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封員一家五口"},{"start":94.423,"end":120.317,"text":"因為被詐騙一家五口死於非命最後呢在整個的調查的過程裡面其中一個重要的涉案人以15萬元交保所以台灣社會就說了難道一條命只值3萬元嗎所以連續的這些事件我想請問一下我們的被提名人您也是這個"},{"start":122.822,"end":144.223,"text":"相關的法院的經驗非常豐富不管是這個家暴令隔天立刻慘死街頭或者是一家五口被詐騙最後15萬元交保您覺得在司法上面是不是有什麼樣的疏失或者跟我們社會的期待事實上距離太遠"},{"start":146.375,"end":160.328,"text":"謝謝委員提問委員第一個問題是關於家暴令的問題家暴法在民國87年通過當時是整個大陸法系國家第一個有家暴法的國家是中華民國"},{"start":161.461,"end":179.193,"text":"家暴法的施行關於保護令的部分必須有很多單位的配合法官裁了保護令之後譬如說社政、警政都要相互的配合現在還有社工的要介入當然就是這個案子很不幸我們感到非常的心痛"},{"start":180.173,"end":202.748,"text":"這個案子在司法上面有沒有疏失或者有沒有要精進的地方法官在裁保護令經過適當的調查所以如果看那個時間的話是還在合理的範圍你認為是合理的範圍就保護令的部分的裁這就是我們在質疑的司法到底能不能保護好人"},{"start":203.248,"end":217.919,"text":"每一個人都認為他在那個環節裡面他做了他應該做的事但是最後的結果就是悲劇發生好 那我請問最近我們常常在討論也就是"},{"start":219.461,"end":235.103,"text":"檢察官申請羈押那到底要不要交保交保金到底是多少最近有非常多討論我剛提到豐原五口15萬元交保但是另外一個案子就是因為呢有一個"},{"start":236.184,"end":262.836,"text":"粉絲專業的小編他把幾個檢察官他的照片秀出來做了一個梗圖說命在命還結果呢就羈押禁建所以大家覺得說詐騙造成無口之家全部死於非命15萬元交保另外呢這個是檢察官當然會不爽然後就羈押禁建我們過去還有太多的案例啊"},{"start":264.005,"end":266.009,"text":"花眼好12万元交保"},{"start":267.374,"end":295.973,"text":"還有很多共諜案 所謂共諜案20萬元交保或者最近也發生一個案子讓台大醫院面上無光就是台大的名醫社性侵案40萬元交保你不能不說他的設計地位是很崇高他隨時可以離開台灣的然後棄保潛逃讓台大醫院的院長都經不住大罵這位潛逃的性侵的醫生"},{"start":297.314,"end":325.091,"text":"我讲到这么多的案例更不要讲我们之前好几个什么那种百万赌王一样的交保之后交保潜逃所以请问一下我们社会都在问那么法院在检察官来说就是他在要羁押开羁押庭的时候他的交保或者羁押他的标准到底是什么看起来我们变得非常混乱了"},{"start":326.072,"end":345.895,"text":"反而覺得有本事有辦法的他可能幾萬甚至上百萬交保對他們來講九牛一寶交保之後他就交保潛逃了但是我剛才講比如像這個小編這樣子對檢察官檢察官不爽但是他到了一個積壓境界的狀況連交保都不給他交保"},{"start":346.957,"end":362.193,"text":"那所以我不曉得在法院系統有沒有去討論過這樣的一個羈押的標準到底是什麼交保的條件又是什麼該交保不交保該羈押不羈押有沒有這樣的狀況"},{"start":364.566,"end":381.781,"text":"謝謝委員提問委員提到的這個豐原五口應該還是在偵查的階段那偵查的這個階段它的事實是浮動的我們不曉得檢察官他手邊掌握的證據到一個什麼程度所以就這個部分還沒有到院方我們也沒有辦法做出比較"},{"start":382.341,"end":405.296,"text":"正確的評論那麼至於其他的案件就是在就是如果檢察官申請羈押的時候我們法官會根據法律的規定來就是相關的要件一一審核之後來做最後的判斷被提名人您是被提名為司法院副院長我剛才也聽到你如果能夠當司法院副院長你有一些想要做法"},{"start":405.876,"end":425.165,"text":"可是老實說我們看不到你們對於司法的公平正義還有他的標準目前在社會大家覺得非常的失望跟期待落空很多你們想要做出什麼樣的努力我剛才講的就是以交保的這個標準我們看到無薩薩"},{"start":426.822,"end":437.434,"text":"覺得應該去羈押的你不羈押該交保的你不去交保另外你在這邊也特別提到你希望能夠追求審判獨立"},{"start":438.939,"end":462.944,"text":"我想請問你 