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全委員會今天上午審查考試院院長被提名人周弘憲之資格及是否事任相關事項現在請被提名人周弘憲先生說明時間10分鐘"},{"start":1574.505,"end":1597.678,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生今天能以考試院第十四屆院長．被提名的身份來大院報告並接受同意權行使的審查和詢答感到非常的榮幸考試院是國家最高考試機關依憲法增修條文第6條的規定掌理考試"},{"start":1599.178,"end":1625.903,"text":"公務人員全緒、保障、補緒、退休以及公務人員任免、考積、集奉、升遷、褒獎的法治事項以及考試院主要負責國家考試和文官體制目前憲法的設計將考試權獨立於行政委員之外目的在於確保國家所辦理的公務人員選拔專機人員考試都能維持公正、公平的優良傳統"},{"start":1628.283,"end":1648.328,"text":"長久以來公平公正的國家考試已獲得大多數國人同胞的肯定和信賴它是國家治理人才的主要來源也具有促進社會階層流動的積極功能我們非常珍惜考試院前輩同仁經經業業所打下的基礎但由於社會變遷快速"},{"start":1649.775,"end":1657.42,"text":"科技入新業役．考試院新的團隊必須有一些變革和創新．才足以面對新時代的衝擊和挑戰"},{"start":1660.683,"end":1681.45,"text":"過去的國家考試跟其他一般考試一樣都是以紙筆考試為主但隨著科技的不斷發展我們已經來到了嶄新的資訊時代年輕人每天都在用電腦、手機工作國家考試的確不能再固守紙筆考試的傳統模式了"},{"start":1682.472,"end":1699.99,"text":"考試院逐步推動電腦化測驗的政策已經有大約20年目前有15項考試實施電腦化測驗這些改革並不容易而且涉及龐大的經費輸出但這必定是考試院未來必須加速推動的政策之一"},{"start":1701.54,"end":1725.425,"text":"過去公務人員的考試以專業知識的筆試成就測驗為主但世界各先進國家已經普遍採行口試等等方式來選拔人才口試可以就考生表情儀態、邏輯推理能力、口語表達能力等等加以評量選拔出符合現代政府所需的人才"},{"start":1727.506,"end":1740.273,"text":"目前各項公務員考試中．僅有少數並採考試的方式為之．這也是考試院未來必須要再努力的地方其次穩固的文官體制是我們國家．"},{"start":1741.684,"end":1768.914,"text":"安定、進步、發展的重要基石之一當我們把優秀的人才引進政府部門後也必須要有一套健全完善的制度才能留住人才我們雖然已經有很完整的官制官規但默守成規、不求新求變將無以應對劇烈的社會變化例如少子女化已經成為大家公認的國安問題"},{"start":1770.365,"end":1794.5,"text":"這是所有公司部員都必須面對的課題考試院過去在育嬰留主停薪等等事項．已經做了很多的改革．讓年輕的公務人員比較能安心地生兒育女當然這些努力仍然不過．若建構一個更友善的生養職場環境．的確是考試院未來必須要再加倍努力的地方"},{"start":1796.533,"end":1825.422,"text":"中央及地方各機關的官等、職等緣偶如何配置：是考試院長理的官職官規之一若妥善配置：一方面避免腐爛：一方又能讓各機關運作順暢：的確是一大難題尤其地方政府因為職等較低導致人才往中央升遷流動造成地方政府留不住人才的窘境"},{"start":1827.056,"end":1851.805,"text":"考試院這些年來已針對這個問題．努力地做了很多的調整．但這無疑是考試院未來．能需持續關注的議題考試院底下的國家文官學院．負責公務人員的培訓．過去這些年來．除了基本的行政管理資能．公務法律課程外．"},{"start":1852.935,"end":1874.57,"text":"也強化了人權議題以及性別平等的課程讓公務人員人權和性別意識能夠進一步的深化另外因為科技日新月異該學院也開設了數位助理、資通安全以及人工智慧等等課程鼓勵公務人員積極創新"},{"start":1876.673,"end":1901.377,"text":"加速推動政府數位轉型 這當然也都是考試院未來要持續努力的方向前一陣子 勞動部所屬的一個分屬 發生了職場霸凌不幸事件 令人心痛考試院長以公務人員保障事項 自有責任給予公務同仁一個友善安全的工作環境"},{"start":1902.677,"end":1931.352,"text":"因此我的人事案仍能獲大院審查通過．上任後．將立即走成院署相關機關．原意將職場霸凌相關措施．提升到法例未接．在廣泛徵詢各方意見後．儘速擬據公務人員保障法修正草案．經考試院院會討論後．送大院審議．以建構一個更友善．更安全的職場環境"},{"start":1934.346,"end":1957.777,"text":"大家都知道：考試委員需超出黨派以外：依據法律獨立行使職權：如果被提名人都能獲得大院審查通過：相信能夠組成一個多元又專業的新團隊：針對構想、政策、法案：反覆思辨、找出最好的模式：複製施行"},{"start":1959.796,"end":1986.139,"text":"當然除了考試院新團隊必須同心協力﹐領據共識外﹐無論辦理國家考試﹐或進行關注官規的變革﹐都必須傾聽社會各界﹐尤其是考生和公務人員的聲音﹐並與中央及地方各機關溝通協調﹐通力合作﹐才能克盡全功"},{"start":1988.82,"end":2012.949,"text":"我出生在南部的一個普通的家庭臺大法律系畢業乎一貫一厚先在臺灣土地銀行法務室工作其後執行律師業務大約13年再轉換跑道擔任臺北市政府法規委員會主任委員公務員年保障暨培訓委員會主任委員"},{"start":2014.249,"end":2043.489,"text":"行政院人事行政局局長．全系部部長．考試院副院長．在前後20年的政務職壓中．我張禮法治業務4年．人事業務16年．這些都是考試院的核心業務．現蒙總統提名為考試院院長．如信獲大院審查同意．我會很快的進入狀況．"},{"start":2045.805,"end":2071.345,"text":"並當捷徑首能、協同副院長．考試委員、祕師長及院內所有同仁依據憲法妥適擬定考圈保訓政策最後要感謝大院各位委員會心審查也懇請在行使同意權時會與支持以上報告敬請指教謝謝"},{"start":2083.8,"end":2098.111,"text":"謝謝周備提名人之說明現在進行委員詢問每一位委員詢答時間20分鐘採疑問疑答方式進行輪到詢問委員如不再採視為棄權首先請沈委員博洋詢問"},{"start":2114.503,"end":2117.204,"text":"那這個我今天因為我們這個有20分鐘所以時間也算是比較充裕一點跟平常的總諮詢比起來"},{"start":2135.151,"end":2146.004,"text":"那我今天最主要要問的就是我在上面這邊所呈現的就是我想要問的是跟憲法忠誠義務跟一些未來的期許那考用合宜其實也只是其中一小部分而已"},{"start":2149.585,"end":2169.204,"text":"好那這一次就是我們可以看到在這一個被提名的那一次的記者會剛剛這一個被提名人也有提到這專業擔任副院長近四年那裡面有推動其實非常重要的這一個相關的年金改革然後這一個全序部部長"},{"start":2170.044,"end":2178.59,"text":"保訓會主委、兼任退府基金會管理委員會等相關業務本身有律師執照,已經執業一段時間所以我認為,針對跟考試院相關的業務聽起來應該是非常熟悉才對"},{"start":2189.316,"end":2206.733,"text":"但是我們現在面臨的一個問題是這樣子我那天在這個公聽會的時候其實也有特別提到這一點因為當天有很多的專家學者針對這一次被提名人然後寫了一些意見那這裡面有一些意見都是在講一些專業的部分"},{"start":2207.353,"end":2231.803,"text":"我個人並不是那麼的認同其實理由很簡單因為相對於考試委員我們立法院最重要的就是立法委員立法委員照理說他的專業如果按照字面的意義那應該就是立法如果立法委員的專業是立法那是不是表示每一個立法委員都應該要法律系畢業如果是這個樣子的話那很多人不能當立法委員"},{"start":2232.864,"end":2252.12,"text":"那因此我認為這一些尤其有一些專家學者的意見把這個專業一直放在這個所謂的這個字面的意義我個人認為是不太足夠的我甚至認為雖然我們很多的立法委員本身不是念法律的但他們在做選區服務的時候他們有很深厚的這些實務的經驗"},{"start":2253.741,"end":2272.599,"text":"所以他在第一線的時候他反而都知道說人民需要什麼所以他去反應民意然後因此呢再藉由他好的法律幕僚然後去做好的立法這可能才是立法委員的工作所以反過來講我對於考試委員還有院長的期許也會稍稍不同"},{"start":2273.3,"end":2298.251,"text":"我個人認為專業當然是加分就是在這個考試院裡面有服務過在保訓、在權序等等之類的這個的確是至關重要但是考試院本身也要有政治相關的專業那這個政治的專業呢可能也是取決於像被提名人本身的法學的知識因為你這樣才可能會知道說到底在憲法上的義務的界限在哪裡"},{"start":2299.071,"end":2311.184,"text":"所以我一開始想要針對憲法終成義務的事情稍微做一下詢問第一個就是這一個我們這次的憲判制第9號裡面就有提到就是說"},{"start":2312.301,"end":2325.886,"text":"我們憲法機關基於這個忠誠義務不得就倒數第二行這裡不得消極不行使憲法上的提名跟同意權那我們來看一下我們整個的時間軸我們在2024年的5月31號的時候做了這個提名"},{"start":2330.587,"end":2352.556,"text":"2024年6月7號的時候就排入了院會7月5號、7月8號、7月9號、8月14其實我們都有要求必須要審這個考試院這個委員的同意案然後一直到這個8月31就卸任了嘛所以就變成有一個空窗空窗在那裡那等一下呢你會遇到其他的這些委員他們一定會問一定會說什麼"},{"start":2353.936,"end":2380.769,"text":"這個就是因為這個要釋憲嗎所以釋憲這個還沒有過所以沒有辦法排啊什麼等等之類的為什麼民進黨不排其實民進黨在很早的時候就已經要求要排審是在根本會期這個屆期還沒有制的時候呢就已經決定要趕快來排但是呢因為其他兩黨不願意所以到最後就沒有排成然後變成到最後呢這一次立法院的職權刑事法釋憲導致這樣的結果"},{"start":2383.431,"end":2395.928,"text":"這個8月31因為卸任之後形成了一個空窗導致在8月30的時候這個就是民眾黨那時候講的這個我就跳過因為這個你待會一定會遇到他們就講說什麼"},{"start":2397.45,"end":2417.968,"text":"那個不應該開臨時會啊怎麼可以在臨時會再來審啊但是那個都是因為在第一會期的時候他們拒絕了這樣的一個同意權的形式導致我們必須在協商的時候呢說我們要在臨時會來做這件事結果要求了之後呢他又不在臨時會處理這件事情最後我們就沒有辦法去討論這個同意權"},{"start":2419.349,"end":2444.135,"text":"那這整個脈絡這個被提名如果清楚的話這件事情應該很清楚就是在8月30號在屆期將至的前一天那時候呢就自己頒布了一個規定說那之後呢在緊急狀況之下可以有考選部、詮敘部、保訓會他們緊急有點像是緊急應變小組啦針對一些緊急的事項呢可以自行做決定"},{"start":2444.815,"end":2473.744,"text":"那這樣的一個決定我相信那時候當時的副院長應該也對這個決定非常的了解那我想問的就是說因為在立法院這邊沒有辦法去進行他的憲法的忠誠義務之下導致考試院產生了選缺但是考試院這樣的一個決定是否也可能會有侵害這個憲政相關的這一個疑慮還是說這些事情本來就應該由考試院來決定立法權其實無權干涉"},{"start":2476.503,"end":2496.635,"text":"有關考試院因為人事案不順利那院裡面是希望如果有緊急必要的事項的話還是必須要由院會來通過因為很多法律的規定那些事項都必須經過院會討論決議那因為這考選部長、全席部長"},{"start":2500.936,"end":2527.711,"text":"還有保訓會主委他們過去也都是出席院會的成員從民國49年19年之前他們是列席19年之後修改考試院組織法把他們改成出席所以他們過去也大概60幾年來也都是在參與考試院的重要政策"},{"start":2528.916,"end":2556.006,"text":"只是他們三個部會首長是所有考試委員還有院長、副院長其中的一部分而已那現在因為情非得已所以繼續由他們來執行他們出席院會所應付的義務和權益我相信這是一個很不得已的措施那因為過去這三位首長也都是院會成員所以應該"},{"start":2557.637,"end":2569.546,"text":"不會產生合法性的問題只是說理論上應該有院長、副院長、七位考試委員還有三位部位首長大家組成首二位"},{"start":2570.848,"end":2590.283,"text":"那他們是占十分之一那現在變成不對的情況下由他們三位部會所來決定我想這當然是在法制上應該是沒問題但是在合理性正當性來講稍微欠缺所以在過渡時期主要用這樣一個變通方式但"},{"start":2591.084,"end":2618.324,"text":"他們的這些決定到考試院第十四屆院長、副院長、考試委員上任以後的政治宴會他們必須這些議案通過議案都必須經過十四屆的追認才會達成最後的效果謝謝貝提名人的答案我認為這個答案非常的合宜第一個就是我們剛剛有提到其實在修法之後其實他們都是要出席的他們不是列席"},{"start":2618.891,"end":2648.177,"text":"所以當然他們在決定的時候一直以來他們都是有參與的但是因為這一次立法院沒有去行使同意權的一個狀況之下因為他們本來就是參與的其中一員所以讓他們繼續可以來做相關的決定但是在合理性上面的確因為畢竟這是一個緊急過渡狀況它不應該是常態那但是這邊就衍生了一個問題就是照理說我們是尊重立法院院會最後的同意嘛最後的決定嘛"},{"start":2648.797,"end":2676.191,"text":"但如果他們用修法的方式要來強迫考試院的組織產生變革呢我舉這樣的例子是因為這已經發生了大概兩次了第一次當然就是在5月的時候這個非常重要的這個國會擴權、國會濫權的法案這個法案呢其實實質在侵害行政權嘛第二次就是最近呢即將要產生爭議的憲法訴訟法他們打算直接去動這個大法官的元額"},{"start":2677.211,"end":2698.472,"text":"用現有總額直接來取代現在的規定意思就變成說在很多的這個大法官會議裡面他必須要是十個人出席才有辦法來做決定所以在這樣的狀況之下呢立法院已經用他們院會的權力實質的擴張到其他院的權力導致其他院的權力可能會沒辦法行使"},{"start":2699.373,"end":2718.593,"text":"剛剛提到一個非常重要的點就是不管是考選部、全序等等之類的他們因為在改成初期之後他們實質的都已經在參與考試院、考試委員、院長、副院長相關的會議還有相關的決定這個是現在正在進行式但是呢像這一個"},{"start":2719.685,"end":2740.117,"text":"這個是前陣子這一個被我認為就是專門在提違憲法案的幾位委員他們提了這一個法案他們裡面提了幾個重點第一個重點就是在前沿的這一個部分我覺得上面可能不清楚可能看下面那個這個配題裡面你前面的那個電腦螢幕可能會比較清楚它在左邊這邊的這一個"},{"start":2742.83,"end":2768.033,"text":"第三行開始他說考試委員共同行使考選部全訓部保訓會作為考試院的下級機關其主管應列席院會配合協助考試委員行使職權然後考試院會的會議規則再送立法院備查也就是說剛剛本來我們說我們讓這些人出席參與會議"},{"start":2769.994,"end":2794.1,"text":"現在他又要把他降級了他要把他又變成以前舊法的規定就是所謂的列席規定並且說考試院以後的會議規則考試院訂了以後由立法院來被查這個對我來講會有一定的政治風險這也是為什麼我剛剛在一開始的時候提到雖然我相信被提名人在考試院相關的專業還有法律的專業"},{"start":2795.14,"end":2819.297,"text":"但接下來這幾年我們不斷的會遇到的可能最重要的已經不是考試本身的業務而是憲政的危機院跟院之間的本來應該要互相尊重的這個憲政機制而這個憲政機制很有可能現在會越來越來越模糊然後變得不復存在所以這時候這位院長作為副院長"},{"start":2820.057,"end":2839.929,"text":"在對外的時候反而必須要處理這種非常棘手的政治問題所以這邊我認為這個問題其實不好解這個已經復違了他已經到委員會已經說要來審這個法案只是現在還沒有排審而已但這一個如果未來它發生了那考試院會用什麼樣的態度來面對這樣的一個修法當然大院對考試院組織法任何的修正我們都會尊重"},{"start":2848.612,"end":2872.62,"text":"但是大家也要考慮到為什麼考選部長、全席部長和保新會主委會出席宴會是因為考試院負責重大政策沒有錯政策方向沒錯但是實際上的一些政策的細節還有執行都是部會在做所以能夠由三個部會首長來出席宴會表示意見"},{"start":2874.401,"end":2901.511,"text":"也是會使所謂的議案的決定會比較周延那當然考試院院會是以考試院為主題沒錯但也不是說考試委員以外的人都不能參與院會因為照憲法的規定考試院院長和副院長也不是考試委員這跟監察院、大法官、執法院是不一樣的那"},{"start":2902.996,"end":2930.747,"text":"實際上如果有考試院不具考試委員的身份的院長、副院長還有三個部會首長來參加的話加起來也是五個人那現在組織法規定考試委員是七到九人所以至少有七人到九人都會超過所謂沒有具有考試委員身份的五個人所以基本上這樣一個結果"},{"start":2932.486,"end":2952.711,"text":"我們認為跟憲法也不是有太多的違背因為憲法對考試院、院會的組成並沒有規定不像行政院,行政院院會成員在憲法裡面是有規定的所以當然這些"},{"start":2953.697,"end":2973.335,"text":"我們尊重大院的決定但是也希望大院能夠注意到剛我講的這些問題謝謝因為這個之後如果副委員會假設那時候考試委員已經誕生了我們當然是希望能夠順利的進行那這個案子如果副委的時候到時候可能就會請考試院"},{"start":2974.036,"end":2976.258,"text":"我相信監察院相關的法案我們這邊也會有立委要提出"},{"start":3000.96,"end":3027.497,"text":"到最後都會是類似像這樣的規定他有可能會去動那個員額他可能去動出席的人數他可能去決定說到底誰能從來開會誰才不能夠來開會這個時候如果考試院的一些核心業務被侵蝕的時候在政治上我認為考試院院長必須要有一個非常強烈的態度讓他們知道我們手的這個憤記在哪裡這是我這一次非常特別想要提醒的一件事謝謝"},{"start":3029.178,"end":3051.01,"text":"那接下來這個呢這邊呢其實我們也有做一些整理但是呢這就是待會兒你可能也會遇到就是呢這一次的憲判制其實有提到在人事同意權這件事情上面因為有一些呢它會有個別的黨團有立法院這邊不同的黨團去寄出一些書面的問卷那希望被提名的人能夠回覆"},{"start":3051.73,"end":3067.481,"text":"但是呢按照大法官解釋我們可以看到他說呢立法院各當團或最後一段或個別立法委員尚不得進行向被提名人提出書面問題直接要求答覆與此前提之下本項規定始不申提出憲法的問題"},{"start":3068.522,"end":3084.535,"text":"那我認為因為我們立法院的主體其實是院會是整體大家113位委員那針對這個整個113位我們共同做決定我們雖然個別在詢問但到最後是用表決的方式來行使我們的同意權"},{"start":3086.517,"end":3101.184,"text":"黨團並不是立法院直接的對外的象徵立法院本身才是象徵所以當黨團個別來做這樣的一個要求的時候當然我們在個別道德義務上面有些人可能會覺得說反正他來問我就來回答"},{"start":3101.804,"end":3116.205,"text":"但我覺得在憲政分際上面其實我們還是可以去堅守我們就是由立法院整體透過現在的這樣的一個議事規則來做詢問並且答覆20分鐘的時間其實說真的都算完整可以回答非常多的問題"},{"start":3117.106,"end":3138.333,"text":"那這個個別問卷的行使呢貝提名人自己雖然有他自我的一個決定但也希望能夠互相提醒一下至少以現在的憲判制來說他並不是一個直接必須當然要去這個回答的一個義務那最後還有一點點時間我是想要問就是因為在這一個書面報告裡面你有提到幾個你未來的這個方向"},{"start":3139.333,"end":3160.755,"text":"裡面包含數位的轉型、電腦化的測驗、多元取材等等之類的有兩個小地方我想問我先問最後一個就是這個文官培訓因為我知道文官學院其實負有一定的角色我以前也想去文官學院幫忙上課但我們現在這個人事總署他們自己也有這個公務員的這個培訓中心"},{"start":3163.117,"end":3183.167,"text":"這兩個當然我們在形式上會做一些切割哪一些在文官學院哪一些在公務員員訓練中心但問題就出在說這樣的一個方式它只是形式上我們做分類但如果對公務員本身來講如果他想要做進修這兩個單位到底彼此之間應該要怎麼分工合作"},{"start":3183.627,"end":3200.142,"text":"才會對我們的這一種對於後來的這些訓練未來他們的方向會是最好的不知道院長有什麼樣的這個被提名人有什麼樣的想法因為照訓練進行法的規定考試院就保訓會還有國家公關實驗室負責考試錄取人員訓練升官等訓練"},{"start":3205.148,"end":3220.334,"text":"行政中立訓練以及高階公務人員發展性的訓練那一般的在職訓練是由人事總署底下的學院來負責所以分工是很清楚一個是在職"},{"start":3223.501,"end":3248.218,"text":"訓練一個是有關考試錄取還有要升官等因為這考試錄取和升官等這些都是考試院的職責那行政中立由考試院來做會比較好因為行政中立如果由行政院做的話可能人家會質疑比較不會客觀所以由考試院來做比較好那另外就是高階公務人員發展性的訓練那這些"},{"start":3250.404,"end":3271.831,"text":"都是考試院的主席所以這樣分一般公園也不會混淆所以行政中立會是考試院現在非常重要的一個方向因為有一些事情他不適合由行政院自己來做他在升遷的部分留在考試院的部分讓考試院針對升遷相關的不管是訓練、內容的教育這個由考試院來負責"},{"start":3273.892,"end":3290.087,"text":"那接下來還有另外一個因為時間的因素可能我只能再問一個問題就是績效考核制度這一次呢因為在這個勞動部的事件裡面我們可以看到呢當然在勞動部的這次事件因為很快的就把這個考機打出來了那考機當然有一般的這個"},{"start":3291.128,"end":3318.278,"text":"這是年終考機然後還有這個專案的考機那很多人就會去質疑想說為什麼這一次會根據這個專案的考機針對這個謝信的分署長然後給他記了兩大過等等之類的那像這種專案考機他什麼時候應該出現那他會不會有一些政治的判斷這個制度本身的設計合不合理備題你們可能簡短的回答就可以了因為時間到了"},{"start":3320.077,"end":3320.257,"text":"好,謝謝沈委員"},{"start":3354.437,"end":3372.608,"text":"下一位我們請葉元之委員詢問我們請這個院長候選人,謝謝我們請這週被提名人"},{"start":3386.564,"end":3414.213,"text":"好 葉文彥早多謝你早我想請教一下你對於國民黨提出來的那個年改的法案瞭解嗎是大致瞭解大致瞭解請問一下有要讓有要恢復18%嗎18%應該是你要想喔你當你要做一個被提名人你現在你對於現在我們提出來的這個法案完全沒有瞭解"},{"start":3416.497,"end":3442.364,"text":"有沒有要恢復18%?以現在的版本有沒有要恢復18%?有沒有要恢復18%?沒有嘛我跟你講沒有好不好沒有你現在知道沒有在前幾個月那時候國民黨在提年金改革的法案的時候很多民進黨的人就一直說國民黨的年改就是要恢復18%"},{"start":3443.797,"end":3463.892,"text":"沒有沒有你應該沒有印象看到這個東西嘛沒有嘛照條文看起來是沒有沒有嘛對啦那現在為什麼要這個年改要再修正呢我想先跟你請教一下當時好像在年改的過程當中你也有扮演很關鍵角色嘛你們當時是為什麼要年改是為什麼"},{"start":3466.004,"end":3480.104,"text":"主要原因因為總統府組成國家年金改革委員會那其中全系部是機關的代表對對對我知道我知道我當然知道是總統府組成的啦所以我只是問說當時你們的立場是什麼"},{"start":3483.748,"end":3504.273,"text":"當時因為我們是參與年金改革委員會那你因為考試院考試院算是公務人員的任用保障機關那你也在考試院任職過嘛理論上你應該很了解公務人員的心態跟想法那你知道他們反年改的原因是什麼其實不完全是因為錢除了錢之外還有什麼原因你知道嗎"},{"start":3507.833,"end":3537.071,"text":"你曾經做過考試院一定跟很多公務人員溝通過嘛那一般的公務人員他們反對年改最主要的原因是什麼除了錢之外他們是認為法律不應該溯及計畫還有勒那應該維護信賴保護維護信賴保護原則嘛那你認同嗎你認同法律應該維護信賴保障原則嗎原則上當然信賴保護原則應該普遍應該要適用但是因為在特殊的情況下那有其他的"},{"start":3538.422,"end":3548.427,"text":"更大的法益的情形更大的法益那接下來就要我等一下再跟你討論一下有沒有更大的法益啊或者這個法益有沒有其他方式可以解決啊但我現在就跟你討論信賴保護原則"},{"start":3550.27,"end":3578.82,"text":"今天那麼多的公務人員他們一開始為什麼會願意為國家效力很多過去公務人員都是非常優秀的因為他們寧可他們現在可能選擇放棄企業高薪到公家機關來上班他可能在企業可以賺更多那為什麼可以來國家效力第一個想為國家做事嘛第二個也是國家給他一個承諾告訴他說你退休之後你這個保障可以穩定對吧這是當初國家跟他講的嘛"},{"start":3579.46,"end":3604.815,"text":"所以他可能放棄企業高薪來國家上班啊沒錯吧是不是沒有我問你問題你就回答就好對是不是嘛是當然是嘛對嘛好啊那現在我們的政府可以說我為了更大的法益所以不好意思當初國家給你的承諾我都不要做到因為我有更大的法益所以你就彼此摸一摸啦而且這個法益還是溯及既往可以這樣子嗎"},{"start":3606.172,"end":3625.255,"text":"但是這部分信賴保護還有受理基本部分因為大法官已經作出那個決議那我們當然要遵守我現在是問您的態度嘛因為接下來按照你給我們黨團的回函你的意思是說年金有可能還會繼續用完嘛"},{"start":3625.635,"end":3652.344,"text":"所以我現在在問你的態度嘛你到時候會不會又忽然間說我又要年改了因為我為了更大的法益所以我要年改我又要去砍大家的退休金我現在跟我等一下問的問題都有關係嘛所以先不用遮擋反正問你問你都是有原因的第二個齁那個周先生你覺得年金改革的錢可以用喊價的嗎可以嗎當時的年金改革的過程有沒有用喊價的有沒有因為"},{"start":3654.428,"end":3670.874,"text":"到底要怎麼改那當然是要由各方大家是但是當時的民進黨民進黨黨團的幹部段宜康他那時候怎麼罵公務人員的你還記得嗎他說公務人員你們吵得越兇我砍得越兇你記得這句話嗎"},{"start":3672.079,"end":3697.494,"text":"你記得嗎所以現在的年金改革被砍成這樣是因為那個時候購物人員喊很兇的原因所以年金改革是用喊價的是這樣子的原因情緒花的亂砍當時的執政黨就是這樣子搞的所以如果說年金改革有過程當中這樣的不正當、不正義搞民粹那你覺得年金改革不需要做適當修正嗎你覺得你的態度"},{"start":3702.375,"end":3716.129,"text":"剛有提到目前是沒有守衛在年金改革的綜合規劃現在我們國民黨的黨團有提案嘛我們有一個版本等一下我會跟你討論嘛我只是跟你講說那個時候年金改革的過程就是很粗暴嘛"},{"start":3717.452,"end":3738.407,"text":"就是用喊的嘛就是不把公務人員不把他們對於國家的奉獻當一回事嘛對他們不尊重嘛所以說他們為他們自己的權益出來捍衛覺得國家怎麼可以違反心理保護原則怎麼可以這樣亂砍結果民進黨立委是說你們喊得越大聲我砍越多是這樣子粗暴的過程"},{"start":3739.397,"end":3758.365,"text":"所以本來年金改革就有檢討的必要嘛那我現在先問你一個比較直接的問題啦因為剛剛我有講您說年金改革即便是已經砍了那麼多退休人員退休金那錢還是有用完的可能性所以你講這句話的意思是不是之後有可能還要繼續砍人家退休金有可能嗎"},{"start":3759.688,"end":3788.308,"text":"對 因為要使財務健全有很多的方式所以只要財務不健全的情況之下你還是會考慮砍公務人員退休金是這個意思嗎 或者我有理解錯誤嗎目前沒有這方面的規劃目前沒有嘛 對不對所以您講的話就證明了財務用完跟砍退休金兩者沒有必然的關係嘛那我想問你接下來如果退休金用完的話考試院會建議用什麼方式讓這個基金"},{"start":3789.148,"end":3814.912,"text":"保持水位你們的建議方式是什麼當然我們是希望能夠提高績效那另外就是政府會陸續撥補照新的退屋法的92條規定這個水庫的大缺口政府會分人來撥補所以這樣會屬基金的財務會比較健全"},{"start":3815.532,"end":3838.114,"text":"好 謝謝你 你告訴我們一個大實話就是當時我們的基金財務不健全跟公務人員你的多跟少沒有直接很必然關係啦主要就是基金的績效不好嘛有沒有退休的公務人員跟我講啊他說如果當時的政府那個基金的績效跟國際一樣水準的話我們的基金水位可以兩倍啦"},{"start":3838.942,"end":3863.174,"text":"所以你自己的經營的績效不好結果你把答應給別人的砍掉這個手段有正當嗎所以我剛剛問那個周先生、周提名人的講法就是說你講說今天政府應該要保障信賴保護原則應該要給人家他們應該的東西可是為了更高的法益所以我必須要砍但問題是那個更高的法益它的根屬性是真的是因為這個關係嗎還是因為基金的經營成效不好"},{"start":3866.516,"end":3891.09,"text":"所以政府不是去砍人家的退休金就像你講的現在有可能基金的水位下降但是我們要透過績效的改善或者政府撥補的方式來解決所以我覺得你們過去砍年金真的是很粗暴再來我們現在每一年還是每一年有給退休的這些公教人員我們有給他"},{"start":3892.335,"end":3915.524,"text":"有漲嘛對不對 