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劉副司長 會計處副處長黃副處長 能源署吳副署長 還有臺灣電力股份有限公司董事長鄭文森 曾董事長"},{"start":2031.926,"end":2046.65,"text":"今日議程的安排,審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算追加預算案。請行政院主計總處陳主計長進行追加預算案的內容報告。請財政部莊部長進行追加預算案的內容報告。請經濟部郭部長,經濟部。好,接著我們先請陳主計長報告。"},{"start":2070.391,"end":2083.606,"text":"主席（各位委員先進大家好今天應邀列席聯席會議就113年度中央政府總預算追加預算案編列請提出報告由於俄烏戰爭導致國際燃料價格上漲所以臺灣電力公司"},{"start":2088.752,"end":2110.655,"text":"的電燃料成本較二屋戰爭前大幅增加,因為該公司也承擔減緩通膨的一個政策任務,為有效減緩國際燃料飆漲導致電價大幅上漲,還有照顧民生穩定物價,支持弱勢及兼顧產業競爭力,所以該公司以低於用電成本"},{"start":2112.256,"end":2124.66,"text":"來計收電費（所以產生虧損（為了支持維繫公司正常的餘命（使其運行穩定供電使命（行政院依照預算法第79條第3款（第80條之規定（編據完成113年度中央總預算追加預算案（主要內容包括稅數編列1000億元（"},{"start":2133.462,"end":2148.749,"text":"主要是機關別編列經濟部主管1000億元補助台電公司因國際燃料成本上漲為穩定物價及照顧民生弱勢所吸收的用電成本所需要的經費正式別全數編列經濟發展支出1000億元"},{"start":2152.915,"end":2179.883,"text":"那以上稅出追加一千億元（原來規劃他是以用以前年度稅基剩餘（為裁員來支應（因為112年總決算所產生的稅基剩餘（必須到113年7月審計部審定之後（使得運用（所以5月提出的時候（追加預算時先行編列舉借債務（等預算執行時在審計部（審定後的一個稅基剩餘來支應（就上追加預算的結果（"},{"start":2181.003,"end":2186.065,"text":"稅入為2兆7252億元．稅出為2兆9519億元．稅入稅出差短為2267億元．臨潮債務還本1150億元．和供需融資3417億元．以花型公債2571億元．及已用以前年度稅計剩以846億元．予以彌品"},{"start":2205.211,"end":2212.842,"text":"以上報告近期主席及各位委員、理事先生會議指教並鼎力支持祝大家健康快樂萬事如意謝謝"},{"start":2228.823,"end":2258.295,"text":"主席各位委員先進今天聯席會議審查113年度中央政府總預算追加預算案本人呈要列席以下緊究財源籌措情形作檢要報告臺電公司近年因為國際燃料成本上漲為了穩定物價照顧民生以及支持弱勢吸收用電成本所需要的經費那麼為了支持維繫該公司正常營運達成穩定供電的使命所以提出本追加預算案補助該公司"},{"start":2258.855,"end":2268.861,"text":"一千億元。那麼財源規劃是移用以前年度的稅計剩餘由於編列的時候是因為112年度的中央政府總預算所產生的稅計剩餘還沒有經過審計部的審定所以先編列取借債務等到預算執行的時候再會以稅計剩餘來做支應113年度中央政府總預算並計本追加預算案以後稅務是維持不變編列是兩兆七千兩百五十二億元"},{"start":2287.312,"end":2294.897,"text":"稅出則是編列兩兆9519億元稅入稅出差短2267億加計債務還本1150億融資需求是3417億規劃移用以前年度稅計剩餘846億以及舉借債務2571億來支應那麼實際執行的時候會議上開的規劃優先移用以前年度的稅計剩餘來支應本追加預算案的稅出需求"},{"start":2317.032,"end":2324.338,"text":"截至113年10月底（中央政府一年以上公共債務未償餘額（實際數為5兆8780億（暫前3年度明目GDP的平均數是26%（到113年底長期債務餘額的預算數（依照公債法第5條的規定是按照112年底中央政府長期債務"},{"start":2340.674,"end":2344.239,"text":"餘額的實際數5兆8188億元聯同歷年的特別預算融資調度保留數2397億在加計113年度含本追加預算案的預計債務舉借數並扣除債務還本數以後"},{"start":2357.865,"end":2365.689,"text":"預估到113年底（中央政府長期債務餘額是6兆7200億元（占前3年度明目GDP的平均數是29.7%（低於公共債務法所定的債務存量上限40.6%（但是在實際執行的時候（因為112年中央政府總決算稅計剩餘足以支應本追加預算案（"},{"start":2381.176,"end":2386.259,"text":"無須擠借債務另外因為113年度我們總預算的稅務執行良好原編列的債務舉借全數都沒有舉借後續將會依公債法第12條第二項規定以及大院的決議就稅客收入10增數超過預算數部分的5%我們會增加債務還本到時候113年度的長期債務餘額及債務比率都可以下降"},{"start":2406.929,"end":2435.027,"text":"為了財政永續來支援國家長遠的發展本部將會根據會同各部會推動開源節流發揮財政資源運用的效能並且嚴守公共債務法以及財政紀律法相關的規定落實債務管控並兼顧經濟發展以及財政穩健來因應國家建設及政務推動的需要並作為經濟發展後盾以上報告敬請各位委員會與支持以及指教謝謝"},{"start":2436.59,"end":2437.793,"text":"請經濟部聯次長進行追加預算內容的報告"},{"start":2452.048,"end":2478.175,"text":"今天聯席會審查113年度中央政府總預算追加預算案感謝各位委員對經濟部各項業務的協助與指教本追加預算案即編列1000億元是益助臺電公司因國際燃料成本上漲為穩定物價及照顧民生弱勢所吸收用電成本之經費僅報告如下今年受疫情及歐洲戰爭影響全球面臨國際燃料"},{"start":2480.291,"end":2491.401,"text":"上場各國電力均承擔巨大的財務壓力許多國家的電力產生具有的虧損例如華國國營電力2022年虧損了5700億元韓國國營電力自2021年起連續3年虧損其虧損合計將近新台幣1兆元我國為維持物價穩定"},{"start":2501.77,"end":2520.164,"text":"（減緩通膨．由臺電公司先行吸收燃料成本漲勢．因電價未能及時反映成本．．截至今年9月底累計虧損4000億元．．未能反映成本．．各國大幅調漲電價．．不僅調到早．．調到高．．會推升到通膨．．以住宅用電來說．．"},{"start":2522.285,"end":2524.628,"text":"到2023年間．法國電價累計上漲37%．韓國漲49%．英國漲79%．工業用電方面．法國電價上漲139%．韓國漲87%．英國漲120%．年代使2023年CPI年增率達3.6%．6.72%．"},{"start":2546.249,"end":2552.312,"text":"相較之下我國會維持物價穩定減緩民生經濟衝擊採取反漲電價政策2022年到2024年電價平均調5合計低於40%目前調整後工業電價平均4.27元對標韓國工業電價今年的10月24號調整9.7%之後預估為4.77兩者之間的差距還有12%也低於法國工業電價5.35"},{"start":2574.659,"end":2581.764,"text":"我國因電價調整幅度相對緩和而且細緻化2023年CPI年增利2.49%低於其他國家有效地減緩國際燃料價格上漲帶來的輸入性通膨的壓力因應此波燃料漲勢許多國家除了調整電價之外也透過財政補助作為配套措施以穩定國內物價及減輕用戶的負擔例如2022年到2024年間法國採取"},{"start":2603.106,"end":2619.912,"text":"政府補助約新台幣7000億元．日本政府也補助了5500億元．我國政府也在2023年編列一二特別預算．補助台電500億元．可見各國政府為了緩解能源價格大漲．對經濟和社會造成衝擊．也協助電力維持．"},{"start":2626.437,"end":2641.168,"text":"臺電近3年來因穩定物價及照顧民生弱勢所吸收的用電成本超過2800億元,秉持政府穩定物價、照顧民生及弱勢族群的一個政策。我國近3年來在住宅及小商店電價都踩動漲。"},{"start":2642.489,"end":2647.672,"text":"臺電公司每年吸收民生用電成本要到800到1000億元,2022年到2024年間吸收民生用電成本超過2800億元,這也是導致臺電公司產生巨額虧損的主要原因。"},{"start":2667.641,"end":2681.036,"text":"我國採取多元做法來確保電力永續經營及續行供電穩定的使命為達成充分及穩定供應的目標臺電公司近年規劃加速加強推動電網潤性建設計畫"},{"start":2683.739,"end":2689.803,"text":"同時為了要強化臺電公司的財務結構政府近兩年累計增資臺電公司2500億元但是增資只是用於電力建設僅能強化臺電公司體質無法彌補累積的虧損為減少臺電公司配額政策所吸收的成本所以政府特別針對臺電公司因民生用電為調組差額"},{"start":2707.455,"end":2731.696,"text":"先在2023年一月特別預算編列500億元的補助（這一次再提出追加預算（預注臺電公司1000億元（以支持電力永續經營（持續推動各項重要電力建設（續行穩定供電的使命（以上緊就經濟部113年度（中央政府總預算追加預算案（編列情形做減料報告（懇請各位委員先進（會以支持與指教謝謝"},{"start":2734.513,"end":2756.039,"text":"現在開始詢答先做以下的宣告每位出席的委員花言時間是5分鐘必要的時候都延長2分鐘每位列席的委員花言的時間是4分鐘那今天上午10點截止花言的登記那現在以登記花言的順序請登記第一位林德胡委員質詢"},{"start":2766.515,"end":2783.104,"text":"主席、議會各列席的官員、各部位的官員、部長、次長、各位同仁首先是不是請經濟部長次聯次長還有臺電的曾董事長你好"},{"start":2794.282,"end":2809.696,"text":"首先我要特別恭喜中華隊贏得這一次世界棒球12強強賽的冠軍,成功把冠軍獎盃從日本帶回台灣,跟國人共同來分享他的榮耀。"},{"start":2812.518,"end":2832.452,"text":"臺電棒球隊歷年來也培育出很多很厲害的國手12強賽中華隊的陳潔炫也曾是臺電棒球隊的一員本席也肯定臺電公司數十年來持續替臺灣體壇培育出很多優秀的選手"},{"start":2841.217,"end":2863.604,"text":"我請問臺電的曾董事長,1億4年是我有規劃擴大招募有沒有報告委員,那個我們會擴大招募除此之外我們可能也會將我們的一些規則做一些調整現在公司正在研議那也跟委員報告就是臺電的球員我們現在是希望說如果他們有可能進一步有機會到職業隊去比賽"},{"start":2866.865,"end":2879.617,"text":"退役之後如果他願意回到臺電臺電依然會保留他的工作機會這個事情可以讓他們比較放心的願意到世界上舞臺比賽這也是一個加油鼓勵跟肯定"},{"start":2882.321,"end":2910.562,"text":"我想2023年美國前六大這個市長這個貨品的貿易逆差來源國依序排列為中國大陸、墨西哥、越南、德國、日本、加拿大還有我們台灣是排名第九名那現在美國總統當選人川普已經表示即將簽署行政命令針對墨西哥和加拿大"},{"start":2912.664,"end":2916.746,"text":"克徵25%的關稅並且將對中國大陸商品加徵10%的關稅本席一直認為對臺美21世紀貿易倡議協定後續談判不樂觀美國可預期的高關稅將增加臺商外移美國設廠的壓力"},{"start":2938.678,"end":2944.55,"text":"那臺美避免雙重課稅協定是我又要再重新再談談判"},{"start":2951.567,"end":2969.722,"text":"臺商現在目前是做國際佈局,但是因為剛好委員有提到在墨西哥那一塊我們臺商這些電子產業在那一邊去,那一部分可能會稍微受到一點衝擊目前我們也跟廠商說要怎麼在美國跟墨西哥這邊去做佈局"},{"start":2971.343,"end":2972.784,"text":"未來面對美國關稅的壓力﹖如何讓企業跟留台灣﹖避免產業空洞化﹖"},{"start":2989.755,"end":2989.775,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":3007.722,"end":3034.322,"text":"委員所談的有一些在墨西哥那邊投資量還蠻大的那他是輸出到美國那這一部分我們有請廠商要去做妥適的因應那至於其他機械工具機這一部分我們可能還會有點受益我認為這個要事前這個及早的規劃我想因為美國總統當選人川普表示就任後會盡快讓俄烏戰爭結束"},{"start":3037.455,"end":3063.328,"text":"而其提名的準國家安全顧問若茲表示為了讓俄羅斯坐上談判桌放鬆對俄國的制裁或許是一個誘因但目前我國經濟部為防堵我國高科技貨品涉入俄羅斯軍事的武器用途"},{"start":3064.195,"end":3086.427,"text":"那這種管制,多種工具機對俄羅斯出口有管制很多的這些工具機對俄羅斯的出口那如果2025年美國跟歐洲國家相繼解除對俄羅斯管制時對此,我想經濟部的政策是否有根據歐美的做法而有所調整"},{"start":3087.788,"end":3105.293,"text":"我想這個要超前部署啦那搶佔先機還是你認為要維持管制的措施還是放棄俄羅斯的市場我們會配合整個國際的管制規定到時候他們要是鬆綁的話你認為要怎麼做因為國際的規定如果鬆綁的話我們會檢討整個因應國際的鬆綁來做整個整體的一個檢討我認為這是活的啦不要一成不變啦我們就一定要跟國際對比"},{"start":3117.597,"end":3132.811,"text":"立法院預算中心研究指出,臺電發電燃料全數仰賴進口,火力發電成本因為國際市場影響而短期波動劇烈,火力電源配比近八成。"},{"start":3135.253,"end":3135.453,"text":"（財政委員（"},{"start":3156.424,"end":3170.97,"text":"致電量、營運虧損隨之上升。本期是希望政府不要受了臺電而回了這些綠能財團。受害的不只臺電,更是全體納稅人的荷包。"},{"start":3172.21,"end":3200.629,"text":"那個曾董事長因為本期希望尤其是檢調要徹查這些綠能的弊案他們都是一條龍的啦我相信齁那個曾董事長你很清楚政府要務實調整人員的政策配合啊2050年淨零排碳的目標引進國外最新的核能技術那我請問這個經濟部這個連次長跟曾董事長你們有什麼看法"},{"start":3203.326,"end":3215.802,"text":"報告委員,第一個就是臺灣的燃料、能源的部分長期仰賴進口這個是很久以來的事情但是我們現在也希望能夠努力的提高我們自己能源自給率以臺灣來講"},{"start":3217.697,"end":3235.456,"text":"提供再生能源就是提高能源制止率那至於您提到的就是說再生能源是不是長期要由台電來短購這個部裡面也在開始討論首先離岸風電他已經停止短購就是他直接賣給民間那台電現在也在做綠電的小額的綠電的"},{"start":3237.278,"end":3240.542,"text":"臺電買到的綠電能夠轉賣給民間需要的業者那這個當然就會減少臺電在短購的比例那這個部分當然某種程度上來講也可以因為短購的價格還是高於平均售電的價格"},{"start":3256.359,"end":3279.179,"text":"對阿那這樣子的話就可以減少我們整個成本的結構那這個工作其實台電現在已經陸續在做最先開始做的是台電自己開發的案場那接下來我們從民間買來的案場依照再生能源法案條例民間自己可以轉出去那台電收購以後要怎麼轉售電力交易的部分要怎麼進行其實我們在已經在規劃"},{"start":3281.301,"end":3298.836,"text":"最重要的是接下來電液法要修法也會把電液交易的制度更清楚的規劃起來到時候要請委員支持那個像核電廠你要是把它這個整個這個透過法令修訂然後把它展延那個董事長你有什麼看法跟那個次長"},{"start":3300.569,"end":3320.503,"text":"報告委員,站在台電的立場,我們是事業單位,就是法規的規範如何做,我們就依照法規的規範來做。你們就配合,那次長你有什麼看法?因為目前那個法規沒修訂,我們要整理法規。對,那要是修訂呢?你們會不會配合?那這個東西本來在修訂就是要在合會料要能夠處理,而且要有全民共識的情況下。其實過去也那麼長啦。"},{"start":3321.243,"end":3334.513,"text":"因為今天因為核電的關係造成尤其再加上很多綠人都是一條龍我相信大家清清楚楚的因為電力價格攸關產業競爭力及物價水準政府已編列給臺電增資2500億元易後條例撥補500億"},{"start":3343.3,"end":3355.248,"text":"若再加上將在立法院審查2000億元的撥補經費,預計臺電的整個增資加撥補的金額累計差不多5000億,但是電價這3年來已經漲了4次,也推升整個物價便當、無安眠所、包括乳酪飯、民眾外食費等等的增加,荷包的縮水。經濟部其實郭部長跟臺電的曾董事長也認為這次追加預算通過後,"},{"start":3373.42,"end":3376.562,"text":"臺電的理解這一次的補貼基本上是針對2022、2023這幾年臺電已經預先因為沒有漲電價而做的政策負擔"},{"start":3396.152,"end":3424.594,"text":"會不會變成無底洞阿報告委員剛才你提到是未來長期的財務規劃長期的財務規劃我們也有答應立法院我們要在年底前提出一個規劃報告那剛才我也跟您講了大致的方向包含就是說我們會將再生能源短購的部分開始從自己用台電自己的先釋放然後把電力交易市場建立起來因為再生能源現在是我們的產業要出口需要的一個生產要素"},{"start":3425.174,"end":3451.01,"text":"希望台電買到的不用放在台電手上如果可以轉出去我們就會轉出去本期是希望說不要變成無底洞因為台電的虧損一直在擴大而且好像沒有斷而且你不是給民間漲價那不然就是要補這個漏洞而且是一條龍的貪汙講實在話我們都清清楚楚的老百姓我們走到哪裡尤其基層大家都在罵"},{"start":3451.53,"end":3478.589,"text":"那個跟委員報告我覺得您也是臺電的眷屬啦齁我要說一件事臺電沒有貪汙啦這件事真的要跟委員報告我跟你講不是你們貪汙就是政府縱容他們綠電光電大家清清楚楚你包括這一次這個臺研也是一樣啊對不對它上面勾結下面整個一條龍大家心知肚明那為什麼會虧損連連這個都有關係啦我相信政府要檢討啦"},{"start":3480.149,"end":3481.69,"text":"主席,麻煩請財政部專部長"},{"start":3511.445,"end":3517.008,"text":"委員長 你說剛剛報告裡面講說今天這個預算會編列為暫時的這個是因為暫時是1000億是因為112年度的這個稅計剩餘要經過審計部審定之後才能夠事實上是不會根本就是超過"},{"start":3538.359,"end":3541.707,"text":"一百一十二年的稅基正餘什麼時候審定啊?"},{"start":3544.278,"end":3567.363,"text":"一般都是在7月的時候審定那今年的7月已經過了,已經過了4個月了那因為當時在編這個追加預算的時間是在7月之前但是你現在已經知道了啊現在已經確定,所以我們在報告裡面講因為在編列這個追加預算案的時候,審計部的那個還沒有審定所以我們在編列他審定的時候稅計剩餘是多少稅計剩餘這個可能多少112年度的"},{"start":3569.722,"end":3576.165,"text":"7,044億元稅計剩餘7,044億元112年是不是112年那請那個陳主席長112年的稅計剩餘有7000多億那不是打破歷年紀錄以前最高就4000多億而已啊"},{"start":3594.727,"end":3621.832,"text":"委員一百一十二年當年度是2790然後他有把歷年的累積剩餘再加上來到一百一十二年度累積剩餘是7044那因為有一些的部分就是轉帳之後到目前為止剩下一百五十八億因為也有編了一百一十四年度的預算包括這一筆一千億如果放算經濟我們到目前為止是剩下一百五十八億以上都會請回座"},{"start":3623.672,"end":3629.257,"text":"部長所以你資料弄錯了因為歷年的稅率剩餘有的已經花掉了以前的內閣裡面也有這個"},{"start":3634.974,"end":3657.246,"text":"轉發因為那個在疫情期間也撥補然後另外又補貼國人一個人年幾千塊那個你都忘掉了嗎?是是我想我們剛剛沒有把這個前面講清楚是那112年稅率剩餘是2700多億當然有一些用在後面的預算有一些之前有一些規劃預算但是再加上這一千億的撥補"},{"start":3659.261,"end":3659.601,"text":"委員長前幾天"},{"start":3686.263,"end":3712.092,"text":"你的報告裡面講到說經濟部的報告裡面講到說跟韓國比起來我們的工業用電就是在調整價格之後我們是4.27元嘛韓國是4.77元嘛還明顯還比他低了0.5元嘛可是前幾天我怎麼看到媒體的報導台積電有高層當然沒有講誰在抱怨說這個電費太高已經失去國際競爭力"},{"start":3713.573,"end":3719.952,"text":"那難道我們比相同經濟條件工業生產國家的工業用地要高嗎?費用要高嗎?"},{"start":3724.752,"end":3743.757,"text":"臺積電所在的廠有好幾個但是沒有韓國所以日本的電力比我們低?他現在在九州投資接下來會拿到確實的電價我們也在跟九州電力做了解因為日本對於不同的工業的用電的價格"},{"start":3745.037,"end":3756.293,"text":"其實他的那個試算表非常複雜,比台灣複雜非常的多,他到底是適用了什麼級距,有怎樣的優惠,我想我們會確定去了解,但是我要跟委員報告,我想說"},{"start":3759.011,"end":3780.191,"text":"一間上市公司基於他們自己對股東權益的立場他們做了一些表達這個我們都可以理解但是整個電價的調整台電事實上還漲是從2022、2023都還漲所以這一段其實是有一個gap在你現在講的是我們補貼民生用電然後因為在這個疫情期間我們"},{"start":3781.092,"end":3783.394,"text":"我跟委員報告這一點是這樣子我們基本上還是會再跟國內的業者做一些比對跟查證"},{"start":3806.212,"end":3826.293,"text":"還是因為台積電有一些他必須要用綠能的用電所以他自己去跟人家短購短購的比較貴那個綠能短購的部分這個就跟不同的案場有很大的差距我想這不太容易比較是所以這件事情要釐清啦因為台積電是一個全國都矚目的公司他一旦這樣講的話你們不馬上出來澄清"},{"start":3827.214,"end":3829.757,"text":"臺電聲量沒有那麼大,所以就要更多元的方法,更大力的來講"},{"start":3848.035,"end":3868.122,"text":"其實我是這樣講是得罪人啦但是一個每年賺上兆以上公司的錢賺上兆以上錢的公司他生產的地方在台電在台灣他適當的在這個生產的成本裡面我相信這個電價在他生產的成本裡面是微不足道"},{"start":3869.212,"end":3870.554,"text":"說明會上的提問他們不是主動講的"},{"start":3884.292,"end":3884.432,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":3902.705,"end":3925.677,"text":"委員報告就是美國的工業電價一向都是全世界非常非常低但是因為美國是能源生產國啊很特別啦我跟你講美國是能源生產國他的頁油鹽、天然氣將來川普當選之後他現在要恢復生產他根本就沒有什麼他的運輸成本跟台灣的能源的運輸成本是沒有辦法比較嘛沒錯我們去變成本是要加上去沒有錯"},{"start":3926.403,"end":3950.782,"text":"是啊 所以我是覺得要這些東西就是要溝通的不要到突然之間丟出一句話說這個太貴了事實上台灣的工業用電調整我們認為要符合你的成本我們不能拿人民的納稅權去補貼這些賺錢的企業如果這個產業是台灣集聚要發展然後他目前是處於比較困頓的階段那我們贊成"},{"start":3951.82,"end":3980.963,"text":"如果這個公司已經大賺錢了,要拿國家的稅金去補貼這樣子的大賺錢的公司,我覺得這個要慎重思考。不知道這樣看觀點你同不同意?報告委員,就是說我們其實您講的同意的,因為我們其實電價在電價審議會審查的時候,其實都有這些橫評考量,這跟委員報告,那目前來看,其實台電最多的累積虧損是積累在2022年跟2023年,已經改善了非常多了。"