你知道社會的民眾大部分認為我們司法沒有審判獨立我引述一個美麗島電子報的一個民意調查針對司法的部分竟然有高達將近六成的人認為現在的賴政府是介入司法的"},{"start":464.076,"end":465.817,"text":"有將近六成59.3%的民眾認為司法在選擇性辦案"},{"start":473.001,"end":497.763,"text":"您同不同意您覺得這樣子的民眾的看法跟你認為的是不是有落差而是不是也因此你希望要去爭取所謂的審判獨立跟委員報告就我的同事就是在我工作的環境我們大部分的法官都是兢兢業業然後獨立審判這個是沒有錯的"},{"start":498.303,"end":499.304,"text":"現在的審判有獨立嗎 就您所了解"},{"start":527.063,"end":529.032,"text":"就我所了解就我自己來講我覺得審判獨立跟"},{"start":531.448,"end":557.615,"text":"就是我的日常生活的一部分這是你個人但是大部分呢怎麼會有這樣的一個民意調查的結果呢我覺得就是我們跟民眾之間可能還有需要更多的了解跟溝通這就是你們每一個案子就是一次的溝通在這麼多的案子之下累積下來民眾的感受就是如此另外因為今天是大法官審查我要請問您"},{"start":559.329,"end":582.487,"text":"因為您也是推動國民法官的推手之一那麼在大法官做出解釋憲判之八對於法院要判決死刑才行一致決事實上引起社會極大的爭議認為這是實質廢死"},{"start":585.609,"end":614.314,"text":"而這跟國民法官推動有沒有相漢格的地方也就是說當時為什麼要有國民法官就是很多都認為很多是恐龍法官因為呢他們對於社會或者民眾的期待民眾認為司法應該要保護民眾保護好人嚴懲壞人事實上那個差距太大了所以才因此要推動國民法官所以我想請問一下如果"},{"start":615.294,"end":619.083,"text":"按照大法官的解釋整個的"},{"start":620.888,"end":646.389,"text":"死刑的判決必須要一致決那你認為應該是由一致決就可以推翻國民法官判死嗎如果國民法官認為他應該判處死刑但是因為現在的大法官的解釋必須這些所有專業的法官要一致決那是不是國民法官他的判決就輕易的被推翻您贊成嗎"},{"start":647.61,"end":674.515,"text":"跟委員說明這個113年限8號的這個判決因為申請的案件裡面並沒有一件是實行國民法官的所以這個判決的效力射程距離並沒有包含到國民法官的案件那國民法官的案件他的評議有特別的規定那就是他的評議就是如果是要一般的案件的量刑是二分之一然後如果是死刑判決是三分之二"},{"start":675.055,"end":695.673,"text":"那大法官在這個判決裡面有特別提到說如果是國民法官的判決的話也只有職業法官那三票要一致其他的部分呢就還是維持原來的三分之二的這個方式來進行所以他不應該涵蓋國民法官的案件嗎應該是他的射程距離沒有到國民法官的案件"},{"start":697.118,"end":723.319,"text":"好我討論到這裡就是我們其實在對每一位大法官我們都很在意的就是在上一波的大法官提名裡面我們因為那時候九名大法官七名大法官他都有參與一些Face的行動或者是他在發文他的文章論述裡面支持Face那我請問一下被提名人你支持Face嗎"},{"start":726.175,"end":750.623,"text":"我的立場是這樣我覺得廢死這件事情它不應該是非黑即白的不應該是什麼並不是非黑即白就是只能夠有單一的選擇它應該是一個過程然後也可能就是在我們大法官的解釋裡面我是問您個人您個人贊成廢死嗎 您支持廢死嗎"},{"start":752.364,"end":781.902,"text":"听我说明完就是因为我就是在大法官的宪巴里面他是认为死刑是核心的死刑是核心的然后呢我自己担任法官我的眼中只有法律跟证据如果法律跟证据是这个这个案子应该判死刑我就会本于确信来判死刑然后事实上呢在宪巴的这一个判决里面的三就是三十几个案件里面有个案件是我曾经审理过的所以"},{"start":784.164,"end":806.844,"text":"這個理論上我是應該要迴避這個案件的我覺得妳有點在迴避這個問題喔那我直接想請教妳喔妳是不是曾經捐款贊助給廢死聯盟曾經捐過兩萬塊為什麼因為就是有朋友來募款就是他們年底覺得說這個就是"},{"start":807.898,"end":821.753,"text":"有需要款項所以其實我就捐了一些所以單純只是因為有人跟你募款所以這不牽涉到你個人的立場或者是你支持Face聯盟嗎"},{"start":822.675,"end":841.363,"text":"應該是這樣說就是我的立場是法官就是根據法律來做跟證據來做判斷那事實上我也有判過死刑的案件就是依照當時的法律來做的判斷你的意思說你自己曾經判死過對不對是好那我想再請教一下"},{"start":842.623,"end":862.385,"text":"我們現在在立法院,因為這是有廣大的民眾在網路上,大概有14萬的民眾的訴求陳情,那尤其大家知道那凱開案,前一陣子的凱開案,他認為您虐幼兒致死,應該判處死刑或者無期徒刑。"