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條約締結法第三條跟第八條的規定是 條約締結法第三條就有關於涉及到國防外交財政經濟上面的利益這個沒有問題 這個是國家重要的事項不會有人否認這件事所以是不是應該要走條約的程序這我們請我們的條法師來回答"},{"start":139.741,"end":161.646,"text":"報告委員,這個根據條例第3條跟第8條的相關規定喔這主要是由主辦機關來認定說誰是主辦機關?就看這個案子本身的主辦機關對啊,現在這個案子的主辦機關是誰?這個我並不變,不變也有這個條法是來回答你不變回答,來請外交部長,現在這個案子的主辦機關是誰?報告委員,外交部長不在,我是次長"},{"start":163.184,"end":191.633,"text":"所以今天次長沒有辦法回答外交部權責應該要回答的問題是不是沒有我們這個還是我們這個談判團隊現在的談判團隊沒有啦你現在剛剛你前一個人跟我說這要看主辦機關嗎那我現在非常具體的問主辦機關是誰你說是外交部嗎如果是外交部主辦的話這到底是你們現在這個應該是符合條約的要件嗎這個沒有問題吧還是你們連這個現在都沒有辦法承認"},{"start":192.956,"end":211.843,"text":"我們現在還沒有辦法 但是如果說到時候我再唸一次 到現在還沒有辦法 我再唸一次條約立決法第三條的規定涉及到國防外交財政經濟上利益等國家重要事項目前台美之間這麼重要的協議不符合這個要件嗎"},{"start":214.899,"end":240.747,"text":"這個有這麼複雜嗎這還在談判的過程之中所以你認為說這不涉及到我們財政經濟上面重要的利益這大概牽涉到相關的最大的利益有涉及還是沒涉及有涉及那有涉及不就是條約嗎但是他用的具體的名稱是用條約還是協定我想這還是要請你看一下條約締結法第三條好不好符合下面要件之一就是條約了"},{"start":242.503,"end":268.353,"text":"阿你還在這邊打迷糊帳符不符合條約締結法第三條所定義應該要遵循條約的程序我們由這個調法師來做阿剛剛他就不敢講話啦報告委員最主要是因為現在還在談判的過程中所以呢不知道會不會涉及財政經濟上面的國家重要事項蛤 到現在還不知道到現在還不知道"},{"start":272.697,"end":295.154,"text":"如果不知道的話會引發國內這麼高的關注鄭麗君副院長有必要帶團去美國台灣是一個民主法治的國家我再提醒一次如果連今天這個基本的問題都沒有辦法回答的話下面的就更困難什麼叫下面的更困難來看一下當初蔡英文前總統她是怎麼說的"},{"start":300.607,"end":309.915,"text":"國家對岸貿易談判上從開啟談判 談判過程與談判結果的協議的審議都應該有國會的參與 同不同意同意不同意 是當然同意嘛 現在有嗎現在我們就是像我們今天來這個大院備詢其實就是一個全部來打空話就是當初蔡英文所講的開啟談判 談判過程都有國會的參與"},{"start":327.628,"end":352.046,"text":"是喔 當初蔡英文是這個意思喔真的是這樣嗎來 再往下看賴清德說一個對台灣政治經濟層面影響深遠的協議是以前以黑箱的方式沒有審慎評估各行各業所受的衝擊就送到國會這個就是指的是什麼 台灣才要送到國會啦這個是獨裁的心態賴清德講的贊不贊成"},{"start":354.585,"end":368.382,"text":"我們絕對尊重這個國會審議尊重國會審議嘛對啊 但今天國會問你到底是不是用條約的方式去進行審議連程序的問題都不敢回答再往下看這是鄭麗君當年講的"},{"start":370.492,"end":398.007,"text":"不是只有簽署之後的監督啊簽署之前的談判過程就要讓社會參與社會協商利害關係人必須被充分告知資訊政府必須要有衝擊影響評估報告國會必須要了解跟參與啊 這樣不贊成贊成 贊成 有做到嗎 有現在都有做到 是哇 你們還真敢講欸 我們經濟部也有你們還真的真敢講欸 對現在問所有的事情 