會應該不會嗎對所以監察院打算等多久我們如果偵查超過五年以上就算了如果司法偵查結束我們就恢復偵查是那現在就變成的是說司法偵查有上線嗎時間"},{"start":2625.171,"end":2646.751,"text":"司法偵查時間沒上線嘛有可能三年嘛有可能五年嘛所以我們先確立一個原則啦這個是對事不對的從制度上面來講第一個如果有司法偵查的話有關於政治陷阱的採訪這個本來就不能對人啦只有政治陷阱不能對人啦可以請你聽我把問題說完嗎第一個是"},{"start":2649.654,"end":2668.306,"text":"就有關於政治獻金裁罰案件是不是有在司法偵查當中監察院這邊就會先停止看司法偵查的結果再決定要有什麼後續作為對這是根據監察法施行細則27條是還不是是我們通常會停止所以所有的案件都是這樣處理嗎對好第二個"},{"start":2669.307,"end":2684.181,"text":"但是我們在法律的制度上面必須要先思考一個問題如果司法偵查超過5年使得整個裁罰的時效都過去的話那怎麼辦我們會先釐清彼此的對價關係那如果有的話我們這個部分我們會來討論要討論什麼"},{"start":2687.003,"end":2703.877,"text":"因為你剛剛第一個原則嘛第一個原則就是司法偵查政治陷阱這個不能動嘛要等到他結束嘛那司法偵查有可能超過5年剛剛我們也討論過這件事了嘛那因為司法偵查超過5年的時效接下來要怎麼辦這是我的問題"},{"start":2705.663,"end":2726.221,"text":"所以我跟黃委員確定一下就是你認為說司法偵查如果超過5年會超過我們的5年期效對不對那我們通常我們會先討論說第一個他有沒有對家關係那第二個就是如果他不起訴的話我們就會繼續偵查沒有啊就變成的是如果不起訴結果就出來了嘛這個這麼簡單的問題你可以繞這麼久喔我現在告訴你就重新起算嘛"},{"start":2730.865,"end":2736.496,"text":"重新洗算對從什麼時候開始重新洗算我請我們處長跟你回答好不好來請處長"},{"start":2738.339,"end":2740.481,"text":"所以你的意思是說現在我們就有關於5年的時效"},{"start":2766.5,"end":2781.046,"text":"對是從判決確定以後或是不起訴確定以後起算嗎無罪確定後因為如果說他不是啊你不用無罪確定啊你不起訴確定不是也一樣嗎因為他如果確定是有罪的話那就不是政治陷阱請你聽問題好不好"},{"start":2781.966,"end":2809.339,"text":"你剛講無罪確定我說不請訴確定那不是一樣嗎是所以你的意思是說那五年的時效從判決確定或者是不請訴確定開始算對在之前的通通都不算就是不會就是中斷我可以從我的時效不會因為這樣而受到你那個時效中斷的事由是規定在哪裡行政法法26條行政法法26條你會等到不請訴確定或是無罪確定才開始起算這五年嗎對好很好來請秘書長"},{"start":2812.065,"end":2838.099,"text":"下一個問題這對監察院的預算大家其實都很關心出國的旅費年年攀升從我們過去這幾年看得出來到了今年大概1300萬了祕書長剛剛的確是有說明那前面之前有引發軒然大波去日本考察黑熊的保育他的意義在哪裡我也看到了監察院有發了一個"},{"start":2840.76,"end":2863.428,"text":"我們有一個新聞稿有新聞稿做回應說近年調查案件不少與自然保育有關係 32案還有原住民文化再加起來32案那這兩個加起來在你們所有調查案件的比例有多高比例算不低了因為我們調查的案件類型非常多來我們來看一下立法院預算中心是怎麼講的"},{"start":2864.568,"end":2883.23,"text":"立法院預算中心說有關於動物原住民族文化保存權益保障監察院他所提出來的報告占同時期的報告比例偏低只占1.2%所以其重大性是否足以列為優先考察事項有待審酌"},{"start":2884.451,"end":2896.241,"text":"來兩個部分跟方委員報告第一個部分這個是職員出國的部分題目是由職員自己選定第二個部分就是用這樣的數字來比較我認為有欠公允那怎麼樣的數字來比較你覺得認為好剛剛你說"},{"start":2899.281,"end":2924.424,"text":"比例不低嘛!立法院預算中心算出來是比例佔1.2%嘛!我們先確認一件事情啦!立法院預算中心的比例有沒有算錯?因為我們調查的案件非常多嘛!是!對!他這裡是從103年開始算起!是!32案不是從103年開始算起!是!所以你覺得他的計算基準不公平嗎?對!那你覺得他計算基準要怎麼算才公平?"},{"start":2925.104,"end":2951.002,"text":"我跟黃委員報告我的意思是說我們的職員認為說這個東西因為在近年來有32案兩個議題加起來有32案他們認為有討論的必要所以他們選定這個題目我們剛剛在談比例嘛阿你現在在談數字嘛那我們現在到底要談比例還是要談數字剛剛你說比例不低嘛所以我就說按照你的計算基準那個比例佔多少至少年度要一樣嘛"},{"start":2951.542,"end":2955.527,"text":"所以按照你們的計算比例是多少?所以按照你計算的比例應該有多少?"},{"start":2968.003,"end":2992.922,"text":"這個我們還要回去查一下沒關係你查完了以後順便回覆好不好好我們順便回覆答你們在想所以今年為例考察的主題就是日本的法官與懲戒制度對你們在為明年的預算捍衛的時候就討論今年你們派人到日本考察每年都不一樣是考察日本的法官跟懲戒制度來監察院去日本考察法官"},{"start":2994.165,"end":3021.757,"text":"彈劾及懲戒制度這個報告我念完了請問彈劾以後對於我們國家的制度具體的啟示考察的意義在哪裡可不可以說明一下這個報告我全部都看完了是 這個部分我們也在全院我們同仁有拿出來報告這個部分我們最主要認為它有差別性也有相同性差別性跟相同性就是彼此之間的制度不一樣"},{"start":3022.597,"end":3022.837,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":3047.338,"end":3060.385,"text":"那個今年我們去日本考察其實是最主要是因為現判111年的這我知道啦我時間有限我沒有時間提你從頭報告到尾但我可以負責任的跟你講"},{"start":3061.55,"end":3090.071,"text":"我從頭到尾全部拜讀完了我從頭到尾全部拜讀完了拜讀完了以後我看你們去日本東京去了五天嘛第一天最後一天扣掉有三天第三天的時候有跑去處理他們有關於彈劾的制度那沒有關係旅程大家都很疲憊到了第一天要休息一下最後也可能要休息一下這個我都理解我的問題很具體啊"},{"start":3091.263,"end":3108.699,"text":"你們拿今年的報告來幫明年的報告辯護嘛要跟全體的納稅人說這個錢啊花的有道理這個錢花的有價值嘛那我當然要負責任的審查預算那我就要去拜讀啊你從這個報告裡面去了日本一趟回來"},{"start":3109.84,"end":3128.05,"text":"對我國的彈劾制度對我國法官的懲戒制度到底產生了什麼樣的釋說釋說是日文常用的啦通常一般我們在講的是啟示嘛對我國國家制度的改革從你這次考察以後的心得具體的講講兩點就好是"},{"start":3130.451,"end":3156.29,"text":"第一就是我要說明一下說我們有去觀察東京都跟他的中央的國家的中央的機關的公務員的懲處的部分也有考察到懲處就是這包括他的人事院跟東京都的部分另外有關於法官的部分因為他的案件非常非常少總共76年才10案那我們就可以觀察出來說第一就是"},{"start":3156.63,"end":3157.831,"text":"不好意思喔 處長先請你等一下我剛剛很耐心的"},{"start":3184.298,"end":3202.783,"text":"在我有限的質詢的時間當中讓你充分發揮讓你充分發揮告訴全體國人我們這次去考察對我國制度的啟示跟勢說是什麼剛剛你有沒有把這個核心的問題做說明我相信我相信"},{"start":3204.542,"end":3233.447,"text":"所有透過現在的直播在看到的公民大家心裡都有一把尺我不做評價我心裡有我心裡的評價每一個看完你說明的人大家心裡都可以有評價來接下來請秘書長2009年我們立法院的總召柯建民跟我們現在已經成為總統的賴清德說監委出國巡查假查案曾光光要求三預算"},{"start":3234.824,"end":3261.477,"text":"我看到那個時候我們的柯建民跟賴清德這樣的提案看了非常的感動所以我就要接下去來看因為有時候我看你們的預算書那個預算書的編列真的蠻粗的啦真的蠻粗的是不是符合預算書編列的原則我們等一下馬上會處理到但我只是想具體的請教具體的請教2023年10月陳菊率團赴義大利訪查花了多少錢"},{"start":3263.916,"end":3265.717,"text":"10月現在沒有數字沒有關係因為這個問題可能秘書長沒有準備到我們詢答要公平可不可以書面一個禮拜之內回覆可以喔拜託花了多少錢從哪一個預算向下支出的請用書面回覆請用書面回覆可以嗎"},{"start":3294.076,"end":3307.808,"text":"因為啊率了這一大團去到底用預算書的哪一個向下支出的啊我負責任的從2023年的預算書啊你們編列的計畫院長的出遊我一樣一樣看沒有關係啦對對對別人是出遊但陳菊絕對不會出遊啦我們一樣一樣我們一樣一樣"},{"start":3319.192,"end":3319.592,"text":"委員長率領了4個"},{"start":3340.249,"end":3366.528,"text":"檢察委員還率領了五位隨行的同仁這個考察團算是大的啦這麼大的考察團回來了以後我看到這個心得跟建議只有一頁我看了其實覺得有點驚訝但沒有關係我也沒有要秘書長評價我今天是利用質詢的時間把所有的資訊攤出來所有的公民"},{"start":3367.449,"end":3385.615,"text":"都可以到監察院的網站上面去看監察院所交出來的報告他的內容他所花的錢是不是值得這個錢我相信大家心裡會有一把刺接下來2024年5月陳菊到奧地利集合然花了多少錢"},{"start":3387.639,"end":3404.893,"text":"這個應該就比較新了 這你錢你應該知道嘛那我跟黃元報告去荷蘭的部分是因為今年IOI的年會在荷蘭瞭解剛剛你報告的時候已經說了嘛奧地利的部分是因為IOI的總部在奧地利是是是 這個你剛剛都說明了所以總共花了多少錢所以總共花了多少錢這個部分詳細的數字兩百多萬兩百多多少"},{"start":3415.55,"end":3439.357,"text":"兩百二左右兩百二十萬嘛從哪一個預算科目下支出的參加國際會議相關事項來來來我現在喔把你們今年齁今年的預算今年的預算是去年審的嘛對二零二四年的預算表出來了嘛是來我把它列出來了來跟大家講一下這個錢從哪裡支的來我請我們王主委可以可以來請嘿"},{"start":3440.828,"end":3443.43,"text":"來來來 你看我現在給你的預算書 有在上面嗎 有在第幾頁 定期會議請您看右邊 定期會議參加國際監察組織會議 是的 指的是這個向下嗎 對 