},{"start":863.166,"end":886.563,"text":"那因為在行政院法務部遲遲沒有提出法務部的版本因為之前他們是反對的所以呢在立法院裡面現在國民黨的立法院黨團提出了刑法第286條的條文修正對幼童凌虐致死那麼最高可以處於死刑還或者無期徒刑你認為這樣的修正會違憲嗎"},{"start":891.681,"end":916.862,"text":"法定刑要不要定死刑這件事情是立法形成自由凌略幼童致死或者是凌略來殺害幼童或者是直接他的犯意呈現到殺人罪直接判殺人罪都有可能就是如果經過大院的討論覺得應該要法定刑要升高到死刑的話那這個部分是立法裁量自由不過呢"},{"start":917.763,"end":934.316,"text":"想要提醒就是說相關的權責機關應該要做一個比較好的這個比對就是相關的這個相類似的這個相類似的刑罰是不是他的刑度是不是可以做一個比較不要差異太大會造成這個罪行不相當"},{"start":935.701,"end":948.568,"text":"所以你个人的话认为如果我们今天修正这个条文的话你不认为是有违宪之语因为我们现在很可怕行政院只要认为我们修正的是他们没有版本的他就认为是违宪了"},{"start":949.663,"end":976.619,"text":"現在應該是說單一死刑比較難通過憲法的檢驗我剛講到286條我沒有講其他的條文所以這個部分你認為沒有違憲之餘另外請教一下我們在立法院之前曾經提出針對反對廢除死刑舉行全國性的公投但是被中選會駁回"},{"start":978.857,"end":1003.416,"text":"我想請問你因為你在你回答就是我們各黨團的這個回答問題裡面你也認為重大政策立法院是可以提出全民公投的但是這個案子竟然被中選會來駁回你認為中選會駁回立法院所提出來的反Face公投適當嗎有沒有違憲之語"},{"start":1005.718,"end":1027.944,"text":"跟委員說明 重大的議案可以進行公投這個是經過大法官已經有解釋過了然後在公投法的第二條這個部分應該是沒有問題的但是就中選會就公投的提案有沒有實質的審查權這個確實是有不同的意見你認為有實質審查權嗎立法院有實質審查權嗎 按照"},{"start":1033.049,"end":1061.981,"text":"大法官之前做出來的解釋大法官的解釋是說可以提重大公投的議案但但是議案的內容是什麼可能要就是要要符合相關的規定第二條同時有規定到一個一個問題是說出憲法規定外就是基本上公民投票可不可以投憲法的議題這可能會比較有爭議因為他有一個除外的規定那如果是已經就憲八的部分憲八因為"},{"start":1062.541,"end":1091.452,"text":"因為大法官已經做出了解釋他的效力相當於這個憲法所以就憲八就是要推翻憲八或是他詳細的內容我不是那麼清楚但是就是說如果是跟憲法的議題有關的話所以這就是我覺得被提名的人又認為整個大法官的視線是完全的無限的膨脹當時很多大法官還有大法官認為說大法官不用屈從民意"},{"start":1091.992,"end":1120.015,"text":"但是另外一方面我們賴總統也講啊對有爭議的時候要用更大的民主來解決啊其實立法院就是民意機關你民意機關定的這個提出來的公投案你還是不准那我們就用更大的民主來解決如果按照被提名所說的那麼憲判之八號他們這個已經說此席要一致決而這樣就不能夠來做全民公投的話"},{"start":1120.876,"end":1146.006,"text":"那這就是漠視更大的民主漠視民意不是嗎這不是把大法官真的難怪大法官說我可以不需要屈從民意所以大法官好大喔所以我們剛才一直在討論從我一開始就這個我們整個的諮詢我的重點就是在於我們的現在的司法到底能不能讓人民幸福我們的司法到底能不能保護好人"},{"start":1146.926,"end":1165.882,"text":"嚴懲壞人他能不能成為社會公平正義的最後一道防線如果他不行的話我剛才看到前面的幾個例子當街慘死的也好或者詐騙一家五口死掉的也好或者我們有這麼多的案件而這麼多的"},{"start":1166.582,"end":1190.189,"text":"被害者或被害家屬只是因為大法官一個偏頗然後他根本就違憲而且你說死刑本來就合憲啊死刑合憲但是你做出了這個大法官的解釋死的變成十字廢死空有其名但是沒有辦法判處死刑的時候難道人民不能夠決定嗎被提名人"},{"start