全部"},{"start":398.908,"end":426.778,"text":"我們都還是在協商當中要爭取國家最高的利益我剛一開始就開宗明義講了全國人民當政府的後盾爭取國家最高的利益當然嘛當然那講了這兩句話了以後就是鄭麗君剛剛當初所講的喔談判之前談判中應該要有的參與喔來再帶你複習一下當初林佳龍啊是怎麼講的在談判的時候為什麼要有民間為什麼要有國會的參與"},{"start":430.27,"end":455.311,"text":"這個對於台灣民主制度的尊重非常非常的重要我不希望到最後到最後被宣布的時候宣布的具體內容事前事終沒有國會跟公民社會的參與今天川普總統其實應該算去天應該算昨天"},{"start":456.755,"end":484.429,"text":"在他的社交平台宣布了跟印尼達成的協議給他19%沒有錯看起來好像很好但是付出的代價是什麼付出的代價是150億美元能源的採購45億農產品的採購50價坡因而且要對美產品全面開放零關稅這個代價你覺得高不高很高很高台灣的代價會這麼高嗎不知道"},{"start":485.239,"end":506.051,"text":"我們希望這是一個我們整個總體經濟轉型的一部分之前也說到的是說我們希望這是一個優化我國的經貿體制的一個經濟所以你的評論只有這樣?我剛剛你說印尼負的代價很高我現在具體的問題台灣會不會負這麼高的代價?"},{"start":508.48,"end":533.092,"text":"這個在談判的過程之中說個實在的委員也知道這裡面還有很多的不確定性那最後齁談判條件的底線由誰決定賴清德總統自己拍板嗎這個由這個經貿談判小組經貿談判小組有這麼高的權限嗎沒有總統的授權可以簽下去可以答應嗎當然需要總統的授權對不對最後需要總統的授權嗎最後一個問題啦"},{"start":537.018,"end":552.913,"text":"鄭麗君回來的時候在公開資訊上因為我也沒什麼其他特殊的管道了她說雙方仍在洽談下一次實體談判的時間下一次實體談判的時間現在訂了沒有這我沒有相關的資訊經濟部有沒有相關的資訊8月1號之前經濟部有沒有相關的資訊下一次實體談判的時間雙方還在磋商目前還在磋商嗎還在磋商"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":301,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（10時33分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請外交部政次、經濟部次長。"],["陳次長明祺：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位早，時間的關係，不一一問候。我們目前為止，在對美的談判上，基本的立場，全民都願意做政府的後盾，爭取談判到最好的條件，這毋庸置疑啦，這個是我們討論問題最基本的基礎。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["黃委員國昌：在這個基礎上面，我前一段時間跟我在法學界過去一起合作過的朋友，我問了他們，說目前臺美在這麼重要的經貿談判過程當中，應該要踐行什麼法律程序？為什麼我會說很重要？從國防、從外交、從經濟、從農業各方面，大概有史以來，臺灣不會有這麼大衝擊的一個協議，但目前為止，我們都是非常片面的從媒體上面得到有說等於沒有說的訊息。在整個對外談判的過程當中，我相信臺灣是一個民主國家，一個民主國家應該要踐行的程序還是要踐行，因為它會牽涉到非常多人民的生計，以及我們到底要付出什麼樣子的代價。","我具體的請教，在目前我們對外談判、對美談判上面，我們是在走協議的程序、走條約的程序，還是走協定的程序？"],["陳次長明祺：對於這個問題還是要雙方達成協定，我說如果合乎條約締結法第三條跟第八條的規定……"],["黃委員國昌：是，條約締結法第三條，就有關於涉及到國防、外交、財政、經濟上面的利益，這個沒有問題，這是國家重要的事項，不會有人否認這件事嘛。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["黃委員國昌：所以是不是應該要走條約的程序？"],["陳次長明祺：這個問題我們是不是可以請條法司來回答？"],["黃委員國昌：可以，請。"],["許副司長柏逸：報告委員，根據條約締結法第三條跟第八條的相關規定，這主要是由主辦機關來認定……"],["黃委員國昌：誰是主辦機關？"],["許副司長柏逸：就看這個案子本身的主辦機關。