},{"start":3981.643,"end":3999.278,"text":"議員政治的衝突,我跟你講川普當選對你們是大力多,因為他恢復美國的業遊園跟天然氣的生產之後,我們的國際之間的能源就是這些所謂的石化能源,它的價格大家的預估是它會下降,會降到比現在的這個油價還要再低。"},{"start":3999.938,"end":4027.203,"text":"所以這當然是利多成本的部分會減少但是我是覺得說跟社會的溝通隨時都要注意因為我們這麼大的公司很多事情要忙有的時候會疏於疏忽跟社會的溝通但是這個大家看這個資料看這個媒體會雞飛塵死大家如果都是看到就這樣講沒看到台電怎麼講真的會誤會說你們是不是在賺這些這些工業大的生產公司的電錢"},{"start":4028.629,"end":4039.362,"text":"跟委員報告我們其實當天就有做一些澄清但確實聲量不夠我們會再加強好加油謝謝好接下來我們請耐斯堡委員質詢"},{"start":4057.978,"end":4072.928,"text":"謝謝主席各位先進有請經濟部的連次長以及臺電的曾董事長以及組織總署的陳組織長陳組織長委員好三位長官好我的題目因為我不在問誰因為三個都有關係"},{"start":4084.502,"end":4106.837,"text":"我在經濟委員會那時候曾董事長也在我問了郭部長說啊這個追加預算追加一千億如果沒有給的話會怎麼樣郭部長姿態非常高眼睛看著天花板啊啊就簡單啊我就舉債啊他就舉債兩個字啊舉債"},{"start":4109.366,"end":4120.348,"text":"解決了 嚴孝師也大老闆 請你沒有看在眼裡 舉債 好了 我就回去做功課 舉債喔 三位整個聽好喔"},{"start":4121.636,"end":4129.041,"text":"有錯了請指教喔!長短期的借款1.6兆、1.5多兆對吧?1.5幾、1.6兆左右還有9千億左右的其他借款對吧?"},{"start":4139.987,"end":4143.228,"text":"總負債2.5兆當然利息9000億不用利息是1.6兆的利息每人利息224億我就說過了你們的負債1.6兆利息224億所以你們的利率大概1.多%對不對"},{"start":4167.346,"end":4167.886,"text":"平均利率"},{"start":4194.947,"end":4206.399,"text":"10年期的公債大概1.5左右1.5啊 你們這都不到1.5啊 你們這都不到1.5啊 你們這都不到1.5啊 你們這都不到1.5啊 你們這都不到1.5啊 你們這都不到1.5啊 你們這都不到1.5啊 你們這都不到1.5啊 你們這都不到1.5啊"},{"start":4212.626,"end":4232.899,"text":"沒有增加一千億無傷啊!你就增加一千億就增加多少?增加兩百二十幾億而已啊!增加二十幾億的利息啊!你就有了啊!所以你看哇!這個郭樹暉指太子瀟灑指傲慢啊!對著天花板!你不要看立委!對著天花板說啊!救急啦!很簡單救急!"},{"start":4234.02,"end":4257.028,"text":"我看那個曾部長,其實我都覺得我替你叫局了,曾文生應該當部長的,你當部長比郭樹惠好太多了,太了解多了,對不對?誰想不到,你也不錯啊,你也夠力啊,為什麼沒有當上部長啊?你來就不用這樣說嘛,那天你在場對不對?對嘛,他有講要舉賽對吧?"},{"start":4260.347,"end":4280.058,"text":"我想說委員、報告委員的意思是這樣就是說﹖如果真的沒有得到這一千億大元的通過﹖臺電只能舉債了﹖舉債嘛﹖只能舉債不是﹖舉債因為持有一年持有負擔二十出頭億嘛﹖逼不得已的做法﹖二十出頭億嘛﹖所以甘當共就這句話本來我對臺電"},{"start":4281.659,"end":4298.728,"text":"是無限的,不要說同情啊,臺電這麼大的公司,那是把小立委合得合能,要同情臺電啊,把臺電那窟窿這麼多,我本來都中間品相於,說不定要支持一下,結果郭師傅講這句話,對不起,我的態度很清楚,我反對。"},{"start":4300.089,"end":4312.258,"text":"我反對因為一千億你是只有二十億多一點點你沒負擔得起沒有必要這一千億留給民間為什麼來聽好喔幾位長官看好這個數字喔"},{"start":4314.266,"end":4322.549,"text":"最近11年來這是你們的數字台砲啊!資料來源都是台砲啊!台電的!這從2016年到2023年總共核電幫你們賺了2397億將近2400億"},{"start":4333.294,"end":4359.912,"text":"那你們今年虧了360億在去年2023年還賺了294億因為有核電所以有核電幫你們賺錢老實講今天要跟人家伸手要錢你今天一個孩子跟父親要錢不管父親有沒有錢你一定跟他說我已經軟狼修舍我窮其一地一切我盡我一切努力cost down"},{"start":4360.612,"end":4386.445,"text":"我真的沒有錢了我需要父母給我錢這個我們會考慮當然不是說立法院是父母啦但人民是父母立法院代表人民對不對你們沒有窮其一切啊你們把這個核電11年來賺2400億的把它拿掉了take it for granted到國理所當然的一定不要所以要繼續虧"},{"start":4388.286,"end":4414.128,"text":"所以再加這一點一千億我強烈反對給你們這個增值一千億我剛說過了國務部長講的可以舉債舉債一年利息只不過20出頭億你一年的虧損到360億多虧的20億算什麼而且這個錢來人簡單為什麼把老百姓拿了一千億出來而且恐嚇"},{"start":4416.362,"end":4444.841,"text":"說不給一千億要漲電價會漲電價嗎?請問會不會?董事長會不會?會不會漲電價嗎?電價不是台電公司決定是電價委員會決定那這樣的意思我的解讀就是不管有沒有增資一千億都是電價這個委員會決定他即便給你一千億他要漲還是漲這就對吧對吧請問你"},{"start":4446.497,"end":4448.499,"text":"所以換一句話說也沒有給你增值一千億跟漲變價是沒有關係的"},{"start":4467.36,"end":4494.672,"text":"國務部長胡說八道說給我一千億不可以提到漲電價不是這樣子因為我們為了要穩定民生物價還有那個CPI所以要反映成本是沒錯可是對於民生用電這一塊我再強調一遍你不要跟我講自己的東西我讓大家全國的老百姓聽清楚今天有沒有給你一千億對台電差別在二十億左右"},{"start":4495.988,"end":4505.962,"text":"就這樣子 對不對在21之一左右（而且便叫審議委員會（不會看你有沒有爭執（而且你該漲就漲（不該漲就不漲（就這麼簡單的邏輯（"},{"start":4511.229,"end":4523.423,"text":"那個報告委員喔今年就我知道電價審查的時候也有把政府補貼的因素考慮進去他是考慮整體財務如果我們得到補貼我相信電價委員會也會一定考慮"},{"start":4526.746,"end":4532.348,"text":"他有跟你說補貼一千你就不漲價嗎?有這樣講嗎?沒有啊!一倍恐慌啊!你看你講話就比郭志輝誠懇而且抓到重點。郭志輝你講話就白白啊!"},{"start":4545.732,"end":4545.892,"text":"國務司司長"},{"start":4567.264,"end":4568.765,"text":"謝謝司法委員接著請郭國文委員質詢"},{"start":4608.06,"end":4609.182,"text":"謝謝主席 有請連次長好 連次長"},{"start":4619.08,"end":4643.75,"text":"市長,川普已經預告說1月20日他上任之後就要針對加拿大跟墨西哥課徵25%的這個關稅,你也知道臺商在墨西哥設廠非常多,高達258間,包括廣達、鴻海,還有包括偽創合作等大廠都在那邊。那我問一下,原先我們說要在墨西哥想要成立科學園區的想法還會繼續嗎?"},{"start":4647.363,"end":4658.952,"text":"川普這次當選我們已經跟業界有在做一些討論可是問題25%這是最新的訊息嘛 確定嘛你們已經怎麼樣科學園區會不會繼續設會不會科學園區啦還會不會繼續想要設在墨西哥"},{"start":4669.195,"end":4672.636,"text":"我看你們還沒準備好講,都是很空洞的東西,你多久可以對外說明?"},{"start":4698.084,"end":4715.652,"text":"我們有做評估,我們把這個資料送給會員好不好現在1月20快到了,我再問你一下之前我問了有關於這個電廠的問題,這應該是您月管的嘛10月11、10月29民原專報兩次的回答不一樣"},{"start":4716.909,"end":4737.786,"text":"然後你們也承認得標後再還評的話風險是高的,得標前先還評風險是低的。那風險高的原因是什麼?就是你的廠沒有辦法設立起來嘛。好,那現在出現了,在台南的九威廠,九威這一個電廠,原來要運轉的日期你知道哪一天嗎?哪一個月嗎?你知道嗎?"},{"start":4739.008,"end":4740.81,"text":"還沒你確定還沒有罰?"},{"start":4760.987,"end":4780.04,"text":"沒有法則代表台電不缺錢嘛,不是嗎?沒有沒有沒有,他程序在進行中總共加起來,你應該到12月12月加起來,6月6月加起來,今年初就已經過了耶今年初就到期了,次長"},{"start":4781.855,"end":4795.318,"text":"臺電不是你月管的嗎?臺電不是你月管的嗎?我不清楚你們不缺錢嗎?已經超過十幾個月了到底有沒有罰款?到底有沒有罰款啊?開始罰了沒有?真的喔?"},{"start":4796.854,"end":4815.268,"text":"我們現在是依照合約他得申請展言的部分我們有再跟他商議這一邊商議這一點你明明是2026年6月就應該商轉已經延了十幾個月了臺電都沒有處罰就代表臺電不缺錢嘛一個月要罰多少你們知道嗎?據合約你們一個月要罰多少?"},{"start":4821.384,"end":4849.102,"text":"對,你連這個你又不曉得,你又不缺錢嘛,該罰的你們不罰啊還在這邊要錢這什麼態度嘛對,廠商有需要放水,放這樣子有十幾個月了欸有需要護航到這種程度嗎而且商場前24個月就要施工沒有人達到施工許可,就履約情況終止契約你們有沒有評估過要終止契約啊"},{"start":4850.902,"end":4877.371,"text":"十幾個月都不罰款來這邊要錢該罰不罰其心可異啊這明明你們評估說這一定會造成風險風險已經造成了這正常來講出現這個問題再拉回來講民營電廠拿到之後當然只會想要強度關山啦那過往啊"},{"start":4878.618,"end":4904.851,"text":"都是五個條件先行以前我們蓋了說五個條件為什麼到2026年的時候就改成三個條件就可以就自以為說這樣效率會比較好哪有效率比較好有哪一個電廠蓋成了包括你們舉的中加例子融資都還有問題專業都還有問題甚至你們之前在對外講的是說你們想要多元發展好了我們先來問啊"},{"start":4907.199,"end":4917.79,"text":"在2023年的時候你們當初就想要把新達電廠的部分退變成生殖能發電我問你這動工了沒有這個計畫已經取消了昨天卓魁還在工商團體當中說要多元發展"},{"start":4931.767,"end":4948.963,"text":"綠能要多元發展了結果你們就已經取消了你不笑死人這不代表生殖能不能在其他地方作用對啊可是你為什麼講那麼大聲標題都已經寫了就連動都沒有動我一查都沒動都沒有動整個生殖能發展到現在為止就不到0.1%嘛那我算過以生殖能來說的話"},{"start":4955.049,"end":4978.523,"text":"目前農廢料一天大概有1600萬噸一年大概1600萬噸一座日處理量大概200萬噸的話單單處理生殖能的部分就可以有200多座連一座都沒有臺電的心態經濟部的心態就是看大不看小"},{"start":4980.069,"end":4985.142,"text":"只是想要用大的嘛 不想要以少來累積變多嘛"},{"start":4985.885,"end":4987.246,"text":"總量就是0.08GW目前為止這邊累積起來就有一個量阿"},{"start":5012.975,"end":5019.78,"text":"我最近也處理一個民眾的陳情一個生殖能發電廠要設立就打了7通電話又繞回來原來地方你們有重視我還開了協調會你們才知道這件事情"},{"start":5040.953,"end":5052.679,"text":"我還幫你們推動生殖能場的一個設立欸對謝謝委員因為我們現在在環境部跟我才發現問題這麼嚴重欸哪有什麼多元濾能你們只看大不看小嘛"},{"start":5053.871,"end":5072.164,"text":"多元綠能還有什麼?你們弄一個小水利、鈍鉤集聚跟太陽能的部分為什麼太陽能的鈍鉤集聚最少的部分啊1到10科瓦的部分是5.78為什麼小電力的部分1到500就4.89大細胞同樣是綠能"},{"start":5077.872,"end":5105.949,"text":"市長,你們發展多元綠能而且你們一個單位小水利機組還2萬KW以下太陽能還分10個級距你們真的有心要處理嗎?小底下還有微啊為什麼不處理呢?有有,這個微我們今年剛剛討論前面那個討論完之後在那個上面又加了一個級距然後這個是按照成本去推算出來的按照成本?"},{"start":5106.829,"end":5125.939,"text":"按照成本之外你也要按照那個誘因啊不是嗎?你們要推動這個小綠能嗎?對不對?還有你們跟內政部啊去推動了這個討論這個有關再生能源發展條例的部分啊有關於這個建築物設計太陽能光電發電設施的標準啊開了幾次會議?開了8次會議"},{"start":5131.676,"end":5156.245,"text":"開了八次會議當中目前請向你要300坪以上的新建的改建的建物才需要來這個強制要求啊設置這個屋頂型的光電你知道300坪以上在全台灣的建造有多少嗎才6%才6%那你導致其他新建建物都不用用了對啊那你這樣屋頂型是最沒有爭議的"},{"start":5159.658,"end":5172.948,"text":"委員這塊是強制另外一個獎勵的一些小的那個獎勵的不要跟我講力的啦強制的都放水放成這樣子了你要跟我講力的對啊你們跟內政部在推的時候你們還不願意主政欸你們要推給內政部欸對啊這什麼心態啊到底你們有沒有把這個責任扛起來啊只會來這邊要錢"},{"start":5185.534,"end":5203.442,"text":"臺電剛扛起來,責任要扛起來啦!聯約署剛扛起來,責任要扛起來!經濟部該有的角色要有角色啦!政策目標該執行要執行啦!老是喜歡放水!那十幾個月先罰啦!連次你有沒有答應我?你不是缺錢嗎?違約了就要先罰!"},{"start":5208.684,"end":5208.704,"text":"賴銳龍委員質詢"},{"start":5230.655,"end":5232.479,"text":"先請經濟部次長聯次長跟台電董事長聯次長跟鄭文森董事長"},{"start":5243.108,"end":5268.217,"text":"市長先提一下軟性一點的這一次我們的棒球拿到了12強的冠軍我想全國都很開心其實我也要特別提到臺灣隊長陳潔憲也是臺電人臺電當時也支撐他我們看他履歷有一段時間是在臺電如果當時沒有在臺電也許就不一定能夠延續到他這麼好的一個機會所以我還是要肯定"},{"start":5269.418,"end":5286.375,"text":"臺電其實除了在發電上的供應外其實臺電球隊其實在民間這件事情上其實有所貢獻那當年曾經在2013年曾經為了要省1億的這個經費曾經考慮要解散還好後來沒解散啦如果解散了大概就沒有成績了董事長你的看法呢"},{"start":5288.052,"end":5304.348,"text":"我跟委員報告這個其實這個臺灣隊長真的臺電不敢鞠躬我們只能夠說臺電一直都是提供一個基層的棒球環境的支持那他的成就確實他的努力那我要講的事情是臺電不只只有棒球隊我們有6個球隊"},{"start":5305.989,"end":5326.597,"text":"其實我們球隊的同仁留在臺電的工作表現其實都不錯那其實站在臺電的立場我們是希望說那部長上次去視察臺電他也特別要求我們多招募球員然後這些球員其實未來臺電很多工作他們都能升任我們會持續的來做球員的延續而且特別跟委員報告一件事"},{"start":5333.42,"end":5349.175,"text":"我們也發現說臺電提供的這種位置是不是因為我們基本上是一個固定的工作球員有廚藝的問題那我們退役的問題所以我們有在設想一個新的辦法就是我們覺得說如果來臺電的球員未來他想打職業隊"},{"start":5350.953,"end":5372.643,"text":"我們會鼓勵他去打職業隊那他在台電的職務我們會幫他保留有一天當他退下了職業隊能夠再銜接回來我認為這樣很好啦我也期盼未來特別是這些都是相當優秀的一些那我覺得不管是職棒或民間的他們都有一個很好的銜接管道你才能夠讓更多優秀人才進入到"},{"start":5373.203,"end":5374.904,"text":"臺電在穩定的獲利、穩定的經營狀況下還是會全力來支撐這6個球隊的運作"},{"start":5390.336,"end":5396.481,"text":"臺電持續的面臨到財務上的壓力所以接下來當然要談的其實這一段時間其實最早是在2022年的時候這個二五戰爭以後導致到了整個電價油價的上漲而導致了整個虧損包括臺電綜合的虧損我們又強制的去壓住希望不要"},{"start":5416.758,"end":5442.012,"text":"因為民生上的影響而造成的物價的波動我們希望穩定住通膨所以台灣的通膨其實控制得相當好物價控制得相當好這個也是導致很多國家都幾乎都面臨到通膨的問題甚至執政權都垮掉了甚至人民是抱怨聲很大但是我們穩住了但是我們穩住了這個部分變成臺電跟中油就扛住了這個責任了扛住這個責任之後虧損就很大"},{"start":5442.612,"end":5467.708,"text":"所以我認為其實國家當我們這幾年經濟這麼好的時候我們的稅收也都增加我們領域這麼多的時候其實支持台電支持中央我認為是應該要做的因為台電跟中央等於是幫我們扛住了第一線如果我們遇到了通膨的問題甚至遇到了恐怕遇到的挑戰更大了所以我認為立法院其實應該要支持這樣的預算所以我們看到其實"},{"start":5468.829,"end":5476.061,"text":"整個總的台電吸收的成本總數加起來這幾年大概支撐了6,794億這個數字正確吧 董事長"},{"start":5479.656,"end":5502.782,"text":"報告委員是的因為民生跟那個產業的部分一個是約2800一個約4000這些都等於是幫忙扛住了這不是台電的員工不認真也不是台電不努力就確實是因為吸收了這些本來如果完全是民間的他可能就跟你漲上去了但是因為富有國家的任務富有穩定那我們都知道"},{"start":5504.163,"end":5531.343,"text":"民生水電這種都基本的民生的你一旦動了那物價絕對是動那個絕對波動而他造成的通膨問題絕對更加嚴重所以我認為國家要幫忙扛住這個責任也不要讓這個虧損是成為了台電整個去負擔我認為這對台電也是不公平而且會造成台電未來營運上面更大的一個壓力所以我想我是支持由政府來撥補這件事情你不撥補剩下的面對就是難道是讓"},{"start":5532.444,"end":5555.785,"text":"人民去承擔嘛,你漲起來的話那民生這些物價的波動人民恐怕要繳納更高的那我覺得已經努力的做到了讓一些該負擔的比如說他的企業獲利很好狀況我們給他收起來收起嘛,把他拉出來但是對於基層這一塊的民生我們盡量努力穩住他"},{"start":5556.445,"end":5556.565,"text":"董事長"},{"start":5584.321,"end":5600.809,"text":"報告委員,那個增資的部分沒有辦法拿來處理累虧,因為台電現在最重要的問題是要處理累虧問題。那1500億其實跟委員報告,我們這幾年大概是台電投資電力建設最高峰的時候,包括電網的建設,還有發電設備的建設,這一點是1500億是要支持建設。"},{"start":5605.091,"end":5625.845,"text":"我只是想說,其實我們都在支持這件事情的,就讓臺電體質更加強健,那特別是上次有一次大停電,新打那一次造成全臺的大停電,大家突然發現我們電網的韌性確實還不夠,所以這段時間我們繼續加碼去投資整個電廠的韌性,這也是應該要做的,你如果加碼韌性的話,整天跟你跳電,"},{"start":5626.846,"end":5649.254,"text":"或出現問題整天罵你缺電造成人心惶惶的我認為這個都是我認為台電現在政策方向都是正確加強電網的韌性加強綠電加強各項電力的開發讓我們的電力更穩定加強更多的變電站等等我認為都是正確的那但是要做這些建設需要錢除了增資以外"},{"start":5649.774,"end":5650.154,"text":"﹚立法院第11屆第2會議"},{"start":5669.599,"end":5696.308,"text":"繼續說明那我希望說的立院同仁大家支持台灣是大家的台灣的電力要持續的穩定電不會從天上掉下來你不發電你不穩定整個電力的系統的話那像高雄是持續在努力的高雄的電力有40%中送北送我們還在蓋新的燃氣電廠為什麼因為台灣需要特別是未來的半導體產業鏈包括AI都很需要很多的電力所以我們持續做"},{"start":5697.208,"end":5697.808,"text":"謝謝瑞隆委員接著我們請顏寬恒委員質詢"},{"start":5733.682,"end":5758.94,"text":"主席,各位立席官員大家早,主席,有請主席處、經濟部還有台電好,主席部、經濟部還有台電各位好,我先請教我們經濟部我們的林次長"},{"start":5761.892,"end":5762.773,"text":"台電從2023年到明年總計已經取得5000億的撥補"},{"start":5768.905,"end":5776.428,"text":"但是財務黑洞保不完（越補越大（經濟部也說明年還是會虧損（如果沒有撥補的話（虧損更大（這次的追加預算撥補1000億（還是仍然會虧損566億（明年總預算再撥補1000億（虧損大約會是在444億（這部分我想提醒經濟部（"},{"start":5795.816,"end":5812.655,"text":"還有台電,你們能不能精確地去控管成本?採購的部分,你們的材料是不是便宜?那民間購電的部分,你們的成本有沒有辦法壓低?還有這個虧損的原因到底是什麼?"},{"start":5814.552,"end":5829.116,"text":"能不能提早計算國際原油料成本還有最重要的就是經營模式其實這幾大點都攸關我們國人因為民眾最關心的就是漲價台電漲價今年已經漲了兩次明年電價會不會漲這是一個問號所以你這一邊漲電價起電價然後這一邊拿政府的預算撥補"},{"start":5840.93,"end":5840.95,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":5862.32,"end":5871.626,"text":"還有台電的整個財務我們現在已經答應是在應該是月底這個月的月底我們會把整個財務報告送出來年底會把財務報告送到大院這邊來"},{"start":5879.167,"end":5897.298,"text":"預算是人民的錢,我們現在利用撥補一千億,每年又一千億,這些錢都是我們的納稅錢。那台電漲人民的電價,你漲了電價又要撥補,你乾脆不要漲電價嘛,你就直接撥補就好了嘛,直接把你的虧損由政府的預算來撥補,這樣不是就好了嗎?"},{"start":5900.74,"end":5901,"text":"我請教主席長"},{"start":5926.804,"end":5948.065,"text":"預算中心提到說這次追加一千億撥補台電是因為國際營業成本的上漲還有就是穩定物價照顧民生弱勢等等所以吸收用電成本所需的經費來追加預算那既然政府編了一千億來補助那你能不能現在就告訴我們說明年絕對不會漲價可不可以"},{"start":5949.957,"end":5971.504,"text":"不是,漲價不漲價這個要由那個電價委員會來去做決定啦那這個部分呢因為譬如說他台電他吸收民生物價的部分就有2800億所以這2800億他都沒有漲因為民生物價的部分是民生電費是沒有漲那產業的部分他吸收4000億這兩年的時候他吸收6800多億所以他虧損4000多億那是民生電價的部分是沒"},{"start":5979.227,"end":5979.587,"text":"現在每度店就虧一塊錢"},{"start":5995.319,"end":5995.679,"text":"我可以講齁其實"},{"start":6022.825,"end":6050.421,"text":"臺電要怎麼樣去控管成本這是你們的專業我們要的就是第一個電要夠用電要盡可能的便宜這就是我們民眾要的那另外你漲的部分你現在撥補這一千億明年再一千億你又不能告訴我們說明年不漲價那不能要撥補多少才可以不漲價可不可以告訴我們要撥多少啦萬年預算要撥多少才可以賣出去"},{"start":6052.486,"end":6065.772,"text":"因為這個是電價審議委員會根據當年或是前一年的那個整個燃料還有國際的情勢去做分析評估啊那你能不能預期先告訴我們那我有個心理準備啊"},{"start":6067.93,"end":6090.656,"text":"跟委員報告的是台電董事長我們每次去電價委員會審查的時候政府有沒有補助都會是委員會審查的重要考量包含說這一次今年度的民生都沒有漲也是因為政府有編了這一千億的預算債所以民生今年沒有做調整那我想說這個絕對會是立法院通過這筆預算絕對會是電價審議委員會的重要考量根據"},{"start":6095.297,"end":6116.515,"text":"所以我可以預期說每一年撥補的金額會不斷的上漲為了要不讓電價調漲是不是這樣子其實是這樣子委員我就這樣跟您說你就承諾比如說不然就請我們次長跟董事長你們來承諾說為了要抑制電價上漲拜託中央政府預算每一年撥補到這個讓台電不漲電價"},{"start":6122.201,"end":6140.925,"text":"委員這個可能也沒辦法這樣運作啦因為那個新委員不會同意我們這樣子講啦我真的是要跟您報告因為電價的調整會跟著國際的一些價格有一些波動這個是一定有的那不要讓它劇烈波動這是政府補貼的重要原因啦我想說這一點請委員體諒電價"},{"start":6145.273,"end":6161.388,"text":"明年不能再漲這第一個那你們今年的這個撥補的部分其實到明年底已經超過五千億了還有兩千沒確定那這個部分我跟你講那我要告訴你們就是說"},{"start":6162.794,"end":6185.93,"text":"對於電價的上漲還有政府的撥補這個我們都非常有意見不能接受那另外就是說臺中的部分火力發電廠那中火原來答應民眾了就是建一座拆一座然後呢增燃器減燃煤無煤這個無煤的一個趨勢是世界趨勢只蓋但是現在我們臺中"},{"start":6187.091,"end":6191.053,"text":"我跟委員報告 我知道委員很關心這個事情 我簡單跟委員報告 我們加速蓋燃氣就是要提早污煤"},{"start":6212.122,"end":6218.644,"text":"那個燃煤機組是放在那邊做緊急備用嗎?