全部都是這個向下支的"},{"start":3465.509,"end":3482.947,"text":"因為我們還有去前往相關的人權相關的人權的單位所以除了這個向下還有哪一個向下還有人權的部分經費有來支應什麼叫人權的部分經費因為有關這一次的所以你是從其他的預算科目雲芝過來是不是"},{"start":3484.619,"end":3498.023,"text":"我跟黃委員報告齁這次去有兩個目的第一個參加這個會議第二個對人權的部分所以人權的部分我們也有編預算除了這個定期會議的向下以外對我就是要回答我就是要回答黃委員的問題兩個預算一個就是這一項預算另外一個是人權相關的編列的預算人權相關編列的預算在哪裡因為我要審預算嘛我要負責任的隊嘛"},{"start":3514.13,"end":3530.301,"text":"我要負責的對從哪一個向下支的人權的訪視考察部分編了400萬人權的訪視考察對人權訪視考察播了多少錢來支應這一次的國外訪查60萬播了60萬過來嘛這個是去奧地利嘛這個是去荷蘭嘛"},{"start":3541.738,"end":3569.693,"text":"我們出國巡查最後的結論跟成果我的態度一樣啦我邀請所有的公民上去看監察院的報告看完了這個報告以後再跟大家講覺得這個錢值得或不值得監察院有監察院的說法秘書長你剛也充分辯護了我相信大家都聽得到啦來接下來今年的花200萬到國外進行專案式訪視調查要去哪裡"},{"start":3572.984,"end":3598.425,"text":"我們要審預算我沒辦法這樣抽象的審啊你說你們要到國外進行專案式訪視調查要兩百萬嘛去哪裡今年還沒有規劃今年還沒有規劃114年的部分我們通常這個部分是看哪一個國邀請像今年度剛去完回來就是菲律賓那明年度我們現在還不確定所以你們明年這兩百萬要去哪裡你們不知道嗎我們目前還沒有確定目前還沒有確定"},{"start":3600.696,"end":3624.119,"text":"復國外專案性的訪視調查為什麼沒有納入派員出國計畫預算類別為什麼沒有我們都編列在考察的項目阿就是從一個項目沒有沒有沒有來來來來來來請你按照問題回答不要在那邊自說自話來看一下復國外進行專案性的訪視調查我的問題很具體喔"},{"start":3625.862,"end":3637.036,"text":"理論上法規上要納入派員出國計畫的預算類別表但你們卻沒有把它納進來藏在別的地方我的問題來了為什麼沒有納入"},{"start":3638.508,"end":3656.021,"text":"根據主計總署的編列手冊規定考察、視察、訪問、開會、談判、進修、研究、實習這八類是編在出國會議要計劃的那這兩百萬是沒有計劃的就是我剛才談過有國家的邀約這個我們就會參與所以沒有辦法在編列裡面剛剛你說主計總署114年度總預算編制作業手冊來看一下"},{"start":3664.079,"end":3692.238,"text":"各機關派員出國計劃預算類別表就是我剛講的那個表是他裡面要放什麼東西來看一下填表說明出國執行其他公務出國執行其他公務也要編進去啊怎麼沒有按照主計總處給你們編制預算的表編進去所以我剛已經唸給黃委員聽了就是這八項要列入嘛那沒有辦法在這八項來來來請你看一下填表說明啦"},{"start":3693.243,"end":3715.29,"text":"各機關派員出國．屬於下列事項要填列本表．加一秉定物．物的部分出國執行其他公務來我們再往回看我們再往回看來你復國外進行專案性訪視調查．屬不屬於這裡所講的出國執行其他公務"},{"start":3716.875,"end":3723.78,"text":"防事調查不是出國執行其他公務這不是出去執行公務那就是出去執行私務嗎"},{"start":3725.768,"end":3748.675,"text":"出去當然是公務阿,我們怕在其他項目阿所以問題就來了嘛,來再看一下各機關派員出國計算計劃預算類別表編制的手冊,寫的很清楚出國執行其他公務要編進去我剛就一張一張帶你們看就沒有在裡面嘛你們把它藏在其他的地方塞在這裡嘛"},{"start":3749.575,"end":3774.996,"text":"在這裡所以我才具體的問你第一個問題要去哪裡你又說不出來現在還沒有確定我有說錯嗎來我跟黃委員報告齁因為一開始人權的部分人權委員會的部分這個部分就不屬於你剛提供那個表來來來先停一下所以齁人權委員會預算的編列比較特殊啦人權委員會要出國的不用把它編制在復國外復國外"},{"start":3780.046,"end":3797.307,"text":"派員出國計劃預算類別表你的意思是這樣嗎沒有沒有我的意思我剛說明很清楚這我們依照主帝總組114年的規定另外沒有辦法列入這八項的就是其他項目我的問題才夠清楚啦這八項我再給你看嘛"},{"start":3798.43,"end":3806.46,"text":"各機關派員出國計劃預算類別表上面不是有出國執行其他公務嗎?這是其他國家邀約所以我們沒有辦法...這是其他事項"},{"start":3814.409,"end":3836.294,"text":"如果其他國家邀約其他國家出權預算書沒有編我就不會問你這個事嘛明明就編在預算書裡面嘛所以其他國家邀約我們國家出權就不用編在裡面喔他們也有來啊他們也有來啊所以是互相交流人權交流是非常重要的事情我沒有說人權交流不重要但我的問題是什麼我為什麼沒有編在那個總表裡"},{"start":3839.781,"end":3857.428,"text":"為什麼沒有編在那個總表裡原來計劃性的在計劃性的我們就編在總表裡非計劃性的就是這兩百萬來再看一下出國執行其他公務要不要編在裡面我就問你這件事嘛現在喔為什麼主計總署在編列這個的時候"},{"start":3859.397,"end":3875.333,"text":"他要去定這個原則是因為什麼是因為只要有派人出國大家就會很關心要去哪裡做什麼事情一項一項把它列出來但我在看你的預算書的時候我看得很細啦我看得非常的細我看到這一項"},{"start":3876.374,"end":3899.079,"text":"沒有所以我才覺得很呼吁嘛那我今天也具體的問你嘛你們是先框錢嘛說要赴國外進行專案式的訪視調查需要200萬嘛所以我今天請教你嘛請教你說這200萬要去哪裡來黃委員如果可以回到前面的您的powerpoint裡面齁我可以跟您說明來來前面第16大項裡面你要看哪一張"},{"start":3907.489,"end":3930.744,"text":"我請人權會執行秘書跟你講黃委員跟您報告一下那個先問我先問一下剛秘書長不知道但我覺得你可能會知道這200萬要去哪裡因為你是人權會的執行秘書嗎報告黃委員因為我們人權會的一些相關的方式必須要預案那所以就是要看明年有什麼專案性的需要"},{"start":3931.625,"end":3947.861,"text":"所以現在還不知道明年有什麼專案性的需要嗎?不好意思喔再請您等一下我只要跟你確定一件事情所以到此時此刻還不知道明年會有什麼預案要花這200萬對不對?"},{"start":3949.342,"end":3977.173,"text":"其實我們大概會有一個方向但是什麼樣的方向跟大家說明一下我們目前的方向是有可能會規劃去亞太這個區域的亞太這個區域的哪一個國家因為我們現在可能比較不方便還沒有很明確的跟對方談判這是機密外交是不是這不算機密外交但是因為我們還沒有很跟對方確認所以是不是讓我們確認以後然後後續跟您這邊再做說明"},{"start":3978.193,"end":3998.825,"text":"這樣子啦我不要占其他委員的時間今天我問的問題我都歡迎秘書長或者是監察院的同仁用書面回覆那我也相信監察院的同仁可以了解給我們的資訊又充足我們到時候在審預算的時候支持監察院預算的可能性"},{"start":3999.545,"end":4026.935,"text":"就會越高我跟會議員報告包括您剛剛提到2023年義大利的部分還有這個明年度就是114年度這個兩百萬我們目前的計畫為什麼這樣編我會提供書面說明來就請書面詳細因為我善意的跟秘書長講對我也善意的回答我們立法院在審預算的時候如果我覺得這個錢沒有必要或是我根本搞不清楚這個錢到底是要幹嘛的"},{"start":4028.26,"end":4055.715,"text":"我們站在國會幫人民看緊荷包的立場公帑不能隨便浪費這個是我們卓榮他院長的指示到時候再來進行審查我就是告訴黃委員我們會提出詳細的書面報告好那我們先由議事錄剛剛已經宣讀完畢沒有確定現在我們先確定議事錄請問各位委員就上次的會議事錄有錯誤或遺漏"},{"start":4057.108,"end":4058.309,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請李秘書長麻煩秘書長秘書長早"},{"start":4083.322,"end":4100.897,"text":"我們今天就監察院114年度的這個預算以及我們明年度所要推動的這個相關計畫來進行討論那我想對於監察院來說除了監察委員日常推動的這個政務和人權業務外每年也會編列預算來辦理考察"},{"start":4102.278,"end":4124.387,"text":"也有訪問跟開會等國際的交流相關的事務在推動當中在加強與世界各地的監察組織的交流合作也促進雙邊的良好互動關係尤其在明年度監察院再次要主辦澳紐及太平洋地區的監察史年會"},{"start":4125.487,"end":4127.508,"text":"應該是這個2011年還有2019年後我們第三度有機會由臺灣來主辦這場年會目前從這個預算書上面來看對於這個籌辦的"},{"start":4141.054,"end":4163.25,"text":"我們編列了750萬的經費來支應但是我們對這個活動的時間對象還有內容等具體的資訊還不是很清楚所以我想是不是就叫我們秘書長對我們明年所要辦的APPLE年會目前的規劃內容還有這個相關的這個可不可以比較詳細的來做一個說明一下"},{"start":4164.131,"end":4177.786,"text":"謝謝參議員我跟參議員做一個比較更清楚的一個說明Apple年會其實是整個國際監察組織就是所謂的IOI底下的一個區域就是我們參加的是澳紐太平洋地區的一個區域"},{"start":4179.227,"end":4203.902,"text":"這個區域是每年開年會的所以我們參加每年的年會Apple算是一個非常重要的那我們這一次又爭取到2025在台灣主辦所以這是繼2011、2019以後第三次在台灣主辦那預期我們現在規劃的時間是總共這個期程是三天那目前到底詳細的時間定在哪裡那或者是說相關的議題我們還在討論當中"},{"start":4206.664,"end":4214.151,"text":"那這個秘書長就等討論出來之後是不是可以給我一個詳細的這個內容好討論出來我們會給陳恆一個報告那相較於這個歷年來我們出國參加各國的這個監察組織的年會和研討會作為這個主辦國除了要對研討交流要讓與會的各國來賓能夠瞭解我國監察"},{"start":4230.547,"end":4253.56,"text":"的和人權的這個實踐那進一步能夠彰顯台灣在國際監察和人權組織當中所代表的一個重要性那我想再請教秘書長就是您認為應該要如何來展現我們在這個監察制度和人權發展上的成果才能夠充分發揮在這一次所舉辦的這個年會上並且發揮最大的效益"},{"start":4254.34,"end":4278.631,"text":"我跟陳委員報告因為這是國際監察組織底下的一個分區基本上在這一個類似每年的April年會裡面最重要的是彼此交流因為我們的制度跟其他人不太一樣我們有獨立的監察院其他國家不見得有我們也希望把我們監察院的特色告訴大家所以我們在討論的過程裡面有委員提到說例如陽光事法"},{"start":4279.151,"end":4294.209,"text":"陽光司法是監察院來負責執行那這個在其他國家裡面非常特殊而且曾經有其他國家請教我們這相關的問題所以也許這個會列為這一次討論的重點之一分享台灣的經驗"},{"start":4295.25,"end":4316.16,"text":"好,那如果我們參照前一次所舉辦的這個Apple年會的經驗除了規劃會議和研討會之外會後還會安排文化參訪的活動讓這個與會的各國貴賓能夠感受到臺灣之美例如我們上一次有安排去故宮還有去板橋的這個林家花園來參訪"},{"start":4317.882,"end":4327.562,"text":"是觀光客經常造訪的景點我想請教秘書長我們對於這一次的年會的安排我們會不會有類似的活動"},{"start":4328.311,"end":4352.825,"text":"我們會有參觀活動但是不一定是剛剛提到的地方我們希望跟監察院比較有關比如說監察院本身是一個古蹟另外比如說跟人權有關因為監察院同時也是國家人權委員會的所在所以跟人權有關的我們也許去看原住民地區或是看其他相關的部分不一定是剛剛提到的故宮或是其他地方"},