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊，現在這個案子的主辦機關是誰？"],["許副司長柏逸：這個不便由條法司來回答。"],["黃委員國昌：你不便回答？來，請外交部長，現在這個案子的主辦機關是誰？"],["陳次長明祺：報告委員，外交部長不在，我是次長。"],["黃委員國昌：所以今天次長沒有辦法回答外交部權責應該要回答的問題，是不是？"],["陳次長明祺：沒有，我們這個談判團隊，現在的談判團隊……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啦，你現在……剛剛你前一個人跟我說這要看主辦機關嘛，那我現在非常具體的問主辦機關是誰，你說是外交部嘛，如果是外交部主辦的話，這到底是……你們現在這個應該是符合條約的要件嘛，這個沒有問題吧？還是你們連這個現在都沒有辦法承認？"],["陳次長明祺：我們現在還沒有辦法，但是如果說到時候……"],["黃委員國昌：我再唸一次，到現在還沒有辦法，我再唸一次，條約締結法第三條的規定是涉及到國防、外交、財政、經濟上利益等國家重要事項，目前臺美之間這麼重要的協議不符合這個要件嗎？這個有這麼複雜嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：這還在談判的過程之中，很多的過程……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你認為這不涉及到我們財政、經濟上面重要的利益？"],["陳次長明祺：這當然牽涉到相關最大的利益。"],["黃委員國昌：有涉及還是沒涉及？"],["陳次長明祺：有涉及。"],["黃委員國昌：有涉及，不就是條約嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：但它用的具體名稱是用條約還是協定，我想這還是要……"],["黃委員國昌：請你看一下條約締結法第三條，好不好？符合下面要件之一就是條約了，你還在這邊打迷糊仗！符不符合條約締結法第三條所定義應該要遵循條約的程序？"],["陳次長明祺：我們由條法司來做……"],["黃委員國昌：剛剛他就不敢講話了！"],["王司長良玉：報告委員，最主要是因為現在還在談判的過程當中……"],["黃委員國昌：所以呢？"],["王司長良玉：所以談判的結果……"],["黃委員國昌：不知道會不會涉及財政、經濟上面的國家重要事項？蛤！到現在還不知道？到現在還不知道？如果不知道的話，會引發國內這麼高的關注？鄭麗君副院長有必要帶團去美國？臺灣是一個民主法治的國家……"],["陳次長明祺：當然。"],["黃委員國昌：我再提醒一次，如果連今天這個基本的問題都沒有辦法回答的話，下面的就更困難，什麼叫下面的更困難？來看一下，當初蔡英文前總統是怎麼說的？國家對外貿易談判上，從開啟談判、談判過程與談判結果，協議的審議都應該有國會的參與，同不同意？同意不同意？"],["陳次長明祺：當然。"],["黃委員國昌：當然同意嘛，但現在有嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：現在就是像我們今天來大院備詢，其實就是一個……"],["黃委員國昌：全部來打空話，就是當初蔡英文所講的開啟談判、談判過程，都有國會的參與？是喔？當初蔡英文是這個意思喔？真的是這樣嗎？再往下看，賴清德說，一個對臺灣政治、經濟層面影響深遠的協議，是否以黑箱的方式，沒有審慎評估各行各業所受的衝擊就送到國會，這個指的是什麼？談完才要送到國會啦，這個是獨裁的心態，賴清德講的贊不贊成？"],["陳次長明祺：我們絕對尊重國會審議，民主的機制……"],["黃委員國昌：尊重國會審議嘛，但今天國會問你到底是不是用條約的方式進行審議，連程序的問題都不敢回答。","再往下看，這是鄭麗君當年講的，不是只有簽署之後的監督，簽署之前的談判過程就要讓社會參與、社會協商，利害關係人必須被充分告知資訊，政府必須要有衝擊影響評估報告，國會必須要了解跟參與，贊不贊成？"],["陳次長明祺：贊成。"],["黃委員國昌：贊成？有做到嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：有。"],["黃委員國昌：現在都有做到？"