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在場的委員先進 列席的政府機關長 官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體 記者 女士先生有請我們行政院主計總處的陳副主計長監察院的王代理秘書長 以及紀律委員會的正執行秘書王代理秘書長 還有我們的紀律委員會正執行秘書"},{"start":26.411,"end":55.785,"text":"好 副主席長好 代理部長好 還有鄭時勤秘書好來鄭時勤秘書請教一下剛剛的前面黃委員說如果委員身兼紀律委員就應該對自己的涉及紀律事件迴避我想這是一個基本的立衝的迴避原則那如果某黨的前任黨主席因為涉貪遭檢調調查司法審判那繼任的黨主席可不可以在立法院去質詢司法院或法務部長"},{"start":59.498,"end":77.284,"text":"這個部分我不清楚因為前委員的問題不知道如何回答請你請回沒關係好 今天我要正式談的題目民進黨廢考間歡迎藍白根治廢紙錢應首發首先維持運作來 請教代理秘書長台灣第三次主辦APOR的年會經費哪裡來"},{"start":79.359,"end":99.304,"text":"跟委員說明我們有關於April年會是放放在那個監察院114年的政法中央政府總預算案裡面那被誰刪除了立法院多數刪除了是好那副主席長我們剛剛也聽你解釋過了動用第二預配件的法源依據根據我們預算法下一頁"},{"start":100.452,"end":123.929,"text":"第22條第二項立法院審議刪除或刪減之預算項目及金額不得同時預備金對不對對你剛剛有講了嘛但是後段但法定經費或經立法院同意者不再實現那請問今天我們是來問剛剛那一筆被刪除預算是法定經費或者要那一筆經費被立法院同意的才不再實現"},{"start":125.209,"end":136.978,"text":"對 我們是要針對原先刪減然後現在是不是立法院同意讓我們動之所以立法院同意之後就可以嗎是好 謝謝 請回來 接下來大理秘書長是來 我們看一下下一頁"},{"start":138.774,"end":163.729,"text":"這個看起來大家都有一點年紀在20年前有一個彩券廣告就是一個爸爸帶著小孩常常帶著小孩說喜歡嗎 爸爸買給你因為中了彩券什麼都有現在我們看到民眾黨就像被寵害的小孩要修憲就全靠這個父爸爸動不動就要國民黨支持他一廂情願的提案請問你知不知道修憲提案是國會過半數就有決定嗎"},{"start":165.79,"end":178.001,"text":"並不是這樣,依照憲法申請條文第12條的規定要四分之三、四分之三我們來看一下現在在野黨,尤其是民眾黨的黨主席他說什麼"},{"start":179.809,"end":197.049,"text":"要開始來修改要成立要修改憲法對不對廢除早已失去存在價值淪為酬勇養老與政治打手的監察院以完善國家憲政體制啟動我的憲政改革到徵修條文的第三條第四條第七條我們看到了他需要得到多少人連署要"},{"start":198.884,"end":226.523,"text":"29個 那他現在有32個結果我們看了一下副爸爸給他多少個民眾黨8個 國民黨24個這24個當中有13個不需要面對罷免包括3加1的原住民委員包括部分區的委員以及包括像陳玉珍這種僥倖沒有被提罷免的結果13位不需要面對罷免的勇敢的來參加這個提案但是我們看到"},{"start":228.087,"end":239.273,"text":"這個提案誰跑掉了王宏威這個面對罷免的委員說這不是藍白河案只開放個人連署誰連署了徐宇珍國民黨主發會的主委撤遷"},{"start":241.809,"end":258.82,"text":"欸 主發會的主任撤遷 你不是不溫屈的嗎為什麼撤遷 因為可能擔心有案再生啊現在這個司法檢調單位在查衛照連署假冒冒名連署的 已經查到哪裡了查到國民黨主發會的副主任了欸"},{"start":259.997,"end":278.392,"text":"所以怎麼樣 跑掉了 看下一頁所以我們看到了 剛剛那個就是什麼不怕死的碰到不知死活的還有11個不知死活的 面對罷免的在那邊聯合的提案來我們問一下 廢除監察院 朱立倫要改黨章嗎對不起 在您面前 你有沒有看過國民黨的黨章沒有 國民黨的黨章叫奉行五權憲法"},{"start":284.198,"end":310.136,"text":"先把正確條文 剛剛說的四分三分三決你認為朱立民主席會同意修改國民黨黨章嗎我沒有辦法很難回答 因為你也不是國民黨黨員OK 好 我們看一下但是修憲委員會 民進黨始終監除廢稿間這是在110年第十屆的時候我們成立了修憲委員會而且我們要求刪除第六條 第七條將考證跟採用廢掉這些人包括柯建民 劉世芳跟蔡世應"},{"start":311.305,"end":338.473,"text":"好 我們那個修憲組長是這樣 那你來猜猜看當年這個修憲提案 國民黨修憲委員有沒有參加不曉得 因為第十屆我在 我是修憲委員會的五個召集委員之一結果呢 修憲遇到廢考間修憲委員會 國民黨十四個委員 三次會議通通缺席不敢面對您覺得國民黨真心要廢除考試院檢察院嗎"},{"start":342.557,"end":357.516,"text":"從歷史斑斑可考,你覺得他是真心的嗎?