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謝謝那再補充介紹林德虎委員"},{"start":2246.557,"end":2248.659,"text":"請行政院主計總處陳主計長進行業務報告及預算案內容的報告"},{"start":2262.157,"end":2277.288,"text":"主席、各位委員、李士吉先生今天應邀列席貴委員會報告本總處的業務概況還有114年度總預算案編列的情形之感榮幸本總處負責政府的預算、會計決算"},{"start":2279.55,"end":2302.191,"text":"統計調查和主計資訊等所以以下只就重要的一個業務概況和114年度的一個施政計畫重點來提出說明請各位委員指教主計業務辦理的一個概況的部分第一個主要是預算的業務編制完成114年度總預算案送給貴位來審議"},{"start":2303.772,"end":2323.654,"text":"那114年度總預算的籌編過程我們是兼顧國家發展需要和財政穩健的前提下預請行政院的施政方針然後將資源配置於均衡臺灣基礎建設等那所以我們在8月底能夠會編完成送貴院來一個審議"},{"start":2325.996,"end":2347.888,"text":"一百一十四年度中央總預算案稅入編三兆一千五百三十四億元稅出編三兆一千三百二十五億元稅入稅出相抵剩餘兩百零九億支應債務還本一千四百一十五億必須融資調度一千兩百零六億所以舉借債務七百零六月和移用以前年度稅金剩餘五百億予以彌平"},{"start":2350.95,"end":2364.62,"text":"二、編制114年度中央總預算附屬單位預算的部分一、114年度中央總預算附屬單位預算重計表領營業和會議營業的部分總計編列總收入7兆2595億、總支出6兆9848億、淨利2747億及繳庫2270億"},{"start":2374.207,"end":2393.716,"text":"70億所以也是在8月30隨同中央總預算案送大院來審議那我們第三個是編制完成中央前瞻基礎建設第五期特別預算案送請大院來審議前瞻基礎建設特別預算在109年同意編列8400億元期程至114年度總"},{"start":2399.779,"end":2408.162,"text":"一至四期總經費是7,697億以上與703億在編列所以第五期特別預算我們是實施期整114年度稅出總共編列703億包括軌道建設57億、水環境建設218億等所有需的財源全部用舉債來支應也是在本年8月30送請大院來審議"},{"start":2426.949,"end":2450.268,"text":"那詳細的表1、表2請參考表1、表2、表3請參考那在會計決算業務的部分那我們在本年4月30有關那個112年度中央總決算戶屬單位決算總計表中間查驗轉行政部那經審計部於今年的一個7月29完成審定"},{"start":2451.329,"end":2454.792,"text":"深化機關內部控制自我監督機制協助機關強化內部控制監督各項工作實際辦理各相關的教育訓練宣導相關的"},{"start":2468.623,"end":2487.359,"text":"官列、最新的官列和實務的一個做法那在統計調查業務方面我們辦理國民所得一個統計我們在今年的10月31公佈最新的國民所得統計那第三季的經濟成長是3.97那主要是人工智慧AI應用和智通產品"},{"start":2487.839,"end":2489.72,"text":"審計部臺北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市"},{"start":2507.028,"end":2509.129,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":2530.62,"end":2555.58,"text":"那告一八月預測的3.9那我們在一月二十九將最新的情勢來做更新的一個預測那經濟成長的概換表示請參閱那辦理物價統計的部分那我們是按月實際查價統計那一百一十三年一到十月的消費者物價指數比一百一十二年同期漲2.9那以食物類上漲3.6為最大"},{"start":2561.014,"end":2578.764,"text":"生產者物價指數113年1到4月PPI比112年通期漲1.23,下列相關表格請參閱。辦理人力供需各項抽樣調查,會掌握就業、失業薪資和人力供需資訊等。"},{"start":2581.545,"end":2589.929,"text":"按月辦理人力資源調查和收穫員工薪資調查提供最新的一個勞動市場共新的資訊那113年10月就業人數有1160比112年10月增加5.1失業人數是40.8萬"},{"start":2597.133,"end":2618.712,"text":"年減3千人、失業率是3.4、年降0.03那119年度工業和服務業全體受雇員工薪資每人經常性薪資是46,364比112年同期增加2.72那總薪資平均也增加4.11那經常性的薪資重位數是37,195"},{"start":2622.981,"end":2639.971,"text":"那相關的表格請參閱那辦理基本國事調查的部分那我們完成110年工業和服務業普查報告、課證編制業別和市縣別的一個報告並研擬114年度農林漁牧普查一個構想案方案"},{"start":2641.271,"end":2655.857,"text":"辦理家庭收支調查部或我們按年辦理家庭收支調查並以致俱進透過各部會統計資料精進相關的一個資料品質那112年調查結果每戶可支配所得"},{"start":2656.437,"end":2664.424,"text":"分五組來觀察可知配所最高20和最低20所得差距6.12比111年減0.03經理敘述是0.339比110年度也是微減0.003那這個部分政府的一轉之初所得倍數將達1.37"},{"start":2679.232,"end":2686.235,"text":"如果以每人來觀察每人可知備所的差距的一個倍數是112年是3.81比111年度減0.13那主計諮詢業務的部分是辦理中央和相關地方的預算會計諮詢的業務"},{"start":2696.478,"end":2702.86,"text":"所以我們會將中央和地方相關預算編制、預算執行、會計處理這些的會編業務來做支援的一個整合然後有一個中央政府稅基會計資訊管理系統相關的一個系統"},{"start":2714.043,"end":2738.901,"text":"來做一個徵修推廣和維運管理然後協助各機關完成114年度總預算案附屬單位預算和112年度總決算等相關的一個編制那我們第二個是辦理統計普查資料庫倉儲和開放的業務那我們主要是為推動資料治理確保機敏資料安全所以我們建置主計資料倉儲系統落實資料盤點和分級等一個業務"},{"start":2743.544,"end":2761.143,"text":"一百一三年已過期間的預算執行是一百一三年稅率預算一百三十八萬執行累計時收入是一百四十二萬四千比分配數增加四十二萬六稅數預算數的部分是十三億五千六百一十四萬兩千元"},{"start":2761.884,"end":2787.01,"text":"那截至10月底指分配數10億4千餘萬元累計支付10億350萬7千元那114年度的重要施政計畫重點稅基和會計業務還是一樣強化中程計劃預算制度促進資源有效運用提升支出效率維護財政機率等那配合施政重點我們參佐國外經濟情勢和過去時機未來市場的預估來"},{"start":2790.252,"end":2793.962,"text":"要合編115年中央總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":2795.723,"end":2816.268,"text":"及重計表加強各種基金的財務控管然後我們也關注政府會計的一個發展趨勢適時研修我國政府會計決算的相關的規制第四個我們也輔導機關去深化內部集合等監督的業務那在統計和普查抽樣調查業務的部分我們繼續編佈各項物價統計社會保障支出統計國民所得統計等"},{"start":2827.12,"end":2845.051,"text":"在研擬115年工業和物業普查構想的一個方案並辦理114年農林普查、試驗調查、人口和住宅普查方法的一個研析在主計諮詢業務方面我們持續推動中央地方共用稅計、會計諮詢系統協助各級政府、公務機關、特種機關如期編制115年度總預算案"},{"start":2850.874,"end":2859.257,"text":"那114年度預算的編列情形稅入還是114年度本處稅率稅入編列138萬8千元以113年度同那稅出的部分是編列14億6643萬1千元比去年增加1億1028萬主要是辦理農林漁業補查和試驗調查還有相關的一個調薪跟業務計劃和經費分數如下那請參閱"},{"start":2881.766,"end":2904.284,"text":"那大院第11屆委員會主辦的一個事項大院第11屆第一議會期委員會第三次和第14次全體委員會議員就本總處業務報告所提諮詢均與會後答覆則共持一項均與答覆貴委員會及相關委員在案以上為本處近期工作推展情形"},{"start":2905.285,"end":2934.202,"text":"之後將持續推進主計業務、換會主計人員決策工旅以協助推動各項業務再來我繼續報告就是有關114年度直轄市和縣市一般補助災害準備金、第二預備金和調整軍公交人員待遇準備的一個情形報告那第一個就是110年度我想主計長是先簡單扼要的一個報告好不好好"},{"start":2935.243,"end":2938.045,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2942.199,"end":2960.554,"text":"那這個部分就是說114年度編列直轄市和縣市一般補助2501災害准備金50億第二億備金80億及調整軍工匠人員大役99億那這個部分我們分數如下第一個直轄市一般性補助款編列2501比去年增加199億約8.6"},{"start":2967.76,"end":2974.985,"text":"請參閱。主要項目有教育補助659億、基本設施補助483億、社會福利補助617億、其他基本支出補助222億、平衡預算補助520億、那預注以後各縣市貨幣財源均比100以前的改制前的增加"},{"start":2988.267,"end":3009.758,"text":"災害准備金部分我們依規定編列今年編列50億比去年增加30億第二預備金的部分我們今年編列80億比去年增加6億軍公教調整待遇的部分總共是編列99億這個部分有分為"},{"start":3013.861,"end":3032.435,"text":"統籌的科目是99億那縣市就是補助大專院校有23億那所以這個部分補助縣市的部分是90億還有特別統籌支應10億地方負擔50億那以上的一個報告敬請各位委員指教和支持謝謝好謝謝我們接著請審計部陳審計長進行業務及預算內容的報告"},{"start":3043.666,"end":3046.911,"text":"那個審計長那個二要的報告好謝謝"},{"start":3049.844,"end":3073.245,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生今天應邀列席貴委員會報告審計部業務概況及114年度預算案編列情形注感榮幸本部依法掌理政府及首屬機關財務之審計多年來承蒙大院委員的支持與鼓勵各項審計工作均能按照計畫執行藉此"},{"start":3074.326,"end":3084.378,"text":"竟表由衷的感謝113年度依法審核中央和地方7950個機關單位收支金額兩兆以延遲執行之將審計業務、辦理概況及114年度預算編列情形檢要報告如此"},{"start":3093.589,"end":3113.064,"text":"一、審計業務辦理概況一、完成112年度總結算及特別結算之審核一、112年度中央政府總結算及附屬單位結算及重計表中央政府嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困振興特別結算本部以依法"},{"start":3114.656,"end":3127.527,"text":"依憲法第105條規定期限完成審核。祝各縣市政府年度總預算一經各地方審計處事在法定期限內完成審核。提出重要審核意見2397項。"},{"start":3134.212,"end":3157.82,"text":"二、完成113年度中央總預算半年結算之查核本部以依依結算法第26條之一規定期限完成查核並於113年9月27日提出半年結算查核報告於大院且各主轄市政府半年結算已經本部各地方"},{"start":3159.28,"end":3169.424,"text":"審計處在法定期限內完成查核提出重要查核意見63項三、審計綜合績效113年度各項審計業務執行結果截至10月底子審核各機關112年度結算依法修正稅率收入結算增累14億元減累11億元"},{"start":3184.485,"end":3208.395,"text":"依法修正稅出、租出決算暨增列28億元、減列44億元二、績效性審計考核各機關之績效報告監察案者53案提出重要建議改善意見於各機關者共計280項任何有可能提升效能增進公共利益提出建議意見923項提出議警性意見224項"},{"start":3214.517,"end":3233.277,"text":"三、稽查財務上次維修、報請監察案處理者10案、移送司法機關遵辦者6案、通知各機關查明處分者111案。四、更系優化審核報告編報架構及報導方式,除系深化、發展重要施政議題的查核專章。"},{"start":3234.438,"end":3256.957,"text":"二、推動審核報告、過列結算審定表的電子化。三、專章後編行政機關優良實務案例的推廣擴散情形。五、積極推動數位審計的發展與應用,除息建構、雲端資料中心、應用人工智慧AI技術、應用新興資通信科技。"},{"start":3263.142,"end":3276.472,"text":"護族、世衛審計人力六、更系推展公民差異審計強化諸行專家協助徵詢民眾意見近3年度已完成專家諸行計4,478次公開徵詢民眾意見建設計91件"},{"start":3287.082,"end":3294.265,"text":"二、透過網站主動提供審計資訊。第三年發布1689個重要審計資訊。七、年度施政計劃及預算執行進行。110年度施政計劃既有22項重要計劃項目均按一定規劃辦理。"},{"start":3307.912,"end":3335.135,"text":"二、本部及所屬113年度預算執行情形本部及所屬113年度稅出預算截至10月底值累計分配14億億元累計支付13億億元佔分配次的94%二、114年度施政計畫重點六、實監督一、履行財務課則、強化洞察、增進公共利益、邁向前瞻、順化助理縱效"},{"start":3336.598,"end":3361.896,"text":"四、創新思維進行承得導向。三、114年度預算案編列情形稅入部分本部及所屬114年度稅入預算共編列251萬元。二、稅出部分本部及所屬114年度稅期預算案共編列18億元。按各機關單位預算分數如下,審計部的單位預算編列13億元。"},{"start":3364.158,"end":3367.041,"text":"臺北市審計處單位預算編列8457萬元新北市審計處單位預算編列7043萬元臺北市審計處單位預算編列6647萬元臺中市審計處單位預算編列7399萬元"},{"start":3385.442,"end":3388.104,"text":"審計部臺南審計處單位預算編列6912萬億元、高雄市審計處單位預算編列8335萬元"},{"start":3397.087,"end":3415.397,"text":"審計工作的主要目的在於促使政府健全財務秩序、匡正財務紀律、增進財務效能以協助國家良善助理本部當初期加強推動各項審計業務以善計審計職責以上報告僅請主席、各位委員、理事、先生、主教謝謝"},{"start":3417.018,"end":3439.971,"text":"好,謝謝沈記長,現在開始詢答先作以下的先告每位出席的委員花言時間是8分鐘,必要的時候得以延長2分鐘每位列席的委員花言時間是4分鐘那今天上午10點,那個截止花言登記現在依登記的一個順序,請登記第一位的林德虎委員質詢"},{"start":3448.945,"end":3448.965,"text":"陳審計長陳主計長"},{"start":3467.594,"end":3490.529,"text":"委員好主席長你好主席長我想最近有媒體報導由於AI熱潮加持出口表現優於預期那明年成長的展望有機會從8月那時候預估3.26%上修但是川普宣布將在明年1月20號上任後對墨西哥課徵25%關稅那恐會重創高度集中"},{"start":3496.673,"end":3514.876,"text":"當地的臺灣AI的這些伺服器的供應鏈那我請問主計長這個主計總處的經濟成長預估是不是有評估過川普關稅避雷政策對臺灣影響下最後所呈現的數字有沒有"},{"start":3515.803,"end":3530.199,"text":"因為我們初步的評估就是這個部分的影響大概會在2026以後才會比較有展現出來所以初期的部分初估以目前來講我們8月份預估是經濟成長113年是3.9但是可能"},{"start":3534.624,"end":3561.132,"text":"以第四季的狀況如果維持的話以前三季的表現狀況我們大概應該是有望來能夠再往上提升因為亞洲開放銀行9月下旬曾經指出臺灣出口成長都集中在AI相關的產品再加上地緣政治的風險恐怕會對出口及成長造成下行的風險"},{"start":3564.534,"end":3575.561,"text":"請問主計長國內目前是不是除了AI相關產業有成長的前景外其餘產業是不是都面臨停滯而且負成長"},{"start":3576.994,"end":3603.817,"text":"是不是這樣子?沒有,因為目前第一個就是說在投資的一個成長方面我們也是很好了那再來就是消費的部分也是至少成長也不錯那你認為其他產業都還不錯是吧?以目前來講它的狀況是一直逐漸在復甦當中復甦當中?那其他產業?船廠也是這樣也有一直逐漸尤其投資的一個部分它都有成長很顯著的一個成長"},{"start":3604.417,"end":3623.386,"text":"因為其他產業的競爭力如果沒有辦法同時提升那對國內貧富差距的改善、薪資結構的合理化未來的情況是不是會變得更困難?會不會?因為以我們目前薪資的一個預估加上我們現在這裡從政府帶頭"},{"start":3626.545,"end":3648.459,"text":"我們是把那個相關的一個約僱人員相關那個受僱員工的一個相關的一個薪資比如說承攬契約的我們都逐漸調到除了基本薪工資調整之外我們也調到了三萬一所以整個帶頭來帶領企業把薪資來整個提升所以原則上應該不會因為我們一到九月都是成長的"},{"start":3649.88,"end":3659.093,"text":"主計長因為媒體報導主計總處在今年4月公布國人家庭財富分配的調查報告因為兩個關鍵數字的增減印證一直以來多數人的憂心"},{"start":3665.242,"end":3665.602,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3682.057,"end":3698.039,"text":"那有幾個問題我想請教主計長請問主計長對於中產階級的形式和實質你認為應該數十年不變還是必須隨著時代社會的改變而有所變化你的看法"},{"start":3698.817,"end":3726.638,"text":"我再跟委員報告就是我們那個國戶調查那個部分30年的調查的方法和現在的調查的方法是不一樣兩個數據你用來比較那這是因為比較的基礎不一樣所以兩個導致結果那另外一個就是所謂講到的所謂的集體係數的一個問題那是一般這種一個差距我們跟外國一些相關的比較我們也不是最高的那你認為"},{"start":3727.819,"end":3738.643,"text":"你認為30年前跟30年後這個整個就是30年前的中產階級跟30年後現在的中產階級你認為有哪些狀況的差異呢?"},{"start":3742.079,"end":3770.368,"text":"因為這個部分像我們比如說我們現在都是用實際用資料庫的一個數據去做整合嘛那所以相當的數據就會比較精準那這以前30年度做調查的一個基礎他可能在調查的過程中很多的數字是比較粗略的那所以這兩個是不可同日而已但是你這種的一個差距那是一個自由經濟發展必然的一個趨勢也是一定是有相關的一個這樣的一個結果啦"},{"start":3772.209,"end":3782.773,"text":"所以也是必須再來加上我們一些將來一些房產的一些相關的一個成長這部分也是必然會有一些的一個差距主計長因為那個"},{"start":3786.938,"end":3795.622,"text":"從疫情開始到結束直到現在因為整個經濟情況的惡劣中產階級面臨緩貧的這種現象而主計總處今年的國人家庭財富分配調查報告也讓外界對過國"},{"start":3808.669,"end":3815.034,"text":"國內出現中產階級緩貧現象的一些質疑請問主計長你認為臺灣社會有沒有中產階級緩貧的這種趨勢?因為目前來看其實並不是那麼的明顯如果有你認為這主要的原因是什麼?"},{"start":3831.052,"end":3856.867,"text":"那這個部分我們也是要去做進一步的研究和探討然後相關的一個如果需要有相關的一個政策來因應這我們也會提出來建議因為如果要是沒有那為什麼臺灣30年貧富差距會拉大而且所謂中產階級收入支出的能力沒有辦法因為各種物價成長的能力也跟著增加現在是這種問題"},{"start":3858.937,"end":3872.409,"text":"事實上如果說薪資的一個成長的部分即使我們薪資的成長是已經高過物價但是有高過物價嗎?有,一到九月的部分成長有高過物價因為中國經濟出現中產反貧的現象中產階級或許和臺灣經濟不能相提並論但是臺灣社會貧富差距"},{"start":3884.419,"end":3901.913,"text":"讓中產階級實質的收支能力可以說是30年啦!瘦身有成啦!那我請問主計長你認為臺灣貧富差距有沒有縮小的可能?有沒有辦法?事實上我們是以我們家庭收支在調查我們這個"},{"start":3903.974,"end":3931.533,"text":"譬如說以五等位來分的話這中間的差距是在縮短然後我們也有透過一些相關的一個福利政策所以我們會讓這些移轉的支出來輔助說讓我們這些的一個差距能夠再縮短那你認為未來會不會越來越大換句話說就是算沒有緩貧是不是有可能這個因為貧富差距過大讓中產階級逐漸的消失會不會這種狀況"},{"start":3933.034,"end":3961.494,"text":"應該也不至於但是現在我們政策的部分我們可以針對這個部分來做一個加強讓它不會有發生這樣的一個現象主計長因為中產階級的憂心是如何拉高薪資是絕對的關鍵那因為家庭財富的堆疊薪資所得絕對是重要的成分30年來貧富差距拉大是事實那中產階級整個收支萎縮也是事實"},{"start":3962.535,"end":3976.001,"text":"那多數中產階級薪資所得停職更是事實對於中產階級薪資所得成長的停職這個收支能力萎縮的現況我請問主計長你認為這種狀況是不是不可逆"},{"start":3981.556,"end":3996.112,"text":"是不是不可逆?應該也不會啦,這個也是我們努力的一個方向那如果是,那是不是可以宣告中產階級消失?如果不是,那請問政府解荒到底是要怎麼做?"},{"start":3996.713,"end":4009.62,"text":"所以政府都帶頭在調薪所以本身只有調薪一途就對了那還有一個相關的一個就是本身因為其實我們薪資的一個結構主要是因為我們的產業的結構不一樣現在都投資在"},{"start":4012.141,"end":4027.85,"text":"資本的一個投資所以在薪資的方面佔比就會比較偏低那這個部分呢因為也是時事所趨啦但是這個部分我們也是盡量能夠說希望能夠鼓勵各產業能夠來提高相關的一個薪資這幾個部分都有在討論"},{"start":4028.59,"end":4049.565,"text":"因為面對薪資結構的問題國安會主委劉靜清表示光是拉抬基本工資改變不了結構就本席了解政府目前所採取創造並培養更多高薪就業機會透過增加的稅收來加強社會福利來補足、附加"},{"start":4050.886,"end":4074.228,"text":"價值、低競爭力的這些產業負擔那我請問主計長這種節償補短的做法你認為是治標還是治本因為這種是要有一個鼓勵啦鼓勵產業所以一般國化會他會有一個相關的補助補助產業他或者是相關的補助薪水來提高一些員工的薪水我覺得這部分也是可行的"},{"start":4074.69,"end":4085.646,"text":"那長遠來看如果只能治標沒有辦法一籠聚籠那請問這種捕破網的做法是不是只能繼續下去依您看法"},{"start":4086.577,"end":4104.748,"text":"原則上我們就是在現有的一個裁員下我們盡量能夠做到讓這個部分能夠盡量來改善這個部分這樣齁 主計長我最後一個問題齁臺南市議員執行提到感嘆吃不起臺南一顆高麗菜210塊喔"},{"start":4107.149,"end":4122.061,"text":"據本席了解,似乎癥結在於品種但是價格決定更是取決於市場國內這幾年的物價波動的狀況從原產地到終端零售似乎不時有爭議的狀況"},{"start":4124.758,"end":4139.97,"text":"那像這幾年蛋價、菜價的異常價格的頻傳那請問主計長你認為問題是出在哪裡是供需的私人還是供給銷售部透明你認為呢?"