緊急使用現在會變成常態化嗎?不會啦!絕對不會!我告訴你保證不會!絕對不可能把它常態化因為剛剛是緊急機組他一年就是限制發電時間只有720小時而且台電至今為止"},{"start":6235.689,"end":6235.829,"text":"委員會長委員會長委員會長"},{"start":6257.27,"end":6261.855,"text":"我剛才說台電現在沒有表現成這樣,那天也很多利潤期,利潤期也希望我們快點動作,因為現在開始蓋,我們其實看到這幾年,臺中火力發電廠已經減了600萬噸的燃煤量,我們如果新的基礎起來我們會儘快減,只要調度可行我們一定馬上減。"},{"start":6276.86,"end":6278.161,"text":"謝主席,我想請一下經濟部長賜還有我們台電董事長"},{"start":6306.192,"end":6306.835,"text":"政務委員好"},{"start":6312.902,"end":6341.359,"text":"市長好因為今天我們財政跟經濟的聯席當中主要是針對113年度中央政府總預算追加案追加案當中主要就是針對台電這一千億的部分那我想說因為坦白說剛剛你在回答嚴寬委員的時候你提到說那個有兩千億還沒有撥補所以現在也在爭取那我比較好奇狀態是說如果今天我們追加這一千億的預算沒有過的時候台電怎麼辦"},{"start":6344.175,"end":6349.485,"text":"如果追加預算案一千億沒有過,臺電怎麼辦?次長回答還是臺電回答都可以?"},{"start":6352.772,"end":6372.781,"text":"跟委員報告就是說這2000億基本上如果沒有過在我們的財務預估上面對台電來說我們這2000億我們需要的營業用等等跟投資用的基金我們就必須去舉債所以會擴大台電的舉債餘額也會增加我們的負債比例"},{"start":6374.662,"end":6398.42,"text":"所以基本上來講就是說只是增加負債比例嗎?我們現在的負債比例已經9乘5了其實是蠻高的那我們現在公司的淨值如果讓我們持續累積虧損事實上我們是一個依照公司法上有公開發行雖然沒有上市一個有公開發行的公司如果我們的資產跟負債資產不抵負債那對於"},{"start":6402.023,"end":6405.225,"text":"所以說整個資產淨值當中大概只剩2000多億我看到數字大概是這樣子"},{"start":6420.657,"end":6421.177,"text":"臺電的萬里水利發電計畫目前進行怎麼樣?"},{"start":6446.973,"end":6468.408,"text":"這個部分事實上在環平還有也遇到了那個地方的一些爭議那包括在地的不同的部落不同的部落對於這一個開發的計畫有不同的意見所以還需要溝通建為支柱啦就說因為台電萬里計畫坦白說不是一個很大的計畫可是已經5年了5年了之後還在做地方的一個溝通"},{"start":6469.429,"end":6494.609,"text":"那地方溝通當中的時候我們看到了就是說在萬農村這個部分的時候最主要要建設在這個地方可是這地方不溝通你們去外面找了其他的三個村莊的時候然後變成3比1的狀態的時候就覺得好像可以過可是萬農村沒有買這個單所以你們現在開始進行很多的一個訴訟嘛對不對現在訴訟還在進行不是嗎"},{"start":6496.171,"end":6520.25,"text":"董事長請做說明跟委員報告其實地方溝通常常都會有這樣子的狀況就是它如果有牽涉到幾個不同的部落它就會有不同的意見在那我覺得訴訟這個部分我要講的是其實應該要嚴格來講是對於一些進行過程取得的同意是不是有完整的程序大部分都是這種類型的問題但站在台電的立場"},{"start":6523.653,"end":6524.854,"text":"臺電在整個經營管理當中是有一些"},{"start":6540.8,"end":6544.782,"text":"臺電其實我們有非常多電力開發的計畫其實不是那麼容易也不是臺電說要做就可以做我們很體諒所以說我們覺得說整個大家都需要用電"},{"start":6564.833,"end":6588.569,"text":"所以我們一定希望臺電的體質能夠好經營績效能夠好政策能夠正確現在就是因為有很多的經營績效沒有辦法好的部分最主要是因為他要跟錯誤的政策去買這個單那我再問到一個部分就針對臺電目前閒置的資產有多少?董事長"},{"start":6589.957,"end":6593.26,"text":"臺電目前閒置的資產有多少?目前我們看到整個立法院預算中心提到整個臺電公司114年度預算當中的資產負債表表示我們的"},{"start":6615.299,"end":6616.86,"text":"臺電是大幅改善這些土地閒置讓它活化利用"},{"start":6636.671,"end":6658.709,"text":"當然有一些變電站也可以經過我們的溝通當然有地方政府的支持讓我們可以開始興建那也有電廠的用地可以開始興建就會讓這個閒置減少我們是從127公頃降到1公頃我看到這邊的時候台電公司沒有按照原定用途使用土地面積"},{"start":6661.269,"end":6665.192,"text":"且預原定最後使用期限20年以上的土地面積占比超過15%"},{"start":6686.405,"end":6712.666,"text":"新竹市這邊有一個很重要的便電所我到時候會找台電這邊特別來做一個溝通在園區那邊的便電所的部分居住那旁邊那一個是是是那他到時候要怎麼樣去做一個後續的開發這邊的時候我再請董事長到本辦公室來做一個溝通我最後這個部分我想特別問一個狀態因為最近霸凌的事情太多了台電這邊的時候簡單隨便一找就有大概好幾個案子"},{"start":6713.667,"end":6738.26,"text":"那其中包括一個狀態的時候就是在北區這邊就是台電職場霸凌針對那個一個聖經理這部分董事長知道這個案子嗎2019年的事就5年前的事現在都還持續最近還有一個狀態就是台電女課長拿鐮刀砍"},{"start":6742.13,"end":6769.236,"text":"一個離職一個調職員工的一個桌椅你知道這案子嗎被罰5000塊拿鐮刀砍喔跟委員報告那個那個其實是損害財務啦那個我們會來做相關的調查您提到這個案子我們也會依照程序來辦因為狀況是這樣就我們台電公司有3萬個員工我們最重要就是要讓這樣子的文化不存在我們也希望有一定程度合理的申訴管道那以台電來講"},{"start":6770.276,"end":6782.954,"text":"我們如果遇到真的有這種主管跟員工之間有摩擦等等如果可以合理調整工作單位我們也會來加速進行那至於員工是不是真的受到霸凌我們會交給委員會來辦這也不是董事長的決定"},{"start":6783.968,"end":6784.408,"text":"張綺楷委員"},{"start":6824.599,"end":6830.182,"text":"今天要談這個一千億到底撥補要不要給現在人民第一個感覺就是說過去三年已經補了三千億嘛 對不對而且漲電價最近這三年漲了四次"},{"start":6852.469,"end":6880.609,"text":"人民錢已經被掏了很多出來了更嚴重的 要扛越拋越大扛這是人民第一個感覺第二個我今天要跟兩位探討一個非常重要的現在人民在問啊蔡英文任內漲電價漲了4次幅度漲幅高達35%這還不算賴清德的10月15號可是呢到今年7月份臺電這個洞越補是越大洞"},{"start":6881.752,"end":6907.228,"text":"我那麼多錢,漲了那麼多次臺電在7月虧損還有4348億那你怎麼知道人民相信說給你這1000億可以解決問題呢是不是這次給你1000億錢花更多呢而且你去對比馬英九8年他調了4次漲幅才23%欸最近這幾年會不會漲得太多了另外一個很重要的觀點"},{"start":6909.071,"end":6932.692,"text":"當初在討論說要不要漲電價的時候那時候民眾得到的消息是說如果給你這一千億就是我們今天討論的一千億十月份就不會漲電價啊對不對好啦那你現在十月漲了喔你十月份漲了電價啦漲了12%的工業用電喔我今天要問你你今天來要這一千億你電價是不是要降回去"},{"start":6934.653,"end":6936.454,"text":"規準不是今年"},{"start":6961.892,"end":6962.132,"text":"市長市長"},{"start":6988.473,"end":7013.849,"text":"我從2月份開始總執行問到這次我已經講了5、6次了國際的天然氣跟煤炭都已經降下來了發電成本都是都已經掉下來了第二更重要的現在人民在生氣什麼事情臺電一個金雞模啊國營事業的模範生啊結果現在等一下等一下等一下他有兩個大的問題嘛第一包括賴清德跟卓永泰都講的嘛光電的弊案"},{"start":7014.977,"end":7016.138,"text":"到底被掏空了多少錢?"},{"start":7016.138,"end":7018.2,"text":"到底被掏空了多少錢?"},{"start":7018.2,"end":7020.361,"text":"看一下陳其藝昨天投案了對不對?"},{"start":7020.361,"end":7020.982,"text":"投案了對不對?"},{"start":7020.982,"end":7023.123,"text":"說要進鑑 連帶清德、中泰都是要趕快辦對不對?"},{"start":7023.123,"end":7024.284,"text":"連帶清德、中泰都是要趕快辦對不對?"},{"start":7024.284,"end":7037.935,"text":"光是一個台元力能 你們自己要去做光電啊 光是一個台元力能 你們自己要去做光電啊 到現在很多光電也沒有做出來啊 到現在很多光電也沒有做出來啊 說漁電共生、漁死的電也沒生啊 說漁電共生、漁死的電也沒生啊 多少錢?"},{"start":7037.935,"end":7040.637,"text":"台元被掏空了11億 還面對可能140億的這個球場 這個錢"},{"start":7044.98,"end":7073.496,"text":"你給了一千億,那邊又要出去一百多億,夠補嗎?一樣在台南的麗陽光電,起訴輸工商不法收得,為台電賺多少錢?九十一億,聯合再生,因為你們沒有去訂在張斌工業區設置太陽光電這個標註案,沒有設下限,回饋了這個下限,國庫損失了七十億,"},{"start":7075.086,"end":7099.129,"text":"聯合再生後來去違約去出售又套利了兩億多一來一去你現在跟我們要這1000億好更嚴重的第一個當然去把弊案查清楚就不要這1000億了第二個核能明明是最便宜的一多1.23、1.13你從核一已經停掉了核二停核三的一號機也停了明年五月又要停一年成本喔要增加1000億"},{"start":7100.538,"end":7100.598,"text":"（詢答及處理（"},{"start":7121.092,"end":7147.217,"text":"是不是就排擠了?今天主席在這?主席管這個錢怎麼用?我們有1000億啊應該去多做社會福利啊這幾天大家這麼高興我們的棒球隊拿了世界冠軍回來啊都去做這個推動棒球啊體育活動啊我算給大家聽來你看看這幾天啊 郭國文這幾天郭國文說要估重量那個獎金加碼到1億對不對你這1000億我剛才說的"},{"start":7150.39,"end":7179.4,"text":"不要發生弊案,把弊案發生的錢追回來核電好好用,你這一千億就不用了這一千億可以拿去做什麼?郭國文說他估重量獎金加碼到一千億被罵翻了你不要做到我剛講的這一千億做什麼事情?我們可以發一千次的獎金耶為什麼現在給台電這樣浪費?弊案也不好好去追然後核電能夠用的也不用,要我們人民再掏一千億去補你為什麼不拿來發獎金發一千次?"},{"start":7180.626,"end":7205.604,"text":"第2個大雞蛋的體育館造價多少錢161億這1000億可以蓋6座的大雞蛋的體育館另外政府跟人民不是一直說要有社會住宅嗎這1000億可以興建4萬戶的社會住宅如果不含土地含土地也可以蓋1萬戶的社會住宅現在政府一直在推動少子化"},{"start":7207.797,"end":7236.452,"text":"我們要鼓勵要多生小孩作業指導宅這個服務我們要補助6萬塊對不對你去拿2023年的新生兒這個人數13萬5千個人為基準你全部補助這1000億省下來可以補助12年所以今天在談的不是冷冰冰的1000億第一個你可以從杜傑弊案太陽能光電號去查避免花這麼多錢那個錢很多都留到利誘偉的口袋裡面去啊人民就生氣啊"},{"start":7237.83,"end":7255.284,"text":"第二,你可以用這個核電啊第三個,你這筆錢現在如果給你是不是排擠了我們的社會福利跟體育預算可以給獎金啊可以蓋大雞蛋的這個體育館啊可以興建社會住宅啊可以補助這個作業者到宅服務啊報酬12年啊"},{"start":7258.596,"end":7282.911,"text":"委員我可以再講一下嗎?先講,剛才你說立洋那91月我們一線就沒付。立洋你說91月我們一毛錢都沒付。聯合再生如果他問題沒解決,我們電力執照不發。所以那些事情,你估來那些都沒有發生。再來剛才講的,雖然現在的氣跟煤價格有回跌,但是跟之前在比"},{"start":7283.812,"end":7284.752,"text":"現在檢查官起訴了超過50個案子"},{"start":7311.84,"end":7340.421,"text":"我這幾天我還特別到臺南跟嘉義的那個太陽能光電的那個案場去看啊,看來都沒有事啊現在我們一些農田跟漁園被破壞了,下面有些還弄了什麼爐渣,還有一些廢棄物然後現在更嚴重我剛才說的嘛,就浪費了我們的民脂民膏嘛,結果你現在說的,你虧欠不給他,你擋了一兩個案子嘛可是還是有很多的案子要去把它查清楚,這個是,你現在應該是正本清衍聽我講,你正本清衍人民現在要的什麼,你去解決問題嘛"},{"start":7341.542,"end":7342.702,"text":"中央政府總預算追加預算案。（詢答及處理（"},{"start":7370.948,"end":7375.67,"text":"委員剛才你講的所有事情我們一一跟你說明你剛才講哪一個案子多少億哪一個案子多少億我就跟你說沒付啊你說天氣價格、燃煤價格有下降我真的很誠懇跟你說"},{"start":7396.349,"end":7419.051,"text":"他現在的數字都在對啦,你現在說的就是說你們虧線不給他現在先停下來我跟你講就是說這個就是檢察官很清楚已經算出來說有可能發生這個弊案嘛對不對而且有部分你聽我說不是你現在不給他台電那個虧線他就停下來他有些錢已經搬出去嘛你看陳錦益已經搬了多少錢台元力能要搬了多少錢出去"},{"start":7420.011,"end":7425.952,"text":"臺電跟經濟部跟政府 弊案不處理 能源政策不好好去處理明明以前核能可以用的 全世界都在用 你們不用 一年1000億 你現在又來拿這1000億"},{"start":7446.657,"end":7447.538,"text":"謝謝主席還有趙文森董事長"},{"start":7479.035,"end":7492.989,"text":"113年7月9日 金門全島發生全島大停電 全島包括總共影響了4萬多戶 幾乎沒有一戶倖免 交通耗至整個癱瘓 小山通的碼頭 機場"},{"start":7495.475,"end":7519.849,"text":"的這些海路交通也完全就停擺因為包括民航站包括碼頭那個海港那裡全部都不能動 縣政府所有單位都停包括百姓那這中間還發生了很多民眾向本席陳情反映說因為臨時的跳電很多設備壞掉的確有好多就是冷凍冷藏或是電腦設備突然就當掉"},{"start":7521.069,"end":7533.337,"text":"這個部分我們也有跟台電說這個不預期的這種跳電就是全島大停電這個部分的話民眾受到這個損害如何來跟民眾做相關的這個賠償有什麼想法嗎?"},{"start":7536.479,"end":7565.628,"text":"如果我有問過好像都覺得說你們都覺得說有困難啊什麼的但是的確是很多人有實質受害的你們至少要想一個辦法嘛因為這個不是第一次啦這個7月9號這個不是第一次以前也有過後來你們說你們蓋了9號機10號機說以後金門後來多了兩個機組以後你們說這個穩定還有做了儲能設備嘛你們在這個也做了儲能設備然後也好但是為什麼都沒有發揮作用"},{"start":7566.428,"end":7583.92,"text":"你們這個調查報告有啊,8月7號有一個調查報告我讀了啊,說一些什麼東西齁,痠業的啊,什麼故障啦,跳脫啦,所以這個跳脫那個跳脫這個跳脫,全倒你們那個所有的10個機組全部都沒有發生功能,包括你們的這個儲物能的部分齁"},{"start":7584.821,"end":7605.997,"text":"原來你們說做這個除人的系統做及時救援你看我們後來有兩個新的在古林倉庫那裡你們原來的功能叫做及時救援109年、112年都做好了兩個有四個系統兩個是要做消風填谷有兩個是要做及時救援那這個就是最需要及時救援的時候完全沒有發揮功能啊"},{"start":7608.893,"end":7626.865,"text":"那個委員我跟你說明首先第一個金門發生這個事情臺電說再多都是就解釋不如我們好好檢討要怎麼改變我跟委員報告就這件事情其實有好幾個部分包括就是說我們的有些設備是不是要裝"},{"start":7628.126,"end":7656.889,"text":"然後是不是要整理（這講起來會非常長（我知道都有一個報告我也讀了我的意思是說即時救援也沒有發揮功能啦你們這個要想看看因為也不是第一次全島大停電你們有那麼多機組那麼多設備這個也停那個停全島停會有局部啦沒有全島停好幾次所以我覺得這個是你們要檢討一下然後第二個補償啦或者是說賠償或者補償不管你怎麼用哪個詞這個你幫我想一個辦法因為你在金門太常發生我們沒有辦法接受"},{"start":7657.429,"end":7680.125,"text":"我那個台電的營業規章和一些規範我們會來跟你們的規範很多都是要很多人沒關係你們來規劃跟我講因為的確好多民眾提出這樣的要求當然金額都不是很大但是金額雖然不大但是也是民眾的這個損失啊幾千塊啊幾萬塊啊這也是損失啊你們這樣子對民眾影響太大了因為普遍性的多了好"},{"start":7680.925,"end":7681.785,"text":"臺電在金門做風力還有太陽發電"},{"start":7702.691,"end":7704.952,"text":"政府推動一個計劃．建築物、停車場、公有部門．現政委提供補助．113年7月．達到23300多KW"},{"start":7727.739,"end":7748.986,"text":"但是我們基本這個財政人員共比還是在10%以下這大概跟全國是差不多啦齁10%是不是差不多但是你看一下發電城某在台灣啦齁在台灣用綠能齁比較貴對不對5塊多嘛5塊多是不是阿用那個一般的不然什麼藍莓什麼其他的發電你們發電是3塊多是不是還是4塊"},{"start":7750.768,"end":7774.779,"text":"在台灣3塊多那在台灣用綠能是比較貴的齁對不對這是在台灣平均但是在金門在金門呢用綠能是比較便宜的你看金門用塔山發電廠發電成本是9塊269.26我們在金門用再生能源就是太陽光你們給我們買的是5.4對不對所以你在金門用再生能源還便宜了3塊多對不對如果以你們112年購電量23000多度來講"},{"start":7778.476,"end":7804.809,"text":"一年就幫你們省了八千多如果你們全島全金門都用綠人一年可以為政府省十億欸對不對這個沒錯吧如果全島都用綠人所以事實上第一個本期在這個離島經濟條例裡頭今天我們有提阿那離島經濟條例對於離島地區尤其像我們像金門地區不管你們現在才五塊多嘛你們的成本大概在九塊十塊在金門發電如果就算加碼的補助補到六塊"},{"start":7805.589,"end":7821.459,"text":"﹗"},{"start":7823.501,"end":7842.147,"text":"金門一年用電3.17億度3.17億度要用再生能源如果用光電來算的話就是400MW大概就可以發到4億度左右但是因為它白天有晚上沒有所以我們還大概沒有辦法那麼高我們會加一些儲能剛才你有講了"},{"start":7843.207,"end":7851.194,"text":"我是完全支持,站在台電立場是完全支持金白台做再生能源我們也同意建設成本也會增加"},{"start":7861.423,"end":7866.966,"text":"我請能源署來跟金門縣政府那邊再來談一下我請能源署來跟金門縣政府那邊再來談一下另外一個經濟部長不是說要在菲律賓、電線、電建覽嗎?菲律賓到台灣島是大概300多公里吧?旅送到台灣是300多公里吧?"},{"start":7891.337,"end":7915.712,"text":"那現在在2021��大概2021年的時候（澎湖跟那個臺灣島已經在變成網內（已經拉起來了吧2021年已經拉起來了吧 對不對那金門到臺灣也才200多公里（比呂宋島還近（比菲律賓還近啊（你們也可以考慮幫我們拉一條線啊（也是省啊（你現在發電一年在金門你要虧十幾億啊（一二十億應該要（應該可能不止對吧（"},{"start":7916.132,"end":7916.272,"text":"一國兩制"},{"start":7933.769,"end":7954.567,"text":"因為那天我在也跟經濟委員會融業部講你那個牛節節你跟日本日本的牛換牛節節證就可以又可以賣來臺灣金門的牛就不能賣來臺灣我說臺灣島齁那那個你都會想從菲律賓拉店你怎麼不想從金門這樣跟金門拉呢那我們變成一國嘛是不是往內嘛這可以思考"},{"start":7957.231,"end":7983.258,"text":"本來就一國啦是但是你們現在的做法都我們都變成跟你們不一樣啊你是不是思考一下好我做個總結幾件事情第一個那個跳電喔因為你們大庭造成很多損害這個補償的機制要出來你們去研究看怎麼做第二個在三流園要再加強這個優惠的因為你們會省錢嘛因為台電會省錢嘛第三個你要與其去飛機那你趕快跟金門拉一條線這個你也去做一下思考研究好嗎"},{"start":7984.659,"end":8004.407,"text":"有沒有問題?多久給我勒?我覺得前面第一題跟原案的規章有關我們花了點時間第二題我很快就可以回答了就是只要有空間我們就去做拉電線你研究一點時間沒關係那最好對國家公園部分我們也找國家公園如果不准做綠電的部分我們也找國家公園來開會嘛因為今天很多國家公園嘛好不好大家一起來努力可以嗎?"},{"start":8013.91,"end":8014.21,"text":"主席"},{"start":8043.723,"end":8071.081,"text":"委員好主席長我想我們還是要來討論一下因為其實最近因為我們是資深在立委擔任了17年所以國民黨最會用的就是說哇我們以前是支持財化法為什麼現在是反對我想對於財化法把我們的財務做一個比較適當的調配我相信沒有人會反對"},{"start":8072.162,"end":8089.714,"text":"今天我們反對的是不公平的財化法不公平的財化法也就是中央跟地方所調配的沒有辦法符合全民共同的利益我們反對的是這樣的一個財化法"},{"start":8091.857,"end":8113.994,"text":"主席長因為你從臺南的主計單位一路到我們中央所以你非常清楚臺南在整個我們得到中央的協助是非常非常重要的它變成是我們重大計劃很重要的一環尤其過去重北清南"},{"start":8115.598,"end":8131.451,"text":"所有的預算大概都集中在北部,到了南部就是少之又少。我們要去推動大型的建設,包括交通或是我們生活圈道路,根本上就是難上加難。"