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.446,"end":1954.615,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生、大家早安。感謝各位委員會安排考試院及所屬預算的審查。考試院歷年各項重要法案、施政計畫跟預算承蒙各位委員大力支持與協助,使各項工作在既有的基礎上能夠順利推展,謹先表示由衷的感謝之意。"},{"start":1955.515,"end":1979.952,"text":"本院主管的114年度預算編列情形其中所屬機關的部分稍後會由各首長來說明。以下請就本院部分來扼要報告,敬請指正跟支持。為了服應民意對國家發展的期許以及因應資訊跟數位時代的用人需求本院持續深化業務的數位轉型推展電腦化考試的運用跟電子證書的發放"},{"start":1981.113,"end":2000.416,"text":"也根據運用考權資料庫數據分析來落實行政室的決策此外本院也持續建構多元彈性的考選機制秉持公平公正、世財世所的精神依法來辦理公務人員及專屬人員的考試並且精進公務人員招募策略以及優質人力來強化政府人力資源的運用"},{"start":2001.317,"end":2014.494,"text":"而且我們也持續檢討主管法規與時距禁健全文官制度使其能夠配合國家發展需求跟社會的變化來提升各部門的職場環境。針對上述各業務重點所編列的114年的預算跟113年的差異並不大"},{"start":2019.961,"end":2036.526,"text":"在稅務部分比今年113年減列了466萬5千元主要是因為我們推廣電子證書所以勤領紙本證書的比例已經下降因此減編了相關證照費的收入在稅出部分本院114年稅出預算編列3億7293萬8千元比113年略增了"},{"start":2043.088,"end":2054.295,"text":"兩千八百六十六萬三千元,主要是增列了軍公教人員待遇調整的人事費以及台灣冰水主機影音會議系統跟構置語音辨識系統等所需要的設備經費。"},{"start":2056.779,"end":2072.534,"text":"所以本院自9月1日起是進入看守期間為了尊重第14屆考試院的權責已經暫停進行法案審查作業跟重大政策決定但是各單位仍然克盡職責使必要的行政業務能夠如常運作不影響為民服務"},{"start":2073.715,"end":2090.747,"text":"也感謝貴院已經加速進行14屆考試院人事統一權的審查,使本院的政務運作渴望恢復常態相信在他們上任之後,一定會跟續推展各項施政,積極回應社會的期待以上報告,敬請各位委員會議指教。謝謝好,謝謝劉秘書長。接下來請考選部部長劉孟啟報告"},{"start":2100.01,"end":2120.365,"text":"主席各位委員大家好首先感謝大愛院委員歷年來對考選部的支持使得本部各項業務都順利推展首先在113年年度施政重點執行情形今年首次舉辦公務人員離島特考持續偵辦第三次護理師考試改善國家考場環境設施推動國家考試數位轉型"},{"start":2121.846,"end":2144.017,"text":"以及精進考試方法技術,截至11月18日,已辦理19次考試,總淨零品點試人力2827人次,應考人數275,000人以上。在114年度施政計畫重點方面,除了年度預定舉行的各項考試之外,全部有20次預定舉辦20次36項考試,同時會推動精進國家考試測驗技術相關專案研究,"},{"start":2150.356,"end":2154.525,"text":"擴大辦理用人機關共同宣講來強化人才招募策略"},{"start":2155.762,"end":2181.454,"text":"然後也會強化與教育行政機關的合作連結同時會根據精進國家考試事務的資訊化擴大電腦化測驗適用類科以及加速推動電腦化測驗在113年度預算執行及114年度預算編列情形方面截至10月31日子113年度的稅務預算數576萬元那在10月底是累計收入數567萬7千元"},{"start":2183.695,"end":2188.8,"text":"在稅出預算數是6億1496萬5千元和動資第二預備金,截至10月底已經累計支付4億5937萬7千元,佔累計分配預算數的92.8%。"},{"start":2202.992,"end":2231.205,"text":"在考選業務基金方面總收入預算數是六億兩千七百九十九萬三千元截至十月底執行率達到九十九點八五總支出預算數是五億八千四百二十六萬五千元截至十月底執行率一百零二點四三在一百一十四年度預算編列情形在單位預算編列稅入五七三萬元稅出七億一千兩百七七萬六千元考選基金編列收入六億"},{"start":2232.285,"end":2250.369,"text":"六十七萬八千元支出五億八千九百五十六萬三千元那預計本期剩餘是一千一百一十一萬五千元那以上檢二要報告敬請各位委員繼續給支持指教讓考選業務更正完善好謝謝劉部長接下來請權敘部施能傑部長報告"},{"start":2259.382,"end":2282.459,"text":"主席各位委員長,非常謝謝這個委員會對本部過去的這個指導跟支持今天僅就本部114年度的預算案還有相關的業務以及我們有113年度的結凍案做檢討的一個報告而且我們在今年整個部的一個努力下來我們也送根據這個大院的一個這個"},{"start":2284.58,"end":2305.396,"text":"要求我們送出公務員學會法,送到大院來做審查。我們繼續做最重要的工作,完成了已經完成40幾萬間公務人員的各式各樣的全審案件。我們今年也做了退休公務人員的這個退休所的調整的一個金額,然後我們也調降了這個公保的費率,然後也讓公保的這個給付"},{"start":2306.357,"end":2306.958,"text":"公保準備金收支部分"},{"start":2319.52,"end":2321.221,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部"},{"start":2344.759,"end":2346.721,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支"},{"start":2359.775,"end":2361.716,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":2383.085,"end":2394.753,"text":"做好這個工作至於我們所屬的基金管理局編列了3.3億元的預算基金管理局主要經費並不多我們基金管理局過去"},{"start":2396.609,"end":2397.63,"text":"主管二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位"},{"start":2415.269,"end":2435.957,"text":"因為專戶大概是4.07%這是我們設定的這個預期目標那我們兩個局跟部都有我們部裡面有70萬的這個解凍案那局裡面有50萬的解凍案那事實上這些解凍案我們都已經分別提交這個書面報告那也進行這個貴委員會能夠支持這個解凍案那也謝謝貴委員會過去長期的支持謝謝好 謝謝市部長接下來請保訓會主任委員蔡秀娟報告"},{"start":2450.024,"end":2464.979,"text":"主席各位委員各位先生女士大家好那今天很榮幸呢奉邀到這個列席貴委員會以下就請非常感謝呢各位這個大委員跟大會呢對我們的這個支持以下請就幾項報告跟耳邀跟各位"},{"start":2467.579,"end":2489.924,"text":"113年我們的業務概況基本上有三大項第一項是有關於保障業務的部分那這部分主要在依法審議保障案件確保公務人員救濟權益及機關運作順暢第二部分就是研修安全及衛生防護辦法以在今年的8月12號報送考試院審議第三個部分就是落實各機關辦理公務人員因公社送輔助維護公務人員公法上市財產權"},{"start":2491.264,"end":2497.988,"text":"培訓業務主要依法辦理各項基礎訓練、升官等訓練、集中實務訓練、高階文官發展性訓練、行政中立訓練。113年的預算執行情形保訓會部分目前執行率為88.18,國家文官學院執行率為91.86,到今年12月底為止,我們都能達到應有的執行率。"},{"start":2520.382,"end":2541.055,"text":"接下來跟各位報告本會跟國家文化學院的重要的施政項目在保障的部分我們會持續的來適時檢討與完備保障法制包含保障法安慰辦法跟其他相關的一些能夠對公務人員的保障更加完備而且更加確實的這個相關法制第二部分就是我們會繼續強化這個線上的保障申辦平台"},{"start":2544.577,"end":2554.244,"text":"目前這個平台在附省人的部分透過線上來申辦的有超過七成那機關的部分還需要再持續的加強"},{"start":2554.963,"end":2555.763,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":2580.851,"end":2596.927,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試籍改人員訓練的部分同時我們也會加進很多的AI的實作這是114年目前已經開始做但是希望114年能夠做得更好有關於文化跟人權的相關議題也是我們會持續精進的部分"},{"start":2601.551,"end":2601.691,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":2620.512,"end":2621.192,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部"},{"start":2639.753,"end":2661.811,"text":"好 謝謝機關報告完畢相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10時30分截止發言登記現在請登記第一位的黃委員國昌發言"},{"start":2670.713,"end":2675.999,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":2693.956,"end":2711.946,"text":"我們在2019年透過考試院組織法,大幅縮減考試委員的名額,那個時候我有參與修法。修法的意旨是認為考試院必須要瘦身,以考試院所掌管的業務竟然要19名考試委員,是太誇張了。"},{"start":2713.411,"end":2734.782,"text":"當然最後我們把它3到7到9名實際上面後來的數字大概從2021年以後就穩定考試委員從19名降到9名大概少了10名考試委員只不過說我在追蹤這幾年考試院院本部的預算我其實有陷入一些"},{"start":2736.226,"end":2762.967,"text":"迷惘那個迷惘在於說當初希望考試院能夠受升但實際上面考試院院本部的預算事實上看起來不僅沒有減少如果以今年來比的話實際上面還是增加那增加的錢到底在哪裡?是不是真的有需要花這些錢?我想我在預算提案乃至於後面審議的時候會比較清楚表明我的看法"},{"start":2763.766,"end":2790.741,"text":"今天珍貴的質詢時間我希望放在我們大家所關心的議題上面昨天我針對考試院人事同意權的審查我請教了我們的前考試院的副院長也是院長的備體名人周鴻憲我直接請教他說他贊不贊成在公務人員保障法裡面去處理有關於職場霸凌的事情"},{"start":2792.759,"end":2819.469,"text":"他在整個巡搭的過程當中做出了宣誓他說他如果獲得立法院同意任考試院院長他要研議修法防止職場霸凌那針對周鴻憲被提名人所做出的這個宣誓啊我不曉得在上面的三位是不是都同意是,我們都同意全部都同意嘛那但是啊剛剛秘書長也說你們進入了所謂看守的狀態這個我尊重"},{"start":2821.892,"end":2843.347,"text":"但是我一直在思考的是啊周鴻憲被提名人他說他當院長以後他要開始演藝那因此我昨天詢問他完了以後我就一直在思考說那他當院長當上院長以前之前當副院長的時候到底在做什麼到底在做什麼"},{"start":2844.306,"end":2872.989,"text":"所以我的第一個問題是考試院的院會有沒有針對職場霸凌規範不足這件事情討論過?請教祕書長。呃,更為報告,院會裡面應該才沒有。我想祕書長齁,可能事情多啊,很忙啊。我代祕書長稍微回顧一下。因為我昨天詢問完周鴻憲被提名人啊,我越想越不對啊。"},{"start":2873.923,"end":2890.067,"text":"這件事情怎麼可能等到我們的勞動部出現了這麼誇張的狀況才浮上水面所以我去找了考試院的院會紀錄來請秘書長看一下這個考試院院會你有參與2021年10月14號"},{"start":2896.192,"end":2913.256,"text":"有考試委員問玄敘部對於職場霸凌有沒有相關的因應措施或管理制度請問玄敘部接下來他的補充報告內容是什麼因為啊考試委員這個陳委員謹申應該是考試委員吧他問了"},{"start":2918.7,"end":2934.835,"text":"有沒有相關的應用措施或管理的制度請他補充報告但是我後來查了考試院的院會紀錄有委員提出來要選序部補充報告補充報告在哪裡我找不到顯然這件事情是有浮上水面大家要討論嘛"},{"start":2935.896,"end":2936.957,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部"},{"start":2956.808,"end":2976.344,"text":"這個月會紀錄我看過了你沒有必要複述現在我的問題是請問補充報告在哪裡因為後來在全區部提出的考機法修正的草案裡面也有把這個概念納入那只是這個草案我先問一下我先停一下所以你所說的相關應應措施或管理制度指的就是考機法嗎"},{"start":2977.526,"end":3001.602,"text":"是嗎?不只,但是因為全序部的部分他是跟考機法有關所以這個案子因為當時在院會應該是報告案所以有委員的發言記錄沒有關係啊請你回去查事後全序部所提出來的補充報告是什麼有就書面回覆給我沒有就回答兩個字就好沒有"},{"start":3002.847,"end":3029.937,"text":"不是只有2021年到2023年考試院院會再度的去處理了有關於職場霸凌要求保訓會要強化預防措施請問事後保訓會強化了什麼預防措施在保訓會這邊安慰辦法的部分是有一直在研修我知道研修了10年我昨天已經問過了周鴻憲"},{"start":3032.085,"end":3050.85,"text":"對於研修10年這件事情他很遺憾也覺得非常的抱歉但我的問題很簡單2023年考試院院會又問了這件事情第二次扶上院會的檯面要求保訓會要去針對職場霸凌強化預防措施請問強化的預防措施是什麼"},{"start":3056.611,"end":3080.309,"text":"安慰辦法在今年這個保訓會今年8月安慰辦法有針對職場霸凌強化預防措施嗎?有嗎?這個部分的確是做得並沒有很明確所以如昨天委員的所以這個就是我講的嘛考試院過去這幾年喔可能跟秘書長記憶不太一樣"},{"start":3082.711,"end":3084.899,"text":"在考試院院會的確針對這件事情兩次"},{"start":3088.598,"end":3117.524,"text":"要求要處理一個是請全序部一個是請保訓會我今天請部長跟保訓會的主委上來不是要責怪你們因為我知道當時你們都還沒有就任現在的職務嘛但是如果現在是在所謂的看守期間的話以前該做沒有做的事情我們的帳就要算清楚我們的帳就要算清楚讓全體的國人知道"},{"start":3118.524,"end":3144.443,"text":"考試院過去不是沒有研議討論過這件事啊但問題是什麼問題是即使提到了考試院院會討論後續啊毫無作為就四個字毫無作為等到周鴻憲要再度被提名當考試院院長的時候才在院會宣誓啊說他要修法他要強化"},{"start":3145.979,"end":3168.976,"text":"幾年的時間過去啦幾年的時間過去啦而這些院會秘書長您都有參與還不只這樣2023年考試院人權保障工作小組針對有關於職場霸凌的事情對於我們的公務員提出申訴結果他的主管機關處理"},{"start":3171.172,"end":3200.262,"text":"沒有處理好他們向保訓會提出再申訴結果保訓會在30個案件裡面駁回28件這個數字不會錯啦因為這個是在你們考試院及所屬部會人權保障工作小組24次會議只是我看這個會議記錄我其實有一點感慨因為我不曉得考試院對這個會議重不重視請假的請假找人代理的代理"},{"start":3201.515,"end":3227.771,"text":"稍後保訓會對於所謂的職場霸凌他們說沒有明確的法律規範定義他們要從個案當中去進行持續性的研究要去進行歸納分析建立未來審議的基準來請教一下秘書長保訓會後來做了什麼樣子的歸納分析"},{"start":3230.365,"end":3249.604,"text":"這個我不是很了解那個新任的主委您了解嗎跟委員報告齁這個部分我不是很清楚不過呢在我們我先停一下你說你不是很清楚是當初工作交接沒有交接好是不是這個有關於這個駁回的這個部分呢不是啦"},{"start":3250.365,"end":3268.082,"text":"我說後續的歸納分析結果如何博回的部分32個案子博回28件我當然沒時間在這邊一件一件跟你對嘛是你們在上面說要做歸納分析嘛但我找了半天我找不到歸納分析的結果所以我請教你們"},{"start":3268.502,"end":3297.61,"text":"公務員報告後面的歸納分析呢我們有在進行但是因為他每個檯樣都不一樣不好意思喔是持續在進行還是有做過分析過有在持續進行而且呢我們在我們在做這個會議結論的時候是2023年的6月26號嘛是現在是2024年的11月了吧是那請問這個歸納分析到目前為止有沒有任何的記錄或是任何的報告"},{"start":3298.65,"end":3304.697,"text":"目前還沒有到目前都還沒有那所謂的歸納分析是怎麼在做的?