},{"start":4141.084,"end":4168.814,"text":"因為供需的部分其實主要是受到颱風的影響或者一些那個災害的影響所以會有一些比較偏高但是經過過後以後大部分都回復到原來那這個部分可見我們在供需上其實是沒有問題的那你認為像行政院穩定物價小組對解決這些異常物價的事件到底能不能事先有一個預防或者是只能夠收拾善後"},{"start":4169.811,"end":4181.262,"text":"因為他都事先會做一些的一個調整包括油價的部分這個部分都會進行討論然後提出相關的一個對策所以這個部分也是一直都在進行中那個主計長因為你原來"},{"start":4184.765,"end":4184.805,"text":"吳炳瑞委員質詢"},{"start":4221.052,"end":4221.572,"text":"財政部國務署陳署長"},{"start":4237.386,"end":4265.209,"text":"委員好我看了你們今天財政部的報告那裡面有寫到最近五年就是108年度到112年度整體地方政府財政收支決算審定數都有剩餘是總數剩餘嗎總數剩餘有沒有個別縣市比較特別的應該有一兩個縣市是減少金門跟桃園是減少"},{"start":4265.988,"end":4291.672,"text":"是虧損什麼是有那個短處總數是剩餘總數是剩餘那怎麼樣的縣市會短處金門跟桃園金門的財政狀況這麼好他也在短處他可能因為金門、桃園大概都是近幾年他們一些公共建設支出項目比較多金門的公共建設還是金門的社會福利高於其他的縣市這個"},{"start":4295.069,"end":4296.431,"text":"因為統計的數字是整體的這五年來有119億到608億元之間的這個"},{"start":4305.8,"end":4317.224,"text":"這個剩餘另外整體地方政府財政的比例由103年103年其實是10年11年前然後到112年就整個10年間它的占比從5.56%的負債降到3.69%所以得出結論說地方財政狀況已有改善那我就要問一個問題每一年都剩餘"},{"start":4336.172,"end":4362.934,"text":"那如果沒有說要多做什麼事啊從中央要多撥要現在他們那個財政收支劃分法一口氣要拿那麼多錢去啊是要幹什麼啊就已經剩餘了啊是啊就已經有錢了啊啊有錢了還要多拿六千多下去啊每一個管理局分分的如果你事權沒有下放光拿這個錢去是要幹什麼如果目前的事權沒有改變的話"},{"start":4365.264,"end":4370.968,"text":"目前大概就是去降低他的我想說這個應該有政務官來回答請主計長主計長你剛有聽到政府年來平均的總體"},{"start":4387.233,"end":4414.44,"text":"有100多億到600多億之間的盈餘當然這麼多的縣市少數因為公共建設支出比較多一兩個縣市有minus其他都是plus連續五年都這樣那我剛剛那個問題如果你事權沒有下放現在依照統籌分配稅款的這些版本要多拿6000多億去是要幹什麼"},{"start":4415.532,"end":4432.659,"text":"是,這個部分我再補充說明一下這個部分如果說6000多億分下去因為它又指定說補助一般縣市2501又要維持那這樣子就有將近9000多億要下放到地方那這個部分我們會談到的就是說其實這樣總數會達到21%"},{"start":4436.441,"end":4454.998,"text":"財源21會移到地方去但是我們相對的其實當初當初裡面有11%是屬於省政府的業務那事前並沒有相對跟著移走所以這個部分就會影響到很大所以你聽清楚我的問題再回答嘛我就去說過去的5年每一年的地方的政府"},{"start":4456.699,"end":4476.106,"text":"財政總數從119億到648億那長期的債務也從5.56%降到3.69個百分點也降了很多了等於是降到五分之二了剩下原來的五分之三了財政狀況一直在好轉"},{"start":4477.659,"end":4500.547,"text":"那我舉個例子某個縣市今年連續5年財政都是正的結算之後都是正的這個時候如果市權不增加突然之間要給他很多錢那他要怎麼辦我也不知道這個政府要怎麼辦啊因為市權如果沒有增加他拿到那麼多錢他要花到哪裡去啊"},{"start":4501.398,"end":4529.241,"text":"因為以我們來出估就是如果說他用我們統籌統籌分配稅和一般縣市補助下去他自己自有的財源都不用用他自己的財源就會多出來那多出來這個部分沒有相關的事權下去去分配那包括全民健保還有包括老農津貼這相關的經費現在都是中央但是這涉及到修正相關的一個法規這個包括那個地質法包括那個"},{"start":4529.921,"end":4558.022,"text":"所以我一再在這邊講說錢跟權事跟要做的事跟你要用的錢要整體考量而不是光只有考慮於錢那事情大家沒有分配那這個時候你突然之間增加那麼多錢你也不知道要怎麼用啊因為我們這個不是說我可以把它拿到銀行去存那個概念不能夠用個人的理財來看一個政府"},{"start":4559.316,"end":4560.577,"text":"好 那先請妳回座是 謝謝來 請陳審計長好 審計長委員好"},{"start":4572.813,"end":4592.981,"text":"我看你的那個結算報告各個縣市的財政狀況最糟糕的還是苗栗縣對縣市來講對啦縣市啦他不但這個長期就一年以上的非自償債務所謂的我們現在講的償債是207億他甚至為了要去"},{"start":4595.291,"end":4614.938,"text":"復合那個規範一年以下的就是未滿一年的這個債務所謂的短債它有143億事實上短債這麼多它是匪夷所思的因為它的短債就比它的幾乎要跟它一年之間的縣政府的預算要相同那現在總統常債短債加起來350億這樣算是財政有改善了嗎"},{"start":4619.704,"end":4647.882,"text":"他最慘的時候最低迷的時候是400多億所以400幾億差不多102年的400是改善了一些但是進度很慢而且離目標還很遠是不是離目標還很遠離那個要行政院的財政控管還有一段距離行政院控管他的財政那你們審計部對這樣的事情有什麼樣的看法到底什麼時候他才能夠正常"},{"start":4648.649,"end":4677.537,"text":"因為像處理這個我以前像這種有時候都出來的特別統籌會不會可以稅款下去的時候有時候中央有時候要主定他還債中央指引還債會員他就會很窮他就跟你講說我年中獎金發不出來我什麼東西讓不出來公關工程的那個到期款我都付不出來等於我們要支付轉給我們行政專案還替他付"},{"start":4678.337,"end":4706.043,"text":"那個特別統籌的時候是另外增加出來的有時候財政狀況好的時候像說稅收增加的時候實際收入數比預算數增加很多的時候類似我們今年其實每一年的年底這幾年都一樣都還會有一條特別的錢給這些縣市政府這個時候你建議要強制他還債這個錢因為他有欠人擔保債還有超過那個法定債限所以像這種的就要給他還債"},{"start":4706.883,"end":4728.794,"text":"那這有沒有法律的依據?這個行政院下公示的時候就要早期啊我們就像那個健保欠債的時候我們下公示說先玩健保好那我相信主計長在這邊他也有聽到這個建議當然這是審計部的意見再來也不是只有我們苗栗市的宜蘭縣的財政任務看起來也很不行"},{"start":4729.914,"end":4747.457,"text":"他已經從管住現在已經我們的審計處有通知他說你有現金你有負債你把它還了後來現在他已經脫離這個債限管住可是你知道嗎他一年以上的這個資產債務的餘額他現在償債就是109億短債還有70億總共183億遠超過他一年的預算"},{"start":4757.329,"end":4758.17,"text":"這個我們還在繼續管控讓我們的宜蘭縣審計處看到有機會的時候就要它還債"},{"start":4766.912,"end":4791.867,"text":"那我在這邊很多年都一直跟你講苗栗縣它非正式編制員工的那一些約聘、雇還有工友、技工什麼東西用太多那個部分的管控怎麼樣呢那個是現在1000多人有增加100多人但是我們查了以後是因為它是都是增加社工人力社會安全網的人力我們這是中央主定它要增加所以相對"},{"start":4792.968,"end":4813.985,"text":"中央要下去的時候可能要叫他一併檢討也不要說一下子增加這麼多當然啦當然這個是要慢慢檢討但是以前就是已經提了非常多年了他以前就一再的被指出他這個你剛剛講說中央要他加的那個不算在這個編制內那個算是他合法的編制內的喔我講的是合法編制外的還一大堆啊一千多人"},{"start":4815.113,"end":4829.043,"text":"所以這些部隊也拜託你們審計單位也要注意這個事情啊要不斷的提醒他差不多每人都給他審計意見給他審計意見他如果不參考也沒有用請監察院來調查一下我們會把這個案子呈報監察院好謝謝你齁加油齁好謝謝好謝謝秉瑞委員接著我們請賴世保委員質詢"},{"start":4859.46,"end":4860.641,"text":"有請主計長主計長委員好主計長委員好"},{"start":4876.385,"end":4890.895,"text":"這個針對美國的總總統川普說要針對十大的進口國都賺美國很多錢包括最多的墨西哥、中國大陸、加拿大、德國等等臺灣在裡面"},{"start":4893.527,"end":4918.882,"text":"科的關稅現在一般來講科10%到25%一般估算對臺灣可能會科10%臺灣目前大概科3%左右要加到10%這個對GDP會不會有影響它是會有影響但是問題對我們會不會有影響會有影響但是問題你們有沒有估算過它如果科10%有多少"},{"start":4920.217,"end":4932.313,"text":"這個部分目前還沒有因為大概他影響數會產生在影響會在115年來顯現那這個部分到時候我們也會進行估算相關的一個估算現在還沒有估算對臺灣是利多還利空"},{"start":4936.238,"end":4960.72,"text":"應該都有啦兼併啦不是說一次都是利空或者是利多這樣子還是應該...可是我們的其他官員都說是其他官員都說是利多咧說啊都靠別人的所以台灣不會靠到轉單給我們絕對是利多影響的層面目前還必須要再觀察啦會不會有全程、全球的同盟"},{"start":4963.349,"end":4989.431,"text":"呃這個部分也是應該要看後面他一個整個的你是說1997年亞洲金融風暴怎麼產生的嗎?泰國豬開始大幅貶值貶了50%亞洲的貨幣全部近鄉相貶產生亞洲金融風暴現在看起來會有這個味道喔因為中國大陸已經說了如果美國真的真的課"},{"start":4990.959,"end":5012.439,"text":"不要多20%以上的關稅他們GDP會減少一趴中國大陸他們就用貶值啊人民幣貶值來跟你對付各國都會你扣我關稅我就貶給你看讓我的東西相對便宜你幫我加關稅嘛我就貶給你看"},{"start":5017.045,"end":5034.363,"text":"所以這邊是全球會競相的貶他的貨幣以至於你可以看喔從川普當選到現在幾乎美金獨搶道理在這裡我很擔心啊各國的貨幣競相的銷貶臺幣最近也在貶啊臺幣在貶啊這個你擔不擔心啊"},{"start":5040.709,"end":5067.605,"text":"我們還是應該要有積極作為啦而不是說在那邊擔心當然我們必須要事先有些相關的防範的措施那然後再看你認為今年GDP可以到多少今年GDP因為我們今年GDP大概初估當初在8月時候初估是3.9啦現在呢因為狀況現在不錯所以會往上修但是我們目前在大概應該明後天會做一個花佈所以應該今年會超過4%"},{"start":5071.027,"end":5084.956,"text":"超過4%今年CPI呢?CPI目前因為我們大概預估是2.19到2.17左右2.1 因為超過楊金榮總裁的百分之二目前來講因為幾個颱風連續來影響是有一點在蔬果方面我們來看請那個審計長一起上來好不好主計長先不要離開"},{"start":5103.615,"end":5124.506,"text":"委員好審計長不然那個主計長一起先問主計長是請問你啊勞動部你有沒有主計室的主任有沒有有有主計條片勞發署有沒有主計處的主任有沒有有"},{"start":5125.746,"end":5152.276,"text":"每分署有沒有主計處的主任有沒有?有!好!每分署每個月3萬塊電費為了謝宜柔她就這樣整個漂亮漂亮漂亮這樣電費一共要開3萬你們的主計主任是幹什麼的啊?為什麼給他用呢?我們的主計各個單位的主計主任等於是擺設了首長要怎麼用就怎麼用"},{"start":5154.177,"end":5172.688,"text":"離得不離你們：而且拉發署還用安定基金400萬去辦演唱會替徐明初辦演唱會啊你們的主任是幹什麼的啊?執辦的啊?你們的主任啥事也不做這個錢要經過主計是同意耶主計長啊,要經過主計是同意耶"},{"start":5179.228,"end":5207.95,"text":"一般電費來講的話啦你們都不管喔不是因為它是業務單位提出來核銷嘛那我們就一個內部審核就它一個內容進行審查還有包括有審查嗎根本沒有審查啊這是現在的主計派各個單位的主計是形同虛設讓各個單位的首長予取予求目前是這個樣子啊"},{"start":5209.065,"end":5235.848,"text":"他可以用4百萬辦演唱會而且挪用了勞動基金請問可以挪用勞動基金嗎?可以嗎?這個部分就是因為他勞動基金他本身也有編列啦編列媒體的一個宣傳會啦那是媒體宣傳喔許民村的演唱會是媒體宣傳喔這麼偉大喔這個部分因為他本身當初這一個在現在被剪掉調查了啊你們是是我們還沒做調查結果你們的主計"},{"start":5237.689,"end":5251.896,"text":"主計、主計長啊你要去整頓一下各單位的主計是形同虛設啊是等於不好啊我們會加獎加獎行政單位的首長要怎麼用就怎麼用你們坑都不敢坑一聲來請教審計長好委員好"},{"start":5255.871,"end":5281.96,"text":"我就請教你啊毛暴鼠用了400萬用暗定基金可不可以?可不可以用對不對?我們在查我們在瞭解什麼時候可以出來?因為這個我們已經函行給他差不多因為函行他要看他的資料來以後我們會分析、會研究、會做一個速達的處理"},{"start":5283.686,"end":5309.788,"text":"一個北府署的署長他的裡面的弄了一些水水的這樣一個月3萬的電費你們可以接受嗎?這個我們還沒就完全了解因為我們公文已經去了資料還沒來所以我大概一般什麼時候可以出來?差不多一個月內會出來一個月會的話現在檢調已經介入調查了我們會檢日如果有那個我們會訂送檢調處理"},{"start":5312.51,"end":5335.327,"text":"你自己審計長做這麼久了你覺得可以動用安地基金來辦演唱會嗎?可以嗎?剛剛我有做這個了解他是在救安基金底下有一個科目叫促進國民就業裡面用一個普遍科目有一個政令宣導所以許民春去辦演唱會就政令宣導"},{"start":5336.207,"end":5340.871,"text":"臺北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處"},{"start":5363.044,"end":5364.365,"text":"臺北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市"},{"start":5380.602,"end":5406.834,"text":"還是掛羊頭賣狗咧以假借正義宣導行個人的演唱會之事這個因為沒有我們給他的公示他還沒有給我們答案這個全民關注一個月太久了兩個禮拜可以吧兩個禮拜可以吧因為審計的查核有一定的促進啦你也不能因為我們也是希望勿忘勿重"},{"start":5408.596,"end":5412.379,"text":"主計長請回答,審計部你對臺電的決算,寫了40頁40信上,批評臺電你的決算報告比如說,我這樣幾個,第一個,離電風電成效未如預期第二個,大潭電號電廠7號機"},{"start":5433.191,"end":5452.583,"text":"基礎發電低於目標,總共這樣一兩三十公尺,列了比較重要的。然後呢,你可以看喔,我們累積的虧損,當年料啊,洗腦啊,這個有啦,進行順利累積虧損,"},{"start":5455.124,"end":5480.54,"text":"這樣的情況審計部你對於臺電我們已經前後給幾千億了大概給前面加一加到給五千億了吧還一直虧無比鬥啊他現在又要一千億的追加預算一千億的一個增資你的態度怎麼樣我們是希望臺電要強化他整個的體質"},{"start":5482.495,"end":5500.007,"text":"改善所以剛剛那個因為能源對我們很重要所以那個主要進度落後我們都提醒所以我們那裡面的一些族群進度落後的我時間到了我要你簡短回答你答應不答應在這個時候再給他兩千億啦剛剛說這樣啦答應不答應"},{"start":5505.595,"end":5533.672,"text":"因為我們是希望他的體質健全以後也要他進行整個財務改善因為多多少少他有一些不經濟輸出像駐船會我們一查他那個一年我們可以替他省掉十幾億什麼會?那個印美的在那裡等候印美配?配十幾億?"},{"start":5535.913,"end":5550.339,"text":"在頒令的時候我們說所以你的意思就是他沒有做好成本控制之前不應該給他這個錢我們是希望他我們是如果能夠兼顧他的整個需要希望他能夠改善他的體制"},{"start":5550.879,"end":5571.403,"text":"改善體質什麼樣體質就是它每一個多多少少都會有一些省失所以我們是有希望報出損失損失最大的就是8年來核電平均貢獻2400億它不要用核電最大的問題在這個地方在這個之前沒有解決之前不能夠給它2000億而且我再講一遍"},{"start":5575.584,"end":5604.087,"text":"他都說他可以借錢啊臺電可以借錢他借的很多喔他借很多我知道借1.6億了再多不愁歷史很少十幾億而已借幾十幾億兩百多億兩百多億他都查過了借一那真的是全部兩百多億啦借一千億才要十幾億而已啦對不對那個是這樣對啦十幾億而已啦所以借錢借錢可以解決嗎我們希望不要用借錢解決問題"},{"start":5605.228,"end":5626.183,"text":"那你要問老百姓的錢,我們不同意啊好,謝謝,謝謝賴司法委員這個沈記長好好盯著臺電,你對臺電你對他的平價40月的缺失這樣的缺失還敢要兩千億有種心腸希望我們,因為能源對我們很重要不能夠再拿那麼多錢啊好,謝謝,謝謝賴司法委員接著請郭國文委員質詢"},{"start":5643.622,"end":5645.806,"text":"現在主席有請主計長跟審計長主計長跟審計長審計長委員好"},{"start":5656.731,"end":5679.16,"text":"主席長前兩天主計總處有公開一個記者會有就是說我們這一個薪資的差距指標這個中位數的部分呢2023年的部分已經降到4.05倍也就是說2012年以來降低的新低嘛對不對某個程度就是說我們貧富差距似乎啊已經有"},{"start":5680.722,"end":5691.422,"text":"緩和改善當然我是覺得個人一直認為這個薪資的指標這個非常的重要你有沒有信心將來在2024之後低於這一個市啊"},{"start":5692.216,"end":5720.708,"text":"事實上這個貧富的一個差距我們也一直都有在努力所以有很多的移轉支出也是讓他的一個一個差距在縮小那所以目前我們都是從縮小的一個狀態來因為本席是要就較於您的是部分因為前天就是卓院長有提到所謂的二上一下一平衡的數據經濟成長上人均GDP上然後呢失業率下然後GPI一平"},{"start":5720.868,"end":5729.372,"text":"中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政"},{"start":5739.377,"end":5758.928,"text":"主計總處能不能把這個列為你們今天來統計最重要的5個指標好不好第一個就要跟主計長說明了這個有些相關指標其實是非常重要也讓院長知道一下還有一個貧富差距指標是重要的麻煩做一個轉達主計長你稍作休息一下我問一下審計長"},{"start":5764.139,"end":5785.249,"text":"審議長本期就效於您最近的政府機關不論是中央跟地方都收到許許多多霸凌的事件特別本期在開完記者會之後就收到很多檢舉特別是公部門我問你一下審計部門當中到底有沒有察覺這個問題"},{"start":5787.096,"end":5798.907,"text":"您有沒有做過類似的這個這個調查報告有沒有這個我們向委員坦白一下因為這個和財務上的關聯性不是那麼強所以我們要查核的數項還蠻多的但是"},{"start":5808.936,"end":5831.628,"text":"今天發現這一個可能我們也會可能因為這個好像還蠻普遍的所以我們會來就這一個進行專案調查專案調查對我還沒問你你就知道我要問什麼了你算很聰明有時候財務上沒有關係財跟人有關聯這是人的問題對不對"},{"start":5835.926,"end":5863.101,"text":"財跟預算事情人、財、市這三件事情都有關聯啊人要依財去執行事情啊不是嗎那人出了問題的時候跟你有沒有審計有沒有關聯以這樣的看法就是應該有關聯更何況啊你知道嗎人事總處啊你要先去做一個審計調查啦人事總處居然啊公布一個所謂的反霸凌的這個行政規範公布完之後就跟他沒事了"},{"start":5864.235,"end":5890.433,"text":"任何一個單位有沒有做這一個那個人事指引相關的指引都沒有他都不曉得一問三不知記者會現場還跟法務部互踢皮球真的是醜態百出啊所以我是覺得審計長你應該要把這個列入一個很重要的重點什麼時候要提出報告你不會半年之後才提出吧還是一年之後"},{"start":5893.144,"end":5900.394,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第12會期財政委員會第11屆第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會"},{"start":5908.024,"end":5925.161,"text":"心態、文化各種方面要切入另外一個部分跟你也有相關你知道最近的整個霸凌事件也有人講說可能是跟人力上有關聯就是人力分配不足那我就牽扯到總原額法"},{"start":5925.882,"end":5945.531,"text":"我們那個總原額法的部分是在2000年的時候通過但是25年前的產物扣除掉這一個有一次從17萬3降到16萬9的部分然後呢你又增加了司法人力1100的部分然後你又把公立醫院去除掉大概目前要控管的人數大概是14萬"},{"start":5947.872,"end":5962.959,"text":"14萬的情況人事總部要控制14萬可是這個總額原法是在25年前那時候流行這個小政府的這個說法的情況底下所訂定的可是這幾年以來啊凡事都希望政府多做一點"},{"start":5965.041,"end":5983.162,"text":"業務新增或者是虛擬世界的所造成的對實體世界的一些衝擊的業務也增加很多這種情況底下結果控管人額卻不斷的外包控管人額卻不斷的這個委外的情況底下這業務沒有少"},{"start":5985.418,"end":5987.78,"text":"委員這個是一個要務實面對的一個問題對現在好像總研的法是16萬人左右但是"},{"start":6015.306,"end":6039.362,"text":"實際也控制在十幾萬、十三萬人但是他的臨時人員有六萬人加起來就超過二十萬人那一種言而法在控制什麼在控制什麼所以他臨時人員加就往這邊走所以我的想法"},{"start":6042.912,"end":6057.771,"text":"那要不要好好檢討?要不要好好檢討嘛?好,我們會去查。好,那又要叫你寫報告了是不是?對,但是啊,我要多久?要不到人。要多久?要多久?你要寫那個可以執行的報告,你要不要寫痛不癢的啊?我不會!"},{"start":6059.672,"end":6086.008,"text":"我們出來都是...如果你寫的都不痛不癢那審計就不是在審計了你知道嗎對 我們會...好不好我們會記住以告好好好 那我再請主計長下來一下你稍微休息一下主計長時間先暫停一下主計長好 時間暫停來 來來來 那個主計長另外一個部分你知道那個...那個國民黨的這個財法法的部分讓我們經費都要大砍"},{"start":6088.936,"end":6091.33,"text":"你看這邊哪一個最有可能被砍的"},{"start":6094.005,"end":6120.46,"text":"因為我們現在目前也不知道說整個的一個需求要等到115年如果說實際在審查的時候才看那原則上因為你要未以籌謀啊是是是所以我們原則上現在有初步也跟各部會來我覺得讓你看一下體育經費好了你看我們這次臺灣隊12強拿到世界冠軍情收的經費都起了很大的作用那個明年我們體育署編了44億那還有28億的國家體育建設"},{"start":6123.902,"end":6126.571,"text":"那如果照這個財法法通過的話那我們還會有這麼多錢嗎?"},{"start":6129.482,"end":6158.762,"text":"要對半砍要對半砍對如果按照國民黨這個版本的話體育補助都對半砍的話那我們還有機會拿到冠軍嗎?搞不好連這個這些球員的獎金都要對半喔原來700萬要變350嘛原則上都是這樣都會對半嘛所以球員獎金就會對半嘛所以說這個知識體大臺灣將來有沒有拿到冠軍啊跟這個預算有直接的關聯性嘛對不對"},{"start":6161.503,"end":6184.61,"text":"我就教你這個問題你們要點出來這個問題點很大有人在做禍國殃民的這個法案的時候你們真的要慎重遲遲的提醒因為這樣子的一個版本大概可能將來我們在預算編列是有很大的一個困難因為等於說大部分都要對半減但是有一些相關很重要的部分剛剛的說體育建設"},{"start":6186.33,"end":6192.593,"text":"體育建設28億、剩下14億、體育署14億變12億、體育發展那球員的獎金7千萬就變成3千5嘛而且相對的一個市權也沒有移轉像原來老人基金貼包括全民健保1074億市權沒有移轉老人基金貼還有這個國立高中職、老人基金貼、健保"},{"start":6214.104,"end":6238.455,"text":"都是我們在附帶的都是大問題好那我就看一下嘛你剛剛講的我就幫你做表做好了是財務複習嘛今審後都是中央嘛公共建設也是中央嘛老農津貼嘛還有直接補助縣市政府的是這頭有個問題點我必須說預算法第91條的時候大幅增加稅出稅入的時候要先爭取行政院的意見他們要先問你們的意見"},{"start":6239.833,"end":6264.289,"text":"這是第一個嘛第二個如果萬一問題出現的時候是不是應該提案修正對不對這有沒有不曉得預算來源在哪裡還有預算法除了91條之外還有一個很重要以後如果真的給地方比較多的錢那地方的這個預算怎麼編怎麼用現在沒有直接的法令規範"},{"start":6265.677,"end":6289.128,"text":"有沒有沒有現在是用預算法而已對不對是可是預算法第96條的時候有一個地方政府預算應以法律定之現在有這個法律嗎沒有有一個地方他現在目前就只有一個地方制度法還有那個地方制度法是要修這長期本席的主當是不是也應該制定一個地方預算法"},{"start":6297.988,"end":6315.382,"text":"對目前我們是這樣子因為這個相關的預算的一個籌編的部分它是在地制法裡面有規範但是其他的部分我們在總預算中央總預算籌編的時候會對地方做一些的規範但是事實上是真的沒有在法律上做一個大臉的規範"},{"start":6316.823,"end":6334.634,"text":"如果毫無節制的任由他去使用這些預算的話那財政機率會更加的敗壞不是嗎所以我就問你嘛就96條的部分如果萬一有這個趨勢一直走下去的話畢竟立法院的生態就這樣子是不是應該制定一個地方預算法嗎"},{"start":6335.959,"end":6357.77,"text":"多層次的規範嘛你們思考一下好不好你們思考一下評估一下兩個禮拜給本席一個答覆應該用透過地方預算法根據預算法96條的部分來訂定來做一個規範規範地方政府預算怎麼用怎麼編可不可以"},{"start":6359.151,"end":6385.848,"text":"兩個禮拜你這個如果沒有編的話我現在想齁這個禍國殃民的法案齁如果通過的話真的後患無窮啊主席長我建議你最好要編啊因為地方制度法老師說齁什麼時候修法也不清楚他們就只是想要搶錢而已可是地方預算法如果讓他們毫無理智的通過地方預算法照至少一個一個規範因為以前的預算規範是在行政部門的內部監督嘛"},{"start":6388.39,"end":6388.41,"text":"沿寬橫維園諮詢"},{"start":6427.149,"end":6431.937,"text":"主席、各位歷史觀點大家早。主席有請主計處陳主計長。好,主計長。"