":1190.589,"end":1193.152,"text":"這個你同意吧"},{"start":1212.393,"end":1230.937,"text":"這是我們司法還是要以人民為依歸怎麼讓人民去幸福讓人民得到保障得到保護才是最高指導原則吧是你同意嗎那另外這一點點是請教一下你認同中華民國憲法有權給予台澎金馬嗎這個大法國"},{"start":1269.948,"end":1269.968,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":21,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（14時39分）謝謝主席。請被提名人蘇素娥女士。"],["主席：麻煩請被提名人。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：你好。在您的自傳裡，提到您曾經擔任過司法院刑事廳廳長，也擔任過士林地方法院院長，你自己也說你審判很多案件，但是最近臺灣社會對於司法到底是不是公正？到底有沒有雙標？到底能不能保護好人？仍存在非常、非常大的疑慮。前兩天在新北市土城，一個有家暴案的男子當街殺了他的妻子跟他的小姨子，而前一天才在法院申請了保護令，大家舉國譁然，這個保護令根本沒有辦法保護被家暴的對象，而讓他當街慘死。另外在前一陣子，臺灣因為詐騙橫行，豐原一家五口被詐騙而死於非命，最後在整個調查的過程裡面，其中一個重要的涉案人以15萬元交保，所以臺灣社會就說，難道一條命只值3萬元嗎？接連的這些事件，我想請問一下被提名人，您也是相關的法院經驗非常豐富，不管是這個家暴令隔天立刻慘死街頭，或者是一家五口被詐騙，最後15萬元交保，您覺得在司法上面是不是有什麼樣的疏失？或者跟社會的期待在事實上距離太遠？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：謝謝委員提問。委員的第一個問題是關於家暴令的部分，家暴法在民國87年通過，當時整個大陸法系國家中第一個有家暴法的是中華民國，家暴法的施行，關於保護令的部分，必須有很多單位的配合，法官裁了保護令之後，譬如社政、警政都要相互的配合，現在還有社工要介入，當然這個案子很不幸，我們感到非常的心痛，但是……"],["王委員鴻薇：這個案子在司法上面有沒有疏失？或者有沒有要精進的地方？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：法官在裁保護令，經過適當的調查，如果看時間的話，是還在合理的範圍。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你認為是合理的範圍？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：就裁定保護令的部分，但是其他的……"],["王委員鴻薇：這就是我們在質疑的，司法到底能不能保護好人？每一個人都認為他在那個環節裡面做了應該做的事，但最後的結果就是悲劇發生。請問最近我們常常在討論的就是檢察官聲請羈押，到底要不要交保？交保金到底是多少？最近有非常多的討論，我剛剛提到豐原五口15萬元交保，但是另外一個案子就是因為有一個粉絲專頁的小編，他把幾個檢察官的照片秀出來做了一個哏圖，說「命債命還」，結果就羈押禁見。大家覺得詐騙造成五口之家全部死於非命，以15萬元交保，另外這個案件檢察官當然會不爽，然後就羈押禁見。","過去還有太多的案例，如挖眼12萬元交保，還有很多共諜案以20萬元交保，或者最近也發生一個案子讓臺大醫院面上無光，就是臺大的名醫涉性侵案以40萬元交保。你不能不說他的社經地位很崇高，他隨時可以離開臺灣，然後棄保潛逃，讓臺大醫院的院長都禁不住大罵這個潛逃的性侵醫生。我講到這麼多的案例，更不要講之前好幾個比如那種百萬賭王一樣交保之後棄保潛逃。","所以請問一下，我們社會都在問，法院以檢察官來說，他要開羈押庭的時候，交保或者羈押的標準到底是什麼？我們看起來是變得非常混亂啊！只要覺得有本事、有辦法的，可能幾萬甚至上百萬交保，這對他們來講是九牛一毛，交保之後他就棄保潛逃了。但是我剛剛講，比如像這個小編這樣子對檢察官，檢察官不爽，最後到了被羈押禁見的狀況，連交保都不給他交保！所以我不曉得法院系統有沒有去討論過這樣一個羈押的標準到底是什麼？交保的條件又是什麼？該交保不交保，該羈押不羈押，有沒有這樣的狀況？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：謝謝委員提問，委員提到豐原五口的案件應該還是在偵查的階段，偵查的階段它的事實是浮動的，我們不曉得檢察官手邊掌握的證據到什麼程度，所以就這個部分還沒有到院方，我們也沒有辦法做出比較真切的評論。