有開過會嗎?"},{"start":3306.718,"end":3307.699,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":3330.49,"end":3356.463,"text":"跟委員報告我們會在這個下個會期之前並同保障以法跟安慰辦法一起如果委員覺得這樣時間太長了我們會在今年底結束的時候所有的部分盡可能把它分析完不是我覺不覺得這個時間太長啦今天我們在這邊詢答的過程全部的公民都可以看啦我們的考試院"},{"start":3357.643,"end":3383.375,"text":"人權保障工作小組6月26號要求保訓會做歸納分析搞到2024年的11月沒有會議紀錄沒有書面資料只有抽象的在持續的歸納分析搞了一年多什麼都沒有還要再半年結果才會出來是我覺得太慢還是大家都覺得太慢"},{"start":3384.255,"end":3411.67,"text":"每個公民心裡有一把尺但在這邊我只希望新上任的主委因為我知道你新上任我也沒有要為難你你9月1號才上任嘛前面的人事情沒做好把鍋拐到你身上這不公平嘛但是我要拜託新任的主委加速辦理搞了一年多啊什麼都沒有啊人民會失望啊人民會失望啊"},{"start":3413.061,"end":3426.266,"text":"這些問題我相信在這個會期處理預算的時候都應該要具體的反映在每一個委員的預算提案上混成這樣太離譜了謝謝謝謝黃委員謝謝三位秘書長跟兩位部長和諸位接下來請陳委員敬語發言"},{"start":3455.575,"end":3459.158,"text":"由於我們這個考試院的這個院長跟副院長還有相關的委員目前都還在這個審查過程"},{"start":3472.762,"end":3478.055,"text":"那院會未能如往常一樣正常的來召開相關的會議"},{"start":3479.379,"end":3504.905,"text":"導致我們考試院只能迫於採取權宜措施,盡可能維持相關業務正常的推動。也就是如同在書面報告的結語裡面所說的,考試院現階段仍然是處於看守的一個狀態。不管是重大的政策或是法案的審查,都得等到新的委員上任之後才能夠繼續來推動。"},{"start":3506.565,"end":3528.911,"text":"所以今天我想先就考試院相關的業務的辦理情形來就教我們祕書長從過去幾年的這個時間我們看到報考公職的人數有逐年下滑的趨勢但是在今年高考的實施規模減病考科減輕考生的應考的負擔之後我們看到"},{"start":3529.966,"end":3534.311,"text":"主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":3544.465,"end":3562.754,"text":"推斷上面應該覺得這個是有效果的因為從了解考生的反應也認為說因為檢考兩科專業科目的確大幅減輕了相關的負擔好那未來我們其他的這種考試是否都會朝向減少這個考科的這個方向來"},{"start":3563.234,"end":3580.835,"text":"我們從高普考開始推動起,陸續擴展到包含地方特考、離島特考等等。其他部分的特考應該是包含外交跟國際經貿人員等等,還有原住民跟身障特考都是。"},{"start":3581.716,"end":3603.416,"text":"都是檢科的方向我昨天在詢問許副院長被提名人的時候對於公職對年輕人失去吸引力的主要原因來做探討尤其是逆世代的年輕人因為對於工作條件的選擇以及注重的價值不同"},{"start":3604.396,"end":3607.218,"text":"考試院應該如何提高1990年以後出生的歷史代報考意願?"},{"start":3620.868,"end":3621.368,"text":"公務部部門的體質會有所不和。"},{"start":3644.145,"end":3660.39,"text":"因此,我們要改善公部門管理及內部制度,讓公部門運作不會令年輕人難以適應。另外一方面,從考試院這邊,從考試端,我們要加強去宣導,"},{"start":3661.25,"end":3681.597,"text":"除了其實一方面的宣導的效果可能一方面也是在於說讓年輕人更了解公職這份意義我想現在年輕人都很清楚公務員絕對不是大家以前想像的輕鬆或單純或沒有挑戰性的工作也許就是因為看到了民主化之後的各種挑戰但是也因為他因此而可能帶來一些成就感"},{"start":3682.157,"end":3694.536,"text":"我們希望是讓更適合更有更能夠掌握這份工作價值的年輕人更了解公職工作願意投入所以這個宣導是有意義的而不是只是坐在那邊等著考生自動報名"},{"start":3696.86,"end":3715.42,"text":"因為缺工的問題特別是我們台灣現在各行各業各行各業都非常的嚴重面臨這種缺工的問題公司部門之間都在搶人才尤其高普考近年來不足的這種人數以及比率都上升了"},{"start":3716.081,"end":3742.66,"text":"部分的這個類科缺額較多包括這個土木工程、水力工程還有機械工程及技術類科那不足額的這種情況明顯以外除了先前考選部所提出包括這個檢討命題以及這個給分標準的改善方向以外秘書長認為我們在這個技術類科錄取不足額"},{"start":3743.76,"end":3765.856,"text":"難引進人才的這種問題我們應該要如何來改善?這可能就要跨院跨部會一起來努力啦我跟委員報告像這個不足額的部分其實集中在少部分的類科那我們觀察到比如我們以土木工程這幾年的狀況來講大家看到的是不足額的數量一直都這兩年一直都有不足額一百多人的問題"},{"start":3766.877,"end":3794.166,"text":"但是大家可能比較沒有注意到是需求端其實不斷在增加這三年來土木工程的相關在應該是高考裡面的缺額每年增加一兩百人所以考入取人數也持續在增加但是我們入取人數一直在追但追不上需用人數的增加所以它可能有一部分是在於用人端是不是有流失的問題所以這個部分過去"},{"start":3795.506,"end":3810.98,"text":"考試院跟考選部跟相關部會有一個考訓用的平台來協調所以有幾年這個狀況有改善但這兩年看起來比較嚴重所以我們剛剛我跟劉部長在討論我們未來可能要重啟這個平台來跟用人端一起來解決相關的問題"},{"start":3811.786,"end":3826.194,"text":"好那這部分再請我們秘書長跟部長這邊再去多加協調那過去這幾年考選部都有編列一筆預算來辦理這個預備文官團的相關研習活動希望能夠借鏡新加坡"},{"start":3826.934,"end":3852.392,"text":"提早培養文官的這種做法來增加年輕人應考的公職人員的這種人數但是我們這個預備文官團的計畫似乎好像在去年就停下來沒有看到今年有任何辦理的相關消息那我想請問秘書長未來我們預備文官團是否不再辦理了或是還是我們有其他的這種替代方案有在這個辦理當中"},{"start":3854.246,"end":3855.331,"text":"我是不是讓劉部長來說明比較清楚"},{"start":3860.019,"end":3882.764,"text":"委員好,預備文官團是一個非常好的理念考選部也應該積極參與人才招募不過我們檢討之後發現在青年署這邊本來就有一個青年公部門的見習其實我們比較好是跟他結合因為他的量體到達450到600人一年比起我們原先預備文官團"},{"start":3884.324,"end":3887.907,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":3913.486,"end":3937.615,"text":"另外昨天我有詢問副院長貝提名人有關如何加速國家考試的數月轉型他說新世代對於科技應用能力比較強年輕人用手寫會比較困難如果用符合習慣資訊化的方式來處理或許能夠降低考試的障礙"},{"start":3939.581,"end":3957.917,"text":"包括過去我們僅有6000個電腦座位目前已經增加到16000台左右但對於舉辦大型的這種考試還是相對不足可能要把這種筆記型的電腦納入我想請問秘書長或是部長對於明年"},{"start":3959.158,"end":3965.82,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":3986.327,"end":4010.826,"text":"這中間的電力不能有任何的狀況發生那我們這個就要牽涉到所謂UPS再加上發電機的類似的方案那整個學校的基建設備都要檢視過那我們希望可以在115到116的時候把前端的準備工作都做好然後來推進到因為深論體是一個比較高風險的地方但是我們大概可以再經過114、115年的整備讓它逐步的上路以上"},{"start":4011.226,"end":4040.34,"text":"好,那我們現在有沒有設定那個未來可能增加電腦數的一個目標目前的話我們大概最終的目標是希望能夠把護理的考試都拿進來那護理的考試目前大概會到達一萬四到一萬五中間但是我們不能光是正好的座位數因為會有區域不同另外要留備員的數目在那裡所以我們希望大概可以達到一萬八左右但是我們希望在區域可以更加的平衡"},{"start":4041.143,"end":4042.511,"text":"這是我們現在努力的方向 以上"},{"start":4044.386,"end":4072.019,"text":"這個有關我們國家考試的這種數位轉型在我們事務資訊當中我們點示人口網的建置進度根據政府採購網的相關資料考選部投入將近1500萬委外建置的相關經費並且依這個標案上的履約規定應該在下週12月3號之前就能夠建置完成那我想請教祕書長那典型入口網建置的這種進度預計何時能夠上線使用"},{"start":4074.784,"end":4089.435,"text":"那是不是我們再把相關的資料提供給委員他有再按照進度進行那這部分就會後給我資料那我們接下來這種典事委員的遴選命題還有這個改考卷是不是就會全部走向資訊化"},{"start":4091.569,"end":4116.998,"text":"這個還沒有辦法一步到位因為要牽涉到前端要把所有的試卷也要全部的予以那個數位化他才能進行數位化的月卷那目前我們大概還沒有到這個程度那這是我們接下來要努力的目標就是要至少能夠確定或盡量努力讓我們所有的第一步先做到所有的試卷可以數位化進入然後我們再用月卷系統來控它"},{"start":4117.638,"end":4119.039,"text":"以上大概是我們接下來的方向"},{"start":4143.066,"end":4145.187,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝秘書長和部長接下來有請吳思堯委員發言好 謝謝主席 有請秘書長也請你跟施部長請施部長"},{"start":4173.166,"end":4175.227,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":4197.637,"end":4213.166,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":4213.446,"end":4233.741,"text":"昨天院長被提名人周前副院長也做了宣誓我想這件事情在這幾天得到非常多委員的關心我們也必須承認過去在法制面上的確有不足之處所以有這樣的宣誓我跟司部長和蔡主委上個禮拜也有討論到這個部分可以先著手展開演繹"},{"start":4234.401,"end":4235.482,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":4251.175,"end":4278.646,"text":"公務體系優先來增加新一類的心理健康假或是叫身心調適假然後也獲得周院長正面的一個肯定那相關的作業包括人事總處其實都同意就之前我所收集的長期追蹤的結果是全序部有一些不同的意見那我想現在我想再次來確認你們的立場就昨天周"},{"start":4279.727,"end":4280.828,"text":"主管總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部主管總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":4308.483,"end":4328.659,"text":"請問你們的具體作業明年上路可以嗎?是要請秘書長還是部長?是要請秘書長還是部長?是要請秘書長還是部長?是要請秘書長還是部長?是要請秘書長還是部長?是要請秘書長還是部長?是要請秘書長還是部長?是要請秘書長還是部長?是要請秘書長還是部長?是要請秘書長還是部長?是要請秘書長還是部長?是要請秘書長還是部長?是要請秘書長還是部長?是要請秘書長還是部長?是要請秘書長還是部長?是要請秘書長還是部長?是要請秘書長還是部長?是要請秘書長還是部長?是要請秘書長還是部長?"},{"start":4336.365,"end":4346.413,"text":"各第一線非常多的機關一起討論這個議題那些意見代表的是第一線作業同仁的看法那你同意這些意見嗎?我們經過反除經過審思嘛對我想這個議題被聽們有這樣提我想我們會再跟"},{"start":4356.302,"end":4374.194,"text":"因為這個應該修請假規則那請假規則是兩院必須要會選那所以這個部分到底如果真的要推這個要怎麼推法包括是要單獨的價或者是給新價或者不給新價或者總的價格在這裡面通通在不變動的價我個人認為以變動最小總體價別裡頭來include一個新的價別不要做太大的一個聯動這當然會有利於我們身心調適價的上路"},{"start":4386.701,"end":4409.59,"text":"應該應該應該我跟委員照這樣一個報告我知道總處那邊因為這真的適用整個都在行政院體系是最大適用的事實上我也當過那邊的人事長我也了解現場的一個狀況所以我跟委員報告是這個事情我想大家都關心這個事情他有兩方面來關心一方面當然是價值一個方面但是我的實務經驗告訴我說其實最重要的是我們沒有真正的預算捏"},{"start":4411.142,"end":4412.843,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部"},{"start":4429.396,"end":4445.602,"text":"現在是一個關鍵的時刻在總統也成立了總統府的三大委員會其中一個就是健康台灣你們可以去follow健康台灣的下一次會議當中很重要的議程也就是心理健康所以國家在各項的制度的精進預算的投入"},{"start":4447.144,"end":4458.959,"text":"稍後會有關鍵時刻可以一起演繹。我希望全序部的同仁大家能夠站在正面的角度我們一起克服這個困難。我們就來努力。我也跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":4461.215,"end":4478.94,"text":"全局部不斷接受到各個委員各式各樣提案要多有些價不光是這個價所以我覺得請假規則修正這還涉及地方我們一定會跟總處那邊好好一起來討論這個事情不要把簡單的問題複雜化其他委員提案什麼價正當性如何合理性如何"},{"start":4479.38,"end":4483.524,"text":"主管收支部分關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分"},{"start":4495.851,"end":4522.032,"text":"不要讓我對於您的回答不太滿意。我們就正向的來克服好嗎?心理健康非常重要。好,謝謝。部長請回,請秘書長下一個。我今天的主題其實是針對永續政策。考試院不應當是永續政策的outside。我們退府基金的投資也要來落實SDGs的精神下一頁。"