},{"start":6439.673,"end":6467.346,"text":"委員好主計長明年中央政府總預算稅數編列3.13兆占比最重的是社福支出8310億比今年增加413億社福是我們最不可缺的一環我們都希望民眾生活可以過得更好每個人也都希望能夠享有政府提供的社會福利"},{"start":6468.747,"end":6484.079,"text":"本席的選區面積很大大概260平方公里臺北市270平方公里所以我們的選區內人口部分區域快速成長有些是平盤"},{"start":6485,"end":6510.464,"text":"那整個海線的人口增加是一個很大的幅度但是因為人口增加所以也衍生出一些迫在眉睫的問題除了高齡化之外就是少子化的部分那在長照政策方面根據臺中市政府113年度長照2.0整合型計畫的報告中那一國中學區以日照的這樣子的一個達成情形"},{"start":6511.504,"end":6538.675,"text":"龍井烏日大概是66.7%沙鹿的部分是75%跟市區來相比市區大概都百分之百了都達成了所以顯然是入後很多我剛剛提到這個行政區都是人口快速成長的地方所以希望未來主計處能夠多幫忙我們會積極地來爭取相關的這些預算來擴建製造中心避免量能不足"},{"start":6540.056,"end":6558.654,"text":"讓這個民眾能夠得到更好的一個長照的服務那這個部分要請主計處要多幫忙那另外治水的相關部分前瞻預算第5期703億全數以這個舉借債務支應那其中水環境的部分218億"},{"start":6561.156,"end":6582.3,"text":"南部地區因為我們颱風侵襲的原因所以造成的災害比較嚴重導致常常要預支挪用救災的部分然後變成說中部地區我們的這些預防性的水利工程沒有預算可以進行就以我選區裡面來講這個臺中海線的南山節水溝"},{"start":6586.201,"end":6613.306,"text":"一、二期工程已經完成那最重要的第三期工程到現在都沒有著落那這個部分我要請這個主計處這邊因為水利署常常要求地方這個要地方政府來先行帶電但是因為會不會說電力電就變成自掏腰包變成說有借無還所以本席要請主計長多留意預算模樣的情況"},{"start":6614.606,"end":6636.547,"text":"預算農用的情況在這種極端氣候的影響之下全臺各地都經常的發生這種突發性豪大雨所以尤其我們海線地區這個第四低窪如果碰到漲潮、極端氣候影響再加上水利工程沒有完善這種情況那如果一發生這種災害是很難想像的"},{"start":6637.412,"end":6661.372,"text":"是,我也跟委員說明一下,因為剛剛委員所談到的就是有墊戶的一個情形事實上我們去了解,它不是,它是應該,一線是應該要配合的一個配合款只是說因為前瞻預算的一個案子如果沒有通過的話,這個部分的配合款可能就是沒有辦法就是要叫他先行來做預算的一個編列"},{"start":6662.514,"end":6673.867,"text":"再來就是有關災害的一個部分我們一般都是針對復建工程都會先撥10%然後還有救助和緊急搶救的部分都會在核定的經費營業5%甚至於會看緊急的情形會有6%、7%"},{"start":6678.112,"end":6702.426,"text":"百分之八的一個做調整那資金的調度我們也會看地方如果有困難就會預先來做預註所以像花蓮的一個地震、震災我們都先預借給他3億元那像莫蘭地颱風的時候也借給高雄3億元所以一般縣市如果有困難在中央這部分他都會先行預註主計長那我再請教就是青年失業率的問題"},{"start":6703.867,"end":6720.16,"text":"今年是九年級就是90年次以後出生的第一開始進入職場的時間但是他迎來的卻是一個屢創新高的青年失業率根據你們主計處資料這個今年1到10月20到24歲青年失業率高達11.69%11.69%他是所有"},{"start":6729.403,"end":6745.408,"text":"是所有年齡層中失業率最高的跟45到64歲中高齡的失業率2.15%相比差了5.43倍那你認為是什麼原因導致這些青少年找不到工作可不可以先說一下"},{"start":6746.255,"end":6765.161,"text":"我要跟委員報告一下因為事實上我們用青年的一個失業率是15到29歲那剛剛委員講的是指20到24歲的部分所以它是11點多但是它已經從13點多降到11點多有比較好就對了11點多是有比較好就對了對所以逐步在降這個部分那當然因為那11點6點你滿意嗎"},{"start":6770.322,"end":6785.567,"text":"不是,這個部分我們當然是要盡力來做改善那這個部分是因為他是出入職場所以他很多都是怎樣他對他的薪資不滿意對他工作的職位不滿意所以他會異動率就會比較高所以你的解釋就是說因為他"},{"start":6786.307,"end":6809.201,"text":"這就是目前的狀況第一次投入職場所以對於他的這個就業環境不滿意所以才會導致高失業率是這樣子嗎就業的職類別就業職類別包括他的薪資他不滿意所以我們會做調查做這個分析我想這個我們我國的高等教育普及度很高那青少年都應該具備"},{"start":6810.302,"end":6818.385,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11"},{"start":6837.331,"end":6857.699,"text":"還有沒有其他原因?沒有,就是因為就業別的關係因為它不穩定,它一直換工作不穩定換工作?對對,就是這個部分因為我們調查分析的兩樣主要原因就是我認為我們要去思考怎麼樣鼓勵企業能夠提供更好的就業環境就業條件,這樣子能夠讓年輕人他們能夠剛出社會的這些新鮮人"},{"start":6861.54,"end":6877.595,"text":"能給他們更多的機會來進入這個社會來做一個學習跟培養相關的實力這樣才能夠讓我們國家這個更有創造力那好那我再請教明年1月1日最低薪資從27470調升到28590那從時薪從183元調到190元"},{"start":6885.462,"end":6888.404,"text":"民務薪資調漲不等於實質薪資漲今年公布的一個數據"},{"start":6902.693,"end":6913.259,"text":"這個去年經常性薪資45496那實質經常性薪資是41334實質經常性薪資又降低了0.05%連續三年為負數那實質總薪資的值也減少了1.04%是七年來首度負成長我要請教主計長用專業角度去預測一下"},{"start":6929.447,"end":6945.358,"text":"你認為今年實質總薪資、實質經常性總薪資相較於去年是會上升還是會負成長的狀態?那判斷的依據是什麼?報告委員,事實上今年113年1到9月我們的經常性薪資平均是連增2.72"},{"start":6947.58,"end":6972.743,"text":"那個我們的一個CPI去比,事實上是正成長並不是說,像委員說的是負成長那目前的部分,我們經常性薪資也都是正常成長的一個方向來走而且是逐年在成長,連我們的中位數也都是成長那為什麼我手上的資料是負的呢?是是,我們在補充資料,那是去年的,我們在補充資料今年一到九年,全部是正成長"},{"start":6973.55,"end":6983.617,"text":"所以今年是會上升就對了嗎?那我手上這個卻是負的啊,負成長啊那是1、2年的部分,那我們會補100年我來再講一下啦,我們雖然每一年都在調高基本薪資"},{"start":6989.451,"end":7004.918,"text":"也代表著物價不斷的上漲現在物價通膨大家都很感受那國人的加薪加班費還有獎金這個調漲的幅度根本趕不上通膨的速度那對於一些領高於基本薪資的勞工來講這個調漲對他們毫無作用但是"},{"start":7010.831,"end":7032.799,"text":"他的副作用來的就是這些物價的上漲那包括每一次像是外食費、蛋價、菜價這些漲幅大家都有看到五塊、十塊這些東西都高於這個薪資的增幅所以最後有可能出現說本身薪水沒有調漲但是物價都上來了"},{"start":7033.479,"end":7034.459,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7063.326,"end":7088.592,"text":"受害了怎麼辦跟委員報告就是剛剛如委員所提去年的部分事實上是等於是說他薪資的成長沒有比通膨還要高但是今年一到九月他薪資的成長都高於通膨通膨的一個那個所以他本身薪資是呈現成長而且以行政院來講他也是帶頭來所以我們今年就是把所有的受僱的"},{"start":7089.292,"end":7115.099,"text":"一個相關的一個限制調到3萬1你講的都是數字但是我講的是感受確實是現在螺旋上漲就是整個菜價物價螺旋上漲薪資停滯這個是現況所以我們不是不要去美化數字我們要的是說實質的想出什麼樣的辦法來協助大家來協助能夠擁有一個更好的生活品質然後找到一個更好的解決方案好不好是好主席長"},{"start":7116.817,"end":7116.977,"text":"謝謝審計長還有金門縣的審計主任"},{"start":7140.456,"end":7161.444,"text":"楊大洋主任沈議長我是請金門縣主任在這裡但是我想你也很了解我們金門的這個情形那你知道我們金門這個剛剛我聽到有委員在評論說金門好像是說很多吳評會員是說金門有很多什麼剩餘什麼什麼還是怎麼樣還為什麼還要多要錢"},{"start":7163.986,"end":7187.896,"text":"我想讓這邊讓大家再更了解一下金門縣的財政情形你知道金門縣去年金門曾經有爭取到一個停車場的補助費用有一個停車場大概十幾億的補助公務總局給我們前兩年爭取到補助費用要做兩個停車場一個在金城國中一個在中正國校的地下室要做兩個停車場"},{"start":7189.036,"end":7199.25,"text":"可是因為我們必須要有自籌款但是我們先生覺得我們因為財政開始變成困難所以我們就把這個9億、11億的費用退回給公路總計,您知道這件事嗎?"},{"start":7202.818,"end":7220.411,"text":"審議長知道嗎?知道你知道嗎?知道楊主任知道嗎?知道是不是確實有這件事情?對所以我們怎麼會不想做事?或是我們怎麼會剩很多錢不想做呢?我們現在是因為不夠錢那審議長你知道金門的稅率一年多少錢嗎?"},{"start":7221.312,"end":7246.586,"text":"一百多萬一百多億一百一到一百三嘛那你知道這個其中金門縣政府自己出了多少錢嗎金門縣啊自籌多少你知道嗎我們的一百多億裡頭我們自籌一年自己出多少錢自籌百分之四十四十四十五十我們一年都自籌四十五十億換句話說我們的錢很多應該在全國排名是前幾名吧"},{"start":7247.526,"end":7265.832,"text":"致酬的部分排名應該是在前幾名嗎?在前面的一定是在前幾名我們當然現在是沒有負債也是因為我們都懂得怎麼結尊開支但是我們的確是財源越來越困難所以我們現在才會有一些沒有辦法做的事情我想請問主計長"},{"start":7268.956,"end":7289.478,"text":"我先把審計問完好了來 審計長 那個審計的人力分配我先請教啊 主委長等一下喔審計的人力分配問題我想跟你們請教齁這個你們的工作包括監督預算啊 審定決算啊齁 這個齁那 你看你們的人力分配 你看嘉義澎湖金門齁 的這個人事齁 人力齁 你看"},{"start":7291.561,"end":7317.418,"text":"15個人澎湖13個人你看監督的預算數加一室500多億澎湖縣400多億金門縣700多億719億您看一下我們金門縣的人力你看我們的金門縣審計室的人力只有13個人我們省的這個預算監督的預算比澎湖比加一多很多啊意思是說我們在金門審計人力呢平均監督的預算數"},{"start":7319.537,"end":7319.777,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7336.425,"end":7356.051,"text":"謝謝委員你講到我都痛處我那個人力啊每個縣市都十幾個人是不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不"},{"start":7358.198,"end":7377.587,"text":"所以我們現在社會上啟齊沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有人要做"},{"start":7378.929,"end":7395.616,"text":"人事總署人事總署不願意就對了是嗎他有總委員法限制啊所以他給我的每個人都會想要所以你們能力研究不足嘛那你就不擔心人事總署不擔心那個審計單位發生因為可能會公務人員過牢啊這也算霸凌啊人事總署不擔心嗎"},{"start":7396.956,"end":7414.172,"text":"他因為有總額落法的問題所以我會體諒他那你體諒他我們沒有辦法體諒你因為我們金門縣緣的太少一般都是希望審計人員最少二號沒有沒有我們的審計人員最少你過去研究一下我們金門縣為什麼太少我是這樣啦這個我已經向人事總署因為大院有做決議希望我們能夠增加額度給我們那我已經去了兩次公文"},{"start":7423.48,"end":7435.584,"text":"我會再去第三處看看還有沒有再開個專會來解決這個問題阿如果沒有的話人事總署有來阿副人事長請上來一下暫停一下請他上來有在這裡喔來人事行政總署副人事長"},{"start":7451.038,"end":7460.071,"text":"委員好部委員市長來請問一下萬一發生過勞致死這算801種你們不用考慮這個情形嗎"},{"start":7462.897,"end":7486.496,"text":"這個人力怎麼應用、如何管理各機關也要一點責任去投資分配你意思是說審計室的那個人力用得太浪費是不是?是沒有啦,老實說是沒有,那為什麼立法院做的決議你們不做呢?有啊,那那個審計部有邀請證號,他有報告然後呢?那當然我們會有一些想要釐清的事情會請做多久勒?"},{"start":7487.486,"end":7500.529,"text":"那就如果有要審計部釐清了那看審計部的回應的水準審計部沒有辦法釐清是吧審計部在那裡沒辦法釐清喔有啦他們會會那這公文已經去多久為什麼要去三次呢政府平行部門之間要這麼辛苦喔"},{"start":7501.884,"end":7518.8,"text":"這樣啦,因為我也諒解...我知道你不敢為難他啦,來他那個總研合法他要控管啦,所以剛剛有委員要希望喔,調整總研合法應該怎麼做你們來告訴我們嘛,可以嗎,我們立法院會有做的決議我們會希望不要再有這樣的情形發生嘛,好嗎"},{"start":7519.701,"end":7520.041,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":7543.274,"end":7545.416,"text":"所以針對這個審計長在這裡針對這個金門的這個部分吼我們的確沒有你知道我們金門的確好主席掌聲"},{"start":7552.003,"end":7572.748,"text":"我們金門的確也有我們金門的確也有說甚至我們有餘力的時候我們也是幫助金門醫院嘛補餘力了對不對我們也補助金門醫院補助金門大學即便我們財政困難看在這些也是金門人在那邊念書金門人在那邊就醫我們還補助中央單位即便我們短處自己很多東西都做不了主計總處主任秘書上來主計長上廁所嘛洗手間那都是你問我啦"},{"start":7576.169,"end":7585.026,"text":"不然這樣子我問你啊你先主計對好可以問你也可以來來主計長呃他等我等他我等他我等他"},{"start":7588.98,"end":7609.352,"text":"你知道這個離島我們有要求在公共建設部要加三層嘛沒問題嘛但是為什麼請問一下我們都離島都不會跟別的縣子比我們都跟離島比你看一下澎湖金門連江同樣是離島縣為什麼我們的人口我們人口比澎湖還多我們14萬他10萬我們的這個"},{"start":7612.094,"end":7620.163,"text":"我們的土地差不多,比它還大為什麼每一年的補助款都豐富這麼多?都少豐富這麼多?我想請問主計長"},{"start":7621.802,"end":7641.597,"text":"我要跟委員說明因為在他是沒有收支差短本身我們會設置不是為什麼我們是差不多大的縣市而且我們都是離島是但是有一點我要特別跟委員報告因為我們自籌財源比較多不是你的低收入戶的人口我們會在差不多你只有我們125戶他199戶"},{"start":7644.179,"end":7664.63,"text":"沒有你只有他們的兩層沒有啦你注意看一下我們中地收入我們125他199對這個部分我們有算了齁就這個部分就是有關社會福利支出的一個部分為什麼差距是4倍我們的賭注差4倍為什麼我們跟澎湖你看人口各方差不多我派比他多人"},{"start":7665.31,"end":7669.113,"text":"但我們中間收入戶比較少因為這個部分就是低收入戶的相關的我們125戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶�"},{"start":7695.635,"end":7717.193,"text":"你把資料提供給我因為我們的人口和那個都比他多嘛是是是是地方的這個公務人員調薪的部分114年軍公交要調3%嘛明年開始啦88年以來第25年來第二次調薪啦連續首度連續第二次那我們這幾年你知道稅入和稅出我們也越來越辛苦了為什麼我們金門縣還是只是補助50%"},{"start":7718.598,"end":7741.269,"text":"因為我們現在目前就是針對比照113年度條新的一個原則就是它基本收入差短有差短的縣市補助50%沒有差短錢的補助意思就是說別的縣市因為比較沒有努力自籌財源我們很努力沒有差短我們省錢然後努力賺錢所以你來處罰我們那我們就是要自己出更多的錢"},{"start":7742.409,"end":7763.116,"text":"你不鼓勵這種很自己說我們盡量省錢不能做10億沒有因為我們籌不出3億10億的錢我們就不要了對不對我們就不要這個停車場你不鼓勵這種好學生努力向上的學生你就逼大家擺亂嗎所以委員你的一個一般補助的一個成長是比"},{"start":7765.637,"end":7791.203,"text":"在排名是第三的是成長比澎湖還要高那還是跟不上吧我們什麼東西都要自己金門縣什麼東西都要自己出比較多沒錯吧自籌款也要比較多補助款又要比人家少然後接著我們還努力的除了自己的縣內的機構以後我們還努力的看中央單位縣立醫院、金門大學、國立單位我們還要幫忙他們"},{"start":7791.923,"end":7815.636,"text":"所以一般縣市補助的部分我們這麼的努力也跟中央一起的協力卻給我們這麼少的補助款主要是在調劑營需啦所以這個部分如果說自有財源比較高的部分在懲罰好學生喔好學生有獎勵喔沒有啊你看我比那個還少這個部分你整個來幫我們我們這個討論很多次了好好的來檢討好不好我們的財力分析方面檢討謝謝委員長"},{"start":7819.755,"end":7821.337,"text":"王紅薇委員主席主席、主計長副秘書長"},{"start":7846.533,"end":7866.08,"text":"委員好主計長和副秘書長好上次我在這邊特別提到因為我們一直在討論財劃法那麼事實上中央對地方財劃法因為它是這個統籌款的部分有公式但是補助款的部分就是中央分配給地方"},{"start":7867.38,"end":7888.398,"text":"當時我就在質疑以我們六都來說每一次的歷年一般補助款都是臺南市拔得頭籌第一名在六都裡面臺南市還很不服氣我看到有一些綠媒還說他打臉我他用一些他自己的表格"},{"start":7889.119,"end":7913.489,"text":"好那我今天就再一次的用我們今天行政院主計處所做的報告我們今天討論中央補助款對不對中央補助款一般補助款裡面你們的報告第14頁這個是你們明年度對直轄市及縣市一般性補助款的編列情形表大家如果有的話可以拿來看"},{"start":7915.148,"end":7930.898,"text":"可以再次的看到我們如果拿六都來講的話我們如果拿六都來說那麼我看一下最少的是我們桃園市"},{"start":7932.637,"end":7935.319,"text":"桃園市75億、桃園市114年度是75億、桃園市190億、桃園市189億"},{"start":7950.683,"end":7979.803,"text":"所以我們如果拿六都來做比較的話確實臺南市今年呢掉到第二名但是如果看歷年我今天就用這個表格這個在主計處的網站也通通都有臺南市過去歷年都是六都裡面第一名可是大家看到我今天表格一定覺得很奇怪啊欸王宏偉你說什麼臺南第一名他說第二名啊對不對你剛剛說今年這個高雄是第一名高雄也是第二名啊"},{"start":7981.038,"end":8010.048,"text":"因為我很仔細的看你們的補助款我發現一個非常特殊的狀況也就是通常我們一般性的補助款可能用人口、面積或者是它所負擔的一些相關的業務確實六都它分配的比較多一些但是其實我們有一個隱藏性的第七都神秘第七都後來我看了以後我確實有點冤枉台南市"},{"start":8011.124,"end":8025.831,"text":"因為在歷年你們一般性補助從110年一直到明年你們一般性補助款最多的不是六都任何一個都市而是屏東縣政府"},{"start":8026.874,"end":8048.906,"text":"你看到今年還可以拿到192億比高雄比台南都要高所以我想請問請問主計長請問行政院一般性補助款我想各縣市都有很多業務剛才比如說像金門啊他們想想做一些事情啊因為沒有錢最後把那個配合款也通通都退掉了"},{"start":8051.411,"end":8077.485,"text":"平東他不是人口最多他也不是面積最多他也不是財政自籌的能力最差都不是啊為什麼年年一般性補助款平東都可以拿第一名什麼原因過去常常講說哇這個中央政府啊都是重北輕南有嗎如果我們看一般性補助款來說"},{"start":8079.079,"end":8106.689,"text":"例年六都裡面臺南市、高雄市絕對可以分在一、二名結果我沒想到屏東更厲害屏東可以拿第一名所以你們這些的補助款難道不是重慮清懶嗎我直接整理了五年的資料給你看所以也因為我的時間有限因為我待會還有很多要問請行政院主計處給我一個"},{"start":8109.62,"end":8138.058,"text":"報告請問你們一般性補助款的分配的標準到底是什麼為什麼出現這樣長期的不平衡長期的傾斜那請問一下屏東縣他如何傲視全國年年可以拿第一我不解這有神秘的公式嗎好請你給我一個書面資料好接下來因為我們要審查的太多來下一頁"},{"start":8140.122,"end":8151.758,"text":"請問一下我們今年的二倍金行政院二倍金今年的到目前為止使用多少目前是使用45億"},{"start":8154.704,"end":8157.787,"text":"剩下45億目前45億剩下45億剩下45億所以因為你們報告是說第4頁來大家都可以看到第4頁說動之了26億然後呢"},{"start":8171.974,"end":8197.07,"text":"今年度編列的是74億所以如果只剩45億事實上動資29億所以今年的動資金額非常的少因為這個大概過去因為編的比較高後來也是按照它實質的來做這個合理的調整但是明年度你們二倍金又把它提高到80億"},{"start":8199.042,"end":8217.695,"text":"如果今年度全部到今年已經今年都快過完了一個半月都不到你們也不過動用了29億因為你這個報告其實有誤差29億的話那你明年度你要編到80億要增加6億為什麼跟委員報告"},{"start":8222.728,"end":8248.854,"text":"因為我們現在就是說除了我們災損金以往是編20億那今年提高到50億對這個我沒有什麼意見因為災損金老實講我一直在問你們我們今年災損因為今年災損比較嚴重應該照理講是嚴重可是到現在為止你也沒有給我說今年到底災損動用了多少好那你如果基於說現在有一些這個可能的這個氣候"},{"start":8250.394,"end":8269.382,"text":"異常的狀況或者是說你對我們治水預算的成果不具信心很擔心到時候又來到處淹水所以呢你今年的就是明年的災害准金你把它變50億其實增加了1.5倍嘛從21變50億但是我這個不會去有什麼意見啦因為這個有災害才會用"},{"start":8275.925,"end":8303.907,"text":"那我請問你二倍金憋那麼多幹嘛?我再跟委員報告那你今年用那麼少?像我今年開明颱風就100多億啦那現在三駝耳的這一個部分它有一部分的榮損還沒有報來那我們的一個災損金在113年才20億那是根本不夠對啊你已經增加到50億了所以我們今年光是災害就將近200多億200多億的一個災損那這一個部分第二億倍金也是依註所以目前還有45億左右相關的榮損"},{"start":8305.788,"end":8328.003,"text":"我就知道你會這樣想你知道嗎其實在我們的預算法裡面只要有災損的時候我們任何科目都可以移作災損金對不對我們很多科目是不准隨便亂挪用的但是你們其實被我們內政委員會去抓到了亂挪用什麼資本門拿去做經常門這個帳回來再算"},{"start":8330.103,"end":8354.002,"text":"摘准金你提高我沒有什麼意見但是呢摘准金我剛講其實只要發展比如你今年200億你全部加起來摘准金二倍金也沒有200億啊你就說你沒有錢了嗎不會啊你還是可以去挪用其他的科目嘛對不對你知道為什麼我覺得你們二倍金這樣提高沒有道理第一個今年度這麼少動資的那麼少"},{"start":8356.912,"end":8372.768,"text":"然後你明年一下提高了6億我就覺得沒有什麼道理啦好那因為我的時間還有限我還是要請問你另外調整軍公教人員待遇準備為什麼要減少那麼多"},{"start":8374.076,"end":8400.689,"text":"第一個就是減少的部分主要是那個退休人員的部分那退休人員的部分他是五年調整一次五年檢討一次然後他是必須要看整個物價不是砍而是說他能調整的部分必須五年調整一次然後他做檢討然後而且必須要看物價超過百分之五以上才可以調所以他是裡面有規範所以這個部分就是針對退休人員的部分不是砍是他沒有調這個部分"},{"start":8403.711,"end":8428.591,"text":"條件沒有成就因為他必須要說他的消費者物價指數必須累計達到政府5%以上這個部分才可以調整那第二個就是每四年要檢討一次所以他有兩個條件這兩個條件這個部分請你再給我比較詳細的好不好因為我看今年就是明年度是在減少的非常少我還以為我們的人員大幅的減少勒"},{"start":8429.312,"end":8429.812,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":8452.732,"end":8470.383,"text":"審議長好你們的預算基本上我不會做什麼樣的調整但是我要講的就是其實我要褒獎一下我們審計部我真的覺得我們現在的審計部大概是我們"},{"start":8471.263,"end":8496.263,"text":"就是政府裡面的良心有關於在一些預算、財務過去你們確實也抓出很多包含前瞻前瞻問題太多了留下一大堆的文字館還有一些國防前瞻特別預算的舉債太高我認為審計部也都有盡到職責所以預算的部分我不會調整但是我想在我們"},{"start":8497.063,"end":8511.745,"text":"這些有關於這些財政支出所以預算那請審計部等於過去的這樣的一個原則和態度不要因為有什麼壓力然後呢就開始這個畏首畏尾的好不好"},{"start":8512.446,"end":8515.609,"text":"審計部都到最後花光光了以後你們再去找問題但是我們還是要把問題找出來好不好好謝謝王洪瑞委員接著請李昆城委員質詢"},{"start":8541.36,"end":8549.745,"text":"謝謝主席我們先請主計長那如果等一下有談到審計部的部分再請這個審計長隨時stand by好請主計長委員好"},{"start":8553.937,"end":8564.691,"text":"主計長最近因為臺灣的棒球拿到世界冠軍所以大家又開始重視體育然後重視體育的預算其實我看我們這個政府不論是編在體育署的體育的經費"},{"start":8572.08,"end":8598.201,"text":"或是說編在我們這一個運動發展基金裡面的這些經費其實對於我們的不論是球員或是我們這個全民運動或是說各級學校的這個軟硬體設施的這個補助呢其實我認為到目前為止都還做得不錯那當然也是還是可以有再加強的部分那我先請教一下這個我看了一下這一個體育署的這個預算"},{"start":8600.363,"end":8613.781,"text":"這個明年度有關於這個推展全民運動等等的預算合計有大概有41億這個是114年的預算但是我是要請教一下主計長"},{"start":8615.663,"end":8637.596,"text":"這個萬一這個財劃法按照國民黨版本通過之後那當然它是效果是在115年那如果就114年我們這個體育署的這個相關的運動的補助的話41億這個未來會不會受到影響我們原則上是全部如果要減的話應該是減半就減半"},{"start":8641.234,"end":8657.163,"text":"就是說如果按照國民黨版本通過之後中央沒有這麼多的錢再來補助地方那所以說比如說114年的這個運動補助總共有41億所以未來有可能補助只能減半"},{"start":8658.308,"end":8669.26,"text":"因為我以今年1143兆1來看的話一法律義務就1兆8嘛那減到一法律義務之後剩下一兆3那一兆3的部分我要減到6612億減掉之後我只剩下6500億左右"},{"start":8674.206,"end":8701.878,"text":"所以這個部我一定是減半所以一般我就列出來一般就是說我基本需求的部分包括國防預算包括0到6歲的一個相關的一個補助包括我們體育的一個運動相關的一個都是以目前來講全部減半才有辦法符合這個需求這樣子因為被挖走了一半以上了嘛那所以說未來對於地方的補助大概也只能剩下一半那我在這個看這個"},{"start":8703.775,"end":8723.824,"text":"資料這個或許這個你們有最新的資料如果按照國民黨的版本通過之後這個會不會發生說這個縣市他的預算的本來的預算的數這個會這個就是我們給他補助比他們本來他們自己縣市的這個年度預算還要多啊"},{"start":8725.028,"end":8745.155,"text":"有多少?