檢察院完全尊重修憲的程序好,檢察院完全尊重立法院的修憲委員會但是立法院自己的修憲委員會,藍委全部落跑,再下來我們看一下"},{"start":358.24,"end":377.25,"text":"其實我想縱使目前你們人在監察院但是我們也可以去思考國家怎麼進步但是民進黨主張廢除監察院有配套人權保障不能少貪官污吏跑不掉首先目前國家人權會是不是在監察院裡面是的在2019年那如果監察院廢掉了你覺得國家人權會要不要繼續維持"},{"start":378.639,"end":405.755,"text":"這是國家重要的一個機構 重要的機構 好再來我們目前監察院負責工作人員採訪申報對不對 是貪官污吏不能跑掉 申報機關是監察院監察院如果廢掉了 申報的機制要不要維持當然當然要維持 好 謝謝所以呢 結論我們看一下國民黨要挺白修憲啦 而且先問問中南海啊為什麼 因為修憲提案通過之後他經過中華民國自由地區人民投票 複決這是公民投票啊結果國台辦說什麼"},{"start":407.336,"end":430.552,"text":"現在國台辦說台灣的人民不要罷免國民黨可是在2022年中共的發言人馬曉光說所謂的修憲公投根本就是為了修憲謀獨而鋪路造勢所以說國民黨要配合王國昌黨主席配合民眾黨去修憲要不要先問問中南海往下看 最後結論"},{"start":432.162,"end":451.893,"text":"那林秘書長 為了維護我國國際聲譽 善盡會員義務 保障世界各國國會的權益你是不是同意也支持我們 盡速同意動之第二預備金是的 謝謝委員好 那也謝謝你們如果有認識國民黨員國民黨要費考試院 要費監察院 又要費監察院先修綱檔章 再來談修憲 謝謝好 接著請省劃會委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":278,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（9時53分）主席、在場委員先進、列席政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴及媒體記者女士先生。有請行政院主計總處陳副主計長、監察院王代理秘書長及紀律委員會鄭執行秘書。"],["主席：請陳副主計長、王代理秘書長及紀律委員會鄭執行秘書。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：副主計長好、代理秘書長好、鄭執行秘書好。鄭執行秘書請教一下，剛剛前面黃委員說，如果委員身兼紀律委員，就應該對自己的涉己紀律事件迴避，我想這也是一個基本的利衝迴避原則，如果某黨的前任黨主席因為涉貪遭檢調調查、司法審判，那麼繼任的黨主席可不可以在立法院去質詢司法院或法務部長？"],["鄭執行秘書旭浩：報告委員，這個部分我不清楚。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不清楚？"],["鄭執行秘書旭浩：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，因為前委員的問題讓人家不知道如何回答，你請回，沒關係。","今天我要正式談的題目是「民進黨廢考監，歡迎藍白跟進，廢止前應守法守憲維持運作」，請教代理秘書長，臺灣第三次主辦APOR年會的經費從哪裡來？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明，有關APOR年會的經費是編在監察院114年中央政府總預算案裡面。"],["鍾委員佳濱：被誰刪除了？立法院多數刪除了？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：副主計長，我們剛剛也聽你解釋過了，動用第二預備金的法源依據，根據預算法第二十二條第二項「立法院審議刪除或刪減之預算項目及金額，不得動支預備金。」對不對？你剛剛有講了嘛。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是後段「但法定經費或經立法院同意者，不在此限。」請問，今天我們是來討論，剛剛那筆被刪除的預算是法定經費，或者那筆經費被立法院同意才能不在此限？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：對，我們是要針對原先刪減，然後現在看立法院是不是同意讓我們動支。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以立法院同意之後就可以嘛。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝，請回。","接下來，代理秘書長，我們看一下下一頁簡報，看起來大家都有一點年紀，在20年前有一個彩券廣告，就是一個爸爸帶著小孩，常常跟他的小孩說：「喜歡嗎？爸爸買給你」，因為中了彩券什麼都有，現在我們看到，民眾黨就像被寵壞的小孩，要修憲就全靠「傅」爸爸，動不動就要國民黨支持它一廂情願的提案。請問修憲提案是國會過半數就可以決定嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：並不是這樣，依照憲法增修條文第十二條的規定……"],["鍾委員佳濱：要多少？"],["王代理秘書長增華：它是要四分之三、四分之三。"],["鍾委員佳濱：四分之三、四分之三，對不對？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一下，現在在野黨，尤其是民眾黨的黨主席，他說什麼？他說要開始來修改憲法，對不對？他說：「廢除早已失去存在價值、淪為酬庸養老與政治打手之監察院，以完善國家憲政體制，啟動我國憲政改革」，他要修增修條文第三條、第四條及第七條，我們看他需要得到多少人連署？要29個，他現在有32個。結果我們看了一下，「傅」爸爸給他多少個？民眾黨8個，國民黨24個，這24個當中，有13個不需要面對罷免，包括3加1的原住民委員，包括不分區的委員，以及包括了像陳玉珍這種僥倖沒有被提罷免的，結果13位不需要面對罷免的，勇敢地來參加這個提案。","但是我們看到了，這個提案誰跑掉了？