{"error":false,"id":["162949"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":162949,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162949","日期":"2025-06-30","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-3-15-28","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第28次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":3,"會次":28,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第28次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-06-30T09:49:43+08:00","結束時間":"2025-06-30T09:58:06+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:23","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0b047677e7ec786eb45f8416fcf95f95ae3a86deb72054c9d613b3b430d254bccdf77eee62e812e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"09:49:43 - 09:58:06","會議時間":"2025-06-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第28次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」。二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」案。三、審查委員賴惠員等21人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」案。【僅詢答及宣讀提案條文；第四案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.207218750000001,"end":7.523468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.02971875,"end":8.687843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.227218750000002,"end":13.750343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.20596875,"end":14.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.167843750000003,"end":23.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.12846875,"end":33.915968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.70096875,"end":32.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.540343750000005,"end":38.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.619718750000004,"end":39.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.09221875,"end":48.782843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.204718750000005,"end":67.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.66596875,"end":68.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.50971875,"end":70.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.37846875000001,"end":80.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.96346875,"end":81.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.07721875,"end":85.11471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.13159375000001,"end":90.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.66659375,"end":90.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.15159375,"end":99.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.63971875,"end":113.09346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.36346875000001,"end":113.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.15659375000001,"end":115.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.81034375,"end":117.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.34159375,"end":123.26909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.55596875,"end":128.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.17534375,"end":139.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.88284375,"end":153.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.48909375,"end":146.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.72034375,"end":152.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.12096875,"end":153.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.36971875,"end":154.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.73659375,"end":162.95909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.75721875000002,"end":159.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.73534375,"end":166.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.14409375000002,"end":167.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.69659375,"end":169.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.18159375000002,"end":178.26471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.70346875,"end":184.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.96409375000002,"end":194.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.00034375,"end":202.