你們有算出來了嗎?應該大概有14到15個縣市它是超過就是說未來按照國民黨版本通過之後他們本來他們自己的稅出我們給他補助就是財務法通過之後給地方的補助會超過他們原來的這個縣市的這個政府的這個稅出就對了"},{"start":8748.996,"end":8769.873,"text":"因為目前的版本是說我對縣市的補助要維持上年度的額度如果這樣子來維持的話那我一般縣市補助還包括統籌分配稅下去就有將近有15個地方它超過它的需求所以它剩下自由財源都是剩下的是這樣子等於是說"},{"start":8770.573,"end":8771.054,"text":"我舉個例"},{"start":8786.873,"end":8792.68,"text":"廉江縣本來年度預算是44億但是按照國民黨的版本撥給他們的補助會有69億超過他們的稅出預算25億以後會發生這種情況縣市高達15個那些多出來的錢要怎麼去用"},{"start":8809.017,"end":8836.133,"text":"對所以現在就是說市權沒有相對的調整這是不公平因為原來省的業務的部分他說所謂15%的部分其實縣市的部分只有4.3%那11%的部分是屬於省的業務但是你現在撥出去的高達21%將近21%所以這個部分省的業務沒有市權沒有移回去包括全民健保包括老龍津貼通通還是中央在負擔"},{"start":8836.673,"end":8863.662,"text":"所以這個部分對中央來講也是一個很大的一個負擔就是我們之前也談了好久就是錢跟權要一起來談所以就像主計長所講的有15個縣市我們給他未來的這個統籌分配款或是什麼補助款下去之後會比他原來的這個縣市政府的預算稅數還要多那現在也不知道說多了那些錢未來會做什麼那我們就很怕會"},{"start":8864.642,"end":8864.802,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8879.733,"end":8895.945,"text":"這個資訊來看有很多都是非法定社福但是這個涉及到當然有一些縣市政府他們覺得說我自己有錢我願意多給一些社會福利但這個不是我們法定的社福支出所以未來這種情況"},{"start":8896.866,"end":8925.216,"text":"因為你多了這麼多錢嘛要嘛就兩種嘛非法定社福支出一定會增加福利大放售那是不是符合需求那就是要去做討論另外一個就是說地方的沒有必要的這個像文資館這種硬體的設備也有可能會增加因為你多了這麼多錢你不去執行的話變成你的執行率不高不好對啊那就是說就會發生這種事情了是不是"},{"start":8926.325,"end":8953.929,"text":"那再跟委員報告其實我們有一部分的前瞻PEW軌道建設的一些經費將近有4000多億一直也還沒有編上去那這個部分也會嚴重影響到那其實這個部分影響的比較多的就是整個六都因為它大部分都是跨域的所以一般它的一個軌道的建設也受到很大重大的影響因為到時候中央完全沒有能力來負擔這些啊對啊像我新北我現在三重有個北環要接台北"},{"start":8954.609,"end":8977.746,"text":"最後會接到士林、內湖那邊去我也不曉得說以後我看前瞻是有在補助啦那未來中央還有這個能力做補助嗎?因為他還沒有編完的部分全部前瞻已經結束了所以將來是要納到總預算裡面去編列那這個部分已經沒有能力去編列所以必須一定是這個部分就要修正一個補助的比率"},{"start":8978.406,"end":8994.511,"text":"因為其實我上次有問過就是說你本來是財劃法沒有通過之前我們有一定的補助比率但是你如果說按照國民黨的財劃法通過之後你補助比率就修正啊因為你沒有這麼多錢啊你想要補助你都沒有這麼多錢可以補助啊"},{"start":8997.296,"end":9016.726,"text":"日前監察院秘書長李巨毅備詢時表示,就112年度而言,審計部總共提出1760項地方政府的財政問題,包括非社福法定支出、法定社福支出、文資管等"},{"start":9018.487,"end":9036.343,"text":"然後監察院就會挑其中嚴重的案子再給予調查那我這個就要請教這個審計長這1760項的地方財政問題主要是哪些東西哪些內容是有共通的現象嗎這個你們有去查出來嗎好委員謝謝"},{"start":9041.4,"end":9046.003,"text":"我們這1760項大概我們都有一個規定內部審核的問題有110項計劃預算族型的問題有1116項財務管理的事情有184項產銷營運有79項採購作業有165項事務管理有106項"},{"start":9065.835,"end":9082.205,"text":"大概我們都共通性的都有像那個公共債務的比例以法定債限的問題剛剛委員有講到新增後扣增非法定社福的問題像112年度就增加了63例"},{"start":9083.426,"end":9098.015,"text":"那被主計總處就扣減補助款2億這個大概我們都這方面我們都有一些查或者送監察案或者移送檢料那以後財劃法通過之後這種現象會不會更嚴重"},{"start":9100.317,"end":9119.853,"text":"這可能要好好的中央和地方的財政還有剛剛委員講的市和錢還有主計長憂心的因為他要把這個總預算編好所以一向那個一般性他因為一般性補助款和計劃型補助款就佔了因為地方"},{"start":9121.654,"end":9129.699,"text":"最近都是靠計劃性補助款和統籌分配稅款向114年度就移域下去如果不能動"},{"start":9130.814,"end":9158.167,"text":"主計長就會相當跟這個這一本總預算明年的總預算編的話他是錢會編不出來沒有地方再給地方那你這邊的問題有可能是說那地方拿到這些錢之後有可能會亂用這變成是你那邊的問題對這個方面如果錢下去我們會加強力道我們反正你只要動用國家資源我們一定會加強來查核"},{"start":9159.628,"end":9167.555,"text":"主計長,今年度的經濟成長率,八月預測是3.9,全年是3.26,這是八月份預測的。現在有沒有最新的資料,今年度全年的經濟成長率大概是多少?"},{"start":9185.249,"end":9201.086,"text":"目前大概應該會再往上提升因為第三季他的表現很好所以整個前三季的一個是百分之五點多那我們本來初步第四季是差不多一點多那整個平均起來應該有望再往上提升就是會破四就對了"},{"start":9202.368,"end":9228.848,"text":"嚴則上應該會因為我昨天在一個場合有聽總統在講他對於這個經濟成長很有信心他說有望年度的經濟成長會破市這個資訊應該是你有給他吧不然總統也不會說這個自己講出來吧因為我們明後天才要公布這個數字我們不方便在這裡說但是看起來是這個趨勢是朝上的有機會破市就對了趨勢是朝上謝謝主席"},{"start":9230.815,"end":9231.636,"text":"吳立華議員主席主席"},{"start":9251.789,"end":9268.138,"text":"委員好主計長您好這個預算會期進法補償是一個非常熱門討論的議題可能過去沒有人知道什麼是進法補償除了一些原住民朋友"},{"start":9269.119,"end":9269.88,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9285.64,"end":9306.191,"text":"但是大家也很好就是可以有機會好好的上一課到底什麼是基金什麼是禁法補償但是在這個當中我還是要強烈的去表達在這個過程我們看不到原民會他作為一個"},{"start":9307.574,"end":9331.831,"text":"目的事業主管機關又或者是我們基金的主計總處去有強而有力很及時的去能夠做出清楚的回應我覺得這個部分我在這一次看到是需要來好好加強的所以我今天我也要在這個地方就是請教一下"},{"start":9333.995,"end":9348.085,"text":"因為在11月25號內政委員會原民會的預算審查中有委員提到這樣的一段話我們的政府105年有撥基金以後106到114年都沒有撥給"},{"start":9352.634,"end":9370.268,"text":"所以我們在談禁法補償不能使用基金來發是因為我們看到基金已經短處67.66億因此禁法補償全部要由公務預算來編列如果就這段話來看我們來看一個表格"},{"start":9371.571,"end":9398.001,"text":"這個表格是我跟主計總處所資的確實我們看一下在增撥基金這個地方從開始有重發基金97年度一直到105年度我們可以看到以下106之後是撥補基金是空白的以至於我們可以聽得到說106到114都沒有撥"},{"start":9401.229,"end":9425.505,"text":"所以我們進發補償不能使用基金發是因為已經短處了可是我們看它的另外一列另外一行有補助收入從97年度一直到113年度每一年都有補助收入到基金所以我想請教主計長"},{"start":9427.473,"end":9434.458,"text":"這個增波基金為什麼到105之後就沒有什麼原因請你說明"},{"start":9435.334,"end":9460.271,"text":"因為當初是有說要到擴大規模逐年編到100億是那所以我們就撥到100億到105年就撥了100億然後這整個讓基金讓他去做運作是然後他運用那如果將來運用結果是剩下譬如說有不足的部分像很多的基金我們也都是這樣的一個狀況那我們在逐年再去做撥補啦再做撥補"},{"start":9461.873,"end":9481.814,"text":"所以現在如果說以那個淨化補償的一個部分就是會剛剛有一個補償補助收入的一個部分那我們就透過補助收入這樣子的一個方式來做淨化補償的一個金額的一個所以他也是透過基金來轉發這樣子淨化補償所以我整理一下主計長您說的是"},{"start":9483.436,"end":9491.107,"text":"因為原住民族綜合發展基金預定水位是100億所以撥補到105年度的時候已經滿100億的水位我看到這邊是140億"},{"start":9500.343,"end":9521.208,"text":"對,那個部分我們原則上是這樣子啦到105年累積增撥基金的部分是100億就是有達到100億吧對,然後我們後來又有陸陸續續那個部分都是屬於那個補助收入的部分那我再整理一下您的話也就是說增撥撥補滿100億之後"},{"start":9524.429,"end":9540.814,"text":"我們還是可以繼續用補助收入是的好那累計到現在是199億是那我再請教一下齁那當我們說進法補償不能用基金發是因為基金已經短處67.66億我想請主計長你說明一下這個短處67.66億是什麼意思"},{"start":9549.278,"end":9574.076,"text":"一般就是說我們當年度的一個收入和支出如果收支不能相抵它就會出現當年度會有短促的現象那這種就會累總到基金的一個餘額去那因為我們基金餘額總共是100億所以目前來講的話它是67億但是整個基金總數它還有剩餘還有30幾億的一個餘額所以如果要付淨華補償是夠的是足夠支應的"},{"start":9576.758,"end":9577.921,"text":"所謂的短處67.66億是指當年度的收跟入"},{"start":9586.717,"end":9607.315,"text":"以我們原民會的基金的使用大部分是拿去做貸款的發放絕大部分所以他每一年度發去做貸款的很多但是收回來的很少是這個意思嗎請問我們原民會的貸款預放比現在已經來到多少"},{"start":9613.553,"end":9636.995,"text":"已經有降低了以往是比較已經降低到本來是12.8現在已經降低到6.55了所以我們其實逐年在改善已經在改善了嘛我知道的是曾經高達到20嘛現在已經逐年逐年去年十幾今年已經6.7嗎6.55那改善得非常好啊"},{"start":9638.417,"end":9652.538,"text":"那這個部分我還是要請主計長說明那如果我們提到你剛剛已經解釋什麼叫做短處就是當年度的收根入那會因為基金短處就無法辦理這個基金的業務了嗎?"},{"start":9653.719,"end":9671.078,"text":"因為你要看累積啦所以累積我本身當初播100億的一個基金的總額嘛那累積它目前67的一個短數它每一年會逐漸累積然後這樣子相抵之後我還有三十幾億啊那再請教現在我們很高興"},{"start":9673.713,"end":9700.112,"text":"過去是公務加基金那大家不滿意全數以後用公務預算編我們也很高興但是請教一下主計長全部用公務預算編那最終也是要回到基金去發嗎是是所以因為就是因為這樣我們以往都是透過基金來發放然後都是當作補助收入撥到基金去然後由基金整個發放那可以不回到基金發嗎"},{"start":9701.892,"end":9730.174,"text":"也是可以啦 也是可以啦那會有什麼影響現在就是這樣子啦 譬如說因為如果說它本身每一年面積會有一些增減那你如果在基金裡面它的彈性比較大但是在公共預算裡面它的彈性比較小所以您的意思是說基金的好處是有彈性而且可以隨時撥補而且可以拿去投資"},{"start":9731.858,"end":9750.165,"text":"投資到沒有啦因為他這裡面就是幾個幾個就是一個就是淨華補償嘛那一個就是一個貸款的一個部分所以我們的重發基金這些錢還沒有撥補進來的時候補助進來的時候其實並沒有拿去做投資"},{"start":9751.673,"end":9768.916,"text":"目前沒有做投資那再請教一下喔那如果說我們的重發基金他有很多使用的項目我們再發這個進法補償金他會去影響其他既有的其他的項目嗎"},{"start":9770.448,"end":9795.94,"text":"應該不會啊,他不會因為年度的短促因為他基金現在還有一個所以基金他有單獨的一個補助收入的來源他做他的事他不會去影響原來基金那些要做的事情不會好,那我就要問啦那我們自從有了財政紀律法之後他有提到第7條"},{"start":9798.131,"end":9811.251,"text":"不得增訂固定經費額度或比率保障那對於這個部分不曉得我們之前的花東基金、離島基金他們目前的狀況如何"},{"start":9812.43,"end":9840.385,"text":"他們現在以前都是有限定說要到金額多少但是每一年他逐漸都會使用掉會基金逐漸減少那但是我們每一年都依照實際的需求去做編列而沒有說像給他撥補一定的額度說要多少因為這樣子的話我是有點浪費公家的一個裁員因為為什麼因為我要去擠債他的利息是比那個還要高所以我這個部分所以主計長您的意思是說"},{"start":9841.425,"end":9848.03,"text":"有了財政紀律法之後這個花東離島基金它也是用補助收入的方式進來"},{"start":9849.498,"end":9877.855,"text":"我們一般都是編列也不一定說是補助收入啦就是循預算程序循預算程序來撥補那撥補讓他去做運用是這樣子好那我在這邊最後就是停留因為很多人說短處的原因就是淨法補償因為發放淨法補償所以導致重發基金短處所以呢我們不應該"},{"start":9879.216,"end":9892.905,"text":"去投獲我們的基金來發放淨法補償那現在我們看到有一個主決議就是要求分三年去把這個短處的67.66億補回來了那我不曉得說主計長您對這樣的一個看法"},{"start":9899.246,"end":9901.987,"text":"總而言之我只是要提醒我們的主計總處"},{"start":9918.451,"end":9919.132,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9934.848,"end":9949.925,"text":"這麼了解基金所以我們很希望我們站在質詢台上也好或者是我們在做政策的說明也好我們應該要能夠撥亂反正提供正確的訊息給予解決的方向"},{"start":9950.566,"end":9971.852,"text":"那我們的目的其實並無二致我們都是希望解決問題但是在這個當中我希望我們的主計總處能夠好好的發揮我們這個導政的角色那主計長可以嗎是我希望未來站在第一線上我們都要做好這個角色好謝謝主計長謝謝主席謝謝接著我們請王世堅委員那個質詢"},{"start":9990.369,"end":9993.25,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":10011.618,"end":10030.737,"text":"不管是中央總預算的合編、特種基金的合編以及會計決算業務那各種統計業務等等就是以詳實最重要不能失真啦簡單講主計處"},{"start":10035.362,"end":10061.935,"text":"不是政府的化妝師這一句話你要記下來也就是說如果你統計的這些數字失真的話而且跟民間的感受全然不符的話那人民就會覺得說主計長你在幫政府化妝啊擦胭脂抹粉我們"},{"start":10063.547,"end":10088.352,"text":"任何一個政黨尤其現在民進黨的執政不需要任何化妝師我們是光明磊落的漢子該怎麼樣你要表達嘛社會真實的情況你要表達所以我列出幾個數字你看看齁光是消費者物價指數CPI啦那麼跟消費者信心指數"},{"start":10089.557,"end":10117.281,"text":"那很清楚這一年多來尤其啊這半年物價指數是繼續上升那麼信心指數是下降消費者信心指數當然包括大家投資股票家庭經濟狀況、國內經濟景氣、就業機會、購買耐久財等等這些這幾個指標通通下滑通通下滑那"},{"start":10119.065,"end":10144.69,"text":"消費這個CPI這個物價指數這個已經達到通貨膨脹的警戒線啦已經達到警戒線了那另外我要跟你提到的就是說這個房租房租的指數那房租指數啊這是嚴重失真啊"},{"start":10145.68,"end":10158.476,"text":"怎麼講呢上一任的主計長我就跟他提到這個問題他說好回去他查查看民間調查的房租的漲幅跟我們"},{"start":10159.898,"end":10187.391,"text":"主計處調查差了5.5倍之多啦那民間的你看民間他用的方式喔臺大經濟的碩士李祖福先生他發表一篇論文他去研究這個關於租金的那個漲幅他研究的他是去調查他是去調查595租屋"},{"start":10189.305,"end":10198.511,"text":"595租屋網站裡面所列的107萬筆這107萬筆的調查下來它的租金漲價指數是高達3.56到3.58而同一個時期我們主計總處我們調查的竟然竟然0.64而已那"},{"start":10218.526,"end":10237.322,"text":"這個臺北市臺北市政府今年的6月他又查了他查的他是以實價登錄實價登錄這個臺北市區住宅案件為基礎實價登錄去查的租金的漲幅也是年增率高達5.83"},{"start":10240.339,"end":10263.262,"text":"那同樣那個時期我們調查的主計處你所調查公布出來你沒有針對六都個別城市但是你調查的所謂北區那這跟臺北市比較接近是竟然只有2.222.22這個指數等於不到一半之多啦你們調查的"},{"start":10264.261,"end":10277.344,"text":"那更扯的是那有更多我們中央單位也查的提供給你們的像內政部內政部提供給你們是30萬筆耶天啊不是3萬筆5萬筆他提供30萬筆包租代管那麼主計總處你們查的是1350筆那誰比較有代表性"},{"start":10293.997,"end":10317.79,"text":"這很清楚啦這沒辦法去說服民眾說啊主計處我1350筆下去計算的會強過你內政部提供的30萬筆這不可能的事情嘛所以民間慢慢的會覺得說主計處的統計失真那主計處你統計失真這差別在哪裡因為"},{"start":10319.485,"end":10338.061,"text":"你代表的是我們整個中央政府該去詳實調查的部分你調查出來的資料是要給中央政府來作為施政推動各項政策的最重要的參考所以如果你施政這一方面政府的威信蕩然無存"},{"start":10339.465,"end":10365.302,"text":"二方面我們應該研擬怎麼樣的對策那這些對策的前提是錯誤的數字這怎麼會有好的對策不是這樣嗎所以要面對真實把真實找出來我剛剛提到人類政部他光包出貸款這30萬筆那你們為什麼為什麼不好好去做研究那"},{"start":10367.116,"end":10389.505,"text":"你們更新你們調查的數字每年都大概更新大概100戶左右所以你樣本數少那樣本也不合時去更新當然你出來的數字跟民間的就會差很多所以主計長你的看法"},{"start":10390.575,"end":10392.817,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10404.821,"end":10405.662,"text":"等於就是低估了"},{"start":10425.037,"end":10440.203,"text":"整個物價上漲率嗎?不是這樣嗎?報告委員因為以我們來講我們的一個調查是屬於基本資料一個調查那重點是說剛剛談到的北市的比較偏高的部分它有一部分是屬於營業的一個租金"},{"start":10440.723,"end":10465.973,"text":"那一、二的租金它就會比較偏高但是一般家庭的住戶的租金就會比較低那所以我們一般我們跟內政部的調查的數字內政部的調查也是2點多跟我們大部分是接近那我們這個部分是最基礎的資料那如果有一些針對業務性它要做的一個調查的部分會有各部會的一個統計的部分來做調查那所以這個部分也特別跟委員來做一個說明"},{"start":10467.776,"end":10483.39,"text":"你這一個部分你私下來做一些補充說明我了解到的是內政部的資料你們說這個房屋規格不宜但是30萬筆好過你才取樣1350筆而且這1350筆你還是每年只更新100筆的資料"},{"start":10492.238,"end":10518.004,"text":"這差距太大了那調查目的也不一樣我們也特別再跟委員你來報告這樣子因為實際我們國家我們租屋的人口數高達300萬人所以你區區的你只抽1350戶那這當然沒有代表性啊300萬的國民租屋你抽1350戶"},{"start":10523.407,"end":10544.798,"text":"這個任何人來評估都認為這個不夠這個差距太遠了吧所以現在小市民的感受就是這幾年的房租上漲的壓力房租隨著房價這樣飆升房租也跟著形成我們小市民很大的一個生活壓力而"},{"start":10545.658,"end":10569.175,"text":"政府對此束手無策束手無策照說應該要根據詳實的資料來詳列如何解決的方式才對所以我最後跟你提這一點只有審計處人家他們有去查到他看法我跟他看法完全一致審計部他建議恢復改善所得分配專案小組"},{"start":10570.797,"end":10578.103,"text":"他建議他積極的建議我在第一次質詢上個會決說我就認為說應該把這個小組應該恢復為什麼因為這個小組恢復他可以落實來執行協調各部會督導各部會針對"},{"start":10592.718,"end":10614.595,"text":"針對改善所得那應該做的哪一些計畫你總要有個總協調人嘛所以我認為改善所得分配的專案小組一定要出來因為現在我們收入後端20%的收入跟前端20%的收入差了66.9倍"},{"start":10618.723,"end":10619.584,"text":"三十年前的16.8倍不準"},{"start":10642.522,"end":10649.185,"text":"現在的66.9倍很準因為資料本身是比較簡單一點那就這一句就夠了就66.9倍是準的嘛那主計長你認為我們國民收入"},{"start":10657.549,"end":10672.944,"text":"相差66.9倍你認為對嗎這是指有包括財產的部分所以今年大部分把財產納進來的部分就是屬於它有一些實價登錄的部分價格有進來所以這個部分有資料有收集所以這把財產納進來才會有這麼高是這樣"},{"start":10675.947,"end":10680.568,"text":"財產納進是以資本財去賺的收入我認為你應該遵照審計部做的建議要求以及本席我相信還有其他立委都會跟你要求就是說我們應該恢復這個"},{"start":10699.155,"end":10717.573,"text":"改善所得分配小組這樣子的一個專案小組應該恢復讓他詳實落實去督導各部會針對改善所得這個部分做詳實的計畫這樣才對謝謝委員指教我們會檢討來評估最後一句你好好的回去"},{"start":10719.127,"end":10732.917,"text":"把審計部的很多項建議好好看一看有感覺上審計部比你們用功多、認真多謝謝謝謝事件委員接著請羅民財委員質詢主席、各位委員、主席、各位委員請主計長"},{"start":10748.65,"end":10762.766,"text":"請主計長陳主計長委員好你好的確國內的貧富懸殊啊越來越大那一葉知秋啊"},{"start":10763.547,"end":10782.4,"text":"我們看到美國總統的選舉很多人說拜登為什麼這一方面會輸川普會上主計長你覺得最大的意涵在哪裡?主要是通貨膨脹物價有漲太多其實就是美國的美國夢"},{"start":10793.252,"end":10822.142,"text":"現在已經消失了過去美國追求的就是財富的自由他們追求的就是大概都生活在相同的理念以及所有的環境或者是你的生活、車輛等等有車有房這個都是大家通通都有但是結構一直在改變就是因為"},{"start":10823.819,"end":10842.432,"text":"貧富懸殊越來越大臺灣現在最有錢跟沒有資產的這個相差的比例是多少?他目前基尼西數啊他是差倍66.966倍啊這個差距大不大?"