按照物價所得CTI有漲對不對照物價指數那111年調漲2%那最近調漲4%110年2% 最近4%嘛對不對 按照物價指數嘛對 參考物價指數問題是我們現在的年改啊一年要減他們所得替代率1.5%對吧"},{"start":3918.735,"end":3942.925,"text":"一年現在是降1.5條漲的話要看物價指數所以實際上你現在給他漲的部分大概每一年扣1.5其實就抵銷了嘛對不對他們並沒有因為物價指數上漲而領到比較多因為彼此抵銷了嘛沒錯吧"},{"start":3944.765,"end":3973.243,"text":"這是兩件事我知道是兩件事啦但是對他們領到的每個月匯到銀行戶頭是統一件事嘛所以就抵銷了嘛所以實際上他們領的是越來越少啦而且還有物價通膨的關係嘛所以我就不意思調降到118年就不會再調降所以118年以後如果照物價指數調整的部分就沒有剛業委所"},{"start":3974.85,"end":3982.184,"text":"主委的會有抵消的問題那請問一下你會支持國民黨你覺得國民黨提的版本你會支持嗎"},{"start":3983.734,"end":4011.122,"text":"這部分涉及整個制度的變革我想應該要多聽社會各界的對你要表達你的立場因為現在您在這邊接受我們的質詢所以你要表達立場如果對的事情就要堅持尤其是考試院是掌管就是公務員權益的那退休公務員被這樣欺負我剛剛跟你溝通過程當中我認為說其實你骨子裡面我解讀可能也不是很認同當時這麼粗暴的年金改革的過程"},{"start":4013.183,"end":4033.899,"text":"現在有一個補救的方法他也不是說第一個也沒有要恢復18%第二個也沒有要我們當然是希望能夠信賴保護原則的基礎底下應該是當初承諾人家什麼就要給人家什麼現在也沒有要這樣了現在只是說退而求其次先止血因為現在公務人員所得替代率每年要減1.5%嘛我們現在說先凍結先做一個整體的檢討嘛"},{"start":4038.402,"end":4064.815,"text":"先凍結整體的想法就不要每年扣1.5先檢討看看從過去到現在到未來我們政府到底要怎麼做一方面可以維持心態保障原則另外一方面公衛員可以得到保障然後國家法益也可以保障就是您支不支持可以先凍結然後做一個整體的檢討方案再來考慮未來的年金要怎麼繼續改革怎麼繼續您支持嗎"},{"start":4065.933,"end":4087.563,"text":"因為首都替代率如果沒有繼續調降的話就會產生一數款會減少因為年金改革是將所有你說什麼會減少一數款也就是說年金改革節省的經費照法律規定都全部要撥到這個水庫裡面那如果你一數款也就是說節省的費用越多那當然撥到這個水庫的"},{"start":4091.276,"end":4115.384,"text":"當然啦當然你剛剛講啦我們也可以透過基金的經營成效啊來改善啊你現在你心裡想著說反正我只要砍公務人員就有錢進來了我就不會思考說我怎麼找更好的團隊來經營這個基金嘛如果說今天你不要你沒有辦法透過砍公務人員你就可以直接找一個好的團隊讓基金的水位提高甚至你們現在只有2%嘛未來如果4%、8%、10%"},{"start":4117.932,"end":4136.344,"text":"那搞不好根本就不用砍公務人員的退休金啊凍結也沒關係啊補給他也沒關係啊現在是心態問題嘛你如果想著說唯一的挹注基金的水位的方式只有砍公務人員退休金的話那當然你就想的只有這個方法啊你往哪個方向想你就會做到什麼樣的方向嘛"},{"start":4137.659,"end":4147.285,"text":"因為今天我時間也有限你有沒有支持我們現在只是問立場跟態度你有沒有支持說可以凍結先凍結"},{"start":4149.636,"end":4171.216,"text":"我想因為這剛講涉及到藝術款的減少那會對整個基金的財務產生很大的影響第二個對警消警消現在大家認為警消的工作非常的辛苦應該要比照軍人嘛因為他們的工作跟一般人是不太一樣有時候要長時間待命執勤而且工作也非常有風險"},{"start":4172.315,"end":4200.807,"text":"那平常他們雖然不是說真的到戰場上面去打仗可是跟很多壞人在這個對決的過程當中也其實生命也遭到了很大的威脅那我們現在希望說他可以訂定特別的所得替代率上限90%那這個部分這個被庭銀門你這邊支持嗎對那照顧警消同仁那都是我們公部門必須要做的"},{"start":4201.428,"end":4204.09,"text":"Iwan NawiIwan Nawi"},{"start":4218.178,"end":4243.473,"text":"警消人員他們在平時的待遇各方面其實已經比公務人員稍微優厚一點那另外他們住院退休以及借領退休的年齡也都降低對他們來講也是沒關係所以你不支持齁你不支持那個你剛剛提到就是說繳的錢什麼大家要一樣但是為什麼領的不一樣齁其實之前的公務人員很多要繳多少錢也是政府跟他說要繳多少錢啊他們也沒有什麼智慧的餘地啊"},{"start":4244.173,"end":4252.912,"text":"但是他繳了他按照政府講的繳那個錢之後欸忽然間就跟你講說不好意思我答應要給你的退休金我不給你了之前公務人員就是這樣"},{"start":4253.769,"end":4273.119,"text":"所以他繳的錢真的可以得到什麼保障嗎也未必啦看政府對他們的態度是怎樣第三個我跟請教一下考試院應該要保障公務人員嘛特別是公務人員福利甚至於他在這個職場上面有沒有得到公平正義的對待我覺得這也是考試院應該要負責的項目"},{"start":4275.84,"end":4293.207,"text":"前一陣子出現勞動部的霸凌事件導致一個不幸的無性工程師的輕生那整個過程當中凸顯著官僚系統官官相護這個你應該知道吧請教一下考試院在這樣的過程當中可以扮演怎樣的角色"},{"start":4294.568,"end":4317.855,"text":"因為這部分是涉及到公務員執行職務的安全問題那這部分我剛剛在口頭報告裡面有說這是考試院負責的保障事項那我們希望將現在這些相關的措施現在都是屬於內部的行政規則我們希望把它提高到法律的位階這樣對公務員人是比較有保障"},{"start":4318.94,"end":4347.031,"text":"意思是說立法以後如果出現這個狀況的話可以怎樣就照法律來處理現在就是照人事行政總署可不可以具體講一下如果立法的方向是什麼立法方向我們是認為應該將職場霸凌這些相關事項規定在公務員的保障法那第19條它現在目前是主規定公務員執行職務安全應與保障那機關應提供"},{"start":4349.09,"end":4367.847,"text":"安全衛生的防護辦法那這樣一個宣示性的條文我們覺得不夠那應該將這個條文擴充那把有關職場霸凌的相關事項把它規範進去那各機關以及公務人員就比較有可能來遵循那另外如果沒有遵循會怎樣"},{"start":4369.11,"end":4392.24,"text":"沒有遵循的話會怎麼樣?沒有遵循的話那當然會產生有行政責任等等行政責任好我們來看一下現在公務人員霸凌的程序是這樣喔如果以那個勞動部的例子來講他如果說在職場上接受霸凌的話他一開始應該是跟原機關申訴嘛對不對那什麼時候會到考試院呢?"},{"start":4393.291,"end":4407.55,"text":"應該是到最後救濟程序的時候才會到考試院他如果不服氣不服氣才能夠到那邊嗎換言之如果我說這個案子一直在勞動部裡面一直出不去的話一直沒有結論的話他根本就沒有到考試院的可能性嘛對吧對不對在現行的狀況下"},{"start":4413.117,"end":4442.524,"text":"就比如說這一次勞動部的案子啊因為一直吃案啊表面上有調查啊但調查不了了之啊一直沒有做出一個處分出來啊所以沒有處分就沒有可能到考試院嘛對吧對 應該如果他們認為機關的那現在問題就來了按照現在勞動部這個案例啊考試院是不會知道這個事情為什麼 因為他沒有一個處分出來嘛整個案子被吃掉了嘛"},{"start":4444.042,"end":4468.981,"text":"所以我這邊建議啦我不知道說那個被提名人這邊能不能夠那個態度是什麼我覺得考試院應該主動出席啦考試院現在就是被認為說跟人事行政總署疊窗架屋啊兩個都做的事情是一模一樣很多人都在講說包括人事行政總署內部的人就說他們已經決定了一個事情然後還要去會嫌考試院同一個文同樣一件事兩邊會來會去但是同樣的結果"},{"start":4471.563,"end":4491.09,"text":"疊床架屋完全說沒有彰顯自己的功能而且現在都是執政黨嘛人事行政總署、行政院長是民進黨的考試...欸您現在還有民進黨籍嗎?欸...已經註銷了註銷了齁?但是您也是民進黨提名的嘛反正你們都是一樣的嘛考試院現在跟行政機關感覺也都很類似啊"},{"start":4492.262,"end":4506.517,"text":"結婚嫁屋但是即便在這種情況之下我覺得你也可以做一件事情你可以扮演行政機關的外部的調查單位嘛現在公務人員如果有比如說是身心障礙缺的話你們是不是會有定期的訪視計畫對不對有嗎有定期的訪視計畫嘛對不對"},{"start":4513.191,"end":4536.133,"text":"有嗎應該是人事總處他們在負責好像考試院也有我了解考試院也有考試院也會去訪視一下看看他在公共機關的適應狀況那是各機關都要做的對嘛那所以其實我覺得考試院如果你站在這種角度的話你不應該是被動的等他處分出來勝訴你平常你就可以去各機關看一下"},{"start":4537.094,"end":4560.857,"text":"那個這邊有沒有霸凌行為啊 跟大家聊一聊啊 主動出擊嘛現在行政機關霸凌狀況非常嚴重除了勞動部之外 海科館、外交部、機關署各機關都有 地方政府也有 考試院不覺得應該要出去看一看嗎還是說躲在院裡面 等人家來申訴 最好不要申訴你不要來申訴我就沒事做 我就不用做事你贊不贊同我的說法"},{"start":4562.31,"end":4590.432,"text":"考試院應該保訓會應該要更關心公務人員的在職場的那請問一下因為考試院被大家認為說在這一塊做得不夠所以公務人員想要組公會希望能夠有協調權希望有自己主張救濟權您支持嗎公務人員組公會他們也不會主張罷工權那您支持嗎對組公會部分因為牽涉的問題比較大因為公務人員在執行公權利"},{"start":4603.134,"end":4608.586,"text":"好謝謝葉委員謝謝被提名的人下一位我們請黃國昌委員詢問"},{"start":4633.038,"end":4658.437,"text":"謝謝副院長 是不是麻煩有請周備提名人我們請備提名人周弘憲王院長周備提名人好首先有一些基本定位的問題請教你的看法你認為考試院的存在是考試公平以及文官中立的必要條件"},{"start":4661.5,"end":4686.381,"text":"當然如果國家考試由考試院來主辦這部分因為目前已經取得國連同胞比較大的信賴和肯定這個題目其實不困難啦考試院的存在是不是考試公平跟文官中立的必要條件是不是 是嗎"},{"start":4686.957,"end":4703.122,"text":"那不一定一定要設在考試院只是說設在考試院讓原名所以就有下一個問題嘛你贊不贊成考試院的職權並入行政院你贊不贊成因為這個涉及修憲這個當然是涉及修憲嘛那你個人贊不贊成"},{"start":4705.914,"end":4724.961,"text":"目前考試院跟行政院在有關人事業務方面依照五權憲法的規定目前運作...對不起喔那個被提名其實我蠻尊敬你的啦那我希望我的問題你就率直的回答你過去的主張是什麼其實大家心裡都很清楚"},{"start":4726.018,"end":4738.158,"text":"那今天有機會當這個位置考試院要不要廢除當然是立法院我們必須要按照修憲的程序來進行嘛但我只想知道說就你個人的信念"},{"start":4739.073,"end":4756.531,"text":"對於整個國家制度的運作你的想法有沒有改變因為到時候立法委員我們在啟動或是要推動整個修憲程序的時候還是會請教考試院的意見嘛您有一天如果有幸當了考試院院長你會表達任何看法嗎當然因為要"},{"start":4760.455,"end":4786.67,"text":"考試院要表達任何看法也都必須要徵詢考試委員當然嘛 所以我就先請教你如果有機會當考試院院長的時候你贊不贊成考試院併入行政院對 如果有這樣的擬議然後大家有共識那當然我們也會尊重所以你個人沒有立場過去我也對這部分也沒有特別去思考那因為現在在"},{"start":4787.91,"end":4811.265,"text":"被提名人我提醒你一下其實這件事情你思考過啊2020年的時候你跟現在副院長的被提名人許舒翔事實上你們有發表聯合聲明啊強調幾件事啊第一個有關於文官的中立、考試的公平考試院的存在不是必要條件白紙黑字啊你們那時候的聯合聲明我全部都拜讀過啦"},{"start":4812.315,"end":4839.796,"text":"那個時候的聯合聲明也很大方的講現在社會上面多數的意見多數的黨派的看法就是考試院要必入行政院監察院要必入立法院採取三權分立這是你2020年那個時候的主張我不曉得你今天還記不記得但是我只想提醒被提名人我只想提醒被提名人對我們國家目前的憲政制度"},{"start":4840.655,"end":4855.226,"text":"當考試權跟行政權分裂的時候會產生什麼樣子的問題我覺得在考試院的立場上面感受要很深刻我為什麼說感受要很深刻我等一下馬上就會進入今天實質的主題"},{"start":4856.067,"end":4881.284,"text":"因為我不喜歡談抽象的問題抽象的價值您贊成三權分立還是五權分立從你過去個人的言行我相信社會大眾有一個心理的評價在那在這邊我也不是在做政治考核我們要解決問題我先帶您看前院的院長黃榮春他說他有末代考試院長的心理準備"},{"start":4882.239,"end":4891.552,"text":"所以他覺得他的責任更加重大您覺得他在擔任院長您在擔任副院長的期間當中有履行你們應該履行的責任嗎"},{"start":4893.318,"end":4911.511,"text":"對 因為我們都是照憲法的規定來處理當然啊 除了憲法的規定以外憲法把考試院所有的職權在你們的職長之下嘛我的問題重點是你們有沒有把事情做好您覺得在上一任的考試院院長跟副院長的表現您個人評分的話會打幾分"},{"start":4915.106,"end":4941.773,"text":"評論應該要由社會來不好意思自己打分數嘛這個我尊重來我們接下來進入具體的問題高雄委員請教你啊我們目前有員工職場霸凌防治處理流程啊請問這個流程是誰頒訂的人事行政總署那請問有關於公務員的保障是誰的職長保障事項那當然是考試院也要負一部分的責任"},{"start":4942.751,"end":4971.65,"text":"公務員的保障按照您剛剛所講的在我們的憲法裡面不就是規定在考試院的權責嗎那我現在的問題就來了如果公務員的保障是考試院的權責為什麼這個職場霸凌防治處理流程是由我們的行政院人事總署在定考試院在哪裡針對有關於防治職場霸凌這件事情我們的考試院到目前為止制定了什麼辦法"},{"start":4974.295,"end":5000.68,"text":"我們目前是照公務員保障法第19條我知道公務員保障法第19條的規定我很清楚那個法律規定在那裡但是我現在的問題是請問考試院做了什麼事情我們有公務員安全衛生防護辦法安慰辦法有辦法處理霸凌的事情嗎因為這霸凌事件其實也是安全的一部分"},{"start":5001.636,"end":5030.816,"text":"所以我現在請教你安慰辦法有辦法處理霸凌的事情嗎如果有辦法處理霸凌的事情的話那我問題就來啦那人種具制定這個職場霸凌防治處理原則我第一個問題是為什麼是人事總處做我第二個問題是考試院在哪裡第三個問題是你剛提到的安慰辦法我現在具體的請教安慰辦法現行的規範有辦法處理職場霸凌的事情嗎"},{"start":5032.077,"end":5058.468,"text":"因為安慰辦法裡面就有關衛生和安全那安全部分當然也包括職場的霸凌的部分所以呢按照目前安慰辦法的規定被霸凌的公務員應該採行什麼措施依照安慰辦法的規定現行的公務員可以做什麼他如果有這方面的問題那當然可以向他們的服務機關來申訴這個規定在安慰辦法裡面嗎你確定嗎"},{"start":5062.864,"end":5085.376,"text":"你確定嗎這應該一般就是這樣處理一般就是這樣處理現在有這樣處理嗎現在針對有關於勞動部的案件勞動部在處理這件事情的時候請問是依照人總所公布的這個職場大連處理程序還是按照你剛剛所講的考試院保訓會所定的安慰辦法"},{"start":5086.881,"end":5115.694,"text":"這部分我不是很清楚他們怎麼...欸你怎麼不會不是很清楚這公務員保障欸規定在公務員保障法裡面欸公務員保障法、權責機關、母法是考試院欸是保訓會欸您作為考試院院長的被提名人這一件事情我可能拜託被提名人啊你們要多去什麼多去仔細的思考考試院要反省的第一件事情是什麼"},{"start":5116.685,"end":5142.556,"text":"為什麼這個辦法是人總訂的全部的人都在問啊如果公務員的保障是考試院的執掌怎麼會行政院的人總訂這個辦法第二個安慰辦法現在有辦法處理這個問題嗎來我們再進一步往下看人事總署這個員工職場拜臨防治與處理的原則跟安慰辦法有什麼關係"},{"start":5145.029,"end":5150.091,"text":"他跟安慰辦法的法律位階關係是什麼?您是法律員出身,這個問題應該不困難對,他跟安慰辦法的關係是什麼?"},{"start":5168.439,"end":5175.893,"text":"考試院有一套安慰辦法嘛行政院人事總署有一個職場霸凌的防治處理原則嘛這兩個法規的關係是什麼"},{"start":5179.652,"end":5207.634,"text":"這兩個法規的關係是什麼因為人事行政總署他們是在第一線處理有關人事業務所以他們對於相關的問題他們常常會定辦他們內部的一個規則你剛只把人事總署為什麼要定這個講了嗎你還是沒有回答我的問題啊他跟安慰辦法的關係是什麼要走哪一套要走安慰辦法還是要走這個員工職場霸凌防治處理程序要走哪一套"},{"start":5209.008,"end":5232.529,"text":"行政院有一套考試院有一套要走哪一套我想只要能符合相關的規定公務員都可以引用來維護他自己你的意思是什麼要走哪一套各個機關自己決定是這樣嗎要走哪一套由各個權益受侵害的公務員來自己想辦法是這樣嗎應該不是這樣吧"},{"start":5235.325,"end":5247.214,"text":"所以這部分我們會在我剛剛在口頭報告裡面也強調就是說我們必須要修改工人保障法將有關職場霸凌的部分提高到法律違規下一個問題違反了人事總署這個員工職場霸凌防治與處理原則各個機關有訂定嗎"},{"start":5258.29,"end":5274.539,"text":"行政機關有訂定嗎?應該都有照這個規定訂定自己機關裡面你確定都有嗎?我不是很瞭解下一個更關鍵的問題違反了又怎麼樣?違反了有任何法律效果嗎?"},{"start":5275.977,"end":5302.967,"text":"有什麼法律效果委員不問當然各機關如果有違反的話那相關的人員包括人事人員啊或者機關的首長當然可能會受到行政的懲處什麼樣子的行政懲處財政勞動部有按照這個處理原則在做嗎有嗎有嗎被提名的你確定嗎"},{"start":5304.389,"end":5328.658,"text":"第二個違反了這個作業要點裡面根本沒有涉法律效果啊它所存在的困境是什麼我跟您報告啊就跟安慰辦法一樣現在的安慰辦法是毫無辦法我為什麼說現在的安慰辦法是毫無辦法第一個解釋上面現行的安慰辦法第三條也好第四條也好有包括霸凌嗎你認為有包括霸凌嗎"},{"start":5334.229,"end":5352.108,"text":"就是有關生命、身體及健康危害的事你認為這個就有包括霸凌了應該霸凌的部分應該沒有關係如果在文藝的射程範圍你認為包括霸凌下一個問題違反的法律效果是什麼現行的安慰辦法你應該很熟啊"},{"start":5353.103,"end":5379.217,"text":"我現在喔上一趴我在問的是行政院人總的員工霸凌職場處理的原則現在這一趴我在問的是考試院保訓會處理的安慰辦法違反了安慰辦法我沒有制定這個計畫阿我就沒有制定這個防護計畫嘛我從頭到尾就沒制定這個防護計畫阿因為沒有制定防護計畫發生了這樣子的事情請問"},{"start":5381.311,"end":5407.966,"text":"要負什麼責任一般機關應該都會照他的建議作為來對不起啊如果沒有違反了安慰辦法違反了安慰辦法的法律效果是什麼這個問題沒有這麼複雜吧對違反了法律效果就是如果機關人事人員或國務長有這方面的問題的話那當然可能會受到平時考核的懲處"},{"start":5409.212,"end":5434.605,"text":"就平時考核的懲處就只有這樣沒有其他的法律效果有罰則嗎有罰則嗎罰則目前因為保障罰並沒有訂罰則所以這部分目前是沒有但是行政所以沒有的這個現況你可以接受嗎行政懲處的部分我們一樣一樣來啦對於沒有罰則的現況你可以接受嗎"},{"start":5435.8,"end":5455.118,"text":"所以這部分貴黨團有提出19條之一的修正這個我知道啊這個是台灣民眾黨黨團提的嘛現在我在問的是考試院具體的作為嘛黃榮春上任的時候說他有心理準備是末代考試院院長他的責任非常重大"},{"start":5455.879,"end":5478.036,"text":"那我現在就要請教你嘛當責任非常重大覺得自己有可能是最後一任那當然要加緊做、努力做、趕快做嘛但問題是我們看到的具體作為不是這樣啊我為什麼說我們看到的具體作為不是這樣我今天提出來請教您的問題都不是新的問題都不是新的問題"},{"start":5479.4,"end":5504.955,"text":"都是從現在從法律到安慰辦法存在明顯的缺陷但是我看不到考試院有具體推動修法的任何行動我再說一次我沒有看到考試院有具體推動修法的任何行動怎麼會是其他的在野黨黨團提呢考試院具體的作為在哪裡剛剛你說了"},{"start":5508.499,"end":5522.675,"text":"你支持在公務人員保障法徵定反霸凌條款對不對是你為什麼支持因為現行的公務人員保障法19條沒有辦法滿足規範的目的嘛對不對因為19條目前是比較"},{"start":5524.711,"end":5540.398,"text":"一般的規範沒有針對職場霸凌特別去訂定不是啊 如果按照你剛剛的那個解釋文藝的設成範圍包括在裡面為什麼有必要要增訂反霸凌條款公委員保障法第19條最大的問題在哪裡 您知道嗎"},{"start":5541.5,"end":5569.164,"text":"對,因為他只是一般的規定那對於特定的就是沒有設罰則嘛對,所以剛剛考試院的保訓會花了納稅人的錢請台大的教授做了研究報告過去這十年我為什麼講過去這十年安慰辦法有多久沒有修了上一次修訂安慰辦法是什麼時候你知不知道不是很記得2014年修的"},{"start":5570.584,"end":5590.845,"text":"2014年到現在2024年10年喔10年喔有關於公務員保障的安慰辦法10年沒有修啊我2018年的時候我第一次在立法院我要求要修安慰辦法任市長同意了考試院也同意了"},{"start":5591.704,"end":5609.769,"text":"我2024年我再回來立法院我再看一次安慰辦法一條都沒有修一條都沒有更正您作為考試院院長的被提名人您作為考試院的副院長前任的副院長您有沒有什麼話想要對公務人員說"},{"start":5611.121,"end":5637.219,"text":"有沒有任何的藉口、任何的理由安慰辦法可以十年不修導致現在保障規範的密度不足導致現在沒有任何法律的效果被提名人你有沒有什麼話想要對全體的公務員說目前他們是有提出修正草案出來將這個整個安慰辦法把它訂得剛王委員講的密度比較強"},{"start":5639.032,"end":5664.233,"text":"現在喔保訓會十年了以後我剛上一個問題啦是十年沒有修啊你有沒有什麼話要對公務人員說對我們當然要對這部分負起責任那要負起什麼責任要不要檢討當然我們會檢討各方面各方的主教意見我們都必須要第一個啦其實周老師我給你誠懇的建議啦"},{"start":5665.208,"end":5686.001,"text":"作為考試院院長的被提名人您可以展現一個態度安慰辦法十年沒有修我們覺得很遺憾我們做得不夠給公務人員的保障不夠我們深切的反省檢討我保證接下來在我任內一定會把這些問題解決這種基本態度您可不可以展現"},{"start":5688.381,"end":5711.688,"text":"我剛講的內容你同不同意我同意好來既然同意我們就往下看公務人員安慰辦法10年沒有修10年沒有修過去保訓會是一再承諾一再跳票院長被提名的您看一下我把每一次保訓會的承諾按照時間的序列"},{"start":5713.892,"end":5742.638,"text":"從2014年最後一次修正發生進棚大火我第一任當立法委員在立法院質詢承諾說要修到現在2024年到2024年我第一會期繼續追蹤這件事情我們的保訓會終於在8月提出了修正版本時間的關係我只問您一件事你對於這個2024年8月12號考試院所提出來的安慰辦法修正你看過沒有"},{"start":5744.012,"end":5760.045,"text":"對 看過你滿意嗎對 當然你滿意嗎還是有很多要在在遵守的地方如果有很多要在遵守的地方要不要撤回去把它補強再來修是 我們會"},{"start":5763.254,"end":5790.583,"text":"如果我們能上任的話當然會希望保訓會能夠聽取社會各界的聲音我不知道保訓會出了什麼事情我也不知道考試院出了什麼事情這麼重要的事情喔被拖了十年原地踏步 毫無修正拖了十年以後到今年8月所提出來的辦法依舊不及格我為什麼說依舊不及格"},{"start":5791.927,"end":5803.153,"text":"違反沒有基本的法則所以我剛剛才整理出來包括你們當初委託徐婉妮教授所做的研究報告沒有法則沒有用"},{"start":5804.349,"end":5826.034,"text":"沒有辦法連結到一定明確的法律效果包括在2019年的時候到立法院來報告的時候也承認這是問題但我無法理解的是到2024年出來的結果一樣沒有罰則如果您上任考試院院長的話你要不要跟全體公務員承諾"},{"start":5827.094,"end":5848.852,"text":"對於安慰辦法對於公務人員保障法所提供給全體公務人員的保障徹底的檢討讚不贊成贊成需要多久最後一個問題不要再拖十年啦拖到您下台了以後變成跟上一個黃榮春一樣啊責任重大但什麼都沒做需要多久一年夠不夠好謝謝黃委員"},{"start":5858.684,"end":5880.947,"text":"好 謝謝被提名人下一位我們請吳思雅委員詢問好 謝謝主席 有請院長被提名人我們請周被提名人"},{"start":5890.871,"end":5911.617,"text":"老師您好我今天有兩個主題就教於您第一個當然是現在大家都在檢視公務體系的反霸凌的機制那我認為從個案來檢視通案的制度是我們責無旁貸應當承擔的職責那我要跟您具體的倡議來下一頁"},{"start":5914.471,"end":5937.7,"text":"建立正向的職場文化我也看了您今天的書面報告或是剛剛幾位委員的槌尋你們都打算針對公務人員保障法來進行修法或者是來研議一套反霸凌的專法到目前為止何者可行修公務人員保障法或是反霸凌的專法有可行"},{"start":5938.669,"end":5965.941,"text":"因為公務員保障法是考試院可以修那如果修一個專法那也許是變成勞動部或者行政院的權責那修保障法可能比較單純所以就考試院的職責優先從公務人員保障法來下手那多久時間你們要提出法案一年內是嗎更快可以嗎我們希望大概"},{"start":5968.56,"end":5992.497,"text":"夏惠琪提出然後我們努力的趕快來完成立法院會接求好嗎當然你們要會嫌人事總署、行政院一起來辦理所以呢公務人員保障法的修法先行我們夏惠琪就來審議全力來衝刺通過至於反霸凌的專法涉及他的認定、執行可能牽涉的部會也比較多我認為可以從長計議好那下一頁"},{"start":5995.319,"end":6024.058,"text":"我有一個更具體也更建設性的建議也就是本席2022年我向教育部開了第一槍主要是越來越多的學生選擇了用非常殘酷的手段來結束自己的生命而這當中非常嚴肅來檢視學校雖然有三級的專輔機制可是有六成選擇自殺的年輕生命"},{"start":6025.098,"end":6042.627,"text":"並沒有被任何一個專輔機制接過球也就是有六成以上的自殺學生是被現行校園的三級新輔制度給漏接了所以由學生開始倡議也是來學習國際的經驗從校園來推動心理健康價"},{"start":6049.77,"end":6071.864,"text":"我從2022年向教育部當時是潘文忠部長提出質詢當時只有兩個學校就是國立的中山大學跟私立的實踐大學到現在兩年內已經有127所公私立大學包含技職體系都已經有了心理健康教"},{"start":6073.045,"end":6100.326,"text":"這是校園再下一頁剛剛講高教我現在講國教教育部也肯認到除了關心青年學子的身體健康也要關心心理健康所以教育部向下延伸讓心理假進入高中職今年8月已經全面施行我要跟院長貝提名人來說明"},{"start":6101.747,"end":6118.904,"text":"心理架不是指多一個架讓需要也許過勞身心承受壓力的年輕學子他有一個架可以去喘息之外更重要的是透過心理架這個制度可以讓學校的心腹制度"},{"start":6119.685,"end":6134.202,"text":"接駐這每一個學生我們這個會期也在修學生輔導法很渴望在這個禮拜五就完成二、三讀所以制度上校園已經推動了新理假那麼公務體系呢"},{"start":6135.163,"end":6155.468,"text":"公務體系現在十種價別越來越進步越來越多元比如說2013年也經過女性的倡議開始提供生理假女性在生理期的時候可以來請生理假或是2022年我們也修了性別平等工作法本期也有提案我們賦予"},{"start":6157.128,"end":6179.986,"text":"陪產假還有陪產檢也有假這是越來越進步現在少子化的對策我們對於生育的環境更友善同樣對於心理健康要友善心理假有沒有可能在臺灣的公務體系先行呢下一頁我們的人事總處Say Yes"},{"start":6180.882,"end":6202.099,"text":"可是我們考試院的全序部表達反對反對的理由是什麼我們全序部非常的不敬不委居然說公務員請假會影響民眾的服務品質喔那這樣所有公務人員連市假、病假、喪假都不能請囉"},{"start":6204.144,"end":6223.376,"text":"你們說心理架會有標籤化的疑慮也會擔心大家有需要的不敢請或是僥倖者去濫請這個價別不要這樣防賊呀甚至心理架本身就是要去標籤化"},{"start":6225.639,"end":6252.628,"text":"讓所有的公務體系懂得關懷每一個身旁職場的同僚他也許身體健康出了問題或是他心理健康出了問題正是我們來接住他提供關懷的正向機會怎麼你們全序部的意見說心理架會標籤化你們的反對理由正是我要大力挑戰支持心理架的理由啊"},{"start":6254.144,"end":6274.351,"text":"所以你們的幾個理由我完全認為是不進步沒有同理心完全不合理下一頁所以來修訂公務人員請假規則人事總署都同意但是就卡在全序部您是未來的渴望成為考試院院長的院長人選"},{"start":6277.871,"end":6295.432,"text":"從公務體系來先行．