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.05409375000002,"end":209.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.15846875000003,"end":215.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.16596875000002,"end":217.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.38096875000002,"end":220.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.32971875,"end":233.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.12096875,"end":250.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.54034375,"end":251.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.85659375000003,"end":254.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.47221875000002,"end":259.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.29409375,"end":260.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.31096875000003,"end":261.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.25596875,"end":261.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.42471875,"end":261.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.54284375000003,"end":264.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.76159375000003,"end":266.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.87534375,"end":276.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.02221875000004,"end":272.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.59471875,"end":281.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.12971875,"end":301.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.17596875000004,"end":290.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.82346875,"end":303.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.70909375,"end":314.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.49221875,"end":315.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.48784375,"end":325.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.00659375000004,"end":319.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.63409375000003,"end":327.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.35096875000005,"end":330.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.24909375000004,"end":340.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.51346875,"end":343.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.65221875000003,"end":345.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.32284375,"end":349.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start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我想我們也會很快的就跟上能做的我們就先做啦 東北這個不容易啦 但是就是當然我們還是要先做不是啦 不是啦 主委 我知道 這些我都知道啦我是說他要登記的時候 可能一下子湧了好幾萬人要來登記那我們能不能負擔這一個啦上次我的質詢 大概是這個方向嘛"},{"start":154.426,"end":165.77,"text":"那我覺得啦你們還是要及早準備啦尤其要跟地方要準備啦尤其是我不知道主委你說平埔族身份的認定啦齁其實齁"},{"start":170.216,"end":194.419,"text":"啊 有一句話啦齁有當三公 沒當三媽啦齁那其實啊 很多人搞不好身上都有頻譜逐流的血液喔這個我們預估大概是一百萬對不對 嗯但有可能更多啊 對不對這個所以你們啊 這個很多的啊 必須還是及早準備啦齁另外啊齁"},{"start":196.235,"end":219.959,"text":"我們院版12條裡面有寫一個這個登記期間的限制登記期間的限制就是5年嘛,剛剛也有人講,必要時再延長5年主委你覺得這一個5加5這樣子你覺得有沒有時間夠不夠,會不會太短"},{"start":222.085,"end":229.201,"text":"這個跟委員報告我們跟平埔族的族人就是說北中南還有到東部做黨的時候他們也認為"},{"start":230.703,"end":259.602,"text":"是不是五年太短是可不可以五年過了是不是再延長或者是有人是講是不是可以定二十年那這個我想我們也多尊重我們現在回來之後也在想是不是跟將來進入這個法條的審查是不是也跟大院委員來做一個請教就是說是怎麼樣是不是一定要二十年嗎還是十五年還是到了以後再來延也都可以"},{"start":261.723,"end":273.695,"text":"其實我為什麼會提這個問題有判例 如果你這樣子給他限制他的他的身份是與生俱來的如果用年限來這樣子的話會不會有違憲的問題會違憲的問題嗎"},{"start":287.15,"end":302.412,"text":"你們應該去研究一下這個是會不會因為他的身份本來就是與生俱來的啊對不對那我請教一下如果說剛好5加50年對不對"},{"start":304.952,"end":329.835,"text":"他剛好人都在國外或什麼的他來不及回來或他回來的時候發現他有這個身份那他要登記我們跟他講說完全不行這個狀況也有可能會出現所以我覺得我們這個真的是要再討論那如果說以我們現在採取登記制"},{"start":332.501,"end":354.649,"text":"會不會說來比如說現在有一個葛馬蘭族但會不會再出現他新取得的叫做葛馬蘭平埔族會不會有這個情況出現我跟委員報告不要說平埔原住民你現在山地原住民也有排灣族他是山地原住民他也是平地原住民"},{"start":355.475,"end":378.799,"text":"有啊一樣這個其實現在就有了所以那麼你是譬如說撒基拉亞現在是平地原住民也有可能我們平埔原住民裡面也會有撒基拉亞族對啊對啊所以主委你很清楚我現在所說的問題那所以未來我們台灣的原住民族會不會超過三四十族一個"},{"start":384.437,"end":408.513,"text":"不會了應該16再加現在平埔最少是可能最多是10個組16加2626不會再我想來平埔組現在10個大概10個大概10個那我們現在目前的本來就有的大概就16組對對不對那我剛剛跟你所說的會不會出現一個這個"},{"start":411.895,"end":427.499,"text":"葛瑪蘭的平埔族你也說有可能啊對不對所以你光平埔族裡面也有可能有16個他認為他是比如說葛瑪蘭的平埔族或什麼等等的會不會有這種情況出現會啊會啊因為他又是葛瑪蘭嘛他是平原對啊"},{"start":438.971,"end":466.416,"text":"不是我跟你講很多情況都可能發生啦主委你知道我在說什麼所以未來台灣的這個原住民族絕對不是像你們剛說的10族然後再加16族26族也有可能會更多這個我都覺得啦我們在這個立法的過程或什麼我們都要必須要去考量啦因為從以前到現在"},{"start":468.786,"end":496.264,"text":"通婚太多了啦對不對你不能限定他說他只有一個啊對不對這通婚那麼多啊尤其是平埔族或什麼都有他的各我們現在講的平埔族的始祖裡面有很多都有不同的文化啊對不對他連講一講他的文化是都不一樣的啊對不對所以我說的那種情況有可能會再出現很多族啊對不對我們要提早因應啦好不好好謝謝"},{"start":500.675,"end":501.418,"text":"好 謝謝張宏祿召委的資訊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":272,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時49分）我請主委。"],["主席：曾主委，有請。