王鴻薇，這個面對罷免的委員說：「這不是藍白合作，開放個人連署。」誰連署了？許宇甄（國民黨組發會主委），不過他撤簽了，組發會的主委為什麼要撤簽？他不是不分區的嗎？為什麼撤簽？因為可能擔心有案在身，現在司法檢調單位在查偽造連署，假冒、冒名連署的，已經查到哪裡了？查到國民黨組發會的副主委了，所以怎麼樣？他跑掉了。所以我們看到了，剛剛那個就是什麼？不怕死的碰到不知死活的，還有11個不知死活的、面對罷免的在那邊聯合提案。來，我問一下，廢除監察院，朱立倫要改黨章嗎？對不起，代理秘書長，你有沒有看過國民黨的黨章？"],["王代理秘書長增華：報告委員，沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，沒有，國民黨的黨章奉行五權憲法。剛剛說憲法增修條文規定修憲要四分之三決議，你認為朱立倫主席會同意修改國民黨黨章嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：我沒有辦法回答。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很難回答，因為你也不是國民黨黨員。好，我們來看一下，修憲委員會中民進黨始終主張廢考監，在110年第10屆的時候，我們成立了修憲委員會，而且我們要求刪除第六條、第七條，將考試院跟監察院廢掉，提案人包括柯建銘、劉世芳跟蔡適應，我們當時的修憲主張是這樣。你來猜猜看，當年這個修憲提案，修憲委員會國民黨有沒有參加？不曉得？因為第10屆我在，我是修憲委員會的5個召集委員之一，結果修憲遇到廢考監，修憲委員會國民黨14個委員3次會議統統缺席，不敢面對，您覺得國民黨真心要廢除考試院、監察院嗎？歷史斑斑可考，你覺得他們是真心的嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：監察院完全尊重修憲的程序。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，監察院完全尊重立法院的修憲委員會，但是立法院自己的修憲委員會，藍委全部落跑。再來，我們看一下，我想縱使目前你們仍在監察院，但是我們也可以去思考國家怎麼進步。民進黨主張廢除監察院是有配套的，人權保障不能少，貪官污吏跑不掉。首先，目前國家人權委員會是不是設在監察院裡面？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是的，在109年成立。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果監察院廢掉了，你覺得國家人權委員會要不要繼續維持？"],["王代理秘書長增華：這是國家一個重要的機構。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，再來，目前監察院負責公職人員財產申報，對不對？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要讓貪官污吏不能跑掉，申報機關是監察院，監察院如果廢掉了，申報的機制要不要維持？"],["王代理秘書長增華：當然。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然要維持，好，謝謝。我們看一下結論，國民黨要挺白修憲，要不要先問問中南海？為什麼？因為修憲提案通過之後，它要經過中華民國自由地區人民投票複決，這是公民投票。結果國台辦說什麼？現在國台辦說：「臺灣的人民，不要罷免國民黨！」可是在2022年中共的發言人馬曉光說：「所謂的『修憲公投』根本就是為了『修憲謀獨』而鋪路造勢」。所以國民黨要配合黃國昌黨主席，配合民眾黨去修憲，要不要先問問中南海？","最後結論，代理秘書長，為了維護我國國際聲譽，並善盡會員義務，保障世界各國會員的權益，你是不是同意，也支持我們儘速同意動支第二預備金？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是的，謝謝委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，也謝謝你們，如果有認識國民黨黨員，跟他說國民黨要廢考試院、要廢監察院，先修改黨章再來談修憲，謝謝。"],["王代理秘書長增華：謝謝。"],["主席：接著請沈發惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":136,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,36-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","顏寬恒","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","李坤城","陳玉珍","吳思瑤","李彥秀","陳培瑜","王世堅","黃珊珊","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","林倩綺","林思銘","羅明才"],"page_start":75,"meetingDate":["2025-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函為監察院114年度辦理「2025年第37屆澳紐及太平洋地區監察使年會暨人權國際研\n討會」所需經費不敷，請同意動支114年度中央政府總預算第二預備金750萬元支應案","agenda_id":"1146401_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}