至於其他的案件，如果檢察官聲請羈押的時候，我們法官會根據法律的規定，就相關的要件一一審核之後做最後的判斷。"],["王委員鴻薇：被提名人，您是被提名為司法院副院長，我剛才也聽到，如果你能夠當司法院副院長，你有一些想法與做法，可是老實說我們看不到你們對於司法的公平正義還有標準，目前社會大家覺得非常失望，跟期待落差很多，你們想要做出什麼樣的努力？我剛才講的，以交保這個標準，我們看得「霧煞煞」，應該去羈押的，你不羈押，該交保的，你不去交保。","另外，你也特別提到希望能夠追求審判獨立，我想請問，你知道社會民眾大部分認為我們司法沒有審判獨立，我引述一個美麗島電子報的民意調查，針對司法的部分，竟然有高達將近六成的人認為現在的賴政府是介入司法的，有將近六成、59.3%的民眾認為司法在選擇性辦案，您同不同意？您覺得民眾這樣子的看法，跟你認為的是不是有落差？而你是不是也因此希望要去爭取所謂的審判獨立？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：跟委員報告，就我的同事，在我工作的環境，我們大部分的法官都是兢兢業業、獨立審判，這個是沒有錯的。您剛剛提到交保的標準不一造成大家很混淆，事實上就是個案的情況不同，我們比較難以量化，可是我們會利用各種機會跟教育的場所，提醒法官應該注意的事項。民眾對於司法有很高的期待，這個我們了解，或許我們做得還不夠，我們會繼續努力。"],["王委員鴻薇：那現在的審判有獨立嗎？就您所了解。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：就我所了解，就我自己來講，我覺得審判獨立就是我日常生活的一部分。"],["王委員鴻薇：這是你個人，但是大部分呢？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：法官也是……"],["王委員鴻薇：不然怎麼會有這樣一個民意調查的結果呢？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：我覺得我們跟民眾之間可能還需要更多的了解跟溝通。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們每一個案子就是一次的溝通，這麼多的案子累積下來，民眾的感受就是如此。另外，今天是大法官審查，我要請問您，因為您也是推動國民法官的推手之一嘛！"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：大法官做出113年憲判字第8號解釋，對於法院要判決死刑要採取一致決，事實上引起社會極大的爭議，認為這是實質廢死，而這跟國民法官推動有沒有相扞格的地方？當時為什麼要有國民法官？就是很多人都認為有很多恐龍法官，對於社會或者民眾的期待，民眾認為司法應該要保護民眾、保護好人、嚴懲壞人，事實上那個差距太大了，所以才因此要推動國民法官。我想請問一下，如果按照大法官的解釋，整個死刑的判決必須要一致決，你認為應該是一致決就可以推翻國民法官判死嗎？如果國民法官認為他應該判處死刑，但是因為現在大法官的解釋是必須所有專業的法官要一致決，那是不是國民法官的判決就輕易地被推翻，您贊成嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：跟委員說明，113年憲判字第8號判決的聲請案件裡面，沒有一件是實行國民法官程序的……"],["王委員鴻薇：對。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：所以這個判決效力的射程距離並沒有包含到國民法官案件。國民法官案件的評議有特別規定，一般案件量刑是二分之一，如果是死刑判決是三分之二，大法官在這個判決裡面有特別提到說，如果是國民法官判決的話，也只有職業法官的3票要一致，其他部分還是維持原來三分之二的方式來進行。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以它不應該涵蓋國民法官的案件嘛？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：應該是它的射程距離沒有到國民法官的案件。"],["王委員鴻薇：我討論到這裡，其實我們對每一位大法官都很在意的，就是在上一波的大法官提名裡面，7名大法官都有參與一些廢死的行動，或者是在文章論述裡面支持廢死，我請問一下被提名人，你支持廢死嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：我的立場是這樣，就是我覺得廢死這件事情，不應該是非黑即白……"],["王委員鴻薇：不應該是什麼？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：並不是非黑即白，就是只能夠有單一的選擇，它應該是一個過程，然後也可能在我們大法官的解釋裡面，事實上是……"],["王委員鴻薇：我是問您個人，您個人贊成廢死嗎？