},{"start":8132.631,"end":8154.39,"text":"所以我們用了很多當民進黨上任之後（很多的特別預算來做協助（這其實對於各縣市都是及時雨（我們反對的是不公平的財化法（台南土地面積是占了全國縣市的第7名（"},{"start":8155.681,"end":8184.149,"text":"臺南的人口是全國縣市的第6名人口密度是全國縣市的第11名可是我們現在不論是國民黨的財化法版本或是民眾黨的財化法版本我們所得到的是用倒數的都是倒數的都是像中國國民黨的版本漲幅是全國第三低"},{"start":8185.236,"end":8213.666,"text":"第三滴分配金額甚至是低於非六都縣市的彰化縣那民眾黨的版本試算我們漲幅是全國第4滴專攻喔結果我們的土地面積是全國縣市的第7名人口是全國縣市的第6名人口密度是全國縣市的第11名可是我們整個試算版本出來之後"},{"start":8215.988,"end":8235.322,"text":"國民黨的版本全國漲幅第3低民眾黨版本全國漲幅第4低我們怎麼能夠接受這樣的版本我們反對的是這樣的不公平的版本而且你知道臺南未來有多少的重大建設嗎我們有捷運藍線綠線"},{"start":8238.666,"end":8266.858,"text":"而且都已經通過了我們的可行性評估在藍線的部分然後在省道改善的計劃這是一個廊道路網自衛運輸系統發展建設計劃還有我們的整個地震前兆觀測經濟計劃這很重要主計長你知道前陣子才前幾天而已"},{"start":8268.086,"end":8288.665,"text":"我們台南的地震、余震連續好幾次大家嚇死了所以這個地震前兆觀測經濟計畫重不重要很重要因為現在大家都說可能下次的大地震會發生在南部也有可能發生在台南"},{"start":8290.296,"end":8319.323,"text":"所以在地震前兆觀測經濟計劃極度重要還有公路公共運輸永續及交通平權計劃這對於台南來講都是未來極盡重要可是國民黨的才化法民眾的才化法對於台南來講根本就是把台南當孤兒"},{"start":8321.069,"end":8321.089,"text":"他會說﹖"},{"start":8343.615,"end":8367.086,"text":"我自己的家就顧不完自己的家就顧不完我們是為了什麼要做禮物你知道這是很嚴重所以我們很遺憾說現在國民黨到處用一個網路說陳寧菲你當時當書記長的時候你也是支持財化法沒錯我沒有反對過"},{"start":8369.042,"end":8396.827,"text":"我也認為好的財政劃分中央地方做一個好的調配讓中央可以有權去支應所有的串聯性你像現在我們用水計劃有一個叫珍珠串計劃那是在西部整個大串聯我們有一個智慧型AI也是要整個串聯"},{"start":8398.431,"end":8423.404,"text":"這個都要中央啊每個地方如果你都分下去了中央要怎麼做一個全國性的計劃他就沒有武器可以做全國性的計劃那如果你各縣市你的想法又沒有那麼先進沒有跟著時代潮流在走世界潮流在走那卡住了某一個縣市那我們怎麼做全國的串聯"},{"start":8425.839,"end":8454.79,"text":"所以我們不能只有好像擺在地方要怎麼做我們應該是中央的位階拉高全國性的串聯計劃你要給他武器地方有部分給地方大家好好來講為什麼要用這種方式而且是污衊式的抹黑式的這是極盡不公平"},{"start":8456.283,"end":8470.321,"text":"所以主席長你認為現在這個僵局要怎麼解決這個僵局站在你對於整個財政主計你非常專業的角度你認為這個現在要怎麼去解"},{"start":8473.084,"end":8496.576,"text":"因為事實上我本身是從台南來那當初其實我是主張修財化法的時候是因為我連薪水都花不出來那我的舉債額度達到92.36那時候我是主張要修財化但是近年來都已經改善以我們現在來講我們以前有十幾個縣市都是短處那現在都是剩餘"},{"start":8497.216,"end":8497.516,"text":"主席長,你剛剛講到一個重點"},{"start":8522.961,"end":8537.221,"text":"就是說每一個時代背景的不同當時候我們提要修財化法是因為很多縣市都面臨短處根本錢也就是他的薪水都發不出來"},{"start":8538.422,"end":8567.101,"text":"所以當時候的時代背景是這個樣子但是當民進黨上任之後我們利用一般縣市的補助款然後去做調和然後把所有的縣市短處的狀況完全改變現在都有盈餘啊不是短處啊甚至還透過專案補助的部分去協助各縣市去做建設這才是重點啊可是現在"},{"start":8568.359,"end":8589.434,"text":"在野黨不講這一塊,把這一塊全部拿掉,然後就說你們以前都支持,現在反對。所以這是重點。我們當時候支持的時候是因為很多的縣市根本就發不出他們的薪水。公務人員薪水發不出來多嚴重啊。"},{"start":8590.58,"end":8605.399,"text":"可是我們整合完了之後沒有這個問題而且我們當時候也是認為應該把中央跟地方的職責做好一個比較重要的補助型調配責任現在也做了"},{"start":8606.42,"end":8627.74,"text":"所以我也必須說我反對的是現在國民黨跟民眾黨把台南當成孤兒丟到一邊去居然我們的人口數還有土地還有甚至密度都是在前面往前算結果我們今天的增加幅度是往後算"},{"start":8628.681,"end":8652.869,"text":"我反對這樣的一個才化法所以我覺得要把事情講清楚說明白竹記長你剛剛所講的你們應該對所有台灣人民講清楚時代背景的不同而不是讓大家好像說要給大家更多為什麼大家不要不是不是是所有的局勢都改變了謝謝"},{"start":8657.063,"end":8679.736,"text":"謝謝廷輝委員,接著請黃珊珊委員質詢那我們等黃珊珊委員質詢完,我們休息10分鐘謝謝主席,我想請董事長跟次長董事長還有我們次長"},{"start":8681.668,"end":8709.541,"text":"委員長兩位好我想今天針對台電的追加預算還有明年的所謂一千億的公務預算撥補這兩筆錢都是要填補前幾年的虧損是嗎是所以它是過去的錢是所以現在其實昨天那個董事長來拜會的時候我也問過一句非常簡單的話這樣的填補還要多久"},{"start":8710.334,"end":8733.504,"text":"還要多少?這2000億是過去那現在那我關心的是未來簡單第一個狀況是這樣子就是我們今年度的狀況其實虧損就是已經縮小今年如果以2024年單年來算已經縮小今年縮小到多少?"},{"start":8735.683,"end":8758.037,"text":"我們現在估算到年底預計的虧損可能是551到600億之間600億所以比1000億少了所以明年1000億撥補是回補以前所以我們接下去每年還要撥補500億到600億嗎我們現在在做幾個事情第一個當然就是減少支出的部分"},{"start":8760.114,"end":8782.519,"text":"我們因為要支持國內的綠能建設的發展然後讓民間能夠買到綠電所以臺電有提出一些短購我們自己買的短購的再生能源我們希望透過電力交易市場能夠逐步的轉出去給企業講簡單的就是你不是開源就是節流這是算節流那開源的部分呢"},{"start":8784.2,"end":8807.32,"text":"臺電有什麼開源的計畫?臺電如果要開源只剩下少數的非營業不動產的聯合開發以臺電來講過去幾年我們累計下來我過去三年其實臺電大概是法令的限制還是你沒有辦法做還是根本就沒有法規上面就做不到"},{"start":8808.081,"end":8832.968,"text":"我們講資產活化任何公家機關都一樣一樣法規有沒有限制沒有限制的話你能不能夠有資產活化的機會我只關心未來臺灣的政府如果還要繼續每年撥補500到600億我們有多少的時間可以去消化這些虧損否則你是不是又要漲電價我現在只關心的是你500億到600億你要多久之後又要漲電價"},{"start":8834.028,"end":8835.489,"text":"我現在看到的是你們有在努力但是效益很低也很少"},{"start":8849.732,"end":8865.528,"text":"我們非營業的空間其實沒那麼多啦但是也一年大概折線起來算起來一年的營收也有八九十億啦當然包括我們海外的投資等等所以次長我的立場是很簡單第一這填補以前的"},{"start":8865.888,"end":8889.386,"text":"但是我們要關心的是你未來的計畫未來有多少可能可以去填補昨天董事長跟我說現在工業用電的幾乎大概價差已經很低了跟成本差不多大概目前台電虧損的來源都主要是因為民生用電的差額那這個差額看起來你不漲電價就只能開源對我來說我想知道"},{"start":8890.266,"end":8904.159,"text":"有多少開源的計劃,你要多久補漲電價?你這樣的兩千億撥不進去,你可以撐多久?讓台灣的人民安心的至少在民生用電上面不調漲,一年還是兩年還是三年?"},{"start":8906.142,"end":8926.962,"text":"我原狀況是這個樣子,就是說條不條長我真的不能夠台電董事長講這是第一個,第二個剛才您提到的就是我們其實現在在縮短它中間的差額那這個差額的縮短其實另外一個部分就是我們當然講說我們希望能夠透過我們的那個再生能源能夠轉出去以後降低我們的"},{"start":8928.163,"end":8930.064,"text":"臺電現在的狀況,我們一年要創造額外的500億來補貼民生,這個真的是有一定程度的困難。"},{"start":8948.851,"end":8973.261,"text":"貴來幾年還要面對每一年臺電希望來爭取撥補﹖補貼你們的虧損﹖有可能繼續發生﹖如果在不漲電價的狀況下﹖是嗎我覺得這一個﹖所以這兩千億不會是結束﹖這兩千億只是開始報告委員我其實現在沒有辦法非常肯定跟您說這一件事因為現在的國際燃料價格還是在戰前的大概1.6%﹖1.7%"},{"start":8976.502,"end":8989.427,"text":"董事長我們討論了半天其實就在於回到這個我們現在目前台電的發電量跟購電量是2400億度但是火力發電目前佔了佔比是高達81.9"},{"start":8992.348,"end":8992.528,"text":"火力發電．"},{"start":9008.358,"end":9036.458,"text":"發電量怎麼降低從哪邊補上看起來我們一直在問的是這個問題如果要影響不要影響那麼大你的火力發電量現在可能勢必要往下降你才有機會講到你剛剛講的填補這個虧損否則只要他們一打仗只要他們一發生是狀況現在每公噸是135塊美金那疫情爆發之前大概只有80塊所以接下去會不會漲不知道所以我的意思是很簡單"},{"start":9037.719,"end":9058.307,"text":"立法院要知道兩千億是不是結束不是兩千億還會繼續增加更多的撥補還是你可以多久之內做到有可能至少告訴大家說在電價調漲跟撥補之間找到的平衡點我們需要多少時間其實我需要知道的是未來"},{"start":9059.147,"end":9077.28,"text":"董事長,我講得很清楚。我們知道你的未來,我才能知道今年這兩千億給了你,將來是不是個無底洞?還是永遠都要用這樣的方式?所以你們大概可以給我們一個具體的說明跟對於這些的承諾,不管是承諾好了,至少你有一些具體的做法,是吧?"},{"start":9080.285,"end":9081.005,"text":"對,第一個就是"},{"start":9099.294,"end":9111.002,"text":"總統我需要的是如果你要再爭取這筆預算到明年的公共預算都要把這些東西很清楚的向立法院說明最後一個小問題就是上次講的我們光"},{"start":9112.463,"end":9140.424,"text":"運美過來的製船費一年20億你們今天跟我說今年會改善因為我們的倉庫弄好了所以但是還要到4億我想問你接下去明年呢後年呢你可以做到比4億更少還是還是要到4億一年4億還是很多錢跟委員報告那個船期會有一些參差如果提早卸會有快一些的收入晚的話就會有製船費我們明年一定打平"},{"start":9141.266,"end":9141.786,"text":"李坤臣委員質詢"},{"start":9178.2,"end":9178.56,"text":"臺電董事長、財政部長"},{"start":9200.578,"end":9200.698,"text":"財政及經濟委員會議"},{"start":9218.198,"end":9231.154,"text":"不過我認為我剛剛聽了很多的這個在野黨委員的意見大概他們對於這一千億有很大的意見有很大的意見我是認為這個董事長你今天應該要找這個陳潔篇過來你要拜託他過來"},{"start":9236.043,"end":9261.403,"text":"現在他是台灣英雄欸我們台灣隊的隊長欸那過去他也在這個臺電的這個棒球隊也打過球打過4年那所以你今天這個為了讓預算能夠順利的追加預算能夠順利通過真的你應該要找這個拜託一下我們陳潔憲這個台灣隊長來這邊跟所有的這個委員尤其是在野黨的委員請託一下"},{"start":9263.525,"end":9290.694,"text":"讓他是不是能夠讓這個一千億的這個追加預算能夠通過啦因為齁這個過去他對台電你們也是很照顧他嘛對不對那我剛才也聽到了說這個未來台電在關於這個棒球隊的這一個球員的照顧上面也會給予這一個如果打職棒之後會來這個回到如果要回到台電還是有這個工作機會嘛是不是"},{"start":9291.634,"end":9317.045,"text":"我們現在正在朝這方向規劃我們會把我們的規章改變以後報部裡面同意我想這應該是一個坦白講就是還好這位台灣隊長沒有繼續留在台電有去打職棒才有這個冠軍他當初也是在猶豫啦因為他認為說職棒這一個變化也很大那可是那時候他也他參加職棒之後他也回不去台電了啦"},{"start":9318.707,"end":9319.007,"text":"我問一下莊部長"},{"start":9339.514,"end":9352.177,"text":"我們這個公股銀行是不是也有很多的銀行我知道就是有核庫、土銀、義銀他們也有這個對於這個不管是羽球、桌球或是其他的運動也都有支持對不對"},{"start":9353.126,"end":9368.947,"text":"是,也會對一些球隊們或運動員們給予一些贊助跟培育。對啊,我記得我們很多奧運的選手,這個不管是這個林昀儒或是這個戴智穎,他們過去也是代表這個忘了是土銀還是核庫。"},{"start":9369.468,"end":9373.25,"text":"這部分你給我一份資料好了就是我們這個有關這個公股銀行這個現在有哪些球隊那這個這兩年編了哪些預算來照顧我們的球員"},{"start":9393.198,"end":9414.908,"text":"求員退役後是否還能夠回到銀行這份資料這兩年的資料給我一個報告好不好好沒問題謝謝那部長先請回好了真的我還是建議朝野協商的時候真的要拜託陳潔憲過來一下不然這一條預算我真的是很難過關"},{"start":9417.398,"end":9439.175,"text":"請教一下董事長現在台電負債是多少負債是2.5兆左右按照立法院預算中心是2.6兆到明年是2.6兆那我問一下每年要支付的利息有多少300億"},{"start":9442.417,"end":9444.777,"text":"每年支付利息多少?每一度的發電成本裡面,你的利息支出大概是佔多少?"},{"start":9464.264,"end":9485.993,"text":"零點是蠻低的啦因為你處理2500億度嘛我看了一份資料我不知道對不對啦他說你們這個每一度的發電成本裡面大概50%就是你們自己發電的電力的成本大概有15%是去購買外部電力的成本但是利息也佔了13%"},{"start":9488.284,"end":9500.787,"text":"律師沒有13%沒關係那你就是給我一份資料每一度的這個發電的成本每一度的發電成本委員報告應該是這樣子因為300億我有2500億度應該是大概1.2%左右多少應該因為我2500億度那大概一度電佔0.012元"},{"start":9518.175,"end":9528.257,"text":"所以佔的比例是多少?每度成本是佔多少?我這邊的資料,到113年9月的時候,每度成本是3.63,利息支出是0.12,佔的比例大概是3.4%左右"},{"start":9540.02,"end":9563.081,"text":"一年一二四每度電的成本對每度都是講每度電的成本那我就問你了每度的成本齁這個是3.63那我們現在這個每度的這個民生電價成本是多少3.73.7多3.7多那這個那現在下一度是多少勒現在是我們均價是2.7多2.7多"},{"start":9564.844,"end":9579.759,"text":"對阿,那所以其實只要是民生用電就是差一塊嘛每一度電就是,你就等於是你就是要吸收一塊錢就對了嘛是目前是這樣對阿,那所以為什麼要今天要追加一千億明年還要再編一千億"},{"start":9580.68,"end":9599.193,"text":"其實最主要是我們過去今年在內其實2022跟2023臺電在民生這個部分吸收的成本就是各1000億就是我們有吸收嘛因為你每一度發電的成本跟每一度這個民生電價的成本就是差一塊錢嘛是對啊那為了就要穩定物價然後讓這個民生覺得說這個我們的電價不會太貴"},{"start":9605.618,"end":9606.199,"text":"我再請教一下齁這個"},{"start":9631.638,"end":9643.292,"text":"昨天院長他跟工商協進會有一個早餐會他提到說新核能是持開放態度那董事長知道這句話的含義是什麼嗎"},{"start":9645.367,"end":9646.347,"text":"我聚焦在合適好了啦合適這個我也問過這個院長"},{"start":9675.197,"end":9702.73,"text":"就是2025年非核家園這個是定在這個法律裡面的那這個核四現在公投也沒有通過重啟使用的公投也沒有通過那所以說現在核四這個核去核從因為也有很多在地的居民希望就是說他本來是核電廠的用地那是不是能夠變更他的這個地目使用還地於民那但是現在"},{"start":9703.717,"end":9716.834,"text":"我發現說牌店的態度好像還不是很確定未來合適這塊地要怎麼去做使用那個跟委員報告就是說你現在看到這已經都是繼承已經有利用的這些電力設備"},{"start":9718.269,"end":9742.501,"text":"我們希望因為一個核電廠裡面不會只有核子反應爐以外的有很多都是電力設備那我們希望電力設備能夠有應用的機會能夠有應用的機會所以電力設備還能做其他的發電設備使用嗎它有些可以做穩定電壓等等的相關的工作像發電機它可以做這些相關的工作沒有問題那就是說是屬於核能發電設備這部分勒"},{"start":9748.103,"end":9750.864,"text":"所以未來沒有核四了,也不會用核能發電了,就是在這個共寮這個核四廠上面,不會用核能發電了,對不對?"},{"start":9775.267,"end":9784.974,"text":"現在的狀況就是我們現在法令上面也沒有這個空間所以我是說你們要提出一個計畫就是說這個核電廠的設備在那邊"},{"start":9791.439,"end":9809.434,"text":" 你要去做什麼樣的 有哪一些你可以去做使用 你說什麼穩定電壓或是做什麼樣的使用 那有一些已經沒有使用的 那你要去做拆除或是做其他怎麼樣 因為這個都還是列在你們的這個資產裡面啊 每年裡面有多邊境費 在做這個資產的維護啊"},{"start":9812.1,"end":9837.01,"text":"所以說你們應該要提出一個計劃沒有用的看要怎麼去拆除設備看是怎麼去用部長是說什麼設備的使用效益要極大化這個是一個比較大的範圍跟一個說法其實你們應該要有比較更具體的計劃未來這個不做核能發電使用這塊地要怎麼去做處理"},{"start":9840.083,"end":9863.259,"text":"我們一直都在做這種新的轉型計畫的規劃,我們會持續來辦這個我是新北市的立委,我們自己都很關心,雖然那個不是我的選區但是大家都很關心,那如果沒有使用的話,其實你們就應該還地於民啦或是說你們要做其他設備使用也可以,但是你要跟當地的居民溝通清楚啦"},{"start":9866.792,"end":9871.642,"text":"好謝謝坤城委員那主席在這裡宣告我們休息10分鐘"},{"start":10485.403,"end":10490.606,"text":"好,我們繼續開會我們現在請賴會員召委來諮詢"},{"start":10509.235,"end":10510.717,"text":"財政部部長、台電董事長、經濟部連次長"},{"start":10525.799,"end":10548.714,"text":"委員好,是部長,財政部部長,我們的部長,莊部長。部長,我想在這裡跟你探討一下,很難得今天我們是來審查追加的預算。回顧這幾年來,過去的20年,中央追加預算其實次數只有兩次,一次是在2008,一次是在2011。"},{"start":10553.258,"end":10567.854,"text":"二〇零八我們進最佳兩百五十八點六億最主要就是說我們加強地方的建設的擴大了一個內需的方案那還有就是這個物價穩定的方案這個我們"},{"start":10568.795,"end":10596.361,"text":"也追加了115.5億那在2011年我們追加了186億當然這個186億我們用在軍公教人員待遇的一個調整這個是108億還有擴大照顧低收入婦弱勢的家庭還有那個高職生跟5歲的幼兒免費的一個學費那這個00中總其實我們來看今天"},{"start":10597.401,"end":10605.246,"text":"就是今年中央政府的總預算的編列的情形我們從稅入的2725億里頭還有稅出29519這裡面這個合計我們看起來就是說在收入總計這個是3000億那支出也是30669億"},{"start":10625.059,"end":10625.179,"text":"部長請回"},{"start":10653.466,"end":10680.651,"text":"那個稅基剩餘他在112年度的時候他用112年度當年度他稅基剩餘有2796那稅入稅出的稅基剩餘但是他還在就是說有一些借款就不用借所以有累積進去到112年底是有7044那7044億我們用到那個億後的部分還有一些113年度預算114年度預算所用了到114年度底"},{"start":10682.771,"end":10692.879,"text":"剩下158億剩下158億嗎?對,158這個數字是對的那是不是就是說,竹記長如果我們從去年2023年總結算的收支那個剩餘是1531億那就是說我們粗略的估計今年的總結算的收支那個剩餘的話大概會是多少?"},{"start":10714.016,"end":10722.94,"text":"114年度我們經常收支是2000多億目前是如果有把這個追加預算放進去經常收支的剩餘是那總決算的剩餘大概會是多少113年度嗎"},{"start":10729.844,"end":10757.537,"text":"113年度目前還沒有結束但是目前初估要看一下財政部這邊稅率超縮的一個情況這個部分如果超縮的情況是3000億以上大概就是有一些的會變成剩餘是這樣好謝謝主計長就是我在就是今年那個我們今天追加這個台電的這個預算的這個經費我要請教一下次長"},{"start":10759.054,"end":10778.953,"text":"市長,我們現在都在看我們的台灣英雄在下一頁,這個跟市長特別探討就是說我們知道就是前兩年受到那個無二戰爭跟疫情的影響那台電在2022年跟2023年的一個發電的成本大幅的成交"},{"start":10779.894,"end":10798.051,"text":"這大幅的增加這3年來吸收成本超過6400億其中就是穩定物價還有照顧民生還有照顧弱勢民眾的這個部分其實台電就吸收了2800億那2023年我們曾用就是預後的特別預算補貼台電500億"},{"start":10800.373,"end":10818.262,"text":"可是這個看起來也是只有杯水車薪那如果我們再加上就是電價匯率的一個審議委員會裡頭持續的動漲民生這個電價的話那我們在今年午夜行政院提出了這一千億的追加預算案我們希望臺電繼續維持這個營運實際上就是補貼這三年來"},{"start":10823.644,"end":10846.593,"text":"前名就是民生用電的電價的一個動漲的經費市長你認為這樣子的說法跟你事實上碰到的情況是不是一樣的是的,報告委員我們這幾年2223跟預計的24年讓我們的估算就是光是住宅還有小型的電價的吸收"},{"start":10847.293,"end":10849.834,"text":"就是22年吸收1100億、23年也是1000億、24年我們預估是800億但最近會稍微下降一點點那就超過2000億、超過2500億以上光是名聲那我們要預估就2800億"},{"start":10865.783,"end":10883.98,"text":"臺電經營的一個考驗,事實上就是全球地緣政治的一個風險,其實它沒有降低。沒錯,國際的燃料價格事實上並沒有回到疫情前幾年的平均。