},{"start":4522.913,"end":4541.231,"text":"首先呢總統的三大對策委員會其中一個是氣候變遷我們要全國一起來推動第二次的能源轉型強化我們的氣候行動也要重新來設定2032年2035年的減碳新目標考試院能做什麼呢下一頁"},{"start":4542.455,"end":4569.571,"text":"各個部會我們2020年的時候行政院就已經責成二級機關跟所屬所有的地方政府所以是29個二級機關跟22個地方政府都進行永續發展的自願檢視報告書行政部門所屬都做了地方政府也跟進了唯獨我們的憲政機關就是考試院並沒有做下一頁"},{"start":4571.226,"end":4597.199,"text":"政府、各大學、民間企業也都跟上國際永續的行動所以都成立了各該機關的永續推動委員會我過去在教育文化領域我督促各個大學成立永續發展推動委員會甚至都upgrade到校長或副院長來作為召集人所以考試院沒有道理是outsider下一頁"},{"start":4598.786,"end":4627.29,"text":"中研院它隸屬於總統府但是中研院過去也曾經是OutSider但是在我的要求之下中研院的廖俊志院長2022年在我督促2023年也加入了來推出永續報告書也加入了這個集體的行動下頁不只考試院自己機關包括我們的基金勞動基金"},{"start":4629.522,"end":4641.869,"text":"由政基金、由政儲金現在都有永續報告書我手上帶著這一本就是勞動基金的所以說獨缺我們的退府基金喔下一頁"},{"start":4643.343,"end":4668.862,"text":"來我先停在這裡所以是不是可以針對我們考試院的永續報告不管是從自願檢視的報告書開始做起或是我們機關內部來成立永續的推動委員會由秘書長來主責也好你們願意跟進嗎是委員先跟您報告這個應該不是完全沒有是不是我請局長這邊先說明一下我們現在院有什麼樣的永續推動委員會誰來主責"},{"start":4672.72,"end":4681.217,"text":"報告委員其實在我們局裡面有成立一個永續投資推動小組其實我們非常關注這是投資但是願的自願檢測有沒有要做"},{"start":4682.315,"end":4684.436,"text":"我們今年突破一兆投資金額高達8286億不管是委託經營股票或債券投入下一頁"},{"start":4710.005,"end":4726.055,"text":"我跟民間的很多團體他們都來跟我反映現在的四大基金剛剛講的郵政儲金也好或者是我們的這個勞動基金也好都有揭露了他們的氣候相關的投資就是退府基金沒有"},{"start":4726.815,"end":4746.686,"text":"而以2022年我們國家四大基金的前十大國內投資的碳足跡的調查退輔基金居然是最高比例的。換言之國家變相的投資高碳產業嗎?我先講完您稍後回覆喔下一頁"},{"start":4748.376,"end":4771.493,"text":"看國際的經驗挪威主權基金我們常常在講的挪威主權基金不管是要求對於淨零碳排相關事業的投資也進行了自身的氣候風險評估要跟上巴黎協定還包括對於一些高碳產業的撤資行動2016年開始挪威的主權基金已經從84家電力或者是礦業"},{"start":4772.594,"end":4795.419,"text":"高耗能的產業來撤資了韓國的經驗我想你們也可以借鏡韓國的國家退休金的投資強化ESG的鏈結下一頁所以說TCFD國內各金控也在綠色金融的裡頭都已經揭露了氣候相關的財務的投資就是退府基金沒有啊我後面還有PPT嗎來最後"},{"start":4797.413,"end":4807.108,"text":"經管會也給你們一個計算的指引別人可以我們也應當做得到我們是基金的龍頭好請統一來回覆要不要來跟上"},{"start":4808.793,"end":4834.518,"text":"是,謝謝委員的提醒那其實我們剛剛跟委員報告的我們永續投資推動小組就是在做件事情其實我們也加入了吉保公司的投資人關係整個平台那我們預計在明年就會揭露我們的財務碳排放的資訊那相關的包括我們的投資的碳排放的密度還有我們主要的投資的一些所以氣候風險評估"},{"start":4836.318,"end":4851.606,"text":"我們明年就會上路來公開揭露。對,我們會揭露在我們的淨值治理報告裡面。那除了揭露,揭露是第一步。對於不管是撤資,不管撤除投資,或者是其他的事項,我認為我們都可以更全方位的來實踐永續的行動,好嗎?"},{"start":4854.287,"end":4880.291,"text":"所以這一本我希望我下一次站上質詢台我可以拿到退府基金的永續報告書針對它的治理策略風險的管理跟設定的目標都能夠做到我認為考試院一定做得到所以今天我們的永續報告書我希望明年就能夠加入然後我們在退府基金的投資也都跟上國家永續的這不是國家國際永續的行列好嗎我們一起努力好謝謝好謝謝吳思堯委員的質詢"},{"start":4885.336,"end":4914.535,"text":"那我們請下一位質詢,我們鍾嘉斌召委。主席,在場的委員先進,列席的政府機關首長、官員會長、公眾夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請我們考選部劉部長、權敘部施部長以及保訓會的蔡主委。"},{"start":4915.779,"end":4917.254,"text":"好請我們部長跟隨委員長"},{"start":4919.534,"end":4949.234,"text":"首先請教劉部長我今天在問說國考進化打字答題計算機要升級啊那我們現在公文電子化而且呢已經有輔助工具那麼在2022年的3月3號你們宣布說從去年開始15項特考不再考公文是不是這樣子是沒有錯嘛那你們說目前的公文僅憑良單一公文格式有所侷限散打均有相關的程式所以呢參考範例就可以了"},{"start":4949.734,"end":4954.316,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":4974.204,"end":4999.18,"text":"跟那個委員報告這最主要的是我們要處理的是你剛講過了我就不再重述那什麼時候可以實施我希望是在115到116左右115到116好那我們來看一下如果說全面性的做你們有擔心那其實有一個部分司法人員考試啊他是大概是深論題占比最高的是不是這樣是那深論題你用手寫跟打字就不太一樣嘛是"},{"start":4999.74,"end":5027.722,"text":"所以呢有沒有考慮過司法考試的生論題轉型為電腦化測驗的設備需求先推動在114年先推動上路跟委員報告我們希望是在115到116但我的目標的確就是思慮那原因很簡單因為我們需要確定的還是說我瞭解你剛剛說的我都聽到了那這個話我們需要建立一批核心市場也就是我們要一批核心市場所以我的意思就是說你要全面推動之前有沒有先找哪一個國考的項目"},{"start":5028.302,"end":5029.022,"text":"司法官律師律師律師律師律師律"},{"start":5050.373,"end":5051.073,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":5066.468,"end":5084.356,"text":"需要時間鋪陳每年度的預算規劃如何?好不好?接下來我們往下看那另外國考認可的計算機工程類科的剛剛有問到土木工程人越來越少了剛剛劉秉桑有回答到那現在你知道嗎?你們已經通過檢討可以允許考生用的計算機都不生產了"},{"start":5085.816,"end":5097.399,"text":"那新的,經過你們認可的那個計算機,你們什麼時候會公布?跟委員報告確定這個會議已經開完了。那這也是我上來之後就要求趕快把這個會議開完。什麼預計什麼時候公告?114年。明年就可以?114年開始受理,我們會讓計算機的那個廠商開始受理。所以明年還是用舊型的計算機?"},{"start":5115.521,"end":5138.981,"text":"所以要趕快通知考生啊,舊的計算機不要丟掉啊,有舊的計算機要交接啊我知道啊,但是有的已經不生產啦現在我要考試啊,我不只要交接,我要買,買不到啊我要跟原來的考生交接計算機啊,有沒有做個準備啊跟考生說,像我們以前大學畢業,不會有人去買那個學士服啊,交接的啊"},{"start":5143.257,"end":5144.258,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":5170.689,"end":5189.334,"text":"公務員服務法工作時數上限每月60小時行政院實施辦法扶勤如果急迫或人力臨時調度有困難,就會突破上限到每天12至14小時。接下來,特殊動態專案可以提升到"},{"start":5190.254,"end":5192.195,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":5206.179,"end":5206.74,"text":"每個月加班80小時已經到達過勞的認定標準"},{"start":5224.579,"end":5248.031,"text":"並發病前兩到六個月內任何一個月的工作時間超過八十小時就可判斷工作負荷跟發病有極相關的、極強的關聯性。意思說如果按照行政院他為了應付緊急的任務,三個月內給你兩百四十個小時,有可能單月超過八十小時。怎麼辦?基於對公務人員他的身心保護,您覺得行政院自己的這個專案認定跟執行局的規定,"},{"start":5249.051,"end":5263.144,"text":"考試院站在保障我們公務人員的健康你有什麼辦法?有沒有辦法透過說如果這個專案合定了你在某個月超過80個小時會提供要求提供額外的健檢追蹤或補修來提供喘息?我跟委員報告因為"},{"start":5264.205,"end":5290.386,"text":"政府部門,我想行政院會這樣訂一定,譬如像說我們有些...有需要嘛,救災啦什麼的啦,真的會有這個狀況,所以有一些彈性使用啦,所以在這個彈性使用之下,如果真的有這個事情,我相信行政院應該會督導各部會要怎麼樣去拿捏這個,雖然我們不是用職安法啦,因為公務人員有些不是用職安法,因為大家都關心適用公務員保障人他們的一個健康,所以希望考試院在這個部分,"},{"start":5290.926,"end":5293.608,"text":"關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分"},{"start":5315.951,"end":5337.847,"text":"主管及基層公務員保障法及安慰辦法的不足目前公務員保障法當中第19、20、21、2219是我們安全、衛生及防護的法源20條他後來甚至成為公務員他的退避權消防員退避權危險他可以離開另外21條公務員如果遭受不法侵害有國賠的一個"},{"start":5339.228,"end":5341.33,"text":"收支部分關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分"},{"start":5362.566,"end":5376.882,"text":"是這個嗎?安慰辦法這是人總訂的,你們是參考這個嗎?欸不是這不是,這是人總訂的那如果違反安慰辦法或這個霸凌防治處理SOP的後果可以處罰嗎?如果你來看人總訂的,或者說原來的安慰辦法"},{"start":5377.903,"end":5403.212,"text":"有沒有罰則目前是沒有罰則但是在保障法的第一條有提到就是說如果說本法沒有規定的適用其他的相關法規但是那個的確像委員所提到的不管目前在保障法或安慰辦法並沒有明確的去指出可以適用哪些法規這是我們法制上的不足所以甚至連人種定的SOP他都不能確保落實這個部分是不是這樣"},{"start":5404.097,"end":5425.681,"text":"對,但是如果機關他的調查結果那這個去提升再申訴的人他不服他可以到保障尋這個救濟到保訓會來我們來看一看救濟哪些來下一頁先我們看看這個公務員當中有主管跟他的部屬的基層公有互動基層人員他要執行公權利對人民要服務人民"},{"start":5426.28,"end":5444.662,"text":"但是遇到人民對他不管是人身威脅或是他執行的勤務有環境危害的時候我們會去保護他但是他對他的喪失還有服從的義務但是我們國家給他身份的保障所以他不可能任意被主管開除但是因為這樣的關係主管會怎麼樣用考機來指揮監督他"},{"start":5446.099,"end":5470.638,"text":"不能開除他的情況之下,他除了考機就變成我們基層公務員他的一個精神壓力來源同時也是這個主管區測他的部署要服從,是不是一個主要的來自考機法除了考機法以外呢,還有包含可能他平常對他的工作指派啊,他的態度啊但是這些的後盾就是考機法嘛,如果你不聽話,你不認真,我就給你考慮以等平等,是不是這樣子"},{"start":5471.346,"end":5494.268,"text":"還有包含吊刃啊等等還有吊刃對但是主管本身他也受身份保障啊如果主管呢因為霸凌被沒有完整程序的給他免職那可能他會來尋求救濟那可是考機裡面對於主管的職場管理有不當對待的時候有沒有考機法可以對這個主管來予以懲處有沒有這個可能好來我們來看看考機法來"},{"start":5495.486,"end":5514.669,"text":"我跟委員報告,考機法是適用所有的同仁是,所以說考機法當中有對於我不服從上司指揮要考慮我一等那但是我的主管如果對我不當對待要怎麼辦上對下的下要服從可是上對下不合理的管理不當對待我怎麼處理下一頁"},{"start":5517.13,"end":5544.943,"text":"我們在2021年是不是送考試院審議?今年二月說還要再修正那目前你們修正了第11條受考記人在考記年度有具體施政主任有其他情形要再改善曾經對他人為職場霸凌不管是上對下或平行的情形嚴重目前草案進入如何?何時可以提出?這個草案已經送到考試院去了那當初這個草案進入考記法涉及的面向非常非常多的題目所以這只是其中一環所以那考試院當然其他部分還有更多的爭議"},{"start":5545.683,"end":5548.465,"text":"最後結論時間的關係第一拜託我們劉部長配合我們國考電腦化測試的期程在一個月內提出各年度的預算規劃及新增的考試計算機的種類可以嗎一個月內喔"},{"start":5571.946,"end":5582.994,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":5614.026,"end":5630.24,"text":"主席,我們先請全序部請部長市長好市長好今天我首先利用這個機會來跟部長來探討一個問題我們從今年7月1號開始我們出任公教人員個人專戶制的退服制度開始採行"},{"start":5643.437,"end":5670.319,"text":"我在今年3月13日在委員會的詢答那時候我特別有請我們的全序部就這個目前這個退府儲金我們要採的相關的這些問題提出一些詢問那在3月的時候我那時候問到說我們目前退府儲金的參與的人數跟它的規模"},{"start":5671.789,"end":5679.479,"text":"那個時候3月的時候大概是8000多人那時候的規模大概是6億那請問部長現在目前的參與人數跟他的規模大概是怎麼樣現在參與人數大概是23000多人"},{"start":5688.922,"end":5690.102,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":5713.854,"end":5736.985,"text":"那因為這個我們接下來12月還有這個普考跟這個蒂特這些考試所以他還會再有新的這個?高普考有些是已經分發進來有些等到明年分發蒂特當然會慢慢再進來簡單講未來一定是每年這個人數跟金額那我們到今年年底我們預估有沒有預估?有預估嗎?"},{"start":5738.968,"end":5751.914,"text":"當年給預估大概兩萬五千人左右因為我們也有辦理這些新制的這些說明教育說明但是這些新進人員我們有針對這些陸續進來的新進人員有再繼續辦理這樣子相關的"},{"start":5758.649,"end":5776.523,"text":"的這個心智的說明跟教育嗎?我跟委員報告其實我大概上來以後我也跟局長好好討論這個事情我們窮盡所有可能的手段一定要讓我們明年要做的一些事情讓心境同仁能夠了解然後我們也跟行政院那邊來合作就因為透過行政院體系的人事體系"},{"start":5777.604,"end":5781.485,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":5805.188,"end":5806.135,"text":"自己選的?從什麼時候開始測試?"