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：主委，我記得上次我有質詢對於平埔族的登記，有很多很複雜的工作，從我上次質詢到現在，時間也說長不長，但我不知道我質詢完之後，後續的準備工作你們進行得如何？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，這個法案我們提出並送到大院來之後，我們去年就已經開了9場座談會，這個月北、中、南我們就各開了1場，是由我親自來主持，我親自來面對我們的平埔族人，我們也整理了他們主要的意見，有很多也是希望就直接加入原住民的身分法，這個也有；但也有部分的人並不盡然完全適用原住民族基本法，是不是還要再外加一些更保障他們的，這些都有，我們都有整理。"],["張委員宏陸：不是，很明顯的，如果可以開放登記，一開始開放登記，地方的有的是原民局、有的是什麼的，他們的人力夠不夠？很多平埔族人要來登記，這個部分中央到底是否有能力去承擔？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，一開始我們主要是先解決認定原住民族的部分，就是認定他是平埔族，然後再認定他個人身分，先做身分的登記，後續的權利義務我想我們也會很快就跟上，能做的我們就先做，當然這個不容易啦，但我們還是要先做。"],["張委員宏陸：不是啦、不是啦，主委，這些我都知道啦，我是說開放登記的時候，可能一下子湧了好幾萬人要來登記，我們能不能負擔這部分？上次我的質詢大概是這個方向嘛。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得你們還是要及早準備，尤其跟地方都要一起準備。主委，你說平埔族身分的認定，有一句話說「有唐山公，無唐山媽」，其實很多人身上搞不好都流有平埔族的血液，我們預估大概是100萬，但有可能更多啊，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以你們還是必須要及早準備。另外院版第十二條裡面有寫到一個登記期間的限制，就是5年，剛剛也有人講，必要時再延長5年，主委，你覺得這個5加5的時間夠不夠？會不會太短？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，我們到北中南跟平埔族的族人座談時，他們也認為5年是不是太短，可不可以5年過了再延長，或是有人講是不是可以定20年，這個我想我們也都尊重，我們回來之後也在想，將來進入法條的實質審查時，也跟大院委員來請教，是不是一定要20年，還是15年，還是到了以後再來延也都可以。"],["張委員宏陸：不、不、不，主委，其實我為什麼會提這個問題你知道嗎？有判例，如果你這樣子給他限制，他的身分是與生俱來的，如果用年限來限制的話，會不會有違憲的問題？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們再來討論。"],["張委員宏陸：你們應該去研究一下這個會不會違憲，因為他的身分就是與生俱來的啊，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：如果定為5加5共10年，結果他剛好人都在國外或什麼的，來不及回來，或回來的時候發現他有這個身分，那他要登記，我們卻只能跟他說完全不行，這個狀況也有可能會出現喔，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["張委員宏陸：所以我覺得這個真的是要再討論啦。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["張委員宏陸：如果說以我們現在採取登記制，比如現在有一個噶瑪蘭族，但會不會出現新取得的身分叫做噶瑪蘭平埔族，會不會有這個情況出現？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，不要說平埔原住民，現在山地原住民，也有排灣族是山地原住民，但也有平地原住民是排灣族的，有啊，一樣，這個其實現在就有了，譬如說撒奇萊雅族現在是平地原住民，也有可能在平埔原住民裡面也有撒奇萊雅族。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊，所以主委你很清楚我現在所說的問題啦。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以未來我們臺灣的原住民族會不會超過3、40族？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不會，現在平埔最多是10個族，16加10是26，我想不會再……"],["張委員宏陸：平埔族現在大概10個。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，大概10個。"],["張委員宏陸：目前本來就有的是16族，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["張委員宏陸：誠如我剛剛跟你說的，會不會出現一個噶瑪蘭的平埔族？你也說有可能，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有。"],["張委員宏陸：所以光平埔族裡面也有可能有16個他認為自己是噶瑪蘭平埔族或其他等等的，會不會有這種情況出現？"],["曾主任委員智勇：會啊！"],["張委員宏陸：會啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：因為他又是噶瑪蘭嘛，他是平原，對啊。"],["張委員宏陸：不是，我跟你講，很多情況都可能發生啦！主委，你知道我在說什麼。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以未來臺灣的原住民族絕對不是像你們剛剛說的10族再加16族為26族，也有可能會更多，這方面我覺得我們在立法的過程都必須要去考量，因為從以前到現在通婚太多了，對不對？你不能只限定他只有一個，對不對？通婚那麼多啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我們現在所講的平埔族10族裡面，有很多都有不同的文化，對不對？他們的文化都是不一樣的，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以我說的那一種情況是有可能會再出現很多族，對不對？我們要提早因應，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["張委員宏陸：謝謝。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸召委的質詢。","報告委員會，我們在高金素梅委員質詢完之後休息3分鐘。","下一位請許宇甄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-28","speakers":["牛煦庭","林宜瑾","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","張宏陸","許宇甄","高金素梅","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","張智倫","蘇巧慧","丁學忠"],"page_start":137,"meetingDate":["2025-06-30"],"gazette_id":"1146401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第28次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」；二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「平\n埔原住民族群身分法草案」案；三、審查委員賴惠員等21人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1146401_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}