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填一些資料比如說自傳等等等等那就是我回顧一下我過去的經歷我說因為我只當過檢察官嘛那其他之前其實包括現任的大法官也有檢察官出身的"},{"start":197.529,"end":200.911,"text":"我們就來解釋一下你擔任檢察官的時候的一些表現"},{"start":220.481,"end":245.91,"text":"剛剛大家特別提到了有關拉法葉案事實上這個陳長文律師就直指你是核心也是主辦但是剛剛你在回答委員的詢問的時候又說起訴不是你那我就要具體問你因為當時大家都知道盧恩發檢察總長他受到了上級的命令當時陳水扁總統下令"},{"start":246.61,"end":267.247,"text":"然後呢他就是施壓要起訴當時呢他是交代黃世民但是呢黃世民不從才是你來接手那請問你接手了之後你做了什麼事因為你剛剛迴避說你你沒有起訴雷學明等人請問那你接手之後你有沒有就是羈押他們我在我剛剛講過就是說這個案子是90年7月起訴的"},{"start":276.421,"end":301.623,"text":"90年7月我事實上是不在北檢我問你就是吳仁芳要求黃世明接手那黃世明不從是你接手的你接手之後做了什麼我當時是一個基層的檢察官黃檢察長他時候應該是北檢的檢察長吧我不太確定但是事實上是有其他的學長他們處理這個案子"},{"start":302.384,"end":319.874,"text":"那我在90年11月從板橋地檢現在的新北地檢調到台北地檢因為你接手的時候當時裁定這個羈押的時候當時是在你手上嗎"},{"start":321.623,"end":331.782,"text":"應該不是你很多回答都是有點模糊我記憶中應該不是那為什麼陳朝文律師他只指你就是主要的關鍵人"},{"start":333.168,"end":357.6,"text":"主要的關鍵我也不曉得為什麼他說主要的關鍵就是因為我被指示就是他如總長那吃鴨黃甲長然後就是叫我去起訴嘛他原來的意思是這樣但是這完全不是事實那我可以請教你雷學敏相關等人的案件你當中扮演什麼樣的角色"},{"start":358.7,"end":361.685,"text":"我扮演的角色我是參加公訴 論告"},{"start":370.086,"end":390.302,"text":"所以公訴你是主要的公訴的檢察官對不對公訴其中之一啦因為起訴的人所以你現在要告訴大家是你不是主責跟你沒有關係不是跟我沒有關係我不能這樣講因為我參加參與這個公訴就不能跟我講沒有關係事實上是跟我就是這個案子我是有參與的"},{"start":392.233,"end":418.192,"text":"但是這個案件我自己起訴的案件不是這個案子我自己起訴的案件是後來的案子那這個案子最後是被判無罪你對於你自己擔任公訴的檢察官現在看到這個案子被判無罪你當時你有沒有檢討自己在當中所扮演的角色你到底是奉承上命在扮這個角色還是你有積極去追求一些客觀的事實因為現在大家都看到這個"},{"start":419.493,"end":440.019,"text":"判例就是當時違反了無罪推定的原則在沒有積極的人證物證情況底下依然要去起訴雷學明等人然後他們也獲得了冤獄的賠償這個案子你有什麼看法是這點我說明一下就是我剛剛有稍微提一下就是無罪推定是訴訟法的規定每一位被告"},{"start":440.959,"end":448.87,"text":"他就是被告被提出告訴也好告發也好他成為被告他事實上必須要受到無罪推定的保護"},{"start":450.031,"end":474.237,"text":"那檢察官偵查之後如果認為證據足夠證明他有足夠的犯罪嫌疑有足夠的 suspicion他就要起訴這是一個必須我在問你雷學敏的案件你覺得他的人證物證是不是足夠因為法院的判決覺得不足夠我講就是說起訴的決定是其他的檢察官"},{"start":475.461,"end":490.018,"text":"我起訴之後要進行公訴因為你也參與這個案子嘛所以我現在是要問你說你現在回過頭來看當時是不是人證物證的確是不充分法院的裁定是有道理的我沒有辦法這樣很肯定這樣講啦"},{"start":491.121,"end":494.463,"text":"檢察官起訴跟法官判決有罪的標準是不一樣的"},{"start":506.411,"end":528.351,"text":"也就是說檢察官認為如果說還是要依照證據為原則吧當然當然所以我在問你啊那個案子人證物證到底充不充分啊證明的標準我們可以講是不一樣的就是說我在當檢察官的時候我認為有相當的犯罪的嫌疑夠了我認為可以起訴所以我現在是說你現在回頭過來看這個案子的時候你怎麼評價嗎"},{"start":530.152,"end":547.626,"text":"當法院做出跟你當時的看法不一樣的時候你怎麼評價自己當時這麼積極的一個無罪的判決的案件我現在不適合發表任何評論案子已經過去了對這個不適合現在目前還有一部分的案件犯罪所得的"},{"start":548.496,"end":556.461,"text":"那個追那個追索現在還在進行在歐洲還有些地方在其他在加勒