唯有公務體系先做．才能夠擴及民間來學習仿效．來增設新理價Yes or No我想這部分我們認為研究上應該是可行但是一些細節還是要跟相關機關討論"},{"start":6297.148,"end":6316.643,"text":"那我跟您報告人事總處他們研議了所有可行的方案都認為只要在現行的價別裡頭去增設也不影響全體的這個價的日期所以公務人員請假規則希望您馬上責成全序部正向的來研議讓身心調試價能夠在公務體系來上路為我們的健康台灣"},{"start":6324.409,"end":6351.935,"text":"從physical health到mental health都能夠雙軌並行好嗎我期待您再一次更正面的say yes對我們認為這個方向應該是可行的好那可不可能一樣趕快來研議我們下個會期如果有相關的要處理的議案立法院也會全力來協助我們也一樣努力在下個會期來一併的提出好嗎"},{"start":6352.819,"end":6370.396,"text":"因為這個主要修公務人員請假規則就可以是不需要送立法院嗎沒有到法律會見對 但是我希望下個會期我們就能夠看到好嗎其實包括公務人員保障法搞不好也有可能你針對反霸凌健康的職場環境也有相關好嗎一併的來檢視法規"},{"start":6372.398,"end":6398.651,"text":"是保證法修正當然要送到大院來審理是,好,那我們就正向期待謝謝您的yes第二個呢第二個主題我也需要您正面的一個yes部部都是文化部,人人都是文化人國家需要更多文化治理的人才考試院要做更多首先我問您,院長您本身有文化生活嗎?"},{"start":6399.651,"end":6415.668,"text":"你有去看去美術館看視覺藝術﹑或者是去兩廳院表演場館看表演藝術嗎對有時候會去兩廳院有時候那多密集還是久久去一次您上一次是什麼時候大概幾個月前幾個月前好來跟您報告"},{"start":6422.472,"end":6443.841,"text":"我自己在立法院非常高壓非常過勞我這個會期又擔任了黨團的幹事長我上週五我也進了北藝中心去欣賞了簡佩如這是臺灣非常優秀的新銳的女舞蹈家她的舞蹈創作《黑蝴蝶》"},{"start":6445.165,"end":6465.737,"text":"對我而言在高壓過牢的政治場域裡頭去親近Iwan就是一個出口搭配我剛剛說的你賦予心理架的時候大家可以去找到一個自我調節的方法他也許去親近Iwan去進美術館去表演聽射或者是他去運動都好"},{"start":6466.974,"end":6478.996,"text":"所以我們公務人員需要有這樣提供一個療癒的出口這也是現在我們希望人人都是文化人步步都是文化步大家都要有文化的思維下一頁"},{"start":6480.661,"end":6503.397,"text":"國家除了讓每一個公務同仁有﹐屬於自己提升內在文化之能的﹐文化生活之外﹐我們更需要大舉的來增進﹐文化的治理人才幾個理由﹐第一個﹐這幾年我們的文化管所﹐大幅的增加﹐文化建設蓬勃的發展﹐第二個﹐"},{"start":6504.398,"end":6512.871,"text":"文化的法令越來越進步所以我們的人才禁用要跟上第三個要落實賴清德總統的"},{"start":6515.014,"end":6544.344,"text":"文化政見我們要文化優先第四個理由也是跟進國際我們要讓文化的永續成為臺灣非常重要的治理的一個要項我分享跟您來論述這是考試院的使命考選行政保障與培訓行政在考選行政的作業就是去把著從選才、攬才能夠去把著"},{"start":6544.924,"end":6573.572,"text":"有文化治理的專業人才在保障與培訓行政的部分就是協助我們公共同仁育才跟知能、文化知能的提升我看到您今天的書面報告您說因應時代的進步我們要給公共同仁各方面的知能提升包括人權意識的提升我支持包括性別意識的提升這太重要了包括數位治理"},{"start":6574.672,"end":6603.012,"text":"資訊安全跟AI現在凡事都AI大家有AI的課程基本的AI職能而且懂得運用我都支持但是我希望你們加一項未來您渴望來領導考試院文化治理的文化思維應當也是我們未來考選以及培訓很重要的界面下一頁第一個文化管所這麼多"},{"start":6604.537,"end":6618.916,"text":"蔡英文總統上任之後﹐我們從文策院﹐從鐵道部園區﹐從國家攝影文化中心﹐電影視聽文化中心都成立了﹐然後升格的有臺灣歷史博物館﹐臺灣文學館都升格了﹐"},{"start":6622.381,"end":6639.821,"text":"然後公共公視台語臺也成立了臺灣plus也成立了而地方政府不管是南部的衛武營北部的流行音樂中心或是臺北藝術中心從中央到地方文化建設越來越多所以我們需要人才"},{"start":6640.982,"end":6667.597,"text":"最新的三個管社也是本席努力催生的就是建築文化中心2026年要成立了我國家的漫畫博物館選址在臺中2029年也要成立了包括一個斥資100多億的國家兒童未來館2030年要上路這些管社都需要人才"},{"start":6668.752,"end":6683.541,"text":"您一直點頭您同意我的觀點這是第一個我們需要文化治理人才而且是專業的第二個面向跟進現在的文化法令的一再修正尤其是文化基本法就是文化的憲法"},{"start":6684.861,"end":6703.046,"text":"108年完成三讀文資法的23條就很清楚的說中央政府要制定人事的專業法律來適度放寬文化藝術人員之禁用這是文化的憲法、文資法的規定下一頁"},{"start":6705.011,"end":6725.19,"text":"文化資產保存法也大修在2016年也是本席催生的最大一次幅度的文化資產保存法的修正台灣更需要文化資產的保護人才而且文資法的修正它導入了一個"},{"start":6725.911,"end":6726.631,"text":"副院委員會主席"},{"start":6743.521,"end":6760.508,"text":"國營事業動作最快從台糖、台電、中油到水公司他們自己很快地跟上了文化資產保存的趨勢經濟部所屬的國營事業都特別地去招考文化資產類的專業人員這是國營事業再下一頁"},{"start":6767.389,"end":6790.661,"text":"文化藝術講注條例也是本席推動修正的我們讓公共藝術更多軌的推進所以各個部會都要來做多元的公共藝術它需要更多人才我這幾個法令的精進跟您所報告陳述的都是告訴我們以前文化"},{"start":6791.741,"end":6808.879,"text":"人才是文化部的事文化治理是文化部的事現在沒有部部都是文化部包括中央政府包括地方政府都要有文化治理的文化思維所以我們的文化人才夠嗎再下一個"},{"start":6810.214,"end":6827.194,"text":"賴清德總統兩大承諾跟八大主張不管是博物館的國家隊、不管是文化保存、不管是文化傳播也都告訴了我們文化人才最後一項跟進國際過去在講SDGs"},{"start":6831.334,"end":6849.977,"text":"只從環境、經濟跟社會的面向2019年UNESCO開始宣稱也開始行動落實永續SDGs有第四個支柱就是文化的面向文化也要永續"},{"start":6851.278,"end":6879.038,"text":"所以我跟您分了四個部分來論述長管越來越多文化建設越來越多文化的法律越來越精進再加上我們最重視文化文化優先的賴清德總統回應他的政見到最後一個跟進國際的文化永續的行動我們需要文化人才啊但是呢下一頁現在的高考跟普考文化行政是死亡之組啊"},{"start":6880.494,"end":6905.452,"text":"難考、缺又少這個是高考下一頁普考也是每年文化行政都只有2.4%遠低於一般行政跟各類科的錄取率文化行政從高考到普考都是死亡之族所以你提供的元額就很少人來考了更何況這個是現有的缺喔再下一頁"},{"start":6906.786,"end":6921.854,"text":"我現在要跟您講的是我們要新開很多文化治理的缺因為現在的文化人才的聘任是適用教育人員任用條例但是教育專業跟文化專業大不相同他應當鬆綁下一頁"},{"start":6925.319,"end":6949.581,"text":"而早就在文集法、修法跟文化政策白皮書2019年都接駐請考試院的全序部加速聘任人員人事條例的立法作業或者是你的聘任人員人事條例沒有辦法那麼快你至少讓藝文人事的專法文化部自己來先訂可不可以呢?下一頁"},{"start":6951.022,"end":6978.039,"text":"更早還沒有文化部的時候文建會98年的時候就要求你們要趕快放寬文化專業的人事聘任專法或者是你的聘任人員也快一點吧你們只會駁回只會反對下一頁可是你們自己的聘任人員人事條例要整合科研社教文化等人才訓練"},{"start":6980.27,"end":6998.675,"text":"等了十多年沒丁沒當那你這樣去卡文化部門自己設一個下一頁文化專業人員的聘任條例你自己的動作不加緊還去卡人家的法案這是立法院的預算中心的建議"},{"start":7000.256,"end":7029.244,"text":"所以我花了這些時間跟您面報您是未來的考試院渴望的院長文化治理的人才從現有的缺已經夠少了然後我希望有多的人才禁用的管道鬆綁你要嘛趕快把你的這個聘用人士條例趕快做或者是你授權讓文化類的自己去做一個文化人才禁用的專法到底either way您在這裡承諾一下您的看法"},{"start":7030.164,"end":7048.964,"text":"當然競爭人員部分那要不要提升到法律位階範圍怎麼樣我想這些其實全系部都在討論十多年的討論對那這部分也許慢一點那未來我們當然希望先讓文化專法來先行可以嗎"},{"start":7050.799,"end":7068.806,"text":"文化類的自己文化部門有一個文化人才的聘任的專法可行嗎對這部分當然也是一個可以研議的一個方向那我們會看要用什麼方式來做可能對整個文化人才的培育會比較好"},{"start":7070.101,"end":7093.64,"text":"從各類的學者、專家、文化界的倡議文化部門需要一個文化專業人員的聘任專法我認為您今天雖然say了yes可是不夠strong我在司法法治委員會我會持續的來追蹤跟盯你我希望這個部分文化優先不是口號我們需要文化治理人好 謝謝"},{"start":7100.564,"end":7107.818,"text":"謝謝委員、謝謝被提名人報告全院委員會休息十分鐘休息之後繼續進行詢問,現在休息"},{"start":7737.992,"end":7740.276,"text":"報告全院委員會現在繼續開會進行委員詢問請徐委員新穎詢問"},{"start":7763.51,"end":7770.54,"text":"謝謝主席本席請考試院長備提名人我們請作備提名人上台委員好"},{"start":7780.393,"end":7809.185,"text":"周備提名人您好剛剛本席也聽了您在答詢前面幾位委員的詢問本席還是要問您因為您過去做過全序部長、考試院副院長現在被提名為考試院院長請問您對考試院在政府體系的功能有沒有很高的期待?有沒有?考試院應該要負起憲法的責任"},{"start":7811.672,"end":7833.55,"text":"所以考試院應該要負起憲法的責任那請問您可以說說看考試院在整個的體系中有哪些職長和功能照憲法增修條文的規定考試院是負責考試就包括公務人員考試還有專技考試那另外負責公務人員"},{"start":7835.209,"end":7845.921,"text":"權序、保障、撫恤、退休的事項那另外也負責公務人員任免、考積、疾控、升遷、褒獎的法治事項"},{"start":7846.756,"end":7875.295,"text":"您非常的熟悉非常好但是我們的我們在立法院行使同意權我們不是在考備法條那沒錯您剛剛講了憲法增修條文第6條那憲法增修條文之前的憲法那它的功能和職長是在第83條你應該很了解這兩者的差異在哪裡除了差異跟養老其他都幾乎都一樣你說差異是什麼養老"},{"start":7877.635,"end":7899.54,"text":"養老養老就線條83條有養老多一個養老那其他任用、全序、考期、集奉、升遷、保障、包講、補序、退休都是在升修條文繼續用那把養老大概任而養老是跟退休比較重疊所以就把養老這個事項拿掉沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":7900.08,"end":7924.273,"text":"最關鍵的是徵修條文我們再來看徵修條文把公務人員的任免、考積、疾奉、升遷、褒獎本來是完全的人事制度權現在變成只剩法治事項這個是完全的矮化萎縮了考試院的職責怎麼會只有養老"},{"start":7925.492,"end":7946.669,"text":"你應該很了解吧我是說跟過去的憲法的規定只差一個事項那至於內容那是因為整個功能和職長的差別那是因為人事行政局在民國56年成立以後那對於人事行政局跟考試院主權有很多不清楚的地方所以後來憲法增修條文才討論"},{"start":7948.991,"end":7967.362,"text":"其中的任免、考積及奉、徵簽你唸的這些它變成法制只有法制事項那實際執行是原始總署自從增修條文之後考試院就變成行政院的法制局它只有法制事項"},{"start":7969.064,"end":7989.179,"text":"所以過去也很多學者有在批評我們人事行政當時的人事行政局現在的人事行政總署整個架空了考試院所以讓考試院在公務人員人事權的領域大幅的萎縮目前也是如此應該不會因為考試院還是掌管"},{"start":7990.04,"end":8002.601,"text":"全系、保障、輔系、退休全部的權利那至於法制四項當然就只有這五項沒錯但是法制四項但是現在真正人事的整個的任免考機"},{"start":8004.597,"end":8019.849,"text":"升遷、褒獎整個你們沒有完全的權利你只有負責法治事項啊但是因為法治事項它是規範法律所以法律規範以後人事總裁就要照這個法律來做但是這樣的情況跟國父孫中山先生當初"},{"start":8021.428,"end":8045.768,"text":"五權憲法的理念相差天差地別吧距離非常遙遠啊那因為對您認同嘛對不對所以那您如果有機會有修憲的機會你會主張憲法原本設計考試權的實質功能和其他四權能夠相互合作相互制衡的運作您認同嗎對因為這涉及修憲你說對所以你認同嗎"},{"start":8049.702,"end":8076.475,"text":"我想要尊重大院的提議還有所以你現在你就矮化成為這個不會不會不會矮化所以你說尊重大院就是說你現在是考試院的院長被提名人請問你對考試院本席看了一下你的這個自傳回答就是有這個問題的你的書面回答你的期許不到100字你要身為一個考試院院長"},{"start":8077.574,"end":8096.303,"text":"被提名人而且未來總統還多次的稱讚您歷練完整那你要執掌整個考試院應該讓整個考試院他是真的可以在五權分立中能夠相互制衡還有互相合作才對所以我們真的很期許應該要如此"},{"start":8097.803,"end":8115.508,"text":"也因為如此所以我們發現您剛剛講的我們人事的認免這一次勞動部的霸凌案我們是不是看到大家都說為什麼可以公務人員可以這樣子做直升機可以做直升機上去然後公務人員"},{"start":8116.755,"end":8136.839,"text":"如果剛剛也有很多委員在詢問本席現在就請教你如果現在有公務人員他在工作崗位上徬徨無助他對整個工作有受到霸凌的情況你會如何建議他應該向誰求助"},{"start":8138.175,"end":8166.462,"text":"對他應該跟他們機關裡面都有人事單位那人事單位也都會有所謂身心協助的方案來處理所以只有這樣嗎整個考試院沒有任何一個單位可以接受他的這個申訴嗎對如果他對於機關的管理措施若有不符的話可以再申請這一次就是針對機關的管理方式有非常有疑慮啊而且受苦啊"},{"start":8167.142,"end":8195.444,"text":"可以向保訓會再申訴對 您說對了剛剛一直都沒提到叫做公務人員保障季培訓委員會就本席所知您還當過主委 對不對所以您應該很了解可是為什麼這麼多的公務員他們受霸凌、他們受苦、他們不敢或是沒有向保訓會是他們不知道還是不信任呢有有 霸凌的案件還是有"},{"start":8198.951,"end":8213.14,"text":"所以您在考試院擔任副院長期間也知道都有霸凌案本席手上也看到在這個考試院的保訓委員在112年就提出霸凌案件"},{"start":8215.342,"end":8241.318,"text":"從111年開始一直成長到112年有31件所以在行政體系中的霸凌是存在的而且考試院的保訓會就是剛剛說的這個委員會保訓會也是知道的可是為什麼沒有主動的關心跟調查因為我們只是負責再申訴那對於再申訴的"},{"start":8242.366,"end":8268.399,"text":"好所以剛剛討論那麼多本席要就公務人員保障法請秀出來公務人員保障法第77條第一項的規定公務人員對於服務機關所為之管理措施或有關工作條件之處置認為不當致影響其權益者得依本法提起申訴再申訴是沒錯沒錯那"},{"start":8271.178,"end":8294.705,"text":"現在霸凌事件這個全國這樣沸沸揚揚我們的保訓會有沒有在主動調查因為如果他們有提出再申訴的話那當然會請當事人還有機關到會來申訴所以我們保訓會不主動保障公務人員而是要他提出申訴因為目前的那個保訓會"},{"start":8296.052,"end":8315.917,"text":"他負責再申訴的部分是要等有再申訴的案件進來他們才會處理所以等待再等待然後申訴案件進來之後你們就公文來公文去可是我們的很多公務員每天水深火熱度日如年啊"},{"start":8316.783,"end":8344.429,"text":"可是我們的這個考試院或是我們的公務機關呢保訓會我們就只有讓這些申訴案件再做公文履行文件都在履行當中但是當事人在水深火熱當中所以本席想請教考試院院長被提名人您對目前公務人員法定的保障機制的運作滿不滿意應該還要再加強"},{"start":8345.109,"end":8369.422,"text":"所以保訊會可不可以主動的來調查來約談可不可以因為這是涉及權責的問題那我們會把法律把它修得比較完整有哪一條法令有規定你們不能主動的調查約談請你告訴本席因為沒有嘛因為是有各服務機關一般都有各服務機關來做"},{"start":8370.814,"end":8395.017,"text":"那今天整個考試院你就有一個叫公務人員保障暨培訓委員會那你要保障公務人員剛剛我們念的第77條他就在保障公務人員那我們保訓會所有的委員我們都坐在那邊等待嗎因為未來擔任考試院院長這個部分要不要革新"},{"start":8396.095,"end":8420.612,"text":"我們會把公務人員保障法第19條把它修得更完整一點讓機關還有公務人員他有所遵循那剛剛說的第77條你要不要主動呢你要不要現在就全國都知道了你今天是公務人員保障的培訓委員會那我們都不用去主動積極調查跟約談嗎"},{"start":8423.55,"end":8444.905,"text":"對 但是因為這部分再甚是因為是屬於事後的救濟程序那救濟程序通常是要由當事人提出那保訓會才會來處理那至於事前防範這部分那當然有需要再構相關法規或是你們知道你們就可以主動主動的去調查去了解啊"},{"start":8446.026,"end":8466.835,"text":"這個部分本席對您未來如果如果您有順利擔任考試院院長我們希望這個部分要革新我會努力那再來就是說公務人員保障法第21條也有所謂的國家賠償和死亡慰問金的規定"},{"start":8467.776,"end":8488.669,"text":"那勞動部的這個霸凌事件遺憾已經發生了而且呢總統兩次的道歉行政院長也出來道歉了請問周考試院院長被提名人如果您擔任考試院院長您對本案的受害人家屬會主動提供"},{"start":8491.988,"end":8515.418,"text":"我們看一下公務人員保障法第21條第一項第二項公務人員因為機關提供之安全及衛生防護措施有瑕疵致其生命、身體或健康受損時得依國家賠償法請求賠償公務人員執行職務時發生意外致受傷、失能或死亡者應發給慰問金"},{"start":8519.346,"end":8538.465,"text":"請問這個案例您如果擔任考試院院長會不會發給慰問金慰問金的部分是要由他們會向機關來申請那慰問金有一定的價值站在考試院的立場是不是可以發給慰問金因為所謂的發生意外"},{"start":8539.585,"end":8550.847,"text":"被霸凌致死也是意外只要非疾病都算意外是不是非疾病這邊的意外應該是非疾病致死都是算是意外"},{"start":8556.929,"end":8574.397,"text":"請您回答可以嗎?可以發給慰問金嗎?要看實際有機關來他申請然後機關會合訂因為要看實際情形因為每個個案都不太一樣所以我們也很難去判斷說他到底符合因為慰問金有一個慰問金的辦法"},{"start":8575.157,"end":8575.637,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8606.599,"end":8619.435,"text":"針對公務人員的這個保障不管是防止他被霸凌或是讓他們在整個的各種升遷、任用各方面能夠積極地掌握這個人事權"},{"start":8620.421,"end":8646.141,"text":"本席對您是有期許我們也希望您對自己是要有期許不要讓考試院淪為淪為行政院的法治局那接下來本席也想請教您您過去一直說這個年金改革一定要做但是本席在這裡也要就年金改革"},{"start":8647.639,"end":8670.404,"text":"要進行大家是認同但是過去的年金改革對過去幾十年為臺灣付出的公務人員沒有信賴保障原則他們如果30年前知道他們的這份工作最後會有這種決策他的這個退休金整個會被刪、被改"},{"start":8671.674,"end":8699.493,"text":"他可能大可他在選擇的時候他可能就不一定繼續留下來所以我們看到整個的這個退府基金我們的整個退府基金沒有法制化你未來擔任如果擔任考試院院長是不是讓整個的退府基金可以有法制化所以法制化是他的組成人員有沒有法令規定"},{"start":8702.939,"end":8728.516,"text":"他的決策機制有沒有法定的責任?沒有他的所有會議有沒有書面紀錄?沒有他的操作結果有沒有績效檢驗?沒有所以這些都是問題我們期待一定要改革可以嗎?這部分包括會議紀錄應該都是有的那所有績效也都是有紀錄的"},{"start":8730.974,"end":8754.514,"text":"這個有法制嗎?有法令規定嗎?沒有沒有法令規定因為監理委員會、管理局他們照法令都必須要做了而且很多事項也都要在網站上公開我們最近這幾年的退府基金績效不錯我們看到跟整個的好像股市的趨勢"},{"start":8756.455,"end":8763.898,"text":"有其相同的趨勢那當初大幅刪減的年金在112年有1300億元在113年10月也到了1664億元那以現在這種情形是不是可以還給被刪減的老軍公教人員一個公道"},{"start":8779.096,"end":8800.701,"text":"因為最近退伍基金的經營績效是因為整個國內國際股市會比較好所以目前是績效比較好但是還不至於是不是可以讓這些過去被政府欺騙的這些老軍公教人員還給他們一個遲來的正義可以嗎對 因為雖然績效比較好但是那個"},{"start":8801.806,"end":8827.161,"text":"水庫的坑洞非常大所以要法治化不要都沒有一個全責過去整個對所以本席希望未來我們考試院可以朝這個方向來進行當然要法治化沒錯接著很快的本席想請您看一下投影片上的幾個圖形如果依公務人員的官等有分檢任、見任和委任三種對不對"},{"start":8828.308,"end":8856.716,"text":"那如果以檢認跟委任三種關等的人數那以他們的人數他會形成哪一個哪一個圖比較正確就是以檢認的人數的多寡、檢認人數的多寡跟委任人數的多寡合理的應該是哪一個圖形可以來代表因為目前四個圖形都不太活現在"},{"start":8857.621,"end":8884.664,"text":"我不是說現在以正常我們認為檢任是比較高的職等嘛建任是中間嘛委任是比較基層嘛那照理應該是哪一個照道理因為目前是建任照道理是哪一個嘛以正常應該是哪一個正常應該是委任很少建任比較多那委任也比較少檢任很少吧檢任很少對正常應該是第二個吧"},{"start":8885.646,"end":8913.771,"text":"就是三角形吧因為第二個委任超過建任跟目前的實況是不符合對你就講到好你就講到了實況我們就來看確實現在台灣公務人員的實況請秀出實況現在台灣公務人員的實況是不是比較像這一個對應該是一個三角形變成橢圓形而且橢圓形的這個比例所以這個就是台灣"},{"start":8915.251,"end":8932.941,"text":"整個官場的一個怪現象怎麼會基層的人員少基層的人員少這是無人公司嗎不是因為基層因為委任的部分他基本上是做比較事務性的很多是做事務性工作所以那個值等"},{"start":8934.246,"end":8961.272,"text":"不能太高所以這是一個很不正常的願望沒有一個單位是這樣但是我們台灣您很了解台灣漸漸的變成這樣過去應該是三角形吧您不否認吧過去應該一開始應該也是三角形因為建任是高考機構那機關用高考機構的人員來辦事會所以您覺得這樣是不是一個不正常的現象您有沒有什麼改進方案"},{"start":8962.264,"end":8977.691,"text":"目前應該目前用這種橢圓形的狀況應該還比較適當所以最基層的少中間的比較多對因為基層部分很多做事務性工作可以用A顧人仁或者甚至委外"},{"start":8979.779,"end":9006.094,"text":"來辦理那應該辦事情的如果說鑑任比較多的話因為鑑任基本上是優秀的委任人員升上來或者直接高考及格那這樣的話對機關的行政的品質會比較好本席希望您可以謝謝徐委員謝謝貝蒂明人"},{"start":9008.035,"end":9033.971,"text":"接下來請張雅琳委員詢問主席好,有請被提名人請周被提名人備詢"},{"start":9043.708,"end":9068.293,"text":"張委員好周貝提名人好首先因為其實上個上上禮拜發生這個勞動部的憾事其實我一直在追那我也收到非常多有關於勞動部內部員工的一些澄清以及我也聽到其他部會的一些聲音所以我想要就大家的一些聲音在制度改革的上面來跟貝提名人做一些討論就是說首先是在這個"},{"start":9071.181,"end":9095.438,"text":"現在有些聲音是希望說可以讓公務人員來組公會但是呢我們的權序部很快就回應說在7月的時候已經提出了公務員協會法草案在公務員的協會和組織針對公務員的協會和權力已經有大幅的提升依據公會法的規定我們來看勞工是必須具有這三個權力"},{"start":9097.479,"end":9124.8,"text":"團結權、協商權跟爭議權那現在就是爭議權的行使就是所謂的罷工行使的權利還是有一些爭議那我想要請問就兩個問題來請教就是被提名人你針對公務人員主公會這件事情請問你是支持的嗎那您對於現在提出的公務員協會法草案是不是可以比照勞工三權的狀況讓公務員來跟政府協商和要求相關的權益"},{"start":9126.161,"end":9141.517,"text":"因為公務員能不能組公會因為公務員是在執行公權力那組公會會不會有其他的問題產生那當然要順頌那因為大院的未還委員會在5月"},{"start":9143.134,"end":9172.88,"text":"已經要求考試院提出公務人員學會法的修正草案那考試院已經在7月提出來大院也可以就新的學會法來審議那新的學會法應該也進步非常多包括連檻的降低包括學商4項從3項變成8項另外裁決機構的部分也都有做一些改進那更重要的就是"},{"start":9173.496,"end":9199.605,"text":"可以組特種協會也就是說警消是都可以組特種協會警察的特種協會還有消防人員的特種協會這樣的話對他們來講是滿重要的因為過去警消在中央可能要必須參加內政部的協會在地方就要參加各地方政府的協會那現在如果可以個別來組"},{"start":9201.651,"end":9229.368,"text":"專業的協會、特種協會的話就會對他們的訴求會比較聚焦所以這部分我們是認為說那既然考試院已經提出這樣的一個協會法會選行政院那也希望大院來就這個協會法來審議那至於裡面還有應該要再尊著或在修正地方那當然我們也會尊重大院的審議的結果"},{"start":9231.121,"end":9232.802,"text":"警消可以組特種協會但是在爭議權還是無法來行使對嗎那這個部分的話規劃要怎麼來處理嗎"},{"start":9246.793,"end":9261.785,"text":"因為爭議權就是所謂的罷工權的部分那因為剛有提到公務員都是在執行公權益跟人民的生命財產、公共安全沒有錯可是其實在國外我也看過消防員是可以罷工的啦"},{"start":9262.646,"end":9276.584,"text":"所以想要請教您針對這件事情的看法因為很多國家雖然警校可以參加工會那有些國家像韓國、英國警察是不能參加工會那日本、新加坡"},{"start":9277.995,"end":9298.095,"text":"警校人員都不能參加工會那另外有參加工會的部分很多國家也禁止罷工的所以像美國、德國他們都禁止工會人員來的相關的工會來罷工其實各國的規定不一樣那我們現在是希望朝著公務員協會法把它更精進"},{"start":9299.256,"end":9318.17,"text":"更能照顧警消人員的權益讓他們能夠在自己的特種協會裡面可以聚焦他們的權益、訴求可以比較有效果所以目前我們還是希望用公務人員協會法來作為一個比較妥善的解決方法"},{"start":9318.595,"end":9343.802,"text":"理解了那我想針對第二個部分就是有關於職安的部分因為其實民間也有在訴求就是說我們現在公務人員要適用職安法那目前人事總署其實有頒訂一個公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法來要求各機關要來訂定各機關員工安全及衛生防護要點來保障我們的公務員但是大家也在批評這只是一個要點"},{"start":9344.702,"end":9365.327,"text":"所以許多處理的機制就沒有相對的強制力就變成是看機關的狀況來決定但是我們的勞動部其實有要求相關的事業單位都是必須依據職安法的規定來提供勞工各式各樣的保障所以也必須提出相關的防護計畫否則就是一個違法"},{"start":9366.207,"end":9388.638,"text":"所以我們現在來看政府對於公務員的保障是不是也應該要考慮來適用呢那因為您一路從擔任這個保訓會的主委人事行政局的局長、權需部部長以及叫考試院的副院長我想您對於這個公務人員的人事法規相當的熟悉所以想請教您針對於公務人員適用職安法您的看法是什麼"},{"start":9389.394,"end":9403.761,"text":"因為公務員的工作環境跟一般勞工畢竟不太一樣但比較一樣的部分比如像工程的機關、教育業也就是公立學校還有倉儲運輸業另外各個娛樂休閒場館"},{"start":9409.947,"end":9439.147,"text":"交通的事業這部分目前也都是因為跟勞工的工作環境比較接近所以目前這五大類也都適用職安法好那我想問一下就是說所以您聽起來是部分相近的產業或是職業你會認為他是適用職安法對嗎目前是照勞動部的函式是適用職安法"},{"start":9439.909,"end":9440.99,"text":"公務人員保障法預計時程"},{"start":9464.474,"end":9472.741,"text":"您如果未來擔任考試院院長您希望大概在什麼時候來完成未來我能上任我們是希望下個會期能送到大宴來審議"},{"start":9475.435,"end":9502.468,"text":"好 