您支持廢死嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：請委員聽我說明完。大法官113年憲判字第8號判決認為死刑是合憲的，我自己擔任法官，我的眼中只有法律跟證據，如果依據法律跟證據這個案子應該判死刑，我就會本於確信來判死刑。","事實上在113年憲判字第8號判決的三十幾個案件裡面，其中有一個案件是我曾經審理過的，理論上我是應該要迴避這個案件。"],["王委員鴻薇：我覺得你有點在迴避這個問題。那我直接請教你，你是不是曾經捐款贊助廢死聯盟？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：曾經捐過2萬塊。"],["王委員鴻薇：為什麼？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：因為就是朋友來募款，他們覺得年底有需要款項，所以我就捐了一些。"],["王委員鴻薇：單純只是因為有人跟你募款？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是，朋友來募款。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以這不牽涉到你個人的立場？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：朋友來募款。"],["王委員鴻薇：或者是你支持廢死聯盟？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：應該這樣說，我的立場是法官，根據法律跟證據來做判斷，事實上我也有判過死刑的案件，就是依照當時的法律做了判斷。"],["王委員鴻薇：你的意思是說你自己曾經判過死刑，對不對？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，我想再請教一下，我們現在在立法院，因為有廣大的民眾在網路上，大概有14萬的民眾訴求、陳情，尤其是前陣子大家知道的剴剴案，民眾認為凌虐幼童致死應該判處死刑或者無期徒刑，而行政院遲遲沒有提出法務部版本，因為之前他們是反對的，所以國民黨的立法院黨團提出了刑法第二百八十六條的條文修正，對幼童凌虐致死最高可以處死刑或者無期徒刑，你認為這樣的修正會違憲嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：法定刑要不要定死刑這件事情是立法形成自由，凌虐幼童致死，或者是凌虐殺害幼童，又或者犯意直接層升到殺人罪直接判殺人罪都有可能，如果經過大院的討論，覺得應該要將法定刑升高到死刑的話，這個部分是立法裁量自由，不過我想要提醒相關權責機關應該要做一個比較好的比對，就是相類似的刑罰，刑度是不是可以做比較，不要差異太大，否則會造成罪刑不相當。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以如果今天修正這個條文的話，你個人不認為有違憲之虞，因為我們現在很可怕，行政院只要認為我們修正的是他們沒有版本的，他就認為是違憲。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：現在應該是說單一死刑比較沒有辦法，就是比較難通過憲法的檢驗，但如果是有選擇……"],["王委員鴻薇：我剛剛講到第二百八十六條，我沒有講其他的條文。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以這個部分你認為沒有違憲之虞，好。","另外我請教一下，我們立法院之前曾經提出，針對反對廢除死刑舉行全國性的公投，但是被中選會駁回。我想請問你，因為你回答我們各黨團的問題裡面，你也認為重大政策立法院是可以提出全民公投的，但是這個案子竟然被中選會駁回，你認為中選會駁回立法院所提出來的反廢死公投適當嗎？有沒有違憲之虞？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：跟委員說明，重大的議案可以進行公投，這個大法官已經有解釋過了，然後在公投法的第二條，這個部分應該是沒有問題的。但是中選會就公投的提案有沒有實質的審查權，這個確實是有不同的意見，就是……"],["王委員鴻薇：你認為有實質審查權嗎？對立法院有實質審查權嗎？按照大法官之前做出來的解釋。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：大法官的解釋是說可以提重大議案的公投，但是議案的內容是什麼，可能也要符合相關規定。第二條同時有規定到一個問題是，除憲法規定外，基本上公民投票可不可以投憲法的議題，這個可能會比較有爭議，因為它有一個除外的規定，如果是就憲8的部分，因為大法官已經作出解釋，它的效力相當於憲法，所以要推翻憲8或是……它詳細的內容，我不是那麼清楚，但如果是跟憲法議題有關的話，是會違憲的。"],["王委員鴻薇：我覺得被提名人又認為整個大法官釋憲是完全、無限地膨脹，當時還有大法官認為法官不用屈從民意，但是另外一方面賴總統也講，對於有爭議的時候，要用更大的民主來解決啊！