{"start":4355.006,"end":4364.854,"text":"從媒體的報導當中我們也看到陳菊院長在今年5月前往荷蘭參加國際監察IOI年會的時候也誠摯邀請各國的會員能夠在明年的9月來台灣參加我們的年會"},{"start":4372.559,"end":4388.726,"text":"我們希望透過各種管道來擴大國際之間的交流同時也能夠精進我們監察和人權的業務有沒有可能我們監察院未來還有擴大國際活動參與和交流的一個空間"},{"start":4389.857,"end":4410.468,"text":"跟委員報告有我們另外除了這個IOI以外我們有參加一個FIO就是拉丁美洲的一個監察組織那今年非常特別今年是在巴拉圭舉行那今年由FIO的理事長正式提案把台灣列為正式會員所以從今年開始我們就是正式會員"},{"start":4411.508,"end":4432.97,"text":"所以這個部分也是跟拉丁美洲有關監察相關制度的一個交流這個國際交流是非常重要的那這個也是今年的一個重大成就好那因為近年來我們監察院在國際監察組織的這種經營過程當中付出了相當多的這個努力而且能夠增加台灣在國際上的這個能見度"},{"start":4434.792,"end":4456.985,"text":"應該我們也要不分黨派來給予鼓勵和相關的資源我也請我們監察院能夠慎重來辦理我們監察10年會也期待能夠達到所預期的一個效益和一個目標我們會來努力也希望各位委員不分黨派都能夠支持國際外交是非常重要的"},{"start":4460.226,"end":4485.194,"text":"針對剛剛講的相關的人權交流議題那會跟我接下來要討論的一個這個部分有一點類相關就是人權會編列超過這個1000萬的預算在辦理人權教材製作和教育推廣的工作而因為這個人權議題相當的廣泛包含國際公約規範的這個權力保障還有反歧視等等"},{"start":4485.754,"end":4504.495,"text":"但是從過去的調查資料當中得知國人對於五大人權公約的聽聞程度未達三成人權會作為人權工作專責的機關也期待我們能夠真正來落實人權教育的普及"},{"start":4505.186,"end":4532.038,"text":"我們也看到過去監察院致力於推動發行外文的刊物以利這個國際間的交流使用包括剛剛我們所講的要辦理這個APPLE年會的規劃當中也涵蓋了這個人權議題的相關的交流問題我想再請教我們人權會我們每年所開發的這種人權的教材大概有哪些推廣的形式"},{"start":4533.834,"end":4554.401,"text":"我跟委員簡單報告兩個很快第一個部分我們有外文的包括英文跟西班牙文的最主要就是我們剛剛參加IOI跟這個FEEL就是拉丁美洲的國家所以有英文跟西班牙文那另外在人權教材推廣我們跟教育部國家國教院合作訂了14個核心課程14個網路課程3個podcast的節目還有兩個參訪過程所有的人權教育的教材"},{"start":4563.804,"end":4591.566,"text":"跟其他部會合作也包括跟考試院的保訓會那另外我們現在正在做的是跟內政部警政署他們如何執行他們業務時候同時注意到人權我們正在編一個手冊這個就是監察院希望把人權的概念告訴大家那的確國人對人權相關的議題是比較陌生的這個也是我們為什麼要盡力來推廣的一個原因好 那我想請教秘書長我們剛剛講的這些文宣還有這些教材"},{"start":4592.147,"end":4597.984,"text":"我們可以透過什麼管道來取得如果委員需要的話我們會提供給委員好"},{"start":4600.09,"end":4619.663,"text":"網站也有啦我們的網站都有那在這個人權議題和這個人權發展的案例當中和公部門執行業務也有相關的這個連帶的關係所以目前也已經將人權課程的這個教材納入基礎訓練和晉升官的這個相關的訓練這是我們剛剛講跟保訓會合作保訓會負責訓練"},{"start":4625.746,"end":4651.196,"text":"尤其公部門要擴大引用AI使用的機會科技與人權之間的探討會更加的重要我還是請教有關我們人權教育未來是否會擴大辦理到公部門訓練和研討的規劃當中而人權會和人事總署還有考試院、國教院之間我們要如何來分工"},{"start":4652.197,"end":4673.116,"text":"兩個部分第一個部分就是跟國教院跟保訓會跟人事總署我們都有合作第二個部分就是對這樣的人權教育的推廣我們相當重是特別干安委員提到的AI這兩年我們的重點就是AI對人權的潛在影響我們還委託師大來做相關的研究另外我們也辦了國際研討會"},{"start":4675.736,"end":4700.011,"text":"我們也從監察院所提供的相關書面報告當中看到為了落實人權教育的推廣需要將青年族群納入推廣的主體並且要鼓勵對於人權議題進行能夠多元思考我想再請教秘書長我們與大學合作辦理的青年人權教育賠利辦理的情形如何"},{"start":4700.931,"end":4729.25,"text":"我們目前跟11所大學有合作過就是青年的人權議題相關的討論除了討論以外還請青年來瞭解我們邊的人權教材他們的適用這個都有包括大學還包括高中職11所大學那高中職高中職是測試我們的人權教材他們的接受程度我希望說未來我們看能不能向下普及對我們會向下特別大學的部分我們會更多的合作"},{"start":4730.951,"end":4752.618,"text":"最後我想請教的部分就是有關這個監察院近年來所提出的調查報告的這個案件類型由於國家人權委員會對於這個酷刑或是侵害人權還有歧視案件有關的這個調查責任從這個預算中心整理的這個資料來看對於涉及人權保障的案件"},{"start":4753.118,"end":4776.012,"text":"有下滑的情形我們從108年度的276件下滑到112年度的119件減少一半以上那其中攸關弱勢族群的居住權還有社會保障權等案件的數量也相對的偏低那我想再請教秘書長到底是什麼原因造成這樣的一個趨勢"},{"start":4777.453,"end":4801.863,"text":"我跟陳委員做一個說明兩個就八個字可以說明第一個是業務轉移第二個是標準不同業務轉移的意思就是我們20208月我們成立國家人權委員會以後很多的人權相關議題是移到人權委員會來那第二個部分就是這個標準不同什麼意思就是我們在人權會成立以後我們曾經在全院的談話會討論過就是"},{"start":4803.664,"end":4823.417,"text":"我們必須依照人權會所有對人權的界定跟標準才能列為人權案件過去說只要跟人權搭上邊都列為人權案件這個不行了現在已經調整了所以看到的好像是數字減少但是純粹從案件的數字這個是不標準的因為"},{"start":4824.398,"end":4833.511,"text":"業務轉移因為案件這個標準不同所以其實你看到的是減少但是實際上在人權委員會那邊的案件是非常大量的成長的"},{"start":4834.465,"end":4861.741,"text":"好,那我們也期待,期待我們人權會能夠將公約規範還有人權的議題深入到大眾的日常生活當中那也透過我們人權會的努力讓國人的人權意識能夠向上提升那相關的概念也能夠更加的普及共同來推動人權的理念也維護我們台灣整體人權的進步與保障這是我們努力的方向謝謝,謝謝秘書長"},{"start":4866.084,"end":4888.899,"text":"好 謝謝那我們接下來麻煩羅志強委員代理主席有請吳宗憲委員謝謝我們麻煩秘書長"},{"start":4895.378,"end":4895.539,"text":"有請秘書長"},{"start":4898.815,"end":4925.367,"text":"委員好秘書長早安請問秘書長我想秘書長現在擔任監察院的秘書長那一定很清楚監察院的職權是什麼嗎應該都非常的清楚那我想請問一下秘書長到底這個犯罪偵查決定被告要不要羈押或是對於被告要不要實施這個科技監控這個是不是監察委員的工作"},{"start":4926.472,"end":4952.934,"text":"這個不是確定不是嘛這個是司法院的工作司法院跟檢察法官跟檢察官的工作也不是司法院的工作嘛好那這個沒有錯這邏輯是完全正確但是呢監察院在11月7號的新聞稿有提到說他要而且他是明確就個案說台南地檢署對於被告涉嫌犯罪嫌疑重大有串證滅證通知於為何為像"},{"start":4955.396,"end":4978.637,"text":"台南地院申請科技監控有無重放等重大疏失還有台南地院有無延遲開庭導致被告逃亡然後這個東西不是就這個東西監察委員可以查嗎是兩個部分我跟吳委員報告第一個部分監察委員獨立行使職權所以委員要查什麼我們沒辦法干涉那第二個這個案子查的是防逃機制"},{"start":4979.578,"end":5003.275,"text":"防逃機制有關防逃機制我們查過7個案什麼叫防逃機制就是在這個過程當中怨檢有沒有疏失造成人辦跑掉那所以這個就是防逃機制包括過去的朱國榮這一次的陳取譽都是防逃機制所以監察委員調查是這一個部分好那個市長我跟你報告一件事情我跟你講一次非常的荒謬"},{"start":5007.037,"end":5034.97,"text":"從這件事情我們也可以看到我們這邊立委的水準以及非常多的民嘴側翼他們的特定立場我在11月4號的時候帶委員會去考察北檢有關偵查不公開的部分我們是就通案討論偵查不公開而且我們出發前以及到北檢之後都再三的說我們不討論個案我們也全程錄影避免被扣帽子那結果我們去看完北檢之後呢"},{"start":5036.798,"end":5056.595,"text":"檢察官我還請以前的同事看著檢察官論壇幾乎都是在抱怨北檢違反偵查不公開沒什麼人抱怨我們去去那個北檢去了解為什麼經常性的違反偵查不公開好結果呢我們這樣子去回來之後一堆"},{"start":5058.123,"end":5058.363,"text":"但我剛說的"},{"start":5083.923,"end":5110.906,"text":"檢察官論壇只有檢察官進得去的檢察官論壇沒什麼人批評我們幾乎都批評北檢檢察官有一個叫做建清檢改團體就是檢察官才能成立的團體好那這個團體也沒有批評我們就我們被瘋狂的說我們是介入個案結果監察院在11月7號發新聞稿是就台南地檢地院的個案他直接調查這個個案好"},{"start":5112.049,"end":5135.956,"text":"結果反而是檢察官起來抗議建清檢改直接發新聞稿抗議結果本委員會的無私藥委員、中家病委員都身影不見了還有一堆名嘴跟長期的側翼律師也都不見了所以兩相比較之下我為什麼提我們去北檢以及提監察院處理南檢這件事情"},{"start":5137.236,"end":5153.744,"text":"兩個非常明顯一個就不就個案就通案的去看長期為什麼北檢經常的違反偵查不公開結果被瘋狂的說我們介入個案結果監察院是直接點名要查哪一個案子"},{"start":5155.215,"end":5180.567,"text":"卻沒有任何一個人跑這些自稱在維護司法正義的律師律師民嘴以及本委員會的幾位委員卻都不見了我覺得這個非常的明顯然後我再跟您報告一件事情監察院自己的網站也寫得很清楚啊司法調查中的案子監察院不會介入那你剛剛說他今天要查的是一個什麼防逃機制"},{"start":5181.974,"end":5204.325,"text":"可是不是啊今天你是進去你點名個案欸你點名個案要去查他的東西欸那我再跟檢察跟那個秘書長報告一下因為秘書長你也是學法律你一定懂一個東西在台南的這個案子其實很明顯的一件事情就是他的問題是出在檢察官申請羈押"},{"start":5206.365,"end":5227.826,"text":"那檢察官怎麼申請其實這是檢察官的職權法官放不放人這個是法官的職權法官即便在這個案子他採的見解跟以往高院已經最高法院的法律見解不同這個我們也是尊重司法獨立審判所以我多次公開講南檢南院其實沒有違法上面的問題"},{"start":5230.097,"end":5230.117,"text":"拜託"},{"start":5251.582,"end":5277.736,"text":"秘書長 