了解那最後一個部分也想要來針對就是有關職場霸凌的部分目前我們職場霸凌其實是放在辦法和要點規範的內容那我想公共體系針對職場霸凌是必須要高度重視的尤其是近期我們剛剛講的這個憾事而且我現在也收到非常多的澄清所以這就更凸顯這問題的重要性跟急迫性可是我們的目前職場霸凌在相關的法規裡面其實是沒有定義的"},{"start":9504.088,"end":9526.241,"text":"勞動部歸納的定義就是這上面這幾項職場霸凌指的是在工作場合中同人間或主管及部署間的權利濫用與不公平對待例如像言語霸凌是公開羞辱、詆毀、貶低、責罵那行為霸凌就是故意刁難他的工作不合理的指令或孤立受害者權利的霸凌就是上級濫用職權對下屬進行不公平的對待或是過加"},{"start":9527.461,"end":9554.327,"text":"施加過度的壓力隱性霸凌是忽視他人並且在考核中不公平的評價或排除升遷機會所以大家其實有希望在公務人員保障法和公務人員考核法裡面去增加職場霸凌的條款那不曉得說您對於這個民間的建言未來如果您擔任考試院長的話你是否會啟動相關的延伤而且針對這個職場霸凌的定義你會優先來邀請學者一起來做相關的討論讓它徵定在法規之中嗎"},{"start":9555.311,"end":9582.571,"text":"因為職場霸凌的定義現在相關法規都沒有明確的定義那現在只能靠司法機關靠法院的判決來形成那每個法院的判決對於職場霸凌的定義都不一樣那其中譬如有一個高等法院的判決他是認為說職場霸凌就是以敵視、討厭、歧視的目的那用"},{"start":9585.069,"end":9593.364,"text":"除序性以及積極的行為來侵犯他人的人工權、名譽權、健康權但是也一定要達到"},{"start":9594.841,"end":9618.542,"text":"要達到社會公認上認為已經超過容忍的範圍所以每個法院的判決其實都不太一樣理解跟認知都會略有差異啦所以我們是不是應該積極的來邀請相關的專家學者來把這個事情定義的更明確對 如果要入法就要更慎重因為像性騷擾防治法對於性騷擾的定義"},{"start":9620.471,"end":9638.946,"text":"高達五行所以霸凌的部分我相信也是不是很容易定的但是我們會盡力來定一個更周延的一個法律我希望就是被提名的人如果未來您擔任考試院院長的話我希望您可以承諾這件事情一定會把它定入在法規之中可以嗎"},{"start":9641.151,"end":9660.357,"text":"對霸凌的部分我們會在公務人員保障法第19條的部分來做一些修正那另外在公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法裡面也會有如果有需要的話也會在那部分落一些條文"},{"start":9660.814,"end":9675.464,"text":"好 了解那我想就是說就是我想跟貝提敏做一個分析就是說為什麼我們在公務機關裡面非常容易發生這個職場霸凌的問題最主要我自己會認為有兩大項原因第一個就是階級分明權力集中"},{"start":9676.425,"end":9704.697,"text":"目前因為階級分明所以非常容易發生長官壓迫下屬而基層人員卻非常難對抗因為他其實不容易轉調甚至他們可能被轉調的時候他們想要調到其他部門的時候也會被刁難甚至會拉長他轉任的期間公務員又很擔心說如果他今天被刁難受不了他想要離開的時候他也會擔心他未來求職的問題所以變成在這個結構之下他非常難離開非常難脫身"},{"start":9706.178,"end":9724.776,"text":"好再來就是說許多公務人員其實並不知道自己如何有效反應霸凌他非常擔心他反應之後可能會遭受到報復或是孤立相對的一些懲罰雖然我現在是有收到一些民間的陳情他們是希望是不是可以建立一個"},{"start":9725.336,"end":9740.238,"text":"逆民的申訴機制我自己會想要聽聽看您的看法到底是逆民的機制或者是說我們可以建立一個什麼樣的安心申訴的一個機制讓他們可以好好的訴說不用擔心被報復"},{"start":9741.853,"end":9756.218,"text":"這部分在未來我們修法或者底下的執法我們會定比較詳細讓這些遭受霸凌的同仁有一個很正常的順序管道能夠獲得保障我們會盡量來做"},{"start":9757.95,"end":9784.273,"text":"您現在有沒有一些想法呢?初步的構想就是如何來建立這樣子的因為考試院主負責政策方向那實際執行都是由各部會在做那最細節的部分會由各部會他們會去徵詢專家隨著還有各方的意見或者是說那不然我有個建議啦是說我們是不是可以考試院可以成立一個職場霸凌防治小組呢?來負責相關業務的推動呢?這個部分可以嗎?"},{"start":9785.413,"end":9789.636,"text":"對那個其實公園園安全衛生防護半樓裡面"},{"start":9792.483,"end":9820.8,"text":"各機關都有一些防護小組那未來會提升到防護委員會這功能會使他更增強你剛說有一個防護委員會所以這防護委員會會設計在哪那個部門每個機關都會設可是現在大家擔心的就是單官官商戶的問題那當然如果是發生在首長考試院一個超然中立的單位是不是更適合來擔任這樣子的角色這樣大家才能夠更安心的申訴呢"},{"start":9821.638,"end":9848.192,"text":"通常如果是機關首長有發生這種情況是由上級機關他們會處理上級機關可是我想這次這個勞動部的案例就是發生了這樣子一層一層如果分市長有這方面的問題那應該由上級機關來處理還是說如果未來您因為我覺得站在我的看法上面我覺得考試院還是相對於大家來說它是分屬"},{"start":9849.252,"end":9867.743,"text":"他是不隸屬於行政院體系之下對大家來說是一個比較安心可以去申訴的管道所以我還是希望未來如果您擔任考試院長的時候是不是可以來研議來討論來設立一個職場霸凌的防治小組讓我們所有的公務人員真的可以安心的去申訴我希望可以考慮看看這樣可以嗎"},{"start":9868.464,"end":9891.013,"text":"是我們會就張委員所提的意見來研議看看看怎麼做會對所有公務人員會比較好對我想我們今天做這些討論啊都是未來希望怎麼樣可以更照顧我們的公務人員因為我想公務人員如果安心穩定的話國家也才能夠比較運作的更順利所以我想這是一個非常重要的我們必須要很重要很慎重的去看待他們的需求"},{"start":9892.033,"end":9910.123,"text":"那再來就是說我們現在其實在工時的部分因為前陣子我在追勞動部的這個案子的時候我發現有一個假打卡增加班的問題那我們現在公務人員服務法裡面的第12條第3項是這樣子寫的是每天不得超過12個小時"},{"start":9912.878,"end":9939.59,"text":"公務人員服務法是循序部主管的法規您過去也擔任過循序部部長對本法應該相當的熟悉同時您也擔任過人事行政局局長所以我想針對這個部分來跟您做個討論目前因為各個公務機關的業務量其實差異非常非常大有的單位像是衛福部跟勞動部其實他們的業務量非常大加班的時間就很長但是因為人事行政總署要控管大家加班所以就希望大家盡量不要加班"},{"start":9940.39,"end":9967.393,"text":"結果事情做不完：就發生我剛剛講的加打卡：增加班的狀況像這一張這個是週末的晚上這是衛福部的大樓衛福部的同仁跟我反應說他們內部戲稱這叫燈塔禮拜六晚上他們還是要加班到晚上9點07分燈火通明到了平常日如果我們講每天加班不超過12小時這是平常日昨天的晚上10點"},{"start":9968.98,"end":9990.197,"text":"衛福部還是燈火通明那上個禮拜其實我請人事行政總署要檢討但是他們回答我是說加班都需要控管啊單位要自己去研究啊要檢討相關的人力啊等等等等但我想這些管理的機制我也都支持啦但是最後承擔的其實反而是我們第一線的公務人員自行承擔"},{"start":9991.078,"end":10018.453,"text":"就像我剛剛講的假打卡增加班或是把工作帶回家所以我今天想要請教您就是說您在擔任人事行政局局長的時候就有推動行政院所屬中央機關學校員工協助方案推動計畫那表示您對公務員是相對支持的那未來您如果擔任考試院院長要怎麼解決公務人員過勞的問題呢我們是不是應該來檢討我們的人事法規或是要跟人事行政總署討論一個比較適宜的控管方案"},{"start":10019.353,"end":10030.009,"text":"我想如果人事法規跟公務員過勞有關係的部分我們會檢討當然我們也會跟人事總署來看有什麼方法來解決這些問題"},{"start":10031.155,"end":10057.461,"text":"我希望就是說因為上次我在跟人事總統在提這個意見的時候我覺得大家好像脫離了現實好多一直跟我回覆的就是說我們應該要怎麼去盤點人力等等的所以我希望到時候未來您如果去擔任考試院院長的時候我希望您可以到第一線請聽我們第一線公務員的聲音然後才能夠去務實的面對這些他們遇到的問題我們才能夠針對問題有一個更好的解決方案這部分可以嗎"},{"start":10058.263,"end":10068.235,"text":"我們會傾聽所有公務人員尤其是基層人員的聲音好那在下一個部分就是我們想要來針對就是因為我自己是非常關注育兒的這個議題"},{"start":10070.657,"end":10096.126,"text":"那我看到您過去在我看到這個2016年的10月6號的第374的人事月刊有提到說您對於弱勢族群和女性的工作權益都非常的關心像是每次的性平會議您都會親自主席這邊我必須給您一個大大的肯定那我也希望說未來您當任考試院長的時候可以持續的保持那今天講到這個性平的議題我就想要來跟您請討論一下"},{"start":10098.267,"end":10123.877,"text":"這個是我們行政院級所屬申請家庭照顧假的統計表男性跟女性的比例大概我們可以看出來是有個落差但總體來說請假比例只有25%那我不曉得說您對於這樣25%到底是高還是低因為其實這公務員是有有薪照顧假可是有有薪照顧假大概請假比例都是這樣子那不曉得說您覺得這樣您對這樣的數字的看法是什麼"},{"start":10125.214,"end":10145.809,"text":"因為要不要請家庭照顧家應該是每個公務同仁他們自己會決定我相信如果有需要的話應該這些同仁應該鼓勵他們來請這樣的一個假以兼顧工作跟家庭的生活我們是從正面的方的來看待"},{"start":10147.503,"end":10160.348,"text":"我想我們未來如果您擔任考試院院長的時候我們是不是可以來做一個可能調查好了我們來跟世界其他國家有有薪家庭照顧假的公務機關來說我們這樣子的數字到底是高還是低我們才能夠知道我們要努力的方向"},{"start":10161.597,"end":10185.475,"text":"我們可以做一些國際比較那我們才可以知道說到底我們差距還多遠啦好不好那再來就是說這個是警察的請假的數字那我想你可以看到雖然數字從110年開始有上升但是其實比例喔大概只有剛剛的三分之一是又更低的那我想這個也是一個我們需要去了解的為什麼我們的"},{"start":10186.716,"end":10204.193,"text":"警察在請假的時候明明我們都有一些友善的措施我們也都一直喊但是為什麼大家叫好不叫座所以我想這個部分就是延續剛剛的部分我們都是要做一個統整盤點更了解然後來對症下藥那最後一個部分"},{"start":10205.848,"end":10234.465,"text":"我想要針對這個兒童權利公約來跟被提名來做一個請求就是說其實我們這個國家有這個在103年11月20號我們其實已經施行了這個兒童權利公約施行法那其實兒童的權利有跟大家息息相關跟所有的兒童息息相關有句話叫做兒少事大家事那我希望未來您可以來推動一個兒權主流化讓各個部會各個部門的公務人員都能夠了解兒權法的核心其中有一個最重要的就是"},{"start":10235.225,"end":10260.646,"text":"我們現在的兒少生存發展是四大原則之一可是它占整體國家的比例只有不到1%代表我們公務人員對這個部分的想像非常的薄弱希望您可以未來好謝謝謝謝張委員謝謝貝提名人下一位請王宏威委員詢問"},{"start":10274.346,"end":10280.85,"text":"我想請教您在考試院也公職的時間非常長您覺得在我們的公家機關裡面霸凌的狀況嚴不嚴重"},{"start":10306.121,"end":10325.696,"text":"霸凌案件因為從保訓會受理的霸凌案件來看當然還是有很多的確實蠻多的而這一次勞動部的職場霸凌事件引起這麼大的一個風波當然主要是我們一個優秀的公務人員之死"},{"start":10326.653,"end":10337.499,"text":"但是事實上我們這幾年也並不僅僅只是勞動部發生了我想整理一下我們最近幾年我們的優秀的公務人員"},{"start":10338.717,"end":10360.088,"text":"因為霸凌事件而親身的案件數事實上是非常多了包括在2018年的時候當時也引起軒然大波我們駐大阪的處長舒啟臣處長自溢身亡這個部分事實上當時監察院也有完成調查"},{"start":10361.129,"end":10389.294,"text":"可是監察院當時在某一個程度為了要幫我們的駐日代表謝長廷先生能夠去免卻他的責任所以只是去要求檢討這個蘇處長他是不是身心俱疲選擇輕生好再來看這個在去年時間並不久遠去年的時候我們衛教部駐聖保羅辦事處的主長王之化先生墜樓身亡"},{"start":10391.295,"end":10402.786,"text":"這個調查 監察院也完成了調查而且監察院裡面調查的內容直指當時他的長官處長在職場裡面採用冷暴力"},{"start":10404.177,"end":10425.008,"text":"這種也是一種職場的霸凌我們今天可能看到謝宜蓉的事件是因為她在言語裡面可能是非常的兇或者是非常急促或者貶抑我們的員工但是以這個案件她的冷暴力比如說同一個辦公室她就是不跟他講話她都要讓別人去跟他傳話"},{"start":10426.609,"end":10448.986,"text":"當然這裡面還牽涉到他們的一些標案的問題同樣的外交部又有一個組長墜樓身亡好你以為這事情就只有在去年嗎事實上在8月份其實大概短短的4個月之前在我們的保發中心這是發生在一個工讀生"},{"start":10449.907,"end":10467.135,"text":"公讀生因為他要選擇去他希望能夠半工半讀繼續在這邊當公讀生然後他要到學校裡面去就讀碩士結果呢他的長官不允許而且用非常羞辱性的言論所以這個公讀生也因為"},{"start":10468.72,"end":10496.119,"text":"被職場霸凌而輕生然後11月4號這是勞動部發生的事情所以我要講的是在這麼短短的時間內這些不是只是職場霸凌而且是自殺身亡多麼嚴重所以我要請教我們的被提名人您認為我們現在的法令足以保護我們公務人員在職場裡面免受霸凌嗎"},{"start":10497.321,"end":10523.605,"text":"我也有注意到剛才您特別提到說你若擔任院長之後你要修正公務人員保障法對不對第19條可是請問一下被提名人你知道其實全序部針對公務人員考機法已經在針對職場霸凌已經提出修法的版本了嗎你知道嗎那為什麼你今天完全沒有提到呢"},{"start":10524.787,"end":10547.253,"text":"因為他是大概是在列在考機法裡面大概請問公務人員考機法不也是考試院所主管的嗎對他在列為層屬的其中一個要件沒錯那我就很訝異為什麼貝提賓人你只提到公務人員保障法而沒有提到考機法呢你支持修考機法嗎"},{"start":10548.561,"end":10575.777,"text":"考機法現在他們是修正草案裡面把它列進來對 已經列進來嗎對 那列進來我們當然是肯定說這樣做是你支持嗎當然支持所以你擔任院長之後如果你可以擔任院長你會立刻把公務人員考機法的修正草案送出來嗎就是針對有關於職場霸凌的你會送出來嗎對 考機法部分因為"},{"start":10578.224,"end":10591.71,"text":"他還有很多條文所以你支持我為什麼特別提到公務人員考機法待會我就要跟你討論到事實上當行政院長說現容兩大過免職"},{"start":10593.331,"end":10620.87,"text":"事實上以現行的公務人員考機法或懲戒法它事實上是有一些疑義的因為我們現在的公務人員考機法或者懲戒法完全沒有把職場霸凌納入嘛你們現在的修正草案事實上我支持的因為它不只是這個職場霸凌包含我們長期以來關心的譬如說有包含性騷對不對包含酒駕"},{"start":10622.211,"end":10643.281,"text":"包含獨駕對不對因為過去在我們的公職人員的這個考機法裡面公務人員考機法或承接法裡面沒有把它定得這麼明確但是我已經注意到你們現在考機法的這個草案修正所以我剛才一直在問這個提名人、被提名人你是不是支持因為所以"},{"start":10644.902,"end":10672.594,"text":"您支持把包含霸凌包含性騷包含酒駕、獨駕都列入考機代改善還有如果累計打兩大過就立刻退出、貶值你支持對,我們是支持把這些都列入考計劃裡面的項目之一那至於要列在哪一個層級那當然全系部他們會做審慎的思考所以啊"},{"start":10673.851,"end":10700.305,"text":"所以其實我就跟那個被提名的人說因為我剛才就覺得很奇怪你一直在提那個公共人員保障法哎呀 遠水救不了近火我覺得你公共人員考積法因為我們要懲處謝怡蓉的時候你要有工具啊那你們現在事實上全區部已經完成這樣的修正只是一直都沒有送出你考試院大門嘛所以你可以趕快把這公共人員考積法盡快"},{"start":10701.226,"end":10703.973,"text":"盡快的送出考試院大門 送到立法院可以嗎"},{"start":10705.322,"end":10733.168,"text":"除了這個條文當然沒問題但是因為涉及到其他條文比如說考機的等地等等那這部分可能全系部他們還要做一些延伸那我覺得至少這個部分為什麼我覺得有點急我們看到現在公務人員考機法第12條的部分他也是嘛他說除非有左列情況不得為一次計兩大過處分所以我剛才在講嘛"},{"start":10734.847,"end":10748.439,"text":"我們的卓院長說我要給他計兩大過處分然後我要讓他免職我要讓他終生不能夠被這個任用其實這不是行政院長說了算嘛因為公務人員經過國家考試"},{"start":10751.522,"end":10769.013,"text":"他本來就有相關的法令保護他所以現在以目前的公務人員考機法我擔心的是什麼呢我擔心的是看起來現在行政院好像幫他做一個最嚴重之處分但是"},{"start":10769.853,"end":10795.685,"text":"到時候他要真正的進入懲戒或者他也可以再來申訴未必辦得了他而變成是一個你在風頭上在風口浪尖上你只不過是一個做危機處理但是我們在法令上不夠周全而且他在整個的程序上或有瑕疵的一個狀況之下反而根本沒有辦法真正的去懲處謝怡榮"},{"start":10797.806,"end":10826.262,"text":"所以這就是為什麼我想在正好也趁現在今天的一個就是我們的一個答詢的狀況如果你有機會去擔任院長我希望能夠在公務人員考機法裡面趕快再做補強不用在未來我們做的這些職場的霸凌甚至造成公務人員或公讀生的輕生然後我們沒有法可以去辦它"},{"start":10827.816,"end":10854.602,"text":"是不是我們會朝這個方向來努力好另外呢我再請教這個被提名人你今天的報告書面所提出的報告第三段你的口頭報告五權憲法的設計將考試權獨立於行政權之外目的在於確保國家所辦理的公務人員選拔專技人員考試都能維持公平公正的優良傳統好所以我請問"},{"start":10856.062,"end":10864.751,"text":"這能不能視為被提名人對於五權憲法對於考試權的一個肯定跟捍衛"},{"start":10867.372,"end":10887.064,"text":"因為目前憲法目前的規範是這樣那這確實對於國家考試來講確實在考試院辦理的話人民多數國連同胞可能會比較信賴或者肯定所以考試院是有他的功能所以你在你的口頭報告裡面看起來肯定了考試權"},{"start":10888.663,"end":10915.339,"text":"但是剛才黃國昌委員也特別提到過去在2020年的時候那麼你曾經認為考試院不宜由考試員來表達一個捍衛考試權的態度那我想請問一下以今天此時此刻我剛才講的這一段是視之為你個人的捍衛考試權還能把它視之為是考試院的態度呢"},{"start":10917.079,"end":10933.937,"text":"因為我在口頭報告是我個人在審查程序中的一個意見所以我可以視之為你個人在這邊捍衛了考試權而且也肯定了考試權存在的一個功能和意義可以這樣講嗎"},{"start":10936.304,"end":10953.91,"text":"對可以但是要不要會考試院這是涉及憲法的修正當然是修憲但我剛講我要知道你的態度嘛對不對就像大法官來我們會問他你贊不贊成廢死對不對可是廢廢死還是要大法官去做釋憲啊但是我們要知道你個人所以"},{"start":10955.83,"end":10980.495,"text":"賴清德總統在他的總統選舉裡面雖然他其實比較避談於要不要廢考監可是他也確實他有很明確的說他支持廢考監所以你認為你的態度跟賴清德總統的態度有不一樣嗎應該不會衝突因為我是認為說考試院有他"},{"start":10981.786,"end":11003.5,"text":"在憲法體制中存在的價值而且辦理國家考試也取得人民的信賴但是考試院因為考試院還有很多職權考試部分都是考試院辦理沒有錯但是其他人事行政的部分會跟行政院有一些職權劃分的問題那這部分很多人倡議說兩個機關要合併之類的那你繼續考試院跟行政院合併嗎"},{"start":11010.989,"end":11025.777,"text":"這部分我們是尊重大院的提議還有你個人呢你支持嗎因為你剛剛講到說有一些有重複的所以有人支持考試跟行政院合併你支持嗎對我們都尊重最後公民投票的結果"},{"start":11026.502,"end":11043.899,"text":"我覺得被提名人講話事實上是有在迴避前面看起來你是願意捍衛考試權的存在但是後面我講了賴清德總統我就覺得你這個有一些迴避了所以我本來是想問你你是不是認為你可能是末代的考試院院長"},{"start":11046.99,"end":11074.645,"text":"因為是受及憲法修正那我沒有辦法在這邊做另外因為有一些廣大的公教人員會退休的軍公教人員非常關心的我要一一請問你你是當年的年改小組的成員那我相信你當時也親自參與了年金改革的部分但是現在退休軍公教提出就是有關於所得替代率的遞減"},{"start":11075.706,"end":11100.523,"text":"應該因為已經進入了已經好多年了所以是不是可以停止這個所得替代率的遞減你同意嗎因為如果停止所得替代率會使整個基金的財務狀況會比較不好所以這部分當然我們會傾聽各界的意見那當然這部分要做比較慎重的選擇"},{"start":11102.196,"end":11129.61,"text":"所以你個人是可以可以來做請聽跟討論的嗎還是說你不行因為當年年金改革就是這樣子已經定下去了因為這涉及到基金的財務狀況那以現在的財務狀況雖然有改善但是到140年還是會有用慶所謂破產的危機那這部分真的要非常的慎重"},{"start":11130.848,"end":11142.713,"text":"所以你現在是以就是未來還是有破產危機所以不讓這個軍公教的這個所得替代率可以現在可以停止因為他們事實上已經被砍了很多啦是因為降低的話當然對他們的所得會影響沒錯"},{"start":11149.584,"end":11171.515,"text":"這一部分我覺得就是我們的政府其實我們當時就是說說以財政啊說財政紀律然後呢財政的理由來砍軍公教年金但是我們在另外一方面譬如馬上就推出前瞻計劃還有很多的特別預算將近兩兆的特別預算"},{"start":11172.375,"end":11173.436,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":11201.616,"end":11227.715,"text":"警消跟軍人的職務的性質並不是很一樣那因為軍人他役期短那退離早那退離率高所以才會設計另外設計一套退休的制度這是因為當時年金改革委員會所有委員都同意把軍人的部分另外獨立來處理那當時並沒有處理到警消人員"},{"start":11228.055,"end":11253.146,"text":"沒錯 但是我們現在可以看到不管我們警消這個族群其實它的危險性也是相當高的那不管是我們有些重大的社會治安事件還有一些重大的火災事件我們也可以看到他們事實上是他們的危險性並不下於軍人所以這個部分你個人是不同意去比照軍人的嗎"},{"start":11254.921,"end":11257.223,"text":"所謂的在職所得的增加是怎麼樣設計呢?"},{"start":11278.183,"end":11302.023,"text":"你退休所得不能夠去比照軍人你是要債值所得有增加也沒有特別增加呀對債的所得譬如說警察他有警勤加急之類的其他所得那因為退休以後大家的生活方式大致一樣所以退休金在計算的時候就只計算本份和年資沒有把債值的危險性"},{"start":11303.032,"end":11329.353,"text":"或者辛苦度或者貢獻度把它計算在內所以都退休所得都不計算主管家級也不計算職務家級也不計算專業家級所以整個退休所得的設計是朝向用蝙蝠還有蓮汁來計算所以我們是認為說各類人員不只是警校人員如果他們在主場上有更辛苦"},{"start":11331.544,"end":11357.89,"text":"貢獻更大、犧牲更大的話那如果能在在職的時候給他們待遇那這部分應該比在推銷所以你支持是錦銷部分當他們在職的時候提高他的在職所得對,這部分因為是人事行政總署還有財主單位的權限我們只是說整個推銷的制度它的設計是這樣"},{"start":11360.492,"end":11366.958,"text":"如果在退休的部分做一些變動的話那可能會產生比較大的問題比如說"},{"start":11368.547,"end":11393.03,"text":"警校跟一般公務人員大家腳會一樣但是如果退休的時候臉不一樣那這就會有公務人員我們還是會爭取因為警校軍人很辛苦那軍人他的服役的時間確實也比較短但是呢這個警校他在整個社會上他事實上承擔比較危險的工作那不管在治安上"},{"start":11393.69,"end":11411.919,"text":"還有尤其我們這幾年﹐很多的重大的這個火災現場﹐我們可以看到我們的打火兄弟的犧牲﹐那我們也是覺得﹐其實在錦霄退休所得的部分﹐應該要去比照軍人﹐這部分事實上﹐在這個族群裡面﹐其實他們也是希望我們能夠幫他們爭取﹐"},{"start":11413.44,"end":11413.72,"text":"公錦霄組工會"},{"start":11436.741,"end":11463.589,"text":"我剛才有聽到您的回答是說如果主公會會有問題的產生然後我們現在有公務人員協會法所以今天有關於公警消主公會現在看起來被提名人是不挺的囉對 因為大院的未還委員會已經在5月希望考試院提出公務人協會法的"},{"start":11464.696,"end":11492.19,"text":"草案出來那7月我們已經提出去了那我們是希望在公務人員協會法裡面增強警消他們在這部分的權益那這部分確實其中最重要的一條就是讓警消可以組織特種的協會不然以前警消都必須參加內政部所以您支持協會的話也只是支持警消組特種協會那其他"},{"start":11509.298,"end":11537.271,"text":"好 謝謝王委員 謝謝被提名人報告全院委員會本日上午對考試院院長被提名人周弘憲尋答部分到此為止謝謝周被提名人弘憲列席答詢下午2點30分繼續開會進行對考試院副院長被提名人許舒翔質詢問現在休息"},{"start":21250.387,"end":21264.564,"text":"報告全院委員會現在繼續開會今天下午審查考試院副院長被提名人許舒翔之資格及是否私人相關事項現在請被提名人許舒翔先生說明時間為10分鐘"},{"start":21280.495,"end":21289.443,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生國家發展是以人才為本依憲法增修條文第6條規定．考試院執行考試"},{"start":21293.402,"end":21318.789,"text":"公務人員前夕保障、補夕、退休．及任免考機疾控、升遷報獎之法之事項等．重大憲政職責．國家考試為國舉裁．包括公務人員以專門職業及技術人員考選．公務人員為國家文官是政府政策規劃與執行者．在政府促進國家發展和為民服務的施政作為中．扮演至關重要的角色．"},{"start":21319.449,"end":21347.132,"text":"而專機人員所從事之工作與公共利益或人民之生命身心健康、財產等權利有密切關係其職業素養是提升社會安全穩定發展和人民生命財產健康保障的重要磐石因此考試院考選的公務人員與專機人員皆是推動國家社會經濟向上發展以提升為民服務效能的重要國家人才"},{"start":21348.428,"end":21375.696,"text":"個人今日能以考試院第十四屆副院長．被提名人的身份．到大院進行報告．以接受審查行答．感到莫大榮幸亦深感責任之重大個人過去長期在市立大專校院．負責學校教育行政工作．以105年轉任公職到考選部．擔任政務次長．並於108年10月接任部長．