其實立法院就是民意機關，民意機關提出來的公投案你還是不准，那我們就用更大、更大的民主來解決。如果按照被提名人所說的，那麼憲判字第8號已經說死刑要一致決，而這樣就不能夠做全民公投的話，這就是漠視更大的民主、漠視民意，不是嗎？這不是把大法官……難怪大法官說，我可以不需要屈從民意，所以大法官好大喔！","我們剛才一直在討論，從一開始我們整個質詢，我的重點就是在於現在的司法到底能不能讓人民信服？我們的司法到底能不能保護好人、嚴懲壞人？它能不能成為社會公平正義的最後一道防線？如果它不行的話，我剛才看到前面的幾個例子，當街慘死的也好，或者詐騙一家5口死掉的也好，我們有這麼多、這麼多案件，而這麼多的被害者或被害家屬只是因為大法官一個偏頗……然後它根本就違憲，而且你說死刑本來就合憲，但是你做出了這個大法官的解釋，變成實質廢死，空有其名，但是沒有辦法判處死刑的時候，難道人民不能夠決定嗎？被提名人。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：整個司法改革最後一樣是要走到司法為民，最早的司法改革追求的是審判獨立，但是後來，我們現在主要的基調是司法為民，所以剛剛委員所提到的，就是要以人民的想法為依歸，這個我都贊成。"],["王委員鴻薇：這個你同意吧？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：我們司法還是要以人民為依歸，怎麼讓人民信服，讓人民得到保障、得到保護，才是最高指導原則吧？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：你同意嘛？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：嗯。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外請教一下，你認同中華民國憲法有權及於臺澎金馬嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：這個大法官以前有解釋過……時間到了。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒關係，Yes or No？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：政治問題是沒有辦法釋憲的……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你沒有辦法回答中華民國憲法是不是及於臺澎金馬？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：當然是及於臺澎金馬。"],["王委員鴻薇：對嘛！"],["蘇素娥被提名人：對、對，但是這個問題應該不能拿來釋憲。"],["王委員鴻薇：你不要像賴總統那種史觀喔！賴總統認為說什麼臺灣沒有參與制憲，聽起來好像一副這部憲法是不應該及於臺灣的。對，這是一個政治題，但是如果我們的大法官不能忠於憲法的話，我們會覺得有很大的質疑，好不好？謝謝。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。謝謝王鴻薇委員的詢問，也謝謝被提名人的說明，謝謝。","接下來請登記第3號張啓楷委員詢問。吳思瑤委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃國昌","王義川","許宇甄","林岱樺","王育敏","林淑芬","賴士葆","陳亭妃","王鴻薇","張啓楷","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","林月琴","吳宗憲"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1146501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146501_00004","1146501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規\n定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並\n以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案","agenda_id":"1146501_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}