},{"start":10843.629,"end":10870.551,"text":"以目前來講因為我們也跟其他外國來比事實上也不算最高的但是這是自由經濟發展的一個必然的一個成果所以這個部分我們也盡量要來做如果你說的自由經濟發展最後的終點是貧富懸殊越來越大甚至是100倍是1000倍那主計長"},{"start":10871.755,"end":10896.881,"text":"那你這樣的一個自由經濟發展一定要趕快來做調整不然社會的動盪社會的不穩定馬上就出現就好比說現在物價飆漲房價高漲那主計長我請問你租房子的租屋族大概有多少人?"},{"start":10900.081,"end":10906.563,"text":"幾百萬戶?一百萬戶三百萬的人,這些年輕人比較多數在租房子這個認證念書畢業以後為了工作在雙北、在六都工作就要租房子"},{"start":10928.697,"end":10944.656,"text":"那主計長房價有沒有飆漲有最近房價有沒有比較往下掉目前是有啦有吧齁往下掉主計長我請問你那為什麼房租沒有掉"},{"start":10947.355,"end":10976.227,"text":"其實房租的部分我再補充說明一下因為我們統計調查的結果整個在需求上面有需要租屋的需求我們統計調查的數字大概87萬左右那所以我們本身最近在做一個有一些租屋補貼的一些政策那這一個部分目前大概也都是超過60萬以上的一個補助是這樣子對 但是覺得很奇怪打房不是政府說打房已經見效了嗎"},{"start":10977.421,"end":10996.016,"text":"成效出現房價開始緩或是跌那你房租應該要降啊不然你沒有想辦法看有什麼策略讓300萬的租屋族他住得起他生活得起心智都沒漲啊"},{"start":10997.97,"end":11025.762,"text":"薪資是有漲喔,薪資是有漲一到九月的薪資它整個一個實質如果扣除通膨它實際是成長的好,你說薪資有漲,漲幾%這個部分它扣除通膨明目超過2%實質也在一點多%就是明目有超過2%啦,實質也一點多%這樣子啦你就漲那個一點多%不痛不癢"},{"start":11027.694,"end":11056.724,"text":"就算你漲個你說的2%所有的民眾感覺是難過的啊因為你薪資漲1%漲2%抵不過我吃的那個雞腿便當抵不過我每天工作中午晚上吃的排骨便當啊排骨台那個排骨便當1000一個便當也才"},{"start":11058.1,"end":11083.662,"text":"六、七十塊現在一個排骨便當要多少錢排骨便當的話火車站附近就是一百塊一百塊喔?阿雞腿便當一百二十塊阿本來六十塊漲一百塊漲四十塊欸主計長阿超過去六七十趴捏然後你說薪資成長才兩趴跟你講三趴好了"},{"start":11086.012,"end":11113.392,"text":"遠遠追不上物價的飆漲這個是扣除物價的成長總之啊是主計長是很多官員來這邊啊是鐵打的政府、流水的官啊流來流去反正我就在這邊待個兩年、三年時間到下台一鞠躬沒什麼事可是國家的發展是要永續的啊是"},{"start":11114.329,"end":11142.586,"text":"拜託啊,貧富懸殊要怎麼樣縮短它的差距不是要叫大家貧喔你們政府就要想方法讓大家全部都富起來時代在變政府很多官員的心態一直沒有調整沒有與時俱進是主計長是你有沒有買比特幣沒有"},{"start":11144.892,"end":11173.538,"text":"你沒有啊政府有沒有鼓勵大家買比特幣一般也是不鼓勵啦從頭到尾都反對啊所以我舉例的這個新興的產業因為政府的阻止政府的不輔導讓很多年輕人啊少掉致富的機會"},{"start":11179.754,"end":11201.712,"text":"虛擬貨幣這些交易或這次成長老扣扣都不知道啦最有機會接觸的就是這些年輕人政府又全盤的封殺主計長如果政府從10年前就開始給予適當的空間合法合規的輔導主計長你知道"},{"start":11205.229,"end":11230.172,"text":"這10年來 虛擬貨幣、比特幣的成長成長了幾倍?因為有時候高風險高報酬啦成長了幾倍?主計長成長了1萬倍換言之10年前你如果讓這些年輕人他去接觸他有機會可以賺到錢"},{"start":11232.64,"end":11257.25,"text":"結果你封殺了這些年輕的機會造成了過去在整個結構裡面富者橫富、貧者越貧所以你就拉開不斷的拉開了財富的差距我們就要說政府要用新的思維"},{"start":11259.864,"end":11287.066,"text":"來多想一些辦法來鼓勵年輕人讓年輕人活在臺灣是有希望的讓未來社會的結構不要產生矛盾是要更和諧的這個才是你們每年編預算的一個重要的宗旨最後再問一個問題軍公教人員待遇的問題是我最關心的"},{"start":11288.732,"end":11317.684,"text":"我希望每一年政府稅收都超徵今年超徵多少這個部分目前大概應該是三千多億吧三千多億本席一直主張每一個人發紅包一萬塊你們已經開始做了沒這個部分一個幾萬塊大家都會心存感激謝謝政府謝謝主計長"},{"start":11319.468,"end":11348.53,"text":"你與其把錢亂亂花倒不如拿一萬塊讓大家花放在自己的口袋更安心更安全而不是每一次你們來立法院拿著五張紙就叫所有的立委說台電缺錢你要撥補一千億趕快趕快通過不要吧不要做這個該做的你要做所以說超增就還稅於民啊"},{"start":11349.878,"end":11368.705,"text":"我們優先來還債還債可以部分的還啦然後你那個有一些不該花的一些軍購買了半天東西也沒到買的有的還沒過期的買的還被中間的前客A了一筆那個都很大條欸"},{"start":11371.223,"end":11400.268,"text":"我希望主計長你多好好思考一下像臺電你一直要一千億那請問臺電有沒有做到開源節流現在核四做不做這個部分我們會請臺電來做檢討現在核四已經停掉嘛那核四做不做這個部分也必須要他們來做一些檢討之後你就算做不做你知道那個核四廠那個地有多大"},{"start":11404.11,"end":11433.599,"text":"已經閒置在那邊多久?不信你問審計長一些土地閒置在那邊那一些老舊設備又不提升開園沒做、節流也沒做唯一想的就是趕快要錢要錢這樣的心態我們怎麼樣願意把一千億就隨便你們說了五張紙的報告我們就通過讓你們拿一千億去用拜託啊"},{"start":11435.115,"end":11441.216,"text":"錢要花在刀口上省一點用這是民脂民膏啊拜託謝謝謝謝民財委員接著請黃國昌委員質詢謝謝主席麻煩請找主計長跟審計長主計長跟審計長"},{"start":11466.741,"end":11495.271,"text":"委員好兩位好最近這段時間在審預算也發生了很多的事情我們回去最基礎的教科書告訴我們財政是國家肅政之母我們建立了預算的制度、會計的制度、決算的制度最後到審計就是希望看好人民的荷包、錢不要亂花"},{"start":11496.601,"end":11514.662,"text":"延續著上一次質詢的主題我最近陷入了迷惘我陷入了迷惘是說從預算到會計到決算到最後的審計我們有做到這件事嗎我們到底要怎麼做才可以防止政府機關"},{"start":11516.664,"end":11539.373,"text":"隨便亂花人民的錢胡搞瞎搞整個制度有沒有辦法追究責任我上次跟主計長報告如果在我們現行的制度之下一切合法對不起啊我很難接受為什麼這樣講我上次講的啊是園民會的主委花145萬出個人成果專刊結果"},{"start":11543.26,"end":11571.71,"text":"主計總處說預算經費的使用要符合計畫內容一開始預算書根本沒寫這個東西啊沒寫又怎麼樣我愛花就花我就是要這樣花結果我去調資料才知道從其他的項目隨便撥來給他個人出寫真集這件事情啊審計部你們那個專案的審計做了沒有"},{"start":11574.031,"end":11599.992,"text":"結果什麼時候會出來今天會送給委員今天送給我嘛除了這件事情以外接下來還有主要請審計長我可以老實跟審計長講過去這一兩年審計部是少有的政府機關在民間社會得到肯定審計部是少有的政府機關在民間社會得到肯定"},{"start":11600.97,"end":11623.301,"text":"我今年在處理監察院的預算的時候你們到時候看我預算提案就知道監察院我是大砍我唯一支持的只有審計部因為你們有在做你們的工作但我必須要跟審計長講的事情是可能你們在做這些工作的時候再認真"},{"start":11625.163,"end":11645.676,"text":"還是有你們沒有辦法處理的問題啊因為監督政府機關預算的執行審核財務收支考核財務效能全部都是你們審計部的責任嘛對好來看一下一個分署長的辦公室啊"},{"start":11646.843,"end":11655.364,"text":"可以裝潢成這個樣子花145萬啊花145萬啊審計部知不知道這是什麼向下支出的"},{"start":11657.48,"end":11681.915,"text":"這個因為在他的一般行政裡面啊救安基金的一般行政裡面我們正在整個在瞭解審計部有在瞭解嗎有出公函給他了需要多久我們原則上啊一個月裡面把這個事情啊弄清楚一個月我們沒那麼久啦兩星期好不好那我們的會加油啦盡量有照片加油啦錢這樣花喔"},{"start":11685.334,"end":11711.514,"text":"錢可以這樣花一個分署長搞成這個樣子我們現在在財務責任上完全不控管是不是更離譜的是我可能要拜託審計長納入你們審計的項目之一我找了半天這到底是什麼標案結果標案的名稱寫得很漂亮叫做新莊本部空間美化整修工程"},{"start":11712.759,"end":11731.152,"text":"一般的人看了新莊本部空間美化整修工程會覺得說啊這個是在美化整個勞動分署的辦公空間光看這個標案根本不知道原來在美化的是什麼分署長的辦公室來再請審計長看一下右手邊"},{"start":11732.513,"end":11755.41,"text":"這個是最有力標最有力標的評選委員會評選委員會的名單五個人我每一個人的資歷全部看完了以後現在在職的工作都是在北分署要不然在祕書室要不然在訓練科要不然在諮詢服務科如果啊"},{"start":11756.684,"end":11780.049,"text":"我機關首長裝潢自己的辦公室用罪有利標搞來評選委員會全部的評選委員五個都是我自己的屬下那你乾脆不要設評選委員會嘛分署長愛挑誰就挑誰啊但政府採購法有規定啊那政府採購法規定的用武如何可以這樣幹嗎?審計長"},{"start":11783.895,"end":11797.254,"text":"政府採購法有政府採購法的規定我們會了解是不是符合政府採購法好這個一併列入審計的項目當中已經列進去了然後最後一個這個更奇怪"},{"start":11798.786,"end":11813.52,"text":"我今天去跟勞動部調的說明今天才回給我他承認兩件事第一個本來的預算根本沒有編這個項目本來的預算喔沒有編這個項目那本來的預算沒有編這個項目"},{"start":11815.322,"end":11838.681,"text":"那奇怪了許民村是花什麼錢去開演唱會結果找了半天是從就業安定基金來那問題是什麼就業安定基金這裡面的名目是什麼名目是媒體宣導的費用媒體宣導的費用大家都會想說是在宣導什麼是在宣導有關於跟就業安定有關係的宣導片嗎"},{"start":11839.778,"end":11864.863,"text":"不管是對僱主還是對勞工的宣導片結果這宣導片啊可以包裝成拿來辦演唱會啊審計長你會不會覺得很離譜我們查到我們初步了解和委員了解的一樣我們也正在整個在喊醒那個整個勞動部我希望審計部在做審計的時候"},{"start":11866.581,"end":11888.607,"text":"一定要給全體的公務機關一個清楚的訊息預算立法院審議通過以後不准掛羊頭賣狗肉這就是典型的掛羊頭賣狗肉因為我把這個標案最後的驗收報告調來看最後的驗收報告講的是什麼他拍了幾隻騙子"},{"start":11890.796,"end":11910.159,"text":"拍了幾支片子那拍了幾支片子符合什麼?符合這個媒體宣導,名目上是這樣嘛實際上是什麼?實際上是在高雄的衛武營在那邊辦演唱會所以我希望喔,審計長這一次可以說是引發全國人民的怒火"},{"start":11910.819,"end":11932.841,"text":"也引導大家重新的再去思考我們的預算制度我們的決算制度我們的審計到底有沒有辦法杜絕這樣子的狀況如果沒有辦法杜絕這樣子的狀況的話我不知道我們立法委員這個會期在審預算到底在審什麼東西審了半天又怎麼樣"},{"start":11934.262,"end":11955.191,"text":"審了半天你跟我說我這筆錢要去推廣勞工政策結果最後花的時候拿去辦演唱會如果我們國家的制度對於這種胡搞瞎搞最後的結論是一切合法謝謝指教我必須要誠懇的跟審計長報告這件事情人民不會接受"},{"start":11957.918,"end":11985.455,"text":"主要查到沒有依照預算規定或是違反相關法令我們會做檢略的動作會做檢略錢是不是會追回來我們會檢略完以後會依照整個檢調查核的結果來追討希望這次審計部再繳出一張成績單讓臺灣社會看看我們國家公務部門裡面還是有人在負責把關的"},{"start":11987.315,"end":12013.073,"text":"可以嗎?可以好最後一個問題來請教一下主計長是淨法補償的追加預算什麼時候要送來?這個部分因為我們必須要等到那個明年他是在9月要發放那我們會在之前在下一個會期所以這個會期不會處理?是不會到下個會期才會處理就對了是114年度的追加預算OK好謝謝是謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":12018.581,"end":12023.685,"text":"好,我們繼續詢談,已經12點了,繼續詢談完畢接著請楊瓊英、楊委員謝主席,楊瓊發言,我們請行政院主計處審計部一併上來因為時間的關係,謝謝陳主計長、陳審計長"},{"start":12048.226,"end":12055.595,"text":"委員好行政院行政院我們就請一併官方討論李國新常務副秘書長"},{"start":12059.892,"end":12065.394,"text":"審計部114年度的預算當中,中央政府審計的工作項下,國外旅費的這個部分我們來做討論。您所編列的預算是496萬6千元,那113年你是增加了72萬7,它的增幅是17.15%,"},{"start":12083.882,"end":12087.163,"text":"審計部在105年到114年出國所編列預算跟執行的成效105年到109年連續5年大概都維持在308萬4千元110年度稍微減一點點是306萬1千元"},{"start":12110.269,"end":12134.115,"text":"111年跟112年COVID-19的關係所以當然就是你減到執行是134萬跟175萬左右但是在114年當中你是增加將近要到500萬在這樣的情況之下如果比疫情前你拼命的預算是成長六成"},{"start":12134.815,"end":12136.756,"text":"行政院所屬各級機關應供派員出國案件編審要點規範本院各機關及基金"},{"start":12150.746,"end":12164.936,"text":"因公派員出國都必須依照本院所定的年度預算籌編原則以及編制、概算、因行、註意事項有關規定所以在通盤檢討的審慎編制你年度派員出國的計畫跟編列"},{"start":12172,"end":12197.846,"text":"國外旅費請問審計長你比COVID-19之前你的成長預算是六成應該要遵循原則控管整個預算讓我們的預算能夠達到一個有效能所以請教你增加的這個部分是什麼呢?你的基本加入的元素是什麼?關心到這個問題第一個"},{"start":12200.809,"end":12223.283,"text":"現在我們派駐在國外,像經過的問題,我們通通要派人去查。來,慢慢講沒關係。你說你會成長比COVID-19之前達六成,你的新政策是不是?新政策以往都沒有在看?有看,有在看。那為什麼預算差那麼多呢?"},{"start":12224.924,"end":12226.747,"text":"請針對本期的提問剛剛花了兩分鐘跟你講你的背景所以針對問題提問"},{"start":12242.407,"end":12248.872,"text":"你剛剛所說的,派駐在外地的,你們通通都要去看,會增加預算,是不是?是抽查還是通通都要去看?因為這個工作是原本你的每一年例行在做,除了COVID-19的時間之外對不對?"},{"start":12260.942,"end":12267.591,"text":"所以並不是新增的嘛這是本來的預算本來的加強加強第一個加強第二個第二個我們OECD裡面有一個損棄聯盟這個是國安會要我們參加"},{"start":12277.021,"end":12300.83,"text":"新的元素是不是?國安會要叫你們明年去參加是明年要去參加嗎?以往沒有?是新的東西是不是?我們就是要去討論增加六成的原因是什麼?要讓國人知道你們的辛苦嗎?第三個是什麼呢?因為我們審計的工作要入役推展所以我要派人去學習"},{"start":12302.759,"end":12322.83,"text":"日益推展那以往都沒有日益推展以往都沒有派人去學習嗎所以你講的第三點並不是新的嘛是原本就有的啊對但是因為有聯繫上一些國外的專家或者國外的政府單位的人那所以我們還是會派人去講所以我們差不多審計長"},{"start":12323.891,"end":12351.521,"text":"因為我們在這裡回答都有錄音錄影所以我們是在討論在疫情前你的出國預算是增加了六成的原因是什麼我們在這裡來答詢主要的目的是要讓你能夠去說明但是依照你剛剛所說的三項裡頭只有第二項是新的其他都是一樣的這個本分工作那你回答一個說要加強"},{"start":12352.821,"end":12377.075,"text":"現在的機票也貴了現在的機票國外的機票也貴了現在的機票很貴會貴到六成因為多種因素匯總起來的增加你這樣子好了你把你增加在疫情前你增加的六成你們預計要怎麼做你順利資料給本席因為在這裡不能隨便答"},{"start":12378.035,"end":12399.904,"text":"您現在所說的三項裡頭只有一項是新的其他的都是您的本業工作本來就已經有在做所以我們也希望錢要花在刀口上必要的我們全力支持必要的不能胡亂讓我們的納稅錢有所爭議所以我希望您把您增加的內項目給本席多久時間給本席"},{"start":12403.045,"end":12406.066,"text":"多久時間給本席?一個禮拜最後一個議題行政院跟我們的主計長我們每一年超增稅收請問已經幾年都超增?"},{"start":12422.913,"end":12437.326,"text":"因為每一年在立法院在立法院都說你們要去做整體性的一個檢討某一個政府變成預算跟最後實際上差距很大今年大概會超增多少主計長"},{"start":12438.61,"end":12441.771,"text":"三千八百億左右目前我們大概預估是如此但是每一年每一年都會再超增"},{"start":12455.596,"end":12481.724,"text":"連續三年都超增是,從110年到現在都是有超增啦所以我們114年度的時候我們也請稅率有增加這個部分就是說它達到那個我們原來的預定、預估的部分請它再加強這方面你們也發覺到這個問題嘛每一年累計將近10年到超增那這個問題出在哪裡?是你們以後的不準還是你們的超減部署不準"},{"start":12482.604,"end":12508.311,"text":"這個都不是一個政府應當有的每一年都在調整所以您也警惕到了也請他們要再重新去審視所以114年有調整了所以114年調整所以行政院在這邊我非常的支持我們羅敏財委員所說的這一切都來自人民的納稅錢3800億在今年度一個人發一萬是最公平的"},{"start":12509.42,"end":12525.594,"text":"最公平的2300萬人還有剩下很多所以這個是最公平的所以你贊同吧 行政院報告委員你這些支出還是必須要透過預算的一個程序當然啊 原則上是希望優先來還債優先還債你現在終於講了要優先還債可是人民苦"},{"start":12532.341,"end":12542.183,"text":"所以行政院你的看法呢?最不支持將我們超收的一個人發一萬現金促進經濟消費目前我們的方向是優先還債"},{"start":12543.593,"end":12567.39,"text":"優先還債要不要考慮發現金促進經濟消費要不要 要不要 行政院現在的時機點沒有這個考慮沒有這個考慮 拿回這個功課好好去討論好不好我們希望能夠發現金 刺激消費好不好好 贊成 謝謝下一個請代會員賴昭偉"},{"start":12573.326,"end":12574.873,"text":"謝謝主席請那個主計長請陳主計長"},{"start":12581.229,"end":12601.88,"text":"主計長委員好是辛苦今天就是針對那個進入到第一頁針對的就是我們主計總處2025年的施政計畫跟主計長做一些探討因為你們編列的一般補助款還有就是"},{"start":12603.401,"end":12622.59,"text":"第二點的統計調查業務我想主計長在這裡2025年的一般事務性的一個補助款那事實上這些補助款就是說如果我們用那個調整地方的一個財政的營需還有提升地方財政的一個自主"},{"start":12623.47,"end":12647.932,"text":"那現在我們就是編列了一般性的一個補助2501億相較2024年度增加了199億大概增加了8.6%那我想你這一些補助款你大概是會用在哪些就是用在縣市的一個限職人員的待遇調整經費以外你還會用在哪些那個"},{"start":12649.193,"end":12672.62,"text":"方面我要跟委員報告的就是說一般性補助款其實必須要跟統籌分配稅款一起來談統籌分配稅款它是比較著重在直轄市然後一般性的補助款它比較著重在縣市所以它主要的一個項目主要是補助基本財政收支差短如果縣市它基本財政收支有差短我們這個優先補助"},{"start":12674.22,"end":12693.129,"text":"第二、在定額補助的部分我們會針對教育、針對社福、針對基本設施這些去做涉算比如說它有一低收入戶的人口或者這些有一些什麼基本設施或者公共設施的一個面積去做深算那這樣子的部分我們會做一個分配"},{"start":12694.049,"end":12717.277,"text":"我們就納進來統籌分配稅收我們跟補助的稅收我們一起來談那我們從這一張圖表裡頭我們可以去看到了就是說縣市政府的重要的指標的一個查詢那我們看到2023年個直轄市跟縣市的一個補助跟協助的一個收入"},{"start":12720.238,"end":12734.531,"text":"這裏頭顯然很明顯我們看得到了就是說臺北市他其實在統籌分配的稅收裏頭他拿到了很多那相對的在臺南他拿的就是少"},{"start":12735.912,"end":12740.193,"text":"統籌分配稅收款造成長期區域不均,從臺北市650億到台南331億,差距非常大"},{"start":12755.658,"end":12756.318,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":12785.35,"end":12785.63,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":12801.567,"end":12819.155,"text":"我們原則上是希望能夠均衡對,當然均衡是非常重要對,那個比較短處的一些縣市我們會給予一些的一個協助和補助那這個部分當然你就是說因為一般統籌分配稅款它主要是著重在稅收的一個分層"},{"start":12819.795,"end":12843.894,"text":"那所以相對的一些直轄市或臺北市這些會分得比較多那所以在一般性補助款的部分我們希望能夠做彌補那所以這個部分我們就會針對其他一些做測算甚至於差短會給予補助那這個部分也是做一個調整那目前其實我們都是有維持一定的成長都比往年每一年都要有一個成長的比率所以都有成長"},{"start":12845.054,"end":12861.242,"text":"主席,來自臺南,你應該非常了解本席的一個選區,如果我的選區的龍水路沒有中央的預註款的話,這個其實就是這個農民的生活落差,還有就是他們"},{"start":12862.142,"end":12884.901,"text":"最主要他們的就是尤其像我那個在白河東山這個山上啊他們有很多就是農產品他們即使收成了一年一收不管是我們的橄欖還是我們的這些橘子柳丁他如果農路是不順的話他甚至就是有都都這個價錢也會變得很差所以我們也希望就是說"},{"start":12887.262,"end":12911.777,"text":"財務支援的一個挹注那對於就是基礎建設的一個幫忙跟公共建設的一個建立這個對我們來講是有一個很大的差別那還有我們偏鄉的小學偏鄉的小學還有醫療設備這個補助所以我今天在這裡跟你探討了就是說好統籌分配的一個稅法它如果就是說我們"},{"start":12913.547,"end":12914.368,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12925.888,"end":12926.949,"text":"主席"},{"start":12956.789,"end":12968.105,"text":"這個部分我們也特別注意到剛剛也有委員也有指教這部分那這個部分因為一般地方的預算都是在地方制度法裡面來提那除此之外呢是透過中央預算編列去做補足是這樣"},{"start":12971.77,"end":12993.076,"text":"那現在是不是要再用另外一個預算法地方一個預算法來做一個另外那你又在準備嗎我們會再研究研究那這個重點是說我們因為目前提出來的版本才畫好的修改就是只把財源劃分給地方但是向外的市權沒有跟著去做調整所以這樣呢結果會造成地方會變成負債支出負債"},{"start":12994.276,"end":13012.155,"text":"你當然可以看到很大的一個問題你來自於臺南我就講臺南的高中職到目前為止只因為差別就是十億的這十幾億而已結果我們高中職我們到現在臺南市政府還不敢把他那邊進來"},{"start":13013.556,"end":13030.493,"text":"那怎麼辦呢?