比亞當時起訴的決定不是我做的"},{"start":563.24,"end":589.711,"text":"起訴的決定不是我做的所以呢蔡平民人我覺得你在回答上面遇到對你有利的你會承認是自己遇到對你不利的你就說不是你我覺得這樣一個態度好像就是不是在一件事情上這樣被檢視起來就會覺得你會有意另外一個我要問你的是你當時擔任法務部國兩司司長的時候呢有發生一件陳同佳"},{"start":590.351,"end":609.888,"text":"杀害女友的很重大的命案当时台湾人民也非常的愤怒觉得陈同佳应该要受台湾的刑事处罚但是这件事情陈同佳他在香港他是另外一个案子他服役完出狱之后他要来台湾自首"},{"start":612.17,"end":635.765,"text":"當時誰擋了陳同佳的投案之路你當時司法務部國兩司的司長在這件事情上你的態度跟角色又是什麼我基本的看法是被告如果要主動來投案那我覺得是不需要透過司法互助的途徑的也就是說他要來投案基本上他是可以來"},{"start":638.204,"end":663.67,"text":"這個案子因為他是一個殺人案件他是一個殺人案件他本身因為他已經有殺人的之前的事實他事實上有些安全的疑慮那當時呢要去當時的政府包括法務部包括警政署他們認為說如果陳同佳如果是陳同佳要來投案那"},{"start":665.427,"end":688.815,"text":"應該有人去陪同就是說戒護因為他要坐飛機來在飛機上事實上有可能有安全的餘力當時港方有人陪同啊所以呢他們就派人去香港那有跟香港當局溝通說能不能把陳同佳送到飛機上比如說送到登機門"},{"start":690.015,"end":696.101,"text":"由台灣的檢察人員去解釋我只是要問你你當時是國兩司的司長你又擔任過檢察官照道理來講你對一個殺人犯你應該是會主張要緊急來偵辦當時的立場是這樣子你有沒有去說服你的長官"},{"start":710.901,"end":723.974,"text":"我盡量 我有盡力說服啦你當時是這樣的立場是不是是 是這樣的立場所以最後你沒有說服你的長官最後還是這件個案到現在還是完全沒有辦法讓陳同佳逍遙法外不是那麼順暢"},{"start":728.879,"end":755.379,"text":"這個是我們看到的情況另外一個呢你在被提名的記者會上面這個蕭副總統呢他指示提名蔡秋名是為了提升國安案件的專業能量確保國家安全所以他指示然後呢你就很快的回應你說提升國安案件專業能量是任內的首要任務但是在今天你的書面報告這個"},{"start":757.537,"end":777.977,"text":"案件專業能量沒有在你的重點任務裡面你直接把它標示出來我要問的是你當時是因為記者會去附和蕭副總統的話還是你是真心的認為你來擔任司法院的院長你是要完成提升國安案件的專業能量"},{"start":780.433,"end":807.604,"text":"其實我現在有點忘記我沒有講說提案提升國安的媒體是怎麼登 我不太確定那個你可以看一下我的PPT就是是我的上任的首要業務這點我不確定這點我沒有這樣講這點我不確定但是我想國安問題在台灣現在目前我覺得相當的是一個嚴重的問題那很多國民都引以為憂啦作為一個國民我覺得國安問題是重要的"},{"start":808.448,"end":829.091,"text":"那是不是你的首要任務我現在在問你一遍你可以澄清國安問題基本上不是大法官的工作的內容因為他是要做憲法法庭的審判但是如果在司法院院長的職務裡面他事實上會跟這個問題有點關係"},{"start":830.832,"end":854.781,"text":"就是因為在目前還有國安專題就是你上任之後提升國安案件專業能量是不是你的首要任務我不能講說這是我的首要任務我想還有更直接的一個社團院長要做的事情所以你當時在記者會是為了呼應蕭副總統所以就講出這樣的話沒有這個意思"},{"start":855.521,"end":878.869,"text":"沒有這個意思我到底有沒有講這個話我們再確認一下我不算確定有或者是沒有但是我這個應該不是我的意思不是你的意思你講的但是不是你的意思好這個目前為止發現蔡提名有一個問題就是說你講過的話呢你都會說好像不是你的意思包括"},{"start":879.669,"end":896.772,"text":"其實你也講過一段話在台灣法官比較靜態檢察官比較動態因此未來如果有機會讓兩個工作有一段時間互相交換接觸增加視野與經歷可能會有益法官的身心健康"},{"start":898.527,"end":920.825,"text":"這段話是不是你講的這段話是我講的但是我講這段話是我參考歐洲的一些實務就是特別是德國因為他們法官跟檢察官之間的交流非常的頻繁但是我並沒有聽德國的同事講說因為檢察官跟法官之間的交流讓檢審"},{"start":923.614,"end":950.041,"text":"審檢不分或者是說那我就問你你講這段話未來你擔任司法院院長你是不是要去推動這項制度讓這一個檢察官跟法官兩個工作可以有一段時間互相來交換你要不要推動這個要看實際的需要啦就是這種事情就是我剛剛提到的就是您一剛開始提到就是說我對司法院的業務比較不了解其中的一點"},{"start