},{"start":5809.106,"end":5836.519,"text":"從10月1號就已經開放10月1號還是11月10月1號10月1號開始開放這個平台來測試了齁那目前測試的這個進度跟這個我跟委員報告是10月1號已經開始使用了不是測試等之前我們已經測試完成10月1號就開放同仁開始進來上去選田了我們給他一段時間嘛因為明年1月1號開始上路所以現在開始已經可以使用了對不對10月1號開始"},{"start":5840.32,"end":5856.696,"text":"11月1日11月1日11月1日我們就開始開放這個平台的使用目前這個使用運作上面我們的這個測試的進度跟我們有沒有掌握目前在運作上面有沒有什麼缺失我請局長說明"},{"start":5857.896,"end":5880.187,"text":"司法委員其實我們11月1號就已經開放我們所有新進的公教人員可以上這個平台去選擇他未來的自主投資他要積極或穩健或保守那我們目前是有發個函是希望我們所有的新進的公教人員在12月10號以前就可以決定他明年所需要的投資組合分目前使用上面有沒有什麼樣的回饋目前並沒有任何的困難"},{"start":5885.29,"end":5886.031,"text":"目前是還沒有接到什麼運作部分。"},{"start":5901.535,"end":5927.03,"text":"這個尋答的時候個人有特別請全序部要針對我們公教人員個人專戶的這個退府儲金自主投資跟代為投資的運用要提出實施計畫那我看你們在7月18你們把這個實施計畫有提出來有提出這個有關公教人員個人專戶退府儲金自主投資或及這個代為投資的運用實施計畫那所以我就"},{"start":5928.511,"end":5930.314,"text":"接下來就跟部長來探討實施計畫裡面的一些內容。"},{"start":5938.527,"end":5960.826,"text":"我看你們齁有關於這個公教人員個人專戶退府儲金風險屬性的評估齁你們在這裡面有提到這個風險屬性評估那風險屬性評估我現在看到了你們在就是有一份問卷啦齁我看到一份問卷表就現在如這邊所示的這個問卷表啦齁那這個我們這個"},{"start":5963.39,"end":5972.847,"text":"這個問卷我們有沒有會定期的來調整問卷的內容或者是問卷的內容是不是能夠確保反映最新的市場投資跟投資人的需求"},{"start":5974.87,"end":5996.647,"text":"報告委員那這個問卷風水屬性問卷那種是經過我們一個投資決策小組所有的包括外面專家的跟學者的一些共同決定出來的那這部分其實是我們公交人員可以隨時去評估自己的狀況因為一般的民間的投資平台他也有做這種他在KYC他們也都有做這樣子的問卷"},{"start":5997.779,"end":6008.307,"text":"但他們這個問卷他們大概會在很短的時間他們會一直不斷的更新不斷的去這個檢討更新這個問卷的內容那我現在就是要請你們說在這個經過小規模測試以後我們目前我們還是要定期的去驗證這個問卷的有效性那我們能夠再做定期的檢討跟更新的好不好謝謝委員指教我想這個明天都是這樣做我們也會定期來看看因為這雖然都是最基本的經過專家討論"},{"start":6026.181,"end":6038.336,"text":"我想定期還是可以再檢視說有沒有需要做這個問題的再做一些更新或補充。好那我接下來我們看你們的這個相關有關於這個相關的這個預算因為今天這個預算審查"},{"start":6043.843,"end":6065.831,"text":"那這個你們有關於這個相關的投資平台的預算齁你們在我看到全序部所編列的有關宣導自主投資平台的預算大概只有四百四百九十四百九十三萬對不對大部分我看大部分的這個這個有關退伏基金有關這個這個這個"},{"start":6068.663,"end":6088.115,"text":"大部分的編列在我們退府基金管理局裡面。退府基金管理局裡面我們編列了多少一億三千六百萬有關於這個自主投資平台的相關預算有一億三千六百萬那這個"},{"start":6092.128,"end":6107.201,"text":"我看到你們的實施計畫裡面齁你們包括這個管理局齁你們有有這個定期考核投資顧問定期檢視各個投資標的並定期公告這個定期到底是定多久的期有沒有你們有沒有"},{"start":6109.91,"end":6124.105,"text":"報告委員我們原則上每個月都會公告我們所有自主投資的各個組合的投資每個月公告一次喔每個月會公告我先是要了解說因為你們都寫定期定期我要了解說這個定期到底是多久啦齁那我看你們目前所辦的這個這個"},{"start":6126.978,"end":6142.193,"text":"這個宣導的辦理的場次齁你們說在北中南東共舉辦了24場實體教育宣導跟兩場的線上宣導啦齁兩場線上宣導那在這個部分齁我還是希望說例如說你們北中南東"},{"start":6143.254,"end":6161.147,"text":"像我們現在目前大都會區桃園就沒有包括在內啦齁那另外外島的部分我想也必須更需要加強的教育宣導啦齁所以這部分我希望說你們能夠能夠加以補足啦好不好好那我們部長就就請接著我們請秘書長好不好秘書長委員長秘書長早齁"},{"start":6168.94,"end":6196.859,"text":"因為我們的考試委員到今年8月底就任滿了所以這個9月1號開始我們現在目前考試院是進入看守期那這個這個看守期齁我看你們所這個考試院你們所發布的新聞稿表示說目前我們在看守期間目前已暫停法案審查作業及重大政策的決定對不對"},{"start":6198.976,"end":6214.609,"text":"那這個這個我們就這個事實上進入看守期我們在因為之前我們這個考試委員的這個人事同意權一直沒有進行審查也一直沒有進行處理啦齁所以在這個看守我們事實上"},{"start":6215.973,"end":6240.336,"text":"就考試而言有很多部分依法法定上面會遇到困難雖然我們之前有一些權宜措施提早的把這個今年一部分考試的典事委員有做的處理對不對那接下來假設這一次的人事同意權沒有通過會有什麼樣的影響"},{"start":6241.633,"end":6243.556,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":6259.669,"end":6266.474,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部主管收支部分關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分"},{"start":6281.909,"end":6303.486,"text":"但是這個第四場就已經沒有辦法再用權宜縮時了嘛對不對在八月的時候沒有辦法處理因為他要報缺那他不可能提前掌握那麼清楚的掌握到人力的需求對所以也就是說這個我們有關考試委員的人事同意權在這一次的審查假設都沒有通過我們馬上這個明年第四次考試"},{"start":6305.707,"end":6330.694,"text":"會有法制上的困難。這個是法定的嗎?典事法裡面規定由院長合體典事委員長。就這個部分是法制上面比較難突破的一個部分。對,這個部分我是非常憂心。不只是這樣子,我們現在進入所謂的看守期。我看我們法制上面"},{"start":6331.906,"end":6340.823,"text":"我們例如說我們過去都是都是考試院的的這個院會啦吼考試院的會議紀錄院會的會議紀錄啦吼那現在在這個"},{"start":6345.409,"end":6372.995,"text":"我們修改這個考試院院會的這個會議規則我們用修改會議規則的方式來繼續讓考試院能夠繼續在看守期來運作繼續召開但是他已經不是院會了嗎?他其實院會就是考試院會議的簡稱啦他還是考試院會議只是他不是用同一個法條來處理他是一個特殊狀況就是說這個司法性有沒有問題?"},{"start":6373.915,"end":6395.55,"text":"這個部分應該這樣就是說其實三位首長是院會僅存的成員其實他們本來就是院會的出席者對但是你們以前齁之前都是考試院第幾屆的第幾次會議記錄但是我看你們現在已經沒有第幾次會議記錄了也就是說你們認定你們也是認定這個不算是一次"},{"start":6397.091,"end":6425.689,"text":"應該說這個是他的名稱啦因為我們現在並不是13屆也不是14屆所以我們後來用日期來定這個會議名稱所以我們這個會議是這樣第一個他只能處理緊急必要事項那我舉兩個例子一個就是典事法裡面所有要求要有必須要有經過院會的議案讓典事程序可以繼續往下走第二個就是像是跨院的會嫌案比如說我們的體育部的這個整個修法運動部的修法"},{"start":6426.049,"end":6440.667,"text":"他牽涉到中央機關組織基準法必須要考試院會選那院會是考試院的決策機制好,這個部分齁這個部分我是擔心未來在這個釋法性上面齁是不是合憲合法這個部分齁恐怕會有點爭議啦齁不過"},{"start":6443.567,"end":6458.764,"text":"最後優關這個比較跟人民權益直接影響的在這個網路上面有看到現在目前在看守期我們所發的這些相關的考試及格證書上面沒有院長的名字"},{"start":6460.485,"end":6464.466,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":6486.624,"end":6492.588,"text":"假設我們未來解決了這樣子的法治上的問題之後他們能夠補換發證書嗎?有考試院院長"},{"start":6497.867,"end":6519.077,"text":"正書是只發只有一個版本因為他跟他的發出日有關所以他不能再換發成另外一個可以啊他如果遺失就可以補發啊遺失就發證明書證明書遺失之後只發證明書所以證書只發一次對政府只有只發一次因為這些人他們以後一輩子拿的就是考試院院長出缺的證"},{"start":6520.205,"end":6535.417,"text":"但是它就是考試院發出的證書。是啦,我知道這個效力是沒有影響的,但是在網路上面就很多拿到證書的考生,大家就是對於這樣的證書很有意見。大家就說如果真的不能補發,他們就要去報遺失。那發證明書的話?"},{"start":6538.635,"end":6555.96,"text":"就是用證明書的那個日期來處理這個我就覺得這個政治影響到人民的權益這個就是一個最大的例子我希望說我們是不是能夠研議看看因為這些證書相關的這些證書有的這些相關專業技術他們都要貼在都要貼在他們的這個相關的這個職業場所這上面就寫一個院長出缺"},{"start":6569.683,"end":6581.868,"text":"這個他一輩子開的醫院上面的證書這是院長出缺這個我是覺得我們研究看看啦他應該會主要是貼他的職業證書好謝謝審法會委員的質詢秘書長請回那接續我們邀請翁曉琳委員來質詢"},{"start":6598.971,"end":6599.331,"text":"蔡主委、施部長"},{"start":6616.335,"end":6634.046,"text":"蔡主委好我想最近大家都非常關心就是勞動力發展署分署的一個公務員輕生的問題然後這也凸顯出在公務機關裡面職場霸凌的問題那麼本席在這次也看到你們所提的報告書裡面那麼就"},{"start":6637.841,"end":6645.183,"text":"收支部分關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分關於考試院及所屬主管"},{"start":6666.408,"end":6667.648,"text":"關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":6687.813,"end":6687.833,"text":"議員報告"},{"start":6706.894,"end":6710.156,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":6734.505,"end":6734.965,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":6750.357,"end":6761.569,"text":"10月底大概有164筆都是跟職場霸凌有關的案件當然我想裡面有些是重複的但是呢這也可以反映一件事情其實就職場霸凌的問題在公務機關這個已經是過去以來就是常常會看到的只是"},{"start":6768.095,"end":6789.492,"text":"因為沒有發生可能有公務員因此輕生然後事件沒有爆發出來所以大家會以為說在公務機關職場霸凌的問題不嚴重但是事實上看得出來這個問題是嚴重的而不知道就是保訊會在這裡有沒有什麼作為從你們過去累積處理這些案子"},{"start":6790.333,"end":6792.115,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":6812.605,"end":6813.545,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":6833.573,"end":6834.854,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位"},{"start":6853.022,"end":6853.823,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":6869.249,"end":6874.15,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分"},{"start":6893.015,"end":6898.036,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選"},{"start":6920.503,"end":6921.284,"text":"請問主委您認為在這次的勞動"},{"start":6951.573,"end":6962.364,"text":"勞動力發展署的那位員工他是不是已經符合了國家賠償法的請求?跟委員報告因為我們目前沒有看到整個他來自於機關"},{"start":6963.387,"end":6963.968,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":6986.707,"end":6988.588,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":7012.483,"end":7014.084,"text":"主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":7042.966,"end":7065.473,"text":"部長您好,是這樣的,因為我想有個問題,這個是其實是長久以來就發生的,因為我們知道考選部每年都辦國家考試,而國家考試很重要,一定要聆聘出題委員、月卷委員但是呢,出題委員、月卷委員,其實他們很辛苦,對,我畢竟從學界出來,我這個曾經有出過"},{"start":7066.153,"end":7066.454,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部分"},{"start":7082.049,"end":7084.771,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部"},{"start":7111.566,"end":7125.251,"text":"跟委員報告我們正在檢討那我希望明年也就是如委員這個簡報所顯示的一旦我現在先穩定一下我們考選基金的那個財務健全的情況那明年我希望能夠提出針對這個的檢討"},{"start":7127.572,"end":7150.978,"text":"我覺得太慢了,我希望你們可以盡快提出相關的言議,如果說考選基金有沒有考試院可以比照司法院那樣,他也可以每年捐助一筆費用給考選業務基金,因為考選業務基金現在情況就是說,如果說你的規模沒有辦法成長,你沒有辦法提高考生的報名的考試"},{"start":7154.038,"end":7173.144,"text":"考試報名費用的話那你勢必你的錢從哪裡來的呢?我們在爭取我們還是努力的爭取一下就是說行政院看了不能租委員檢報這邊有一個補助不過我們基本上回到這個命題就是說針對命題會業卷會是一定要檢討那我希望盡快讓他做一個改善"},{"start":7173.484,"end":7193.203,"text":"是,在這個部分的話我是希望說這個要盡快改善,這已經不能再拖,否則的話我想未來可能也找不到這個專家學者出題和月卷了,好嗎?好,OK,那接下來還有一個問題,這個部分可能是跟全序部有關,跟請示請假有關的問題。"