因為從上個會期到現在 我跟你討過很多次案子我真的覺得你不是像某些政務官是不講理的所以我可以接受你說監察委員獨立行使職權就像法院院長常搞不定法官一樣 這我都可以理解但是秘書長 是不是可以如同上個會期我跟秘書長您請教的高永誠在調查臺中地檢那個查詢問求案的時候"},{"start":5278.416,"end":5296.588,"text":"一樣的狀況嘛那個案子也造成漸進減改的反彈今天也是啊委員跟您報告您提的上個會期提的這個陳榮祥案我們後來也做了討論高委員也有在我們的院會裡面提出他的說明那他的說明是說其實懲戒法院認為確有為師只是還沒有到懲處的標準那這個我剛才說過了"},{"start":5301.972,"end":5311.53,"text":"就是這一案這個有關這個台言陳其域的這個事情我們委員有獨立行使職權的權利但是不是沒有委員沒有意見"},{"start":5312.659,"end":5329.038,"text":"我只能這樣說但是我跟你講就是說是這樣啦我們來提一個就是說您在去年預算會期的時候你有曾經有委員詢問過你監察權的事情我這邊說明一下你當時說的你說監察權是事後權"},{"start":5333.143,"end":5355.017,"text":"不是監察院追求的目標那監察院查的是公務員有無違法失職所以如果犯罪事實還沒有調查完就介入怕會掛一漏萬然後你還說監察院查的東西跟檢調單位不一樣監察院甚至要在檢調做完調查以後再介入所以監察院不追求時效性釐清相關事實才是重點"},{"start":5357.218,"end":5380.447,"text":"我到現在還是堅持這個原則這是監察法實行細則27條的相關規定但是這次委員做的完全不一樣啊委員獨立行使職權我沒有評論可是民主黨你真的不能夠給委員建議或什麼嗎所以我剛才提過了我們在委員裡面有大家有不同的意見有討論過那我作為幕僚長我不適合去評論委員你要不要這樣做"},{"start":5382.676,"end":5405.759,"text":"秘書長你在107年10月的時候107年10月你在質詢當時的監察院你也曾經講過一個東西你說案件怎麼調查跟監察院沒有關係法官做的爛也是司法院的問題跟偵查權無關你也批評監察委員不能不務正業所以從你以前的"},{"start":5406.823,"end":5424.341,"text":"立場因為我知道您剛有說你立場沒有變過那我也非常認同您的立場但是如果以您的立場再回過頭來看這一次監察某位特定的監察委員對於南檢南院為什麼不實施科技監控為什麼放人為什麼沒有申請我覺得這個部分"},{"start":5425.722,"end":5439.668,"text":"該位監察委員確實跟秘書長您的邏輯是不同的另外一個如果今天監察委員他要調查的是通案性的說法官在認為被告"},{"start":5440.779,"end":5467.956,"text":"沒有積壓必要而放他走的時候需不需要做電子繳聊等等的監控我覺得如果今天監察院是在處理這件事我想全國的法官檢察官不會有意見但是因為這一次的監察委員就是直接挑明了各案而且連日期什麼時候開庭哪一個被告怎麼樣都講了都全部都點出來那這個這個狀況下其實才會引起為什麼這一次的"},{"start":5468.957,"end":5492.444,"text":"建清檢改他們出來反彈還發新聞稿直接反彈所以我剛才會說比較我們當時去北檢做考察那在座的吳教委員當時也對我們的北檢考察有意見你比較我們去北檢的考察建清檢改沒有意見再去比較這次監察院去調查南檢南院反而造成建清檢改出來反彈其實兩個一比較之下"},{"start":5494.204,"end":5508.416,"text":"我只能就很遺憾的說這位特定的委員確實是已經介入個案的偵查啦我只能跟委員報告說我們委員獨立行止之權我作為幕僚長不會做任何評論但是我的原則一直沒有變"},{"start":5509.707,"end":5535.487,"text":"不是那秘書長那這樣是不是好像就有點放任委員獨立行使之前你想幹嘛就幹嘛獨立行使之前是憲法賦予的權責喔這個我們沒有辦法做任何的干涉喔但是事後我們會跟委員做討論這個我可以理解啦就像我剛剛跟您報告說其實法官獨立審判院長庭長常常搞不定這些法官這個我們也很常見啦很多檢察官也都不聽檢察長的話這個也很常見但是總是要"},{"start":5536.856,"end":5543.422,"text":"內部要有一些作為吧比如說因為很多委員他其實他並沒有相關的"},{"start":5545.136,"end":5573.508,"text":"．審查或審判的背景那我知道裡面也有檢察長出身的那是不是也可以請他去溝通一下其他委員然後能夠給他們一些建議而不是干涉就像吳委員去年提的這個陳中祥案我們也是在院會裡面有做討論嘛那高委員也做了說明嘛那所以這個部分我們尊重委員的獨立行使之權但是事後我們會有討論會有說明我想齁其實就是跟那個秘書長報告其實"},{"start":5575.25,"end":5592.346,"text":"不管立法院或者是誰有沒有介入個案其實在政客的嘴巴說出來只要跟他不同黨你全部叫介入個案你只要跟他同黨他就沒有聲音但是基層的檢察官建金減改協會我以前也是協會的議員"},{"start":5594.045,"end":5595.446,"text":"監察院的這個行為會反彈甚至公開的發表新聞稿我想"},{"start":5613.818,"end":5631.233,"text":"這個東西其實很明確了就是檢察官覺得自己的權利自己的獨立行使的職權以及受到侵害所以建議檢改協會他們建議檢改他們才會出來去發表這樣的言論所以我到這裡來我一直很不習慣的一點就是"},{"start":5632.307,"end":5645.71,"text":"政客跟車役永遠只有立場沒有是非他們講出來是胡扯胡說八道完全違反法律規定還可以講得頭頭是道我在這邊多次也經常性的看到這樣可是那些檢察官們基本上他們大致上都不會"},{"start":5646.61,"end":5664.236,"text":"所以在他們的眼中在檢察官在基層檢察官眼中就是是非對錯嘛你今天我們跳出來說北檢長期違反政法不公開你去檢察官論壇看各地檢常常在攻擊北檢為什麼要這樣違反政法不公開所以他們會有那個正義感會出來講話"},{"start":5666.378,"end":5680.869,"text":"我們今天去通案的調查他們就不會有意見可是當監察院這一次我覺得確實是引起他們的不滿所以這些基層檢察官才會出來那今天不管我是不是在幫基層檢察官講話我還是希望一個點就是"},{"start":5681.77,"end":5698.127,"text":"檢察院檢察權的行使還是不宜介入司法的個案但是就通案性的去了解比如說我剛說的到底一個被告申請羈押法官駁回檢察官的羈押的時候到底對於重大或者是"},{"start":5698.908,"end":5698.928,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":5718.354,"end":5745.589,"text":"很多政客或是側翼所講的講的天花亂墜人民不會不懂啦這些專業的檢察官法官不會不懂他們只是不敢講話我跟民主黨報告其實我很多以前的同事是這一段時間是非常不爽很多政府的一些作為只是他們在那個位置他不能出來講但他會一直跟我們抱怨甚至他們的立場本來就是很支持政府的在這段時間下來他們也開始會去動搖說到底"},{"start":5746.71,"end":5759.357,"text":"到底在做什麼所以我只是提出一個這樣子當然我也是很尊重秘書長您跟您的父親都是我非常尊重的對象我也能夠理解說監察委員獨立行使職權這個限制在那裡"},{"start":5763.072,"end":5773.722,"text":"所以我再提一個問題也是秘書長以前在當立委的時候一直提到說要廢除監察院問題其實我們先不要去講廢除監察院這個議題我只拿一個數據108年到112年彈劾成立的件數是我來念一下"},{"start":5780.148,"end":5796.088,"text":"18件、40件、16件、27件跟20件那到目前為止是今年到目前為止成立23件那我們一共有29個監委那一個人平均不到一件那這樣子是不是他的效能並沒有很好"},{"start":5798.05,"end":5826.471,"text":"彈劾的要件要很嚴謹因為彈劾會影響後續的發展所以彈劾的要件要非常嚴謹我們今年到現在是20幾件那彈劾的人數超過這個彈劾人數是28人所以這個部分我要特別跟吳委員報告就是我們現在對重大特殊案件的比例增加很多也就是說對大家社會關注的案件我們非常注意這件事情我們查得也非常嚴謹"},{"start":5827.412,"end":5855.632,"text":"是好那有一些老問題我想我就不因為時間的關係那最後我還是跟秘書長講一個就是說是不是可以去建議那一位調查南檢南院的那位監委不是強制他不是限制他就是說跟他道德勸說是不是可以撤回那個調查因為畢竟已經引起基層的法官檢察官不滿了好那再麻煩那個秘書長能夠就是您處理怎麼樣處理我都尊重我只是提一下這個議題好謝謝秘書長"},{"start":5876.787,"end":5878.188,"text":"我們下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言"},{"start":5887.506,"end":5888.726,"text":"其實整個監察院未來要何去何從"},{"start":5917.254,"end":5941.166,"text":"我們都知道很清楚要怎麼處理我們都提過案但是我們都是覺得說如果是一個根本之道其實要透過修憲的一個方式讓老百姓來真正來做一個決定的一個方式那你現在就是存在了他現在存在光去砍預算現在民眾黨那邊是認為說監察院是一個廢物院我們以前還是沒有說過這麼難聽我們以前說他盲腸"},{"start":5946.909,"end":5961.965,"text":"看來他會回歸到像三權分立的國家這樣子可是啦以現在機關在存在的話那預算如果像是民眾黨講的說要不然剩一公里就好你猜你們監察院的員工會怎麼樣的反應"},{"start":5966.143,"end":5976.849,"text":"這個部分會造成監察院所有相關的職權沒有辦法行使那這個...民主黨我的看法就跟你不一樣我如果是你監察院的委員跟我第一個想法就是YEAH!"},{"start":5976.849,"end":5977.149,"text":"痛死!"