":951.101,"end":967.367,"text":"我想我有這樣子的這個當然是一個當時的一個想法提名人我提醒你你在回答徐宇峥委員的時候你的態度是說你思慮不周所以你道歉了"},{"start":967.927,"end":995.64,"text":"那你在回答我的時候看起來態度又不一樣我覺得這個前後一致性我們對於一個司法院院長的信任度也是很重要因為這樣子看不出你基本的原則跟立場是什麼接下來我要問的是我們現行的羈押制度有沒有被濫用的問題押人取共你覺得這個在現行的檢察官的作為上面如果有人押人取共你贊不贊成"},{"start":997.728,"end":1026.216,"text":"如果真正是押人提供我當然不贊成真的不贊成嗎但是現行我們看到目前有一些檢察官在做法上面他在證據不充分的情況底下他就使用羈押的手段或者是一再延押的手段想要達成他的調查的目的請問這個我們相關的四字號的解釋跟行送法的相關的規定你認為這樣的一個做法有沒有違法"},{"start":1027.857,"end":1047.957,"text":"這個有沒有違法要看個案就是押忍這件事情我想肯定是很多羈押的案件但是為什麼會羈押我想他有法定的理由那我如果不去了解這些事實的狀況那我就隨便做評論我覺得事實不負責任"},{"start":1048.717,"end":1076.306,"text":"好這一個部分也是現在讓民眾覺得害怕的問題因為如果是這種押忍取共事實上已經是侵害人權了那未來你要擔任是司法院的院長我想保障人權是司法院非常重要的一個責任跟角色這個部分我們現在看到的是現行的法院有很多當檢察官提出羈押的時候法院的審理好像都是照單全收"},{"start":1077.026,"end":1096.595,"text":"並沒有在審理上面真正的好好認真的再去做一些適度的研判這個如果將來沒有機會擔任司法院院長這個部分應該是要好好檢討一下另外一個就是有關於這個行政跟司法之間的立法之間的衝突"},{"start":1097.515,"end":1117.549,"text":"你曾經說過中央機關有法律及政治面挑戰我認為適合由司法院來解決所以代表未來你如果擔任司法院院長的時候你會更大幅的去受理有關於行政跟立法之間的爭議是這樣子嗎你有講過這段話"},{"start":1119.124,"end":1140.079,"text":"我想這個是憲法法庭的任務之一就是說如果有機關之間的職權的爭議的話他們是可以提申請到由憲法法庭來解決那這個是一個被動的受理因為說法官的立場就是說他是不告不理"},{"start":1140.859,"end":1149.668,"text":"所以他不能是直接說來你們的正義我來解決不會有這樣的事情就是說他如果有這樣的案件那麼就依法處理"},{"start":1151.236,"end":1178.505,"text":"我們可以看到過去憲法法庭事實上在針對一些不受理的高度爭議的申請案這個也是很常見的包括2016年監察院的不當黨產條例是不受理的2018年立法院的前瞻的違憲疑慮也不受理2022年林黛嬅提的這個也不受理2024年賴香林勞保基金違憲疑慮也是不受理"},{"start":1179.085,"end":1208.25,"text":"但是如果未來的這個憲法法庭要受理的是屬於行政跟立法之間的衝突的話那等於是把憲法法庭自己也捲入了一些政治的紛爭當中那我們希望台灣的司法其實是真正可以是超然獨立的那在受理跟不受理的這些標準我覺得未來如果你有機會擔任司法院院長這個真的是要好好思考清楚的"},{"start":1208.87,"end":1219.262,"text":"絕對不是因為是當權好 謝謝王玉敏委員的詢問也謝謝蔡備提名人的說明"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":401,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時43分）謝謝主席，有請蔡提名人。"],["主席：麻煩再請蔡提名人。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：蔡提名人你好。上午我其實有一直在聽你回答委員的一些回應，剛剛我聽了你回答林岱樺委員，坦白講，我幫你捏了一把冷汗，你說你對司法院的業務不是很了解，今天你是被提名要擔任司法院院長的人，你在詢答的時候說你對司法院的業務不是很了解，我想問的是：你真的準備好了嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：對不起。"],["王委員育敏：你真的準備好要當司法院院長了嗎？你對司法院的業務不了解，那你怎麼可以擔任司法院院長呢？為什麼賴總統會提名你呢？是不是有更多比你更熟悉司法院業務的人、更專業的人更適合這個職務呢？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我想一定有人比我更熟悉司法院的業務。"],["王委員育敏：所以你是最適合的人選嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我自己不確定我是不是最適合的人選，但是我覺得我應該是適當的人選之一，我想擔任一個重要的職務，除了能力跟經驗以外，我覺得人品很重要……"],["王委員育敏：什麼很重要？