},{"start":7196.946,"end":7197.386,"text":"關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":7223.846,"end":7225.207,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":7253.746,"end":7255.087,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支"},{"start":7273.135,"end":7274.976,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":7298.624,"end":7299.805,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":7322.564,"end":7324.265,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":7350.981,"end":7356.663,"text":"好 謝謝翁曉琳委員的質詢 那部長請回好 接續我們邀請羅志強委員進行質詢請劉秘書長好 我們請劉秘書長"},{"start":7380.736,"end":7401.073,"text":"委員長,勞動部北分署洩漏霸凌員工導致輕生這個案子,你應該已經很了解了,對不對?看媒體的報導很多。我想請教,因為考試院其實對於公務人員,不管是權力、保障,都是至關重要的單位。"},{"start":7401.753,"end":7424.241,"text":"所以這一件事情我有兩個面向要來請教一下秘書長或是可以請相關的首長也可以來跟大家釐清一下第一個就是謝宜龍到底要負擔什麼樣的責任在公務員的身份上那他如果是涉及對他的下屬在職場進行霸凌這是第一個面向那第二個面向就是受霸凌致死的這個員工"},{"start":7426.772,"end":7426.972,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":7443.667,"end":7447.969,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":7470.074,"end":7489.291,"text":"所以那時候他也有同仁就是介入出來就是他把這個上司不合理要求的工作完成之後也付出了他的生命那這樣的一個情況之下也顯現出我們今天那個公務的那個單位文官的裡面實際上這文官的保障不只是外部"},{"start":7489.801,"end":7513.138,"text":"甚至內部的部分我覺得都出了很多的問題這個真的是一個要好好檢討的地方那我首先想要請教一下那謝宜龍當然一般我們可以區分所謂的行事行政跟民事責任那行事的部分的話如果說今天不要舉個例子就請問秘書長你大概有看到他有辦這個這位分署長謝宜龍他辦公室非常的奢華"},{"start":7514.104,"end":7537.005,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7537.541,"end":7556.623,"text":"跟委員報告我想當然服務法雖然都是有類似的條件不過更具體的講就是用烤雞法我想我們的烤雞法適用到所有的同仁包括主管所以我要講就只剩下烤雞的所謂的那個現在主要還是依賴烤雞對 只有打烤雞的問題而已所以沒有辦法對它有任何的約束"},{"start":7557.063,"end":7558.024,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":7584.423,"end":7599.436,"text":"我覺得我們文官在相關的一些尤其基層文官我們公務員是處在非常弱勢的情況之下顯然我們在法制上對於公務人員面對這種不合理的濫長官他們的所謂的微迫跟微壓我們的保障是不足的"},{"start":7601.719,"end":7614.691,"text":"考試院的部長有沒有針對這個部分覺得說哪些部分可以強化對於基層員工的保障的?我想這個部分的保障當然如果基層員工有對於管理的措施有任何"},{"start":7616.414,"end":7619.736,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":7645.609,"end":7665.173,"text":"我都剛剛還只講奢華我現在先問完再問你這個補強的部分從保障的部分因為現在大家都是說就是就霸凌這個部分並沒有在相關的法律當中有清楚的定位就這個部分法制面的確過去做的不足所以需要來做一些補強所以我們也在研議說從保障法我這樣細部問那個秘書長剛我還講說這位主管這個奢華浪費公帑"},{"start":7672.435,"end":7674.819,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":7683.533,"end":7703.606,"text":"其實霸凌的問題的話如果以現在的處理他有懲戒懲處各種的不同的管道啦就懲戒懲處他現在不在乎懲戒懲處我就舉一個例子喔這位分署長到現在我們覺得最無法忍受的地方在哪裡就是說他還蠻會保護自己的"},{"start":7704.346,"end":7705.606,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部"},{"start":7731.198,"end":7756.781,"text":"現在就是我看勞動部這邊的處理就是把他借兩大過免我講的是你連叫他出來面對真相我們的公務機關連這個能力都沒有你不覺得嗎?不是嗎?我現在講的是懲處當然是一定要懲處因為懲處已經是最低的以他的狀況大家對他介入他在乎這個懲處嗎?了不起不幹這個公務員就算了嘛可是現在你今天鬧出人命"},{"start":7758.015,"end":7759.337,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":7772.236,"end":7778.139,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":7799.52,"end":7826.695,"text":"現在勞動部長已經走了,現在勞動部長已經請辭了那今天回到這個個案,那第二個問題我又要再請教秘書長也請我們的相關的那個部會我剛剛只是講說今天謝榮的責任的問題顯然今天很明顯的你除了說用考機處分他以外你還真沒有第二個辦法那我也問秘書長事實上其實本來是有一個辦法可以把他叫來的你知道吧是什麼辦法你知道吧有一個辦法"},{"start":7827.915,"end":7857.077,"text":"就是立法院如果通過聽證調查可以針對霸凌案直接就把叫到國會來做聽證調查沒錯吧依照原來國會改革的規劃沒錯吧是啊對謝謝秘書長但是我今天說真的為什麼大家也不要我跟我最近對大法我對大法官其實是很尊重的但是最近大法官不管對於實質廢死的判決以及沒收國會改革就拿國會改革這件事來講今天謝毅榮如果今天國會改革通過今天就可以把他叫來立法院"},{"start":7858.342,"end":7860.143,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":7880,"end":7881.382,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位"},{"start":7891.687,"end":7895.23,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":7914.301,"end":7927.976,"text":"他有沒有涉及貪圖那形式要整版但今天我面臨的另外一個課題很嚴肅的課題是公務員的霸凌問題我直接跟各位講我就今天請所有今天在看我們今天司法法制委員會不是有一個很明顯的結論嗎拿他沒轍嘛"},{"start":7931.34,"end":7935.641,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":7962.604,"end":7983.997,"text":"委員報告在我們的保障法裡面移族可以依照這個保障法來提起關於對於這個事件的再申訴再申訴然後呢?然後就會送我講的是實質到底能夠提供家屬什麼樣的一個幫助協助甚至補償賠償有嗎?這個在這個程序部的規定"},{"start":7988.78,"end":7991.122,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":8005.726,"end":8006.887,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":8025.021,"end":8025.981,"text":"稅務基金收支部分關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":8048.566,"end":8076.438,"text":"對於所謂受害公務員能夠提供更多的保障的話這種事件說真的以後可能還會再度發生難道還要等到悲劇再度發生大家才有所警覺嗎?謝謝好謝謝羅志強委員的諮詢那秘書長、部長、主委請回我們先做這個會議程序的一個預告我們稍後在林委員、施民訓導完畢後休息五分鐘"},{"start":8077.608,"end":8077.808,"text":"公務人員保障"},{"start":8105.981,"end":8107.561,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部"},{"start":8132.674,"end":8153.568,"text":"各位報導,其實當認真檢查起來,所以保障法是比較原則性的規定,如果從寬解釋也是有含納這樣的一個概念。不過目前是有以人種有一個指引,作為大家處理個案的機制。當然這個部分牽涉到的相關法規,我是不是請蔡主委來做討論。"},{"start":8156.315,"end":8156.875,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8180.166,"end":8181.086,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部"},{"start":8202.41,"end":8209.316,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":8228.792,"end":8230.573,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":8257.964,"end":8281.617,"text":"我們還是因為發生這件事情之後大家才驚覺到說其實我們的公務人員的保障對於他在職場公務人員在他的這個工作環境裡面受到霸凌不管他是什麼樣的類型但他受到霸凌那我們如何來保障他就是說他如果受到霸凌那麼他如何的來去保障他受到霸凌之後要如何的保障他"},{"start":8282.017,"end":8284.458,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部"},{"start":8312.318,"end":8331.393,"text":"就是它是依照國家賠償法裡面有一些要件所以變成你是依照國家賠償法相關的規定嘛那我現在是說如果說因為國務院不法執行職務去霸凌人家這個是不是屬於不法執行職務啊這可能就是會有一些爭議嘛"},{"start":8332.634,"end":8355.262,"text":"但我的意思是如果你在公務人員保障法裡面或者相關的考機法裡面有相關的一些懲處的規定公務人員去涉及霸凌的行為那已經這個可能我們就會做相關的一個懲處的話我們可能國家賠償法裡面的相關規定就是因為這個公務人員涉及不法的行為就可以申請國賠阿他的依據就會非常的明顯阿"},{"start":8356.664,"end":8377.073,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8378.631,"end":8405.165,"text":"我們會把剛剛委員所提的這些意見納入我們這個安慰辦法跟保障法的修法的裡面讓它可以更明確那另外有關於考機法的部分請事務部長確實我們有擬議我們本來考機法有一個修正的擬議就是把性騷啦或者是霸凌啦或者是包括酒駕這一類我想我們政府宣誓不容忍的一個行為本來就要列入考試法的那個專案考"},{"start":8405.305,"end":8407.926,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":8434.48,"end":8456.135,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":8456.255,"end":8459.658,"text":"關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":8483.616,"end":8508.835,"text":"賴清哲總統他在擔任行政院長的時候在2019年的6月5號他在台大有一場演講他有一場演講他當行政院長的時候他有一場演講不是做總統的時候當行政院長的時候他說年金改革不能不可能回復到從前但如果有受到衝擊的話有受到衝擊的問題的時候必要的時候就應該做些調整"},{"start":8511.257,"end":8516.661,"text":"檢查院在1108年提出調查報告要求內政部警政署人事總署徹底檢討並謀求散策。行政院在1108年提出調查報告"},{"start":8539.4,"end":8551.305,"text":" bicy 今年3月20日也發函立法院檢証警察人員年金制度檢討的續處情形以及軍公教人員年金制度檢討資訊公開的事宜。"},{"start":8558.988,"end":8569.941,"text":"所以你是否贊成說警察人員以及消防人員以及為勞職務的人員能夠另外特別訂定退休的所得替代率?"},{"start":8573.06,"end":8591.029,"text":"這個議題的確需要比較謹慎,因為所有公務員都用同樣的費率跟同樣的所得替代率。如果有一部分人用同樣的費率但是用更高的所得替代率的話,那我們要考慮的比較是其他人員的公平性的問題。"},{"start":8592.17,"end":8597.052,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分"},{"start":8607.957,"end":8629.021,"text":"因為它的值等值級的制度跟一般公務員又有所不同,所以它的本縫會比較高,那它會反映在它的退休金當中。我想其實對年金改革,其實我們現在大家是對年金改革認為所有的公務人員不管是"},{"start":8629.642,"end":8632.407,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":8639.735,"end":8644.496,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":8667.023,"end":8668.544,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":8687.034,"end":8702.429,"text":"難道他們不應該得到他們退休後應該有的生活保障嗎?或者我們的老師回答委員剛剛講到調整那個部分所以在上一次年金改革修法的時候其實立法院當然各種意見那雖然所謂替代率逐年調降10年"},{"start":8703.63,"end":8723.264,"text":"但是也因此有一些配套機制就包含年金的這個給付每至少4年要做一次檢討或者是將消費者物價指數超過5%的時候要做相對應的處理所以因此年改上路雖然才幾年但是有調整了兩次一次是2%一次是今年4%所以就是說根據物價指數的這個上漲"},{"start":8725.846,"end":8747.574,"text":"稍後會有相對應的給付金額的調整,這個也是當時在機制當中大家很智慧的把它放進去的一個部分。時間也差不多,但是我還是希望說這個中心的要建議對於我們這些相關的警消還有公教人員,他們真的是現在退休後的生活保障真的不足了。"},{"start":8748.374,"end":8756.195,"text":"我希望這個政府還是要去多多考量他們的年金改革之後造成他們的巨大的一個影響。好,以上。好,謝謝。"},{"start":8808.251,"end":8809.912,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部"},{"start":8833.951,"end":8847.947,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部"},{"start":8861.138,"end":8864.573,"text":"收支部分關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分。"