剛才委員展示的這幾個數字其實清楚看到,"},{"start":10884.58,"end":10913.928,"text":"就是天然氣的價格事實上在2020年20212011年把2019年拿進來平均大概就是9塊多可是過去幾年都超過15塊甚至有到20塊那到目前為止大概是14塊多所以事實上對台電來講燃料價格並沒有回到原來的水準是依然大概增加了6到7成左右"},{"start":10915.099,"end":10918.941,"text":"2023是最高的一年一開始年初的時候到20塊那現在呢現在14塊14.3左右"},{"start":10937.13,"end":10951.493,"text":"委員長,如果國際的原油跟南美的價格其實這也是持續,持續就是說看起來是顯然還是高,就是沒有2022那麼高可是它在現有的狀況裡頭還是維持一個很高的狀況"},{"start":10955.894,"end":10955.994,"text":"與委員報告"},{"start":10972.316,"end":10997.897,"text":"可是能源的價格在國際上它那個平均價格其實上到一個程度一直都沒有回到原來的水準所以董事長我們如果去看到台電的一個經營的一個難題除了你就是說一定要提供百姓的用電的安全跟穩定以外是不是要這個最優先就是說所有在民生工業商業的一個電價我們應該要調整嗎"},{"start":11002.059,"end":11010.79,"text":"我應該這樣講,這個部分其實讓電價委員會去考慮,因為民生的電價對CPI的影響相對來講比較大,對消費者物價指數的影響比較大。其實台電也不能夠針對這個部分要看電價委員會的綜合考量。"},{"start":11019.741,"end":11040.802,"text":"民生的電價事實上確實長期以來都跟成本有一定的差距是所以我想說其實基本上台電公司的基本利潤其實很難去換算這個一千億我想這個補波對我們來講非常非常的重要那當然在這裡本席也是支持這個一千億"},{"start":11041.903,"end":11042.143,"text":"（詢答及處理（"},{"start":11090.423,"end":11091.724,"text":"王紅薇委員主席、台電董事長"},{"start":11116.618,"end":11138.416,"text":"委員好,處理長我們這個追加預算其實你們的程序之前是有一些問題的因為我們到7月份審計部才會審定稅計剩餘但是你們在5月就提出追加預算所以你們搞了一個巧門所以就是先用取債的方式"},{"start":11138.996,"end":11152.037,"text":"然後等到7月份合定稅計剩餘,你們才用稅計剩餘請問一下,那麼我們現在這個追加一千億到底有多少是用取債,多少是一用稅計剩餘?"},{"start":11153.666,"end":11169.238,"text":"因為當初送到院裡頭裡面來的時候我們這個部分是用舉債的那到時候如果我們有稅計剩餘我們就不用舉債也可以直接這樣執行對啊那最後到底是舉債多少稅計剩餘支應多少"},{"start":11171.62,"end":11188.673,"text":"目前這個部分一千億的稅基剩餘是有保留保留要作為追加之用那如果說將來這個案子在執行的時候雖然是有列舉債但是因為有稅基剩餘對啊多少嗎多少啊我一直在問我們有保留一千億"},{"start":11190.069,"end":11213.602,"text":"所以就是說如果這個追加一千億如果是通過的話那麼全數都是一用稅計剩餘那之前那個舉債的部分呢就不舉債了是不是所以呢你們是先設建再劃法嘛就是反正我已經先要追加了那至於我設計剩餘有沒有核定"},{"start":11214.202,"end":11240.061,"text":"然後合定多少都在不確定的狀況之下就先行追加在程序上變成我說先設計很在話吧那你通常就說你要利用稅計剩餘應該稅計剩餘應該先合定合定多少我用稅計剩餘再追加多少但是現在呢我不管我就是先追加一千億然後再去利用這個稅計剩餘我想這個程序我必須講這個程序事實上是不正常的程序啊"},{"start":11241.162,"end":11241.202,"text":"接下來﹖"},{"start":11260.845,"end":11280.152,"text":"在你們的報告裡面,包含臺電報告,包含主技術報告過去都是這樣子一開頭就說這是因為啊,惡霧戰爭啊這個國際的能源價格的這個標高但是事實上我們可以看到我們可以看到這個國際石油價格的趨勢圖在2022年當時惡霧戰爭開打的時候確實當時的能源價格標高"},{"start":11290.416,"end":11304.939,"text":"但是事實上在2022年底就開始整個的價格已經往下盪到現在為止事實上也早就回到俄烏戰爭之前的價格"},{"start":11306.059,"end":11320.42,"text":"所以你們一直在講我已經講過很多次了你們每次都用惡物戰爭來做你們的幌子其實我們現在台電一個嚴重的虧損是來自於我們發電成本的提高嘛"},{"start":11321.501,"end":11348.39,"text":"這個發言成本提高並不是來自於能源價格,現在能源價格你可以看到早就回到那個二五戰爭之前反而我們每一次在說我們的成本提高或者是我們的電價調整來我們看下一個圖這個過去在那個總諮詢的時候我也提過我們每一次在提高價格的時候提高電價的時候都來自於我們核電廠的廚藝"},{"start":11350.211,"end":11360.207,"text":"你可以看到嘛（從2022年2021��2021年7月（華二廠一號機退役（然後開始（國內的電價（就一直往上升了（"},{"start":11361.468,"end":11372.491,"text":"所以你們今天一直在用所謂的國際能源價格提高這是一種擋箭牌這是一個煙霧彈其實就是因為我們讓核電廠除役而造成的所以這也就為什麼我們一直沒有辦法到現在沒有辦法說服我們要繼續讓你們追加然後明年還要用公務預算繼續的去彌補今年事實上我們好幾次都已經告訴你們了"},{"start":11390.836,"end":11400.282,"text":"這幾年我們包含之前的增資﹖去年增資﹖去年的撥補一直到今年的增資﹖今年增資也完成了現在是要追加嘛"},{"start":11402.022,"end":11425.543,"text":"按照你們現在的一個估計起碼5000億到明年到明年這個公募預算要5000億那麼你們經濟部長也說不會再那個什麼就是還是會虧損在這樣狀況之下臺電會變成一個無底洞所以這就是我們沒有辦法再繼續如果你的"},{"start":11426.912,"end":11455.845,"text":"人員政策不做調整因為現在河山廠只剩下最後一個機組了嘛最後一個機組你還要繼續的除役那我們真的沒有辦法去同意你這個包含今年的追加跟明天的撥補預算那請問一下那個董事長我們河山廠現在一號機開始除役請問一下我們的河燃料棒已經開始把它運回去了嗎?運出去了嗎?"},{"start":11457.332,"end":11458.614,"text":"對 沒錯 我說還沒有用過的"},{"start":11474.015,"end":11500.516,"text":"還沒用過的沒有運回去啊也都還沒有運回去因為他本來這樣講我們本來就是依照每次沖田要多少我們就會買多少好所以你們在荷蘭肉棒的部分現在並沒有運出去我們沒有新的就這樣講我們最後一次最後一次填充燃料就把它給用完了剛剛好因為每次都計算他要用到要填充多少燃料都計算好每一次大修"},{"start":11501.337,"end":11514.235,"text":"都會把它計算好放進去你們到現在也沒有再新增加那個購買?就是沒有沒用過的燃料棒你們那個二號機組還沒除役啊?啊那個是二號機現在在反應爐裡面"},{"start":11518.518,"end":11528.024,"text":"另外一個議題我今天早上陪張淑娟小姐召開記者會昨天周玉蔻小姐因為她做不實的評論跟新聞說"},{"start":11532.587,"end":11547.935,"text":"張淑娟小姐涉及當年的所謂的長單事件所以呢周玉蔻小姐已經被判刑一年六個月按照這樣的話她應該要去坐牢但是我們過去台電的這個宣傳的費用"},{"start":11550.476,"end":11563.335,"text":"如果看台電宣傳費用過去幾乎每年都會包給放言科技廣告的委刊工作幾乎每一年而且都用限制性招標"},{"start":11564.929,"end":11592.374,"text":"那麼其實被外界質疑說這是不是特定供養在特定的媒體所以我想請問一下因為台電還有明年的預算嘛而且你們的宣傳預算很多啊欸我不看不知道四千多萬欸台電的宣傳預算四千多萬所以我想請教董事長有關於周玉蔻小姐現在已經被判刑一年六個月她過去她也被人家"},{"start":11593.584,"end":11619.662,"text":"那個告了很多過去大概都是民事讓他賠償但是這次張淑娟小姐他非常憤怒他告他刑事所以現在已經被判刑請問一下台電未來你們還會去把你們的這些宣傳費去給特定媒體給一個已經被法院判刑的判刑事要坐牢的一個媒體嗎"},{"start":11622.481,"end":11633.67,"text":"請回答跟委員報告就是說他基本上這一些合約都是有透過一個採購程序去進行的都限制性招標壓我覺得採購我們只能夠依照採購的過程去做相關的評選我要跟委員報告就是說現在發生的任何狀況都會是評選的一個參考的標準這個事情大概就是如此你提的問題我們的採購對象是一個法人"},{"start":11650.143,"end":11654.746,"text":"也不是自然人,我想說這個要跟委員退回答案。你們對於放言這是一個透過所謂的公平2018年2019年2020年2021年中間連續4年你們的標案都叫做放言科技廣告委刊工作"},{"start":11674.419,"end":11686.208,"text":"標案叫做鳳岩科技廣告委刊工作連續4年每年都在50萬上下從2018年47萬2019年49萬2020年50萬到2021年54萬你看金額都差不多他固定要在這邊跟你領薪水啊這叫做是一個公平的標案"},{"start":11699.195,"end":11722.859,"text":"然後到2023年還有所謂的電力科普知識網路推廣一樣啊 49萬啊你每一年都要固定給他50萬欸請問哪一家哪一家媒體會透過你的一個所謂公開的標案每一年都可以跟你台電領50萬你告訴我除了他之外還有誰你告訴我"},{"start":11724.755,"end":11751.468,"text":"委員如果需要我們就是所有媒體採購的資料我需要我需要你們這幾年所有媒體採購你們4000多萬怎麼標出去的標給了誰成果是什麼樣我講了這個放鹽嘛每一年耶連續4年然後中間變成那個而且都是放鹽科技我剛講標案就叫放鹽科技的這個委託案"},{"start":11752.688,"end":11776.783,"text":"到底哪一個媒體有這麼樣神通廣大,你可不可以告訴我?我就要來看看你們其他的媒體是怎麼樣的,你們標案是什麼樣的形式?因為這些資料基本上審計也會看,大家都會看,就是...是!對啦,是你們台電標完審計也看,一起包閉嘛!這個在媒體根本就是公開的秘密了嘛!台電納稅人是要供養特定媒體嗎?"},{"start":11780.425,"end":11780.885,"text":"現在請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":11831.918,"end":11833.459,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請主席長還有經濟部次長"},{"start":11839.448,"end":11847.95,"text":"主席長這次追加預算主要的理由是說要依預算法第79條第3款所辦事業因重大事故經費超過法定預算時"},{"start":11871.571,"end":11889.122,"text":"這個理由是什麼?所辦事業因重大事故條文是依據這個吧?按照這個主計總署的報告是依這個什麼樣的事業因重大事故"},{"start":11890.37,"end":11918.666,"text":"因為這個部分它主要是涉及民生用電那這個部分影響民生是一個很重大的一個事件那所以本身它因為到2011年111到113年這當中光是民生用電就已經虧損了2800億左右然後包括那個產業的用電也將近4000億所以累積將近6800億的這個部分所以必須要做一個整個"},{"start":11919.286,"end":11942.457,"text":"整個一個撥補讓它能夠一個營運能夠持續好那個財政經濟部次長怎麼樣那個到底是預算法因為這個引用的是預算法第79條的第三款所辦事業因重大事故經費超過法定預算時"},{"start":11944.554,"end":11948.356,"text":"因為確實現在陳祖剛才主委長講因為現在累計虧損已經有6800億虧損是另外一件事情這裡面條文沒有一句話說因為累計虧損就可以沒有阿"},{"start":11963.086,"end":11963.967,"text":"2022只有條產業而且只有局部條"},{"start":11992.045,"end":11996.467,"text":"對,有調漲,電價有調漲吧?2023有沒有調漲?也調11%是幾月那個審議會調漲的?2023是4月2022的10月有沒有調漲?沒有2022那二午戰爭什麼時候發生的?2022年初對啊,那為什麼?"},{"start":12023.939,"end":12024.219,"text":"2023 尤其是2024今年"},{"start":12039.117,"end":12064.301,"text":"跟委員報告我們的電價的基礎是2021��021．不是．022．我們是跟2021��021比．021的時候天然氣價格．中有的牌價大概．8塊左右．但是2020是11塊．所以我們都對外報告都說平均價格大概是9塊多．所以我們一直不斷的說明．所以它並沒有降到疫情跟戰爭前的價格．並沒有"},{"start":12065.316,"end":12084.572,"text":"好你把資料因為我們還要審你的2025年的114年度的預算案也是1000億也是編了1000億所以你把這個燃料價格的分析從2025戰爭到現在這個燃料的一個這個部分到底是怎麼樣然後從2025戰爭之後"},{"start":12094.113,"end":12118.929,"text":"每一次的因為電視上審議委員會兩次嘛對不對每一次的時候的一個有調漲跟那一次的會議是調漲什麼或是說沒有調漲我記得是沒有有一次沒有調漲嘛所以這個部分這個因為事實上叫那個組計長還有"},{"start":12124.221,"end":12151.081,"text":"市長都是事務官出身跟我一樣事務官出身我們在整個這個事務官還是要給政務官做決策的時候要有相當的這一個資訊提供尤其是本來向經濟部的部長現在的部長"},{"start":12152.658,"end":12178.169,"text":"包括國發會的主委本來一開始對核四有一個期待不只是期待我們以為都要啟動了但是現在又退收了所以這個資訊要提供尤其是作為一個常務次長作為一個主計長我們要提供什麼呢"},{"start":12179.369,"end":12191.18,"text":"因為他們兩個國防會主委跟經濟部的部長都是來自企業界第一個核四 核四花幾千億"},{"start":12193.476,"end":12218.73,"text":"市長,花了幾千億?4800億。蓋核四?4800億。太久了,忘記了。4800億。還有後面的喔,好好算喔。海淀提供核四,花了幾千億。然後現在繼續還要花錢啊,因為你還是要管理啊,要維護啊。"},{"start":12224.434,"end":12242.519,"text":"這個相關的這些力能力電到底經濟部還有包括北大部會編了多少的為了力能所編的預算編的預算很多然後台電還要跟他買對不對台電還要跟他買"},{"start":12246.158,"end":12271.724,"text":"到底將總共多少?沒有一個數字、數據提供給我也提供給部長可以嗎?也提供給這個主計長在整個政策評估的時候才有一個方向真的是不得了啊這個錢真的是不得了"},{"start":12274.335,"end":12284.848,"text":"所以這個部分是這樣的一個整個政策的一個評估才會有一個然後很重要的就是要請次長你還建議這個部長"},{"start":12287.759,"end":12312.671,"text":"把核電的專家,核能的專家,有核能研究,核能我們有三級機構,那個叫什麼,核能一個單位嘛,核能會,然後你們自己台電也很多核能的專家,要共同去,要向部長去做簡報,才是一個正確的一個方向,好不好,因為時間的關係。"},{"start":12314.5,"end":12315.32,"text":"蔡玉瑜委員"},{"start":12351.671,"end":12352.212,"text":"國營事業管理司副司長"},{"start":12368.146,"end":12386.046,"text":"市長我相信市長對加預這個馬籌後二期的這個產業園區的開發那目前台塘大概有100公頃的土地在招商那這個招商的一個問題那市長應該也知道台塘他們"},{"start":12388.139,"end":12406.413,"text":"租給產業的對不對除了租金以外他還要收20年的這個叫做定金20年定金這個很容易讓產業卻步那我實在是在納悶然後像這樣的一個產業園區他跟一般的土地的出租不一樣一個產業園區是要廠商去興建"},{"start":12409.155,"end":12412.718,"text":"一開始就要給他說這個20年的租金對他們來說前期的投資就會過於多所以這件事就會呈現起來他會變成台糖在招商的時候一個很不利的一個項目"},{"start":12427.071,"end":12439.569,"text":"那經濟部現在也在協助台糖招商在嘉義這裡也因為這件事情然後又會有廠商就不一樣的意見那經濟部有沒有可能跟台糖溝通在這件事有一些調整的方法呢?"},{"start":12442.193,"end":12468.361,"text":"我們來跟台湯溝通一下好不好,因為現在原區的話這邊也是租嘛齁,但是那個方式可能...是租不受嘛齁,因為其他,你說像其他的一個招商...因為他是做那個權益金啦,台湯應該是租,那是租,那個權益金...權益金他就有涉算20年嘛,涉算20年租金的一個涉算,所以這個起來,那上面說那個新聞是一開始,新聞都是發生在最一開始捏"},{"start":12469.62,"end":12497.723,"text":"我們來跟台糖,我們來跟他講我認為這件事可以跟金國通談,不然現在當招商的一個樂期,我們贏了這件事因為我們今天要來做半導體的供應鏈對,對,對,整個半導體的供應鏈嘛那這在很關鍵的時候那現在看起來台糖的這一個20年權益金會變成一個不利因素事實上我們還是有很多政策方法可以確保這一些廠商在進駐的時候如何要求他們"},{"start":12498.924,"end":12499.764,"text":"財政部、莊部長、財產署、曾署長"},{"start":12527.011,"end":12551.033,"text":"委員好部長那大概接下來因為財政收支劃分法在財政委員會的一個審議那目前已經送出委員會三分鐘的審議基本上有很多事情都沒討論到那這些沒有討論到的是我認為才是真正在討論財政收支劃分的時候的一個核心的精神所在"},{"start":12551.633,"end":12576.1,"text":"那現在不管是國民黨或者是藍白的版本基本上就是要為中央然後把它垂直分配然後就是要把中央垂直分配越多然後就要把它拿到了拿直接給地方包括有首都的3%包括包括這個他們垂直的分配但是舊水平分配的指標的部分"},{"start":12577.496,"end":12601.875,"text":"這個一直沒有被討論我覺得這個對於尤其像嘉義縣我們嘉義縣在國土計劃法裡面我們不管是這個農一農二、國保一、國保二的土地我相信部長應該很清楚這種土地農一農二因為農業的是不科稅的所以農一農二的產值沒有辦法被計算"},{"start":12602.896,"end":12624.929,"text":"他這一個土地對於地方政府的貢獻甚至對於國家的貢獻沒有辦法被計算國保一、國保二他負責水源的安全所以他有土地使用的一個限制但是水源的安全提供給提供給像我們嘉義啊那些黑沙水口的水源在我們那裡咱們水口水源也在我們大埔"},{"start":12627.771,"end":12628.573,"text":"我認為這種不公平"},{"start":12639.229,"end":12659.249,"text":"所以部長未來是不是有可能把這些指標,然後你們應該要有具體的說這個應該,你要站在我們家嘛,包括賴樂隆委員也有提出用污染產業,這個產業造成空污,造成一些水污的一些指標都應該要納入計算,部長你贊成這樣的?"},{"start":12660.866,"end":12676.179,"text":"委員您說得很適,財化法裡面很重要的一個核心就是水平分配,那水平分配的目標第一個就是要補足地方上一個基準財政收支的一個差短之外,對於基本建設還有財政努力都要放進去,所以"},{"start":12676.599,"end":12703.847,"text":"我們請各地方政府提出的指標大概有80幾項然後我們開會以後就把它縮減然後能夠有共識提到共識那像委員剛剛提到土地面積土地面積不能只看土地面積的數字因為土地面積裡面因為有不同的結構農地跟建築用地跟都市發展的土地它是完全不一樣的土地面積如果您是農地的話田富不徵收這個對於地方政府來說它就少了一個財政的一個收入另外"},{"start":12704.227,"end":12704.247,"text":"﹚廣告﹚"},{"start":12723.829,"end":12724.209,"text":"這就是最大的核心所在"},{"start":12741.178,"end":12760.643,"text":"所以部長會事實上我要被強調就是說事實上這個土地的怎麼利用應該它要有它的一個價值這個地方才有起碼的一個公平正義所以事實上我會請這個國土財產署上來我一樣要講一個概念就是說你現在看到了不管是在發展綠電"},{"start":12761.823,"end":12762.043,"text":"國有財產署收租金"},{"start":12781.307,"end":12795.768,"text":"但是我要強調一個概念我覺得部長可以跟署長再回去思考一下你們這樣收租金就是中央收事實上我覺得要就收租金要做部分的比例然後要給縣政府或者是鄉鎮公所"},{"start":12796.809,"end":12810.951,"text":"第一方面讓縣政府跟鄉鎮公所對於說他們這個土地是來做於綠能所以這個土地未來是沒有辦法被使用的這一件事情他們有部分的一個回饋說地方政府來說"},{"start":12812.152,"end":12835.051,"text":"而不是說大家中央政府需要太陽能的時候一直往這邊找事實上往這邊找這要面對很多的社會成本這個社會成本來自於說這個太陽能產業的競爭以及一些相對應的需要協調或是地方的一些民怨的時候我覺得還是要讓地方政府有著度的他們因為太陽能產業他們有可以在"},{"start":12838.553,"end":12844.656,"text":"國有財產署收的租金的比例分配（可以讓他們可以部分分配（這部分是不是部長可以來?好,那我現在要再講一件事就好"},{"start":12863.945,"end":12884.022,"text":"就是說事實上這一次國民黨版本的財政劃分法他們事實上還是都站在六都的一個想法都沒有把所謂非六都的縣市去做充分的考量我只講一個他們的版本中他們的鄉鎮公所的這個分配是由8%變4%過去是8%嘛"},{"start":12890.223,"end":12893.051,"text":"現在是8嘛所以鄉鎮公所未來分配會變4喔"},{"start":12896.023,"end":12920.152,"text":"會變4%對變4%所以你看這為8%變4%這件事情對於越基層臺灣現在還是三級政府所以我們還是需要鄉鎮公所他們在基站除了六都沒有六都改成區了但是在我們非六都我們還是有布袋鎮、水上鄉、鋪子市還是有這些阿里山鄉他們地方的三級政府"},{"start":12920.532,"end":12923.655,"text":"臺北市政府在無條件給他一個首都的一個3%這個起來看起來就是重都市不重鄉村"},{"start":12942.094,"end":12954.42,"text":"日本的東京在這個所得分配,差不多在二次世界大戰以來,東京沒有拿到任何一塊錢的所得分配。部長,這件事做不對。"},{"start":12958.818,"end":12979.005,"text":"統籌分配最重要的目的就是要調劑營需,然後均衡區域的發展,因為每個地方它的工商條件不同,地理形式也不同,所以要達到一個區域均衡的一個發展,所以讓每個地區的民眾能夠享受到基本的一個建設當然啦,所以部長講的這個是非常的關鍵嘛"},{"start":12981.286,"end":12981.306,"text":"國務卿"},{"start":13001.776,"end":13001.796,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":13023.903,"end":13024.283,"text":"楊瓊英委員請經濟部長"},{"start":13052.463,"end":13064.559,"text":"市長好,我們再就能源政策來做討論我註解說執政黨為了貫徹錯誤的能源政策也造成台電公司的一個經營困難"},{"start":13066.802,"end":13081.565,"text":"同時行政院在5月2日通過了行政院主計總署所編的在113年度中央政府總預算追加預算裡頭預計要再撥補臺電1000億來協助臺電的永續經營那麼我們也看到在114年度的預算裡頭臺電公司也編列了這個政府也編列了撥補1000億公務預算"},{"start":13095.587,"end":13098.912,"text":"如果再加上這2000億的話換句話說之前的3000億那等於是到明年會有5000億那這個經濟部你認為因為我們在10月16號這個月"},{"start":13114.01,"end":13134.959,"text":"10月16日才漲價（電價才漲價（在這樣的情況之下（民眾都說你給我放兩年賠（一方面漲價（一方面用我們的這個追加預算（公務預算也好來撥補資（因為大家都知道這一些錢都來自人民的稅金（那所以說真有放兩年賠（"},{"start":13137.22,"end":13138.762,"text":"市長,您是產業的專家,這樣子的論點應該是不成熟的,是嗎?"