負責考選行政工作長達八年之久"},{"start":21376.351,"end":21402.784,"text":"學校教育行政與考選行政兩項行政工作雖有不同的業務範圍但共同的目標皆是為國家社會培育考選優秀人才為為國用因此更在擔任考選部長時更加深感教考信用連結合作之重要性及其加強以教育端和用人端訓練端合作共同為國擠財"},{"start":21405.046,"end":21424.385,"text":"近年來﹐考試院除以積極加強與大學聯結培育公務人才﹐並亦以合作增加電腦化測驗認證市場﹐以擴大適用電腦化測驗之考試類科和加速國考數位轉型﹐另外提升公務人員考試效能和擴大用人機關參與﹐積極"},{"start":21426.743,"end":21451.543,"text":"減併公務人員考試應試科目．增加考試及調整占分比重．並為改善偏鄉離島用能流財推動離島特考．加上精進車院技術發展等．多項多元考試變革方案．已經逐漸開展．又為加強引進．以流用專技人才．補強公務體系的技術量能．除了調整公職專技人員考試方式之外．並修正"},{"start":21452.789,"end":21472.847,"text":"專門職業及技術人員轉任公務人員條例．放寬專技人才轉任公職及提升轉任以留任之誘因在健全文官體制以建立友善公務職場環境上．近年來考試院也進行了諸多的努力．如全文修正的公務員服務法．提升公務人員服務公職的健康檢疫保障．"},{"start":21473.567,"end":21491.781,"text":"及配合時代社會變遷需求﹐適當調整﹐放寬公務員職務上義務﹐以兼顧公務人員工作與生活之衡平﹐配合友善生養政策﹐也修改放寬限制轉調規定﹐及修正公務人員留職停薪﹐辦法營造兩性平衡的生養﹐"},{"start":21492.645,"end":21521.361,"text":"友善公務職場環境修正公務人員保障法第23條．對於公務人員之操食、扶勤、徵訂．合理的補償方式．為加強保障公務人員因公發生意外．傷亡潛意．以修改法規．增加慰問金發放的額度．為強化公務人員工作績效是重要性．也修法以強化公機導向之升遷制度．為112年7月1日以後出任公務人員．立確定．"},{"start":21521.943,"end":21544.125,"text":"提撥制和個人專戶制的新退伍制度．並修正公務人員退休之前府系法．增訂公務人員繳戶資退伍基金費用．不記錄課稅及修正調整業退休金．業府系金及移組年金之規範．以加強照顧公務退休人員從以上列舉的都項改革．可見考試院近年來．"},{"start":21544.881,"end":21563.904,"text":"對於完善考選制度及政府文官體制的努力．但是制度的改革沒有最好．只能更好．以因應社會時代的變遷．因此個人對於健全文官體制．能有若干可能尚未完全成熟的想法．其能以未來聽聽社會各界的意見．進行必要的改善"},{"start":21564.571,"end":21592.963,"text":"如地方政府尤其是輝六都的縣市長期缺少．高階檢任及文官之職缺．影響地方用人留才自濟．也會造成中央機關與地方政府．人才雙向交流之障礙．未來其能有調整空間．另外其能藉由國家文官學院．選拔優秀年輕的中階文官．至海外進行短期一地訓練．加強其領導與專業潛能的發展．以吸引更多優秀青年．"},{"start":21593.869,"end":21616.866,"text":"進入公部門服務提升政府施政之效能在考試制度方面國家考試是社會人才向上垂直流動及保障特定族群就業潛意志重要管道因此對於維持國家考試的公平公正體制的設計不可不慎未來豈能在近年來考選革新的基礎上整併公務人員考試"},{"start":21617.682,"end":21641.213,"text":"行政內科導入信項測驗﹐加強用能機關﹐高階優秀文官參與公務人才考選﹐以選拔既有學習發展潛力的公務人才﹐協助政府處理解決日益增加的跨領域問題另外,其能在考試院設置國家考試測驗中心﹐以強化國家人才考試的信效度﹐提升考選效能"},{"start":21642.851,"end":21671.557,"text":"過去個人在考選部．擔任政務次長及部長期間．參加第12屆及第13屆考試院團隊．積極推動為國籍材質考選業務．維護國家考試公平公正公開．並轉型為稱職的國家人力資源部門．培育現代政務首席之治理人才．深感教考信用合作整合的重要現蒙總統提名為．第十四屆考試院副院長．若能獲大宴通過當竭力協同"},{"start":21672.182,"end":21699.362,"text":"院長及考試委員從縣級的角度加強跨縣部會教考信用制合作建立更完善的文官體制為國選賢己能以行公益好憐憫存謙卑的心為國家社會人民服務貢獻以上報告敬請大院各位委員支持指教謝謝各位委員謝謝被提名人"},{"start":21700.656,"end":21712.907,"text":"現在進行委員詢問每位委員詢答時間20分鐘採疑問疑答方式進行輪到詢問委員如不在場視為棄權首先請楊委員求因詢問"},{"start":21721.824,"end":21734.732,"text":"院會主席、我們敬愛的江副院長以及被提名者我們的考試院的副院長、提名者楊卓銘發言首先邀請被提名者我們請被提名人"},{"start":21741.786,"end":21762.083,"text":"年金改革的影響與未來的調整策略本席要請問你要如何的去評估年金改革對於公務員群體的一個影響那如果未來政策需要做調整的時候你認為應該要優先去調整哪一些的問題請做說明"},{"start":21765.945,"end":21790.294,"text":"謝謝我想我的了解是當年年輕改革有它的時空背景那事實上當年也有一些這個年輕的公務員他們也蠻擔心這個年輕改革如果不進行改革的話是不是等到他們要退休的時候會有領不到這個退休金的問題所以進行了相關的調整當然這些調整當然也會造成一些"},{"start":21791.627,"end":21817.675,"text":"推銷人員的這個影響所以我講到重點了對他們有的是股市經做有的金市股做對他們一個契約的信賴度是不夠完整的所以本市再一次請教你也點出那個問題也就是你認為如果需要進一步做調整你認為你應該要優先會處理哪一些的問題呢所以跟委員報告我了解目前的"},{"start":21819.476,"end":21837.266,"text":"這個年輕改革制度裡面有規範兩個調整的空間一個就是每四年要檢討一次那另外就是這個消費者物價指數如果累計達到百分之政府百分之五副院長你現在所說的都是目前的ING進行式"},{"start":21838.226,"end":21862.931,"text":"如果未來你真的當上了副院長的時候你預計你看到現在的面向民眾公務人員他是不安心的不管是在警、公、教他這個都不安心的情況之下你認為如果需要調整你會調整哪些問題優先調整哪些問題針對本席的議題提問我想當然目前我的了解"},{"start":21864.071,"end":21883.183,"text":"調整的方案有幾個面向那還有一個部分是也許大家比較關心是所得替代力的問題那目前是原來規劃就是10年每一年逐年調降1.5%那這個目前應該是執行到一半還有5年的時間還沒有執行"},{"start":21886.396,"end":21913.928,"text":"所以你認為所得替代欲是你未來如果當上這個位置你認為應該要優先去考慮去調整、去檢討的一個問題這個部分的調整我想需要有進一步的精算那也要尋求社會的共識還有對現職公務人員的影響我的了解是政府事實上在年金改革之後到目前為止對現職公務人員的這個薪資的調整已經調了"},{"start":21914.724,"end":21914.864,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":21937.557,"end":21963.211,"text":"到底會是怎麼樣子我想這些應該要有數據精算的一個評估好 謝謝你的回答因為現在包括公教也希望政府來撥補100億陸續那如果說哪個空缺就要政府來撥補而不是在整個制度面來做調整那本席認為還不是你當上這個副院長切入的議題"},{"start":21964.051,"end":21986.684,"text":"所以本席再請教那在這樣的情況之下是不是應該去整理一套有制度面而且希望能夠正式入法而不是哪裡缺就哪裡要撥補我想我們的軍、工、警、教它不是去這裡啊它有它的榮耀啊它必須要有制度你贊成這樣的方向嗎"},{"start":21988.61,"end":22002.878,"text":"我贊成整體的思維因為有些改革不是從單一個面向去看好 整體的思維本席也希望能夠聽到你的見解能夠聽到你的見解因為我再次強調我們的警攻教軍他不是騎車"},{"start":22004.059,"end":22022.201,"text":"他是奉獻了一生他應當要有所得應當要這個榮耀所以我們希望政府應該要給他們一個榮耀也就是制度面的榮耀這是本期第一個提問接下來本期要請問退伍基金的一個永續經營政府經常告訴我告訴社會大眾說有進步都不會倒"},{"start":22024.554,"end":22041.529,"text":"突然這個這樣的口號我認為讓民眾已經疲乏而且這也不是一個有為政府應該講的話語而是要真正的怎麼樣讓人民有感讓人民有所保障所以本校請教面對退伍基金財力的壓力"},{"start":22042.23,"end":22061.936,"text":"你有哪一些的建言可以來強化我們整個基金運作的效益那你是不是會考慮更多元的投資方式或者是制度的調整現在都告訴我們四大基金只要政府一聲令下進股市就誤盤我覺得這個不是一個非常"},{"start":22064.156,"end":22088.582,"text":"這個正確的一個方向協助政府是應當但是如果以這個為主力這是不是對我們整個這個這個層面以及制度來講是不榮耀的所以本需要請教你認為目前我們的退伍基金要如何的來永續經營是不是應該可以有多元的一個投資或者是制度的調整請做說明是"},{"start":22089.858,"end":22100.456,"text":"我的了解這個退伍基金事實上沒有進場護盤這件事不過退伍基金目前的一個操作經營方式一部分是委辦"},{"start":22101.736,"end":22125.447,"text":"一部分是自行應用投資當然他有他的資產配置的一個調整你的一句話沒有進場互攀這句話本是不認同國家本來就是大家要團結有困難大家互相幫助但是你今天是提名人你馬上否決了目前政府在做那我不知道未來你要怎麼跟政府來做溝通讓人民有信賴有感"},{"start":22126.027,"end":22135.821,"text":"所以我再次提出你有什麼樣的方案你認為可以多元的方式來投資或者是制度面的調整"},{"start":22137.188,"end":22155.832,"text":"所以這幾年事實上整個的一個投資績效是不錯的不過坦白說這個績效不錯一方面是整個大環境事實上整個股市你這麼回答本來是不認同目前我們的投資報酬率是13點多我們最高有19點多所以請你在我們退伍基金"},{"start":22156.252,"end":22174.046,"text":"永續經營的這一塊你要多琢磨因為你如果說是不錯已經告訴你有討論的空間有提升的空間本期是希望以下我們所做的討論能夠聽到你的論點接下來本期要請問醫療人力與波波醫生的問題這幾天是時事議題"},{"start":22177.128,"end":22193.43,"text":"那麼偏鄉的部分在邱部長這邊他也在上個禮拜在未完委員會他也特別提出希望以本國的為主希望以本國的國籍的為主以本國籍我們的一師為主那至於偏鄉的部分給予"},{"start":22194.151,"end":22195.132,"text":"副院長：第11屆院長："},{"start":22211.081,"end":22231.486,"text":"伊健以及婆婆醫生最後還是要回到你這邊來國考所以本席要請教你認為考試院應該要怎麼樣協助因為都上了街頭時事新聞那麼你要怎麼樣協助相關的政策跟制度的改變來保障偏鄉居民基本的醫療的一個權益請做說明"},{"start":22234.816,"end":22260.668,"text":"考選部辦理這邊醫師的考試基本上都是依照醫師法的規定來進行應考資格的審查那醫師的考試事實上他經過考選部第一階段考試之後還有一個實習的階段那經過實習之後才有第二次國家考試第二次國家考試之後才成為副院長你努力的在背目前政府的政策"},{"start":22261.588,"end":22280.048,"text":"那既然你是新提名的副院長你應該有你的論點因為如果目前的政策是非常OK的那麼不會有這個時事新聞不會有大遊行當然我們是一個民主國家各自有各自的論點但是本期還是希望你針對於"},{"start":22281.209,"end":22308.892,"text":"目前上街頭各自所見的這樣的一個情境民主國家一旦有不一樣的論點應該政府要去討論我們的制度有哪些是必須要去做調整這是本席給你的提問也給你的功課我希望你好好的去思考或許以前我們有所謂公費這個保障生那是不是也可以用這種制度大力去推廣"},{"start":22309.532,"end":22334.64,"text":"以保障偏鄉的醫療不足的部分是否可行你應該要好好的去研議而不是只有告訴我們目前現在正在做的這個制度我希望以下的討論希望可以聽到你的論點接下來本校請教國家考試的公平性跟學歷認證那麼國內外有的認證有的不認證有的甚至回來他忘記了要去採證"},{"start":22336.22,"end":22363.359,"text":"還要再去license 確認一下所以在這樣的情況之下我們國內外學歷的認證標準有時候會去引起了一個爭議那你認為在考試院在制定國家考試的規則的時候你要怎麼樣去確保它的一個公平性以避免特定群組的不公平待遇就成如這個禮拜上個禮拜"},{"start":22365.66,"end":22386.873,"text":"一是這個大概引起了各方兩方的論戰跟遊行那這樣子會產生不公平的一個議題產生的時候特定群組那你未來你的考試院你認為要怎麼樣去調整這個制度可以讓他的公平性得以確保請做說明"},{"start":22388.843,"end":22404.561,"text":"我想國家考試不管專居人員或者是公務員的考試像公務員相關的考試資格也定在公務員考試法醫師的部分就定在醫師法這一部分就我們所見到的問題我們當然會提供給衛福部做參考"},{"start":22405.049,"end":22433.912,"text":"那這個不過當然考選部不是這個醫護人員的一個主管機關啦但是碰到問題我們一定會協助像布里斯請暫停你的回答本期不希望聽到這樣子的一個論點說明因為我們在這裡非常理性的希望可以聽到你的見解你的見解而不是說考試院不是這個醫師的主管機關單位大家都知道但是問題是最後的國考在你這邊啦"},{"start":22434.833,"end":22452.582,"text":"所以我還是希望能夠聽到你的論點給社會大眾去了解要讓我們的社會大眾我們的國民可以怎麼樣安心有一個公平性的權益請再說明所以如果是從我這邊辦理專屬國家考試的觀點"},{"start":22456.384,"end":22481.651,"text":"當然尤其醫師醫護人員都直接關係到人民的一個生命那偏鄉我也知道偏鄉的醫療之前是比較缺乏所以我們怎麼樣子照顧到國人這應該是最優先的一個考量那如果說我們本國的醫生就已經足夠了那當然我們所培養的醫生都相當優秀當然是優先考量但是"},{"start":22482.403,"end":22509.589,"text":"波波這個問題其實也不是只有我們台灣存在這個問題我曾經在次長的時候到芬蘭那邊去做這一方面的一個瞭解芬蘭他們自己有培養自己醫學院的學生但是他們也用了不少是波波就是到波蘭學醫學回到波蘭那邊去職業醫生專業上他們當然有把關另外他們會加考"},{"start":22511.274,"end":22525.305,"text":"這個你去波蘭學但是你回來要考這個波蘭的語言波蘭大概有兩種主要語言是波蘭語跟瑞典語你要在語言上面這邊把關因為醫病的關係你一定要會他們當地的語言才有辦法去這個職業"},{"start":22527.526,"end":22552.285,"text":"所以我想我們不要因為一個個案那牽絆否定那我相信能夠通過國家考試那後面又有外部還有相關專業一個養成你要成為外科、內科這些專業養成這部分不是考選部負責那我相信也會有一些表現不錯的"},{"start":22553.359,"end":22576.613,"text":"那我知道現在因為這些問題所以有一些我了解因為回來通過第一階段考試之後像牙醫師他沒辦法實習嘛他如果等個五年可能就廢掉我知道目前也有人就直接在國外就業了他就在英國去做牙醫師本席還是請你先再調整一下你的思緒"},{"start":22577.847,"end":22599.708,"text":"因為你現在所說的你很用心把世界各國的樣態舉例進來但是本席仍舊要提醒你是目前考試院的副院長的提名人你是針對我中華民國臺灣我們國家目前的現狀你的制度要怎麼去做你不是民意代表"},{"start":22600.709,"end":22630.189,"text":"只有敘述你應該是要有你的論點跟你的制度怎麼樣的說法能夠得到委員的同意這才是我們今天運用了這麼多的時間跟你討論也希望聽到你的說明所以我仍舊希望聽到你未來如果擔任考試院副院長你認為考試院針對目前既有的制度但是引起了遊行跟引起了討論那你有什麼樣的制度去做調整這是本席要聽的"},{"start":22631.129,"end":22635.011,"text":"現在大家都很清楚目前的狀態賴清德總統也說了目前我們的執行程度也就是每一年55名"},{"start":22658.263,"end":22683.661,"text":"或不學生那就按照制度去排隊不可以再增加目前的樣態是如何如此所以本期也希望台灣目前的現況你應該多了解那要怎麼樣去制度調整這是我們要的好嗎這是希望你多費點心那接下來本期要跟你討論的是行政中立與人事制度的一個調整"},{"start":22684.341,"end":22707.52,"text":"行政中立行政中立是最高的一個原則也就是民主的真諦對不對對那所以呢你如何看待在考試院要推動人事制度改革的時候維持行政中立的重要性那麼是否有具體的做法來平衡整個政治跟專業的需求"},{"start":22708.18,"end":22730.642,"text":"目前台灣社會裡頭有很多人會說政治壽命本期不希望聽到這個因為國家的公務人員是非常的重要一切都是在公務人員在做吸取民意去調整制度出來方向出來大家團結努力去做但是如果加上政治考量而非專業"},{"start":22731.883,"end":22757.835,"text":"委員長請教提名人你認為在你的人事佈局當中的重力是不是應該要以專業的立場來做最重要的考量請說說明專業的這個考量當然是重要但是我知道到這個檢任級官員以上事實上他的職職系的流通放得比較寬"},{"start":22759.826,"end":22782.131,"text":"這頁高階他強調的可能是跨領域的整合這一方面的專業能力而不是單一專業的能力所以我想這些的部分也是我們在人才選拔還有這個培訓上所以請教在你這個行政重力當中在你的制度你認為政治考量比較重要還是專業考量比較重要"},{"start":22783.325,"end":22800.895,"text":"我覺得在文官體系當然要專業考量對就這個專業考量能夠為國家做事情這是非常重要我們不希望只有政治任命沒有他的專業考量你會維持這個立場吧我們選拔的是國家的文官不是任何政黨的文官"},{"start":22802.436,"end":22821.07,"text":"這句話我聽到你願意要以行政中立跟人事制度方面是要以專業考量這個是國家非常重要的必要因素因為你如果沒有專業考量那這個可能整個會歪樓啦我們不希望如此做那請教"},{"start":22821.95,"end":22841.067,"text":"目前我們到現在為止你所看待的我們的政府在行政中立跟人事制度的調整剛剛我們已經討論出一個方向是要以專業考量非常好那你認為到目前為止我們考試院還有政府還有什麼需要做調整的你認為呢聽好上家好請說明"},{"start":22846.468,"end":22868.751,"text":"我想當然這個未來在文官的培訓這一方面像這個鑑認生檢認這個高階文官部分目前是完全有訓練這一部分那這個各機關推薦到保訓會這邊來這個完成授訓之後取得這個生檢認的一個官等"},{"start":22869.031,"end":22884.38,"text":"那這一方面我想我們也會更加建立他對於整個國家忠誠度這一方面那維持行政中立這一方面的一個這個做法跟作為以國家的發展以人民的利益為優先"},{"start":22885.556,"end":22905.857,"text":"這個非常重要因為最後我要給你一個數據告訴你我們以前就是說好好的讀書考上了公務人員好好歸正在恰瑪座是世界棒的非常非常的榮耀但是我們卻發覺最近這幾年來他這個榮耀感似乎沒那麼多"},{"start":22906.878,"end":22927.496,"text":"市府沒那麼多那同時要來參這個考試的也沒那麼多這個比例所以由數字可以告訴我們他是在往下降的除了榮耀沒有這麼多那麼參加考試的也沒那麼多這個原因到底出在哪裡尤其現在少子化整個社會的面態、面向"},{"start":22929.498,"end":22938.865,"text":"我覺得本席認為我們公務人員是至高無上我們希望給他們榮耀以他們的專業來做事情讓國家強大一起加油好謝謝楊委員謝謝貝提名人下一位請張祺凱委員詢問"},{"start":22986.377,"end":23010.378,"text":"來先請副院長備提名人我們請備提名人許先生答詢委員長備提名人好我先請你看一個畫面齁幾個月剛剛全國的焦點都在這個勞動部這個霸凌這個案子左邊這個花"},{"start":23012.284,"end":23032.727,"text":"有很多民眾還有包括被霸凌親身的公務員的朋友他們到勞動部送花致哀我看了一幅畫跟他們拍回來的照片我非常的感動這個照片上面說送給老吳老吳就是這個不幸的公務員"},{"start":23033.888,"end":23062.194,"text":"我們沒有忘記你的善良你總是處處替人著想卻不說其實你也遍體淋傷左邊這一個讓我看了更心疼更心痛了那個公務人員說嘛他說我是公務人員我想好好活著副院長被提名人你今天被提名了你看到這幾個字特別是我們的公務員想要好好活著"},{"start":23063.186,"end":23075.656,"text":"不是只有勞動部這段時間衛福部、中友台電那個霸凌案件這麼多你看了有沒有很心疼有沒有想要怎麼樣去保障我們的公務員我想這個"},{"start":23078.987,"end":23098.085,"text":"發生這樣的事件尤其我們這位優秀年輕公務員的不幸當然是站在尤其是我過去負責考選公務人才一直在積極鼓勵公務員年輕優秀人才加入公部門來服務感受特別的深"},{"start":23098.993,"end":23116.867,"text":"所以希望這個如果是因為霸凌產生這樣的一個不幸事件希望以後在公部門不要再發生這種事情我們今天要談的就是怎麼樣不要再發生這樣的憾事我們要來建立反霸凌的一個安全網可是我必須講"},{"start":23118.24,"end":23145.233,"text":"你以前是考選部的部長阿你應該有很大的責任喔你今天責任又更重了副院長的被提名人我們要問這個安全網為什麼一直有大的這個漏洞我們來看一下這個辦法公務金管的安全跟衛生防護辦法這是科技營的辦法對不對你看一下這個保障的這個措施一共有四項對不對你看它違反了幾項這次光是勞動部這個霸凌事件違反了幾項"},{"start":23148.254,"end":23174.837,"text":"第2項輪班、夜間工作、長時間工作等異常工作﹑負荷﹑觸發疾病的預防他有沒有長時間工作有對不對現在披露的真相這個老吳吳姓公務員很多時間早上5點就上班了晚上8點才下班他還必須要被迫腳打卡增加班"},{"start":23176.121,"end":23202.251,"text":"這老公怎麼這麼慘被霸凌成這樣子違反了這個辦法的第二項對不對第三項有沒有違反有我個人有在第三項你看一下你念一次執行指路怎麼樣精神上、身體上應該都會有壓力遭受身體或精神不法的侵犯的預防他有沒有受到身體跟精神上不法的侵犯"},{"start":23203.993,"end":23222.518,"text":"有嘛所以剛剛第二項已經違反了你們考試院訂了一個法他違反了第二第三條的第二項第三項第四項也沒有違反第四項也違反啊那我就要問啊北裡面您科技提出的辦法出來為什麼沒辦法落實"},{"start":23224.787,"end":23224.847,"text":"主席"},{"start":23244.072,"end":23268.607,"text":"觀念更認為這個圖法不足以執行所以你再有完善的法規如果是你不去執行好好的執行落實事實上有這個法規也沒用就像我們最近有放寬了這個工人這個限制轉調限制轉調讓有生小孩的他為了照顧小孩可以提前去做轉調但是"},{"start":23270.978,"end":23291.883,"text":"他可以提出申請但是機關首長不准這個就是全國民眾現在要問你跟問考試院的你們為什麼訂了一個法又有一個辦法結果來發生不是只有勞動部的這個霸凌事件全國有那麼多他至少有兩個點嘛第一個等一下我們進一步來討論你們的法裡面沒有法則嘛"},{"start":23293.67,"end":23319.7,"text":"沒有行政監督也沒有行政方案我們要進一步來討論要怎麼來立這個法修這個法好不好那我們先來看因為有這樣的缺失所以今天我們等一下希望你可以明確的承諾你如果當選了你接了這個副院長之後你怎麼去把這個安全網把它補起來這是你今天的重責大任那我進一步先給你看因為這個漏洞一直都沒有補對台灣發生多大的傷害你看看一條人命"},{"start":23321.973,"end":23350.291,"text":"丟臉就丟到國外去了連新加坡的聯合早報都在說說臺灣啊酷吏重創臺灣的人權形象我們這幾天那麼高興我們終於棒球隊得了冠軍回來現在臺灣人多團結多快樂啊可是想到這個都心酸你看那個南華南華早報那下他說嘛"},{"start":23351.411,"end":23371.517,"text":"他直接批評說臺灣政府部門的官僚霸凌其實就是官官相輔的一個文化還有包庇刑境不只是霸凌善刑、恨刑喔他裡面講的是什麼臺灣來官官相輔臺灣現在的各個部會為什麼出現這種狀況為什麼這麼嚴重"},{"start":23378.732,"end":23394.976,"text":"跟委員報告坦白說這個法制的部分不足的部分當然是要想辦法再努力來補足不過就現行的法制像霸凌這個問題尤其是我講實話這個以勞動部是主管這個"},{"start":23401.28,"end":23416.315,"text":"企業職場霸凌的這個機關他們對所謂的職場霸凌應該是更有警覺性更有敏感度才對那這個問題可以放這麼久我肯定你你長久是為這個社會付出很多特別考檢部長你也是非常努力的"},{"start":23417.196,"end":23441.239,"text":"可是今天這個爆發出來這個不是只有勞動部的霸凌事件你看這樣雨後春筍一堆擺起來對不對這個已經是一個非常嚴重問題丟人就丟到國外去啦所以我們現在去面對問題要去解決問題好不好來我們看一下怎麼解來你剛剛在講勞工的這個保障勞動部那邊有立法人家勞動部那邊還有一個行政院那邊有一個職場安全衛生法對不對"},{"start":23443.783,"end":23462.606,"text":"考試院立了什麼法公務人員保障法保障法是空的第77條說你如果受到管理上的不當你可以申訴再申訴可是現在的官場裡面有多少人被霸凌敢講"},{"start":23463.939,"end":23479.306,"text":"所以這個地方要好好再去修嘛要訂一個77條之一你要怎麼讓他申訴包括他如果再申訴就到你的考試院的保訓會嘛對不對你要有一個很明確的一個規範而且能夠保障我們被霸凌的人好不好這一條你要去努力77條之一蓮花你看十九條"},{"start":23482.335,"end":23507.817,"text":"你的保障法的第19條公務人員執行職務之安全應以保障．各機關對於公務人員執行職務．應提供安全跟衛生的防護措施．其相關辦法．由考試院會同行政院定之抗議嘛沒有法則嘛你對照左邊你看你在保障勞工那一塊職業安全衛生法"},{"start":23508.936,"end":23532.51,"text":"他有行政監督對不對有行事法還有行政法你看他的職安法第36條你看他規範的多明確包括違反的時候還有行事法者第4條跟41人家42跟48都有行有行政法有這個行事法結果你們的公務人員保障法是空的"},{"start":23534.261,"end":23557.172,"text":"所以今天你有幸被提名為副院長的被提名人以前你在考選部部長這邊又是有貢獻的今天你能不能非常明確的當著全國民眾的這個面前你當選完之後上任副院長你會對於反霸凌的安全網去把它整體的把它建構起來減少我們"},{"start":23558.001,"end":23585.424,"text":"各個部會的霸凌事件那至少有兩個事情是要做我剛講的公務人員的保障法裡面該修的東西要修好不好是 我很抱歉早上周院長被庭人也做了承諾要盡快來處理這個問題院長早上有承諾他會努力吧你今天也公開承諾你會努力對不對我會協助院長積極來這個完成我很明確跟你看一下臺灣民眾黨的提案我們針對"},{"start":23588.544,"end":23617.788,"text":"公務員保障增修第19條之一的這個條文這裡面講的都是法則你看你本來的法是空的依照台灣民眾黨的公務人員保障法增修條文這裡面有違反的除以新台幣3萬元以上30萬元以下更重要的裡面如果牽扯到發生了死亡災害的時候處3年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":23621.838,"end":23649.646,"text":"為什麼這次勞動部的這個事件會發生第一個沒有吹哨者保護法所以發生問題的時候大家靜若寒蟬不敢講話對不對所以吹哨者保護法要趕快立法要通過這是一個第二個你們執掌的考試院執掌的公務人員保障法要趕快修好不好另外我提個法公務人員的這個升遷法第7條目前在台灣這個公務人員只要當到主管職"},{"start":23650.796,"end":23670.073,"text":"他沒有經過申選的時候他的領導能力是沒有被評比的這是第7條第1項的規定我明確的要求這邊霸領的就是長官分署長、霸領、署下那主管以後應該經過評比所以我明確的要求"},{"start":23671.112,"end":23695.712,"text":"升遷法第七條第一項．包括後來的第十條跟第三條按明確規定第一項免經甄選的職務．特別是主管職務．