},{"start":8874.654,"end":8890.41,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":8912.292,"end":8914.855,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":8918.936,"end":8928.543,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":8945.913,"end":8951.155,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":8970.156,"end":8974.241,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":8989.038,"end":8993.301,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部"},{"start":9011.908,"end":9026.137,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":9037.459,"end":9056.652,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分"},{"start":9088.336,"end":9111.641,"text":"好,我們請同仁請我們備詢的首長就座那我們現在繼續開會我們接續邀請我們鄭天才委員進行質詢主席、各位委員有請秘書長好,請秘書長委員長"},{"start":9117.572,"end":9134.497,"text":"秘書長好這個這段時間這個在野黨都會關心這個年金改革已經實施從106年嗎?107年上路法律通過是106年修法所以這個已經實施這麼長的時間然後相關的這些"},{"start":9146.65,"end":9169.378,"text":"各方面的狀況跟以往也都不一樣然後相關的這些當初我不知道你當時在哪個職務我忘了就是說立法院三讀通過的公務人員教師的"},{"start":9170.834,"end":9172.355,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":9197.619,"end":9203.523,"text":"我第9屆在場。我也在司法及法制委員會參加審查,一直到宴會。當時總統府請了副總統"},{"start":9222.028,"end":9249.697,"text":"召集了包括考試院行政院包括專家寫者討論討論出了一個版本送到立法院這個畢竟是一個特別有跨跨部會跨院然後有專家寫者"},{"start":9250.922,"end":9251.783,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":9281.912,"end":9301.263,"text":"所以在這樣的一個過程當中實施這麼多年來之後是該檢討了是該檢討好,這個這裡面有沒有常務次長?好,沒關係好好,秘書長一個常務次長一個常務次長"},{"start":9312.076,"end":9321.299,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選"},{"start":9338.37,"end":9341.254,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":9351.738,"end":9380.983,"text":"我跟你們報告其實我們在討論退休金應該是兩個概念去看一個是制度面的設計一個是根據這個制度面會拿到實際上多少錢我想是這樣設計那自己拿到實際多少錢才足夠一個人的退休生活這個真的也是滿每個人不太一樣的概念啦我們就不談這個好了最起碼中華民國政府一個公務員我們就講六十等好了從六十等"},{"start":9383.344,"end":9408.693,"text":"從6指等這樣升升升升升升升到常務次長14指等還不是只有當一兩年喔當個很多年的常務次長之後這個25年以前早期25年可以退休嘛就退休了這樣高的一個我們不講生活啦這樣高的一個指等"},{"start":9410.376,"end":9438.958,"text":"結果他退休每個月的退休金如果只有4萬多塊5萬塊你說他合不合理他本來是領10萬塊每個月所以這個部分是一個西奧氣已經實施這麼多年了該檢討了那尤其是那個錦霄啊剛才秘書長的答覆我不太認同他可能不太了解"},{"start":9440.929,"end":9468.223,"text":"現在的被提名的人為了假設他通過了立法院的他當考試院院長當初他當全系部部長的時候我質詢他我建議他他也認同錦銷的部分不應該跟他的退休啊退休不應該放在公務人員的退休之前撫恤法裡面"},{"start":9469.315,"end":9497.265,"text":"就應該放在警察人員人事條例裡面不應該拉出來這真的是不一樣不一樣的工作不一樣的這些相關我們軍人好了當初軍人有做調整因為當時的國防部部長很堅持所以有比公教警校的來得好一點點軍人的部分"},{"start":9498.066,"end":9517.877,"text":"但是如果我們現在看軍人切啊,切軍人切得很嚴重啊現在。買了這麼多高性能的武器,到時候沒有人來操作。精良的武器又有精良的國軍的軍人啊。"},{"start":9519.38,"end":9526.024,"text":"主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選"},{"start":9550.54,"end":9551.121,"text":"姜委員早"},{"start":9563.732,"end":9584.83,"text":"退伍基金的主要收入來源是提撥整個收繳由參與基金的軍公教人員治繳跟政府的撥補收入但是我們看到107年7月份開始我們所謂實施的退休年金改革後那透過逐年的調升退伍基金的提撥費率"},{"start":9588.473,"end":9613.427,"text":"又將調降並將調降退休所得跟優惠利率存款優惠利率所省的經費全部都預注在退伍基金裡頭這是所謂的年金改革來增加整個基金的財源你點頭了也就是它怎麼來的但是我沒有看到公教人員個人專庫至退伍基金從112年去年的7月份開始來執行"},{"start":9617.99,"end":9630.504,"text":"現在退伍基金我們可以看到無出任的公務人員加入因為他已經有個人專戶了那參與的提撥人數也會逐年地來遞減那基金的提撥收入當然他勢必會減少"},{"start":9633.486,"end":9654.454,"text":"為了要這個退伍基金的永續發展那除了提撥之外本席想要請問兩位我們未來要怎麼樣去調整這個制度讓它能夠永續因為我們看到也就是說這個希望政府退伍基金的這個部分它是100億"},{"start":9656.435,"end":9657.737,"text":"公教114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":9671.272,"end":9681.156,"text":"公務人員退伍基金用慶年度預估140年,依照目前提早5年,會到135年,這是警訊。教育人員退伍基金用慶年限139年,"},{"start":9698.863,"end":9718.962,"text":"提早到133年等於是提早6年換句話說這兩個都會提早5年到6年的這個缺口所以呢這撥補要涉及的政府你長期支出的一個負擔那你實際上再由行政院來拍板定案最後你撥補要多少"},{"start":9719.522,"end":9744.283,"text":"那我剛剛說的我們這些人員他應該是要有榮耀的他應該是有制度的而不是每一次到了快年底再因應期盼政府還會撥補多少這樣子對我們整個這個榮耀感絕對是抹殺掉而且是不尊重所以在這樣的情況之下本席要請教本席要請教雖然114年度我們看到在工的部分是120億的一個撥補"},{"start":9747.386,"end":9763.619,"text":"每一年都會嗎?還是只有114年呢?額度都一樣110上下嗎?所以本期要請教兩位為了我們基金的一個永續發展除了撲普之外你財務方面可以怎麼樣來健全跟改善?請做說明"},{"start":9764.448,"end":9783.899,"text":"委員會主要還是因為法律就明定就是說因為實施新制所以原來的基金的不足的地方政府必須要根據精算的結果分年撥補我們每年都會根據提出一個預算數然後行政院再做綜合的考量所以從本來比較少今年已經變成120億了"},{"start":9786.801,"end":9787.722,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考試院總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":9812.472,"end":9826.691,"text":"因為你都來一個未知數啊!是,跟委員報告,今年度的預算在去年討論的時候當然大家對於說只撥補公交個50億這個部分是有很多的不同意見所以在編列明年預算的時候我們跟主席總書當然有協調"},{"start":9828.773,"end":9832.758,"text":"本席已經告訴你,你114年我看到你是撥補121的預算,我們看到了,但是本席要告訴你,就誠如你說的,各50億大家都有意見"},{"start":9843.87,"end":9860.423,"text":"那對這些人來講不公平啊本期要跟你討論的是制度面的問題啊主計總署就是採用了我們20年撥補的那個精算的數字所以就編列叫74億供120億所以總共194億在一年的預算那未來應該也是要到這個節奏下去提供比較優的方案是不是"},{"start":9866.368,"end":9871.815,"text":"就是說未來應該是照這個節奏就是20年撥補方案來出20年的撥補方案不是本席也功課給你請你也去討論我們除了撥補之外因為我們有通膨的問題有財務收支的問題你們應該要專案去討論讓我們這些人"},{"start":9883.709,"end":9883.989,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":9906.111,"end":9918.025,"text":"接下來本期二請問我們用實際的數字告訴你全國公務人員總人數總人數喔 那個部長你請回喔 秘書長我們看到103年底呢 我們的人數是34.78萬"},{"start":9920.507,"end":9935.397,"text":"到112年底36.55萬雖然比同期增加了一點點但是我們又看到平均年齡103年是43.37歲那到了112年是43.8換句話說增加0.48我們又看到年齡層的級距18到29歲那占比是9.75他是增加了12.05那換句話說跟上年度來比較是增加2.3個百分比但是30到54歲"},{"start":9950.146,"end":9951.207,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":9970.207,"end":9985.513,"text":"所以本期要請教我們最近看到平均10年的退休年齡延後這10年是延後的而且很多是到你才退休到你才退休在這樣的一個情況之下你要怎麼樣去改善你人力"},{"start":9985.913,"end":9986.253,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算非營業"},{"start":10010.187,"end":10030.404,"text":"訓練的部分,在職訓練的部分要一直要加強,也就是說讓我們在這個職場的人,即使是因為年齡比較長一些,但他可以接觸到新知。好,律師長你現在回答因為時間的關係,你有看到問題點,你把你的問題以及精進方案給本席,我們希望友善。我給你一個功課。"},{"start":10031.705,"end":10049.111,"text":"繼承公務人員因為考機制度缺乏向上考核的評鑑制度、商調的制度等等他在面臨到像這一次霸凌的事件這麼大這麼大的引起社會的一個共憤在這樣情況之下不合理的職場待遇求助無門部長"},{"start":10050.871,"end":10067.668,"text":"司法部長跟我們的秘書長你要怎麼樣去落實那個申訴以及諮商輔導的政策本席認為不要再讓憾事來發生你們應該好好去整體性的一個檢討你們多久時間給本席你們精進的方案"},{"start":10073.516,"end":10074.858,"text":"接下來有請徐委員欣迎發言"},{"start":10103.045,"end":10107.232,"text":"謝謝主席本席有請我們的秘書長請劉秘書長還有保訓會的蔡主委"},{"start":10117.216,"end":10119.337,"text":"公務人員保障法第77條公務人員保障法第77條"},{"start":10135.788,"end":10164.208,"text":"第一項規定公務人員對於服務機關所為之管理措施或是有關工作條件之處置認為不當者致影響其權益者得依本法提起申訴再申訴可是我們現在的公務人員包含勞動部的這個案例他已經很痛苦在水深火熱之中請問他有沒有向我們保訓會提出申訴有或沒有請回答"},{"start":10166.049,"end":10166.249,"text":"好,所以"},{"start":10179.605,"end":10180.885,"text":"公務人員保障培訓委員會公務人員保障培訓委員會公務人員保障培訓委員會"},{"start":10206.875,"end":10208.536,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部"},{"start":10228.308,"end":10248.287,"text":"有經過單位然後再向保訓會申訴的案件過去5年來總共收到79件結果被保訓會駁回的有63件被你們撤銷的有9案不受理的有6案最後行政機關有作為的只有一案"},{"start":10249.368,"end":10266.177,"text":"請問秘書長跟主委你們滿意嗎?現在因為過去五年這種情況讓公務人員根本都不敢也覺得沒有用所以讓一個生命他忍受到難以忍受自行解脫"},{"start":10267.182,"end":10290.872,"text":"委員我要跟您報告一件事我們在解讀駁回這個數字的時候它裡面有兩種可能一個是沒有啦我現在是問你滿意不滿意嘛這種情況你很滿意這個情況嗎這個沒有辦法說滿意不滿意因為駁回的時候有可能是被處罰的那個人不服機關的處罰來保訓會這邊在申訴所以他的救濟是簡單講"},{"start":10292.593,"end":10299.736,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":10320.663,"end":10324.053,"text":"那身為考試院不管哪一位首長"},{"start":10325.461,"end":10351.377,"text":"都是讓台灣的文官制度更健全讓我們所有公務人員可以勇於認識我們也要保護他們還有他們工作職場他們的權益我們都該維護可是我們看到考試院因為過去憲法徵修條文之後感覺考試院就變成這個行政院底下的法治局本席對這個情況是非常非常不滿意的"},{"start":10352.336,"end":10379.866,"text":"那我們是希望我們是希望考試院不管擔任哪一個職務我們真的要為我們台灣這個公務人員大家有好的工作環境還有好的整個的制度才能夠激勵公務人員的士氣我想在制度面我們會積極來檢討那剛剛委員講到就是說剛剛我們提的這79案你們可以詳細的給我給我說明跟報告嗎"},{"start":10381.789,"end":10386.755,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":10393.124,"end":10414.746,"text":"這個可以提供嗎?在按照規定?這個區識別化以後呢我們可以在保護當事人的這個資訊底下最後請看一下投影片我們公務人員依據官等可以分檢任、見任跟委任三種請教秘書長你認為一個正常合理的組織結構應該是哪一個?請盡快回答欸?怎麼沒有?"},{"start":10414.986,"end":10444.091,"text":"我昨天有看到委員的那個被提名的質詢那我直接講就是說為什麼我們中間這一層的建任會比較比例會比較高是因為我們工部門對於就是說現在的職務的職能需求其實提高了所以那如果是基層委員他真的是比較事務性質可是我們越來越多人所以現在我們的政府單位跟民間不一樣我們都是經理跟領班人數呢比基層員工多所以下命令的人多"},{"start":10444.611,"end":10464.611,"text":"做事的人少?他不是這樣命令,其實中間的那個現任的部分他也是他也是小主管吧?