},{"start":5977.149,"end":5978.39,"text":"這事都不能做今年24明年25,25沒有碰到選舉年那26你就真的是很麻煩"},{"start":5986.354,"end":6000.524,"text":"你整個政治獻金法第4條的一個規定就是受理政治獻金的一個申報本來就是你們的職責那如果說到最後這個2022到20這是預測啦2025如果都一樣都延續這樣的一個方式的話那你認為會不會出很大的一個問題啊"},{"start":6009.997,"end":6036.66,"text":"一定會阿一定會阿 如果傷我們的預算造成我們沒法實際運作那當然會影響我們的權責 這個可能還涉及違憲的問題是 會涉及到違憲的問題喔大法官4-612就有講阿如果存一項阿你們有不然就很難過阿不然就很難過 大家唱歌阿其實大家立法院都覺得是在修理監察院 我覺得不是 這個就是在讓監察院變得很爽的一個單位阿"},{"start":6039.22,"end":6067.599,"text":"轉換個心情也是變成這樣可是這對嗎這就不對啊這個監察案就越來越離譜了但是我本席比較關心的就是說除了這個所謂的存費還有這次預算以外不管如何本席還是從幾個面向來看監察院他應該可以去發揮更積極的一個功能啊你像譬如說很多歐洲國家現在有納入了監察室的概念比如挪威去設立了兒童人權的監察室"},{"start":6069.02,"end":6097.231,"text":"他去專責保護兒童人權以便在兒童人權公約通過以後可以有效保障兒童的一個人權波蘭跟匈牙利他允許監察機關將調查獲得具體的建議直接去移送到法院裡面去那臺灣我們在2000年各界呼籲設立國家人權委員會當初是說到底要設在總統府啊行政院啊或者就監察院啊不一樣的意見那2020年以後通過監察院國家人權委員會的一個組織法"},{"start":6098.491,"end":6114.964,"text":"本席想就教的就是說以目前監察院的人權委員會是不是應該有更重要的貢獻來讓民眾來瞭解目前業務的一個狀況因為本席一直認為說人權委員會"},{"start":6119.265,"end":6135.827,"text":"與其是監察院現在被杯格說什麼廢物院什麼講的都難聽可是畢竟還沒有修憲之前反而是在整個人權委員會方面他應該可以有積極的貢獻我不曉得這部分秘書長你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":6136.327,"end":6152.992,"text":"這個部分確實如此我們也正努力在這樣做人權委員會成立到現在其實我們做過的事情相當多特別大家對人權委員會有很多的期待那我們的組織法第二條裡面規定了九項職權幾乎包山包海所有的人權都人權委員會要負責推動"},{"start":6155.432,"end":6182.202,"text":"這個部分所以我們到現在為止人權委員會有5個國家報告的獨立評估意見然後有10個專案的報告然後另外我們的案件有200多件那還有其他我們幾乎每年的活動都非常非常的多造成我們人權委員會的同仁非常的辛苦非常的累那現在也招不到人所以這個部分是我們一直在積極做的我們也希望人員能夠增加然後讓我們發揮更大的功能"},{"start":6182.842,"end":6197.877,"text":"本席一直認為說在監察院裡面人權委員會如果是整個按照整個組織反映他的功能去可以再去是進一步去發揮他的一個功能的話去可以更落實對整個人權實質上的一個保障為什麼這樣講"},{"start":6199.498,"end":6221.113,"text":"比如說在2000年期間2020年期間我就覺得非常可惜了2020年疫情期間那個時候疫情期間很多國家發布了有影響到人權的緊急命令比如說鎖國封城遷徙的自由檢疫隔離限制旅行自由這些等等甚至很多學校也去關閉了影響到學生的一個受教權"},{"start":6222.054,"end":6238.864,"text":"在國際上其實在比如說聯合國的國際人權委員會或者是經濟社會文化權利委員會或者說兒童權利委員會幾個單位裡面他們是立即的去發布了幾個緊急的一個指引"},{"start":6239.784,"end":6261.721,"text":"他們發布的指引要求各國在限制老百姓正當的權利的時候你要去明定確保國家一方面要求人民在居家隔離限制一定範圍的一個活動的時候你讓傳染病可以去得到一二指另一方面又不會去過度侵犯到人民的基本權"},{"start":6263.444,"end":6286.904,"text":"別的國家其實是這樣那我們這個部分我覺得比較可惜了我們當初啊當初啊我們在2020年啊比如說到2021年啊我們訪問我們臺灣人權委員會在新聞稿裡面去強調等疫情結束以後啊我們再來全面的檢討政府相關的防疫的一個作為以維護人權這一點我來看的話我相信秘書長一定特別有感沒搞"},{"start":6290.433,"end":6304.267,"text":"這個確實就不夠了你跟國際上來做比較的話我們人權委員會是不是你發揮的積極的然後去做一個引導作用更主動的"},{"start":6305.382,"end":6308.045,"text":"相較國際上這些人權組織來看的話我不曉得民主黨你的看法我非常認同莊委員的看法但是我必須說明一下2020年8月我們才正式成立在兵荒馬亂然後又碰到疫情"},{"start":6321.377,"end":6336.664,"text":"那幸虧就是我們的所謂衛福部提的這個防疫措施並沒有太大幅度的影響到我們的人權這個也是這個臺灣的防疫措施被世界各國所肯定的一個原因那當然未來我們可以扮演更積極的角色"},{"start":6337.705,"end":6338.986,"text":"本期一直很在意的就是說"},{"start":6363.226,"end":6368.091,"text":"2020年當然是人權委剛好剛成立那當然是說你說人權這個人手或者說經驗或者說我們整個成立之初剛好又碰到疫情那你很難去跟國際上這樣子運作長久的這些機構來做一個比較可是我就覺得最主要是那個觀念的問題了"},{"start":6384.548,"end":6387.15,"text":"監察院本來就一直強調事後的監督一直強調事後的一個監督他沒有去意識到你整個國家人權委員會其實你可以發揮更積極的一個作用人權就不是事後人權要主動積極完全同意"},{"start":6402.339,"end":6418.277,"text":"就是說變成說我們如果人權委員會一直強調在事後的一個監督的話而不是在第一時間去接軌其他國家的重要的聲明你說在防疫期間過度限縮人民基本權利的積極作為這個當初是真的有點可惜啦真的有點可惜啦所以因為我"},{"start":6419.518,"end":6445.125,"text":"我也非常清楚民主黨已經非常有一番當一個監察院的幕僚長可是這方面其實應該在人權委員會的部分不管是私底下或者說你們在討論之間真的是要形成這一些委員他自己本身要有一個積極面要有一個共識存在否則這真的太可惜了你說監察院說廢掉好不好廢掉很好啊"},{"start":6445.765,"end":6472.113,"text":"可是人權委員會這個部分這個我反而會覺得如果說你積極去做一個精進的話會變成監察院未來存廢之外走出的另外一條康莊大道我覺得這個對人權的一個保障對整個國家來看的話長遠的發展來看的話是非常積極又正面不管監察院存不存在人權委員會應該要存在而且應該是一個獨立機關"},{"start":6473.593,"end":6489.928,"text":"但是現在組織法裡面還不是一個完全獨立機關所以我們還會在我們的範圍內繼續的來進進我們的人權委員也非常非常的積極我倒覺得說這個部分今天特別提出來來做跟民主黨做這樣的一個"},{"start":6490.829,"end":6517.75,"text":"謝謝中委員的建議啦這個我完全同意啦我們會更積極一點這個部分就不涉及到說立法院對於監察院對於你們過去這個一些是不是有涉及到整個國會機關權責之間的一個重疊的一個問題人權的部分本來就是人權委員會你必須要主動跟積極而且去發揮它的功能好不好所以人權委員會的預算也拜託中委員多支持很合理啊我就是要跟你說這個轉給你支持謝謝"},{"start":6539.363,"end":6547.151,"text":"好下一位我們請吳委員謝謝有請李俊英秘書長"},{"start":6552.159,"end":6553.519,"text":"國民黨委員提案列案要成立一個針對經濟部部長郭志輝個人的調查委員會理由是說委員質疑他是不是有財產申報不實等等"},{"start":6579.804,"end":6603.135,"text":"但是郭部長非常清楚的說明他過去任職的公司的股權的傳承轉讓一切都攤在陽光下那因為財產申報跟您有關您對於立法院用這樣一個跟他行使法案權預算權毫不相干的調查委員會來針對部會首長個人私人的財務狀況這樣合宜嗎"},{"start":6609.272,"end":6623.774,"text":"跟委員報告兩個回應第一個有關這個郭志輝部長是不是有申報不實的部分根據我們的資料他是8月19號報來本院的目前報來本院並沒有昨天媒體講的那個部分沒有"},{"start":6624.175,"end":6640.473,"text":"郭志輝部長他包括他本人跟他的配偶都有申報而且從月還有還未上市的高益報的主要的股份都是在郭志輝部長手上他也有如實申報那第二個部分就是說如果成立所謂的調查委員會這個可能要考慮憲判9號的內容"},{"start":6646.339,"end":6657.206,"text":"現辦9號其實說得非常清楚如果立法院沒有證明說跟他行使職權有相關的關係的話他沒有辦法來成立調查委員會好 謝謝秘書長的說明跟我的想法也一致立委要進行調查的權利他必然是跟我們的核心權利領域相關的輔佐性的一個權利而不是要查就查包山包海"},{"start":6673.877,"end":6679.74,"text":"所以我也不了解在野黨的委員已經正式的列案了我們可能這週五的院會就會處理到了針對一個部會首長私人財務要去成立調查委員會我都認為畫錯重點搞錯方向如果對於個別的官員"},{"start":6692.785,"end":6701.954,"text":"有財產申報的質疑大可透過監察院去檢舉都可以那也謝謝您剛剛的說明郭部長8月份已經來登載申報他的財產8月19來好謝謝您的說明那我進入我今天就預算論預算我昨天也質詢了卓榮泰院長"},{"start":6715.347,"end":6741.442,"text":"我說台灣的財政融緊no longer但是財政災難coming soon這跟監察院大有關係下一頁三分鐘的財化法審查通過送出委員會6612億的中央財源就這樣要下放給地方中央可用的財源就大幅的縮減剩下4159億下一頁"},{"start":6745.393,"end":6772.151,"text":"我反對未修而修未快而快的才化法主要來自於他分配不正義他事權不同一他財政沒有紀律他配套完全沒有提出對於地制法公債法等等行政區劃法該檢視的法規沒有一併來檢視其實這當中財政沒有紀律就跟監察院的職權行使大有關係下一頁"},{"start":6773.826,"end":6801.074,"text":"所以說財政收支劃分法權限的劃分是支出劃分的基礎而支出的劃分又是收入劃分的前提不能只搶錢而不管事權要不要統一否則呢只有收入不討論支出那這步法就不叫財政收支劃分法它就變成財政收入劃分法了下一頁"},{"start":6802.094,"end":6825.46,"text":"跟監察院相關的部分我想就交於您喔您認為我個人認為啦如果這樣子的才化法被通過了事權沒有統一地方獲得了大把的銀子他也沒有去規定要用在哪裡財政紀律大出問題未來您監察院也許審計部會沒錢賺就這點來秘書長您怎麼看"},{"start":6830.286,"end":6838.335,"text":"其實監察院現在審計部 監察院跟審計部都非常忙那就地方的財政事實上根據審計法69條還有決算法21條另外根據我們監察院的監察巡迴監察辦法第二條"},{"start":6846.103,"end":6857.31,"text":"每年的決算都必須由審計部來審在各個縣市都會有所謂的審計室他會針對這個地方的財政到底有沒有妥適的運用來提出問題以112年度來講總共審計部提出了1760項有問題的地方提供給監察院然後我們監察院再從裡面選最嚴重的案子來"},{"start":6874.74,"end":6892.795,"text":"與以調查所以這個部分未來會不會有這樣的情形我過去以前也擔任過這個嘉義市的副市長所以我對這個非常清楚過去的縣市常常有這種挪用的情況比如說公益彩券就是普通的常常常見的情形把公益彩券本來要補助給弱勢團體的全部拿去辦活動用這個就是過去發生的那今年112年度剛送來的這個部分包括這個財政這個運用不當"},{"start":6904.444,"end":6928.431,"text":"或者是說像有些東西有些管社變成一個文職管都是過去常常發生的情形所以如果所謂的錢大量的下放那事權沒有跟著走的話那未來到底責任要追誰的這個是非常大的問題那所以其實財政收支劃分法還有一個很重要我想委員很清楚他還到包括"},{"start":6929.471,"end":6934.337,"text":"到底多少人在分配包括現在其實財政收支方法還有鄉鎮的問題鄉鎮問題要不要討論這個都是問題所以就我們審計部的觀點來看未來只會更忙"},{"start":6943.248,"end":6947.292,"text":"所以啊您剛剛講112年度已經有1760案被審計部門來提出他的財政不經濟財政不紀律我想才化法如果這樣6612億沒有搞清楚權責怎麼劃分的話你未來可能是十倍百倍的業務量"},{"start":6967.329,"end":6996.306,"