},{"start":13157.718,"end":13160.301,"text":"市長,你是三集來行的,因為你長這邊,整個通盤還是一樣漲。"},{"start":13176.559,"end":13179.361,"text":"臺電我們現在在折騰臺電在財務上要去做一些改善第一個譬如說"},{"start":13196.155,"end":13196.896,"text":"市長你現在回答的這兩項"},{"start":13218.49,"end":13219.611,"text":"我們既然希望這樣子的撥補那部長也說過了"},{"start":13236.785,"end":13254.975,"text":"如果波普兩年內臺電的這個財務還沒有改善那變成他是管理不善他應當要走人那我解讀的是說如果真給換句話說明年不會漲電價是不是如此"},{"start":13256.823,"end":13280.915,"text":"這個應該是由電價審議委員會來決定啦我現在這邊我沒辦法去市長董事長還在這邊喔所以每一次問到這個大家都推給電價審議委員會如果要撥補就是說我是因為以前的民生我把民眾的名譽告訴你我們希望能夠以真正照顧民眾"},{"start":13282.176,"end":13284.097,"text":"的權益為基準,我給你這個功課"},{"start":13312.677,"end":13338.617,"text":"包括支援新資持續成長（發放現金給低收入的家庭（以及投資半導體跟人工智慧的AI產業（南韓我們鄰近國家（他也正在考慮明年初（他要制定追加預算（來因應整個消費支出的一個向往（跟經濟成長的一個放緩（在這樣的一個情況之下請教市長（"},{"start":13339.378,"end":13357.169,"text":"日本、南韓他們都這麼做了,他們都這麼做了,也就是官方全部動起來。那針對於通膨、薪資挑戰、半導體以及AI產業的一個發展,我們準備要做怎麼樣的帶領台灣繼續往前衝。"},{"start":13361.55,"end":13361.83,"text":"所以等於是4年後"},{"start":13377.667,"end":13378.327,"text":"本席似乎都聽到穿越時空的答案"},{"start":13402.21,"end":13403.371,"text":"我希望臨近國家已經這麼努力在做"},{"start":13422.347,"end":13438.915,"text":"全部官員總動員我也希望藉由這樣的警惕我們自己經濟部應該要有所方案你把方案給本席如果要等到2030年要等到都是穿越時空的答案這個人民證不及阿主委我再邀請財政部謝謝"},{"start":13453.99,"end":13474.492,"text":"川普勝選重返白宮加上對加幣貨幣友善的候選人幾乎他進入到美國的國會那麼我們各界也預期加幣貨幣會在有利的監管環境中似乎這個方向是會蓬勃發展是不是啊依照你的看法"},{"start":13477.074,"end":13500.808,"text":"這個部分有關加密貨幣的部分我們講這個金管會這個部分以及央行這個部分都會在做處理在做處理那換句話說包括近期比特幣價格飆升那也是預估是朝在有利的監管環境當中那麼加密貨幣會蓬勃發展"},{"start":13502.409,"end":13529.487,"text":"目前來說有關虛擬資產的部分我們目前來說在台灣並沒有把它認定為是貨幣而是把它認為是資產是一個資產那換句話說我們目前針對於加幣貨幣交易所只有營業稅跟營利事業所得稅嗎對不對這個部分因為它是資產所以它的交易也涉及到所得稅"},{"start":13531.135,"end":13548.681,"text":"對,所以那對於個人或者是法人在交易中獲利的部分我們要怎麼樣去明確的來克稅規範有沒有這個方向在眼裡這個部分依法還是根據我們的所得稅法裡面來做規範對"},{"start":13551.169,"end":13569.824,"text":"對,但是部長,到目前為止因為美國明年1月份一組入了美國的白宮那方向是如此那整個世界的潮流到底會怎麼樣那我方也應該要因應以對呀"},{"start":13570.845,"end":13583.598,"text":"因為貨幣是世界通的啊,資產也是世界通的啊那在就個人或者是法人的交易當中獲利的這個部分我們有沒有朝這個方向會有明確的課稅規範"},{"start":13587.764,"end":13611.814,"text":"會有的那你們現在在研擬大概會什麼時候會給社會大眾來說明呢我想這個請複稅署署長來跟你們回答好嗎你告訴我時間點就好了報告委員因為我們現在加密貨幣的課稅是按照現行手續法規定那原則規定有的那細節的部分如果需要研定我們還有另外還有查核機制的部分我們一起來處理那"},{"start":13612.694,"end":13613.114,"text":"五立法委員質詢"},{"start":13642.444,"end":13666.53,"text":"我們到邱志偉委員就結束了謝謝抱歉到邱志偉委員我們休息半個小時謝謝主席有請經濟部能源署吳副署長台電曾董事長能源署吳副署長還有我們台電那個曾文森董事長"},{"start":13671.141,"end":13698.507,"text":"委員好副處長、董事長好今天我是要來感謝也有一些要求那為什麼要特別感謝因為我們長期看到其實原偏鄉很會停電那停電的原因其實蠻多樣的舉個例子來講颱風常常從南台灣上來所以呢像那個一望無際的地方那些電竿、電線"},{"start":13700.407,"end":13725.965,"text":"他很容易呢就倾倒然後就造成停電那有一些地方呢是因為發展觀光像他們要來拍電影當時要拍斯卡羅到處都是電線所以有一些是基於觀光需求那有一些部落呢不知道電竿電線是怎麼建置的又長又密又多那經常造成行車的安全"},{"start":13726.865,"end":13753.005,"text":"有一些地方是因為山林都是樹所以跟這些電幹電線打在一起經常有火災發生總而言之原因非常的多那我也要感謝在我們的反應之後我們表達原鄉也很需要電纜地下化那有一些地區謝謝我們台電願意來協助但是無論如何原住民地區很大"},{"start":13753.906,"end":13765.9,"text":"那麼停電如果成為日常非常的困擾尤其是對這些地方父母關不停的接到抱怨陳情舉個例子像最有名的桃園復興區經常上榜這些年來"},{"start":13769.584,"end":13794.673,"text":"通通都是提到一年停電超過100次那甚至是有的里長跟我們陳情說電器設備都壞掉啦變電箱壞掉啦平均一周斷電5次啊然後呢提到說連外包商都找不到電力輸送的問題到底在哪每一次都回應說是這些動物植物來破壞電力"},{"start":13795.993,"end":13817.17,"text":"最嚴重的是很多的年輕人回來經營產業露營區但是飽受斷電的困擾最後都決定再回到大都會所以我覺得在我們這個當中除了剛才我講的電纜地下化我們也很需要自己原鄉地區電力的建構"},{"start":13818.291,"end":13838.552,"text":"所以以復興區來講這一位區長他就主動的跟外面的學者專家合作他們怎麼做呢他們用一種移動式的碳經濟電廠他是移動式的每一次就去收這一些風導木樹枝然後呢做成再生能源"},{"start":13839.754,"end":13849.844,"text":"希望可以作為一些備用的能源也能夠發電可是他們就遇到很多的困難我曾經在10月30日問過我們的經濟部部長因為你們推動的再生能源發電設備設置管理辦法上面竟然寫死了"},{"start":13860.996,"end":13861.156,"text":"（中午12時（"},{"start":13876.969,"end":13903.821,"text":"竟然沒有什麼誘因為了獲得一千萬的補助他必須要花四千萬自己去買設備所以呢沒有一個相公所做得到我們也鼓勵合作社地方協會參與但是他的總裝置容量要十千瓦以上等等這些都發現至愛難行那妙的是呢我在11月11號呢得到的回覆回覆說"},{"start":13904.941,"end":13905.121,"text":"自愛難行（"},{"start":13919.878,"end":13942.262,"text":"那麼未建這些年能夠有任何一個地方的鄉鎮公所原鄉的或者是合作社能夠參與就表示辦法很有問題反而是要那些民間企業來投入的像紅葉的地熱股才有辦法那就是表示根本不適用地方啊所以"},{"start":13942.802,"end":13954.571,"text":"我覺得經濟部是不是應該好好的去針對這些辦法好好的修正放寬獎勵標準更友善那是不是可以在一週內提出修正"},{"start":13956.938,"end":13972.552,"text":"跟委員報告一下齁,剛剛委員講的那個移動式的那個應該是它力料的部分啦齁,那我們所謂的因為發電設備有分成就是說實際發電的那個是因為它跟台電連在一起,它那個一定要是固定的,因為它還確定說那個連上去的設備是什麼"},{"start":13973.673,"end":13974.533,"text":"委員提到三種的法規,董事長請"},{"start":13995.302,"end":13995.322,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":14012.819,"end":14033.028,"text":"臺電的狀況會是這樣,就是說你在部落內,我們現在其實是在推微電網,我知道委員一定清楚這個是,結果因為我要從山下這樣一路上去,中間受到影響的機會太高了,那其實坦白講部落停電有很多時候故障的都不是部落內部的線路,而是我送到部落的大潰線斷掉,"},{"start":14034.589,"end":14056.594,"text":"像您剛才舉的幾個例子,我們遇到不管是復興或哪裡都是這種狀況,我們會盡量來加快改善。但我也跟委員報告,現在我們有些地方我們很怕就颱風來入段,我們甚至都在入段之前把人就已經先擺到部落裡面去準備修復。這幾年我們其實做了很多改變。所以這種防災的電網很重要,斷訊斷路。"},{"start":14059.855,"end":14071.864,"text":"我們現在是這樣子講,因為關鍵是斷訊,那斷訊的部分還要跟中華電信一起來合作,那原則上我們希望能夠在部落找到一個公共地點來做,就是"},{"start":14073.018,"end":14074.479,"text":"臺電的整個發電量配比火力再生能源幾乎就佔了九成"},{"start":14092.893,"end":14115.653,"text":"然後這個當中50%都在燃料上面所以呢它的一個成本造成你們的發電成本購電成本不斷的上升我看到預算中心的這個數據以你們的發電成本的火力發電109年1.7塊的現在都已經要3.5那或者是像再生聯園的108年1.5現在都要2.58"},{"start":14119.676,"end":14131.928,"text":"那在你們的購入的電力呢民營電廠可能以前兩塊多現在都要四塊多再生能源以前要三四塊現在都要五塊多所以我其實是說導致你們說虧損連連嘛然後說需要追加預算嘛"},{"start":14136.432,"end":14158.673,"text":"如果接下來國際燃料繼續上升的狀況下我們的電價成本也是會繼續上升那你們的對策到底是什麼我們總不可能年年追加預算所以因為時間的關係我想這個就一併給我回覆等一下後面一併回覆所以我想問台電你們目前購買多少原箱電力你們有購買到原箱電力嗎"},{"start":14160.843,"end":14178.521,"text":"跟委員報告,因為原廂大概都不會是發電機,會送上去比較多是啊,所以因為台電的能源政策,像這種你們寫的設置太陽光電系統,風力機組等等這種可能不適合我們部落的生態我們需要的是小型電網,這種小型的發電系統,就像您剛剛董事長所說的"},{"start":14183.746,"end":14204.189,"text":"所以我在這邊看到我們的獎勵不友善那部落很難追求很難達到那個目標所以我是希望說應該要強化納入原住民族地區的這種防災的需求部件小型的發現系統然後擴大發電的效益主要我是說電纜地下化"},{"start":14204.65,"end":14220.367,"text":"議員．議員．議員．"},{"start":14220.567,"end":14249.152,"text":"是,像你們進來做發電常常有很多的糾紛啊像是這些萬里水利發電就花了很多的時間在處理部落關係的認定這個是耗時耗力耗心力又或者像你們過去台電有很多用我們原住民私人的土地可是因為我們當時還沒有所有權結果呢引起很多的糾紛因為你們會還給相公所然後導致這些私有的地主我們現在已經有權利回復辦法"},{"start":14250.092,"end":14250.212,"text":"羅民財委員"},{"start":14270.478,"end":14298.699,"text":"主席、各員、處理、委員長、主席、客戶請主記長以及經濟部連次長部長有沒有來?好,經濟部那個連次長首先請教主記長主長今天最主要是提追加預算是金額是多少?一千億一千億喔?我看到那個你們準備了一些資料"},{"start":14300.253,"end":14322.496,"text":"你的資料大概就是有一頁兩頁三頁大概三頁啦四頁這樣短短的幾張紙然後要我們通過一千億的追加預算再來看一下經濟部好了經濟部的次長嗎?臨時長"},{"start":14325.086,"end":14352.354,"text":"你這邊大概也是有用心在準備可是那麼用心的結果一頁兩頁附件不算因為這間都是空白的三頁這個就是制式的主席長這三頁的紙就要來跟立法院要一千億那真好要那平均的話一頁就三百多億"},{"start":14354.36,"end":14354.88,"text":"現在你們做的每一個步驟"},{"start":14377.395,"end":14395.52,"text":"事實上是攸關民生的問題啊民眾已經受不了啦電價一漲再漲只有薪水沒有漲實質的薪資啊倒退了老百姓怎麼生活啊所以請教一下經濟部現在台電公司會不會破產"},{"start":14404.073,"end":14406.055,"text":"你們不能給人民的感受就是遇到事情政府不撥補就等得到然後用煤電缺電來要挾人民"},{"start":14423.735,"end":14425.936,"text":"臺電在今年年底會把整個財務改善結構的整個分析報告我們要要求他提出來現在是4800億"},{"start":14452.369,"end":14457.053,"text":"主席長,你可以編公務預算來補助一個裡面持有民間持股的公司嗎?"},{"start":14482.08,"end":14506.432,"text":"主席長全台灣上市貴公司有1900家如果你民間的股份政府機關可以補助那請問以後有一些遇到國際因素生產不善經營不利的可不可以來找主席長補助因為他是我們的國營事業所以這個本身我們是補助國營事業"},{"start":14507.933,"end":14532.375,"text":"是怎麼樣我們是補助國營事業他是我們國營的國營事業他裡面有民股啊民股很少啊那你的邏輯來講的話以後包括一營包括和庫等等其他的公司如果虧損沒有辦法經營的時候你政府需要補貼他是可以撥補的啦依照規定是可以撥補的"},{"start":14533.035,"end":14559.739,"text":"委員這個台電的狀況不是不一樣因為所有的輸配電網整個都是台電在經營所以這個如果說沒有一個足夠的資金或財務結構給他他對於整個我們輸配供電的影響是很大對於我們整個在民生用電或產業發展是會影響非常大這個對國家衝擊很大你們就是用這樣不斷的要挾人民啊所以我們立委就是一定要通盤的全盤接受是不是這樣"},{"start":14561.021,"end":14561.441,"text":"主席長主席長"},{"start":14586.519,"end":14595.305,"text":"所以（台電發電燃料成本叫二屋戰爭前大幅增加是不是這個意思"},{"start":14596.104,"end":14596.885,"text":"只有彌補這條路嗎?那就證明了你的"},{"start":14624.804,"end":14625.124,"text":"請回答日本已經重啟發電了嗎?"},{"start":14654.653,"end":14654.773,"text":"核電會不會重啟?"},{"start":14681.906,"end":14682.766,"text":"那經濟部的態度勒?"},{"start":14709.694,"end":14724.206,"text":"我們會依法行政啊,法令規定...所以你就是堅決的反核對不對?沒有,各位媒體我們是依法行政啊。你的法到底怎麼樣啊?現在核有沒有重啟的空間?這個問題你要討論,你要來講啊。"},{"start":14733.772,"end":14747.939,"text":"我們才有辦法來瞭解未來說你發電的成本怎麼計算好再講簡單的就是在5年前平均的一度電費用是多少這個可不可以請台電說明一下"},{"start":14751.46,"end":14774.62,"text":"來請台電董事長 主席長啊 你看台電問的一問三不知 然後一見面就是老套我要錢要錢給我一千億 主席長 以前是一度電兩塊多啦 現在叫到一塊多啦 那但是一塊多那是指民生用電的部分 那現在成本又是兩塊七 所以要倒電一塊啦"},{"start":14775.3,"end":14783.569,"text":"現在民眾也搞不清楚啦一直覺得電價一直漲請問工業用電委員民生電價一直都沒有漲民生電價一度電現在多少民生電價現在一部電全部平均啦因為它是分級的級距330度以下的沒有漲過就沒有漲"},{"start":14797.583,"end":14823.457,"text":"那整個累計級距過去這一段時間以來整個民生的平均電價是2.77元2點比以前高啊沒有啦沒有2.7沒有高我300度以下的電價還比2004年的電價低好那最高的電價平均電價最高是什麼你是超過1000度以上的有一個累計級距多少大概是10塊左右10塊"},{"start":14825.854,"end":14837.704,"text":"10塊是不是?對,那個比較高這個齁用電的級距大家看得很清楚一問三不知連老百姓也不知道老百姓的感覺這是說喔什麼萬物齊掌電價要飆漲那請問今年這一次"},{"start":14850.029,"end":14877.37,"text":"一千億撥補了以後你能保證以後的民生電價都不漲嗎?跟委員報告好我們現在在處理的是過去的臺電因為政策而承擔的支出你今天要一千億嘛那我請問你啊這一千億給你了以後你能不能擔保未來的民生用電不漲"},{"start":14878.985,"end":14893.432,"text":"報告委員,我還是要跟您說一件事,我們現在在討論的是為什麼用到追加的方式,而且主席長剛剛也在說明說他這個部分的財源現在是去年的,所以即是我們現在在討論的是補貼過去對台電造成的虧損。"},{"start":14898.727,"end":14926.095,"text":"假設了這一千億給你的以後你明年電價還會漲?我還是要跟委員報告因為這件事真的電價不是臺電公司決定啦那我再問你但我要告訴各位我要告訴委員的是我們一直在講說因為如果有補貼那電價表演會都會考慮主席站起來了二屋戰爭如果停止的話你的電價要不調降?委員二屋戰爭之後還要看燃料價格怎麼反映"},{"start":14927.482,"end":14943.868,"text":"因為通貨膨脹（戰爭會造成通貨膨脹（通貨膨脹發生以後要怎麼樣子校正（那個跟戰爭結束沒有直接關係我準備的資料沒有辦法說服所有的人民你開宗明義第一個就講啊那個竹記長寫的啊由於二霧戰爭導致國際燃料價格上漲"},{"start":14950.71,"end":14951.371,"text":"請邱志偉委員質詢"},{"start":14986.464,"end":15010.584,"text":"謝謝主席,我電話很準時來請這個台電的曾董事長好,曾董事長經濟部聯次長好,聯次長先請教曾董事長目前基準的電價是不是還低於鎖電成本是大概低多少"},{"start":15012.11,"end":15033.26,"text":"我們現在最主要我們今天討論是因為要補貼民生是嘛我們的平均我們現在算出來大概是每度電差一塊錢每度電差一塊錢那是今年喔今年已經有比較和緩了所以你一千億主要是撥補過去我們對民生用電動漲所造成的損失嘛對不對如果這一千億沒有這個"},{"start":15036.071,"end":15045.708,"text":"沒有讓預算通過那你民生用電繼續動漲那你的虧損會持續增加對不對因為你還是動漲一塊錢嘛民生用電還是不會漲嘛"},{"start":15047.469,"end":15071.409,"text":"那個跟委員報告喔就是民生我應該要這樣子講就是民生用電其實他之前一直在動漲所以累積了台幣的虧損這一千億其實在補之前的所以會長期對於你的售電成本的關係所以你虧損會持續擴大嘛所以才要撥補嘛才通過這個一千億的預算另外你還有10個相關的政策任務比方說你那樣淨零轉型這個很重要對不對是"},{"start":15072.37,"end":15101.189,"text":"既然你不是口說無憑你必須要有很多實際上的這個電網強韌的這些相關的電網我有兩個我們另外一個就是折舊的支出因為我們現在要加強的做電力的建設電網的建設我們現在折舊攤體一年大概1000億那接下來累計會開始往上漲就是它一年累計的費用會持續增加到2040年如果這1000億沒有通過的話你淨零轉型可能會沒有辦法達成對不對或者效果會變得很差"},{"start":15102.418,"end":15124.631,"text":"我們需要更多的籌資的工作要去做第一個,你有政策的目的第二個,你要未來強氮電網各項的電力建設是很重要所以如果沒有...我怎麼想都想不清楚為什麼藍白會要擋這個預算要刪這個預算刪這個預算只會讓台電破產會不會破產?"},{"start":15134.172,"end":15157.763,"text":"總統會不會破產?跟委員報告就是說這一千億我們自己在估算我們的淨值事實上佔我們總資產的百分比一直在下降但是我這樣子講就是說只如果有比較大的價格波動事實上對我說燃料價格波動或是國際的市場波動對台電現在來講都會是一個衝擊"},{"start":15160.902,"end":15186.444,"text":"短時間俄羅斯戰爭好像還沒有停火的跡象,所以國際不穩定的因素還是存在嘛。是,但跟委員報告,我舉個例子來講,其實蛋價上去了,接下來大家一直都在討論這件事情,通貨膨脹發生,其實它要回來,沒有那麼容易。能源價格的狀況也是這樣,它不會說戰爭結束了,價格就回到戰前,其實不會。對,我了解,這個基本常識我們都知道,我也不曉得這個問題怎麼會有這個問題。"},{"start":15189.882,"end":15210.715,"text":"如果用核電,會減少、會降低整體台電的售電成本嗎?我們算過大概一個電,就是核三廠如果真的要延,我們在沒有考慮延逸要清真投資的狀況下,"},{"start":15212.472,"end":15214.753,"text":"韓國的核能比幾乎到三成,我們目前只有6.3"},{"start":15236.288,"end":15244.662,"text":"他們藍企跟藍媒跟我們差不多但他的核能這個到三成左右但是他的虧損還是一樣啊"},{"start":15246.929,"end":15250.173,"text":"現在有人說我要節省成本要發展核電才能把整體的營運成本降低"},{"start":15268.802,"end":15281.25,"text":"這一種利潤對嗎?