因為你臺南的財力事實上沒有辦法再去負擔所以當初這個部我們一直沒有承接國立高中職所以他一直還是留在中央那其他六都的部分都已經退回去了所以你現在當了主計長了應該幫臺南市想想辦法十幾億啊"},{"start":13032.995,"end":13033.476,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13050.763,"end":13051.484,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":13069.935,"end":13089.268,"text":"不管是出口還是進口的商品都讓我們看到在2025年它的經濟是會下修的顯然我們再從下一頁裡頭我們再來看到主計總處也預測今年的經濟成長率是3.90預測就是說我們的2025年經濟成長率是3.26"},{"start":13097.433,"end":13112.759,"text":"其實我們從這個數字裡頭都知道就是明年會稍微下降一點還有就是說美國總統川普回鍋的這一些嚴肅都會導致於就是說明年經濟到底成長是會上調還是會下調"},{"start":13116.192,"end":13142.154,"text":"這個部分因為如果以113年度來講的話因為前三季的成果是很亮麗所以這個部分我們本來在8月的時候預估是3.9那應該是會往上調那2025年的一個部分我們初估是3.26那這個部分呢因為2025它是不是受到美國川普總統這個一個回鍋的一個影響這個部分我們還是要評估因為我們必須它對於"},{"start":13142.734,"end":13144.956,"text":"關稅相關的一個作證但是目前我們是認為真正影響會在2026不會在2025上會在2026而不是在2025那你認為2026是會下調"},{"start":13163.756,"end":13164.116,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13179.602,"end":13205.16,"text":"天氣變冷了所以大家愛吃火鍋那吃了火鍋大家需要有很多的一個蛋用的蛋量增加了那從這個蛋價的一個物價裡頭創了四年最低那最近就是主計總處有沒有關心到這個情形那你知道現在的蛋價就是我們不講說就是那個在末端的就是說"},{"start":13206.562,"end":13232.184,"text":"在這個大賣場裡頭每公斤每台斤應該是每台斤大概是多少錢你知道嗎?因為一般一盒這樣差不多60塊啦那如果60塊又100塊那它有不同的品質、有不同的價錢嘛我就知道因為你都會上那個超市所以這一點要...對,但是我也有在雜貨店買雜貨店一般說一斤才30幾塊"},{"start":13233.585,"end":13247.687,"text":"現在臺北還有雜貨店嗎?有有有,我們市裡那邊就是很多都是雜貨店,然後它一斤才30幾塊一斤才30幾塊,那這一個單價的一個波動,你有沒有什麼比較好的一個因應的方式?"},{"start":13248.217,"end":13264.497,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":13264.737,"end":13265.338,"text":"請你密切注意這個問題"},{"start":13295.438,"end":13316.216,"text":"後續的評估會不會再延?這個很重要喔這個部分它是物價小組每一次都有在做評對然後在做決定會不會再延?因為顯然1月20號如果川普那個上台的話我想這個整個那個全世界的經濟會做很大的一個波動那你這一個"},{"start":13317.277,"end":13332.785,"text":"這一個就是這一個會延不會延其實是關係到很大的一個營物料的一個我們市場的一個問題你看我們所有那個我們的畜牧業我們都需要養障就是那個小麥所以你也沒有把握他會不會延還是你可以透露一點"},{"start":13340.68,"end":13340.96,"text":"現在的質詢請陳培瑜陳委員"},{"start":13369.236,"end":13387.064,"text":"有請主計長、審計長陳主計長、陳審計長瑞敏好,我想我們就快速時間有限了我想請問一下主計長你知不知道我們去泰國一張機票多少錢?"},{"start":13388.701,"end":13415.994,"text":"沒關係好啦我跟你說我們要考大家體育署呢今年補助出國儀訓的部分來看學校新南向大概是一萬塊到一萬二這個很合理跟我們去所有網站上看差不多來看下一張那可是呢2024年體育單項協會儀訓參賽部分泰國大概是一萬三到兩萬四比起剛剛那個學校新南向多一點點但可能是因為各個運動項目的不同也還在合理範圍好我們來看下一張可是我們發現喔足球、足協"},{"start":13417.494,"end":13439.405,"text":"他們到泰國一張變3萬塊、日俄島變3萬3,完全不合理甚至在12場棒球賽之前,其實去日本用這樣的價格其實可以買到商務艙那我想要問一下依照政府採購法,如果人政府的補助都是要經過招標可是臺灣足球基層質疑的是為什麼足協買的機票都這麼貴下一張,而且重點是政府都會買單那他們就招標公告就出去了"},{"start":13446.408,"end":13474.035,"text":"那以後我們來看一下這是足協的問題嗎還是我們來看一下別的協會來下一張橄欖球協會呢他們就知道他們的標案當中就知道要訂定每個人上線新台幣一萬八千元整那也就是說同樣都是單項協會同樣都接受體育署的補助那體育署呢就讓足協去跟旅行社直接用市場行情的三倍去採購所以呢我們才會收到這麼這麼多這麼多的陳情齁我看到主計長你一直皺眉頭你一直想說怎麼會這樣"},{"start":13476.115,"end":13504.703,"text":"好這是買機票的部分有問題來下一張足球比賽的轉播到底要花多少錢我也不要考您了來下一張體育組給我們的資料裡面呢在改選前跟108跟12以後2022年以前不管是五人制、十一人制足學的轉播補助申請金額大概都跟市場相符可是2023年以後從一場30萬變成了130萬那我想要問一下這樣的補助到底是怎麼"},{"start":13505.203,"end":13515.733,"text":"通過審查那我們的主計跟審計單位到底對於轉播或是我剛剛講的求那個機票的事情我們到底有沒有審核的能力呢我們來看一下他們就給了我們這邊一張發票轉播費用從30萬變成120萬他們說的理由是我們多了一個電視平台的上架多了4個OTT"},{"start":13523.661,"end":13547.737,"text":"我們來看一下這四個OTT是哪些是Harmony Media、歡樂看、Line TV跟4G線上影視這是多的然後再多了一個有線電視台可是我們有問過業界的行情像這樣子了不起多30萬四個平台加一個電視台就可以搞定為什麼體育署就這樣相信足協的說法我們要怎麼樣讓球迷相信政府真的對於預算的使用有把關的能力我們來看下一張這麼多"},{"start":13550.765,"end":13574.583,"text":"一、二十的賽事轉播三天六個場次一樣給我們看到發票一張就三百萬體育署說有招標沒問題可是我們來看一下招標的委員會我認為有問題其中有四個委員是內部委員是足協內部委員那還有兩個一個是2018年足協的秘書長他也有相關的爭議只剩下一個外部的委員我們認為這樣的審查其實非常的有問題再來"},{"start":13577.628,"end":13593.841,"text":"行政單位的膨脹失控的部分我們來再跟主計長報告一下在4月份跟審計部討論我們有提醒你們111年體育署6年足球計畫它以參賽補助吸引非足球隊伍報名換隊費造成決算超支一億的問題再來"},{"start":13596.503,"end":13620.929,"text":"大型賽事的問題到今年9月底體育署在國際體育交流的部分預算3億9千萬執行已經到了6億4千萬超支了2億5千萬導致今年下半年很多隊伍要出國都被擋住說沒有錢主計審計你們真的可以接受這種說法嗎?到底這個用錢的方法沒有問題嗎?甚至他們還公佈去年喔體育署還公佈國際賽事補助單項協會如果有盈餘不用繳回"},{"start":13622.229,"end":13648.627,"text":"這樣真的可以嗎?最後時間我們要求主計審計要全面查查相關狀況不要讓政府這些資源尤其在各個單項協會跟體育署之間的關係是這麼多錯綜複雜我們看不懂我們怎麼追都追不到資料我們一再一再質詢所以我今天必須要把這個題目送到主計跟審計面前希望你們為國人為臺灣的政府預算把關這邊可以快速回應一下一個月內提供給我們相關調查報告跟改善機制"},{"start":13649.287,"end":13656.514,"text":"是,是,這我們來檢討,我們也來採訪好,那我們相關資料會再跟主計長某大公司這個約,好不好?好,是好,謝謝,謝謝好,謝謝佩儀委員,接著請洪孟凱委員質詢來,主席謝謝,麻煩請審計長好,審計長"},{"start":13680.302,"end":13694.591,"text":"來審計長我快速的來了解一下現在大家有講是說這個前勞動部長他辦所謂的性別平等法20週年的演唱會那是用這個所謂的勞動安定就業安定基金"},{"start":13696.013,"end":13714.615,"text":"確實嘛對不對那你上午有答詢的時候講是說這個就業安定基金裡面有政令宣導的部分是不是來我想請教一下就業安定基金它是有法條喔第5條裡面本基金用途如下12款的用途哪一款裡面寫到政令宣導"},{"start":13716.705,"end":13738.645,"text":"他是放在促進國民就業的計畫那裡邊有拉出來一個促進國民就業也就是第二個嘛加強實施職業訓練或是就業資訊的事項或者是加強實施就業安定跟就業促進的事項你用這樣子的邏輯去幫他講說這是政令宣導"},{"start":13742.048,"end":13767.305,"text":"我想請教一下他的科目他在預算書裡面就列有政令宣導這樣的科目會不會太牽強了一點因為就業基金就業安定基金他是有法條法條第5條裡面本基金用途12款的部分有權益基金的支出有管理跟總務的支出有其他用途的支出但就沒有所謂的政令宣導啊那還有"},{"start":13769.517,"end":13775.16,"text":"審計長我想請教姑女的願望跟性別平等的政令宣導有什麼關係"},{"start":13777.781,"end":13803.543,"text":"我的心裡只有你沒有他委員就這樣齁跟政令宣導有什麼關係這現在我們正在查我只是說你有沒有看過那個演唱會的影片有也有看過那你的感想是什麼中華民國人民的納稅錢我們站在審計單位的立場可以這樣子花嗎我們會整個瞭解以後會提出報告"},{"start":13804.464,"end":13818.619,"text":"會提出報告,你今天上午有講一個月嘛,對不對?那本席有在看到,也有媒體報導講是說這個北分署長他的辦公室裝潢145萬,說也是用就業安定基金來支出,是不是真的?"},{"start":13819.352,"end":13846.451,"text":"目前瞭解是這樣但是我們還是要也是用就業安定基金瞭解的情形是會不會太過腐爛阿所以我們會整個成盤那這樣子過去到現在人家講說就業安定基金變成勞動部的小金庫原來不是傳言是事實阿我要裝潢可以用就業安定基金我要辦演唱會滿足自己的慾望可以用就業安定基金我是要選一個孤女的願望"},{"start":13848.032,"end":13868.941,"text":"大家互相幫助一下、打破壞一下那這跟政令宣...然後我們還要動用到我們的審計長在委員會裡面質詢的時候、答詢的時候還要幫他圓這個是政令宣導他是...我們初步了解是...來,所以一個月一個月會不會太久?其實說實在話"},{"start":13870.922,"end":13893.251,"text":"審計長這都已經核銷了嗎?因為這個整個政績啊我們的審計有審計的一個對那這都已經核銷啦那那核銷你所以是不是可以再加快速度我覺得這個國人真的沒有辦法接受呢而且我們還要審明年的預算如果說這樣的話我就覺得說我們審計部門沒有研究的把關我們盡量來快一點"},{"start":13894.131,"end":13912.75,"text":"可以多快?兩個禮拜是不是?連核銷的部分連那個145萬的裝潢費啊我們都因為這個總是要有一些程序所以一個月內的報告是連他那時候核銷到底用什麼樣的科目什麼樣的名目都會出來"},{"start":13916.594,"end":13945.054,"text":"審計長我再給你看一下你看一下這個是刑事警察局給本席整理的資料打詐國人都很重視詐騙國人都很重視我也看到了你們今天審計的資料裡面有特別講是說打詐專案我們來做一個確認跟審計嘛對不對對就是說過去政府部門要人給人要錢給錢就是要打詐對你看一下以你那麼數字敏感的程度喔你看一下有沒有一個money"},{"start":13946.462,"end":13951.065,"text":"108年到112年發生的件數都是2萬多件到3萬件損失的財損40幾億、50幾億、70幾億、80幾億逐年增加但突然間到113年1月到10月變成7萬多件274億的財損"},{"start":13969.437,"end":13987.058,"text":"有很多人就跟我們講啊就說委員啊基層的公務同仁基層的警務同仁跟我們講啊委員啊你都被人騙了政府很厲害的都會美化數字啊所以之前一年可能台灣被詐騙的數字是百億以上啊"},{"start":13987.859,"end":14005.596,"text":"根本不是我們現在報出來的四五十億啊那結果過去這幾年財損都是四五十億然後發生件數都是兩三萬件今年突然變成是七萬多件我想應該不會是今年的兩種可能嘛一個就是說今年詐騙集團突然變特別厲害"},{"start":14007.475,"end":14019.039,"text":"所以說詐騙特別多一個就是過去的數字都美化了過去的數字都隱匿了過去的數字都沒有如實的登記所以說才會變成是突然間從112年的3萬多件變113年的7萬多件翻了進一整倍委員這詐欺是國民的痛對"},{"start":14032,"end":14048.429,"text":"今年還是會加強專案調查所以我們也會出一個專案調查報告我剛剛也希望這個是慢慢的審計長本席提出來你是要督促這些單位不要美化數字"},{"start":14049.409,"end":14075.567,"text":"我今天為什麼會在這邊特別提出來就是說你要了解的是你今天的年度報告裡面也有講到是說督促我們所有政府部門的打仗但如果說過去這幾次全部都是隱匿的建樹或是隱匿的財損那我們就跟我們的財主單位報換句話以神龍永料我預算都用完了我們就是這樣子結果才發現說過去這幾年根本就是美化數字根本就是美化相關的一個建樹"},{"start":14076.428,"end":14094.882,"text":"那我們財主單位不知道我們國人也被蒙在鼓裡那這樣不是很嚴重嗎?從這個數字看政府已經正式變做出了問題所以代表說過去是沒有面對過去都悶在圖裡面當駝鳥審計長本席要求的是審計單位要多出我們的單位不能有隱匿數字、美化數字、造假數字"},{"start":14104.67,"end":14133.74,"text":"好那接著請葉延芝委員質詢主席好,麻煩請人事行政總局人事行政總處副人事長"},{"start":14139.426,"end":14154.817,"text":"副院長你好剛剛有那個勞動部內部的員工爆料新任的勞動部長在這個11月30號跟12月1號每天早上9點鐘到第一天是到5點然後第二天是到4點"},{"start":14156.959,"end":14174.471,"text":"連續兩天都要求同仁來跟他做業務報告那裡面有的同仁是連續兩天要上班包括陳次長名人還有綜合規劃司的同仁連續兩天都要上班那這個內部員工就很不高興就說勞動"},{"start":14176.713,"end":14196.955,"text":"不一天到晚跟其他企業宣傳說HR不能七天上班可是他們卻必須要犧牲休假的時間然後假日連續兩天來上班這是剛剛勞動部的人講的我想請教一下副理事長在公家機關公務人員是可以這樣子連續上班的嗎"},{"start":14199.442,"end":14222.177,"text":"當然原則上我們是週休二日但是如果有特殊的需要工勤務上的需要、業務上的需要是來加班可以報加班所以在法令上連續上七天班在公務人員這個部分是OK的有特殊的情形、特殊情形那一般的企業可不可以特殊情形連續上七天班可以嗎"},{"start":14224.192,"end":14251.246,"text":"可以嗎一般企業對可以嗎那一般企業他如果說特殊情形就不用一例一休雇主請他特別出來那當然就是按勞基法的規定所以一般企業是可以在特殊情況之下連續上七天班你剛剛的意思我沒有聽錯吧就是說他如果是因為被雇主特別要求出來就可以是不是看有沒有適合就可以我不曉得有沒有適合勞基法婦人是"},{"start":14252.107,"end":14266.769,"text":"委員長居然講了一個跟勞基法完全完全相反的如果符合勞基法規定才可以那我就問你嘛我就問一般企業可不可以勞工連續上企業班可不可以這問題很難回答嗎可不可以可不可以"},{"start":14268.123,"end":14289.154,"text":"一般當然勞工的話他也要有休閒不可以嘛不可以嘛一般勞工勞動部跟一般的企業講說勞工不可以連續上七天班但是勞動部勞動部他叫別人不能這樣做但是他現在在內部要求他們員工可能假日通通都要上班要上七天班人事長說可以"},{"start":14289.734,"end":14318.66,"text":"人事長剛剛講說只要特殊需求就可以所以因為我們服務如果是公務人員他服務的公共事務他有特殊的需要所以OK的嘛OK的嘛所以勞動所以那這樣子因為剛剛勞動部特別啊那個員工還說啊他們被下封口令說他們的勞動部的長官要求他們不能對外宣傳那如果按照副人事長的講法這是OK的啊這個因為是服務公眾嘛所以你們又不是一般的勞工你連續上期天班有什麼好講的"},{"start":14319.6,"end":14338.111,"text":"那幹嘛要下封口令啊我現在不管是不是特別原因嘛反正現在就是說有上班嘛那你的意思是說OK嘛因為特殊原因OK嘛那為什麼要下封口令為什麼要下封口令你覺得你揣測一下"},{"start":14339.291,"end":14356.557,"text":"幹麻怕人家知道就無從去揣測所以我是覺得部長的這個您的宣誓啦感覺上好像公務人員假日上班你也不覺得有怎麼樣你是覺得OK的啦那靜情形才可以啦"},{"start":14358.098,"end":14380.111,"text":"那一般企業可不可以特殊情形然後找勞工連續上企業辦可不可以一般企業可不可以那看他符不符合勞基法的相關規定那符不符合嘛符不符合所以我就你不知道我們那個人事行政總署的官員居然連勞基法的規定不知道雖然不是你主管業務但是你是管公務人員的那你連勞工的相關規定都不曉得我真的是蠻訝異的那接下來請主計長請主計長"},{"start":14384.793,"end":14409.576,"text":"主計長跟審計長一起好了,因為我節省時間委員好主計長,那個,還是勞動部的問題啊那個前勞動部長挪用了就業安定基金然後去辦演唱會,花了365萬那剛剛審計長有說會調查嘛,會調查我就問啦,請問一下一般的機關在使用預算的時候,要不要審計蓋章"},{"start":14411.428,"end":14438.385,"text":"要不要?要不要主計蓋章?對不起,要不要主計蓋章?要不要?呃,他會有請購的一個程序你需不需要蓋章?回答問題就好,需要嘛齁那合宵的時候要不要主計蓋章?要那如果說到時候調查出來,許民春這個東西是不應該的那主計,主計要負什麼責任?這個部分因為我們必須要看第一個他提出來的時候他是寫舉辦性別工作平等相關的一個規範"},{"start":14439.816,"end":14466.55,"text":"他在請購的時候經過那個主計他就認為他要辦這個業務是OK的所以他如果有欺騙主計的行為所以他當事人要對他的事實做負責那主計就是你是隨便蓋章喔不是他是就程序的一個程序蓋章而已嘛但是實際上大家期待主計是要審核嘛不是說只是程序上蓋章而已嘛另外一個我問一下那個謝怡榮前分署長"},{"start":14467.369,"end":14472.212,"text":"他挪用了一百多萬就要你進行去裝潢他的辦公室可以嗎?主計可以嗎?"},{"start":14475.11,"end":14502.877,"text":"這個部分也必須要看因為當初他...不是 這就不可以啊我跟你講今天根據勞發署自己的說法說救安基金可以為了要提供服務必要可以去裝潢辦公室但是要符合比例原則啊所以當時主計在看的時候你就會發現說哇 你拿一百多萬去裝潢辦公室有這個必要嗎就不應該蓋章啊那時候怎麼會就蓋了咧所以這個部分然後勞動部的次長說非常不妥當"},{"start":14503.757,"end":14532.497,"text":"那非常不可放,結果呢?還不是一樣讓他去做。請問一下,假設部長要裝到辦公室,要不要張到次長那邊?不知道,看他們內部的審核的成績嗎?但是主計一定會嘛。我現在問完了,我再一句話就好。第一個就是申請的時候要蓋章,核銷要蓋章。那你都沒有發現說,他這個是非常不符合比例原則嗎?"},{"start":14534.574,"end":14555.78,"text":"因為這個部分我們也是要查一下他實際的狀況是怎麼樣才有辦法跟委員來報告的好那請你查一下好不好稍微那個才試一下好那就是我想在這裡那個主計長盡速盡速那個查核的資料送給那個葉言之委員好謝謝謝謝葉言之那接著請黃珊珊委員諮詢"},{"start":14565.223,"end":14570.087,"text":"現在主席我想請主計長、人事總處還有審計長主計長、審計長還有我們人事總處副人事長委員好委員好"},{"start":14581.539,"end":14605.425,"text":"是,三位好我想剛剛大家都在問喔勞動部的這個勞動發展署前署長他所做的這些所謂的霸凌還有可能不符合預算程序的這些行為我想問一下霸凌的主管機關是人事總處是嗎?歐務委員有關霸凌的處理是應該人事總處來管理嗎?"},{"start":14606.603,"end":14630.409,"text":"我們總是為了希望各機關建立友善的環境所以有定一個指引但是沒有強制力是嗎所以要求各機關能夠按指引來做所以現在你有沒有辦法掌握全臺灣的公務機關霸凌的案件有多少還是要等到這個行政院長他說7天之內要處理你才會知道有人在列管嗎 有人在關心嗎"},{"start":14631.671,"end":14647.491,"text":"我們最近有去調查有去統計所以平常沒有人管理平常人事總處有沒有管理這方面的案件我會在各個我們的市當場有先跟我們的人事機構宣導要去重視這個結論就是沒在管啦你在宣導而已我現在就講因為"},{"start":14648.852,"end":14666.088,"text":"院長說的話所以現在所有的立法委員都接到很多的霸凌的投訴我這邊就有一個警政署所屬單位的投訴他是正式提出申訴而且正式開過調查委員會但是機關裡面很清楚我們有個規定是得請專家學者"},{"start":14668.99,"end":14683.16,"text":"這個機關全部的調查委員都是內部人完全沒有任何的外部人員所以類似的案件人事總處你只能定職營但是你沒有做列管也沒有做改革對嗎你都不知道嘛"},{"start":14684.52,"end":14699.468,"text":"你完全沒有統計資料嗎所以今天我在這邊就是希望人事總處應該扛起這個責任至少要做列管至少要去追蹤至少要去考核而不是等到院長在行政院會講話這樣子很丟臉啊好嗎統計管理考核最重要是追蹤來審計長"},{"start":14709.087,"end":14726.337,"text":"剛剛講的除了勞動部的這個事情之外其實全國的霸凌案件你們雖然是審計單位你認為有沒有必要針對這個部分包括他剛剛講的這些預算的濫刑使用進行專案的審計包括霸凌案件"},{"start":14727.297,"end":14728.198,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":14753.593,"end":14756.641,"text":"剛剛說的主計處是政府的"},{"start":14757.847,"end":14783.298,"text":"管家婆、審計部是政府的防腐劑那人事總處其實是公務員的守護神你們這三個單位要確保這個政府他是公平的他的同仁在裡面工作是受到保護的最重要的是不要讓任何人可以上下其手而不經過所有的制度這是三位很重要的責任"},{"start":14784.679,"end":14799.914,"text":"主計長剛剛講的如果審計部是管後面那你前面剛剛很多委員說的前面的主計人員在相關預算的使用上面我們應該付出什麼樣的責任還是就是閉著眼睛蓋章"},{"start":14801.007,"end":14817.132,"text":"其實原則上我們在進行內部審核的時候是要就整個所以主計處的頭人他是主計一條邊其實他就應該扮演在機關裡面說實話的那個人他應該說清楚這個不宜"},{"start":14818.152,"end":14840.504,"text":"不可以我在臺北市的時候我們的主計長常常就是在做剎車皮所以我希望主計處除了剛剛講的審計要去做專案審查你的主計也要通令全國的主計同仁發現類似這樣不合邏輯的預算執行可能都要先舉手甚至要提告甚至要"},{"start":14842.433,"end":14861.512,"text":"報出來。不要等到什麼民眾爆料,我們現在都靠爆料在過日子啊,好嗎?所以人事總處的副人事長,剛剛講的,現在你應該建立一個機制,怎麼樣把霸凌成為人事總處去列管各機關相關執行公務,當公務員的保護神啊?"},{"start":14866.981,"end":14887.893,"text":"不能只是宣導你只有只是宣導然後最後是行政院長出來講我覺得這樣人事總處很失職好嗎好 謝謝接下來我想副人事長可以請回然後我請審計長審計長知道我們之前財政部發生了一件事情就是我們弄了一個雲端電子發票的獎"},{"start":14889.505,"end":14915.552,"text":"抽獎然後有四個人在三波抽獎重大獎然後造成大家認為財政部的公信力受損你有注意到這件事嗎?有這個案子審計部要不要也去做一個專案審計啊?這個我們會瞭解這個我相信啦公務員也不會因為區區的獎品故意拿他的指牙開玩笑但是他的機制的確出了問題現在的問題就在於主計長我這邊也要請教齁"},{"start":14917.172,"end":14933.651,"text":"臺北不要說臺北全臺灣我們都在推所謂的電子發票財政部這麼認真努力用力的推電子發票還鬧出了這個大烏龍電子發票在臺灣所有的國人到113年9月使用載具儲存的已經高達58%將近六成"},{"start":14936.594,"end":14951.369,"text":"臺北市的市民更高達7成也就是使用雲端發票的載具的民眾已經非常多了那推廣電子發票也是重要的國策那現在重點是要結合電子帳務包括商家包括政府"},{"start":14952.269,"end":14967.534,"text":"稅務申報、經費支持而且最重要是它不會被偽造現在的問題就在於你有關政府部門使用電子發票或者是要求電子核銷的比例在我看來還是太慢了主計長你自己認為勒?"},{"start":14968.635,"end":14994.933,"text":"因為我要跟委員報告就是使用電子發票這個部分的業務是財政部是在推動是那我們是負責整個結報系統可是你是負責結算嘛報帳嘛報帳的部分這個在財政中心在105年就已經拜訪過臺北市臺北市在109年電子核銷的比例已經高達99%也就是說由政府來帶頭要求廠商或者是跟有電子發票的廠商做相關的採購這個已經成為政府帶動"},{"start":14998.896,"end":15010.455,"text":"所謂電子發票實用的很重要的里程碑99%你其他的機關現在做到多少?中央政府的機關有沒有在推?有沒有比例?有沒有KPI?"