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：以我自己的評估，我自己對自我的評價，我覺得人品是好的。"],["王委員育敏：人品，是不是？人品指的是哪一個部分？比其他的人更突出？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我想人品最重要的特點是沒有私心，沒有為自己的私利著想，就是有一個職務。其實我在賴總統召見的時候，我自己不知道我會被提名為司法院院長。"],["王委員育敏：所以你到現在還不知道是誰推薦你？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：其實我不知道，我一直很好奇……"],["王委員育敏：到現在你還不知道？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：因為這個過程是鄭部長徵詢了我的意見，我跟他講我年紀不小了，所以其實一開始我是婉拒的，但是後來有朋友跟我說，有這個機會就做做看吧，我想如果能夠多為臺灣做一點事情，我覺得如果有這個機會，那我願意，所以我就接受這個推薦。","事實上，我是自我推薦，因為在這個程序上，所以我要……"],["王委員育敏：你是自我推薦？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是自我推薦，所以我們要寫填一些資料，比如自傳等等，我回顧一下我過去的經歷，因為我只當過檢察官，其實之前包括現任的大法官也有檢察官出身，就是當檢察官當到去擔任大法官，基本上應該是沒有問題。也就是之前的檢察官有多數也沒有當過法官，但是當了大法官以後，我覺得他們表現還不錯……"],["王委員育敏：我們就來檢視一下你擔任檢察官時的一些表現。剛剛大家特別提到了有關拉法葉案，事實上，陳長文律師就直指你是核心，也是主辦，但是你剛剛在回答委員詢問的時候，又說不是你起訴的，那我就要具體問你，因為當時大家都知道盧仁發檢察總長受到了上級的命令，當時陳水扁總統下令，然後他施壓要起訴，當時他是交代黃世銘，但是黃世銘不從，才由你來接手，請問你接手之後，你做了什麼事？因為你剛剛迴避說，你沒有起訴雷學明等人，請問你接手之後，你有沒有羈押他們？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我剛剛講過，這個案子是90年7月起訴的，90年7月的時候，我事實上不在北檢……"],["王委員育敏：對，我問你的是盧仁發要求黃世銘接手，但是黃世銘不從，之後是你接手的，你接手之後做了什麼？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我當時是一個基層的檢察官，黃檢察長那時候應該是北檢的檢察長吧？我不太確定，但事實上有其他的學長處理這個案子，我在90年11月從板橋地檢（現在的新北地檢）調到臺北地檢，因為總長知道……"],["王委員育敏：你接手的時候，當時裁定羈押是在你手上嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：應該不是。"],["王委員育敏：應該不是？你很多回答都是有點模糊。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我記憶中應該不是。"],["王委員育敏：那為什麼陳長文律師直指，你就是主要的關鍵人？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：主要的關鍵，我也不曉得為什麼他說我是主要關鍵人……"],["王委員育敏：沒有承辦……"],["蔡秋明被提名人：就是因為我被指示……盧總長施壓黃檢察長，然後叫我去起訴，他原來的意思是這樣，但這完全不是事實。"],["王委員育敏：那我可以請教你雷學明相關人等的案件，你在當中扮演什麼樣的角色？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我扮演的角色是……"],["王委員育敏：你承辦了哪些內容，你可不可以告訴大家？這個時間，你也可以為自己陳情……"],["蔡秋明被提名人：參加公訴。"],["王委員育敏：公訴你有嘛？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：論告，對。"],["王委員育敏：所以你是主要的公訴檢察官，對不對？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：其中之一啦！因為起訴的人……"],["王委員育敏：所以你現在要告訴大家你不是主責，跟你沒有關係？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：不是跟我沒有關係，我不能這樣講，因為我有參與這個公訴，就不能講跟我沒有關係。"],["王委員育敏：對。