text":"我再跟委員做一個例子說明比如說我們在防疫期間那我們對醫療院所有一些補貼那過去發生一個事就是補貼由衛福部已經撥到縣市的結果縣市就放著沒有給醫療院所那後來去查說原來放在縣市那裡那這個情形就是一個重大的缺失這都是比比皆是慶祝難輸所以我也整理出財政部也觀察到這樣子的一個傾向跟過去發生的案例"},{"start":6997.006,"end":7007.452,"text":"如果大量的從中央來釋出財源但是沒有把事權一併的考量清楚又或者是地方政府沒有辦法來提出具體的他錢要怎麼花的具體計劃的話勢必造成地方財政紀律的惡化包括"},{"start":7016.517,"end":7016.878,"text":"所以呢下一頁"},{"start":7034.073,"end":7040.878,"text":"就如同您剛講的我也挑出了一些案例在文字館的部分你看華聯縣政府被你們提案糾正了華聯縣蓋了一個環保科技園區結果呢成為文字館金門縣政府113年也被你們糾正了"},{"start":7050.686,"end":7069.143,"text":"他要把一個退役的太武發電廠轉化在利用建置電力博物館這是好事喔可是呢蓋了沒有好的評估跟配套也是蚊子館這是蚊子館的部分下一頁在加碼非法定社會補助的部分社福支出來"},{"start":7070.804,"end":7079.689,"text":"衛福部各地方政府這是你們非常大的量也就是老人福利老人津貼加碼再加碼甚至還發生主計處今年扣了7個縣市的補助款就因為他們胡亂的來濫用資源來進行社福的發放因為縣市首長都想當散財童子啊"},{"start":7092.837,"end":7110.716,"text":"右邊的案例雲林縣政府加一縣政府也都被你們糾正了同樣是非法定超過法定標準的社福支出好下一個不經濟支出及不經濟的建設更多被你們糾正的苗栗台中市政府都有"},{"start":7111.497,"end":7138.195,"text":"所以回應您剛剛所說的確實如果我們對於地方政府的財政紀律沒有一套更嚴謹的督導的制度就現行的制度您就抓不了了未來大放送這個乾坤大挪移從中央挖的錢就這樣下放了地方下一頁所以我說其實以為不可啦"},{"start":7139.266,"end":7153.936,"text":"做政治但是要了解財政不要只當政治的精算師而不是財政的精算師切莫讓財政收支劃分法淪為財政收入劃分法"},{"start":7154.716,"end":7161.858,"text":"我在這裡也要期待你們持續就你們的審計權要強力的發揮那今年審預算我們也更可以看到監察院的存在非常重要否則這麼多大量的中央資源釋放到地方去未來又沒有審計的力道又沒有監察權的行使那麼"},{"start":7178.982,"end":7186.645,"text":"臺灣的國家預算的制度會崩壞我們的財政紀律也會大大的受到傷害我們繼續努力謝謝秘書長謝謝主席好謝謝吳委員好那下一位我們請省發會委員進行發言"},{"start":7207.877,"end":7209.878,"text":"主席我們有請李秘書長麻煩秘書長省委員好秘書長早今天我們機會很難得我們就針對我們的中央政府有關監察院的總預算我們來進行詢答"},{"start":7230.317,"end":7247.383,"text":"所以我大概就針對今天我個人在預算書所看到的幾個可能需要說明的地方我就先請秘書長來說明希望說在未來預算審查的時候能夠比較順利首先我注意到你們的稅務預算這個稅務預算的部分"},{"start":7251.499,"end":7266.358,"text":"我看你們的統計到10月為止你們的執行率是差不多只有到八成是不是能請秘書長說明一下目前大概還為什麼只有到八成大概還沒上位執行的項目是哪一些"},{"start":7267.353,"end":7268.794,"text":"你說兩個部分,第一個部分是什麼?"},{"start":7288.644,"end":7312.218,"text":"就是你們會透過兩個方向來努力就對了一個是你們自己會透過行政執行處這個部分我有特別注意到這個執行率的問題但是再來就是我們編列有關明年稅入來源的部分這部分我看結構上面做了這個數字上面的一些調整幅度不可謂不大就是你們在這個罰金罰還的部分這個"},{"start":7317.54,"end":7337.745,"text":"今年這個明年度的預算成長600萬這個是怎麼樣估算的我跟委員報告明年度114年我們會審查113年的總統跟立委選舉所以我們總統跟立委選舉我們預期他的罰金可以多收到很多罰款對不對過去的經驗是這樣就是現在兩年一次選舉"},{"start":7344.606,"end":7364.554,"text":"就是選舉的隔年我們會查查了以後就會有很多的這個狀況違反政治先進法的相關規定所以你們按照過去的經驗所以你們今年在這個罰金罰完的部分對114年因為查總統跟立委的選舉過後那這個看起來我們的這個裁罰預估會比較高一點所以因為你們從這個從2050萬一下成長到2650萬成長了600萬的"},{"start":7373.397,"end":7393.131,"text":"的這個幅度這個我知道了解你們是怎麼樣的怎麼樣的來估算這個機制但是另外一方面你們在這個沒入跟沒收財務的部分的這個沒入金你們就又你們明年度預算就比今年預算又減少減少了400萬為什麼是怎麼樣怎麼樣估算"},{"start":7398.16,"end":7416.678,"text":"政治現金腳褲 這個我們今年有處理 那明年就會比較少 所以這個我們是 就是搭配嘛 選舉的時候 那查的那一年就會高 收入 那這個陣線就會比較低 所以我們一年是做這個"},{"start":7418.019,"end":7422.261,"text":"因為選舉的人多啦基於過去的經驗有關這個選舉及政治先進申報的部分的過去的經驗來做這樣的調整"},{"start":7446.465,"end":7454.516,"text":"那這個另外齁這個現行的有關沒入跟沒收財產現行有沒有包括虛擬貨幣現行沒有沒有齁"},{"start":7460.551,"end":7482.586,"text":"我也跟省委員報告一下有關虛擬貨幣的部分因為政治獻金法的主管單位不是我們法律的主管機關不是我們我們建議過很多次但現在還沒有修完我們建議說虛擬貨幣不能列為財產申報也不能列為政治獻金這個部分我想內政部也同意"},{"start":7483.126,"end":7505.914,"text":"不能列為財產申報不能列為政治獻金不能用虛擬貨幣進行政治獻金這部分其實不只是政治獻金法我們公職人員財產申報法我們利益衝突迴避法這些部分現在虛擬貨幣通通沒有納入這個我們都有具體的建議但是事實上我們洗錢防治法已經把虛擬貨幣納入了"},{"start":7508.15,"end":7535.371,"text":"現在最困擾的我們的理解是虛擬貨幣的價值到底多少沒有辦法定那這個虛擬貨幣的主管機關是金管會那行政院現在正透過各個部會在瞭解統整對這個虛擬貨幣未來怎麼管那從監察院立場我們是希望不管在財產申報或在政治獻金裡面都不能納入虛擬貨幣對但是現在現行的法令我沒有去修法事實上"},{"start":7535.971,"end":7549.142,"text":"就可以用虛擬貨幣進行政治獻金了而且他可能以他他這個這個這個申報的他捐獻的當日的行情可能都超過超過這個政治獻金的上限了"},{"start":7550.299,"end":7550.559,"text":"我希望說我們監察院這邊能夠積極"},{"start":7577.305,"end":7598.218,"text":"這次憲刑法的主管機關是內政部我們等於說積極跟這些相關包括公職人員財產申報法包括利益衝突迴避法包括政治憲刑法我們分別跟內政部跟法務部有建議過那他們原則上也都同意都同意但是我們還是沒有看到對他們修法要經過比較長的過程這個部分我希望監察院這邊能夠積極來推動那這個"},{"start":7602.153,"end":7620.055,"text":"接下來一點時間就跟秘書長討論有關於我們監察院行使職權在行使調查彈劾糾舉糾正案的過程中律師在場權的問題律師在場權這個我們監察院從來沒有禁止律師在場權我知道沒有禁止但是也沒有規範"},{"start":7622.275,"end":7636.489,"text":"我們在調查注意事項裡面有提到但是沒有把它法制化目前我們這個針對這個這個監察院針對這個受彈劾跟糾舉的人在這個在這個調查的過程裡面保障措施有哪一些"},{"start":7640.145,"end":7664.519,"text":"我們這樣問好了我們這個監察委員在約詢實務上面我們是不是曾經有讓律師在場的情況有過去有過去有但是這個並沒有主動提示或者是全部要求一律讓他有律師在場權沒有主動提示啦但是他如果帶律師來我們也不會禁止唯一有可能有例外就是那個機密事項"},{"start":7665.664,"end":7692.805,"text":"緊密事項那另外就是剛剛這個省委員所關心的正當法律程序的部分我們包括迴避啦包括這個這個其他的相關的部分這個部分目前沒有授權的依據也沒有相關的規範我們目前在監察法的第5章還有監察法施行細則第5章都有相關的規範那唯一沒有的是我們的所謂的調查報告注意事項裡面還沒有變成一個法的位階那未來要不要變成法的位階把它明確規範這個我們還要再討論"},{"start":7695.267,"end":7715.853,"text":"對,這個部分我是希望說能夠因為這個有權力就有救濟當然這部分在這個監察院行使職權的時候我希望能夠這個我們目前都沒有禁止對,我知道沒有禁止我是認為這個要保障要保障這個律師在場權這個部分我就用法制上面做一些檢討最後"},{"start":7719.331,"end":7742.884,"text":"剛才在前面的答詢裡面也有委員提到有關於目前生成式AI參考指引的運用方式它會使得我們人權就這個數位人權的部分會變成非常重要的一個部分但是我在你們的預算當中卻沒有看到"},{"start":7743.953,"end":7758.819,"text":"沒有看到相關的反映反映出來說你們有關於這個數位人權的部分的預算的增加或者是這個工作上面的重視剛剛我在答詢的時候已經報告過了112年113年我們有一個委託案另外我們辦了一個國際論壇都是數位AI未來深圳市的"},{"start":7768.062,"end":7776.47,"text":"深圳市的AI對人權會產生什麼潛在性的影響我們對這個部分有很詳細的討論你們的立法計畫上面有提到說你們數位人權會優先的人權議題對你們這個人權委員會的這個中層策略計畫也有兩年計畫這個在2022年的時候我們把它定為我們的中層計畫"},{"start":7789.782,"end":7801.31,"text":"但是這個忠誠計劃看了結果你們只辦過一次國際演習營是針對數位人群沒有我們還有很多的工作會議還有跟各個社團來討論這個問題這是說國際演習營只辦一次但是除了國際演習營以外你們還有進行很多"},{"start":7807.314,"end":7829.639,"text":"對我剛報告在預算呈現了有國際論壇國際研討會另外還有一個是委託案那其他就是在我們的一般的議事事項裡面來討論那你們明年有預計要辦理這個全球數位人權大會是不是有這個事情明年有明年還是有你們籌辦的情況怎麼樣甚至在APPLE年會我們可能也會把這個當作一個議題"},{"start":7831.4,"end":7844.97,"text":"議題這個部分我是我是這個對於數位人權的部分我是非常重視的最後就是我上次上次我們質詢的時候我我上次我在這邊跟你溝通的時候有提到我認為這個有關這個政府機關"},{"start":7850.134,"end":7860.225,"text":"的資安集合我認為監察院應該要負起責任因為監察院是一個本於監察院的獨立性那時候李秘書長也說你們會回去研究"},{"start":7861.431,"end":7878.824,"text":"那研究是不是有研究的資通安全法現在指定的機關是數位部的資通安全署那就我們來講我們在人力上恐怕比較不足我們現在現有的資安的人員才七位但是我認為我認為說因為監察權本於監察權"},{"start":7883.107,"end":7884.068,"text":"我們下一位請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":7914.471,"end":7916.974,"text":"主席有請秘書長麻煩秘書長羅委員好秘書長好我最近好好在看監察院的預算我忽然發現您過去主張廢除監察院是不對的你知道為什麼嗎"},{"start":7935.251,"end":7952.358,"text":"因為監察院是最高貴的機關第一名的機關很厲害這種監察院廢掉太可惜了我們辦公室整理了114年度中央各機關院級到部級36個單位你知道哪個機關平均單向出國計劃是最貴的"},{"start":7953.493,"end":7953.813,"text":"請問秘書長114年監察院出國計畫幾個?"