以後要評比他的領導能力好不好我把這個書面等一下會送給你一方面是我們剛提的修正案一方面是升遷法的第十條第三項好不好我們會積極來研議處理我們透過法令"},{"start":23698.567,"end":23722.961,"text":"透過制度面來共同解決問題我們把這個安全網把它架構起來好不好是另外一個問題我要請教一塊我來我有一個評論你看一下前勞動部長他下台前那禮拜你打選的時候他講了一段話我今天想跟你共同來討論一共他第一次進入行政部門就是他當了勞動部的這個部長的時候"},{"start":23724.974,"end":23752.854,"text":"他本來想跟文官發展出合作的友善關係可是呢他負累了當今文官體系有著難以掌控的弱習跟惡習甚至是來自於不曾想像的邪惡你跟考選部長那麼久你今天又被批提名我們的文官體系有不曾想像的邪惡嗎我想我在考選部沒有碰到"},{"start":23754.399,"end":23782.161,"text":"這個我們考選部的同仁都是相當這個積極團隊合作沒有吧對 剩你不認同這句話我覺得這主管的帶領事實上時代改變了這個時代不應該是用指揮命令的方式在帶領這個公務團隊應該是用這個溝通說服的方式尤其是如果公務人員你交辦的案件"},{"start":23782.861,"end":23810.068,"text":"他們在執行上出了問題來請求你的協助你不是推薦而已你是在想辦法怎麼幫他把這個問題處理好所以我們的文官我們的公務人員們沒有邪惡吧沒有對不對我想絕大部分的都是非常好奉公守法是為民服務嘛是是來我另外要請教一下你什麼時候收到我們台灣民眾黨的問卷你上個禮拜"},{"start":23811.938,"end":23828.343,"text":"總統府的秘書長潘孟安陪著你們來拜會的時候你什麼時候收到我們的問卷有點記不太清楚是8月初嗎還是被委切有點記不太清楚抱歉"},{"start":23829.919,"end":23857.932,"text":"8月1號台灣民眾黨是這一次考試委員審查先提議的我們說要審考試委員要趕快審而且要審好審滿第二個我們是最早提出問卷送給你們的8月1號啊所以你8月初就拿到啦你什麼時候回給我們應該是昨天經由總統府我8月1號給你啊你昨天下午才給我我今天站在這邊問你"},{"start":23860.013,"end":23887.645,"text":"這個有達到實質審查的是破壞了實質審查報告委員現在這個新的法修正通過這個有一個慣例建立起來我想以後大家就會照做了那因為當時我們只收到民眾黨沒有收到其他的政黨所以是不是對其他的政黨如果只有回覆一個政黨這樣不公平我們最少送你說要等國民黨或民進黨來再一起回答這樣不行啦裡面最重要的關鍵是什麼"},{"start":23890.404,"end":23914.502,"text":"考試院是憲政的獨立機關對不對你以前考試院部長你是總統派的喔你現在角色已經轉變了喔你以前是總統派不要經過立法院同意對不對你現在是考試院的副院長跟所有考試委員都是獨立機關喔你雖然是總統提名了你是經過我們立法院的同意你才能夠上任喔你的角色已經完全是不一樣是改變的喔好"},{"start":23916.618,"end":23934.714,"text":"所以總統府叫你不能簽,你要在那等,你要乖如果因為這樣子,立法院不讓你通過,你不漂亮嗎?更重要的,你看以前的行政院長要經過立法院同意那個權力很大,權力很大你現在是總統提名完之後,你是獨立機關喔立法院通過,你要是走路是有方的"},{"start":23935.717,"end":23961.037,"text":"所以請你的角色要轉變好不好是 制度明確我們都會照這個明確制度來走所以這個問卷怎麼這麼久呢這個問卷是好像你是考試院就像那個考試那個收卷的鈴已經鈴聲響了好幾天了我8月1號給你你中間有個卡一個說什麼要等過憲法法庭那個判決也是10月25號就過了對不對所以你的問卷少晚了給我們一個月"},{"start":23962.435,"end":23980.76,"text":"跟委員抱歉不過我們這個非常感謝這個大宴還有各黨團提出的問題讓我們也有機會再進一步思考未來要做的這個作為這個角色認定要做一些改變好不好你不是總統提名就當選了啦是"},{"start":23982.838,"end":24007.071,"text":"最重要你是憲政的獨立機關你除了專業之外你獨立性跟公正性是要在的所以我要問你一個很重要的年輕改革你知道董超考試驗版送到立法院的時候他的年輕的替代率定多少那時候我是政務次長沒有參與我注意這80嘛"},{"start":24010.66,"end":24035.217,"text":"背章嘛考試院的版本包括那時候的總統府有這個年金的小組對不對年金改革小組嘛他送到立法院的時候106年上來立法院姓名犧牲替代率是80%然後每一年降1%他替代率到底就是70%可是那時候發生政治事件嘛那時候有個立法院叫段宜康"},{"start":24037.725,"end":24060.327,"text":"段宜康說什麼只能是一場寸土不長的戰爭他說外面有進攻者在抗議所以要砍得更兇所以後來沒有用考試院的版本現在聯進改革不是考試院的版本是段宜康的版本那時候民進黨絕對多數所以把本來的考試院版推翻了所以他從75%開始一年不是砍1%砍1.5%"},{"start":24064.349,"end":24075.86,"text":"你要不要回去捍衛一下看一下當初考試院的版本你現在是考試院的副院長要照顧退休的金工教好不好我會再做整體的了解當初"},{"start":24077.796,"end":24106.121,"text":"民進黨那時候是68期他絕對多數所以他等於是推翻了考試院版而且這個法令裡面很重要的年金改革是經過五年之後要重新要再檢討一次到去年都已經五年了有沒有好去檢討所以不要每次都講什麼年金你如果改了之後會破產我們最近每年都超收很多錢然後通膨那麼嚴重很多的退休金工教確實現在生活也不好"},{"start":24107.656,"end":24127.741,"text":"特別你現在是考試院的副院長請你回去看一下當初的考試院的版本而且裡面有規定五年他是要有一個檢討的好不好另外我問你一個消防人員的炮灰行在的問題他們現在爭取要組工會你贊不贊成我想這個問題"},{"start":24131.291,"end":24153.924,"text":"大家可以討論你不見得要贊成那如果不贊成你到底有沒有比較好可以去保護他呢因為歐美很多國家的相關人員都可以組工會嘛我是說我不見得說就是說你如果不贊成你總要有一套方法去幫忙這些打火兄弟我的了解是考試院已經有送出一個公務人協會法的一個版本到大宴來這邊透過協會這邊來補強是不是那協會這邊也放寬了這個結社群跟協商的範圍"},{"start":24160.667,"end":24188.183,"text":"我想當然公務人協會法從95年制定到目前的成效坦白說是不好所以我希望這個修法之後那考試院這邊應該要去追蹤各部會的一個推行的情況公務人協會法那這個觀察它的從這邊我想相信如果是大家落實執行應該是對未來公務人的權益的保障會更好"},{"start":24188.763,"end":24210.12,"text":"那工會這邊未來也不是完全沒有討論空間而是要看他們對人民的影響所以今天最重要反霸凌這個保護法這一定要修法趕快把它補強要有行動方案好謝謝張委員謝謝被提名的人下一位我們請陳培宇委員詢問"},{"start":24222.993,"end":24233.652,"text":"謝謝主席那有請被提名人副院長許舒翔副院長謝謝被提名人阿許委員"},{"start":24234.464,"end":24253.037,"text":"背題名人您好我想在正式詢問我們今天所有的議題之前我想邀請您跟我一起為最近勞動部勞發署分署公務員往生離開的憾事表達遺憾我相信在您過往的工作經驗長期在公務機關裡面你一定看到非常多的議題那我想我們就來進行實質討論"},{"start":24254.938,"end":24271.988,"text":"第一個我想要檢討的是其實已經非常多委員在提了不管是法規範或者是實務上的困難我們都看到了很多的困境第一個我想要談實務上到底面對了什麼困難我認為我們從例如說我在教育文化委員會"},{"start":24272.748,"end":24300.661,"text":"我們從校園裡面的霸凌防制準則在修訂的過程當中我們大家就對霸凌的定義每一個人都有不同的意見跟想像有人認為要持續一段時間但有人認為偶一為之但如果情勢非常嚴重我們就可以認定它為霸凌那我不知道目前在公務現場或者是一般的民間機構的現場對於職場霸凌的定義性規定這件事情其實目前是沒有的"},{"start":24301.601,"end":24319.176,"text":"實務上必須要透過法院的判決﹑或者是行政機關的行政指導來參考才能定義這件事情到底是不是霸凌那再來就算知道或是我是當事人我面對這個霸凌我都不是那麼確定我到底要如何處理那到底如何處理這件事情"},{"start":24319.696,"end":24344.264,"text":"如果回到法規範他可能還要從行事、民事還有所謂的勞動法上面尋求救濟也就是說如果有這些困難是實務法規範上的困難還有現場實務工作上的困難那到底我們還能夠怎麼來看待這件事情我想要請您表達一下你的意見我想這個"},{"start":24346.788,"end":24361.453,"text":"職場霸凌尤其是公務機關的職場霸凌應該是不應該存在因為這會影響到整體團隊的運作也會影響到政府施政的效能"},{"start":24362.193,"end":24388.962,"text":"所以應該是我們應該是要積極來面對那當然這個問題也許過去所謂職場霸凌問題所以也許在學校這個比較早去討論到這個問題確實因為學校裡面的狀況非常的複雜那因為學校有教師那這個跟公務機關比較不同因為公務機關比較有層級的這個節制所以有一些問題的顯現也許比較沒有那麼立即"},{"start":24389.682,"end":24395.225,"text":"Iwan NawiIwan NawiIwan Nawi"},{"start":24419.184,"end":24428.475,"text":"注意到各機關在落實的情形所以早上也有一些委員希望考試院未來也能夠都出去走走瞭解這個機關在這些"},{"start":24431.024,"end":24450.508,"text":"法令執行的情況不要因為考試院只是負責法制但是整個政策來講法制的規劃跟決定之後其實執行的層面也是很重要考試院要把法制的部分做好也必須要了解實際的執行情形是怎麼樣子"},{"start":24451.208,"end":24477.634,"text":"聽起計程的聲音回來再做修正調整我想這樣對於公務體系整個塑造良善的一個這個友善的一個工作環境他的步調跟步伐會比較快不要等到問題產生了才來進行這個修法那有時候發生這種重大不幸真的是慢了一步所以我們希望以後如果進入考試院服務希望能夠有更積極的作為"},{"start":24479.123,"end":24499.922,"text":"我其實沒有想到我今天會聽到您這麼正向的回答包含您提到了面對問題、解決問題還有你說並不要只是坐在辦公室裡面研究法規範就算您過去是所謂的考選部部長您都主動提到要多出去走走聽聽基層的聲音我想今天這個對話絕對是有正面的意義"},{"start":24500.362,"end":24525.574,"text":"我想是不是也是可以代表您對於這件事情很重大的宣示跟日後假設您可以成功上任之後你務必會在這件事情上積極努力尤其是您剛說的多聽聽各個部會基層公務人員的聲音那我對這件事情也非常有期待是這個我想我一定會這個請院長這個讓我到基層多多聽尤其年輕公務員"},{"start":24527.323,"end":24551.828,"text":"大家這幾年比較擔心的是說我們報考國考報考人數越來越少那其實我擔心的是年輕人進公部門之後能不能待得下來會不會因為公務的環境不適應而離開那我了解現在年輕人其實他們很有想法很有價值理念所以如果是他認為做有意義的事情他就願意來來學習所以"},{"start":24552.468,"end":24568.181,"text":"包括在人才招募的部分我也在拜託各用門機關要協助我們到學校裡面來跟這個年輕人說你到這個部門你到內政部來做什麼你到外交部是做什麼不是我們考檢部去說你要怎麼考試而已"},{"start":24569.622,"end":24598.037,"text":"讓年輕人找到進入公部門的時代意義在哪裡為民、為國家服務所以我想去為什麼我接受總統這個提名也是希望以前我在考選部沒辦法做的那未來也希望說這個能夠讓考選部這邊召考進來的年輕公務人員能夠願意留在公部門繼續來為國家、為人民努力所以這一方面我想會積極來努力"},{"start":24598.837,"end":24626.63,"text":"我剛剛花了這麼多時間讓被提名人您把您的理念說得很清楚那我自己也做了一些筆記我非常感動你說你想要陪伴年輕人找到在這個時代進入公務機關工作的時代意義我覺得這件事情也非常重要我們來看下一頁為什麼我說它很重要呢因為如同今天早上開始非常多委員的槌尋其實都提到相關法規範確實出現一些困境我們來從一些實務現場開始看我現在的投影片展現這一張是"},{"start":24628.431,"end":24639.56,"text":"我就不說是什麼部門了但是就是在這兩天D卡上當有人發文說呢他過去工作的公務機構裡面他的長官呢黨商調是基本"},{"start":24640.967,"end":24665.072,"text":"就是說不讓他轉到別的單位去我看你已經皺眉頭了齁那結果這個文章一出來呢底下不僅有很多留言回覆甚至有很多人留言說他也曾經從那個公務機關逃出來但是在那個文章當中他其實還寫得蠻清楚其實知道人就一看就知道是什麼機關但是我們今天就不多說如果後續您對於這個議題有興趣我們可以再提供資料給您"},{"start":24665.532,"end":24681.54,"text":"但是我要講這個事情他非常荒謬的是這算不算是一種職場霸凌又回到我剛剛講定義的問題了還有甚至他想要請調然後對方的主管也已經同意但是他的這個原來部位原來的主管卻不同意"},{"start":24681.9,"end":24702.365,"text":"那他到底是用什麼樣的理由 擋住了這個公務人員要往下一站去的這個方向那我認為對於公務人員任用法 還有該法的實行細則在實務運作上 看起來也遇到了困境甚且讓我們覺得更害怕的是 這個被爆料的人這個長官 他還得過模範公務員"},{"start":24704.574,"end":24733.285,"text":"所以我才會說這是一個這應該不會只是一個個案我甚且認為它搞不好會是很多公務機關裡面基層的公務員他們正在面臨的困境但是因為在您剛剛所有的回答當中我都認為您願意直接面對問題解決問題這確實是我們現在需要看到你們的肩膀但在公務人員任用法跟該法的實行細則您就過去在考選部的經驗您有沒有什麼建議或者是您目前有什麼可能的規劃是依目前的"},{"start":24734.745,"end":24761.78,"text":"法規的確是因為尊重用人機關的考量所以他是有可以不同意他商調的這個權益那也許對於主管來講有時候你表現非常優秀那如果你離開可能對主管的業務會有影響所以也不要完全把它想成是負面的但是我覺得這個部分是有檢討空間因為我們"},{"start":24763.461,"end":24787.743,"text":"最近因應這個友善的一個生養環境﹐所以也放寬了限制轉調的規定﹐讓年輕公園不要等到這個三年限制轉調﹐六年限制轉調﹐如果說因為你要照顧小孩﹐可以有適當的一個轉調的機制﹐但是也碰上了主管﹐雖然法說你可以申請商調﹐那你也找到了﹐但是也碰到主管不讓你去﹐"},{"start":24788.752,"end":24811.931,"text":"那這個部分可能也就是說我也就是說為什麼我們要多出去聽一下那如果說這樣的一個情形非常多那我們立這個法規修改的一個美意就不見了如果我們對於友善的一個生養環境真的是非常重要我們是不是要考量到如果是依這個條款來申請商調的主管不得季節"},{"start":24814.933,"end":24835.881,"text":"這個是聽起來是您目前針對這個案子﹖或者是就您以前接觸到的經驗﹖你所做出來的回答﹖但如同您說的﹖其實您跟我都不真的那麼瞭解公務人員在基層的現場﹖所以未來如果您上任﹖我真的希望您可以做到您今天所承諾的﹖你希望多出去走一走﹖當然今天這個個案呢﹖我不會認為它是個案﹖因為我剛剛已經說在底下留言﹖"},{"start":24836.261,"end":24855.257,"text":"有非常多人就明白指出他也曾經帶過那個單位但主管為什麼不讓他請調走我相信原因一定很多非常的複雜但我們到下一頁我希望站在公務人員保障法的精神目前我們的法規範裡面其實只有規範到應該提供給公務員安全跟衛生的防護措施並且授權相關機關訂定辦法"},{"start":24857.099,"end":24876.92,"text":"可是實務上當相關機關或是防護措施沒有依法辦理的時候卻沒有相關的法規範我想您過去來自考選部您一定對於這個議題很有感另外當然至於怎麼修法的部分今天也很多委員談了但您剛也做了承諾後續不管從哪裡修法我想我們都會支持好 那我們來看下一題"},{"start":24878.121,"end":24893.819,"text":"其實也有很多委員提到關於少子女化的問題其實您剛剛本人也有提到但是我們發現其實還有另外一個很大的困境以我們自己最熟悉教育部跟文化部的業務我們發現因為總原額法的限制導致於行政機關的原額沒有辦法符合工作量"},{"start":24894.52,"end":24913.829,"text":"但現在有這麼多龐大的公務量必須只能符合總原額法的情況之下就產生了很多非典型禁用的問題我想這個你一定非常清楚而這個非典型禁用會不會剛好就是造成這個職場霸凌的困境的主要原因之一"},{"start":24914.409,"end":24929.02,"text":"那我想就這件事情上如果就國家的整體財政緣額編制上我們確實不能加人也沒有辦法再加錢或者是搞不好連報加班費都有問題但是卻有這麼多公務的內容需要完成我們到底可以怎麼辦"},{"start":24931.143,"end":24957.217,"text":"所以這個總研合法的部分我是不了解有沒有這個檢討的空間但是的確我們這種研合法的一個限制底下的情況造成這個約聘後這個約僱人員的增加甚至有我了解有一部分目前是用計劃案的方式來禁用人員那有一部分用這個計劃案禁用的人員"},{"start":24958.203,"end":24983.748,"text":"他的薪資大意事實上是比我們初等考試剛進來的他的那個薪資還高所以也造成這個願意來考初等考試成為專職工這個的一個人員的一個影響所以這部分可能未來我想如果有機會到這個考試院之後也希望跟相關的機關大家共同再來這個考量"},{"start":24984.548,"end":25007.376,"text":"等一下等一下但是我並不希望您因此回頭去調整所謂計劃案所約聘進來的人他們的起薪你要把它往下壓這應該不是我們的本意但因為你剛講到這邊我非常的害怕是要更好是要更好但是如何讓不管是考進正式考進公務機關的正式公務員或者是相關計劃案或者是約聘人力或者是非典型金融我認為我們公務機關真的要認真回頭面對這個事情"},{"start":25011.617,"end":25022.203,"text":"我們來回頭看一下所以為了回應這個問題我們看到考試院其實在2021年3月2月3號你們就成立了考試院數位轉型委員會當時規劃是由院長擔任主任委員、領導數位轉型委員會"},{"start":25028.006,"end":25048.801,"text":"主要的任務包含建構院部會資訊安全聯防體系國家考試電腦化公務人力資訊整合國家考試及格證書數位化做了很多很多事情那我想要問假設您未來上任之後你對於這個考試院數位轉型委員會就您過去考選部的工作經驗你還有沒有更多的規劃跟想像"},{"start":25050.986,"end":25071.807,"text":"我想這個部分應該我們會持續下去因為這是一個剛開始的起步那不可能說過去這幾年就這一部分全部完成還是要持續不斷的那會做這個數位轉型包括考試院其實有很多的資料但是沒有把它做數位的資料庫"},{"start":25073.735,"end":25103.161,"text":"任何的決策的一個進行應該要有相關的一個數據這個Evidence Base這樣的一個決策依據所以我們透過這樣的一個建立之後未來在相關的決策會比較知道這個一些相關的法規的修訂應該怎麼做所以我想這件事情我們還是會持續來加強但是面對新時代其實數位轉型可能是我們前一波在講的那也就是所謂的平面"},{"start":25103.721,"end":25120.592,"text":"指本的資料實體的資料數位化就如同我們知道其實考試院保存了上萬件也許是十萬件沒有領走的證書這件事情其實之前你們新聞稿有講過所以做數位化應該是最簡單但是面對AI時代的這個議題不知道你有沒有什麼想像"},{"start":25121.192,"end":25138.153,"text":"所以AI的部分能夠應用的部分來協助提升行政效能的部分當然我們會應用不過我們某一部分也要審慎像我在考選部工作的時候我會提醒命題委員不能用check GPT因為那可能會造成洩體的問題"},{"start":25140.107,"end":25165.556,"text":"但是這一部分未來我們如果是要提升一些相關的命題品質某一部分也是可能會應用AI可是我們要建立自己的一個系統我們自己輔助業界的系統或者是用AI來做命題的系統而不是用外面公開的這個系統所以怎麼樣應用我想各部會各機關有一些不同業務的性質要去做一些適當的契格"},{"start":25166.056,"end":25176.073,"text":"所以您大概也有心理準備如果您正式走馬上任之後應該這個AI的議題也是跑不掉的大功課對但是可以應用的部分我想我們也都會盡量來推動"},{"start":25177.659,"end":25206.158,"text":"那我們想跟你討論一樣是跟科技發展有關的其實台灣這幾年公務人員考選除了那個人數瑞簡跟少子化當然有關係之外我們來回頭看一下您過往在擔任考選部部長的任內您有提到希望用計畫來強化學考訓勇的連結我們覺得這件事情非常的重要那您當時甚至提出跟許多大學合作建立預備文官團希望讓大學生有志於公職的人提早準備不用經過過多的補習"},{"start":25208.199,"end":25230.594,"text":"可是我們來看一下相關的數字從2020年報考人數是83,616人到2024年只剩下66,702人除了報名人數的下降之外有另外一個問題我個人認為如果我們來看現在的學考訓用有一個比較大的困境是錄取不足額的部分我們來看錄取不足額20類科"},{"start":25233.136,"end":25254.339,"text":"均為技術類科對您頻頻點頭所以您非常清楚這個困境我們來看一下高考三級缺最多的就是高考三級的土木工程水力工程還有機械工程您知道原因嗎為什麼這三個技術類科的缺額最高我想這個公職的技術類科某一部分"},{"start":25255.057,"end":25281,"text":"事實上他也跟這個市場上的專技人員有相互聯動的關係所以像土木工程來講有土木工程技師所以當外面的土木工程技師的條件待遇好的時候進入工部門的考土木工程的人就會減少那尤其這個土木工程的我想大家也都有聽過事實上他的工作風險程度相當的高"},{"start":25281.921,"end":25300.254,"text":"所以也會造成年輕人竊步那我們也針對這個問題事實上也跟學校單位包括教授都來做討論所以我想這個部分包括像未來這些職等我覺得土木工程職等已經也許不要再考這個普考的部分了"},{"start":25301.028,"end":25319.885,"text":"所以你目前有這樣的規劃跟想像在我們這個對話當中你有這個靈感國家的人才需求有一些如果是這個你有重要需求的人才他的質等應該是要做適當的調整好所以是科目的部分跟質等的部分其實你剛舉了土木工程我剛還跟你分享還有水力工程跟機械工程"},{"start":25320.285,"end":25320.885,"text":"坦白說我要誠實跟委員說"},{"start":25347.492,"end":25366.711,"text":"以前在考選部的這個組織法裡面 事實上是沒有人才招募的考選部基本上就是把考試辦好就好 人家要不要來報名是他自己決定 但是時代改變了所以我們需要積極去跟大學裡面 尋找人才所以我認為這件事情是正面的 我才拿出來說"},{"start":25367.432,"end":25386.605,"text":"我提出伊萬奈的概念就是希望有沒有可能當然我想以我們目前的國情絕對做不到有沒有可能台大土木工程系畢業的或是台大土木工程系畢業前10名他如果要來加入我們土木工程我們還要他考8個科目嗎"},{"start":25388.32,"end":25411.685,"text":"但是如果在國家考試的公平性我們好像也不能在這裡說不要考嘛對不對所以就是不能說不要考而且他當年高分考上台大土木不代表他四年畢業後依然認真優秀嘛我想我們必須要減少這些考試的障礙那尤其年輕人有些目前的統計平均高考三期大概要兩年三年考兩次三次我想這樣的一個障礙"},{"start":25412.406,"end":25439.039,"text":"在時代變成年輕人的想法改變他要等待這麼久、準備這麼久他去公部門就第一張他過去的寫經歷就好那進公部門還要報名會去業界應徵不用報名會所以這些障礙我們都應該要做一些適當調整所以我們也做了好 謝謝"},{"start":25443.953,"end":25450.702,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝被提名的人下一位我們請劉許廷委員詢問"},{"start":25468.61,"end":25490.515,"text":"好 謝謝主席這個考試院副院長候選人許書柏先生有請我們請備題名人許書翔打許書翔不好意思 更正一下吳安老吳安老今天我們就直接切入主題針對本席關心的幾個題目就教於我們的副院長候選人"},{"start":25491.874,"end":25510.662,"text":"第一個是要和您探討公務員的職場霸凌以及相關的法律修正的這個問題這個勞動部勞益發展署分署於11月4號發生無信資訊工程師的輕生事件那麼事後被揭露這個整個勞發署的北分署"},{"start":25511.882,"end":25538.31,"text":"長期處在不合理的高壓環境不只有職場霸凌有高離職率、打假卡的問題甚至還有貪污圖利跟非法運資購買非常多的禮盒等等這些問題謝宜榮分署長從2023年2月到任之後校長把護、好大喜功、剛愎自用靠著前任勞動部長許明春還有時任的勞發署署長蔡孟良當靠山在機關裡作威作福"},{"start":25539.75,"end":25560.984,"text":"這個事發後勞動部自請調查調查結果為分署長目的良善、霸凌和死因無關引起巨大民怨最後勞動部長下台負上政治責任勞動部並宣布折旗重啟調查並且將謝宜榮分署長送考機會依公務人員考機法一次計兩大過這個免職處分"},{"start":25564.95,"end":25590.539,"text":"這個本席想先跟副院長候選人探討一下處分的類型跟效果按照這個表格所述基本上從勞動部的考機會他當然可以打叮噹然後就是兩大過直接免職那麼送考試院來做處理對不對那考試院基本上也是所謂的用專案考機的方式來做處理一樣強度上也是所謂的兩大過免職我請教一下副院長候選人這個免職跟免除職務的差別在哪裡"},{"start":25594.266,"end":25611.773,"text":"免職跟免職...呃...抱歉我對這個沒有...因為這個法...這個就是四色法規這沒有關係啦這個本席就在這個地方直接講齁所謂的兩大過免職基本上就是開除現有的職務啦但他可被保留公務員的身份"},{"start":25613.803,"end":25632.224,"text":"這個副院長候選人應該就清楚對不對他的公務員身份還是保留對不對唯一要能夠做到最嚴厲的處分也就是說連公務人員任用的資格都失去基本上要由監察院進行彈劾之後送懲戒法院嘛然後由司法院懲戒法院判所謂的免除職務啊才有辦法徹底拔除這個人的公務員的資格"},{"start":25632.945,"end":25660.207,"text":"所以這個公務人員任用法第28條也講就是說基本上你要透過懲戒法院的判決你才能夠受免除職務的懲戒處分那麼才有辦法這個把他公務人員的身份來做撤銷雖然根據公務人員考記法第12條這種種我們在這邊就不再詳述他完全符合罪行重大這樣子的一個情況但是現在考試院能做的是不是基本上就是核准勞動部的這樣子的這個考記處分"},{"start":25664.568,"end":25687.128,"text":"這個部分如果一程序這個當事人受阻礙如果他有提出相關的一些申訴或者訴願應該保訓會這邊還會再做對你甚至還要再研議對不對對這就是本期想要跟你探討的第一個問題也就是說今天即便考試院核准了或者是用專案考機的方式來處理這個免職當事人甚至都還有機會來提所謂的救濟程序"},{"start":25687.628,"end":25714.358,"text":"那依法救濟喔搞不好喔你連現在的兩大過免職的這樣子的一個行動都有可能會形同懸殖對不對因為現在對外的說法是我們兩大過把它免職然後行政院院長還講說這個人永不入用但其實從法規的角度跟法律保障公園的角度這個只是說說而已嘛因為他還是可以依法救濟依法救濟可能甚至承接法院判不過等等的一個狀況在極端的狀況下他甚至有可能等待風頭過後"},{"start":25715.618,"end":25737.976,"text":"再去用公務員的身份再去申請其他的職位對不對這個是有可能發生的是不是是的一程序上他是有這方面救濟程序可以有救濟程序可許嘛對不對這個核心的問題其實當然就是本期要討論的就是也就是所謂的制度不完善的問題啦現行的法律喔並沒有針對職場霸凌有明確的定義嘛霸凌的定義"},{"start":25739.638,"end":25759.965,"text":"勞動部的網站倒是有講發生在工作場所中同人間、主管部署間藉由權力濫用與不公平對待造成持續性冒犯、威脅、冷落、孤立或侮辱行為使霸凌者受挫、被威脅、羞辱、被孤立、受傷進而責損自信並帶來沉重身心壓力這是剛剛很多委員在答詢的時候在質詢的時候其實都有講出來"},{"start":25762.503,"end":25784.305,"text":"可是在公務人員這一套各種法規裡面保障法、服務法、任用法、考機法其實都沒有去提相關的這樣子的一個狀況所以在謝宜榮這個案子裡面他很有可能發生因為與法無據嘛所以他還可以救濟他還可以說其他的東西舉證不成立所以逃過最終的制裁的這樣一個可能性那就表示我們的制度其實是有"},{"start":25785.166,"end":25807.713,"text":"修改的必要我想請問一下副院長候選人考試院作為人事行政的最高主管機關也是憲政機關你認為職場霸凌應不應該出現在公部門的文化裡面公部門不應該出現這個霸凌的問題當然不應該嘛對不對好那現在有這個狀況的時候應不應該要做制度的調整法規的修正我們這個會"},{"start":25809.81,"end":25830.601,"text":"早上這個周院長被提名也承諾了會針對保障法的部分來做這個修正來做修法對不對按修法的方向而言這問題比較開放一點就是職場霸凌應該要有多重的處分情節輕重這個副院長候選人心裡有沒有想法什麼樣的狀況應該受什麼樣的懲處這部分可能首先必須要針對"},{"start":25832.622,"end":25849.848,"text":"所謂的霸凌做比較清楚的一個明確性定義如果我們就按照勞動部網站對於職場霸凌因為其實差不多嘛那只是僱主是政府機關或者是一般的僱主而已嘛如果就按照這樣子霸凌的定義的話你或跟其他的委員候選人有沒有討論過這樣子的一個重大的社會事件我們應該用什麼樣嚴肅的心態來看待"},{"start":25852.658,"end":25875.758,"text":"我想這個一定是要非常嚴肅的看待因為公務體系事實上公務體系的量能每個公務員都很重要所以團隊事實上是非常重要的所以如果是有霸凌產生事實上對公務員的這個他執行他的這個職務的範圍會有影響也會影響對整體人民的這個權益所以應該是好好來這個處理這個問題"},{"start":25877.479,"end":25905.28,"text":"就副院長候選人來講你們心裡有沒有一個修法的時間表?