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：事實上這個案子我是有參與的，但我自己起訴的案件不是這個案子，我起訴的案件是後來的案子，是後來……"],["王委員育敏：這個案子最後是被判無罪。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是的。"],["王委員育敏：對於你自己擔任公訴的檢察官，現在看到這個案子被判無罪，你當時有沒有檢討自己在當中所扮演的角色？你到底是奉承上命在扮這個角色，還是你有積極去追求一些客觀的事實？因為現在大家都看到這個判決，當時違反了無罪推定原則，在沒有積極人證、物證的情況底下，依然起訴雷學明等人，然後他們也獲得了冤獄的賠償，對這個案子你有什麼看法？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：這點我說明一下，我剛剛有稍微提一下，就是無罪推定是訴訟法的規定，每一位被告被提出告訴也好、告發也好，他成為被告，事實上必須要受到無罪推定的保護。檢察官偵查之後，如果認為證據足夠，證明他有足夠的犯罪嫌疑、有足夠的suspicion，他就要起訴，這是一個必須，叫做起訴法定主義。"],["王委員育敏：我再問你雷學明的案件，你覺得他的人證、物證是不是足夠？因為法院的判決覺得不足夠。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：報告委員，剛剛我講的就是，起訴的決定是其他的檢察官，起訴之後要進行公訴，我有去參與……"],["王委員育敏：因為你也參與這個案子嘛！"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是。"],["王委員育敏：所以我現在要問你，你現在回過頭來看，當時是不是人證、物證的確是不充分，法院的裁定是有道理的？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我沒有辦法很肯定這樣講，但是我剛剛講的是……"],["王委員育敏：所以你當時就是……"],["蔡秋明被提名人：檢察官起訴的……"],["王委員育敏：你承長官的意旨，然後被交辦？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：完全不是。"],["王委員育敏：不是嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：不是，檢察官起訴的標準跟法官判決有罪的標準是不一樣的，也就是檢察官認為如果證據足夠的話……"],["王委員育敏：他還是要依照證據為原則嘛！"],["蔡秋明被提名人：當然、當然。"],["王委員育敏：所以我在問你，那個案子的人證、物證到底充不充分？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：證明的標準我們可以講是不一樣的，就是我在當檢察官的時候，我認為有相當的犯罪嫌疑，足夠了，我認為可以起訴，我們……"],["王委員育敏：我現在是說你現在回頭過來看這個案子的時候，你怎麼評價？當法院作出的裁定跟你的看法不一樣的時候，你怎麼評價自己當時這麼積極的……"],["蔡秋明被提名人：對一個無罪判決的案件，我現在不適合發表任何評論。"],["王委員育敏：這個案子已經過去了啊！"],["蔡秋明被提名人：對，這個不適合評論，目前還有一部分的案件，其犯罪所得的追索現在還在進行，在歐洲還有一些地方，在加勒比海還有一些……"],["王委員育敏：所以你覺得當時還是沒有問題的？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我覺得當時起訴的決定不是我作的，所以……"],["王委員育敏：蔡被提名人，我覺得你在回答上面遇到對你有利的會承認是自己，遇到對你不利的就說不是你，我覺得這樣的態度好像不是……在一件事情上這樣被檢視起來，就覺得你會猶疑。另外我要問你的是，你當時擔任法務部國兩司司長的時候有發生一件陳同佳殺害女友的重大命案。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是的。"],["王委員育敏：當時臺灣人民也非常憤怒，覺得陳同佳應該要受臺灣的刑事處罰，但是陳同佳在香港有另外一個案子，他服刑完出獄之後要來臺灣自首，當時是誰擋了陳同佳的投案之路？你當時是法務部國兩司司長，在這件事情上，你的態度跟角色又是什麼？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我基本的看法是，被告如果要主動投案，我覺得是不需要透過司法互助的途徑，也就是他要來投案，基本上他可以來，但是……"],["王委員育敏：當時是誰阻擋？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：這個案子是殺人案件，因為他已經有殺人的事實，事實上有一些安全的疑慮，當時的政府機關，包括法務部、警政署，他們認為如果陳同佳要來投案，就應該有人陪同，也就是戒護，因為他要坐飛機來，在飛機上事實上有可能有安全的疑慮，所以……"],["王委員育敏：當時港方有人陪同啊！"],["蔡秋明被提名人：他們就派人去香港跟香港當局溝通，問說能不能把陳同佳送到飛機上？