},{"start":7976.472,"end":7994.147,"text":"總共我們編列了一千六百多萬吧一千零九十六萬啦一千零九十六萬對然後呢五個所謂的那個出訪計劃嘛對不對五種不同類型五個啦平均每個兩百二十萬元啦對不對"},{"start":7996.052,"end":8018.482,"text":"那我要跟你講我們辦公室整理的這36個單位恭喜你啊貴院的出國平均高貴度是114年度中央各機關的第一名那你知道全國監察院是所有機關裡面除了是單向出國計劃最貴的機關你知道外交部多少平均多少外交部你知不知道你的統計數字是200"},{"start":8020.1,"end":8045.275,"text":"外交部是200然後呢 行政院是多少 你們是行政院幾倍 行政院平均多少我的數字33.4萬啦 你看我對你們多好 數字都給你們看了然後呢 是6.5倍總出國經費 你們也在36個單位裡面高居第五 是五院之首 所以我要跟木曉雅沒關係啦 我是要肯定你啦 不要緊張嘛"},{"start":8046.435,"end":8073.768,"text":"我要跟秘書長說這麼高貴的監察院你怎麼可以廢掉他我要跟羅委員報告這個第一個人數不同第二個計畫也不同我告訴你藉口理由千千萬所以外交部的基本上比起你們來講人數也不重要計畫也不重要平均就比你們低不重要行政院也不重要我跟你講不用擔心你們這麼高昂的出國計畫我沒有怪你啊"},{"start":8074.668,"end":8078.471,"text":"我接下來看看你們出國計畫在幹什麼才是重點嘛來來來這麼高貴的監察院如果說今天依照秘書長你的意見把它廢掉的話你們以後要怎麼開心出國啊我很擔心欸我想再問問你來來沒關係沒關係這叫水平比較嘛"},{"start":8094.801,"end":8102.564,"text":"對不對水平比較你一堆藉口嘛又是計劃人數出國的人數計劃的項目來來來沒關係我講完了嘛不要緊張嘛我講完水平我講垂直嘛好不好我講垂直嘛來啦來啦我跟你講垂直嘛好啦我告訴你對你來說監察院存在就沒有意義你現在講數字沒有意義你都講監察院就廢掉了來來來沒關係"},{"start":8122.851,"end":8130.598,"text":"水平你藉口多來我們來看垂直可以看垂直吧來請問你110年到114年監察院出國預算成長多少"},{"start":8135.87,"end":8150.903,"text":"1.54倍啦如果數字不對你們再告訴我啦好不好我有沒有看到看過數字啊來監委出國預算征服是多少那時候還沒有人權會現在有人權會啊哎隨便人權會我告訴你人權會以前歷史在總統府的人權會以前在總統府做任務編組在總統府做比你們績效好得多啦你們在總統你們那個人權會根本就城局的護花園我還打算今天開個修法檢討勒"},{"start":8161.292,"end":8165.036,"text":"今天沒給你檢討人權會今天光講你的出國預算講到人權會人權會講得我一肚子火大你們人權會就是陳菊死刑廢除委員會啦就陳菊人權後院委員會啦來再一下沒關係繼續繼續繼續繼續繼續出國監委出國預算增幅是多少82%"},{"start":8186.109,"end":8191.324,"text":"我寫的數字不對告訴我來政府院長出國預算征服多少"},{"start":8193.032,"end":8214.815,"text":"百分之一百二十五啦錯還在錯勒還在錯勒我告訴你錯在哪裡不用啦我告訴你你要講什麼國家人權委員會搬出來啊111年5月我們才有副院長所以112年以後才開始變副院長我告訴你就算把副院長加進來你們增加一倍多副院長變成三十萬啊"},{"start":8216.056,"end":8230.73,"text":"你們的計劃增加一倍多你數學好不好啊125%欸兩倍的預算欸兩倍多的預算你跟我講沒有增加數字不是這樣算的沒有增加我剛剛跟你講沒關係來來來五月副院長我告訴你來來來你算你真的是你蠻會插話的我就很明白的回答您的問題來我告訴你再找藉口吧繼續找藉口你藉口多我知道"},{"start":8243.778,"end":8267.212,"text":"貴院不但是中央機關出國最高貴領導監察院也是監察院有史以來最高貴你們的監察院政府院長愛出國也是最高貴然後我跟你講我對你們監察院這出國的能力我的景仰滔滔江水連綿不絕那你找藉口的能力我也是很佩服沒關係真正跟監察院本務的赴外專案調查預算你知道增加還減少"},{"start":8270.088,"end":8275.716,"text":"減少了連這個都不知道前面你都在講的那麼開開心心藉口一大堆減少21%啦對嘛你現在對了齁"},{"start":8280.919,"end":8302.839,"text":"那我跟你講裡面還包括一個什麼包括一個區域的沒有黑熊只有中熊日本北海道去考察黑熊還有長野縣長野縣有黑熊我跟你講我在問你A你答B幹嘛A啊我知道大法官坐你後盾問A答B沒事沒關係回來我問你今天你去只有黑熊沒有中熊的日本北海道你預算是怎麼寫的"},{"start":8304.195,"end":8313.427,"text":"我告訴你這個計劃包括一款北海道還有包括長野線一個看中熊一個看黑熊你上面寫的是哪裡你寫的是北海道啊"},{"start":8318.154,"end":8335.144,"text":"我們兩個都寫了啊你在預算的預算說明寫北海道來來來我告訴你啊監察院啊我告訴你監察院你不但是出國第一名你是耍廢第一名啊我直接跟你說了你的出國總體預算來沒關係我告訴你你的總體出國預算漲到外太空你的專案調查反而在減少我這一點說走沒錯吧我沒說錯吧"},{"start":8345.683,"end":8348.106,"text":"你告訴我說你要到長野縣去北海道的中雄那你要去看黑熊長野縣你要去看黑熊北海道明明就中雄藉口那麼多你還沒關係"},{"start":8361.685,"end":8362.066,"text":"拜臺道本來就看中熊嘛很清楚"},{"start":8380.783,"end":8381.824,"text":"103年8月到現在我們關於動物原住民的權益保障議題 監察院提出報告32案"},{"start":8400.794,"end":8403.636,"text":"在20...在2612案調查報告占1.2%不能用全部的調查報告來...好啦好啦全部調查報告也不重要你的金費多也不重要什麼都不重要你李俊逸領監察院秘書長的薪水最重要我懂啦"},{"start":8419.767,"end":8438.715,"text":"非監察院領監察秘書的薪水你最開心啦來來來我告訴你我跟你講你在那邊講非監察院你就讓你沒意義你的存在本身就沒意義還沒意義勒監察院的薪水領的最有意義來來來共識今天監察院領薪水有沒有意義"},{"start":8440.858,"end":8450.587,"text":"答不出來啦有意義啦我幫你背書啦金水那麼香怎麼會沒意義監察院廢掉那監察院主管的薪水還是要領啊怎麼可以不領啊來好你今天調查報告只佔百分之1.2你說啊我的百分之1.2做得非常的棒非常的高貴非常的豪華可以抵58497案"},{"start":8464.099,"end":8468.283,"text":"羅偉我説明的很清楚來來來沒關係我告訴你我的結論很簡單平常你們在調查報告對原住民的議題對動物保護議題你就是沒有很高度的關心阿出國很關心阿來來來沒關係再來當然不準嘛"},{"start":8490.263,"end":8498.47,"text":"監察院他在2008年到現在跨越兩個政府哪三年監察院提出來考察意見項數最低你又答不出來啊來沒關係我告訴你2019年八項最低再來就是2023年的14項次低再來是2022年的18項第三低這三項都是在哪個政府發生的啊"},{"start":8517.685,"end":8535.836,"text":"從頭到尾同一件事情就是你用不同的基準在比又來了又不同的基準又不同的基準我跟你監察院2008年比到2023年這基準又跟我講不同就你的薪水一樣嘛有什麼不同沒關係啦你要拗隨便你拗啦繼續繼續我告訴你"},{"start":8543.086,"end":8564.596,"text":"你的監察院的預算倍增然後呢你的所謂的考察的這個像素意見大減歷史最低你照這種情況之下你該跟我講你績效多好來沒關係喔我才說你監察院第一名嘛你緊張什麼愛出國高貴第一名沒關係啦你又要講值嘛你講量不重要嘛1.2%戰術不重要嘛"},{"start":8567.617,"end":8569.078,"text":"2022年12月監察院去新加坡考察,考察寫一本報告,報告名字叫什麼?"},{"start":8585.028,"end":8600.998,"text":"政府機關優化數位轉型服務跟硬體設施改造以處理人民陳情實務為例聽起來很厲害但你們報告寫得更棒來來來兩位報告處長上來我們的王處長跟張處長我想請教您你們寫了幾點心得啊九點啦我要告訴你啦你們九點心得寫了什麼"},{"start":8614.841,"end":8631.294,"text":"我們現在監察院歡迎羅委員去參加沒關係喔你們心得寫得太棒你們心得寫得太好我一定要讓全國人民知道你們寫了五點齁我真的嘆為觀止簡直要趴在地上佩服啦第一點記得大家要用Siri啦你們的心得一啦"},{"start":8634.178,"end":8636.88,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":8652.995,"end":8673.251,"text":"第5個藉由考察聯繫過程要體會棄而不捨的決心化不可能為可能才是重要關鍵你們的出國的決心真的棄而不捨預算用最多然後呢專案考察的項目是最少然後呢出國報告給我寫了這麼偉大的出國報告我這邊直接跟你講我今天羅志強我就立個提案你監察的出國預算這麼搞爛的話全三謝謝"},{"start":8687.52,"end":8713.312,"text":"好謝謝羅委員那下一位我們請林思銘委員林思銘委員林思銘與銘委員好那接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員進行詢答主席在黨委員先進列席的政府機關所長官員會長共同夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們李秘書長麻煩秘書長"},{"start":8717.234,"end":8719.335,"text":"政治人物辦演唱會的收入算不算政治現金?"