或者是一個修法的方向?你們有沒有掌握相關的這樣子的一些訊息?應該希望下個會期能夠提出來下一個會期可以提出來是不是?來因為本期這邊首先有一份公文這個其實齁這個是當初全序部送給考試院秘書長這當然是在你們還沒有上任之前啦但其實在這個公文裡面就寫得很清楚有關於公務人員考積法的修正草案以及相關修正條文請查照並於民國113年2月"},{"start":25907.182,"end":25923.68,"text":"22日前恢復所以表示其實在今年的2月考試院也就是前任的這個考試院其實就已經針對公務員考機法已經有了修法的這個草案我不知道為什麼啦我不知道為什麼當初他們在做的時候就只是內部討論而已然後就沒有然後了"},{"start":25924.241,"end":25940.917,"text":"然後現在一定要弄到出人命了之後才把他提上修法期間這是很奇怪的事情但是我要提醒副院長候選人是這一份當初考試院的函裡面還有他的修法草案裡面其實就已經把公務員職場霸凌的定義等等就已經清出來做入法好 所以"},{"start":25942.469,"end":25966.781,"text":"你既然已經講或是稍早這個院長候選人大概也講了就是說下個會期要來做修法這本期就希望這件事情能夠如期而且盡速來做處理以解決我們現在講的現行制度的三個問題之一也就是法律沒有明文規定的問題那第二個我希望在今天的答詢之後我還能夠再收到更多的書面的意見的補充也就是說現行的懲戒強度顯然是沒有辦法遏止霸凌行為嘛"},{"start":25967.421,"end":25993.743,"text":"那在未來的修法跟制度的調整方向如何加大懲戒的強度去從頭到尾去杜絕霸凌發生的可能性這我想是新任不管是副院長候選人也好或者是其他考試委員的候選人都應該心裡都要有個這是一個社會大眾交給你們的問卷我希望可以看到具體的答案在我們表決人事同意權之前那第三個要花一點點時間再請教副院長候選人的看法是如何及早發現"},{"start":25997.049,"end":26015.649,"text":"現在很多人在講說考試院可能沒必要啦反正行政院人事行政總署都處理完啦對不對所以考試院變成好像一個這個跟大家距離比較遠的一個機關但是其實考試院是人事權這個最高憲政機關其實這個本來就是你的業務啊我們要怎麼及早發現這樣的問題我想及早發現齁"},{"start":26018.331,"end":26038.299,"text":"這個大概有兩個部分一個部分事實上各機關在各自的範圍裡面像這個霸凌的問題如果是存在你的機關那機關如果知道是應該要人事單位應該要適當的處理尤其是我們的人事行政事實上是一條邊的制度所以這個分屬的我不曉得他們叫人事制還是什麼"},{"start":26039.119,"end":26067.316,"text":"如果是知道這個問題那麼分署自己沒辦法處理是不是應該給發展署這一邊這個人事單位來處理如果沒辦法再上到勞動部副院長現在講的一樣是實務上大家先現行習慣的模式也就是交給行政權裡面的人事相關的事項來做處理可是我要跟副院長候選人談的事情就是說按照現行的邏輯跟制度他其實是沒有辦法解決問題的因為他雖然名義上人事是一條邊"},{"start":26067.976,"end":26069.958,"text":"Iwan Nawi Iwan Nawi"},{"start":26089.959,"end":26106.061,"text":"或是你要跟人事行政總局協調也可以但怎麼樣來講我們的整體政府機關其實要有一個監控的機制這個監控機制不是講說這個干涉他們的權利而是以這個勞發署這個案例來講後面大家揭露的是他的離職率非常高"},{"start":26107.616,"end":26131.712,"text":"很多的公務機關裡面哪一些機關離職率特別高哪一些機關常常有請調的需求哪一些機關留不住人他其實就是先造一定有原因嘛所謂的事出必有因有原因你才會知道這個狀況如果我們的考試院能夠有一些專案的督導的一些機制跟行政總處來做合作從源頭去發現這樣的問題我們是不是能夠少一點這樣子的悲劇"},{"start":26132.682,"end":26158.509,"text":"是 我想委員講的這個方向是正確那事實上我的瞭解我們也開始這個在考試院這邊也跟人種這邊建立一些這個資料庫的這個平台從這個相關的數據去瞭解問題所以如果是人員有過度的流動那到底為什麼會有這樣的情形應該要及早去發現那早上有一些委員也提到考試院應該也要多出去"},{"start":26159.429,"end":26186.171,"text":"走一走了解這個基層的一些聲音我覺得這也是有道理因為我們不能只有負責法治事項之後就由各機關自己去對啦這其實就是本期今天要講的就是說人事行政總署來主管這樣的事情的時候難免受到行政權這裡面的官場一些文化的影響但因為考試權它也具備有一定的獨立性基本上能夠被提名為考試委員、正副院長等等教育會員資歷也好、威望也好"},{"start":26187.453,"end":26201.868,"text":"學經歷都經過一定的考驗他其實是夠厚重的那你要善用這樣子的厚重性跟這樣的獨立性有的時候來適時的導正行政機關裡面的一些不良風氣這是我對於未來新任考試院政府院長跟新任委員的期許"},{"start":26202.228,"end":26226.799,"text":"所以我們希望在會後有詳細的資料再來補充我們如何來解決現行制度的三大問題第一 法律的明文規定什麼樣的時間表之內我們要來做處理第二個 有關於悲劇的懲戒的強度是否能夠有效的來做提升第三 我們有哪一些預前的機制考試院可以扮演什麼樣的積極角色來杜絕問題這一部分希望副院長候選人在會後可以做一些補充的說明可以嗎是"},{"start":26228.032,"end":26239.003,"text":"第二部分要來跟大家也是很關心的這個年輕改革跟人事制度的再次檢討這我一一拜讀了各位包含副院長候選人您在內各個考試委員的這個口頭報告"},{"start":26241.809,"end":26261.822,"text":"基本上都看了然後還有我們黨團提出來一些問題跟答案我覺得比較難過的是就是說大家其實都很清楚公務機關裡面公部門相對封閉但是這一群人其實對社會大部分的人都是貢獻良多的很多人在年金改革的過程中感覺情感受到了巨大的傷害"},{"start":26262.302,"end":26284.799,"text":"因為他們不只是退休的權利這個來自於國家當初的承諾因為粗暴的修法而受到了剝奪更重要的是在修法的過程中因為煽動社會的對立跟階級跟世代的鬥爭讓這一群退休公務員其實是非常非常心寒不只是退休公務員心寒我也不覺得新進的公務人員在這一波改革之後會對未來抱有什麼樣的信心"},{"start":26285.399,"end":26314.515,"text":"因為在年金改革的永續性對我們把破產的年限往後延了20年但是現在相對年輕的公務員等到他們到了五十幾歲、六十幾歲年金退休的時候難道不是二次年改的開始嗎他們可能就是下一批慘遭批鬥的肥貓可是對所有的公務員來講跨越世代、跨越黨派來講它其實都是不公平的事情所以我覺得在年金改革的部分我們也希望做一些討論跟調整遺憾的是我們在各個考試委員的回答之中我們幾乎沒有看到不同的聲音"},{"start":26315.526,"end":26338.777,"text":"副院長、候選人我覺得蠻難過的因為我們都希望考試院其實是超越黨派當然由行政機關來處理提名事務但是我不希望整個考試院因為由民進黨執政然後由他們來做提名事務然後對於年金的檢討跟修正大家都非常的保守甚至不敢觸碰本期覺得奇蹟以為不可副院長、候選人有沒有一些別的想法可以跟大家分享"},{"start":26341.924,"end":26362.741,"text":"我想任何改革這個基於我過去也是學公共政策的部分那事實上可能不能只有從單一的角度來思考問題所以對公務員的這個重視跟尊重那事實上這幾年政府也是相當努力"},{"start":26364.46,"end":26376.265,"text":"這個對限職工人員在過去蔡總統八年任內也提高了百分之十一調整薪資那賴總統一上來也調整了預定明年百分之三如果是預算有通過的話"},{"start":26378.238,"end":26399.787,"text":"所以我想這些調整也會反映到後面退休的人因為他的月退已經本縫有提升了所以他的未來退休他所可以領到的會更多這是一種解決的方式那請問副院長候選人這樣子的一個解決的方式因為近年的通膨其實是非常的多"},{"start":26400.287,"end":26421.104,"text":"那你現在的退休公務委員現在正在受到所謂的十年緩降的臨時處分那每一年的物價連年調漲退休金卻連年減少然後你講說我稍微調整了本縫你覺得那個額度要怎麼樣來捏拿他是得益的所以針對已經在領的月退縫的部分"},{"start":26421.758,"end":26438.766,"text":"也是會隨物價如果消費者組織累計5%生物5%就會調整所以今年也因為這個問題調整了4%我們今天就不再多去談比如說改善基金績效這些老生常談很多人都談過但本席希望考試院會有一點不同的聲音"},{"start":26439.286,"end":26468.422,"text":"就是針對這個因為這個本來就應該有滾動式檢討這幾年的經濟狀況、金融狀況其實跟當初修法的時候時空背景有很大的不同啦但是我們的考試院過度保守的時候其實不只是含了退休公務員的心也會讓未來的現任的公務員即將退休的或者是現在年輕的因為未來他們都會面對一樣的事情我們是希望在這個重新再檢討的過程之中考試院可以有多一點不同的聲音這個希望副院長候選人跟你的團隊未來的團隊做妥適的商量"},{"start":26469.582,"end":26496.58,"text":"但是最近在立法院已經有送上修法而且相對來講進度最超前基本上是警察人事條例的修正方向本席是內政委員會的委員所以本席對於警消的權益一向是非常非常的關心有關於警察人事條例的修正當然也是談退休的重新檢討我想副院長候選人應該不會反對警消在工作的性質上其實跟一般的公務員還是有些差異對不對"},{"start":26499.048,"end":26527.62,"text":"錦霄也是我過去在考選部負責這個考選的部分所以我想我對錦霄也多一些了解他在整個考試的過程還有這個訓練的過程事實上也相當辛苦當然執行上面也是這個牽涉到直接牽涉到人民的生命財產安全所以事實上在這個部分所以出任警察人員同一個職等"},{"start":26529.216,"end":26550.694,"text":"以我的了解已經比其他一般公務員會警察的同一個程度他的待遇大概就已經多了一萬塊我們講簡單一點你看他的薪酬待遇比一般的公務員高的原因是什麼因為就是所謂的危險 對不對然後有風險嘛 對不對所以警察、警校這樣他有所謂的危老早退的問題啦"},{"start":26551.374,"end":26571.299,"text":"因為危險然後相對情惡繁重然後凡事都要警校來做支援對不對所以很多人其實甚至都做不滿退休年限他會有提早退休叫做所謂的危老早退他既然在現職上待遇本來就有些差異危老早退又是他的工作性質那其實在退輔制度上面這個副院長候選人是否同意他應該被獨立探討"},{"start":26573.612,"end":26597.847,"text":"他的 我知道他的緊情加緊這一部分這是講限職的嘛 我現在講的是 我先講退伏 待會再講限職的狀況退伏的部分 現在還有另外一個問題就是事實上他繳的是同樣的一個退伏金對 你現在就是因為基金一包都在公價基金裡面嘛 對不對但是本席認為這個一樣也是考試院應該要審慎來做思考的因為本職的性質上有非常巨大的差異"},{"start":26598.607,"end":26615.343,"text":"那你如果因為這樣的關係你沒有辦法給予更多的照顧的話其實我覺得警消人力的缺乏那個對於社會對於治安也好對於社會穩定也好它其實是非常重大的一個打擊不只是退府制度應該要獨立調整我也希望未來的考試院在這個人事制度上面也要再次來做檢討"},{"start":26616.164,"end":26639.666,"text":"工作的特殊性讓警消他應該比如說軍人有軍人的一套系統跟規制警消難道不需要嗎人事編制上面不只是人事編制跟退伏上面嘛對不對制度上也要有一些新的做法是嗎所以報告委員所以之前其實在從考試方面我們也在思考是不是警察應該另外一個體系所以像警察大學畢業的"},{"start":26641.716,"end":26658.406,"text":"你會直接想他應該就是警察為什麼還要經過國家考試就是因為都是在公務員體系大家就是要一致這個我們希望未來台灣的年輕人變成加入警校加入軍人變成保駕衛國捍衛社會安全的英雄而不要變成黑幫毒販跟詐騙的這個打手"},{"start":26660.767,"end":26688.039,"text":"這個其實是所有政治人物都共同希望的事情那要做到這件事情其實就在人事編制上面應該要有合理的變革跟調整去保障這樣的人的福利並且加強這個部分的人才禁用這個我想也是考試院未來應該要面對的重責大任我們也期待新任的考試院針對警消人事制度的調整提出具體而且有效的改革措施好嗎我們共同來好謝謝牛委員謝謝貝提名人"},{"start":26690.214,"end":26693.418,"text":"報告全院委員會休息五分鐘休息之後繼續詢問現在休息"},{"start":27041.192,"end":27042.294,"text":"報告全院委員會現在繼續開會進行委員詢問請陳委員敬語詢問"},{"start":27073.666,"end":27101.982,"text":"好謝謝大會主席我們江副院長那有請我們考試院我們許副院長被提名人請被提名人大許副院長吳安首先要恭喜您被提名為我們本屆次考試院的這個副院長那未來將承擔起健全文官體系的一個重責大任"},{"start":27102.608,"end":27130.841,"text":"那考試院作為我們憲法所規定的一個最高考試機關同時也掌握了整個公部門的一個人事法制那對於提升國家整體公部門的一個效能以及保障公務人員的一個權利負有一個非常重大的一個義務那我們也期待懸缺已久的這個考試院正副院長還有委員都能夠順利的通過審查那讓憲政機關"},{"start":27132.352,"end":27155.948,"text":"的運作能夠儘早回歸常態也讓我們這個考試院的相關業務和這個議案能夠順利的來推展那對於下個月12月17號我們將舉行這個同意全案的投票那我想請教我們副院長您被提名之後您認為這個有沒有這個信心可以通過這個審查"},{"start":27159.442,"end":27181.312,"text":"我們當然希望大院委員這個能夠全力來支持謝謝好那我再次也先預祝預祝我們所有被提名的都能夠順利的過關那由於今天是這個人事同意權的一個審查我想就被提名人我們副院長您個人的部分來做詢問那從您這個自傳裡面的敘述我們這個整個經歷來看"},{"start":27188.15,"end":27211.562,"text":"從美國公讀碩博士回國之後就投入教職8年前從教職轉入到公部門來服務在考選部先後擔任過次長及部長的職務與您上午所審查的院長被提名人周弘憲先生過去8年你們都是在考試院共事"},{"start":27213.035,"end":27232.102,"text":"您負責考試選才的相關業務我們的院長被提名者則是在權序和人事行政的經驗方面兩位之間的資歷和專業恰好互補或許在形式作風上也能夠相輔相成想問"},{"start":27233.468,"end":27250.596,"text":"想請教您未來許副院長您跟周院長的搭配能為考試院帶來何種創新的一個變革以及還有兩位作為考試院的正副院長在推動政務上是否有共同的一個理念"},{"start":27254.929,"end":27283.654,"text":"我跟這個副院長被提名的在考試院有八年的共識的這個經驗那我們之間這個對於推動相關公務體系的相關的改革都會有非常高度的共識那事實上各項的這個配合溝通也都沒有問題所以未來有機會我進入考試院一定會這個潛力來協助我們院長那跟所有考試委員大家一起來努力"},{"start":27285.202,"end":27302.43,"text":"那我想請教那副院長您個人有沒有比較想要達成什麼樣的一個設定的一個目標個人方面我想這個當然未來希望在整個公務體系的"},{"start":27303.109,"end":27323.055,"text":"建制能夠讓年輕人因為我過去負責招考所以希望年輕公務員進入公務體系之後他們會願意待在公部門所以怎麼樣建立一個更友善對年輕人友善的工作環境我想這一方面"},{"start":27324.616,"end":27344.403,"text":"我希望能夠有所琢磨．所以我們也希望能夠在基礎信念這個部分因為考試錄取之後還有一個基礎信念的過程能夠讓他們有更認知到作為公務員的一個重要性在這一方面的一個培訓"},{"start":27345.723,"end":27348.244,"text":"這也是我們大家所期待的考試院在多年來的政策轉型和變革之下"},{"start":27375.723,"end":27400.592,"text":"執掌的代表重要性是不可被替代的往往會受到社會大眾的質疑到了這個2024年的今天考試院的存廢仍然是被廣泛討論的一個議題之一雖然在現在的立法院三黨不過半的情況仍然有許多的委員表達支持廢除考監的想法"},{"start":27401.332,"end":27419.36,"text":"當然對於這個憲政架構的一個變革需要審慎的討論並不是一時一刻就能夠完成但若在本屆國會能夠有一個凝聚共識成功修憲寧可能會是我們這個考試院一個末代的副院長"},{"start":27420.567,"end":27435.167,"text":"作為政治學背景的副院長您被提名對五權或是三權分立的這個主張是什麼是不是也能就您個人的一個意見對考試院存廢的議題來做一個簡單的回應"},{"start":27438.786,"end":27461.78,"text":"我想如果是我個人的見解當然我國的憲法是比較特殊是五權憲法的結構世界各國大部分是以三權分立的這種方式來設計憲法的結構所以如果是要在這一方面去做檢討我是認為應該針對五權憲法跟三權分立這個也能夠有所討論決定之後"},{"start":27464.629,"end":27480.718,"text":"真的是不需要考試院的存在那做調整但是不管怎麼樣子現在考試院就是一個憲政機關不管是末代或什麼代反正做一天一天就是要積極努力你所努力的絕對會留下痕跡你現在做得更好這些功能"},{"start":27481.502,"end":27510.389,"text":"未來轉換到其他機關也會持續下去不會去做這個因為你這個機關不見了這些功能就不重要的而是事實上考試院所做的事情對我們整個政府還是非常重要對公務員、對專機人員這些人才的選拔還是非常重要所以機關不同的設計我想這個部分這個不會影響到個人在一個工作崗位上每一天都應該做"},{"start":27511.329,"end":27524.868,"text":"他的努力好那不論是這個三權或是五權他各有他這個理論上的一個依據也要留待國會和社會共同這個取得共識目前在"},{"start":27525.764,"end":27544.918,"text":"人事行政的業務上行政院和考試院之間是否有相似重疊之處甚至在長遠運作的過程當中彼此之間的優劣如何取捨還有很多要討論的空間我想接下來還是就考試院相關長管的業務以及相關議題看法來"},{"start":27550.647,"end":27563.237,"text":"請問我們副院長也希望您對於以下的這個問題能夠充分表達自身的一個想法和意見那我想我就先對於您最熟悉的這個考選的部分的業務來談起"},{"start":27565.479,"end":27591.632,"text":"結合到這個當前迫切需要的要解決的相關問題我在這裡我想藉此今天的機會特別感謝您在擔任考選部長的任期當中讓這個高普考還有初等考試都能夠順利在宜蘭來增設考區落實各地考生一個權益的平等也讓宜蘭地區的這個考生不必"},{"start":27592.616,"end":27610.865,"text":"周車勞頓趕赴雙北的考場來應考能夠就近應考當然還有許多非六都的縣市都期待考試院能夠降低考生應試相關的成本過去我們也看到國家考試為了因應"},{"start":27612.652,"end":27625.719,"text":"資訊時代推動相關考選業務的精進其中一個就是要符合現今網路世代習慣的電腦還有數位科技使用的習慣我想請教副院長您未來擔任這個職務會如何協助加速推動國家考試的數位轉型"},{"start":27638.33,"end":27647.914,"text":"我想應應新世代慢慢開始加入公部門新世代對應用資訊科技的能力會比較強對我來講因為現在"},{"start":27652.501,"end":27665.594,"text":"這個年輕人也許是事實上用手寫的會比較有障礙啦都是用這個用資訊化的方式來處理也許會降低考試的障礙所以我們積極在推動電腦化測驗的這個轉型"},{"start":27670.543,"end":27690.239,"text":"不過坦白說遭遇到的障礙也是很多的因為我們沒有足夠的資源跟經費所以過去這幾年我接手部長的時候大概只有6000個電腦座位過去這幾年我跟幾位考試委員真的是每一個學校每一個大學去拜託來建制"},{"start":27691.348,"end":27705.847,"text":"目前為止大概增加到一萬六千台但是如果是要辦理大型的考試當然還是相當不足所以這個部分未來除了座位型的那事實上有一個部分就是"},{"start":27707.389,"end":27729.348,"text":"這方面也會再加強演繹當然考試的公正公平性一定會做到不會說有些人用這個有些人用那個這個形式我們會注意但是我想朝向數位化轉型這一方面一定要做那整個測驗不是只有測驗的時候整個的一個系統從考生的報名"},{"start":27730.709,"end":27755.357,"text":"包括這個典事委員他在臨選作業他在命題後續的業縣等等我們都希望能夠完全走向這個知性化那在未來未來我相信剛剛副院長您所說的這個部分應該都會慢慢的一個實現跟著時代走那在未來四年您的任期當中"},{"start":27757.185,"end":27785.246,"text":"會遇到的就是1990年這個末期網路時代出生的一些歷史代的一些學子那仍然是在就業市場中最主要的一批新學那需要由他們為政府部門來注入新的活水但是這個歷史代選擇工作的想法更多元了所重視的價值觀更存在世代的一個差異"},{"start":27786.348,"end":27813.937,"text":"其中比較主流的說法多有提及到歷史代更注重工作與生活之間的一個平衡不接受下班之後或是在假日還要加班更期待能夠平等無階級之分的一個職場那我想請問副院長您過去有沒有跟這些歷史代的學子共識的經驗如何觀察他們所重視的相關內容"},{"start":27817.107,"end":27835.854,"text":"我想我所接觸的歷史代的青年事實上他們都會想要做一些有意義的事情他們認為有意義的事情對於工作上面他們也希望有更多的一個選擇權"},{"start":27837.631,"end":27853.678,"text":"所以公部門的形態那包括疫情之後事實上有很多的企業已經有一部分是居家上班這種方式所以我想公部門在招考歷史代的年輕人進入公部門之後"},{"start":27854.378,"end":27880.626,"text":"能不能讓他們有發揮的空間讓他們有展現他們創意的這些空間那跟同事之間的相處那尤其當然不希望有霸凌這種情況產生如果是有這種情況大概他就會選擇離職所以我們希望有更友善的空間來帶領那帶領一世代我想不是用指揮命令的形式而是用這個"},{"start":27882.594,"end":27886.636,"text":"我常常跟入圍的時候我常常強調不管是委長從委長到這個配體到這個校隊到打字到封裝"},{"start":27910.209,"end":27934.057,"text":"莊定、工友、裡面煮飯的廚師大家一樣重要在這個委長裡面一樣重要每一個環節都要做好一教不能讓二教找到問題二教不能讓三教找到問題這樣一個團隊合作才可能把事情做好而不是說用潛力來指揮可以把事情做好所以部長可以隨時進出委長部長如果常常進去說你這個怎麼這樣做"},{"start":27937.498,"end":27967.101,"text":"那這個考試大概辦不下去所以我想要給公務員發揮的空間那我們希望也給年輕的公務員有適當發揮的空間那我們從這個高普考十年來的這個相關報考率砍半發現到了國考不只受到這個少子化的一個挑戰那更可能是因為多重這個因素使這個鐵飯碗失去一個吸引力"},{"start":27967.93,"end":27989.99,"text":"不受到新鮮人所青睞過去您曾經提到可以參考其他國家的文官制度來吸引年輕人投入公職包括英國的快速升遷方案或是新加坡提早培養公務人才的相關體系但這些我們把這個制度搬回台灣來"},{"start":27990.933,"end":28014.018,"text":"不見得能符合這個體制需求也不保證會有好的一個成效譬如考選部過去也曾經參照新加坡的這個模式推動預備文官團效果就相當的有限但是對面對這個招募人才成效不彰的情況不會只是這個考選部就能"},{"start":28014.685,"end":28035.418,"text":"解決相關的問題考選部若沒有即時的一個因應措施﹐對症下藥未來缺乏心血的這種情況﹐可能會更加的嚴重那以院級的角度來看待這個問題您認為該如何來提高逆世代來報考我們公職的一個意願"},{"start":28038.171,"end":28063.764,"text":"我想一部分剛剛已經說過了我們怎麼樣讓有一個更友善讓年輕人進入部門覺得他有發揮的施展的空間而選擇留下來這部分很重要了所以當然相關的縣職人員的待遇政府也一直在調整這幾年已經調整了11%明年一定又要調整4%多多少少都會有幫助都會有正向幫助那這個"},{"start":28065.732,"end":28080.69,"text":"跟學校的部分我們也在加強合作以前大概很少跟考選部大概很少跟大學做合作考選部以前就是把考試辦好就好那大學生要不要來考國教考試大學生自己決定"},{"start":28081.711,"end":28082.511,"text":"副院長：副院長：邱文彥"},{"start":28099.016,"end":28125.383,"text":"的部分也需要人才也需要學校重視所以我們也已經開始跟學校這個就業部門來合作讓他們知道我們公務體系相關的一些遭受的這個資訊那這個在公務機關的部分我們也希望公務機關能夠協助走入校園現身說法說你這個公務機關在做什麼讓他更了解"},{"start":28125.95,"end":28144.375,"text":"他進入公部門的意義在哪裡他能夠幫人民做什麼事情不是來考試而已他可以做有價值的事情那這個在日本事實上也已經這樣做了日本的各部門在招公務人員事實上他們已經跑到企業前面去了企業還沒到大學去之前他們已經先去了"},{"start":28144.935,"end":28166.609,"text":"所以我想搶人才是這個公司部門大家都很努力的那我們公部門在這一方面我想還有很多可以琢磨的地方我們也會持續再來努力那透過縣級的角度來協助部會應該也會有更有琢磨的空間好 我們政府要推動相關的這些重大的公共建設工程不能夠缺少的在"},{"start":28167.366,"end":28184.41,"text":"公部門相關的專業技術人員這個問題在您擔任考選部長的時候或許沒有辦法透過單打獨鬥的方式來解決但是未來若有機會來承擔考試院副院長時希望能夠整合相關部會之間的合作"},{"start":28185.447,"end":28212.821,"text":"就如同您口頭所報告的內容裡面深知教、考、訓、用之間連結的相關合作的一個重要性那未來是否能結合您的豐富經驗以及院級的一個高度來加強各端的之間的連結是這些跨部會的合作這部分我想我們會積極來努力那我們也希望我希望藉由您過去在考學部的相關歷練"},{"start":28214.321,"end":28238.81,"text":"解決當前公部門用人的困境並且以副院長宏觀的視野能夠進行跨部會來整合甚至跨院間相關的連結在整個未來期待今天我們對於考試院相關人士的審查能夠順利經過充分的"},{"start":28242.207,"end":28258.074,"text":"這個意見交換之後我相信副院長被提名人您也已經做足了相關的準備工作了期待能夠結合過去的相關歷練馬上進入狀況相讓我們院長共同來完善文官體制"},{"start":28258.704,"end":28272.092,"text":"也讓我們考試院能夠作為稱職的一個人力資源部門也作為我們全國公務人員的一個最堅實的一個後盾以上是謝謝副院長謝謝陳委員謝謝貝提米爾下一位請林思敏委員詢問"},{"start":28288.41,"end":28313.725,"text":"我們謝謝副院長接下來請副院長備提名人請備提名人答詢首先我要恭喜許教授備提名為考試院的副院長我想您在環境政治與國際關係的領域有相當豐厚的學術背景"},{"start":28314.847,"end":28320.078,"text":"當然你也在國際的學術期刊有發表很多篇的研究成果"},{"start":28321.178,"end":28334.523,"text":"您學成歸國之後也任教於大專院校．並且擔任了校長職務多年我看您的志傳您在軍中時期服役於海軍陸戰隊．擔任排長．也歷練了組織的領導與發展的專長．累積豐富的經驗"},{"start":28346.772,"end":28366.997,"text":"在2016年您到考試院來服務．立任考選部的政務次長．以及到部長的職務．對於我們考選的行政業務．可以說是非常的熟悉．所以今天本席就要請教您．以您在考選部多年的經驗．"