我要跟委員報告這是百分比的問題而且他有幾個前提就是說如果我們現在核電廠依法要繼續延續就是要停下來做"},{"start":15282.523,"end":15307.816,"text":"做這個研議的相關準備但我也要跟委員報告2022年的時候2022年的時候事實上我們還有合二的一部機跟合三兩部機在運轉那一年的虧損其實也就非常大不是沒有核電就一定不會有虧損從韓國電力的經驗來看你的高核能比也沒有辦法阻擋你的虧損也沒有辦法這個讓電價不調漲對不對"},{"start":15311.884,"end":15313.959,"text":"這個邏輯很清楚 核能不是一個解方欸"},{"start":15319.728,"end":15337.877,"text":"從財政上來看以韓國現在的整個占比來看他也沒有辦法解決整個能源價格上漲的問題電價他的電價調的比台灣還高我跟委員報告2023年如果台電的電價是比照韓電的電價的話這裡不會負1977億我們會賺200多億韓電的電價高還是具有虧損嘛對不對所以"},{"start":15349.068,"end":15374.297,"text":"這個台電的狀況我覺得你要用比較宏觀的去思考那你要獲得社會的支持就是說你漲這一千億是為了什麼要訴諸民意啊你跟過去我們擔負太多政策的這個負擔民生用電動力漲等等是為了讓這個台灣的電力公司能夠永續服務"},{"start":15376.414,"end":15395.873,"text":"財務穩健是最基本的條件所以有很多人提出很多莫名其妙的這個例論我覺得很奇怪另外我們的安全的挑戰也很重要就我們都處於地震帶對不對這地震帶啊這個你想這個只要有地震帶"},{"start":15397.671,"end":15397.691,"text":"市長"},{"start":15413.465,"end":15413.745,"text":"謝謝邱志偉委員"},{"start":15436.67,"end":15442.333,"text":"主席在這裏宣布我們休息半個小時請大家用餐我們到13點20分繼續開會"},{"start":15465.472,"end":15466.292,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":17647.674,"end":17648.634,"text":"臺電董事長 鄭文森董事長"},{"start":17681.076,"end":17686.159,"text":"董事長你提到說如果立法院沒有給你這兩千萬的撥補兩千億的撥補的話可能會讓台電破產嘛對不對你是不是早上有這樣講的"},{"start":17690.563,"end":17718.958,"text":"我沒有這樣講,我說財務的狀況會持續惡化因為委員問我會不會破產,我一直沒有這樣講所以你不是這樣子講因為其實現在台電在資產裡面還有一項我覺得大家有一點鴕鳥心態就是核四因為現在核四兩千多億還是列在台電資產裡面但你現在核四就是沒有要重啟沒有要使用了所以這個資產有跟沒有好像差異不大不然你核四現在要怎麼處理"},{"start":17720.607,"end":17721.888,"text":"兩千多億的資產你要怎麼處理?"},{"start":17740.884,"end":17752.43,"text":"應該要這樣子講,就是說他後段就是他剩下的如果沒有辦法發揮其他作用的部分他就會進到是不是在會計上面要認定認列的方式也有很多種財務上的做法比方說德國當年在要求他的核電廠停下來的時候他有設計一些做法那這些相關的做法我們可能都還要再跟那個相關的單位做討論"},{"start":17769.239,"end":17774.661,"text":"對,那你什麼時候要進行這個動作?我們現在都在做資產能夠讓它活化的規劃因為我每次看到合適被你們列資產2800多億啊"},{"start":17781.175,"end":17806.603,"text":"我會想說為什麼你們好意思列啊?因為你們現在就是沒有要用核四了嘛那...所以...他一直就是擺在那個地方對他擺在那裡但是沒有要用嘛那你原本新建你會預估到他未來的回收嘛就他發電然後他怎麼營運然後如何如何你現在沒有要用所以你即便把他列為兩千萬還多億在那邊可是他實際上是沒有辦法幫台電獲利嘛"},{"start":17807.603,"end":17834.639,"text":"因為我覺得你要面對現實啦不要好像都一直鴕鳥心態那另外我想跟你請教一下因為這個郭志輝部長講阿他說這2000億阿撥補到即便是撥補到台電不能確保台電一定不會漲電價那我記得好像您也有講過一樣的話就是說2000億撥補進去不見得一定不會漲未來不見得不會漲電價等一下委員你該講郭部長講的話對"},{"start":17837.02,"end":17841.984,"text":"他不能保證說2000億波普進去之後一定不會漲電價,他的說法是如果有漲電價的話他下台,他是這樣子,所以如果有漲電價的話他就下台,但是他不能保證說一定不會漲電價"},{"start":17860.319,"end":17876.259,"text":"但是我要講的是說其實我們並不關心他下不下台啊我們關心的是台電每次一直叫大家撥補、撥補、撥補然後不去考慮營運的改善或者是降低發電成本結果最後郭部長走了其實台灣人沒什麼人在乎他走不走啊"},{"start":17876.799,"end":17904.11,"text":"臺灣在乎的是電價會不會無止境地上漲所以你應該要保證你這一次跟立法院要這2000億那未來是多久不會漲電價你可以控制一定的營運能力可以讓臺電的公司體質恢復到比較良好這個是我們國人想要知道的這才比較重要我不知道您的立場或是您能做出怎樣的保證我要跟委員說明一個事情第一個就是電價就不是臺電決定我想這個您很清楚但是臺電營運好一點的話"},{"start":17906.891,"end":17922.723,"text":"好一點的話當然大家就會認為不需要漲我剛才有在答詢的時候有不斷的強調一點就是說電價審議委員會都會把這個補貼如果進來以後整個台電的財務狀況來做總體的考慮那如果改善的幅度就讓他們去做考慮好 謝謝謝謝燕姿委員接著劉勛廷委員諮詢"},{"start":17935.154,"end":17935.354,"text":"財政部部長"},{"start":17956.277,"end":17979.474,"text":"委員好 委員辛苦了 這個大部分的公務機關 公部門 常常大家最害怕的就是財主單位 為什麼是財主單位呢 因為基本上我們要執行政策一定有用錢 財政部管收入 原則上主機管支出 對不對 這個入跟出之間你們應該都有若干的內控機制 對不對 針對各個下到各個部門的時候都有內控機制 對不對"},{"start":17980.796,"end":17986.305,"text":"他們要開什麼計畫要提報什麼預算有一定的格式跟規則有一定的機合對不對?是對不對?"},{"start":17988.071,"end":18014.328,"text":"他提報計畫按照他的需求然後我們再按照財源來做分配按照財源來做匹配對不對所以說基本上在歷年編列一般預算的時候其實都要經過你們的三管五卡當然這個是基於財政紀律的良善出發對不對好那我今天的問題是這樣針對這個一千億的追加預算在追加預算的時候這個主計單位的把關跟內控的機制是什麼有沒有這樣的機制有沒有這樣子的檢討請說明"},{"start":18016.124,"end":18034.122,"text":"因為第一個他提出需求了那第二個就是說還要再看說這個事情的一個是不是符合相關的一個規範那這個部分呢因為當初這個部分涉及到一個民生物價的一個穩定的問題那也是屬於重大一個事件所以我們這個部分"},{"start":18035.143,"end":18035.403,"text":"﹚立法院第11屆第12會議"},{"start":18056.611,"end":18061.598,"text":"臺電在提列說我要增加追加1000億預算的時候你們給了他什麼樣的條件還是就無害放行因為他是一個高度政治敏感的題目"},{"start":18075.657,"end":18077.92,"text":"你們審查的時候有沒有要求他提什麼樣的條件去避免這樣的事不再發生?"},{"start":18089.6,"end":18111.076,"text":"當然是要盡量避免這樣的一個情況來發生但是問題就是說它目前的一個虧損就已經就是說就是民生的部分就2800億然後產業的部分就4000億總共就有6800億左右所以這個部分也是希望能夠來改善它的財政狀況讓整個台電的一個執行能夠更順暢好"},{"start":18112.757,"end":18124.267,"text":"所以你看嘛,你從支出把關的角度,你一定要要求他提一個相關的配套跟計畫跟方案,去避免這樣的事發生嘛,這叫節流對不對?好來開源的部分,財政部長,你們也審查嗎?還是說這個東西原則上主計處理?"},{"start":18125.426,"end":18142.151,"text":"主要在預算的編列是在主計總處那財政部是負責財源的籌措財源的籌措對不對?你們有沒有關切台電怎麼樣開源啊?台電怎麼開源那是台電公司他公司治理那在財政部的部分就對於如果預算要支出的話那財源如何的籌措"},{"start":18142.671,"end":18143.472,"text":"有沒有給台電什麼樣開源的意見沒有?"},{"start":18167.451,"end":18191.361,"text":"臺電的開源的節流我想開源的部分那是臺電他們公司治理的部分他們自己處理就對了這我本期今天花點時間去提詞其實很擔心就是說這個東西你特案處理然後一千億送上來然後講說萬一不通過可能就要漲電價又把它變成一個政治化的題目但是我們要從制度的角度去看如果財主單位過去對於既有的部門都有一定的把關跟把控但是對於追加預算我認為應該更加嚴格"},{"start":18192.361,"end":18218.643,"text":"因為追加預算是特案啊可是看起來好像沒有特別的嚴格也沒有特別的說明也沒有特別的條件這本期非常擔心啊我希望可以建立一套新的機制啦針對追加預算的部分你財主單位更應該嚴格把控比如說像我們之前過去當然我們是從立法院站在監督的角度就是說你台電比如財務的報告或怎麼樣來講你才有辦法說服人民嘛你如果政府內控連這一段都做不到都沒有辦法落實的話那我對於這個一千億要怎麼通過本期是比較悲觀的"},{"start":18218.883,"end":18227.448,"text":"希望財主單位針對追加預算部分的制度設計你的把關機制跟條件要更加嚴格這是本席的提醒好不好請兩位稍作思考謝謝以上"},{"start":18244.163,"end":18250.07,"text":"主席,謝謝。麻煩請我們主計處長以及我們經濟部次長。好,經濟部次長、主計長。來,那個主計長。"},{"start":18260.455,"end":18282.272,"text":"我看到媒體在你上任的時候給你很高的評價控管公款的能力強所以說你是一個很可以把關的過去到現在不管是你在地方政府或是中央的一個單位的一個表現就是可以把關的一個部分那我先請教一下在明年我們首次中央政府總預算突破3兆元"},{"start":18283.232,"end":18312.472,"text":"其中有好多個部會我們看到是說他的行政相關的支出都調漲那給我們的一個說法都是說因為因應所謂的一個電價的調漲所以說他的行政的預算也要跟著調漲但是我們看啊即便是今年我們的電價調漲也只有12.5%那換言之如果明年的這個各部會的行政預算調漲超過12.5%是不是就不合理"},{"start":18313.553,"end":18329.807,"text":"包括委員這個部分因為我們有連續3年調漲但是我們都沒有在一個預算上做調整所以到今年一調漲的話本身它就會超過因為連續這個調漲的部分大概有分3年有11%11連續2年還有一個8.4%"},{"start":18334.051,"end":18356.287,"text":"所以整個合起來就調漲將近百分之三十但是我們前兩年都沒有給他調整預算所以到第三年才調整預算所以這個部分他的幅度就會比較大一點是啊但是這樣子本身也覺得說很莫名啊你如果說照理講你在過去你可以那就是變成說過去我們行政單位行政部門的這個行政預算也都有浮邊的情況"},{"start":18357.248,"end":18374.286,"text":"所以過去兩次也沒有調漲比今年來的嚴重但過去都可以承受那今年你說也要一次補期那還有就是有一些單位甚至調漲的都編列的都比調漲的高所以也才會有民眾會懷疑跟擔心說是不是明年還有可能再繼續調漲的空間"},{"start":18375.967,"end":18395.814,"text":"我再補充說明,其實實際調漲的部分應該是...我覺得這樣變成是說是不是我們中央預算太過於編列的、太過於腐爛了?都有彈性的空間到那麼大,剛剛您講連續3年,百分之30,所以換言之我們3兆元裡面有百分之30的預算,其實有可能是有彈性空間的。"},{"start":18396.414,"end":18421.998,"text":"不是,我這再說明一下,因為調整電費裡面有三個原因,一個就是調整的部分,那調整的部分今年大概是12.37億這個部分,大概16左右啦,調整16左右。那第二個就是因為有新增辦公廳設的部分,所以它這個部分電費會增加。那第三個就是優惠電價它取消了,然後回歸部會來編列的部分,所以主要有三個部分。"},{"start":18422.318,"end":18422.498,"text":"主席長﹖"},{"start":18448.3,"end":18475.38,"text":"我剛也在經濟委員會這邊有諮詢郭部長我講是說既然我們現在台電不是有都推廣是說各公家機關都應該用智慧電表就是要比較嚴格的控管說我們的各公家機關的用電量但是發現一個很離譜的事情勞動部北區分署的分署長他辦公室裡面可以搞質災牆然後說今年二月的澄清書就有員工澄清爆料講是說他的"},{"start":18477.332,"end":18487.036,"text":"公用電新莊本部112年的用電基準比去年高出許多高達3萬多度電媒體報導"},{"start":18489.76,"end":18514.752,"text":"如果說我們今天公部門也沒有去嚴格去把關或monitor或是去了解說我們各公家機關用電的一個狀況然後持續的要民眾一般的老百姓說節約用電甚至總統薩友奇是開一個氣候變遷因應委員會就是結論是說到大家節約用電那不很奇怪嗎所以未來針對我們各公家機關的用電的部分"},{"start":18515.734,"end":18534.152,"text":"我們不管是經濟部不管是台電我們既然已經有智慧電表啦照理講我們應該是可以去瞭解是說去年這個公家機關他用多少電那今年他應該用電的狀況除非他有大幅度的人事的成長或說他有大幅度業務量的成長否則他的用電狀況是不是應該要"},{"start":18535.994,"end":18536.554,"text":"市長說明一下吧"},{"start":18552.782,"end":18582.448,"text":"那種AMI就是智慧電表我想他們那邊應該是沒有去去設置那個智慧電表不過現在沒有嗎?我們新莊那個是第二辦公室不是嗎?那個要去查一下要去查一下因為現在台電在設的設施有分階段在依照不同條件在設置但是應該照理講我們公家機關是不是要優先使用了?公家機關我們現在有跨部會現在有行政院設有永續長而且我們現在在推深度節能"},{"start":18582.988,"end":18583.409,"text":"因為之前我記得我質詢過王美花部長"},{"start":18609.111,"end":18634.204,"text":"他就有講過說公家機關要推智慧電表公家機關率先來做我們那時候還講說給你拍拍手說公家機關你要先做因為這才比較能夠精準的瞭解我每個階段我不是要公務同仁不做事是公務同仁做事我們都支持我們都鼓勵但是如果說突然間有異常的高或異常的低你可以做一個瞭解"},{"start":18634.764,"end":18662.564,"text":"那也才不會說讓我們財政部門會認為說我們主計單位嘛其實你看的就是這一些啊你沒有辦法去限定看那你可以看數字一攤開你就知道為什麼跟去年同期比較有比較異常的狀況所以好這個我們去了解因為有可能是因為他是分屬是在他們的整個勞動部的那個同棟大樓那他是不是分表我們不知道但是總表有一些數據如果是他的便利不是"},{"start":18663.405,"end":18664.626,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":18689.986,"end":18713.423,"text":"致會店表他們有沒有裝然後來去做瞭解不要說讓我們的行政預算感覺太過於腐爛所以這是不是也可以當成是一個指標要求我們各公家機關能夠要裝了這個智慧店表後續的這個行政費用的部分你編列才有個依據這當一個指標好不好研究看看麻煩謝謝"},{"start":18715.094,"end":18715.494,"text":"王國昌委員質詢"},{"start":18746.01,"end":18754.991,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩有請我們經濟部的常志還有台電的董事長還有周文森董事長"},{"start":18764.882,"end":18781.249,"text":"市長好,董事長好先跟市長說明一下上次我在經濟委員會質詢你有關於台元綠能弊案的事情跟委員先抱歉你那天回答陳述跟客觀事實不符的部分我今天在經濟委員會跟部長講了啦"},{"start":18782.269,"end":18804.923,"text":"我相信部長應該有提醒你嘛我先跟委員抱歉因為我那時候是誤認為說提出調查報告我也沒有怪你我今天在經濟委員會跟部長講這件事情的時候也沒怪你但是我討論事情啊喜歡本於客觀的事實所以你現在事實有update更正出來就好了那但是我還是在提醒你們一件事台言綠能啊"},{"start":18806.184,"end":18827.509,"text":"不是只有嘉義役主有問題啊,台南七股問題很大趕快下去查但是台南七股除了我持續在追蹤台研綠能的事情以外另外一個案子是現在早就起訴的,是立昂嘛立昂的弊案檢察官已經起訴了嘛"},{"start":18828.735,"end":18847.583,"text":"那之前我利用在4月黨團協商的時候我們現在曾董事長還在擔任經濟部的政次的時候有請教曾董事長說立揚我們相關的行政調查要進行要處理那那個時候曾次長也承諾我會做嘛"},{"start":18848.527,"end":18876.865,"text":"那個委員我這樣講是我先把脈絡講一下你是說當時我們能源署有一個同仁涉案是是是同仁的部分是不是要做行政調查是是是那後來我這樣子說我們也回去有跟部長報告部長也有說這個事情該怎麼樣做就怎麼做是他現在也調開組長的職務沒有現在我們一件事情一件事情來啦因為我向來是對事不對人啦那個人你們依照考機的程序該怎麼處理就怎麼處理嘛"},{"start":18877.705,"end":18887.775,"text":"我沒意見啦那是你們行政程序考機的處理嘛但我在乎的是行政調查報告在哪裡目前這個行政調查報告在哪裡"},{"start":18890.08,"end":18910.921,"text":"因為你現在已經離開這個位置然後你去台電當董事長那經濟部的官員有經濟部別的官員來接牽涉到交接的問題那難得今天這個委員會有機會董事長在經濟部的常識也在我只有一個關鍵的問題請問行政調查報告在哪裡"},{"start":18912.912,"end":18913.552,"text":"這是兩回事喔 第一個"},{"start":18936.378,"end":18953.525,"text":"檢察官起訴的部分是刑事偵查程序這個我都尊重除了刑事偵查程序以外我4月跟當時的次長說的是行政調查那後來5月20號以後就交接嘛那我現在只有一個問題行政調查報告在哪裡委員我這樣說我現在我們確定一下其實調查的是我們能源署的同仁的那一個事情嗎沒有啊就整個"},{"start":18966.451,"end":18988.777,"text":"七股立洋集團在七股發生了弊案你們不是要做行政調查嗎?那個我們那天是在做相關的那個因為有一個協商的案件然後問到這個問題委員問我的我這樣講就我印象所及其實關鍵要談的是我們能源署統人涉案的部分我說他已經進入刑事偵查所以我們尊重刑事偵查"},{"start":18990.097,"end":19002.824,"text":"委員當天講的講法是這是兩件事,行政調查還是可以做行政調查,所以依照我的理解是針對我們同仁的這一個部分那針對你們同仁的行政調查做完了嗎?做完了嗎?沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":19010.808,"end":19037.204,"text":"我知道你們怎麼處置那個同仁啦我還是回到最簡單的問題 奇怪這個問題有這麼難理解嗎行政調查做完沒有同仁的行政調查應該已經做完了做完了 那個行政調查報告呢可以收到我辦公室嗎 因為我等很久了 我等好幾個月啦還是沒有行政調查報告"},{"start":19039.976,"end":19045.901,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、經濟委員會第1屆第2會期財政、經濟委員會第1屆第2會期財政、經濟委員會"},{"start":19065.47,"end":19090.55,"text":"這是兩回事嘛來我直接給你看法規我直接給你看法規經濟部及所屬機構處理涉嫌弊案人員行政責任因行注意事項十五天內要完成十五天內完成還要進行完成行政責任的檢討所以我才一路追我才一路問一個最簡單的事情行政調查報告在哪裡"},{"start":19091.823,"end":19103.359,"text":"你回去瞭解一下好不好你可以回去瞭解一下嗎回去瞭解一下以後再告訴我說行政調查報告在哪裡沒有就沒有嘛這樣可以嗎"},{"start":19105.353,"end":19106.575,"text":"今天登記花園的委員竟已詢答完畢,現在進行討論事項的處理。"},{"start":19122.835,"end":19146.863,"text":"請議事人員先讀今日審查追加預算的審查項目。預算提案共19案。那預計先讀的時間是12分鐘。先讀完畢以後即進行協商。那財政部,財政部請留下國庫署。那其他的同仁請回。財政部留下國庫署。謝謝。那現在先讀開始。"},{"start":19150.012,"end":19159.626,"text":"113年度中央政府總預算追加預算案一稅住部分第13款經濟部主管追加一千億元第一項經濟部追加一千億元第十目營業基金追加一千億元"},{"start":19161.055,"end":19177.944,"text":"二（融資財源調度部分（以上稅數追加一千億元規劃以一用以前年度稅計剩餘為財源支應（為1112年度總決算所產生之稅計剩餘需事113年7月審計部審定後時的運用（故意追加預算案籌編時先行編列取借債務（需算執行時再以審計部審定後之稅計剩餘支應"},{"start":19182.844,"end":19193.08,"text":"委員提案部分共19案第一案委員王洪輝等3名提案營業基金減月1100元第二案"},{"start":19195.014,"end":19215.173,"text":"銀行基金檢略一千億元委員王鴻薇等三人提案銀行基金檢略一千億元委員賴世保等三人提案銀行基金檢略一千億元委員張其楷等三人提案銀行基金檢略一千億元委員黃雙雙等三人提案銀行基金檢略一千億元委員黃雙雙等三人提案"},{"start":19216.534,"end":19239.431,"text":"銀納基金檢列一千億元委員黃珊珊等三年提案銀納基金檢列一千億元委員黃珊珊等三年提案銀納基金檢列一千億元委員黃珊珊等三年提案銀納基金檢列一千億元委員黃珊珊等三年提案銀納基金檢列一千億元委員黃珊珊等三年提案銀納基金檢列一千億元委員黃珊珊等三年提案"},{"start":19240.572,"end":19257.305,"text":"主決議第13要求臺電公司提出財務改善方案之順便報告為賴瑞隆等三案提案第14要求臺電公司詳時說明其財務改善方案（短中長期經營改善計畫及所需資金來源等（並加強控管"},{"start":19258.479,"end":19275.859,"text":"提出順便報告為劉明財等三項提案。