},{"start":8738.962,"end":8763.473,"text":"算任何政治募款都是政治現金他說他是有人辦了演唱會他去其中現唱那這個活動的收入政治現金把規定的很清楚不管你的形式為何演講會募款常會這個義賣或者是演唱會只要你有募款是為了選舉用的都屬於政治現金的範疇所以"},{"start":8764.293,"end":8784.302,"text":"這跟內政部的函是你剛剛的說法有沒有出入啊個人或團體從事活動的性質如任屬競選活動或政治相關活動且相關資金系屬無償或提供不相當對價之給付者受綁法之規範所以你剛剛講的這個事情是要由內政部來認定還是監察院可以認定"},{"start":8784.682,"end":8805.413,"text":"我們認定的是政治獻金法政治獻金法裡面規定的非常清楚就是不管任何活動你是為了政治這個政治募款的就屬於政治獻金的但他如果說沒有我沒有說募款呢有啊他對外宣稱就是要募款好那當然了這個圖片可能你不曉得他賣了多少錢往下看我們比較一下棒球賽12強大概700元起跳"},{"start":8808.683,"end":8810.764,"text":"那你覺得剛剛依照內政部的解釋"},{"start":8830.95,"end":8831.651,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8851.138,"end":8870.5,"text":"報告委員一方面這個是屬於我們也認為是不相當的對價然後再來那個柯市長當時自己也有對外這樣子做說明所以你們有雙重的認定第一個先依他的主張他說這是一個政治競選活動有募款的性質第二個顯然的他的收費票價"},{"start":8871.721,"end":8882.363,"text":"跟一般的演唱會比起來不相當所以你們也參考了內政部的一個含釋所以認定他是一個政治獻金所以你們認不認爲目前他這個獻金有短報正在談當中但是他已經承認了民眾黨召開記者會承認短漏報並且道歉另外我們看到了北檢也生壓了辦理這個活動的公關公司有4000萬"},{"start":8898.752,"end":8924.657,"text":"那秘書長我們當然不好意思請一下假設問題啦那麼這種情況之下你們的調查會等到北檢還是你們會持續的往下調查就政治獻金部分繼續調查政治獻金的部分我們持續在調查當中那我們也跟北檢密切的合作北檢很多資料是從我們這邊提供的所以未來你們因為政治獻金的認定的裁罰是屬於行政處分嗎那你們會先做嗎如果有需要處分的話如果需要處分我們就會處分"},{"start":8925.385,"end":8945.546,"text":"那你們不會去等候北檢那邊司法偵辦的情況那跟監察權的行使不太一樣政治獻金我們是執行機關只要違反政治獻金法那我們就會做處分所以很明顯的政治獻金在監察院我們的監察法或者監察院執權刑事法假設未來"},{"start":8946.96,"end":8975.829,"text":"那你們跟國會的調查權的行使遇到了司法在偵辦或遇到了監察院在調查就必須停止是有所不同的是這樣嗎 不一樣 不一樣 不一樣 不一樣 調查部分是根據監察法施行細則27條遇到刑事的案件偵查中我們就會停止但是政治獻金法我們查我們的只要政治獻金法違反但是如果裡面我們認為說可能有懷疑說可能有其他的形式的話我們會送檢查單位 好"},{"start":8976.849,"end":8993.275,"text":"那如果說今天因為本院吶立法院為了要審監察院的預算那麼審預算的時候我們就可以基於職權制行使根據新的立職法我們就成立了院會成立了調查委員會如果要來調查這筆政治現金跟你們有沒有"},{"start":8994.147,"end":9020.279,"text":"去你們的政治獻金的職權的預算的運用有沒有相關您覺得立法院有沒有可能成立一個調查委員會來調查為了省監察院的預算來查你們對這個政治獻金的處理有沒有恰當依據憲判第9號的判決裡面說的很清楚立法院要成立任何調查委員會必須先說明跟他行使職權相關"},{"start":9022.622,"end":9026.486,"text":"現在民眾黨認為說監察院的預算要全砍他說要刪掉你們的監察院預算除了基本人事費和財產申報之外全砍"},{"start":9047.421,"end":9053.091,"text":"那如果這兩個預算留著寫到全款以後剛剛的政治監禁還能查嗎?"},{"start":9055.171,"end":9057.453,"text":"所以目前民眾黨主張說除了財產申報費用他留下來之外就是要你們繼續調查本案囉"},{"start":9086.34,"end":9105.807,"text":"我不知道民眾黨的用意是什麼那我們對任何政黨任何政治人物的評論我們也不做任何的評論那我們往下看那最近的又發生了齁這個國民黨中國國民黨的招總招復婚成委員的所要對一個郭志輝要進行調查郭部長他調查什麼調查他的財產申報"},{"start":9109.38,"end":9125.331,"text":"中國委員我剛才說明我剛才在答詢過程中說明很清楚是8月19號郭部長來我們監察院申報財產是那其中的股份還是99.9%在他手上沒有移轉是好那我們現在看那你剛才已經講了最後這一頁下一頁"},{"start":9126.132,"end":9139.476,"text":"那麼立法院可不可以成立調查委員會來調查財產你說這個財產申報這是屬於監察法施行期當中屬於監察院的職責財產申報嘛沒錯嘛財產申報嘛那就這個部分您認為如果成立了這個調查委員會會不會影響到你們屬於財產申報部分的行使當然啊當然所以你認為這要根據憲判的意旨"},{"start":9155.216,"end":9180.55,"text":"立法院要先停下來等你們調查完不是不是不是要等我們調查完而是憲判9號的意旨是說立法院如果沒有辦法證明這跟他行使職權有關的話他根本不能成立這樣的調查委員會好那好那我們這題差不多我們往下看請問監察院的預算包括人權委員會好7月15號你們監察法的修正草案當中有增進的人權專章是不是"},{"start":9181.645,"end":9207.211,"text":"對我們送來的我們希望在人權專章裡面就把它有關職權的行使能夠那在人權專章還沒通過之前這個人權委員的運作也受監察院相關法令職權審査規定他現在是我們的一級單位一級單位那他的預算也編在你們當中是好那現在一個問題出現了往下看那監察委員跟人權委員的職務分工怎麼分工我們是不是知道現在人權委員的委員是怎麼來產生的"},{"start":9208.871,"end":9224.3,"text":"人權委員會現在有十位那八位是固定委員包含院長就是他是主任委員那另外有兩位他是這個每年輪派由其他的監察委員去擔任人權委員所以這十位通通都是監察委員對"},{"start":9225.649,"end":9252.174,"text":"只是兩位是輪的另外八位韓政委員長是固定的那現在人權委員的職權是包含調查侵害人權的事件擬定人權政策建議跟推動人權教育他基本上不像是監察院的事後權嗎他基本上概念上不太一樣所以但是呢在監察委員當人權委員去對公司部門進行的時候他如果發現公部門有涉及不法他可不可以發動他的監察權"},{"start":9258.762,"end":9271.988,"text":"最近吵得非常洋洋的勞動部已有主管霸凌的事情目前監察院有委員要調查了嗎目前有韓巡我們有六位委員登記韓巡這六位委員是不是都是人權委員"},{"start":9274.943,"end":9301.478,"text":"不完全是不完全是所以有包括人權委員對有包括人權委員那麼既然我們知道這個有事後權跟人權是不一樣的概念往下看那請問一下人權委員會當中監察委員的角色我們很清楚人權委員會雖然設置在監察院底下但是他的目的存在是調查現存的不管公私立部門他要完善現行的法規他做的是事前的預防對不對"},{"start":9303.119,"end":9316.445,"text":"但是監委在當中他也同時會行使調查是屬於事後的懲處那如果說監察委員在人權委員會的一個調查當中他發現在公佈的部分設有失職那怎麼處理"},{"start":9317.847,"end":9343.703,"text":"我們通常會轉到監察院來那針對公部門部分或是公務人員的部分再調查那請問一下目前勞動部這個案子有沒有在我們之前人權委員會進行公私立機關的人權調查當中目前還在含蓄的階段所以還沒有那是監察權的部分我是說人權委員會有沒有就勞動人權的部分廣義的勞動人權包含了公務機關的公務員對不對"},{"start":9345.731,"end":9374.188,"text":"那你認為如果用這個角色來看用這個事件來看目前勞動部所呈現的問題是不是也是廣義的人權委員應該關心的普遍臺灣的勞動人權的一部分是我跟中委員報告這是屬於兩公約裡面的相關的議題特別是針對霸凌的部分我們過去有很多的關心包括人權委員會跟監察院你剛剛說到有很多人權關心那請問過去人權委員會有對臺灣的公司力部門的職場的霸凌有做過調查嗎"},{"start":9377.352,"end":9377.392,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":9401.701,"end":9426.057,"text":"他的執掌跟監察委員的執掌是分開的對他的運作也是分開的預算也是分開的目的不同職權不同對那預算有沒有不同預算是在一起的預算是在一起這就是現在人權委員會還沒有辦法變成真正的獨立機關他現在只是準獨立機關我知道我的意思說在科目上我們希望能夠在未來監察院的預算當中很清楚的看到"},{"start":9426.587,"end":9434.625,"text":"如果要對於整個臺灣包括公務門在內的勞動人權做廣泛性符合人權公約的普查他所需要的經費跟"},{"start":9436.383,"end":9456.611,"text":"接到檢舉監察委員啟動調查他所運用的部門經委是不是不應該一樣對應該不一樣那目前扮演的角色現在我們人權委員人也不夠啦是那沒有辦法做那麼多事是所以我是說希望未來監察院在預算的一個編列上就算他不是獨立機關你們也應該在預算書的呈顯上"},{"start":9459.792,"end":9485.585,"text":"將一個針對全國不分公司力部門包括勞動人權在內兩公院的落實的一個普查跟調查人權委員的預算的行使以及監察委員基於檢舉陳情他所行使的一個立法院監察委員事後權的監督的這個職權行使這樣的預算的一個行使的範疇編列是不是能夠分開的表達我們現在就分開啊有沒有表達包括出國會議都是先分開因為剛剛很多委員關心的"},{"start":9487.586,"end":9511.82,"text":"我都不太清楚他是關心的是監委出國的考察會議還是以人權委員會參加就是國際會議的會議現在的負責人權委員會也有國際會議啊就是我們人權就是剛剛所講的所謂的出國費用包括監察院包括人權委員會通通加在一起但是我們的項目是分開便利項目是分開的好那我們希望未來"},{"start":9512.96,"end":9538.426,"text":"縱使還沒有修我們的監察院職權行使法或者說是我們的預算在人權委員沒有成獨立機關之前這個部分希望你們在職權行使跟預算的運用上都能夠分別的呈現當然委員監察委員他同時為人權會委員跟監察委員他在行使這職權的時候他有雙重身份有雙重效果我們希望就該案現在已經有委員申請自動調查了"},{"start":9539.406,"end":9539.426,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":9561.562,"end":9587.72,"text":"翁曉麟委員翁曉麟委員翁曉麟委員謝龍介委員謝龍介委員謝龍介委員傅坤祺委員傅坤祺委員傅坤祺委員鄭振前委員鄭振前委員鄭振前委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員洪孟凱委員洪孟凱委員洪孟凱委員"},{"start":9589.281,"end":9592.163,"text":"委員委員委員委員委員委員委員委員委員委員委員委員委員委員委員委員都沒了"},{"start":9621.522,"end":9625.325,"text":"質詢10提供相關資料或以書面答覆者,請相關機關請訴送交個別委員及本會"},{"start":9640.465,"end":9656.294,"text":"委員翁曉林、謝龍介、林思明、傅坤祺所提書面質詢均列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面回覆本次會議進行到此討論事項關於監察院主管"},{"start":9657.094,"end":9677.757,"text":"收支部分報告及詢答完畢做如下決議令定期繼續審查那審查會委員針對本日議程所列討論事項之一預算提出請於11月25日星期一中午12點之前提出預時不予受理現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}