比如送到登機門，由臺灣的警察人員戒護。"],["王委員育敏：我想細節的部分就不用多討論了。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：這是沒有辦法的，因為這個沒有辦法達成決議。"],["王委員育敏：我只是要問你，你當時是國兩司的司長，你又擔任過檢察官，照道理講，對一個殺人犯，你應該是會主張要積極來偵辦。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：當然，是的。"],["王委員育敏：你當時的立場是這樣子。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我當時的立場是這樣。"],["王委員育敏：你有沒有說服你的長官？你有積極說服嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我有盡力說服。"],["王委員育敏：你當時是這樣的立場，是不是？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是，是這樣的立場。"],["王委員育敏：好，所以最後你沒有說服成你的長官，這個個案到現在還是完全沒有辦法，讓陳同佳逍遙法外，這是我們看到的情況。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我想臺灣跟香港的關係不是那麼順暢，其實我剛剛也有提過。"],["王委員育敏：另外，在你被提名的記者會上面，蕭副總統表示：「提名蔡秋明是為了提升國安案件的專業能量，確保國家安全」，然後你就很快地回應說：「提升國安案件專業能量是任內的首要任務」，但是在你今天的書面報告中，國安案件專業能量並沒有在你直接標示出來的重點任務裡面。我要問的是，這是你當時因為記者會附和蕭副總統的話，還是你是真心認為，你來擔任司法院的院長，是要完成提升國安案件的專業能量？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：其實我現在有點忘記，我有沒有說提升國安的……"],["王委員育敏：媒體有報。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：媒體是怎麼刊登的，我不太確定。"],["王委員育敏：你可以看一下我的PPT。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：說是我上任的首要業務，這點我不確定，我有沒有這樣講，這點我不確定，但是我覺得國安問題目前在臺灣是一個相當嚴重的問題，很多國民都引以為憂，作為一個國民，我覺得國安問題是重要的，但是我並沒有……"],["王委員育敏：那是不是你的首要任務？我現在再你問一遍，你可以澄清。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：這並不是當大法官的任務，國安問題基本上不是大法官的工作內容，因為他是要做憲法法庭的審判，如果在司法院院長的這個職務裡面，事實上會跟這個問題有點關係。"],["王委員育敏：對。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：就是因為我們目前沒有國安專庭……"],["王委員育敏：我要你在這邊很慎重地再回答一次，就是提升國安案件專業能量，是不是你上任之後的首要任務？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我不能說這是我的首要任務，我想司法院院長還有更直接要做的事情。"],["王委員育敏：所以你當時在記者會是為了呼應蕭副總統，才講出這樣的話？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：沒有，我沒有這個意思。"],["王委員育敏：沒有這個意思？但你講出了這樣的話。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我到底有沒有講這句話，我們再確認一下，我不是很確定有或者是沒有，但這個應該不是我的意思。"],["王委員育敏：不是你的意思？你講的，但不是你的意思？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是不是我講的，我不知道。"],["王委員育敏：好，到目前為止，我發現蔡被提名人有一個問題，就是你講過的話，你都會說好像不是你的意思，包括你也講過一段話：「在臺灣法官比較靜態，檢察官比較動態，因此未來如果有機會讓兩個工作有一段時間互相交換、接觸，增加視野與經歷，可能會有益法官的身心健康。」這段話是不是你講的？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：這段話是我講的。"],["王委員育敏：是你講的嘛？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我講這段話是我參考歐洲的一些實務，特別是德國，因為他們法官跟檢察官之間的交流非常頻繁。