提示五案為因未來電源結構轉型趨勢予以謹慎省省檢討電源配比妥適性,省著我國能源政策滾動檢討妥適電源配比並加強燃料成本之控管"},{"start":19277.574,"end":19301.468,"text":"委員吳立法等上任提案第16案建請經濟部與臺電公司114年度派員到美國或其他國家學習或共同合作研究新核能技術或系好型模組化反應爐加速引進新核能技術強化未來基載發電穩定度以利未來2050進行臺販發展委員林德甫等上任提案第17案"},{"start":19303.118,"end":19316.144,"text":"要求經濟部督促臺電公司重新檢討並恢復原先簽約5要件並評估是否應待業者取得電廠籌備許可方可簽約並提出書面報告委員郭國文等上任提案"},{"start":19318.22,"end":19344.068,"text":"第18案（經濟部應督導臺電公司落實職場反霸凌保護吹噪者防止吹噪者二致傷害委員（林德福等三人提案第19案（請臺灣電力公司針對陽明山新安路及臨街巷道電感地下化之騎乘及新安路新增聯絡線路之工程進度與成效提出書面報告委員（王世堅等三人提案宣布完畢"},{"start":19350.56,"end":19362.527,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":19380.631,"end":19402.368,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":19418.123,"end":19425.128,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議"},{"start":19444.411,"end":19471.051,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":19495.083,"end":19496.303,"text":"委員會委員會議"},{"start":19514.309,"end":19535.128,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":19543.998,"end":19544.558,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":19583.751,"end":19584.511,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":19612.637,"end":19614.411,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":19621.041,"end":19646.016,"text":"好 謝謝現在我們開始進入到113年度中央政府總預算的追加預算案那這個第一案到第12案因為它其實內容都是一致性的所以我們把它並案處理經檢列一千億一千億所以現在在現場就是王鴻薇委員是不是就是說"},{"start":19648.178,"end":19653.85,"text":"王宏輝還沒有到,那我們先給黃珊珊委員做提案的說明"},{"start":19655.509,"end":19683.928,"text":"好謝謝昭緯還有那個郭國榮委員還有台電我想今天我們的提案很單純的就是有幾個我大概有9個內容需要台電要給我們做回覆的當然我們主要是希望說簡略但是裡面的內容還是各有不同還是希望說第一個台電要提出需量競價制度的書面報告這個是在預算中心給我們"},{"start":19685.029,"end":19691.1,"text":"做了一些調查之後（他認為說目前的這個部分還是有待檢討（第二部分就是"},{"start":19693.634,"end":19715.92,"text":"臺電到現在是用撥補的方式在彌補他們的虧損但我們還是認為說不是開源就是要節流那節流的情況下現在民生用電大概是最大的虧損的來源所以我們還是希望說臺電應該引導民間來做節電尤其是公部門的節電計畫之前都有那現在有沒有新的計畫跟目標為將來的虧損來做一些彌平"},{"start":19719.921,"end":19743.104,"text":"第三個是因應我國面對高速成長的資料中心用電需求還有未來的AI那這些東西都可能運用到非常高的電量那我們也希望說這個部分臺電必須要應對否則將來也是一樣我們的電越發越多但是用的量也越來越多那對於我們的電價或者是臺灣的電力配置我們還是希望他們提出命報告"},{"start":19744.085,"end":19758.417,"text":"第4個是要希望他們檢討未來10年的火力發電發電量的占比因為現在我們的火力發電占比將近80%那煤或者是天然氣的採購他完全"},{"start":19759.218,"end":19761.561,"text":"第5個是資產活化,剛剛講的不是節流就應該要開源,但資產活化"},{"start":19774.797,"end":19774.957,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19791.11,"end":19809.745,"text":"第6個是小股東的權益目前我們還是有民股所以他們臺電的虧損還是會造成一些股東權益的影響跟一般的國營事業不同也請臺電在確保小股東權益的同時要購回臺電民股的必要性跟成本推估針對電業法是不是要做修法提出書面報告"},{"start":19810.726,"end":19838.765,"text":"第7個是就合資公司有關天然氣接受部分因為中油跟臺電都有各自在做天然氣接收站那我們也希望臺電針對地熱電廠的可行性的這些評估可能都應該成為他們將來在電價尤其是我們再生能源的配比上面可以增加的狀況而不要一直依賴天然氣第8個是協和電廠我們還是希望臺電能夠說明協和電廠他的更新改進計畫"},{"start":19840.886,"end":19841.046,"text":"提出書面報告"},{"start":19869.012,"end":19871.555,"text":"這次我們特別針對這個臺電要追加這一千億的預算我們提了幾個案子包括"},{"start":19894.639,"end":19904.162,"text":"案有提到113年度中央政府總預算追加1000億可是臺灣的能源佈局不僅關乎經濟發展更與國際情勢有密切相關臺電又長期虧損主管機關經濟部對於能源政策到現在"},{"start":19914.075,"end":19929.945,"text":"會案不明（能源又不穩定（電價節節攀升（環境又不永續（不只影響國內中小企業的發展（更阻礙了國際投資的意願（賴總統已經提出來說要第二次能源轉型（可是內容看起來包山包海（"},{"start":19931.286,"end":19951.972,"text":"多元力能、深度節能、先進儲能、強韌電網及天然氣、氣炭化等等各種名詞堆疊可是缺乏能源轉型的具體的路徑臺灣民眾黨提案要求行政院提出未來能源配比跟電價政策專案這個報告才能夠漲電價或者再度的撥補可是"},{"start":19954.133,"end":19969.53,"text":"經濟部卻提供了非常粗糙的這個內容顯見民進黨政府維繫臺電的這個營運的這個策略僅剩下增資撥補、追加預算跟漲電價四個途徑到現在沒有整體能源的策略而且沒辦法去填補補滿臺電企業的這個黑洞"},{"start":19973.334,"end":19993.284,"text":"113年8月8日（總統府有開了國家氣候變遷對策委員會（第一次委員會議（總統就說（能源議題絕對不是簡單的（只是反核跟擁核的是非題（在國家治理中的每一個決策（勢必多是多元的選擇題（甚至是複雜的多選題（總統也提過說（已經停機了核能的基礎（"},{"start":20000.207,"end":20025.754,"text":"規劃維護未來是可以緊急使用的以備不時之需中央政府跟經濟部應該審慎去評估已經停機的核能機組保有未來可以緊急應用這個可能性並扮演這個備載也能演這個角色而不是用從多元發電的角色一直就把這個核電把它排除所以我們提案該筆預算百分之百刪除這是第一個提案第二個提案是"},{"start":20027.717,"end":20051.707,"text":"稀量競價措施辦理方法是電力系統高債的時期開放用戶將節省用電回賣給臺電這公司並由用戶來出價競標臺電公司依照電力系統的需求採月低報價先得標的方式來採取誰得標倘得標者或易貨用電"},{"start":20052.927,"end":20052.947,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":20062.711,"end":20064.612,"text":"臺電公司為了鼓勵用戶大電在"},{"start":20087.481,"end":20092.163,"text":"在104年的4月29日獲得經濟部同意推動需量淨價計畫可是從110年起由經濟部調度改為安全調度"},{"start":20108.749,"end":20120.76,"text":"他平均每度擴敵金額高於高壓級特高壓電售價有兩到三倍,恐有高價回饋給用電搭戶之疑。依照臺電統計,實施氣量淨價由109年的15928千瓦,昨年已經降到112年度的"},{"start":20129.989,"end":20146.906,"text":"一千五百四十四千瓦減幅高達九十點三一趴同期間平均擴減金額每度由三點二三又增到了八點七一所以我們建議這一千億還是必須要刪除的抱歉因為案子的很長我把重點練一下免得浪費大家太多時間好不好"},{"start":20148.547,"end":20167.388,"text":"第三個案子是有建於113年10月24日總統府國家企劃變遷對策委員會的第二次會議。總統有說最好的能源就是節能。臺灣的經濟發展需要產業跟外資持續在臺灣的投資,也就需要穩定的電源。"},{"start":20168.109,"end":20168.129,"text":"臺灣民眾黨團"},{"start":20197.301,"end":20224.924,"text":"我目前的主張就是這一千億若沒有達到早上我們質詢的去做的某些改正特別是B案或者是那個核電的這個整個能源政策的這個討論我們是建議要刪減全部的一千億的預算好 謝謝謝謝齊凱委員接著這個第二案的簡略那個一千億我那個陳一貞是第二案的共同提案人就請陳一貞委員先說明再接著是王宏威委員說明那"},{"start":20225.965,"end":20242.916,"text":"緊接著是賴斯堡委員說明,好,謝謝。這個齁,我們推提案檢列這個一千億齁,事實上是非常正面的啦齁。剛剛這個,我們市長有說什麼俄烏戰爭國際燃油價格上漲喔,但是事實上這個,像北美布蘭特的這個,這個油價齁,都已經從這個"},{"start":20247.699,"end":20276.141,"text":"一百二十二點八美元一桶降到了現在七十五點六十六美元一桶表示國際的燃油價格是已經回穩了嘛所以這個還沒有到那但是也是沒有說一直這樣再漲了嘛那所以所以我覺得臺電需要一直都這樣撥補這些虧損或是那個需要錢真正的原因絕對不是這個國際燃油價格的這個這個問題嘛這個我們想大家心知肚明要說清楚我們是在"},{"start":20276.881,"end":20295.28,"text":"國民黨要提案簡略這個一千億不是一千萬一千億是在幫助台電因為台電我們剛剛都講過了嘛台電每發一度電也要大概四塊錢的成本嘛那你賣是賣大概可能三塊多嘛是不是剛剛說三塊多二零九兩萬七給你三塊"},{"start":20296.081,"end":20302.603,"text":"臺電公司來講這個是非戰之罪啊你賣越多哪一個生意賣越多越虧損的那這個根本人員還是在於我們國家的人員政策啦那所以我們今天決定說不要撥補這個1000億我們之前已經給了2000億齁2023年2000億那2014年又增值1000億這樣已經給了3000億那現在還在追加1000億就4000億了明年再"},{"start":20322.168,"end":20340.563,"text":"明年預算又有1000億就5000億好像還2000億就5000億的吧這樣就5000億而且不是說我們今天如果給了這個1000億這個信就可以解決如果說我現在把這個洞補上去1000億給上去這個信就解決的話那當然這個我們也是願意來協助台電問題是你那個洞沒有填上嘛你就是你賣你發電發"},{"start":20343.206,"end":20343.386,"text":"發言委員（"},{"start":20360.526,"end":20373.337,"text":"國內的企業界一直在說那我看我們現在我們代政府也有好像有在提說往核能方向走因為核能在全世界也是乾淨能源的嘛那相對也是便宜這個才是根本解決之道所以國內黨提出檢列這個1100億是要"},{"start":20375.179,"end":20405.179,"text":"．議員．議員"},{"start":20405.179,"end":20409.983,"text":"我們提出有關於這個追加預算就是全數刪除簡略就一千億其實也是呼應當時我們經濟部長他剛剛上任的時候他作為一個企業界的負責人"},{"start":20430.28,"end":20433.304,"text":"到了公家機關．當時說他其實就並不贊成用公務預算一直在彌補臺電的虧損所以我們事實上也是呼應最早我們這個郭志輝部長他的立場"},{"start":20445.518,"end":20448.02,"text":"國際能源價格的飆升但是大家也知道在惡霧戰爭的時候確實國際能源價格飆升但是很快的其實也就回跌到正常的水準甚至比惡霧戰爭"},{"start":20470.276,"end":20472.478,"text":"（中央政府總預算提案截止時間．1月26日．二）中午12時．1月26日．二）中午12時．1月26日．"},{"start":20499,"end":20503.063,"text":"還有最重要的社會大眾非常關心有關於電價的問題那如果說今天提出來說這1000億是為了要彌補虧損然後來抑制電價那也不合理啊我們事實上在這之前我們包含增資和彌補就是撥補也已經達到3000億可是過去這兩年我們的電價也一直在上漲不但工業用電上漲"},{"start":20527.102,"end":20527.302,"text":"﹚立法院第11屆第2會期財政．"},{"start":20547.865,"end":20565.975,"text":"直接的影響呢當然有直接的影響不是只有民生用電那麼大家都知道這個很多的成本都是會轉嫁的所以在這邊我也看到我們包含待會賴世保委員也可以也會做這個提案說明還有這個民眾黨團也提出來對這一千億我們認為應該做這個整個的刪除還有簡略這個以上跟大家說明謝謝"},{"start":20578.672,"end":20591.799,"text":"謝謝,那接著請郭國文委員說明主席、各位委員、大家好老師說我對台天意見也很多我對經濟部也很感冒特別能源署"},{"start":20592.728,"end":20608.261,"text":"但是事實上各位所說的這個一千億的部分我還是比較認定於他有承擔政策上的責任所造成的虧損那黃委員確實提到說還是一樣在調電價問題是電價之所以能夠有節制的去調"},{"start":20614.126,"end":20637.925,"text":"你覺得他承擔了大部分的政策上的虧損嗎?但是我說的能源政策確實也有檢討的空間但我檢討的空間可能是跟各位不太相同我倒覺得多元綠能的部分真的做得不夠老實講有些政策看大不嘆小只有KPI沒有真正的落實真正的多元綠能政策"},{"start":20640.027,"end":20661.876,"text":"我講白一點啦,這些台電也好啦,經濟部也好啦,真的啦,回去要好好面壁思過,這不是錢的問題而已啊,還有政策的問題啊,不然人家意見不會那麼多,你如果承擔的政策責任還被人家講成這樣子,自己就要好好想一想,到底在堅持期間什麼?除了經濟部門被檢討嗎?難道信心部門就是真理的化身嗎?"},{"start":20671.419,"end":20679.725,"text":"我問了幾次有沒有來溝通沒有一次來溝通傲慢嘛有需要這麼傲慢嗎我是覺得講實在話我老實講我贊成贊成很不開心但是事實歸事實政策歸政策"},{"start":20692.168,"end":20719.304,"text":"事實上他是承擔的政策責任啊那如果說大家認為這一個要刪除的話我就我有不同意見我就主張要保留但是相關的主角有胸臺店還有包括能源署要那個認真的去面對這個問題那我這邊慎重邀請一下那個常務市長警長次來我辦公室來一趟好好溝通一下我早上對你們整個能源政策的一個質疑啊"},{"start":20723.274,"end":20723.935,"text":"立法院議員發言"},{"start":20745.151,"end":20750.453,"text":"負責負責負責負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負�"},{"start":20773.669,"end":20774.212,"text":"問題會改觀嗎?這樣問題會改觀嗎?請求你會改觀嗎?"},{"start":20779.669,"end":20779.809,"text":"委員會議委員會議"},{"start":20805.37,"end":20805.39,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":20825.049,"end":20825.069,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":20846.744,"end":20866.701,"text":"為什麽不能一次掌族?為什麽不能一次掌族?你怕死啊,大家就要選票啊,就變成這樣了,這就是政治化不用核電,政治化不敢對那些高用電戶的給他反應成本,給他反應。"},{"start":20867.862,"end":20896.543,"text":"因為你們要非核家園,所以中共結構就是非核嘛,所以這個東西是你自己的問題做簡字符,每年這樣,今天是要兩千,兩個一千,一千追加預算,一千增資,每年都一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千一千"},{"start":20897.768,"end":20904.573,"text":"我再強調一遍,我剛才執行的兩邊執行,財委會有執行的,經濟委員會我也執行的。國務長就一副調,人家當無所謂,就舊情就好啊。"},{"start":20911.397,"end":20915.26,"text":"財政部長講 歷時1.5% 你們去台電借根本不到1.5% 可能1.2、1.3、1.2多少 差不多1.5、15、16、17億的 那我算啥"},{"start":20930.951,"end":20931.111,"text":"國務部長郭文貴"},{"start":20954.898,"end":20959.104,"text":"表現的機會,不要把國務部長這樣,只顧國務部長一副白痴的樣子,這樣想就想,你就給他表現的機會,這個不要,就是回歸企業經營的本質。"},{"start":20967.577,"end":20995.667,"text":"若是要照顧,要照顧學校要照顧,醫院要照顧這個弱勢團體要照顧但是企業界不要照顧啦企業界這你賺錢賺錢你拿錢送他他在那邊等這個真的要好好去檢討就是你們就推給什麼電價委員會你就告訴電價委員會我企業界全部反映全數反映為什麼不可以用電大陸全數反映"},{"start":20997.149,"end":21009.433,"text":"這才是一個正辦嘛﹖而且很多民進黨立委都提出這樣的概念呢﹖這個7月讓他全數反應為什麼臺灣已經用錢的地方太多了﹖特別現在又要用到很多錢去買軍購"},{"start":21012.113,"end":21012.293,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":21034.807,"end":21053.614,"text":"我核電用的房子30、20然後再這樣子還虧你還跟我們要說增資那還有道理結果經濟部長也不要好像我們要給錢熱臉貼人屁股企業界也不買單企業界賺了這個錢還在消遣說台灣的電不夠便宜不夠便宜是不是這東西零零總總加起來這個1000億"},{"start":21061.607,"end":21080.956,"text":"所以追加預算一千億毫無道理啦就按照國務部長講的去借錢一年付17億的利息就改過來啦雖然我們的負債已經一兆六一兆六以上了啦就就是那麼負啊這東西怎麼有啥去國、國家啊啊沒多少你怕啥對不對"},{"start":21082.619,"end":21082.899,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":21100.772,"end":21122.688,"text":"首先謝謝委員因為確實台電這個虧損確實是存在當然確實是因為為了要真的是要穩定這些物價還有照顧這些民生跟弱勢所造成的一個結果現在如果說不想辦法去解決台電這個問題讓它一直虧損下去我們都知道台電是我們台灣唯一現在的輸電"},{"start":21124.389,"end":21152.608,"text":"和配電的一個 如果它的營運有產生一些狀況的話那對整個臺灣的這個輸配電的供給 確實還是會有一點影響啦這個影響其實是蠻大的 不管在產業發展或是說我們一般平常的用電的不方便性 尤其是大家都 都說不可以停電 不可以跳電嘛這些種種的很多都要花錢 那花錢有兩部分 一個他在他之前講說"},{"start":21153.388,"end":21153.488,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":21183.548,"end":21185.289,"text":"12月31你就要把處理的事情要講清楚啊"},{"start":21213.386,"end":21235.434,"text":"在一個月之內要講清楚那個委員我現在是我都可以直接說就是整個協和未來要怎麼樣子運轉這個我可以回答但是替代方案我們現在真的是沒有就是說在可以的規範下是真的要馬上拿出一個替代方案還是不太可能如果寫後段我們可以儘快來寫好"},{"start":21243.032,"end":21267.938,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝經濟部次長各位委員我想這個第一案跟第12案到第12案第一案到第12案我就併案處理了那就是因為大家有不同的一個看法那是不是簡略一千億那我就保留送宴會協商不曉得在現場的委員"},{"start":21270.617,"end":21271.858,"text":"財政部長財政部長"},{"start":21290.478,"end":21301.547,"text":"就是第13案到第19案跟臺電有關的就是我們請那個鄭文森董事長一併說明好不好好等一下等一下第13案照案通過是"},{"start":21318.839,"end":21321.442,"text":"第14案,我們也有跟羅委員討論過,還有賴氏堡委員,我們會遵照辦理。"},{"start":21328.627,"end":21351.687,"text":"第15案我們剛才國會主有跟吳立法委員說明過就是他裡面有一句話啦就是103到112年再生能源平均的購電費率逐年上升成為台電成本這一句話要刪掉因為其實比較前面的其實等購費率會比較高所以這一句話不是完全是一樣的所以我們這一句話建議把它給刪掉吳立法委員那個有讓你簽字嗎"},{"start":21360.443,"end":21377.734,"text":"我主要跟我早上質詢我有表達那個意思啦我是覺得說關於這個檢討電源配比的妥適性那不要忘記因為我們山區原偏鄉其實對於電的需求"},{"start":21378.815,"end":21403.776,"text":"我們遇到的就是常常停電那它的原因很複雜所以我們也需要有所謂的發電系統那這個部分我是希望說未來可以去因地制宜考量我們原鄉的一個發電系統但是我們目前看到的就是這些提供的誘因政策像是再生能源或者公民電廠等等其實條件都不夠好"},{"start":21404.377,"end":21404.477,"text":"（發言委員"},{"start":21428.295,"end":21449.066,"text":"第15案主決議修正通過我們進入到第16案是不是那個鄭先生董事長因為這個現在賴氏堡委員在我們可不可以這樣子講就是說因為中間有一段本席建請經濟部委員台電公司檢討114年度派員到美國或其他國家學習的"},{"start":21450.987,"end":21470.012,"text":"對,因為我的預算已經送進來了,就是它的整個出國計畫等等都會在裡面,那我們可不可能可以調整或檢討,就是這樣子,其實文質上沒有太大的不同。那我也要跟委員說明,這些所有的新技術我們都有在follow,因為我們現在也還是1O的會員啊。好,世保。你們不要擔心啦,這個建基呢。"},{"start":21476.483,"end":21477.824,"text":"那我進入到第17案 那個曾董事長"},{"start":21504.878,"end":21529.299,"text":"實際上那個郭國文委員提案那樣子就是我們會照這個原則我們都會來做只有一個地方剛才業務處跟我說要兩週內可不可以給他們多一點時間沒有因為委員在現場郭文委員一個人他要改文字喔免於同意好免於同意啦好非常很為難齁"},{"start":21531.497,"end":21550.934,"text":"我們就修正通過第17案進入第18案好18案我們會依照委員建議辦理委員提案辦理好那就第18案照案通過第19案19案也是遵照辦理好第19案主決議也是照案通過"},{"start":21564.574,"end":21567.436,"text":"主席主席那我的報告臺電會給啦齁一個月跟兩個月嘛齁好謝謝"},{"start":21595.779,"end":21623.481,"text":"好協商完成請議事人員先讀協商的結論先讀協商結論第一案至第12案均保留雙院會處理第13案照案通過第14案照案通過第15案修正通過第16案照案通過第17案修正通過改為一個月內第18案照案通過第19案照案通過先轉筆"},{"start":21627.262,"end":21642.521,"text":"請問各位委員對協商的結論有沒有意義?請各位委員對協商的結論有沒有意義?沒有意義那就通過本次會議做如下的一個結議說明跟詢答完畢"},{"start":21643.542,"end":21658.241,"text":"委員質詢為及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會在一週內以書面答覆。委員另外要求期限者從期鎖定。委員邱毅英、王世堅、陳昌明首題的書面質詢。"},{"start":21660.744,"end":21688.003,"text":"．列入紀錄．看登公報．並請相關部會以書面答复．審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算追加預算案．除照協商結論通過以外．其餘均照列．有關正式別．稅出預算．隨從以上的機關．機關別審查結果．調整前案審查完略"},{"start":21689.437,"end":21716.588,"text":"明據審查的報告提報宴會討論宴會討論前需交由黨團協商宴會討論時由本席補充說明請各位委員對以上的決議有沒有意義好沒有意義那就通過另對本次會議議事錄授權由本席核定後確定請各位委員有沒有意義好沒有意義就通過本次的會議議程已進行完畢"},{"start":21717.768,"end":21724.633,"text":"如果有不在場的委員．補題書面的執行一併列入紀錄刊登公報．並請醫事人員協助處理。 散會"},{"start":21748.335,"end":21749.796,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":21777.961,"end":21777.981,"text":"委員會議"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}