},{"start":15011.618,"end":15029.874,"text":"目前我們是達到26%26%到99%還有很遠很遠的距離所以我們也是在努力一個政府不能夠有三套事情財政部拼命在推可是我們政府部門沒有把這個當成重要的採購的條件你知道我們"},{"start":15031.636,"end":15060.12,"text":"我們的考察主計總處你們在105年考察新加坡的時候人家新加坡不知道民國幾年前就已經是全部電子發票了這個是你們考察自己的報告寫的啊所以主計長您信任主計長這個要不要成為你重要的政策推廣之一啊第二個主計總處在今年5月29號到財委會業務報告說這個是未來數位化政府的趨勢請問你要不要定出一個具體的方向"},{"start":15061.519,"end":15090.074,"text":"因為本身主要是搭配財政部的電子發票主計處要有自己的立場你全部的核銷都要求電子發票的話財政部會輕鬆很多如果我們今天相關的機關出去買東西希望它有電子發票很多的商家會慢慢轉型過來我們要的是以公代私公部門開始引領我相信很多的商家臺北市為什麼能夠推廣"},{"start":15090.874,"end":15110.73,"text":"因為後來很多的商家都主動說我要申請電子發票因為這樣子我可以做到公部門的相關賣個便當也可以有電子發票的話他就比較容易被選到這是以公代私我是今天希望主計長你訂出一個未來的目標多久達到50%多久達到80%多久達到90%"},{"start":15116.027,"end":15141.438,"text":"所以我們這個部分我們進來再研究說看是要怎樣不要再研究了啦這個是政府的政策啦好不好你訂出一個相關的時程表至少要努力達到50%中央政府到現在為止沒有都加入第二個你做了一個平台也很少目前使用狀況也不好第三個就是大家沒有把這個當成一個KPI你如果頒個獎喔就會很多人往上走啦"},{"start":15141.998,"end":15171.028,"text":"主計處最喜歡頒獎嘛對不對頒獎之後地方政府就會跟著跑過來爭取所以其實是你們要不要定出這個方向數位化政府不是說假的數位化政府要自己先做起如果數位化政府是我們賴總統或卓院長的重要政策我希望主計長在這個月底我希望有個初步的未來一年、兩年、三年你的目標值然後給地方政府定出相關的獎勵方案"},{"start":15172.969,"end":15193.718,"text":"一個月之內給我一個答案好嗎不能沒有方向如果臺北市可以做到99%我相信六都一定做得到只是時程我們不要給公務員太大的壓力但是要往這個方向走不要讓財政部一個人在做啦他拼命在做頒獎在做抽獎公部門沒有人理他"},{"start":15195.178,"end":15215.873,"text":"公務門的發票還是一樣用原始的方法每天在那邊貼來貼去那個很容易出錯嘛而且可能做假嘛所以電子發票是一個很好的方法數位國家不要說空話好嗎來審計部我也希望你把電子核銷成為你們在審計上面其實你們會不會比較輕鬆嘛"},{"start":15217.952,"end":15241.264,"text":"如果有電子發票系統的話對會很輕鬆很多吧對 謝謝不用一個一個查核嘛不用看年天每一張單據嘛好不好好我想這個部分就請兩位訂出臺灣數位化政府有關電子核銷使用電子發票的未來的計畫時程表跟你要達到的KPI然後跟地方政府好好的溝通好嗎好 謝謝謝謝"},{"start":15245.327,"end":15263.303,"text":"主計和審計在一個月內提出這樣的計畫給黃森山委員鄭天才、鄭天才、鄭天才委員不在林楚英、林楚英、林楚英委員不在何新淳、何新淳、何新淳委員不在"},{"start":15264.183,"end":15286.573,"text":"蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在鄭振泉、鄭振泉、鄭振泉委員不在那主席在這裡宣告今日登記花園的委員均已詢答完畢現在進行討論事項跟臨時提案的處理那依請醫事人員先讀今日審查預算案的審查項目那預算的提案共84案"},{"start":15288.632,"end":15293.416,"text":"議計宣讀時間是20分鐘宣讀完畢以後議計是13點15分我們要進行協商沒有相關提案的機關列席代表"},{"start":15305.427,"end":15322.773,"text":"都可以先行離開但是行政院、財政部、人事總處人事總處要預留一位同仁在現場可以諮詢協商那其他的同仁可以在現場用餐那我們現在請議事人員先讀"},{"start":15330.7,"end":15349.93,"text":"宣讀審查項目114年度中央政府總預算案行政院主計總處稅務部分第二款罰款及賠償收入第六項主計總處無劣數第一幕罰金、罰還及貸金無劣數第二幕沒錄及沒收財務無劣數第三幕賠償收入無劣數第三款規費收入"},{"start":15350.37,"end":15370.831,"text":"第五項主計總處九萬七千元第一幕使用規約收入九萬七千元第四款財產收入第七項主計總處三十九萬六千元第一幕財產支息二十六萬六千元第二幕廢借物資售價十三萬元第七款其他收入第七項主計總處八十九萬五千元第一幕雜項收入八十九萬五千元"},{"start":15371.852,"end":15384.379,"text":"行政院主計總處說出部分第二款行政院主管第二項主計總處14億6643萬1千元第一幕一般行政914174萬3千元第二幕中央總預算合編及執行531萬4千元第三幕特種基金預算合編及執行266萬1千元第四幕會計及決算業務"},{"start":15395.786,"end":15396.587,"text":"審計部及所屬稅率部分"},{"start":15425.462,"end":15447.827,"text":"第二款﹐罰款及賠償收入第六十三項﹐審計部無劣數第一幕﹐賠償收入無劣數第六十四項﹐審計部臺北市審計處無劣數第一幕﹐賠償收入無劣數第六十五項﹐審計部高雄市審計處無劣數第一幕﹐賠償收入無劣數第四款﹐財產收入第六十九項﹐審計部123萬3千元第一幕﹐財產資期108萬5千元第二幕﹐廢舊物資售價"},{"start":15452.668,"end":15475.98,"text":"14萬8千元。第七十項,審計部臺北市審計處3萬2千元。第一幕財產支息1萬2千元。第二幕廢借物資售價2萬元。第七十一項,審計部新北市審計處1萬2千元。第一幕財產支息1萬1千元。第二幕廢借物資售價1千元。第七十二項,審計部桃園市審計處5千元。第一幕財產支息4千元。"},{"start":15476.42,"end":15493.82,"text":"第二幕、廢借物資售價一千元第七三項、審計部臺中市審計處五千元第一幕、財產支息三千元第二幕、廢借物資售價兩千元第七四項、審計部臺中市審計處十二萬七千元第一幕、財產支息十二萬五千元第二幕、廢借物資售價兩千元"},{"start":15494.781,"end":15510.084,"text":"第75項審計部高雄市審計處4萬元第1目財產支息4萬元第2目廢借物資售價無劣數第7款其他收入第69項審計部103萬5千元第1目雜項收入103萬5千元第70項審計部臺北市審計處1萬6千元第1目雜項收入1萬6千元第71項審計部新北市審計處8千元第1目雜項收入8千元第72項"},{"start":15523.707,"end":15532.194,"text":"審計部臺原市審計處無劣訴、第一目雜項收入無劣訴、第73項審計部臺中市審計處無劣訴、第一目雜項收入無劣訴、第74項審計部臺南市審計處無劣訴、第一目雜項收入無劣訴"},{"start":15538.929,"end":15548.959,"text":"審計部及所屬稅出部分第二款兼查案主管第二項審計部13億6,115萬5千元第一幕一般行政12億4,064萬6千元第二幕中央政府審計7,418萬6千元第三幕縣市地方審計996萬3千元第四幕一般建築及設備3,298萬5千元"},{"start":15560.31,"end":15568.778,"text":"第五目第一預備金337萬5千元第三項審計部臺北市審計處8457萬2千元第一目一般行政8274萬元第二目審計業務175萬2千元第三目第一預備金8萬元第四項審計部新北市審計處7043萬7千元第一目一般行政"},{"start":15581.949,"end":15607.106,"text":"六千八百五十五萬七千元。第二目,審計業務一百八十萬元。第三目,第一預備金八萬元。第五項,審計部臺原市審計處六千六百四十七萬四千元。第一目,一般行政六千五百三十四萬四千元。第二目,審計業務一百零五萬元。第三目,第一預備金八萬元。第二項,審計部臺中市審計處七千三百九十九萬元。第一目,一般行政七千兩百四十五萬八千元。"},{"start":15608.007,"end":15621.071,"text":"第二目、審計業務145萬2千元第三目、一般建築及設備無列處第四目、第一域備金8萬元第七項、審計部臺南市審計處6912萬6千元第一目、一般行政6744萬元第二目、審計業務160萬6千元第三目、第一域備金8萬元第八項、審計部高雄市審計處8335萬元第一目、一般行政8173萬2千元第二目、審計業務153萬8千元"},{"start":15636.135,"end":15651.458,"text":"第三目第一預備金8萬元直轄市及縣市政府調整軍公教人員待遇準備、災厄準備金及第二預備金稅出部分第二十六款直轄市及縣市政府2501億1279萬元第一項直轄市及縣市一般性補助款2501億1279萬元第一目"},{"start":15658.18,"end":15669.808,"text":"直轄市及縣市交易補助659億412萬1千元第二幕直轄市及縣市交通補助110億元第三幕直轄市及縣市其他經濟服務補助373億1104萬元第四幕直轄市及縣市社會保險補助10億1811萬8千元第五幕直轄市及縣市社會救助補助79億1843萬4千元第二幕直轄市及縣市福利服務"},{"start":15686.418,"end":15696.989,"text":"補助527億6,096萬8千元第7目直轄日期縣市其他基本財政支出補助222億10萬9千元第8目直轄日期縣市平衡預算補助520億元第27款調整軍工價能源待遇補助99億3107萬9千元第28款災害準備金50億元第29款第二預備金80億元"},{"start":15711.274,"end":15739.917,"text":"委員提案部分行政院主計總處提案共60案第一案一般行政檢列500萬元委員體驗秀等3人提案第二案一般行政檢列200萬元委員陳玉珍等4人提案第三案一般行政凍結20%委員黃湘湘等3人提案第四案一般行政凍結400萬元委員黃湘湘等4人提案第五案基本行政工作流行向下通訊類檢列200萬元委員郭國文等3人提案第六案"},{"start":15740.638,"end":15755.73,"text":"通訊類檢列60萬元為耐事保等三明題案。第七案政府內部控制監督機制規劃及監督向下業務費檢列22萬元為王世堅等三明題案。第八案政府內部控制監督規劃"},{"start":15757.271,"end":15774.927,"text":"機制規劃及督導、凍結5%、委員黃珊珊等3人提案。第九案中央總預算合編及執行減淚100萬元、委員陳玉珍等4人提案。第十案中央總預算合編及執行凍結1%、委員李燕秀等3人提案。第十案"},{"start":15775.347,"end":15787.594,"text":"中央總預算合編及執行、凍結10%、委員陳玉珍等4人提案第12案中央總預算合編及執行、凍結5%、委員黃雙雙等3人提案第13案中央總預算合編及執行、凍結5%、委員黃雙雙等3人提案第14案中央總預算之合編與執行、凍結20%、委員吳立華等3人提案第15案"},{"start":15797.259,"end":15817.124,"text":"中央總預算之合併與執行向下一般事務費-50萬元為耐事保等商用提案第16案中央總預算之合併與執行向下一般事務費-5萬元為離昆城等商用提案第16案地方政府主計業務之督導與查核向下業務費-15萬元為耐事保等商用提案第17案"},{"start":15818.844,"end":15847.083,"text":"將這五主計業務之督導與查核凍結20萬元委員嚴寬衡等三人提案。第十九案特種基金預算合編及執行向下業務費減略20萬元委員賴世寶等三人提案。第二十二案特種基金預算合備及執行凍結100萬元委員李燕縣等三人提案。第二十一案特種基金預算合編及執行凍結20%委員黃雙雙等三人提案。第二十二案特種基金預算合編及執行凍結20%委員黃雙雙等三人提案。第二十三案"},{"start":15847.443,"end":15875.953,"text":"特種基金預算核編輯執行凍結20%委員黃雙雙等三人提案第14案特種基金預算核編輯執行凍結20%委員黃雙雙等三人提案第25案特種基金預算核編輯執行凍結20%委員顏寬恒等三人提案第26案特種基金預算核編輯執行凍結20%委員吳立華等三人提案第27案特種基金預算核編輯執行凍結10%委員陳玉珍等四人提案第28案特種基金預算核編輯執行"},{"start":15878.053,"end":15906.123,"text":"凍結20萬元委員郭國文等三人提案。第29案會計事務處理及決算合編凍結100萬元委員郭國文等三人提案。第30案會計及決算業務向下違範費檢列100萬元委員李燕秀等三人提案。第31案綜合統計業務凍結300萬元委員郭國文等三人提案。第32案辦理統計行政與統計標準向下業務費凍結30%委員王世堅等三人提案。第33案辦理綜合統計"},{"start":15910.671,"end":15926.984,"text":"凍結10%委員賴慧穎等三人提案第三次案,辦理綜合統計向下業務費資、贈送物價調查、金融業概況調查、民營電廠營運及投資概況調查、傳播業營收及固定投資概況調查與服業營運及投資概況調查、廠商紀念品"},{"start":15928.945,"end":15953.595,"text":"凍結20%委員黃珊珊等3人提案。第三十五案國際普查業務檢列500萬元委員陳玉珍等4人提案。第三十六案國際普查業務向下辦理農林營運業普查檢列1000萬元委員體育秀等3人提案。第三十七案辦理農林營運業普查向下一般事務費檢列80萬元委員賴世保等3人提案。第三十八案普查資訊供應管理及發展向下資訊服務費"},{"start":15955.135,"end":15979.972,"text":"檢列50萬元委員賴思寶等三人提案。第三十九案國務統計凍結二分之一委員李恩秀等三人提案。第四十案各機關統計調查局、調查網管理凍結10%委員吳立華等三人提案。第四十一案主計資訊業務檢列500萬元委員陳玉珍等四人提案。第四十二案主計資訊業務凍結5%委員黃雙雙等三人提案。第四十三案主計資訊業務凍結200萬元委員郭國文等三人提案。第四十四案"},{"start":15985.135,"end":15988.778,"text":"稅計資、會計資訊管理向下資訊服務費減略100萬元委員賴思寶等3MT案第45案統計及行政資訊管理向下資訊服務費減略100萬元委員賴思寶等3MT案第46案"},{"start":15999.265,"end":16019.5,"text":"資訊系統維域管理向下資訊服務費減略200萬元委員大司保等三名提案第47案經費結報及薪資資訊管理向下資訊服務費減略120萬元委員大司保等三名提案第48案其他設備向下設備及投資減略4000萬元委員王世堅等三名提案第49案其他設備"},{"start":16021.406,"end":16029.537,"text":"簡略500萬元為陳玉珍等4人提案。第50案其他設備向下資訊軟硬體設備費簡略600萬元為賴思寶等3人提案。主決議第51案要求主計總處將經費流用上限從20%調降到5%"},{"start":16040.41,"end":16068.668,"text":"可行性研究及對近5年流用大數據進行研習並分類檢討衍生因素並提出具體做法委員大事保等三領提案第51案要求主計總處按單位預算書內各項費用科技表內資格式區分工作計畫第1、2級用途別科目原預算數、流入數、流出數、流用後預算數、決算數、流用比例及預期效益說明並列前1年度預算數、決算數之各項費用流用"},{"start":16069.788,"end":16086.577,"text":"統計分析表如有這樣同時公布統計分析表並提出具體作法委員賴思寶等三項提案。第五三案請主計總處針對督導查核地方預算執行缺失情形研議有效補救辦法並提出書面報告委員林德福等三項提案。第五四案"},{"start":16087.037,"end":16110.125,"text":"要求主計總處針對114年度特別收入基金預計短促者提出檢討改編列單位預算會予以裁測之可能性並提出具體做法委員長施保等三領提案第五十五案要求主計總處妥善檢討非營業特種基金的程序辦理加強輔導或辦理退場疑慮政府財政健全並提出疏分報告委員羅兵才等三領提案第五十六案"},{"start":16111.565,"end":16127.516,"text":"請主計總處針對相關非營業特種基金預算執行情況概況提出書面報告為林鄭月娥等三案提案。第五期案基金於111至114年度受撥補收入多層增長趨勢,恐影響排擠政府其他重要施政計畫"},{"start":16128.997,"end":16152.732,"text":"請主計總處說明理由及因應政策並提出書面報告委員林德甫等三人提案。第五十八案請行政院主計總處針對我國中等薪資者薪資成長率過低之原因分析及相比鄰國我國員工薪資報酬佔國內生產毛額之比率為何較低提出書面報告委員王思堅等三人提案。第五十九案中央政府總預算案與附屬單位預算及其中計表至115年度"},{"start":16155.093,"end":16172.331,"text":"總預算期：主計總處應以提供電子檔為原則：並上傳立法院預決算知識庫網頁、委員李昆城等三案提案。第六十案：要求主計總處提出節能用電計劃：並提出出面報告：委員李昆城等三案提案。審計部預算提案、公關事事案。"},{"start":16173.581,"end":16201.492,"text":"第一案一般行政凍結10%委員陳玉珍等三人提案第二案基本行政工作維持減略300萬元委員郭國文等三人提案第三案基本行政工作維持向下物品凍結1%委員大會員等三人提案第四案基本行政工作維持向下一般事務費減略90萬元委員大事保等三人提案第五案辦公事務設備汰亂及辦公廳設整修減略500萬元委員郭國文等三人提案第十六案"},{"start":16202.652,"end":16220.261,"text":"辦公室設備開放及辦公廳設整修向下防護建築及設備費減列100萬元委員賴世保等三案提案。第七案中央政府審計減列50萬元委員陳玉珍等三案提案。第八案中央政府審計工作向下資訊服務費減列90萬元委員賴世保等三案提案。第九案"},{"start":16221.181,"end":16240.974,"text":"中央政府審計工作向下資訊服務費凍結10%委員吳立華等3人提案第10案中央政府審計工作向下委辦費減約75萬元委員郭國文等3人提案第11案中央政府審計工作向下國內組織會費凍結2萬元委員黃珊珊等3人提案第12案中央政府審計工作向下國內"},{"start":16242.574,"end":16263.972,"text":"旅費凍結15%、委員延寬等三案提案。第十三案,中央政府審計工作向下國外旅費減略50萬元、委員郭國榮等三案提案。第十四案,縣市地方審計工作凍結10%、委員吳立華等三案提案。第十五案,縣市地方審計工作向下國內旅費凍結15%、委員袁寬恆等三案提案。"},{"start":16264.973,"end":16290.055,"text":"主決議第16案請審計部針對運用電腦軟體輔助查核系統精進作為提出書面報告委員袁匡衡等三人提案第17案請審計部針對智能審計發展方案精進作為提出書面報告委員袁匡衡等三人提案第18案請審計部就審計決算報告之內容數位化與便利大眾檢索之UI、UX改善檢討提出書面報告委員黃雙雙等三人提案第19案請審計部"},{"start":16291.957,"end":16308.952,"text":"就檢討審計部所屬需辦理特殊材料之職務提出疏問報告,為黃昌昌等三人提案第二十案,請審計部將最新一期政府審計計竿及即時以電子化方式出刊公"},{"start":16310.974,"end":16335.739,"text":"公務機關及公眾免費月欄之可行性提出書面報告委員黃珊珊等三項提案第二十一案請審計部就全國公務機關霸凌處置缺失及法規疏漏進行專案審計並提出書面報告委員黃珊珊等三項提案第二十二案要求審計部於每年提出決算報告後一個月內提出縣市政府非法定福利預算之書面報告委員呂坑成等三項提案第二十三案審計部落實政府推動數位轉型"},{"start":16337.119,"end":16349.55,"text":"但相關實施成果應由全民監督,要求審計部提出書面報告委員李坤澄等三項提案第二四案,要求審計部提出節能用電計畫書面報告委員李坤澄等三項提案宣讀完畢好,謝謝謝謝,那宣讀完畢後,預計我們是在13點15分進行協商"},{"start":17188.803,"end":17189.043,"text":"主計人員請移動"},{"start":17218.476,"end":17241.102,"text":"好,我們針對114年度中央政府總預算案那個委員提案的一個目柱我們先從這個行政院主計總處60案那60案這個提案60案我們從第一案開始第一案是李燕秀委員是減略500萬那請主計處說明"},{"start":17248.231,"end":17248.892,"text":"有簽字嗎?有簽字嗎?"},{"start":17262.985,"end":17288.299,"text":"來拿著麥克風講好不好李燕秀委員的辦公室有口頭同意我們改成10%凍結然後加書面報告解凍因為你沒有簽字然後李燕秀委員本人也不在10%凍結是500萬的10%還是總數的10%一般行政的10%那這樣他變成要給你凍結九千多萬欸你們要這樣嗎是啊變九千多萬欸"},{"start":17292.802,"end":17314.189,"text":"各處人事會之外的洞穴石盤我不知道你們溝通的內容是什麼,可不可以講清楚一點好,來,這個第一案我們好,這個這個是一般行政喔"},{"start":17317.056,"end":17332.424,"text":"要不要一、二、三、四一起談?因為我們三、三、五、五、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":17337.841,"end":17351.698,"text":"第一案、第二案都在一般行政之下,那我們是不是併33委員的第三案,那我們一併討論好不好?"},{"start":17354.761,"end":17373.576,"text":"那那個第三案我們已經那個深山委員的提案齁已經改凍結10%啦齁那就是第一案、第二案、第三案我們都凍結10%好不好併案喔併案處理喔第一案第一案、第二案、第三案齁那我們就是"},{"start":17376.482,"end":17404.431,"text":"一般行政扣除人事會改動10%好那還要再加速唸好不好那以第三案為主喔第三案文字有修正有有有以第三案為主來修正成我報告一下委員他不知道我唸一下好了來拿麥克風要唸的話拿麥克風"},{"start":17407.588,"end":17435.407,"text":"好 那就是我們進入到第4案那個黃珊珊委員提案凍結400萬好 來那個秉瑞委員剛剛黃委員同意的這個裡面他是指一般行政向下的10%捏他沒有講扣除人事費捏你那個文字上面是不是要加進去這個好"},{"start":17439.081,"end":17446.932,"text":"對有我是說他現在的書面上面沒有寫要扣除人事費啊好那你們是不是要加進去要加在哪裡來那個主計主計總處說明一下"},{"start":17457.779,"end":17478.973,"text":"就是用一般行政扣除人事費以外凍結百分之十原凍結該項預算除人事金費外之百分之十除人事外百分之十最後面凍結該項預算扣除人事費的預算後10%"},{"start":17489.341,"end":17504.882,"text":"原凍結該項預算,人事經費外資10%,家人事經費外5%來,我再唸一次,就是嚴扣除"},{"start":17506.636,"end":17516.438,"text":"原扣除人事經費外預算10%原凍結該項預算人事經費外資10%人事經費外預算後面在座委員有沒有其他的意見第二個提案"},{"start":17534.236,"end":17545.261,"text":"因為李燕秀的提案第一、第二跟第三個黃珊珊的提案是都是人事經費都是這個一般行政向下所以三個案把它併在一起了OK啦"},{"start":17548.717,"end":17571.037,"text":"好那這樣子的話我們進入到第4案黃珊珊委員那個提案的那就是凍結400萬請問珊珊委員有沒有意見我們還是希望能夠凍結因為這個是人事總處要求主計總處要改善的所以凍結400萬其他提報告"},{"start":17572.332,"end":17580.554,"text":"審計部臺北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市"},{"start":17598.317,"end":17618.364,"text":"委員有沒有意見?來,司法委員,併案併案了,他們已經同意進50萬了齁對,但是那個修正文字就是不解那個通訊會就是在一般行政象下修50萬,然後那個科目自行調整好,那你就是科目自行調整第5案、第6案科目自行調整好不好?"},{"start":17624.775,"end":17650.089,"text":"本席在這裡宣告第5、第6案基本行政工作維持減劣50萬客戶自行調整進入到第7案第7案是王世堅委員提案那是不是王世堅委員要不要說明一下"},{"start":17652.727,"end":17665.787,"text":"好,來,請說啊NRA主計處有商量以後我講說是不是改凍結那等待他們提出參加OECD的成效之後來解凍是,來,那個"},{"start":17667.062,"end":17681.549,"text":"就是全組進出說明他說他們要去參加OECD這是我們明年要去OECD參加會議的一個報告那是不是可以就是像委員講的我們回國之後趕快盡快把報告送到委員會這邊來"},{"start":17684.011,"end":17684.711,"text":"改動22萬加速面報告第8案"},{"start":17702.714,"end":17731.078,"text":"第8案就是我們那個黃珊珊委員提案已經從1個月改3個月改成3個月珊珊委員有沒有要說明好沒有3個月可以他就是還是病棟好那修正通過那第9案第9案就是檢閱那是中央總預算案那個合編跟執行那這個是陳一貞委員提案那我們就"},{"start":17734.041,"end":17752.076,"text":"這個陳玉珍委員他是要求我們給他書面說明是這樣子而已改組決議我們是建議就是動10%然後提書面報告動10%加書面報告好修正通過第9案修正通過"},{"start":17754.255,"end":17760.797,"text":"進入第10案李燕秀委員第10案動節三分之一主計處請說明"},{"start":17769.26,"end":17773.384,"text":"第10案凍結10%加書面修正通過第11案凍結10%加書面修正通過"},{"start":17796.604,"end":17805.053,"text":"10%加書面請說明一下同一個中央預算編列與執行是不是合併動10%我們提書面報告"},{"start":17814.746,"end":17832.947,"text":"好,來,我在這裡跟各位委員報告一下第9案、10案、11、12到13,這個都是凍結,那個都是凍結第二幕那都,可是這個數字不一樣,凍結的數字不一樣"},{"start":17837.542,"end":17843.895,"text":"那個12案、13案黃珊珊原來她都只有動5%嘛所以你動10%就已經超過她這個提案了"},{"start":17848.297,"end":17875.911,"text":"來那個請問在現場的委員就是我們的那個10、11、12、13凍結第二幕那就是我們凍五趴幾趴是無所謂的啦因為你才報告寫的就我們過去慣例凍結就是十趴啦這樣啦不是差啦報告寫的就好了好加好來然後第12案那個委員有同意我們改三個月第12案的部分"},{"start":17879.569,"end":17890.661,"text":"最後一段的那個3個月內提順便報告就對了好那第12案第12案就是我們改成3個月那就是修正通過然後第13案"},{"start":17900.273,"end":17913.342,"text":"第13案是黃珊珊委員凍結5%加書面有沒有問題凍結是併前面的這幾個案子一氣併凍10%然後都有不同的條件經過書面報告之後凍之啊你如果一案一案談的話就變成一直累加上去來你宣布第11案導致的13案凍結5%"},{"start":17930.026,"end":17956.543,"text":"1個月改3個月以第12案為主好來本席在這裡宣布第9、第10、11、12、13那個凍結5%那1個月改3個月以第12案為主平水師傅講不是啦前面你就已經同意第10%凍10%了嘛前面第9案是沒有我們現在不是這5個案要併案"},{"start":17958.104,"end":17968.096,"text":"對不對五個案併案在這一個項下全部總共只有凍結10%然後都提書面報告之後那你第9話你原來講的10%要改成5%嗎"},{"start":17974.455,"end":17988.646,"text":"參委應該都是動10%然後都要交書面報告然後我的那個12案是要改3個月那其他都是照案的就是供照辦理11、12、13就是併案處理凍結10%一個月改3個月那就是以12案為主這樣有沒有問題各位委員對啦這樣才對"},{"start":17998.837,"end":18017.033,"text":"好 那我們再來進入第14案吳立法委員這個是改動10%吳立法委員已經同意了好 那就修正通過進入到第1515是"},{"start":18021.457,"end":18044.943,"text":"另外另外一位這個是前面那一個那個計畫向下的是不是一樣你現在在講哪一題剛剛第14案的部分因為它是14案就過了啊它是底下的分支一樣是動10%啦好好那第14案有沒有問題"},{"start":18046.892,"end":18074.739,"text":"沒有問題,修正通過來,15、16那個我們併案就是減劣減劣一般事務會然後有50萬那16案減劣5萬這個是大使館委員的提案那第15"},{"start":18077.779,"end":18090.525,"text":"第15跟16併案第15跟16併案提書面報告好嗎?