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["黃委員國昌：哇，你們還真敢講耶！"],["陳次長明祺：我們經濟部也有……"],["黃委員國昌：你們還真的敢講耶！"],["陳次長明祺：對於……"],["黃委員國昌：現在問所有的事情，全部我們都還是在協商當中，要爭取國家最高的利益，我剛才一開始就開宗明義講了，全國人民當政府的後盾，爭取國家最高的利益，當然嘛！"],["陳次長明祺：當然。"],["黃委員國昌：但講了這兩句話以後，就是鄭麗君當初所講的，談判之前、談判中應該要有的參與。","來，再帶你複習一下當初林佳龍是怎麼講的。在談判的時候為什麼要有民間？為什麼要有國會的參與？這個對於臺灣民主制度的尊重，非常非常的重要。"],["陳次長明祺：當然。"],["黃委員國昌：我不希望到最後被宣布的時候，宣布的具體內容，事前、事中沒有國會跟公民社會的參與。今天川普總統，其實應該算昨天，在他的社交平臺宣布了跟印尼達成的協議，給他19%沒有錯，看起來好像很好，但是付出的代價是什麼？付出的代價是150億美元能源的採購、45億農產品的採購、50架波音，而且要對美產品全面開放零關稅。這個代價你覺得高不高？"],["陳次長明祺：很高。"],["黃委員國昌：臺灣的代價會這麼高嗎？不知道。"],["陳次長明祺：我們希望這是我們整個總體經濟轉型的一部分，之前也說到，我們希望這是一個優化我國經貿體制的時機。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你的評論只有這樣？"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["黃委員國昌：剛剛你說印尼付的代價很高，我現在具體的問題：臺灣會不會付這麼高的代價？"],["陳次長明祺：這個在談判的過程之中，說實在的，委員也知道這裡面還有很多的不確定性。"],["黃委員國昌：那最後談判條件的底線由誰決定？賴清德總統自己拍板嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：這個由經貿談判小組以及……"],["黃委員國昌：經貿談判小組有這麼高的權限嗎？沒有總統的授權可以簽下去，可以答應嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：當然、當然會有……"],["黃委員國昌：當然需要總統的授權，對不對？"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["黃委員國昌：最後需要總統的授權嘛！"],["陳次長明祺：按照法律的規定……"],["黃委員國昌：好，最後一個問題，鄭麗君回來的時候，在公開資訊上，因為我也沒什麼其他特殊的管道，他說雙方仍在洽談下一次實體談判的時間。下一次實體談判的時間現在定了沒有？"],["陳次長明祺：這個我沒有相關的資訊，但應該會在8月1號之前……"],["黃委員國昌：經濟部有沒有相關的資訊？下一次實體談判的時間。"],["江次長文若：雙方還在磋商……"],["黃委員國昌：目前還在磋商嘛？"],["江次長文若：還在磋商確切的日期。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，好，加油啦！"],["陳次長明祺：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員質詢。","接下來由王定宇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-22","speakers":["黃仁","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","徐巧芯","馬文君","黃國昌","陳俊宇","林憶君","林倩綺","陳冠廷","李坤城","沈伯洋","林楚茵"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-07-16"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、國家安全局局長、經濟部次長、財政部次長、農業部次長、行政院經貿談判辦\n公室副總談判代表報告「台美對等關稅談判進度、預期成果、對我國可能之衝擊及因應策略」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}