對啊,小主管多然後基層人員少但是我跟委員報告,現在地方政府都在希望我們不要去一直規定一定要多少比例是委任的因為他們面對的事務越來越複雜,每個承辦人其實都很多"},{"start":10465.612,"end":10466.752,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":10483.919,"end":10497.609,"text":"因為他們需要更高階的人力去面對民眾的期待跟更多越複雜的服務事項所以建任這個部分比較多在政府這樣的性質的組織裡面其實並不是不正常"},{"start":10498.474,"end":10527.404,"text":"最後最後我看主席也站起來最後就是我們看到冰山的一角勞動署分署長他可以這樣子一路做直升機升遷所以我們覺得機關用人跟升遷還是還是要能夠有一定的一個制度合理那對各種人事權我們希望考試院能夠有完整的憲法制度的這個權利這樣才是國家長治久安之道"},{"start":10528.604,"end":10551.476,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝徐委員、謝謝劉秘書長、謝謝部長跟主委接下來有請吳委員、麗華發言謝謝主席有請考試院劉秘書長以及考選部劉部長劉秘書長、劉部長請委員長"},{"start":10559.694,"end":10575.88,"text":"考試院負責高普考的考選部,其中有一個類科叫做原住民族行政。它的考試科目有加考台灣原住民族歷史與文化,原住民族行政與法規。"},{"start":10577.788,"end":10591.971,"text":"看分發,原住民族行政類科分發單位僅限於原民會及各縣市的原住民族行政機關。以112年來看,全國公務員原住民公務員的比例是1.9%。"},{"start":10603.959,"end":10606.98,"text":"關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":10626.078,"end":10637.473,"text":"總統說要落實到各部會要推動族群主流化現在我們也相當重視所謂的文化敏感度因為我們台灣是一個多元族群的國家"},{"start":10638.354,"end":10657.74,"text":"在這裡呢我就想要來問喔訓練就變得非常重要那在我們考試院下的有國家文官學院我就想知道說這樣的一個考進來的公務員那麼他們要從哪裡評估或培訓他們的文化敏感度這我是不是請保訓會的各位好 可以謝謝簡單回答就好"},{"start":10665.559,"end":10686.509,"text":"公委員報告目前在這個課程裡面都有相關的這個在人權教育的部分裡面都有特別有針對這個原住民族的這個意識的養成那不只是對於原住民族的這個部分包含其他的所有的公務人員都有這樣的課程比例呢?您說課程比例嗎?對"},{"start":10691.211,"end":10717.146,"text":"為什麼我關心這個問題因為我們來看一下我們原住民的特考啊他除了一般的行政類科他還要加考原住民的行政他的考試強度是更高的負擔是更大的從110年起呢他還要加考取得原住民主語認證的合格證書那在這個狀況下我想請教一下秘書長"},{"start":10718.345,"end":10736.913,"text":"原名特考是不是國家考試?跟高普考有程度的差別嗎?因為適用對象不同高普考不會限於特定族群來參加考試我請你來看一下我請你來主張一下內政部我們問他說"},{"start":10739.693,"end":10765.038,"text":"我們請他解釋他的警察人員有沒有包含特考他的回函113年4月19號他的回函是這樣他說就文藝解釋他說所稱特種考試警察人員應不包含公務人員特種考試的原住民族特考下稱原民特考"},{"start":10766.274,"end":10770.237,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":10790.931,"end":10815.451,"text":"在這樣的一個狀況之下我們原鄉已經很難看到原住民警察這個現象在我們的教師界醫護界都是一樣的所以這幾年我們都在想怎麼為偏鄉原鄉留住人才這個很重要那警察我們也希望能夠針對他們現在很好他們有把"},{"start":10815.931,"end":10818.193,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":10841.428,"end":10851.811,"text":"好,可是他也很同意但是他的見解是說不能在我們的警察特考他說要在我們的警察特考不能在原民特考"},{"start":10852.782,"end":10878.307,"text":"因為他說他們不接受原名特考但是我現在就想問啊我們來看他們的警察人員的人事條例施行細則他上面寫著他的公務人員所稱的這些警察人員高考、普考、初等考試或特種考試他寫特種考試欸可是請他解釋的時候他說應不包含原住民特考欸"},{"start":10879.207,"end":10898.422,"text":"所以考選部告訴我說可以啊因為我們有所謂的法警啊司法警察他在司法特考也可以考他在一般高普考他也有開甚至在原民特考也有開法警我們考完了之後我們請他們來使用那我就想問啊那"},{"start":10900.58,"end":10930.023,"text":"第一個問題如果內政部願意修正他的施行細則去把這個解釋解釋清楚請教秘書長請教部長也可以可以嗎跟我們報告考選部這邊跟內政部的觀點不同我們認為完全不用修施行細則因為我們現有已經在原名特考裡面有法警跟監所人員依法警管理條例法警通過要通過法警考試那司法司法院那邊是認定"},{"start":10930.663,"end":10934.285,"text":"主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":10954.502,"end":10955.903,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":10975.06,"end":10990.759,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":10991.523,"end":11009.418,"text":"謝謝吳委員,主席這邊也許諾一下,我也很好奇啊,特中至特,那麼按照部長的說法是,你們的原住民特考只要增開考科,有考出行政警察,那警政署就可以任用,是這個意思嗎?不,這必須還是必須警政署那邊,所以我們現在跟他有歧義,那我要說明這兩種會不同。"},{"start":11011.34,"end":11014.741,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":11039.068,"end":11057.625,"text":"那就你們一個月內,三位劉秘書長、劉部長跟劉部長好好討論一下,我也很好奇,謝謝接下來我們請蘇清泉委員,蘇清泉委員不在,我們請洪孟凱委員,洪孟凱,洪孟凱委員不在,我們請吳釗偉中線發言"},{"start":11072.124,"end":11072.745,"text":"主席、秘書長、蔡主委主要討論一下"},{"start":11093.224,"end":11114.426,"text":"這個霸凌的問題,那我想說,其實事情,前陣子勞動部的那個事情之後,其實非常多人都打電話到我辦公室,就我現在目前收到非常多,有衛福部的、有疾管署的、還有調查站、調查局調查站的、還有社會局的,都打電話到我辦公室,然後"},{"start":11115.347,"end":11116.808,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬"},{"start":11135.418,"end":11135.498,"text":"公務員公務員"},{"start":11156.651,"end":11173.067,"text":"這是一個長期的問題那為什麼我們這個會期我們一直在推接避者保護法因為我們總是覺得說還是要讓機關公部門或是一些國營企業甚至有人認為私部門也要要一些人能夠勇於出來"},{"start":11174.161,"end":11176.883,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":11201.894,"end":11216.622,"text":"現在考試院主管法規裡面目前並沒有霸凌的定義那現在霸凌的定義人事總書的那個指引裡面是有一個說明那他也參考了就是勞動部這一職場霸凌的那個指引的內容"},{"start":11217.242,"end":11243.733,"text":"那當然這個部分如果我們要接下來法制化的過程中我們對這個定義也需要再來檢視跟找專家討論。那這個秘書長你們要照理思考這個點因為這個名詞就是太不確定法律概念了所以有的人打電話過來他講了半天那我們的同仁我們同仁都是當過公務員很多都當過公務員那他們都要去思考到底符不符合所謂霸凌這兩個字的定義也就是說考試院這邊並沒有一個明確的這個定義出來那變成到底什麼樣子是"},{"start":11245.054,"end":11247.535,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":11261.178,"end":11284.823,"text":"後面修法的過程中會把各位的委員的意見都納入思考跟討論因為為什麼我會這樣提因為就像我昨天有開一個公聽會就是打詐的公聽會那其實打詐一個很重要的點就是我們要先讓這些民眾知道什麼樣的東西它可能是詐騙的訊息所以試詐是在打詐之前要怎麼樣辨別"},{"start":11286.55,"end":11315.368,"text":"他們就是自己已經遭受騙了那一樣怎麼樣去識別霸凌也是將來的一個問題嘛所以我才會說麻煩你們一定要特別注意一下這個點就像剛剛很多人在批評那個剛上任的那個勞動部部長洪森翰說他19號在那個一個節目裡面就有透露說在公務員輕生之前呢他就有聽過這個謝一龍的這個鬼故事他也有向勞動部反映但是呢即便是執政黨籍的立委向勞動部反映也毫無作為"},{"start":11316.531,"end":11334.382,"text":"所以這個東西到底要怎麼樣去評斷呢?變成說現行保障公務員的這個規定已經失靈了嘛那考試院這個是一個很重要的你們的一個職責啊那你們不能說連這個定義到現在都還沒有一個明確的定義出來"},{"start":11337.143,"end":11357.285,"text":"所以我還是要這個部分要麻煩你們因為總是要讓公務員知道什麼是霸凌那他才能夠知道要怎麼申訴其實我跟你講趕出來申訴的公務員已經很少了啦我自己以前在當基層檢察官的時候也沒少過被場官霸凌啦那我們也都我這輩子沒有申訴過"},{"start":11358.266,"end":11363.57,"text":"所以更不要講檢察官法官還是都是獨立辦案有一定的權利更不要講基層公務員我想請問一下"},{"start":11381.295,"end":11396.516,"text":"這次事件勞動部有說要修治安法考試院作為保障還有培訓全國公務員的主管機關在這個事件發生之後有沒有去思考就公務人員安全跟衛生防護辦法要去做修正 有沒有"},{"start":11397.057,"end":11424.295,"text":"各位報告,其實上禮拜我跟蔡主委還有司事部長就這個事件新聞事件交換意見的時候我們也覺得法制面的部分包含保障法跟安慰辦法的部分都可以來強化那把這個霸凌的那個能夠做法制化的研究那昨天在立法院審查那個考試院被提名人的時候那這個院長被提名人周前副院長他也有做相關的宣示我想這個就會是接下來考試院最積極的工作"},{"start":11424.975,"end":11427.337,"text":"目前我們人事行政總署有一個員工職場霸凌房子跟處理流程"},{"start":11445.569,"end":11465.299,"text":"但是各個機關到底要不要訂這個作業的規定其實到現在也都不知道那機關不訂好像也沒有什麼法律效果就算訂了好像也沒有什麼處理的效果所以到最後大家還是回到公務員保障法的方式去申訴所以到時候還是要換你們頭痛"},{"start":11468.372,"end":11495.125,"text":"這個機制更明確一點我想就是讓員工知道如果真的發生事情的時候他應該尋求什麼樣的管道來處理那事務785號其實也有提到就是說我們要保障這些政府公務員的健康權嘛這也是考試院業務裡面的重中之重所以麻煩一下你們要去思考在這次事情發生之後考試院到底能夠為公務員做什麼相關的修法該怎麼做"},{"start":11496.578,"end":11523.656,"text":"為什麼我今天會提這個?其實我國的勞工有那個治安法在保障他們但是治安法它能夠適用到的公務人員可能就只有基於譬如說公職的醫護人員或者是教師那除了這個之外的公務員是不被這個治安法所保護的那最近有一些團體其實出來一直在喊說希望把公務員一併"},{"start":11525.737,"end":11526.779,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":11542.261,"end":11543.783,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬"},{"start":11558.863,"end":11561.344,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":11582.219,"end":11583.48,"text":"公務員公務員會比較有保障"},{"start":11610.282,"end":11612.604,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管收支"},{"start":11638.905,"end":11646.336,"text":"我們都是公務員出身的我們都很清楚公部門有什麼樣的問題公務員又比勞工更不敢申訴"},{"start":11649.817,"end":11671.416,"text":"但是事實上為什麼我能夠理解很多單位、很多團體他們會出來希望公務員也一併適用這個治安法因為其實你說職場上面的這個安全、危險、健康或不健康、職災的這些風險其實並沒有分公部門跟私部門大家都一樣危險"},{"start":11672.765,"end":11696.35,"text":"所以我希望說對於勞工的保障還是盡量能夠對於公務員的保障盡量能夠能夠更普遍一點更良善一點那個案例辦法反而就有修改研修的計畫那我們並同為接下來這個保障法的修法會一併來處理那你這個辦法的修改能不能給我們一分因為辦法你們要改很快啊"},{"start":11697.251,"end":11719.552,"text":"安慰辦法本來的修改計劃,但是它因為一直跟消防員安全提升這個議題有納入討論所以當時就對於修安慰辦法還是用職安法還是用消防法哪一個管道來處理比較適當那最後立法院也三讀通過了消防法的修改所以我們會搭配的這個消防這個三讀後的這個消防法"},{"start":11719.972,"end":11739.939,"text":"然後來設計我們這邊對於這個植物相關風險的部分。好,那再麻煩你們把相關的資料給我們,因為我們畢竟我辦公室現在主要還是法律人才,我希望說我們能夠看一下,那我們如果有這個能力能夠給一點建議,我們也希望給一些建議。因為我拉了非常多以前公部門的同仁來立法院幫忙啦。"},{"start":11740.319,"end":11742.14,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":11762.21,"end":11778.626,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":11778.766,"end":11779.867,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支"},{"start":11797.142,"end":11798.343,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":11817.634,"end":11821.557,"text":"謝謝莊委、謝謝秘書長、謝謝部長。好,我們先處理會議時間,上午會議時間與詢答結束後繼續進行預算解凍案處理完畢為止。接著請莊委員瑞雄發言。謝謝莊委、莊委、有請我們考試院秘書長還有我們考選部部長。"