書面報告來提書面報告好,來,這個改組決議可以啦,我沒有去那你規則那個結合文案也不要了就兩個併案就書面報告"},{"start":18103.051,"end":18129.141,"text":"第15跟第16案並案改組決議好不好那就是修正通過然後要提書面以15案為主來進入到第17案17案就是這個是賴思寶委員思寶那個你是不是要表達一下意見因為我就是"},{"start":18132.576,"end":18145.067,"text":"動10%加書面報告好,那就是動10%加書面報告修正通過第17案來進入到第18案那個"},{"start":18148.407,"end":18163.718,"text":"嚴寬衡委員同意動10%加書面修正通過第19案賴思寶委員簡略20萬這個就是委員有同意不簡略用凍結的第19案賴思寶委員同意凍結"},{"start":18174.451,"end":18187.756,"text":"二十萬 欸沒有他凍結凍結多少金額啊凍結二十萬加書面來修正通過凍結二十萬太少了啦凍結五十萬不要啦不要啦對啦對啦二十萬就好我們就三二十萬就好啦"},{"start":18197.18,"end":18206.81,"text":"不要凍結了,剩10萬啦,剩10萬不要凍結我們的預算書啊,我們特種基金才216萬阿妹阿娜,阿妹阿娜凍結,阿妹阿娜凍結凍結20萬是吧,凍結20萬加書面,這樣齁,好,修正通過齁"},{"start":18219.161,"end":18232.195,"text":"第二十案二十跟二十八還有五十七這幾個都是在講特收的公款撥補的問題那我們是不是這三案可以定案就是動5%然後加書面報告"},{"start":18233.592,"end":18236.214,"text":"主決議不要動抄20跟28因為同樣都在講特收的凍結凍結5%"},{"start":18256.351,"end":18259.815,"text":"凍結5%加書面書面報告說得同意的就刪掉了第20案、28案凍結5%加書面以第28案為主"},{"start":18279.459,"end":18299.427,"text":"來進入到第21案21一直到24都是黃珊珊委員的都針對那個國營事業的待遇對對對對那這個部分黃委員有同意就是改成凍結10%加3個月是3個月然後我們是配合財政部好那個珊珊委員齁"},{"start":18304.11,"end":18314.763,"text":"第二十一、二十二、二十三、二十四修正通過進入到第25案"},{"start":18316.445,"end":18331.27,"text":"那個顏寬恆委員25的部分就是動5%然後也是書面然後改成三個月好,第25案動5%然後同樣的向下你這樣子這裡動10%、10%、10%、5%加在一起會超過你可以用的喔"},{"start":18337.072,"end":18347.855,"text":"因為一個不同的體驗是哪一家的啊?沒有哪一家的啊?來,第25案,就是凍結那個5%那加書面,然後兩個月改成三個月內,好不好?提書面"},{"start":18361.57,"end":18372.795,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2"},{"start":18382.233,"end":18397.845,"text":"二十六案二十六併入二十五因為是同樣在講裁測從二十一案到二十六案其實都在同一個象徵總共的預算也才兩百六十六萬阿有這麼多的提案阿就取最大的而已阿"},{"start":18406.057,"end":18423.269,"text":"我建議啦19到26這麼多全部變成離案啦,都10%啦,這樣啦書面報告就激動了好不好感謝委員你們主計審預算不能這樣子,你們同樣向下的你們要併案啊,你們不要求併案,一案一案這樣處理怎麼弄來主計,主計說明"},{"start":18431.274,"end":18432.215,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":18445.827,"end":18452.414,"text":"主席宣告第19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28動10%改書面3個月以21案為主請問在現場的委員有沒有意見?沒有意見就通過"},{"start":18473.747,"end":18480.471,"text":"第29國共委員改動50萬加一個月書面第30案李燕秀委員提案簡略"},{"start":18497.621,"end":18520.248,"text":"檢列就是一百萬是委辦會有跟委員口頭同意就是改檢列五趴然後就是五趴五萬元對謝謝感謝好那我們就是第30案就不予檢列"},{"start":18525.434,"end":18526.516,"text":"國務委員提案改成主決議"},{"start":18532.713,"end":18556.525,"text":"來那個修正通過第32案王世堅委員那請王世堅委員說明主席各位同仁主計處主要的功能就是統計、調查、分析結果他在最重要的CPI指數這個部分長期以來他們的統計、調查、分析都失真跟社會了解感受到的狀況嚴重差異比方說像那個房價"},{"start":18559.987,"end":18582.322,"text":"房價他不列入,他只列房租而房租又是在整個十大項目裡面最重要一項光房租就佔16%而他房租調查的戶數才1350戶人家民間隨便啦,隨便一個統計都上百萬戶內政部送來說包租貸款的也送個30萬戶給他們做參考都沒有,所以主席"},{"start":18582.902,"end":18600.131,"text":"我不浪費大家時間我認為在這個部分我希望說凍結凍結那他們請他們這三個月內提出解決的方案然後要經過我們財委會同意以後使得凍結這我的看法好來那個品綴委員請"},{"start":18603.602,"end":18626.806,"text":"這個調查的這個東西是行之有年你要跟動當然是這個可以討論但是你現在在審查預算的時候他的經費你要這樣子給他洞察、洞知、經過我們報告將來要為他這個事情要專門開一個財政委員會是不是書面然後經過你同意不要一定要專案報告專案報告是要來財政委員會開會沒有專案報告"},{"start":18632.821,"end":18657.693,"text":"沒有你這邊要經過財政委員會同意啊財政委員會同意當然要開會啊那他送給我書面報告書面報告好啦那你就送好不要經過財委好好那我就送我啦我同意再動之那這第32案32案那個改書面改書面報告當行動結束上面是二十下面是三十那個"},{"start":18662.322,"end":18666.15,"text":"下面打錯了,他們打錯了,20%、20%、凍結28%凍結28%加書面改善方案書面給我書面給王世堅委員"},{"start":18675.302,"end":18704.057,"text":"好 那我們修正通過那進入到第33案33案是賴慧妍委員提案的那就是我們凍結18好 遵照辦理照案通過來 34案那個黃珊珊委員提案珊珊我們希望還是一樣凍結然後提她提報告是好"},{"start":18705.444,"end":18718.179,"text":"好 遵照辦理進入到第35萬那個簡略第6幕五百萬那個現場的委員有沒有其他的建議主計"},{"start":18722.162,"end":18748.234,"text":"來那個說明這一案是不是懇請委員就是說第35案跟第36案其實簡略的原因是一樣的就是跟去年比但是因為我們普查是五年一次的進程所以從現在開始其實會一年一年增加而且增幅都會很大這是很正常的事所以應該是要跟五年這個這樣好不好因為我們對主計總處都很客氣啦都沒有刪到什麼錢喔那這個普查也都是"},{"start":18750.575,"end":18750.855,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":18767.927,"end":18768.047,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":18784.295,"end":18797.524,"text":"第三十五跟三十六案簡略國事普查業務100萬科目自行調整進入到第三十七案"},{"start":18802.818,"end":18824.17,"text":"三七三八併入3536本來三七他們同意三四十啦三八同意三二十啦所以很接近了啦三七三八併入併入前面的可以了可以了謝謝委員謝謝委員是好三七三八案併入第35案"},{"start":18828.754,"end":18833.999,"text":"第三十九案李延秀委員提議凍結第六幕已經獲得林委員的同意就是凍結二分之一加書面"},{"start":18846.673,"end":18866.802,"text":"就不是中央報告,是書面報告?對,加書面,是好,那個第39案,改動二分之一,那加書面他不用向委員會提出來?不用,不用,不用,對好,修正通過你給他也要給我們啊"},{"start":18870.011,"end":18876.918,"text":"第40案吳立法委員提出的國家統計資料包含各族群的分析"},{"start":18890.474,"end":18898.617,"text":"來第41、41這個跟41那個陳一貞委員那個檢略第8目500萬報告主席這個我們建議41跟賴氏堡委員的44、45、46、47併案來處理因為討論的都是主計諮詢業務這個科目那因為來41、44、45、46"},{"start":18919.506,"end":18919.726,"text":"五案合併討論"},{"start":18940.537,"end":18954.882,"text":"稅計、會計、資訊管理系統三、三十萬然後統計及行政資訊管理沒關係,那個你項目164項目自行調整沒有沒有沒有,這個都是他們同意的啦好,來,那個第41案44、45、46、47檢列那個主計資訊業務120萬那科目自行調整好不好"},{"start":18969.408,"end":18986.399,"text":"來我們進入到第42案這個是珊珊委員那個提案那珊珊一個月改三個月啦但是我早上質詢的時候主計長答應一個月啊所以改回來吧一個月謝謝好改回來一個月"},{"start":18989.2,"end":19016.36,"text":"報告委員這個報告名稱我昨天有跟委員辦公室有討論說我們報告名稱把它改成強化數位政府效能提升電子化核銷是推動換身及實存方向並說明電子化票實行現況我跟你講你自己做文字修正就好啦你自己做文字修正就好了好那就是第42案一個文字修正好不好好"},{"start":19017.654,"end":19020.796,"text":"動5%進入到第43案第43案併過來併42有沒有溝通請主計說明一下"},{"start":19044.591,"end":19049.153,"text":"主席在這裡宣布第42案、43案併案動5%以42案為主"},{"start":19074.475,"end":19076.496,"text":"一個院內提書面報告第48、49案"},{"start":19086.607,"end":19090.068,"text":"審計部、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處"},{"start":19112.998,"end":19114.24,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":19127.995,"end":19151.27,"text":"今年就一億八千四他對於要增加這些資訊軟體設備費這一些他沒有做一個合理的說明而且事實上很多調查都是在當化妝師等於幫執政政府這樣插冤之謀很不對我們應該調查詳實調查跟民間了解的"},{"start":19152.15,"end":19173.584,"text":"數字要相符合才符合民意這才對所以要不然就是說是不是凍結我簡略改凍結那希望他們提出為什麼這幾年你逐年增加增加這麼多到底你買哪些做哪些你對於哪一些調查你應該頻率增加比方說國庫調查"},{"start":19175.425,"end":19188.689,"text":"過去30年才調查一次啊現在好不容易改成4年調查一次是不是把更應該頻率更高比方說我兩年調查一次那你這樣買這些設備才有意義嘛我建議一下那個那個王委員這個錢"},{"start":19193.631,"end":19194.372,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":19215.863,"end":19240.347,"text":"昨天有跟委員辦公室主任有詳細說明了也有把名系的增減是是是那其實都是一些資安的一些設備的汰換或者是說有一些虛擬主機它其實已經超過7年了必須要更換那這個理由其實昨天都有提供給委員辦公室的主任參考了那也跟派委員的主任講這個錢不是給你們自己用的嗎"},{"start":19241.507,"end":19256.293,"text":"外面廠商把他砍一點大家這麼辛苦就把他砍一點這個東西還好啦我覺得還好因為你已經掙掉這麼多了嘛他要砍千萬不要五百啦,一二五啦好不好一二五啦不要動情的就直接砍250啦250250250250"},{"start":19267.858,"end":19290.632,"text":"好啦我考慮三分鐘你們先繼續進行下面好不好因為他們昨天提的數字有些...兩百五...兩百五拍天啦給我找個三百啦給我找個三百啦三百...三百...好來我宣佈一下主席宣佈啦我確實都有拿那些細目出來他們...他們那個...賣了兩百啦兩百五如果不好聽就兩百嘛"},{"start":19296.496,"end":19299.759,"text":"第48、49、50併案檢列其他設備200萬加科目自行調整"},{"start":19322.881,"end":19350.894,"text":"好來我們進入到第51議案那個主決議這個主決議要議案就再來好51那進入到5252有跟委員辦公室溝通他同意我們修正文字好來修正文字他這個有修正文字你的那個第52修正通過"},{"start":19353.616,"end":19380.122,"text":"這個我這樣子好不好這個我是建議立委的文字盡量不要修正啦除了把你們罵人慘不然盡量不要修正你們的文筆不見得比我們好啊對不對啊今天你們的建請案都是都是SAKURA就很客氣的沒有什麼要求就都是建請的不是嗎來說明一下跟委員報告就是說這一案是要求我們要這樣做然後我們是"},{"start":19381.209,"end":19408.551,"text":"把裡面跟現在有做的跟無法跟規定比較不符合的部分刪掉另外是說要把這個相關付表再附在我們預算書就會增加預算的量我們把這幾個計劃刪除掉而已上說明好第52案那個修正通過來進入到第53案第53案遵照辦理好53案遵照案通過"},{"start":19410.175,"end":19410.518,"text":"進入第54案"},{"start":19413.007,"end":19441.005,"text":"五十四的部分就是三個月送書面報告好 兩個月改三個月加書面那五十五的部分也是在講基金存續是不是就可以拼五十四一案一案來好不好那五十五就是也是兩個月改成三個月等一下 那我把五十四案那個宣布一下那個修正那個"},{"start":19442.526,"end":19462.825,"text":"修正通過三個月改成書面再加書面進入到第55案55就是兩個月改成三個月一樣修正通過56也是一個月改成三個月"},{"start":19467.267,"end":19488.492,"text":"五十七一個月改成三個月五十八沒有問題五十九我們有建議修正文字修正文字資料委員說是不是要現場溝通"},{"start":19498.368,"end":19502.389,"text":"五十九案修正通過進入六十案遵照辦理進入審計部預算提案總共二十四案"},{"start":19515.759,"end":19535.538,"text":"謝謝、謝謝、謝謝、謝謝、謝謝、謝謝、謝謝、謝謝、謝謝、謝謝、謝謝"},{"start":19543.041,"end":19549.308,"text":"第一案陳一貞委員提案人是陳一貞委員改成主決議第二案郭國文委員"},{"start":19565.34,"end":19580.726,"text":"簡略實案科目簡略實案基本行政工作維持科目自行調整報告主席這個案併第4案併第4案委員同意第二案併第4案賴氏堡委員併案"},{"start":19594.07,"end":19594.47,"text":"第3項遵照辦理第5項郭國榮委員"},{"start":19604.022,"end":19605.423,"text":"剪列50萬剪列50剪列50剪列50"},{"start":19630.906,"end":19632.088,"text":"檢列50萬是房屋建築及設計會"},{"start":19649.946,"end":19666.506,"text":"檢略50萬是辦公室設備的淘汰基金、辦公室聽設的整修那你科目自行調整好不好好謝謝來進入到第6案第6案已經併了進入到第7案"},{"start":19670.626,"end":19696.542,"text":"第7案羅明財委員提議改成主決議好,那就修正通過第8案賴斯堡委員提案他簡列10萬加科目自行調整那用中央政府審計工作好,那就是科目自行調整"},{"start":19698.104,"end":19701.829,"text":"來進入到第9案吳立法委員提案的改成組決議"},{"start":19704.229,"end":19728.238,"text":"第10案郭國榮委員凍結50萬文字修正郭委員同意有跟他們溝通過了謝謝委員謝謝第10案修正通過第11案君照辦理黃珊珊委員提案的君照辦理照案通過第12案顏寬恆委員"},{"start":19731.267,"end":19745.315,"text":"因為是國內理會是統三然後所以我們就不宜處理對不宜處理對這個到那個回到那個院會處理第12案國公委員這個也是改成主決議了等一下等一下第13案國公委員來你說明一下"},{"start":19754.301,"end":19773.162,"text":"這個審計部這一次的國外旅費增幅大概17%我知道那個主審之間有一些分工那駐外單位的問題其實老實講聽聞不斷駐外單位的部分比較多的部分當然是外管的部分是外交部第二多的應該是文化部吧第二多是哪個單位"},{"start":19776.305,"end":19802.927,"text":"僑委會外交部跟僑委會嗎?第三個單位是什麼?文化部沒有錯嘛來第四個經濟部經濟部大概有幾個經濟部經濟部都是在重點區域重點區域嗎?大城市嗎?大國家嗎?美國西岸那第五個呢?第五個主要是國防單位就大概約類是這五個單位對部會大概這五個你們這樣子跟主審之間可以分得完嗎?"},{"start":19805.543,"end":19825.357,"text":"主計跟審計之間分工分得完嗎還是抓重點我們自己都是抽查啦抽查就是我們像以外交部跟委員報告來說跟外交部的例子為例外交部他們也有集合會派出去我們盡量不要跟他重點部本會自己也會去我們不要跟他重點可是部本會自己會cover啊"},{"start":19826.898,"end":19850.588,"text":"有時候他們自己會cover你們去財是屬於類似內部的監督行政系統那我們現在最大的困難你看這個額度其實很看起來增加時期看起來很多但是總數其實很少所以為什麼我沒有刪的原因嘛我講白點後來說明我知所謂但是我所有在麻煩把這些外管的問題羅列一份給本席可以所以遵照辦理"},{"start":19852.519,"end":19876.64,"text":"好 謝謝那個第13案那個我們改成主決議那修正通過那我們進入到第14案吳立法委員提案的這案遵照辦理遵照辦理第14案來進入到第15案就是也是國內理會我們就不予處理那我們進入到第16案遵照辦理"},{"start":19878.582,"end":19890.652,"text":"這個也是國內理會所以我們也不處理第16遵照辦理第17遵照辦理第18遵照辦理第19遵照辦理"},{"start":19904.563,"end":19930.513,"text":"二十案 遵照辦理 照案通過第二十一案 委員同意修正文字改成三個月內一個月改三個月修正通過第二十二案 遵照辦理 照案通過第二十三案 遵照辦理 照案通過第二十四案 遵照辦理 照案通過"},{"start":19933.735,"end":19933.875,"text":"臺北市審計局長"},{"start":19957.797,"end":19960.742,"text":"徵詢一下徵詢一下徵詢一下徵詢一下徵詢一下徵詢一下"},{"start":19975.148,"end":19976.889,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20000.384,"end":20001.485,"text":"我就是在等你"},{"start":20022.281,"end":20023.082,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20038.215,"end":20042.179,"text":"請議事人員先讀我們的協商結論"},{"start":20064.653,"end":20088.953,"text":"主計總處部分第一案、第二案、第三案並案一般行政扣除人事經費外凍結10%與第三案為主提書面報告第四案照案通過第五案、第六案並案基本行政工作維持檢列50萬元科目執行調整第七案改凍結22萬元提書面報告"},{"start":20092.247,"end":20101.84,"text":"第8案修正通過一個月改三個月第9案至第13案冰案凍結10%一個月改三個月以第12案為主"},{"start":20108.167,"end":20118.392,"text":"第14案改凍結10%第15案、16案併案改組決議提書面報告以第15案為主第17案改凍結15萬元提書面報告第18案改凍結10%提書面報告第19案至第28案併案凍結10%以第21案為主提書面報告一個月、兩個月、經改為三個月"},{"start":20135.202,"end":20161.55,"text":"第二十九案改凍結五十萬元提書面報告三個月改一個月第三十案不宜檢列第三十一案改組決議第三十二案凍結百分之二十提書面報告第三十三案照案通過第三十四案照案通過第三十五、三十六、三十七、三十八並按檢列國事普查業務一百萬元科目自行調整"},{"start":20164.5,"end":20190.652,"text":"第三十九案凍結二分之一提書面報告第四十案照案通過第四十一、四十四、四十五、四十六、四十七並案檢列主計諮詢業務一百二十萬元科目執行調整第四十二、四十三並案凍結百分之五以第四十二案為主三個月改一個月"},{"start":20192.884,"end":20217.239,"text":"文字修正第48、49、50併案檢略其他設備200萬元科目資金調整第51案照案通過第52案修正通過第53案照案通過第54案修正通過兩個月改三個月提書面報告第55案修正通過兩個月改三個月"},{"start":20219.093,"end":20244.695,"text":"第56案修正通過,一個月改三個月第17案修正通過,一個月改三個月第58案照案通過,第59案修正通過第60案修正通過,跟證照案通過審計部部分第一案改組決議第二案及第四案並按基本行政工作維持簡略10萬元科目自行調整"},{"start":20246.994,"end":20263.674,"text":"第三案照案通過第五案、第六案併案檢列辦公室務設備汰換及辦公廳設整修50萬元科目執行調整第七案改組決議第八案中央政府審計工作檢列10萬元科目執行調整第九案改組決議"},{"start":20265.296,"end":20289.365,"text":"第10案凍結50萬元文字修正第11案照案通過第12案不予處理第13案改組決議第14案照案通過第15案不予處理第16案不予處理第17案照案通過第18案照案通過第19案照案通過第20案"},{"start":20291.696,"end":20297.339,"text":"修正通過1個月21案修正通過1個月改3個月第22案召喚通過23案召喚通過24案召喚通過"},{"start":20316.953,"end":20332.707,"text":"第16案是照案通過有沒有問題請問各位委員對協商的結論有沒有意義沒有意義那我們就通過本次會議做成如下的決議意義報告說明詢答完畢"},{"start":20333.968,"end":20353.583,"text":"二、委員質詢若未及答覆或請補充資訊,請相關部會在一週內以書面答覆。委員另外要求期限者從期鎖定那審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院主計總處審計部、審計部臺北市審計處、審計部新北市、桃園市"},{"start":20361.22,"end":20364.85,"text":"桃園市、臺中市、臺南市、高雄市"},{"start":20366.24,"end":20391.759,"text":"直轄市及縣市政府調整軍公教人員待役的準備跟災害準備金跟第二億倍金的預算案除了照協商結論通過以外其的部分均列照列有關正式別稅出預算隨從以上的機關機關別審查結果調整請問各位委員對以上的決議有沒有意義"},{"start":20392.58,"end":20405.697,"text":"沒有異議那就通過本次會議的議程已經進行完畢若有不在場的委員補題書面執行一併列入記錄、刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理。散會"},{"start":20410.431,"end":20410.611,"text":"主席謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}