但是我並沒有聽德國的同事說因為檢察官跟法官之間的交流，讓審檢不分，或者是法官的獨立性會喪失。"],["王委員育敏：那我就問你，你講這段話，未來你擔任司法院院長，你是不是要去推動這項制度，讓檢察官跟法官的工作可以有一段時間互相交換？你要不要推動？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：這個要看實際的需要，這種事情就是我剛剛提到的，您一剛開始也提到，我對司法院的業務比較不了解其中的一點，我想這是我當時的一個想法，就是……"],["王委員育敏：被提名人，我提醒你，你在回答許宇甄委員的時候，你的態度是說你思慮不周，所以你道歉，但你在回答我的時候，看起來態度又不一樣，我覺得前後一致性對於我們對司法院院長的信任度也是很重要，因為這樣子看不出你基本的原則跟立場是什麼。","接下來，我要問你的是，我們現行的羈押制度有沒有被濫用的問題？你覺得押人取供在現行檢察官的作為上面，如果有人押人取供，你贊不贊成？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：如果真正是押人取供，我當然不贊成。"],["王委員育敏：不贊成嘛！但是我們看到目前有一些檢察官在作法上面，在證據不充分的情況底下，他就使用羈押的手段，或者是一再延押的手段，想要達成他調查的目的，請問我們相關釋字的解釋，跟刑訟法相關的規定，你認為這樣的作法有沒有違法？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：有沒有違法要看個案啦！押人這件事情……我想肯定是有很多羈押的案件，但是檢察官為什麼會羈押？我想他有法定的理由啦，我如果不去了解這些事實的狀況就隨便做評論，我覺得是不負責任的。"],["王委員育敏：好。這個部分也是現在讓民眾覺得害怕的問題，因為如果是這種押人取供，事實上已經是侵害人權……"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是。"],["王委員育敏：未來你要擔任司法院的院長，我想保障人權是司法院非常重要的一個責任跟角色，但是我們看到現行的法院有很多當檢察官提出羈押的時候，法院的審理好像都是照單全收，並沒有在審理上面真正好好認真的再去做一些適度的研判，如果將來你有機會擔任司法院院長，這個部分應該是要好好檢討一下。","另外，有關行政跟立法之間的衝突，你曾經說過：中央機關有法律及政治面挑戰，我認為適合由司法院來解決。所以代表你未來如果擔任司法院院長的時候，你會更大幅地去受理有關於行政跟立法之間的爭議，是這樣子嗎？你有講過這段話。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我想這個是憲法法庭的任務之一，就是如果有機關之間職權的爭議，他們是可以聲請由憲法法庭來解決，這個是被動的受理，因為大法官的立場就是不告不理，他不能直接說，你們的爭議我來解決，不會有這樣的事情，所以如果有這樣的案件，那麼我們就依法處理。"],["王委員育敏：對，我們可以看到事實上過去憲法法庭在針對一些不受理、高度爭議的聲請案，這個也是很常見的，包括2016年監察院的不當黨產條例是不受理的；2018年立法院前瞻的違憲疑慮也不受理；2022年林岱樺提的案子也不受理；2024年賴香伶勞保基金違憲疑慮也是不受理。但是，如果未來的憲法法庭要受理的是屬於行政跟立法之間的衝突的話，等於是把憲法法庭自己也捲入了一些政治的紛爭當中。我們希望臺灣的司法其實是可以真正超然獨立的，在受理跟不受理的這些標準上，我覺得未來如果你有機會擔任司法院院長，這個真的要好好思考清楚的，絕對不是因為是當權派所提出的就受理，以上，謝謝。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝王育敏委員的詢問，也謝謝蔡被提名人的說明。","接下來，我們請林淑芬委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃國昌","王義川","許宇甄","林岱樺","王育敏","林淑芬","賴士葆","陳亭妃","王鴻薇","張啓楷","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","林月琴","吳宗憲"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1146501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146501_00004","1146501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規\n定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並\n以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案","agenda_id":"1146501_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}