},{"start":11846.275,"end":11868.212,"text":"局長還有部長我想這個幾個問題來請教就是說我們考選部為了整個營運憲法我們在113年憲判制第6號的一個判決針對公務人員特種考試就是一級一般的警察人員的考試規則第8條第一款的一個規定就是說考試就是體檢體格的一個問題"},{"start":11869.793,"end":11870.553,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":11888.547,"end":11892.57,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":11905.6,"end":11907.982,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":11925.478,"end":11939.904,"text":"我倒是有一個想法啦那這一次全面的去檢視體格檢查項目裡面你去建議刪除兩項警察人員考試規則的一個升高的一個標準嘛那可是呢內政部在10月8號的時候也"},{"start":11942.105,"end":11946.587,"text":"主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":11960.578,"end":11979.509,"text":"後來好像意見又有一點點保守了,這個不曉得部長您這邊的看法怎麼樣?跟委員報告,如委員所說,因為那個身高限制是屬於一年內定期失效,所以我們必須要在12月底之前就把它先處理掉,那目前優暖機關它的建議就是刪除。會刪除嗎?"},{"start":11983.471,"end":12009.709,"text":"會刪除但是我們必須因為這是重大的那個規則考試規則所以必須要等到那個我們大概很難把它就是我們要把它做為目前的看守期待處理會有困難所以雖然目前已經有一個結論會送進考試院但是必須等到考試院的那一個趕快組成正式的院會來處理內政部這個建議我是覺得很好啦"},{"start":12010.708,"end":12030.159,"text":"考試院這個地方部長我來提供你參考部長你也來思考看看你像這一次我們國家隊出去就黎玉敏這個她那個刺青那個紋身我剛很多人就跟她講說8加9我看了實在是我就有點莫名其妙這個都是老一輩的人"},{"start":12031.62,"end":12051.993,"text":"對於現在整個社會的一個進程跟在台灣有那麼多不同的一個民族人家各個民族之間有他的文化有他的藝術的一個意涵裡面刺進去 靠 這樣就不能做警察我看好多媒體的記者我每次看到他們我那個包手 包手 笑我問你那個多少錢他說要兩個月薪水 兩個月薪水他是這樣手刺青以後啊"},{"start":12059.978,"end":12063.881,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":12087.602,"end":12106.425,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":12106.687,"end":12120.241,"text":"目前的考試規則是可以,也就是跟委員報告其實並沒有說刺青就不能,但是他必須經過,他現在問題是他經過醫師檢查,然後去確定他們有不亞意涵,或者有斑派等的意涵。目前實務上就是有在經過醫師來做一個判斷。"},{"start":12127.848,"end":12153.954,"text":"其實老實說內政部來講的話他們是覺得說由醫師判斷在實務上現在的確是有遇到比較麻煩的地方所以才建議刪除但是我覺得這件事情還是要回到因為這個是屬於社會爭議比較大的事項所以我們目前是把它跟升高的兩個把它拆開處理那那個刺青這個爭議比較大的事項我們希望還是必須要等到還是一樣等到我們院會有充分的討論以後再來進行處理以上"},{"start":12156.014,"end":12172.048,"text":"本來那個規則裡面第10個我都認為這樣的一個負面的一個放在那個地方把它明示出來本身對刺青跟紋身就有很大的一個負面上的給人家賦予這樣的一個標籤化的意涵"},{"start":12174.72,"end":12198.506,"text":"這個議題當然一定可以討論那也一方面是誘人機關的反應那他可能是從這個這樣的規定到底合不合時宜或者是認定上面到底會不會出現爭議來反映這樣意見所以我們預告那預告這個規定之後秘書長這個不勝利啊這個就不像你了這個什麼大家可以來討論這個很明顯就不合時宜啊"},{"start":12199.346,"end":12200.247,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":12223.285,"end":12224.146,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選"},{"start":12244.823,"end":12246.384,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":12270.581,"end":12278.093,"text":"跟委員報告,剛剛說的那一個委員舉的例子很好,它在我們現在就屬於原住民寄傳統遺書,那是可以的。"},{"start":12278.462,"end":12304.105,"text":"當然剛剛還有一些文化藝術,所以我還是比較希望我們對這再做充分的討論。也許有一些正面表列可以表達再更多。另外,我針對於國家考試的一個公平性跟多元性的問題,我想請教部長就是說,假設我是考官,我要出一個題目來讓你闡述一下生命中的好奇心,我不曉得你會怎麼樣來回應我?"},{"start":12306.006,"end":12322.276,"text":"我看今年喔這個高考高等考試啊這個三級考試的作文題目裡面有將這個AI浪草作為因子來要求作文那很可惜啊我就看那個題目看到一半我相信很多考生都以為是跟AI有關的題目結果倒就你導出來題目是要大家去前面講AI"},{"start":12324.093,"end":12351.826,"text":"第一個想法如果是考生我想說AI可能在我公務上會有多大的一個方便如何來促進整個我整個處理整個這個面對這些公務的時候讓他更簡便或者說讓他有更精進的地方結果到最後討出來的題目是生命中的好奇心我就覺得這個很怪那個題目如果是說AI人工智慧是可以取代人力嗎或者說AI人工智慧對於公務體系有什麼弊端跟益處嗎"},{"start":12353.147,"end":12379.87,"text":"這可能就沒有那麼八股啊順應時事是好事啊但是我看啊 這個我們整個在考題喔最主要是你要去測試出這個人適不適合來當公務人員啊我看那個題目喔那怕死人 我看完之後 我知道說你去看喔 你有國文考題啊但是在帶民務長跟部長來看今年啊高考課題的一個國文考題中其中的一題啊他說 有方位一詞在使用上啊"},{"start":12380.97,"end":12389.255,"text":"有時賦予文化上的意涵,下列選項何者在方位之外具有其他的意涵?A."},{"start":12389.255,"end":12393.477,"text":"駙馬依北風,月鳥潮南枝。B."},{"start":12393.477,"end":12398.18,"text":"孤狐號外爺,翔鳥鳴北林。3."},{"start":12398.18,"end":12400.862,"text":"士主難免事業公餐。你對一個答案。不然A是什麼意思?"},{"start":12407.91,"end":12409.831,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":12432.766,"end":12448.302,"text":"我認為啦,我認為啦,我看到這個題目以後,然後你看辦公室同仁要自證退休禮物給長官不適合使用哪一個題詞?絕功其為、勳越永垂、行儀可施,你們答案是C這個不行,這人死掉了嘛齁永懷得風,欸我在參加公祭的時候我也常常看到永懷得風啊,那D也不行啊"},{"start":12457.864,"end":12480.915,"text":"啊所以你們答案為什麼是C?叫我去考試我連D我都把它選下去了。昨天明天我們常常看到這個啊。欸那個閃動啊。我們去公祭的時候啊。常常會看到這個咧。啊如果剛好他那位考生他昨天晚上剛好去參加他的親人。欸昨天晚上有那個那個不適合就把他選D。那你說他不對。啊這也好奇怪啊。"},{"start":12482.5,"end":12500.469,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":12500.549,"end":12518.57,"text":"因為這些大概都是臨命出來我們叫臨時命題國文在過去都是這樣那我們現在希望拔走題庫可以早一點的來進行檢視讓它比較傾向於是比較測驗能力的方面考試委要怎麼出題立法院不會有意見啦當然我們一定都是尊重我的意思就是說"},{"start":12519.451,"end":12520.011,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":12543.343,"end":12563.247,"text":"最後30秒我來請教一下部長就是說我也看到你們的前部許部長曾提出要研議用評估性向測驗來取代公務人員考試的共同一個科目那也跟日本的考試方針去做一個靠攏那以前你們都一直這樣講說各類的性向測驗來取代共同考試研議的一個進度那接下來接下來我不知道你們的方向到底是怎樣還是你們都只是親自說說而已"},{"start":12571.628,"end":12597.129,"text":"已經在進行了,我們會傾向於說因為所謂的取代變成科目取代但是另外一個走向是即使在現有的國文、英文這樣的科目裡面其實就可以把這邊開始以比例的題目開始把它融入我們現在要開始做這件事情但是它是基本能力我們不要強調說性向測驗一般會以為是某種的什麼其實它真正的解釋是屬於一種基本素養跟能力的測驗"},{"start":12599.071,"end":12610.56,"text":"例如說批判思考、溝通這樣的一個東西那我們開始把它融入既有的題目總結我的意思是說國家在取材這個國家考試我們確實考選職務上必須要與時俱進也不會開考生的玩笑考試委員權力很大、點試委員權力很大但是有時候你這樣突發奇想我跟你講那累死我們的考生"},{"start":12625.356,"end":12627.037,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部"},{"start":12648.22,"end":12648.78,"text":"請秘書長和全序部部長"},{"start":12676.031,"end":12697.859,"text":"昨天昨天早上我也問了我們的周鴻憲就是院長被提名人有關於霸凌的事件就是未來在考試院在相關的法令上可以有怎麼樣的一個改善跟精進"},{"start":12699.019,"end":12724.591,"text":"那在這個過程裡面其實很多委員都非常關心那我想有一些部分我想在做在這邊再做一些釐清就是在昨天我們的被提名人周洪憲這個院長被提名人他有特別提到就是可能會在這個公務人員保障法裡面去保障有關於職場霸凌的這個問題"},{"start":12726.232,"end":12740.061,"text":"但是呢我們所了解的是事實上在今年年初的時候我們的考試院事實上全訓部有提出公務人員考機法的一個修正而且在這個修正方向第11條跟第12條"},{"start":12742.423,"end":12765.236,"text":"其實我覺得基本上是一個現在社會上針對如果公務人員有這個重大不當的這個行為譬如我們所關心的不管是職場霸凌或者是性騷或者是酒駕、獨駕其實也都在公務人員考積法的修正草案裡面去把它已經再把它做了一些補充"},{"start":12766.477,"end":12785.734,"text":"那麼使得未來公務人員在打考機的時候如果你有重大的這些相關的問題的話那麼就有這個法律依據可以來做處理那我想請問一下但是為什麼考試院遲遲都沒有把這個公務人員考機法把它送出來那問題在哪裡"},{"start":12787.455,"end":12788.116,"text":"稍後會有更加明確的條文。"},{"start":12806.59,"end":12809.955,"text":"主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":12822.734,"end":12843.802,"text":"所以後來尤其是考機的部分因為預告的法案也引起了很多公務同仁的討論我記得我今年年初過年的時候還在處理這個新聞所以因此加上考試院在今年要面臨換屆所以後來也就是說把這個法案可能因為5月又新任部長才到任所以我們想說這個法案可能還要再做一些研討"},{"start":12844.755,"end":12849.817,"text":"所以就延宕下來了那我想請問一下如果現在比如說在右邊就是目前的公務人員考機法那個第12條規定就是什麼樣的狀況才能夠一次計兩大過處分因為這一次的謝易榮我們院長非常快的就宣布要給他計兩大過處分而且給他免職而且終身不能入用事實上這個其實並不是行政院長的職權"},{"start":12873.285,"end":12876.147,"text":"主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":12900.994,"end":12905.097,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":12929.392,"end":12954.867,"text":"我們擔心的是這一點我們應該不用擔心因為考試法本來用的方式比較是廣泛性那我們可以從這裡面去適用很多的個案那現在如果需要所以當初我們修法的時候有些特定的我們不喜歡的我們不應該出現的行為我們特別把它列出來所以就增列了那個修正法像酒駕啦、跟騷啦、霸凌啦這些單獨再增列一條那我想請問一下雖然這個"},{"start":12957.208,"end":12957.748,"text":"稍為回應社會對於公務人員在職場環境的期待"},{"start":12987.148,"end":12989.169,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":13007.014,"end":13008.875,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":13030.376,"end":13030.836,"text":"王宏輝議員"},{"start":13046.503,"end":13066.688,"text":"好,那我們今天就所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢了,詢答結束。那委員的質詢時要求提供的相關資料,會議書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會。那我們現在休息五分鐘,那再處理議程所列的預算的一個解凍案。休息了。"},{"start":13808.627,"end":13827.741,"text":"我們繼續開會現在進行議程所列預算解凍案處理前先請議事人員一併宣讀報告事項及討論事項之預算解凍案宣讀後再依程序來進行處理宣讀過程中與解凍案無關之列席機關代表可先行離席請宣讀"},{"start":13829.756,"end":13856.706,"text":"報告事項一及二全序部含為113年度中央政府總預算決議檢送決議一一般行政預算凍結70萬元書面報告檢送公務人員退休撫恤基金管理局決議一預算凍結書面報告請查招案等二案討論事項五考試院含為113年度中央政府總預算決議檢送決議一二十六及十七預算凍結書面報告請查招案"},{"start":13857.466,"end":13882.539,"text":"六、公務人員保障及培訓委員會含為113年度中央政府總預算決議檢送決議一預算凍結書面報告請查照案。宣讀完畢。好,現在處理我們報告事項第一、二案。OK,好,等一下。"},{"start":14308.868,"end":14326.675,"text":"好,那麼現在處理報告事項第一、二案有關全序部113年預算解凍書面報告案即已列入議程報告並經宣讀,作如下決定報告事項第一、二案均准予被查提報院會請問有沒有異議?如有異議,我們即予以通過"},{"start":14328.439,"end":14353.946,"text":"好,接下來報告事項處理完畢進行討論事項。因第一至四案關於114年度考試院之相關預算案,業已報告及詢談完畢,作如下決議,均另定期繼續審查。審查會委員針對本日議程所列討論事項第一至四案之預算提案,請於12月3日星期一中午12時前送交本會,於時不予受理。"},{"start":14355.677,"end":14374.448,"text":"那麼現在進行討論事項第五、六案預算解凍案有關考試院保訓會113年度預算解凍案前以一併宣讀請問各位有無異議?沒有如意做如下決議均準與動之提報院會好本次會議進行到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}