},{"start":28368.917,"end":28392.586,"text":"您要如何回應當前我們國家急需用我們的很多的文官到我們的政府部門來服務以及有關文官考試制度的相關改革的一個需求就幾個問題來救救我們的副院長被提名的人"},{"start":28393.86,"end":28414.273,"text":"首先我們都知道現在我們的警消全國各縣市警消的員額都是非常的欠缺每一位警消人員他要服務的人民可以說是都高達一千多位"},{"start":28415.58,"end":28423.604,"text":"所以我們錦霄的這個編制錦霄的缺額如何要來趕快加以補足啊我想剛才也有很多衛委員也有關心過"},{"start":28424.915,"end":28453.018,"text":"但是我在這邊要特別關心的是對於錦霄人員類別考試應否由身高限制這個問題來請教副院長被提名人我想當年考選部還有保訓會對於這個是否這個錦霄人員的考試類別應該是否要身高的限制那麼當時考選部是持反對是持認為說要有限制的一個立場"},{"start":28454.334,"end":28462.85,"text":"當然最後這個經過我們的這個憲法法庭憲法法庭判制第6號的一個判決作出"},{"start":28464.498,"end":28489.631,"text":"認定說女性報考消防員的身高限制是違憲違反平等權的規定所以許教授您當時擔任考試院部長您並未支持說女性報考消防員的身高限制有違憲的疑慮有違憲之一的看法現在我們的憲法法庭判決說這個是違憲"},{"start":28491.877,"end":28513.888,"text":"也反映出我們整個制度的設計缺乏包容性以及平等性所以想請問副院長被提名的人未來如果您擔任我們的考試院副院長對於這個問題你的立場有否改變第二就是說你未來對於這個問題如果你擔任我們的考試院副院長你要如何來處理這個問題"},{"start":28516.616,"end":28543.752,"text":"好 謝謝委員我想我們有關公務人員應考的相關資格除了公務人員考試法的訂定之外這些相關的特考有關身高、年齡的限制甚至有性別的限制、使用名額性別的限制像法警跟監守管理員"},{"start":28545.643,"end":28559.619,"text":"都是因為用人機關有這個需求那我想站在考選部立場保障這個應考人的權益我們當然不希望有一些太特殊的限制所以這個限制要符合比例原則"},{"start":28560.882,"end":28589.195,"text":"他真的是植物上的西球所以像法檢的部分跟這個監守管理員我們也跟用人機關一直每一年都在做檢討我們希望用科技的方式、裝備的方式、設備的方式但是以目前來講因為用人機關的人力的缺乏還有因為藍泥這個這個監守的藍泥的比例有不同所以他們需要的這個有關像藍泥還是有不同那身高的問題有同樣這些"},{"start":28589.855,"end":28593.036,"text":"有關這個身高的部分考選部在我安面上任之前事實上我們在103年也提過也有提出"},{"start":28619.235,"end":28623.107,"text":"配合用人計劃與需求：也有提出是要降低3公分"},{"start":28624.097,"end":28649.381,"text":"以現在的規定降低3公分也曾經提過這個方案到考試院那時候考試院認為還有一些因素要考量所以最後是沒有通過所以副院長我想你回答的有點離題了所以我就要問你錦霄的問題錦霄這部分因為經過我們憲法裁判立法已經判決出來了所以你未來你要如何的你當任副院長如何來做這個處理"},{"start":28651.219,"end":28665.006,"text":"會議憲法的這個判決的部分跟內政部這邊來討論做適當的修正所以你的立場有改變嗎你也是現在就認為說這個確實是依照憲法的裁判我們的立場是應該要改就要改那盡量用"},{"start":28666.762,"end":28692.729,"text":"我們會朝向這個方向希望你就是朝向這個符合我們憲法裁判意旨和平等權的規定把相關的這些考試的規則做加以修改我們會朝向這個方向第二個問題像我們近期公務部門尤其我們的勞發署最近發生了嚴重的職場霸凌事件"},{"start":28693.749,"end":28711.151,"text":"所以面對我們基層工作人員心理健康與工作壓力這個問題未來您擔任考試院的副院長在考試院你如何來推動我們員工同仁心理的健康與申訴的保障機制"},{"start":28714.625,"end":28742.657,"text":"這部分早上周院長被提名也承諾過希望在下個會期針對保障法的部分能夠提出相關的修正送到大院來那另外在安慰辦法的部分我大概也了解了一下目前的辦法的規定大部分大概就是針對硬體的部分硬體設備設施的部分影響到相關的工作人的身心健康這個部分那"},{"start":28743.854,"end":28760.254,"text":"非硬體的部分包括像霸凌這些問題可能的影響我想這一部分我們希望未來也能夠針對法規的部分再來做檢討希望你們能更積極的推動相關員工心理健康還有申訴的保障機制"},{"start":28761.667,"end":28787.659,"text":"第三個問題我想請問你公職人員最關心的是退府基金的權益過去退府基金委外操作的績效已經是蠻公開的但是自營績效卻缺乏透明度如果您上任我們的考試院副院長您是否支持定期公開前20大的虧損持股我的了解這個對於"},{"start":28791.249,"end":28798.554,"text":"績效好的部分好像是已經有公開的機制如果要公開虧損的部分可能會對這個社會"},{"start":28808.052,"end":28836.768,"text":"一些負面的影響所以這部分可能還要需要再審慎評估因為一般的一般的投資好像也沒有針對虧損的部分去做公開的其實副院長被提名我們希望說考試院站在一個大概應該有這個一個財政的壓力跟我們如何保障公務權權益的這個平衡的權益權益相衡的情況之下我覺得你應該適時的提出"},{"start":28837.368,"end":28839.51,"text":"Iwan Nawi"},{"start":28846.175,"end":28846.675,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":28868.866,"end":28878.245,"text":"到現在連平均績效還好可是其中有一年就是111年那一年是國際的市場不好所以那一年是互得"},{"start":28879.468,"end":28902.451,"text":"那未來有沒有可能在這種國際景氣不太好的情況之下我們自行操作還是說這個委託的部分還是有正成長的可能性這方面怎麼樣努力這當然牽涉到風險的控管還有資產的配置我想這方面我想容許我們上任之後仔細再來做檢討跟了解"},{"start":28902.791,"end":28915.858,"text":"非常被提名我們希望說你能夠更公開更透明讓我們這些退休的公務人員他們在自行選擇投資的時候能夠更了解給他們一個參考的一個資訊考試院這部分你們是責無旁貸OK"},{"start":28921.141,"end":28937.397,"text":"另外再請問我們蕭美琴副總統在今年的5月31號她宣布考試委員被提名人的時候提到說您在考選部服務八年期間完成包括加速建制、電腦化的考察"},{"start":28938.078,"end":28957.591,"text":"公務人員的考試檢科、建構離島特考制度等多項重要的業務改革並在疫情期間靈活應變調度讓國家考試順利辦理完成本席請就您擔任考選部長任內對於成立國家考試數位轉型推動小組"},{"start":28960.653,"end":28986.682,"text":"曝化加速國考數位化的轉型以及高普考試數位化的確實我想這個確實有提升我們的效率那我也這個競表讚許但是否也可能因為這樣子會加劇偏鄉考生的數位資源的差距你有沒有具體的方案來協助我們偏鄉的考生克服技術與資源上的不平等"},{"start":28989.5,"end":29016.34,"text":"跟委員報告當然分成兩部分一部分就是平常對於資訊數位學習的一個應用我知道目前教育部有推動斑斑有平板電腦這個政策我想這一部分應該也會適當的改善偏向數位資源的差跡未來我們在考試上當然也會努力來建置這個符合的"},{"start":29017.02,"end":29017.22,"text":"主席"},{"start":29044.842,"end":29072.061,"text":"再問你第五個問題您在考選部任內推動了高普考的檢科政策但是這樣的一個檢科政策也引發考用落差以及基層專業能力不足的疑慮請問您如何評估這些改革成效各位委員報告考科的專業科目的減少不見得會降低它的核心能力我們因為"},{"start":29073.24,"end":29096.591,"text":"公務員考試是用總分級格式的方式所以考六個科目這六個科目不見得都是核心科目所以讓硬考人反而是有機會他用其他科目來補核心科目他可能比較差的情形所以有可能他的核心科目最需要的那一部分他可能考得比較低可是其他會核心科目他考得比較高"},{"start":29097.813,"end":29105.744,"text":"可能會造成其實他考上的人也許他是非核心科目包括普通科目的加進來讓他入期的"},{"start":29106.314,"end":29132.047,"text":"那我們限收之後計較在核心科目這個部分那他就針對核心的科目必須要強中更強所以我想不會影響到他的其實那個副院長被提名其實外界也是批評說你這樣考試科目啊診病之後會造成削弱我們的專業性就考上的考生他可能專業性會不足"},{"start":29133.634,"end":29161.152,"text":"您的看法怎麼樣我們在這個技術類科的部分目前這個還是需要保留像土木工程那大家認為還是要有六個科目做為核心科目我們還是有保留六個科目但是對於行政類的包括行政類很多的行政事實上你一進來公部門之後他也是這個部門那個部門去流通"},{"start":29162.065,"end":29170.26,"text":"那很快的跟他你所考的專業科目是什麼其實比較沒有那麼息息相關所以未來我們希望用性向測驗針對"},{"start":29172.216,"end":29192.354,"text":"以言、邏輯推理、再學習能力這一方面能夠去做加強知識的斷層跟變化也越來越快所以一輩子的潛力跟再學習能力才是未來公園您認為說外界的疑慮是多餘的其實這樣的一個整併不會影響整個考試的專業性不會降低"},{"start":29195.817,"end":29220.265,"text":"外界的疑慮我覺得因為這個資訊的落差也一定會有這種想法但是我想我們一定是精進這個考用的人才考用的合一這個方向在走所以你評估你這樣做它的效益是正面的是不是負面的對至少對於像這個報名人數一直在下降那檢科之後報名人數已經稍微提升了提升好接下來我再請問你"},{"start":29221.565,"end":29231.771,"text":"目前我們新住民的考試參與力參與的比例非常低偏低所以你是否支持新住民享有與原住民類似的加分制度"},{"start":29233.049,"end":29257.085,"text":"報告委員嚴柱銘事實上是沒有加分國考嚴柱銘沒有加分他在上大學也許有加分但是國家考試的部分沒有加分只是說我們有特別幫嚴柱銘這個辦一個嚴柱銘的考試特考那你一定要是嚴柱銘才能夠來參加新柱銘的未來新柱銘新柱銘的部分參與太低了來參加考試的偏低"},{"start":29257.785,"end":29275.351,"text":"新住民的部分如果說要設新住民事務的一個考試類科這個基本上只要用來鼓勵新住民他來參加我們的國考對 如果是有需要新住民考試的類科只要用人機關提出來我想這一部分都可以來增設"},{"start":29276.67,"end":29299.687,"text":"那如果是要像原住民比照和原住民有一個特考的方式這一部分大概要修法那必須要尋求社會的共識我想現在全台灣新住民非常的多啊快一百萬人啊未來對於新住民如何鼓勵他也加入到我們的同部門來做服務也希望有更多新住民針對他們的族群我們也讓他能夠透過國家考試制度"},{"start":29300.807,"end":29316.019,"text":"來去對他們的權益做一個保障我想這部分考試院未來也可能要做積極的相關的研究像原住民的部分沒有參加原住民特考他在其他的考試也可以參加那這一部分也可以透過一些適當的機制來輔導他們參加考試"},{"start":29319.801,"end":29341.557,"text":"最後我要再請教被提名人您在您的自傳中所提到的為了因應未來的新世代人才的招募持續要倡議預備文官團的理念與構想並帶領同仁完成新世代考選策略白皮書想請問說預備文官團的計畫要如何具體落實"},{"start":29342.868,"end":29371.081,"text":"是否有配套措施﹐確保偏鄉與弱勢學生﹐也能公平參與所謂的﹐新世代考選策略白皮書﹐的一個相關的改革計畫跟委員報告﹐一輩文團﹐我想過去這幾年﹐我們只實施過兩次﹐當然是屬於培訓﹐培訓營的方式﹐跟地方政府合作"},{"start":29371.98,"end":29385.994,"text":"那他的成效是有參加過義北文文團的﹖也的確有好幾位都考上了公務員甚至有些參加學員進來參加之後他就跟我們說他以為公務員都是在看報紙"},{"start":29387.625,"end":29388.886,"text":"我以前有問過教育部青年發展署"},{"start":29418.23,"end":29443.757,"text":"每一年有那麼多人參加他們的公部門見習到底有多少人進入公部門他們沒有這個統計資料所以我們未來是希望跟教育部這邊合作他們在辦理這個到公部門見習的之前的這些講習我們有參與的機會所以未來預備文官團的這個計畫呢不會再繼續推展我是希望跟這個保興會這邊"},{"start":29445.814,"end":29468.859,"text":"培養年輕的科長和專研這一些如果說有潛力的來選拔讓他們經過相當的訓練包括國外移地訓練之後未來他有潛力再往上來發展朝這個模式來發展副院長被提名我想最後給你一個期許當然我們這個"},{"start":29470.854,"end":29477.587,"text":"除了要有改革服務的熱忱我想人民更關心的您的政策是否真正能夠落實為國家"},{"start":29479.147,"end":29500.319,"text":"建立更健全的文官考試體制以及我們的文官用人的制度也期許說你要為國家選拔更優秀的公務及專技人才所以當然這個問題可能是沒時間了但是就是說希望您能夠用您的學術成就以及背景來為國舉財"},{"start":29508.171,"end":29534.5,"text":"好 謝謝林委員 謝謝被提名接下來我們請劉建國委員詢問好 謝謝主席有請考試院副院長被提名我們請被提名答詢"},{"start":29539.09,"end":29562.471,"text":"副院長部長好先跟你恭喜可以成為考試院副院長的被提名人我想這是一個榮耀未來可以當上考試院的副院長更是任重道遠為國取材的重責大任將在您的身上但是首先要面對到一大課題這個被提名應該知道公文人員從2012"},{"start":29565.742,"end":29583.077,"text":"這個報考人數在2012年的時候是將近80萬一直到現在一直到現在2023年還沒有統計出來那您知道2022年就10年的時間現在差不多一年的報考率是多少人數你有這個資料嗎人數"},{"start":29588.837,"end":29606.222,"text":"目前我手上沒有這個人數但是我知道這幾年當然是持續在下降所以我們也進行了考試方式的調整包括應試科目的這個調整那今年高不高已經沒有再往下降了是稍微有點提升"},{"start":29607.955,"end":29624.911,"text":"您可以跟我講說你覺得如果這10年裡面下降到幾個Posture算是非常嚴重幾個Posture算是嚴重幾個Posture算是還可接受能不能簡單說一下跟委員報告我想這個"},{"start":29626.636,"end":29641.064,"text":"以我們目前這幾年的統計跟觀察過去這幾年我們也公布了高普考各校入期的情形那個前世大那看起來事實上進入公部門的這個"},{"start":29644.99,"end":29658.255,"text":"這個等於是我們通過考試的這個值的部分並沒有並沒有太大的改變當然報名人數量的部分是有下降所以我比較關心的是希望"},{"start":29660.149,"end":29676.326,"text":"進入公部門的年輕人可以留在公部門不是不是這個應該是被聽人沒有回答我的問題啦我知道當然在後端如果處理得當是大家要追求的嘛是您要追求的重點是你的母數如果一直在縮減相對著"},{"start":29678.871,"end":29703.241,"text":"在進入到公部門這一端就會出的大問題這是相對的嘛對不對所以我才會簡單請教你就以你的經驗嘛因為畢竟你從次長部長一直到未來的這個副院長那要報考公務員的體系從2012年他將近有八十萬到2022年我覺得就可以跟被提名提供訊息嘛他剩下他剩下三十幾萬"},{"start":29705.541,"end":29729.453,"text":"這十年來累減的將近56%快到57%了我個人覺得這是非常嚴重這幾年的影響當然還有包括少子化的影響大學生、畢業生少也是因素我們希望當然這個大學生的減少大概到我記得沒錯應該是到117年位置下滑到117年"},{"start":29731.141,"end":29750.001,"text":"那可能到這個時間點再來評估這個會比較準確一點不過基本上不希望再有太大弧度的一個下法是吧 但是這個因素就稱如剛才貝蒂美所提到的少子化的因素之一嘛 對不對但是他應該還有其他的因素你們有做過相關的一些調查過嗎"},{"start":29751.4,"end":29778.112,"text":"其他的因素就是因為工作型態的改變新世代年輕人價值的選擇還有市場因素這一方面市部門吸引人才這一方面的力道也在加強這個現象不是我們台灣這樣而已我們到日本看過日本也遭遇這個問題年輕世代比較不願意加入工部門也是有這些相關的問題存在"},{"start":29779.679,"end":29791.469,"text":"我不曉得在日本對公務人員的定義是什麼那如果在台灣對公務人員的定義這個職位叫做替本話對不對那現在這個替本話好像已不受年輕人的欽柴"},{"start":29792.523,"end":29818.07,"text":"除了剛才貝琳美所提到的說可能是私部門本身的這些企業民間的這個力道整個職場的環境也優於這個我們的公務的部門的相關這樣的環境這可能也是一個比例之一但是絕對它絕對不是一個絕對多數所以我才會請教說你們有做過比較詳細的這樣一個盤查嗎主要是什麼原因"},{"start":29820.448,"end":29844.98,"text":"我們是沒有做過這方面的調查說這個你為什麼要來報告我那我就請你未來當副院長的時候就應該好好詳細去做調查了那我再給副院長看一個未來的副院長看一個資料你看喔他不只是這個年輕世代對公務員已經沒有給他吸引力這替本我人已經沒什麼想要捧在我而且端的人年齡層越來越高"},{"start":29846.738,"end":29872.928,"text":"可以看一下這個表格18到29歲是佔了13.5630到39是25左右將近2640到4927左右50到5927左右60當然是5%以上也就是說截至到今年6月底行政機關公務人員的這個平均年齡已經來到43歲了離我們這個中高齡的定義其實差1歲多了因為明年可能就破43歲多了對不對"},{"start":29874.729,"end":29888.37,"text":"這個有科學數據的未來的副院長應該非常清楚不是說一定全部都要年輕人但是年輕人有一段比例他可能執行上在行政上的效率產生的效益有一定的科學的一些根據"},{"start":29889.533,"end":29914.64,"text":"這應該副院長可以認同嘛你看我們現在目前為止不只要去報考人數逐年下降而且下降到這麼恐怖然後聯姻層疲倦一直在往上推高那我才會想說您當了副院長之後如果擦亮這個公務人員的招牌可以吸引更多的年輕人願意進到這公務體系大家一起來為國家做事為人民來服務"},{"start":29916.867,"end":29938.112,"text":"所以這個如果是在考試的方面可能有部分我們也可以思考那我們目前對於高考的部分高考三級是要大學畢業才能考那普考的部分不用大學畢業可是如果普考部分不用大學畢業就能考他如果考上之後他不能保留"},{"start":29939.653,"end":29960.414,"text":"他必須要放棄學業或者是放棄這個被錄取的機會所以這個部分有沒有可能他在大學考上的時候有沒有可能這個有一個調整的空間或怎麼樣還有一定要學這個學歷的大學畢業才能夠考公務員高考三級嗎我記得去日本去看日本"},{"start":29961.104,"end":29986.416,"text":"很多公務員其實也是日本東京大學畢業尤其外交官他們名片拿出來會寫東京大學異業為什麼要寫東京大學異業我們這邊大概就不敢寫說我大學沒有畢業他們這樣寫是表示說其實他大學沒有畢業就考上外交官比畢業才考上還厲害所以我想這個在"},{"start":29988.703,"end":30010.081,"text":"考試端當然這些問題我們都可以去做思考但是當然也影響到牽涉到相關很多人的潛意也要慎重那當然政府這幾年一直在加薪這一部分也是會有一些吸引力但是我覺得像初等考試的部分初等考試的部分事實上他的初任"},{"start":30012.628,"end":30034.895,"text":"初等考試我們是沒有學歷限制但是坦白說大部分百分之九十幾還是大學畢業在考所以這個有高資低用的問題還有他的薪資真的是比較低所以他的考試效益也造成為什麼好像公務員統計好像離職率蠻高的其實他是考上初等考試但是那個"},{"start":30036.235,"end":30058.383,"text":"他會重考重考再往更高階的去考所以這部分初等考試的部分我們是不是有檢討空間甚至他的待遇的部分是不是能夠有檢討空間尤其像土木工程的部分你是不是還要保留普考我們在高考三級都已經很難找到人才了你還要讓他進來是普考等級的"},{"start":30059.003,"end":30085.979,"text":"我想這些都是可能有討論跟...副院長畢竟我給你蠻多時間做答覆啦因為我時間有限,剩下一半時間從不要學藝的限制參考日本的案例或怎麼樣我想應該你心中也有一些互換啦那這樣我覺得很正向啦當然還有其他部分也是站在考試院主管一個面向他必須要去注意的事情嘛這陣子鬧得揮揚你的這個"},{"start":30088.641,"end":30101.76,"text":"公務體系霸凌的事件應該你有所耳聞其實這個是在老花署北溫署那個是我揭露的就是不到兩年時間北溫署既然可以離職"},{"start":30105.928,"end":30132.988,"text":"離職調職的將近81人如果坦白講再把這一個輕生的同仁加進來是82人不是81人他只是因為戴良跟同事之間的這種感情大家努力在打拼所以他才沒有在很短時間離開但這個事件又告訴我們他另外一個更深層的他裡面只有將近17個主管也一併調職、降職甘願跑去到地方政府的區公所"},{"start":30135.522,"end":30142.63,"text":"這個在考試院在人事總署都沒有一個預警的機制兩年劈哩啪啪的吊了請辭的這麼多人"},{"start":30145.492,"end":30165.049,"text":"你講我們把好的人才招進到公務體系招好進來到公務體系我們就有保護他照顧他的這樣的一個責任嘛因為他要為我們國家做事嘛對不對那這個職場怎麼變成這樣然後我們在經過三四天之後剛好昭緯又排了這個專報我又問了老花署本署"},{"start":30166.229,"end":30187.674,"text":"還知道他的狀況不亞於北魂署所以署長直接自己答覆不到兩年的時間他足足在他的單位裡面調職、請職的、降職的提早退休的高達102人這個在公務體系裡面我不曉得啦對不起考試院相關的機關有沒有這種問題的存在"},{"start":30190.216,"end":30215.885,"text":"考試院這邊我比較沒有聽過有這些相關的問題不是 你是沒有聽說過嘛 對不對那你們有沒有怎麼樣一個堅持那個系統的機制去看到這些資料我們現在有跟人總那邊有在合作建構一個自信平台把相關的數據能夠整合在一起我那天也是特別問了人總 問了全序部好 全序部有馬上可以提供所謂的離職的資料"},{"start":30219.118,"end":30238.998,"text":"但是調子的資料人總沒辦法提供出來然後就成為你所講的要整合那你可以跟我講嗎這個機制為什麼台灣已經走到數位這麼前進行政院還是一個AI創新的行動內閣怎麼會這個整合你知道他們怎麼打我嗎權敘部的代表跟人事總書的代表跟我講說"},{"start":30241.129,"end":30261.782,"text":"還要等到明年我問他明年的第一季、第二季、第三季沒有辦法答覆我的但是以我個人的認知其實類似這些問題產生人事部門就應該有警覺性了為什麼短期內有這麼多人要調動他們應該要了解這些因素把這些因素去做適當的處理"},{"start":30263.939,"end":30288.332,"text":"今天就是有自己的這個機關的主管本身沒有去了解沒有去注意還是被蒙蔽我們不清楚但是會調職會請職的這個情況之下也不一定全然都是霸凌有可能性騷有可能是工作壓力太大就像比分署這位同仁他是一個正式的公務人員這個單位就只有他一個人"},{"start":30289.298,"end":30318.283,"text":"其實他就是越顧的所以公文的籤花等等所謂法定的事情幾乎是他一個人要承擔所以他也有工作量的問題我們看到相關的一些報導訊息還有這個勞動部答覆的他從一天的工作時間是超過正常人的一倍以上這個當然會壓垮這個駱駝最後跟稻草嘛對不對那我現在是表達就是說除了他們自己的上級去"},{"start":30319.407,"end":30341.241,"text":"去瞭解我們考試院還是人事總署我們要建制的這樣的一個系統怎麼需要拖到明年所以我想我們上任之後會積極來看是不是有可能建立一個疫情機制如果是一個機關裡面的流動力超過多少是不是就應該要做適當的檢討這樣的一個疫情機制"},{"start":30341.909,"end":30364.29,"text":"好了,未來的副院長就具體承諾了越快的速度來建制我想還是保障公務員考進來已經不簡單了不要輕易的說放棄在這個資格上為國家努力做事的這個機會嘛,對不對那你的經歷裡面也有當過大學校長嘛我們一般的考都是上對下"},{"start":30366.001,"end":30385.602,"text":"現在大學很多老師給學生打成績學生也可以反饋意見這個老師到底做得好不好學校還會依據學生的意見來對這個老師是不是要做怎樣的一個處分甚至以解聘都有可能那為什麼公共體系沒有這個機制"},{"start":30387.693,"end":30415.827,"text":"這部分我想我們也會來探討現在的考評大部分就是上對下不過也有同儕的考評有沒有可能下對上的這一方面的相關的考評機制我想它的合適性跟適當性我想我們也會來這個試考我提醒那副院長被提名的因為我們的公務員院考計劃是在民國96年修正後到現在足足17年沒有動過那我剛剛提到這事情其實之前都已經有討論過但是就一直不動"},{"start":30417.438,"end":30440.671,"text":"那如果你當過副院長之後 是不是願意來發動就這樣而已 簡單就答覆我 願不願意最近有在研議 事實上之前有在研議考計畫的一個修正不過因為那個等地的問題還有牽涉到連公眾的問題又停下來那我想我會協助院長在這一方面再跟前序部大家人總積極來討論事實上"},{"start":30442.919,"end":30467.824,"text":"應該要做一些適當的修正尤其也不要讓年輕人一進公部門他的考試可能就是最差的對他的這個在公部門的信心就會受到打擊你這樣打呼我就當成副院長被提名就是正式有做這樣的承諾要進行這個工人考試法的這個修法的這樣的一個發動好不好那最後一件事情嘛北溫署的這個憾事延伸很多問題很多面向問題他絕對不是單一個問題嘛"},{"start":30469.673,"end":30489.548,"text":"已經離開的這個核檢部長他特別強調有系統性的人力缺乏問題這個系統性的人力缺乏問題又牽涉到很多的階層跟面向好比說考試院已經核定了這個機關多少元額法定的元額"},{"start":30490.441,"end":30517.137,"text":"但是很多機關他的原額可以補喔有的是沒有辦法補找不到人才可以補有的是可以補但是他的首長就還要還要怎樣他要去handle就要去預留一些空間這個會員長應該聽過吧之前包含司法院包含法務部都有這樣的狀況我在法治委員會一直要求當時的蔡前部長"},{"start":30518.177,"end":30536.532,"text":"你去掌握這一個可以給你的法定原理的用意是什麼他解釋很多啦他也說了很多啦人力就不足了啊怎麼會你們核定給他他不把這一個法定的原理去補齊那未來這個事情人家說你沒搞啊系統性的人力就一直在缺乏了"},{"start":30538.709,"end":30547.934,"text":"這個機關的首長在運用這個人意上的一個調配的情況之下他不在一定的時間把法定的這個原理去補齊你們要怎麼因應跟處置"},{"start":30550.156,"end":30577.396,"text":"顏額部分我知道有編制顏額還有預算顏額那至於各機關的所長他當用人的前線他對這些顏額的調配我們有沒有什麼的方式可以去做適當的一個調整我想這個考試院有沒有這個前線還需要再進一步了解我給這個未來副院長看一個資料彰化縣你看他的顏額"},{"start":30578.912,"end":30601.078,"text":"實際原則是2799今年有555人提出申請這些員警不練戰、嘆、不如歸去這是一件事情這是一件事情然後這邊報導其實基本上其實在反映基層員警的不勝負荷這樣的一個相關的一些業務那2799一次退休555人將近佔了五分之一以上了"},{"start":30608.885,"end":30632.265,"text":"那他能不能在短時間內補齊這又另外一件事情那我剛才特別提到向法務部之前的一些狀況那我知道有法定元額跟預算元額嘛但後來是我們一直要求一直要求才確實也缺乏這樣的一個系統性的人力所以是在當時在委員會的時候一直要求的時候才在那個會期裡面把人員去補足嘛這個其實"},{"start":30633.786,"end":30658.89,"text":"他在那個委會的過程裡面全序部都是有列席的啦他應該非常知道這個狀況理應照理講回到貴院的時候也應該大家都有所討論嘛我就覺得這個不是只有單一的一個機關發生的問題很多機關都有這樣的問題所以我才透過今天要特別提醒未來的副院長這事情你們要怎麼去做相關的因應跟處置所以我想"},{"start":30659.674,"end":30686.78,"text":"這一部分因為牽涉到各機關用人的屬性那我們考試院這一邊如果是在需求的部分我們盡量能夠在考試上面來滿足會長你看110年考試院合併給全國36個法院法定的員友就有19間以上的法院的法請能力為達法定人數他或許照不到也是理由之一"},{"start":30688.473,"end":30692.184,"text":"或許抓得到他的經驗為什麼會拖拖拉拉的"},{"start":30694.162,"end":30720.075,"text":"有很多的因素所以早上有這個委員提醒事實上我們負責法治機關這個也要出去瞭解一下實際執行的情形那未來我們希望上任之後也能夠多找機會瞭解機關面對這些問題我們有哪一些部分可以來協助處理解決因為基本上你們是一定經過相關的一些依據評估才核定他一定的人數對"},{"start":30721.736,"end":30733.032,"text":"總不能說我核定給他之後他做與不做都跟你們沒有關係這樣就不對啊對所以我就提醒副院長這事情要特別注意好不好好謝謝你加油啦好謝謝恭喜謝謝謝謝劉委員謝謝我們備體名人"},{"start":30736.636,"end":30759.427,"text":"報告全院委員會本日下午對考試院副院長、被提名人許舒翔尋答部分到此為止謝謝許被提名人、舒翔列席答詢11月29日星期五下午2點30分繼續開會審查考試院考試委員、被提名人、邱文彥、鄧家基資格之相關事宜現在休息"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}